


FIFTH SESSION /
SECOND SITTING		:	NORMAL	:	19, 20 AND 21 MAY 1998
								



								

	VOLUME 3 / 
	1998







SPINE:	VOLUME 3 1998
















HANS\COV398
	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	SECOND SITTING - FIFTH SITTING DAY
	TUESDAY, 19 MAY 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 10:45 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.
THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

I have no announcements to make.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER

The hon Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Hon members, I would like to join the President of South Africa, President Nelson Mandela, on behalf of the people of KwaZulu-Natal in wishing the Bafana Bafana well on their trip, and say God speed on their way to the World Cup Soccer Tournament in France.  We, in KwaZulu-Natal, know that they carry the hopes and aspirations of all the people of KwaZulu-Natal.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER:  I certainly admire my President and I love him.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

AN HON MEMBER:  You will still join him.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Order please.  Let the Premier carry on.

THE PREMIER:  Secondly, Mr Speaker, I wish to congratulate the South African Institute of Inventions on their success at the World Invention and New Product Show in Pennsylvania in the United States.  South African inventors competed against 35 countries, including Russia, Romania, China and Taiwan.  They won seven awards, and their stand was praised as being the best exhibition.  I hope that the Minister of Science and Technology is going to promote science and technology in schools, as well as with the public, because we want to see more South African inventors emerging.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

The hon Minister of Transport.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Mr Speaker, may I table the annual report of the Department of Transport.

THE SPEAKER:  Do so please, Mr Minister.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  And may I ask that it be distributed to members.

THE SPEAKER:  Any other reports?  None.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

Mr Meer please.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, I will be moving the following motion tomorrow.

		This Legislature of KwaZulu-Natal noting that the year 1998 has been declared the LUTHULI CENTENARY YEAR; and further noting the important role of Chief Albert John Luthuli in laying the firm foundation of a non-racial democracy in South Africa.  

		(a)	Congratulates the KwaDukuza Local Authority for conferring freedom of the city on our founding father of non-racialism and democracy;

		(b)	Appeals to all local authorities in the Province to observe appropriately the LUTHULI CENTENARY YEAR by all such measures that proudly perpetuate the name of this ARCHITECT OF DEMOCRACY;

		(c)	Records that in 1951 when Chief Luthuli became the President of ANC Natal and in 1952 President-General of the National ANC, he united all the disadvantaged and democrats under him.  That such unity then produced in 1955 the FREEDOM CHARTER.  Such unity was vital then, and is vital in this period of transition.  We support fully the call for peace and unity now as our important Luthuli heritage.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Meer.  I said I had no announcements, but I think I should make this announcement at this juncture.

I am distributing brochures for the Opera Africa.  People who are interested in teaching opera music, whatever that means, to the people at large.  I have asked the people to distribute these brochures, because there are dates of the performance which some of us might be interested in.  I think I should make that known to the people here.  I should have made that announcement earlier on.  I hope that will not harm anybody.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Speaker, I wish to give notice that at the next sitting of this House I shall move:

		Noting:

		1.	That land bordered by Noodsberg, Royston Road and Ohrtmann Road in the former "Indian Group Areas" of Mountain Rise, (Pietermaritzburg) created by the National Party, is housing an informal settlement; and

		2.	that the Departments of Local Government and Housing have dragged their feet to find a solution acceptable to both the formal and informal communities of Mountain Rise.

		Believing:

		1.	That if the growth of the informal sector remains unchecked, it will, if it has not already, develop into a health hazard affecting all residents of the areas; and

		2.	that the continuing delay in resolving the problem may result in conflict and the departments would incur huge unbearable costs, both material and human.

		This House accordingly resolves:

		1.	That the Ministers of Local Government and Housing immediately implement a pro-active strategy to resolve the problem, the solution aimed at satisfying the needs of both the formal and informal communities as affected in the Mountain Rise area.

		2.	that both the Departments of Local Government and Housing address the status of all informal settlements that currently occupy Provincial land with the explicit intention of improving their quality of life.

Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The House will now resolve itself into the Committee of Supply.  I now leave the chair.  The Chairperson for Committees will now take over.

MRS F X GASA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  We have made an arrangement.  Mr Dlamini is going to take over and then I will carry the day through.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  I do not have the ears of the hon Chairperson of Committees.  If the Chairperson of Committees will repeat herself, it will not do anybody any harm.

MRS F X GASA:  Chair, we have made arrangements, because my deputy will be debating.  Now as per order of the House, he cannot take the chair.  Mr Dlamini is going to take over and then I will carry the day through after a few speakers.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Chairperson of Committees.

MRS F X GASA:  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  That is your problem really, not mine.  Thank you.  House will rise.

THE HOUSE RESOLVES INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE.
MR F DLAMINI THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES TAKES THE CHAIR

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1998.

VOTE 3 - THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are to commence with vote 3, that is Agriculture.  It is now my pleasure to call upon the Minister of Agriculture, Mr Singh, to take the floor.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, hon members of the House, I would like to start off this particular debate by referring to the report that was tabled by the Finance Portfolio Committee.

In their report, in the one paragraph, they wrote about the unauthorised overspending of R56,579 million by the Department of Agriculture, but in the very next paragraph of the same report they wrote about the "apparent" unauthorised expenditure.  I wish that the hon Chairman of that Committee, and the members would make up their minds whether it is "unauthorised" or "apparently unauthorised".  I trust that we will be able to correct that when the report is finally tabled before this House in a few weeks time.

I would like to offer an explanation to the House on this particular matter.  I wish to indicate that Treasury at no stage said that there were any conditions attached to the rolling over of funds to 1997/1998.

Mr Chairman, colleagues, the funds that are referred to were earmarked funds, and "earmarked funds" are funds that are passed on from the National Department, and in this case it was the National Department of Agriculture, with the concurrence of the National Department of State Expenditure to our KwaZulu-Natal Department of Agriculture.  We were to have used these funds to provide drought relief to people that had suffered from the ravages of drought in the 1995/1996 financial year.  Subsequently, when the drought turned to flood, the Department applied for permission from the National Department of Agriculture and the National Department of State Expenditure to utilise these funds for flood relief.

We only received authority from the National Department of State Expenditure on 14 January 1997.  We had communicated with Treasury in this regard, and Treasury had advised us that roll-overs could be requested at the end of the financial year.

To plan and implement the flood assistance criteria took 11 months, and my Department, with only two and a half months remaining of the financial year, had to request for a roll-over.

In my Budget Speech of last year, I clearly mentioned and explained the above and no objections were raised by this House.  I, however, want to inform the House that due to the timeously pro-active approach of the Department, the reconstruction programme has ensured that most of the cane grown in the affected areas had been harvested and milled in the 1997/1998 season.  The immediate benefits to the small cane growers have been very significant as it is estimated that some 1,4 million tons of cane has been hauled over the adversely affected routes.  The total gross value of this sugar cane to the small growers in particular, in the 1997/1998 season is in excess of R160 million.  My Department, I must add, Mr Chairman, received a letter from the Cane Growers Association thanking them for the pro-active steps taken.

It is pertinent that I draw the attention of the House to the fact that the Department remained conscious of this "earmarked" (column 2) amount in meeting the flood disaster needs of the farmers and showed a saving on the 1996/1997 budget of R62,618 million.

Treasury had informed us, late in the 1997/1998 year, that they acknowledge that funds were allocated to the Department during previous financial years, and I would like the House to take note of this, the reason for the non roll-over, "and due to the financial position of the Province, Treasury was not in a position to entertain any roll-overs from 1996/1997 to 1997/1998 financial year".  Due to the financial position of the Province.

Now, Mr Chairman, it would have been criminal for us as a Provincial Department of Agriculture not to have used funds that were "earmarked", and that were given to us from the National Department of Agriculture for a specific purpose.  I want to assure this House that the funds were used for the purpose for which it was intended.  Technically it may be regarded as unauthorised, and I am hoping that if this matter gets reported by the Auditor-General as unauthorised, the House would give ex post facto authorisation to the spending of these funds, which were not part of the Provincial kitty.

The Annual Report of my Department was tabled in this House on 18 March 1998, and if members have forgotten what it looks like, this is what it looks like.  It provides full details on the activities of my Department.  Thus, in this Budget Speech I will highlight only some of the aspects of the past year, and will focus particularly on the proposals for the coming year, without losing sight of the goals and objectives set out in the White Paper.

One has to ask the question:  where has the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Agriculture come from?  For my Department, Mr Chairman and colleagues, the past year started as one of getting to know each other; of continued consolidation; of strategy refinement and implementation; and of commitment to improved service delivery to ensure the attainment of our departmental goals and objectives.

On my tours through the Regions to meet the staff, and to familiarise myself with the departmental activities, I was impressed by their achievements under difficult conditions.  This familiarisation exercise climaxed towards the end of last year when, within the ongoing programme of Good Governance to which my Department is committed, I met with the senior staff to workshop all aspects of improved service delivery.

We already had in place an Internal Audit, in terms of which we, in conjunction with the Auditor-General and a firm of chartered accountants, have formed a tri-partite agreement to develop within our Department an internal audit capacity, inclusive of performance auditing.  But even this, we felt, was insufficient and we wanted to go further than that.

To this end, we are developing the formulation of criteria to recognise "excellence in agriculture", an inter-regional competition; and the development of standards and norms for monitoring, measuring and evaluating service delivery within the Department.  Further, we believe that it is only the farmers, themselves, who can accurately assess the service delivery of our staff.

Mr Chairman, also included in the report of the Finance Committee under Agriculture, "MEC to report on proposals to increase domestic vegetable production, and extension, and advisory services".  I was given a date 31 July 1997.  The Finance Committee reported, "not done".

In the first instance, I would like to know whether it is to the Agriculture Portfolio Committee that I should have reported to on these matters, on how to increase domestic vegetable production and extension services, or to the Finance Committee.  But notwithstanding that, may I remind this House that on 12 May 1997, after this report was published by the Finance Committee, I addressed this House during my budget speech and referred to all the matters that they would have liked me to refer to in this particular House.  We had a thorough debate in this House, and if I can recall quite correctly, my budget was accepted unanimously by this House, and the proposals that I had put forward last year were also unanimously accepted by the House.  So I sometimes like to think that it is mischief-making when it is reported that I have not done what I should have done.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  These initiatives that we embarked upon will prove very valuable, especially now when the staff will have to tailor their suit according to the cloth.  We were called upon to reformulate our actions to ensure a continued high standard of service delivery even within the curtailed budget allocated to my Department.

The latter portion of the year has not been easy.  In fact, as all in this House are well aware, it has been extremely difficult at times.  Nonetheless, I have been impressed by the insight, vision, and dedicated commitment of my departmental staff.  They have approached the budgetary cutbacks as challenges to be overcome, rather than obstacles that will hinder progress and impede the attainment of goals.

Where are we going as a Department, DESPITE the operational budget cut of 54% for this financial year?  In view of the budgetary cuts which reduced our total budget by 29%, and effectively reduced our operational budget by 54%, my Department and I have had to examine all the functions and services and, in a series of strategic planning exercises, have made the necessary decisions and/or recommendations on how to proceed to ensure optimal service delivery.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  I would like the protection of the chair, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  I think the hon member will have an opportunity to participate in the debate if he wants to.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order please.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Mr Chairman, in these exercises, the guiding principle was to reprioritise all activities and projects to focus primarily on food security.  It is recognised that in the interests of efficiency and cost effectivity, some staff would have to be redeployed to maintain productivity.  It was accepted that in this exercise, all projects must be outcome-based.

Here we take a lead from what our hon Premier had indicated to us in Cabinet, when he was the Minister of Finance, that whatever expenditure we incur as departments, it must achieve some outcome, and we are following that very, very closely.

The focus in the Department had already shifted from pure research to adaptive research, and the challenge is for scientific staff to become highly pro-active in ensuring that all their research will benefit the wide cross-section of our client base.  For example, by means of cost efficient desk-top studies, to re-assess all previous research results to ensure that they are relevant to the situations that prevail in the developing areas, and to adapt them where necessary.

In reprioritising the departmental activities, it has been necessary either to curtail, scale-down, or continue the services previously provided by my Department.  Where curtailments are essential, it is intended to effect these in ways that would encourage communities, or for individuals, to develop sustainable enterprises to replace these activities.  In this regard mention is to be made of the fact that a Task Team comprising of members of the Agriculture Portfolio Committee and my Department, has been appointed to investigate the provision of tractor-ploughing services to farmers and will provide me with their findings and recommended action for consideration.  Such enterprises, I believe, would have the potential to become attractive small, medium or micro enterprises, (SMMEs) as they are commonly referred to, and in time, could grow into substantial concerns.  We suggest that these enterprises could be run along the lines that the user pays for those services that he deems to be necessary for the profitable conduct of his farming enterprise.

Mr Chairman, I am sure you will find it interesting that, even prior to the budget cuts, I was already investigating those activities that could be seen to be in conflict with either private enterprise or progress towards a fully responsible agriculture in which it is recognised that the farmers have the undeniable right to make vital decisions and to choose the way in which they conduct their farming operations.

I have discussed this approach with the Agricultural Portfolio Committee, of which the hon Mr MacKenzie is the chair, and I was reassured by their acceptance of the proposals that my staff and I put forward, in respect of the phasing out of the services concerned.  For example, my Department is embarking on a process that involves private sector firms to establish Service Centres, in which the farmers can be co-partners, to provide these services, as well as agricultural production inputs at realistic prices, and packaged to suit local needs.  This will mean that within the community there would develop a group of agri-business contractors who will be supplying these services on a sustainable basis.  I await the proposal of the Sub-committee of the Portfolio Committee that was tasked to investigate this matter.  I have been reassured by the hon Mr Nel this morning, who is a member of the subcommittee, that they will soon table their recommendations.

Another area where curtailment requires urgent attention is the continued provision of a free dipping service.  In terms of the Animal Diseases Act, Act 35 of 1984, the State is no longer required to provide either dipping services, or the facilities required to dip cattle.  This places the sole responsibility for animal health directly on the owner of the animals.  At present, the cattle dipping activities undertaken by the Department costs more than R20 million per annum, of which salaries account for some R13 million.

In an attempt to resolve this situation, and to find an acceptable way forward on dipping services, a specially appointed Sub-committee of the Agriculture Portfolio Committee met with officers of the Veterinary Service of my Department, and intend meeting with the House of Traditional Leaders in the very near future, to consider the long term solutions.  The reason for meeting with the House of Traditional Leaders is that these services are essentially being done in the tribal areas.  We eagerly await the findings of this committee so that we can objectively review this matter.

However, I wish to place on record, Mr Chairman, that my Department will continue to provide the technical and professional services of its veterinarians and technicians.  May I add that the Sub-committee has presented a report to me in which they have requested that I make an appeal to the Minister of Finance in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal for an additional R9 million so that we can continue with the services for at least this year whilst we work on a phased in process.  I am hoping to take that particular proposal to the Minister of Finance, but knowing full well that the Province at large has budgetary constraints, I am hoping that we can still, as a Sub-committee and as a Portfolio Committee on Agriculture come up with more creative solutions to this problem.

SPONSORSHIPS AND PARTNERSHIPS WITH THE PRIVATE SECTOR

Mr Chairman, among the other alternatives that we have identified is the possibility of forging private sector partnerships to fund co-operative rural development projects, and that of seeking sponsorships for specific projects.  While acknowledging that these tasks might be better suited to the highly specialised skills of professional fund-raisers, my Department and I have rallied to the challenge, and have already engaged in very promising negotiations with the private sector.

As many of you will already know, last night I referred to the establishment of the Agricultural Development Trust which we see as a channel to enable the private sector to invest in, or donate money to, agricultural rural development projects, confident in the knowledge that their investments will be used for the purpose for which it was intended.  In envisaging the Trust, and in developing the blue print of my Department, I have been greatly assisted and encouraged by the Billiton Trust, to whom I wish to record our thanks.

On the issue of dipping, Mr Chairman, I also wish to indicate that cattle are very important to the rural community, and especially to rural economy.  Therefore it is incumbent upon all of us to collectively find creative solutions so that we do not have to let the axe fall on the continued provision of dipping services in those areas.

I would also like to acknowledge the generous investment in the agricultural development projects of this Province by South African Breweries.  In particular they, and the Singer Company, have contributed very generously to the projects to assist the development of women's sewing clubs.

My Department has also been in contact with ABSA Bank in connection with the potential of their African Growth Network to achieve macro-transformation through satellite communication.  This is but one example of the ways in which my Department is endeavouring to establish linkages and partnerships with the private sector.  While the application of this concept is undeniably costly, too costly for a single department to incorporate under the existing financial constraints, it could hold promise as a shared, inter-departmental project at Provincial level.  This is something that we need to examine very carefully and closely.

FOREIGN REPRESENTATIVES' TOUR

Mr Chairman, we have as a Department and as a Ministry arranged a foreign representatives' tour.  Both the Billiton Trust and South African Breweries are deeply involved in my Department's programme to take members of the Diplomatic Corps on a Mobile Conference during which they will be given "a glimpse of rural KwaZulu-Natal", and they will be shown opportunities that exist for investment in agricultural rural development projects.  A particularly interesting aspect of this project, in which we have been much encouraged by the support of the hon Premier, is the co-operation we have enjoyed with both the KwaZulu-Natal Conservation Service and Tourism KwaZulu-Natal.  I see their participation as essential in promoting the complex totality of agriculture, agro-tourism, and eco-tourism which, together with conventional natural resource conservation, constitute integrated rural development.  As we all know, it is this complex area that holds the greatest promise for job creation in this Province.

I have been greatly encouraged by the response of the Diplomatic Corps for, up to yesterday, 15 countries have responded positively to join us on this tour, and that also includes the FAO representative.

This tour takes place early in June and, as I indicated, is well supported by members of the Diplomatic Corps.  This tour will also serve to reinforce the international linkages already forged during the recent visits to my Ministry by the British Minister of Agriculture, Dr Jack Cunningham, the High Commissioner of New Zealand, representatives of the Israeli Embassy, the Indian Consulate-General, and the Indian High Commissioner.

TRAINING

My Department and I share a common commitment that recognises the critical importance of agricultural training at all levels, and in all forms.  Our two agricultural colleges, the Owen Sithole College of Agriculture near Empangeni, and Cedara College of Agriculture, near Pietermaritzburg, continue to fulfil an important role in providing formal agricultural training.

That SABETA (the South African Board of Education and Training), held its annual conference at Cedara in 1997, is an indication of the esteem in which our colleges are held by the organised fraternity of education and training.

In accordance with our departmental policies, as set out in the White Paper on Agriculture, the training of small-scale and commercial farmers, agricultural advisers, and our own departmental staff is a top priority.  During 1997, we presented a total of 79 courses, attended by some 1 300 participants.  In addition, at the Makhathini Training Centre, training had been provided in dryland cotton production and vegetable production for some 1 000 farmers.  The Department has continued to facilitate the year-long practical training for 15 students from the Mangosuthu Technikon.

We are also providing literacy training for staff of my Department who lack these skills, and hope to see our first class of 68 participants complete their two year course of studies later this year.  A point of particular merit has been that members of our own Department have acted as tutors for these modules.  The literacy classes will continue to be offered as long as the need exists.

Bursaries were allocated to an amount of R947 717.  An amount of R229 445 was allocated to assist 114 serving officers of my Department to improve their capabilities, and an amount of R718 272 was allocated for the fulltime studies of 63 trainees who will join the Department on the completion of their studies.

RATIONALISATION

With regard to rationalisation of the Department.  As the rationalisation process progressed, and after 322 posts were transferred to the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry for the devolution of the function of providing water for human consumption, the Department has been left with 5 595 approved posts, including the management echelon.  In terms of the Cabinet Resolution 93 of 1997, the Department has set out a framework for the delivery of an optimal service to the agricultural community within the Regional Council areas.  This will involve:

-	making the Directorates autonomous and accountable, while operating under delegated powers; and
-	will also allow the restructuring of Head Office into a small policy formulation, management support and overall control component.

The nett result will be a reduction of 661 posts, and it is expected that a further 250 posts can be abolished.  This is in line with the decision taken by Management to reduce the establishment by 15% over a period of three years.

CONTACT WITH ORGANISED AGRICULTURE AND AGRI-BUSINESS

My Department and I continue to maintain and enjoy a strong working relationship with the broad cross-section of Organised Agriculture and Agri-business within the Province.  This provides us with yet another mechanism for maintaining the close contact that is essential for us to meet the service delivery needs of our clients.

DISCRETIONARY FUND ALLOCATED TO BENEFIT WOMEN'S CLUBS AND THE DISABLED

I would now like to refer to the Discretionary Fund which was allocated to benefit women's clubs and the disabled.  In considering the disbursement of the Discretionary Fund, I received many applications for assistance, beyond that normally provided by this Department.  After a careful selection process, we identified three projects that would have maximum benefits to a wide cross-section of the community.

The successful role of the women's clubs in advancing rural development impressed me on my visits.  When these clubs were asked to prioritise the needs of women in the outlying areas, they identified immediately a need for skills development leading to job creation and employment opportunities.  A specific request, in this regard, was for sewing machines.

We have therefore allocated an amount of R100 000 towards the purchase of sewing machines to assist carefully selected sewing clubs of all race groups.  I believe that this will add impetus to the type of project currently being assisted by the Department itself.  The Home Economics officers of the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Agriculture, will provide training in the use of the sewing machines.  Examples of the type of items that could be made, and for which there would be a ready market, include sheets, pillowcases, overalls, hospital gowns, and uniforms.  The potential market for such home industries is vast, and programmes are underway to investigate and develop these markets, and also to develop the capacity to exploit such markets.

Mr Chairman, although agriculture is usually thought of in the context of the more rural areas, my Department and I are deeply aware of the need to promote the concept, and the practice, of "urban agriculture", and where possible, to encourage communities to become self-sufficient.  To give practical support to "urban agriculture", we have decided to assist the Cheshire Homes for the Disabled in their drive to empower disabled people.  An amount of R50 000 has been allocated, jointly, to the horticultural projects at the Chatsworth and Merewent Cheshire Homes.

The project at the Chatsworth Home involves the development of a tunnel garden which has been specially designed to facilitate access by those in wheelchairs.  Crops such as cucumbers, brinjals, tomatoes, and peppers will be grown under plastic using an advanced system of hydroponics and a fertigation system.  The Merewent project will be based in a shade cloth-covered steel structure within which the gardeners will produce vegetables, first, to meet the needs of the home, and then the surplus produce will be sold.  The vegetables will be produced on specially elevated tables which will facilitate access by the disabled gardeners.  It is intended that both these projects will be profitable and will generate income which can be directed towards bridging the gap caused by the curtailment of subsidies to these organisations.

Those colleagues that were present last night at the launch of the ~Xoshindlala~ Campaign would have seen some of these beneficiaries in their wheelchairs receive their cheque from the hon Premier.

EL NINO

A year ago, the presence of the El Nino phenomenon, was correctly predicted. It is characterised by abnormal weather patterns over a period of one to two years, more usually in the form of drought.  I believe, we have been extremely fortunate that these patterns have not materialised over this Province, but have been experienced elsewhere in the Republic.  While much of the Province enjoyed normal to good rainfall, there are parts where the rainfall has been very patchy.  In general, crop yields are expected to be average, but the high incidence of cloudy conditions has depressed yields in some areas.

Since we are still, I believe, experiencing the El Nino phenomenon, unsettled weather patterns are likely to persist.

POUNDS BILL

The consolidated Pounds Bill was brought to finalisation by the Agriculture Portfolio Committee and the various amendments were made jointly by legal personnel of the Department and the Legislature.

Following the approval of the Bill by the Agriculture Portfolio Committee, it was subsequently gazetted and the Portfolio Committee arranged for public hearings to be held.  It became apparent that further amendments were needed.  It also transpired that, according to Schedule 5 of the Constitution, competency for pounds is listed as a social function, and thus falls under the auspices of Local Government.

The Minister of Local Government and I held talks concerning this matter.  On 4 March 1998 Cabinet passed Resolution No 98 where it was resolved that:

		The function of establishing and operating pounds now be assigned to the Department of Local Government and Housing and that the Consolidated Pounds Bill now be piloted through the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature.


ALLOCATION OF STATE LAND

Mr Chairman, if there is something that could have contributed towards more land for previously disadvantaged farmers in the short term, it is the thousands of hectares of vacant Agricultural State land.

Last year I reported with joy in this House, that the National Department of Agriculture, which was delegated with a Power of Attorney to dispose of State agricultural land situated in the various provinces, was in the process of preparing a document which would have resulted in these powers being delegated to provincial departments of agriculture.

We eagerly awaited that particular Power of Attorney, Mr Chairman, but after nine drafts having been completed on the Power of Attorney, and after we were at the point where we would have received Power of Attorney to dispose of the State land to beneficiaries, it is with regret that I now have to report that this process was first stalled for many months and the Power of Attorney was, in fact, recently withdrawn from the National Department of Agriculture by the National Department of Land Affairs.  As a result, the settlement of emerging farmers on a continuum of farm sizes as envisaged by the previous provincial role-players, including my Department, could therefore not be implemented and no State Land was thus disposed of to the many potential and urgently waiting emerging farmers.

My staff has contributed, and will continue to contribute to the Joint Project Planning Committees with a view to settle farmers and farming communities.  This includes the determination of agricultural feasibility, the planning of farms with regard to farming enterprises and the infrastructure necessary to enable the new entrant farmers to practice farming effectively.  Special support will be needed by these farmers and the Department will play its part in full.  We have completed a broad-based business plan for the settlement of new-entrant farmers on vacant agricultural land in all areas, and have completed specific and detailed plans for areas such as Impendle and Mjindi.  Specific and detailed plans for other areas are in progress.

We now await the green light to implement these projects since, the power to dispose of State Land, as I said earlier still rests with the Department of Land Affairs nationally.

What is important, and what I would like the House to take note of, is that our emerging farmers have patiently waited since 27 April 1994 for the disposal of State Land by transfer in ownership to the new-entrant farmers.  In my day to day dealings with aspirant farmers it has become increasingly clear to me that they are running out of patience.  It is my sincere wish that we can conclude this matter as soon as possible.  I would like the support of the entire House when this matter is brought before us.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  I believe we need to get on with the job and stop fooling around with Powers of Attorney being given, then taken away and then a national department decides that this power should reside with them.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  

RURAL SECURITY

I am torn, at once, by a feeling of great sympathy for the families and friends of those who have suffered the outrage of rural violence.  I am devastated that such unbridled lawlessness is rife in our beloved Province.  Our rural families, I believe, Mr Chairman, have an inalienable right to safety and security.  We cannot permit these assaults, attacks and murders to continue.  I appeal to all the citizens of KwaZulu-Natal to demand a return to decent standards.  It is not sufficient that we point fingers at the already beleaguered South African Police Services, and expect that they, alone, must solve the problem.  Each and every one of us has a role to play.  To this end, I am not advocating a vigilante type approach, but I am appealing for each person to play a meaningful part in reforming the rural society of KwaZulu-Natal.

In my official capacity, as Minister of Agriculture for KwaZulu-Natal, I will continue to play my part in an effort to curb these brutal attacks on the farmers and rural families of this Province.  One such initiative was to facilitate the formation of a committee on Rural Security consisting of both the Agricultural and the Safety and Security Portfolio Committees, KwaNalu, and the Security Services.  This particular portfolio committee or subcommittee is chaired by the hon Mr MacKenzie, and I am sure he will give the House a briefing on how far they have progressed with regard to finding acceptable solutions.

COLLEGE RULES

As a result of concern having been expressed over some of the academic and non-academic rules of our agricultural colleges, the full set of rules was reviewed by my staff and the students during October 1997.  It was pleasing to note that there were many rules on which all parties agreed.  Where there had been disagreement over certain rules, and where, even after discussion, consensus still could not be reached, the rules were submitted to an Arbitration Committee which I appointed.  This Committee met with the students of both Colleges during February 1998, and last month, they submitted their findings and report to me.

It is hoped that in the very near future we will have an improved set of rules, produced as a result of a fully consultative process, and to which all concerned will subscribe.

~XOSHINDLALA~ LAUNCH

I am very pleased to be able to announce, formally, to this House that, last night I launched a bold new initiative of my Department.  I know that the Cabinet, and all parliamentarians were invited to attend the launch, but for the sake of completeness of my Budget Speech, and because I believe this item to be seminal to the future of effective, integrated and rural development in this Province, I will summarise the salient features.  I also believe that this could not have come at a better time, Mr Chairman, hon colleagues, in view of the national survey on poverty which is being undertaken and which underlines the need for poverty to be eradicated at all levels.

As I have already mentioned, my Department sees as its top priority that amalgam of actions which, together, will enable this Province to enhance food security for all its people.  Within the Department, we have called this programme ~Xoshindlala~, or translated, "Chase Away Hunger" Campaign.

This Campaign is aimed at relieving the most basic of human needs, namely hunger.  The Campaign has seven Focus Areas which are:

*	Home Food Security
*	Sustainable Land Use
*	Effective Support Services
*	Income Generating Projects
*	Youth in Agriculture
*	Marketing
*	An Awareness Programme

These Focus Areas should not be seen as independent and separate programmes, but must be considered as constituting one integrated programme which, to be fully successful, will depend on the effective co-ordination, development and management of all the constituent Focus Areas.

Linking these integrated initiatives in public/private/community partnerships with investment and donor funding, through the vehicle of the Agriculture Development Trust, I believe will unlock the vast under-utilised agricultural potential of this Province.  We hope that this will result in food security and a better quality of life for all the people of KwaZulu-Natal by the year 2020.

In the process of developing this Campaign, it has been very reassuring to find that all our core actions form an interlocking whole which will enable the Province to pursue the challenging goal of chasing away hunger.  In fact, the finalisation of the Campaign could not have been better timed for it gave us the absolute standard by means of which we could determine, without fear of contradiction or criticism, how to reprioritise our activities in terms of the budget cut.

To ensure widespread acceptance of this Campaign, my Department will be presenting the principles of the ~Xoshindlala~ Campaign to all its staff.  I will be adding my support to this exercise which will ensure that every officer, within the Department, is fully acquainted with the specific targets that the Department will be addressing in future.

I find it particularly interesting that by focusing our energies on the ~Xoshindlala~ Campaign, we are seeing the way ahead more clearly.  For example, we had always recognised that this Province had the potential to produce a far greater horticultural harvest than it does at present.  We know that horticultural production in KwaZulu-Natal must be intensified dramatically if we are to realise our goals of chasing away hunger.  But, as mentioned in the Campaign proposals, we must ensure that markets and marketing infrastructures are developed concurrently to ensure the long-term economic sustainability of such projects.

In addressing the opportunities for increased horticultural production, we will be keeping our options open, and will be looking at conventional field production, as well as the rather more specialised options such as hydroponics.  This is the highly technical production of fruiting and flowering crops, suspended, in a sterile growth medium, as opposed to growing them in soil.  Since the growth medium is sterile, all plant nutrients must be provided in solution in the correct ratios at the correct stage of the plant's development.

While we believe hydroponics can offer solutions to some of our problems, technically, it is a very exacting and complex practice, as some hon members of this House would know.  To give just one example of the many things that can and do go wrong.  Unless the water quality is carefully and regularly monitored, and adjusted when necessary, the chemical balance of the nutrient solution can be affected to the extent that serious malnutrition occurs, with consequent crop failure and economic losses.

So we believe, Mr Chairman, rather than rush in and burn our fingers very expensively, we are consulting with recognised world leaders in this field to enlist their guidance.  In this regard, we were heartened by the interest and offers of support from the British Association of Commercial Horticulturists during their visit last month.

In the meantime, in a practical and immediately applicable manner, we are continuing to provide active support for the development of community gardens so that the members of the garden club can produce for their own needs, and then sell the surplus, first within their own community, and then further afield.

It must be stressed that my Department does not see the impact of community gardens as being restricted to the deep rural areas only.  It is clear that in this Province we must pay greater attention to the development of viable urban agriculture, even if only at the level of subsistence production.  It is my earnest hope that, within the very near future, we will see numerous small, but highly productive, communal gardens becoming a feature of our urban landscape.  For example, I would like to see every school, in the cities and towns, as well as in the villages, become involved in the production of the vegetables that it needs.  I must stress that the promotion of such a concept would be undertaken in close association with my Colleague, the Minister of Education.  On a related note, it is pleasing to hear that some of the communities with which my Department is actively involved, have accessed local hotels and game reserves as markets, thus obviating the need for costly transport and market infrastructure.

Within the broad aims of ~Xoshindlala~, my Department has entered into a partnership agreement with the Department of Health, which they are funding, with additional funds provided by the National Department of Health Funding, community based nutrition projects.  These projects involve community vegetable gardens, poultry farming, pig, goat and dairy production and food processing.  The function of developing and supporting such projects falls within the line function of the Department of Agriculture.

My Colleague, the hon the Minister of Health, Dr Mkhize and I, and our respective departments, met and formulated a strategy to implement ways to measure the impact of these projects in terms of improved general health, improved household food security, job creation and capacity building. 

I believe there is no point in us providing all the food that the Province requires and communities if that food does not have a positive impact on the communities in those areas.  We hope, together with the Department of Health, to measure what result this food has in those areas, where we will hope that through the Department of Health, children will be weighed on a regular basis, their performance at schools will be checked in order for us to see whether or not the food that they eat has an impact on their general wellbeing.

SDI LAUNCH AND MECHANISMS FOR FAST TRACKING DELIVERY IN A PLANNED WAY

Yesterday the hon Premier made reference to the Lubombo SDI launch.  The Lubombo Spatial Development Initiative is a concerted programme by the Governments of Swaziland, Mozambique and South Africa to ensure that new investment occurs rapidly in the area where 40% of all economic activities is in the agricultural sector.  For this reason, the Department of Agriculture has a major role to play in the economic development and growth strategy of the three Governments.

The objective of the trilateral Governments is to develop a strategy to convert the mix of human and natural resources of the wider Lubombo area into an internationally competitive zone of economic activity and growth.  They have an agreement which has various aims, one of which involves agriculture on an increasing basis.

The objective is to bring in more private investors and a paradigm shift in approach is necessary for the local communities, to accept the approach in the broader sense, and to allow and, in fact, to welcome other people as investors in the area.  No investor will make the necessary commitment if there is no ownership in the area for the investor.

I therefore appeal to all members of the House that we should make this SDI initiative viable.  We, as the Provincial Government, must have the co-operation of all communities involved and the co-operation of politicians and community leaders is of vital importance.

BUDGETS

Mr Chairman, as I now present the budget for my Department, may I remind the House that there has been a change in the system of budgeting adopted by the Provincial Treasury called the Medium Term Expenditure Framework.  Within this Framework, the departments of this Province have to focus beyond their own objectives and priorities, and incorporate the Provincial priorities which were adopted in the Budget Indaba at San Lameer last year.

As a result of this focus, my Department, in terms of its allocation, experienced a severe cut of R100,734 million from what we had asked for which was R343,998 million.  Our allocation for this year is R243,264 million.

The amount available to spend in terms of working capital is R57,674 million, since R185,590 million is for personnel expenditure.  We are all aware in this House that the personnel remains fixed, and even if there is need to cut down on personnel we cannot do that until a retrenchment package of sorts is available from National Government.

I think we, as the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, not only for the Department of Agriculture, but for all departments, need to know when this retrenchment package will be made available by the National Government so that we can start implementing this within our Province.  Otherwise, Mr Chairman, we will find ourselves in all departments saddled with personnel that we may not really require, but we have to keep on, and some of them may just have to twiddle their thumbs, some of them may just have to sit in offices and not even answer telephones, because we may not have the money to pay for those telephone calls or for telephones to be installed in their offices.

Emanating from the Provincial Budget Deficit experienced in 1997/1998 which has had a serious impact on 1998/1999 budget allocations, Provincial Treasury has appealed to each department to exercise stringent control measures over its budget and monthly cash-flow budget.  In full support of the Treasury, my Department has submitted the Management Plan for the control of 1998/1999 expenditure to the Finance Portfolio Committee, of which the hon Mr Makhaye is Chair, and I am sure he has received that particular document.  Further, my Department has issued a departmental circular on the Control Mechanism on the Current Cash-flow/Expenditure, to convey the control message to the Programme and Responsibility Managers.

I can assure the House, Mr Chairman, that the Department will do its best out of this allocation which will be applied generally according to the following standard items:

PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE	:	R185 590 000

Provision under this standard item has been decreased from what we had asked by R28,421 million.  As indicated in the 1997/1998 Budget Speech, the Forestry programme has been transferred to the National Department of Water Affairs and Forestry.  Since funds follow the function, this personnel expenditure amount had to be reduced.

