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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;25.09.1996&#9;&#9;NAME: GEORGE LENTSELA

CASE: 01404 &#9; KLERKSDORP

DAY 3

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PROF MEIRING: Mr Lantsela, are you comfortable, can you hear me?

MR LENTSELA: Yes, I hear you, Sir.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Lentsela, you brought somebody with you, sitting on your right-hand side. Would you like to introduce him to us?

MR LENTSELA: Excuse me?

PROF MEIRING: There is somebody sitting on your right-hand side, a friend or a family member you brought along. Please introduce us to him.

MR LENTSELA: The one who is sitting on my right-hand is Daniel Lentsela. He is my brother.

PROF MEIRING: Very welcome to you, Mr Lentsela. Now Mr Lentsela, before we ask you to tell your story, will you please stand to take the oath.

GEORGE LENTSELA: (Duly sworn, states).

PROF MEIRING: Thank you so much. Now Dr Randera, over to you.

DR RANDERA: Mr Lentsela, good morning. Good morning, Mr Lentsela. Can I just ask, you say your brother is with you. Is this your brother, Daniel?

MR LENTSELA: Yes, this is my brother.

DR RANDERA: He is in fact the father of Buti Nijana Letsela, is that right?

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MR LENTSELA: No, he is the father to Richard Lentsela.

DR RANDERA: Richard Lentsela. I greet the father of Richard Lentsela as well, and I welcome him.

&#9;Mr Lentsela, you are from Ipelegeng, Schweizer-Reneke?

MR LENTSELA: Yes, I come from Ipelegeng, Schweizer-Reneke.

DR RANDERA: You have come to talk to us about Richard Buchi Lentsela.

MR LENTSELA: That's correct.

DR RANDERA: Before I ask you to tell us about Richard and what happened to him, can you please tell us something about yourself, are you working, are you married, how many children do you have.

MR LENTSELA: I was working, I do not work presently. I am married, but I am not married legally. We have three children.

DR RANDERA: Do you belong to any political organisation, Mr Lentsela?

MR LENTSELA: I am not a member of any political organisation.

DR RANDERA: Mr Lentsela, take your time, this is your opportunity to talk about your nephew, Richard. Tell us what happened to him.

MR LENTSELA: Richard was a student at the University of the North in Pietersburg. In 1984 he came home to Schweizer-Reneke. In that same year of 1984, he was employed at Vryburg as a teacher at Magamang High School. It took about six months in the same year 1984, and Richard came home in a car with three men. He was the fourth. He only greeted us and he said they were going somewhere. He was asked at home now what about your job. He said no, the job will have to wait for some time. He didn't spend a lot of time at 

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home, it was about ten minutes and they drove off in this white Mercedes-Benz car. That was the last day we saw him.

&#9;Thereafter police came in large numbers. They were troubling me at least twice or three times in the week. Both in daylight and at night. They would be carrying guns, looking for him. They asked us whether we know his whereabouts and we said no, we do not know. They were impatient when we told them that we do not know his whereabouts. They would come in the night and they would surround the house. 

&#9;There was just one White person called Potgieter. We were told he was from Klerksdorp. He would come into the house alone and he would search all the rooms in the house. Where my sisters are asleep he would pick up the blankets with the torch in his hand and he would search even underneath the beds.

&#9;One day, you know, I do not know them, but one day it was during the day, when he came in with a policeman I knew, and this policeman worked in Schweizer-Reneke before, it was Zipo Khatela. He was tampering, he was just a pain in our lives. 

&#9;In 1986 I met this other gentleman called Wesley Maklopane. He was working at Kimberley. He said to me he knows Buchi Richard Lentsela, and he said to me man, I think Richard has been killed towards the Warrenton direction. He said it was just a rumour, he will investigate this matter. I stood still. He said Potgieter has been saying that wherever he meets him he is going to kill him. 

&#9;I must tell you, in that year of 1986, Potgieter was so quiet, he didn't come to pester us at home any more. I stayed in that condition. If I don't forget, after about two KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;4&#9;G LENTSELA

months the Vryburg branch of the ANC held a rally at Schweizer-Reneke and there were pamphlets. Now in these pamphlets names of four people were written. These are the names of the people who were killed. He was the last to appear on that pamphlet, Richard Lentsela.

