=====================================================================
&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
=====================================================================
 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

 

DATE:&#9;&#9;24.09.1996&#9;NAME: HELENA KROON DE KOCK

CASE NUMBER: 01563 &#9; KLERKSDORP

DAY 2

_________________________________________________________

DR RANDERA: Good morning Ms De Kock and welcome. Would you please like to introduce the person who is with you this morning.

MRS DE KOCK: It is my husband, Mr De Kock.

DR RANDERA: Thank you. Welcome to you too, Sir. Mrs De Kock you have come to talk this morning about the bombing of your school in Klerksdorp.

MRS DE KOCK: That's right.

DR RANDERA: Adv Denzil Potgieter is going to help you in telling your story, but before I hand over to him would you please stand to take the oath.

HELENE KROON DE KOCK: (Duly sworn, states).

DR RANDERA: Thank you. You may proceed.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you, Dr Randera. Good morning, Mrs De Kock and Mr De Kock. May I add my welcome to that of Dr Randera. As we have heard you will testify about an incident which happened on the 16th of December of 1991, relating to the arson of your school, the building that housed your school and certain other related incidents of threats and harassment. Now would you like to tell us how it came about that you started the school? I think it was in January of 1989.

MRS DE KOCK: Yes, it was actually, it started years and 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;2&#9;H DE KOCK

years and years before that. It really realised. Living in this country we had the desire in our innermost hearts and beings, to establish something that we can do well for the whole nation, not just for certain sectors of the nation. Just to pour our lives into that school, because we are educators. To pour our lives into it and just to offer our people in this nation something to bring back dignity to the nation, to bring back self-respect to the nation. To uplift people and to bring healing to the nation. This was the real desire of our hearts. We were not politically motivated. We were not politically involved ever. We were just normal citizens with a desire to do something to help the people of this nation.

ADV POTGIETER: Now what you then actually founded was a private school. Would you like to explain that?

MRS DE KOCK: Yes, it was a little private school. It started with 20 children and in the beginning there was only one little, if I can call it - I see children as children. I mean I don't care what the colour of people is, I see people as people. There was only one little Black girl that came because nobody knew really at that stage, what we wanted to do. So we had 20 children and one of these children was a little Black girl. The government of that time wouldn't accept this little Black girl as a child. So we couldn't get registration. They said no, we must have 20 Whites. So we had to pray and search for another White child to get the school registered. But eventually with a long struggle, and a lot of pain, we had the school registered.

ADV POTGIETER: When about was that, Mrs De Kock? When did you manage to get the registration done?

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;2&#9;H DE KOCK

MRS DE KOCK: We got it done during the year of 1989.

ADV POTGIETER: And what was the composition of the pupils at that stage?

MRS DE KOCK: At that stage we had 20 White pupils and one little darling Black little girl.

ADV POTGIETER: Where did you start the school?

MRS DE KOCK: We didn't have a lot of support to start the school. We started the school with what we had, and that was a small little building, a wall, that was bombed later on, and we started it there, with the desire that it would grow and that it would reach the people that it was meant to reach.

ADV POTGIETER: It was here in Klerksdorp that you started the school?

MRS DE KOCK: It was in Wilkoppies, Klerksdorp.

ADV POTGIETER: Now you managed to get registration. How did things then develop from there onwards, until 1991 when the particular incident happened. How did it grow, did you actually get a greater mix of children from the perspective of culture and so on?

MRS DE KOCK: Okay. With the motives we had we never realised that other people are not going to see the situation in the same light. You think people think the same way as you do and actually, with a shock, you realise it is not the same. When the people started to learn that we are an open school, that we are non-racial, non - there is a no a denomination attached to the school, it is absolutely open to every person with their own viewpoints. The only motive we have is to really educate children, the people started to come. When we enrolled the first 30 little Black students, the problems really started. 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;3&#9;H DE KOCK

Unfortunately even the people that started the school with us, withdrew their children. They turned their backs, they walked out. We realised that we are in this thing alone now.

