&#9;1&#9;T MVUDLE 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;11.11.1996&#9;NAME:&#9;T MVUDLE

CASE: - &#9;&#9;KRUGERSDORP

DAY 1

_________________________________________________________

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mvudle, good afternoon.

MR MVUDLE: Good afternoon.

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome. Dr Russel Ally is going to help you in the telling of your story. I would just like Ms Seroke to help you take the oath. Thank you very much.

MR MVUDLE: (Duly sworn in, states).

DR ALLY: Mr Mvudle, welcome to you Sir. Can you hear me clearly enough?

MR MVUDLE: Yes. 

DR ALLY: Mr Mvudle, you are coming to speak about quite a few incidents yourself and other members of your family, your brother and you are, hopefully, also going to be able to shed some light on some of the testimony which we have been hearing so far which relates to this conflict taking place in the township, in Khutsong between different groupings sometimes believed to be part of the same political organisation in hearing groups like the Mazimzim and the Gadaffis, Maschengas and others. You seem to have been in a very important position as an organiser of ASASAN between 1985 and 1986 and perhaps had some insight into what was going on.

&#9;I am going to ask you if you would just please go through your statement with us and then maybe later we can try and answer or try to get answers to some of these 

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questions about what was actually happening in the township at the time. Thank you.

MR MVUDLE: In 1985 at Khutsong there was an organisation. At the time the ANC was still banned. We were part of the ASASAN organisation. The entire Khutsong youth at the time was a member of this organisation. 

&#9;Around March, June the school children in the township ...

DR ALLY: Sorry to interrupt you Sir. March, June, what year are you speaking of? March, June?

MR MVUDLE: 1985.

DR ALLY: Sorry.

MR MVUDLE: The school children were arrested in the township. Things did not go well, children were not going to school. We then worked together with the youth leaders of the political groups and the Reverends. We all tried to work together trying to stabilise the township. We called a meeting talking to the school children. They then agreed that they would stop the chaos if those that had been arrested would be released. 

&#9;The Reverends and the principals got together trying to work together. So because the school children promised that if the other children would be released then they would stop the chaos. A committee was formed to talk to the police. A lot were scared to go to the police. I was prepared to go. I went with the school principals and the Reverends from the township. We went to the police station to talk to the police. We talked to the Station Commander of Carletonville. We assured him that, truly, if he would release the students then things would stabilise. The children would go to school. 

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He then said because I stand for the Comrades they are releasing these children, but it is my responsibility. Anything that happens they would come to me first. They then asked for a list of the children that were arrested. They would call me frequently to go to court. Everytime the children would be released until all the children were released. There were 86 children who were in jail. stabilised. 

&#9;In 1986 I was not active anymore, politically. My younger brother Thomas Mvudle, who was still at school at the time. Chaos erupted again. They burnt down the principals car. The police then would come to my house all the time looking for Thomas.

&#9;Around the 13th of March at night, we were sleeping. We heard the police knocking. When we opened the door they got inside looking for Thomas. My father said Thomas was not at home, he is always running away, we do not know where he stays. There was this Station Commander looking at me straight in the eye. He said he thinks he knows me, I look familiar. They asked me if I am a taxi driver. I said no, I am not a taxi driver. He then said, but I have seen you somewhere, I know you. I then said, I do not know where you have seen me. I knew where he had seen me, but I did not want to say anything. They were busy turning everything upside down, beds, everything. 

&#9;The same guy came back. He called Skeepers. I just heard him saying to Skeepers, now I know who this man is. I remember who he is he said. I think he is, he is the man who use to come with the Reverends to my office. I told him that is so. He said bring him with them. They said just dress up. 

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&#9;While I was with them in the van, there was youth in the van. We took to the youth to the police station. When we got there the others were being beaten up, but they did not beat me up at the time. They were given an order that I should not be beaten up. 

&#9;The children were charged with Section 50 at the time. They would stay in jail for 14 days without appearing in court. After the 14 days of detention they would go to court or be released. 

&#9;I was not charged. I stayed in the Carletonville Police Station for two weeks. I would ask the police when I am going to court. They said they did not know. After the two weeks they took me to Potchefstroom. I stayed there for a week. The following week they came to get me at about 3am, taking us to Rustenberg. There is a place in Rustenberg called Dwaalboom.