(a)	ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENDITURE:	R23 288 000

	Here there has been a decrease of R7,339 million, and this caters for the general administrative service, namely telephones, running costs and allowances of both official and subsidised transport.

(b)	STORES AND LIVESTOCK	:	R9 340 000

	This standard item has been decreased by R24,563 million.  It is in this standard item that the cost of dipping materials was previously included.  The amount available will be used to purchase critical goods and stocks to maintain the core business of the Department.  The amount available will also cater for printing of publications and provisions for students at Cedara and Owen Sithole Colleges.


(c)	EQUIPMENT:	R3 148 000

	This standard item has been decreased by R15,215 million, and due to the limited funds, no replacements of heavy equipment will take place.  The amount available will cater for the Year 2000 testing software and for maintenance of existing computer equipment.

(d)	LAND AND BUILDINGS:	R205 000

	This standard item is for maintenance of agriculture infrastructure buildings.

(e)	PROFESSIONAL AND SPECIAL SERVICES:	R14 253 000

	This standard item has been decreased by R10,175 million.  The available funds will cater for the annual rentals to OpeNet lines, AgriNet Internet Access and payments to contractors who had to complete certain projects during this current financial year.

(f)	TRANSFER PAYMENTS:	R7 440 000

	The allocation under this standard item has been reduced by R11,867 million.  The provision for companies of which this Department owns shares, namely, Mpendle Ntambanana and Mjindi Farming Agricultural Company (Pty) Limited, had to be reduced accordingly.  However, these organisations will perform development works to farming communities in various districts at minimal cost.

	I believe, and I strongly believe, Mr Chairman, that it is not the function of Government to farm or manage State Land.  As I have mentioned earlier, urgent discussions are underway to ensure the transfer in ownership to private individuals.

CONCLUSION

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, colleagues, I believe that each one of us here today has made a commitment to serve the people of KwaZulu-Natal, as my Department and I have done.  I ask that each of you joins us, in striving towards integrated rural development in the interests of steering the Province towards the attainment of the provincial goals for the year 2020.

I offer to you a Department that has shown itself to be prudent and responsible:  a Department that has initiative and is pro-active, innovative, creative and determined to see this Province achieve its goals for agricultural development.

My sincere thanks are due to the hon Premier, and the Cabinet for their guidance:  and to the Secretary of the Department, Mr Kruger, senior management and the staff of the Department that I am honoured to represent.  I also thank the hon Mr MacKenzie and the Agriculture Portfolio Committee, Organised Agriculture and Agri-Business, the members of the Provincial Budget Council, and the Secretary to the Provincial Treasury for their continued support.  In particular, I wish to thank those colleagues in this House who continue to express interest in, and support for all our agricultural endeavours.

I truly believe that if we continue to work together for the good of all the people of this Province, KwaZulu-Natal will and can truly become the Garden Province of South Africa.

Mr Chairman, hon colleagues, I now move that the Budget of the Department of Agriculture for consideration of this House.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Minister.  I shall now call upon the hon Mr MacKenzie, the chairperson of the Agricultural Portfolio Committee.  You have 15 minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Chairman, I highly commend the speech that was made by Minister Singh as being very comprehensive and informative.  I therefore congratulate him.

Agriculture is traditionally not a charismatic subject and this brown status adds to the fact that it is easily overlooked when budget allocations are made.  What is alarming though, is that those who decide the allocations seem oblivious to the fact that without a healthy agriculture even their ample bellies will be denied sustenance.  Earmarked funds, we believe, are hijacked and patronising accusations are made of possibly unauthorised expenditure.

The subsistence land user who wishes only to feed the family is perhaps the fortunate member of the agriculture fraternity, because any pretensions at becoming "a farmer" immediately result in a series of blockages, almost as if they were designed to impede the establishment of the emergent farmer.  The emergent farmer has to contend with loans for input costs, storage, marketing, training, risk assessment and so on.

In the past we have talked loftily of establishing user-friendly marketing techniques in order to help our land users to climb the ladder from small subsistence to small commercial, and then hopefully to commercial farmer status.  This has been truncated, Mr Chairman, by the unimaginative and brutal cuts in our budget allocations.

Most politicians are very perturbed about the so-called "urban drift".  So they well might be, because the pressure put on our cities and towns by burgeoning squatter camps and the never ending demand for housing and services, and most important of all, the necessary industries to supply jobs for these new migrants, is enormous.  Without a job you will find that people will quite understandably resort to crime in order to survive, and crime, as we know, is rampant.  The interior becomes steadily denuded and the gleaming hope which was literally broadcast in 1994 sinks out of sight for aspirant land user/farmers, because if they have no money to start up their irrigation schemes, or to look after their livestock, or to form their marketing co-operatives, there is no incentive to remain on the farm land out in the hinterland.  A truly holistic approach is needed with regard to the managing of KwaZulu-Natal's whole area, and not just a concentration of where the problems arise.  

We have debated endlessly both here and at portfolio level about rural security, and we have made no appreciable impact whatsoever on this totally unacceptable situation.  Rural land users are not able to sustain any losses, particularly of livestock, since there is no recourse to insurance for them, or a financial reserve to restart again after they have been stolen blind.  It is now coming down to this, that at the moment my Portfolio Committee has empowered me to investigate the possibility of bringing together private security firms in order to form a blanket coverage of the ~Amakhosi~ areas so that they can look after the interests of the truly impoverished.

The immediate question is, who will pay for this?  We are seeking independent funds since the budget is unable to sustain real use in so far as criminal protection is concerned.  It can be asked why the SAPS are unwilling or unable to carry out the task which their terms of reference demands of them, or is it merely that they are weighed down by their own inertia?  It is always the case of no staff or no vehicles, and that is the common cry from SAPS stations.

The New Animal Improvement Bill is designed to upgrade existing rural herds, and is one of the most comprehensively compiled pieces of legislation in the field of agriculture this year.  However, how can you improve the herds by genetic engineering, breed selection, in vitro fertilization if the herd is unhealthy, undernourished and lastly perhaps, and most important of all, is that we lack the extension knowledge at the moment to administer these advanced techniques, and there is no money anyway to carry out any animal improvement.  We will be seeking a voting mandate next week on this subject, and I hope my colleagues will give long and careful thought to these almost impossible dreams.

The potential ecological damage caused by desperate attempts to get income in order to feed families is in itself a topic worthy of intensive study.  For example, forestry.  A plot is arranged with the tribal authorities, and the trees are planted.  In most cases eucalyptus species, and it is a well-known fact that they are voracious users of water.

No ecological damage is done if the sight index qualifies with forestry norms and standards for the crop, however, when trees are planted in marginal areas there is a negative impact on underground water.  As my colleague John Jeffery and I have discussed in the past, he knows that in the case of the Kosi Lake system, the seepage into this fragile wetland is reduced, and it will result in an increase in salinity and an adverse impact on fish populations, thus in turn threatening a traditional food source.

Not only Kosi is at risk, but wherever trees are planted in marginal areas, damage is sure to follow.  Once again, we have mentioned integrated environmental planning with emphasis on land use as a vital necessity.  However, how can you stop an impoverished and malnourished family from resorting to any means in order to live?  Food security, therefore should be the principle aim and following this, it should be job security.

The Makhathini irrigation scheme can be called one of the breakthroughs in forward thinking and planning which includes land tenure, in South Africa.  A word of caution here is necessary, and that is the terms of reference and the criteria used to select occupants of this potentially lucrative scheme must be carefully controlled and managed, otherwise the motive for the scheme will not have been fulfilled if the poor of the region are pushed aside by outsiders who, at the moment, have the necessary resources.

While the Department of Agriculture has developed a very comprehensive array of skills, there is a great need to continue to reshape agriculture so that it truly applies to the emergent and aspirant farmer.  You will have heard in the comprehensive speech delivered by my Minister, that it is being addressed.  I stress that we must try and concentrate on this area.  The obvious visual imbalances of well-fed cattle, healthy crops and affluence on white owned farms against the worm ridden, emaciated livestock, the weed ridden fields and the impoverished state of the African land user, and I cannot call them farmers, is a recipe for exacerbating racial imbalance, and therefore the capacity for conflict.  The Department must develop a transformation policy to rectify these imbalances, and it is a huge ask, it is a massive request, but it is the one that will have to be done.  Ask, ASK and not ARS, as you might have thought. 

Lastly, while it seems to be departmental self-preservation politics, that the last area in a budget which is subject to cuts is the staff compliment, it must be stated that the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Agriculture is not as guilty as some other departments.

Finally, in this austere climate, there is no room for complacency, especially if the objective is food security.  I wish to compliment the Minister Narend Singh, and his staff on an acceptable level of efficiency with a minimal occurrence of corruption, and I wish to thank members of my Portfolio Committee, with particular reference to Mr Thami Mohlomi, the ANC study group chair, for their support for the year, and I formally support the budget tabled.

How much time have I got, Mr Chairman?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have about five minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  Now I can drop my formal response and I can move to other matters which I am allowed to.  I have raised before in this House, Mr Chairman, that we are deluding ourselves if we believe that we have informed the public on a potential Bill after it has been published in newspapers, and sent out on radio and/or TV.  Because the large percentage of our population is unable to read, does not own a TV, and very few have radios.

We therefore are deluding ourselves if we, as legislators, say [Hang on, my brother, give me an opportunity, yours will come].

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  Order.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  We are therefore deluding ourselves if we say we have informed the public.  I do believe that each department in some way or another has its tendrils, through its representatives, out in the rural areas where the highest incidents of illiteracy occurs.  They are the ones who should disseminate the information on the contents of the Bill in those areas.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR M M MACKENZIE:  If we do have public hearings [yes, my sister, indeed, yes, my sister].  If we do have this service then we can truly say that we have served the public when we stand here and pontificate about our Bills, and how clever we are when in actual fact those who voted us in do not know what we are doing.

I would also like to ask here about the real powers and functions of the Finance Portfolio Committee.  I now find in that long litany and diatribe which was presented on the first day in Parliament that they are now even getting down to finding out whether the Department of Agriculture is actually planting vegetables or not, [that is not their job, Sibalukhulu, indeed, it is not].

They are meant to look after whether we spend money in the right way or not.  They do not have to get down to vegetables.  What has that got to do with them. [indeed these people are haughty, lastly, indeed, my sister].

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please! 

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Lastly here, Chairman, if the Powers of Attorney continue to be withheld, we on this side of the House will only draw one conclusion, that National is withholding a Power of Attorney for long term political gains by handing out the sweets and then being able to gain the kudos for so doing.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Mr MacKenzie.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order please.  The hon Mr S E Mchunu.  You have 13 minutes.

MR E S MCHUNU:  Thank you very much, hon Chair.  Firstly, I would like to acknowledge and congratulate the Minister and his Department for all the efforts they have made, thus far, in contributing to nation building through Agriculture, and their specific initiatives in this venture.

Hon Minister, I was present at the launch of ~Xoshindlala~ last night.  I appreciate the initiative and commend the Department for it.

Secondly, I want to say, Mr Minister, that ~Xoshindlala~ is a plan, it is a strategy.  I want to say that it remains a strategy, and it remains a plan until it is implemented.  Therefore we would want to say that while it is a very good strategy and a very good plan, and despite certain concrete steps that you took to demonstrate that you mean business, it is important to acknowledge that it remains a plan until implemented.  Indeed I did realise that you meant business, because there was a difference between the food that we ate there last night, and the food that we are going to eat at lunch time.  I want to say that the food that we are going to eat at lunch time will be ~Xoshindlala~.  I am not organising a boycott, because I was once fired from a university for organising a boycott for food.  [LAUGHTER]

Secondly, I do want to say that you did demonstrate that you mean business, because quite a number of people left the function with something in hand, and we hope that when we follow it up we will reap the benefits, and would like to commend you for that.

As I have said, there are two things that we can do with the strategy or with that plan.  The first one is to implement it, and the second one is to shelve it.  Put it on shelves.  Those are the two things that we can do. 

If we choose to implement the plan, I want to say that we will have to go the Finance Committee way:  that of identifying what decisions exactly you have taken.  What is the time frame that you have set for yourselves, and who are the people who have been given the responsibility to implement those decisions and follow these things up in an appropriate time?  If we do not do this, it will remain a plan, as I have said.

Indeed as you called on everybody to contribute and take part in this initiative and other initiatives initiated by the Department, we all intend doing so and we want to assure you that we will be there and ready to contribute.

Over and above what the Finance Committee has recommended as a way of functioning, I want to make a few observations about this initiative and other initiatives of the Department.

The first one is that there are certain factors which I regard as inhibiting.  I want to say that there are a number of inhibiting factors, and believe me, Mr Minister, when this initiative and other initiatives of a department do not yield the results they intend, you will say there is somebody who is bewitching your Department. [Ultimately, you will say that someone is bewitching your Department].  The problem is, I believe that, you see, as a politician I also believe in what scientists have to say, and scientists like saying that the way you look at your face, reflects the food that you eat.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION AND LAUGHTER

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!

MR E S MCHUNU:  Your plan or strategy is as important as the instruments that you will use to achieve its objectives.  In this regard, I just want to say that your Department needs to actively and visibly include black people, particularly because this initiative seems to target the poor rural people, and seeks to improve their lives.  Therefore you need to ensure that in your top structure you have to have black people who are visible and active, to make sure that the plan does succeed.  I believe that those people will have a particular role to play in terms of interacting with those people in rural areas.  Hon Minister, we need to remove this weakness, and I believe in it.  I believe that on removing it we will move a number of steps forward.

Secondly, I want to say that the Department has to do something in terms of analysing this initiative, and to check whether this strategy or this plan is indeed production or market orientated.  In other words, we want to say that the message should be produce, and you will have value for your product.  That should be the message.  It should not be just a question of produce, produce, produce.

The reason for saying this is because I am talking from experience, because people will soon say:  "Minister Singh promised and promised, and then promised", including those who will not be doing anything [great loafers]. who will not be doing anything, but they will always say so.  I am saying this from experience.  There is a song particularly in this Province which says the ANC promised one, two, three, promised one, two, three.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

MR E S MCHUNU:  There are people who want to believe that there is no difference between a mission statement.  A mission statement is the same as concrete attainments reflected on that particular statement, and I want to believe that there is a difference.  There is a difference between a mission statement and the attainments that are reflected in that mission statement.

People want to pretend.  They say it is wrong for a father to say he wants his son to achieve one, two, three which is not a fact.  When they attack you, Mr Minister, on this initiative and other initiatives you must know that you are on track.  If you do not indicate the direction which your Department wants to follow then you are doomed and you have no mission and you have no vision whatsoever.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR E S MCHUNU:  The third issue that I want to deal with is the question of the relations which the Minister touched on between his Department and therefore the Province and the National Department of Land Affairs.  While there seems to be these constraints and they appear to be inhibiting, I believe that we should be beginning now to do something about it.  I do not believe that we cannot have serious discussions with the Minister of Land Affairs and Agriculture on this State land and try to bring to him, I mean apart from whatever powers we have and whatever powers we do not have, but I believe that we as the Portfolio Committee can intervene.  You will have our support.  We can move quite decisively on this matter.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR E S MCHUNU:  We should not sit down and complain, and say we cannot move simply because of the rules and regulations.  I am sure that my Minister, Minister Singh, will move in that direction.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have two minutes left.

MR E S MCHUNU:  The second issue that I want to deal with, Mr Minister, is the one the hon member Mr V Mvelase merely referred to yesterday.  I do not just want to touch on it, I want to emphasise it, because it is very important.  I realised when he was talking that there was tolerance in his tone, and I do not want that tolerance.

That has to do with what is happening on farms.  During Verwoerd's heydays, which of course was South Africa's darkest days, I am told that Verwoerd once stood on the table and said, "Waar staan ek", and his members yelled back and said, "Jy staan op die tafel".  And he said, "Nee, ek staan nie op die tafel nie, ek staan op die kaffer se nek".  

AN HON MEMBER:  That is a lie.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR E S MCHUNU:  I mean they were lagging far behind.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please! 

MR E S MCHUNU:  And indeed on farms, Mr Chairman, I want to say this very clearly, particularly in the north, white farmers literally suck blood out of black poor people through labour practices which are both colonial and satanic.  These practices are tailor-made to produce worried, thin, fearful white worshipping people in those particular areas.  This is very painful and unacceptable, totally unacceptable.  White farmers, sometimes joined by black farmers, forcefully remove people, they threaten them, they close footpaths in those areas, they close their schools or threaten to close those schools.  They take their livestock, they throw them inside police cells.  They deny the dead people places for decent burials.

If you doubt this, I want to say to you, you must follow me.  I challenge anyone in this House to follow me to the north, to Ingogo where the hon member of Parliament Wessel Nel comes from.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has 30 seconds left.

MR E S MCHUNU:  You will see something that you cannot believe what is happening in that particular area, where other members of this Parliament come from.  We cannot tolerate this situation, and we cannot continue with this particular situation.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Mr Mchunu.  I have pleasure in calling upon Mr Bartlett.  The hon member has 10 minutes.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I would at the outset also like to compliment the Minister.  I think he summarised the activities of his Department well.  I think he is to be complimented, and also the staff who have faced a very difficult task in adapting themselves to the restrictions on their expenditure.  I want to say at the outset, we in these benches will support this budget.

There is one thing that does concern me however, and that is this matter of the Finance Committee's report which says that there was unauthorised expenditure in the Department.  I do not know whether many of the members, and I hope they do, understand that term politically.  It is a very, very serious term.  For a Minister to have been found to have expended money without authority, especially a large amount like R62 million odd, is a very serious charge.

It is not just the Minister, because the chief accounting officer, who happens to be the Secretary, it is his role to make sure he stays within his budget.  I do not believe we can sweep this statement under the carpet.  I really do not.  In fairness to the Minister, in fairness to the Secretary, and in fairness to this Parliament, we have got to know exactly what happened.  If we do not come to the truth of this, the people involved will have this black mark on their record, and that is what we do not want.

If indeed they did expend money without authority, then they must take the rap, as they say, but I do not believe they did.  I really believe that this thing has got to be expunged from the record if it is not true.  The Portfolio Committee and this Parliament must set the record straight.  What does it mean if the record is not straight, Mr Chairman?  It means that some other department overexpended to the tune of R62 million, and the blame has been switched over to this Department.  That is not fair.  It is not fair at all.  I appeal to all members, and all parties, let us get the record straight.  I want to say to the Minister, and to the Secretary and his staff, we will endeavour to do just that.

The next thing I want to talk about is the cut in the budget.  It is a huge cut in the budget.  It is a tremendous challenge to the Minister, the Secretary and the staff.  It is going to really test them as managers.  It is going to really test them as far as their vision goes.  Looking at their mission and their objectives, which are clearly stated in their report, this cut is going to really exercise their minds as to how they can achieve their mission statement and their objectives within this reduced budget.

I am pleased to see that they have, according to what the Minister said, have had strategic planning exercises.  They have endeavoured to reprioritise the budget, and knowing the Department as I do, Mr Chairman, having been Minister for two years, I am sure that the personnel, the staff and the Secretary have done a good job, because they have, in my experience, faced issues head on.  So I wish them luck.  I really wish them luck.

Thirdly, I must say that I have a number of concerns in this budget cutting exercise.  The one is over the dipping budget.  This cut of R24,5 million, is a huge cut on the budget.  What is being done is to endeavour to bring the responsibility for the dipping of cattle down to the farmers.  This is a good idea, if it works in practice.  I am very pleased to hear that the ~Amakhosi~ are being brought into this area of responsibility, because the responsibility for dipping is a very, very serious responsibility.  If you do not dip cattle and a disease breaks out, it can spread like a winter veld fire through the livestock industry, and can do serious damage to the economy of agriculture.

Therefore, I ask the Department, and I hope they will put in place an effective monitoring system including the ~Amakhosi~ to make sure that the cattle are being dipped.  It is a great adventure they are embarking upon because it is a positive development to bring this responsibility closer to the people.

The second concern I have is the very large cut in the equipment costs.  It is now only R3,1 million on the budget, and it has been cut by 50,2%.  What does this mean in practice?  Mr Chairman, I am sure anybody who has a business or a farm such as I have understands what this means.  It means that you are not replacing equipment.  It means that you may not be maintaining the equipment correctly.  You are in the danger of allowing your moveable assets to wear out and grind to a halt.  If that happens not only the Department is going to suffer, but all the farmers, especially the emerging farmers who rely upon this equipment.  They will also suffer.  I hate to think what might happen a year, or two, or three down the line.

The third concern I have is the very, very small allocation of only R205 000 for land and buildings.  I know when I was Minister, sir, I toured the area.  There was a lot of work that had to be done on maintaining the Department buildings, bringing fences up to scratch, and ensuring that the fixed assets of the Department, their buildings, were not allowed to deteriorate and eventually fall apart.  Indeed some of the places I visited were indeed falling apart.  So I am really worried in this regard.  I understand the problems of the budget cuts, but I am worried that this very important side of the Department's assets could be lost.

The one positive thing I support is the money that has been allocated to women's sewing clubs.  You know, sir, I was once asked in, I think, a portfolio committee, why this activity is included in the Agricultural budget.  Mr Chairman, if we study the history of successful rural development one will find that at the core of it, right at the core of it has been the women.  It is the women that hold the rural productive community together, especially the family unit.  Women who assist their husbands who are working out on the farms, through not only feeding them, and looking after the children, but also by turning their hands to crafts such as making their own clothes and producing other needs for the family.  It is the women who assist the family unit in eventually uplifting themselves and emerging into productive commercial farmers.

I would also like the Department to encourage these women's clubs to exhibit their clothes and other produce at the Royal Agricultural Show in Pietermaritzburg where there is always a very good exhibit in the Home and Crafts Exhibition Hall.  I believe that some emerging farmers are starting to exhibit on the Royal Show, but I would like this to be encouraged by the Department.  It does not only stimulate the community as a whole, but it also stimulates the women's minds and their husband's minds, and will also generate income.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes left.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  It will also stimulate agri-tourism.  The sale of home-made crafts is a very big industry throughout the world, and it is growing in South Africa.  I am sure I do not have to tell any of the members this, because it so evident today.

Mr Chairman, in the short time I have left, there is another concern I wish to put to the Minister.  Your budget, I speak through you, Mr Chairman, the Minister's budget has been cut.  However I want to ask him, whether the Cabinet has examined other departments' budgets to see whether money that has been allocated, let us say to Health, or to Education, or to Local Government and Housing, or to Welfare, or indeed, within local government councils' budgets, is being spent on agricultural or home-craft development?  I ask this sir, because if it is, I believe the Cabinet should have a look at it, because  that money that is being spent from say, the Department of Health's budget, should really be allocated to the Department of Agriculture that is equipped and has the people and skills, and the experience, to do the work.

I mean who would suggest that the Department of Agriculture should perhaps run a clinic in a rural area, or a school in the rural area?  Surely departments have to stick to their specific functions, even though the hon member Mr Mchunu, said earlier, that we should bend the rules a little bit here and there.  I agree to a point, but not to the extent, where the budgets of different departments are being used for functions for which those departments were never really set up.  This is rather a serious matter.

Why I say this, is because I hear that ratepayers' money paid to local government, ostensibly for the provision of services is now being used to promote the growing of vegetables in the townships. 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am afraid the hon member's time is up.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon Mr Combrinck.  Mr Combrinck, you have 10 minutes.

MR H L COMBRINCK:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, for the opportunity to take part in this budget debate.

In view of the massive budgetary cut which reduced the total budget by 29%, and therefore the operational budget by 54%, new measures should be taken and planned for, for the year ahead.  In Rand and cent value, or terms, it means about R101 million.

27% of South Africa's population living on less than 10% of the area must eat every day of their lives.  With nearly half of the South African population unemployed, and plus/minus 450 000 school-leaving learners a year, a massive crisis is looming on the horizon for this Province, and the country.

Mr Chairman, that is why every minute of the day we must think of food security for our own people in this Province.  That is the Department must do their utmost to help people to provide food for themselves, and not spend one hungry night.  With the Iskor giant thinking of retrenching 27 000 workers, and the mining companies facing retrenchments of more than 100 000 workers, the future is not very bright at all.

Vegetable gardens, already established, are doing well for certain communities where they can sell their crops to local business people, game reserves and hotels.  The IFP's idea of self-help and self-reliance must be sold to everybody in this Province.

If we estimate that, for instance, the establishment of a vegetable garden costs between R10 000 and R20 000, we could have produced between 5 000 and 10 000 gardens in this Province if we had the money that our budget was cut with.

Mr Chairman, he Land Bank will play a vital role in the Province, with their new scheme whereby the poorest of the poor can borrow R250 and pay it back over a period with interest and then borrow a larger sum of money.  A group of people can now at last borrow funds from this institution, and start their own businesses, for instance, vegetable gardens, chicken farming etcetera.

Better agricultural production will help to alleviate the massive unemployment dilemma in our Province, and it is also known that investment in this sector creates up to 100% more employment opportunities.

Mr Chairman, a second aspect I would like to touch on is rural security.  It is with deep concern that I have to report that efforts to set up a working relationship with the SAPS in this Province has nearly failed.  A subcommittee of the Portfolio Committee of Agriculture and Safety and Security was formed in the last quarter of last year.  Since then, I have tried my best to involve the top management in our Province to feed us information.

Mr Chairman, if I can refresh your memories by reminding the hon House, that after numerous farm attacks last year in the Free State, the South African Agricultural Union held talks with the State President and a rural security plan was put on the table for implementation.  In this Province the top structure, the POCOC, or the Priority Committee was formed with KwaNalu taking a leading role.  I personally, on various occasions, held talks with the Commissioner in this Province and letters were sent to him by myself, to no avail.

My idea to serve this House in this committee was gunned down.  The reason, "We do not need politicians in this committee".  It is therefore very strange to notice that in the structure report, at the top, to the Minister of Safety and Security, a politician.  Lately, minutes have been sent to me and hopefully a meeting will be called in the near future, whereby various stakeholders will report in full to this subcommittee.

The purpose of this body was, and still is, to calm the situation on the ground where tension between different groups may occur.  It is also our aim to ensure that the rural security plan be implemented in all the areas of this Province.  In a meeting of the Portfolio Committee of Safety and Security our terms of reference was widened to look into farm evictions and possible tensions in this area, wherever they may occur.

Mr Chairman, we cannot allow attacks, murders and assaults to continue in this country.  Our farming community has the right to safety and security!

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MR H L COMBRINCK:  One newspaper talks of the "beginning" of anarchy.  It is not the beginning of anarchy, it is anarchy.  Far more South African farmers have been killed, since 1994, than throughout the Rhodesian war.  The anger and frustration is reaching flash point.  Rural areas right across the country are gripped with fear.  The whole situation is fraught with danger.  Land promises by unions, and the non-delivery of Land Affairs to the people are also causes of the conflict.

Stats show that farmers are four times more likely to be murdered than the general population.  The elderly seem to be singled out as soft targets, in apparently deliberate attempts to drive them off the land.  This is creating a very negative view overseas of the South African situation in general.

The National Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs, Minister Derek Hanekom, seems not to be very concerned about the situation.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member has two minutes left.

MR H L COMBRINCK:  That is why I would like to thank our Minister for the remarks he has made about the situation in our Province, and his role to curb these brutal attacks on farmers and rural families.

Mr Chairman, the last question I have to ask is, if there is no political motive behind the killings, if the motive is criminality, what is there to hide?  The slogans used, "Kill the boer, kill the farmer", by Peter Mokaba, and "One bullet, one settler", is still in use.  What happened this week in the Bloemfontein army camp where hundreds of weapons were stolen and slogans were left behind, even at the murder scenes of farmers.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

AN HON MEMBER:  It is true.

MR H L COMBRINCK:  Mr Chairman, I had a lot to say about community access roads, and that we are not receiving any help from the Minister in the Province in that regard.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

MNR H L COMBRINCK:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mnr die Voorsitter, ek wil ook die Minister bedank vir die rol wat hy gisteraand gespeel het in die projek wat hy geloods het, ~Xoshindlala~, of direk vertaal, "Stop Hongersnood".  Ek dink dit is 'n baie belangrike aangeleentheid vir voedselsekuriteit in ons Provinsie.  Ook moet ek die Minister en sy span bedank vir sy besoeke aan my gebied en hom ook herinner dat hy ons nog 'n besoek skuld.  Dit sal hopelik binnekort plaasvind, en nie weer in sulke stormagtig weer soos die vorige keer nie.

My dank aan die Departement se bestuur vir 'n baie goeie verhouding en hulle hulp aan my en hierdie Agbare Huis ten alle tye.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Give him a hearing please.

MNR H L COMBRINCK:  Ongelukkig, mnr die Voorsitter, word ek geen keuse gelaat nie, maar dat ek my steun aan hierdie belaglike klein begroting moet gee.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Our next speaker is the hon Mr Nel.  Mr Nel, you have seven minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Thank you, Chairman.  I too would like to congratulate the Minister for several achievements.  First is, that he tabled well in advance of the debate, the annual report of the Department, which is a useful thing for members to have, and a comprehensive report it is too.  Secondly, for letting us see his speech in advance of the debate this morning, which also helps to prepare for a logical debate in this House.

The hon member Mr Combrinck put his finger on it.  He talked about food security, and the tremendous urgency to actually secure food security, especially in view of unemployment, and perhaps other pending retrenchments in the pipeline, etcetera.  It is ironic that in our Province we are better placed than any other province to create food security.  Yet, we now battle with a budget that is guaranteed to actually help us not achieve what we might otherwise have achieved.

It is a disgrace that agriculture gets treated like a Cinderella, as we witness in this budget.  It has a huge multiper effect, and it has the ability to help the poorest of the poor.  Yet, it seems to be caught in a vice.  A vice between the inequitable allocation of funds by National Government to our Province, on the one hand, and on the other hand, the competitive pressures of the behemoth departments like Education, Health and Welfare, which gobble up all the money.

Thus we have a situation where the budget of Agriculture, this year, in the Province is cut by some 30%, from R344 million to R243 million, and that personnel expenditure, as a percentage of that budget, now rockets from 63% last year, which was already unacceptable, to something like 77% this year.  I am left with no other conclusion that the Department will be unable to fulfil its mandate or its mission, and will in many instances be unable to gainfully employ some of its staff, some of whom, as the Minister indicated, may well have to resort to unproductive activities because he simply cannot furnish them with the tools for the job.

We are concerned, sir, that increasingly, whilst we may have lofty ideals for financial and expenditure controls in Government, which we must praise on the one hand, on the other, we do not have the tools to, for example, reduce personnel expenditure so that we increasingly have departments that have dwindling budgets, but still have increases in personnel burdens.

If we look at Agriculture, sir, four years ago in 1994/1995, it constituted 2,2% of the provincial budget.  It is now down to 1,4% of this provincial budget.  A relative cut of about 33% in comparison to the other departments.  Agriculture as I said before, is the one where with the least money we can perhaps achieve the most.  We need to look at the report of the Department of Agriculture to just appreciate the wide spectrum or the wide range of activities carried out by the Department.

If you look at the Department, and I will just highlight some of the things from the South-East Region, they are involved in sewing clubs, saving clubs, knitting, cookery, handicraft and home gardens.  They have extension meetings.  There are demonstrations at demonstration plots, of which they held about 550 demonstrations.  That is in one region alone.  We see they are also involved with establishing crop production schemes and irrigation schemes.  But importantly too, sir, spring development.

There is a lot of talk about water provision, and the fact that a large percentage of our population does not have access to potable water for household use.  Yet, in this Province there is a vast source of spring water which, if adequately controlled, can provide good clean water to hundreds of thousands of people.  This Department is involved in that.  They are involved in boreholes, they are involved in conservation of land, the prevention of breaking up erodible land or low potential land, also in forestry permits, contours and waterways.  That is roughly the range of activities that they are involved in.  I put it to you, that no department perhaps deserves money more than this one, in view of the potential it has to turn that into delivery to the poorest of the poor.

Sir, they educate.  The transfer of knowledge is something that will suffer now that the budget is cut.  There is a vast store of practical knowledge in Owen Sithole and Cedara in the hands of extension officers.  As soon as the budget is cut they cannot travel, they will not be able to hold the workshops they should be holding, to transfer that knowledge to the people who can invest it directly, just with sweat equity in tilling the land to better effect and producing more. 

There is also a report in the Minister's speech about recognising the potential, not only of rural agriculture, but of urban agriculture.  Many of our areas on the coastal areas here, the densely populated areas have got high potential soils where, on very small pieces of land, there can be added income, or at least there can be a partial satisfaction of the food needs of families.  All of these things are going to suffer due to a lack of funds to encourage and advise.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute left.

MR W U NEL:  This brings me to a very big issue, sir, and one that is not talked of enough.  For about six or seven years now, I have said that there are hundreds of thousands of hectares of State land which should be rapidly given to emerging farmers and they should be established.  That was even before the elections.  The election was four years ago, and still in this Province we are bickering whether it should be Agriculture or Land Affairs.  I would maintain it is Agriculture that should be implementing viable solutions to allocate this land.  The land is rapidly being invaded and eventually will be lost to productive agriculture, when long ago we might have established people to farm there productively.

I would urge that we have a provincial initiative to actually sort this out, and to ensure that our Department of Agriculture is put in charge of the redistribution of all that land as quickly as possible, so people can start using it.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am afraid the hon member's time is over.  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon Reverend Mtetwa, to address the House for 11 minutes.

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works): 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!. [Continue sir].

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works): TRANSLATION:  You too pay homage, Makhaye.  Mr Chairman and the whole House, let me start off also by saying thank you and congratulate and praise my colleague for the manner in which he presented his budget speech.

It will be as if we are singing a song if we all go back to the worrying issue of the reduction in the budget.  I feel very concerned, Chairperson, because of the worrying situation pertaining to this budget.  Today's allocation of R243,650 million, which is the allocation for the financial year 1998/99, this allocation represents 2,8% less than the allocation last year.  The Province of KwaZulu-Natal has very many people who are poverty stricken when compared to the situation world-wide.  There are between 350,000 to 400,000 rural families, who depend solely on the land to survive.  In certain areas there is a very great and urgent need to increase food production, which is nutritious to the body.  Approximately two-thirds of the people in this Province who represents five-eighths, percentage-wise, require assistance as far as farming is concerned.  However, the Department has attempted to create an assistance programme, which is an open programme, which is a programme which gives knowledge, skills and training and incentives to better the production on the small farms.

Chairperson, a budget allocation as small as this, will cause all these plans and assistance to come to naught, as the number of people in this Province continues to grow.  The burden which rests on our shoulders is to activate and create development, or alternatively, a situation in the farming community which is vibrant, so that the lives of the community can become vibrant.  In order to create other programmes, we need more money.  It becomes very difficult to complete the programmes before the end of the financial year, then they are transferred to the following financial year, and then it appears as if there is some sort of failure on the part of the Department.  Sufficient funds ensure a vibrant agriculture.  It also places agriculture in a better position, which is necessary in order to be able to compete.

A lot of the rural families are only able to produce enough for their own needs, where as in fact, we need more than our own needs, so that we can sell it, so that we can earn money.  We, as a Government, need to teach our people, who are small farmers, new and wiser ways, because many of the ways are now old fashioned.  They are very old ways, but if there is money, we would need to improve the level of skills and the methods that are used.  That would improve production and development.  Livestock is the only valuable possessions which our rural people have.  We need to assist them to protect these possessions.  Rural areas have grazing areas which are unfenced and vegetable plots which are unfenced.  This leads to a great problem as far as the safety of livestock and the safety of produce is concerned.

Mr Chairman, we need to assist our people in order to protect their possessions.  We must also ensure the safety of the homes.  We have had problems, previously, as a result of people being treated in an unequal manner.  We have had discrimination in the law and also the absence of justice, which led to poverty in the rural areas.  Being deprived of rights pertaining to land and the destruction of the land, and the whole issue of development under the previous political situation, in the rural areas, was something that was very difficult, as a result of the shortage of proper resources.  It is now right for us to look at the issue of people's lives.  The fact that people were deprived of land and their rights.

Mr Chairman, I want to say that it is now our task, which befits us at this time, as members of this Government, and members of Parliament, to see whether or not the resources that we have, are used properly in order to ensure that those resources benefit the economy of KwaZulu-Natal.  We need to assist everybody equally.  Our aim in this Department is to ensure that there is a proper agricultural infrastructure, and also to ensure that there is sufficient food, and also to improve the living standards of people, especially those who were over-looked as far as development is concerned, and who, historically, have been deprived of opportunities.

