=====================================================================
&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
=====================================================================
 &#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;19TH NOVEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM

APPLICATION NO: AM 5168/97

HELD AT:&#9;WELKOM

DAY :&#9;1

----------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Welcome everybody. Today we have two hearings that have been placed on the roll. The hearing that we'll be commencing with concerns the applications of Mr Pieter Breytenbach and Mr de Wet Johan Strydom. 

CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start I'd like to introduce the Committee. On my right is Doctor Tsotsi, he is an attorney and comes from Port Elizabeth, and member of the Amnesty Committee. On my left is Mr Sibanyoni, he is also an attorney, he comes from Pretoria. I am Selwyn Miller, I'm a Judge from the High Court from the Eastern Cape attached to the Transkei Division there. &#9;I'd request the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR PRINSLOO: As it pleases you, Honourable Chairperson, Members of the Committee. H J Prinsloo, I appear on behalf of the first applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prinsloo.

MR PRINSLOO: 

MS VAN DER WALT: I am Louisa van der Walt, appearing on behalf of Mr de Wet Strydom.

MR TAKA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Gordon Taka. I'm practising locally and representing the victims in the second hearing in the application of ...(indistinct) and others.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're not involved in this matter?

MR TAKA: ...(inaudible)

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chairman, I'm Zuko Mapoma the Evidence Leader for the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. When we met earlier this morning, Mr Prinsloo you indicated that the hearing will commence with the evidence of Mr Strydom.

MR PRINSLOO: As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: It's over to you, Mr Prinsloo.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Chairperson. 

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms van der Walt.

MS VAN DER WALT: I call the second applicant, Mr Strydom, but before he gives his evidence there are certain aspects with regards to his application which if you give me leave, I would like to amend.

CHAIRPERSON: I see that he says that he was born in 1996.

MS VAN DER WALT: It's a bit young. The first reference is on page 36, it should be '64. Then on page 43 it is again at the birth date but there the birth date is 19, it should be 29 March. The year is correct there. Then on page 49 there is a General's name which should not be there, it's on page 47 paragraph 16. In the middle you'll find five Generals and then General Oelofse's name should be deleted. The applicant will explain this to the Committee. On the same page, paragraph 16, the sixth line from the bottom where it's written: General Oelofse should be General Etsebeth. On page 53, paragraph 27, the fifth line in the paragraph it the same, General Oelofse should be replaced with General Etsebeth. Thank you, that is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, do you have any objection?

MR PRINSLOO: No, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, any objections?

MR MAPOMA: I have no objections, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we'll then effect those amendments as stated by yourself, Ms van der Walt.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you very much.

&#9;Mr Strydom, you applied ...(intervention)

DE WET JOHAN STRYDOM: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Your amnesty application is contained in this volume from page 36 up to 70. You apply for amnesty for certain offences for which you were charged and it was postponed sine die pending on the amnesty application.

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the charges for which you're applying for amnesty appears on page 38.

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And it's also the same charges as we find them in the bundle from page 71 onwards.

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Strydom, you gave your full particulars in your amnesty application. You were a member of the Conservative Party as well as the AWB, is

that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you join the AWB?

MR STRYDOM: In 1982.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you were also a member of the South African Police, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: From when?

MR STRYDOM: Also from 1982.

MS VAN DER WALT: And later you left the police service.

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: When?

MR STRYDOM: 1987.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well. During your service in the police force, did you do any border service?

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: How long were you at the border for?

MR STRYDOM: I was there several times, three months at a time.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you also completed several courses in your career as a police officer, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: During 1992 - if I can refer you Chairperson to page 64 of the volume, it starts at the bottom - sorry, 45, the bottom of 45, I apologise. &#9;During 1992 you presented courses of the AWB and you attending them.

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the purpose of these courses?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the purpose of these courses were to train people in the use of explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the instructions we received was to present these courses so that the election would not happen and then also to create chaos all over the country.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the AWB had several Generals who were involved in these courses and training, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the leader of the AWB, Eugene Terre'blanche, did he have any knowledge with regards to the training the AWB people underwent?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, he knew about it all the time. He knew about the courses and the training which took place.

MS VAN DER WALT: You've mentioned several names in this paragraph, In paragraph 9 on page 46 you mention several Generals there. They had a specific name, what were their ranks as Generals?

MR STRYDOM: They were the fighting Generals of the AWB, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why were they called like that?

MR STRYDOM: They were fighting Generals because in each district or area they gave the main instructions which would lead to war.

MS VAN DER WALT: So the AWB prepared them for war? 

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you also said they did not want the election to take place, why were they opposed to this election?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, according to the AWB it would have been a majority election and it would have moved on towards a communist party and the AWB didn't approve of that.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was Eugene Terre'blanche's viewpoint during all the meetings which you attended, what did he say with regards to the elections?

MR STRYDOM: That an election should not take place, Chairperson and no negotiations would take place either with the ANC.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did he say, did he say that there'd be negotiations in any manner or what was his point of view?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, most of the meetings I attended he said that only through a barrel of a gun there would be negotiations with any communistic party, including the ANC.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did you think, what did you think of these meetings and what was told to you?

MR STRYDOM: At that stage I believed firmly that it was indeed correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you also prepare yourself for the war?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I did indeed.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well. During 1992 on Jakob Morkel's farm in Khuruman you attended the camp of the AWB, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this camp, did it have any influence on you?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson, there I really saw that this country was heading towards a majority election and everything must be done to stop that, under the instructions of the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: So did you become more active in the AWB?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: When was that?

MR STRYDOM: In 1993 I really became active within the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: If you say active, what exactly do you want to tell the Committee, what does that imply?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, in those years I received instructions from my fighting General to start with the explosive gathering and also to start training the people in the use thereof.

MS VAN DER WALT: You speak of the General, is this the General under whose command you functioned?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who was he?

MR STRYDOM: General Nico Fourie, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And were you in a specific division of the AWB?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Which was that?

MR STRYDOM: We were a special force of the AWB with the aim to identify the insurgents of the AWB, people who infiltrated the AWB.

MS VAN DER WALT: What exactly do you mean? Were these people who infiltrated the AWB which you then had to identify?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson, people from other parties, for example the ANC or the National Party, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Strydom, did that special force have a name?

MR STRYDOM: We were known as the Special Forces.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms van der Walt.

&#9;Were you working at that time or were you involved fulltime with the activities of the movement, the AWB?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I did work at that stage, I was a traffic official.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where were you a traffic official?

MR STRYDOM: In 1993 I was a traffic official on Ottosdal, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And these Special Forces which fell under the command of General Fourie, who were these people?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, there was a person who fell directly under the command of Fourie. We knew him as Oscar, I didn't have another name for him. There was also - we were several people from several districts. There was Piet Prinsloo from Bloemfontein, Johan van Zyl from Khalahari district, Johan Welgemoed who is now deceased was in the Zululand district and myself for the diamond district, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: This diamond region, which area did this entail?

MR STRYDOM: It was mostly the Western Transvaal and also parts of the Free State, for example, Hoopstad and more.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well. Why were there different people from different regions who fell under the command of General Fourie?

MR STRYDOM: It was in order for us to present courses all over the country. All the people were experts in explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you did not only act against anti-insurgence units but you gave training in explosives?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you have any members under your command?

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who were they?

MR STRYDOM: Mr Piet Breytenbach and he is also applying for amnesty, and also Mr Piet Wessels.

MS VAN DER WALT: So this happened in your region, the diamond region?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And both these people, were they both members of the AWB?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your rank when you were in command of these members as part of the Special Forces?

MR STRYDOM: I had the rank of Kommandant during that time.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the other applicant, Mr Piet Breytenbach, what was his rank?

MR STRYDOM: Originally he was a Field Cornet but by the time we started our activities he had the rank of Kommandant as well, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: But he was under your command?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Piet Wessels?

MR STRYDOM: He had the rank of Field Cornet, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you go further in paragraph 13, page 47, Chairperson. You make mention of the fact that in November 1993 you were given instructions by the head Kommandant, Burger Terre'blanche to present training courses in explosives, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you do that?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I did present these courses, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And these courses, who were they presented to?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, at that time my first course was for Mr Piet Wessels and Piet Breytenbach, Chairperson, as well as the head Kommandant Burger Terre'blanche. He also attended these courses.

MS VAN DER WALT: And these are the course you presented at Sannieshof?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you also give courses to other people in the AWB?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I did, Chairperson, it was the instruction of the Kommandant of the different regions and certain people were identified who then had to be trained.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that was then in the use of explosives?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And during February 1994 there was a meeting at Ventersdorp, can you just tell the Committee were meetings often held at Ventersdorp?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, there were lots of meetings held there.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why was Ventersdorp the place where meetings were to be held?

MR STRYDOM: Because the head office of the AWB was situated there, Chairperson and it was also centrally located to all the, as far as all the fighting Generals are concerned.

MS VAN DER WALT: And Eugene Terre'blanche, was that also his office?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that was indeed the case, it was his office.

MS VAN DER WALT: And during this meeting did you receive any instructions?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I did, Chairperson. At this meeting I received instructions from my General, Nico Fourie, to start with this onslaught against the election which was to follow.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this General Fourie, was he one of the Generals who died in the skirmish which took place in Mmabatho?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you remember the exact date when you received this instruction?

MR STRYDOM: Unfortunately not.

MS VAN DER WALT: But it was before the Mmabatho incident?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And was it said to you that you must now start with the operations? Where would this have been?

MR STRYDOM: It would have taken place in my region, the diamond region.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did they tell you which targets you had to identify?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, the targets were white schools which became non-white schools, as well as any institutions which the National Party or the ANC Alliance was in favour or they were in favour of those parties.

MS VAN DER WALT: And were instructions given with regards to certain people?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson. People in the ANC who were in favour of the ANC/PAC Alliance and more specifically their businesses or their property.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the purpose, why did you have to focus on these targets?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, according to the information which we received and also the instruction, these were the people who in the community if we acted against them we would have been able to prevent the elections.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are these then people who supported the ANC/SACP Alliance?

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: After the meeting in Ventersdorp you attended a further meeting - and that's on page 49, Chairperson, at a certain Mr Koos Hough, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What type of meeting was this?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, it was one of the big meetings during that time before the election. The final planning would have been done there and the people in the diamond region would then go into action before the elections.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what was discussed at that meeting?

MR STRYDOM: They discussed - the BKA was present as well as the Volksfront members as well as the AWB, Chairperson. The discussions were about the evening before the election and that specific evening bombs had to explode in the diamond region.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now if you speak of the BKA, are you referring to the "Boere Krisis Aksie"?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And during that time there was also the Afrikaner Volksfront under General Constand Viljoen?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did these other parties also receive instructions?

MR STRYDOM: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your instruction?

MR STRYDOM: My instructions were to create these explosions in Lichtenburg/Sanniehof/Ottersdal region, Chairperson. And I received a direct instruction that day from General Etsebeth together with the leader, Eugene Terre'blanche to blow up a gas depot and also a railway line, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: This gas depot, is that the gas depot at Lichtenburg?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you receive any further instructions?

MR STRYDOM: The instructions which I received was that I also had to blow up the railway line.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what about the instructions for General Fourie?

MR STRYDOM: The instructions which I got earlier that year in Ventersdorp were still my instructions and it was that I had to train people in the use of explosives.

MS VAN DER WALT: And after you received these instructions, did you do anything?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, yes. General Fourie's instructions I followed, I got explosives together, I trained people and the instructions which I received that day with regards to the Lichtenburg gas depot and railway line I did not execute them.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you started with certain explosions, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Page 50, Chairperson. 

&#9;You and Mr Breytenbach, the other applicant then executed a certain operation in Bultfontein.

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you do?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, according to the information we received an ANC meeting would have taken place at Bultfontein. Mr Breytenbach and myself then placed a landmine there, Chairperson. 

MS VAN DER WALT: Under whose instruction did you do that?

MR STRYDOM: Under the instruction of the leader, Mr Eugene Terre'blanche, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, where exactly did you place the mine?

MR STRYDOM: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Where exactly did you place the mine, the landmine? You said you put a landmine at Bultfontein but where precisely was it, in the street or where?

MR STRYDOM: At the taxi rank in Bultfontein. It was at the entrance of the taxi rank, Chairperson, in Bultfontein.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did it look like, this area where the taxi rank was and where exactly did you place the mine?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, as far as I remember the taxi rank was at the side of the town in Bultfontein. The taxi rank had an entrance and an exit and the landmine was planted at the entrance or the exit, I can't remember, I'm not sure, but it was at the gate.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your purpose, why did you place it there?

MR STRYDOM: The purpose was because an ANC meeting would have taken place there according to our information and it was in order to create chaos in order to prevent the elections from happening.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well. So you've placed this explosive device at the entrance, did you want that a vehicle detonate this landmine?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, that is what we wanted to happen. A vehicle would have created the explosion.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that was your purpose?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then what happened?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, unfortunately a person with a bicycle went over the explosive device and unfortunately he died. This is the person Kleinbooi Ramolla, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can you remember the date or the month?

MR STRYDOM: It was in February, I think the 28th Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who was with you when you placed this device there?

MR STRYDOM: Mr Piet Breytenbach, the other applicant, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: It was only the two of you?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, it was only the two of us.

MS VAN DER WALT: You make mention ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms van der Walt, you're mike is not on.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't get mine off.

MS VAN DER WALT: You mention in paragraph 18 on page 15 that after the instruction of General Fourie you went and placed this bomb there, are these the instructions that you received in February of 1994 in Ventersdorp? Is this the instruction to which you refer?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did General Fourie specifically tell you to go to this particular taxi rank or did you have to find your own targets?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, according to information that we had, we had to find our own targets, targets were not pointed out for us.

MS VAN DER WALT: But the instruction was to create chaos specifically where ANC/SACP persons would be?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: During May of 1994 - paragraph 19, Chairperson, on page 50 ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say May?

MS VAN DER WALT: I'm sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say May 1994?

MS VAN DER WALT: No, March.

CHAIRPERSON: March, yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Sorry.

&#9;Further explosions were caused by you.

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Could you tell the Honourable Chairperson where and how this happened?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, this was at Kazee's Cash Store, this was a shop.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where, in which town was this?

MR STRYDOM: This was in Sannieshof as well as Doringbult Primary School which was previously a white school and this was close to Delareyville as well as the Momoroti Primary School at Ottersdal.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we then start with Mr Kazee's Cash Store, why did you cause an explosion there?

MR STRYDOM: Because he was a strong supporter of the ANC according to our information. 

MS VAN DER WALT: And at the Doringbult Primary School?

MR STRYDOM: Doringbult Primary School was previously a white school, Chairperson, which was handed over.

MS VAN DER WALT: Ja?

