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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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 &#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;10TH APRIL 1997&#9;&#9;

NAME:&#9;MATIAS M NKWAMBA&#9;

CASE:&#9;0580&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;

HELD AT:&#9;TZANEEN

FINAL DAY

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DR ALLY: Welcome. This is our final day of hearing in the, in the Northern Province. We’ve been to Messina, to Louis Trichardt and to-day in Tzaneen but although this is going to be the last day that we have Human Rights Violations here in this region, we will be announcing, during the course of the day, we will be telling you about a follow-up meeting which is going to be held in the Northern Province in Pietersberg on the the third of May but we will give you all the details later, the venue and the time and also explain to you what the purpose of such a meeting is. So welcome and before we actually officially begin I’m going to ask Father Patrick Galvin if he would please open to-day’s proceedings with a prayer. Father Galvin!

FATHER GALVIN: Opens proceedings with a prayer and a hymn.

DR ALLY: We are going to ask you to just please bear with us to-day. This public hearing covers a very wide area. People will be coming from Tzaneen, people will be also, be coming from Phalaborwa, from Umkonkor and because of that, it’s quite likely that there are going to be some delays in the arrival of people. So please, bear with us. There are big distances which people have to travel. That is going to mean that we will have to change the program unfortunately, so the program that you have in front of you, for hearings to-day, we will have to change that somewhat to accommodate people as and when they arrive. So we won’t necessarily be following the order of the program which you have in front of you. I also just want to explain to people about the service which is provided. The interpretation service. There are these headsets. It’s a box and there are these earphones and what this enables us to do is to have four languages interpreted at the same time. So you can follow the witnesses and you can follow the proceedings, either in Afrikaans, if needed, which will be on Channel one. You’ll see on the side of this box there are numbers. There is a dial and you can either tune in on Channel one which will be Afrikaans, when needed. Channel two will be English throughout the proceedings. On Channel three you will hear Tsonga and on Channel four you will hear Northern Sotho Peddie. These headsets are available from, the front here where the, these booths are and I would urge those people who have difficulty following to, to get a set and to use that to follow the proceedings. Now as I said, not all the witnesses have arrived so we unfortunately going to have to change the program. Our first witness to-day, I’ll ask, please come forward.

MISS SEROKE: We’re going to ask Matias Nkwamba to come forward please.

DR RANDERA: Mr Nkwamba, good morning. Mr Nkwamba can you hear me?

MR NKWAMBA: Yes, I can hear you.

DR RANDERA: Good morning to you and welcome. Can you please... (interrupted)

MR NKWAMBA: Thank you.

DR RANDERA: Can you introduce the lady who is with you this morning?

MR NKWAMBA: Loi, this is my wife.

DR RANDERA: I extend a warm welcome to her too. Mr Nkwamba before I ask you to tell you story, will you please stand to take the oath. If you will just repeat after me, I swear that the story I’m about to tell is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

MR NKWAMBA: (sworn states)

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much. Mr Nkwamba we are with your story going back to 1985 to a place called Lulekane. You are going to tell us what happened to you and to your community in that area. We have of course got your statement but please take your time and tell us what happened in 1985.

MR NKWAMBA: Thank you. It was during 1970. We were staying in the Sotho Homeland at Palaborwa Magushane, Mashege, Masimali, Namagalin . During that time, it was the beginning of the homeland system. I left the place because I was not on good terms with the people in the community. It was during 1980. Later I reported the matter to the Palaborwa Magistrate Court and the Commissioner gave me the place by the name of Farm Kwagga. While I was at Kwagga many people started arriving, stay in my place and those people used to ask for transport. Normally this place was donated by the Tsonga speaking people. I helped these people by transporting them from their different areas and take them to Farm Kwagga. Because people started arriving in numbers and I couldn’t afford to help them, I requested the Gazankulu government to come and help. The government refused or failed to help. They said they were afraid that the government cars might be destroyed by the Lebowa people. They promised to pay me in helping those people. 

