&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 27.11.96&#9;NAME: NOMUSA NGWANDI

CASE: TEMBISA

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MS MKHIZE: We thank you and welcome back for the last part of our session today. The first person we will call will be Nomusa Ngwandi. We welcome you, we also see here that you are one of those who lost one of their beloved ones. 

NOMUSA NGWANDI: (sworn states)

MS MKHIZE: Can you tell us who is accompanying you?

MS NGWANDI: It is my neighbour.

MS MKHIZE: We also welcome you neighbour and we appreciate your unity in these times. We will request one of the Commissioners to assist you in giving your evidence and that will be Hugh Lewin.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much for coming and we are very pleased that you could come. Please try and feel relaxed, I know it's not easy. What you are going to tell us about took place not all that long ago in July 1993. You are from Ntombeka Section here in Tembisa. If you could please, in your words and in your own time, tell us about what happened to you and your husband.

MS NGWANDI: In Tembeka where I am staying we had a gang called Toasters in the community, which was harassing the community. After some time they went to stay in Vusimuzi Hostel with Mr Mduze. There at the hostel they collaborated with Inkatha. On 31 July 1993 whilst I was sitting at home in the dining room I heard men talking outside saying wake up men. Because there were patrols at that time, the comrades were patrolling, trying to protect us against the 

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Toasters. It went on, the gunshots and then I became concerned with all these gunshots my husband hasn't arrived back at home from work. He went to work accompanied by his cousin.

&#9;Whilst I was sitting there I heard somebody in the dining room. I heard the windows being broken in the dining room and then I thought it's the Toasters again starting to attack people and stealing their belongings as well. Time went on with all this gunfire going on. Thereafter all windows were being broken down, the kitchen, the bedrooms as well, then I hid next to the wardrobe. Then I tried to open a window to see what is happening outside, then I saw some men who were carrying guns. They were in a Casper. They were shooting relentlessly. 

&#9;It was round about 8:30 when my cousin arrived and I asked him where is my husband? He took some time to tell me. He tried to hide something from me. Then finally he told me that all this gunfire my husband was shot as well. Then he left and he said he's going to cover him up with a blanket.

&#9;Whilst he was away I tried to ask him to accompany me so that we can go and fetch him because he saw him. When he came back round about 11 o'clock he said I must take a wheelbarrow and a blanket so that we must go and fetch my husband. As we tried to go out we saw a Casper passing through another road facing our house. Then I suggested that we should go to this Casper and tell them that we are being attacked here in Ntombeka Section. But before then there were more gunshots and then we went into a nearby house. These men came back and passed by. We sat there until two o'clock in the morning and then we decided to go 

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back home.

&#9;When we got home at 2 o'clock that morning, at 4 o'clock my aunt's child came and told me that my husband had fallen at a new residence area and he told me exactly how it happened. 

&#9;Thereafter I tried to contact the police so that they should be able to help us. But when I phoned they gave me a different number to call, Kempton Park, but Kempton Park they referred me to Rabasotho. We tried further to make a few calls but to find that the phone was engaged until we managed to phone through round about 8 o'clock the following morning. &#9;Thereafter I will tell you what led to this gang being called Toasters.

MR LEWIN: Can you tell us a little bit more about your own search for your husband's body?

MS NGWANDI: I never went the following day to the place of the incident where he was killed. My sister and neighbours went there.

MR LEWIN: Mrs Ngwandi you also mentioned that you have a daughter, one daughter, or do you have more daughters, children?

MS NGWANDI: I have got two children.

MR LEWIN: And what was the effect on them of this incident?

MS NGWANDI: This disturbed them a great deal because their father was the breadwinner, he was doing everything for us. But now at the moment I cannot manage everything because I am unemployed.

MR LEWIN: Could you tell us how old they are the two daughters?

MS NGWANDI: They are 22 and 19 years of age.

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MR LEWIN: So if you would like to tell us because we are trying to build up information about this gang, if you could tell us how you think they were operating and why and how they were made up.

MS NGWANDI: The Toasters are youth from Ntombeka Section. They are very young for the things that they were doing. They decided to go and stay at Vusimuzi Hostel. They decided to call themselves Toasters because there was a child in the community who was a Toaster. They took this child and put him inside hot oil and that's where the name originates from.