MR STRYDOM: And it became a non-white school.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the Momoroti Primary School?

MR STRYDOM: The Momoroti Primary School was a school that was built by an AND supporter and was maintained by him. This was a Mr Beukes in Ottosdal.

MS VAN DER WALT: And these explosive devices according to your application did not detonate?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson, they didn't explode.

MS VAN DER WALT: So no damage was done to the properties there?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Strydom, why didn't they explode, were they found and defused or was it just faulty explosives?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, most of them were faulty devices.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you placed these explosive devices at the school, when would this be detonated, during the period that the children would be in school or in the evening or what was the position?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the bombs that we placed were for the purpose that it had to go off at night and the explosives were set for 3 o'clock at night.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the one at the shop?

MR STRYDOM: The same time, at three in the morning it would explode.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR STRYDOM: Not to cause any injury to people, it was more concerning the property of persons at that stage.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you mention on page 51 at paragraph 20 that about a week after you placed the explosive device you went to the SABC tower in Zweizereineke, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you do there?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, at that stage the media was also seen as the enemy of the AWB as to their support of the government of the day at that stage and to the ANC Alliance.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what did you want to do there?

MR STRYDOM: We wanted to damage one of those broadcasting towers so it would not work in that area.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you do it then?

MR STRYDOM: We did it.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then what happened?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, it did detonate but no damage was done to the tower.

MS VAN DER WALT: You went back twice, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And both times nothing happened?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And during April '94, was that - you cannot recall the specific dates, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: But this was before the election?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You placed another explosive device at Agriman at Ottosdal?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you place the explosive device there?

MR STRYDOM: The owner of the property was a BKA member and infiltrated the AWB and according to our information he would pass over intelligence to the Security Police who worked for the government.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then you mention a Mr Smit who owned this business and you say he was an ANC orientated person, he was favourable towards the ANC?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this the one you speak of?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And who accompanied you when you placed this explosive device?

MR STRYDOM: Mr Piet Breytenbach.

MS VAN DER WALT: What happened there?

MR STRYDOM: The devices did detonate and damage was done to the building as well as some other buildings in the surrounding area.

MS VAN DER WALT: Was anybody killed or injured?

MR STRYDOM: Nobody was killed or injured there, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: When did you place this explosive device, during the evening or during the day?

MR STRYDOM: This was at night and this one was also detonated at three in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms van der Walt, just before you proceed.

&#9;Mr Strydom, you've spoken now about placing explosive devices at those two schools and at Kazee's Cash Store, at the tower etc., now was Mr Breytenbach with you on each of those occasions?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Just the two of you?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can I continue?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

MS VAN DER WALT: On the 12th of April 1994 you once again placed explosive devices?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: This was at the Sannieshof Liquor Store?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And who accompanied you?

MR STRYDOM: It was Mr Breytenbach and Mr Piet Wessels, one of the other persons whom I had on one of my courses.

MS VAN DER WALT: Very well. And you also went to a Doctor Breytenbach, a medical doctor?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: You went to his consulting rooms and placed a bomb there?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you place the explosive devices at these two places?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the information that we had at that stage was a person whom we knew as Johnny Portuguese, everybody in the are knew him as such, and he was favourable towards the ANC because he donated money to the ANC as well as Doctor Breytenbach who was a supporter of the ANC, Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did these explosions take place?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson, both explosions took place.

MS VAN DER WALT: And was anybody killed or injured?

MR STRYDOM: Once again nobody was killed or injured, Chairperson, this was also in the middle of the night, in the early morning.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why at that stage did you take Mr Wessels with you and all the other times you only had Mr Breytenbach accompanying you?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, because at that stage we stayed at Mr Wessels' farm and we manufactured explosives there and because he completed the course he went with us at that stage.

MS VAN DER WALT: On page 52, paragraph 23 you mention that you stayed at Wessels' farm, this is at Groot Mariko, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you needed some more explosives, what did you do then?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I contacted General Etsebeth and told him that we needed some more explosives and a while after that I received a telephone call from an unknown person who gave me the delivery place of the explosives where we had to collect it.

MS VAN DER WALT: That's the manner how you went about acquiring explosives?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson, certain types of explosives which were not easily accessible.

MS VAN DER WALT: How did you get your hands on these explosives, were they handed to you, what was the position?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the telephone call that I received from an anonymous person afterwards was to tell me that I had to collect the explosives on a bridge on the De La Rey Road. He told us what time we had to be there and found the explosives there at the bridge but I did not see who delivered it there.

MS VAN DER WALT: And where did you take the explosives to?

MR STRYDOM: We went back to Mr Piet Wessels' farm, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: I notice that in your application you say you went to the farm of Mr Piet Breytenbach's father and you buried the explosives there.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, we went and buried it there but he had no knowledge of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms van der Walt.

&#9;What sort of explosives were these, Mr Strydom, were they military explosives or the sort of explosives they use on mines, dynamite, what was it?

MR STRYDOM: It was more explosives that they used in the mines, Chairperson, Dyna Gel, Nitro Glycerine. That is from fertilizer.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the charges?

MR STRYDOM: This was also received from the mines.

MS VAN DER WALT: So Mr Breytenbach's father had no knowledge of what was stored on his farm or what you were busy with?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you go about this secretively?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson, we did not want to involve many people.

MS VAN DER WALT: At the AWB head office you collected detonators?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson, it was a meeting that we had there where I contacted Mr Cliffie Barnard and he gave me some explosives at head quarters.

MS VAN DER WALT: Cliff Barnard, this is the accused who is responsible for the explosion in Johannesburg before the election?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did he work at head office?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: When you speak of head office where you collected these detonators, was this in the building or was it hidden somewhere?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, it was in the building, it was a storage room in the office of head office in Ventersdorp.

MS VAN DER WALT: The leader, Eugene Terre'blanche, would he be aware that these detonators would be stored there?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, my personal opinion is that I believe that he knew. It was a storage room where everyday cleaning agents were stored, brooms and such.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you continue further on page 52, paragraph 25 you mention that you bought pistols, can you tell the Honourable Committee what happened there and why.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I did not buy the pistols myself, I had very little money at that stage. Mr Piet Wessels who was with us the evening, when we bought the pistols at Hartebeesfontein or in that area where he bought three Z88 pistols with a cheque, a cheque of Mr Wessels.

MS VAN DER WALT: From whom did he buy it?

MR STRYDOM: He bought it from Mr Lukas Swart of the BKA at that stage.

MS VAN DER WALT: And why did you buy these weapons?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, we bought the weapons because it was cheap and at that stage it was difficult to acquire weapons and when we found the place to buy it we bought it so it could be used in the war when we go over to war.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you have any knowledge whether Eugene Terre'blanche at several meetings mentioned that you had to acquire weapons for the war?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, at several meetings he said that we had to collect weapons as well as ammunition and if we couldn't buy it we had to steal it.

MS VAN DER WALT: And the farm where you and Mr Breytenbach lived, were you also in possession you and Mr Breytenbach, you were also charged of the possession of a 357 Taurus and a 308 rifle and several rounds of ammunition, where did you get these weapons?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the revolver was Mr Piet Breytenbach's as well as the rifle. I think one of the two he inherited and the other on he bought and it was being handed over to him. The weapons were stored in a cupboard on Groot Mariko, Mr Wessels' farm.

MS VAN DER WALT: And there were no licences for these firearms?

MR STRYDOM: Not as far as I know, Mr Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You continue, Mr Breytenbach, Mr Wessels and yourself were arrested before the elections, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Why did you decide not to execute your instruction to blow up the gas depot in Lichtenburg?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the gas depot is located centrally in Lichtenburg, there are houses surrounding the place and it would have killed many people if we did execute our instruction there.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you received the instruction from General Etsebeth, why did you not execute it?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I did receive the instruction from General Etsebeth with the approval of the leader, Mr Eugene Terre'blanche. I did not execute the instruction because I did not go out to kill people, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was General Fourie's opinion with regards to the killing of people?

MR STRYDOM: At no stage did General Fourie give me any instruction to kill people or to injure any people.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you do any reconnaissance work in Lichtenburg at the gas depot?

MR STRYDOM: I did, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You several times mentioned that you caused these explosions to stop the elections, what do you think would have happened, why did you think that the election would not go ahead if these explosions took place?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, as soon as one causes chaos in any circumstances, it would not go as it was planned and the chief reason was to create chaos before the elections to keep the people away from the voting boxes so that they do not vote.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you wanted to install fear in the public?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you personally gain in this?

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson, at no stage. Not even with bail did I receive any assistance.

MS VAN DER WALT: And on whose behalf did you commit these actions?

MR STRYDOM: It was on instruction for the AWB and for my people and my fatherland. 

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you believe that you would further the objectives of the AWB in this manner?

MR STRYDOM: That is what I believed, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you have any grudge against anybody where you caused these explosions or at the taxi rank?

MR STRYDOM: None, Chairperson, I did not even know these people. (end of tape) 

MS VAN DER WALT: ... after there was a change in the country with regard to the acts that you committed?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I'm very sorry for what I've done. After the time since we've been charged and we appeared in the Supreme Court and I can now see that things can happen if negotiated. And we were told that the AWB would not, if they would negotiate it would not help because they were negotiating with a communist party.

MS VAN DER WALT: Are you still a member of the AWB?

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Where are you employed?

MR STRYDOM: I work in St Lucia, Chairperson. I am a traffic officer there.

MS VAN DER WALT: After you were arrested, did you participate in any actions or meetings of the AWB?

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you also in Exhibit B state the objectives of the AWB and reasons as to why these actions were political actions, is that correct?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And do you confirm the contents of Annexure B?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Is there anything else you would like to add?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, only that I am sorry for what I have done, and for as long as I live I will not do these things again.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Prinsloo, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Strydom, when you planted the landmine at the taxi rank did you foresee the possibility that somebody could have died?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, I did, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And according to a statement which you will find on page 98 of the bundle, Chairperson. It's a statement of a certain Mr Manual Amaro Pereiro, and he says amongst others and I'll read it, it's in English:

&#9;&#9;"In my opinion the only reason ..."

The words aren't very clear.

&#9;&#9;"... them had to plant bomb at my business was because I let black people sleep in my hotel."

Was that the reason why you planted the bomb there?

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson, it was not the reason.

MR PRINSLOO: And the bomb you planted was part of the liquor store, it was not at the hotel.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, it was at the liquor store next to the hotel, it had nothing to do with the hotel.

MR PRINSLOO: The applicant, Mr Breytenbach whom I represent, according to my instructions he always acted under your command on behalf of the AWB?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson. Even though we had the same rank I was still the senior officer whilst we fought this war.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, just a few.

&#9;Mr Strydom, as I understand it there reason why you planted these explosives to the various places which you have just mentioned is because you did not want the elections to go ahead.

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson, in order to create chaos.

MR MAPOMA: And because the then National Party Government was collaborating with the ANC towards those elections?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And you had to attack the ANC oriented areas and supporters, is that so?

MR STRYDOM: The properties of those people, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And in all these attacks that you waged, you have never attacked any National Party Government oriented property, is that not the case?

CHAIRPERSON: There was the tower, the SABC. I don't know, they would vehemently deny that it was Nationalist Party but it was at that stage one could say.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It was a government paid for property.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I understand, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you can put the question. Carry on, I'm not stopping you.

MR MAPOMA: Why were your attacks - why were your targets predominantly ANC and not that of the National Party Government?

MR STRYDOM: &#9;Chairperson, as you yourself said, it was not only the ANC, if you look at Agriman, that was also a National Party member, Chairperson. And it was not only meant for the ANC.

MR MAPOMA: And let us go to the bomb that killed Mr Ramolla. You say you had to place that bomb because there was going to be an ANC meeting in that area?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: But surely the meetings was not going to be at the taxi rank?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, that was the means of transport as far as we knew because most of the ANC members would arrive by means of public transport, people who would have gone to the town.

MR MAPOMA: And am I correct when I say that that taxi rank was a taxi rank used by the black people?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, by ANC supporters for that specific meeting, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: That was a public day, the taxi rank was used by everybody, not necessarily people for the meeting.

MR STRYDOM: That's correct, Chairperson but we felt whilst we investigated this, that the person who was not a member of the ANC would not go to town that specific day because he would have been scared.

MR MAPOMA: Why? Why would a person not go to town because there's an ANC meeting?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, if we look at the previous marches the ANC held in towns and the damage which was caused, because of that we inferred that any person who was not a member or supporter of the ANC would not go to town. We also know that most of the workers did not go to work on such days.

MR MAPOMA: Is it not because you attacked that place because you wanted to kill black people?

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson, under no circumstances.

MR MAPOMA: And at the school which was owned by Mr Beukes, Mr Beukes was not a teacher of that school, not so?

MR STRYDOM: No, he wasn't a teacher. He lives right opposite the school.

MR MAPOMA: And there was no way that he would be injured if that bomb detonated?

MR STRYDOM: Under no circumstances, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: The potential people who would be injured are those black children who were students at that school.

MR STRYDOM: I did not hear the question properly.

MR MAPOMA: Had the bomb that you planted there detonated, the only potential victims there are the black scholars who were attending that school, is ...(intervention)

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson, the bomb which they found there had a watch mechanism and it would have detonated at 3 o'clock in the morning, like all the others.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a boarding school, did they kids sleeping in a hostel there that might have been a victim if it had gone off?

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson, it was basically just a school, people only attended the school during the day.

MR MAPOMA: On page 94 of the paginated bundle there is a statement there by Mr Beukes, the owner of that school and on the 5th paragraph there, Mr Beukes denies that he was in any way oriented to the ANC, what is your comment to that?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, everybody in the Ottosdal vicinity as well as Sannieshof and Delareyville know Mr Beukes and also knows that he's an ANC supporter as regards to politics and also that he strongly supported the National Party/ANC Alliance.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, I have no further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt, do you have any re-examination?

MS VAN DER WALT: No re-examination by Ms van der Walt.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: No, questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Just a few, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Strydom, I didn't follow you correctly. You said Mr Beukes was a supporter of the NP/ANC Alliance.

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Was there such an alliance?

MR STRYDOM: With the negotiations yes. According to the AWB the National Party since the release of the State President, Mr Mandela the National Party was in an alliance with the ANC.

MR SIBANYONI: You are referring to them negotiating the future of the country together, not necessarily that they were in partnership in any form?

MR STRYDOM: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Usually there are some night watchmen at schools, at this particular school was there no night watchmen?

MR STRYDOM: No, not at all.

MR SIBANYONI: You say you didn't implement the mission at Lichtenburg because there were people living there, you didn't go out to kill people. Which people were living there?

MR STRYDOM: People from the prison live around there, as well as policemen and all members of the public. It had nothing to do with race, it was a multi-racial area. There were people from all sections of society living there.

