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DATE:&#9;11TH MAY 2000
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 DATE:&#9;11TH MAY 2000

NAME:&#9;JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI

APPLICATION NO: AM474/96

DAY:&#9;&#9;3

---------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: For the record, it is Thursday the 11th of May 2000. It is the continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee at Middelburg. The Panel is constituted as would appear from the record of the proceedings thus far. We will hear the following applications this morning: that of July Mabhoko Mtsweni, amnesty reference AM474/96, Speelman Ernest Mtsweni, amnesty reference AM4300/96, Johannes Jabulani Mahlangu, amnesty reference AM7461/97, Phillip Mfulatwelwa Mtsweni, amnesty reference, AM313/96 and Charles Michael Skosana, amnesty reference, AM650/96.

&#9;I am going to first get the legal representatives to put themselves on record, on behalf of the applicants.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson, my name is Tony Richard, I represent all five applicants listed a moment ago. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. On behalf of the interested parties, the victims?

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Chairperson, Frank Mokoena on behalf of the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokoena. And then the leader of evidence?

MS MTANGA: I am Luluma Mtanga, the Evidence Leader, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: I am ready to proceed and I call July Mabhoko Mtsweni who is prepared to take the oath.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mtsweni, please stand to take the oath. You are July Mabhoko Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: That is correct.

JULY MABHOKO MTSWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Richard?

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mtsweni, the incident to which your application for amnesty happened during January 1991. At that stage were you a member or a supporter of any political party?

MR MTSWENI: Yes I was a member or a supporter of a political organisation.

MR RICHARD: Which one was it?

MR MTSWENI: I was the supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: When you use the word "supporter", how did you show your support for the ANC?

MR MTSWENI: Everything we did, was for our organisation and we had leaders in the organisation. We were given instructions to do certain things.

INTERPRETER: Pardon Mr Chairperson, there seems to be a problem with the receiver.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, in fact I gathered that there must be something going on, because the two of you are speaking together, at the same time. Could somebody just attend to that, just attend to the Interpreters, just see what the problem is. Will you indicate when it is sorted out?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, it seems that he will deliver his evidence in Zulu, not Sotho. Yes, it is Zulu, channel 4 and Sotho, channel 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Would you be able to handle that, Interpreters?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, very well. Sorry Mr Richard, we seem to have settled this question. Would you proceed?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. My last question was you say you were a supporter of the African National Congress, my question was how did you show your support for this organisation and what did you do in support of it?

MR MTSWENI: We had leaders in the ANC organisation and we were followers. We used to receive instructions from these leaders of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Who were your leaders in your situation?

MR MTSWENI: The first one was Skosh and Skosh is his nickname, his real name is Jan Nkabinde.

MR RICHARD: Were there any others?

MR MTSWENI: The other one was Scwadi Sibego.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Did you participate in any protests, marches, boycotts, similar activities?

MR MTSWENI: I used to attend meetings whenever I was at home, because I used to stay at work where I was working, so I wasn't all the time at home.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, in your application for amnesty at page 2 of the bundle, you claim amnesty for the killing of Emma Mtsweni. What relationship was there if any, between you and Emma Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: She was one of my family relatives. She was an old lady.

MR RICHARD: In what way was she related to your father or your mother?

MR MTSWENI: She was my distant grandmother. She wasn't my blood grandmother. It is because of the surnames, I am not sure as how related we are, but I do know that we are related.

MR RICHARD: Now at page 2 of the bundle, paragraph 4 there is a question which asks you to provide the nature and particulars and the first sentence, to read it out the translation that you wrote was -

&#9;&#9;"... this was a family discussion and it was upon my grandma".

&#9;Would you please tell us what the discussion was about and what you meant by that?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: At page 2 of the bundle, which is the second page of your application for amnesty, where you filled in the form to provide nature and particulars of the act for which you are applying for amnesty, you started by saying and I quote -

&#9;&#9;"... this was a family discussion and it was upon my grandmother."

&#9;Now, my question is, what was the discussion about concerning your grandmother?

MR MTSWENI: I will explain it this way. My father and my mother passed away. After they deceased, my grandmother came at home and she said to us we allegedly accused her of killing our parents and we asked her who told her that and she said to us we knew who we told. We told her that we know nothing of that. She left. After a day we received a letter that came from a chief.

MR RICHARD: Just stop there. Let me just get clarity, am I correct in understanding your answer to be that Emma Mtsweni came to your home and confronted you with the statement that you had made allegations that she had caused the death of your parents? She confronted you with that allegation, is that what I understand, correctly?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, that is correct. It was Emma.

MR RICHARD: And then your reply was you knew nothing about what she was talking about and you asked her from whom had she heard that report or that allegation, am I right?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: And then you were telling us the next day you received a letter from a chief. What was that chief's name?

MR MTSWENI: We received a letter from Mabhogo, the name of the chief is Mabhogo.

MR RICHARD: Thank you and what did that letter ask or tell you to do?

MR MTSWENI: They told us to come before the chief.

MR RICHARD: Did it give you a date and a time and a place that you had to come before the chief?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, there was a date on that letter, even though I cannot remember, but there was a date and it was on that letter, and we did go on that particular date to the chief.

MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, for which area is this chief Mabhogo you are referring to, where is his kraal?

MR MTSWENI: kwaNdebele. There was another chief who reported to the other chief, in other words the one was junior and we went to the senior one in Mabhogo in Kameelrivier.

MR RICHARD: For the sake of clarity I will ask the following, all that we described that happened in your application, happened near and at a place called Pieterskraal, where is Pieterskraal?

MR MTSWENI: It is an area where I was residing.

MR RICHARD: What is the nearest major centre to Pieterskraal?

MR MTSWENI: The nearby city or town I think it is Pretoria or Groblersdal.

MR RICHARD: How far from Groblersdal is Pieterskraal?

MR MTSWENI: I am not sure of the two distances, but I think Groblersdal is nearer than Pretoria.

MR RICHARD: Is Pieterskraal a rural area?

MR MTSWENI: No, it is not a town, it is a rural area.

MR RICHARD: And is it an area where you still have Traditional Leaders, chiefs and sub-chiefs?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, during my arrest it was like that, but I have been in prison since 1992. When I left it was like that, I don't know, because there have been changes, probably it is no longer the same. I wouldn't say it is still like that, because the government has changed. It may probably have changed, but this is how I left it.

MR RICHARD: Now, who was the senior chief in that area at the time?

MR MTSWENI: Mabhogo.

MR RICHARD: And now is it not from him that you received this summons or letter asking you to appear before him?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, the first letter we received, it was from him.

MR RICHARD: Did you go to the meeting, and if so, who else was at the meeting?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, we did go to the meeting. It was myself and my sister.

MR RICHARD: Your sister's name is?

MR MTSWENI: Anna.

MR RICHARD: Now ...

MR MTSWENI: And my brother as well was present, Kleinboy Mtsweni.

MR RICHARD: And who else if any?

MR MTSWENI: There was Mtsweni families, uncles and also the deceased was present, together with her children.

MR RICHARD: What are her children's names?

MR MTSWENI: The one that I remember very well is Makololo and one Leah and the other daughters, but I don't remember their names.

MR RICHARD: Sarah, does that ...

MR MTSWENI: Yes, and Sarah as well.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did the chief explain to you as to why he called you to the meeting?

MR MTSWENI: He did explain to us that he had called us because we had accused my grandmother that she was bewitched and we did ask the chief as to who told my grandmother and my grandmother didn't have an answer to that question.

&#9;They requested her to tell them who had told her, and she refused and then the chief decided that we should go back and discuss this as a family. We left, we went back home. As we were leaving, it was said that we were supposed to meet and it was decided that we were going to meet at Mashiane, who was a junior chief in the area.

MR RICHARD: Now, this meeting with Mr Mashiane, was that the meeting where you were supposed to discuss the problems as a family or was there another meeting as well?

MR MTSWENI: It was a meeting where we were supposed to discuss the very same problem which we went to see the senior chief.

MR RICHARD: Now, tell me, when you met with chief Mashiane, what happened there?

MR MTSWENI: We met at chief Mashiane's kraal, it was discussed but no solution came forth. Eventually we were told that we were supposed to go and see a ngaka or a sangoma and the name of that sangoma is Makuduza.

MR RICHARD: Why did you need to go and see a sangoma?

MR MTSWENI: The way it was discussed, it was concluded that probably the sangoma will help us resolve this, he will help us to clarify this matter.

MR RICHARD: Would the sangoma have been asked the question as to whether Ms Emma Mtsweni or not, was a moloi or whether he could identify who was making the allegation against Mrs Emma Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: I will phrase it differently, would the sangoma be asked the question is Emma Mtsweni a witch or would he be asked the question who is accusing Emma Mtsweni of being a witch?

MR MTSWENI: We went there to find out who was accusing Emma of being a witch.

MR RICHARD: Now when you went to see this (indistinct), this sangoma, did Emma go with you?

MR MTSWENI: We had agreed upon a certain date to go and see the sangoma. Before the date, two of her children came, I don't remember whether it was Leah or Sarah and (indistinct). They came to my home, they found my sister, Selina Mtsweni and they said to her "we had decided to take them to our own sangoma" and they had decided not to go there, but they will do, they will go to Kwaggafontein, another area in kwaNdebele and they will look for comrades and they will bring them back in order for them to burn down our house or our home.

MR RICHARD: If I understood you correctly, these two women, Emma's children, told you in essence that they wouldn't go to your sangoma, but they intended going to comrades at Kwaggafontein who would then come and burn down your house, is that correct?

MR MTSWENI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now the next thing is I believe your sister Selina did something, what is it that she did? Did she report the matter to you or ...

MR MTSWENI: If I remember very well, Selina told us, but before she told us, she went and saw the leaders of that area, Scwadi and Skosh. She told them that they mustn't be surprised if they found out that our house had been burnt down, because there were people who came to her and told her that they were going to go to Kwagga and fetch comrades to come and burn the house. She said if something like that could happen, they must know who were responsible.

MR RICHARD: Now, do you know what Scwadi and Skosh did in response to that? What did your leaders do in response to Emma's children's report to them?

MR MTSWENI: Skosh and Scwadi called on a meeting after she had told them everything, they called a meeting and they also fetched my grandmother's kids, Magololo and a certain date was set upon which we were going to go to the sangoma. When that day arrived, we were called again to another meeting. On that day I didn't have transportation. A man by the name of Mabona was called, he was owning a kombi. We boarded the kombi, my grandmother was also present and I think Magololo as well. We went to see Makuduza, the sangoma. 

&#9;When we arrived I think we arrived there at about seven, or between seven and eight. When we arrived, we got in there. Makuduza is the one person, one sangoma that works according to appointments. We had to go back and we had to make an appointment with him. We agreed on coming back on another date.

&#9;When that day arrived, a meeting was called in a school. We gathered there in that school. My grandmother and her children didn't show up. On that day I was driving my uncle's bakkie. 

MR RICHARD: Do you remember what day of the year this was, this last meeting at the school?

MR MTSWENI: If I remember quite well, I think it was on the 2nd of January 1991.

MR RICHARD: Were Emma Mtsweni and her daughters supposed to be at that meeting?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, because it was the day we agreed upon that we were going to go back to the sangoma.

MR RICHARD: Where had they gone instead of keeping their arrangements?

MR MTSWENI: We held the meeting and after the meeting, we proceeded to my grandmother's house. When we arrived there, we found Sarah and Leah. We asked them about their mother and they said to us she had run away. We asked them as to where she had gone to, they said she went to Vaalbank to see her brother.

&#9;We took both of them because we wanted them to go and show us where their mother was. They boarded Phillip's van or bakkie, since I was also driving another van and Phillip was also driving another one. 

MR RICHARD: On your way, my first question is did Sarah and Leah get into the bakkie voluntarily?

MR MTSWENI: If I remember, I think they were forced, it wasn't voluntarily.

MR RICHARD: At the meeting at the school, how many people were present?

MR MTSWENI: At that meeting at the school, I think it was approximately between 200 and 300 people.

MR RICHARD: At that meeting, those people, 200 or 300 in number, were they told that Emma Mtsweni had no revealed the source of the allegation against her, that she was a moloi and that she had not kept her appointments?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard, maybe you can put the question in this way so that one can get a clear picture of what happened.

MR RICHARD: I will rephrase. There were 200 or 300 people at this meeting at the school, did anyone address the people and tell them what was happening?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, there was.

MR RICHARD: Who did that?

MR MTSWENI: Skosh.

MR RICHARD: Did Skosh report to that meeting that Emma Mtsweni should have been at that meeting?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, he did say so.

MR RICHARD: Did he report to the 200 or 300 people that she hadn't kept other arrangements?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question, I don't quite understand.

MR RICHARD: My question is very simple, but I don't want to put a leading question to you. Did Skosh report to that meeting that Emma Mtsweni was asked to reveal the name of the person who had told her that you were spreading rumours that she was a witch, and that she hadn't been willing to answer the question?

MR MTSWENI: Yes. He did tell everyone in that meeting that Emma was supposed to have revealed the name of the person who said she was a witch, but she didn't.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, maybe you will be asking a question on something else, can I just ask a question relating to this Mr Richard? Just tell us everything that was said by Skosh to this crowd of people.

MR MTSWENI: We held two meetings, I don't know which meeting you are referring to. Would you please clarify to me which meeting, so that I will be able to answer your question?

ADV SANDI: The meeting at the school, the meeting at the school where you say Skosh addressed the crowd, what did he say to these people?

MR MTSWENI: Skosh told the people who had gathered in that meeting that Anna was supposed to be in that meeting, because she was supposed to accompany us to the sangoma and now we were supposed to go to her house in order to find out why she didn't show up.

MR RICHARD: May I interject at that point. Who was supposed to be at that meeting, but didn't pitch up? I might have misunderstood the Interpreter? 

MR MTSWENI: Anna and her children.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, carry on.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe, who is Anna? You are saying Anna, who is Anna?

MR MTSWENI: I am actually referring to Emma, I am making a mistake.

MR RICHARD: Yes, carry on. What else was said at the meeting, to the crowd?

MR MTSWENI: It was said that Emma Mtsweni was supposed to show up at that meeting and she was supposed to accompany us to the sangoma and she wasn't there. This is what our Chairman told us.

MR RICHARD: Now, what conclusion did the crowd come to from the information that it received?

MR MTSWENI: It was concluded that we were supposed to fetch her in her house, or from her house.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just explain to me, whose suggestion was this that Emma should be fetched from her house?

MR MTSWENI: Skosh said so.

ADV SANDI: Did the crowd make any contribution by way of discussing the issue before it was concluded that Emma should be fetched from her house?

MR RICHARD: If I do remember, I think it was just his suggestion, because most people there relied on him, because he was the one who had information.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. From that meeting, did you go to Emma's house in Pieterskraal?

MR MTSWENI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We had reached the stage where the two daughters were forced into the second van, and I assume you are on your way to Vaalbank. Take it from there, don't repeat what you had said.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. On the way to Vaalbank, according to what I am told, you stopped. Where did you stop?

MR MTSWENI: When we left Emma's house, we boarded the two bakkies, we left for Waterval, we arrived at a certain filling station. 

MR RICHARD: What did you do at the filling station?

MR MTSWENI: We filled in the bakkie which I was driving and also in Phillip's bakkie. We also filled in a five litre with petrol.

MR RICHARD: If you filled your bakkie with petrol, why did you need to fill a five litre can with petrol as well?

MR MTSWENI: The reason I filled the five litre container with petrol, it was because I had decided that I was going to burn my grandmother, using that petrol, because at that stage I was angry.

MR RICHARD: Why had you come to that conclusion and why were you angry?

MR MTSWENI: I was angry because it hadn't been a long time since I had lost my parents, and there she was accusing us that we had accused her of being a witch, and after she had run away, it gave me the impression that she had more knowledge on this.

MR RICHARD: Now, from Waterval, the garage where you filled your bakkie and bought the petrol, where did you go next, to Vaalbank or back to the village?

MR MTSWENI: When we left Waterval, we went to Vaalbank.

MR RICHARD: And there, what happened?

MR MTSWENI: We arrived to the house where my grandmother had fled to.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry to intervene, just tell the story. Just say what happened, whether you went back home and so on, just tell us the whole story, carry on.

MR MTSWENI: We arrived at the house where my grandmother had fled to, the two bakkies stopped at the gate, the one that I was driving and the one that Phillip was driving. When we stopped, then we alighted the bakkie, the people who were in the back and the people who were in the front. We entered the yard where my grandmother was.

&#9;We found the man who was the owner of the house. We told this man that we were looking for Emma Mtsweni, our grandmother and he said that she wasn't there. There was one Victor Ntuli who kicked the door open. My grandmother was in that house or in that room, and my other brothers got inside and took her forcefully.

&#9;They took her to the bakkie, at the back of the bakkie and they also boarded the bakkie. Others were at the back and others were in the front. I also boarded the van and we started the cars. We drove back. We drove back to Pieterskraal.

MR RICHARD: What happened at Pieterskraal?

MR MTSWENI: When we arrived at Pieterskraal, we stopped in the school where we found other people whom we had left there. They all came back to the school. I said to them - we had passed the Police station and the house where we fetched the grandmother is also near a Police station, and I said to them "it may happen that the Police will get the information and follow us". That is when we decided to move from the school into the mountain or the hill.

MR RICHARD: Before you go to the mountain or hill or the bush, how many people were at the school?

MR MTSWENI: I think there were approximately 200 to 300 people who came back there.

MR RICHARD: At the school, was there any discussion between either you, your leaders, members of the crowd and Emma Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, there was a short discussion.

MR RICHARD: What was ...

MR MTSWENI: That is where Emma was asked as to why she had fled and she said that she was scared that they were going to burn her, and she was asked as to why would she be burnt and she said what she had done, she didn't do it alone. That is when we decided to go to the mountain or forest because we wanted to get more information and also we were scared that we had passed through a Police station and also the house where we took Emma, is near a Police station. Therefore we thought that Police may follow us, we decided to go to the mountain.

&#9;When we arrived in the mountain, we took her out and other people got inside the bakkie. Some of them were running and chanting and they were chanting songs, toyi-toying and saying (indistinct).

MR RICHARD: What does that mean?

MR MTSWENI: It means if you don't come out with the truth, you will be necklaced.

MR RICHARD: Carry on.

MR MTSWENI: While we were in the mountain, others alighted the bakkies and also she was removed from the bakkie. She was questioned as to who else was involved in this witchcraft, and she said there was a certain man by the name of Mahlangu and he was also involved. Other comrades left the place, the mountain and went to fetch Mahlangu and his son was also present.

&#9;I said to Phillip Mtsweni that since we had passed the Police station, it might happen that Police would follow us and find us there and we will have a problem to run away because we have cars. I decided that we should drive these two bakkies back home. I got inside.

MR RICHARD: Stop there. There were two bakkies, you got into the one bakkie, who got into the other bakkie?