&#9;At Dwaalboom there were others who had been arrested. They had also been assaulted. At about one in the afternoon they called me. They said I seem to know a lot and I have been organising a lot. They requested information about the children who would go to Botswana and Zambia. They then asked who helped them, who helped these children go to Botswana and Zambia? I said I do not know anything about that. They said, no you know. I said I do not know because I am no longer politically active. They said I should know who helps these children. They took a shambok from the van. There were two black policemen. The one was Venter Rampete, the other from Potchefstroom. I do not remember his name. They took our shirts off and then started assaulting us withe shamboks. We kept on denying, saying we do not know. &#9;At about three they put a fire on. They had a braai. KRUGERSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

 

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They would take us one by one. There was a forest nearby where they would take us. After coming back from the forest you just would not be able to talk. I would ask the other what happened. They would say no, we have been really beaten up at the forest.

&#9;At about four they took a group from amongst us. Four of us were left behind. The boys were braaing meat. The one then said to the others, Skeepers said to van Wyk, the fat one. He was saying they do not know what they are going to do about me because I had put them in trouble. Van Wyk was drinking brandy the whole time. He said that they are all the same. They took the fork that they used for the meat, came to me. I was half naked. He put it on my back. This mark is as a result of that assault. They burnt me. They said that I would tell the truth. I said I do not know anything. 

&#9;Venter then was called to the side. They talked to him. I do not know what they talked about, but Venter was talking Afrikaans. I could not understand well. They then called me. They took us back to Potchefstroom at about 12 midnight. They kept on giving me sulphur. I stayed there for three months. I was in detention. I was not going to court. 

&#9;My family kept on asking me why I was detained, when I am going to court. I did not know. My family tried to get a lawyer. Eventually I was called to go to court. I went to court in Carletonville. When I got there I was called last. They just told me to leave. They told me I am free because I am innocent. That is how I got home after three months. I had lost my job. 

&#9;After a while I was not active politically at all. 

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Around October 1989 at the Carletonville township, people started fighting, fighting against the police. People in the township were burning the police houses down, even the police themselves. People were being threatened. When they are coming back they take their groceries. People were forced to drink cooking oil. 

&#9;There is a man who stayed in the township. His name was Moss. They went to him, he had a tavern. One afternoon a group of children went to Moss' house and burnt down his house and his cars. When they were asked what Moss had done they then said he is being bribed by the police because they saw one night, a police van going to his house. 

&#9;We were also confused. We did not know what was happening exactly. Before we would at least know what is going on, but now everybody was being harassed, being raped. We did not know what was happening. If this group would come to your house, they would take your daughter and rape her. You were supposed to keep quiet and not tell the police because as soon as you go to the police, you were labelled as an informer and you were supposed to be killed. We did not know what was happening in the location. There were school boycotts until December. 

&#9;Before December, in November a certain young man from Soweto came to Carletonville. His name was Gadaffi. Gadaffi joined this group of young men. We were well aware that they were the ones who were active at the time. This is when things started being chaotic. 

&#9;Machona's house was burnt down. When we asked why Machona's house was burnt down they said that they saw police coming from his house at night. Mr Machona said the police came to my house because one of his taxi drivers 

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bumped into a Boers car in Vrystaat. Now, these police had come to look for this man and I had said that this man was no longer under my own employment, but when he was explaining this his house was already burnt down and his business. He use to sell cooldrink. It then was later revealed that the Machona incident was connected with someone in the location that I refuse to name. He apparently bribed these young men, gave them money to burn down Machona's house so that he can carry on with his business.

&#9;We lived like this in the township for a while. We did not like what was going on. Around January or February there was a young woman, Lina Maseko, who stayed on the same street as me. She was also a Comrade, she would wear the uniform. One evening at one of our back streets, I think she wanted to withdraw from the group because at home they did not like her being part of the group. After three days they sent her boyfriend to her. This boyfriend took her to the others who were waiting for them by the corner. They burnt her down, they killed her, they burnt her to death. Those of us that were previously active, we got together and said that this is not the way to go about things. Everything was out of control. 

&#9;Around March the township civic came together and the other concerned residents. We got together at the Roman Catholic Church. We were discussing the chaotic incidents in the township. We knew all the children except the two that came from Dobsonville. His name was Sepho. We then decided that we must look for these children, they must be taken to the stadium and then at the stadium we must show these children to the community. 