This aim could be achieved by the availability of money.  The availability of money would mean the development of the community and would generate money and would lead to the improvement, especially in the production of food, and also in an improvement in creating job opportunities.  The growing of the economy.

HON MEMBERS: INTERJECTIONS!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!  Order!  Continue, sir.

TRANSLATION:  The growing of the economy which would lead to the betterment of living standards, clearly will not happen, Mr Chairman.  It is clear that the Department will not be able to take care of agriculture in this Province, because of an allocation of funds which is too small.

Mr Chairman and hon Members, I believe that each one of us, as individuals, present here today, should make a commitment that we will donate to the people of this Province.  We need to see the full strength of the people of KwaZulu-Natal.  This could only happen if there was a sufficiently forceful budget allocation in order to come to terms with the deprivation of jobs.

Such a robust budget would ensure the safety of food.  It would also ensure job opportunities, which would lead to development.  Let us restore hope to our people in the rural areas, together with those in the cities, lest we all find ourselves, Mr Chairman .. T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Nyambose, you have one minute left].

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works): 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, sir.  I am trying to avoid a situation where we could all find ourselves singing the song of Father Mchunu over there.  In conclusion, I want to thank the Minister, the hon Minister of ours, Minister Singh, and the officials of his Department.  I want to thank them for their expertise and their commitment, which they have shown at this time.  Mr Chairman, I thank you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:.  [We thank you, Father Nyambose].  The House now adjourns until 2 o'clock, but may I request you to be back at five to so that we can start exactly at 2 o'clock.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED AT 12:53
	RESUMED AT 14:02

MRS F X GASA, THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES, TAKES THE CHAIR

RESUMED DEBATE:  VOTE 3 - DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Committee resumes.  Thank you very much for coming back at the right time.  Before I ask Mrs Blose to speak, I would like to say that I have allowed a gentleman in here, as requested by my Minister.  There are unfortunately no facilities for his wheelchair.  Please do not think that I am starting a precedent, but because it is Committee work it needed to be done in this manner.  I would like to welcome you and show you that KZN is a very, very sensitive Province.

We have, however, present members of certain provinces that have been invited by the Speaker.  At an appropriate time we will introduce them so that they will not feel that they have been snubbed by the House.  Can we now start.  Unfortunately we definitely would need to go through the two lists.  So speakers have got to assist us one way or the other.  If I say their time is over, their time definitely will be over.  I will not be kind.

We want to call on Mrs Blose to take the chair, and she is going to take the chair for 12 minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  Take the chair?  Take the floor.

MRS H M BLOSE: 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, order. 

MRS H M BLOSE: TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Madam Chairperson, who is in the chair at present.  The main topic of my speech, which I want to refer to, is the workers on the farms and those who live on the farms.  I am speaking after my brother Nel, he knows that at Dundee they chased away people from a certain place, because they said the land belongs to them.  I am still going to continue, but it is important that he is aware of that.

I want to continue and say, I am very, very sad about the National Party.  The Government which we presently have, has been in power for four years only.  But today, it is able to enumerate all these things which they see that they left undone.  For whom were these things left?

For so many years they were in the chair, for 47 years they were the Government.  Why did they not do all these things?  Did they really think that this was the Government that was going to put right all these things that they left undone?  Today, George Bartlett talks about projects.  We knew nothing about projects, we as the women.  Their wives were dealing with projects.  All these big money projects, they were the people that were dealing with them, not us.  We, the black people, did not receive anything, but today, when they come to this House, they make as if they are innocent people who have never done anything to us.

Thank you, Madam Chair, I thank you as a woman who has a very keen eye as far as women are concerned, and who concentrates on them, especially on the farms.  We, as women on the farms, face a lot of problems.  Since 1994, when we entered this Parliament, we started talking, but until today, these problems have not been solved.

What are these problems?  These problems are the problems of the people who live on the farms.  As they are living on the farms, firstly, I want to say that there is now a different modus operandi that is an ongoing thing there on the farms.  People who live on the farms for 40 or 50 years, but when the time comes when the white person, or the boss, realises that he no longer likes those people, because now it is appropriate for him to give them land, which those people can own, he also now has to ensure that there livestock eats as well as his.  They have a new modus operandi now, they say the farm has been bought by Mr So-and-So.  As far as Mr So-and-So, as I am speaking now, I want to speak about the Buthelezi family.  The Buthelezi and Mdunge families at Dundee, were told all these things.  It was as if the boss was very fond of this family.  This family was fenced off with wire fencing, in order so that they could not get water and they could not get firewood to make fire.  If there is someone in this Parliament who disputes what I am saying, this Parliament can be closed, and we can go to this farm that I am speaking about.  As of now, those people owned 18 cattle, but because they do not have water, they do not have firewood, they are closed in with their cattle as if they are in a cattle kraal themselves.  All their 18 cattle have died.

Why is all this being done?  It is done because they do not want this change that we are entering into.  They are still insisting on the oppression that was taught to them by their neighbours.  As I am speaking about all these things, there are people on the farms who do not know where their cross is and where they have put it, who have not felt freedom impacting on them, they have seen nothing coming to them, because their problems are the same as they were at the time when the Boer Government was in power.  They have not felt happiness and they have not seen any change.

What I am trying to say is that as far as this Department and this Minister of ours is concerned, he is trying by all means to do the things in the manner in which they should be done.  Father Bartlett here, has spoken at length about the issue of money.  Mr Bartlett has spoken at length, but the problem is that our Minister Singh, has only taken over recently.  He, Bartlett, was in the forefront, doing all these manoeuvres that he was talking about, that he is talking about now.  Now, we will not allow all his manoeuvres that he thinks that he is going to use now, because it is now Father Singh who is in charge.  The truth of the matter is that Father Singh took over when there was a lot of problems and ramifications, caused by Father Bartlett.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!  Order!

MRS H M BLOSE:  Right now, the situation pertaining to people that work on the farms, Father Singh, I am asking you to get moving for the Committee, the Portfolio Committee on Agriculture to get moving and have a look at the things that I have referred to.  Nel has so much to say.  He has also chased people away in the last few months.  Indeed, our people have not yet obtained rest there on the farms.

When will they ever obtain rest, because even members of this Parliament, are adopting these tactics, and using them, as if they know nothing about the laws that are going to be passed here.  He is on the Agriculture Committee, but he, himself, has chased people away.  If he would deny this and say that he knows nothing about that, there is a fax which I have, which I could give to him, and he could read it now, which emanates from Dundee, from the office, that is my office in Dundee.

We, here in the land of Phunga and Mageba, we do not have our land.  The people who came and asked us if they could live on our land, they are the people who are controlling all the land.  While we are living peacefully, we are then told, "Move off from here, you are no longer wanted".  I am speaking specifically, and concentrating specifically, on the farms.  I am not talking about all the other things.  We have already spoken about financial and money issues, and we have spoken about all these other things.  Our children that are there, the women, get chased away.  There are families on the farms.  Our children are then not able to go to school, because it is obvious, how are they going to go to school when they have been moved and they are now living on the side of the road, where they are just told, "The land belongs to me".

Our children are placed in very difficult circumstances there.  Who carries that burden and that difficulty?  It is the women, it is not the men.  Nel has so much to say, together with Father George, because they are men.  They are not the people who should be saying all these things.  What in fact happened in 1994 when the Parliament was full of women?  They are the ones who are able to bring these things together and advise each other about them,  because the men have disagreements amongst themselves and eventually have disagreements with us.

Generally, we, women, do not have disagreements, we are able to work together.  If you look at the Peace Package, the people who are able to discuss things together, it is us, the women, we are able to hold discussions.  It starts with us, the women of the IFP, the women of the ANC, and all the parties.  But the men are the ones that are looking askew at each other.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!  I would like us to please attend to what the hon member is saying, because that will enrich our discussion.  I am getting quite a lot of disturbances from here.  Continue, Mrs Blose.

MRS H M BLOSE: 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you very much, Ma, thank you.  I am asking this House that as far as the people from the farms are concerned, let us give them rights to land.  When a person has lived for a certain number of years in a certain place, because they do not know any other place, eventually, those people will be a burden on the Government, they will end up coming here.  Then there are these small houses which have been built for us by Father Miller, those small ones which are in the vicinity of Simba Chips.

That is something that we cannot countenance.  We do not like that at all.  From now, I am asking that the people on the farms are given the right to own land so that even if they are chased away, they are able to remain where they are, because when they are chased away, they come down to the cities.

Lastly, I am asking the women to stand up and fight for their rights.  I am asking them to fight for their rights, because if the women are sitting back, people like Father Mahlobo become very vocal.  They do not sit down and keep quiet.  Then they say, "We are the ones that have been fighting for you".  [LAUGHTER]

Now, as the women, we have fought for equality.  I know that when we talk about the issue of equality, the men fight.  Let us be equal and fight for the things which we should fight for, because even now, some of the men that are here, you can see them sitting here wearing ties, looking smart, and handsome.  The mother of the house got up, started by putting out his socks, followed up with his shoes, then his shirt followed, then his trousers followed, and then she had to decide what underpants he was going to wear.  Because the men think that we, the women, are their servants.  But when I, as a woman, am working, he is very quick to say, well, it goes without saying that the money belongs to the man.  Where does the man get that money from?  Because the money also belongs to me, because I have worked for it.  I am not able to do what I like, because I am supposed to condone all of that.

Let us stand up, as the women, and fight for the rights of our children, and fight for our rights, and fight for rights to land, so that we too have rights to land.  Thank you, Madam Chair, thank you very much.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

AN HON MEMBER:  Your husband must beat you.  [LAUGHTER]

MRS H M BLOSE:  Beat who?  I will fix him up.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would like to call on the hon member Mr F T Dingila, and he has got seven minutes.

MR T F DINGILA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, and members.  I would like to start my speech by commending the Premier of this Province for his dynamic speech, and the bold comments he made yesterday.  I want to assure him that we are very proud of him.  He is not weak, but meek.  He is a real states figure.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR T F DINGILA:  Well, [Your Honour, we heard there were those who had a lot to say yesterday, but if the big dog goes past, the small dog barks].

Mr Chairman, the Minister of Agriculture broke a record in the history of his Department yesterday.  The launching of ~Xoshindlala~, chase away hunger, is a self-explanatory name for the project.  There could not have been a better time for the launching of such a project than now where the oppressed are now the slaves of poverty.

I would like to for example, take a pregnant woman who has got a responsibility for nine months, the responsibility of taking care of the child in her stomach.  Thereafter the child has got the responsibility of feeding himself or herself for the rest of his or her life.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR T F DINGILA:  Yes, if the poor mother has no means of feeding the child correctly, that child right from birth will suffer.  He or she will be very weak.

You find men loitering on each and every corner of the street looking for temporary jobs,. [temporary jobs, because people are hungry].  With such a small budget it is impossible to efficiently run this Department.

Mr Chair, it is a pity that we still have people who hope that criticising your opposition is the best way of defeating him.  That is a monkey game.  Nobody can buy that.  We want people who are practical, not people who will sit between these four walls, as we are here, and throw stones at other people.  Yet, the same people are sitting in glass houses.

Critics must make no mistakes.  After the 1999 elections, sir, the Minister of Agriculture, meaning Mr Singh, who will by then be the Minister of Agriculture nationally,. [because, sir, the IFP will be in control, there will be many posts]. 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR T F DINGILA:  Mr Chair, that is based on the following points:

1.	NATS Government could not meet the needs of the black community during its time of ~Apartheid~ Government.
2.	ANC has failed.  I repeat, ANC has failed to adequately or proportionally allocate funds to various provinces, yet both parties had sufficient chance to exploit the advantage of being the Government of the day.
Now it is the chance of the IFP, and the people will decide during the 1999 elections.

Although most of the farming land still lies in the hands of the minority, we will not sit down and fold our hands and despair.  We must grab the tiniest opportunity and utilise the little land that is available fruitfully.

TRANSLATION:  Chairman, the people are able to own livestock, and they want to own livestock, but they need grazing lands.  They need grazing lands to be fenced.  They need fields, fields that are fenced.  The KwaZulu Government started this, that is the Government that started this programme, which incorporated the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Health and the Department of Welfare.

This caused people to be encouraged.  They got fencing, they were able to fence their fields and gardens, some of them bought tools to work with, some of them bought machines, sewing machines, and various other things.  This happened at a time when other people, whom I am not going to mention by name, were giving people food, such as mealie meal, saying that they were buying votes.

The Government of KwaZulu believed that it is necessary to teach a person to do it for him or herself, rather than giving that person a bag of mealie meal.  T/E

Mr Chair, we are reaping the fruits of the poor governance.

MR I C MEER:  On a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member, I am taking a point of order.

MR I C MEER:  Will you ask the speaker to address you instead of some mythical Mr Chair.  I say this particularly after the powerful speech on gender equality.  We in this House must not assume that the chair is only taken by some male gentleman.  [LAUGHTER]  It is the fifth time I have heard Mr Chair, and in defence of gender equality, I ask the hon member to address you and not some mythical man.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Point taken, hon member.  Can you continue.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR T F DINGILA:  Thank you, thank you.  Point taken.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is it a point of order?

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh thanks.  Can you continue, hon member, but I would like to remind you that you now have six seconds.

MR T F DINGILA:  Lady Chair, we are reaping the fruits of the poor governance of the National Government.  The proof of this is the fact that this is not the only province suffering.  Right through the country there are cries from the community.  It is tough at the top.  People thought running a country is as good as pulling a trigger of an AK47.

Lastly, I would like to once again commend the Minister of Agriculture for having concentrated mostly on the rural areas with this ~Xoshindlala~ project.  This will be a major rescue to the ~Amakhosi~ people who are at present ostracised because of their loyalty to ~Amakhosi~. [~Amakhosi~ are ours.  What do you say, Mama]?  Thank you, Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would like to warn members of the House that I find continued heckling.  Heckling is good, in fact it is parliamentary, but it should not be overdone.  I will ask the Sergeant-at-Arms to take some members out of the House for a few minutes.  Can we call the hon Mr A Rajbansi and I am giving you five minutes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  I thought I might get a bonus.  [LAUGHTER]  In every country, Madam Chair, you know, at election times there is heavy concentration to appease farmers.  It is because of the importance and the contribution they make to the life of a nation.  There is a good phrase, "When the farmer cries, the country cries.  When the farmer suffers because of drought and other hazardous conditions, the country suffers".  Therefore we must protect the greatest treasure a country can ever have, that is our farmers and our agriculture.  Nature has been kind to our country, especially along the coastal areas of South Africa where we have sufficient agricultural land to feed the country.

I want to refer the hon Minister to reports of Unesco, about the future of feeding the world.  The report indicates, contrary to negative suggestions, that the world has enough undertapped land.  If developed it can feed the world's population, at present growth, as at 2000 AD multiplied by two.

I want to congratulate the hon Minister on his appointment as Minister of Agriculture, and as a member of the South African community, of Indian origin, I am more proud.  History will record the role played by the indentured Indian labourers in building the infrastructure of agriculture in our Province.  The role played by Indians from India to build up the infrastructure of our agricultural irrigation in this Province.  I hope that the contribution made by the Indian community will be put in its right place in history.

I am very glad that the hon Minister in his speech refers to the allocation of State land.  I remember about 20 years ago when dealing with the effects of the Group Areas Act, and the manner in which agricultural land was grabbed, taken away from those who genuinely wanted to, shall I say, contribute to agricultural development, Dr Buthelezi described this as white avarice gone mad.

We must demand that this Province, Madam Chair, plays a rightful role in respect of the redistribution of agricultural land.  If we drive along the N3 highway you will find that on the right-hand side, coming from Durban, beautiful agricultural land was not developed, because it was taken away from the so-called non-white farmers and given to white farmers by the National Party at the time.  I know that there were members of the National Party who are seated in this chamber today, after reform started in this country, privately opposed the sale of agricultural land by white farmers to the so-called non-white farmers, even after the whites agreed to sell the land and purchase and sale agreements were signed.

Therefore, restitution of land rights, especially in agriculture must be given the highest priority.  I am glad that the hon Minister is emphasising the promotion of SMME's, small scale farming and rural development.  I want to suggest that an all party delegation from this House travel to India to examine the success India has made in agricultural development, in the advancement of small scale farmers, and especially SMME's and the redistribution of land from those giant landlords who exploited the Indian peasants during the colonial era.

I want to make an appeal, and I think our agriculture together in a partnership with the Department of Health and Education, should ensure that we produce the type of food that is nutritious.

I am glad that the hon Minister is also looking at marketing.  From the rural areas, Madam Chair, we have farmers who bring their produce to the towns.  There are not sufficient opportunities to market the products of the small scale farmers.  I want to suggest to the hon Minister, that we have discussions with the major municipalities so that these people, who come from the rural areas, are afforded the opportunity to market their products.

When the mineral resources of our country diminishes, the saviour of our country will be our farmers.  Therefore we must look after them, they are our greatest asset and our greatest treasure.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for keeping within your time.  Can we now call the hon lady Mrs A Mchunu.  She has seven minutes.

MRS A MCHUNU:  Thank you, Chairperson.  Sorry, the change from Speaker to Chairperson does disturb other members, just like myself.

Teamwork and the intersectoral approach adopted by the Cabinet of KwaZulu-Natal is highly appreciated.  This approach will make our Province a double winner.

I would like to thank the hon Minister of Agriculture heartily for the steps he is taking to fight malnutrition, hunger and poverty.  We will know that malnutrition indicates the shortage of quality food nutrients, especially protein, and to a certain extent vitamins and mineral salts.  Hunger on the other side, refers to a shortage of quality and quantity of food nutrients.

The Ministry of Agriculture has all along been in the forefront of helping people grow their own food, and also helping to sell the surplus.  Food grown has also been used as a cash crop leading to commercialised farming.

It will be remembered that during the depression of 1927 to 1932, when the "poor white" problem was experienced in the Union of South Africa, the Carnegie Commission made a study of the causes of poverty in South Africa, and produced its first Carnegie report.  Unfortunately this study excluded blacks.  One of the recommendations stressed the need for agricultural involvement and food security.  Today the "poor white" of the 1930s are economic giants because of agriculture, and the livelihood of all South Africans depend on them.  That approach of agricultural involvement needs to spread to all the sections of our communities, and I am happy that the Department of Agriculture is doing just that.

The second Carnegie Commission made its studies and surveys and included blacks.  The report and recommendations came in different packages, and was not comprehensive enough.  If the second Carnegie report and recommendations had been as good as those of the first report, there would have been clarity on how to deal with poverty today on a wide scale in South Africa.

Dealing with poor rural communities, and the poor sections of urban communities, with the idea of excellence in agriculture by the Ministry of Agriculture is highly commended.  The budgetary cut of 54% should not deter KwaZulu-Natal people from achieving their envisaged "excellence in agriculture".

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MRS A MCHUNU:  Women in Parliament have a special role to play in dealing with hunger, malnutrition and abject poverty.  That is why we, as women, hail the launch of the ~Xoshindlala~ Campaign, yesterday, by the Ministry of Agriculture.

It will be remembered that in the 1997 Annual Report of the Department of Agriculture it mentioned or reported that soya field studies had been undertaken.  As women and mothers from impoverished communities, we are very excited about these studies, because soya is the gold and wealth of the future.  Soya contributes to health as protein food, and it contains all the essential amino acids.  Of these amino acids, it will be of interest to note that lysine promotes better concentration, and phenylalanine is a neuro-transmitter, and its chemical components transmit signals between the nerve cells and the brain.

With the high rate of accidents on our roads, mostly attributed to alcohol over-indulgence, it would be interesting to conduct a study where people are served with a soya menu before consuming alcohol.  Taverns and restaurants could be encouraged to serve these soya menus to the people who are accident prone, following the use of alcohol.

~Xoshindlala~ Campaign will also assist in promoting the growing of soya as a quality protein food, accessible to all at all levels of the communities.  The infant mortality rate, that is the IMR, remains high, and gives a blanket cover perception that the whole of South Africa is still a developing country.  This perception has to be cleared by ensuring that all babies are born to live, and not to die in the infant stage because of malnutrition.

Vegetable gardens are grown with success now, so we have to concentrate on producing quality food for babies especially, and infants.  Again, cheap soya is grown by people themselves and it will be the answer to all the communities, rich or poor.

The people who are ill and weak, who are on liquid or light diets usually eat porridge or drink Mahewu.  Lack of protein in porridge and Mahewu result in people getting thinner and thinner.  In fact they simply get wasted.  Adding soya to mealie meal or Mahewu will enhance longevity of the weak, and the ill, the poor and the aged.  

As a cash crop, eastern countries, like China, use a lot of soya beans.  If Africa goes for sowing soya beans there is a market in China and the Far East countries.  The Soya Bean Association will contribute that market to the SDI.

Herein I enclose annexures.  Annexure I is Protein, just giving all the nutrients from soya beans.  The second annexure is Breakfast Cereals and Snacks written by 
Lucas Meyer.  That is the lecithin people. 


THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would like the hon member to wrap up.


MRS A MCHUNU:  And the third annexure, is the agricultural budget debate paper which was prepared by Mr M V Ngema, and he intended to deliver this.  It is a detailed account on how we can fight hunger and malnutrition.  I thank you, Madam Chair.


HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!


THE CHAIRPERSON:  We now call on our lady, the hon Mrs J M Downs.  Mrs Downs, you have got five minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  I think it is a great pity that agriculture in particular has suffered such a loss in budget.  We have all talked much about SMMEs, and them being the answer to our economic problems.  The problem is that the greatest opportunity we have for developing SMMEs is in the agricultural sector of our communities.

The other problem that we have, and if I can add my voice to that of Mrs Mchunu, many of our children are undernourished or malnourished.  In fact, many of our adults are undernourished and malnourished.  They just do not have food security.  A lot of this is lack of land certainly, but much of it is due to a lack of knowledge about what to grow, and nutritionally how to balance a diet.

If we do not actually have the wherewithal and the budget to teach these things, it is not going to help our situation at all.  The problem is that it does not only exacerbate our situation in agriculture, it actually exaggerates our situation in health, because it is well-known that TB, which is one of the scourges of KwaZulu-Natal, the spread of TB is helped when people are not properly nourished.  When they are malnourished TB is spread much more easily.

For example, the longevity of life when someone is HIV positive or has full blown AIDS, the profiles between black people and white people are startlingly different in the development of the disease, and it is due to one basic fact, a lack of nutrition.

Education as well will be affected by the lack of budget, because our children, if they are not properly nourished, cannot learn.  They take longer to learn things that they should learn in one year and they repeat years.  It is an actual fact that children suffer brain damage due to a lack of proper nutrition.

I have a great concern about the budget failing in agriculture.  I have a great concern.  I know that the Department is doing the best they can, I know that they are the kind of people that have a real gung-ho attitude and they face problems, and I know that they are putting all of their resources into food security.  But, I just feel that it is not going to be enough, merely because we do not have the budget to fund the kind of proposals that we need to fund.

If I can make an appeal to the Minister of Agriculture, this is one sector where I believe we need to search diligently for outside donors to fund specific projects.  This is one sector where we need to tramp the highways and byways of the world, and actually look for funds to fund food security projects, to fund the garden projects, to fund the soya bean projects, to fund the bean projects, and the lentils, those things which are going to help to properly nourish our children.  It is a pity, because in KwaZulu-Natal we have good land, we have the most usable arable land per capita in the country.  We have the water and we have the abilities.  We just need to be able to teach our people, and if you put that together with enough budget, we can actually do it in this Province.  I know it is a dream of Minister Singh, because he has long said, ever since he took over this post, that KwaZulu-Natal should be the garden Province.

There are other things that we can exploit as well.  I recently met an Italian who was here to try and invest money into things like growing roses and growing flowers for the overseas market, which the Cape are exploiting to great effect.  They are making a lot of money out of it.  These are the kinds of programmes and research projects that we need to be able to fund.

I really do have a great concern and if I can just say, there is a Christian song that many of us sing, which goes this way.  It says, "What is that you have in your hand, God can use it".  If we try, each of us, to look for what we have got in our hands, and particularly in the Agricultural Department.  We have the land, we have the water, we need the know-how, but if we can go and find it and fund it, then we can do it.  Thank you, Madam.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thanks for keeping within your time limit. [We are now going to ask the ~Inkosi~ to talk to us.  We are listening.  We are going to give the ~Inkosi~ eight minutes].

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA:  Madam Chair, the hon Ministers, and the hon members of this House.  May I congratulate the hon Minister of Agriculture on his excellent speech with constructive matters throughout, and his dedicated vision to overcome starvation in the KZN Province.

I today would like to give my hon Minister a new name, ~Xoshindlala~ Singh.  [LAUGHTER]

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: 

TRANSLATION:  Chairperson, we are all singing one song in this House, as I have been sitting here listening, "There is no money, we do not have money".  If we have been deprived of money to this extent, by the National Government, I do not believe that there will be progress.  I do not know where we are going to.  This means that the things which need to be undertaken by this Department, will be curtailed.  As far as the officials employed by this Department, I think a lot of them are going to be retrenched.  They will no longer have work and there will no longer be money to pay them.  We saw this in the Department of Education, we are going to see it here in the Department of Agriculture.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Sorry, ~Inkosi~] there is a car, BNS 621EC.  Could the owner please go and check.  It is blocking someone who really has to go now.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have not been told what it is.  [LAUGHTER] [Forgive me, ~Inkosi~, I will give you back this minute of yours that we have taken.  The ~Inkosi~ my continue].

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: 

THE CHAIRPERSON: [I will ask the ~Inkosi~ to end off, sir].

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA: TRANSLATION:  If all the Departments are complaining about money, to this extent, Chair, sadness comes upon me.  If it were in our power to do so, in this House, this money that is being spoken of, if this hole was here, I would have asked the members of this House for us to go and have a look and really see if there was no money left in the coffers.

If the National Government is able to write off the debts of those who owe money to it, and yet today, we find that it is us who are so poor, I am afraid that the money is there, but that there are certain agendas that are being accomplished.

In your speech, hon Minister of Agriculture, you touched on the importance of the co-operation between blacks and whites in the control of the small farms.  I want to thank the whites, whom I have heard being torn apart in this House, today.  To Father Volker, I want to say that I want to comfort Father Volker and say, my brothers, you who are white, I want to thank you for the role you have played in teaching our people, our black people, how farms should be managed.

I also want to thank our black people who are working together with them in accomplishing such a task.  Our black people will be taught about the land.  They will be taught that it does not matter how small your piece of land is.  They will be taught what ways can be used in order that they are able to develop, and that will create opportunities for our people to increase production in order to fight hunger.  They will be able to have money so that they are able to support their families, and educate their children.

Your Honour, you also mentioned the issue of dips.  If it was to be said in the rural areas, where I come from, if it was said that our cattle will not be able to be dipped, I am in agreement with the hon Bartlett when he says, sicknesses will be rife and our cattle will die.  Whereas cattle to us, is very important, cattle to us, Cele, represents something we are very proud of.  We, who are living in the rural areas, not those who are living in the townships, because their cattle eat plastic packets and banana peels.  There is no health there.

We are saying, we are requesting the National Government of ours, to assist us, and support us, at least for a short time, while we look for ways and means to help ourselves.  This does not mean, Your Honour, that we will fold our hands.  There are things that we can do.  Take money out of our pockets, in order to safeguard our livestock.  But the Government must do something for us, so that we are able to buy the necessary medication in order to keep our cattle healthy, so that they do not have ticks.

Lastly, I want to mention the point that he mentioned, regarding the pounds.  We suffered greatly in the past, if my beast left the cattle kraal and went away, the Boers would take it to the pound and impound it.  If one takes into account where I live, at Gingindlovu, the pound was at Vryheid, but because of your presence, Your Honour, the distances are now much shorter, because we now do not travel more than 60 kilometres.  Where our people suffered, having to pay money for transport and ultimately they had to pay some more money at the pound.  This Department has taken a big step forward.  We applaud this.

At the very conclusion, I say, Mr Chairperson, I want to tell you something that you have not even asked about.  Mr Chairman, I want to say, I want to tell you, that the way that the land is used in countries overseas, there I found that if you buy amadumbe, three amadumbe, they cost R250.  In Taiwan you pay R250 for three madumbes.  We are going to use our land in the appropriate manner.  If we are going to export these madumbe to Taiwan, if we put them into sacks and export them to Taiwan, it is my belief that we could all become rich in this Province.

Lastly, we still need land.  The Government must pull up its socks, because all this that has been said by the hon Minister, regarding land, if we do not get our land back, I do not think that we will own land.  The land which is controlled by the Government must be returned to us.  We are asking the hon Hanekom to pull up his socks.  Thank you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [We are now going to ask umAfrika to address us now.  Father uNdonga J D Mkhwanazi, I am giving you five minutes].

MR J D MKHWANAZI: [Thank you, Madam, Chair.  I thank you in particular for pointing out that indeed I am African.  We are grateful if there are now others who are following us in agreeing that they are African].

Madam Chair, I congratulate the Minister on all the efforts he is making with ~Xoshindlala~, in the true sense of the word.  I support my ~Inkosi~ by naming him ~Xoshindlala~, and hope that he is going to ~Xoshindlala~ in real terms.  Because, [the stomach is what controls a person's life in its entirety].  Even in English we say, the army marches on its stomach.  

Madam Speaker, sir, we also hereby condemn those who destabilise agriculture by killing farmers and their families.

AN HON MEMBER:  Point of order.  She cannot be Madam Speaker, sir.  Thank you.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I appreciate the manner in which the House protects me.  I am beginning to think that I have really undergone some operation.  [LAUGHTER]  The House is refusing to acknowledge me as a woman.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Madam Chair, on a point of explanation.  I think you are being elevated to the position where you should have been.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we allow Mr Africa to continue.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you very much for the correction but [I was saying, please apologise for me to Mama Macingwane, because one has a slip of the tongue in these things].  It was not deliberate.

What is even worse and more objectionable, Madam Chair, is that these criminals, for reasons only known to them, kill and plant pieces of paper implicating APLA.  May I categorically state here and now, the PAC suspended the armed struggle on 15 February 1994.  APLA cadres have been integrated into the National Defence Force.  Of course, others are still languishing in gaol.  Fortunately on that note, the media, this morning reported that the police say those pieces of paper are a ploy to confuse their investigations, and they reject them with the contempt they deserve.

Madam Chair, crime continues to plague our country.  The PAC is not responsible for maintaining law and order.  Wait until the people of South Africa elect us into Government and then you will see how to deal with and obliterate crime in this country.

Finally, I am very happy with three hon members who have taken the wind out of my sails talking about the land.  The Minister has grandiose plans how to improve agriculture, but there is one thing I want to remind the Minister of.  The Minister should know that the majority of the people do not have land.  

TRANSLATION:  The Africans do not have land.  The land was taken.  The land must be returned into the hands of the Africans.  They will do all these things that are mentioned by the Minister.  That is what has to happen, the land must be returned, and it must not be returned by being sold to us, the land must be returned to its owners, and to those who watch over it.  T/E 

The land is entrusted to the nation and the ~Amakhosi~ only hold it in trust. TRANSLATION:  So, all this will not come right if we have not addressed the issue of people having land to be able to plough, to be able to build, to be able to build everything.  I thank all those that have spoken and who were brave enough to speak, because the issue of land is a taboo subject and is not touched.  Thank you.  T/E


THE CHAIRPERSON:  We now call upon the hon Mr M A Tarr, Chief Whip of the House.  You have got seven minutes, sir.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Madam Chair, I would also like to start off by congratulating our Minister on his ~Xoshindlala~ Campaign, which he introduced last night.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  I must congratulate him on a very professional and very well done presentation.  I am sure that if we all put our efforts towards making it succeed, it will be a huge benefit to this Province.

I would like to concentrate on one aspect of the campaign, and that relates to the marketing aspect.  I believe that the State can play a very important role in assisting with marketing by providing the right infrastructure so that the farmers can have access to the markets, and by removing many of the obstacles that face small emerging farmers with regard to marketing.

Just think of the huge obstacles these farmers face, for example, the transport of their goods to markets, the lack of extension services, what to produce, how to produce it and credit facilities that are extremely important.  There is also market information which is also part of knowing what is required on the market, and then also processing facilities, packaging, storage etcetera.

You may very well ask, and looking at these obstacles, how can the State help?  Madam Chair, I believe that we have largely neglected the role that co-operatives can play, because they can do all of the above things.  They can, and already do provide extension.  They provide production inputs.  They provide marketing and processing services, as well as packaging and credit.

At this stage perhaps a word of warning, because those of us who have got some knowledge of agriculture will realise that in the history of co-ops there have been far more failures than success stories.  I believe it is up to the State to actually provide the resources and the inputs to assist co-ops to succeed.

What can the State do?  What can the Department do?  First of all, they can help in the training of managers in co-ops.  We can second extension staff to co-ops to do extension works through the co-ops.  Obviously we need to have a relook at the legislation so that the Registrar of co-ops is able to keep a watchful eye on what is going on.  Credits can be dispensed by the co-ops.  Co-ops can also enter into lending agreements with other institutions, for example, the Land Bank with this new scheme that they have, and also private sector banks.

Another thing which co-ops can do is enter into a marketing agreement with transitional local councils.  I think Mr Rajbansi mentioned earlier on today that if farmers are given access to areas in TLCs where they can market their produce, it will make a huge difference.

I refer members to one example here in Pietermaritzburg, the so-called Farmers' Market.  It is an area near the Royal Show Grounds.  Farmers pitch up there on Saturday mornings to sell their produce.  It is a huge success, and there are many farmers who make a livelihood entirely out of that Farmers' Market on Saturday mornings.

The Department should be talking to the SDIs, because the SDIs are ideally placed to set up processing facilities.  Once you have a processing facility you then have a market for the producer.  Whether he produces tea, or whether he produces cotton, or whether it is vegetables for canning, or whatever the case is, a processing facility provides the market.

The Minister has told us today about the Agricultural Development Trust.  I really believe that the activities of this Trust could and should be co-ordinated with those of the co-operative movement.

Madam Chair, I do not want to keep the House much longer, but I would make a plea to the Minister and the Department to have a fresh look at giving a strong impetus to the co-operative movements, with a lot of State help and underpinning of the co-ops by the State we can use the co-ops as a vehicle to assist many of our emergent farmers.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are now going to call upon the hon member S V Naicker.  Hon member, we are giving you nine minutes.  Thank you.

MR S V NAICKER:  Madam Chair, last week I visited the area where I was born, namely Nkwalini.  I met with some of my Zulu friends and they greeted me in this manner, that if [dying of hunger] within me I got a great sense of relief when I heard this term ~Xoshindlala~.

I therefore want to lay very, very strong emphasis on the fact that this is not merely a slogan, but was born out of honest and committed intentions by the hon Minister and his team.  I therefore want to make a very special appeal, with all the honesty at my command.[brothers and sisters, let us all try to combat hunger].

During last year's Agricultural debate I did state that agriculture falls within the core of development.  We are pleased that the hon Minister continued in the same portfolio, because we have had many changes of Ministers in this particular portfolio.

A brief insight into last year's budget speech, which I have with me, was presented to this House with great enthusiasm but has not totally materialised as expected.  The Agricultural budget which has had a decrease of 29% obviously impacts onto the department's future planning.  In the first instance, I note that the role of infrastructure has been effected.

I would like to know, with respect, that in all given circumstances we are speaking  about the poorest of the poor.  Coming back to the agricultural sector, obviously that particular area where transport is required, where dipping is required and the conveyance of agricultural products, like sugar cane to the sugar mills, if that area is affected what measures are being taken to address that particular issue?  If it is such that they are  negotiating with other departments for the transferral of such exercises, may we know from the hon Minister what actions are being taken?

I read in an article on 6 May 1998, "Emerging farmers in the pound seats".  We must be extremely cautious as to what we state in the press.  I am pleased with the article, but the hon Minister is fully aware of the implications of applications.  The difference between a creditworthy applicant, on the one hand, and on the other hand, perhaps maybe an intercrop farmer, or a subsistence farmer, or a bona fide farmer, is an area that we have to take absolute cognisance of.  I would like the hon Minister to take cognisance of this very particular issue which I am presenting.

Having mentioned that, on page 17 of last year's budget speech, the hon Minister made some very well intended comments as far as the land issue in this Province is concerned.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member, can I ask you to speak into your mike.  Thanks.

MR S V NAICKER:  Madam Chair, I want to quote from the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Synthesis report.

		Land use and agricultural potential.  The generally favourable agricultural potential as a Province is reflected in the following statistics.  75% of the total area is potential farmland.  17% of the 7 million hectares of agricultural land, 13% of total area is potentially arable with 85% actually given over to field crops.  6,5% of the land is best suited to forestry.  76,5% is classified as natural pasturage and is mostly used for grazing livestock.