MR MTSWENI: I got inside the one, I was driving, and Phillip Mtsweni also got inside the one that he was driving. In the one that I was driving, there was a five litre container with two to three litres petrol. I took this five litre container and gave it to Victor Ntuli.

&#9;Then we told them that we were going to drop the bakkies at home and we were going to come back, because there was another group which went to fetch Mahlangu and we told them that we were going to come back to the mountain. When we arrived at home, as we were approaching in the main road, the two bakkies, Police van and as we were driving towards home, the Police vans followed us and they also entered our gate at home, with us.

&#9;I got inside the yard and the Police van also got inside. Phillip stopped the van which he was driving, next to the road. The Police got inside the yard with me and they asked me if I was Mabhoko. As I was surprised, one inside the van said "yes, it was him, the one who you are talking to", and then the Police started assaulting me.

&#9;They took me and they put me inside the Police van. They said to me I must go and show them where I lived and Phillip as well was put behind the Police van. We found other people at the back, I think Leah was one of them.

&#9;Just before they arrived at the main road, they stopped the van, they said to me I must come and sit in front. They said I must go and show them where I had dropped Emma Mtsweni together with the people who were in the van that I was driving. I got inside, in front of the van, I was the fourth person because there were three Police in front. 

&#9;As we were approaching the mountain where we had left them, we saw a fire. I was still inside the Police van. We went with them and I pointed where I had left Emma and when we arrived there, we didn't find anyone. We had discovered that the Police van couldn't drive to get closer to the place where she was burning.

&#9;They stopped, they took sticks from the trees and they started assaulting us. Other Police, after they alighted from the Police van, walked and got closer to where Emma was burning and they came back, they told us that she had been burnt and I don't know what else happened after this.

MR RICHARD: Now, to shorten the number of questions, I will ask you, you were here in this room yesterday listening to the evidence of Michael and Daniel Phasha, is that not correct?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, it is so, I was present.

MR RICHARD: Now, you heard the evidence about what was a moloi and what was an ngaka, do you remember that?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I will say I do remember.

MR RICHARD: Do you agree that the difference between a moloi and an ngaka?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, according to my belief, it is like that, there is a difference.

MR RICHARD: This morning we have had a further word, sangoma. A sangoma, is a sangoma the same as a moloi or the same as an ngaka?

MR MTSWENI: I think a sangoma and an ngaka is the same thing, and they are not a witch.

MR RICHARD: Okay. Now, my next question is why do you say the killing, the burning of a person who was suspected of bewitching your parents, was political? Could you tell us?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: My question is, you say that the act with which you are associated which constitutes a crime, that is the burning of Emma Mtsweni was political. Is that not correct?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, that is what I am saying.

MR RICHARD: My question then is why do you say it was political?

MR MTSWENI: I am saying so because I didn't take the decision all by myself to do such a thing, because if it wasn't political, I was going to go alone and do such a thing.

&#9;Another thing, there was a strategy which was used that a witch and an informer, those are the people to be burnt. We knew that these two were obstacles in things which we wanted to do politically.

MR RICHARD: Now, why was a witch considered to be in the same category as an impimpi?

MR MTSWENI: In or belief, in our communities, we believe that a witch is someone who is jealous and who destroys all the beauty of the community. An impimpi or an informer is someone who takes things to an opponent, in order for an opponent to attack you, like taking information to the Police. People like that at the time, we had agreed that these two people, or these two types of people were the ones suitable for necklacing, because they were obstacles in our way to development.

MR RICHARD: How did you see that a moloi or a witch could prejudice the liberation struggle, what could they do to affect its outcome?

MR MTSWENI: As I had explained that according to our belief, a witch is someone who doesn't like development, they always like killing and evil things, therefore we didn't want witches and informers.

MR RICHARD: How did you think the killing of your parents by the witch, would benefit those oppose to the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: You tell us that a person like a moloi can cause somebody's death, am I right or wrong?

MR MTSWENI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, if a moloi could or did tell your parents, how do you think that that would assist those who opposed the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: If a witch kill our parents, eventually we will have more offence and that will lead to less development. That is why I am saying we don't need witches in the communities.

MR RICHARD: On the hillside, were people silent or were they singing, were they toyi-toying?

MR MTSWENI: People were toyi-toying and singing.

MR RICHARD: What were they singing?

MR MTSWENI: One song which they sang was saying (indistinct), and another one was that impimpi, yes, she is one, moloi, yes, she is one.

MR RICHARD: Were they singing any other songs?

MR MTSWENI: There were quite a number of songs which were sang, but I do remember the ones that I have just mentioned.

MR RICHARD: Now, where were your ANC leaders at the stage that you were on the mountain, before you left to take the bakkie back?

MR MTSWENI: When we were in the mountain, they were there, they were present.

MR RICHARD: My last question, if what I am going to turn generally the ANC comrades weren't there, would you have bought the petrol to burn Emma Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: No. I couldn't have done that alone. If I had other means or if I wanted Emma dead, I would have done it alone when she first came to accuse us.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD&#9;&#9;&#9; 

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mokoena?

MR MOKOENA: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Mtsweni, to which political organisation did your parents belong, were they supporters or members of a particular, specific organisation?

MR MTSWENI: I would be lying if I say I know that they were supporters of a political organisation. I do not have an answer to that.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Panel?

MR SIBANYONI: Just to get the area very clear, when you refer to Mabhogo at Kameelrivier, are you not referring to the King Maisha II at Weltevrede?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat the question?

MR SIBANYONI: You are saying that Mabhogo is the senior chief and Mashiane is the junior chief. I just want to get clarity that by referring to Mabhogo, are you not referring to the Ndebele King who is Maisha II, where you got letters initially to attend the meeting?

MR MTSWENI: I am referring to Mabhogo, the one who was ruling kwaNdebele, in other words the King.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words the King, not the chief, am I correct?

MR MTSWENI: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Which school are you referring to where the meeting was held?

MR MTSWENI: It is a school near Pieterskraal.

MR SIBANYONI: You cannot remember the name?

MR MTSWENI: Egukhanyeni School.

MR SIBANYONI: And then at the stage when you purchased petrol at Waterval, was there already a decision taken that your grandmother would be necklaced?

INTERPRETER: I have a problem with my machine.

CHAIRPERSON: Please help her. All right, carry on.

MR SIBANYONI: How did you know that eventually your grandmother would be, or how did you know that eventually the decision would be taken that your grandmother should be burnt?

MR MTSWENI: Her actions as I have already explained, that her actions gave me the impression that she had more knowledge and she also helped by what she had said, because eventually she did say that she did that and she wasn't alone in doing so.

MR SIBANYONI: Who took the decision that she should be necklaced?

MR MTSWENI: If I do remember, I think I left before that decision was taken. I took the van, myself and Phillip and the people, some of the people who were left in the mountain are here, they will explain who had taken the decision that she must be burnt at that time when she was burnt.

MR SIBANYONI: In your evidence-in-chief I heard you referring to Skosh Nkabinde as the Chairperson. The question is the Chairperson of which structure?

MR MTSWENI: Youth League, ANC Youth League Chairperson, he was the one who was our leader at the time, we were under him in my area or the area where we were residing.

MR SIBANYONI: Was he always present when you were looking for your grandmother until your grandmother was taken to the mountain?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, he was present when we went to fetch my grandmother.

MR SIBANYONI: You told us that this incident happened on the 2nd of January 1991, but our bundle refers to the 1st of January 1991. Are you certain about the date on which it occurred?

MR MTSWENI: It may happen that I am making a mistake because of the time which had elapsed, but it was between the 1st and the 2nd of January. It has been a long time, I cannot be certain about that.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair. Do you know what has caused the death of your parents?

MR MTSWENI: I do not have that knowledge, I do not have the knowledge what was the cause. What I had discovered was that my grandmother did say that she had used muti, but also she wasn't alone in doing so. There were other people involved as well. The only knowledge now that I have is that my grandmother did say that she gave them muti, but she wasn't doing this alone. She also mentioned other names.

ADV SANDI: Did your two parents die at about the same time?

MR MTSWENI: There was a gap of about a month to three months.

ADV SANDI: Just explain to me what exactly are we talking about here, are we talking about people who had fallen sick and subsequently died?

MR MTSWENI: My father was sick, my mother was not sick. My father got sick, my father was sick and my mother was not sick, but my mother died first and then my father died after my mother's death.

ADV SANDI: Before Emma came to you to say that she had been made aware by someone that you were accusing her of having bewitched your two parents. Did you personally have any suspicion that there was witchcraft involved in the death of your parents?

MR MTSWENI: No, I wasn't suspecting anything.

ADV SANDI: Did you before Emma came to you, did you personally ever suspect her of being a witch?

MR MTSWENI: No. No, I never suspected Emma.

ADV SANDI: Did you at any stage thereafter believe that she was a witch?

MR MTSWENI: Well I believed that she was a witch, it was the word she had uttered on the day when she was burnt. She did say that she had done so, but she wasn't doing it alone. She was together with others, that is when I believed that she was a witch.

ADV SANDI: When you were travelling with the two vehicles to Vaaldam, this place where you had to go and fetch Emma, did you believe that she was a witch at that stage?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: You went to fetch Emma at some place, I think you said that was Vaalfontein, where she was apparently hiding, running away from you. do you remember saying that?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do remember.

ADV SANDI: My question is whilst you were travelling on the way to this place to fetch her, did you personally believe you were on the way to fetch a person who was a witch?

MR MTSWENI: As I had already explained that the fact that she had fled, gave me the impression that she was guilty. I was certain that if one didn't know anything, then one need not run away. I will put an example, if I know that I had stolen something, soon as I see Police, I will run away, because I don't want to be arrested, but if I had done nothing wrong, even if I see Police, I will just sit and relax, I won't be scared.

ADV SANDI: My understanding of your evidence is that at that stage you were not accusing her of being a witch, she had come to say to you that she had been told by someone that you say she is a witch, which thing you denied? You wanted to know this person, isn't that correct?

MR MTSWENI: I don't quite follow your question, you are asking a question about on my way to Vaalbank or where?

ADV SANDI: Is it not the position here that you never accused Emma of being a witch, that she behaved in a manner which made you suspicious that she must have been a witch, you never made such an allegation against her, did you?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, as I have already mentioned that I never suspected her, but her behaviour or her actions gave me another impression that she knew more.

ADV SANDI: Now, let's talk about the meeting there at the school. Who had suggested that such a meeting should be called?

MR MTSWENI: If I do remember, I had explained that Scwadi and Skosh were the two people that were responsible in organising the meetings. These were the people who used to advertise in order to call people for a meeting.

ADV SANDI: Did they tell you why a crowd of people had to be involved in this matter, at that stage? What was the purpose of this meeting, did they tell you?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat that for me?

ADV SANDI: Did they tell you why the meeting had to be called at the school?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, they did tell us why they called a meeting.

ADV SANDI: What did they tell you?

MR MTSWENI: We held two meetings in that school, which meeting are you referring to? You are talking about the first meeting or the second meeting?

ADV SANDI: I am sure you know very well that I am asking you about the time when the meeting was held for the first time at the school? That is what I am asking you about? What was the purpose of that meeting?

MR MTSWENI: The purpose of the first meeting was to inform the people that we were supposed to go with Emma to the sangoma. We told the people that we couldn't, we set a date and we went to the sangoma and when we arrived there we discovered that the sangoma was using appointments as I have already explained.

ADV SANDI: I am not asking you to repeat all the evidence you have given, I am asking you a very simple question, what was the purpose of convening that meeting at the school? What was the aim? Why were these people called, wasn't this a family matter as you say in your statement? You say it was a family matter?

MR MTSWENI: People gathered at the school to get information about what happened and also to be told that there were people who were going to fetch comrades from Kwaggafontein to come and burn down our house. Therefore we wanted them to know that there was such a thing in case it happened.

ADV SANDI: Yes, I follow you. This crowd of people having been told all this, what were they supposed to do, what were they expected to do, having been informed of all this? Let's talk about the five litre container of petrol, you said on the way to fetch Emma, you bought some quantity of petrol, did I understand you correctly to say that?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I said so.

ADV SANDI: Did you tell anyone of the people who were travelling with you, why you were buying this petrol?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't tell anyone. I just bought the petrol and I took it to the van or the bakkie.

ADV SANDI: By the way, you said at that stage you were buying this petrol because you were angry and frustrated that your parents had just died? 

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I said so.

ADV SANDI: Are you able to point out any person from the political leadership of your organisation who gave an order that this person should be killed?

MR MTSWENI: As I have already mentioned that the decision was taken in the long term, and I wasn't there by the time the decision was taken, I was in the Police van after I had dropped my uncle's bakkie at home.

ADV SANDI: I understand you were not opposed to such a decision being taken any way, were you?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: Would I be correct to understand you to say that you had no problem with the decision that was taken to burn this woman, would that be correct?

MR MTSWENI: If I will tell the truth, I will say it is so, I didn't have a problem. At that time I didn't have a problem on that decision.

ADV SANDI: Can you say why you had no problem with such a decision?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I can explain. As I had already (indistinct), I said when my grandmother ran away, she actually gave me the certain impression and also what she had said after we had captured her. With all that knowledge which I had at that time, I supported the decision even though they had decided without me, in my absence, because the reason I was not there, was because I had gone home to drop the bakkie.

ADV SANDI: My last question to you would be please tell us everything that you think is political about this incident, the necklacing of Emma Mtsweni, please tell us everything that you think is political about it.

MR MTSWENI: I will explain it this way - if what happened was personal, I would have done it alone, I wouldn't have involved the comrades of the area. Pieterskraal's comrades, the entire Youth, they were present because they were, they believed that informers and witches must be burnt. Therefore this whole thing, this entire incident was political and also we knew that an injury to one is an injury to all.

ADV SANDI: I thought the question I was asking you was my last one, my last, last question to you now. Did your parents believe that the deceased, Emma Mtsweni, was a witch?

MR MTSWENI: I wouldn't have an answer to that because I could never read my parents' mind and since they never opened their mouths about whether Emma was a witch or not, therefore I couldn't know and I cannot say they thought about it. What I can tell you is that I don't know, if I were to tell you anything different from that, it will be a lie.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but let me put this question differently, do you know if they suspected of anyone of having performed witchcraft against them as the result of which they died? Do you know if they entertained such a belief?

MR MTSWENI: No, I have never heard anything, probably it was their secret if they ever suspected anyone because they never told me that somebody was bewitching them.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much. Thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Richard, re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: One question, one of three questions. Why were there so many people at the school on both occasions?

MR MTSWENI: It was because these people were the followers and supporters of the ANC, whenever there were meetings, they used to come in numbers.

MR RICHARD: When you answered the Committee and said "we wanted the people to know", two questions come out of that, who are the people you refer to as "we"? The second question is, who did they want to know about the whole Emma story?

MR MTSWENI: The comrades needed to know, they wanted to know about what was happening about Emma and why we held meetings.

MR RICHARD: Now, you didn't say who is "we", is "we" just you or you and your family, who are the people you talk about as "we"?

MR MTSWENI: I had knowledge, I didn't need more, but it was myself and the Chairperson, and he was the one who was telling the person who gathered for the meeting.

MR RICHARD: Right, my last question is, did other people see you buy the petrol?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I will say they saw me and they didn't say anything. They didn't even ask me any questions when I bought the petrol.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mtsweni, you are excused, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR RICHARD: You have answered the question, my next witness or do we adjourn?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will take a shortened lunch adjournment and we will reconvene at two o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, who is the next applicant?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, the second person I am calling to apply is Phillip Mfulatwelwa Mtsweni.

NAME:&#9;PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM0313/96

---------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Is his application on page 25?

MR RICHARD: Page 25, Chairperson. I call him to be sworn.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. Mr Mtsweni, will you please stand to take the oath? Please sit down so long, just give us a second. Have you got any idea what language Mr Phillip Mtsweni will use?

MR RICHARD: Northern Sotho, isn't it? Zulu?

CHAIRPERSON: Zulu as well? All right, then we need the lady here. We have to wait for her. Mr Richard the spelling of the surname, is it correct as it appears in the papers, the application papers? M-t-s-w-e-n-i?

MR RICHARD: Let me confirm. Have you got an ID book?

MR MTSWENI: No, I haven't got my ID book here.

MR RICHARD: Is the spelling right, Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. Yes, I was just concerned, I thought I saw somewhere Motsweni, but then that problem is solved. All right, Mr Mtsweni, I think you can now stand to take the oath. Give your full names for the record please?

PHILLIP MFULATWELWA MTSWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, you have sworn? Can you give us your names too?

MR MTSWENI: My name?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please?

INTERPRETER: I can hardly hear the speaker, because he is standing.

MR MTSWENI: Phillip Mtsweni.

CHAIRPERSON: You have sworn that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, do you confirm that?

MR MTSWENI: That is fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you swear that the evidence you will give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? Just say so help me God?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do swear that the testimony that I am about to give, will be the truth, and so help me God.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please sit down Mr Mtsweni. Mr Richard?

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. Before we start, let's understand the relationships between the various parties. Would you please explain to us what is your relationship with the first witness we called today, that is July Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: July Mtsweni is my brother's son, only by the surname, not blood brothers.

MR RICHARD: Emma Mtsweni, what is her relationship to you, what was her relationship to you?

MR MTSWENI: Emma Mtsweni, my father and her husband, they are brothers.

MR RICHARD: And then Speelman Mtsweni, one of your co-applicants, what is his relationship to you?

MR MTSWENI: As I have explained, it is the same relationship as July.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, you heard July Mtsweni's evidence this morning, is that not correct? Were you here when July Mtsweni gave evidence?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I heard July Mtsweni when he gave his evidence before this Committee, but my evidence goes a little bit further than July's evidence.

MR RICHARD: Before we go there, may I ask these questions. At the time of the incident described by July Mtsweni, were you a member or a supporter of a political party or organisation?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I was a follower and a supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: What did you do to show that you were a follower and a supporter of that party?

MR MTSWENI: We participated in various actions to show that we were members of the ANC. The first one that I can tell this Committee is that there were times when people were told we do not go to work, and we participated in consumer boycotts and strikes. 

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, in - could you please tell us where Pieterskraal is and which is the nearest significant town?

MR MTSWENI: Pieterskraal is an area near Pretoria, because most of the people go to Pretoria, but Groblersdal is the town nearby.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mtsweni, just for a person to get an idea, isn't it so that Pieterskraal is just next to kwaMhlanga, a well known area there in kwaNdebele? kwaMhlanga, do you know that place?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, it is a little bit far, it is not that close.

MR SIBANYONI: But it is very closer to kwaMhlanga than Pretoria or Groblersdal, is that so?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, if we compared the distances between Pretoria and Groblersdal, then kwaMhlanga is closer to Pieterskraal.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Is it an area in which traditional leaders and chiefs still have authority and a role to play?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, it is an area which is ruled by chiefs, even though I cannot have certain on that, because it has been a long time since I have been there.