ADV POTGIETER: Were those the people that withdrew their children?

MRS DE KOCK: They withdrew their children, they walked out because of the children we enrolled at that stage. We had to make a decision there, whether we are going to run with the crowd and with the popular view at that stage, or are we willing to be deserted totally, rejected totally. I mean, I know the depths of rejection, I know where - I know what it means to be totally rejected by people that you thought is your family and your friends. People of your own language group and whatever.

ADV POTGIETER: Were those the people that actually withdrew their children? Were those the types of parents, it was basically White parents that withdrew their children.

MRS DE KOCK: That's correct.

ADV POTGIETER: When you had a greater number of Black pupils enrolling at the school.

MRS DE KOCK: That is correct. It was a very great shock to us, but we had to go through that. We had to stand with the people that needed the education. That was the motivation.

ADV POTGIETER: How did things then develop with a larger number of Black pupils enrolling, some White parents withdrawing their children, how did things go for the school from there onwards?

MRS DE KOCK: I just want to say that by the time we enrolled the 30 little Black students, there were 64 White students at that stage. So the survival of the school was 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;4&#9;H DE KOCK

really placed in jeopardy when they walked out. We had to -actually we had to restart the school. That was the first restart. The second restart was after the bomb.

ADV POTGIETER: Now this first restart, when about was that, which year was that?

MRS DE KOCK: That was, I would say in October, we took the children in in October, from July to October in the first - in the second year, 1990.

ADV POTGIETER: 1990?

MRS DE KOCK: 1990.

ADV POTGIETER: And perhaps briefly ... (intervention).

MRS DE KOCK: We took them in when they started to come.

ADV POTGIETER: Briefly, at that stage, what was the political situation like in Klerksdorp?

MRS DE KOCK: Because I was not very much involved with the politics, and I just have a heart for the people, it was very difficult for me to understand their political motivations. I just realised that I have a lot of things in the town council against me. I started realising that and the people in the area started to become angry, but even at that very stage, we didn't realise the extent physically.

ADV POTGIETER: And you say that you had a difficult relationship with the town council?

MRS DE KOCK: Very difficult.

ADV POTGIETER: At that stage do you know which political grouping controlled the town council?

MRS DE KOCK: I never asked, but I can guess.

ADV POTGIETER: Would you want to venture a guess?

MRS DE KOCK: Well, I think it was the present government of that time's town council.

ADV POTGIETER: That was in 1990.

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;5&#9;H DE KOCK

MRS DE KOCK: That was in 1990.

ADV POTGIETER: And you say that you didn't have a very good relationship with them. Now what was it, were they making things difficult for you?

MRS DE KOCK: They still, they made things very, very difficult for us. Now you know, as a law-abiding citizen, trying to be, I became an on-law-abiding citizen through the difficulties that we have faced. They would not approve of any of our building programmes and then I would just have to go ahead and build illegally. They were forever trying to close, to stall everything. They would bring a lot of threats against us. They would walk into the premises - now I am not violent at all and I disagree with all kinds of violence, but I found myself sometimes wanting even to slap those people. You know, I just felt this violence coming in me and to think that people can be so ignorant and so domineering.

ADV POTGIETER: I assume that from about - you said the second term in 1990, I suppose things became progressively worse for you, more difficult as you went into 1991.

MRS DE KOCK: Well, we were totally involved in an alone struggle. The only people that stood with us, were the Black parents and the children.

ADV POTGIETER: Now in 1991, we know the actual arson incident happened. But before we get to that, yourself, as the owner of the school ...

MRS DE KOCK: The principal.

ADV POTGIETER: The principal. What happened, I mean, did you find that people were threatening, harassing, carrying on like that, towards you?

MRS DE KOCK: Not at that stage. It started, the threats 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;6&#9;H DE KOCK

against our lives and the lives of my family started after the bombing.

