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&#9;1&#9;W PHALATSE
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&#9;1&#9;W PHALATSE 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;12.08.1996&#9;NAME:&#9;WELHEMINAH PHALATSE

CASE:&#9;JB01012 &#9;-&#9;PRETORIA

DAY 1

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CHAIRPERSON: Welheminah Phalatse and before she sits down to just take the oath. Mrs Sooka will administer the oath.

WELHEMINAH PHALATSE: (Duly sworn in, states).

MS SOOKA: Thank you, you may be seated. 

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Phalatse, I have been given the opportunity to assist you in giving your evidence and just before you do so, just for the sake of the members of the public here, to give some of the political context, you will be giving evidence about your daughter Irene having been shot and killed in 1976. That was during the disturbances amongst, especially, the students when Afrikaans was brought as a medium of tuition and the protest demonstrations that flowed from that. The police reacted using teargas, even firing into crowds, killing and injuring school children. The chain reaction that followed again with arson attacks, baton charges against the kids, car stoning, barricading in the townships, raids and that eventually led to the broader revolt, a revolt that spread over the country. It is against that background that Mrs Phalatse will be giving her evidence and I will appreciate it if, Mrs Phalatse, if you will tell us your story in your own way.

MRS PHALATSE: It was in 1976, August, probably the 21st of August. I was on my way to work. When I knocked off at half past four I went to the train at Hartebees Station. 

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When I arrived home I met Irene's brother with her friend. I asked them where they were going. They said they were sent here by a teacher to come and call you from work. I did not feel disturbed at that time. Then I asked them where she is? The said she is at hospital. The train arrived for Atteridgeville. I had just alighted from the one from Mamelodi then we boarded this one for Atteridgeville. I said to them I will alight here at Kalafong and look for Irene. I thought it was just a minor issue. 

&#9;Then I alighted at Kalafong. They were together with me to accompany me. When we arrived there she was in Ward 9. She had already undergone an operation, but they could not assist her immediately with the wounds that she received. They took her out of the ward and to the Intensive Care Unit. At the Intensive Care Unit she stayed there for some days and then she was brought back to the ward again. She was a little better then. She stayed at the ward for about 14 days, but however, in September she passed away. 

&#9;After we have buried Irene we went to court. We heard nothing at the court. Hence, I found it useless that we attended the court. The evidence that we received was a bit useless. The last court hearing that we attended, which was the third one, they brought along white soldiers asking me are these the people who shot your child? We said, we do not know because they shot from inside the Hippo. I do not remember the names of that person who, Meintjies, they referred to him as Meintjies and he said I shot in, I fired in the air. Then they started throwing stones at us. Then they asked him did they hit you with the stones and then he

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just pointed at his forehead. 

&#9;Now, Irene, when I went to school to enquire about Irene because the incident happened there within the school yard. The teacher said I sent Irene to the library and I directed her how to get to the library and she must bring a book for me from the library. As she went out the door, even before she reached the library she was shot. The bullet did pierce her. She left the school yard and then that is when I came there to ask them whether this Meintjies did shoot my child or not. Then what they said was just to take her to the hospital. All the teachers they were desperately trying to help the child and take her to the hospital. It happened that they took her to Kalafong. Then they operated on her, extracted the bullet after some days. It was only then that they took her for an operation.

&#9;However, the way she got shot she could not survive at all. We went to court, but the evidence that we received there was of no use. They said during riots you can claim nothing. That is what they explained to us. You do not have to put or lodge any claim if the incident occurred during riots. 

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mrs Phalatse. I have one question. You mentioned in your testimony now that you went to the court. Can you tell us a little more about that? I must also apologise that my phone is going on and off so I am missing a little of it. I will have to look at the transcription later, but you did say that you visited the court.

MRS PHALATSE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us what took place there? Can you repeat it if you did say it?

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MRS PHALATSE: Nothing happened at court. They just asked if we know the person who shot her, but we said we do not know the person because we were not around when the incident occurred. So we never had the evidence to, can explain or point out this person who shot Irene. The third time when we arrived they said to us you do not have any evidence, but they will inform us. Since 1976 we have not been informed. That is the whole story.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Did you go to court because there was and inquest, an enquiry? Did they try to find out there? Why did you go to court.

MRS PHALATSE: We approached the police, teacher Moseneke approached the police and then they took a statement. That is how it came that we have to go to court to explain or point out the person who shot Irene, but since we were not at the scene we could not. The bullet was from the street and then it incidentally hit Irene.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any documents that you got from the court? Thank you. I will see if some of my colleagues have questions. Dr Ally.

MRS PHALATSE: I do not have any documents that I received from court. The only documents that I have are death certificates that I received, but from the court I have got no documents. 

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Phalatse, some of my colleagues would, I think, also have questions and I am, I hope you will not mind answering them. I have Dr Ally with a first question.

DR ALLY: Thank you Mrs Phalatse. On the day that your daughter was shot were there any other people who were shot and maybe even killed on that day? Do you know?