MR RICHARD: As at January 1991, who was the senior chief or King of that area?

MR MTSWENI: The senior chief or the King, I am not certain whether Mabhogo or the chief, I don't understand.

MR RICHARD: You heard your brother give evidence, your relative, not your brother, sorry, give evidence that he went to see a certain chief. Were you with him when he went to see that chief?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do understand and now I understand which chief you are referring to. Yes, I do know that chief.

MR RICHARD: What was his name?

MR MTSWENI: chief Mashiane.

MR RICHARD: There was another chief above him, did you also go and see that chief?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do know the senior chief, Mabhogo, if I am not mistaken, I think they are referring to him as Mabhogo III.

MR RICHARD: Did you go with the first witness, July Mtsweni, to see Mabhogo III?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't accompany July, because I wasn't present.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Yesterday, were you present when applicants Daniel and Michael Phasha gave evidence as to the difference in functions and activities of people known as Ngaka's and moloi?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I was present and I heard their evidence.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree with the descriptions given of what a moloi does and what a ngaka does and the differences between them?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do agree because I do have knowledge as to what a ngaka or a sangoma does and what a witch does.

MR RICHARD: Tell me, do you believe what a ngaka does, a sangoma does, do you have confidence and faith in the traditional healer's practises?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do believe.

MR RICHARD: When it comes to what I am terming a moloi, do you believe that a moloi can by supernatural means cause harm, injury, death to another person?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, it is my belief. I do believe in witchcraft.

MR RICHARD: Now, you started by telling us that you wanted to add something to what July Mtsweni told us earlier today. Please continue and tell us what I interrupted you?

MR MTSWENI: The reason I took part in this incident, I will first start by relating what happened for me to participate. First I accompanied them when they went to see the junior chief. The argument or the discussion was about witchcraft and we wanted to ascertain whether there was a witch involved. We discussed and my question was "is there a person among us who can recommend a sangoma where we can go and clarity this" and no one knew and I told them that I do know someone and I mentioned that person and I asked everyone if they do agree for us to all go to Makuduza, who is the sangoma and we all agreed that we were going to see Makuduza.

&#9;I questioned the deceased's children if they would be able to afford R10-00 so that we put petrol and they agreed. I asked July's family if they will be able to put R10-00 as well, for petrol, so that we put it together as R20-00 for petrol to go to Makuduza's place. They also agreed. I requested one family member from July's family and one family member from the deceased's children and if I remember well, it was (indistinct) Mtsweni and July's brother.

MR RICHARD: Which brother? You say July's brother, which brother?

MR MTSWENI: July's brother, his name was Kleinboy Mtsweni. 

MR RICHARD: Thank you, carry on.

MR MTSWENI: We went passed my home. We went to look for Makuduza because we didn't know at the time where he was staying, he had left (indistinct) and we were told that he was now in Tafelkop.

&#9;We arrived at Makuduza's place in Tafelkop. When we entered the gate, Kleinboy said it was written how he was operating and he read and he told us that it was written that people needed to make appointments since the consultation times were there. Therefore we decided that we can go back because we had the information as to when we can see him.

&#9;We left, when we arrived at home, I dropped Kleinboy and I also dropped Mbaveli. It was already late. I didn't waste any time, I went straight home. 

&#9;Later we agreed on a date as to when we can go to see Makuduza again. After we agreed on the date, I didn't show up on the first date which we agreed on. I didn't go. I heard that they went, but they didn't go on the time of the consultation, the one we got on the wall. They also came back and it was decided that we were supposed to set on another date to go back to Makuduza's place.

&#9;When the second date was set, I was present. On the day which we agreed to go, I arrived after the meeting which was held in a school, I joined them. We proceeded to the deceased's home, to fetch the deceased, so that we go to Makuduza's place. When we arrived at the deceased's home, it was asked as to where the deceased was and her children told us that she wasn't around, she had run away, she went to her brother's place.

MR RICHARD: She went to her brother's place, may I stop you there and ask you this question. On what date was this meeting at the school, can you remember?

MR MTSWENI: No, I do not remember, because it happened a long time, I don't remember the date.

MR RICHARD: Was it on the same day or some time before the deceased was killed?

MR MTSWENI: It was on the same day when she was killed.

MR RICHARD: Now at page 26 of the bundle, which is an annexure to your amnesty application, you make the comment -&#9;&#9;"... the family proceedings is where (indistinct) took place by this certain uninvited group, called the comrades."

&#9;Please tell us what you meant by that phrase.

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do agree because this was a family issue, and comrades got involved.

MR RICHARD: Who involved the comrades?

MR MTSWENI: I wouldn't be able to clarify that, but the people who were our leaders, I will say they were the ones who involved comrades.

MR RICHARD: Who were these leaders, what were their names?

MR MTSWENI: If I do remember well it was Skosh and Scwadi.

MR RICHARD: Now, what were they leaders of, were they chiefs of the tribe or leaders of a political organisation?

MR MTSWENI: They were political leaders.

MR RICHARD: Which party did they belong to and which politics did they support?

MR MTSWENI: The ANC.

MR RICHARD: Your paragraph continues and the end phrase of paragraph 1 reads -

&#9;&#9;"... then they intervened us where controversials took place."

&#9;What are the controversials that you are talking about?

MR MTSWENI: When they got involved, it became clear that this whole matter was now in the hands of the comrades, no longer in the family hands.

MR RICHARD: At paragraph 2, you say -

&#9;&#9;"... indication about intervened group, they told me to land them to a place of their choice."

&#9;Now, to a place of their choice, which place are you referring to?

MR MTSWENI: I do not understand your question.

MR RICHARD: Your paragraph reads -

&#9;&#9;"... indication about intervened group, they told me to land them to a place of their choice and I took them for further investigation."

&#9;Now, the intervened group I understand, are the comrades and then you refer to a place of their choice. I simply want to know where was that place? What was that place?

MR MTSWENI: They wanted to go to the place where this woman had fled to.

MR RICHARD: Yes, right, and then you carry on -

&#9;&#9;"... we were still on meeting when the situation started to be uncontrollable."

&#9;Where was that meeting that you refer to in that sentence?

MR MTSWENI: It was in the junior chief's kraal. The situation changed, some people felt that they needed to get involved.

MR RICHARD: Now, on the day of Emma Mtsweni's death, where were you that morning?

MR MTSWENI: In the morning I was at home, in my home.

MR RICHARD: Did you attend any meetings that day?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't attend any meeting. I went there later, it was in the afternoon. It was when it was about to finish.

MR RICHARD: What was happening then?

MR MTSWENI: When I arrived, the comrades were leaving the school to go to the deceased's home. I joined them and I was driving my bakkie. We went to the deceased's home.

MR RICHARD: What did you find there?

MR MTSWENI: In the deceased's home, we found her children. We asked them as to where their mother was and they told us she had fled, she went to her brother's place. We left.

&#9;We boarded both bakkies, July's bakkie and my bakkie, together with the comrades, we went to Waterval. We filled in the petrol and I realised that my tyres were not balanced. I was busy pumping the tyres and I had already told July that I needed petrol in my car, July filled in my car with petrol. I didn't enquire from him how much he had spent. I could tell that he had filled in by R20-00 because I was used to that car and the gage. When we arrived at Vaalbank ...

MR RICHARD: Before you get to Vaalbank, did you see July buy petrol other than for the cars? Did you see him buy petrol in a container?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't see him.

MR RICHARD: On the way to Vaalbank, what did you think would happen to Emma Mtsweni if you found her there?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I could tell because of the comrades' emotions, I could tell that something bad might happen to Emma.

MR RICHARD: What had made the comrades build up the emotions that you could see?

MR MTSWENI: Comrades suspected that Emma was a witch and that is why they were angry.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you left Waterval, where did you go next? Carry on with the story.

MR MTSWENI: We drove towards Vaalbank, when we arrived in Vaalbank where she had fled to, we stopped. Comrades and myself, we entered the house. If I remember very well, I think it was a shack house. They went at the back of this shack and the man, the owner of that house was told that we were there to fetch Emma.

&#9;He could tell that the situation was tense. I think he had a stick in his hand and the comrades went back a little bit. I had stopped on the way of the gate, which goes to a neighbour. Another lady came, a woman, came towards the gate and I could tell that this woman was in a hurry for something.

&#9;I think we were two or three in that gate. We disturbed her, because we didn't want her to go in there, because something might happen to her as well. The comrades who were closer to that shack, kicked open the door, I think it was Victor if I remember well, and they took Emma, they put her into July's bakkie. July reversed the car. I didn't, I just drove straight and I turned on the next street. The next street was closer to the Police station. I turned towards the main road, we drove straight back.

&#9;When we arrived in Pieterskraal, at the school, we were going to hold a meeting there. People alighted from the bakkies, but it didn't take them five minutes to come back, because it was said that since we had realised that where we took this woman is closer to the Police station, it might happen that Police can follow us, and the suggestion was that we should proceed to the mountain.

&#9;Indeed, we proceeded to the mountains. We were using the two bakkies and some comrades were by foot. When we arrived in the mountain, she was taken from the car and she was questioned. It wasn't long before she uttered something, she said she wasn't the only one who was responsible for killing. There was another man by the name of Nkabinde. He was responsible for the muti, because he is the one who gave her the muti to kill July's parents.

&#9;We said "this is what we needed from her", we decided to take the bakkies back. July and myself, we drove the two bakkies. When we arrived at home, we found that Police vans were there. The Police started questioning July, I was at a distance. They said to July "where was the person who you had in this car", and July told them that he had left this person in the mountains.

&#9;They didn't hit me, but they started assaulting July. I was scared and I walked closer to the van because I wanted them to just put me behind the van, I didn't want them to assault me. They put us in the van and they drove with us, because they wanted us to show them where we left the deceased. They stopped on the road, they wanted July to come in front because they wanted him to be with them, so that he pointed exactly to the place where we had left the deceased.

&#9;We proceeded. As the Police van was approaching towards the mountain, we could see the flames, there was fire. The Police stopped closer and they took July from the front and locked him together with us, at the back. They got in the forest, in that mountain and they came back, they told us that the person we had, is the one who was on fire. That is when they started assaulting us.

&#9;That is how I participated in this whole thing.

MR RICHARD: Now before you left the mountain in your bakkie, did you see what became of the petrol in the container?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't see the petrol, but what I saw with my eyes, was a tie and that tie was put around her neck. That is when I left.

MR RICHARD: Did you intend coming back to the mountain?

MR MTSWENI: Yes. I intended to go back to the mountain.

MR RICHARD: At the times that you were at the school, can you give us an estimate of how many people were at the school?

MR MTSWENI: Even though I didn't count them, but I think there were between 300 to 400.

MR RICHARD: How many people were on the mountain?

MR MTSWENI: I will still say approximately between 300 and 400.

MR RICHARD: Forgive me for my mispronunciations, but you two ANC leaders Skosh and Scwadi, where were they when you were at the mountain?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I will say they were still present, but since there were too many people there and it was already dark, I cannot certainly say I did see them.

MR RICHARD: And were they at the school on both the occasions that you were there?

MR MTSWENI: As I have already mentioned that I only arrived at that school after the meeting, in fact just after the meeting had finished, and I will say yes, they were present.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, if you think back to that period at the end of 1990, the beginning of 1991, what did the comrades think and believe about moloi's, impimpi's, ngaka's?

MR MTSWENI: There is a difference between an informer and a witch. A witch is someone who is evil and an informer takes information to places where by so doing, he knows that there will be a conflict.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did the comrades believe about impimpi's, what was their attitude towards them?

MR MTSWENI: At the time, all comrades knew that an informer should be burnt.

MR RICHARD: And what did they believe should be done to moloi's, a moloi?

MR MTSWENI: Also a witch was someone to be burnt by comrades.

MR RICHARD: But why?

MR MTSWENI: Because a witch is full of evil and doesn't want any development in people and a witch is a disturbance in people's lives.

MR RICHARD: What do you think the attitude of a moloi was to the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: A witch will make you sick, you lose your mind because that is what he would like to see so that you don't develop yourself or you don't progress, he makes sure that there is no progress in your life at all.

MR RICHARD: And this is what you say the moloi's were doing to people in the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, they bewitched people who were involved in the liberation struggle, but not just that, they also bewitched people merely by jealousy, if someone was progressing or developing himself or herself, they will also be jealous of that.

MR RICHARD: Did you identify yourself with the belief that the comrades had concerning what should be done to witches, to moloi's?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I also believed in what the comrades believed, because I knew that witches didn't want development.

MR RICHARD: Who decided that Emma Mtsweni should be burnt?

MR MTSWENI: If I can put it this way, the people who were our leaders, they were the ones who decided because if you are a subordinate, you cannot take a decision, but your leaders always take decisions for you.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree or disagree with the decision?

MR MTSWENI: I did agree with the decision because I realised that this person was a disturbance in the community.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree with the comrades that she was an enemy of the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I agreed with the comrades that she was a disturbance and a development.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Before I close my questioning-in-chief, why were there so many people both at the school and on the hillside?

MR MTSWENI: According to my knowledge, comrades when they do things, they call each other and each and every comrade wants to see what is going on.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mokoena, any questions?

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have two questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MTANGA: Mr Mtsweni, what did your parents' death have to do with the ANC's political struggle?

MR RICHARD: Chairperson, I think my learned colleague has made an error, it wasn't this Mr Mtsweni whose parents died, it was the first one.

CHAIRPERSON: The other one.

MS MTANGA: Oh yes. Mr Mtsweni, I will refer to the parents of July Mtsweni as your relatives, what did the death of these two relatives of yours, have to do with the ANC's political struggle?

MR MTSWENI: The deceased of July's parents had to do with politics, because the leaders of the ANC said witches were disturbing development and we should kill informers and witches.

MS MTANGA: Before the comrades got involved in this matter, did you consider the issue between July's family and Emma Mtsweni, a family matter?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I saw it political.

MS MTANGA: Are you saying you saw it as political or you saw it as a family matter, before the involvement of the comrades?

MR MTSWENI: I think you have just explained your point now, you clarified it. Initially when the family members were holding meetings, I didn't see it politically, but as time went on, I changed my perception and I could tell that it was political and comrades were saying "kill the witches and kill the informers."

MS MTANGA: So would I be correct to say that in your opinion, it only became political when the comrades became involved?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, when I realised comrades were getting involved in this matter, I could tell that it was political.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Does the Panel have any questions?

ADV SANDI: Yes Chair, just one question from me. Mr Mtsweni, can you give us names of political leaders who said this person should be burnt?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I can. It was Scwadi and Skosh.

ADV SANDI: Where did say this?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

ADV SANDI: You say it was Scwadi and Skosh, I am asking you where and when was that?

MR MTSWENI: I am saying so because they were the people in front and everything that happened happened after they had explained to us.

ADV SANDI: Yes but did they specifically say that Emma must be burnt?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, they said so. They said that Emma must be burnt, even though they didn't say this to me. Everything that happened there, it was on their instruction.

ADV SANDI: Where were you when they said this, you say even if they did not say it to you? Who was there when they said that Emma must be killed?

MR MTSWENI: I am saying so because they were the people who were on the forefront and they were the people who were instructing people what to do. That is why I am saying they said so, because people were following what they were saying.

ADV SANDI: I understood you to say that you were not sure if they were at the mountain where she was burnt?

MR MTSWENI: I said so because I said there were quite a number of people and it was already dark at the time when we were at the mountain therefore one could hardly see someone in the face, even though you can see people moving up and down. That is why I am saying I am not certain whether they were there still with the group.

ADV SANDI: Okay. In other words when you say that they are the ones who said the deceased should be killed, you are not saying something that you know as a matter of fact, you are simply expressing what you think, you are stating an opinion?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I am not certain whether they were present, but the things which were happening there and the instructions which were issued were issued by him. They were present but I didn't see them with my eyes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination, Mr Richard?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you. Two or three questions. Did you hear either one of the two leaders you named, say "Emma Mtsweni must die and be burnt", with your own ears?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't hear that with my own ears.

MR RICHARD: My next question is once you knew that the crowd of comrades were going to burn Emma Mtsweni, did you at that point in time, see either one of the two leaders?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question, I didn't follow it?

MR RICHARD: Let me try it this way around, at what point in these proceedings did you know that Emma Mtsweni was going to be killed, was it on the mountain, at Vaalbank, the school?

MR MTSWENI: Where I actually saw that Emma was in danger, it was when she had revealed that there was a man who had given her muti to kill July's parents. That is where I realised that she had no chance because people started wanting to know who else were involved.

MR RICHARD: Where was she when she said what you have just related?

MR MTSWENI: Where we dropped her.

MR RICHARD: Where was that, was that at the school, at the mountain or somewhere else?

MR MTSWENI: At the mountain, on the foot of the mountain.

MR RICHARD: Did you see either one of the two leaders near her and able to hear what she had just said?

MR MTSWENI: It was dark at that time, one couldn't see the faces and I do believe that they were there, they were present even though I didn't hear or see any of them.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mtsweni, thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the next applicant?

MR RICHARD: The next applicant to be called is Speelman Ernest Mtsweni.

NAME:&#9;SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM4300/96

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHAIRPERSON: That is on page 17 or 13? 13 yes? Very well. Sorry, could we just swop around?

&#9;Yes, Mr Mtsweni, please stand. Are you Speelman Ernest Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, that is correct.

SPEELMAN ERNEST MTSWENI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please sit down. Yes, Mr Richard?

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Before we get into the details, may I ask you the following question, what is your relationship to the last witness, that is Phillip Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: My uncle.

MR RICHARD: Could you describe exactly who he is married to, is it one of your mother's sisters or is he your father's brother?

MR MTSWENI: He is my uncle because his father is my grandfather. He is my relative, I don't know clearly to indicate the line of relationship, but he is my relative.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. What is your relationship to July Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: He is my brother.

MR RICHARD: In other words you share the same mother and father?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, we share the same parents.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. So - now during the period 1990/1991 did you belong to any political organisation or support any political organisation?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I was a follower of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: For how long had you followed the ANC? From when did you start?

MR MTSWENI: Even though I wouldn't be able to give you the year, but since I started becoming aware, the ANC was the only organisation, therefore I supported the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Now, where did you grow up and where were you educated?

MR MTSWENI: Pieterskraal, and I also went to school in Pieterskraal.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Do you agree with the description of Pieterskraal by the previous two witnesses, that it is a rural area, part of the old kwaNdebele which was still then under the influence of tribal leaders and (indistinct) and chiefs?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: Now, how did you demonstrate your support and association with the ANC?

MR MTSWENI: The meetings which were held,I used to be one of the people present in the meeting. Whenever there were consumer boycotts, I used to support that, whenever there were strikes, I used to participate as well.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, you have heard the previous witnesses describe a number of events which culminated in the killing of Emma Mtsweni on the 2nd of January 1991, at what stage in those events, did you become connected with what developed? Was it the 2nd, the 1st, before then? Which meetings were you at?