That is in brief.  What concerns us today, as I have heard from the hon Mrs Downs and the hon Mr Mkhwanazi is the severity of the land issues.  If I go back onto page 17 of last year's budget speech, and take note of what we are faced with today with regards to land in this Province, I am extremely concerned as to why to this very day, four years from the unfolding of a new democracy this issue has not been resolved as yet.

How do we expect the hon Minister, and all in his administration to function, and to function satisfactorily without the total control of land within our own Province.  If I am correct, I would like to know from the hon Minister if in the Western Cape, Mpumalanga and the Eastern Cape if their land issues have been resolved?  If it has been resolved, how did it happen that their issues were resolved?  Yet the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, where 25% of the population of South Africa lives, the issue has not been resolved.  Somebody somewhere must be accountable for this.  Therefore I want to impress upon the portfolio committee, together with their counterpart at national level, to begin agitating constructively.  We cannot continue to labour one issue.  It must be resolved as far as agriculture is concerned.

I come back to the other issue, Madam Chair.  We have established the invaluable service of agricultural technicians.  What plan of action has the Department in store for establishing funding sources for additional technicians and the need for ongoing training in cane husbandry etcetera?  Would it not therefore be advisable to review this arrangement that it may be more appropriate and effective for Government to fund the extension programme, but make SASEX responsible for the implementation of an agreed programme.

The hon Minister is fully aware of these implications, and the importance of partnerships with such organisations.  I want to ask the hon Minister, although it does not fall totally within his ambit, but given the circumstances we have in this Province, we do not have a Minister of Water Affairs, neither do we have a Minister of Land Affairs, the very issue I spoke about earlier on.  We do not have a Minister of Land Affairs here.  Naturally on one shoulder he has got land affairs, and on the other shoulder he has got water affairs.

The hon Minister of National Water Affairs came to the North Coast to Umvoti, he inspected the area, listened to strong representations, raised the expectations of people as far as a dam was concerned, and I would like to know, Madam Chair, through the Minister, if there is any progress at all?  If anybody, it is this hon Minister that knows full well if he reflects upon the 1990 drought disaster that this Province was faced with, it becomes absolutely imperative for a project of this nature, notwithstanding the results of El Nino which was mentioned, and which was topical.  Thank the good Lord, that we were not faced with that disastrous drought.

The other thing, Madam Chair, I would like to know from the hon Minister, which falls on his other shoulder, what has happened to the closure of the Glendale Sugar Mill?  In South Africa the sugar industry, and particularly in this Province, you have the Ntumeni sugar mill, and I have fought hard with many authorities because it is on the outpost of the Eshowe area, and the closure will have an effect on the entire Eshowe region.  

Likewise, the Glendale Sugar Mill being another small sugar mill which was closed recently.  When a sugar industry of this nature that existed for some 135 years, and all of a sudden due to the economic situation a mill is closed.  Was there consultation with all the role-players?  Has there been satisfactory negotiations with the growers?  What happens to the workers that have been there for so many years?  We also find that from an agricultural point, there is a debate between organic sugar cane and the ordinary sugar cane.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can I remind the hon member to wrap up.

MR S V NAICKER:  I want to appeal, Madam Chair, to the hon Minister and we will give him all the assistance that is required to address these issues.  I want to compliment him on his report, and I fully support his report because I know him, and I know his report is well and honestly intentioned.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON: [We are asking Induna Baba Ntombela, sir, we are giving you eight minutes].

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): TRANSLATION:  Thank you very much, Chair, for the opportunity to speak regarding such a respectable Department, which is led by Minister Singh, who has created history by starting a programme to combat hunger.

Now, Chair, I am going to speak directly, and speak about things which are needed by the stomach of every person, whether you are wealthy, or whether you are poor, but your stomach needs to be fed.  Chair, food that one gets from the soil.  Firstly, the soil needs to be worked on.  If you are going to work on the soil, you need to make preparations.  You need to have implements with which you are going to till the soil.  You need tractors.  You need ways to make the soil fertile.  All these things, Chair, and your hon House, need the availability of money.

Chair, I do not want to say too much about the small group that plants sugar cane on the Coast, because their aim is to make a financial profit.  They are not even concerned about food, because they will live from the profit that comes from the sugar cane.  But I am talking about people who are poor, who are living in areas where sugar cane is not planted.  Because when one talks about agriculture, one is not only talking about sugar cane, one is talking about the planting of mealies, the planting of beans, the planting of amadumbe, the planting of potatoes, those are the things which the community can live on, juko beans, all these things which are necessary.

Firstly, hon Chair, let me state it very clearly, that the hon Premier did a historic thing by appointing the hon Singh to be in charge of this Department, because it is important that you do not appoint somebody who does not have the knowledge.

My thanks go to the hon Premier of this Province, for appointing the appropriate person to be in charge of this Department, that is Singh.  There is no-one who does not know that it was the Indians who fist took steps to combat hunger and who used agriculture, more than any other race that is present, whether it be whites, whether it be blacks, or whether it is some other race, but it was the Indians who first started.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Interjections.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): [What is happening here]?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!  I want to say that I am aware that the Premier had to do what he did, and the Minister has done what he has done.  Please can we put up with that, because I know that and you know that they are under pressure.  I could live with this with everybody.  Can you continue.  I am ruling that you continue.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A RAJBANSI:  Madam Chair, on a point of order.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): [I will request, Chair, that you give me the minutes that have been wasted, so that I can use them].

THE CHAIRPERSON: [I will give them to you].

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member, can you take your seat while we take a point of order.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I notice there is a lot of disgruntlement on my right-hand side, and I move without notice that in respect of the matter that was commented on, the Rules be waived and adopted.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Mr Ntombela, can you continue.  Is there a point of order?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Point of order.  Madam Chair, in this House we have created a tradition that we are all first and foremost members of this Parliament.  I understand that the hon Mr Rajbansi is trying to smooth feathers, and not to cause any unhappiness during this debate.  I respect that, but I think at the same time let us not throw our traditions to the wind that easily.  Let us keep to it.  She should be subjected to the same Rule.  Let us not throw our traditions out the door that easily.  Those same traditions serve us very well in difficult times.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your point is taken.

THE PREMIER:  Sorry, Madam Chairperson.  I am really sorry for doing what I did.  I was not aware, I was just rushing to talk to the Minister.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for reminding us, Mrs Cronje.  I really do say we need to look at this, but it is on that very strength that I pardoned him, because I was aware that he must have been under pressure for something.  But, it is not a matter of currying favour.  Can we continue with our list.  We still have another list to get through. [Mr Ntombela, carry on speaking.  I will give you all your time which has been wasted].

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip):

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Chair.  Let me remind this hon House of yours that while there was the KwaZulu Government, which no longer exists, which was led by the Prince of KwaPhindangene, the community here in KwaZulu, benefitted greatly, because the Prince founded programmes, in all the 26 regions, which resulted in there being things to assist the poor community.  In all the regions, Chair, there were tractors, which assisted the community.  There were programmes put in operation which resulted in the Department of Agriculture being able to store seeds and manure, so that the community could be assisted.

I know that today there are many people in this Province who remember the Prince of KwaPhindangene.  Now this is no longer available where the hon Minister of Agriculture is in charge.  Then, even though not all the community was working, it was not the same as it is today.  Then the community could live off the sweat of their brow, even if they were not employed.  Today there are no tractors.  There is not even one region which possesses tractors for the community.

I have already said, Chair, that the hon Premier, did something historic by appointing the hon Minister to be in charge of this Department.  I am requesting the hon Minister of the Department, to please remember the history of Shenge, and work as Shenge did.  Tractors must be bought, even though it is difficult.  The Government which is led by the ANC, has closed off the money and said people must be retrenched.

The Minister has said in his speech that his Department does not intend retrenching employees from the Department.  I applaud that, Your Honour, that in your Department, nobody is going to be retrenched.  People will continue working as they should.

Chairman, there are many people who were trained at the iseCwaka School, who were trained in agriculture.  That school was founded by Doctor Buthelezi.  Those people, I say to the hon Father Singh, create more opportunities, so that some of those farms can be gained by those people that were trained, that were trained in agriculture, because they are sitting at home and they are unemployed.  The farms are being monopolised by so-and-so.  [LAUGHTER]

Examples used to be made in agriculture.  It is necessary, hon Minister, as we trust you, as you have already shown and won our trust, and shown that you will lead this Department in a trustworthy fashion.  Examples should be made in the different areas, in agriculture, in all the areas, the people must be able to teach themselves, because there is no work.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [I request the hon member to finish off].

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip):

TRANSLATION:  I sympathise very much with you, hon Minister.  Lastly, before I sit down, let me say that I sympathise, because the Government, this Government, that is led by the ANC, has started a campaign that all civil servants must be retrenched.  If you are steadfast in that, you will not retrench civil servants.  The ANC will get up to something to attack you in whatever way possible, because you are steadfast and you say you are not going to retrench people. 

We of the IFP, we say, we do not want civil servants to be retrenched.  We do not want retrenchments of civil servants, because the majority of the money, it is known that the majority of the money is being taken in robberies that come from there, from ~Umkhonto~ ~weSizwe~.  There is no money because of Mkhonto, there is no money. 

Then they talk about, we remember them.  We can remember then now and remember them by eating chicken legs.  I can slaughter a fowl and say I remember them.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

AN HON MEMBER: [Madam Chair, I want to ask whether the hon member will take a question]?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!  Order!  Excuse me, hon member, your time has already expired.  I am sorry.  

AN HON MEMBER:. [Thank you, Ma, but we ask you to be quicker, because it should not happen like this].

THE CHAIRPERSON: Order!  [I thought you saw how quick I was.  Thank you.  Order]!

HON MEMBERS:  Interjections.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  The Gandaganda has no steering and even has no brakes.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!  Hon members, order please.  We still have the Minister to respond.  We still have a full list on Transport.  You have had your time, and nobody is going to leave this House before we have gone through the speakers' list on Transport.  I am now calling the Deputy Chairperson of Committees, Mr T S Mohlomi.  Baba, you have 15 minutes.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Sometimes it is very, very difficult to participate in a debate after Baba Mahlobo has spoken, because you do not know where to start.  [LAUGHTER]  Another reason why it is difficult is that many of the things have already been covered by other speakers.  I will try and be brief and not take a lot of time, because most of the matters have already been covered.  If I happen to repeat what has been said, I think the Minister will take that as trying to emphasise that particular issue.

Once more, I am standing to participate in the debate on the Agriculture vote.  It has been four years now since we established this Legislature, and the question that I am asking myself is what have we delivered to our people, especially the rural poor, by way of uplifting their standards of living, and general improvement in the areas they live in.

It is common knowledge, Madam Chair, that our Province is predominantly rural.  Of course many people find themselves in the so-called rural-urban fringe.  Those are areas which are characterised by huge informal settlements, lack of infrastructure, squalor, crime, violence and many other social ills.  To a large extent these areas have rural conditions and they also need our attention.  I, however, want to focus on the real rural areas.

It is again common knowledge that ~Apartheid~ created two worlds in one country.  The first world, which is mainly urban, well resourced, well looked after and white dominated.  On the other hand, ~Apartheid~ created the third world, which is predominantly rural, poor, full of unemployment, not well cared for and black.  This was the idea of those who were the architects of grand ~Apartheid~.  The rural areas, except for those areas which belongs to the white commercial farmers, were set aside for the so-called Bantustans, another Verwoerdian philosophy of ~Apartheid~.  These are areas which were nothing else but labour reservoirs on which no one could eke out a living.  These were dust bowls in which our people had to live.  Through their influx control laws, the ~Apartheid~ Government made sure that our people remained on these dust bowls and in the process put even more pressure on that small piece of land on which they had to squat.  This is what we have inherited, Madam Chair, and our greatest challenge is to undo this.

This then brings me to the next question, that is what have we done over the last four years to address this situation?  Last week I attended a meeting of the NCOP in Cape Town, and I received a document that set out the challenges facing the Department of Land Affairs and Agriculture, but primarily the Agriculture Directorate under that Department.  The first among those challenges is broadening access to agriculture to ensure equity, and I underline equity.  The second one is job creation.  Thirdly is economic growth.  Fourthly, is to eradicate poverty, and lastly, to ensure food security for all.  These are the five challenges which have been put forward by the National Department of Land Affairs and Agriculture, but especially the Agriculture Directorate of that Department.

Indeed these are serious challenges, and noble ideals if we can achieve them, but the question is how far have we gone in trying to achieve these objectives of dealing with these challenges?  I must say, that in my opinion we have done nothing thus far.

Instead of complaining about our inability to meet those challenges effectively, I wish to offer some ideas on how he can at least begin to deal with those challenges.  

I believe, Madam Chair, that the backbone to achieving our objectives and dealing with these challenges is development of small emerging farmers in rural areas.  What is our major obstacle to the development of small emerging farmers?  I would say that it is funding.  We do not have money.  Go to any rural community, or group of small farmers and ask them what assistance they need the most.  Invariably they will say to you that they need money.  Of course, as Government, we cannot go around dishing out cheques to small needy farmers.  However, I believe that through funding institutions, such as the Land Bank and private sector involvement, we can encourage the financing of small emerging farmers.

I was quite happy just recently to receive a briefing by a representative of the Land Bank who was informing us about the restructuring of the Land Bank and the changing of its funding policies, and packages.  They are designing new packages that will make it possible, for the first time, to offer loans and extend credit facilities to small emerging farmers.  This is a new innovation, and I wish to state here that we welcome that.

Although the loans they propose to give to small farmers are at this stage very, very small, I think one member did mention that they are proposing to give something like R250 to R500, and each person will graduate depending on how he or she repays that loan.  Those loans are pretty small if you look at them, but I believe they are a start in the right direction.

Secondly, I would seriously call for the engagement of the private sector by our Provincial and National Government to make it possible for the private sector to begin to bend its rules, when it comes to credit extension to small emerging farmers.  The late hon member Joe Slovo was a very good example when it came to housing.  He was able to sit down and talk to the financial institutions to be able to provide loans, even to people who could not afford to get loans, who were not eligible for loans because they did not have enough security.  He was able to engage the private sector and to some extent, force them to grant loans to people for housing needs.

We should do the same when it comes to the financing of small emerging farmers.  An incentive scheme to attract the private sector financial institutions should be investigated and negotiated with all the stakeholders to achieve this goal.  I believe it is possible to do that.

Of vital importance for us, as the Government of this Province, is to ensure that the resources at our disposal are used effectively, and we begin to shift our focus in terms of distribution of these resources towards the poor hitherto disadvantaged communities.  I do not see that beginning to happen on the ground.  I am referring here to the services that are provided by the Department of Agriculture, such as the extension services, funding of small rural development projects, such as women's co-operatives that are engaged in many different types of projects, such as sewing co-operatives, candle-making co-operatives, and many other smaller co-operatives.  I believe here that we can make a meaningful contribution in order to ensure that people have money in their pockets through those projects.

We must then begin to give more support to these projects.  Fund-raising from the private sector and sponsorship by the private sector of such projects must be done by the Department to help these rural communities.  Our extension officers must begin to be visible in the traditionally black rural communities.

Madam Chair, I know that there are many real obstacles that hamper the performance of our extension officers, such as lack of resources, like vehicles, telephones, computers, and stuff like that, modern technology which will help them to reach out to a lot of people.  However, I believe we need to begin to invest in these resources to ensure that we address the plight of our rural communities.

The second most important challenge is job creation in rural areas.  I believe that if we can begin to implement some of the suggestions that I have made, we can then begin the war against rural unemployment.  Of course spurious assertions have been made in this House that the laws which are being passed by National Parliament, such as the Extension of Security of Tenure Act, the Labour Relations Act, the Employment Equity Bill, Basic Conditions of Employment Act are destroying jobs, not only in the manufacturing and mining sectors, but also in the agricultural sector of our economy.

I just want to address this, because if we do not respond to it people may get a very, very warped interpretation of what these Acts are.

This assertion, Madam Chair, makes me very angry, because what it says to us is leave things as they are.  Do not bring about any change, and we, the business community, will keep our employees employed.  This I regard as very serious blackmail by the private sector, and as a representative of our people here, I am not prepared to accept it.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR T S MOHLOMI:  What is the situation that we are required not to interfere with it, to leave it as it is?  Firstly, is land hunger for our black rural communities.  Our people were forcibly deprived of their land and many of them were turned into farm labourers on the very same land that they and their forefathers once owned.  They have been turned into farm labourers, and once they are old and cannot work any more, having devoted their whole life to the enrichment of the farming community, we are told we must allow them to be kicked out of those farms and live by the roadside.

The hon member here Mrs Blose made a very, very eye-opening report to this House about what is happening in the rural areas, where people are being kicked out and are forced to live next to the freeways.

AN HON MEMBER:  By the DP.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Is that the freedom our people fought for?  I say no.  Is this what we want to continue to happen to our people?  Of course some people want it to continue, but I am sure that we of the ANC, and the majority of the people of this country are totally against this.

The reality though is that evictions of farm workers is not something that has started after the promulgation of these laws.  It has been going on for decades, and nobody was prepared to do or say anything about it, because farm workers were not regarded as human beings, but as mere tools and sources of cheap labour for the white commercial farming community.  This must come to an end, Madam Chair.

AN HON MEMBER:  And now.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  These laws are there to ensure access to agriculture and equity above all.  Another thing that those who are critical of these laws forget to mention or deliberately forget to mention is that they are a product of extensive negotiations between all stakeholders.  These are not just ideas of the so-called communist MPs or Ministers.  Gone are the days when big brother from Pretoria would decide where people are going to work, sleep, what they are going to eat etcetera.  The NEDLAC, which is the National Economic Development on Labour Council, today is a forum where all these laws come from, and in this NEDLAC we have representatives from labour, from business and Government.  Even other organs of civil society are allowed to make their inputs to all that is going on at NEDLAC.  So it is not an idea from somebody that we must have the Employment Equity Bill, or we must pass this kind of an LRA.

In fact, in the history of this country, the Labour Relations Act is a very, very good example of democracy at work.  It is the first Act of its kind to have been promulgated by National Parliament which was as a result of thorough negotiations between all major stakeholders.  It is not just somebody from Tito Mboweni or from whoever, it was a product of negotiations.

The question then is who are these people, and who do they represent who are telling us that these laws are unacceptable?  The only conclusion I can draw is that these are people who are yearning for the good old days.

AN HON MEMBER:  They are gone forever.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  And in order to bring back those good old days, they are prepared to blackmail our democratic order by dismissing our people.  In fact it is a common saying, if you go to workers, that when they are retrenched the bosses say go to your Mandela and look for work.  That is what they say.  This is nothing but blackmail.  We are not going to take this lying down, or people are not going to take this lying down, and I am sure we will see what is going to happen.

Finally, Madam Chair, I wish to touch on the food security issue.  In this regard, I wish to welcome the ~Xoshindlala~ Campaign, and really hope it will not end in the boardrooms, but will be taken to the people, and when we evaluate it in six months to come, as starting from yesterday, we will be able to count achievements and not failures, because of this or that particular problem.

I also want to touch on the issue of farm security.  It concerns all of us that people are dying, farmers are being killed, but not only farmers are being killed, workers are being killed as well in the rural areas.  A good example, recently bodies were dug up in Ingwavuma.  Those bodies were bodies of workers.  The people who were aware of those deaths could not say anything, because they themselves feared that they might be killed.  So when we talk about farm security, we must not look at the one side of it.  Both workers and farmers are dying in those areas.

I mean even big companies such as Huletts were also implicated.  It tells us a lot about what has been happening in the past, and still continues to happen, Madam Chair, and this is not new.  Remember 1959, the Natal farm labour scandal where people were being killed and buried on the farms.  So it is not something new.  When we talk about farm security therefore, we have to be careful, and that farm security must not just concentrate on protecting the lives of farmers alone, but workers too, and they too must be part of whatever security measures we set up on those farms.

Lastly, in conclusion, Madam Chair, I wish to support the passing of this budget vote and hope we shall improve on what we have done thus far with the money that has been given to us by the National Government.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before I give the Minister time to reply, I would like to remind the House that the use of cellular phones is banned in the House.  I have heard a few cellular phones.  Please, I do not take kindly to cellular phones.  Thank you.  I am handing over to the Minister for his reply to the debate.  Thank you.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Thank you very much, Madam Chair.  Madam Chair, I would first of all like to apologise to my Colleague, the hon Minister Ndebele, whose debate should have started at 3 o'clock this afternoon, but in keeping with what he and his Department promote, the concept of Arrive Alive, we have taken it a bit easy in this debate so that we arrive alive at this particular point.  [LAUGHTER]

Madam Chair, I would like to thank all the members who have participated in this debate.  I believe it has been a very constructive debate, even if there were certain criticisms that were levelled against the Department or the Ministry.  If there were criticisms, I would take it in the spirit in which they were intended.

I would like to thank the representatives of all the political parties, without exception, who unanimously supported this budget, and support the direction and the vision which we have mapped out for the Department of Agriculture.

The hon Mr Bartlett did indicate that he had another personal commitment and he is not in the chamber here with us.  There were a number of issues that were raised, specific issues, but I have decided to, for the sake of brevity, and for the sake of getting the Transport show on the road, and for the sake of getting our shopping bags filled with fruit and vegetables, to just isolate a few points which I think were raised by most of the hon members of this House.

One of the issues that was raised in general is the whole question of the distribution of State land.  As I had indicated in my introductory remarks, this is cause for great concern, not only by me.  I am glad that I have the support of the House, the unanimous support of the House to take this matter forward to the National Department of Land Affairs.  As I said earlier on, we cannot allow the State to have land, and as much as 275 000 hectares of agricultural State land, in their possession when so many members in this House here have indicated that there is a crying need for suitable land for agriculture.

I would like to impress upon and implore the Chairperson of the Agriculture Portfolio Committee, the hon Mr MacKenzie, to convene a meeting as soon as possible so that this matter of State land distribution can receive top priority.

Madam Chair, the hon Mr Mohlomi raised a few issues, and I think somewhat tried to create the impression that nothing much has been done in Agriculture.  I would like to dispel that immediately.  Quite a lot of work has been done, but I accept that a lot of work still has to be done, and I would require the co-operation of all the members of this House.  In so far as obtaining private sector co-operation, we have made a positive step in that direction.  You heard of the Agricultural Development Trust that we spoke of last night which will incorporate private sector, national and international donors.  We hope that even if international donors want to ring-fence certain projects, be it a dipping project or fencing, they will be given the opportunity to do that through this Agricultural Development Trust.

I want to thank all the members, Madam Chair, for the support that they have given in highlighting, to this House, and to the hon members of this Legislature, that the budget that has been allocated to Agriculture is not sufficient for us to carry out all the activities that we have planned for the year.  Particularly, the hon Mr Nel indicated that we should take note of the multiplier effect of agriculture, and I am sure members appreciate the fact that it has a multiplier effect, particularly in rural communities.  I am hoping that we can impress upon the Budget Council, the Finance Portfolio Committee, that more funds should really be allocated to Agriculture.

Dipping services was another matter that was raised by quite a few members.  It is a cause for concern.  If we have to stop the dipping services it will have an effect on the rural communities in particular.  We all know that cattle in the rural areas is a means of income, it is a means of resource, and it is also a means of food for people in those areas.  We dare not allow cattle to die in their thousands in those areas because we cannot provide dipping services.  Hopefully we will be able to engage the Cabinet on this.  We will make every endeavour to see if we can get more funds.  I have received a note from the Premier which was quite positive, and I hope that we will be able to take this forward and not come to a stage where we will have to curtail these services completely.

I want to thank all members for their support of the ~Xoshindlala~ Campaign.  I want to assure them, Madam Chair, that it is not just something that is written on paper.  It is a policy that we are going to implement.  It is a policy that not only the Department of Agriculture is going to implement, but I expect every hon member of this House to lend his weight to.

HON MEMBERS:  Including Dumisani Makhaye.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Including the hon Mr Makhaye and other members on the other side of the House.  I am appreciative of the fact that they have given us their support, and every member supports the ~Xoshindlala~ Campaign.

I can assure the hon Mr Mohlomi that we will have regular report back meetings with the Portfolio Committee so that we know where we are going.  If there are failures I think we must admit it, but may I remind all members that this vision that we have set out for ourselves is one that is geared to 2020.  Nothing is going to happen overnight, but at least we have started the process and we need your support with that.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture and Housing):  Madam Chair, the Glendale Sugar Mill issue was raised by the hon Mr Naicker.  May I just remind this House that yes, the Glendale Sugar Mill which operated for about 130 odd years was closed down, but at the time of its closure, which was quite recent, it was in the hands of private ownership.  We impressed upon the owners of the Glendale Sugar Mill that the closure of that mill would have a serious impact, not only on the sugar industry, but on all the people that reside within those communities.  However, they indicated that after doing all the necessary feasibility studies it was not viable for them to continue operating that mill.  They also assured us that they had consulted with all the relevant stakeholders, labour, local communities, the sugar cane growers with regard to the closure.  But notwithstanding that, the hon Mr Naicker has raised the issue of organic farming, and I have submitted a document on behalf of the people who are interested in organic farming to the hon Deputy President Mbeki, to see if we can obtain some funding from the RDP for that particular project.  So that matter, hon Mr Naicker, is well in hand.

I will assure hon members of this House, who have participated in this debate, that the issues I have not touched on because of limited time, I will correspond with them individually.  I will also make it my duty to attend the first Agriculture Portfolio Committee where we can have further discussions on some of the issues that were raised here.

I want to thank you, Madam Chair, for the manner in which you have conducted the proceedings here.  I also want to thank the hon Mr Dlamini for the manner in which he conducted the proceedings earlier on in the day.  Thank you to all members for the commitment that you are showing to Agriculture.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Ladies and gentlemen, hon members, this brings us now to the close of the debate.  Thanks for all your kind words hon Minister.  This brings us now to the end of vote 3 on Agriculture. 

Now we will proceed with vote 12 on Transport.  Before I do that, I would like to acknowledge, in this House, the presence of the following gentlemen and ladies.  In case I do not pronounce their surnames correctly, they will definitely pardon me.  It is the Consul-General of the USA Mr F Hassani, who is up there in the gallery.  It is the Danish Consul-General Mr Pér Bjorvig.  I have problems there.  I am sorry for that.  Then it is the Indian Consul Mr M K Lokesh.  We are very happy that you have made time available to be with us.  Then we have the North-West Province MEC for Transport and Civil Aviation, Mr F P Vilakazi.  We also have Dr Emmanuel Nwadike, a former Professor of Engineering at the University of Miami, USA, now President of PAWA Complex International.  We also have amongst us Mr Michael Brown, PAWA Complex International South Africa Limited, Vice President of Finance and Director of Administration.

We are very happy to see that the gallery is full.  It is for you that we are doing this work, and we are happy that you take a keen interest in how we handle your matters, the matters of the State.  You are welcomed by this entire House and we are very happy for your presence.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  On a point of order, Madam.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is there any disorder?

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Well, it is a point of privilege perhaps, because unfortunately we have heard the names, but some of us have not had the privilege of seeing these people's faces.  Be that as it may, we welcome them.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for supporting the Chair on behalf of the House.  It is not easy to make them stand up, because they were present during the last debate.  As I have said, they take a keen interest in what we are doing.  Some of them specifically come for Transport, but they were very happy to stay on for Agriculture.  So thank you very much for your support.  If there are other members whose presence I have not made known, I would like on behalf of the House and the Chair to apologise, but assure them that they are very welcome.  The words that I have used to those that I have acknowledged, are words which I would use to each and every one of you here who is not a member of the House.  Thanks.

We will now proceed with vote 12 on Transport.  I am going to usher in the hon Minister of Transport, Mr J S Ndebele, who will speak for 30 minutes.  Thank you for your patience, Mr Minister.  I echo what our last Minister said.  Thanks.

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1998.

VOTE 12 - THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Madam Chair, I am a very patient man, and let me also congratulate the Minister of Agriculture on his vote.

Hon members, distinguished guests, particularly my colleague and my counterpart in the Province of North-West Mr Vilakazi, who, by the way, is the one who owns the buses that Mr Gwala, the hon member, travels in Ikwezi, and the Consulate representatives, ladies and gentlemen.

It is with mixed feelings that I present the 1998/1999 budget for the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Transport.  Pleasure at what we have achieved and sadness at what this year's budget represents.

INTRODUCTION

We are entering the final lap in the term of office of the KwaZulu-Natal Government, and the past four years have arguably been the most industrious epoch this Province has seen.  The KwaZulu-Natal Department of Transport is proud of its contribution to the development and the improvement of the quality of life of our people.

We have made tremendous strides in every sector of transport and I salute this Legislature, and the people of this Province for supporting and responding to my Department's programmes.  The status of the transport sector has developed into a topical and priority issue in the public eye.  My Department is fully committed to advancing our dictum of "Prosperity through Mobility", in every single sector of transport.  But more than that, we are determined to keep the promises we make.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Madam Chairperson, since the commencement of office in 1994, a development debate has raged in KwaZulu-Natal, and particularly in this Legislature.  In many ways, there exists two provinces in KwaZulu-Natal.  The underdeveloped areas of KwaZulu, and the first world Natal component.  The challenge of this Government was to maintain the first world status of Natal, and also undo ~Apartheid~ planning and the development deficit that have kept vast rural areas of KwaZulu trapped in the 17th Century.

Statistics released by the Labour Market Commission indicate that 95% of the poor in South Africa are African, and 65% of the Africans are poor.  We have all acknowledged that true progress cannot occur while this dichotomy exists and while more than 50% of our people live without the most basic of basic needs.

It is a stark reality that 21% of the poorest in the country live in KwaZulu-Natal and over 75% of the weakest and most vulnerable people live in rural parts of the Province.  The bitter pill to swallow is that 43% of our economically active rural population are unemployed.

The delivery of essential services is of course the first step to reversing these disparities with the entry of schools, clinics, electricity, telephones, welfare services and water facilities in rural areas.  But, Madam Chair, what factor serves as the catalyst for all development and delivery of services in rural areas?

Let me quote the words of our hon Premier at our Rural Roads Report-back Summit last year, and I quote:

		The KwaZulu-Natal Cabinet is aware that without roads, rural populations cannot access existing public facilities...  Without access to basic needs like health, education and welfare, rural communities are condemned to a lifetime of poverty and neglect.  We recognise that building and maintaining roads is often the single biggest capital investment into rural areas, but without roads, our ability to deliver other primary services will be limited.

This Legislature too has acknowledged that transport has a critical role to play in transforming underdevelopment to development and in bridging the chasm between the two worlds in our Province.

It is in this light that I will raise a matter of grave concern which has threatened to cripple rural development in KwaZulu-Natal.  In 1997/1998, the Department of Transport received a budget of R597.8 million.  Consensus from this Legislature and from our Cabinet led to this budget being bolstered by a special Cabinet allocation of R100 million in support of Roads for the Rural Development Programme and road safety initiatives.  This R100 million was promised for three years.  

For this year, we have a budget of R444 million, a 30% cut compared to last year.  If this is not severe enough, the additional Cabinet allocation has not been forthcoming.  The Provincial Treasury was unable to honour the R55 million of the pledged R100 million, and as a result, our rural development programme is forced to limp along on the R45 million my Department raised through an increase in motor licence fees.

With the decrease in this year's budget, the Department of Transport has to operate on only 40% of what we need to function effectively.  The R209 million reduction in our budget is in reality a reduction in Rands spent on road construction, maintenance and service to the public.

What does this mean in effect?

The sharp reality is that rural populations will continue to stagnate and under-perform as we cut back on delivery programmes.  The majority of people will continue to live without access to social services, such as clinics, schools and public transport.

Road crashes resulting from poor road conditions and inadequate enforcement will steadily increase.  A CSIR investigation has revealed that 20% of all collisions in South Africa are caused by bad road conditions.  Of course the other 80% are caused by human error.

Vehicle operating costs will increase as the quality of roads deteriorate and these, undoubtedly, will be passed on to workers through price hikes and increased fares for public transport.

Let me use an example of the impact of the budget cut on a road that we frequently travel on, the Main Road 47, or the R66 and R68 between Eshowe and ~Ulundi~.  Our engineers report that the Eshowe/~Ulundi~ road is in a fair condition.  This means that although there are surface cracks and potholes, the foundation layers of the road are still sound.  It is due to have its surface resealed in 1998.  As with all roads in the same situation, this will not happen.  The condition of the road will deteriorate markedly, to the point that it would require full rehabilitation.

The asset value of the Eshowe/~Ulundi~ road is R87 million.  This will depreciate to R62 million by 2005.  For road users, the increased potholes and uneven road surface will result in an increase in vehicle operating costs along this road from R140 million per annum to R164 million by 2005.  This will equate to a per trip cost increase of R18 for an average 1.6 Sedan and R28 for a kombi taxi and a staggering R66 for a heavy vehicle by the year 2005.

Road users would be further inconvenienced by frequent detours or one-way traffic stoppage as patching is required more and more frequently.

Journey time between Maritzburg and ~Ulundi~ will increase significantly.  Further, we will not be in a position to repair fencing, replace road studs, carry out line marking, grass cutting and guard rail repairs, all vital to road safety.  Last year, there were 40 deaths on this road, and this year the road will become even more dangerous to travel on.

Had the Department of Transport received a more appropriate allocation, we would have been in a position to reseal the road at a cost of R4,3 million and conduct routine maintenance of the Eshowe-~Ulundi~ road, creating new opportunities for emerging contractors with contracts to the value of R1,5 million per annum.  To rehabilitate the road in 2005 will cost in excess of R30 million.  Will R30 million be available in the year 2005 or will the Eshowe-~Ulundi~ road, like many roads of similar status, revert to gravel in 2007?

Madam Chair, the situation is close to being desperate.  It has always been my belief that it is not the wealth of our nation that builds our roads, but rather our roads that built our nations wealth.  For this reason, we firmly believe that transport should, at least for the next five years, be among the priority portfolios along with Health, Education and Welfare which at present receive 85% of the total budget allocation of the Province.  Once the road infrastructure is there of course, the Department of Transport will rightly lose its priority status, just like in developed countries where everybody has got water supply.  The Ministry of Water Affairs is not very important.

In Indonesia, the World Bank recently stipulated that a condition for the granting of loans to that country was an appropriate percentage of their budget being spent on the maintenance of their road infrastructure.

The Province has an asset of R11 billion in the form of its provincial road infrastructure.  To allow it to deteriorate will be a catastrophic error for which we will pay for years to come.

Madam Chair, having passed through that, let me proceed with more exciting stuff.  It is the 19th today, therefore it is 1 469 days of delivery since 11 May 1994.


1 469 DAYS OF DELIVERY

The tragedy of the 1998/1999 budget will by no means undermine the achievements of my Department over the past four years.  Last year when I stood before you, I outlined ambitious programmes in the spheres of road access, road safety and public transport, pledging each and every Rand towards better transport services for all people in this Province.  Today we hold our heads high because we have kept our promises in all quarters.

ROAD SAFETY

The flagship of the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Transport is Asiphephe, Let us be Safe.  Just so that we will not have to khumbula them.  Where is Baba Ntombela?  [LAUGHTER]  Asiphephe is a research based, co-ordinated road safety strategy led by a fulltime road safety project management team and implemented by provincial traffic forces, local authority partners, and by road safety education and engineering.

Asiphephe is the new identity for road safety for KwaZulu-Natal and has been acknowledge throughout the country and even by President Nelson Mandela as the most advanced road safety strategy this country has seen.  The success of the programme so far has been the shared commitment and joint responsibility from all sectors of society.  We have seen the taxi industry, the hospitality industry, the business sector, educational institutions, Local Government, the media and a range of organisations coming out in support and rallying behind our road safety initiatives.

~SIYABAKHUMBULA~

This began with ~Siyabakhumbula~ month in August last year, and was specially supported by the people in the area of Vulindlela, and we salute them for that.  It was the biggest project my Department has undertaken so far and through the holding of mass services to remember those who died in road crashes, we evoked a mass movement against road carnage.

ARRIVE ALIVE

Two months after ~Siyabakhumbula~, the KwaZulu-Natal joined Gauteng and the Western Cape in implementing an intensive short term road safety programme, "Arrive Alive".  This four month campaign combined vigorous and tough enforcement with the a plethora of hard-hitting media images and messages targeting three main critical offences, drinking and driving, speeding and the failure to wear seatbelts.