MR SIBANYONI: But if you were not going out to kill people, you wouldn't put a bomb at an entrance of a taxi rank because at that one specifically there will be a person who will be killed if that bomb was detonated.

MR STRYDOM: That is correct, Chairperson, we foresaw that people could get injured with the explosive device in Bultfontein but it was more about the meeting and hopefully we wanted it to cause damage to a vehicle. I was of the opinion that a big vehicle would create the explosion and that would be damaged. Unfortunately it was a person on a bicycle.

MR SIBANYONI: Didn't you stop the mission at Lichtenburg because you foresaw that also white people were likely to be killed but the one at Bultfontein taxi rank exclusively black people would be killed?

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: In other words you were not racist in your activities?

MR STRYDOM: No, not at all. Since I can remember I've been working with all races in South Africa and I also have good friends who are from other races. I'm not a racist.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, that landmine that was placed at the taxi rank, was it a homemade landmine or was it a military landmine, they type that the army uses?

MR STRYDOM: It was homemade landmine, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know much about explosives but how powerful was that mine, let's say compared to the average landmine that's used by the military in a war situation?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, if I can put it on a scale of 1-10, according to a military landmine I would say it's about 2 and military one would be about 10.

CHAIRPERSON: So your whole experience in this period that you've related, where you were a member of the Special Force, did you stay a member of that Special Force, you didn't become a member of the, or was it part of the "Ystergarde" or any other separate force within the movement?

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson, we were used to work with them in groups at several meetings but I was not a member of the "Wen Kommando" or the "Ystergarde".

CHAIRPERSON: "Orde van die Dood" and those sort of divisions?

MR STRYDOM: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And after the death of General Fourie in Mmbatho, who did you report to?

MR STRYDOM: His second in command who was then called Oscar. I received instructions from him, but there weren't any more instructions because it was so close to the elections, Chairperson. The last meeting was the one at Mr Hough's house where I received instructions from General Etsebeth together with the leader, Eugene Terre'blanche. It was with his approval.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, there's another one to come.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Strydom, it may happen that I didn't understand you very well. In connection ...(inaudible).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

MR SIBANYONI: It may happen that I didn't understand you well. In connection with the planting of the bomb at Bultfontein taxi rank, I thought I heard you initially say it was an instruction from Eugene Terre'blanche but when we read your documents it refers to General Fourie. Can you clarify me on that one?

MR STRYDOM: He was present and his instructions had the approval of Mr Terre'blanche.

MR SIBANYONI: Who is higher in rank between Eugene Terre'blanche and General Fourie?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, Eugene Terre'blanche was the leader of the AWB, therefore he would have had the highest rank but General Etsebeth was the General under his command and he was a fighting General.

MR SIBANYONI: You say the order was authorised by him but given by General Fourie?

MR STRYDOM: That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt, any questions arising out of that last question?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO 

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No question, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Strydom, that concludes your testimony.

MS VAN DER WALT: That is the case of the applicant.

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

 

 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;19TH NOVEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH

APPLICATION NO: AM 5167/97

HELD AT:&#9;WELKOM

DAY :&#9;1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, may we change positions or the use of the microphones.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, you intend Mr Breytenbach to give evidence.

MR PRINSLOO: I can call Mr Breytenbach, Mr Chairman. May I just before he is called ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, your mike.

PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, on certain pages I would like to make certain amendments with the leave of the Committee. 

&#9;The first one being on page 14 of the bundle, that's paragraph 11. The name General Oelofse to be deleted, Mr Chairman. And then on page 15 of the bundle, paragraph 12, the fifth line from the bottom of that particular paragraph, the name Oelofse to be substituted by Etsebeth, "Generaal Etsebeth". It should be a D, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman. And at page 18 of the bundle, paragraph 23, it should read - the word "Piet Breytenbach" must be substituted by de Wet Strydom. It refers to the applicant himself. It says:

&#9;&#9;"Me, de Wet Strydom and Piet Wessels"

I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, page 19 the top of the page the same would follow:

&#9;&#9;"Me and de Wet Strydom"

Instead of Piet Breytenbach. And then the fourth line of that same paragraph "General Oelofse" to be substituted again with "General Etsebeth". That will be all, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms van der Walt, do you have any objection to those amendments to those amendments being affected?

MS VAN DER WALT: No objections.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No objection, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Prinsloo, we'll then effect those amendments as stated by yourself.

MR PRINSLOO: I'm indebted to the Committee, Mr Chairman. I call the applicant, Mr Breytenbach, Mr Chairperson.

PETER MAGIEL BREYTENBACH: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Prinsloo?

EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Breytenbach, you together with your co-applicant are applying for amnesty for the acts as we find them in the indictment as well as in your application. The acts appear in part of the bundle of documents before the Honourable Committee, from page 71, is that correct?

MR BREYTENBACH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Is it correct that your application is contained in the bundle from page 2 up until page 48?

MR BREYTENBACH: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And do you confirm the contents thereof?

MR BREYTENBACH: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: You've heard the evidence of your co-applicant, do you confirm his evidence?

MR BREYTENBACH: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: And do you also confirm that you were acting under his command as a member of the AWB?

MR BREYTENBACH: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: How long were you a member of the AWB?

MR BREYTENBACH: Since 1987 up until the elections and the arrest.

MR PRINSLOO: Are you still a member of the AWB?

MR BREYTENBACH: No.

MR PRINSLOO: And as far as these acts are concerned, the one at Bultfontein where someone died and where the landmine was planted, did you foresee the possibility that a person might be killed?

MR BREYTENBACH: Yes, I did foresee such a possibility, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: At any stage during the planting of these explosive devices at the two schools and as well as Mr Kazee's store at the tower as well as the liquor store and as well as at Doctor Breytenbach's consulting rooms, did you intend to kill someone?

MR BREYTENBACH: Not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: And the school which your co-applicant referred to, the school of Mr Beukes, is it so that that was a farm school and it was also situated on a farm and on his property?

MR BREYTENBACH: That is correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that stage did you intend to kill anyone?

MR BREYTENBACH: No, not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: Were your actions aimed - was it based on a racist point of view?

MR BREYTENBACH: Not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: The incident of Mr Smit, his business, did you intend to kill anybody there?

MR BREYTENBACH: Not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: And the Agriman business?

MR BREYTENBACH: Not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: And the Sannieshof Liquor Store, the person there, Mr Pereiro says in affidavit on page 98 of the documents, that it was only done because black people attended that hotel, is that true?

MR BREYTENBACH: Not at all.

MR PRINSLOO: According to your information and instructions was he a supporter of the ANC or was he favourable disposed towards the ANC?

MR BREYTENBACH: He was a supporter of the ANC according to the information we received and we also knew about a lot of money which he gave to the ANC and that's why we attacked him property.

MR PRINSLOO: The firearms of which you are accused, the ones you have illegally possessed, they mention three pistols, Z88 pistols, do you know about them?

MR BREYTENBACH: Yes, I do.

MR PRINSLOO: Were you present when those pistols were found in the vehicle of Mr Piet Wessels?

MR BREYTENBACH: Yes, indeed. When the pistols were found was after we were arrested and they searched our vehicles.

MR PRINSLOO: But did you know about the buying of those pistols by Mr Piet Wessels from Mr Swart?

MR BREYTENBACH: Yes, I know about that.

MR PRINSLOO: Do you associate yourself with that?

MR BREYTENBACH: Yes, I do.

MR PRINSLOO: And as far as the Taurus pistol is concerned, do you know anything about that pistol?

MR BREYTENBACH: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: What do you know?

MR BREYTENBACH: It's a firearm which I bought about two weeks before we became involved in the skirmishes and I had it with me in terms of the question that I was applying for a new licence.

MR PRINSLOO: But at that stage you had it illegally?

MR BREYTENBACH: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And as far as the 303 rifle is concerned, do you know about that rifle?

MR BREYTENBACH: Yes, I do, it's a 308. It's a rifle which was inherited from my father-in-law by my wife and I took it with me because we had to talk over the barrel of a gun as was proposed in all the meetings.

MR PRINSLOO: These deeds you committed and the possession of explosives and the weapons and ammunition, did you do it for yourself or did you do it on behalf of someone else?

MR BREYTENBACH: The motive for these acts was for the AWB, it was a political struggle in which the AWB was involved at that stage and the objectives were to obtain our own land by using these methods.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: Mr Breytenbach, the AWB was preparing for war, is that right?

MR BREYTENBACH: That's correct.

DR TSOTSI: Did you believe that this war could be fought and won without any bloodshed at all?

MR BREYTENBACH: No, that's not correct but we were in the process of committing this war. We couldn't foresee what the end result would be.

DR TSOTSI: But you do accept that bloodshed was a certainty, that in a war like that, the type of war that you were engaged in, there would be bloodshed?

MR BREYTENBACH: It was possible that loss of blood would have taken place but we wanted to restrict it to the minimum.

DR TSOTSI: That is all, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Breytenbach, during this period that you operated with Mr Strydom, were you a full time operative of the AWB?

MR BREYTENBACH: No, Chairperson, I was a farmer at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you belong to any other arm or division of the AWB or any other movement besides, let's call it a unit, that you worked with together with Mr Strydom and sometimes Mr Wessels?

MR BREYTENBACH: Mr Chairperson, no, initially I was a "Wen Kommando" member but I was transferred to the Special Forces.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, any questions arising?

MR PRINSLOO: No questions arising, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Breytenbach, that concludes your testimony.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, I'm in possession of certain video material that relates to meetings that were held by the AWB at various times. I do not intend showing it to the Committee. If the Committee so desires as to look at them at some stage, they are available.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that then concludes the evidence and that is the case for the applicant, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, there will be no evidence on behalf of the victim, but Chairperson, I would at this point propose to put forward the name of Mrs Dinah Ramolla, the widow.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell it please?

MR MAPOMA: Dina: D-I-N-A-H, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is she a widow?

MR MAPOMA: She's a widow yes, Chairperson, a widow to the late Kleinbooi Ramolla.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MAPOMA: Pardon, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MAPOMA: Yes, it's care of: Bultfontein Hoër Skool, Bultfontein. She has been notified, Chairperson, and pursuant thereto she dedicated her daughter and son to attend the hearings. I've consulted with them and they have indicated that they do not intend to oppose the amnesty application except for them to want the mother to be put down as a victim.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think also the daughter and son as well, being the next-of-kin.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson, I will in due course have their full particulars.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Walt and Mr Prinsloo, are you in a position to make submissions now?

MR PRINSLOO: If you so desire, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think it would be better to just make the submissions, then it's finished. It's better than waiting for written submissions.

MR PRINSLOO IN ARGUMENT: As it pleases, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Honourable Chairperson and Members of the Committee, it is my respectful submission that the applicant has made a full disclosure. That he made public all facts which are relevant to this application concerning the deeds for which he applies for amnesty.

That is application in itself is complete and that he meets the specific requirements. It is completed in the document here and also in the evidence of the applicant, Mr de Wet Strydom and so confirmed by the second applicant.

&#9;Inasfar as the requirements are concerned, Mr Chairperson, firstly regarding the motive. It was evident that the applicant testifies that it is politically motivated in accordance with an instruction from the AWB to stop the election and it was not for personal gain but with a political objective. The acts were committed during the time where there was political unrest and there were unrests throughout the whole country and at the stage the applicant committed these acts.

&#9;As to the requirements, as to the legal nature of this applicant as in the case of other judgments that have been given by the Amnesty Committee, I would like to submit that in that instance these acts were committed.

&#9;The objective of the acts as it is required in Section 23(3)(d), I respectfully submit that it is clear that the opposition was the ANC/SACP Alliance and the National Party to a certain extent and it was not aimed on the basis of any racisism which has no political basis at all.

&#9;According to the evidence of this applicant, he acted on instruction of the other applicant, de Wet Strydom, and de Wet Strydom's evidence is that he acted on instruction of the leaders of the AWB, the top structure, Eugene Terre'blanche, General Etsebeth and General Fourie who is now deceased, and he acted for the furtherance of the AWB as required by the Act. The AWB is also a movement who complies with the requirements of the Act. It is an organisation and therefore it is clear it was clearly in several of these applications.

&#9;I would like to argue, Chairperson, as to the proportionality of the acts committed, were not out of proportion. If one looks at the first act where the person was killed, where the bicycle went over the landmine, where the objective was there to stop the election from taking place and the meeting of the ANC was to be held there. And with that objective and in the time the act was committed it was not out of proportion. 

&#9;The other acts which were committed at the two schools, at the shop where the explosives did not detonate, by the tower of the SABC where no damage was done or very little damage, that this was also not out of proportion.

&#9;With regards to the liquor store, the evidence of the applicant was that that person was a supporter of the ANC and the purpose was not to kill anybody but to move persons not to participate in the election, as well as that of Agriman and so also the consulting rooms of Doctor Breytenbach whom he believed were members of the ANC.

&#9;At this stage I would not like to burden you with the Committee's judgments when have already been rendered, they have been put forward by you at other instances. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, I confirm the argument of Mr Prinsloo and I would just like to mention certain aspects. I'm not going to quote all of them but I would just like to point Section 31(b). This Act was founded so that the Committee's objective was to promote reconciliation and this is the instruction of the Committee.

&#9;I would like to submit to the Honourable Committee that the Committee's objective is to make the application more accessible and to make it easier in the unit so as to reconcile the country. I would like to submit that the applicant, according to Section 20(1), has convinced the Committee and specifically to the English Act which says "satisfy". It can be argued that in the Afrikaans text it must be a heavier burden but I would like to submit that the applicants have convinced the Committee that they are entitled to amnesty and that they complied with all the requirements of Section 20(1)(a). Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no submissions.

NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. We will reserve the decision. A written decision will be handed down in the near future. I would just like to thank the legal representatives and Mr Mapoma for their assistance in this matter. I think this will now be a convenient time to take the tea adjournment, it's ten past eleven, and then hopefully we will be able to proceed thereafter with the next matter on the roll, thank you very much.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;19TH NOVEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE

APPLICATION NO: AM 3671/96

HELD AT:&#9;WELKOM

DAY :&#9;1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Earlier this morning I introduced the Committee to you but for those person who weren't here and have arrived for this particular hearing, I'll just briefly introduce the Committee to you. On my right is Doctor Tsotsi, he's an attorney from Port Elizabeth and a Member of the Amnesty Committee, and on my left if Mr Sibanyoni, he's an attorney from Pretoria and also a Member of the Amnesty Committee as am I. I am Selwyn Miller, I'm a judge in the High Court in the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division there.

CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT

CHAIRPERSON: We are now going to commence with the hearing of the application of Messrs Kriel, Labuschagne, Botes and van der Watt. I would request the legal representatives please to just place themselves on record.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, the name is Loubscher. I am appearing for Messrs Labuschagne, Botes, van der Watt and Kriel, instructed by Mr Ernst J B Penzhorn Attorneys from Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Loubscher.

MR TAKA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, my name is Gordon Taka. I am representing the victims in count 2 on page 77, that is Ewin Tanyane and Porotlone, the victims in count 3, P Bayo, Solfafa, Anasoon, Khati, Shadrack Kulashe and Eliza Boneni and also victims on count 6 on page 77 of the bundle, M P Ramurakane, Margaret Malinga, Stephen Semelo and Andries Semelo. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Taka.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir, I'm Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Loubscher?

MR LOUBSCHER: Chairperson, may I present to the Amnesty Committee the application of Mr Labuschagne. I would like to call him to give evidence.

JAN CORNELIUS LABUSCHAGNE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Labuschagne, you have completed an affidavit, the original and copies are already in the possession of the Committee, the Evidence Leader as well as Mr Taka and you also have a copy of this affidavit before you.

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I do, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher, could we mark this affidavit as Exhibit A?

MR LOUBSCHER: Yes, Sir, thank you.

&#9;Mr Labuschagne, from paragraph 1 of the affidavit you introduce yourself, who you are and your what your profession is. Can you please read the affidavit into the record from paragraph 2?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, Chairperson.

&#9;"In 1993 I was a member of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging, the AWB and the Volksfront and I had the rank of Colonel in the first-named movement.

&#9;During or around October 1993 I received instructions from Andries Stefanus Kriel then a Brigadier in the AWB and the deputy leader of the Volksfront in the Northern Free State to organise a cell to form part of a co-ordinated campaign at the start of, the 8th of November 1983 on a continuous basis by means of explosives to damage logical connections as power installations and railway lines, a show of power of the white opposition received publicity ..."

...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Labuschagne, could you please read a bit slower.

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Very well, I will start with the previous paragraph.

&#9;"Was to get publicity for the opposition of the whites in the direction that the previous government was moving in, as well as the previous government and the ANC's ignoring the Volkstaat idea in the constitutional negotiations.

&#9;Through these actions the previous government had to be forced to take the Afrikaner volk's ideals of a Volkstaat seriously and send a message to the ANC as to the seriousness of the Afrikaner's ideal of the Volkstaat. The explosions had the purpose of making the leaders of the Volksfront stronger in the further constitutional negotiation process to the acquisition of a Volkstaat for the Afrikaner volk.

&#9;Mr Kriel emphasised that there had to be a continuous onslaught to obtain these political objectives, and in accordance to the planning no life had to be lost. In accordance with my instructions I regularly reported back to Mr Kriel as to our progress in the execution of this planned campaign.

&#9;The senseless assaults of black individuals which was on the files of some of the members of the AWB was rejected by both myself ...(end of tape)

&#9;... lack of discipline in the AWB led to Mr Kriel's resignation in the AWB and I did not renew my membership in January 1994.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, if I could just interrupt you there. Did you indeed resign from the AWB?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: And your statement that Mr Kriel resigned from the AWB in December 1993, is that the impression that you have?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Please continue.

MR LABUSCHAGNE: 

&#9;"The 21 explosions which was part of the campaign can be divided into two categories, 14 attacks on power and railway installations which was property of the government, 7 actions in residential areas of ANC supporters and offices and facilities that were used by the ANC or their supporters.

&#9;The first category was aimed to force the then government to recognise the ideal of the Volkstaat. The rejection of the idea by the NP Government was a slap in the face. The second category was aimed at the ANC, to bring them under the impression of the seriousness of this ideal of the Volkstaat and to encourage the ANC to agree with the forming of such a Volkstaat. As it would seem, two thirds of these attacks were aimed at power and railway connections. If a Volkstaat Committee was put in by the then government, these actions would never have taken place.

&#9;The establishment of the ANC Government has to ascribed to this campaign. As explained above, I seek amnesty for the incidents for which I am charged: 22 charges of offences in accordance with Article 54.1 of Act 74 of 1982 and alternatively offences of Article 54(3) of Act 74 of 1982. Alternatively, damage of property, 17 charges of attempted murder, 1 charge of offence of Section 2 of Act 75 of 1969 and 2 charges of offence in accordance with Section 28(1) of Act 26 of 1956.

MR LOUBSCHER: You then proceed in paragraph 5.2 of your statement and you explain there precisely what the charges entail and this corresponds with what we see on page 63 to 84 of the bundle. Do you confirm paragraph 5.2 as being correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Could you then continue with paragraph 5.3?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: 

&#9;"All these acts were committed directly as a result of the instruction which I received from Kriel in October 1993 and it made part of a campaign of actions according to the guidelines as mentioned above. And we continued with this campaign on a continual basis in order to obtain the ideal of a Volkstaat or obtain recognition therefore within the constitutional negotiation process."

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, can I just interrupt you once again? With regards to the identification of targets, can you just tell the Committee who was the person who was tasked with the identifying of targets?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, it was myself, I decided which targets to choose.

MR LOUBSCHER: And in the cell, the people who acted with you was Mr Botes and van der Watt?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: And except for the fact that Mr Botes was not always there, in certain exceptions he was not there?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Please continue:

&#9;"I know nothing of any people who were injured during the committing of these offences. The charge sheet's annexures contain several names of people who would have been the legitimate owners of the property which was deliberately damaged and people who we allegedly tried to kill. 

&#9;I read in the paper that two people were injured because of the placing of explosive device in a street in Wesselbron's black township during the night, as described in charge number 3. It must be two of the people which was mentioned under column 4 on page 80 of the documents which serves in front of the Amnesty Committee.

&#9;Our actions were only aimed at that obtaining of political goals and that is the recognition of the Volkstaat's ideal and in strengthening the Volksfront's leader's hands during the negotiations, by making it quite clear that the whites would not accept it if they were not considered and treated reasonably within the negotiations. No other motive ever came into the picture. We also did not gain financially or in any other way from these acts."

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, can you tell the Committee, did you ever foresee the possibility that people might be injured or even killed because of the placing of explosive devices?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, Chairperson, I did. And because I was aware of that fact ,before we executed any operation we always had a prayer and we asked that no-one should be killed or injured.

MR LOUBSCHER: Was it ever you or your groups, that's Botes and van der Watt's intention to kill anyone?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, right from the start it was not the case.

MR LOUBSCHER: And despite the fact - except for the fact that you prayed, did you take any other steps in order to minimise the chance that someone else might be killed or injured?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, there were several things we did.

The first of that would be to have the explosions take place late at night, usually after 10 o'clock and in certain cases even later. There was a great possibility that most of the people would have slept at that time. The time of detonation, if we wanted to kill someone, would have taken place during the daytime but we did it in the night or late at night. 

&#9;The explosives were never sealed in a sealed container, and I'm not an explosive expert but most of the power left this thing from the top, which would have caused greater damage and also maybe possible loss of life if we did it otherwise. 

&#9;Also, we placed the bombs in the townships in such places that if it was at night there could have been a possibility that someone might have been able to see them and maybe cause alarm, if they did in fact see it.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, then to conclude, any of these acts for which you're asking amnesty, were they ever committed because of your personal malice or anger at any of the owners of the property that was damaged or directed at any of the people who might have been injured?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, not in one of the cases. Especially in the case of the black townships we did not know who were the people in whose vicinity we placed the bombs. It was not aimed at individuals at all.

MR LOUBSCHER: Then one further aspect. In the bundle which serves in front of the Committee - Mr Chairman, I refer to page 22 of the bundle of the Committee, it would seem that it's the second amnesty application which is an affidavit or sworn to about six months after your first application.

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Was it at any time your intention that this application should replace your first one?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No. If I'm correct, I made a call to General Viljoen at one point in that he tried to move the cutoff date of amnesty applications and then they invited us to come and thank them personally for that as a sign of appreciation. If I remember correctly he wanted to submit an overhead application to the Amnesty Committee. If I remember correctly he was willing to act on behalf of certain people. And there we signed documents at one point which was filled in by the Volksfront. 

MR LOUBSCHER: They typed part of this document, was that all completed by the Volksfront officials?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: And it was handed over to you and all you did was sign it and fill in the written part?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, your original application appears on page 8, that's 8 to 21 in the bundle, do you confirm the correctness of the content thereof?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, I do, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Loubscher. Mr Taka, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TAKA: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Labuschagne, your activities were apparently aimed at the Nationalist Party Government and supporters of the African National Congress, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: Now let us take the incident at Wesselsbron, the township in Wesselsbron. The place where you placed the bomb, was it an area occupied by supporters of the African National Congress?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, I cannot say because like I've said before we did not know who was living in the immediate vicinity of where we placed the bombs.

MR TAKA: In other words it didn't matter whether or not they belonged to the ANC?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, why we did that was because at that stage every black township would have had an ANC office, maybe I'm wrong but I believe it's true, and the explosions were directed at, it would have created a psychosis of fear in the people and these people probably would have went to the ANC offices the next day. I don't know if it actually happened, but it would have reached the leaders, and that was the sort of pressure we wanted to place on them with regard to the negotiations because I'm sure questions would have been asked by the people in the townships: "Who's doing this and why are they doing this"?

MR TAKA: You see I have a problem here because your main target was the ANC. Now in the black communities there are members of the IFP, there are members of AZAPO, there are members of other political parties. Now how do you determine who are members of the ANC, supporters of the ANC who are your main targets?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, yes, we couldn't do it in another way at that stage because the governing party of day - most of the explosions were directed at the government of the day and at that stage the ANC had nothing which we could directly attack. In other words they were not in control of the country and we had to do something to involve the ANC so that they could then talk to the National Party and in order for us to obtain the Volkstaat but it was not directly at the individuals in that society as such. 

MR TAKA: Will I be correct therefore to say you assumed that every black person in the black townships is necessarily a member or supporter of the ANC?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, but we wanted propaganda at that stage in order to give power of negotiation to our leaders and that is why we did it as such.

MR TAKA: Did you in your operations at any stage place any explosive devices in the residential areas of the supporters of the National Party Government?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, Chairperson, it was done. If you look at the ANC head offices in Bothaville, I cannot give you the exact distance but a few metres away from that office you would finds flats where white people resided and they were actually there when the bomb exploded. So the white areas were involved.

MR TAKA: But are there any instances that you can refer to where you specifically said: "We are now planting these explosives in a residential area of the supporters of the National Party Government, like you did in a residential area of the supporters of the ANC?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, therefore we could have used other targets like railway lines and power lines which one can say they belonged to the government of the day at that time which was the National Party.

MR TAKA: So in this particular instance your target was mainly black people because this did not happen in white areas?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, that was not the intention. The ANC office on Bothaville is in the middle of town. And if you look at the amnesty application you'd find that this ran into three phases. When we started there were explosions in the black townships, shortly thereafter and even in that time, it was shifted away from black areas to the railway lines specifically in order to minimise the risk of fatal accidents and also the injuries of people.

&#9;Whilst we were busy with the railway lines and at the end of that time we started moving away from the railway lines specifically because we were also scared of that specific danger, and we went to the power lines of Eskom and we started blowing them up.

MR SIBANYONI: But Mr Labuschagne, if I understand Mr Taka's question very well, he wants to know where there is any instance where you only targeted a residential area occupied by supporters of the National Party? Was there any such instance or not?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as far as the ANC offices are concerned in Bothaville, 10/20 metres from those offices there could have been National Party members who were unknown to me.

MR SIBANYONI: But there your main target was the ANC office in Bothaville. He wants to know strictly about residential areas where National Party supporters are staying.

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: You never had such an instance?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Taka.

MR TAKA: You have clarified that. Why is it that you did not target National Party supporters, if I may just ask? Was there any specific reason why residential areas belonging to National Party supporters were excluded from your operations?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, it was not necessary to do that because the whole country was full of railway lines and the Eskom power lines were sufficient, so we did not deem it necessary to act against people in residential areas if it was not necessary to create propaganda. And at that point the power lines and the railway lines were sufficient as far as that was concerned.

MR TAKA: You say that you had express instructions not to kill and not to injure people, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That's completely correct, yes.

MR TAKA: Now coming back to Moyakeng(?) again. You placed a bomb in a street a few metres from residential houses, did you not foresee that people could be injured as a result of the explosion?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is so, people could have been injured or even killed but we had to do something to get the attention of the government of the day and the ANC, in order for them to negotiate about a Volkstaat for us but they were very arrogant about that and they wouldn't give us a chance to talk about this.

MR TAKA: In fact in Moyakeng two people were actually injured, one quite seriously, you are aware of that?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, in a newspaper cutting which I read it was written that two people were lightly injured. Unfortunately I don't have it with me but that's they way I understood it.

MR TAKA: For your information, if I may explain to you, one of the people who was injured is Mr Bayo, Maria Bayo ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just spell that name please, Mr Taka.

MR TAKA: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just spell that name please.

MR TAKA: That is Mrs Maria Bayo: B-A-Y-0. 

&#9;Now she sustained a deep laceration on her head and as a result of that incident today even she suffers constant and continuous bouts of headaches so that she is virtually living on pain killers. Were you aware of this?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, I wasn't aware of that.

MR TAKA: Do you agree with me that the fact that she was injured for example, is not in line with the instructions you received because your express instructions was to ensure that people are not killed, people are not maimed, people are not injured. So this particular incident was in gross violation of your express instructions, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as soon as one starts playing with explosives, there is no way one can say before the time that people are or are not going to be injured and therefore we did it with our belief and we prayed beforehand that it shouldn't happen. If you look at the total amount of charges which are laid up against us out of all the things that happened then it's only grace that not more people died or got injured.

MR TAKA: So you were aware all the time that if you play with explosives, there's no question of people not being injured or killed, notwithstanding the fact that your instruction was to ensure that this does not happen?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, we had to prove our point and this point was to get the government of the day and the ANC talking about a Volkstaat. And if we did it in any other way there wouldn't have been any results because they wouldn't have then deemed it necessary to listen to us and our leaders.

MR TAKA: You see, Mr Labuschagne, my worry is that you've just told this Committee that when you play with explosives there is no question of people not being injured or even killed. You even go to the extent of saying it is by the grace of God that no more people were injured or killed in the process. So this is now in contradiction with your express instructions from your commander. You were told to ensure that nobody is injured, nobody is killed but you play with a device which you know very well that is going to kill and it is going to injure. Your comment?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as I've said before, there is no way, not even the person who gives the instruction can ensure that this might or might not happen. 