MR MTSWENI: I arrived at the school after the meeting had been finished. It was when they were on their way to the mountains. Phillip and July dropped other comrades who were in their bakkies. We got inside the forest with this person.

&#9;When we arrived in the forest, she was questioned as to who else was involved in her work. 

MR RICHARD: If I understand you correctly, Phillip and July Mtsweni came back to the school with her and it was from there that you went to the forest?

MR MTSWENI: I met them in the school after the meeting, as they were going to the mountain.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, did you know anything about the story of Emma Mtsweni asking your brother and uncle who had named her, sorry, why they had named her as a witch, did you know any of this background?

MR MTSWENI: What I can say is that when she came and claimed that it had been alleged that she was a witch and she had said that we were the ones who accused her of witchcraft and when she was asked as to who told her that, she didn't want to reveal. I left the whole story to the elderly because I was still young at that time, so therefore I didn't pursue it.

MR RICHARD: And you weren't at any of the meetings where that was discussed and decisions were made to refer the problem to an Ngaka and so on?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't.

MR RICHARD: At the time that you were at the school and people were going to take Emma Mtsweni to the mountain, what did you think they were going to do with her there?

MR MTSWENI: When I arrived at the school, the meeting was over and I did question some of the people there and I was told that they were just going to question her in the mountain.

MR RICHARD: What were they going to, let me start again, who did you ask that question?

MR MTSWENI: The person who was closer to me, it was Richard Skosana.

MR RICHARD: Did Richard Skosana belong to or support any political organisation?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, he was, and that is why he was there, he was a supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Were there any people there who were not supporters of the ANC?

MR MTSWENI: I would by lying, I think the people who were there, they were supporters of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Now, when you got to the mountain, what did they do to Emma Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: When we arrived at the mountain, Emma was questioned and what she said was she wasn't in this thing alone. She also said that the muti that she gave them, she wasn't killing them, she wanted them to be made, the muti was just to make them crazy and she also said that she was working with Mahlangu. When she said so, Sam Mahlangu who is a son of Mr Mahlangu, said that we must go and fetch his father as well, so that he can come and listen to the allegations. As Sam went to fetch his father, Victor Ntuli gave the five litre container to Janya. Janya poured the petrol over Emma and Richard Skosana came and he also poured the petrol over Emma. I took the petrol from Richard and I also poured.

MR RICHARD: Now what did the comrades, that you were part of, believe about a person called a moloi? What did they believe should be done to a moloi?

MR MTSWENI: We believed that the witch or moloi, is the person to be killed.

MR RICHARD: Why did you believe that a witch should be killed?

MR MTSWENI: It was part of the struggle. We didn't need witches because we saw them as evil and as obstacles to the development.

MR RICHARD: In what way was a witch an obstacle to development?

MR MTSWENI: A witch was dangerous. If we had to leave a witch amongst the community, a witch can destroy the community because he is an obstruction to development.

MR RICHARD: Do you believe in witchcraft?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Do you believe that witches use their magic sorcery against the ANC?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I do believe because one of the things that a witch can do, is to disrupt development and the witches didn't like what the Youth was doing, and the Youth was fighting the struggle.

MR RICHARD: Why do you think a witch might have wanted to kill your parents?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: You are the brother of the first applicant, July Mtsweni?

MR MTSWENI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now my next question is, your parents had died recently within a short period from each other, is that not correct?

MR MTSWENI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now my next question is, why do you think a witch might have wanted your parents dead?

MR MTSWENI: I didn't think that a witch wanted my parents dead.

MR RICHARD: And when you heard Emma Mtsweni say what she said on the side of the mountain, what did you think?

MR MTSWENI: It was too difficult for me, because first she is the one who came to my home and accused us of accusing her of being a witch and now at the mountain, she was confessing that she had done that, and she was doing it with other people as well.

MR RICHARD: Who decided that she should die?

MR MTSWENI: It was Skosh and Scwadi.

MR RICHARD: Did you hear either of them say that Emma Mtsweni should die?

MR MTSWENI: After she had confessed as to what she had done and who else was involved, one of them said "since she had said so, she must be killed."

MR RICHARD: How far away from that person, were you when you heard him say that?

MR MTSWENI: Close to me and Emma, this person was closer to me and Emma.

MR RICHARD: Now, at that stage, did you see Johannes Mahlangu or Charles Skosana near you?

MR MTSWENI: No, I didn't see Johannes. I saw Charles.

MR RICHARD: How far away from you, was he?

MR MTSWENI: Charles was closer to me. I was closer to Charles.

MR RICHARD: Who lit the petrol?

MR MTSWENI: After we had poured the petrol, I didn't see the person who lit the match, but Janya said "Charles, were is the match" and Charles took the box of matches and said "here". When he said so, a Police van were approaching and the lights were direct to where we were and I looked at those lights and when I turned back, the body was already on fire but I didn't see the person who actually lit, but the box of matches was with Charles.

MR RICHARD: Now, on the mountain, were people singing, toyi-toying?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, they were singing and they were toyi-toying.

MR RICHARD: What were they saying, what were the words of the songs?

MR MTSWENI: One song called (indistinct)

MR RICHARD: What does that mean to you?

MR MTSWENI: It means if you don't come out with the truth, you will be burnt.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did your age brothers, your comrades, believe are impimpi's and moloi's?

MR MTSWENI: They must be burnt.

MR RICHARD: If it had been an impimpi on the mountain, would they have sung any different song?

MR MTSWENI: They will sing the very song and other songs as well, because there are quite a number of songs.

MR RICHARD: Were any other songs sung before Emma was set on fire?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, there were.

MR RICHARD: What were they?

MR MTSWENI: (Indistinct), meaning an informer is not required, it is banned.

MR RICHARD: Why did you see, yourself personally, Emma Mtsweni's killing as political?

MR MTSWENI: As we as comrades knew that informers and witches were not needed in the community and on top of that, on that particular day we had leaders amongst us, they are the ones who sanctioned the actions.

MR RICHARD: How would that further the cause of the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: How would the killing of Emma Mtsweni further the freedom struggle, the liberation struggle?

MR MTSWENI: As he or as she had confessed that she was doing that, other witches were going to be scared to do the same and therefore development was going to ensue.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mokoena?

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Chairperson, I have no questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokoena. Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA&#9;&#9;&#9; 

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Does the Panel have any questions?

ADV SANDI: Yes, just maybe one or two. On the way to the mountain, did Emma try to do anything to free herself and perhaps run away?

MR MTSWENI: No, she didn't try on our way to the mountain.

ADV SANDI: You have said that she was questioned at the mountain. Who was questioning her?

MR MTSWENI: Victor Ntuli.

ADV SANDI: How was she questioned?

MR MTSWENI: He questioned her about her running away and he wanted to know why she was running away and she answered back that the reason she ran away was because she had done that and she wasn't alone and also that her motive was not killing my parents, but it was to make them crazy.

ADV SANDI: What I want to know is did Victor Ntuli use any physical force to question her?

MR MTSWENI: No, she was not assaulted, she was just questioned.

ADV SANDI: Was he carrying anything in his hand or hands whilst he was questioning her?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, he had something in his hand, it was the container, the five litre container of petrol.

ADV SANDI: Then she made what you refer to as the confession that she was a witch?

MR MTSWENI: Victor didn't touch her, he questioned her and she said "yes, I have done that but my aim was not to kill them, but was just to make them crazy."

ADV SANDI: Did anything happen to the person whose name she mentioned, did anything happen to that person, the one who was said to have given her the muti?

MR MTSWENI: Could you please repeat the question?

ADV SANDI: You have mentioned a name, I think you have said it was Mahlangu who supplied the medicine, the muti. what happened to Mahlangu, did anything happen to him? You said the group went out to fetch him?

MR MTSWENI: After the group had left, immediately a Police van came.

ADV SANDI: So is it today the position that nothing ever happened to Mahlangu?

MR MTSWENI: No, nothing, nothing happened.

ADV SANDI: I understood the first two applicants to say that it was dark at the mountain, where were you able to see these people you mentioned, you said, you mentioned a number of names of people who were there at the mountain? It was dark but you were still able to see these people, or was it not so dark that you could not see them?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, it was dark, but we were together, they were just next to me, close.

ADV SANDI: Now, Victor Ntuli, do you know if he occupied any portfolio in the ANC or any political organisation aligned with the ANC?

MR MTSWENI: What I can say is that I am not certain about his position but he was a comrade.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but would you be able to rate him at the same rank as Scwadi and Skosh? Would he have been of about the same rank in the organisation or was he just an ordinary ANC supporter?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I can.

ADV SANDI: Did you see Scwadi and Skosh at the mountain?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, I saw them.

ADV SANDI: What did they do or what did they say?

MR MTSWENI: They said "since she had confessed, then we must finish with her."

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mtsweni, on page 15, when you were answering question 10(a) you said there is no political objective to be achieved on this matter, since it is very painful. My question is did you misunderstand the question or at the time you were completing the form, you believed that there was no political objective to be achieved?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR SIBANYONI: Let me maybe rephrase the question. Did you complete the form on your own, or did somebody help you to complete the form?

MR MTSWENI: I did it on my own.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you look at page 15, it says there is no political objective to be achieved. Did you misunderstand what you were asked or at that stage you believed there was no political objective to be achieved?

MR MTSWENI: I made a mistake when filling in the application.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: With your permission, if I could just take that one further. What exactly were you trying to say there, if you say you made a mistake?

MR MTSWENI: I made a mistake, I think I didn't quite follow.

ADV SANDI: In answer to a question raised under 10(b) you seem to regret that this thing was joined by comrades who caused a lot of destruction in the matter, under 10(b)? Can you show your man, Mr Richard?

MR MTSWENI: Yes, initially this woman came to my home and this matter was a family matter and then later it went on until the comrades were involved.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman for your indulgence.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Richard?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: One or two questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes please.

MR RICHARD: At what stage did you change your mind and believed that the comrades were right about your grandmother?

MR MTSWENI: Would you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: What you have said so far is initially you thought it was a family matter, but then at some stage you changed your mind. My question is at what stage, when, did you change your mind?

MR MTSWENI: After I heard that there were comrades who were going to come and burn down my house.

MR RICHARD: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mtsweni, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Who is next, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. My next person I beg leave to call is Mr Mahlangu.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

NAME:&#9;&#9;&#9;JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM7461/97

---------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Just remain Mr Mahlangu, don't sit down, just stand. Give your full names for the record.

MR MAHLANGU: Johannes Mabulani Mahlangu.

JOHANNES JABULANI MAHLANGU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You can sit down. Mr Richard?

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mahlangu, during the period December 1990, January 1991, were you a member of or a supporter of any political party or political movement?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I was a member.

MR RICHARD: You say a member, did you carry a membership card of any party?

MR MAHLANGU: I had a card.

MR RICHARD: Issued by who?

MR MAHLANGU: The ANC Youth League.

MR RICHARD: When did you join the ANC Youth League?

MR MAHLANGU: I think it was in 1987 or 1988.

MR RICHARD: I believe that would be 1987, is that correct, 1987? Now did you ever occupy any particular portfolio or position within the Youth League?

MR MAHLANGU: No.

MR RICHARD: So you were just an ordinary member?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, where did you grow up and where were you schooled?

MR MAHLANGU: Pieterskraal.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. In Pieterskraal, did you get to know the Mtsweni family?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What political affiliation did they have, if any?

MR MAHLANGU: I am not quite certain about that.

MR RICHARD: Now, how did you demonstrate your membership or support of the ANC?

MR MAHLANGU: I used to participate in boycotts and also I used to volunteer as a member to help if there were meetings, I used to participate as well.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, at what stage did you become aware of the discussions regarding Emma Mtsweni and her connection with witchcraft?

MR MAHLANGU: I heard about this in the last meeting.

MR RICHARD: In the last meeting? When you say the last meeting, on what time of the day, on which day, was this meeting?

MR MAHLANGU: It was at about six in the afternoon.

MR RICHARD: Where was this meeting?

MR MAHLANGU: Egukhanyeni School.

MR RICHARD: When you arrived at that meeting, what had your learnt?

MR MAHLANGU: When I arrived, the meeting was just about to be finished.

MR RICHARD: Did you know what the meeting was about and what did you learn about what had happened in the meeting?

MR MAHLANGU: Lately yes.

MR RICHARD: I didn't understand, sorry? You arrived at the meeting, the meeting was about to disperse, did you ask anyone what was happening at the meeting and why the meeting had been held?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: What were you told?

MR MAHLANGU: I was told that Emma Mtsweni was supposed to accompany others to go to a sangoma and the meeting area was going to be the school, and therefore it was decided that she was going to be fetched in order to be questioned why she didn't show up in the meeting.

MR RICHARD: Did you know why she was supposed to show up at the meeting and what was supposed to be investigated after this discussion?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And you confirm what the previous witnesses have said today, about why she had to be fetched?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did you do, did you go with them to go and fetch her or did you stay at Pieterskraal?

MR MAHLANGU: I went with them to fetch her.

MR RICHARD: Where did you go to fetch her from?

MR MAHLANGU: We went to fetch her from Vaalbank, where she had fled.

MR RICHARD: At Vaalbank, how did you go to Vaalbank, did you walk, did you ride?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, or did you listen to the full account that was given of this trip and how the deceased was picked up in Vaalbank, and everything that happened on the way and how she was eventually taken back to the school where that meeting was being held. Do you confirm that testimony or do you differ from it? If you differ from it, just tell us in 

which respects you differ.

MR MAHLANGU: I do confirm everything they had said.

CHAIRPERSON: Good. You are now back at the school, carry on.

MR RICHARD: For how long were you back at the school?

MR MAHLANGU: We only spent about four to five minutes there.

MR RICHARD: And then where did you go?

MR MAHLANGU: We went to the mountain.

MR RICHARD: You have heard the previous evidence of going to the mountain, do you confirm that?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do confirm what they have said.

MR RICHARD: Now, where were you in relation to the deceased when you arrived at the mountain and did you see anything being done to her or happening to her? Did people question her, do anything?

MR MAHLANGU: I was responsible for taking her out of the car and then after that, I left her in the hands of comrades and I didn't do anything.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, how did you take her out of the car?

MR MAHLANGU: I opened the door and she was taken out.

MR RICHARD: What did the comrades do with her once they took her out of the car?

MR MAHLANGU: They surrounded her.

MR RICHARD: What did they say or do?

MR MAHLANGU: It was, they were toyi-toying and singing and after they surrounded her, they started singing louder.

MR RICHARD: Did you hear what they were singing?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What were they singing?

MR MAHLANGU: They were singing (indistinct)

MR RICHARD: And you agree with the interpretation the previous witnesses have given us of that song and what it means?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: Could you hear them say anything else to her because if they were singing and - did they say anything else to her?

MR MAHLANGU: No, I didn't hear because they were singing.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you see any ANC leaders around her or near you or any were there?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, they were.

MR RICHARD: Who did you see?

MR MAHLANGU: Victor Ntuli, he was together with us, we left with him and came back with him.

MR RICHARD: Who else?

MR MAHLANGU: Scwadi was also present.

MR RICHARD: Anyone else?

MR MAHLANGU: The only two that I am certain of, the two that I have seen with my eyes, are these two that I have mentioned.

MR RICHARD: Was it light or dark in the mountain?

MR MAHLANGU: It was dark.

MR RICHARD: Was it dark so that you could see nothing or dark so that you could see a little bit, full moon light?

MR MAHLANGU: It was dark, but one could see someone close to you.

MR RICHARD: If you knew that person, was it sufficiently light to be able to recognise the people you knew?

MR MAHLANGU: If you knew someone and if he or she was next to you, you will tell who it was.

MR RICHARD: Now, what happened next? You are at the mountain, people had surrounded her and singing and toyi-toying, what happened?

MR MAHLANGU: After they had taken her and surrounded her, I couldn't see properly what was happening to her, but what I saw was Police vans and at that time, she was on fire.

MR RICHARD: Then what happened?

MR MAHLANGU: When the Police were approaching the mountain, everyone started running away.

MR RICHARD: What happened to Emma Mtsweni?

MR MAHLANGU: I wouldn't be able to say what happened to Emma Mtsweni because all I know is that she was on fire.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, at page 18 of the bundle, which is your application for amnesty, at paragraph 10(a) you say -

&#9;&#9;"... the murder was committed under the leadership of the Youth",

&#9;why do you say the murder was committed under the leadership of the Youth?

MR MAHLANGU: Would you please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: At paragraph 10(a) of your application for amnesty, there is a section which says "State the political objective that was intended to be achieved", your answer starts by saying and I quote -

&#9;&#9;"... the murder was committed under the leadership of the Youth",

&#9;and then it goes on. My question is what and how was the murder committed under the leadership of the Youth?

MR MAHLANGU: When it was first reported that Emma Mtsweni was a witch, it came to be known to the comrades. That is why I am saying it happened under the instructions of the Youth.

MR RICHARD: When somebody was reported to the Youth League of the ANC in your area to be a witch, what did the ANC Youth League believe should be done with that person?

MR MAHLANGU: We as a Youth were responsible to resolve those problems.

MR RICHARD: In what way did a witch pose a problem to the ANC, how did she threaten the ANC?

MR MAHLANGU: We Youth or the ANC Youth, realising that bewitching and killing our parents was going to lead to us being orphans and therefore we couldn't continue development and some of us were going to be orphans and street kids and the organisation was not going to prosper and it was going to be divided.

MR RICHARD: And then at the same paragraph of your application, after the phrase that I have read you say under the leadership of the Youth, and then I continue-

&#9;&#9;"... to help the community by they were not under by any organisation, but the government was the main source of that murder."

&#9;Would you like to read what I have just read out? Read it carefully because my question is what do you mean by that?

CHAIRPERSON: Read it with 10(b), let him read 10(b) too, the last few lines.

MR RICHARD: The Chairperson requests that you read 10(a) and 10(b).

CHAIRPERSON: Have you read it? Did you write it out yourself?

MR MAHLANGU: Exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, carry on.

MR RICHARD: Do you confirm what you said there?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: The other thing that I was going to ask you is you have heard what other witnesses have said about what the ANC Youth should do with moloi's, do you associate yourself with that comment or do you differ in any way from those comments?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do confirm that and I do agree with them.

MR RICHARD: So you agree with the statement that moloi's were seen as opponents of the liberation struggle and people that should be killed for the same reasons as an impimpi should be dealt with in that way?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Now again a general question. You have heard the evidence of previous witnesses, both today and yesterday about what a moloi and a ngaka is and the differences between them. Do you agree with what was said?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do agree.

MR RICHARD: Do you believe in witchcraft?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Did you agree with the killing of Emma Mtsweni?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: And how did you think her killing would further the interests of the struggle?