From 1 October 1997 to 31 January 1998 about 230 000 motorists were caught for infringing traffic laws in a joint enforcement operation by the KwaZulu-Natal Road Traffic Inspectorate, the Durban City Police and all local authorities in the Province.

During the Arrive Alive, with the full support of the hospitality industry, we introduced a designated driver programme, which allows people to get home safely after a night on the town without causing a road crash, or getting caught in a roadblock.

ENFORCEMENT

The KwaZulu-Natal Road Traffic Inspectorate is undoubtedly the most conspicuous traffic authority and has excelled in most spheres of law enforcement.  In relation to overloading, 86% of all trucks travelling in South Africa are weighed in KwaZulu-Natal, in spite of our limited person power capacity.

Hon members, although the traffic enforcements statistics over the past seven months are impressive by anyone's standard, it is not a measure of success of our road safety strategy.  Nor can its effectiveness be fairly gauged by the variable reduction in road fatalities over the past festive and Easter seasons.  The real scale of its success is the public impact and response, as well as a steady change in driver behaviour.

I invite all members to join me in congratulating the KwaZulu-Natal Road Traffic Inspectorate which this year celebrates 60 years in existence and is the most effective Road Traffic Inspectorate in the country.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  

ASIPHEPHE

With the Arrive Alive experience fresh in our minds, KwaZulu-Natal launched Asiphephe, a sound, comprehensive strategy that involves effective sanctions.  Asiphephe was developed to tackle the culture of impunity that is so inbred in our society.  Our message to people who commit offences and try to get away with it was clear.  You can run, but you cannot hide.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  With the launch of the new credit card format licence system, and the imminent introduction of the points demerit system, scheduled to come into effect with the passing of the national legislation later in July, our ability to back up enforcement and education with speedy prosecution of offenders will be improved.  

But apart from the wielding of the big stick, Asiphephe systematically tackles the root causes of road crashes through education and advertisement.  One of the most successful campaigns undertaken as part of the Asiphephe project was the Taxi Rank Roadshow, which members will see this evening, which was staged throughout KwaZulu-Natal during the Easter period.  The roadshow took the message "Speed Kills/Ijubane Liyabulala", directly to the passengers and drivers of minibus taxis through industrial theatre performances.

Chair, Asiphephe is a powerful concept which transcends the boundaries of road safety to diffuse into all aspects of transport.  Asiphephe calls for collective involvement in creating a safe culture in transport and can extend to other spheres of life, especially in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal where we are desperately trying to shrug off the affliction of political violence.

PUBLIC TRANSPORT

Public transport is an important sector in this Province as millions of commuters rely on buses, taxis or trains to travel every day.  It is our belief that wherever possible, we need to provide our many commuters in KwaZulu-Natal with a choice between the various transport modes in the Province.  It is our mission to ensure that buses, taxis and trains operate professionally and efficiently so that commuters are able to travel safely between their homes and commercial hubs.

TAXIS

The KwaZulu-Natal Department of Transport has made a breakthrough in its effort to stabilise the taxi industry by engineering a process to abandon the hostile image of the industry and discourage a climate of lawlessness.  This is not to deny that there have been a number of incidents in the taxi industry that highlight in the public mind the magnitude of the task we still face.

We know that these elements have hidden their criminal activities behind the chaos of the taxi industry.  They are bent on using the taxi industry to destabilise our young democracy.  My colleague, the Minister of Safety and Security, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, and I have convened an emergency meeting to be attended by the police, the taxi task team and officials of the Department of Transport and Safety and Security.  This meeting will take place here in Maritzburg on Thursday, to address the violence that is again rearing its ugly head since our last sitting.

The Interim Minibus Taxi Bill, which will again come before this House next week, will seal our strategic plan to diminish violence and illegal operations in KwaZulu-Natal.

Once the Bill is passed, the industry can resume its focus on economic empowerment programmes and the operations of a cost-efficient, safe and legal public transport service.

TRAINING

Much of the credit for the new order in the taxi industry can be attributed to our emphasis on creating a brighter future for the industry through skills transfer, business development, and training, all of which is being co-ordinated by a committed team in the Department, together with the KwaZulu-Natal Taxi Task Team.

Last month, a comprehensive training programme was launched at 20 training centres around the Province.  Operators will be trained on business and administrative skills and the Department of Transport, through tender system, has identified a consortium to manage, co-ordinate and evaluate this training programme.  Minibus taxi drivers will receive advance driver training courses and 10 driving schools have been appointed to run the courses.

I firmly believe that with this carefully designed programme, we will have finally reached the threshold where we can transform the taxi industry into a professional and customer orientated industry.  

CO-OPERATIVES

In 1997/1998, the Department of Transport worked with the taxi industry to set up the taxi co-operatives which will lay the foundations for the development of the taxi cities and assist them in acquiring land, and in gaining funding to develop their business.  So far, four taxi co-operatives have been registered with the Registrar of Co-Operatives.

These are:  

-	The Ogwini Taxi Co-Operative in Port Shepstone
-	The Msunduzi Taxi Co-Operative in Pietermaritzburg
-	The Sonke Taxi Co-Operative in Esikhaweni
-	And the Thukela Transport Co-Operative in Ladysmith.

The Port Shepstone Co-Op represents over 15 taxi associations, with over 200 members.  The venture involves approximately R38 million and plans include a service centre, modern ranking facility and a retail centre.

After protracted negotiations at Local Government level, land has been bought for the co-op through KFC - Economic Affairs and has finalised its design of the taxi city.  We have received in principle funding support from the private sector and the early stages of the construction are underway.

The Sonke Co-op involves a venture where the Esikhaweni Taxi Association is contracted for the amount of R402 000 per annum for three years to transport employees from Richards Bay Minerals to and from work.

The Msunduzi Co-op here in Pietermaritzburg has entered into a joint venture for a Toyota dealership in Howick for its members.  The operation is worth R5 million with the co-operative owning 20% of that deal.  At the same time there is a design for a Taxi City in Pietermaritzburg worth approximately R40 million which is being finalised between the co-operative and an established company in Pietermaritzburg.

An exciting development for the taxi industry in KwaZulu-Natal has been the establishment of a Freight Task Team by the Department of Transport.  We are currently involved in a series of negotiations with various freight companies to facilitate the entry of taxi operators in the trucking industry.

The Department has also facilitated the formation of a consortium of stakeholders in the taxi industry to tender for bus routes in the Inanda areas, which were previously part of the Putco operation.  They are geared for success and will provide a model for a similar venture in Clermont.

Because of these opportunities I have outlined, we have decided to create a provincial vehicle which will drive the capitalisation of the taxi industry on a sustainable basis.  The KwaZulu-Natal Taxi Development Company, which registered last year, will be used to mobilise finances from the private sector, Government departments, and the taxi industry.  Given the mass character of the taxi industry, this Section 21 company has the potential to invest more than R1 billion into the economy of the Province.

BUSES

The Department of Transport has started to implement a new policy to reshape the bus industry in KwaZulu-Natal.  This new policy is based on the idea of tendered contracts which allow for small operators to position themselves and get a slice of bus operations.

The bus task team, with 12 representatives each from Government and the bus industry, is up and running.  This has really got to grips with the major problems facing the bus industry. 

In the last year, the Department has identified that the two biggest barriers has been the spiralling operational costs faced by bus companies and secondly, the unhealthy competition between bus and taxi operators.

I am please to report that the Department has developed a programme aimed at breaking down the barriers, and this has gathered strong support from the public transport industry.

In essence, this plan entails a new deal for the Interim Bus contracts.  These will be issued to support SMME development and to link bus and taxi operations through joint ownership and route sharing.

RAIL

The Department of Transport enjoys a healthy and compatible relationship with its partners in the rail industry.  This is through the commitment of organisations like Metrorail to the same ideals and overall vision to which we adhere.


TRAINING

Through its training programme for black train drivers, Metrorail has also sent a clear message to its employees that job reservation is indeed a thing of the past.  I am one of the few people who have ridden a train that is driven by a black person.  It makes you feel good.  They have opened a gateway and are actively encouraging people from previously disenfranchised communities to seek careers in rail transport.

STATION UPGRADE PROGRAMME

Metrorail in partnership with Intersite Properties has also launched an ambitious R78 million station upgrade programme involving 17 stations to kick-start a process to transform and revitalise the rail industry in KwaZulu-Natal.  The first four stations at KwaMashu, Thembalihle, Umlazi and KwaMnyandu have been completed and thousands of commuters have access to improved facilities and a safer, more pleasant environment.

RAIL SAFETY

Metrorail has also taken its cue from the Arrive Alive and Asiphephe campaigns and has introduced a campaign to promote rail safety and embraced our mission to create a culture of safety in transport.

With all sectors now fully behind us, the vision for a co-ordinated, integrated and efficient public transport system is fast crystallising and there is no turning back now.

ROADS FOR RURAL DEVELOPMENT

Madam Chair, I now come to the pride of the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Transport and the lifeblood of the development and growth in KwaZulu-Natal, the Roads for Rural Development programme.

Possibly the proudest achievement for the Department of Transport during 1997/1998 has been the construction of 650 kilometres of Community Access Roads we completed since we last met here.  650 kilometres stretches from Durban to Johannesburg and back to where? quite far.

AN HON MEMBER:  Heidelberg.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Heidelberg.  That is quite far in one year.  These projects created 600 000 days of labour employment, supporting 26 SMMEs, gave access to 225 000 people and linked 104 schools and 15 clinics to the road network.  These projects are listed in Annexure A of this report.  We have also built 55 small bridges in our Bridge Building Initiative aimed at decreasing the disruption to daily activities caused by swollen rivers.

Perhaps I will just alert members that the report here is in three parts.  It is the introduction, and then this 1469 days of delivery and then at the back we do have the annexures which will list the SMMEs that we have been using, and which will mention the roads that we have built.  They are not theoretical, we can actually go and see them.  The SMMEs also are not theoretical, you can actually go and hire them in other departments as well.

Other significant rural roads achievements in 1997 include:

-	Hosting a Rural Roads Report back Summit to update the Department of Transport's rural constituency on our progress.
-	Finalising all our outstanding Rural Road Transport Forums, and entrenching social analysis and community consultation in all roads related programming.

With the new financial year, Roads for Rural Development has a budget of much less than half of last year's R100 million.  Instead of building 650 kilometres of road and 55 bridges, we will be only able to complete 240 kilometres of road and 25 bridges.

I said earlier that the Department of Transport was not going to allow the severe economic climate to sway it from its goals.

The sine qua non of the rural roads programme, however, remains the diligence of the 30 Rural Road Transport Forums, a number of whom are represented in this gallery.  They serve as our permanent communication link with all rural communities, assist us in allocating funds within rural districts, and select priority roads for immediate attention.  The transport forums are unchallenged as the most representative rural structures in this country and they are the core agents of development in rural KwaZulu-Natal.


TRANSLATION:  We want to thank very much those of the Transport Forums, that they were able to hold discussions regarding the building of rural roads in a manner which showed wisdom and in a manner which did not cause friction.  They realised that the issue of development is not an issue which is departmental or governmental only, but it is a total community issue.  And these Transport Forums had strong committees which showed that we are now adopting democratic methods.  T/E

SMMEs AND EMERGING CONTRACTORS

Since 1994, the Department of Transport has dedicated maximum resources to wealth creation and job creation.  For this reason, we eagerly await the Job Summit announced by President Mandela at the opening of Parliament in February.  
Over the last three years all possible programmes undertaken by the Department have been adapted to accommodate SMMEs and labour intensive methods.  With 2 000 vacant posts, we have consciously reduced staffing levels in order to rather employ SMMEs.

In 1997, the Department of Transport registered over 500 emerging contractors through the SMME accreditation scheme of our rural roads programme.  With ongoing Tender Board consultation, we developed simplified contract documentation and newly streamlined tendering procedures to ease the way for the hire of emerging contractors.  Again I refer to Annexure A.

We are extremely proud that our Roads for Rural Development project, and emerging contractors programme in particular, has become an international model for rural development.

In March of this year, the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Transport hosted a delegation of development experts and senior Government officials from Ethiopia who travelled to KwaZulu-Natal to study the programme.

The Community Access Roads programme has already created 100 000 workdays in local employment opportunities.  It is for this reason that the budget cut has had such a devastating impact on the programme and tragically, hundreds of emerging contractors throughout this Province are left reeling from the immediate suspension of work on some contracts and complete cancellation of others.

ROAD MAINTENANCE

KwaZulu-Natal has a provincial road network of established tar, concrete and gravel roads with an asset value of over R11 billion.

Last year, we began a Maintenance Needs Study to find ways to preserve the asset value of our road network, given the consistent decline in funding to maintain our roads.  

Initially this financial year, the Department of Transport has a very limited budget for future maintenance programmes.  The reality is that potholes will increase on tar roads and the line markings will become faded.  However, with our road maintenance needs study we are searching for ways to halt the deterioration of important roads and to stop highly trafficked roads from becoming dangerous to drive on.

Depending on the findings of our maintenance needs study, we will in all likelihood be forced to rip up minimally trafficked and uneconomic sections of badly potholed blacktop roads, returning them to gravel.

I offer my word that any decision of this nature will take place after consultation with stakeholders and will be based on equitable cost benefit investigations.

LUBOMBO SPATIAL DEVELOPMENT INITIATIVE

Madam Chair, as we are all aware, the Lubombo SDI is a huge economic boom for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  The construction of Main Road 439 between Hluhluwe and Ponta do Ouro, which we launched in August last year, will open up access to the enormous economic potential of the area.  The road will provide the people of the region with better access to jobs and better prospects for the new local enterprises, services and facilities.

The anticipated cost of the road is approximately R200 million.  We have campaigned vigorously that the SMME sector be contracted in the construction of the MR439.  I am happy to say that it is now a condition of the contract that a minimum of 30%, approximately R60 million will be contracted to SMMEs.  Again, this SDI is proof that it is not the wealth that creates the roads, it is the roads that are going to create the wealth.  The opening up of that area, that part of our country, is going to create tourism, jobs, agriculture and what have you, and even [Jeqe, Father uMsholozi, Jeqe would not be able to recognise that area when we have finished these roads.  That which he saw at Thonga he would not see again now].

PROVINCIAL MOTOR TRANSPORT

I am now talking about the PMT, provincial motor transport.  The Department of Transport has made steady and substantial progress in the battle to control staff, fight vehicle abuse, and halt repair fraud in our embattled provincial motor transport.

We allocated R1 million for a new management structure for PMT.  This was used to set up an Interim Management Committee to evaluate the recommendations of Deloitte and Touche Assessment of PMT that I spoke about a year ago.  

Already this has proved to be an excellent investment.  Under the IMC, PMT monthly cost have reduced from R13 million per month to R6,5 million per month - per unit vehicle, we have gone from being the most expensive in the country to being the third cheapest.

Twenty seven officials have been charged with misconduct where irregularities were identified.  Of these, 14 employees have been suspended pending the outcome of their hearings.  Two employees have since had their services terminated after they absconded.  The IMC also instituted several investigations into merchant fraud.  Fourteen merchants were suspended by First Auto in November 1997 based on the outcome of their investigations.

Early this year, meetings were held with the Heath Commission, and a unit was appointed to assist PMT in identifying and combating merchant fraud.  Court orders were served on 32 merchants in February 1998 ordering the release of 325 Government owned vehicles being held on the merchants' premises, and to date we have got no vehicles that are unaccounted for.

While we know that the last of our problems with PMT are by no means over, we believe that the work we have done has started the process of building PMT into a clean and viable structure.  We are also closely following the national pilot project on the privatisation of vehicle fleets which will gauge the feasibility of this process.  
MOTOR LICENSING (MLB)

Since 1994 our motor licensing section has moved away from the over-governed and over-regulated bureaucracy associated with ~Apartheid~ South Africa.

Motor licensing is the greatest provincial revenue earner, is leading in public service delivery programmes, and has displayed a flair for market-edge creativity through its personalised number plate programme.

Last year, Motor Licensing generated one-third of the entire revenue earned in KwaZulu-Natal, earning approximately R230 million for our provincial coffers.  Of this, R45 million from the licence fee increases and R2,9 million from personalised number plates, went directly towards community access roads and road safety.  Of course a number of members here contributed through traffic fines.  [LAUGHTER]  But others contributed much more responsibly through buying personalised number plates, like Tstotsi, like Raj 1 and we want to thank those members very, very much.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of correction.  There is also a Raj 2.  [LAUGHTER]

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Raj 1 and Raj 2, yes.  We thank them very much, because that money goes directly to rural roads construction.

PROVCOM

In June last year, I together with my colleague, the Minister of Local Government Mr Peter Miller, and all the Mayors of KwaZulu-Natal launched the Provincial Committee for Transport, PROVCOM.  This structure of co-operative governance between Provincial and Local Government has served as a crucial consultative link in much the same way as MINCOM and inter-governmental forums.  

UNFINISHED BUSINESS

Madam Chair, I now want to proceed and speak about unfinished business.  I am extremely proud that across the Department of Transport, in every sector we are responsible for, we have moved from the realm of promises into the realm of hard delivery.  My team of promise-keepers have taken the broad vision of delivery and translated it into tangible results.

We are about to enter the final stage in the cycle and we are more prepared than ever to complete unfinished business and to do it well.

ROAD SAFETY

Management

Previous road safety campaigns, because of the spasmodic nature around holiday seasons, have limited life spans.  Asiphephe is here to stay.  Over the next weeks, I will be appointing the Road Safety Board to oversee the development and delivery of road safety strategies, policies and programmes.

The Board will report regularly to me on the quality, effectiveness and performance of road safety programmes against annual and overall targets.  I am also proud to announce today that road safety in KwaZulu-Natal has a new face.  We have recently appointed Mr Musa Zulu as the new Road Safety Project Director, and he will be responsible for managing the research, implementation and evaluation of Asiphephe.

The Project Director will also facilitate the establishment of Road Safety Councils.  These Councils will be modelled on the Rural Road Transport Forums and their role will be to evaluate and advise the Department on the road safety needs of their respective areas, and also act as implementing agencies.

The criticism of the Victoria Project, which we adapted and launched as Asiphephe, was that it was designed in a first world and was not suited to South African conditions.  While these concerns are unfounded as two years of research and preparatory work went into Project Victoria to adapt it to KwaZulu-Natal conditions, we are fully committed to make Asiphephe our very own road safety strategy.

Mass Awareness

~Siyabakhumbula~ Month set a national precedent regarding how safety initiatives can promote regeneration of civil society and return to the rule of law.  In addition, it nurtured a community spirit and generated the type of goodwill that does not often emerge in a province such as ours.  I believe that it is the responsibility of the Department of Transport and the Provincial Government as a whole to sustain this culture for road safety, and allow it to transcend into other spheres of life.  

The mission to reduce road trauma in KwaZulu-Natal is a long and arduous process.  Results are not instant and unfortunately our road safety programme did not escape unscathed by the budget cut.  However, the costs of slowing down the campaign are severe and the disaster at Madadeni, which left 32 people, including 28 school children dead, is a case in point.  I am not prepared to ease off on the campaign while hundreds of buses carrying school children are travelling on our roads.  The risk is too devastating to contemplate.

Upcoming Developments

This Province remains in the forefront of national road safety initiatives.  But it will serve no purpose for KwaZulu-Natal to have safe roads if the rest of South Africa still lags behind.  Because of this, I have agreed that the Deputy Director-General of the Department of Transport, Ms Jenny Gray, be seconded to the National Department of Transport on a part time basis to head up a national plan for road traffic management.  This plan looks at optimising all elements of road traffic management, enforcement, vehicle registration and licensing, driver testing and licensing, accident investigations, the administration of fines and education.  We congratulate her on the secondment.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  We are eagerly awaiting adoption of the Administrative Adjudication for Traffic Offences Bill, which will be tabled in the National Legislature during the July parliamentary session.  This Bill allows for the decriminalisation of traffic offences, the driver licence point demerit system, standard fines and linking fines to the renewal of vehicle registration.  We want members not to see themselves above the law that if you give the wrong address and you get a fine, we can assure you that after 13 months we will catch you, because you will come to renew your vehicle licence, and we will say you owe 1, 2, 3.

PUBLIC TRANSPORT

Taxi to Success

Our public transport initiatives have stood up to scrutiny and are acknowledged countrywide for the steady and discernible progress in all sectors.  Our economic empowerment programmes for the taxi industry will culminate over the next few months, and for the first time in its history, the taxi industry will be able to stand proud among the business giants of KwaZulu-Natal.  It is a proud achievement for an industry that has been the subject of public prejudice and that has been wracked by disorder and strife.  By the end of this year, we will witness the emergence of taxi cities, the booming of joint venture companies and the expansion of taxi co-operatives.

It will be possible now to inform a visitor from overseas, who will ask here in the City of Pietermaritzburg, what is owned by black people, we have only been able to point to a hair salon.  We will now be able to point to a R40 million complex in this city and say that is what the black people own.  We will be able to do that in Ladysmith, in Port Shepstone and in Durban, and everywhere else.  Proud indeed.

Insuring the Future

At present, taxi owners pay insurance premium rates ranging between 21% to 25%, as opposed to the normal rate of between 14% to 17%.  This is due to the higher risk associated with the taxi industry and this equates to increased monthly vehicle repayments and overall costs.  Because of the high insurance premiums, the tendency exists for taxi owners to discontinue paying insurance once they complete vehicle repayments.

We have now developed a scheme which will give direct benefits to the taxi industry by reducing insurance premiums to the normal rate and possibly even lower.  The scheme involves insurance companies coming into partnership with the taxi industry to create joint control and a reduction in false claims.

For this scheme to work, 25% of minibus taxis in the Province will have to participate.  We believe that this will be easily achieved because the foundations are firmly in place and the industry is brimming with enthusiasm.  The scheme is operational on condition that the Interim Minibus Taxi Bill succeeds in its mission to root out illegal operations and that the structures in the industry are involved in processing claims.  

Kwazulu-Natal Land Transport Bill

We have completed the drafting of the KwaZulu-Natal Land Transport Bill and once the National Bill has been passed, the Provincial Bill will be tabled.  This Bill will address institutional public transport issues, and entrench national and provincial and local authority powers.  The Bill will also set in place funding mechanisms for public transport, for example, the setting up of a provincial land transport fund.  It will also encompass the provision in the Interim Minibus Taxi Bill, and address the questions of permits for both buses and taxis.

Rail Concessioning

Madam Chair, the public transport sector in KwaZulu-Natal is poised for a major shake up which will launch this Province into the 21st Century transport technology.  A national process is underway to concession rail services in South Africa.  The plan involved concessioning specific lines or corridors in different provinces to international companies.

We are now working on a proposal for the entire Durban Metrorail operation to be used as a Demonstration Project for South Africa.  This will bring in billions of Rands in international investment into KwaZulu-Natal, upgrade rail service to international standards and spark off the development of a whole new intermodal transport model.

The tourist and industrial potential for KwaZulu-Natal would be unlocked by an efficient rail network and the contract will unleash employment and empowerment opportunities for local communities.

The fundamental goal is the provision of a fully integrated, multi-modal transport system in the Metropolitan area.  Interested international companies are already lining up to bid for the deal and we are working closely with all stakeholders to win this project.  We will come up against fierce opposition from two other provinces who will also be bidding for demonstration projects, but I believe that with the support of the entire Provincial Government, this deal will be ours, particularly because kunamasoka lapha kwi-Department of Transport.  [there are casanovas there in the Department of Transport].

The New International Airport

With the appointment of the new strategic partner from Italy, the decision for the relocation of Durban International Airport to La Mercy should be finalised soon.  We are now to hold a meeting with the Premier Dr Ngubane, Minister of Finance Mr Miller, Minister of Economic Affairs Mr Zuma, and myself, together with the National Minister of Transport to take the matter forward.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION AND LAUGHTER

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  

BUILDING KWAZULU-NATAL

The Road to Wealth and Job Creation

South Africa's unemployment problem is no secret.  It is associated with a range of negative social indicators, including poverty, crime and social anomie.  We all acknowledge that we have a responsibility to create jobs and opportunities for SMME development on a massive scale.

The KwaZulu-Natal Department of Transport has developed a proposal to create 20 million work days and 2 000 emerging contractor opportunities in the Province over five years.  This proposal dubbed, "The Road to Wealth and Job Creation", is modelled on Roosevelt's "New Deal" in the United States during the Depression between 1933 and 1940.  During this period, unemployment was reduced from 17 million to 8 million in the US and more than 1,4 million kilometres of roads and 75 000 bridges were constructed.

Although the proposal has developed out of the KwaZulu-Natal experience, it is written to allow for easy adoption by other provinces to meet their specific needs.  The proposal is in line with the Public Works' Green Paper and the adoption of this programme will create massive opportunities and hope for rural populations.

We are holding a series of consultative meetings with the Departments of Trade and Industry, Transport and Public Works on how we can use "The Road to Job Creation and Wealth" as a blueprint for job creation, the promotion of SMMEs and rural development.  I endeavour to keep the Transport Portfolio Committee and this hon House informed about development in this regard.

River Crossing Upgrade Programme

Earlier this year, we were all struck by tragedy when nine children drowned while attempting to cross the Black Mfolozi River.  They were on their way to school, and because the nearest bridge was more than 10 kilometres away, they negotiated the river together on a daily basis.  On that fateful day in March, they were swept away by flood waters.

Tragedies such as these are not unusual for rural communities.  Then there is the classic tale of the headmaster at Ndwedwe who crossed a river carrying matric exam papers on his head last December.

The absence of bridges and causeways along routes used frequently to access schools, clinics and other amenities such as shops, post offices and pension pay out points need to be addressed as a matter of urgency.  Last year KwaZulu-Natal Department of Transport launched the Bridge Building Initiative, the BBI, to fast track the construction of desperately needed bridges and causeways.

We have now developed a Business Plan to solicit donor funds from organisations who are prepared to partner my Department in fulfilling its vision to end the physical, social and economic isolation of rural communities through the provision of roads and river crossing infrastructure.

Last week my officials led by Mr Brian Mbanjwa, met the Insediamenti umani e territorio (ITER), an Italian Human settlement and environment NGO and we are optimistic that a partnership is in the offing.  We are hoping to foster other international partnerships to set this programme in full flight.

CONCLUSION

In conclusion, Madam Chair, I will deal later, perhaps in another forum, with the new development on the N3, R1,3 billion investment from Heidelberg to Cedara.  That is the new N3 that is going to cost R1,3 billion.  I will deal with that perhaps later.

Madam Chair, it has been quite a year in transport.  In fact, serving as Minister of Transport over the past four years has personally been an extremely enriching experience.

I would like to extend my appreciation to the Cabinet and this Legislature for the support my Department has enjoyed.  I would also like to thank the Transport Portfolio Committee and its Chairman, Mr Motala for their support and encouragement throughout all our initiatives.

I would also like to thank the KwaZulu-Natal Taxi Task Team for their dedication and commitment to our vision for the taxi industry and for going the extra mile to make it happen.  I salute the members of the 30 Rural Road Transport Forums for their excellent work and for providing a crucial link between rural communities and the Department in order for us to make rural development a qualified reality.

My sincere appreciation goes to the Australian team, led by Rob Reid Smith, who worked tirelessly to help us shape a road safety programme to be proud of.  I would like also to pay tribute to all the traffic officers in this Province who are the real heros of our road safety programme.

Finally, my team of Promise-Keepers, led by the Deputy Director-General, Ms Jenny Gray, Chief Director Hermann Klem, the Chief Director Thami Manyathi.  I thank them for their individual commitment and collective contribution in meeting the transport needs of the people of KwaZulu-Natal.

Madam Chair, I present to this hon House the 1998/1999 Transport budget vote.  I thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Can I please remind the hon members, even that if they are in a great hurry when they come to the House, they must park their cars properly.  We cannot disturb the process of the House.  There is a maroon kombi, ND 203603, that is obstructing another car.  Make sure that you park properly, gentlemen and ladies.

We call upon the hon member Mr M S C M Motala, who is the Chair of this Portfolio Committee.  You have got 10 minutes, sir.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Madam Chair, I would like to start on a slightly different note.  At first I was a bit concerned.  It appears to me as if the Minister of Transport has got cold feet before the 1999 elections, because in his opening remarks he said possibly there may not be another budget sitting.  If I try to read between the lines, and I hope he is not serious when he says that there may not be a budget sitting next year.

Having said that, Madam Chair, as Chairperson of the Transport Portfolio Committee, I would like to express the Committee's appreciation for the endeavours of the Minister of Transport, the Secretary, Ms Gray and their Department in working against all odds to provide effective and competent delivery within the Province

A total number of 11 committee meetings were held during the period February 1997 to date.  The meetings were well attended by the Minister of Transport, the departmental officials, members and parliamentary support staff.  On this note, I would like to thank the Secretary of the Committee, Ms P Gounden and the Committee's Legal Advisor, Ms Nashira Naidoo for their untiring efforts in providing assistance to the Committee.

On the issue of the budget, Madam Chair, it is common cause that the Department is faced with a stringent and limited budget.  The Transport Department was provided with a budget of R700 million for the year 1997/1998 budget year.  The voted budget for the year 1998/1999 is R444 million.  This is a reduction of approximately 40%.  The Department has informed the Committee that the consequence of the decrease in the budget is inevitably a decrease in the level of service delivery.  However, the Department has assured the Transport Portfolio Committee that they are going to make a very unsavoury situation workable.

The Department has shown an ability to be innovative and have indicated that their strategy will be to dedicate funds to those areas that need it most.  The Department has shown the Committee that they are taking the initiative in reducing costs and remaining functional within a budget that is not conducive to excellent performance.  In effect they are working within a dysfunctional system.

The positive step that the Department has adopted and which I would suggest should be a trend adopted by other departments is the employment of a Financial Manager who can only add value to the Department, because of the expertise that he will transmit.  His status is that of a via media between a public servant and a consultant, employed on a one year contract to impart skills to responsibility manager who will be advised on methods pertaining to budget restraints.  The responsibility managers will have to account for all expenses in their line function and justify same.  The Secretary of the Department has advised that the money that the Financial Manager has saved them to date is already in excess of his salary.

A second positive step taken by the Department is the supplementing of funds with licence fees.  The Portfolio Committee recognises that the maximum cuts in the Department of Transport will take place in Administration where an anticipated reduction on subsistence and travel will occur.  The costs of equipment will be reduced by ensuring non-replacement of equipment as the Department's maintenance budget is cut by 33%.  The Committee has been informed that the Department is scaling down on the operation of the government garages by placing a moratorium on purchasing pool vehicles.  This step must be applauded.

The Committee has also been advised that the Department is faced with the "forbidden option" of spending less money on rehabilitation of roads.  The problem with this is that the roads will then deteriorate to such an extent that it will cost a fortune to re-build.  This option will result in the possible closure of certain roads and an inevitable increase in maintenance costs in the future.  This will also have an impact on vehicle operating costs.

Because of the financial crisis the Province is faced with, we must recognise, as the Department does, that they are forced to take temporary measures to work within a budget, the consequence of which will be detrimental to the future of this Province.  The Department is aware of the seriousness of exercising this option.  In fact, they have emphasised the negative repercussions of exercising such an option, but I would urge the Department to tread with caution in their decision-making.  I would suggest that they anticipate the problems that they may face and take pro-active decisions as opposed to reactionary decisions.

The Department is forced to reduce the delivery of roads from 650 kilometres in 1997/1998, to 240 kilometres in 1998/1999, which the Minister has just quoted. The implications of this would be a reduction in the number of people who will be provided with access roads from 279 000 people in 1997/1998 to 103 000 in 1998/1999 year.  There will be no rehabilitation of roads which have been taken over from the Department of Agriculture for provision of access to farms.  The implication of this would be inaccessibility to farms which would invariably result in a loss to the economy.  This measure will also result in communities being inconvenienced as allweather access to schools, clinics and pension point pay outs will be limited.

The Department anticipates seeking additional funds to bridge them during the period when they are in a financial straitjacket.  They also plan on constructing lower standard roads, but they recognise that this will only result in greater long term maintenance costs.  The Department is faced with a catch-22 situation.  They have to work on a minimal budget and render temporary effective programmes which will have enormous repercussions in the long term.  Examples, the repercussions will be a deterioration in the condition of the roads, possible closure or ripping of roads, and road safety risk and possibly more accidents.

The Department is also considering supplying basic materials and advice to assist communities maintaining roads themselves.  Any additional funding will be utilised by the Department to increase community access road programmes to levels expected by the communities.

The Department has conceded that in respect of the motor licensing bureau, that delivery cannot be curtailed as the motor licensing bureau generates 33% of public revenue.  It therefore has to be properly administered and funded.  A member of the Transport Portfolio Committee suggested that licence fees be increased to supplement the income of the Transport Department.  Although this was recognised as a sensible suggestion, the Secretary of Transport advised that these fees cannot be too far removed from that charged by other provinces as the vehicle owners in KwaZulu-Natal would then try to defeat the system by registering their vehicles in other provinces and this would then have the effect of robbing the Province of the income it receives.

Here, Madam Chair, I must thank the Secretary of Transport for her foresight and effective and responsible management of the Department in not finding a "quick fix" solution that will result in the Department being "fixed".

The Committee has also been informed that the Department is, for the first time, restrained by a monthly budget and they have adopted the following key interventions:

1.	The appointment of a finance manager.
2.	The appointment of responsibility managers who have been requested to document exactly what they require the money for.  This request will be analysed by the finance manager to assess the output and the link to the input.  This is a key initiative that needs to be emulated by other departments.
3.	A review of other financial systems that are more conducive to our working environment.
4.	The cracking down on fraud and corruption.  The Department appears to be going that extra mile in ensuring that losses arising from fraud and corruption are recovered.
5.	Obtaining Treasury approval to have a facility to identify cheque fraud.
6.	A comparison of the road directorate to the private sector, and looking at the Department as a business with linked performance and profits.
7.	Monitoring of cash flow on a weekly basis and identifying responsibility managers to oversee this aspect, whilst providing responsibility managers with the necessary tools, such as training to hold them accountable for their actions.
8.	Monitoring levels of productivity, of personnel expenditure, non-personnel expenditure and value received.
9.	Considering privatisation, disposal of assets and re-financing of assets, seeking funding through private/public sector partnerships.
10.	Continuous auditing to evaluate cost efficiency of operations and quality of operations, as well as assessment of levels of service delivery.
11.	The introduction of internal audits focusing on high risk areas.

In essence, the present budget has and will have adverse effects on road construction, community access roads, maintenance of roads, public transport, road safety education and on the road traffic inspectorate.

Mr Chairman, the budget cuts are tangible.  The Department will have to sever construction contracts etcetera.  The effect will be felt by both motorists and emerging contractors who have outlaid enormous expenses to secure Government contracts when the Government was talking about job creation, and giving hope to new black empowerment businesses.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one more minute. 

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Thank you.  The firms that will be affected are civil engineers, grass cutting firms and people involved in pothole patching.  The small, micro and medium enterprises that rely on Government work are going to feel the crunch.

The Secretary and her officials are adding value and have shown themselves to be risk takers rather than undertakers, (that is people who take under suggestions and create more problems rather than finding solutions).  The Department does not provide excuses in the face of challenges, they embrace the challenges.  However, they need our assistance, and the only assistance that we can give is to make an appeal to the Finance Portfolio Committee to request Treasury to boost their cash flow in the first month of the year, and also appeal to Cabinet to find savings to possibly give them funds for the access roads.  It is impossible to perform major construction work in the last months.  They will have to work within a decreased budget, and this is unavoidable, but they can only perform effectively if they are given the assistance.

Mr Chairman, in conclusion, I just want the Minister to listen to what I have to say. 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member's time is up.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  I just want to quote, Mr Chairman, the last thing:

		That my child broke his leg and had to go to hospital.  I sold my three cows to pay for transport and treatment.  Now I have nothing.

So I hope the Minister and everybody realises how important it is to keep our roads going.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now have pleasure to call upon the hon Mr Ainslie who has 16 minutes.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for the chance to speak in this debate.  I would like to start off by complimenting the Minister on his presentation, and especially the packages that we received today.  There is always something new from the Minister of Transport.  I expected something, but not something this big.  The Minister reminds me of what they call in America spin doctors.  Spin doctors I think is the correct phrase.  People who show excellence in the public relations field.  I compliment the Minister, Mr Chairperson.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A R AINSLIE:  Mr Chairperson, last week when the Chief Whip of my party, the hon Mrs Cronje, spoke in the debate, she compared the budget debate to stocktaking.  I think this is a very appropriate way of describing what we are doing today, and what we will be doing in the next few days, looking at the various departments' budgets.  It is a time to consider what the Transport Department has actually delivered against what it promised to deliver and of course, because it is a budget session, what all of this has cost.