&#9;If we wanted to commit murder, which was not our purpose right from the start, then there were a few things we could have done. We could have shot individuals or murdered them. We could have attacked taxi ranks during daytime, by means of bombs. We could have attacked black business centres during daytime or whilst there were people there. Also public meetings, for example sports stadiums, gatherings, meetings, and several other things. We could have attacked these things. We didn't do it because we are not murderers and we didn't want to be murderers either.

&#9;As I've said, the times we chose to do these things seemed to me from the time that we placed the bombs there within the black townships, that there would have been very little movement, it was late at night and people would probably have been sleeping. So in order to attain our goals we had no other choice but to do this, but the exception of injuries or the exclusion of death and injury, we could not remove that possibility.

MR TAKA: Still on that point. In Viljoenskroon, that is count number 6, where exactly did you place the explosive device?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, that specific evening I drove the vehicle so I was present in the vehicle but me myself, I did not place the bomb next to the house. It is one of the other applicants who can answer that.

CHAIRPERSON: But did you see where the bomb was placed or not?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, I drove the vehicle and one of us always remained behind in the vehicle.

MR TAKA: Now Mr Labuschagne, my instructions are that that explosive device was placed right next to the shack, the corrugated iron shack of the victim, Mr Ramorakane, immediately next to that shack, almost against the shack. Your comment?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: I can speak of other incidents when I was present, we always placed these devices close to the houses.

MR TAKA: And I'm also informed according to my instructions, that when that device exploded it caused extensive damage but it also broke two legs of one of the victims who is here today in this hall. He sustained two fractures of both legs as a result of that explosion and that victim is Mr Semelo from Viljoenskroon: S-E-M-E-L-O.

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I carry no knowledge of that. It was not mentioned in any of the papers I read at that time.

MR TAKA: But if my instructions are correct, do you agree with me that it was placed in such a manner that it could cause even death under the circumstances because it was so close to where the people were actually sleeping? It was not just a bomb in the street you know or a bomb on a "spoorlyn", it was specifically placed right next to the wall of the shack.

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, any bomb, it doesn't matter where you place it, whether it be in a vehicle or next a place or next to a railway line, as I've explained before the possibility remains that you could never be sure that no-one would get injured. So whether you place it 10 metres away or whether you place it right next to the shack, the shrapnel and the damage is caused in a much wider radius, not necessarily where it's been placed.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think the point that Mr Taka is getting at is that the fact that it was placed right next to the wall of the shack probably changed the possibility of injury to the probability of injury, it made it far more likely. Like if I go and put a bomb in the middle of the audience here I'm definitely going to injure somebody. If I put outside the wall 20 metres from the building, there's a possibility, if I put it right next to the window there's a probability. I think what he's saying is the fact that it was placed right next to the wall, it wasn't just a question of bad luck that somebody got injured, any reasonable person would regard it as being a probable consequence of the placement. Is that what you're saying?

MR TAKA: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You know in other words, why wasn't the bomb placed 30 metres from the wall, why next to it?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, like I've said before I was not present myself, I did not actually go and place the bomb myself. But what I also want to say is that the shrapnel, it doesn't matter the distance, it was probably the explosive power which damaged the house, but in terms of death it does not matter where you place the bomb or when it comes to injuring or killing someone.

MR TAKA: And I'm told that that very explosion also has caused almost permanent deafness to the wife of the victim, Ramorakane, next to whose shack this bomb was placed. Are you aware of that?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, I'm not aware of it.

MR TAKA: Now Mr Labuschagne, you said that you are very sorry about these events that took place, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: Did you ever make any attempts to meet some of the victims of your deeds, to say to them: "I am sorry"?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I think that is why we are here today because we could not approach these people ourselves and that is why we are here today, to tell these people we are sorry, it was not aimed at you personally, it was a propaganda campaign and we wanted to give power to our political negotiators. So we are sorry for the people, we are sorry for what happened but at that stage we had to do it to place pressure on the government of the day to recognise the ideal for a Volkstaat.

MR TAKA: But it's about five years now since some of those incidents took place and some of the victims don't stay very far from you you know, Wesselsbron, Bothaville, they are in the same vicinity. Are you still saying that it was not possible to meet even one of them just to say: "I'm sorry"?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, as I've said previously we are here today to tell these people that we are sorry. We shall meet them afterwards, I have no problem with that. We did not want anybody to be hurt or killed in this process. The fact that we did not make any contact with them is difficult, where does one go to find these people and we do not know what their reaction would be if we went straight to them. So I have no problem and I think that is why we are here today, to ask for forgiveness.

MR TAKA: You say you have no problem meeting these people?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No.

MR TAKA: Okay. Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Taka. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir, just one or two.

&#9;Mr Labuschagne, as I get your explanation it looks like the ANC and the National Party Government were both your enemies during those days when you had to wage these attacks, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That's correct, Chairperson, and that was because they negotiated in Kempton Park and they had no reaction to the so-called Afrikaners at that stage who wanted to negotiate for a Volkstaat, they did not make it any easier for them.

MR MAPOMA: Now Sir, what I want to get is your explanation on this. It looks like, Sir, during your attacks to these targets if there had to be a possibility of the death of someone, that had to be a black person and from the consequences that has been the case. Why was it like that?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, it was not so. I speak under correction, maybe you would know better with all the documents in your possession, but there were more attacks on railway lines and according to my knowledge, many trains were derailed. And ten to one most of those train drivers and possibly other people who were on those trains could have been white people, specifically the drivers of these trains. So it was not just aimed against the blacks, and that is what I stated initially. &#9;We did not concern ourselves with explosions in those black townships for long because the possibility was greater when we continued with these attacks, that somebody would be injured or killed and that is why we moved away to the railway lines and later to the power lines.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, I've no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Loubscher, do you have any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER: Just two questions, Sir.

&#9;Mr Labuschagne, were you at any stage before today aware of the identity of any of the victims, any of the persons who were injured?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: And with regards lastly to the times when these devices were detonated and the choice of targets, do you accept full responsibility thereof?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Yes, I do, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: No, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: I don't have any questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Labuschagne, did you belong to any specific - did your cell have a name or were you part of the "Ystergarde Orde van die Dood" or, anything like that? What division of the AWB did you come under?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, I was just a member of the "Wen Kommando" of the AWB and not of the "Ystergarde" or the other groupings affiliated to the AWB and we also did not have a name for our cell.

CHAIRPERSON: The explosives that you used, were they homemade or were they of the military type?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, initially we received explosives from the mines and at some stage we received instructions to manufacture explosives from fertilizer which we used later.

CHAIRPERSON: You've mentioned that the objective of this campaign that you've described of explosions, was directed towards the, to have an influence on the negotiations that were taking place in the country at that time, is that correct?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did the actual election play any role in the campaign, the April the 27th, was your campaign directed towards the actual polling day at all, to disrupt that, to cause chaos, to put off the elections?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson, our purpose was that we had to negotiate with the National Party and the ANC before the elections in order to have a definite answer before the election because we were afraid that if it did not happen there were would be a great probability that when the ANC was in power they would tell us later that they are not interested at all to negotiate. And it did happen and Mr Mandela or, it did not happen and Mr Mandela appointed a Volkstaat Committee which is still being negotiated.

CHAIRPERSON: At that stage, were you a member of the AWB on a fulltime basis? Was that your employment as such?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Loubscher, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put?

MR LOUBSCHER: Just a single question, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Labuschagne, this campaign which you launched, was this for the furtherance of the AWB or was it for the Volksfront?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Mr Chairperson, the Volksfront was established at some stage, I cannot recall the date, and there were a whole lot of Afrikaner organisation which sided with the Volksfront and this caused that it seemed as if the Volksfront would negotiate our political objective between the National Party and the ANC, so it was for the Volksfront at that stage which rose out as the stronger negotiating party.

CHAIRPERSON: The Volksfront was an umbrella body under which a number of other organisations belonged to really?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Labuschagne, did I understand you correctly that your links with the AWB were broken, you resigned from the AWB during the course of this campaign?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: That is correct, Chairperson. As it was mentioned at a stage in the documents, we did not want to reconcile ourselves with some of the methods that the AWB used to assault people for example, and to murder them and all the things that were associated with that. And it would seem from their actions as was evident later in Mafikeng, their inability to handle the situation properly.

MR LOUBSCHER: And after you broke all links with the AWB, on whose behalf did you continue with the campaign?

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson, it was continued under the banners of the Volksfront ...(end of tape)

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

MR TAKA: I have no further questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Labuschagne, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

MR LABUSCHAGNE: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: This is the evidence I wish to adduce on behalf of Mr Labuschagne. 

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;19TH NOVEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES

APPLICATION NO: AM 3672/96

DAY :&#9;1

-------------------------------------------------------------------------- MR LOUBSCHER: I then would like with your permission to call Mr Botes.

JOHANNES JACOBUS ROOS BOTES: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher?

EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Botes, you have completed an application for amnesty and signed it on the 7th of December 1996 and these appear on page 26 to 38 of the Amnesty Committee's bundle.

MR BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: You have also - Mr Chairman, may we number this application.

CHAIRPERSON: As Exhibit B?

MR LOUBSCHER: Exhibit B, the affidavit Exhibit B, yes.

&#9;Mr Botes, you prepared an affidavit, is that correct?

MR BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: You have heard the testimony or the evidence of Mr Labuschagne with regards to what was mentioned here?

MR BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Do you confirm the content there?

MR BOTES: Yes, and I do.

MR LOUBSCHER: And can you tell the Committee who was the person who determined the targets that you attacked?

MR BOTES: Sir, we received our instructions from Mr Labuschagne and he told us where to go and where we had to place the devices, and this is how it happened.

MR LOUBSCHER: And who determined on which times and on which days you had to go?

MR BOTES: We also received these instructions from Mr Labuschagne.

MR LOUBSCHER: On page 10, on the bottom of page 10 of your affidavit as well as in your amnesty application you mentioned that you were not involved with offences with regards to charges 20, 21 - excuse me, there's a correction, it is charge 20, excuse me, charge 21, not 20.

CHAIRPERSON: So that 20 must be deleted?

MR LOUBSCHER: 20 should be deleted.

CHAIRPERSON: It starts at 21?

MR LOUBSCHER: It starts at 21, Chairperson.

&#9;You were not involved with 21, 38, 40 and 41.

MR BOTES: That's correct. 

MR LOUBSCHER: I think you had gone fishing in South West at that time?

MR BOTES: That's correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Otherwise do you confirm the contents of this affidavit?

MR BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: At any stage did you have any knowledge of any persons who were injured through your actions?

MR BOTES: No, only these that Neels said he read in the papers.

MR LOUBSCHER: Who is Neels?

MR BOTES: Mr Labuschagne.

MR LOUBSCHER: And what did he tell you at that stage?

MR BOTES: He said that he saw in the papers that at Wesselbron somebody was injured. That is all that I know of anybody.

MR LOUBSCHER: Now your participation in these actions of this group, was it because of personal malice to anybody?

MR BOTES: No.

MR LOUBSCHER: Did you gain anything personally from this?

MR BOTES: Not at all.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Botes, you also signed a second amnesty application?

MR BOTES: That's correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: This is the one that appears on page 39 to 42 of the bundle.

MR BOTES: That is correct, I just went and signed it.

MR LOUBSCHER: On whose request?

MR BOTES: On Mr Labuschagne's request, which was a request from General Viljoen, as I understand it.

MR LOUBSCHER: And the only things that you filled in in this whole application form is the written parts on page 39?

MR BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: And then your signature on page 42?

MR BOTES: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Was this to replace the original application?

MR BOTES: No.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Botes, you heard that Mr Labuschagne was asked about a bomb which exploded in Viljoenskroon, charge number 6, in Viljoenskroon black township?

MR BOTES: That's correct, we received the instruction from him.

MR LOUBSCHER: Who placed that bomb?

MR BOTES: Mr van der Watt and myself placed the bomb. Mr Labuschagne dropped us off on the tar road and then one moves across a field, and it was dark and it was raining. When we arrived at the first houses we just placed the bomb. I cannot recall what the distances were but it was very dark.

MR LOUBSCHER: The suggestion was that the injured person alleges that the bomb was placed right next to the house. I don't know how he established this but that the bomb was placed right next to the house, is that true?

MR BOTES: I do not believe that it was right next to the house, it could have been close to the house. I don't think the bomb, the bomb did not touch anything. There was a wire fence, I recall that there was a fence where we placed it.

MR LOUBSCHER: You did not know how far this wire fence was from the house?

MR BOTES: Not at all, it was very dark and it rained as well.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Botes, your participation in this campaign, was this for any other motive other than to, with regards to the position of negotiations for a Volkstaat?

MR BOTES: No.

MR LOUBSCHER: To strengthen this position, not for any other purpose?

MR BOTES: No, it was for the Volkstaat.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Loubscher. Mr Taka, do you have any questions for the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TAKA: Thank you, I have a question for this witness.

&#9;Mr Botes, the instructions you and Mr van der Watt received, were they general instructions to cause chaos and mayhem or were you given specific instructions to go an place a bomb for example, at a specific place? Or the question of where you placed the bomb and what you do, was it left to your discretion?

MR BOTES: No, the instruction was to create chaos. We stopped along the road and we just placed the thing and that was it.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you now talking specifically about count 6, the Viljoenskroon bomb?

MR BOTES: Viljoenskroon.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your question directed specifically to that count or was it a general question relating to all the incidents?

MR TAKA: The question was a general question.

CHAIRPERSON: I think then put it again on a general - I think you've answered the question in relation to the Viljoenskroon count but Mr Taka has said generally speaking, the instructions that you received, I take it those are the instructions from Mr Labuschagne, did you receive specific instructions in respect of each incident or were the instructions general just to cause as much chaos and mayhem by the resultant explosion from wherever the bomb was?

MR BOTES: Yes, it was to cause chaos. Specific things were not mentioned, it was just to cause chaos and to receive publicity for the people who were higher up, the leaders, to make their hands stronger in the negotiations for those of us who wanted a Volkstaat.

MR TAKA: But that general mandate or that general instruction also included the condition that no-one is killed and no-one is injured whatever you do, is that correct?

MR BOTES: That's correct.

MR TAKA: So that if you wilfully and intentionally, or even if you through gross negligence caused death and/or injury, bodily injury, that would be your own personal responsibility, not the responsibility of the organisation, is that correct?

MR BOTES: I don't know how it would have happened in such a case.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Taka is saying is, you said that your instruction included a directive, if I may call it that, not to cause death or injury, now what Mr Taka is saying is, if you placed a bomb and that bomb actually caused injury or death, then would that injury or death be your personal responsibility and not that of the organisation for which you were operating at the time, namely the AWB and/or the Volksfront?

MR BOTES: Can I just ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In other words in another way, because of that instruction - if the instruction came from the movement, the Volksfront or the AWB not to injure and you did injure, then the AWB or Volksfront couldn't be seen to be held liable for such injury or death, only you and the persons who placed the bomb? That is what he is asking.