ADV POTGIETER: Okay. Now would you want to take us up to the bombing. That seems to have been after the school was closed at the end of 1991.

MRS DE KOCK: Yes, we - I have got to mention this. I walked and I knocked on doors of many financial institutions in South Africa at that stage, to help us, to build some classrooms and to accommodate the children and none were willing to even make loans. Even though we accepted the interest rates that they offered. There were none who were willing to offer us financial support or loans to build a school or to build the school. We realised that time was running out on us and then somebody brought me a name of an outside trust in Germany, and I wrote a letter to them, and they gave us money, funding, as a loan. We are still paying back on those loans. They offered us a loan to build the classrooms and it was a great time in our lives. We built the six little classrooms. Not six little classrooms, they are actually 60 square metres, and we were very proud of the situation and so thankful. Everything was just completed. January we would have moved in there out of very difficult teaching situations, circumstances at that stage. And I remember the 15th of December I was standing there, and I just put my hands up into the air and I said thank you, God, for your faithfulness, that you love the people of South Africa, that you love the children and that you made this possible and that we can really go on and just give us the courage to restore people and to be hope-givers.

ADV POTGIETER: Was the 15th of December the last day of school?

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;7&#9;H DE KOCK

MRS DE KOCK: We closed the office then, with great thankfulness and happiness in our hearts and then we went - it wasn't the last day of school, it was the last day that we worked there. Then the night of the 16th we had a phone call, 20 past one to come out there, because the school was bombed.

ADV POTGIETER: And I assume you went to the premises?

MRS DE KOCK: I thought it is a joke, I thought people are just making a joke. I mean, I couldn't believe it can be true. When I came there everything was in darkness and I didn't realise exactly what was happening. But at that stage a friend of mine who came out there, people that really stood with us right through the time, an old lady. We just grabbed hold of one another and we started shaking, because I mean, we just went into total shock. We couldn't believe that what is going on here really happened.

ADV POTGIETER: And what did you find, what damage was done to the building?

MRS DE KOCK: I have got some photos here and the next day we really, we didn't sleep that night again, but the next day when the light came, we went out there and realised that we have lost literally everything, that there was just dirt and rubble and a mess and corrugated iron all over, and it looked like a war zone.

ADV POTGIETER: So was most of the structure actually destroyed in this explosion?

MRS DE KOCK: Yes, yes, everything that we built, everything that we have gathered in the three years, in a great struggle and pain, because it did not come easy, it was just destroyed by the sick minds of people, without faces. People that live in hatred and I don't know how they live,

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;8&#9;H DE KOCK

but that's the way they live. And taking up their own right to think that they have the right to go and destroy the life vision of somebody else. But I found that you cannot destroy the ideals of people. We have seen it in our country, we have seen it in our nation, if you try to destroy the ideals of people, something inside just stands up again.

ADV POTGIETER: Is that what in fact happened to the school?

MRS DE KOCK: That's what happened to the school.

ADV POTGIETER: You stood up again after that heavy blow.

MRS DE KOCK: The parents, the day a lot of people came to see the situation and what I heard that day was a great shock to me. I think that is something I will never forget. People standing there and saying "good show, this should have - I would have done even a better job, I would have destroyed it even in a better way", and the remarks ... I just realised in that moment the hatred that the nation is standing in. The hatred that we have got to face in this nation and the antagonism and I just said God, but it is impossible to live in this country, it is impossible to restore this place. Those were the first thoughts that came to me. Then afterwards, the parents come to you and they looked me straight in the face and they said Helena, are you also going to turn your back on us now. I said God forbid that I do that, I don't know how we are going to do that, I have got nothing left. We are totally, literally totally bankrupt.

&#9;What was interesting at that stage the other Whites that still were supposed to believe in the project, in that very moment, turned their backs and said we are sorry, we cannot associate with this any longer, we are losing status, you know and we are losing our good name and our children 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;9&#9;H DE KOCK

are in jeopardy and you know, the status and things are more important to people than vision and ideals. You know, this is not really what we want for our kids, and this is not really what we want for ourselves. 