When he spoke last week, the hon Minister of Finance said that he was not too sure of what was meant by transformation.  Mr Chairperson, you will recall that in the discussions last week several members dealt with this concept of transformation, and the Minister of Finance seemed to have some difficulty in understanding what it meant.  He even had recourse to a dictionary and gave us a dictionary definition of transformation.  But, giving a dictionary definition of transformation will not help us.  Language is a living thing.  Meanings change all the time.

Over the next weeks transformation will continue to be a key element in our debates.  What is going to emerge, I am sure, is a far clearer idea of what we on this side of the House, all of us here, and what some members on that side of the House mean by transformation.  Perhaps the place to start in defining this concept of transformation is with a living model of transformation.  I want to suggest that the Department of Transport under its current management, and under the Minister, is such a model of transformation.

If we examine this report and we examine previous reports tabled by this Department, we will see that in fact in the Department of Transport there has been rapid and fundamental transformation on at least three important levels.  I would like to go through some of these.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 
TRANSLATION:  Chair, there is something I want to put right, that I think that the Chair will put right.  As the hon Minister Ndebele has been presenting his budget, I want to ask why the ANC does not support the Minister.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Mr Ntombela, is that a point of order, or is it a question]?  Order please!  Will you please continue, hon Mr Ainslie.  Order please!  Give him a hearing.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip):.  [It is a question, sir].

THE CHAIRPERSON: [No, a question can only be put to the person that is speaking, sir].

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip):.  [I am asking].

HON MEMBER: [What are you asking]?

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): [Because the House on this side is full.  On the other side there is nobody].

AN HON MEMBER: Sit down].

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Will you please continue the hon Mr Ainslie.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  The hon member should learn to distinguish between heckling and a point of order.  I was discussing, Mr Chairperson, the fundamental transformation that has taken place on various levels in the Department of Transport.

Firstly, with the staff establishment.  Staff establishment, especially at senior management level is no longer one race, one gender, one age group as it was in the days of the hon Mr Volker.  Staff now reflect the demographics of the new South Africa in terms of race, gender, and age distribution.  This has happened in four short years in this Department.  With the employment of new staff has come new and creative blood.  This has come just in time to an organisation that had in fact begun to stultify.  In the process of this transformation of staff, standards have not dropped.  In fact, standards on all levels, and one can look at these reports, standards at all levels have in fact increased.

The second area of transformation that has taken place in the Department of Transport is the modus operandi, the way the Department operates.  The way the Department operates is perhaps characterised by these four or five elements.

1.	A hands-on approach by the Minister.
2.	Very close and very constant liaison with the Portfolio Committee.
3.	Transparency.  The Department is open about both its successes and its failures.  The Department will tell you what is going on, warts and all, even if it does not always suit them.
4.	Participation.  Members of the public are continually being invited to workshops and conferences to discuss transport issues.  In fact, Mr Chairperson, as you know, there will be such a meeting after we conclude the debate here today.  Fora, as the Minister has explained, has been established to implement the community access roads project in the various rural areas.
5.	Effective communication.  Through a vigorous and creative public relations component of the Department, transport issues are constantly kept in the public mind, and these issues are discussed and debated publicly.  So when one goes to the public and says let us have an increase in licence fees, there is ground swell support for that.  Because the public all along have been taken into the Department's confidence as to why these things are needed.  One must compliment this public relations component that the Minister has established in his Department.

Thirdly, Mr Chairperson, there has been rapid transformation in the area of operational objectives.  The Department, as it was during Mr Volker's time, no longer sees its role as mainly building roads from one privileged area to another privileged area and having no further responsibility to wider socio-economic issues.

The priorities and objectives of this Department have been transformed so as to be consistent with the principles of reconstruction and development.  To be consistent with the policy of National Government.  Let us remind ourselves what these basic principles of reconstruction and development are, and what the Department of Transport has done to develop and promote them.

1.	Meeting basic needs, and we have learnt at length from the Minister today what is being done to meet the basic needs of people in the rural areas in terms of a road network.
2.	Growing the economy.  Here again, the report deals at length with the SDI that is being developed in the Maputoland region.  The Lubombo SDI represents an enormous economic opportunity for the Province, but in particular, what it represents for the poorest of the poor in areas such as Maputoland and Ingwavuma, may be a way out of their poverty, because the SDI plans to bring economic development to the areas neighbouring the project.

It has become a feature of projects under the Department, that emerging contractors be given a stake in the construction of roads.  We have heard from the Minister today that in this project a minimum of 30% of the contract will be performed by SMMEs.

Mr Chairperson, these are the transformations that are taking place in the Department of Transport.  I want to suggest that other departments, where there has been little or no transformation, so that they still resemble old ~Apartheid~ structures would do well to follow the example that has been set by the Department of Transport.

I would like to move on now to discuss other issues which perhaps more closely relate to the budget itself.  Despite the shortage of funds, the Department has notched up several successes.  These have been referred to by the Minister in his speech and in the documentation before us.  Maybe three projects deserve special mention.

Firstly, Community Access Roads.  An effective transportation network in our rural areas is key to the socio-economic upliftment of the poorest of the poor in our Province.  It is therefore with a great deal of satisfaction that the Minister reports that 650 kilometres of community access roads were completed last year.  This despite very difficult budgetary constraints.

The second area of activity in the Department I would like to refer to, very briefly, is the Road Safety Campaign, with its themes of Asiphephe, Let us be Safe, ~Siyabakhumbula~, We Remember them, and Arrive Alive.

These highly visible campaigns are having a real and positive impact on the public, and it is via such campaigns that in time, driver behaviour will be changed, patterns of driving altered and the carnage on our roads stopped.

The third reference I would make to projects engaged in by the Department concerns the Minibus Taxi Industry.  The House must compliment the Department on the efforts made over the past year to normalise the minibus taxi industry.  Despite continuing violence, efforts are well advanced to empower the industry through training, to empower the industry through programmes and establishing co-operatives.

A major setback with regard to the taxi industry was the failure of this House to pass and implement the Interim Minibus Taxi Bill.  But a second chance is being given us, Mr Chairperson, and I believe that once again this Bill will be before us, next week some time, or early thereafter.  

But there must be no doubt that the drastic cuts to the current budget, amounting to something in the region of 30% will drastically affect the ability of the Department to deliver on its promises.

The Department, with the support of the Portfolio Committee, is continuously looking at proposals to augment funding, to get additional funding.  One of the proposals has been provincial toll roads.  I believe that no decisions have been taken in regard to this matter, but there is support from several quarters for the use of provincial toll roads to offset the costs of construction and maintaining roads in certain areas.  Various studies have been done examining the effectiveness of toll roads, especially those run by Provincial Governments.  These studies have indicated several positive reasons why perhaps this is in fact the road to follow when one is looking for additional funding.  Some of the reports mention facts such as that the user-pays principle is applied when one establishes provincial toll roads.  So those people using the roads actually pay to maintain those roads, they pay to build new roads.

Another positive aspect of provincial toll roads is that the road user benefits by way of safer roads.  The road user benefits by way of reduction in vehicle maintenance costs.  The road user benefits by having easier route access, and also benefits by decreased petrol costs.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member has two minutes left.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.  Should the Department decide to embark on such a project, I am sure there is going to be wide ranging prior consultation with motorists, the business community and other stakeholders.

Another funding idea which has widespread support; multi-party support.  Is that relating to a dedicated fuel levy.  Maybe it is time that the Department gave this very serious consideration indeed.  Funds generated from such a dedicated fuel levy would be used specifically for road construction and maintenance.

Mr Chairperson, these are some of the efforts that are being made by the Portfolio Committee and by the Department to in fact seek additional funding.  I want to concur with the comments made by the hon Chairperson of the Transport Committee, that this budget is a very bitter pill to swallow.  Maybe what we ought to be doing is supporting the Chairperson in asking Treasury for a little extra to sweeten the pill.

With those few words, Mr Chairperson, I would like to say that we on this side of the House support this Bill.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  We shall now call upon the hon Mrs Millin, who has five minutes.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  First, may I thank the hon Minister for the lucky packet, full of goodies.  Did the cost of your presentation come out of your Transport budget, or did the hon Minister perhaps acquire a generous sponsor?  If so, perhaps that same sponsor would sponsor filling some of the burgeoning potholes in our fast deteriorating roads!  [LAUGHTER]

I would also like to congratulate the Minister on his excellent PR team, who appear to have done a pretty good job of lulling the general public into a false sense of complacency.  Heaven knows, even a 'card carrying dyed in the wool cynic', like me, was almost persuaded that your Department was running like a smooth, well-oiled machine...in spite of potholes, mini dongas and rippling caused by heavy traffic, I might add!  A respected businessman corroborated recently by another independent source, related to me his hair-raising experiences in attempting to obtain the new ID card driver's licence, at ~Mkondeni~ traffic station, here in Pietermaritzburg.

Frequent ads in the press in March invited people born in June to apply.  After repeated visits to the licensing offices, in the case of the businessman, whose time is worth hundreds of Rands an hour, on one occasion the applicant was told, during office hours, that not one licence official was on duty, as all had been called for a meeting at head office!  On another occasion, not one official on hand to process applications during business hours, as everyone had gone to a party!  [LAUGHTER]

I have a full detailed account of these experiences, hon Minister, and I would be very happy to supply these to you afterwards.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MRS T E MILLIN:  No, no, not newspaper, personal accounts given to me.  My businessman, who happens to be an advanced mathematician of note, after his ongoing experience at the hands of the licensing department ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!

MRS T E MILLIN:  .....at ~Mkondeni~, he has calculated that, at the present rate of processing one licence, ~Mkondeni~, presumably the second largest in KwaZulu-Natal, would be hard put to process 30 a day!

He also was informed that the new cards would expire after five years, having initially cost R75 plus ID photos.  However, at this rate, the entire system will have imploded long before this, I am afraid.  I therefore put it to the Minister that it would be better to scrap this hair-brained scheme, presumably, that has been brought in to increase revenue, before the administrative nightmare that is looming, due to universal staff cuts, and budgetary restraints, devour your already reduced budget.

The hon Minister talks of road safety, and yet we are confronted with recent fatal shootings at Mariannhill toll road.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is Safety and Security.

MRS T E MILLIN:  It is not, because these are motorists that are on the road.  The Mercury headline yesterday:  "Robbers fire on N2 motorists at Mtunzini toll road".

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!

MRS T E MILLIN:  Mr Chairman, may I have your protection...not to mention rocks and stones thrown at motorists, again with fatal consequences.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE CHAIRPERSON:  A yellow card is on the way for some people.  Order please! 
MRS T E MILLIN:  Particularly on the North Coast and South Coast, also toll roads, where clearly something must be done urgently to fence off bridge approaches, and overhead crossings, at least in the known danger areas, to begin with.

Madam Chair, I now come to the extremely vexatious issue of toll roads.  In the old South Africa the so-called undemocratic illegitimate ~Apartheid~ regime...

AN HON MEMBER:  Point of order please.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Point of order.  Let us hear your point of order.

AN HON MEMBER:  Sit down, Mrs Millin.

AN HON MEMBER:  As it stands we have a Mr Chairperson, not Madam Chair.  

MRS T E MILLIN:  I am sorry, Mr Chair, I will not take any questions now.

AN HON MEMBER:  She called you Madam Chair.

MRS T E MILLIN:  I have got very limited time.  May I carry on please, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please carry on regardless.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Right.  In the old South Africa under the so-called undemocratic illegitimate ~Apartheid~ regime, they introduced this method of taxes and tolls in order to finance the growth and upkeep of highways, both quick and easy to use, at a price.

However, that nasty NAT Government at least allowed the motorists a choice, namely the use of toll roads, at a price, or the longer way round via an alternative route, at no cost.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Give her a hearing please.  She is left with only 30 seconds.

MRS T E MILLIN:  May I remind this hon House that we in the IFP have a slogan, "Democracy is the freedom to choose".

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MRS T E MILLIN:  Now, however, our hon Minister, a very charming young man, I must admit, with very boyish looks very similar to Marthinus of the National Party - he seems to be cursed with youth!  [LAUGHTER].  We already have highway robbery, but now we are about to have byway robbery as well!  I am sure most hon members present are amazed that our hon Transport Minister, who comes from a party that professes ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your time is up, hon member.  The entertainment is over.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS T E MILLIN:  I just want to say, Minister - please...STOP! STOP!  [LAUGHTER]

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Thank you.  May I point out something to the House.  I have been requested by the Chief Whip in consultation with the other Whips, that there have been some slight changes.  The hon Mkhwanazi is swapping with the hon Mr Nel.  If you could change that on your lists please.  I shall now call upon the hon Mr Waugh.  You have 10 minutes.

MR J N C WAUGH:  Chairperson, if one looks at the report from the Finance Committee, no reference has been made to the Department of Transport.  The reason for that I do not know.  I would like to believe that it is as a result of the good assistance the Portfolio Committee gives to this Department, but it might be an oversight from the Committee, or it could also have been deliberate.

The information I have from my colleagues on the Committee is that the Department has overspent its budget with plus/minus R50 million.  I now ask myself why has no mention been made of this Department in that report.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  Give him a hearing, will you.

MR J N C WAUGH:  If no problems have been identified by the Finance Committee, they should have mentioned that.  If credit is due, credit should be given, but no mention was made of the Department of Transport.

AN HON MEMBER:  Which is a broken promise.

MR J N C WAUGH:  I need not say that it is regrettable that the budget of all the departments have been cut to the extent they have been.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  On a point of order.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  No, it is not a point of order.  Will the hon member take a question?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will you take a question?

MR J N C WAUGH:  I will not take a question.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  No.  Thank you.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  He must be scared.

MR J N C WAUGH:  At this stage one should compliment the Department of Transport on their attitude towards these cuts.  The Department has a person seconded to it from the private sector whose sole responsibility it will be to closely keep an eye on the budget, and ensure that the Department at all times stays within that budget.  That is an initiative I think many departments can follow, and we must thank the Department for this action.

Chairperson, on this issue, one would like to request the Department of Finance to closely look at the monthly budget needed by this Department.  We all know it is difficult to build roads in the rainy season.  Therefore the request for funds differ from month to month.  The formula by the Department of Finance gives departments the same amount per month, and that will not work in the case of this Department.  The Department of Transport went out of its way to budget accurately from month to month.  Therefore, I hope that the Department of Finance will favourably look at this matter.

I need not remind you that our roads are showing the budget cuts.  However, I have other concerns, and that is the highly skilled staff members that the Department has.  I am referring to the engineers employed by this Department.  Will these members of staff be deployed for what they are skilled in or not, considering these budget cuts?  

Our roads will soon be beyond repair, therefore we must now request the Budget Council to bear this in mind when looking at the future budgets.

An initiative we have to compliment the Department on, is the personalised number plates.  To date more than 2 500 requests for these number plates have been received, generating an income of about R2 million, an income which is dedicated to the rural roads.  A good exercise for the Minister could be to publicly tell us precisely on which roads these monies have been spent.  This might convince others to participate in this project, it might even motivate colleagues in this chamber, like myself, to also participate in this project.

On numerous occasions reference has been made to the heavies breaking up our roads.  Mr Minister, we should make the names of the culprits known, especially those who just pay their fines and continue breaking the law.  What about even gaoling the MD of the relevant company.

Chairperson, in a debate on the Transport budget, we must also refer to the Road Traffic Inspectorate.  Let us thank all these officers, who spend many hours patrolling our roads, for a job well done.  We know their budget has also been cut drastically, but let them keep up the good work.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is the point of order?  

MR A RAJBANSI:  These hon comrades are not behaving like comrades, and I am in order.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Point taken.

MR J N C WAUGH:  Chairperson, may I have some injury time please.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order!

MR J N C WAUGH:  We must also refer to the corruption in this Department.  The Department has been cracking down on it.  This is also one way of staying within the budget.

Roads are the lifeline of a country.  A country's economy is dependent on the state of our roads.  If we read the annual report and have listened to the Minister, we all should add our voice to emphasise the consequences of the cuts we are facing.  I totally agree with the Minister where he says, "It is not the wealth of our nation that builds our roads, but rather our roads that build our nations". 

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question?

MR J N C WAUGH:  I will not take a question.

MR A RAJBANSI:  What is the difference between ...

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Chairman, on a point of order.  The member must speak from his own seat, and at the moment he is obstructing the speech of the hon member.  Really, I believe you should take action against him.  He is abusing privileges in this House.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the hon member move to his seat whilst the speaker is sitting down please.  Will the member move to his seat.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am referring to the hon Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, on a point of order.  The NATS are upset because with the building of roads there is no difference between Hitler and the NATS.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is not a point of order.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Mr Chair, that is not a point of order.  Please can you rule to keep this hon member quiet.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  There seems to be no point of order.  The hon Mr Waugh, will you please continue.

MR J N C WAUGH:  I thank you, Chairperson.  The question, however, is why does this Minister not convince his colleagues at national level on this statement he made?  It is one thing to criticise provincial budget allocations while the party you belong to do the same to roads at a national level.

Yesterday one of the colleagues, on my right, said that I have not been in this chamber since 1994.  That is correct.  I took the place of a colleague who went to Cape Town to experience the politics there.  It might be a good idea if some of the colleagues on my right hand did just that.  It is easy for them to sit here, criticise and draw up reports about what Provincial Government has done and not done, but it is another thing to be in another chamber where you criticise and reports come to your side and you must field for that, like their colleagues are doing down there.  I can tell them, their colleagues are not comfortable with what is happening down there.

Mr Minister, while we are on this issue.  Why can we not get some of those widely spoken of RDP funds to assist us in this Province?  Lately, it appears to me that the word "RDP" is not so often used any more.  One of these days I presume it will be unparliamentary to use it.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Only two minutes left for the hon member.

MR J N C WAUGH:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  The new buzz word, of course, is GEAR.  I wonder how long it will take before that also disappears from the scene.

I will to refer to the hon Mr Bhamjee who today once again presented a motion, "Re squatters in Mountain Rise in Maritzburg".  He blames the Minister of Local Government and Housing, but I must just tell the hon Mr Bhamjee, it is not the Minister of Local Government and Housing ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is your point of order?

MR A RAJBANSI:  It is against our Rules to debate a notice of motion.

MR J N C WAUGH:  I am not.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yesterday he violated the Rules, he abused the privilege of this House and he accuses me of doing so.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Point taken.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I hope he sits in the House when I take the floor.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

MR J N C WAUGH:  Mr Chairman, may I just say that what is happening in that area is due to the ANC controlled council in Maritzburg.

In closing, Chairperson, may I just say that all of us in this chamber should stand together to deliver to the people of this Province.  More so, we must stand together, and I include my ANC colleagues, to increase our allocation from National Government.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thanks for saving us 30 seconds.  Thank you.  I now call ~Inkosi~ uKhawula, [Gabhisa, we are giving you seven minutes, sir.  I will ask them to listen to you, to listen to the ~Inkosi~.  I am requesting you to listen to the ~Inkosi~].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 
THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay.  [We must listen to the ~Inkosi~].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Do not mind them, sir, continue].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 

THE CHAIRPERSON: [The ~Inkosi~ has two minutes left].

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA: 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, sir.  I want to make this point in the speech of Minister Ndebele.  Minister Ndebele is a man who thinks very deeply.  He is a person who thinks indeed, but today, it looks to me as if he has failed.  Because when we all entered into this House, there were paper bags.  Now, in my opinion, I think that the hon Ndebele did not think this thing through, because there in the place of the Premier, he should have put a bag, not a paper bag.  Also, in the Ministers' places and in our places as ~Amakhosi~, he should have put bags, and not paper bags.  [LAUGHTER]

Now, if the hon Minister puts paper bags in our places, he is lowering our dignity, because you would not see an ~Inkosi~ carrying a paper bag.  I should come out of here with a bag.  Those that are in the gallery, they will see a bad example set for them.  They will say they have seen ~Amakhosi~ being given paper bags.  [LAUGHTER]

Secondly, hon Minister, I heard you mention the question of rogues.  I think that I must also speak about the situation at Umzumbe, in an area which is governed by 22 ~Amakhosi~.  The road from Port Shepstone, which goes across to St Faiths and on to Ixopo, is narrow, it is very narrow, hon Minister.  I ask you to take us into account and do something for us, sir.  Even if there is no money, I ask you to take us into account.  Umzumbe is a very big area indeed.

The road from Park Rynie, which goes up to Ixopo, is also very narrow, sir.  We ask you to do something for us as far as that is concerned.  There are often accidents, a lot of accidents that happen there, and there are a lot of people because ...

It is our great wish, sir, Umzumbe, as far as the South Coast is concerned, is the biggest area, bigger than all the other areas, so please, you must always think of us, sir, you must always think of Umzumbe, as far as the South Coast is concerned.  Now, at Umzumbe, we have 22 ~Amakhosi~, but I am asking because I have pleaded with you many times, and asked you to go to Umzumbe and come and eat amadumbe at Umzumbe, and go to Umzumbe, sir, and go to the meeting of ~Amakhosi~, so that the ~Amakhosi~ can put their complaints to you.  I, who am a member here, am now nothing to the ~Amakhosi~.

I want you to go there, please, and listen to the complaints of the ~Amakhosi~.  I am not joking when I mention these things, when I say that I am no longer anything at Umzumbe, because I am regarded as a failure.  I was sent by the ~Amakhosi~ to come and ask you, but you did not come.  My dignity has been lowered.  I do not think I will come back in 1999, because you are doing me a disservice by not coming to Umzumbe.  A disservice is being done to me by you.  You do not want to come to Umzumbe.  We are waiting for you at Umzumbe, sir.  [LAUGHTER]

I am asking you to think of me and come to Umzumbe, so that my dignity can be restored to the ~Amakhosi~ at Umzumbe.

Hon Minister, the work that you are doing is very good.  We have heard on the television the sound of women making joyful noises in certain areas.  There are also women in our area at Umzumbe and they are also more beautiful than those that you go to, because our women are close to the sea.  [LAUGHTER]

You must go to Umzumbe and listen to the complaints at Umzumbe.  We also have women.  Umzumbe would not have existed if there were no people there, as there are indeed people there.  Go to the people of Umzumbe.  Beautiful women will come and make joyful noises to Your Honour.

They are clear skinned as a result of the sea, they are white.  Thank you, sir.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you, sir, for giving us these two minutes].  I would like to call the hon J D Mkhwanazi.  You have five minutes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you very much.  Mr Chairperson, before I make my statement, let me thank you very much for having allowed this special dispensation.  I also want to thank my colleague Mr Nel, and the Whips for having allowed the Rules to be bent.  The fact that I want to speak now, Mr Chairperson, is that my wife is in hospital and I have to go there, as soon as possible to go and see her.  That is why I have requested this special dispensation.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Chairperson, I have nothing more than showers of praise for the Minister and his Department, for the work well done.  The Minister has known me for a long time.  Sometimes I talk to him like I talk to my son, for which I do not apologise.  I specifically want to express my appreciation for the completion of the road from Stanger to Empangeni.  That road was a real killer and it wasted a lot of time.  It has reduced my travelling time from Durban to my home at Empangeni by 30 minutes.  So I do it in 1 hour 30 minutes at normal speed.

I must also thank my friend Motala.  I was a pain in his neck, whenever, there was an accident and a person was killed.  I would phone him even at midnight and say, "My friend, when is that road going to be completed".  Definitely the accident rate has been reduced.  In spite, of course, of the tragedy of the IFP members who died there, may God bless their souls.

It is such a pity, Mr Chairperson, that the Minister's budget has been cut by 30%.  Be that as it may, I would like to appeal to the Minister, I know he is trying hard, to do something about the roads in the areas of KwaMathethwa and KwaMpukunyoni.  Those are some of the biggest areas of our Province, and unfortunately the soil is so fertile that with a little rain the transport gets stuck.  It is not sandy, when it rains people are in serious trouble.

I appreciate the efforts of the Minister's Department, particularly the Traffic Road Inspectors.

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Ndonga sir, you have two minutes left].

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Amongst some of the quarters I visit when people drink, I do not drink but I visit and I am with them, they always say [you must be careful, Sbu's boys are waiting for you on the road].  Meaning that you must just drink enough because S'bu's boys are waiting for you on the way and definitely they are waiting for them.  I want the Minister to tell his boys that they must not stop me and breathalyse me because I only have wine in church, I do not drink wine.  [LAUGHTER]  I always tell them when they breathalyse, I say, "No, no, I only have wine in church".

On a serious note, I think they are doing a very good job.  It is helping.  I know it is not good when we are rushing to Parliament that we have to keep our eyes on the speedometer.  But I think it is a good job that is being done.  Even though the budget has been cut, I support the vote and I wish the Department all the best.  I thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you, Shamase, sir].  Our next speaker is the hon Mr Haripersaad, seven minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  I should have attacked that one.

MR R HARIPERSAAD:  Mr Chairman, and colleagues, I would like to praise the Minister for his budget speech.  The budget for Transport for the year 1998/1999 financial year is R444 million.  This distribution represents a 25,7% less than the projected annual expenditure.  The repercussions of this tight budget will be witnessed by the motorists as the Department of Transport prepares to cut back its work excessively.

An initial management plan for the road maintenance advocated that the Department terminate 85% of all contract work at the beginning of April.  This leaves 15% of the budget for the emergency work.  With these severe cutbacks, motorists face drastic consequences, especially on the provincial and secondary roads.  I see this budget clearly as a "forbidden option", since roads are bound to receive minimum routine maintenance.  Budget restrictions force the Department to do "patch up" work on roads that badly need resurfacing.  Many roads are in a very bad condition, with potholes and many surfaces riddled with cracks.  These symptoms are getting worse and worse by the day.  This will lead to a level where major reconstruction is required.

Mr Chair, we will have to look at the long term effects, thus proposing a "quick fix".

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR R HARIPERSAAD:  Mr Chair, I do not want to be disturbed please.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please do not disturb him.

MR R HARIPERSAAD:  Because if I fly, I fly.  If I drive, I drive.  Solutions will only serve to be much more expensive in the latter case.  Clearly then, the "forbidden" route should not be travelled on.  This belt-tightening process has culminated in responses from sectors in the civil engineering industry and business.  These cutbacks will force the Province to conduct retrenchments and other cost-cutting measures.  Retrenchment without adequate management capacity will not yield improvements in efficiency.  Thus it becomes imperative that we vigorously set priorities straight.  We as a Province have inherited backlogs from the previous Government.  These backlogs occur in the form of too few schools, roads, clinics and houses.

This indicates that when the provinces were created, provincial functions received allocations that were much lower, in real terms, than before the provinces were created.  According to the Transport Department's proposal to deal with the 25% cut to their budget, which is R444 million this year, staff has to ensure minimum spending and priority.  The severe financial cutbacks also sees the possibility of provincial toll roads.

It should also be noted that KwaZulu-Natal is also responsible for implementing many new policies of the Government.  The drive to create community access roads etcetera, has not taken into account the cost implications of such policies.  The community access roads are the life blood of the people.  Clearly then, the cost implications are not properly computed, neither are additional funds made available for its implementation.

The call to restrain carries with it dire implications.  Some of these cutbacks include, studs on guidelines be placed only where absolutely necessary, guard rails be purchased only for accidental damage and signs be placed only where crucial.  There will be no weed control, bridge inspections will stop and "severely damaged black top roads will be ripped up because they will fail prematurely".  The dilapidation of roads will take the toil on all of us, since none of us are exempt from using the roads.

The Department has also planned to increase the driver's licence fees to make up for cuts.  These are just a few examples.  Mr Chair, there is a clear contradiction from the Central Government.  All these measures that I have listed do not seem to affect national roads, and is just confined to KwaZulu-Natal.  To me, it seems that transport departments funded by the Central Government are not effected.  At this point, I want to reiterate that much of this budget seems to be inappropriate of our socio-economic circumstances.

KwaZulu-Natal's rural areas lack community access roads.  These roads are close to the heart of the rural people.  The poorest of the poor rely on these roads.  The absence of these roads will threaten their subsistence and livelihood.  Yet due to the lack of funds, road infrastructure comes to a standstill and this is coupled with no delivery of services.  This further indicates that the National Government does not understand our problem in KwaZulu-Natal.  Mr Chair, we cannot deprive these poor people of roads.  The ~Apartheid~ legacy has deprived them of too much, but it is now time to give back something to them.

In closing, I want to say that the current crisis in our provincial finances must be seen as a problem of a national system that is not being managed effectively.  The National Government attempts to devolve the crisis and overspending onto the Provincial Government.  We need to develop an effective system that is consistent with a democratic order.  At the same time, we should not jeopardise the lives of our people using the roads.  Our road budget cuts will bite deep and the motorists will have to utilise poorly maintained roads.

Our goal is to provide safe, efficient and effective transportation ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  30 seconds left.

MR R HARIPERSAAD:  For the benefit of the public and economy.  Yet without the funds we will fail in our functions.  With the scant resources allocated to us, we cannot simply continue and hope that more funds will come later.  We want to retain our existing road works as long as possible, but without the maintenance and building of the new roads, we tread on a thin line.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member's time is over.

MR R HARIPERSAAD:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We shall now call upon the hon Mr Rajbansi for five minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, if ever a Minister in this Province deserved the highest accolade for excellent performance, and for delivery, for real delivery, it is the present Minister of Transport.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  But of course, it could not have been possible without an excellent and very co-operative Portfolio Committee.  Further strengthened by very youthful staff under the guidance of the Head of the Department, Jenny Gray and her young team.  I think they also deserve a lot of credit.

You know, Mr Chairman, I was not saying in jest that there was a great similarity between Adolf Hitler of Nazi Germany and the National Party, because the historical records will show, take it out of National Intelligence, that both Adolf Hitler and the National Party built wonderful roads, not in the rural areas where they should have been, but mainly for military purposes.

I want to appeal to the hon Minister, ~Apartheid~ on our roads is not dead, because the National Party and the Democratic Party competed in this Province how they are going to trample the Indian community, and they did that after 1994.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MR A RAJBANSI:  They did that, white lies.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Look at the minutes of the Durban Central Council.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the speaker address the chair please.

MR A RAJBANSI:  After 1994 when the Minority Front proposed that Alamein Avenue be reopened when the road to the La Lucia Mall was closed by the DP and the NATS recently.  Recently, after reform started, that the people of Phoenix, people of KwaMashu, people of Inanda who are black people, should not pass a white residential area.  That still remains.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A RAJBANSI:  And six months ago when the Minority Front, after the 1994 elections, proposed that Alamein Avenue be reopened, it was closed because they did not want an Indian face from Phoenix to drive through white residential areas.  The ANC supported us, the IFP supported us and the DP and the National Party were competing now how to oppose lifting ~Apartheid~.  This is not fiction, Mr Chairman, they are facts and they are realities, and they are going to be given to every Indian home, every black African home during the 1999 campaign.  Those minutes will be handed out.  This is some of the cannons we have against those people who compete even now how to trample the Indian community.  As long as the Minority Front remains, because in this House a National Party MP gave notice to me that I will be ground to political dust, and I am here.  I am a survivor.

AN HON MEMBER:  You will have a heart attack.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I will not have a heart attack, I will get 10 out of it.  I belong to the cat family and the cat has nine lives.  So what I say, I want to appeal to the Minister, in Umhlathuzana Township they asked the local Transportation Board to amend a certificate because they did not want black people to pass white suburbs.  The National Party and the Democratic Party, and they want to go for the Indian votes in 1999.  I will tell them MF, to them it means "my foot" will they get it.  [LAUGHTER]

But, Mr Chairman, I want to congratulate the Minister and the Department of Transport, for rooting out corruption.  It was R30 million here, according to the Minister, it was reduced to R6 million.  For 60 years we have our Traffic Inspectorate.  You know, Mr Minister, we must hang our heads in shame.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute left.

MR A RAJBANSI:  We must hang our heads in shame that our Traffic Inspectorate are underpaid, and they are a credit to this Province for road safety, etcetera.  The first thing, you go to Minister Mac Maharaj and your comrade, who is the Minister in charge of the Public Service, to review the salary of our Traffic Inspectorate in the country.  I will say, Mr Chairman, this is some of the small things, what I said about the NATS and the DP is a reality, it is not fiction.

I want to thank the IFP and the ANC publicly for supporting removal in Durban.  If you do not know the minutes, I will get the minutes.  We will advertise it, but the NATS and the DP want the Indian vote, they will never, never get it while I am alive and well.  They did not reduce me to political dust, and they will never, never do it.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Mr Rajbansi.  Our next speaker, [Mathaba, sir, seven minutes].     

~INKOSI~ K W MATHABA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Before I continue with the contents of the speech, I would like to comment on the criticism by the Minister of Transport.  The Minister really lacks maturity when making blatant comments about our hon Premier.  Our Premier is totally committed to good governance, an honest and an open Government.  Such comments coming back to 1999 are uncalled for.

Mr Chairman, I want to start off by saying that the money that has been allocated for the Transport budget, is not sufficient, that is true.  Reports often portrayed KwaZulu-Natal as "failing", rather than having to battle to cope with the enormous challenges facing them.  We definitely have a financial crisis in KwaZulu-Natal, and with the little money that has been allocated for transport we are putting motorists and pedestrians at risk.  Lack of funds means that no new roads will be built, and no roads will be repaired.  Roads will only be repaired when necessary.

We are the ones that are crying, "no money, no money", while the TRC has carried on with its business.  The TRC has over the past 18 months assisted in convincing more white South Africans what was fundamentally unjust and each victim has a right to reparation.  But, what about our rural poor?  They rely on the soil for their subsistence, but without community access roads they can forget about selling their products.

Mr Chairman, hon members of this House, the challenge is how do we face these rural poor and tell them that we do not have enough money for new roads?  How are we, as parliamentarians, going to deliver the goods if there is no money available?  We cannot play politics here, due to the fact that the National Government has underfunded KwaZulu-Natal.  Why does a disparity exist between our Department and the National Department?  There is definitely a lack of symmetry between the National and the Provincial Government.  It is because someone is trying to discredit the KwaZulu-Natal Government.  We need to achieve equity in KwaZulu-Natal and this reduction will not help us.  There are incidences of fraud and corruption in the Transport Department.  Often vehicles are used for personal and private use, and there are other incidents of theft of diesel and money etcetera.  I would like to know how many cases of fraud and theft have been reported to the Department?  If it is so, what action has been taken?

The budget cut means a drastic reduction in money spent on road construction, maintenance, and services to the public.  The road construction budget has been sliced to 47%, the rural access road budget by 40%, while the road maintenance budget has been cut by 33%.  Roads need to be maintained.  There are often  potholes and with the lack of funds roads will not be maintained.

This in turn will create hazardous driving conditions.  Our R11 billion road network will not be appropriately maintained.  We cannot risk the lives of our people.  Roads need constant upgrading and managing.  We can forget about this.

The tight budget cuts will be felt by the workers.  Thousands of workers will be retrenched, which is true as they will be without jobs and access to income.  Many will have no other option but to turn to crime, as is happening now if you have read the Mercury of today.  People are hijacking cars in the Mtunzini area.  They have even tried to hijack a cash in transit vehicle.  The Department is currently operating on only 40% of what is required to carry out its basic duties.  These basic duties imply that minimal work is being done on the roads.

Mr Chairman, in conclusion, the severe budgetary cuts will result in toll plazas being erected.  Provincial toll plazas will become an option to help alleviate the serious budgetary constraints.  Whether this will work or not, nobody knows, I really do not know.  The money for the Department is really not sufficient.  We cannot overlook the fact that the roads and maintenance of roads is essential.  I do not have to go into details about the importance of safe driving conditions, but these brutal cuts are going to have disastrous effects.

Lastly, Mr Chairman, in closing, I want to say that there is no time for complacency in the Department.  We need to strive forward with minimum corruption, theft and fraud.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:.  [We thank the ~Inkosi~ for saving us 30 seconds].  I noticed that the hon member Mrs Downs is not here.  We therefore proceed to the next speaker, the hon Mr Magubane.  You have 12 minutes.

MR N E MAGUBANE:  Thank you, Chairperson, for giving me the opportunity to speak.  As you know  this is my first speech in this House.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR N E MAGUBANE:  I come from the rural areas where roads were very bad in the past.  At this point in time, our roads have improved a lot.  There are access roads being built in different areas in our districts and regions.  The taxi operators, as well as the bus operators really appreciate the work that is being done by the Minister and his Department.

The taxi associations in my district, in particular, have already embarked on a new route system and it is working wonders.  There are managers managing each route.  The taxis are running smoothly, without fighting as was the case in the past.