&#9;In 1981 an advisory committee was formed to run the community. Me, myself personally, I was the Chairperson of the Board, however things didn’t go well because we were not in good terms with the other members. At the very same time, we had a problem involving two children who disappeared. Their disappearance was so mysterious. The station commander by the name of Mr Fourie and Mr Nyati came to me to report the matter. I told them that I’m not going to take the matter because Jordaan is the person who’s responsible and I will take the matter to him. I took the matter to Jordaan and he said I must go and inform all the people and I did inform the people. We had a meeting at Nkatego High School. After we had the meeting we were told that one old woman took those children but I think those were all lies and rumours. My wife, when people started having gatherings, she also went to these meetings to find out exactly what was being discussed there and I’ll also like you to give her a chance to give exactly what was happening in those meetings. What I did is that I informed the police, because Farm Kwagga at that time... we didn’t have police, a police station in this place. The only police station was in Palaborwa and that’s where I reported the matter. Up to the tenth of June 1985, people came in big numbers to our place and they started burning my house and my cars and other properties, my businesses. My mother died. She, she wasn’t sick but she was affected by what happened to me. What surprised me is that Jordaan sent policemen to guard my family but they never did help us and they were present while all these things were happening. This is the truth that I’m telling here the way he, there and after the burning of my property, I had to take these policemen and go with them to town. While I was at the police station in town, I asked Constable, Mr Grobbelaar to call the Chief Minister of the Homeland Gazakulu, Mr Ntsanmisi and I talked to him, tried to explain to him exactly what happened. He was also surprised as to how come these things happened. However, what surprised me is that while I was in the police station, while talking to Mr Grobbelaar, Grobbelaar said to me, Chief Nkwamba, how did these things happen? Chief Tzangwisi said to me, take the phone from the constable and I took the phone from the constable and he asked me, tell me who is this person who’s saying Chief Nkwamba there at your side? And I said to Chief Tzangwisi, you better ask Mr Grobbelaar and I took the phone back to Mr Grobbelaar. Tzangwisi asked Mr Grobbelaar, why are you referring to Nkwamba as Chief Nkwamba? Grobbelaar just dropped the phone. 

&#9;As all these things happened, four young men were arrested and the case was had at the regional court. The magistrate asked me, as to whether you saw the people who burnt your house? And I told the magistrate that I didn’t see the person that burnt the house but there were many people and the magistrate said to me, those young men who were here, we are trying them because they killed someone by the name of Olossi Kumalo. They killed this person inside his house and the person was burnt right inside the house and they said that your case you’ll have to be compensated. This was said by the regional magistrate, Mr Coetzee. Those who were arrested, those young men, something surprised me. They were given bail by the state to be out of prison. They were sentenced eight years and out of eight years the case was taken over by the state and the matter was decided and they have to spend four years in jail. This worried me a lot and I couldn’t understand as to how the government have intervened in such a case like this. 

&#9;After, up to a stage where a newspaper was published which said, this newspaper report stated that I am a Mozambiquan citizen and I also came from Mozambique. This is the newspaper document. He said I am from Mozambique because this troubled him in his mind. The cause of his trouble is that when I got Farm Kwagga people of Farm Kwagga wanted me to be their Chief and this worried the Chief Minister and this led to him publishing this document and I’ll be very pleased if the Chairperson of this Committee might like to see what’s written in this document and this what’s destroyed my whole life. 

&#9;What also worried me a lot is that, the old regime, apartheid parliament. When the Chief Minister wanted to become a Chief, he should not have destroyed my life. The whole parliament should have asked me and sit with them around the table to discuss the matter so that there might not be any violence or confusion. They’re supposed to have heard this side of my story. They didn’t do that, they went underground and destroyed my things. This had worried me a lot. The parliament didn’t have any opposition. They had to take whatever the Chief Minister was saying. In other ways I can say, if the house didn’t have any power to oppose, that means that one person had to rule and he destroy whatever possible. 

