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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 26/28-08-96&#9;NAME: NOTAYITI MAVIS NDOTSHAYISA&#9;&#9;&#9; 

CASE: EC /96&#9;&#9;UITENHAGE

DAY 1

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CHAIRPERSON: I would like to swear Notayiti and ask her to stand.

NOTAYITI MAVIS NDOTSHAYISA: (Sworn duly states).

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you madam, and we thank you that you have availed yourself before this Commission to come and give us your story about Melvin Mkwenkwe Ndotshayisa.

MR DENZIL POTGIETER: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Good afternoon, and welcome. You have waited some time to come up to the stage and tell your story to us and we are grateful for your patience. 

&#9;Now, your evidence like most of the stories that we are hearing here today takes us back to 1985, which was a time of extensive strife and conflict in Uitenhage and in fact your story concerns your late husband who was killed on the 24th September 1985. Now, before we get to that, perhaps you can tell us very briefly about yourself, who you are, where do you live before we get to the story about your husband.

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: In 1985 we were sleeping with my husband and it was at night, his name was Nkwenkwe Ndotshayisa and at about 2.00am there was a knock at the door. It was policemen, black policemen. My husband stood up and opened the door. He took a glass lamp and set it alight and the policemen asked "Where were the boys", my husband said, "I don't have boys here in this house, I only have girls". Then the policemen asked him "Where are those girls". My husband said there were no boys in that home, then he took this lamp and went into the girls bedroom and there was one of my daughters by the name of Norita and this policemen beat Norita and my husband asked why they were beating our daughter.

&#9;Then the police beat my husband and shot him in the leg and he fell down and I screamed and asked them why did they shoot him. They pointed the gun at me an I ran out of the house.

&#9;I heard a loud shot as I was going out of the house and I was running at the time, then the policemen came out and I was hiding somewhere and when I saw that they had gone out of the house, I went back and I found my husband lying down on the floor. The intestines were exposed, then these policemen went to call the white policemen. 

&#9;I then saw these white policemen coming into the house. There were many of them, round about seven in number. 

&#9;They asked from those who were there, they asked why did you kill an elderly person. I don't know what answer they gave. Then an ambulance was called by the very policemen and whilst the others were waiting in the house with me, but the ambulance came when my husband had already died and he was taken away.

&#9;I think I am through with my evidence.

MR POTGIETER: It's clearly a very painful memory that you have got and we appreciate your sharing that with the Commission. I know it is very hard for you to tell the story and give your evidence, but I just want to, and I don't want to prolong it unnecessary. I just want to ask you one or two things. Just to try to get some clarity and try and get some information that will help the Commission in trying to see what we can do about this incident.

&#9;The police that came into the house the first time, before the shooting happened, did you know any one of them?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: No. I didn't know them.

MR POTGIETER: In your statement you say that they were the policemen known as "Ama-Tshaka". The Municipal Policemen. Is that correct?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes, it was like that but I am trying to say that I don't know them by name. I just know that they were a group of policemen called Ama-Tshaka.

MR POTGIETER: I understand that. Thank you. I gathered from what you said you have daughters, you have got children, but they are daughters, not sons, is that correct?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes, it is like that. My son is very young, he is still suckling, otherwise I have girls only. 

MR POTGIETER: In all, how many have you got?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: I have got five children.

MR POTGIETER: The son, you say is the youngest, is that correct?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes. I think he is about 18 years old now. He was born in 1978.

MR POTGIETER: And the eldest one of the five. How old is that one, I assume that is a daughter?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: She was born in 1962.

MR POTGIETER: Your husband, when he was killed, was employed I take it?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes, he was employed.

MR POTGIETER: Was he the only one in the family that was working and a living?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Even our daughter Norita was working at the time.

MR POTGIETER: And yourself?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: No, I wasn't working.

MR POTGIETER: Since the death of your husband in 1985, have you been raising the children on your own?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes, I have brought them up all by myself.

MR POTGIETER: In the statement that you gave to us, you said that there was an inquest and it was found that nobody was to blame for the killing of your husband. Is that correct?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes, it is like that. 

MR POTGIETER: Where was that inquest held?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: By a lawyer named Majodina here in Port Elizabeth.

MR POTGIETER: In Port Elizabeth, was the case also heard in Port Elizabeth?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes.

MR POTGIETER: What was the reason given by the police for having shot your husband. What reason did they give to the court?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: They did not state any reason. What they said is that, they said those policemen who had killed him were discharged, because many of the policemen had been dying after all.

MR POTGIETER: The Attorney, Mr Majodina, has he instituted any claims against the police for the killing of your husband?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes, there are some claims.

