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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;10TH APRIL 1997&#9;&#9;

NAME:&#9;WILLIAM MATIDZA

CASE:&#9;2019&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;

HELD AT:&#9;TZANEEN

FINAL DAY

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DR ALLY: Will you do that one Joyce ?

DR RANDERA: Mr Matidza, good afternoon. 

MR MATIDZA: Good afternoon. I also greet you.

DR RANDERA: Could you please introduce the young man who is with you.

MR MATIDZA: He’s the young man I’m travelling with.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much. Mr Matidza, in respect of your age, I’m not going to let you stand but can you just repeat after me, the oath. I swear that the story I’m about to tell is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

WILLIAM MATIDZA: (sworn states)

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

MISS SEROKE: Mr Matidza, could you tell us your story.

MR MATIDZA: Yes. Yes, I can.

MISS SEROKE: Please continue.

MR MATIDZA: It was during those previous times. I used to go about with these freedom fighters or the people fighting for freedom. As I was doing that, in that process, I, he was in trouble, because most of the White race of people and some of our fellow people, Blacks, were not interested in what I was doing. 

&#9;It so happened that I was once involved, I was once a victim of arrest. As I was arrested they took me the court. I was really troubled, because in amongst the people, when I was released I was, again I was referred to a cell when I was just alone. They gave me food just as I was there. It was just full of dirt, a smelling room. I discovered that I couldn’t eat the food. 

&#9;The following morning just at the dining hall for porridge and breakfast, I will, I was able to eat better there. As I was there, as I was in the cell I suffered a great deal. So much that, you know, they used to choke me and I fainted. As they were really choking me or electrifying me they were interrogating me. They wanted me to say exactly if at all I was one of the freedom fighters, the so-called terrorists. I responded as follows. I am working hand in hand with them. Well I’ve not been to those so-called terrorists but I’m working hand in hand with them. They asked me if I could tell them, if I tell them who the people are, the ones who used to visit but I told them they were the church people and sometimes they were just ordinary people who come for meetings for freedom fighters. That is where I really incited them and they hated me greatly. 

&#9;However, I sat there up to the time when they released me on, on sixty five rand bail. That’s the bail money. Well, it happened again. Two men came. One of them was Titi Ramabrana and the other one was Jacobus Ramabrana. They were two. They had guns. It was late evening. I was already asleep after I had dinner. They asked from my children, my children said, the old man is asleep. That is when, you know, they went straight to my room and my son followed them. As they approached, they knocked, they knocked several times on the door and I responded as follows, who are you ? And they said, police ? I said, how ? What kind of a police ? Why do you come late in the evening ? Are they cleaning us here ? One, they said, just open, police. Well, I opened happily. I was not feeling any guilty. I just opened slowly, nicely and then I went back to may bed. Oh well, as an innocent person I wasn’t frightened at all. Just then they stood beside my bed. As they were just doing like that, my son was just there. They asked him who he was and then he said, I belong here. They wrote few things and I just don’t know what they were doing and they just commanded and said no, he’s going to the court to-morrow. I said, okay, fine. That is when they left there with those guns they were holding. 

&#9;I went to the court. Well, I was on the witness box. They told me that I was there because there are these so-called terrorists and I said well I don’t know, I cannot even point a finger at where they are. I’m just a member of the so-called freedom fighters organisation but I don’t know who the terrorists are. Then I was referred to the cells. When I was taken to the cells I was beaten severely. They were shocking me with electric... Now there was one thing that really hit me on the back. I don’t know that kind of object. Even my bone here at the back on my left hand-side is still broken and swollen, sort of. I fell down. I was just groaning, you know you can see I’m an elderly person. I even cried. As I’m saying here now, my eyes are really about to shed some tears. 