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&#9;I just want to revert back. Before this happened there was a woman who stayed in our street. Her name was Maggie Malindi. She also was killed, burnt to death. Her corpse was burnt for three days. They would put a tyre on her and then burn the corpse. No one was supposed to come close to her. The reason why she was killed is because her brother, Simon, had an argument with one of the members of the Gadaffi. Simon stayed in a shack. Maggie was standing outside. She then called out saying that Simon, they are here. He then ran outside, through the window. She was then killed because she had alerted the brother that he was going to be killed. 

&#9;Anyway, we realised that something is out of control. Something must be done. The evening we met at the Roman Catholic Church. We had an agreement that we are going to meet at the Roman Catholic Church, but one of the Gadaffi members went to tell these boys that they are going to be hunted that particular night. When they met at seven o' clock my brother, who is Thomas Mvudle, was also involved. While they were still there at the Roman Catholic Church taking a decision, they heard a blow, the windows were broken. There were petrol bombs thrown inside. Other parts of the Church were burnt down. They went out to chase this group. I understand one of them was caught and he was shot with pangas and he was killed. His name was Libiro. He was the first victim from the Gadaffi group. This went on and on. 

&#9;The following day I heard that my home was burning because I was no longer staying at home. When I went home I could see that there were a lot of school children outside. I asked them what was happening. They said we are KRUGERSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

 

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looking for Thomas. Others were having petrol bombs in their hands. I told them that this is not Thomas' house. It is Tema's home. I am also a first born in this house, but this is not my house. So if you want Thomas just go straight to Thomas, do not burn the house, because this house does not belong to Thomas. How would you feel if I happened to quarrel with you and then I will go and burn your homes without quarrelling with your parents. Some of them use to know me and they use to have great respect for me because when I came in they went out and the others said to others, no he is telling the truth. Let us leave the house alone and start looking for Thomas. A police Casper came and they ran away. 

&#9;I asked them at home where Thomas was. They said, no, Thomas came yesterday and he came to fetch his clothes. I went to look for them where they were hiding. They were in one house which was situated on the outskirts of the township which belonged to Mrs Maggie Munene. This is where I heard what actually happened.

&#9;They said they were at the meeting with the Civic Association so as to tell them about what was being done by the youth in the township. Unfortunately they got the wrong information and they attacked them in the Church. Most of them, while they were attacked, they ran away. Only a few of them were left, about eight of them who did not run away. Those were Thomas' school mates. These group of Gadaffi were Thomas' school mates. He said he did not like what was being done by these youth because they cannot tolerate that anymore. He also reminded me about the incidents that I had forgotten. That about a few girls who were caught and were locked up in some school and their ears were chopped off and KRUGERSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

 

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they were forced to eat those ears. This was done by this very same group of Gadaffi. So my brother was prepared to fight this evil. 

&#9;They use to tell me at home that this Gadaffi group is coming and their intention is to burn the house, but I also told myself that I was not going to tolerate that because I knew that my parents will end up homeless. I joined the very same gang. 

&#9;Coming to this Mazimzim group. Mazimzim group was not a gangster. It was named because the people who were involved in this group like myself and Spankie Lesotho. In 1985 and 1986 we were active as members of ASASAN and now ANC was unbanned so they wanted to label us. That is why there was this name, Mazimzim. This went on and on. It was now a war where there were these two gangs, although one of them was not about gangsterism. We were fighting for the rights of the residents because the residents were confused. They did not know what to do. If your daughter was raped, you are not supposed to go and report the matter to the police because they would label you as an informer and you would be killed. 

&#9;The delivery trucks were not able to come to the townships. There was no schooling at all because of the group. The school children were also victims. We called our ANC members and talked to them and asked for their advice. We discovered that they themselves were afraid. This youth is under them, but they were afraid. They could see that what they were doing was wrong, but they were afraid to stand up and say it out that this was wrong.

&#9;There was a meeting that was held at one of the stadiums. There was a doctor by the name of Malcolm Tibo 

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who was active at the time. When he tried to tell them that what they were doing was wrong, all of them exploded and this doctor had to be escorted out because the youth wanted to burn him. Even the leadership in the township was afraid of these boys. Our leadership would come during the night and say that we know that you are doing the right thing, but it is very difficult for us to say it openly and tell these boys that they are doing wrong. We knew that they were afraid because they were going to be killed. 