&#9;We had to stand there and face this all and eventually there were two couples left, two White couples that stood their ground and said don't worry, we are going to go with you through this thing.

ADV POTGIETER: You say that there were persons who made some critical remarks and indicated that they associate themselves with what happened?

MRS DE KOCK: Yes, yes, most definitely.

ADV POTGIETER: Who said that if it were them they would have done even a better job out of this.

MRS DE KOCK: A better job, yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Now from section of the community did those sentiments come?

MRS DE KOCK: They came there from everywhere, I just saw cars and streets packed with people and after the bomb, and I was standing there amongst them, and they didn't care what they said and they just said - and I heard a lot of things they said against myself and my family.

ADV POTGIETER: What sort of people was it, was it Black people or White people, or what, what kind of people were they? What section of the community did they come from?

MRS DE KOCK: It wasn't the Black people. It was definitely not the Black people, the Black people, my parents came up to me and they put their arms around me and they said we will do it again, you don't just drop us now.

ADV POTGIETER: How did you manage to get out of that situation, to rebuild the school?

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;10&#9;H DE KOCK

MRS DE KOCK: At that stage the antagonism of the town turned against us severely. People started drawing up petitions and we did not know whether we are going to survive it. The telephone would ring and somebody would pick up the telephone and say hello and they would say "you know you and your family are the greatest rubbish born on this earth, we are going to kill you" and they would just plonk the telephone down again. I mean, they wouldn't care if your child picks up the telephone. They would say the same thing to your children.

ADV POTGIETER: What language were these people using?

MRS DE KOCK: They were using English and Afrikaans. I suppose they used languages that I would understand. Now to say here that I am Afrikaans-born, I am born to an Afrikaans family and my home language is Afrikaans, and I don't know how I skipped the brainwashing of my upbringing. I think it was my father that was a very open man and I was brought up in a home where all people of all nations and races were welcome. We ate together, and I grew up in Natal so I wasn't really aware of the hatred of the Transvaal. 

ADV POTGIETER: Now I assume you managed to rebuild the school.

MRS DE KOCK: We, not completely yet, we had to move to the showgrounds where they asked a tremendous amount of money to be there under harsh circumstances. Nobody cared. Everybody hoped that we would not survive it. The German Trust stepped into the situation and they gave us bridging funds to restore the classrooms, and we could never restore the hall. The ruins are still standing there, as a testimony. Everybody that pass it, hates it, but I can't help it.

ADV POTGIETER: Your school is carrying on?

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;11&#9;H DE KOCK

MRS DE KOCK: The school is carrying on in spite of - it carried on illegally at stages, it is still carrying on and we bought a lot of erven around us to expand the school. We are almost serving 500 children right now.

ADV POTGIETER: And you have maintained the status of the school as a multi-cultural, inter-denominational school?

MRS DE KOCK: Yes.

ADV POTGIETER: Catering for children from all backgrounds.

MRS DE KOCK: Yes, all children are welcome to come there, but all children do not come. It is, I so hoped in my heart and it is still maybe a dream and a vision that people will in this country be so reconciled that we would take hands together and say listen, we are going to uplift one another together, and I am not going to separate myself from the realities of this nation. But still it is very difficult for me to draw the White children into that school. Maybe because of the history. 

&#9;There is another thing that I have got to mention here. People in the Afrikaner sector does not care what your beliefs really are. The minute that you differ from them, they label you, they call you names and they call you a Communist. If you have been called a Communist by the Afrikaner community there is no way back. There is no way out of it. I mean, you are labelled, you are different and you are (indistinct). We had to learn to live within separation. In the apartheid time they had this home arrest. I know what it means to be under home arrest through a community up to this day.