&#9;After all this, they sent Mr Matchimane, Mr Langa and Magistrate Chahoke to go and collect me. They said I must be brought alive to parliament. When they arrived, I said, to ask them, what are you coming here for? They said the Honourable Minister have sent me to come to, and fetch you to go and talk to him and I told them that I don’t have any problem with him. If I have any problem, it’s me, between me and God because I’ve done all my work. I managed to fight for the rights of the people and I took them from the other lands and bring them to one place. I managed to talk to them. I didn’t do anything wrong to them and I haven’t, they haven’t done anything bad to me and he’s the one who’s troubling me in my life. Mr Chairman, I would like to ask you to take this into your hearts and understand that this is painful. I would like again to ask you, Mr Chairman. My house has been burnt down.

DR RANDERA: Mr Nkwamba, I’m going to ...Sir , can you listed to me?

MR NKWAMBA: I can hear you, the Honourable Chairperson.

DR RANDERA: .We will take whatever documentation you have afterwards. I would just like to ask you some questions please. 

MR NKWAMBA: Thank you.

DR RANDERA: Mr Nkwamba, I want to just go back to a time before you were moved to Lulekane. You said you were living in an area of Lebowa and you had businesses there already but then you started encountering problems with Peddie-speaking people who were saying that they were not happy with you as a Tsonga-speaking person. Now, I just want to go back and understand that a little. Did that arise suddenly or did that happen over a period of time? I’m asking this because yesterday when we were in Louis Trichardt we heard about the community of Vleifontein that also had all these groups of people living together and as the homelands structures were created people were then pocketed into their own homelands. Was it as a result of that, that this division arose or were there other reasons?

MR NKWAMBA: My answer is this. When the homelands started, that’s where apartheid intensified. I personally was given businesses and even other women, many women, they had businesses where they have to sell vegetables and they had licence and I also had licences for my businesses. These women, police from the Lebowa Government took all the licences of these women. I personally went to consult Mr Conrad concerning this matter, at the time of Commissioner, Mr Jansen, who is now at Orange Free State. We tried to sit down and solve the matter. I also had licence at Namagale but because of this homeland apartheid issue, we were told that we have to move and forget our businesses. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Sir. I just want to follow that up with a few other questions. You say in your statement again that you had applied to be the Chief of this area, to the Central Pretoria Government and then subsequently, Chief Minister Etswanisi came and installed himself as the Chief. Was that again a common thing that happened in this area where suddenly a Minister of Government comes and declares himself the Chief of the area?

MR NKWAMBA: This was a surprise to me and also to the community. When a person come and impose himself as a Chief and not being elected to be a Chief by the people. A person just like, a company like a very big tree which is so big and all of you are afraid of the tree. That was the kind of situation at that time. When there was an application to put me into the house as a Chief, I’m very much proud of that, because I think I deserved that. I worked a lot within the community, because I think to help the people was a talent given to me by God and I believe that and individual’s talent belongs to that particular individual. That was given by the God and even the Bible say so.

DR RANDERA: You have said in your statement that people resisted the installation of, of the Chief Minister as, as a Chief of your area. What resistance was shown and, and how did it show it’s, how did it manifest itself?

MR NKWAMBA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. On the 23rd of March 1986, they called a meeting for all the Chiefs of Gazakulu at a shopping centre and he told them. Is this bull of the nation still roaring? Some said yes, he’s still roaring and others. We asked them, if he’s still roaring, what shall we do? They said, we have to cut his horns and I asked, if a cow without horns can kill? He said, yes. They said yes, and they said, what do you have to do with it, and I said we should kill that cow. That was the answer. Truly, I think, that day on the 23rd of March 1986, police and camouflage soldiers came to my house. They stayed for a long time outside the gate. I could remember one of them. He was a short policeman and he asked, why are you stopping us at the gate and not allowing us in? Do you know why we’re here? Why are you so afraid? And then later they entered the house. In my house, we had a church and they went into the church temple. They went there. There was a tap and they said they must close the tap, because we don’t want this person around here and you mustn’t do anything and the people said, we didn’t come here to close the tap. Why did you bring us to this place? You said if a cow without horns can kill another one which has horns, then show us that person whom should be killed and he said no, leave that and he fall down on his knees before the temple and they had to carry him out and they left the place.