MR BOTES: I don't know, I received my instruction directly from Mr Labuschagne. He would probably would have had to take responsibility for it.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what rank did you hold in the AWB?

MR BOTES: I didn't have any rank.

MR TAKA: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;You were present when the bomb was placed in Viljoenskroon, is that correct?

MR BOTES: That's correct.

MR TAKA: And you were also present when the bomb was placed in Wesselsbron?

MR BOTES: That's correct.

MR TAKA: Now in both instances you decided where the bomb is going to be placed and how it is going to be placed, is that correct? That was your own decision?

MR BOTES: No, in Wesselsbron we drove with the vehicle and just left it in the street and we just continued. In Viljoenskroon we stopped alongside the road, we got off, we placed it and we went back to the vehicle. In Viljoenskroon I would say it was maybe my decision to put it down when we arrived at the houses, but in Wesselsbron we just stopped, it was not my decision.

MR TAKA: So in Wesselsbron you did not yourself place the bomb where it exploded?

MR BOTES: No, I was in the vehicle, all three of us. Myself, Labuschagne and Mr van der Watt were in the vehicle. I can't remember who placed the bomb on the ground and then we drove on.

MR TAKA: Now when you placed the bomb in Viljoenskroon, did you know that the owner of the shack where you placed the bomb was not even an ANC supporter, he was a policeman and still is a policeman?

MR BOTES: No, I carried no knowledge of who lived there in any of those shacks around there.

MR TAKA: But I thought that your target was supporters of the ANC and the Nationalist Party Government?

MR BOTES: The instruction I received was just to go and place the bomb and to go back.

MR TAKA: And in Wesselsbron six house were affected by the explosion and the inhabitants of those houses, which is in one of the poorer areas of Wesselsbron, say that they did not belong to any political party. let alone the African National Congress at the time of the explosion of this bomb.

MR BOTES: I'm very sorry for those people but it was not aimed at specific people the way I understood it, it was only about creating chaos and to gain propaganda to strengthen the hands of the leaders, that was all. It was never aimed at any specific individuals, it doesn't matter which organisation they belonged to. It was only in order to gain publicity.

MR TAKA: My instructions also are that that explosion in Wesselsbron equally destroyed a four-roomed house belonging to a widow who since then has been unable to build another house and is living in a shack as a result, with six minor children. Your comment?

MR BOTES: I am very sorry for her. This is difficult. When we started with the war if I can call it that, we did not always think that there would be such horrible consequences and we did not know we're going to feel the way we feel today, the pain. 

MR TAKA: Would you concede today that in your operations more often than not you may have exceeded the mandate of your organisation or organisations or exceeded the instructions that were given to you?

MR BOTES: I do not understand the question very well.

MR TAKA: Would you concede today that it could have happened that you in the execution of your mandate maybe went too far?

MR BOTES: I did as I received the instructions to do it. Is that the answer you are looking for? Let me put it this way, if today I had to receive similar instructions I would not follow them, I wouldn't even listen to them.

MR TAKA: Mr Botes, you are from Bultfontein, the district Bultfontein?

MR BOTES: That is correct.

MR TAKA: Have you made any attempts to show your genuine remorse by trying to meet some of the victims of your deadly acts?

MR BOTES: No, as far as I knew there were no severe injuries. I've known about the one of Mr Labuschagne in the paper. It said that it was a very light injury to the knee.

MR TAKA: You are making an application for amnesty, is it out of genuine remorse or is it perhaps an attempt to avoid the consequences of your actions?

CHAIRPERSON: I know it's not a requirement - the question of remorse is not a requirement. I don't know if you don't want your client to answer it. I don't have a problem with the question itself, although the showing of remorse is not a criteria for the granting or refusal of amnesty.

MR TAKA: Mr Chairman, I have no further questions for this witness.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Loubscher?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER: Just for the sake of clarity, Mr Chairperson, thank you very much.

&#9;Mr Botes, you were a member of which organisations when you started this campaign? Were you still a member of the AWB and the Volksfront then?

MR BOTES: Yes. I did not give a written resignation but I was no longer paying membership fees and as far as I was concerned I was not a member of the AWB.

MR LOUBSCHER: And the Volksfront?

MR BOTES: Yes, I was a member.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Just on that, just to try to erase my own ignorance. Could individuals belong to the Volksfront or was it just a body of organisations?

MR LOUBSCHER: No, individuals could belong to it as well.

CHAIRPERSON: So it was organisations and their members or if an individual didn't belong to any other organisation he could as Piet Pompies go and join?

MR LOUBSCHER: Ja.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware that Mr Labuschagne terminated his membership with the AWB during January 1994?

MR BOTES: Yes, I did learn that, I was aware of it.

CHAIRPERSON: And after that occurred, did you continue in the campaign still under the direction of Mr Labuschagne?

MR BOTES: Yes, I joined together - I joined the Volksfront together with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make your own explosives? Your bombs, did you make them yourself, you, Mr van der Watt and Mr Labuschagne or were you supplied with the bombs from some other source?

MR BOTES: We made it ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Mr Loubscher?

MR LOUBSCHER: None, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Taka?

MR TAKA: Nothing, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: None, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Would this be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment? Can we take it for say just an half an hour or so, would that be convenient or as soon thereafter as possible and start at quarter to two again?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir, that would be convenient.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll now adjourn for lunch and we'll start at a quarter to two or shortly thereafter, as soon as we're ready.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE: &#9;19TH NOVEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;DANIEL WILHELM VAN DER WATT

APPLICATION NO: AM 3673/96

HELD AT:&#9;WELKOM

DAY : &#9;1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Just before the lunch adjournment we concluded the evidence of Mr Botes. Mr Loubscher?

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I then now call Mr van der Watt.

DANIEL WILHELM VAN DER WATT: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher?

EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr van der Watt, during the second half of 1993 you were a member of the AWB?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Did you have any rank?

MR VAN DER WATT: No rank at all, no.

MR LOUBSCHER: Were you also a member of the Volksfront?

MR VAN DER WATT: Yes.

MR LOUBSCHER: You listened to the evidence of Mr Labuschagne about how he gave you and Mr Botes instructions and how you went with him to several different places and you placed explosive devices there which exploded.

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Do you confirm his evidence in this regard?

MR VAN DER WATT: Yes.

MR LOUBSCHER: You also heard what he said about the reasons why you acted the way you did?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Do you confirm that?

MR VAN DER WATT: Yes, I do.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr van der Watt, you submitted an application for amnesty which is signed on the 7th of December 1995, and you will find it on page 43 up to 55 of the bundle.

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Maybe just to make sure we know everything, you and Labuschagne and Botes were arrested for all the acts which you committed and you were prosecuted?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: And the charge sheet is relevant to all the incidents for which you ask for amnesty? It's on page 63 up 84 of the bundle.

MR VAN DER WATT: That's correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Now on page 56 up to page 59 there is another amnesty application by you and it was signed in May 1997.

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct, yes.

MR LOUBSCHER: Your first one was handed in in December 1996, so how did it come about that this amnesty application was signed?

MR VAN DER WATT: Labuschagne brought it to us and told us to sign it and that it's coming from General Viljoen.

MR LOUBSCHER: Did you then fill in the handwritten parts in that document and also sign it?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Was it at any time your intention that this document would replace your first amnesty application?

MR VAN DER WATT: No.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr van der Watt, can I please take you to, remind you of charge number 6. You will remember that this is the explosive device which was placed at the black township of Viljoenskroon. Were you personally involved in the placing of the device?

MR VAN DER WATT: Yes.

MR LOUBSCHER: Was anyone else involved?

MR VAN DER WATT: Me and Mr Botes were together.

MR LOUBSCHER: Now the suggestion was made that this explosive device was deliberately placed right next to the wall of a corrugated iron shack, what is your comment on that?

MR VAN DER WATT: Chairperson, it was very dark, it rained a lot, we didn't look where we placed it. There was also a fence there. We only placed it and we went back.

MR LOUBSCHER: Can you say today how close you placed that explosive device to that hut?

MR VAN DER WATT: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Loubscher.

&#9;Did you climb through the fence before you placed it?

MR VAN DER WATT: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Where about in relation to the fence did you place it, the side that you came from or on the other side of the fence, can you remember?

MR VAN DER WATT: It was on the other side of the fence.

DR TSOTSI: Did you have to cross the fence before putting the device in place or did you do it from outside the fence?

MR VAN DER WATT: I leaned over the fence and I placed the bomb, I did it from the other side.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr van der Watt, who in the group of three of you decided when and where explosive devices would be placed?

MR VAN DER WATT: We got all our instructions from Labuschagne.

MR LOUBSCHER: Was there ever at any stage any other motive involved with the placing of these devices, other than the furthering of a Volkstaat idea, on behalf of the Volksfront?

MR VAN DER WATT: No.

MR LOUBSCHER: Did you ever financially gain anything from the placing of these devices?

MR VAN DER WATT: No, not at all.

MR LOUBSCHER: Did you place any of these devices because of personal malice or anger?

MR VAN DER WATT: No, I did not.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr van der Watt, you also prepared an affidavit?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Chairman, may we mark this as C?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Labuschagne, we will mark it as Exhibit C.

MR LOUBSCHER: Do you confirm the contents of your affidavit as correct?

MR VAN DER WATT: Yes, I do.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Taka, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TAKA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have.

&#9;Mr van der Watt, let's go back to the placing of the bomb in Viljoenskroon. You say that you placed the bomb over the fence? In other words, if I understand you correctly your were on the roadside and you put it over the fence into the premises of that corrugated iron shack, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct.

MR TAKA: You were under express instructions to avoid injury, bodily injury and death, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct, yes.

MR TAKA: Now by placing the bomb over the fence you were placing it closer to the fence, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WATT: Chairperson, I couldn't see properly, it was very dark. I don't know how far it was from the shack.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think it's fairly obvious - well unless, if the fence was the fence around the shack, if you place it over, it must have been closer to the shack than the side of the fence that you were standing on. Do you know that?

MR VAN DER WATT: I do not know what the exact distance was between the shack and the fence.

CHAIRPERSON: But you came through veld to get where you were, or did you have to pass other shacks to get to where you were where you placed the bomb?

MR VAN DER WATT: Chairperson, it was on the outside of the township, it was not inside the township itself.

MR TAKA: Thank you.

&#9;This fence, what did it separate, was it surrounding a particular shack or a group of shacks? What exactly was between - what was the fence separating?

MR VAN DER WATT: Chairperson, it was very dark. It looked to me as if the fence went around all the huts, not only one.

MR TAKA: But would it be correct to say that it was separating for example the road and the huts or the shacks?

MR VAN DER WATT: That's correct, yes.

MR TAKA: So that if you go beyond the shack beyond the fence from the road's side - if you were beyond the fence itself from the road's side, you were moving closer to a shack or a hut?

MR VAN DER WATT: It was very dark, I really couldn't see well.

CHAIRPERSON: But it wasn't your intention was it, to place the bomb in the middle of open veld not close to any abode, any residence, any shack? Did you know there were shacks there?

MR VAN DER WATT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you know more or less where the shacks were? Did you know that there were shacks on the other side of the fence?

MR VAN DER WATT: Yes, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: So if you knew that there were shacks beyond the fence, then you knew that beyond the fence you were moving closer to the shacks? Because you knew that there were shacks beyond this fence, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WATT: Chairperson, we didn't want to climb through the fence. We acted as quick as possible. We placed the bomb and we immediately retreated.

MR TAKA: Why did you not put the bomb this side of the fence and not beyond the fence?

MR VAN DER WATT: If we placed it on our side of the fence it would have been closer to the field, the veld.

MR TAKA: An open veld?

MR VAN DER WATT: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: And what was wrong in the bomb being closer to the veld?

MR VAN DER WATT: If it was in the open field it would have created less propaganda.

MR TAKA: So you put it closer to the shacks so that you could get maximum propaganda, am I right?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: You realise that moving it closer to the shacks increases the risk of injury and even death at the explosion of the bomb?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: And you consciously and deliberately moved away from the veld closer to the shack?

MR VAN DER WATT: It was not deliberate.

MR TAKA: That bomb in Viljoenskroon cost bodily injury to at least three people, Margaret Malinga who has lost her hearing, Steven Semelo and Andries Semelo. Is it not possible that if you had placed the bomb further from the shacks it would have cause less injuries because it was then closer to the veld?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: Were you also involved in the placing of a bomb in the street in Wesselsbron?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: Who decided on the exact location of the bomb in Wesselsbron?

MR VAN DER WATT: We drove into the township, we placed the bomb outside the car in the street. I can't remember who placed the bomb.

MR TAKA: That bomb also caused injury to Maria Bayo and also to a one and a half year old baby, Seipati Mokodutlo. 

CHAIRPERSON: Could you just repeat that name please?

MR TAKA: Mr Chairperson, Seipati and the surname is Mokodutlo: M-O-K-O-D-U-T-L-O.

&#9;Now it injured little Seipati on her left knee and also twisted the patella of her knee, were you aware of that?

MR VAN DER WATT: No, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: But that bomb also caused severe damage to at least six residential areas around the place from where it was located in Wesselsbron, were you aware of that?

MR VAN DER WATT: No, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: Could you foresee that placing such a bomb at such a place could have consequences like that, body injury and damage to property?

MR VAN DER WATT: The bomb could have caused great damage, yes Mr Chairman.

MR TAKA: You did foresee that?

MR VAN DER WATT: No, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: You acted only under strict orders from Labuschagne, is that correct?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: And those orders were amongst other things to avoid injury and death, is that so?

MR VAN DER WATT: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: Now if your actions caused severe injury for example, then they were not part of the order that was given to you, do you agree with me?

MR VAN DER WATT: Yes, Chairperson.

MR TAKA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Taka. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher, do you have any re-examination?

MR LOUBSCHER: I have no re-examination, thank you, Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions?

DR TSOTSI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Watt, you get bombs and bombs. You get some big bombs and you get smaller bombs, how would you describe the bomb that was placed, let's say at Viljoenskroon and the one at Wesselsbron?

MR VAN DER WATT: Chairperson, we never measured the explosives, we never knew how much explosive was actually put in the bomb.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you say that the bomb at Wesselsbron and the bomb at Viljoenskroon were the same size? Did you use the same recipe as it were or was the one much larger than the other?

MR VAN DER WATT: Chairperson, according to the containers, Viljoenskroon's bomb was bigger than that of Wesselsbron. ...(end of tape)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you still a member of the AWB?