ADV POTGIETER: Now was there any indication who was responsible for this incident? Was there a police investigation? I suppose you did lay a charge, you took the 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;12&#9;H DE KOCK

matter to the police?

MRS DE KOCK: Ja, the people remain faceless up to this day. I suppose it wasn't important enough to find out who it was. I would love to know who it was, not to hate them, to face them. I know that the country is going through changes and I know that the hearts of people can change. I believe that that is the only hope for our nation. I would like to see people like that, to find out whether they have come to their senses.

ADV POTGIETER: But there doesn't seem to have been any progress with the police investigation?

MRS DE KOCK: Not at all, it has just dropped into thin air. There is just nothing happened about it. Up to this day.

ADV POTGIETER: And how do you feel about that and about what happened? Because this seems to be such a senseless incident?

MRS DE KOCK: It is senseless. It showed me what is in a little person that carries a vision and ideals, and I know that every person in this nation that can carry an ideal and a vision and that has got a burning desire in their hearts, to love and to share their lives with others, will come out and survive. Hatred will destroy us. I had the opportunity to hate, I had the opportunity to be violent, myself, and I know that I cannot sometimes correct the circumstances or a life is not always spared through us, but I know I can choose my reaction and in spite of whatever has happened in the past, I want to love people and that is what I am born to do and that is what I am going to do. And I want to restore dignity in people and that is what I am going to do. I want to see a South Africa with such great self-respect, because Africa is also waiting to be restored and we are 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;13&#9;H DE KOCK

responsible. That is what it has done to me. It has given me such a great vision and a heart for people, that I do not regret what I had to go through.

ADV POTGIETER: Mrs De Kock, thank you very much for sharing this terrible story with us.

MRS DE KOCK: I just want to say something else. I still have problems with the town council. I tried to reconcile with them many times. It cannot happen for some or other reason. They have got this unrealistic conditions, I received from them in a letter again. I cannot adhere to it and so they will just keep on keeping back the fact that I can be there and that I can consolidate the grounds and that I can use it in a proper legal way. I cannot understand why it is so, but it is just happening still. I thought it is going to change, but it is not really changing.

ADV POTGIETER: But I think the message you have got for them is that won't put you off track. You seem to be committed to your ideals, at least.

MRS DE KOCK: But it makes things very difficult. But I am going to make things very difficult for them because I have just got to go ahead and I have got to tell them that, that I have got to go ahead, I cannot stop now. If I have to wait for them nothing will happen, so I am not going to wait. It is not because I want to be rebellious, it is because I have got to do what I have got to do. If I did ugly things, if I tried to destroy the people, I could have said yes, punish me for that, but I am not doing that, and that is why I am not going to wait. Thank you.

ADV POTGIETER: I must thank you very much for sharing this story with us and for your commitment to what is really a very, very necessary facility and for fighting against the 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;14&#9;H DE KOCK

odds, because it is quite clear that the odds must have been very - and you seem to say, are still very heavily against you. But thank you for sharing your story.

MRS DE KOCK: There is one little thing I still want to say. Don't despise all private schools. All private schools are not just there for the elite. There are private schools with genuine ideals and to educate and if you take away my ideal to educate and help this nation, there is nothing left for me to do, and I believe that all of us must have the opportunity to give what we have to our nation. Thanks.

ADV POTGIETER: Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I am going to ask my fellow Commissioners if they want to ask you any questions.

DR RANDERA: Mrs Randera, I heard you mention that you have children. Can you tell us how many children do you have?

MRS DE KOCK: I have three children and they are with me in the school.

DR RANDERA: And how old are they?

MRS DE KOCK: Pardon?

DR RANDERA: How old are they?

MRS DE KOCK: I have - my eldest girl 17 in Std 9, a little boy in Std 4 and a little girl in Std 2.

DR RANDERA: It seems as if your children through the same story that you have told us today, as well?