MR MAHLANGU: I knew that the Youth was getting most of their support from their parents and since we were involved in a struggle, it couldn't have been easier for us to do so without parents.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, I turn to page 19 of the bundle, paragraph 11(2) and I ask you to read through 11(2)(a). Thank you. There you say - 

&#9;&#9;"... no order was given, but just because the community was helpless, we the Youth decided to eradicate anything in the way of our community."

&#9;Did you hear anyone give an order or didn't you?

MR MAHLANGU: I didn't hear anyone.

MR RICHARD: How did the Youth come to a decision to eradicate witches or particularly Mrs Emma Mtsweni?

MR MAHLANGU: Please repeat your question.

MR RICHARD: Here you say -

&#9;&#9;"... we the Youth decided to eradicate anything in the way of our community."

&#9;I am asking the following questions - what decision was made, where it was made, who made it and how it was communicated to the rest of the world? Let's start with what was the decision?

MR MAHLANGU: The decision which was taken was that we should remove anyone who becomes an obstacle in the struggle.

MR RICHARD: Was that decision made on the 2nd of January 1991 or at some time before or after that?

MR MAHLANGU: It was our policy, or let me say we believed long before that that witches and informers were supposed to be removed. This was our policy, we comrades.

MR RICHARD: Now, to whom was that decision communicated? Who did you tell about your decision?

MR MAHLANGU: I think everyone at that time, more especially every Youth knew that a moloi or a witch was someone to be burnt.

MR RICHARD: Now my last question, it was for that reason that once you have heard that Emma Mtsweni was a witch, you decided that she should be killed or the Youth around you decided that she should be killed? Am I not correct?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, if I may come in at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MTANGA: The Interpreters are requesting a short adjournment.&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9; 

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us a minute, perhaps we can finish off this witness, perhaps there are not many or any questions. Just a minute. 

MR MOKOENA: Thank you Chairperson, I don't have any questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokoena. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have no questions, Chairperson.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

MR SIBANYONI: You say you joined the ANC Youth League in 1987 or 1988, did I understand you correctly?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Was there a branch of the Youth League at that stage?

MR MAHLANGU: No, we didn't have a branch, but we had a branch nearby.

MR SIBANYONI: But political organisations were unbanned only during 1990, how would there have been some structures of the ANC in your area in 1987 or 1988?

MR MAHLANGU: Would you please repeat your question?

MR SIBANYONI: Political organisations were unbanned during February 1990, how could it have been, how is it possible that there was a structure of the ANC in your area by the year you said you joined the ANC Youth League?

MR MAHLANGU: What I know is that I have been a supporter of the ANC since the time of the Mbokodo. Even though the ANC was banned.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you not perhaps referring to the United Democratic Front, the UDF which was active during that time when the ANC was banned?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes, I am talking about the UDF.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, just one. Did you believe that people who were witches, identified themselves or sympathised with any political formation such as the Nationalist Party government that was in power at the time, or any political grouping?

MR MAHLANGU: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Can you explain that?

MR MAHLANGU: The reason I am saying that you can refer to them as informers, because in fact they were in a way similar to informers, therefore you can say they were supporting the NP.

ADV SANDI: Did you know the political affiliation of Emma Mtsweni, if she had any?

MR MAHLANGU: No, I don't.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?

MR RICHARD: No re-examination, thank you Chair.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mahlangu, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We will stand down for 10 minutes, just to give everybody a chance to re-adjust themselves.

MR RICHARD: I am indebted, thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION:

MR RICHARD: Mr Chairperson, the next, that is the last applicant in this particular series, Charles Michael Skosana. May I call him?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: I call Mr Skosana.

NAME:&#9;&#9;&#9;CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM650/96

---------------------------------------------------------------------------MR RICHARD: May Mr Skosana be sworn in?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Skosana, just remain standing. You are Charles Michael Skosana, is that correct?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, that is correct.

CHARLES MICHAEL SKOSANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may sit down. Yes, Mr Richard?

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Mr Skosana, in and during the end of 1990 and the early part of 1991, were you affiliated to any particular political party or organisation?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, I was a supporter of a political organisation.

MR RICHARD: If so, which one?

MR SKOSANA: The ANC.

MR RICHARD: Were you a member or a supporter?

MR SKOSANA: A supporter.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I just suggest, maybe he brings the microphone a little bit closer to him. Thank you.

MR RICHARD: How did you participate in the activities of the ANC, what did you do to show your support?

MR SKOSANA: I was following the ANC because I used to attend rallies and meetings and what was said in those meetings, I used to follow that. That is all.

MR RICHARD: Now were you also born and educated and reared at Pieterskraal?

MR SKOSANA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: You have heard the evidence of the previous applicants about where and what is Pieterskraal, and do you confirm what they are saying?

MR SKOSANA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: You also heard the evidence of the previous applicants, concerning what is a moloi, ngaka, a sangoma, do you confirm what they say?

MR SKOSANA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: You personally, do you believe in witchcraft?

MR SKOSANA: On those days, I used to believe that there is witchcraft.

MR RICHARD: Now I have asked many questions about what the ANC Youth at the time thought should happen to impimpi's and moloi's. At that time, is that what you thought, the same as your previous applicants?

MR SKOSANA: Informers and witches were the targets of being burnt.

MR RICHARD: Why were they to be burnt?

MR SKOSANA: Because they were not the people accepted in the community. They were dividing the community.

MR RICHARD: When did you personally first become aware of Emma Mtsweni and the fact that she was talking of witchcraft?

MR SKOSANA: I heard for the first time in the last meeting.

MR RICHARD: When you say the last meeting, which meeting was that? Where was that meeting?

MR SKOSANA: The meeting was in a school.

MR RICHARD: What stage of that meeting did you join the meeting?

MR SKOSANA: Towards the end because I was from work.

MR RICHARD: At what time of the day was that?

MR SKOSANA: At about six.

MR RICHARD: Now from whom did you - when you arrived at the meeting, what did you do to find out what was happening?

MR SKOSANA: When I arrived, it was the time when the cars were on their way to fetch the deceased from her home.

MR RICHARD: Did you go with the cars to fetch the deceased?

MR SKOSANA: No, I didn't, I was left in the school.

MR RICHARD: Where did you go next?

MR SKOSANA: We waited for them until they came back, where they went to fetch the deceased.

MR RICHARD: While you were waiting, what did you learn, what was happening, why did they need to fetch Emma Mtsweni?

MR SKOSANA: When they left for the deceased's home, they didn't come back to the school, they went to Vaalbank and when they came back to the school, that is when they were with her.

MR RICHARD: While you were waiting at the school, did you talk to people?

MR SKOSANA: There were no talks, but there were singing and chanting.

MR RICHARD: What was the singing and chanting?

MR SKOSANA: They were singing about Thambo.

MR RICHARD: Did they sing about impimpi's and moloi's and witches?

MR SKOSANA: When they came back from Vaalbank, that is when they started singing about impimpi's and witches.

MR RICHARD: When they came back from Vaalbank, for how long were you still at the school before you went somewhere else?

MR SKOSANA: We stayed there until at about eight o'clock.

MR RICHARD: They came back from Vaalbank and then you all left as you have heard, for the mountain. From the time they came back from Vaalbank to the time you left for the mountain, how much time passed, was it one hour, five minutes, 15, 20 minutes, approximately?

MR SKOSANA: When they came back, they stopped at the gate and they just said they cannot discuss this matter in the school, because they had passed Police stations, therefore we should go to the mountain.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you go to the mountain?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: Why did you go to the mountain?

MR SKOSANA: I had to go together with the comrades.

MR RICHARD: Why did you have to go?

MR SKOSANA: I was also part of the comrades.

MR RICHARD: Now, do you know why they were taking Emma to the mountain?

MR SKOSANA: Emma was questioned about witchcraft.

MR RICHARD: How did you go to the mountain?

MR SKOSANA: We were following the cars behind.

MR RICHARD: Now at the mountain,w hat did you see happening?

MR SKOSANA: She was taken out of the car, July took a five litre container and gave it to Victor.

MR RICHARD: Sorry, who took a five litre container?

MR SKOSANA: July.

MR RICHARD: July? Thank you. What did Victor do with that container?

MR SKOSANA: He took Emma into a certain bush and that is when we all followed.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe if you can explain what you mean by (indistinct), what structure is that one?

MR SKOSANA: It is a forest, a bush like place.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe let me just finish what I wanted to ask.

MR RICHARD: Sorry.

MR SIBANYONI: We have never heard from these other applicants, was she, that is Emma, was she walking on her own, was she maybe fastened, what was the position with her?

MR SKOSANA: As she was alighting from the car, she wasn't fastened, she had her blanket in her arm and Victor took her and pushed her inside the forest.

MR SIBANYONI: What was her physical condition, was she too old or was she able just to walk normally?

MR SKOSANA: She wasn't an elderly, but she was aged, even though she wasn't that much old, I can approximate to 50 years.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Richard. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR RICHARD: Did she go with the comrades voluntarily?

MR SKOSANA: I don't think she came willingly because as she was questioned in that forest as to whether she had done this, she said yes, but she wasn't the only one, there was someone also involved, his name is Nkabinde Mahlangu.

MR RICHARD: Did you, were you near when she was questioned, could you hear what was happening?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, I was closer because I wanted to listen and find out if the allegations were true.

MR RICHARD: What did you hear?

MR SKOSANA: She answered and the comrades said Mahlangu was also supposed to be fetched in order for him to be questioned, because the allegations were that she had got the muti from Mahlangu.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. What happened when she said what she said, what happened next?

MR SKOSANA: July had already gone back and also Mahlangu's son had left with a group of comrades to fetch his father.

MR RICHARD: What happened to Emma?

MR SKOSANA: At that time, a petrol was being poured over her.

MR RICHARD: Who was pouring the petrol?

MR SKOSANA: Victor.

MR RICHARD: Anyone else?

MR SKOSANA: Richard Skosana.

MR RICHARD: Anyone else?

MR SKOSANA: Janya.

MR RICHARD: After they had poured the petrol, what happened next?

MR SKOSANA: We heard the roaring of cars and we also saw lights and Speelman was still busy pouring the petrol and Jan asked me and said "Charles, don't you have a match" and I said "yes, I do have", and then he said light, for me to light the body, so I did that.

MR RICHARD: So you lit the match that set her on fire?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: Now, at page 36 of the bundle, paragraph 9(4) you say in reply to the question "nature and particulars of the act for which you apply for amnesty" -

&#9;&#9;"... the comrades were in charge of the area at that time and they accused the deceased of killing the parents of their fellow comrade."

&#9;Whose parents did they accuse her of killing?

MR SKOSANA: July Mtsweni and Speelman Mtsweni's parents.

MR RICHARD: Now lower down you say -

&#9;&#9;"... the deceased and the family were the supporters of Mbokodo which was an opponent of the UDF".

&#9;What is Mbokodo?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, it was so. She was an enemy of the comrades because they were killing comrades and we were scared that we were going to die one by one.

MR RICHARD: What does the word Mbokodo mean?

MR SKOSANA: Mbokodo is a person like an informer.

CHAIRPERSON: Just read the previous paragraph as well before you go that that one, you say that this was during the violence in the area that was opposing the previous government and Mbokodo, right? What was Mbokodo, was it an organisation?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, it was an organisation that was fighting comrades.

MR RICHARD: Who ran this organisation?

MR SKOSANA: Mbokodo was run by businessmen and they were also working with whites who owned companies and also there were informers among the Mbokodo informing on different people.

MR RICHARD: How did you know that she was a member of this organisation?

MR SKOSANA: I know her that way. I am saying that because members of the Mbokodo used to go to her house and they were doing this during the night, they were never there during the day.

MR RICHARD: I think as with the previous case, I will ask the witness to read paragraphs 10(a) and 10(b). Are you able to read?

CHAIRPERSON: Has he written it? Just ask him, just lay the basis.

MR RICHARD: Sorry, did you write what I am saying here in paragraphs 10(a) and 10(b), is that your handwriting?

MR SKOSANA: Somebody helped me.

MR RICHARD: Can you read what is written there or shall I read it to you?

MR SKOSANA: Would you please read it for me.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. There is a question which asks "please state the political objective sought to be achieved", your answer there was -

&#9;&#9;"... law and order was achieved. People should know that the killing of others by means of witchcraft, would not be tolerated. More specifically when they killed the next-of-kin of the comrades, this affects the soldiers of the liberation struggle."

&#9;And then the next paragraph asks the question "your justification for regarding such acts, omissions or offences as associated with a political objective?"

&#9;Is the Translator in step with me?

INTERPRETER: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Your answer -

&#9;&#9;"... any person affecting the family of a comrade would make himself/herself potentially target of the comrade. The family whose children have dedicated themselves, the family whose are members of the UDF, who were fighting for the struggle are always protected by UDF. No matter who is touching them, we had a slogan that says an injury to one is an injury to all. Therefore the comrade took a decision after the death of my parents, to avenge their death. I was arrested before the deceased was killed. The Police arrested me because of my political activities. The leadership of the region took the family's decision at a meeting at the Egukhanyeni Primary School, therefore I request help, forgiveness."

&#9;Do you remember that being written?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, I do remember.

MR RICHARD: The person who helped you to write that, was that a lawyer or if not a lawyer, who was the person who helped you?

MR SKOSANA: It was a lawyer.

MR RICHARD: And where did the lawyer come to see you?

MR SKOSANA: I think he was from the Minister of Justice.

MR RICHARD: Were you in jail at the time? Do you remember his or her name?

MR SKOSANA: I think I do remember his name, his last name is Mashishi, I don't remember his first name.

MR RICHARD: Tell me, did he explain the meanings of the questions before you spoke?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, he was explaining to me.

MR RICHARD: Did he suggest what answers you should give or did you just tell him what your answer was after you understood the question?

MR SKOSANA: I was telling him and then he was writing down and later he was reading it to me.

MR RICHARD: So are you happy that what I have read, is what you said and he wrote down?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, it is.

MR RICHARD: Now, my next question then is very straight forward and simple, how do you think that the killing of Emma Mtsweni assisted the ANC struggle for liberation of South Africa?

MR SKOSANA: Emma's death showed that the Youth can manage to develop the country and also the fact that the youth can educate themselves because they were not concentrating on school, they were concentrating on crimes and stealing goods from other people.

MR RICHARD: Now, there on the side of the mountain, did you see any ANC leaders or UDF leaders?

MR SKOSANA: No, there were no UDF members, there were ANC members.

MR RICHARD: Did any of them give any instructions?

MR SKOSANA: What they said was that a witch is someone to be burnt.

MR RICHARD: What was your reaction to that instruction, did you agree with it or disagree with it?

MR SKOSANA: I agreed with that.

MR RICHARD: Who were those leaders who gave those instructions?

MR SKOSANA: Skosh and others, and I couldn't see others properly, but these ones were close by.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just whilst you are mentioning names, what about Mashiane whose name you mentioned at page 46?

MR SKOSANA: Mashiane is a chief in Pieterskraal.

MR RICHARD: Where was Mashiane that day, that night?

MR SKOSANA: When this happened, it was after a meeting which I arrived just after it had finished. 

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Richard, are you going to ask him a question on something else?

MR RICHARD: Go ahead please.

ADV SANDI: Okay. Mashiane, was he a member of the ANC because that is what you say at page 46?

MR SKOSANA: Mashiane was working hand in hand with the chief Mabhoko. He knew about the meeting.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but is it correct that he gave an order as an ANC leader?

MR SKOSANA: The saying that a witch is someone to be killed, an impimpi to be killed ...

MR RICHARD: May I ask you this question? In the bundle there are a number of applications for amnesty, the first one which ends at page 37 was signed by you in Pretoria on the 21st of November 1996 and then later on, at pages 38 to 41 we have another one, signed on the 6th of May 1996 and then on page 42 through to 48, we have another one signed on the 9th of October 1996. 

&#9;Why did you complete so many application forms?

MR SKOSANA: I received forms, they were in my name.

MR RICHARD: Who brought those forms to you?

MR SKOSANA: They were posted to the prison.

MR RICHARD: You take the one, November 1996, did you tell Mr Mashishi that you had completed other forms?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, I did. I explained to him that I had already filled other application forms and I had already sent them.

MR RICHARD: How did Mr Mashishi come to see you, did you ask him to come or did he come without any arrangements, did somebody send him to you?

MR SKOSANA: I telephoned him to come and help me in prison and I told him I had a problem and he came to see me. He asked me if I had filled in the indemnity forms and I told him "yes", and he told me he was going to bring other forms because it may happen that the first one which I filled, was not, never reached the destination.

MR RICHARD: Did Mr Mashishi say he should get the other forms that you had filled in and have a look at them before completing any more forms or did he just proceed to complete that one dated November 1996?

MR SKOSANA: I had already sent other forms and I explained to him and he said to me probably they were not received, it is better for me to fill in other forms.

MR RICHARD: Did you ask him to explain why certain questions were asked and did he explain the meaning of the questions, why it was being asked?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, where is this taking us to?

MR RICHARD: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Where is this taking us to?

MR RICHARD: My last question is which form do you stand by, a contradiction?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he hasn't completed any of these things. You can see from his signature he can hardly write. Mr Skosana, did you complete any of these forms in your own handwriting, did you write any form, or did other people always help to you complete these things?

MR SKOSANA: They were helping me.

CHAIRPERSON: So he hasn't completed any of these forms, so where does it take us?

MR RICHARD: One more question. So you were happy with the last form you completed with Mr Mashishi and that is your application?

MR SKOSANA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: Now in Mashishi's form there is a question which says "did you benefit in any way" and your answer was -

&#9;&#9;"... yes, our aim has been done, therefore we benefitted."

&#9;Did that mean that you got any monetary benefit or financial benefit or privileges or did you just win the struggle?

MR SKOSANA: I benefitted in the struggle.

MR RICHARD: I believe I have canvassed this in shorthand and if I continue, I am asking him to repeat evidence that is incorporated by referring to the others. I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD&#9;&#9;&#9; 

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mokoena, do you have any questions?

MR MOKOENA: No questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mokoena. Ms Mtanga?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: I have one question Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MTANGA: Mr Skosana, will I be correct to say the reason that you link the death of Emma Mtsweni to the ANC's political struggle, it is because - I am saying will I be correct to say that the reason that you link the death of Emma Mtsweni to the ANC's political struggle is because the deaths of the parents of the comrades affected the welfare of the comrades?

MR SKOSANA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Is there another reason apart from this, that you would say was the reason why you killed, why she was killed by yourself and other comrades?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, we killed her because she wasn't supposed to do that, because an injury to one is an injury to all. This affected us, it affected the people who were not entirely involved.

MS MTANGA: Tell me what would be the situation where a person, let's assume in this case, Emma had beaten up the parents of July and Ernest Mtsweni, would the comrades have been involved in this instance to kill her?

MR SKOSANA: If you have beaten someone, there is a difference in beating and killing.

MS MTANGA: What would happen if she had beaten them to death?