MR VAN DER WATT: No, Chairperson, it was that time when Mr Labuschagne joined the Volksfront and I did the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you mean when Mr Labuschagne stopped being a member of the AWB? I was under the impression Mr Labuschagne at one stage was a member of the AWB and the Volksfront at the same time, or don't you know?

MR VAN DER WATT: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher, do you have any questions arising?

MR LOUBSCHER: None, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Taka?

MR TAKA: None, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: None, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr van der Watt, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

MR VAN DER WATT: Thank you, Chairperson.

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;19TH NOVEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;ANDRIES STEFANUS KRIEL

APPLICATION NO: AM 2893/96

HELD AT:&#9;WELKOM

DAY :&#9;1

-----------------------------------------------------------------------MR LOUBSCHER: I next call Mr Kriel, Chairperson.

ANDRIES STEFANUS KRIEL: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher?

EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Kriel, the second half of 1993, were you a member of the AWB?

MR KRIEL: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: What rank did you have?

MR KRIEL: I was a Brigadier.

MR LOUBSCHER: Were you also a member of the Volksfront?

MR KRIEL: Yes, I was a member of the Volksfront and I served there a "sekundie" for the leader of the Volksfront in the Northern Free State.

MR LOUBSCHER: You have handed in an application for amnesty which is on page 1, 2 and 3 of the bundle.

MR KRIEL: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: And then there are two further writings which have been directed to the Amnesty Committee, which appear on page 4, 5 to 7?

MR KRIEL: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Kriel, in your application for amnesty you refer to acts which are described here as terrorist acts, and places you refer to are Pretoria, Krugersdorp and Henneman?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: And the nature of the particulars you refer to quite a few things. You say the storage of explosives, the explosions of certain places and then the incitement of certain people to commit terrorist acts?

MR KRIEL: That's correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: And places which you refer to are the Hill View School, Cosatu House, Verwoerdburg Post Office and the Krugersdorp Post Office?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: This had no relevance to this application?

MR KRIEL: No, Chairperson, I have already appeared for the matters in Pretoria and that has been completed.

MR LOUBSCHER: Has your application been approved?

MR KRIEL: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: And the Krugersdorp incidents?

MR KRIEL: Yes.

MR LOUBSCHER: So whatever is left in the application are the acts for which Messrs Labuschagne, Botes and van der Watt have been charged?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: And these are the acts which are contained in the charge sheet as it appears on page 63 to 84 in the bundle?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So Mr Kriel, do I understand you, you are applying for amnesty in respect of each and every one of those charges?

MR KRIEL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Possession of firearms and ammunition, all these charges?

MR KRIEL: As far as I know there is not a "possession of firearms and ammunition" involved but as commander I am responsible and I ask for amnesty with regards to that, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be on the basis that you knew that the people under you were in possession of illegal or unlicensed weaponry and you not only condoned it but encouraged it?

MR KRIEL: Yes, Chairperson, I gave them the instructions to commit acts of terror which includes everything, whether it be death or the possession of explosives or whatever it may be.

MR LOUBSCHER: You were indeed arrested and charged with the other three applicants in this matter?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Now Mr Labuschagne has said that you gave him an instruction at some point in time, September or October of 1993. Let us get to the contents of that instruction to Mr Labuschagne. Can you please tell the Committee where the idea of this instruction came from, was it your own plan?

MR KRIEL: No, Chairperson, at that stage the Afrikaner Volksfront was established, it was organised in certain regions. In Welkom I resorted under the Northern Free State region of the Afrikaner Volksfront. At the same time I was also member and commander of the AWB in this area. The Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging was a party to the Afrikaner Volksfront. In other words although there were two organisations, the AWB was affiliated to the Afrikaner Volksfront. I would just like to tell you that I received instructions from the Afrikaner Volksfront side.

MR LOUBSCHER: From whom?

MR KRIEL: From the Afrikaner Volksfront side, from Mr Jaco de Villiers the leader of the Volksfront in the Northern Free State, after which I cleared it with the head office of the Afrikaner Volksfront with a Colonel Pretorius who worked there, who confirmed that the acts of terror had to happen.

MR LOUBSCHER: Could you please state what was Mr de Villiers' instructions to you?

MR KRIEL: His instructions were that we had to immediately go over to acts of terror and he also told me that the other groups like the "Boere Krisis Aksie" were already in the country to disrupt the country and we had to start immediately with acts of terror.

MR LOUBSCHER: And what was the objective of these acts of terror, what was the purpose?

MR KRIEL: The purpose of these actions was to focus on the fight for freedom of the Boerevolk and then secondly it was to disrupt the government of the day and to force them to pay attention to it. Thirdly, it was necessary that the ANC who was a strong party at that stage, to get their attention that the Boere want their freedom.

MR LOUBSCHER: And how was this to be accommodated, how would the Volksfront accommodate this?

MR KRIEL: The Afrikaner Volksfront's opinion was that the freedom has to include a reasonably large piece of land where the people could govern themselves. There was a difference between all of us, there was a Boerevolk and an Afrikaner Volk. And I would like to say I am a Boer and not an Afrikaner.

MR LOUBSCHER: What you are describing here now, is this what is termed the Volkstaat idea?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Tell me Mr Kriel, did you discuss these instructions with General Viljoen at any stage, that you received from Mr de Villiers and Kommandant Pretorius?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson, after our arrest or sometime thereafter, Mr Labuschagne and myself travelled to General Viljoen and on two occasions I met with him, once with Mr Labuschagne and the other occasion as well where I told him: "There are lots of people in prison who are being charged, and you gave the instructions, what are you going to do?" He said that we should all apply for amnesty and he would also state so in his application for amnesty. He also mentioned that because of his instructions many people acted whom he did not know personally and they went through the structures, but he gave us the assurance that his application would state this and then he told us to apply for amnesty.

MR LOUBSCHER: The leader of the AWB, Mr Terre'blanche, was he aware of what was happening here and what was his opinion?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson. I knew Mr Terre'blanche very well. We walked a road for many years. A few days before the Volksfront's instruction he came to, I visited him at Ventersdorp and he said the acts of terror must continue and he gave me specific instructions to continue. He said he approved the instructions of the Afrikaner Volksfront.

MR LOUBSCHER: If we could come back to your instructions to Mr Labuschagne. This instruction, the instruction that you received, did you convey it to him?

MR KRIEL: Yes, Mr Labuschagne was my second in command. I evaluated him as a very capable officer and gave him an instruction to establish a cell which he did, and I gave him the instruction to continue with the acts of terror.

MR LOUBSCHER: Did you identify the targets or did you leave it to him to identify his own targets?

MR KRIEL: Mr Chairperson, I left it to his discretion. I told him that he should just do anything, even if you just kick a building over, just do something. I also told him to concentrate on the communication and on the Eskom installations, concentrate thereon but if you don't get there, do what your hand finds to do but just do something. I gave him an open hand to continue with acts of terror.

MR LOUBSCHER: Did you give him an indication in terms of the regulation with which these acts of terror had to take place?

MR KRIEL: Chairperson, I incited him to hit as many targets as possible and to damage as many properties as possible and to act as widely as possible, and I congratulated him when he did so.

MR LOUBSCHER: In general, were you satisfied with the work that the three men did?

MR KRIEL: I was very satisfied, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Kriel, did you ever - from the instructions that you gave Mr Labuschagne and the acts which they committed, did you ever gain personally from this?

MR KRIEL: No, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: This instruction which you conveyed to Mr Labuschagne, was it given because of personal malice or anger towards anybody?

MR KRIEL: No, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: How did it come about that these acts of terror came to an end?

MR KRIEL: We were arrested early in February 1994.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Loubscher. Mr Taka, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TAKA: Yes, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Kriel, you say that these acts came when you were arrested in February 1994, is that correct?

MR KRIEL: That's correct.

MR TAKA: In other words, if you had not been arrested you would have continued with your acts of terror?

MR KRIEL: I would for sure, ja.

MR TAKA: I didn't hear nicely.

CHAIRPERSON: The answer was that he would have continued with the acts of terror if he had not been arrested.

MR TAKA: The charges that appear in the document here, were you also involved in some of them or did you only give instructions to Labuschagne? Were you personally involved for instance, in Wesselsbron, Viljoenskroon and so on?

MR KRIEL: No, I did not accompany them to Viljoenskroon or Wesselsbron.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you accompany them on any of the operations reflected?

MR KRIEL: No, I did not accompany them on any of these operations.

MR TAKA: What were your express instructions to Labuschagne regarding committing acts of terror?

MR KRIEL: My explicit instructions to Mr Labuschagne was that he must continue with acts of terror and I told him that he has to concentrate specifically on the railway trains and on Eskom, but along the road according to his discretion, if he saw any targets then he had to address them according to his discretion.

MR TAKA: Did you place any limitations on his activity?

MR KRIEL: No, Chairperson, I just requested that they concentrate on the trains and on Eskom but furthermore I did not place any limitation on any of their acts.

MR TAKA: Did you also give them expressly the instruction to target black townships of ANC supporters?

MR KRIEL: I gave explicit instructions to attack any other target which they deemed necessary. I did not say black townships in detail but that was included because I told them: "Do whatever your hands find to do, just go and do it." And I wish to say that by implication I did say that they should attack townships because they would have understood it in this way.

MR TAKA: So with regard to black townships you did not expressly say so, it was by implication, if I understand you correctly?

MR KRIEL: Yes, I had no problem that they would place bombs in black communities. If they placed on in Welkom and Ama Xhosa House, I have no problem with it because it's an act of terror which addresses our problem. It was the same as the Church Street bomb, a Boer or some person would walk past, that is an act of terror. I do not want to sit here and colour a nice picture for you, it was terrorism.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt, Mr Taka.

&#9;We've heard from Mr Labuschagne that there was a degree of limitation placed on him in that he had an instruction not to kill or injure, did you in any way place a limitation of that on him?

MR KRIEL: Yes, Chairperson, we did discuss it. Our plan of action was that we would concentrate on transport, trains and these places, that we would not go out, we felt that is was not within our area to go and kill people and shoot people. We agreed to that, but I do not want to sit here today as the Angel of the Light and make as if we were angels. People could have been killed, that is indeed so.

MR TAKA: So if I understand you correctly, your instruction was choose a target, kill if possible, injure if possible, there are acts of terrorism?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Chairperson, the proposition that was put to my client was somewhat unfair, that the instruction was kill if possible.

CHAIRPERSON: Well it was put to him but it was for Mr Kriel to answer it.

MR KRIEL: Chairperson, it doesn't help that I'm sitting here - look, we went, it was a war, there was a war for freedom, people could have died. You know Mr Chairperson, you can ask a question: I did not want to do this or I did not want to do that. You know how it is with these types of hearings and I don't want to commit myself to this. The fact of the matter is we planted bombs, we committed acts of terror and not to sit here today and say we did not want to kill people, it's not entirely true. It is with regard to the truth here, Mr Chairperson. 

&#9;If you would grant me, we requested many detainees and with Doctor Piet Meyer and Doctor - I've forgotten his name now, we tried very hard to work on a programme of reconciliation but I am bitter because the TRC did not participate in this party although the soldiers in prison made their peace but the politicians outside did not make peace because the soldiers are being prosecuted in prison today and politicians like Viljoen sit comfortably in government now and that is my problem. But I do not want to hide behind the, we did these things and it is here and we have to talk about it. &#9;I think very little has been done in terms of reconciliation in this country.

MR TAKA: So it would be wrong if anyone says: "Mr Kriel said we should not injure or kill"?

MR KRIEL: Can you repeat the question please?

MR TAKA: It will not be totally correct if anyone says: "Mr Kriel gave us express instructions not to kill and not to cause bodily injury"?

MR KRIEL: No, Chairperson, I told everybody to go over to acts of terror. I think there were people who killed people according to my instructions, I don't know. I had meetings, I spoke, I gave speeches, I had meetings at houses, I told them: "Continue with acts of terror, go and fight." I don't know how many incidents happened because of what I may have said and because of my instructions and my incitement of these people. I could probably never determine it.

MR TAKA: Mr Kriel, do you feel that the leadership of the organisations to which you belonged have betrayed you in the process? 

MR KRIEL: Can you please repeat, I'm a little deaf.

MR TAKA: Do you feel that leadership of the organisations to which you belonged, have betrayed you in one way or the other and if so, can you perhaps explain to the Committee?

MR KRIEL: Yes, Chairperson. Mr Terre'blanche the leader of the AWB is a coward and I have said so at many Amnesty Committees. If you tell people to go and do things then you are just as guilty as they are. You have to stand your man then and if things go wrong you have to accept responsibility, but Mr Terre'blanche has refused to accept responsibility for any of these actions and I think he's left his people in the lurch. He has distanced himself from people who are in prison and that is why these people cannot get amnesty. You see it would be very easy for me to say but I did not give Mr Labuschagne any instructions and then outside I walk around freely, but it would mean that Mr Labuschagne would not be granted amnesty and that is why I have a problem with the AWB, and it is a serious problem that I have with them. 

&#9;I would like to elaborate there a little bit. You have to know that at that stage when these acts of terror were committed it was against another background. The government who took over, the ANC, came with other concessions like the Council for Volksraad. I believe it was not in de Klerk's time, it was de Klerk said no and he hid himself behind the police and the army. He handled the whole things wrong.

MR TAKA: One last question. What is your comment to the suggestion that the acts of terrorism that you referred to were basically directed at black residential areas where there were ANC supporters and not at white residential areas of the National Party supporters?

MR KRIEL: Chairperson, I personally have also placed bombs for which I was granted amnesty. It did not matter whether it was black or white, we chose the targets. 

&#9;The post offices which we targeted were in traditional white areas where we launched our attacks. It was about acts of terror which had to be noticed. I would like to tell you the building of the ANC which was blown up was the property of a white man who was an ANC member. When I heard that I was very glad and I said: "Yes, this person has betrayed the white people." That was my feeling.

&#9;But I would like to tell you that the National Party, I had the same feeling towards them. If I could find F W de Klerk or Pik Botha then I would have killed them, that is for sure.

MR TAKA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Taka. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, Sir, just a few.

&#9;Mr Kriel, you will recall that in your evidence-in-chief you said Mr Labuschagne would report to you and you would congratulate him for the acts that he did, do you remember that?

MR KRIEL: Yes, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And I take it that those acts for which you congratulated him are the bombings on Wesselsbron and Viljoenstad?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR MAPOMA: And at that time they you were already aware that people got injured as a result of those bombings?

MR KRIEL: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Loubscher, do you have any re-examination?

MR LOUBSCHER: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Kriel, what didn't come out clearly for me is that according to Mr Labuschagne there was a limitation placed insofar as the orders were given, to say as much as possible try to avoid injury or death to people and when he was saying that he was sitting there, I hope you were listening to him. Now was he correct in saying that or the instructions were: do whatever you think is correct in your discretion. Was there any limitation, yes or no?