MRS PHALATSE: People who received injuries were not that 

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serious. Those are the people that I know. 

DR ALLY: But there were other people who were shot, you were saying. I missed it, this.

MRS PHALATSE: No one was shot except my daughter on that day. 

DR ALLY: And you mentioned the name Meintjies.

MRS PHALATSE: Yes.

DR ALLY: How did you get to know that name? How did that name come up?

MRS PHALATSE: The Magistrate did call the name in court that Mr Meintjies, you were on duty on that day and then he said yes. Asked him again was it you who gave out the command that the police should fire and then he said I did it myself. Then there was no scratch and then, but he claimed that they did stone him on that day. The Magistrate said that the evidence that you give, it is not concrete. They called us the second time. We went there. Again they explained that the evidence that we give is not corroborative. Even the third time also I was with Mr Moseneke who is the teacher. They said again our evidence is still weak. You will be summoned for the third time or the fourth time. 

DR ALLY: Mr Moseneke, he was a teacher at this school. Was he an eyewitness? Did he actually see what happened?

MRS PHALATSE: Yes, that is so. He was the Principal at that school. 

DR ALLY: Thank you Mrs Phalatse.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthata. 

MR MANTHATA: Mrs Phalatse, the location was Atteridgeville before your daughter got shot. How was the situation in Atteridgeville before your daughter was shot?

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MRS PHALATSE: It was a bit violent on that day. Unfortunately on that day my daughter was shot, but some of the school children did not get, suffer any injuries, but mine did suffer or sustain some injuries on that day. 

MR MANTHATA: Were you summoned to court or you voluntarily approached the court?

MRS PHALATSE: We were summoned to appear at court and then I was in the company of teacher Moseneke because the letter that we did received did summons us, summoned us to court or to appear before court. They called us the second time and the third time also. Then I was in the company of Mr Moseneke. 

MR MANTHATA: You never reported to the police that your daughter got shot. That is why they asked you who shot your daughter?

MRS PHALATSE: It is so because when we arrived at court the first thing that they asked us was who shot your daughter, but we explained that we do not know who that person was, but people tell us it was the police who shot my daughter. Even on the second time that we approached the court that is when this Meintjies said that they stoned us hence I fired a shot in the air, but the bullet did not go up, but it did hit my daughter. 

MR MANTHATA: How old was your daughter when she died?

MRS PHALATSE: She was 16. 

MR MANTHATA: What were your expectations?

MRS PHALATSE: She was doing standard six. I expected a lot from her. Maybe she would bring something that will bring joy in our family as she progresses with her studies. 

MR MANTHATA: I thank you. 

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mrs Sooka.

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MS SOOKA: Mama, could you tell me, your daughter was she a member of the SRC at school?

MRS PHALATSE: I do not have any information with respect to that. 

MS SOOKA: Do you know if she was involved in any political activity at the school? Was she involved in the protests that were taking place?

MRS PHALATSE: No, it is not like that. She never engaged in any political activities on that school.

MS SOOKA: At the time when the court case was taking place did you have an attorney to represent you?

MRS PHALATSE: I had one. He was Makambele, his name. He stays in Mamelodi. He is Makambele.

MS SOOKA: And do you know or while you were at court did they call Mr Moseneke or any of the other teachers to tell the court if they saw who had actually shot your daughter?

MRS PHALATSE: They were not asked to give evidence, but I said what they told to, what they told me, but they were not asked to give evidence. The way these teachers explained to me that is what I said to the court. They wrapped her in jerseys, they were all stained in blood. I did not ask any questions, but I accepted what they said to me because they were with her at the time when she was shot. 

MS SOOKA: Did the teachers tell you who had shot your daughter? Was it this man Meintjies?

MRS PHALATSE: What the teachers said was that the bullet was from the direction of the street and then it hit the child when she just went out of the classroom heading for the library. Then when she went out she said you have killed this child and then the person she saw was Meintjies and then Meintjies asked where is she? Then she said there 

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she is lying down and then they said take her to the hospital. He did not even apologise. He said take her to the hospital. How were they going to take her to the hospital if they did not have cars?

MS SOOKA: You mention in your statement that when you saw your daughter in the hospital she could still speak. Did she tell you anything while she was able to speak?

MRS PHALATSE: She was not able to speak. She just looked at me. She just smiled when she saw me. She did not speak at all. 

MS SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Phalatse, thank you very much. We are pretty sure that it will be difficult to get the information specifically on the inquest that having take place some 20 years ago.

MRS PHALATSE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But we have your statement. We have also listened to your testimony and through our Investigative Unit research activities we will see what we can find out and we will, in due course, report to you. Thank you very much for coming to us. 

&#9;Just before you leave the stand we will be breaking for tea, but before we do so I would ask your indulgence to allow the witnesses to leave the hall first while we remain standing. Will you please stand and then if the witnesses will move out to tea. We will be coming back in half an hour.

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