MR LEWIN: From the way you talk these were all young people from within the community, does that mean that everybody knew them or knows them still?

MS NGWANDI: Yes everybody knew them.

MR LEWIN: And the move into the hostel, why do you think that took place?

MS NGWANDI: As they were going on they decided to go and join Inkatha, that's why they went to the hostels.

MR LEWIN: Do you think there was any link between that and the police, SAP?

MS NGWANDI: Yes I would say that because they had a relation with the police.

MR LEWIN: Why do you think the police were interested in having this relationship?

MS NGWANDI: It is because whenever these boys were arrested they would be discharged and you wouldn't know how they got that right.

MR LEWIN: So when they came to attack your house they were obviously looking for your husband, they knew who you were and what your husband did as part of the patrol group?

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MS NGWANDI: I think they knew because they knew everything that was happening in Ntombeka, because from every household the men would come and join the patrol. And my husband was one of the patrollers as well.

MR LEWIN: Were you at any stage able to identify any of the people who were responsible for shooting your husband?

MS NGWANDI: I cannot say because my cousin told me a different statement because I wanted to find out from him what happened on that day. He did explain to me what happened that day.

MR LEWIN: Can you tell us what else happened that night? Was your husband the only person who was killed or were other people killed that night?

MS NGWANDI: Many people were killed on that day and my uncle's child was killed as well and he hid on the roof of the house and that's where a couple was killed.

MR LEWIN: Was there any reason for this activity that particular night, why do you think it happened that night only, or was it only that night?

MS NGWANDI: It was the first time it happened that night.

MR LEWIN: Thinking back on it which you must have done, and it's obviously very painful to do so, can you think of any reason why it all happened just that one night?

MS NGWANDI: I don't know.

MR LEWIN: Mrs Ngwandi thank you very much. 

MS MKHIZE: We thank you very much and I will ask the other Commissioners to ask you questions to clarify the issues.

MS SOOKA: Mrs Ngwandi from the information that we have it seems that at least 30 people were killed that night, is that a correct number?

MS NGWANDI: Many people were killed on that day. Towards 

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the BP Garage many people were killed on their way back from work and some were even burnt there.

MS SOOKA: There also were residents who were saying that the police were involved in that attack, do you know anything about that?

MS NGWANDI: It is so.

MS SOOKA: There are allegations that the police transported the attackers into the open veld that separated the various sections, do you know anything about that?

MS NGWANDI: Yes I know something about that.

MS SOOKA: Do you want to tell us?

MS NGWANDI: On this day of the 31st of July it was 6:30, my uncle's child says she saw the Caspers dropping off people at the BP Garage and she decided to run away. She thought that it was members of the ZCC congregation but realised that there is something strange about them and hid on top of the roof.

MS SOOKA: What did she see then?

MS NGWANDI: She saw these people who were shooting people and even in the yard, in our yard, when they came in and they killed the servant there and the husband.

MS SOOKA: There are also allegations that when the attacks stopped that these people were picked up by the Caspers as well, has that been confirmed by people you know?

MS NGWANDI: Can you repeat your question?

MS SOOKA: From the information we have people are also alleging that when the attackers went back after the attack that the Caspers pick them up to take them back to where they had come from.

MS NGWANDI: I would not confirm that because on that day there were many Caspers in the Township.

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MS SOOKA: And were the policemen from the Caspers, were

they intervening to separate the attackers from the residents or were they participating in what was happening or did they simply stand by and let people be killed? Who were they helping?

MS NGWANDI: The policemen were helping those people in the Township.

MS SOOKA: So they were saving them from the attack?

MS NGWANDI: I say the policemen were working hand-in-hand with these people who were shooting randomly in the Township.

MS SOOKA: I see. There was also an allegation that the attackers were shouting "bulala, bulala", is that correct, did you hear that?

MS NGWANDI: No, in my statement I said that since there was this patrolling the comrades were saying wake up men, wake up men, and they said that you must wake up so that you must join the patrol, that's what the comrades meant.