&#9;We went to Daraca House where the ANC offices were situated, where we wanted to report this matter. We were also the youth of ANC. They were also the youth of ANC, but they were doing wrong things. They were doing these things claiming that they were Comrades although their actions did not show that they were Comrades. We approached Comrades like Pinwell Mduna, but there was no improvement. They tried to talk to this group to tell them that we should meet and resolve this problem, but unfortunately there was no attendance. This went on and on, people were dying in our townships. 

&#9;The ANC was trying to send people to the township to help us with our problem. One of the Comrades is here. Comrade Strike was sent to the township to help resolve the problem, but it made no difference. What I want to say is when they label us as sellouts, we were not arrested. It is true because we were fighting the same gang that has been fighting them, that was burning them, the houses down. 

&#9;All the police could not stay in the township. They had to stay elsewhere. This is why we were seen as if we were informers. The police would not come and arrest us. 

&#9;There were a lot of people who would come and support

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us, businessmen as well. If they say that we got guns and 

weapons from the police, that is incorrect. We would buy these. There were businessmen who were suffering in the township. If they came to you and if they took your money, you were not allowed to go to the police because they would burn your house down. So there were people who would give us money in the dark. They realised that we are helping there businesses. A lot of people died, a lot of people were killed by this gang. 

&#9;Around June we got a message that we are needed at home. We then were told that the gang went to our house, the Gadaffi house. When they got there they asked for Thomas Mvudle. They did not find him, but they found my mother and my younger sister. They had pangas, guns, axes. Apparently, my sister, as she told us, they said that they take my mother and shake her roughly asking for her sons, especially Thomas. They said that when they find Thomas, they would kill him instantly. I think my mother was in absolute shock and she must have fallen down. When she fell the gang ran away. 

&#9;Our neighbours called the ambulance. She was then taken to the hospital. She stayed in hospital for three days and she passed away. She had a stroke. What is most painful is that when all this happened. We asked my sister who are the men that were here. She said she is not sure, but she did see a few that she knew. She saw Banama, Pitcherman, Jomo and Mandla, Mpanomandla, she saw Sepho, she saw Gadaffi. The others I do not know well, but my younger brothers know them.

&#9;When we were making preparations for the funeral, we were called yet again. We were not staying at home at the

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time. We were told that they had gone back to our house wanting to burn it down. We came back. Fortunately, when we got home they were still on there way. They had petrol bombs, they were singing. When we appeared, we did not have an alternative, but to all fight. They then ran away. We were asking ourselves, that they have killed our mother, we have not even buried her. Now they want to burn our house down. Where are we supposed to bury my mother. Why do they not wait for us to bury my mother and then they can come and burn the house down. 

&#9;We went back to the ANC. We went to their Head Office to complain. At the time a lot of reporters would come to Khutsong. Most of them were biased, they would take incorrect reports, propaganda, there was no truth. 

&#9;If the truth be told, a lot of bad things happened in Khutsong, I do not want to name people because there are certain woman who are in the township who were members of the Womens League. These women took the very same gang, the Gadaffi, took them to Natal. They were taken to the witchdoctors so that the bullets would not enter their bodies. It is painful to think of such, these people are denying that they took part in the chaos. These things happened in the township. I have said a lot. People were dying from all sides. 

&#9;The ANC would try to resolve the conflict. One day they called both the gangs. They agreed to meet with us so that we could talk. I think that what made them come was that they could see that a lot of them were dying. Even though I do not believe in violence, I think that our group helped to stabilise things. If these boys were not coming against violence as well, they would not have stopped. 

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We met at Tshatse. We all talked. It was said that everything was then out of control. A lot of youth had died. The Khutsong parents would instigate their children. This is why a lot of children are dead today. 

DR ALLY: Mr Mvudle, thank you very much for your very comprehensive statement. I am actually, requested from the Chair, that we actually break now to give you a chance also, after that long statement, just to get your breath back and when we come back after lunch, what time?

CHAIRPERSON: Ten past two.

DR ALLY: At ten past two, if you do not mind, we would just like to ask you a few questions, but we will be very brief. So, if we could break for lunch. If we could stand while the witnesses leave, please, and come back at ten past two. CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mvudle, I hope you have had some lunch and you have had some rest. Dr Ally is going to start off with some of the questioning again. So, if we can proceed. Thank you.