MR KRIEL: No, there were no limitations.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: When did you cease being a member of the AWB, Mr Kriel?

MR KRIEL: I was finally absconded in December last year, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you assist - did you have various cell, if I can call them that, under your authority or jurisdiction? Because we know that Mr Labuschagne was given the authority to form a cell which he did with Messrs Botes and van der Watt and he was under your jurisdiction. Were there other cells under your personal jurisdiction?

MR KRIEL: Yes, Chairperson, I gave several persons instructions to form cells and to go over to terror. Many of these people did not react and nothing came of it eventually.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising, Mr Loubscher?

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER: Yes, Mr Chairman, thank you.

&#9;Mr Kriel, in answer to the question of the Chairperson you said that you were expelled from the AWB during the course of last year, that's 1997?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, yes.

MR LOUBSCHER: Is it the case that you during December 1993 were part of a plan to create the resemblance that there was a rupture between you and the AWB?

MR KRIEL: That is correct.

MR LOUBSCHER: I think you've got to tell the Committee why it was necessary to create this smoke screen to create the impression that you and the AWB separated from each other.

MR KRIEL: During December 1993 the fears emerged that because the AWB and the other Boer organisations ...(indistinct) start of terror. The fear was there that we would be caught and we decided or Mr Terre'blanche decided that we had to protect the AWB and that we had to, we would have had a mock difference. Then he also gave me an instruction that we had to maintain that smoke screen for other people, that if indeed they wanted to break away, that they could not be linked to the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Loubscher to interrupt. We've heard from Mr Labuschagne for instance, that he resigned from the AWB just a month after that, would that have been a consequence of this mock set-up, this plan?

MR KRIEL: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would he have for instance been aware of the fact that it was just a ruse or would he have thought well, there is this definite separation, I've got a choice, two road to follow, I'm going to follow this one?

MR KRIEL: Yes, but there also dissatisfaction on the side of Mr Labuschagne with regard to certain actions of the AWB but me and him agreed to that. There were certain actions that we were not interested in. The decision for him was actually quite easy to make but it was a set on the side of the AWB that in case a person was caught they would not create problems for the AWB.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, because Mr Labuschagne did say the major reason why he broke away was because he felt there was a lot of ill discipline getting into the operations conducted by many of the AWB people. He thought they were getting a bit out of hand and he split away.

MR KRIEL: I also played a role in that he felt like that because I told him these things so that we could break away from the AWB to protect the AWB but my membership of the AWB only really ended in December of last year when I was indeed expelled.

MR LOUBSCHER: Can we just make it very clear then. Do I understand you correctly that Mr Labuschagne did not know that it was only a mock break-up, he didn't know it up until today?

MR KRIEL: He didn't know it up until today, Mr Chairperson.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Taka, any questions arising?

MR TAKA: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Sir.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Kriel, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher?

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Chairman, there's finally just one other witness I wish to call, that is Mr S J Hugo. He was the investigating officer who investigated all the crimes against the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, what are your full names please?

STEFANUS JOHANNES HUGO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher?

EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Hugo, you are a superintendent in the South African Police Force, stationed in organised crime in Welkom?

MR HUGO: That is correct.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.

MR LOUBSCHER: You were also the investigating officer in the case against the four applicants where they were charged with several offences as we find it in the indictment and as it appears from page 63 up until 84 of the bundle?

MR HUGO: That is correct, yes.

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Hugo, these charges, did you investigate them thoroughly?

MR HUGO: Yes, I did.

MR LOUBSCHER: Did you at any stage receive any indication in your investigation that these acts were committed as a result of anything other than political motive?

MR HUGO: They were definitely politically motivated.

MR LOUBSCHER: You found no indications of any other motives?

MR HUGO: No, I did not.

MR LOUBSCHER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Taka, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR TAKA: Just a few, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Hugo, why do you say that all these acts under all ...(indistinct) charges were politically motivated?&#9;

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was: why do you say that?

MR HUGO: Chairperson, right from the start of the investigation it was quite evident that it was an onslaught from the right side against the government and the parties who were then involved in the elections, and the trace was right from the start and it pointed to the fact that it was right-wing people who were involved in this. At the end of the day once we'd arrested the people, we had positive evidence that it was the AWB and the Volksfront who were behind this whole thing.

MR TAKA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR TAKA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Hugo, are you conversant with the classification of political motivation as it in the Act under which the Amnesty Committee operates?

CHAIRPERSON: That is the Act 34 of 1995, the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act. They define, well don't actually define but it's mentioned what a political objective is as contemplated by that particular Act, the TRC Act.

MR HUGO: Chairperson, I do not know so much about the Reconciliation Act which was mentioned but as far as my investigation was concerned it was evident to me that it was politically motives which were behind these crimes.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination, Mr Loubscher?

MR LOUBSCHER: No re-examination, Chairperson, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions?

DR TSOTSI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Just one, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Hugo, are you a member or supporter of any political party?

MR HUGO: No, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I take it there are no questions arising from that?

MR LOUBSCHER: None, Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR LOUBSCHER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Superintendent, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR LOUBSCHER: That then Mr Chairman, is the applications for the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Taka?

MR TAKA: Thank you, Chairperson, I do not intend calling any witnesses.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, there is no further evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher, are you ready to address us?

MR LOUBSCHER: We're ready to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to make the submissions now? Whenever you're ready, Mr Loubscher.

MR LOUBSCHER IN ARGUMENT: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, you are well conversant with the requirements for amnesty as set out in Section 20(1). We submit that the requirements of the Act were satisfied. We will come back to the requirement that the act should be associated with political motives. We submit that a full disclosure of all the relevant facts were in fact made. 

&#9;Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, when one has regard to Section 20, we submit that all four the applicants in fact fall within the ambit of Section 22(a). In other words, any member -: 

&#9;&#9;"Acts committed by any member or supporter of a publicly known political organisation or liberation movement on behalf of or in support of such organisation of movement bona fide in the furtherance of the political struggle waged by such an organisation or movement against the State or any former State or another publicly known political organisation or liberation movement."

In other words, the requirement as set out in (b) (c) (d) and (f) of that sub-section really falls away in the sense, Mr Taka made mention of authority and orders, that really falls away. If one has regard to Section 2(a) we submit that it is clear that where the - I can divide them actually in two groups there. You have Mr Kriel who gave the initial order and you have the other three who actually executed the order with their own commander in the structure. But it's, we submit, clear from their evidence, and it's nothing to gainsay that, that they acted on behalf of or in support of the Volksfront and to a lessor degree their evidence is also that the AWB in the person of Terre'blanche at the very least condoned the activities of this terror group, it I may call them that.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time and from the evidence of Mr Kriel it would seem, and just correct me if I'm wrong, that the incidents or the operations whatever you want to call them, were carried out in furtherance of as you've said, primarily the Volksfront at that stage, of which the AWB was itself and its members, affiliated to. 

MR LOUBSCHER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think that is evidenced by Mr Labuschagne's evidence, that even when he deemed himself no longer to be a member of the AWB he still continued with the campaign but under the banner of the Volksfront?

MR LOUBSCHER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So it's essentially Volksfront ...

MR LOUBSCHER: It's essentially Volksfront and more in particular the aim was the recognition of the so-called Volkstaat. ...(indistinct) is not a correct translation but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the ultimate aim was - I think that's now a South African word, the Volkstaat. You don't have to really translate it, it's like biltong.

MR LOUBSCHER: We further submit, Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, that if one has regard to sub-section 3 of Section 20 it is clear that if one goes through the sub-sections that the motive was clearly a furtherance of the Volkstaat idea. 

&#9;The context within which the acts were committed was part of the whole political, on the one hand negotiation process, but on the other hand at the same time there was this struggle perhaps outside the ambit of the negotiations at that stage because it was already excluded to get recognition for this.

&#9;We submit that the acts were clearly committed as set out in (e), with, at the very least with the approval o, but we say on behalf of the Volksfront and the whole idea that through this terror campaign the leaders of the Volksfront would in fact be able then to have a bargaining chip, to go to the then Nationalist Party Government and the ANC and say: "Look fellows, the people are not satisfied, this is going on, there is a terror campaign going on, deeds of terror are committed, we can stop it if you recognise to whatever degree but at least recognise the principle of the Volkstaat. ...(end of tape) ... exclusions sub-section really is the 1 and 2 of sub-section 3, namely for personal gain or out of personal malice.

&#9;We submit, Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think also if you take a look at sub-section 23, the criteria, you've also got further possible - I'm talking generally now, not particularly in relation to this matter, but you've got further possible exclusions, not directly but those are criteria which you apply, for instance proportionality, that sort of thing.

MR LOUBSCHER: It's merely the weighing up, Mr Chairman, and it's true but as in many of the amnesty applications one doesn't always deal whether it's State property or private property. The main object of it, and there's no suggestion whatsoever that there was any other object in mind of the three, four people involved in these applications, other than a political motive and the Volkstaat idea. 

&#9;There is probably only one possible conflict and that's where Mr Kriel said - and I must say, Mr Chairman, I all of them were very very frank, you heard in the end Mr Kriel's frank admission that his parting of the ways with the AWB in 1993 was in fact a sham and that the three others were led up the garden path so to speak for other reasons. He was forthcoming and very very honest and frank about it. The only possible dispute between them as to whether injury and loss of life, where does that really fit in.

&#9;Now you will recall that Mr Labuschagne initially said that they would try to avoid loss of life and injury and he listed the steps. They held a prayer meeting and then they timed the attacks in the evening so that they would minimise the chance of this occurring. Clearly he felt strongly about it. In cross-examination it was stated simply as a fact to him that those were his instructions. But it was clear from Mr Labuschagne's - if one looks at the whole tenor of his evidence, that he realised very well if you dabble with explosives only a fool will say or think that there isn't always a chance, a very real chance that people may get killed and injured.

&#9;Clearly, Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, Mr Kriel doesn't or didn't feel so strongly about it, while the other two members, the two very junior members, those without rank, they obviously followed orders but they were under the impression that they would try to avoid death and injury.

&#9;We submit however, Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, that that detailed difference should not be fatal for this application. In general the applicants were frank, they were open, they told the Committee exactly what they did, they told the Committee exactly why they did it, they told the Committee who was involved, especially when it came to Mr Kriel. 

&#9;We submit, Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, that amnesty should be granted to the four applicants for the deeds as set out in their applications and in particular the deeds as set out in the charge sheets.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Loubscher. Mr Taka, do you have any submissions to make?

MR TAKA ADDRESSES COMMITTEE: Mr Chairman, may I just divert a little, just to place on record the victims that I am representing, just for the record. We have two potential victims, Mr Tanyane: T-A-N-Y-A-N-E and Mr Porotlone: P-O-R-O-T-L-O-N-E. These are in respect of count 2, Mr Chairman. Then we have ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you say prospective victims, what do you mean?

MR TAKA: That they did not suffer any bodily injury or any damage to any property because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just the trauma?

MR TAKA: Correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that side of it, that is up to the Reparations Committee, it's just for us to - if we are of an opinion that a person may be a victim then in terms of the Act we must forward their names to the Reparation Committee. Are you suggesting that these names of these two people be forwarded to the Reparations Committee for consideration by that Committee?

MR TAKA: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you supply Mr Mapoma with addresses or how they can be contacted because that is also important, just to have names makes it very difficult for that Committee then to set about trying to find these people?

MR TAKA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I will do that. Mr Chairman, I have express instructions from the victims in count 3, that is the Wesselsbron explosion. They've indicated that in principle they do not object to the granting of amnesty and they've also indicated that they would like to approach the Reparations Committee later on for the necessary compensation. I will not make any submission insofar as the granting of amnesty in this particular hearing, because my instructions are that there should be no objection, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you then please supply their names and their contact addresses to Mr Mapoma who will then give it to us. If that could be done like today because it's preferable that in the decision they actually be included and referred to?

MR TAKA: I will do so, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Chairman, again the victims in count 6, I'm referring to Mr Ramorakane, Semelo, Mr Margaret Malinga, they have indicated that they want to oppose the granting of amnesty. On the basis of the evidence that has been given before this Committee, Chairperson, I will leave that decision in the hands of the Committee. I will not address the Committee on the merits of the granting or otherwise. But I will also submit the names of these victims to Mr Mapoma as requested by the Chairperson. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma, do you have any submissions to make?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chair, I have no submissions.

NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Loubscher, do you have any reply?

MR LOUBSCHER: Mr Chairman, just one thing that I forgot to mention and it's not really a reply, but my clients just requested whether Mr Taka would be so good as to identify after the adjournment, his clients to them, they would like to have a word with them.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be possible, Mr Taka? I've had it certainly, not in all applications but in quite a few of the hearings I've been involved in, I've had the experience where perpetrators and victims have met and I must say it's been a rewarding experience and although we all know that remorse is not a criteria for the consideration in the amnesty process, the overall objective is at least to kick-start a reconciliation and this if it's possible to take place, certainly I'm sure would be beneficial not only to the applicants but also to the victims.

MR TAKA: Yes, Mr Chairperson, the people that I represent have indicated their willingness to meet the perpetrators of the acts against them.

CHAIRPERSON: Well then if both sides are willing that's even much better. Thank you.

&#9;We will reserve our decision in this matter and expect to hand down a decision in the near future. It will be handed down in writing and you'll be let known as soon as possible. 

&#9;I would like to thank Mr Loubscher, Mr Taka, Mr Mapoma for their assistance rendered to us in this application.

&#9;Mr Mapoma, this is the end of our roll in Welkom is it not?

MR MAPOMA: Certainly, Chairperson, that is it.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I would then just prior to adjourning, like to thank the community of Thabong and the relevant authority for providing this very nice facility to us for having these hearings, it's a very nice facility indeed.

&#9;I would like to thank the Police Services for the security provided, although I must say that at no stage did we ever at all feel threatened in the slightest but the security was there in any event, thank you very much.

&#9;I would like to thank the sound technicians for providing the sound, the TV camera. It's been here every day. The interpreters for their work. It is an extremely tiring and difficult job doing simultaneous interpreting and the interpreters have done a tremendous job, thank you very much indeed. 

&#9;I'd also like to thank the caterers for spoiling us and giving us tasty food, tea time and lunchtime. Mr Mapoma who has been involved not only at the hearing here but to a great extent before the hearings. The Logistics Officer, Melaney, thank you very much indeed. If I've left out any person's name - our secretary, Mrs Pollock, thank you very much. If I've left out anybody's name I can assure you it hasn't been with malice or ill will. I thank everybody for making these hearings run as smoothly as they did, thank you very much.

&#9;We will now adjourn, thank you.

HEARING ADJOURNS

&#9;------------------