&#9;I got the shock of my life. I said what Wesley told me was the truth. At the same time there were people wearing T-shirts and on their T-shirts the death of Richard Lentsela was printed. It came to my mind that this White man must have killed Richard.

&#9;I went to Vryburg, because I was told the pamphlets were from Vryburg. I went to the constituency office of the ANC and on my arrival they told me that they only heard. They said they didn't even see it with their eyes, they were told that he was killed in Warrenton and the police themselves buried him. I do not know are they the police in Warrenton or is it Potgieter, because he was actually the person hunting this boy.

&#9;Even this year, in July, I have been to Vryburg, trying to get to the root of this matter. I was told that this matter is still under investigation, they want to investigate as to who killed him and where was he buried. I told them, I said please get hold of the perpetrator. I further told them that if they had identified the spot where he is buried, I would request the government to help me to exhume his body so that we can bury him in our traditional way. It would be much better to take his remains to come and bury them at home. That will be the end of my story.

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Mr Lentsela. I would just like to ask a few questions and clarify and add to what you have said already. Can you please tell us, did Richard have

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any brothers or sisters?

MR LENTSELA: This is Richard's father. They were two children at home, the only two boys. He was Richard and the other one who is still surviving. Last year his mother passed away.

DR RANDERA: Thank you. Can you tell us, was Richard involved in political activity at Turfloop or at Vryburg?

MR LENTSELA: We do not have an idea, but according to my speculation, this car that they were driving with, was not known at Vryburg. This car, the same car that I have referred to at the beginning, and we didn't know the occupants of the car. We only heard later by Petrus that the car was full of ammunition, and I realised that this person was involved in politics while he was still at Turfloop.

DR RANDERA: So it came as a surprise to you when you - did you see these leaflets that showed the pictures of Richard and these other three people?

MR LENTSELA: That's true, I saw the leaflets.

DR RANDERA: And you have a copy of that?

MR LENTSELA: No, I went to Vryburg and they said to me they will make me a copy, but unfortunately the Truth Commission wanted to see me urgently and I had to leave the matter.

DR RANDERA: Now you said that there was an ANC branch meeting in Vryburg, when these leaflets were given out. This is 1987, is that right? Are we talking about the right ...

MR LENTSELA: No, it was in 1986 towards October month, that is when the Vryburg branch held a rally at Schweizer-Reneke stadium. That is where the leaflets were dished out and these pamphlets actually forced me to trace this matter.

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DR RANDERA: Did you speak to anybody at the time in Vryburg who printed the pamphlets, to find out a little more about what had happened to Richard and his friends?

MR LENTSELA: Yes, I talked to the personnel at the constituency office and I went to the ANC office and they said to me those pamphlets were printed in Kimberley, but they will get the copy from Kimberley, if I want one.

DR RANDERA: I just want to correct one thing. If it needs correction. The ANC, as you know, was a banned organisation in 1986, in 1987. When you say you went to the ANC office, you are not meaning that it was a UDF office? There was no ANC in the country at the time, a legal organisation.

MR LENTSELA: When I went to Vryburg we were told that he died in 1986 and he was buried at Warrenton where he was killed. 

DR RANDERA: Did you make further enquiries in Warrenton, with the police or anybody else?

MR LENTSELA: I have never been to Warrenton to investigate but I was told that they are still investigating this matter in Warrenton and thereafter they will contact the relatives of Richard's.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, Mr Lentsela, will you please tell us, who told you that they are investigating this matter?

MR LENTSELA: I just forget his name, but the surname is Mokoena at Vryburg at ANC offices. I just happened to forget his first name, his surname is Mokoena.

DR RANDERA: Now you say many attempts by the family to establish the whereabouts of what happened to Vusi produced no substantial evidence. Besides this discussion that you had with Mr Mokoena in Vryburg, have you done anything, have you or your brother done anything else?

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MR LENTSELA: We took a lot of initiatives, because we even went to Johannesburg, we went to Orkney, we went to every place where we thought he had friends and our friends, and every time we meet them, they would say Potgieter had been here before and the same Potgieter had been to Orkney to look for him.

DR RANDERA: My last question, Mr Lentsela, did you go to Shell House in Johannesburg, the ANC headquarters, once the ANC was unbanned, to find out?