DR ALLY: Mr Mvudle, you gave us a very comprehensive account of your understanding of the conflict in Khutsong. I am going to ask you a few questions. I am going to try to be brief because we have had you here for a long time and I do not want to keep you here too much longer. Just to try and help us to understand what was actually happening.

&#9;Now these incidents that you describe is mostly in the early months of 1990, throughout 1990 and you describe the conflict. You say that a group who once considered Comrades, who still believe themselves to be Comrades, actually involved themselves in activities which could not really be politically justified. This group you identify as the Gadaffi group and it was their activities, their 

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assaults, rapes and abductions of people which forced a response and often that response was also a violent response from the other Comrades. That group became know as the Mazimzim. 

&#9;But we have also heard, and I am sure you were present in the hall, testimony from the other side. In fact just before you Mrs Nomandla who actually blamed the Mazimzims and implicated them directly in the death of her husband who was shot. Now, how do you respond to that accusation? That the Mazimzims themselves were also a group that resorted to violence and they were also responsible for deaths of people? 

MR MVUDLE: My answer to that would be amongst us we had a lot of people who had been harassed. Therefore, people wanted revenge in a way. We could not stop them. We were not clear as to what happened and who caused the chaos. We had problematic people within our group. People who we also suspected that were informers. They would befriend the police. When we would try to advise them against this, they said they are protecting themselves. We would hear that something has happened in a certain place. It is like Mrs Nomandla. A lot of us were not in the township when it happened, when her husband died. We read it in the papers. By then we were trying to calm down. Therefore, I cannot say I know what happened at Mrs Nomandla's house.

DR ALLY: Mrs Nomandla, in her testimony, speaks about Thomas Mvudle as actually being present as well. Do you know anything about that?

MR MVUDLE: I do not know anything about it.

DR ALLY: But you are not prepared to comment either way, you do not know. Is that what you are saying? You are not 

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saying that she is wrong to mention Thomas, you are saying that as far as you know, you are not aware of anything with regard to Thomas in that incident?

MR MVUDLE: As I have answered, I do not know, because I was not in the township at the time. He could have been there. I could say that he was there, maybe he was not there. I cannot answer, I was not there.

DR ALLY: Thank you for that answer. And some of the other names which she mentioned, were they familiar to you, like Tony Tshabalala? Are those people who were actually part of the organisation which was known as the Mazimzim?

MR MVUDLE: As I have said a lot of things were happening in the township. A lot of people were involved in violence. Some people were just retaliating. The Mazimzim would be blamed for a lot. If anything happened, the Mazimzim would blame the Gadaffis and the Gadaffis the Mazimzim. Maybe either of the groups had anything to do with some of the violence. Bodies would be picked up from a lot of places in the township and nobody would know who killed them. 

DR ALLY: And what about the role of the police in all of this? Do you want to say something, perhaps, on that issue, because with this conflict taking place in the townships, obviously the police were aware of it. What do you think their role was in all of this?

MR MVUDLE: As I have already said when the violence started in the township it was directed to the police. Their houses were being burnt down and they were being killed. We were fighting for our own rights. The police took advantage. They thought that we were working together with the group that was harassing them. They perceived that we were on their side. As I have said a lot of children died. We did 

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not know how they died. We suspect that it is the police that killed these children. The police would not work in the township during the day. They had to work in the night. They would work in the dark and then they would leave.

DR ALLY: You also spoke a bit about the ANC, about the ANC leadership and your constant requests and appeals for the ANC to intervene. What exactly was the difficulty and the problem with regard to that because here both groups were claiming to be members of the ANC and yet they were killing each other?

MR MVUDLE: As the ANC had recently been unbanned at the time a lot of people joined it because people could freely join it. The leaders of the ANC would have a problem with criticising them because they realised that a lot of their support came from them. We are ANC members, but it is only a few of us who stand for our rights and we would clearly stipulate what we did not appreciate. I think that the ANC was too scared that it would lose some of its members to the PAC. This is why not everything was resolved as it should have been. 

DR ALLY: In your view what was the political orientation or position of ASASAN before the Comrades went into the ANC in 1990 because you were active in 1985, 1986 and you say that became a label later. So could you just tell us a little bit about the political orientation? The way you understood it, of ASASAN?