MRS DE KOCK: We are a family that can really stick together and we would just say to one another, well, we are in this together, we have got to go through this. I sometimes, I can see the pain in their lives, but it has brought us very close and they are very much also rejected by the community. So they are still paying the price. But they are very willing to do that. I think they are more mature than most 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;15&#9;H DE KOCK

children of their ages.

DR RANDERA: Mrs De Kock, one more question. All this happened to you very close to the great changes that took place in our country. To quote you, you said you know what it is like to be under house arrest or home arrest to a community, and I thought you say that this applies to this day. Are you then saying that within the community of Klerksdorp, within your community now, which I would understand and accept that it is still predominantly a White community, that there hasn't been a move towards this reconciliation towards you, people haven't come forward and said what you were doing was right and we are sorry for what we did?

MRS DE KOCK: No, unfortunately up to this day, nobody came and said sorry, sorry, here is my hand of reconciliation, I am willing to give you another chance. They ignore me, they would turn their heads away, they would not at all reconcile up to this day. I don't know what is going on inside some people, but to me they never came and said I am sorry for what has happened to you.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

PROF MEIRING: Mrs De Kock, just a number of short questions. I was intrigued by the name of the school Klerksdorp KCA, what does it stand for?

MRS DE KOCK: Klerksdorp Christian Academy.

PROF MEIRING: Christian Academy?

MRS DE KOCK: Yes.

PROF MEIRING: And where is it situated, in the so-called White township or ...

MRS DE KOCK: Yes, well, I believe that the people of South Africa may have the best, it is not just for some people, 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;16&#9;H DE KOCK

and we are situated in the so-called - how can I say, elite area of the town and I think that is mostly or it was the cause of the hatred that we had to face, because we came in there with our different children and we came to make unpleasantly, change the environment.

PROF MEIRING: When do you hope to return to the buildings that were bombed?

MRS DE KOCK: We have returned already and we have expanded greatly there. We have 24 beautiful classrooms and we just continue to buy and to pay and to continue. It is the wall that has been bombed that we could not restore. It is going to cost about two and a half million rand to restore and we just haven't got that kind of money.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you. Just a last question. Did I hear you correctly if you said that what you actually would like the TRC to do is, are two things. Firstly to help you with the town council, to sort out the mutual problems you have and secondly, that you would like the inquest, that must proceed. You would like to know who were the people responsible, because you said that once you knew who they were, you would like to face them and talk it over with them. Are those the two things you actually want?

MRS DE KOCK: Yes, because I think it is a very - you are a very great coward if you stay behind the scene, the walls and you don't come out and say I have done it and this is the reasons why I have done it.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you.

MRS DE KOCK: I mean, I am not going to kill them.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you so much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs De Kock, thank you very much for coming to share your story with us. I think your courage in doing this

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;17&#9;H DE KOCK

sort of thing in the days when it was very difficult to do it, is to be commended. I think part of the legacy we have in this country is to overcome the hatred that separates people and also the sense that people are inferior and that people are different, simply because of their colour. I think part of reconciliation in this country is to try and address that and to get people to accept the fact that they come from the same humanity. It is a difficult road and we are very sorry that even in this day you are still having problems because we would want to believe that people accept change with the greatness of heart that it requires, and that that doesn't happen is a problematic matter. We will look into the matter. You know that arson is a very difficult matter for the Truth Commission to look at, because technically it is not a classic human rights violation. We have, however, been listening to arson cases and we will of course be considering how we are going to handle that in the future. Thank you for coming.

MRS DE KOCK: Thank you very much. I just want to say I really appreciate what the Truth Commission is doing. If it wasn't for your work we would have been in the dark still, about a lot of things that happened in this country and that we never, never would have known. Thank you so much. Just go ahead, it is a great thing that you are doing. There are a lot of us out there very much appreciating it, and there is a lot of hearts that are melting and a lot of tears that are flowing when you realise what really happened to our precious people in this country. Thank you so much.

 

 

&#9;------------

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