MR SKOSANA: What she did was evil because she had killed and she killed two people, we killed her because we were also preventing her from killing us.

MS MTANGA: If she had beaten them to death, Mr Skosana, what would you and the organisation have done about her?

MR SKOSANA: We were going to sit down with her because we were going to understand that an accident doesn't always happen and an accident is something that happens to everyone. One cannot run away from that. I may just take a walk and meet an accident.

MS MTANGA: I am not saying they would have had an accident, I am saying she would have beaten them up to death.

CHAIRPERSON: Assume she wasn't aged, she was a very strong woman and she would just beat these two people to death, just imagine that.

MR SKOSANA: It means she was also going to be beaten to death.

MS MTANGA: Can I conclude for you the reason for you to kill her in this situation is because she would have caused the death of your fellow comrades, and therefore affected your fellow comrades' welfare?

MR SKOSANA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. The fact that she was apparently associated with Mbokodo, did that play any role in the action that was taken against her?

MR SKOSANA: Her witchcraft was the reason she was killed and also that she was part of the organisation which we opposed. In meetings we were told that we were opposing this other organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Mbokodo?

MR SKOSANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any other questions from the Panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Tell me, at the mountain was she confronted about the fact that she was a supporter of Mbokodo?

MR SKOSANA: No, she was not questioned anything about her association with Mbokodo, because at the mountain it was out of control.

ADV SANDI: When did you become aware for the first time that she was a member of Mbokodo?

MR SKOSANA: Members of Mbokodo used to go to her home at night, they never went there during the day.

ADV SANDI: I suppose from what you are saying, you must have seen these members of Mbokodo coming to her house at night, when was that?

MR SKOSANA: I used to see them all the time, and their cars, parked outside her yard.

ADV SANDI: Who were these people from Mbokodo who were coming to her house at night?

MR SKOSANA: They were people from Ndebele, people who came after the violence in 1996.

ADV SANDI: What did you do with that information when you became aware that she had this association with members of Mbokodo?

MR SKOSANA: We watched her and the fact that her children never attended any of the meetings and we were just watching that her members do not kill our members.

ADV SANDI: You say you were watching her, who was that, who are you referring to when you say "we were watching her", yourself and who?

MR SKOSANA: I alone.

ADV SANDI: Was it just yourself?

MR SKOSANA: I raised this in a meeting and it was said that one of her children should join our organisation so that we know what is going on within the Mbokodo.

ADV SANDI: You say you raised it at a meeting, was anyone of your co-applicants present at that meeting, where you raised this thing?

MR SKOSANA: No.

ADV SANDI: Her association as you said, with Mbokodo, was it one of the reasons why she was killed?

MR SKOSANA: No, that is not. I knew this and so she was just my enemy because of this fact because I hated Mbokodo members. Whenever you come across them, they would chase you at night.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but tell me at that time would it not, if a person associated with such a body, the Mbokodo, which was opposed to the liberation struggle, wouldn't that have been something everyone would know in the community?

MR SKOSANA: The community knew about the fact that she had associated herself with Mbokodo, but the community didn't know what time of the day the Mbokodo members were coming to her house, but one would see Mbokodo's cars parked outside her house and if you were walking nearby, you would be chased away, not knowing who the people were who were chasing you.

ADV SANDI: I don't know, if I follow the evidence correctly here, you seem to be the only one who claims that the deceased had an association with the Mbokodo? Why would the other applicants not mention such a thing, that the deceased had this association with the Mbokodo which was seen as a political enemy in that struggle?

MR SKOSANA: I was her neighbour.

ADV SANDI: If the deceased had not made this confession that she was a witch, would she still have been killed?

MR SKOSANA: No, she wasn't.

ADV SANDI: She was killed only because of the so-called confession that she made that she was a witch, is that what you are saying?

MR SKOSANA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mahlangu whom she implicated, was that person known to you?

MR SKOSANA: I first heard of Mahlangu Nkabinde and I couldn't understand why one person had two surnames. I heard it for the first time that he was Mahlangu Nkabinde.

ADV SANDI: What did you know about the person concerned,t his Mahlangu? Did you know if he was a person of any political association? Did you know if he had any skill or expertise to use muti?

MR SKOSANA: No, the first time I heard about Mahlangu is when she made the confession that Mahlangu gave her the muti to kill the parents of July and Speelman.

ADV SANDI: Thank you very much. Thank you Mr Chairman. No further questions.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you. Mr Skosana, I see on page 35 you say you were a supporter of the Intandwe Isizwe Party which was under the ANC. Was Intandwe Isizwe Party active in your area?

MR SKOSANA: Yes, it was present.

MR SIBANYONI: On page 36, on paragraph, sub-paragraph 4, the second paragraph thereof you said -

&#9;&#9;"... this was during the violence in the area that was opposing the previous government and Mbokodo"

&#9;was the conflict between Intandwe Isizwe party on the one hand and Mbokodo on the other hand?

MR SKOSANA: There were conflicts between Mbokodo and Intandwe Isizwe and the ANC.

MR SIBANYONI: And then on page 38 you say you were a member of the Pieterskraal Civic Organisation which was an affiliate of SANCO, is that the information you gave to the person who was assisting you to complete the form?

MR SKOSANA: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: Then on page 40 you say -

&#9;&#9;"... the Civic Organisation instructed that the area of Pieterskraal had a problem of witchcraft and which had to be eradicated."

&#9;At what stage did this Civic Organisation take such a decision, when was it?

MR SKOSANA: It started in 1988, that is when they started resolving the witchcraft problem, they instructed that the witches should leave the area.

MR SIBANYONI: On page 37 you mention Masoldier, who was Masoldier, what were his full names? Page 37, paragraph 11(a)?

MR SKOSANA: Masoldier is one of the accused in this case, but he has then deceased.

MR SIBANYONI: Who were the leaders of the Civic Organisation?

INTERPRETER: Would you please repeat the question?

MR SIBANYONI: Who were the leaders of the Civic Organisation in your area?

MR SKOSANA: Emma Sibego, the one that I know.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Richard, any re-examination?

MR RICHARD: No re-examination.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Skosana, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for the applicants?

MR RICHARD: That is the case for the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokoena, any witnesses?

MR MOKOENA: No witnesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: No witnesses Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Richard, have you got any submissions on the merits of these applications?

MR RICHARD: I will be brief.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RICHARD IN ARGUMENT: I start by referring to Section 20 of the Act which compels an Amnesty Tribunal to grant amnesty if three things are satisfied. The application complies with the requirements of this Act; the third one the applicants have made a full disclosure. In this matter I think there is no dispute that both those aspects have been satisfied.

&#9;The second one, (b), ought to be read with paragraph, sorry Section 2(g) of the same Section which says -

&#9;&#9;"... any person who associated himself or herself with any act or admission committed for the purposes referred to in paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (d) and (e) and (f) ..."

&#9;When we look at the killing of Emma Mtsweni, I believe it has been established that on the basis that I have argued in the previous matter, she was bona fide and honestly perceived by the applicants to be an opponent of the ANC and that her killing would achieve the political objective of furthering the ANC's objectives and ideals.

&#9;We have five witnesses who gave coherent evidence to the fact that she was identified as a witch or moloi, we have it before us that if a person is pointed out to be a witch or a moloi, there is very little that that individual can do about it. The perception then by the applicants was that for that reason and that reason alone, she was seen to be the equivalent of an impimpi and I could argue further as I did last night, a Security Force personnel, an apartheid counsellor and therefore within the framework she became a legitimate objective of an attack as contemplated by this Act.

&#9;For those reasons I believe and submit that subsection (1)(b) of Section 20 has also been complied with. The only potential exception to my argument might be the first person, the first applicant to give evidence today.

&#9;There he has said that whether or not the youth of the area, the comrades had become involved, he might have done an act. However, I believe his evidence needs to be seen in the context of that particular time. As the last applicant has said, there was perceived to be a witchcraft problem in that area which is corroborated by the various reports that we had reference to. It was perceived that the killing of witches would achieve both the subjective and political objective and when I refer to subsection (g) of subsection 20(2), I have no difficulty in making the submission that the first applicant was a person who associated himself with the acts which fall within the definition of (2)(a) and as read with 20(1)(b).

&#9;I can argue at length, but I believe that in view of the time, I should make the offer that I made yesterday, if the Committee would like it, I would prepare written Heads with pleasure.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should just have your say now. Your clients are in custody, we don't have the luxury of Heads or argument in these matters any more, unless it is really compelling.

MR RICHARD: I believe that the argument that I have outlined is in summary that the killing of Emma Mtsweni was an act committed with a political purpose, by persons who associated themselves with the aims and objectives of the ANC at the time, they have made a full disclosure of all relevant facts and they have complied with the requirements of the Act of Parliament and in the circumstances, are entitled to an amnesty for the murder of Emma Mtsweni.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Mokoena?

MR MOKOENA: No submission Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, I will be very brief. It is my submission that the killing of Emma Mtsweni arose from a family dispute. This can be referred from the evidence, or the applications of the three Mtsweni's. I will refer the Committee to page 2 of the bundle, that is the application of July Mtsweni, paragraph 9, subsection (a)(iv), he states there -

&#9;&#9;"... this was a family discussion and it was upon my grandma. I left the meeting still on progress and when I reached home, I was told that the deceased had been burnt."

&#9;If this is read together with the applications of Ernest and Phillip, on paragraph 9(a)(iv) of Ernest's application, page 13. Phillip also utters a similar view, that it was a family matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is common cause that it started off as a family matter, but it didn't end as a family matter.

MS MTANGA: What appears from their evidence Chairperson, is that from the onset the fact that Emma was accused of bewitching their parents, politics were never involved in that situation, it was a family debacle, and it only, they lost control of the situation only when the comrades got involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, this thing only really started developing broader when the question of witchcraft surfaced and eventually when she confessed, then it was the end of the road.

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, but the question is the family, the Mtsweni family, the witchcraft didn't arise when the comrades arrived. At the initial family meeting, they were discussing the witchcraft issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and they didn't believe that, they never thought that she would be involved in that, and from the perspective of the family members, that was really only confirmed when she admitted.

MS MTANGA: That is not so Chairperson. When July Mtsweni testified, he indicated that at the time they went to fetch Emma from Vaalbank ...

CHAIRPERSON: He was suspicious.

MS MTANGA: He was already angry and suspicious that Emma was a witch.

CHAIRPERSON: Because she had apparently run away, and he wouldn't know why would she be acting like that?

MS MTANGA: Mr Chairperson, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: But the confirmation came out of her mouth eventually.

MS MTANGA: But then the argument will also follow that there is no evidence before the Committee that will, or the basis for the applicants to link the killing of their parents by Mtsweni, to the political struggle of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, she was killed by the ANC Youth League eventually? They associate themselves with it?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, it cannot be argued that all the offences committed by political organisations, will constitute political offences.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that is true.

MS MTANGA: Yes, and this is the situation here.

CHAIRPERSON: That is true. No, we must look at the circumstances, but the fact of the matter is as I have said to you earlier, the way I understand this, it started off as a family matter, understandably so, because it concerned mother and father, and then eventually it grew into an issue which the ANC Youth League took an interest in because now it was no longer a family matter, it is matter that concerned the ANC, because here now was an indication that this person could have been one of the people that fell into the category of opponents? That is why it grew into and eventually landed up as an ANC action where these family members were not even present at the scene? She was attacked when they were back to deliver the van to the house.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, that may be so, but the fact that it was taken over by the ANC Youth League, doesn't make it a political offence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, no, I agree with you, we must look at the circumstances.

MS MTANGA: That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But it doesn't also not make it a political offence because it is a factor that comes into it, the fact that the attack was eventually taken over by the ANC, as you say quite correctly doesn't automatically mean it is a political offence, it could be a criminal matter, it could be a personal matter, they could have a personal grudge against this old lady. But by the same token it doesn't make it not a political offence, so we must look at it.

MS MTANGA: Yes, I agree with you Chairperson, but I would like to submit that perhaps the Committee should be careful in this witchcraft cases, especially in the areas of Mpumalanga and Northern Province.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS MTANGA: Where witches were killed broadly by the Youth League or by the ANC as an organisation, and my argument is that should the Committee accept a situation where a person is just, because that person is killed by the ANC Youth League for being alleged to be a witch, then that should be, it can be perceived as a political offence, it could broaden or it will open the floodgates to a lot of cases which took place in this area and which had nothing to do with politics at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I appreciate that, I appreciate that submission, that is why I said to you that that fact is not a decisive fact, we have to look at the case still. But it is just hard to imagine why these people went about and killed the deceased, it doesn't look to have been any personal grudge or any bad blood, or anything personal vis-a-vis the deceased?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would say the killing of Emma Mtsweni is in line with the material that we have received from the Commission of Enquiry and the hearing in the Mavhunga matter where it is said that at some point in the history of this province, the youth took over the killing of witches.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is why? They say the reason for that is because these people were impeding the development of their organisation and by the same token, was obstructing the political struggle that they were engaged in.

&#9;That is why I say to you, if you look at that, you have 200 people or 300 people there, the family members have left the scene, there is no indication that there was bad blood or a grudge or anything, vis-a-vis the deceased, and they are saying to us, that is the only evidence that is before us, that it was an action undertaken by the ANC Youth League where there leadership was present on the scene, one of the leaders accompanied the group that went to fetch the deceased where she was with her brother and they killed her in a typical political style killing, with a necklace.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would like to still argue that in this particular case where a person gets killed because she is a witch and she is alleged to affect the welfare of the youth in the area, the political link that is being created here, is very far fetched.

ADV SANDI: Sorry if I understand you correctly, are you saying that these ANC activists who participated in this incident, were actually used to settle a private dispute?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was just a purely criminal act?

MS MTANGA: This was a purely criminal act.

CHAIRPERSON: It had nothing to do with politics?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, it had nothing to do with politics.

CHAIRPERSON: All of these people, 200 to 300 people were somehow persuaded to indulge in a totally criminal act against an innocent person, that they had no personal reason to harm?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I find it difficult to agree that because 200 and 300 people mobilised themselves and attacked a person, then because of the numbers involved, we should sort of infer that because they were organised, then it must have been a political motive. There are many instances in these areas where people are killed and they are being killed by a group of people, and it shouldn't be argued that because there was a mobilised crowd, then it was political.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it could have been a criminal gang, it could have been the Naughty Boys or whatever, but now we need material, we need evidence.

&#9;The evidence before us suggests that this was a politically motivated matter, it wasn't a criminal matter. If you are submitting that we must disregard that and we must actually find that these people are lying to us, that they were really a bunch of criminals who had gone to execute this lady for no reason, innocent victim ...

MS MTANGA: If the Committee is of the view that if an offence is carried out by, even if it was not initially in a political context, if by the fact that it is embraced by a political organisation, then it becomes political, then I have no, I have nothing else to say.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you must, the point that I am making is that if you submit that it is not political, it is criminal, then you must persuade us in some or other way. The obstacle that I am pointing out to you is that there is certain evidence placed in front of us, and nothing else.

MS MTANGA: Well Chairperson, I will agree with you on that, because the family is not here to contradict what is said, and maybe point out to some other reason why Mrs Emma Mtsweni was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Of course it doesn't mean that because there is only one version before us, that we are forced to accept that version or accept it in its totality. We are entitled to reject a version that is put before us which doesn't persuade us and doesn't satisfy us, and that is why I am saying you've got to actually put something that is compelling, before us, so that if you want us to make the finding that you are arguing for.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, it is difficult for me to do that because I don't have any material evidence that I can put before the Committee, except to argue that it is, it will be quite a dangerous thing for the Committee to accept the mere fact that the offence was embraced by a political organisation, then in the absence of any other evidence, then it qualifies as a politically motivated crime.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is right, an uncritical acceptance just of that evidence, that is a failure of the duty that the Committee had.

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We have to be satisfied and in order to be able to be satisfied, we have to apply our minds and be persuaded in some way that this is indeed a politically motivated and not just as you are submitting, just a random act of violence by a bunch of blood-thirsty youth who had nothing else to do on that night, but to attack the deceased? If so, then they are not entitled to amnesty.

MS MTANGA: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: We have to bear that in mind, I am with you on that submission.

MR SIBANYONI: Is it perhaps your submission that in that area witches were not legitimate targets?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, witches were legitimate targets by the youth, particularly the ANC Youth League at that time, that is the evidence that we have from the material that we have, and we have also heard from these applicants and the applicants that we had yesterday. However, I would like to refer the Committee to the argument of my learned friend in yesterday's matter where he said perhaps the Committee should make a distinction between a perception that is based on reasonable grounds in the logical sense and the perception that is based on the reasonable grounds in the cultural sense.

&#9;With that one will have to look for evidence that creates the basis for the perception that this person was a witch and her witchcraft affected the political organisation and this must have a basis in the cultural sense of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand that, we have to be satisfied at the very least, subjectively, these people first of all held the belief, the applicants, or the people that lived in that area, society, and secondly that objectively looking at the case, there was some grounds for bona fide believing that they were acting against a political opponent, because that is the requirement of the Act. It must be an act bona fide in furtherance of a struggle against a political enemy. There must at least first be the subjective belief which satisfies us and secondly, that is not the end of the story because if it is so unreasonable on the objective facts of the case, then of course we are entitled to find that there was no bona fides in the particular instance. We have to look at both those two elements.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I would like to end my submission of this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. You do raise issues of importance. Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD IN REPLY: My reply to my learned colleague is I must point out that the circumstances and context of this event was the struggle in 1990. It was a period when as I argued last night, make the country ungovernable, was the crime. 

&#9;The deceased by her confession, however it was obtained, established in the minds of the crowd and that is certainly the third, fourth and fifth applicants, that she was associated with witchcraft.

&#9;We have argued the position of witches in the context of the time before. They were perceived to be the enemy of the struggle. My learned colleague then seems to create two categories - one is the Mtsweni family and that of the others. Without labouring or repeating my previous argument, subsection 20(2)(f) speaks of any person who associates him or herself with an act committed within the meaning of subsection 20(1)(b) as read with 20(1)(2)(a), (b), (c), (d), (e) and (f).

&#9;While it might well have been as has been pointed out at the initial stages of the transaction, that it was a family affair, as soon as the talk of witchery penetrated into the comrades' minds, it became a very public affair. Whether and I believe the only one who might be affected by my learned colleague's argument is the first applicant, July ...

CHAIRPERSON: Even that, I don't quite read subsection (g) as referring to a person in the position of the first applicant in these proceedings. That seems to my mind to refer to people who don't fall into any of the categories which are spelt out there, a supporter, member of a political organisation or a liberation movement or a member of the Security Forces, those categories that are sketched in the earlier subsections of (20). If, the way I understand subsection (g), if you have somebody who stands completely outside of those categories, he is not a supporter of any political organisation, he is not a member of any political organisation, he is not a member of the Security Forces, he is outside of the formal structures of the contending Forces in the political struggle, he stands completely outside of those categories, he can still quality for amnesty if he can show that he associated himself with an act committed by a member or a supporter of a political party organisation. 