MR MVUDLE: At the time we were not too politically aware, we were just fighting against any oppression that was focused on the black man. It is the police that are protest the most. The Government of the day. Mogapi who was the first witness said that they would attach the buses. We 

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would fight anybody who was in cahoots with the white man. That is all we knew.

DR ALLY: And at that state, what type of political loyalties did ASASAN show? I am asking this just to try and get some understanding of the developments later. Where did ASASAN see itself as fitting in in the liberation movement given that there were so many organisations in 1985, 1986? Are you able to answer that?

MR MVUDLE: As I have already said, in 1986 before I was arrested because the police wanted my younger brother. I was not politically active. I did not participate again until I was a member of the Mazimzim group. So, I cannot answer your question, Sir.

DR ALLY: Thanks, that is helpful, because I just wanted to be clear that the 1985, 1986 period, there was no sense that this was ANC or PAC or Black Consciousness. As far as you are concerned, it was just a movement fighting against oppression of black people and that you saw the States institutions like the police and so forth as the enemy. Was that broadly how the political struggle was understood by you and by others in 1985, 1986?

MR MVUDLE: We just wanted freedom because there was a lot of oppression. We realised that even our education was not up to standard. Our parents received minimum salary. They did not have a living wage. The youth at the time could not differentiate between AZAPO, ANC and PAC. We perceived everyone who was arrested for political reasons as our leader whether they were PAC members, AZAPO or ANC.

DR ALLY: And as far as you are aware, did this position change after 1990 when the political organisations were unbanned, after February 1990. Was there more of a sense 

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then of having to belong to one or the other political organisation?

MR MVUDLE: A lot of things changed. People were enlightened, especially the youth. That is why there is a strong movement now because everybody joined the ANC after they realised what the ANC stands for and compared it to the other organisations.

DR ALLY: And when Mrs Nomandla spoke earlier, she gave her account of where this group, the Mazimzims, as she understood it, came from. She spoke about the police dropping pamphlets in the township and the police offering rewards of up to R5 000.00 for people if they would come forward and report on those who were burning houses. How do you respond to that understanding of hers about this movement, the Mazimzim?

MR MVUDLE: My mother died in June in 1990. We buried her on the 17th of June. Mrs Nomandla's statement here was that the police were distributing these pamphlets around August the first. 

DR ALLY: She said the sixth of August 1990, was the date that she gave when the pamphlets were dropped in the township.

MR MVUDLE: There is a discrepancy between our statements. I think this started around the third of May. This is when this group within the community was formed. My mother died around June. The police then distributed the pamphlets around August. Maybe there was a group, another one that was formed after August. Well, it is, maybe she is talking about another group altogether because there is a discrepancy. 

DR ALLY: Do you have any direct or personal knowledge of 

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the police involving themselves in this conflict by either making approaches to any groups or individuals? Did you have first hand knowledge of anything like that happening in the township?

MR MVUDLE: What I know is that a lot of children died. As the first witness talked about Welverdien, a lot of children died there. The police would take them at night and the children would disappear being killed at Welverdien. Like the Eugene Bolawo case, the police took him and killed him. There were two people who witnessed the murder and both these people were killed three months before they were meant to testify. 

DR ALLY: And Mr Mvudle, now, Dr Randele did ask the question earlier of another witness, but it would be interesting to hear your views of how you see the situation in the township, now in Khutsong and whether you think there is a need for anything to be done. Either by other organisations or just generally what the situation is.

MR MVUDLE: I think that things are normal in the township now. We are fortunate in Khutsong because we only have one organisation, the ANC. There is no opposition. Things are now going smoothly. There are no problems right now. 

DR ALLY: You do not see lots of scars or bitterness still from the past because it seemed as if what was happening is the community was turning against each other. Friends against friends, we have had mothers come and speak about what had happened to members of their family and you see names mentioned, implicated either said to be members of Mazimzim or members of Gadaffi. You do not see that as having left scars or divisions amongst the community?

MR MVUDLE: I think that there are no such marks. It takes 

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time for people to forget. It is only time that heals. We live in harmony. 

&#9;I had not finished before lunch. We all met and we all talked saying that we are all residents in the township. We have lost parents, friends. Therefore there should be peace. That is why there is peace now in the township after that meeting. We talked to each other, there is no bitterness, nobody wants to retaliate. 

DR ALLY: Sorry, this meeting you are speaking about, when did it take place exactly and who are the people who were involved in the meeting?