&#9;However they took me to the cells, right at the cells those police were really assaulting me. I don’t know how to explain this. They were just insisting on finding out who and where were those terrorists. I told them the same thing, that I didn’t know them. I only told them that the people who came to me are some of the people I usually attend meetings with them at the councils. I’m still with them. However, fighting for the freedom, I’m still fighting for the freedom. Undoubtedly so. That’s when they said, they were to, say the following morning I’ll be meeting a White man who seemingly was in charge of the police station. As I was in the witness box he said to me, please leave the old man, leave, go for home. Then I left. Well I was so guilty, because I was not given a chance to say whatever they were worried of. 

&#9;I left, I left for home. They sent a van, a big van. You know they just took all the people who were at home. They were about seven women and I was the eighth person, including those who were visiting. Just there I was referred to the cells and I was asked to tell them exactly where the terrorists were and I told them, I didn’t know anything and they said, please be careful. You must really realise that you are you said something bad about the police. Since those people were very innocent, they just agreed and they got a fine of sixty five rand. Just then, when we had been fined, I was the only one who was left, they ran home and fetched the money. We don’t even know where this money was taken to. No one knows exactly what happened with reference to this money. No, but they just signed. The people who were at the local police station didn’t want to sign. We stayed there for some time, until some few police guys came. I know of one who, that was Jacobus Ramabrana. They were just assaulting us, beating us again and just shouting abusive words. We didn’t want to be evicted. Now they arrested me alone. He just wanted to finish me off with a gun. He shot, using his gun and then it fell on, on my leg and he said, no I was just releasing my gun. Please be careful. I just kept quiet. 

&#9;So we left. I was just going there to explain the same severe torture with, you know, the materials that they were using, shocking materials and I just fell again and I was unconscious. During the course of the matter, I had to come back, so I was told that my property was going to be taken. My fields and again I had fertilised my fields and somebody was given that field of mine. Even my wife’s field was taken. It was given to somebody else. During that time we were just left with a very little orchard at home. That is the one we only depended on. That is when it was discovered that they were saying I had to leave, I had to be evicted. Since I was born there, I said, okay fine, I’ve got, I’ve got twelve huts and I also have my trees. If ever I realise that you are going to build some twelve huts in whichever place you are taking me, that’s fine. However, I need compensation about my trees. That is where they failed to really evict me. 

&#9;So, again I suffered some difficulties, because I was said to be or alleged to be the one who organising these VIP’s. It was a terrible thing altogether. I was tortured. However, there was this VIP and the National Party. Then I was organizing for the VIP, because it was a Progressive Party so that they should get some freedom. Some kind of freedom. Just there it was a difficult thing for them, even up to now, the current moment. They, just because it’s a new democratic government they look at me as a very good person. I’ve, I know my enemies look at me indifferently. They wish me dead. That’s over. 

MISS SEROKE: According to your statement here Ndade Matidza you were born in 1903. Am I correct to assume that you ... (interrupted) ?

MR MATIDZA: I was born in 1899, 1895.

MISS SEROKE: 1895 ?

MR MATIDZA: 18, in 1895. I was born in 1895.

MISS SEROKE: So, you probably are -. How old are you now ? About ... (interrupted) 100 and a 102 ?

MR MATIDZA: Yes, 102.

MISS SEROKE: In 1984 when you went through all these problems you were about, you were in your 90’s.

MR MATIDZA: Well, I just didn’t calculate that. I only know when I was born.

MISS SEROKE: So you must have been in your 90’s when you went through this. I must say, you are a very strong man and it’s amazing at that age you should have been a threat to the then government. Okay, now you according to your statement you were arrested three times?

MR MATIDZA: Truly, yes.

MISS SEROKE: They came to fetch you and you were released ... (interrupted)

MR MATIDZA: Truly.

MISS SEROKE: And then they came to fetch you and then the third time. 

MR MATIDZA: Truly.

MISS SEROKE: What was your political affiliation at that time ?

MR MATIDZA: I belong to the Progressive - the one where Madiba is. Mandela is. I mean initially.

MISS SEROKE: So, that is the ANC. Am I correct ?