DR RANDERA: You, can I just take you back to 1985 and the disappearance of these youths that you’re talking about in your statement. What was the, the background to these disappearances and how does that relate to what you’ve been telling us already, and how many youths disappeared?

MR NKWAMBA: Mr Chairperson, I will say it was not young men who disappeared. They were children. I don’t personally know the children. They were children from the Dimbane family. After the children disappeared Dimbane went to police station to meet the station commander, Mr Fourie and Mr Nyati. They gave a statement to these policemen. According to what I’ve heard, these were two children, a boy and a girl. Fourie and Nyati came to me as a leader in that community to give me this or to tell me about this matter. I didn’t want to get deep into the matter and I told them that I’m under a Magistrate, therefore I have to take the matter to the Magistrate, Mr Jordaan. Mr Jordaan came immediately and I gave the matter to him and he wrote me letter telling me that, you have to gather the people and tell them about this story, and I had asked people to a meeting and tell them about the problem about the disappearance of these two children. Because we were told that these two children disappeared within the family of Mrs Mkasi whose house was burned and I think all these things were rumours. When we started investigating the matter, at the meeting, we ask, how did you know that, how did you came to find out that these people were taken by Mrs Mkasi? The people said, we went to a witch, a sangoma and this sangoma came cooked some muti and give to the people to get drunk and these people can see some visions or a bioscope, to call it and these people got the vision that people were taken, these children were taken by Mrs Mkasi. This was not true, because they were given muti which get them drunk and they said speaking nothings which didn’t mean anything. This is what I know about the children.

DR RANDERA: Thank you. The last question. Again from your statement you said that when your property was burning and this was being done by community members, the police stood by at a distance and watched. Now by this do you mean that the police were unable to control the crowds or were the police supportive of the whole situation?

MR NKWAMBA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. You are eloquent and you can ... I hope that whatever I explain will give you a clear picture as to what happened. The police were capable of doing their job. However, if I have to get to the understand, my understanding of the matter is that, after I’ve spoken to Mr Grobbelaar and talked to the Chief Minister and the Chief Minister complained that I was referred to as a Chief Minister. That’s were I have to go back the memory lane and think that’s where the conflict started. It’s not the police who were unable to protect my property. They didn’t fail and they were really capable. The problem, I think, started where I was referred to as a Chief and the Chief Minister was angry about it. From there, I think that’s where the whole matter stated. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

DR RANDERA: Thank you. Joyce!

MS SEROKE: Mr Nkwamba, are you still living in, in this farm Kwagga, or is it still called Kwagga?

MR NKWAMBA: Where I stay, the place is called farm Kwagga which is known as Lulekane to-day. Lulekane is the name of a person. I would say, like Zamusi himself. Zamusi is not his surname. His surname if Maleleke and when he gave the name Lulekane to this place, he was trying to give this place the name of his surname as it’s name. When I arrived to the Kwam Kwagga, we wanted to call it Mala Mala and Chief Minister changed it to Lulekane. I’m still staying there right to-day. To-day, I’m not the Chief. However, the people, they still come and insist that they’re not going to accept anyone as a Chief. The only person that they want, it’s me. Even if the people, other people have to stone Zamusisan as a Chief, people insist that I have to work for the community to do all the things that affects their life. However, it’s so difficult for me to have, to help them. However, it’s not my request. However, people cars still come to me to ask for help. I still even have the documents of people. Thank you.

MR MANTHATA: Mr Nkwamba, did I hear you well that you did apply to the Magistrate to be a Chief ?

MR NKWAMBA: That’s is the truth. As I said, each and every individual has his or her own talent. I deserved to be. There is no one who will go to work for the whole month, to work and only at the end of the month, to get his reward being paid to someone else. I think I’ve worked for the community and I deserved to be a Chief. Before the Chief Minister died, I wrote a letter which I took it to his office to show him and I, I wanted to make it clear to him what kind of a person... is there a person who can work without a reward. Even him, to say the truth, he wasn’t a Chief. He was a lecturer at the University of the North. Allow me that, Mr Chairperson. He wasn’t a Chief but they asked him to come and stand as a Chief Minister to run the country or the homeland. I will say I did work hard for the community, therefore I have to say it and I think there is not any other reward which could be given to me and I have to get myself rewarded somehow.