MR MVUDLE: As I said, the ANC was endeavouring to acquire peace in the township. A lot of people were sent to the township. Mr Strike was there who is present in the hall, Comrade Numvelong Konyana who is here as well. These are the people who participated in the peace making. I think it was 1993 that the meeting took place. It is since then, we were all called to the Anglican Church. Both sides were asked to verbalise their grievances and people spoke. We were open, we said what it is that we do not like. We said the children must go back to school because the children were no longer attending school. 

&#9;Thirdly, no police vehicles should enter the township. Point number four, the police must do their jobs. People were taking advantage because there was no order. Number five, people had run away. Those people should be allowed to come back to their homes. Number six, we said that they must stop burning down peoples houses. If they would stop all that then, definitely, there would be peace. 

&#9;They also voiced out their grievances. They had only one. That we should stop liaising with the police. That is KRUGERSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

 

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all they had to say. After that there was peace. To this day there is peace.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much Mr Mvudle. I am going to give you back to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. 

MS SEROKE: So you say that now there is peace. Everybody is talking to everybody else. Is there something that could, perhaps, be done in Khutsong that would commemorate the fact that there was violence, but now we live in peace. As you said a lot of children died. Is there something perhaps that would reiterate the peace.

MR MVUDLE: Our organisation, the ANC organisation is the one that I would like to stand up if there is violence in the townships. The leadership should do something immediately. Should be the one who should be in the forefront and say no. That will unite all of us because everything starts there. We do things and pretend as if we are doing whatever under the name of the organisation. At the end that becomes a problem. I would be very happy to see that because the struggle all over the world is controlled by the youth. If they can unite our youth, that our youth should know what is the right path for the struggle. I do not think we will ever face problems again in our townships if the situation is like that.

MS SEROKE: Thank you very much. Could there, perhaps, be something else that could be done that would help the community at Khutsong? Something in that line to, yes, something that will remind us, even during our peace that we should never go back to violence. 

MR MVUDLE: I would request that all people who died in Khutsong on both sides, a tombstone that would commemorate all KRUGERSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

 

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the victims, a tombstone where all the victims' names would be written. Maybe if we would see the list of the people who passed away, see the number, the magnitude of it all maybe that would be a constant reminder that we should never let it happen again. 

CHAIRPERSON: Tamsange, before I sum up, I just want to ask a few questions. What do you do yourself, at the moment? What is your work?

MR MVUDLE: I am trying to form my own business, bricks, brickmaking.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to ask, we have talked about the Mazimzims and we have talked about the Gadaffis. There has also been mention of another group in Khutsong called the Shangas. Can you tell us something about that group?

MR MVUDLE: The Shanga issue involves a lot. It is convoluted. This organisation is formed of elderly men. Elderly men who were retrenched from the mines because Carletonville is surrounded by mines. Criminals would rob a lot in the township. They would rob, stab and kill those people who were employed. Some people would be badly injured. The community in the township then formed a group that would fight these people, these criminals. We supported that because crime affected us all in the township.

&#9;People's businesses deteriorated. People could not even walk in the evenings. Portgugese people had launched bars in the town, in the city. Therefore people would stay in the bars in the city. We supported these elderly men because when they started fighting the criminals the violence subsided and people would walk around the streets, but then it got a bit out of control because amongst these 

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people there were some with hidden agendas. When members of the ANC, that were the elderly men, and then there was the youth as well. The Youth League would clash with the elderly men. The elderly men then started attacking the members of the Youth League and there would be disharmony in the meetings. That was something different altogether. 

&#9;People in the township then realised that these people had a good motive initially, but things now, somehow, have gotten out of control. People would just be attacked sporadically, even innocent people by the very same group. The police then started fighting them as well. This is when things subsided. 

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Tamsange, I do not have anymore questions. You came here to talk about yourself and what happened to you and, of course, the death of your mother and we are very sorry to hear about the death of your mother, but from your own account you played a very important role in contributing towards where you are today in Khutsong. I think, certainly from the Commissions point of view, what you have actually related to us today in terms of trying to understand, because it is. If any of us ever said that the struggle was between black and white, Khutsong is an example of how, to use your own words, how convoluted that black and white struggle could become. 

&#9;We thank you for giving us your insights into the troubled times that township went through and we wish you well in all your endeavours in the future. Thank you very much. 

MR MVUDLE: Thanks.

 

 

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