TRANSLATION:  In continuing, I want to say when we talk about this Department, we are talking about a Department which has clearly shown that it knows where the suffering of the people is.  The people's suffering did not emanate out of no-where, but it emanated from the places where they live.  As a result of that the Government that is now in control, which is the Government of Black people who fought and gained the country, they look at everything that impacts on the different communities.

So if we have people such as the Minister of Transport and other Ministers who are able to look at the needs of the people, and regard it as important that there should be on-going development and that there should be infra-structure, or certain things that are done that make the people aware that as far as those things are concerned, if the Government that was present at that time had been voted for by them, those things would not have been present in the past.

We are looking at roads that are now being built, that grow across rivers large and small, that bring equality to hillocks and hills, that make it possible for people to communicate.  And that schools that were across the river are able to attract children from across the river, even if it is raining they are still able to cross.  Bridges are built to bring these families together.  Others who want to till the soil right down at the river are able to till the soil because roads have been built, leading there.

In continuing from there, I say that is not the end.  Upon realising that this would not happen unless important things such as transport forums, were able to bring people together, people who come from different places, or different districts, so that they may come together with their needs and put them forward and talk about them.  They need to discuss which area will be the first area to be attended to when the Department makes money available for the building of roads.  They made that very clear and this modus operandi has been put into operation for the first time.  Today we see buses travelling where no bus has ever travelled before.  We see taxis travelling where no taxi has ever travelled before.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Sorry, Nkomose].  I would like to remind members that this is his maiden speech, and we need to be as quiet as we can to give him an opportunity to express himself.  Carry on Nkomose.

MR N E MAGUBANE: 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, please

MR N E MAGUBANE:  

TRANSLATION:  So as far as that is concerned, it would be a mistake if someone in this House today were to say there is no transport forum at the place where he lives.  That is his desire, that is what he wants, because he does not want development.  And then that person goes around saying he does not see what is happening in the world.

We see a lot of things happening.  There are emerging contractors.  In these emerging contractors there are people who are in charge of them, who work in them, who are in a position to explain to all the people what they are, and what they intend to do.  And also why they were not there in the past.

We see people today doing things that were not possible to do in the past.  In times past we used to see trucks of contractors whom we did not know, going to different places, taking sand and fixing roads.  We did not know with whom these people had reached agreements to work in such a fashion, while the people of the area were hungry and starving.  

We find these people in the emerging contractors working on the roads.  Some of them are slashing grass.  All these opportunities are only available now.  If somebody was to stand up now and say these opportunities have existed for a long time, since his ancestors were alive, it would be a person who was born on a date which was unknown to us.  

The ~Apartheid~ Government, the one that Mahlobo here has just referred to, brought him up in a bad way in the knowledge that the bosses were better, whereas we here say everybody is the same and they have rights in this land.

There is a necessity for people to enjoy the economy of the country in the same way and live the same life-style.  No person should look down on another person.  We need a situation where people are aware of the fact that their futures do not depend on somebody else, but on themselves, because the Government says, "Help yourselves, so that I too can help you to help yourself, so that you will be something that the country will look at tomorrow".

Whatever the situation, whatever they may call it, the truth is known in this House as to who the authors of all this is.  Who is it that made it possible for us to be in this House?  Who is it that made it possible for everybody to get up knowing that the country is no longer the country of years past.  We are saying here in this House, we need to have people who are enlightened, who know that when they are in this House, they are representing their families and that they have to develop their country so that it can go forward.  They need to know that their areas are not developed because there was a bad situation which suppressed the Black person.
  
Today we find a situation where our Minister is armed with all the types of weapons necessary to make it possible for people to take the necessary weapon to do the work that they regard as being necessary to be done, so that they can take that weapon and go to their work and do it.  He does not look at a situation where it is said that so-and-so is entitled to do that work.  The opportunity exists for anybody.
  
As the Government which is in power, which exists, we say it is necessary for everybody to get up and stand on their feet and be counted in the development of South Africa.  There are roads, there is everything, people who were deprived of opportunities, such as the Black people, ways should be constructed so that those people are brought to the fore.  They should be given an opportunity, so that they too can in future be counted as people who struggled to build a new South Africa.

We are in the new South Africa, but it will remain just a name as the new South Africa if we do not have Ministers such as the ones that we are talking about now, who have regard for the people's needs and have regard for the things that the people do to develop themselves, personally.

These things will not happen if there are people who still say, "We will not do that because we did not see our boss, Verwoerd, doing it".  Verwoerd did not come here to help you.  He came to help his own people.  So this opportunity that we have now, we are saying to the Minister, when you are working, do not look back to see who is following you.  You must know that there are people such as us, who are following you and who want to see the communities that we come from and those that we do not come from, achieve success in so far as that everything gets done.

Those people in the rural areas who suffer from hunger, as I mentioned previously, will not be hungry if all these things, as the Minister is trying to create opportunities in different spheres.  These things need people who are thinkers, who would want all the families to have things that they are busy doing and be able to tell people, and give them opportunities for training so that these things will be part of development which is on-going and will provide a bright future for everybody.  Thank you, Chairperson.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:. [Thank you, Nkomose, you have made your contribution].  Once more, I am calling for order please.  Our next speaker is the hon Mr Nel.  You have seven minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR W U NEL: 

TRANSLATION:  Hon Chairperson, I also want to congratulate the hon Mr Magubane on his maiden speech.  He speaks as one who is used to speaking in this House as I listened to him.  I also want to thank him for the matter that he has raised when he said opportunities largely occur when there are roads in the communities.  Opportunities are created for communities that are close to roads and for those that are in the towns and near amenities, but they are also created for SMME's that obtain work when roads are built.

I was also thankful to hear the hon Minister Ndebele talking about the road that is going to be built for the SDI.  When we get to the vicinity of Ponta do Oura, I trust that the people of the area will be happy as a result of the opportunities that will be created.
 
But we too will be happy to get the opportunity to go and see this thing that was seen by Jeqe in Thonga.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

Mr Chairman, we have indeed had sad events come across our way in the current year.  The events, include the burning of the bus on the N2, as well as the disaster at Newcastle.  We all wish again to express our condolences with the next of kin of the many victims of those unfortunate accidents.  That does not take away from the efforts of this Department to actually improve their record on road safety, to improve the conditions as best we can within the constrained budgets.

We also, from this side would like to congratulate the Deputy Director-General, Ms Gray, on her secondment to the National Department for a very important job.  Whilst we regret that we will be losing some of her efforts in the Province, because of the constraints of time, we are also happy with the knowledge that better co-operation by this Province with the National Department will be to our advantage.

Sir, whilst many people have thanked the Minister for various things, I must say that no department is perfect, but this Minister and his Department certainly have done very well.  Whilst I regard the hon member Mrs Millin's criticism as extremely harsh in the circumstances, I must, however, latch on to one of the points raised by her.  That is the issue of the new card licences.

There are many old age pensioners who are now faced with the prospect of having to renew their licence or to replace it with a card licence at a cost of R75, plus photos which is an expense which some people may find affordable, but certainly many old age pensioners have a serious problem with it.  I would urge the Minister to look especially at the plight of pensioners.  There are of course others we could also mention, but we appreciate that in practice it is impossible to make exceptions for everybody.  If he could simply look at the plight of the pensioners.

Then also in that regard, the speed at which these cards are issued needs to be looked at.  Because if people are going to find extreme delays in the course of accessing this new card licence there are going to be problems.  We would regret that because the idea is definitely a good one and an essential one for proper control of what is happening on our roads.

Mr Chairman, the Minister unfortunately, and it is not his fault, says in the introduction to his speech that he takes pleasure in the achievements of his Department, but it is with sadness that he views this budget and its implications, and the implications are indeed serious.  The first one is that economic development is going to be retarded.  Unfortunately, the departmental dictum that prosperity comes through mobility will not be achieved as it should have been.

The second implication of course is that not only millions of Rands, but billions will be wasted in extra costs, because to undertake the maintenance at a later stage will be so many times more expensive than if it were done now.

The third implication is that there will be an under-utilisation of existing departmental personnel, expertise and equipment, because there is simply not the money to employ them to their full potential.

The fourth implication again, is that there will be losses of millions and perhaps billions of Rands through extra unnecessary repairs and maintenance that have to be incurred by the operators of vehicles.

Lastly, sir, and also importantly, many people will forfeit opportunities that might well have arisen through small, medium and micro enterprise opportunities such as the Department has already achieved in the past year.  That again, simply because there is not sufficient money to operate what we would think an adequate budget.

Regretfully, the Democratic Party cannot support a budget such as this.  While we appreciate it is not the Minister's fault, it is part of a provincial budget that we think does not identify properly the priorities in the Province.  The reality is simply unacceptable.  We have had a 30% cut in the budget from about R700 million down to R444 million.  Over five years, from 1994/1995, the share of the Transport Department's budget, its share of the provincial budget, has reduced from 4,3% to 2,5%.  This is about a 40% budget reduction relative to other departments, which again we say is unacceptable.

If we look at personnel costs, it now totals 56% of the Transport Department budget compared to 36% last year.  

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has only one minute left.

MR W U NEL:  An unacceptable jump in a Department that should be delivering by buying tar, stone and gravel.  Sir, this is stupidity and it needs to be rectified.  The Minister illustrated it adequately by referring to the implications in the Eshowe/~Ulundi~ road, where he illustrated the effect on cost by neglecting the maintenance.

Lastly, and I do not have a chance to talk about any other thing, the hon member Mr Ainslie, raised the possibility of funding through a fuel levy.  We have for seven/eight years proposed, that the only way to fund roads and transport adequately will be with a dedicated fuel levy, a dedicated levy which will take care of all roads, from the community roads all the way through to national roads.  Toll roads are not the answer.  They are expensive to run, they are unfair and they are also only going to have limited fund-raising capabilities, sir.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am afraid the hon member's time is up.

MR W U NEL:  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Our next speaker is the hon Mr Dingila.  You have seven minutes.

MR T F DINGILA:  Mr Chairman, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Transport on the improvements he has done on the roads.  I know that his Department is one of the most difficult ones to manage, mainly because it involves transport.  Anything mobile is subjected to mechanical maintenance.  This is very expensive.  However, his continuous efforts to uplift the standard of the rural roads is significant.

Our roads have definitely improved.  While on this point, I would like to honestly express my feelings regarding this Department.  I have listened with attention to various people commending the Minister on his good performance.  The people will always reflect the true picture of what is happening outside there.

Contrary to the high praise I have heard from various districts, people of Ndwedwe district are crying, moaning and suffering, because of the bad roads they have to travel on.  It is very painful to realise that of all the KwaZulu-Natal districts, Ndwedwe is the only one that has no macadamised road to the magistrate's offices.  This district is amongst the oldest magisterial districts in the Province, yet it still has 15 kilometres to be tarred.  I am talking about the P100.  I hope the Minister is aware of that.

Outside here, sir, my vehicle is parked and it has a broken windscreen, and two broken fog lights.  Unfortunately on dusty and dry days our vehicles become extremely dirty.  On rainy days people have to walk a distance of 15 kilometres from an area called Engonweni to Emalangeni.

MR B H CELE:  Chairperson, a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your point of order?

MR B H CELE:  Can we be told what hon Mrs Millin is stopping there?

AN HON MEMBER:  She must just go out.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the member please remove that.

MRS T E MILLIN:  I will remove it.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will you please continue, Mr Dingila.

MR T F DINGILA:  Thank you, Mr Chair.  People have to walk a distance of 15 kilometres from Engonweni to Emalangeni, because buses cannot travel the hilly areas.  I am 57 years old, and still have to endure the blows that are thrown to the community by the cruel Governments.  I am talking of three categorical Governments that have existed in this country.  From the colonists to the ~Apartheid~ Government, lastly to the communists.  I am sorry, sir, not communist, but ANC Government.  [LAUGHTER] [They say they are the same, Mr Chairman].

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay, we understood.  Please proceed.

MR T F DINGILA:  There should be a good reason that makes this beautiful district to be ostracised.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Please carry on, Mr Dingila.

MR T F DINGILA:  Sir, there should be a good reason for this beautiful district, I am talking about the district of Ndwedwe, which is the most beautiful district, always to be ostracised.  This could be a deliberate effort orchestrated by some people in your Department, Mr Minister.  If this is the case, I am bringing this to your notice today as a Minister.  I would like you, sir, to personally attend to this matter and report the outcome to your monitor.  The monitor is the Chairman of Finance, uBaba uMakhaye.

I have been made to understand that the engineering wing of the Department of Agriculture will be surrendering their machinery to the Department of Transport.  I do not know whether that is true or just hearsay.  I sincerely hope that this will not be the case of from the pan into the fire.

The Minister mentioned the incident which happened at Ndwedwe last year.  I quote:

		There is the classic tale of the headmaster at Ndwedwe who crossed a river carrying matric exam papers on his head last December.

I am happy to inform you, Mr Minister, that the bridge is about to be completed.  There was a site meeting today.  We at Ndwedwe are happy about that.  Nevertheless, please, Minister, fulfil your promise.  People need macadamised roads at Ndwedwe.

There is one thing that is appreciated in your Department.  You are a media darling.  Most of the events that take place in your Department are on the air.  The question is, is it because of the good job you do or otherwise?  If it is because of the good job you do I hope other Ministers will receive the same coverage.  Kindly ask your comrades nationally, sir, to give you more funds.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute left.

MR T F DINGILA:  If you had sufficient funds, hopefully you could complete more work, because it is just a bit, just an extra mile that you have got to take then you will be home.  But most of all please, Minister, make sure that our roads in Ndwedwe are tarred.  I thank you, sir.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Our next speaker is the hon Mr Volker.  You have nine minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, let us acknowledge the positive aspects.  The hon the Minister's efforts must be acknowledged in taking ongoing pro-active initiatives in curbing the taxi violence.  His efforts must be acknowledged in promoting road safety projects very vigorously, and I thank him for that.  I must thank him for his regular attendance and interest in Portfolio Committee meetings, and also his efforts to upgrade the roads in black rural areas.

I would like to comment on an ongoing remark by Mr Ainslie, trying to create the impression that I am not supportive or was not supportive of that in the past.  First of all, he was still wet behind the ears at the time.  [LAUGHTER]  But, the situation is that I was MEC for Roads in the Province of Natal, and had no authority in the area, that was the responsibility of the KwaZulu Government.  But, together with the KwaZulu Government we had the Joint Executive Authority, and the hon Minister Mr Mtetwa, the hon Minister Dr Vincent Zulu, the hon Minister Mr Peter Miller and also the hon Chairman of the Health Portfolio Committee, will remember our efforts in the Joint Executive Authority to bring about co-operation.  In fact we brought about administrative co-operation in the Department of Roads so that there could be a joint effort to upgrade the roads in the whole Province, including in KwaZulu.

But, the hon member Mr Ainslie, because of his master's voice telling him that he must criticise the National Party, because of ~Apartheid~ policies, distorts the facts.  But, Mr Chairman, I have mentioned the positive aspects of the hon the Minister of Transport.  I have not come only to praise him, but I have also come to address the weaknesses as well.

I would like to express the wish, and I certainly hope that I will not be shouted down by the rowdies.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  Order!

MR V A VOLKER:  I would like to point out a statement which he made right at the beginning of his speech, where he said:

		The challenge of this Government is to undo ~Apartheid~ planning which have kept vast rural areas of KwaZulu trapped in the 17th Century.

The 17th century was from the year 1600 till 1699.  Now I do not know what he meant by that.  If he meant that they were in fact being trapped in 17th century situations, whereas the first white people came to this Province in about 1820, and that was the 19th century, not the 17th century.  If his statement is intended to create the impression that as soon as the white man came here the Zulus were entrapped in the 17th century, two centuries before the white man came here, then I would like to ask him, what kept the Zulus in the 17th century when in the beginning of the 19th century there were no whites here?  What is his racist thinking?

Mr Chairman, the same type of racist thinking we have heard ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Give the man a hearing please.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, I would like to say that the hon Mr Rajbansi is breaking the line.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR V A VOLKER:  But while he is coming into the House, he is guilty of the same type of besotted racism as the hon Minister of Transport.  He is guilty of the same type of besotted racism, because the question of the roads through Montclair and Woodlands, and the question of the roads ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR V A VOLKER:  I am not prepared to accept his interference now.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Because you are scared of me.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order, Mr Rajbansi.  The hon Mr Rajbansi cannot speak from that chair.

MR V A VOLKER:  And the situation is that he knows very well that when the traffic in certain streets becomes too heavy you build bypasses.  Why is there an outer ring road?  Why is there a bypass past Pietermaritzburg?  Why is there a bypass past Colenso?  

MR A RAJBANSI:  Because it was built for whites only.

MR V A VOLKER:  Or because the city centres and residential areas cannot carry the heavy traffic that comes with link roads.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Ja, but those were for whites only.

MR V A VOLKER:  It has nothing whatsoever to do with racism, and the hon member Mr Rajbansi should clearly know that his type of besotted racism is only exposing him as the racist that he is.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon Mr Rajbansi cannot speak from that chair.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, I am not prepared to be interfered with by this racist.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order! Order please!

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, the other aspect which was also intended to be a racist remark is on page 20 of the Minister's speech.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman.  On a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is your point of order?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, I am not prepared to be interfered with.

MR A RAJBANSI:  It is not a question.  Point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is your point of order?

MR A RAJBANSI:  I ask you for a ruling.  When the hon member said the racist, he was referring to me.  That is unparliamentary.  But, because I have got broad shoulders, and he knows the tongue lashing he can get from me, I will not ask you to ask him to apologise, because his party is sinking like the Titanic.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your point has been taken.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, the other racist remark by the hon the Minister, was when he referred on page 20:

		Since 1994 our motor licensing section has moved away from the overgoverned and overregulated bureaucracy associated with ~Apartheid~ South Africa.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is true.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, may I ask him whether he favours the non-~Apartheid~ method of giving licences to the Deputy Speaker in Cape Town, from Mpumalanga, or the non-racist, the non-~Apartheid~ method in which the Minister of Safety and Security from Gauteng drives a car without a licence?  Is that the type of "overregulated" or non-regulated procedure that he prefers?  The situation is plain and simple.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!

MR V A VOLKER:  The situation is plain and simple, that there is an effort to concentrate all criticism of the previous Government purely on racist views, and we reject that.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has only one minute left.
   
AN HON MEMBER:  You can take your seat.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you very much.  Mr Chairman, in winding up, I would like to refer to the potholes, and especially in his reference he also makes ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

MR V A VOLKER:  Will you please sit down.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is that a point of order or question?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is the point of order?

AN HON MEMBER:  Can you sit down, Volker.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Is the hon member referring to the winding up of his party?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is not a point of order.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, in winding up, the Minister referred to the potholes, especially in the Eshowe/~Ulundi~ area.  It would almost appear as though the non-repair of those potholes ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is that a point of order, Doctor?

DR A N LUTHULI:  Question.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Question.  Shall we have the question from the hon Dr Luthuli?  Are you going to take the question, Mr Volker?

MR V A VOLKER:  No.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  No, sorry.

MR V A VOLKER:  This is deliberate interference.  I would just like to refer to the potholes in the Eshowe area.  They appear to be a deliberate revenge by the ANC against the IFP.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  Our next speaker is the hon Mr Ngema.  Mr Ngema, you have 12 minutes.

MR M V NGEMA:  I thank you, Madam Chair, for the opportunity.  I am aware that the chair is changing sex.  Transport and roads are among the very important components in our provision of infrastructure for rural development in our Province.

I must begin my debate by thanking the hon Minister for assisting foreign and other visitors of finding their way to ~Ulundi~, by providing road information signs, though in a limited manner.  

I just hope that it was not intended by the Minister that his report should begin by reading:  "Message from Minister Ndebele, Pietermaritzburg".  If that was intentional, perhaps it would be interpreted as a subtle way of promoting Pietermaritzburg above ~Ulundi~, as the future capital of the Province in showing this city in the road network as reflected in his speech.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M V NGEMA:  Madam Chair, recent surveys have produced statistics that indicate that an alarmingly high percentage of road accidents are attributed to the state of the roads and highways in the Province.  This the Minister has confirmed in his address this afternoon.

The current state of the Nongoma/Pongola R66 linkage is deplorable and certainly contributes to these statistics.  I call upon the Minister and the Department to ensure that travelling on this popular route is made as safe as possible by effecting the repairs and modifications required to bring the road up to standard, worthy of its classification as a provincial and principle trunk road.

In the same vein I call upon the Minister and the Department of Transport to implement the necessary measures required to upgrade the access road to His Majesty the King's Kwakhangela Palace, to a route of its destination, while minimising any personal risk to His Majesty when using this option.

The current safety belt laws are being well policed under the Arrive Alive Campaign, but do not cater for the safety of our most valuable provincial asset, that is our children.  We ensure that adult drivers conform to this law by insisting that all passenger vehicles are properly equipped, but young children, travelling on school buses are not given the option.

I propose that the hon Minister of Transport takes this key safety issue to task and implements steps to ensure that we do not witness, again, the horrors that were recently broadcast across the world, in particular from Newcastle.  
In the process of promoting economic development in rural and underdeveloped areas, the concept of providing trading and transportation centres, to kick-start the economy in these areas has led to the proposal of taxi towns, to which the Minister referred.

These would be termini or stopping points between developments and centres of employment or commerce.  Taxi towns will provide a full suite of services to the taxi industry and passengers alike.  The correct implementation and incentives will provide a platform for the formalisation of the industry, while promoting the security aspects key to implementing such an operation and mutual understanding among the associations.

Lastly, Madam Chair, we appreciate the attempts the Minister and his Department have undertaken to assist the SMMEs in exposing them to tender opportunities.  However, I want to ask this Department and others, to ensure that SMMEs and other emerging contractors in general, do not end up only winning tenders, but that they are able to deliver on the tenders they have acquired.

The majority of SMMEs and emerging contractors are faced with immense frustration after they find their winning of tenders useless when they do not have the financial capacity to commence work in spite of their relevant skills.  I propose a service unit to ensure that attempts that the Minister and his Department have made in this respect are not lost, by failing to completely empower the very important segment of our economy.  I thank you, Madam Chair.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for saving us a few minutes.  We call upon the hon lady Miss M N Buthelezi.  Shenge, you have 12 minutes.

MISS M N BUTHELEZI:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Madam Chair, the ANC Government took office in 1994, and made a commitment to improve the quality of life of all our people.  That is what the hon Minister Ndebele has done.

The hon member Mrs Millin is privileged.  Why does she oppose every project designed to uplift poor black people?  She opposes projects designed to bring economic development to poor black areas.  I wonder why she is in the IFP.  She would be more comfortable in the National Party.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MISS M N BUTHELEZI:  Madam Chair, I believe the hon member Mr Waugh is a member of the Transport Portfolio Committee.  Why did he not raise the issue of overspending in the Committee?  Is he not doing his work properly in that Committee?

Firstly, I want to congratulate the Minister of Transport and his Department for dealing with this Department very intelligently.  I think the reason for that is that the Deputy Director-General of the Department is a woman.  I wish all Ministers will do the same.

The Department of Transport needs to promote a co-ordinated, safe and affordable public transport, as a social service.  It should be flexible enough to take cognisance of local conditions in order to make best use of the available transport infrastructure, and ensure accountability so that the people have control over what is provided.  We should also take into account the transport needs of disabled people.  An effective public owned passenger transport system has developed, and some measures have been taken to control and regulate privately controlled passenger transport by this Department.  Our needs should be guided by the need to use every Rand spent on our roads as wisely as possible in order to ensure that we meet the needs of as many road users as we can.

This Department has worked to ensure that the money spent has resulted in the direct upliftment of communities and SMMEs.  For the Roads Department, the 1998 challenge facing them is to sustain our levels of output despite budgetary limitations and to accelerate SMME development through continued unbundling of roads contracts to emerging businesses.

Chair, I want to congratulate the Minister of Transport and his Department for setting up taxi co-operatives, which have laid the foundation for the development of taxi cities, and assisted them in acquiring land and gaining funding to develop their businesses.

It has been reported that South Africa has the worst road safety record in the world.  Central Government funds were allocated to ameliorate this situation via education enforcement and engineering.  The road safety has been given the priority it deserves by this Department through the ~Siyabakhumbula~ and Asiphephe Campaigns. These campaigns were launched with the objective to ensure that the people of South Africa, especially in this Province, are safe.

By declaring the month of August road safety month in the Province, the Department and local safety road partners offered the people of KwaZulu-Natal an opportunity to acknowledge their grief at the thousands of road deaths that have occurred over many years in this Province.  This campaign has sent out a strong message that the time has come to channel the Province's collective grief into positive support for active road safety programmes, following ~Siyabakhumbula~.  The Provincial Transport Department joined hands with the National Government in a short term enforcement and communication exercise known as Arrive Alive.

The Traffic Department used roadblocks in targeting drunk drivers, speeding and driver's licence violations in order to acquaint the public with the level of enforcement that could be expected with the implementation of Project Victoria.  In this Province these campaigns were initiated in order to turn the spotlight onto road safety issues.  The public supported these campaigns wholeheartedly, and offered Provincial Government a full mandate for implementing Project Victoria as a glove's off approach to road safety.  Project Victoria aims at combining enforcement, strict penalties, high prosecution rates and intensive communication to a multi-programme to change this culture of bad driving on our roads.

In 1997 the Department has again demonstrated the major role that roads play in the development and growth of KwaZulu-Natal.  The Roads Department has used it to turn its commitment to achieving a better life for all into a reality for the people of this Province.  For the rural poor, this has meant tangible delivery through our Roads for the Rural Development Programme.  For established agriculture and business, it has meant exploring ways to arrest the recent deterioration of the established road network, through short term interventions and through road maintenance needs study.

It is exciting to know that the Department has adopted an approach to road construction and maintenance that has been both visionary and pragmatic.  Our approach should be based on a belief that a balanced road network will promote economic development in both urban and rural areas, and will sustain established industrial, commercial, agriculture and tourism activities, while at the same time, bringing an end to the physical, social and economic isolation of rural communities.

During the sitting at ~Ulundi~, some members of this House, especially the majority party, were against the tabling of the Taxi Bill.  These members always claim to represent the people of this Province, while on the other hand, they do not care about their lives.  As the Minister has said, the Taxi Bill will becoming before this House next Thursday, then we will see who cares about the safety and security of KwaZulu-Natal people.

As I have mentioned the efforts that have been made by the Minister and his Department, there are still drivers and operators who are negligent and reckless.  I believe most of these drivers have not got driver's licences.  If a person has no driver's licence he or she cannot obey traffic regulations and road signs.  That is why we still have such horrific accidents, like the one at Newcastle, where 38 pupils and students died.

Therefore, the Minister and his Traffic Department must make sure that accidents of this nature should be combatted at all costs and that traffic officers are adequately deployed in all areas within the Province.  The Transport Department must establish monitoring committees to ensure that drivers can be monitored closely with the objective of weeding out negligent and reckless drivers, and those without licences.  Our traffic officers must perform their responsibilities ruthlessly but efficiently, so that all road users will be forced to abide by the traffic regulations.

Hon Minister, Deputy Director-General, Ms Gray, Department officials and all staff members, keep up your good work.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!  We now call upon the hon the Leader of the House, Mr M B Gwala, with 15 minutes.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  Chairperson, and the House, when you think of transport many things crop up in one's mind.  One can think of roads, bridges, trucks, buses, light vehicles, road accidents, bicycles, motorbicycles, donkeys, horses, cable cars, cars or one can think of the Minister himself, and the Ministry.

I thank the hon Minister of Transport for delivering a well prepared document as the policy speech of his Department.  The Minister has highlighted a number of points regarding the activities of the Provincial Department of Transport.  We thank him very much for that.

I would like to dwell briefly on the road carnage, and the taxi violence which has plagued the entire Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  I am not saying that there is no taxi violence elsewhere, but I am concerned about the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, as one of the leaders, expected to contribute something that will bring peace, lasting peace in this Province.

I might also hint at some of the issues that the Minister touched on, as well as other important points highlighted by the other members who spoke before me.  The road carnage in South Africa is out of proportion.  Every Easter and Christmas holiday provinces appear to be competing with the number of casualties.  Transport experts sometimes are tempted to go as far as to predict how many people are going to be involved in road traffic accidents before the start of the festive season.

According to scientific studies and research, 77% of the accidents are caused by the human factor, 14% are caused by poor road conditions, and 9% of accidents are due to the condition of the vehicle.  However, it is said that 14% are caused by the road, and 9% by vehicles and that boils down to a point that such accidents are indirectly caused by human factors.  In other words, the whole issue of an accident lies with the driver.

The time has come for the Department of Transport to take drastic measures that will lead to severe punishment for those drivers who contravene traffic regulations, especially when it comes to speeding and reckless driving.  A lot has been done by the National and Provincial Department of Transport on this, but my plea is that it is not enough.

Drivers who drink and drive, reckless driving and contravention of traffic laws, the only remedy for this is for the Department to make the driver feel the pinch.  When I talk about drastic measures, I am talking about a uniform policy which will be implemented throughout the country.  Without undermining isolated road accidents, I want to mention just two horrific accidents which took place near Mandini, as other members have already mentioned, where a bus and a diesel truck collided, burning 24 members of the IFP alive who were going to attend the IFP Women's Brigade Conference, and a school bus which was involved in an accident with a truck in Newcastle killing at least 35 pupils.

The Department must be seen to be pro-active in preventing this kind of carnage.  There is a saying that, "Prevention is better than cure", but the big question is, what is the Department doing after the accident?  What happens to a person who is found guilty of negligent driving, whether he or she is alive or not?  What happens to those who are the victims?  I include both the people who are directly involved in the accident, and the dependents who become orphans and widows, due to the negligent driving of a particular driver.

This in fact prompted me to think about a stationary truck which caused a terrible loss of life for members of the IFP.  What happened after we had said, "May their souls rest in peace"?  What did the company do after the accident?  The company failed to utter a word of condolence to the bereaved families.  Sending such a message does not mean accepting responsibility or meaning what is called admission of guilt.  The company should have shown sympathy for those affected, by making a public statement sympathising with the bereaved families.

I am aware that there are insurance companies that are dealing with the matter.  What I am saying is that it is not enough.  The impact is directed to the third party and not to the driver or the owner of the vehicle which caused the accident.  I think a uniform policy must be formulated where the company involved, or the driver feels the pinch.

Such a policy may help to engage the driver or force the company involved to defray funeral expenses and to pay the maintenance for the orphans and widows who were left destitute due to a horrific accident which consumed the breadwinner.

I am not talking about the proposed Sanlam life cover loan as a taxi cover.  I think such a cover is very important, because after the death of a passenger the bereaved family is able to bury the deceased, but the impact is not directed to the vehicle owner or the driver who was negligent.  What we need here, Mr Minister, is an arrangement that can force drivers to be active in trying to avoid the road carnage.

That is why we support the project known as Arrive Alive.  The Department is doing very well with that.  I agree with you, sir, and the hon member of the ANC, Mr Ainslie, that such a project is highly visible, except the ~Siyabakhumbula~ project.

TRANSLATION:  The ~Siyabakhumbula~ Project was the project that caused many people to die.  The hon Ndebele is a Zulu, he knows that those who are asleep will never be remembered by bought chickens and finger lunches.  So I say, for all the successes which have been achieved by the hon Minister, but this matter of waking up the people who are asleep, then they over-turn our vehicles, then a lot of other accidents occur.

People should not be remembered by the Department.  They should be remembered by their families and by their relatives.  But for a Department to interfere with remembering people that have died, was a huge tragedy for this Province.  I would request that we do not ever talk about this issue again, because it creates a situation which is not good in the community.  An issue of people that have passed on from this earth should not be treated in a reckless manner.  A person of the surname Gwala, who died in a road accident, will never be remembered in the Ndebele household.  T/E

To add salt to the wound, is the matter of the taxi violence which has become endemic in our society.  We thought that the National Police Department would assist the Department of Transport in trying to combat this violence, but it is in vain.  
AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House): [I do not want every time that I am speaking for there to be a small dog barking].
It is true that certain senior police officials have an interest in the taxi industry.

MR B H CELE:  Lady Chair, a point of order.

AN HON MEMBER:  He is not prepared to take any question.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Is it a question?

MR B H CELE:  No it is a point of order.  I think the language used by the member definitely needs to be withdrawn.  It is completely unparliamentary to say, [I am not prepared for the fact that when I am talking, a small dog is barking]. Definitely there are no puppies in this House.  That definitely needs to be withdrawn.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House): 
TRANSLATION:  Madam Chair, I want to say that I am not directing this to anybody, but I am saying I do not want a situation that when I am talking a small dog is barking.  I am not directing these remarks to anybody in particular here.  In future also, I do not want to talk and find that there is a small dog barking.  I am not directing that to anybody.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I take your point.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Madam Chair, I rise to support my hon colleague Mr Cele.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House): [I ask for a point of order as to what I said].

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Madam Chair, I believe that the hon Mr Gwala was ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!  Order please!  I have got to make a ruling, and I would need to make an informed ruling.  Can we please let the hon member put her case, then I will either make a ruling and request the speaker to withdraw.  I need information to make the ruling.  The Chief Whip.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Madam Chair.  I said I am rising to support my hon colleague Mr Cele.  I believe that the comment made was unparliamentary, and all that we are asking of the hon Mr Gwala is that he should be gracious enough to withdraw it, and that he should treat his fellow parliamentarians with the necessary respect, not to make derogatory remarks about them.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House): [I want to ask what I said].

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  That while he is speaking the puppies are howling, in case you thought I did not know.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House): [I want to ask the Chief Whip what I said].

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the hon Minister take his seat please.  Thank you.  Can I ask the hon member to kindly withdraw.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we keep quiet so that we record what the hon member is going to say.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House): [I apologise]. 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  The hon member has withdrawn.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  It is true that certain senior police officials have an interest in the taxi industry.  What makes things worse is when such an official becomes an investigating officer, after the violence has erupted.  This kind of a situation is untenable and cannot be tolerated any longer.

Things sometimes get worse when ~Apartheid~ policies still apply in the police force, even after the 1994 general elections.  I was shocked to learn that after a clash between a taxi organisation at Empangeni and a bus company known as Greyhound, the police decided to offer services to the company to protect the white owned bus for a distance of about 400 kilometres.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member, despite the fact that I have given you injury time, you are now left with two minutes.  So I would like you to wind up.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  It is about 400 kilometres, daily, as the bus is escorted from Empangeni up to Vryheid and back.  I swear, if that bus belonged to a black owner the police would not assist him or her.  I am going to debate further about this issue in the police vote next week.

In a nutshell, Chairperson, drastic steps must be taken by the Department, together with the people, and that includes political organisations and interested parties, to sit down and resolve this issue of the taxi violence.  Our people, our families, our friends, our sisters and brothers are not safe when using taxis, as violence may spark off at any time.  You can imagine how bad it is when you see people travelling peacefully and somebody opens fire on them.

I was impressed by the statement made by the hon Minister, earlier this year, when he announced that fine dodgers face a tough time.  It is a very good idea.  Besides that, fines contribute to increase State revenue.  To receive a fine helps the driver to be a disciplined driver and in future he or she will be cautious and alert, at all times, in order to avoid a repeat of receiving a fine.  I support the Minister's notion of saying that you can run, but you cannot hide.

The Minister touched on various issues which are very important indeed.  We must understand the problem facing the Department due to the financial backlog, especially the projects such as community access roads.  I agree with the hon Mr Haripersaad of the IFP, that the National Government does not understand the situation on the ground.  We need more money in order to deliver everything the people need.

Last year the Minister gave us an estimated figure of 17 000 kilometres of community access roads in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  The Minister mentioned that to upgrade these roads to a minimum acceptable allweather standard will cost an estimated R100 million.  I have seen that a community access road constructed includes Gwala Road at Ongoye, but it is shocking that at Mahlabathini nothing happened at the Buthelezi tribal authority, as there are many access roads which are in poor condition.

We are all aware that many of these access roads are in a poor condition, and that we are faced with a financial backlog, we therefore sympathise with the Department officials because their aim in developing the standard of road conditions is hampered by the lack of funds.

Lastly, Chairperson, I wish to congratulate, once again, the hon Minister and his Department for having a charming, most attractive, obviously very able and lady-like person who gives class to an otherwise dull Ministry of S'bu Ndebele.  [LAUGHTER]  I am referring here to the Deputy Director-General in the person of Ms Jenny Gray.  I congratulate her for the secondment to the National Department of Transport.  Gender equality appears to be bearing fruit in this Department.  That is why we received a paper bag that contained a disposable alcohol breathalyser and a key ring with a message:  "Arrive Alive".