MR MANTHATA: As you put it that you did a lot for the people, I guess you could have put up schools, you could have put up clinics but one area that is still a problem is the one that you referred to of witchcraft. Where you are saying two children were assumed to have been burnt down in a house. How did you handle that problem?

MR NKWAMBA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. That is true. In connection with schools or clinics. When I arrived at Kwagga Farm, it was just a forest. There wasn’t even water. There was nothing. The Commissioner said there’s nothing we can do about water and other things. I had to work for the community, go buying pipes and install pipe, water pipes and I built a school in that forest. I have to take children to school. I have to take their parents to your work, to Palaborwa Fosco and many other places and if I come back to the issue of the children who disappeared. 

MR MANTHATA: I just wanted to hear your response to the question. The rest we quite appreciate, you know, how much you did for the people.

MR NKWAMBA: Mr Chairperson, can you please repeat your question?

MR MANTHATA: You spoke about two kids. I don’t know if it’s Pauline or Enyati or not. Who got burnt, who have said to have been burnt down in a house and that setup you explained in a manner which suggested, you know some mystics which, it’s just not too clear, where you’re involved, witchcraft and so on. So my question was, what did you do with the problem of witchcraft in that community?

MR NKWAMBA: Firstly, Mr Chairperson, I would like to say, children were not burnt. D, I hope you understand that, Mr Chairpen. No children were burnt. The people said, this old lady, Mrs Ngasi has stolen these children and hidden them inside the house. Mason Dimbane’s wife was, when they got married, she already had the two children and they had to get married and stayed with the children together. If I get it clearly, I didn’t see but I heard that the children were taken by their former or their real parent or father, away. What was burnt was Mrs Ngasi’s house and property and not the children and the reason why it was burning was because they thought she took the children. The children were not burnt. They were taken by the real father and they, to be hidden somewhere. I will say this was the beginning of the politics issue where people started burning other people’s properties. 

&#9;When it comes to witchcraft, I personally didn’t have the right to interfere in work within this field of witchcraft, because the police were the bright people who were dealing with that matter. Mr Chairperson, that’s the reason why I had to go and report the matter to the police, because I didn’t want to be involved in witchcraft issues and the police, as the people who had to maintain law and order, they have to go and investigate and prevent such issues. Thank you.

MR MANTHATA: To understand you clearly Mr Nkwamba. Are we saying that the problems largely between you and Etzwanise and not between you and the central government? That is, not between you and the apartheid government?

MR NKWAMBA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I didn’t have any conflict or problem with the national government, National Party Government. I had a problem with the Chief Minister, Mr Etzwanise. He was my friend, he was a very good friend to me, however, the friendship ended when the Farm Kwagga came into this, into, between us. 

MR MANTHATA: No further questions.

DR ALLY: Thank you, Sir. Thank you for coming to, to speak to us. What is becoming more and more clear to us in the, in the Commission as we work, especially in these areas where there was so many different homeland structures, is the way in which these homeland structures upset and interfered with the traditional structures and with the traditional Chieftanships. One of the jobs that we actually have is to try and, and understand this and present a picture of, of what was actually happening. We are quite fortunate in that we, in, in the audience to-day, we actually have some of the members of government who are advisors to the Premier on some of these traditional matters. This is Mr Tjolo here and we also have Mr Shope who advised the Premier on these issues and we will certainly try and contribute to that process in form of recommendations and in the form of also trying to bring to the attention of the, of the governments, the provincial governments in particular, but national, the national government in general, what we have learnt, our understanding and suggest maybe some recommendations as to how’s these issues can be tackled and, and hopefully some solutions can be found, because we, we, we see in, we see more and more just how these homeland structures divided people and, and, and how often it led to people losing their homes, people losing livestock, people losing businesses and people being impoverished. So, thank you very much for your, for your account. It certainly helps us to understand and will help us in our work and as Dr Randera said, if you have any other documentation which you want to make available to the Commission, please do so either through Zodwa who’s next to you or through any other member of staff of the Commission. Thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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