MS SOOKA: You also said in your statement that you were attacked when you tried to find your husband's body, do you want to tell me a little more about that?

MS NGWANDI: As I have said earlier on that after the shooting I thought that it was quiet, I asked our cousin to take a wheelbarrow and I will take a blanket and we will go and fetch my husband where he saw the place where he was shot and then we saw a Casper brightening our house and then I suggested that we should go to this Casper and tell them that we are being attacked at Ntombeka. But before we got that there were gunshots and we left everything there, the wheelbarrow and the blanket and we hid in a house that a caravan outside and that's when these men passed by and they TEMBISA HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

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were looking for us, but they never found us. We only managed to go back home at 2 o'clock because we could not go out.

MS SOOKA: Mrs Ngwandi I did say earlier on that there are some members of the Toasters Gang that are going to apply for amnesty, how do you feel about what would happen if they were to live with you in the community?

MS NGWANDI: I would forgive them because there is peace now.

MS SOOKA: Thank you very much.

MS SEROKE: Nomusa you said that your brother-in-law was in the company of your husband, they were out from work, can you tell us exactly as to how he described the incident to you?

MS NGWANDI: He told me that when they alighted at the BP Garage they heard the gun sounds, and these were unusual sounds and they suspected those were the young children who were patrolling the place. And he said he's going to tell them he's not going to join the patrol today because he is tired. They proceeded home. When they were about to reach the new houses that were built next to Ntombeka they went through these men and he told them that he won't be patrolling that day because he was tired, he was from work. My cousin said he joined the people because they were singing Usuthu, Usuthu slogans. These people who asked them were not comrades. In order to save his life he joined them and continued the activities of breaking other people's houses until later they discovered that the men from work is back. 

MS SEROKE: You can take your time and drink some water.

MS NGWANDI: That's what he told me when he arrived at 

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home.

MS SEROKE: In other words they joined these men who were attacking because they thought they were the patrollers?

MS NGWANDI: Yes that's true.

MS SEROKE: And they heard them sing Usuthu, Usuthu?

MS NGWANDI: Yes my husband heard them saying Usuthu.

MS SEROKE: And that's when they discovered this was the wrong gang?

MS NGWANDI: Yes that is true.

MS SEROKE: After your husband told them that he can't patrol it's now that he was one of the patrollers?

MS NGWANDI: That's correct.

MS SEROKE: That's how they killed him?

MS NGWANDI: Yes.

MS SEROKE: Did your cousin explain as to how he was killed?

MS NGWANDI: Yes he did explain. I only discovered when they brought his clothes home, on the front side, on the chest side the clothes were torn and it shows there was a wound on the right side, and his pockets were turned inside-out, which shows as if he has been robbed.

MS SEROKE: Can you tell us more about the name Usuthu?

MS NGWANDI: This is normally a slogan from the Zulu people.

MS SEROKE: Maybe I can ask you a question, this cousin of yours how did he survive or escape the incident?

MS NGWANDI: He told me that he joined them and started to sing their slogans and also get involved in the breaking of the windows of other people's houses.

MS SEROKE: From what you heard your husband refused to do what they asked him to do?

MS NGWANDI: No.

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MS SEROKE: I also, as you know that as a Commission we are here to listen and also to see what can be done to help people like you. As a person who has made a statement what is it that you wish can be done that would satisfy you?

MS NGWANDI: Can you repeat the question?

MS SEROKE: (tape ends....).... to help people who have been harassed or who have suffered the consequences and yourself as you have given a statement, what is it that you wish?

MS NGWANDI: The thing that can make me to reconcile is that I would like to see the people, the perpetrators to come before and be identified and known.

MS SEROKE: Thank you very much. Yours is a painful story and you are one of the people who can be taken as an example of the women who have suffered after having lost their husband or men without a reason. We would also like to thank you, your spirit to say that they are gone but they have opened us a way to live in peace today. One of the things that you say, you said you would like to see the perpetrators come before the people and explain. It is also a wish that the people like them come before us, work together with us. As you know people reconcile and get to rest if they know exactly what happened. We also invite all of them, especially the perpetrators to stand up, come up and explain everything as to what happened, and this is what we think can bring peace within the community. Thank you.

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