&#9;But that applicant, if I understand his evidence correctly says, he puts himself in category (a), he says I am a supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So he is not outside of the category?

MR RICHARD: Correct Chairperson, but he did make the statement which I did allude to earlier that even if the comrades had not been involved, he might have done something.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it is just indicative of his subjective state of mind. It is indicative of his view that it was justified to act against the deceased.

MR RICHARD: And clearly on the evidence before us, even if that was one of his points, a person may have more than one intention in their mind at one time.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't the determining factor that he did associate himself with the ...

MR RICHARD: That is my argument Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And he expressly testified to that effect, he said "I wasn't there, I came back with the Police, but certainly I associate myself with what happened there".

MR RICHARD: With the political motive of the context and the time.

CHAIRPERSON: And I am a supporter of the ANC so I fall into category A and my association makes it a common purpose, it is a crime that I have committed and there it seems to me that the matter rests.

MR RICHARD: My second two points were the political nature of the offence, the evidence is overwhelming. It certainly cannot be said to be far fetched. Taking the various reports that we have available, plus the evidence of these applicants, taken in conjunction and the context of evidence in other matters, I don't see any reason to doubt or be suspicious or impute fabrication to these applicants that there was a political motive.

&#9;Witches as I have already argued, were perceived to be the opponents, and that was the subjective and bona fide belief. I don't want to re-argue other matters, so I am going to leave it there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the point that Ms Mtanga quite rightly makes is that that is not really where the matter ends, because we must also be satisfied that the conduct is bona fide. So assume for example that the victim was a five year old girl, really totally harmless, then of course the objective looking at the facts in order to determine bona fides, of course will weigh more heavily against the applicant.

&#9;I think that is what she is referring to, that you have to actually go that second step as well, and you must look objectively and be satisfied that there were bona fides in these circumstances.

MR RICHARD: In this case we are not looking at a five year old girl.

CHAIRPERSON: Of course, of course.

MR RICHARD: We are looking at the age group of the typical witch.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I thought I will just illustrate the argument that Ms Mtanga raises, which to my mind is a proper approach to the exercise that we must engage in.

MR RICHARD: My answer is that on the test of bona fides, there was nothing to repugnant to logic and reason in this matter, so as to come to the conclusion that it is not bona fide, it is male fide.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Ms Mtanga argues that we are under duty not to uncritically just accept everything at face value, that we have to actually apply our minds.

MR RICHARD: That is a valid point.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think there is a difference between you ...

MR RICHARD: No, that is a valid point. And I believe on a critical examination of this evidence, in as much as there is an onus on an applicant in an amnesty application, the evidence is before the Commission to satisfy itself quite properly and critically that there was bona fides in the act.

&#9;Again we are dealing with witchcraft, witchcraft is a subjective perception. I believe the evidence is overwhelming that the perception of these applicants was that a witch was an enemy of the liberation struggle and hard as it might be, ten years after the event in a different context in time, to believe what happened then, at that time in the context of the struggle, a belief was both honest and bona fide and that is what the perception that the applicants acted with. I rest. To take it further means re-arguing this in other cases.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we appreciate you not doing that Mr Richard. There are some other matters that we must still attend to.

MR RICHARD: That is why I tried to curtail.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. That concludes the application. As you have gathered from the discussion here at the end, that it is a matter that will have to be considered, it is a matter in which a decision cannot be given immediately, but the Panel will still even given the constraints that we operate under normally, logistically, we will endeavour to formulate a decision as quickly as the circumstances permit and we will then notify the parties once that decision is available.

MR RICHARD: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: The decision is reserved. Thank you very much. These applicants can stand down at this stage, they would be excused. There is one more applicant, Mr Tladi, who is accommodated in Pretoria and we would like to finalise that matter so that the Correctional Services who have gone to great difficulty to get to the venue here, are able to be released finally, because they wouldn't have any other person to actually deal with, once Mr Tladi's case is finalised, so we would like to really deal with that one and hopefully complete it as well.

MR RICHARD: I believe we can deal with it and complete with it tonight, it is not a long matter, Chairperson. May I request the indulgence of a five minute adjournment?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will stand down just briefly, just a few minutes, just to re-arrange. We will reconvene and deal with Mr Tladi's matter.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

NAME:&#9;&#9;&#9;MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM2043/96

---------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: We will now hear the application of Magome Freddie Tladi, amnesty reference AM2043/96. The appearances are as for the previous matter. Mr Tladi, are your full names Magome Freddie Tladi?

MR TLADI: That is correct.

MAGOME FREDDIE TLADI; (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please sit down. Yes, Mr Richard?

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson. My first question Mr Tladi is the incident for which you apply for amnesty took place on the 20th of August 1992 at Maroshane. At that time, were you a member or a supporter of any political organisation?

MR TLADI: Yes, I was a follower.

MR RICHARD: And if so, which organisation did you support?

MR TLADI: I was a follower of the African National Congress.

MR RICHARD: And how did you support the ANC, what did you do to support them?

MR TLADI: I was attending rallies, consumer boycotts and strikes.

MR RICHARD: Now, in your area of Maroshane, who were, what was the ANC structure, who was the Chairperson, who were the Committee members, who held what offices?

MR TLADI: It was Rinco Masimola.

MR RICHARD: Any others?

MR TLADI: It was Rinco Masimola, I don't remember the others.

MR RICHARD: The next question is where is Maroshane, which is the nearest significant town or village to Maroshane?

MR TLADI: It is near Groblersdal.

MR RICHARD: Was Maroshane part of one of the old so-called Independent States like Lebowa, Venda or kwaNdebele?

MR TLADI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, in that area, where there still traditional structures in the sense that there was a (indistinct), sub-chiefs?

MR TLADI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Now, in that area, did people still believe at that time, in 1992, in witchcraft?

MR TLADI: Yes, they did.

MR RICHARD: Now I am correct that you have been sitting, waiting for you matter to be heard for two days now? Is that not correct? You have been waiting in this hall?

MR TLADI: I was not present yesterday.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now when I use the word moloi and ngaka, do you understand what I mean?

MR TLADI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Would you please tell us what a moloi is?

MR TLADI: A witch is somebody who is against the people's rights, he is the person who is suppressing people's rights.

MR RICHARD: In what way? How does a moloi suppress people's rights?

MR TLADI: He doesn't want people to do progressive things.

MR RICHARD: How does a moloi prevent people doing progressive things, what does a moloi use to prevent people doing progressive things?

MR TLADI: He uses muti.

MR RICHARD: What else besides suppressing rights, can a moloi in your belief system do, can a moloi do harm, kill somebody, make somebody sick?

MR TLADI: Even if he does not kill, he can make a person to be ill.

MR RICHARD: Now, for what reasons would you go and see a ngaka, a sangoma?

MR TLADI: We will go to a sangoma to find out what was happening.

MR RICHARD: And how would a sangoma find out what was happening?

MR TLADI: He is able to see or to read the divine bones.

MR RICHARD: And then if there is trouble in a neighbourhood, caused by a moloi or something, how would the ngaka, sorry the ngaka correct, what would the ngaka say?

MR TLADI: May you please repeat the question, I do not understand the question?

MR RICHARD: I have asked you the question that if a member in a village such as Maroshane wanted to know why something was wrong, how would that person go about it, you said they would go to a sangoma which is also known as an ngaka. That person then would use a method of divination such as bone throwing and come up with an answer. What sorts of answers would the ngaka come up with?

MR TLADI: He will give answers such as confirmation that that person is a witch.

MR RICHARD: Now on the 20th of August 1992 as is apparent from the record, a meeting was called in Maroshane to discuss a problem, what was the problem?

MR TLADI: The problem concerned the death of youths in the village.

MR RICHARD: These youths in the village, from what did they die?

MR TLADI: Some of them would become ill and die.

MR RICHARD: And others? You say some became ill and died, what happened to others?

MR TLADI: That is how I know how some of them died.

MR RICHARD: At page 21 of the bundle, when the Magistrate who convicted you, gave judgement and sentence, he made a comment, it was further said that this was during the same period when four young people had died mysteriously. Do you remember that?

MR TLADI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: Now, were you aware of any political affiliation of that these four young people had?

MR TLADI: I only know of two youths, but I don't know how the other two youths died.

MR RICHARD: My question was did you know of the political, not method of death, the political affiliation of any of these youths that had died mysteriously?

MR TLADI: I only knew one.

MR RICHARD: What was his political affiliation or membership?

MR TLADI: He was the supporter of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Now, it is said that these people had died mysteriously, why do you say the deaths were mysterious?

MR TLADI: May you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: The question is in the criminal proceedings, when you were sentenced to imprisonment, you said that either you or the community found the fact that four people had died mysterious, that they had died mysteriously, my question is, shy did you and others believe that their death was mysterious or strange?

MR TLADI: What was mysterious about that was because we were with those people and the following day, we learnt that they were dead.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Weren't those people sick at the time you were with them and subsequently learnt that they had died?

INTERPRETER: Honourable Chairperson, I really do not know what the applicant is saying, may I request that he become more audible.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tladi, you must speak, take that microphone closer to where you are sitting and then you must try to lift your voice, speak a bit louder so that the Interpreter can hear you in the box there. If you don't speak into the microphone, then he cannot hear, that box, you cannot hear from inside there. You can only hear on the headset, so you must speak loud so that he can hear you please. Do you understand?

MR TLADI: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

ADV SANDI: Do you want me to repeat the question?

INTERPRETER: Please Chair.

ADV SANDI: When you were with these people the night before you heard that they had died, that is the next day, weren't these people sick or were they in a perfectly healthy condition?

MR TLADI: They were healthy.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Where was this meeting held?

MR TLADI: This meeting was held at the church.

MR RICHARD: Who attended the meeting?

MR TLADI: There were many people who attended that meeting.

MR RICHARD: Were they members or supporters of any political organisation?

MR TLADI: Some of them were members of the ANC and others were just followers of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Did you, how did they call the meeting, did you put up postcards or placards or was it spread by word of mouth?

MR TLADI: We put the placards and some of them were put at the shops.

MR RICHARD: What was talked about at the meeting?

MR TLADI: We were talking about witchcraft and the death of one of the youths.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, in your placards, who did you say was invited to come and attend the meeting?

MR TLADI: The youth were invited on those placards.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR RICHARD: Did the placards have any reference to any political party on them? Did the placard say the meeting was being called by the Democratic Party, the PAC, the ANC or just say that there was a meeting being called?

MR TLADI: These placards were put there by the ANC, but all the people were invited.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now my question was at the meeting things were talked about, what was said, what were people talking about?

MR TLADI: They were talking about witchcraft and the death of youths and what should be done about that.

MR RICHARD: Who spoke at the meeting, can you give us a list of names?

MR TLADI: One of them was Rinco Masimola.

MR RICHARD: Did other people talk?

MR TLADI: And Leonard Masimola also. 

MR RICHARD: And anybody else?

MR TLADI: And Simon Rapolai.

MR RICHARD: Anyone else?

MR TLADI: And Nose Mahatsi.

MR RICHARD: Can you remember anyone else?

MR TLADI: And Jomo.

MR RICHARD: Were there more people that spoke?

MR TLADI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: These people that you have mentioned, did they belong to a political party?

MR TLADI: They were the supporters of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: How did you know that?

MR TLADI: Because they knew everything about the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Did they say they were from the ANC?

MR TLADI: They were supporters of the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, did they hold any specific portfolio's in the ANC?

MR TLADI: I only know one who had a position in the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Who was that?

MR TLADI: That is Rinco Masimola.

MR RICHARD: What position did he have?

MR TLADI: He was a Speaker.

MR RICHARD: What does the Speaker do?

MR TLADI: He was the person who normally addressed the youth. He will always give speeches at meetings.

MR RICHARD: Now I don't want to know what each one of these various people, before I come to that, one next question, how many people attended the meeting, approximately?

MR TLADI: There were many people, there could be more than 100.

MR RICHARD: Now, I don't want to know what each speaker said, but when they spoke of the death of these four young men, what did they say in short, in summary?

MR TLADI: May you please repeat that question, I don't understand the question?

MR RICHARD: The meeting was called to discuss as you have said the problem of witches and I have understood and I would like you to confirm the question of the death of these four young men. Am I correct, yes or no?

MR TLADI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: These various people spoke, I don't want to know what each one of them said, I want to know in summary, what did the speakers say about the death of the four young men in short?

MR TLADI: They were asking the people who were attending the meeting, that we should donate R10-00 so that we could go to a sangoma who will tell us who were responsible for their deaths.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. did anyone say that that is a stupid idea and shouldn't be done?

MR TLADI: We all agreed.

MR RICHARD: My next question is what did the speakers in summary say about moloi's, witches?

MR TLADI: They were saying that if those people can be caught, they should be killed.

MR RICHARD: Why did they say that?

MR TLADI: Because many youths were dying in the village.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand the belief correctly that you can only catch these people with the assistance of a sangoma?

MR TLADI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It is not possible for a normal person to be able to see a witch, you must be helped by a sangoma, would that be right?

MR TLADI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Now, did anyone talk about witches in a political context?

MR TLADI: May you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: You were speaking about going to a sangoma to find out who was a witch, I have asked another question, did anyone say anything about witches in a political context? Do you understand the question?

MR TLADI: Yes, I do. They were saying that a witch is like an impimpi, and those are the people who should be killed.

MR RICHARD: Who was saying that? Was it lots of people or just one person?

MR TLADI: Those were the people who were at the stage in that church.

MR RICHARD: So was it one person who said that, two people, four or lots of people?

MR TLADI: There were many people who were saying that.

MR RICHARD: Do you remember the names of any people who said that?

MR TLADI: Yes, I do remember some.

MR RICHARD: What were the people's names?

MR TLADI: Skinosi Mhlatsi.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

MR TLADI: Simon Rapolai.

MR RICHARD: And who else?

MR TLADI: And Georgina.

MR RICHARD: And more people who said that?

MR TLADI: Yes, there were some, but I do not remember their names.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, maybe you are proceeding on to something else, I do not know. Just one question on this. These people whose names you have mentioned, did they have anything to do with any political organisation as far as you were aware at the time?

MR TLADI: They were supporting the ANC.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone argue against them when they said that witches were the same as impimpi's, and should be killed?

MR TLADI: No one disagreed with them.

MR RICHARD: What was decided as a result of the discussions at the meeting?

MR TLADI: A decision was taken that all the people in the village should donate R10-00 so that a sangoma can be consulted.

MR RICHARD: Did people donate the R10-00 each?

MR TLADI: Yes, they did.

MR RICHARD: Then, what was the R10-00 going to be used for?

MR TLADI: This R10-00's were going to be used to pay for the sangoma.

MR RICHARD: How much money was that that you collected?

MR TLADI: It was more than R1 000-00.

MR RICHARD: In your statement, page 4 of the bundle, you say -

&#9;&#9;"... two days after the meeting some people went to see the witch-doctor ..."

&#9;do you know how many people, do you remember how many people went to see and what the witch-doctor's name was?

MR TLADI: Yes, I do remember.

MR RICHARD: How many people left to see him?

MR TLADI: On the first day the people who went to see the sangoma were myself, I was present and Oric Mahlezwani, the third one was Georgina, I forgot her surname. The fourth one was Addis Maputha. The fifth one was Dinosi Mhlatsi and the sixth one was Tseisi Tladi, the seventh one was Frederick Mhlatsi.

MR RICHARD: Who were the others?

MR TLADI: The eight one was Jomo.

MR RICHARD: How many people in total were there?

MR TLADI: We were all 15 and the 16th was the driver of this kombi.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you get to see a witch-doctor?

MR TLADI: No, we did not see the doctor.

MR RICHARD: Did you talk to him though?

MR TLADI: No, the doctor was not present when we arrived at his place, that is the first time when we went to see him, he was not present at his place.

MR RICHARD: Did you leave a message that you had been there or make an arrangement that you would come back?

MR TLADI: Yes, we did leave the message.

MR RICHARD: Did you come back to the same person or somebody else?

MR TLADI: The following day we returned to the same doctor.

MR RICHARD: Did you see him this time, did you talk to his this time?

MR TLADI: He was not present.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever get to see him?

MR TLADI: No, we did not.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever get to see any moloi or witch-doctor?

MR TLADI: It was decided that we should go and see another doctor at Sansabela and we went there because it was not far from our village and it was not far from the first doctor that we went to see.

MR RICHARD: I work out that this is the third attempt to see somebody, on this the third attempt, did you get to see this person?

MR TLADI: Yes, we did.

MR RICHARD: What did you tell the moloi, the ngaka, not the moloi, the sangoma.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his name?

MR TLADI: He was Mr Theledi.

CHAIRPERSON: What was he, was he a sangoma or was he a witch-doctor?

MR TLADI: He was a witch-doctor.

MR RICHARD: Is that a moloi or ngaka?

MR TLADI: He is the witch-doctor.

MR RICHARD: Was he a good person or a bad person?

MR TLADI: He was a good person.

MR RICHARD: Did you pay him the money?

MR TLADI: We did not pay him because he told us that ...

MR RICHARD: What did he tell you?

MR TLADI: He told us that he is not the person who can be able to help us, because we know the people who are doing those things in our village, so he is not in a position to help us, so we left.

MR RICHARD: Before you say you left, what did he say you should do?

MR TLADI: He told us that on our way, there will be something that will surprise us inside the kombi, we will see something surprising, but he told us to go ahead and go back because there was nothing that was going to harm us.

MR RICHARD: Did you find anything in the kombi?

MR TLADI: Yes.

MR RICHARD: What did you find in the kombi?

MR TLADI: We had a problem because one of us who was a leader, told us that she wanted to disembark the kombi, to go alone, and then we did not allow her to do that. We could not leave her at that place, because it was at night.

MR RICHARD: What did you find surprising?

MR TLADI: What surprised us was the fact that she wanted to disembark the kombi, she did not arrive with us at the village.

MR RICHARD: Did she ever get out of the kombi after getting into it?

MR TLADI: No, she did not because we did not allow her to do that. Then at the end, she stopped with her actions.

MR RICHARD: And how did she, what do you mean she didn't arrive with you at the village?

MR TLADI: I was also surprised why she did not want to arrive with us at the village, because we went together.

MR RICHARD: Did she just disappear from inside the kombi?

MR TLADI: No, she did not disappear.

MR RICHARD: Then, when you say she did not arrive back in your village with you, what did you mean?

MR TLADI: I say that she did not want to arrive with us at the village.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but did she eventually arrive with you, back in the village?

MR TLADI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Good. Take it from there Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. When you left the sangoma, Theledi, what did you think you should do next, what did he tell you to do about the witchcraft problem?

MR TLADI: He did not tell us what to do because he said to us we know those people.