MR LENTSELA: In August this month, I have been to Vryburg, because they took the matter in their hands. They called Mafekeng, because they knew where to call. I was only taking my complaints to them and they called Mafekeng. If I remember well, it was the end of last month, they called me and they replied me and they said Richard was qualifying in the ANC. I think those are the people who are still busy with this matter, with the Shell House.

DR RANDERA: I will just ask my colleagues whether they want to ask any questions. Mr Manthata?

MR MANTHATA: Mr Lentsela, when the people at Shell House said he was qualified, what really were they referring to? 

MR LENTSELA: I can't hear you well.

MR MANTHATA: My question is, you have just said you went to Shell House and the people at Shell House told you that Richard was qualified. Now I want to know what qualifications were they referring to?

MR LENTSELA: I said I was at Vryburg and the Vryburg people called Mafekeng. I was in their presence when they phoned and they were asking as to whether he is a qualified member of the ANC, and the answer from Mafekeng was yes, he is qualified. They were replying the call from Mr Mokoena at 

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Vryburg.

MR MANTHATA: Mr Mokoena, now explain to us that if he was qualified ...

MR LENTSELA: His father was supposed to go and fill in two forms so that he can get compensation. That was what Mr Mokoena said. I didn't say I was at Shell House.

MR MANTHATA: My apologies.

MR MANTHATA: Now did Richard's father fill in the forms?

MR LENTSELA: No, he didn't. It was just yesterday when we were in Vryburg and we were still intending to go to Johannesburg to fill in those forms. 

MR MANTHATA: I thank you. At the time of his teaching at Vryburg, didn't you get any idea maybe that he was involved in politics as a teacher?

MR LENTSELA: Some people told me that he was politically active in Vryburg. This information was given to me by some of the people he was teaching, yes.

MR MANTHATA: When he came home with these three gentlemen, was he bringing the message that he is heading somewhere?

MR LENTSELA: That is correct.

MR MANTHATA: You have already mentioned earlier on that these three people were unknown. 

MR LENTSELA: We do not know these people, they did not even get out of the car. He was the only one who came into the house. He greeted everybody in the house and he was asked as to where he was going to. He said no, the job will have to wait for some time and he went out into the car.

MR MANTHATA: How did the community of Vryburg perceive Richard?

MR LENTSELA: Teachers at Vryburg, Mr Sididi and them, were people who were so sorrowful, because he was still a young 

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and a very energetic man and they all loved him.

MR MANTHATA: It is really convincing that he was well known and he was loved and he was supported by the people. We will advise you, Sir, to fill in those forms and we have to see what the ANC has to say.

MR LENTSELA: Are you referring to the forms at Vryburg?

MR LENTSELA: I am referring to the forms that have to be filled in by Richard's father, I am referring to those forms.

MR MANTHATA: Thank you very much.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Lentsela, just a few short questions. Your brother, Daniel, who is sitting with you, who was the father of Richard, how large is his ...

MR LENTSELA: That is correct, this is Richard's father.

PROF MEIRING: How large is his family?

MR LENTSELA: When these things happened, Richard's father is still working, is in Johannesburg, Richard was under my guardianship.

PROF MEIRING: Is his mother still alive at the moment?

MR LENTSELA: His mother passed away last year.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you so much. 

DR RANDERA: Thank you. Mr Lentsela and Mr Daniel Lentsela, father of Richard, I thank you for coming all the way from Schweizer-Reneke today to come and tell us the story of Richard. We have heard stories of many, many disappearances. Often people don't even known where their loved ones are. You were given some information about Richard and that he may have passed away, but even then there must still be uncertainty, and to live with that uncertainty on the one side must be very painful, and even if there was certainty, it must be painful to lose someone, 

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a son indeed, who held so much promise, but decided for reasons best known to himself at the time, to go on a different path. 

&#9;I would like to say that as far as these forms go that you mention, I am sure there are many ANC people here today who should be able to inform you. So you don't have to wait to go to Vryburg. These are, as I understand it again, government forms. It is a government issue now, it is not even an ANC issue. So those forms should be available through most of our offices. Therefore, if you can act on that very quickly. 

&#9;I would also like to say that we will try through our investigative unit, to determine what happened at Warrenton and also to determine from the ANC whether they have any information about this incident that happened at Warrenton, and we will let you know as soon as possible. 

&#9;I thank you very much for coming.

MR LENTSELA: I also thank you.

 

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