MR MATIDZA: Well, it was not that officially recognised as an ANC, we just knew it as a Progressive Government, I mean Party.

MISS SEROKE: And the third time you were arrested, you say that Chief Ramabulani harassed you because you voted for the VIP party. What did you have against this VIP party ?

MR MATIDZA: Well, I was the organiser of the VIP.

MISS SEROKE: Let me correct myself. You were a member of the VIP party. What did you have against the Ramabrana’s party ? The national party ?

MR MATIDZA: Well, we have suffered a lot, because those people were mixed with Whites or boers.

MISS SEROKE: And if they were mixed with White and boers, what is it that they did that you thought was wrong?

MR MATIDZA: They used to really give us problems. No they just arrested us, assaulting us. No, there was nothing very good. No, there was no money. Now it’s, it’s better, because we get some few bucks.

MISS SEROKE: Where you in favour of the Venda Homeland ? Government ?

MR MATIDZA: No, because they used to torture us. They were troublesome.

MISS SEROKE: Did they finally evict you from your place, or are you still remaining there ?

MR MATIDZA: I was never evicted. I just said to myself, let them kill me.

MISS SEROKE: No further questions.

DR RANDERA: Tate, you have said a number of times when you, in the arrest that took place and you were tortured, they were asking you about the help that you were giving to so-called terrorists. Were you actually assisting these so-called terrorists and what were you doing if you were ?

MR MATIDZA: Well, regarding the so-called terrorists, no, they were not really terrorists. They are just, they were just ordinary people who were really helping in organising inasfar as the freedom was concerned. To attain freedom.

DR RANDERA: Okay, I understand you. Thank you.

DR ALLY: Tata, thank you. Thank you very much. As my fellow colleague has already indicated you have lived through so much and you have survived so much and I think it must be, for you it must be a real personal triumph to know that you outlived all of these systems which attempted to oppress and repress you. You outlived the apartheid system; you outlived the homelands system and you are now able to live in this new democracy and that must be a real tribute and you must feel personally vindicated that throughout all of these years, you remain true to this belief of yours and people, the rights of people, the need for people to enjoy democracy and not to have governments forced on them which they did not agree with. 

&#9;Thanks for coming and for sharing with us and we will certainly be getting in touch with you regard to your particular case, your torture and the gross human rights violation which you personally suffered. Thank you very much.

MR MATIDZA: Thank you very much, too. Sorry, sorry, he was still asking something.

DR ALLY: Yes Dada ?

MR MATIDZA: What about the compensation about the fields that I lost, what about that? Is there anything that can be done about that? Well, the torture and all those things that I experienced ?

DR ALLY: As we have said to all the other people who have come forward, there is a Committee which is known as the Committee on Reparations and Rehabilitation and it is this Committee that is going to make recommendations to the President and to Parliament and it is through the recommendations of this Committee that a policy will be put into place to assist those who have suffered gross human rights violations. Unfortunately however, this will come at the end of the work of the Commission, because we have to listen to all cases and have to hear from all the witnesses, all victims before we know what exactly it is that the government needs to do in regard to, with regard to things that have happened to people. So we will just ask you to please be a little bit patient but if there are urgent issues with regard to your health that you need urgent, that needs urgent attention, then you can communicate that to our, to our staff, to our briefers, because there is an urgent interim relief policy for those kinds of cases but in terms of the long term reparation that will come at the end of the life of the Commission. So thank you again.

MR MATIDZA: However, I’m not of that good health when I’m here. I think I’m, I’m not, these people really tortured me, they assaulted me. I think my health is not that good.

DR ALLY: For that reason I’m going to ask that our briefers who are here with us to-day they will speak to you now and I’m sure that they will be able to assist you in getting medical attention or directing you to a place where you can get this medical attention for your health. So as soon as you leave the stage I’m sure that our briefers, Zodwa and also Fikele will to assist you, but thank you very much.

MR MATIDZA: Thank you very much too. 

 

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