MR RICHARD: Now, what did you decide to do because of what he said?

MR TLADI: We went back, straight to the church and the youth were still there.

MR RICHARD: What did you do there?

MR TLADI: When we arrived at the church, we gave them the report, we told them that we did not find the first doctor and then we decided to go and see Mr Theledi and Mr Theledi told us that we know the people who were causing the problem in the village.

MR RICHARD: What did the meeting then decide as a result of that information?

MR TLADI: It was decided that some people should be sent to buy petrol.

MR RICHARD: What were you going to do with the petrol?

MR TLADI: They said we were going to burn the witches.

MR RICHARD: Who did you decide were the witches, who were the witches?

MR TLADI: The witch-doctor did not tell us their names.

MR RICHARD: Who did you decide the witches, you were going to burn, were?

MR TLADI: May you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: You had bought petrol with which you were going to burn the witches. Mr Theledi had not told you who the witches were.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just keep it right there, and did you then burn any witches?

MR TLADI: Yes, there is one that we burnt, but we suspected that she was a witch because Mr Theledi didn't tell us their names.

CHAIRPERSON: All right Mr Richard, try and take it from there.

MR RICHARD: Why did you decide that that particular person was a witch if Mr Theledi hadn't told you that she was a witch?

MR TLADI: I was also surprised because the crowd just went straight to that person.

MR RICHARD: What do you mean when you say the "car just went straight to that person", please tell us?

MR TLADI: May you please repeat the question?

MR RICHARD: You said that your car just went straight to a person's house, is that not correct?

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson, I interpreted the crowd not the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Tladi, you said the crowd went straight to somebody's house, is that right. Now first tell us who is this person?

MR TLADI: She was Mrs Bathule Baphela.

CHAIRPERSON: Bathule Baphela. Let him tell us exactly what the movements were.

MR RICHARD: Please continue.

MR TLADI: As we were going there to Mrs Baphela's place, it was after six o'clock. When we arrived, some members of the crowd entered the house and others surrounded the house. We were together with her last born son, then we asked him to go and call his mother. He entered the house and called his mother, his mother was with his father. His parents came out, his mother and his father and when he came out, he had an axe in his hand and his father instructed him to leave that axe so that we could listen to what these people wanted. I also encouraged him to leave that axe.

&#9;I made it clear to him that there is nothing that he could do to that people because there were so many people in that yard. He came with his parents, his mother and his father. I was with them in front of the house, the four of us. It was myself and Mrs Bathule Baphela, her son and Mr Baphela, the senior. We were facing the crowd.

&#9;Mr Baphela, before he could ask any questions, I asked them why have they come here because they are now frightening the family. I wanted to know why are they not saying anything to him. That is when they started telling me that they came here because of witchcraft and then he asked them who was a witch. They told him that his wife was a witch.

&#9;He told the crowd that because he was not always at home, he was working elsewhere, "I ask for forgiveness" and soon thereafter chaos ensued, they started throwing stones and Mr Baphela was also struck by a knopkierie, I could not see who struck him with the knopkierie. It was all chaos in the yard because people were throwing stones. I almost injured myself because I was standing with them.

MR RICHARD: What happened to Mrs Baphela?

MR TLADI: Mrs Baphela was taken by the crowd, they wanted to know from her who were her accomplices and others were having petrol and they were giving her petrol to drink. As we went out of the yard ...

MR RICHARD: What happened as you went out of the yard?

MR TLADI: They were asking her questions, they wanted to know her accomplices and her response was that "I am not a witch, instead I am being bewitched because they even killed my son".

MR RICHARD: What did the crowd do?

MR TLADI: They forced her to drink the petrol and dosing her with petrol. As we were passing her next-door neighbour, she tried to run away and she was struck by a knopkierie, Freddie struck her with a knopkierie and she fell down.

MR RICHARD: And what happened next?

MR TLADI: I don't know whether she lost consciousness, I don't know whether it was because she was struck with a knopkierie, but she was taken out of that yard. They were dragging her and they were singing songs normally sung by comrades.

MR RICHARD: What were the songs?

MR TLADI: The one that I remember is the one that says (indistinct)

MR RICHARD: They dragged her out of the yard, what happened next?

MR TLADI: She was dragged out of the yard and at that time there was nothing that I could do or explain, so the only thing that I could do at that time was to take that petrol container and douse her with petrol. I did that. I doused her with petrol.

MR RICHARD: What did you do next? Did you or somebody else set fire to the petrol?

MR TLADI: After I had done that, I retreated but I realised that she was already burning. I didn't see who actually burnt her.

MR RICHARD: Why did people decide that Mrs Baphela was a witch, why did they suspect her of being a witch? Was she doing anything suspicious, was there anything strange about her?

MR TLADI: There is nothing that she did because I have never seen her doing anything that would make her to be suspected as a witch.

MR SIBANYONI: Why did you personally douse her with petrol?

MR TLADI: I don't know what made me douse her with petrol.

MR RICHARD: Did anyone tell you to do that?

MR TLADI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it necessary to do so?

MR TLADI: It was necessary for me to do that, like I have explained before, I really do not know why I did that.

CHAIRPERSON: That is why I am asking you, they have already given her petrol to drink, they have already doused her with petrol, was it necessary for you to also douse her with petrol?

MR TLADI: It was not necessary for me to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Sir, there is only one last line of questioning that I want to go down with. You said you were surprised that the crowd went straight to Mrs Baphela's house. Why were you surprised?

MR TLADI: What surprised me was that I did not know why they were going straight to her place, like I have explained before, Mr Theledi did not reveal the name of any person who was responsible for witchcraft in our village. That is what surprised me, because even when we arrived at the church, we did not name any person as a witch.

MR RICHARD: Were you privately aware of anything that Mrs Baphela might have done to make people suspicious of her, jealous of her or believe that she was a witch?

MR TLADI: No, there is nothing that I know.

MR RICHARD: Now, why do you think the killing of Mrs Baphela was political?

MR TLADI: It is because the way this incident took place, everything was performed by the comrades and the ANC Youth League and the way they were toyi-toying.

MR RICHARD: Did you simply get carried away?

MR TLADI: May you please explain the question, I don't understand the question.

MR RICHARD: You were part of a crowd of people who went to Mrs Baphela's house, there was ANC youth and others and you knew that you had been trying to find a witch? You threw petrol on Mrs Baphela, were you simply carried away by the emotion and the feelings of the crowd at the time?

ADV SANDI: Sorry before you answer that, I thought he has told us for at least about two times, that he does not know why he did that?

MR RICHARD: Thank you, I withdraw the question. In your application for amnesty at page 2 you say -

&#9;&#9;"... in this way we were ordered to burn her by the leader Rinco Masimola and I and Simon Rapula, Leonard Masimola, John Mekameng and others at plus minus 100 in number ...

&#9;what do you mean by that? What did Mr Rinco Masimola order you to do?

MR TLADI: He told us that people like her should be burnt.

MR RICHARD: Did he mention her name?

MR TLADI: No, he did not.

MR RICHARD: Then why, what do you mean by "people like her", what was she like?

MR TLADI: Are you referring to Rinco or Mrs Baphela?

MR RICHARD: You have said he ordered that "people like her" should be treated as you did. What do you mean by saying "people like her", what was she like?

MR TLADI: I explained before that she was just suspected to be a witch.

MR SIBANYONI: What were Rinco Masimola's specific words, what did Masimola say?

MR TLADI: He said people who are involved in witchcraft should be burnt and killed.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Then I go to paragraphs 10(a) and 10(b) at page 2 - "state political objective sought to be achieved", there you stated -

&#9;&#9;"... as I mentioned, I was an instrumental organ, I would have to do whatever I was ordered to do, do many activities achieved by the organisation, part of liberation ..."

&#9;And at paragraph (b) you carry on to say in reply to the question "your justification for regarding such acts as one associated with a political objective", you answer was -&#9;&#9;"... it was not my intention, it was the order of the organisation as it was happening throughout the country. I would not have to do it on my own, it was a political procedure as the organisation was against this."

&#9;What did you mean when you wrote that? Are you meaning that if you were ordered to kill witches as part of the liberation, you would kill witches?

MR TLADI: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: Then at the end of the paragraph (b) -

&#9;&#9;"... it was a political procedure as the organisation was against this."

&#9;Are you saying that you believed as at 1992, that the ANC was against witches?

MR TLADI: I believe the ANC was against impimpi's.

MR RICHARD: Did you believe that witches had to be dealt with the same way as impimpi's?

MR TLADI: Yes, I do.

MR RICHARD: And then when you say "it was not my intention, it was an order of the organisation, it was happening throughout the country", what was happening throughout the country?

MR TLADI: Impimpi's were burnt throughout the country.

MR RICHARD: What happened to witches throughout the northern province?

MR TLADI: They were also burnt.

MR RICHARD: Is that what was happening throughout the country, and you would not have done a witch burning on your own?

MR TLADI: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD&#9;&#9;&#9; 

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Have you got any questions, Mr Mokoena?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOKOENA: Thank you Chairperson, I do have some questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Go ahead.

MR MOKOENA: Mr Tladi, to which political party was the deceased affiliated?

MR TLADI: I do not know which organisation she was supporting.

MR MOKOENA: Now did you consider her as your political opponent? Did you consider her as your political opponent?

MR TLADI: I have already explained that I did not know in which organisation she was.

MR MOKOENA: Okay. Let me for the purposes of this question give you the benefit of the doubt that witches were political opponents of say the ANC. Now, given the fact that she was not even pointed out by Theledi, she was not even named by Theledi, would you still say, would you agree with me that she was never a political opponent?

MR TLADI: Yes, I would agree with you.

MR MOKOENA: If you agree to that one, would you also agree with me if I say at the meeting when a spontaneous decision was taken to go and burn her, that the mob could have been influenced by one or two individuals who had personal grudges against her?

MR TLADI: I would agree with you.

MR MOKOENA: Let me come to the beginning of your testimony, what would be your comment if someone comes here to testify and say that as at that date, 1992, there was no structure at Maroshane, ANC structure?

MR TLADI: I would not disagree with him because I was not residing there all the time, I was working outside.

MR MOKOENA: If called upon to testify, Rinco Masimola will deny that he was ever a leader of the Youth League of that area. 

MR TLADI: I would not agree with him because he was the person who was addressing the meeting as a leader there.

MR MOKOENA: How many ANC meetings did you attend? Let's forget about these ones where you sought to identify witches.

MR TLADI: I have said this before, I was not residing at home because I was working elsewhere.

MR MOKOENA: Did you ever attend any ANC meeting besides the meetings in issue here?

MR TLADI: Yes, there were others that I attended.

MR MOKOENA: Can you, may you maybe just give an estimate of such meetings?

MR TLADI: It could be three meetings.

ADV SANDI: Sorry that is not very clear to me, where was that, where did you attend those approximately three meetings, was it at Maroshane or at this place where you say you were working and where you say you resided also?

MR TLADI: At the place where I was working.

ADV SANDI: Where was this place?

MR TLADI: I started working at Middelburg, (indistinct) mine and Pretoria and Johannesburg.

ADV SANDI: Should one understand that you mean that you never attended any meetings at Maroshane until this particular incident happened?

MR TLADI: May you please repeat the question?

ADV SANDI: Before the incident you are talking about here today, did you attend any meetings at Maroshane?

MR TLADI: No.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Mokoena.

MR MOKOENA: Shall I, will I be correct to say that even these consumer boycotts and strikes you talked about, you are referring to the places where you were residing and not at Maroshane?

MR TLADI: That is correct.

MR MOKOENA: Okay, so if somebody comes to testify to the effect that there was never a consumer boycott or strike at Maroshane, what would be your comment on that one?

MR TLADI: I have explained before that I have agreed that I would agree with somebody when he says the ANC was not present at that time.

MR MOKOENA: Okay. How would you associate this killing, the burning with a political motive?

MR TLADI: I associate it with politics because the procedure that was followed was the normal procedure that was used by the Youth League because they were also toyi-toying.

MR MOKOENA: Are you suggesting that just toyi-toying, proceeding to a particular person, that becomes a political motive?

MR TLADI: I do not understand the question, will you please repeat it?

MR MOKOENA: Are you saying that proceeding to a particular person, toyi-toying would justify that as a political motive?

MR TLADI: That is associated with politics because ANC leaders were present.

MR MOKOENA: Okay, as I said, I am going to call someone to come and testify that there was no such an ANC structure in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: That doesn't seem to be in dispute, the applicant has conceded that.

MR MOKOENA: Okay, thank you Chairperson. Mr Tladi, you cannot deny that this act was purely a criminal act, can you?

MR TLADI: I do not understand you.

MR MOKOENA: Let me put it in a more simple way. What would be your comment if I said to you this was just pure a criminal act, it had nothing to do with politics?

MR TLADI: I would answer you by saying that it was not a criminal act because we were so many there, and we did that as comrades, all of us.

MR MOKOENA: Okay. Mr Baphela is going to come and testify that this arose out of jealousy because of the standard of living of his family. 

MR TLADI: I would agree with him there.

MR MOKOENA: Thank you honourable Chairperson, no more questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOKOENA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Mokoena. Ms Mtanga, is there anything ...

MS MTANGA: I have no questions Chairperson.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Does the Panel want to raise anything further?

MR SIBANYONI: Not from me Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Nothing from me, Mr Chairperson, thank you. 

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any re-examination Mr Richard?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: I have two questions. At that time did you have knowledge of any other incident in any other area where alleged witches were killed?

MR TLADI: I do not understand the question, will you please repeat?

MR RICHARD: As at August 1992, had you heard or did you know of any other incident in any other place, where a crowd of people had gone out and killed somebody they thought to be a witch?

MR TLADI: Yes, I did.

MR RICHARD: How many such incidents did you know about?

MR TLADI: Three of them.

MR RICHARD: Where did those incidents take place?

MR TLADI: In Skinot and also in Rampahlela.

MR RICHARD: Did you know people who had been part of those incidents?

MR TLADI: I do not know their names.

MR RICHARD: How did you learn about them, through the newspaper, people talking?

CHAIRPERSON: Is this new evidence?

MR RICHARD: Sorry, I leave the question. How many times did you hear Rinco speak at a meeting?

MR TLADI: I only learnt about people being burnt at other places on radio, I have never heard Rinco saying that.

MR RICHARD: How many times did you hear Rinco speak at meetings, nevermind about what you heard on the radio?

CHAIRPERSON: Can't you remember?

MR TLADI: I do not remember.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Were you aware of any incidents similar to this one that had occurred at Maroshane?

MR TLADI: I do not remember.

ADV SANDI: Can I take it that you are unable to give any justification for the killing of this person? Isn't that the position?

MR TLADI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, Mr Richard, is that the evidence for the applicant?

MR RICHARD: That is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that his case as well?

MR RICHARD: That is his case.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Will any other party present any evidence in this matter?

MR MOKOENA: Yes honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you intend doing, Mr Mokoena? Whose evidence do you intend to tender?

MR MOKOENA: Pieter Baphela.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the husband of the deceased? Is this in regard to this question of the motive for the attack on the family?

MR MOKOENA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that is as I understand his testimony, he has conceded that. It looks as if, on what you have put to him there, there is nothing that is in dispute. Under those circumstances, on the face of it, that testimony wouldn't really add very much to the incident. If that is the only point that you wish to emphasise on, on the testimony of Mr Baphela.

MR MOKOENA: That was the only point.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I think that one is common cause, so I don't think you need to be concerned about that.

MR MOKOENA: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anybody else that you had in mind, or is it only Mr Baphela? Because as I say it appears to me as if there is no dispute really.

MR MOKOENA: Yes, I also had Rinco.

CHAIRPERSON: Rinco yes, but even there, there is no real dispute. And besides, I mean the tribunal is not likely to make a finding that would directly impact on Mr Rinco's situation.

MR MOKOENA: Okay. Then that will be all.

CHAIRPERSON: And I assume Ms Mtanga, you are not intending to present any evidence?

MS MTANGA: That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Richard, have you got any submissions?

MR RICHARD IN ARGUMENT: I do have some submissions. From various reports that we all have copies of, we know that during that period in the area where this applicant resided, and worked, there were cases where groups, crowds of people decided to attack and injure people they suspected of being witches.

&#9;It was a problem at that time. We then also have no reason to doubt that this particular applicant attended a meeting at Maroshane where the problem of witches was discussed. 

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, his testimony is not in dispute on the build up.

MR RICHARD: And then the relevant factor in his case is that after an unsuccessful quest to find a sangoma or ngaka, he became part of a crowd that seized upon what appears to be an arbitrary suspect and burnt her to death.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think the question is was she a political opponent?

MR RICHARD: All I can argue in his support is that he was part of a crowd that descended upon this woman in the belief, unreasonable though it may have been, and unconnected with any linking evidence, that she was a witch. The man is clearly a simple person and I believe that his evidence that he would not have acted in this manner, unless it had been for that time, may be accepted as true.

&#9;My submission on his behalf is that the inference that we can draw from the facts I have outlined is that contrary to his normal state of mind, he became possessed with the hysteria of that particular crowd and believed on the basis of superstition and background, that he was acting in accordance with an accepted political gender of killing witches.

&#9;Unfortunately there is no evidence that I can take the argument further with. If I am challenged to say what evidence there is that links the subjected state of the applicant's mind I have nothing but that circumstantial evidence that I have outlined to argue on, and I will leave the matter in the hands of the Panel. As it pleases you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mokoena, have you got any submissions?

MR MOKOENA: Honourable Chairperson, I am not going to make any submission, I will leave the matter in the hands of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: I have no submissions to add, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Anything you wanted to add, Mr Richard?

MR RICHARD: Nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have come to the end of the day, we have been forced to sit way beyond the normal sitting hours because of the circumstances that prevailed here in an attempt to catch up with the matters that we had on the roll and in an attempt to accommodate everybody who is inconvenienced by the continuation of the proceedings, particularly by the fact that a significant number of the applicants before us, are being transported by the Correctional Services from various centres and there are great difficulties in sometimes reaching the venue from the centres without problems.

&#9;For that reason we have sat until we had completed this particular matter, which affected an applicant who has to be transported over some distance, back to Pretoria. As we have indicated, we are sitting in Middelburg in Mpumalanga.

&#9;For that reason we have sat until this evening. However, having come to the end of the day's proceedings, we are not in a position to give a decision immediately, we believe it is in the interest of the process that we should adjourn at this stage. We will formulate a decision and will notify the parties as soon as that decision is available. We will endeavour not to delay the decision in the matter, unnecessarily as we try to do and get these decisions out as expeditiously as possibly under normal circumstances.

&#9;We will therefore adjourn the proceedings and reconvene tomorrow morning at nine o'clock in order to deal with whatever remains to be dealt with on our record, on our hearing schedule. We again take the opportunity to thank the legal representatives for their assistance thus far, it is appreciated. We will then adjourn the proceedings until tomorrow morning at nine o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