MR POTGIETER: Do you know what happened to those claims?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes, I know.

MR POTGIETER: What eventually happened to it?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Majodina said it was not the end of the case and it went on until I a sum of R8000 which I did receive.

MR POTGIETER: Is there anything that you want to ask, in particular, that the Commission should look into for you or give attention to?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes. I have a request. There is my last born who is still going to school and I it is very tough for me to pay his school fees. If I could get assistance towards his education, I would be delighted.

MR POTGIETER: Is there anything else that you wish to add before I hand back to the Chairperson or is that all that you want to tell us?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: I've got nothing more to say, I've got no other requests.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you very much for your evidence. I will hand you back to the Chairperson now. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are there any questions?

&#9;Pumla Madikizela-Gobodo.

MR GOBODO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;Sisi, it's long that we have been getting reports of this nature, but every time we hear a report it seems to us what I would like to be clear about is that at the time your husband stood up to go and show the policemen the girls bedroom, what did these policemen say, what was the reason they stated for getting to the bedroom of the girls?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: They said they were looking for boys and my husband said we do not have boys in this family. We only have girls. They then said, "Were are those girls", so that is what made my husband to lead them there to the girls bedroom, just to show evidence.

MR GOBODO: Now, why then were these girls beaten, according to what we heard. There was just no reason whatsoever, they just did it out of malice. One other thing that I noticed from your information is that, when they asked, when these white policemen asked "Why was your husband, an elderly person shot" - now this makes me think that these policemen had orders that they should kill the young boys - could you tell us more about what you know about what I am saying?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: No. I have got nothing to say.

MR GOBODO: Now, if they were saying "Why do you kill the elderly person", it seems as if therefore they had instruction to kill the young boys, didn't you hear that perhaps they were looking for young boys?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: No. 

MR GOBODO: These Ama-Tshaka, what kind of policemen were these. Where do they come from and where were they employed, according to your knowledge?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: I don't know where they came from, but they were all over Soweto and they went into our house raiding.

MR GOBODO: What language were they speaking?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: They were not speaking proper Xhosa the way we speak as Xhosa's.

MR GOBODO: So, you are trying to say they were not Xhosa people, do you think they were speaking like Zulu or Sotho?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes, they were. What I am certain about is that they were not speaking Xhosa the way we speak.

MR GOBODO: So, you could say they were policemen who came from another area, not from the Eastern Cape?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: I don't know. 

MR GOBODO: The reason why I am asking is, I am trying to ascertain whether these policemen came from other areas to come and cause commotion here in the Eastern Cape so as to be able to do all the evil things they did, because it could have been very easy for people to come and kill, because they were not staying with these people. Despite they were black, they could do all the evil, only because they were not resident here, so that is why I am asking this question. Thank you. 

CHAIRPERSON: Over to you Mr Tiny Maya.

MS MAYA: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

&#9;Mrs Ndotshayisa, I have one question to pose to you. I am not even sure whether you did perhaps answer it. You say there was a court case once where you were represented by Lawyer Majodina. What was the outcome of this court case?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: This case was just dismissed. That was all.

MS MAYA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall the name of the Magistrate?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: No, I don't know his name.

CHAIRPERSON: What year was that?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: It was 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: In 1985, at the time of the Langa massacre the Magistrate was Mr Groenewald, so you are not certain who the Magistrate was at the time?

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes, I wasn't.

CHAIRPERSON: So this case, this case was referred to a Port Elizabeth court? 

MRS NDOTSHAYISA: Yes, because I live in Port Elizabeth.

CHAIRPERSON: We thank you Mrs Mavis Ndotshayisa for your report as forwarded before this Commission and I think that it is an indication that here in Uitenhage, the policemen were doing as they pleased. From morning to day we have been listening to all the stories about how policemen were just shooting widely, shooting people to death, we have been going round this country and even in this region, but I don't remember us getting so many witnesses testifying against policemen who were shooting widely at people.

&#9;I think this is quite evident that here in Uitenhage the policemen were war unto themselves. We may perhaps get more testimony on this matter but you can see that policemen were just shooting at people as if they were shooting at animals in this area. From the evidence we have, we therefore feel that Uitenhage is outstanding in such atrocities. 

&#9;We are going to investigate as much as we can even in that court where there was this inquest and find out if they said no-one was responsible for your husbands death, when your husband was actually killed in front of you and shot at by the policemen. We would want to know from them what they meant by that.

&#9;We would therefore thank you for your evidence as forwarded to this Commission and we are going to do our level best to get the truth of this and perhaps this could console you if you were to get the actual truth of what happened to your husband. We thank you.

 

 

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