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  I agree with ~Inkosi~ Khawula that ~Amakhosi~ and Ministers should be given some things, something better than paper bags.  I thank you.  [LAUGHTER]

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now call upon the hon Minister to wrap up his debate.  Over to you, sir.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you.  Thank you, Madam Chair.  I must thank you and thank the hon members for a very fruitful debate.  I am not going to keep you long.  I must also thank the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee for the support that he has given me and for the manner in which he has run his Committee throughout the year.  It has been a team that has been built for transport.  The administration, the Ministry and the Portfolio Committee, have been able to forge a very excellent working relationship.  That does not imply that there has been a lack of debate.  There have been very, very strong debates in that Portfolio Committee, but it has all been for the purpose of building a vibrant Department of Transport.

I owe it to some of the members to respond to some issues.  Firstly, to the hon member Mrs Millin.  The driver's licence cards are an international trend today.  Through that we have facilitated the carrying of a driver's licence instead of carrying a dompas.  It becomes important to carry those cards in order for us to be able to deal with fraudulent licences and people who do not have licences at all.  That is an international trend.  It is inconceivable that the member is actually requesting that this be stopped.  I find it quite strange.

I want to assure the hon member that we did experience some difficulties when we opened the new building to the public at ~Mkondeni~.  There might have been some hitches there.  The Executive, when there are complaints from the public, we actually ensure that those complaints are addressed.  I will be happy to give you my cellular number, so that when there are those problems, because it is precisely ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  ....it is through these complaints, by the hon member, that we will be able to jack up our own administration.  If there is some laxity we are then able to address and jack up those members to bring them up to date.  We do not do that by expelling them, we actually encourage them to know that our mission here is to serve the public.  When these issues are raised they will be taken very seriously by myself, by Ms Jenny Gray or any other director in the Department.  We will not take it amiss that it is anything else.  It helps us to become more service orientated.

Coming to Mr James Waugh, the hon member.  I did say, and it does say here in the budget, that the Cabinet has allocated an amount of R100 million.  We then embarked on the road construction in eMakhaye, in the rural area and as we were halfway, almost nine months down the line we were told that the R55 million was not going to be available.  So when you see the R55 million overspent, it is still short of the R5 million.  That was clearly explained and the Cabinet and the Finance Portfolio Committee is aware of it.  That is why it is not a mistake on the part of the Department of Transport.

I do not know about the personalised number plates which we have encouraged all the members here to buy.  We are processing the Premier's right now, which contributes to building ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Ja, it is Big Ben.  [LAUGHTER]  It contributes towards the construction of roads.  We really want to encourage the members to follow suit, like Tstotsi and Raj 1 and Raj 2 have done.  In the annexure here we have reported on the roads that we have built.  I can promise that next year, perhaps, we will have a James Waugh road in the annexure as well.  [LAUGHTER]

To the hon member Mr Ngema, about the Nongoma to Pongola road next to the King's Palace.  Last year we allocated an amount of R300 000 for the design stage of the bridge over the Nkunzana River.  This bridge will be constructed this financial year, 1998/1999 at a cost.  We have allocated an amount of R1 million.  The road is being graded almost twice a month.  Unfortunately the material that we get there is not very good, but you can be assured that it is going to be safe.

To the other issues that were raised by the hon member Mr Volker.  We have a long standing debate.  We will continue when we attend the cocktail party.  [LAUGHTER]

The hon member Mr Gwala has raised certain issues about our road awareness campaign, and we thank him for those comments.  With regards to the ~Siyabakhumbula~ we will discuss that further.  The objective of ~Siyabakhumbula~ was to increase the public awareness of the carnage on our roads, and to inform the people not to return to their old customs.  Do not think of a person who has been knocked down by a car, as being just a dog.  Go and do whatever needs to be done.  It is not the Department of Transport's responsibility, it is the family of Gwala or the family of Ntombela that must do it.  But in the process, as you become aware that your next of kin that has died in a car crash, you also become part of the crusade against the road carnage.  The people must take responsibility and not leave it to the Department of Transport to slaughter cattle and so forth.  It is unheard of.  That campaign is going to continue during August, and we are going to spread to more areas, but on a smaller scale.  We are going to go to the communities and you are going to hear more about that.

Again, to get back to the hon member Mrs Millin.  Perhaps I will conclude here, I want to say that the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Transport's budget presentation, that includes the budget packs, the photographic display, T-shirts and the video were made possible, thanks to the contributions from the following sponsors:  Bradford Conning and Partners, UWP, Barlow Cats, Stanway Edwards and Associates, BP, Doug Latima, Nedbank.  Nedbank gave, for instance, the breathalyser which we will need tonight when we leave after the cocktail party so that members will be able to test themselves.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Madam Chair, will the hon Minister take just one little question?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Minister is willing to take a question.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you very much.  Thank you.  All those very worthy sponsors, could you perhaps persuade them to actually help fill some of the potholes, particularly those around the Eshowe area?  Thank you, Minister.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you.  Thank you.  Lastly, I must again thank the members for the manner in which they have conducted this debate.  I want to thank the Department.  I want to thank the members of the staff in the Ministry in Burger Street.  I want to thank them very, very much for the work that they have put into this budget debate.  It is my pleasure to ask you to follow the Premier as he will lead us to the City Hall now for light entertainment, and a cocktail party.  Something to eat and really lift our spirits.  I will ask all the members to attend.  These breathalysers will help you to not drink too much above the limit, because it would be quite embarrassing for the Witness to report tomorrow that a member of this Legislature was caught for drunken driving.  I thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!  We have now come to the end of the debate on vote 12.  I will call upon the sergeant-at-arms to raise the mace.  The business of the House will then resume.


	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED AT 19:24
	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED AT 19:24


THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The business of the House resumes.  I now call upon the Premier to make announcements, if there are any.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Madam Speaker.  I would like to congratulate the Minister of Transport for the very significant drop in fatalities over our Easter holiday.  This indicates that serious work is being done as far as reducing the road accidents, but I of course request him to create a code of conduct for these huge monsters on the road, the trucks, so that drivers have a code of conduct, because I still think they detract from the order on our roads.

I am very happy that the Chief Whip of the ANC has removed her sunglasses.  I was about to say some drivers also drive at night with their sunglasses, and that does not help.  [LAUGHTER]  I act as if I am the Minister of Health.  When you put on sunglasses inside the House with inadequate lighting, you force a dilatation of your pupils, and this causes pressure on the canal of Schlemm so that the liquid in your eye does not circulate effectively, and you may develop glaucoma, which is quite a serious condition.  [LAUGHTER]  Thank you very much.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Order.  The business of the House is adjourned, but I wish to thank all the members for the two debates on the votes, that is vote 3 and vote 12.  It was a very, very healthy discussion as the two Ministers have indicated.  Can we now adjourn until tomorrow at 14:00.  There is a request, to please go via the City Hall before you go home.  Thanks.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 19:26 UNTIL
	14:00 ON WEDNESDAY, 20 MAY 1998

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	SECOND SITTING - SIXTH SITTING DAY
	WEDNESDAY, 20 MAY 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:07 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.
THE SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

I have no announcements to make.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

No reports.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister of Education.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, may I table the Annual Report of the Department of Education and Culture, KwaZulu-Natal.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The hon Minister of Finance.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, I rise in my capacity as the Provincial Minister for Local Government.  I have pleasure in tabling the 51st annual report of the Natal Water Services Advisory Board.  This is the first document I wish to table.

And then, Mr Speaker, in the interests of members getting the report in time to prepare for the budget debate next week, I have pleasure in tabling the Annual Report of the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Local Government and Housing.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  The hon Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to, on behalf of the Public Accounts Committee, table a special report of the Auditor-General on the annual financial statements outstanding, and arrear audit reports in respect of Local Authorities in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal for 1996/1997, Report No 12 of 1998.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you. 

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I would like to give notice of the following motion:

	That this House calls on the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Ministers and the departmental heads of each department to ensure that the annual reports of their respective departments be tabled timeously at least one week before the budget debate of their vote is to take place in this House.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Yes, Mr Naicker.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Speaker, sir, I wish to give notice that at the next sitting of this House I shall move:

	Noting:

	(1)	That historically the National Party councillors in Pietermaritzburg used their power to block rates rebates from being granted to communities affected by the Group Areas Act - in particular the Indian and coloured communities - thereby subjecting these communities to an unjust iniquitous system of taxation.

	Believing:

	(2)	That the NP supported the rates rebate motion tabled by the ANC's two-thirds majority in the Pietermaritzburg TLC, as it is now expedient and prudent to do so.

	Resolve:

	(3)	That the National Party confesses to the fact that had it NOT been for the ANC's two-thirds majority the rates rebate would not have been granted and thereby the imbalances and wrongs initiated by the NP's Group Areas Act would have gone unchallenged.

Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  No further motions.  Oh, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	That in the light of the notice of motion submitted by the hon Mr Yusuf Bhamjee on rates rebates in the Midlands area, this House resolves to request the hon Mr Yusuf Bhamjee to persuade his ANC colleague Dr M O Sutcliffe to ensure that the branch in Durban grant similar rebates to coloureds and Indians in Durban also.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  So much for No 7.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

8.1	QUESTIONS


QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS APPEAR IN THE IVORY PAGES IN A SEPARATE VOLUME.
THE ANSWER GIVEN TO QUESTION NO 63 TOGETHER WITH CONSEQUENTIAL QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS HAVE BEEN EXTRACTED FROM THE DISCUSSIONS THAT FOLLOW HEREUNDER AND APPEAR IN THE VOLUME CONTAINING THE QUESTIONS. 



DISCUSSION ON QUESTIONS

THE SPEAKER:I would like to find out if the questions which are on the Order Paper have already been given to the Ministers and all people concerned?  I think that compliance with the Rules has been disposed of.  The oral questions will be attended to, and the written questions appear on the paper before the members in the House.  Yes, Mrs Cronje?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I wish to apologise for the fact that the three ANC MECs are not here.  They are all involved in the peace talks and will therefore not be able to answer the questions.

THE SPEAKER:  Well, we will come to that issue as we proceed with the questions, whereupon the hon member can apologise for the absent MECs.  Let us proceed with the questions to the Ministers.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker.  Can I, on a point of order, mention that it is normal practice that if a Minister cannot be here personally, and we accept that it is the case that they cannot be here every time, then they arrange with another person to submit the answers on their behalf.

THE SPEAKER:  That should have been the case, Mr Volker.  Apparently, according to the Whip of the ANC, this has not been done.  Questions to Ministers, a question by Mrs Galea to the Minister of Works.  Yes.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, I wonder if you could give a ruling on some confusing issues in the question paper?  Are the stand over questions for oral or written reply?

THE SPEAKER:  I would imagine that the stand over questions are for oral reply.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Well, the reason why we pose the question, sir, is that it is not clear from the question paper as to whether they are for oral or written reply.

THE SPEAKER:  May I ask the Chief Whip please.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I wonder, sir, whether we could not resolve a number of problems relating to the question paper today.  As Mrs Cronje said, some of the Ministers from the ANC, and you will notice as well, some of the Ministers from the IFP are involved in a series of peace talks.  I think in all honesty they expected to be finished by now, and they expected to be here themselves.  I do take note of Mr Volker's point, that they could have perhaps got someone else to answer the questions.  But, Mr Speaker, with today's question paper, the standing over questions, to reply to Minister Miller, I think they were intended to be for oral reply.

Then you will also notice there are a number of questions to Ministers on page 21 for oral reply.  But, Mr Speaker, the situation as it is today, I would request that all the questions, except for question 8, where the Minister of Education and Culture is present, all the questions, except for question No 38 sorry, on page 20, should stand over until next week.

THE SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, whilst I have no disagreement with the hon the Chief Whip, if he is asking for questions 31, 61 and 62 to stand over, since those Ministers are not present, question 38 addressed to the Minister of Education and Culture stood over as a written question and has been submitted for well over a month and a half now.  That is why it has come up as a question for oral reply now.

Question 63 to the Minister of Finance is an oral question which clearly complies with the requirements in the Rule book.  I would request that question 38 and 63 be replied to.

THE SPEAKER:  Mr Volker please.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I would also like to respond to the proposal by the hon the Chief Whip.  There is something drastically wrong with the handling of questions in this House.  Whether it is administrative problems, or whether it is a plain disregard by the Executive for the responsibility in answering questions, I do not know.  I would propose that those questions that stand over today, or that stand over this week be handled on tomorrow's Order Paper, and not stand over till next Wednesday.  As it is, question time is restricted and if we leave it till next week and there are other questions to be handled, then they might fall by the wayside because of the restricted time.  I believe it is high time that the administration and the Ministers took question time in this House seriously.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mrs Ina Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I think today is a very unfortunate day for Mr Volker to choose to make those comments.  I certainly know that I can speak on behalf of the hon Ministers Zuma, Ndebele and Mkhize, when I say that they had every intention of being here, they had every intention of answering the questions, because I personally had discussed it with them.  I therefore must object to the words expressed by Mr Volker in the particular circumstances.  I reiterate the apology that I did give to this House earlier and I am sure that from the side of the ANC, whether they stand over until tomorrow or until next Wednesday would not make a difference because, as I say, certainly my Ministers had every intention of answering their questions.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  The hon Minister of Finance.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Sir, I rise on two issues.  The first one is that in regard to questions 31 and 38, although we have been informed by the hon Chief Whip and others that they are in fact for oral reply, I also share with the House the information from the staff of the Secretary to Parliament, to the effect that those two questions standing there, it was never specified as to whether they should be for written or oral reply.  That is just for the record.

Sir, I am in a position to answer question No 63, the only one that apparently is able to be handled in this session.  May I do so?

THE SPEAKER:  As your hon pleases

THE ANSWER TO QUESTION 63 APPEARS IN THE IVORY PAGES IN A SEPARATE VOLUME.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, before I resume my seat, I would just like to point out that question No 55, which is for written reply, is recorded in the question paper as being a question posed to the Minister of Education.  That essentially is correct, save for the fact that precisely the same question was posed to me in my capacity as Minister of Finance.  I just want to record that a written reply has been provided by the Ministry of Finance, not by the Ministry of Education, my colleague, but that we share the same answer so that the job in fact has been done by the Ministry of Finance.  Thank you, sir.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker.

THE SPEAKER:  I will give Mr Nel time before Mr Burrows.

THE CONSEQUENTIAL QUESTION POSED BY MR NEL AND THE ANSWER APPEARS IN THE IVORY PAGES IN A SEPARATE VOLUME.

THE SPEAKER:  There we are.  The hon Mr Burrows please.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, if I may rise in connection with the Minister's point concerning the standing over questions, because I think we do need to resolve it.  A question stands over, and there is only one case, if a written question is not answered within 10 days.  It then can become at the next sitting day an oral question.  That Rule has been applied to these two.  As I understand from Mrs Galea and myself, these have been standing over for a month without reply.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, can I ask a question?  What happens if we do not get that oral reply and we keep on deferring it?  We should amend the Rule to detain a Minister in this building until the answer is given.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  I shall amend the Rules.  The hon member Mr Edwards.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Edwards, sir.  Mr Speaker, I yesterday received a draft of the questions that were to be here today, and standing over questions were No 10 by Mrs Galea to the Minister of Safety and Security and No 19 from myself to the Minister of Education and Culture, have mysteriously disappeared from the Order Paper today.  I believe they should have been included as questions for reply, because I do not believe we have had replies to those particular questions.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Well, perhaps it was the Minister of Finance, I think, who was going to follow up with a reply.  However, if the Minister of Education desires to raise a question.  As your hon pleases.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Mr Speaker, I will respond in as far as question 19 is concerned.  The question has been replied to and has been sent to the office of the Secretary.  Perhaps it has not been sent to Mr Edwards.  I am sure he will receive it.

Regarding question No 38.  The whole question of the financial arrangements for Dr Shabalala was dealt with by the office of the DG, under the office of the Premier.  The question was referred to that Department and I am sure they are still working on the details.  What I do know is that some arrangement was brought to Cabinet and was approved by Cabinet.  We will get the details from the DG's office.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Burrows again.  

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, if I may just, further to the Minister's reply to question 38, indicate that when the question was originally posed some six weeks ago it was addressed to the hon the Premier.  I was contacted by the question section of the Secretary of the Legislature, to be told that it should be readdressed to the Minister for Education and Culture.  The Minister of Education and Culture is now saying that it is being answered by the DG in the Premier's office.  It seems to me that somewhere between the Legislature and the Executive we have got to sort this question out.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The Minister of Finance.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Finance and Local Government):  Mr Speaker, besides the fact that we have had today in this question time a lot of question and answer on procedural issues, and whether questions were oral or written, and to deal with questions that have not been answered before, I do again just wish to repeat something I have said in this House once before.  That had all been in order, the hours set aside for questions this afternoon would have been completed in two minutes, and that in fact the insistence of members always posing their questions for written reply in fact demeans, in my view, the value of the hour we set aside for questions.  I again, particularly in regard to my departments, humbly ask members that they give Ministers the opportunity to reply orally, because we then get answers and we are able to answer follow up questions, and we get value out of question time.  Thank you.

THE SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, I appreciate what Mr Miller has said, and I agree with him.  The cause of the problem is the irregular and totally ad hoc arrangements for the sittings of this House.  Until we arrange regular sittings once a month for at least one week, that we know that when we submit questions they will be dealt with within a reasonable time, and not just on an ad hoc basis some time in the future.  It makes it thoroughly impossible to deal with it on the normal basis if the sittings of this House are arranged on such an ad hoc basis.

THE SPEAKER:  I would like to point out that the question of the Order Paper is compiled by the Whips.  They are the people who decide on the order of and whether the questions are added or not, to reply to Mr Volker's question.  I see the Whip of the ANC has something to defend herself with.  Please come up, Madam.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I am quite happy to take the blame for things that I should be doing, but really and truly the questions, the procedure between the House and the various departments has absolutely nothing to do with the Whips.  We do not organise it, we do not come anywhere near the question paper.  So not guilty.  [LAUGHTER]

THE SPEAKER:  Well, I think we have spent a bit of time on that issue today.  What is now left are the questions for written reply.  There is not one for oral reply.  In terms of the Order Paper I suppose we could probably proceed on to 8.2 now, seeing that the other Ministers are not available at this moment.  We can now proceed to 8.2.  Oh, have the Ministers have just turned up.  In fact 8.2 is the Committee of Supply whereupon the House will convert to the Committee of Supply which will proceed with its work.  I will now leave the chair.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE.
MR G HAYGARTH THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES TAKES THE CHAIR.

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1998.

VOTE 5:  DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Committee of Supply continues.  It now gives me great pleasure to call on the hon the Minister of Education to address the Committee of Supply.  Mr Minister?


DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture): 
TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, hon members of the Provincial Parliament of KwaZulu-Natal, it is a privilege for me to present my Budget for the financial year 1998/1999, for your kind information.

1.	INTRODUCTION

By way of introduction, I wish to give members an insight into aspects of transformation which have taken place during the course of 1997 and early 1998, and to indicate obstacles and constraints that we have faced and will continue to face as we address our task of reaching equity, through redress where necessary, and improving quality within our system.

1.1	RECONSTRUCTION OF THE EDUCATION AND CULTURE SERVICE IN THE PROVINCE

1.1.1  PORTFOLIO

In addition to the provision of education in schools, colleges of education, technical colleges and in adult centres, my portfolio encompasses the rendering of cultural services to the people of KwaZulu-Natal, including responsibility for the development and articulation of out-of school sport and culture, museum services, monuments, public and institutional libraries and language and archival services.

The structuring, organisation and management of this portfolio has been an extremely complex task which was stalled, initially, through the reaction of the former Provincial Service Commission and latterly, through financial constraints which have halted appointments, training and supply of equipment.

1.1.2	ORGANISATIONAL STRUCTURE AND ESTABLISHMENT

In line with Provincial decisions to reduce expenditure on personnel, the organisational structure and establishment of the Department of Education and Culture has remained incomplete.  Certain critical appointments in the management cadre have been made and these include the following at Head Office:

The following persons were employed at Head Office:

Dr M A M Jarvis		:	Secretary for Education
Mr L T Mbatha		:	Director: Education Programmes
Dr G B J Ndlela		:	Director: Sport and Recreation
Mr H Ntshangase		:	Director: Arts and Culture
Dr H P Gumede		:	Director: Psychological, Guidance and Special Education 
Miss S Nzimande		:	Director: Educational Libraries
Mr P Z M Msibi		:	Director: Communication, Public Relations and Language Services
Mr J Coetzer		:	Director: Physical Planning

We were able to proceed with the development of the Province by employing directors, and providing for auxiliary services, together with administration in many districts.  It would be commendable to mention that 63,6% of people in managerial positions are Black, they are African, but the success rate as far as the gender issue is concerned, is small.  There are only 9,1% of women in managerial positions.

The Department is concerned, we are in the middle of studying an investigation on the equality of gender in order to better the situation.  It must be said that people that were already in the employ of the Department, who were women, refused managerial positions at ~Ulundi~.  Management is in a critical situation, in spite of the fact that the right sizing programme has been done, people had to move to the different districts.
  
A programme of voluntary retrenchments and also the transfer of officials to other departments and resignations has made it difficult to reach the desired work levels.  The Investigation Task Team which includes expert consultants, has reviewed the capability of each individual district in performing their tasks and whether or not certain tasks could be better done at Head Office.

The Ministerial Financial Committee recommended that the Internal Audit Division, together with the Accounting Division should be fortified.  This request is one of the things which was being investigated by the Investigation Team.  It has been stated in the media that there are more civil servants than necessary.  I want to deny that as pertains this Department, that there are too many employees.
  
The figures of the National Department of Education show that money that is invested on each individual scholar, that is taking an average of all the Departments of Education, is R227.00.  That is in South Africa as a whole.  But when one looks specifically at KwaZulu-Natal, the figure is R88.00.  That is for each child.

That is less than any other Department of Education.  If one takes into account the money that is spent to employ people within the Department, not including teachers, the average here in South Africa would be R227.00.  But here in the Department in KwaZulu-Natal, it is R88.00.

1.2	PERSONNEL

1.2.1	REDUCTION OF CS EDUCATOR CADRE

In terms of an agreement with the Department of Finance and in terms of a Cabinet resolution, the Department has had to proceed to reduce its CS Educator numbers.  An interim plan was established, in which contracts of temporary educators employed from 1 July 1996 would expire at the end of March 1998.  Some of these educators would be re-employed to allow schools to work on a guideline of 35 learners to an educator in secondary schools and 40 to one in primary schools.  Currently, a saving of 2,863 posts has been achieved.  Approved norms still need to be established in the provincial Chamber of the Education Labour Relations Council.

1.3	EXAMINATIONS

It is with a great sense of pleasure and relief that I report on the Senior Certificate Examination of 1997.  Elaborate planning and extremely strict control led to the elimination of the leakages and other forms of corruption which had affected the examination in 1996.  My thanks go to the officials and educators who made significant contributions to the smooth running of the examination.  Although the overall pass rate of 54% was disappointing, it has given us a true sense of the levels of attainment and we must work on improvements.  In comparison with other provinces, our pass rate was the third highest, but as our funding per learner is the eighth lowest, we did achieve the most cost-effective output of passes in the country.

This report was written prior to us receiving the report which comes from the Department of National Education, which we have just received, which now places the Province of KwaZulu-Natal in the last place, after all the provinces, when it comes to financial allocation of provinces in South Africa. 

KwaZulu-Natal is now in last place if one calculates the budget allocation per child in South Africa.  This, in spite of the fact that KwaZulu-Natal has the highest number of scholars of any other Education Department here in South Africa.  T/E  

Chairman, maybe I need to stress that, because it is not down there in the report that I have given to the hon members.  What I was reading there, I was saying that we were No 8 in terms of allocation per capita in South Africa, but according to the latest report that we have received from the Department of Education, we are the last in terms of per capita spending of all the provinces in South Africa.

AN HON MEMBER:  Shocking.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  

TRANSLATION:  

1.4	TRANSFORMATION

The need for visible, qualitative and quantitive change through the transformation of management systems, educational programmes, skills training, cultural and sporting requirements, as well as material conditions in schools and other institutions, remains a prerogative of my Department.
  
An elaborate and complex strategic plan has shown change in the regions, and the success of the regions and districts is imperative.  The responsibility for policy implementation lies at these levels.  Financial powers have been delegated to regions and the need to meet imperatives of redress and equity lies at this level as well.  Teacher development for the new curriculum has been taking place, but the advisory service capacity of a number of the regions has been limited.  The appointment this year of a Director: Education Programmes will be beneficial to the success of the implementation process leading to curriculum transformation.

An intensive programme has resulted in Governing Bodies being elected in public schools.  The School Government Body Training Unit has been training members of Governing Bodies in financial management.  The policy to empower school communities to make decisions on greater areas of responsibility and to give them a collective sense of ownership, is being implemented.

Regulations have been promulgated to enable statutory bodies of Regional Councils and an Educational Council to be formed.  It is hoped that these bodies will play a significant role in the development of education in this Province, and that the voice of the mainstream of the people will be heard, instead of the selective groups that are extremely vocal in their demands for the preservation of privilege.  The Department has tried to re-focus itself in terms of a changed mission statement, and hopes that stakeholders in the Education Council will assist in formulating a generally acceptable mission statement.

The mission statement is:

Our mission is to improve the learning environment through the development of an effective education system, which promotes professional expertise and administrative competence, and which through redress brings about equity in educational provision.  

This will be done by

	*	addressing transformational issues of redress and equity as espoused in the Constitution;

	*	Promoting the Culture of Learning, Teaching and Service;
	*	Promoting Education for Peace, Human Rights and Democracy;
	*	Committing ourselves to the concept of ~Ubuntu~ with emphasis on caring and integrity;
	*	Promoting sound management as expressed in Batho Pele, Good Governance and Education Management Development programmes;
	*	Providing learners with relevant quality education which will equip them with skills to meet the challenges and demands they encounter;
	*	Assessing and evaluating the provision of education with a view to constant revision; and,
	*	Giving due consideration to the needs of learners, educators, parents, community and the workplace.

Due consideration has been given to the Draft School Funding Norms and Standards which will be the basis of National regulations, and attempts have been made to allocate certain funding towards the poorest 40% of our communities.

I should like to express my gratitude to the foreign donor agencies and local funders which have supported us, or will be supporting us this year.  These include the Government of the Netherlands, DANAID, USAID, World Bank, National Business Initiative and the KwaZulu-Natal Education Development Trust (comprised initially of Billiton, Denel, Zenex and Transnet).  Parastatals and local business have also given significant assistance.  This is not an inclusive list, but does indicate that the Department is using alternative forms of funding given the constraints on its budgetary allocation.  T/E

A trust has been established with these organisations to help the Department in meeting the financial constraints that the Department is facing at the moment.


TRANSLATION:  Organisations that support the Government, together with businessmen from the area, gave very important assistance.  This is not an exhaustive list, but it shows that the Department uses other ways and means to increase the money at its disposal when it encounters problems in its budget as the budget allocated is a small one as we will see, as we near the end.

1.5	SOCIAL UNREST

This year has witnessed unrest in certain schools and attempts at social anarchy, in that the democratically-elected government is being challenged as it attempts to meet its goals of equity and redress.  Certain schools, particularly those from the former House of Delegates in Durban, have experienced turbulence and illegal closure through actions of educators, parents and, in some cases, learners themselves.  A Task Team was formed by the Cabinet to consider issues of disquiet and to formulate requests; then a smaller group, including the Superintendent-General, was given the task of formulating responses to the requests which had been made.  Financial realities were made apparent to this group.

Demonstrations outside the International Conference Centre, while the Ministers of Education in Africa Conference was taking place, actually backfired on the demonstrators as the Ministers noted that the retention of privilege was unacceptable in any African country.

1.6	EDUCATION AND CULTURE STOPS FRAUD AND CORRUPTION

1.6.1	The Internal Audit component is an important arm of the department which assists in seeing that adequate internal controls are in place in order to eradicate fraud and corruption.

1.6.2	Even though the component is still critically short staffed, it has made significant progress in identifying cases of fraud and corruption.

1.6.2.1	The component embarked on a strategy to investigate false certificates submitted by C.S. Educators.  Over 100 certificates have already been confirmed to be fake.  17 C.S. Educators have already been charged criminally.  Some of them will be appearing in court before the end of May 1998.  The undue salary paid in recognition of fake certificates in respect of the above 17 C.S. Educators alone has been calculated and it amounts to R720 225,22.  These undue salaries will be recovered from the educators concerned.  Statements are still being prepared in order to lay criminal charges in respect of the remaining cases.  The internal audit investigating team will be visiting all regions to root out this corruption which is costing the Department millions of Rands.


1.6.2.2	Corruption on bursary payments was uncovered during the year.  An amount of R675 000 was recovered in full from the college concerned.

1.6.2.3	Fraud involving supply of goods and services where amounts payable were inflated and cheques diverted to wrong addresses and deposited into account names of other than those written on cheques was uncovered.  The total amount involved is R552 077.  A civil claim is being pursued against the bank which accepted these cheques as they were all endorsed "NOT TRANSFERABLE".  The above amount will most likely be recovered from the bank concerned.  The above cases have been reported to the police for further investigation.

1.6.2.4	Home owner allowance fraud amounting to ± R1 761 786 has been identified and the investigation is proceeding.  The undue payment will be recovered from the recipients while those responsible for this fraud will be facing charges in criminal courts.

Mr Speaker, I feel good about reading this report of my Department, and reading it in Zulu, taking into account the fact that it is Africa week this week.  I am also quite happy because I have presented my report in all the languages, including Afrikaans, Zulu and English.  So members of Parliament can read whichever one they choose as I am speaking.  I am now changing, because I feel like changing now.  T/E

AN HON MEMBER:  Shintsha guluva.

DR V T ZULU: [I am now going to read in English from paragraph 2].

2.0	BUDGETARY PROVISION

2.1	1998/99 FINANCIAL YEAR

Chairman, I shall now discuss the financial provisions for my Department of Education and Culture.  The provisions have been made in accordance with the budget structure for the Province which encompasses 10 programmes, as approved by the Provincial Treasury.

The structure clearly reflects the objectives of my Department, allowing for efficient management in deciding the most economic means of achieving educational objectives.

To enable my Department to begin addressing backlogs in facilities and services, to introduce Curriculum 2005 and to fund the existing and vacant posts critical to the improved functioning of the Department, an amount of R9 487 498 000 was requested.  The amount allocated for 1998/1999 is R6,869 billion, and based on the projection for the current financial year, represents a reduction of R334 million from last year's budget.

The financial dilemma facing the Province can be appreciated, but it must be reiterated that a limited budget will have dire consequences for my Department.  Last year, I read in my budget, that the budget that we received was going to cause a lot of social upheavals.  This year I am saying the financial dilemma facing the Province can be appreciated, but it must be reiterated that a limited budget will have dire consequences for my Department.  The lack of funds will also necessitate increased parental contributions to maintain services.  My Department will try to gain the support of all role-players, inclusive of Teacher Unions, Governing Bodies and parents in order to address the critical needs of education, because big budget or no big budget, education must go on.

In order to conform to the amount provided for 1998/1999, reductions have been applied to various programmes, which in turn have resulted in allocations to certain supplies and services which are not sufficiently adequate to meet existing demands.

Assistance to schools in the form of stationery, text books, furniture and equipment has been severely curtailed, and services such as security and cleaning will be very limited.

It is interesting to note that non-personnel expenditure for 1995/1996 was R1,098 million or 18,9% of expenditure.  In 1997/1998 it was R734 million, 10% of expenditure, whereas in 1998/1999 an amount of R500 million is allocated, which is a mere 7,3% of the budget.

It is my intention to look specifically at the imbalances of the past and to introduce measures that bring about equality and transformation in education.  The insufficient funds allocated will not only create hardships in many areas, but will also have a negative effect on the thrust towards equity of my Department.

It is imperative that the question of additional funding be urgently addressed to enable my Department to deliver the standard of education that is desired.  Differential funding of provinces should cease forthwith.  It is morally unacceptable for our per capita funding per learner to be R2 516, for the national average to be R2 923 and for the Western Cape to be R4 150, (according to the latest statistics of the Department of National Education).

2.2	ALLOCATION ACCORDING TO PROGRAMMES:

PROGRAMME 1: ADMINISTRATION

An amount of R117,819 million is provided under this programme which presently accommodates the Head Office echelon of the Department, together with personnel attached to the Education Works component.  Service delivery has been severely hampered by the fact that a number of senior posts are still vacant and with a restrictive budget only a limited number of critical posts could be filled.  This will continue to place an administrative burden on existing personnel and this should not be allowed to continue indefinitely.

PROGRAMME 2: PUBLIC ORDINARY SCHOOL EDUCATION

The amount provided is R6 087 655 000 for the provision of education and instruction of pupils in public pre-primary, primary and secondary schools.  R5 777 340 000 of the amount allocated constitutes personnel expenditure.  It is essential to restrict the number of educators who can be employed.

Assistance to schools in the form of stationery, textbooks, furniture and equipment will be severely curtailed.  It will only be possible to assist pupils in Grade 1 and new schools.  Parents will be expected to pay considerably more to finance services previously provided by the Department.

Efforts to begin addressing the backlogs will be severely hampered.  Services such as security and cleaning will be very limited and problems are anticipated in this regard.  Domestic services will be subsidised and schools will be required to finance the shortfalls.  Further moves towards allocating funding to the poorest 40% of communities will take place.

PROGRAMME 3: PRIVATE ORDINARY SCHOOL EDUCATION

An amount of R27,525 million is provided for the payment of subsidies in respect of private ordinary school education.

Subsidies to private schools were previously based on a formula provided by the Department of National Education.  A 50% subsidy calculated on the cost of educating a child in a public school using the national average which was previously used has been applied.  With effect from the 1998/1999 financial year, provincial eduction departments are entitled to determine their own criteria and base their subsidies on educating a child in a public school within the Province.  The cost of educating a child in the Province is less than the national average, and as such the amount allocated to private schools has been reduced.

PROGRAMME 4: SPECIAL SCHOOL EDUCATION

An amount of R145 377 million is allocated for the administration of special school education.

Due to limited funding, it will not be possible to expand the service provided to special schools and pupils with special education needs (LSEN).  The number of such schools in a normal school population varies from 5% to 10%.  This Department is at present providing specialised education for less than 0,3% of its learners.  There are thousands of, for example, severely mentally handicapped learners sitting drooling in classrooms or at home.  In most cases there is no support for their teachers who are untrained and unable, largely due to class sizes, to do more for these learners than provide sporadic, rudimentary child care.  While most specialised schools may be able to manage with the amounts allocated to them, this will generally not be without sacrificing the quality of service provided.  It will also not be possible to address past imbalances nor to extend this service to ordinary public schools.

PROGRAMME 5: TEACHER TRAINING

An amount of R180 927 000 is provided for the administration and management of 16 teacher training colleges, including two distance colleges.

In view of the strategy of reducing the number of teachers at schools, the intake of students at Colleges of Education has been curtailed.  My Department has begun the process of not enroling first year students at certain colleges with the view to closing and amalgamating colleges.  The concept of colleges becoming partially self-sufficient is being explored.  Certain Colleges of Education will be classified as Higher Education Institutions and will be controlled by the National Department of Education.

PROGRAMME 6: TECHNICAL COLLEGE EDUCATION

An amount of R109 155 000 is provided for the administration and management of technical colleges.  This is a sector with an average student growth of 10% per annum.  With a limited budget, institutions will have to restrict intake and courses will be controlled to prevent and limit duplication.  The budget makes no provision for new institutions to be established.  Technical education provides training that is directly prescribed by Industry Training Boards and requires regular updating of equipment and syllabi.  Courses normally run over a period of three years, and therefore the need to maintain the momentum of change, competitiveness and relevance of Technical Vocational Education for students throughout their training period is non-negotiable.  It is proposed that private Technical Colleges will be registered to relieve pressure on the State system.

PROGRAMME 7: NON-FORMAL EDUCATION

An amount of R24 003 000 is allocated for the provision of Adult Basic Education.

A reduced budget will necessitate the reduction in the number of ABET and more effective control will be exercised.  Although this programme provides a very important service to the communities, it will have to be curtailed to conform to available funding.

PROGRAMME 8: SPORT AND RECREATION

An amount of R6 438 000 is provided for the promotion of in-school and out-of-school sport and recreational activities.

The aim of this programme is to make sport and recreation one of the pillars of GEAR.  It is intended to set up sport committees in all communities and to train community sports leaders in all aspects of administration, including fund-raising.  Setting up sport and recreation structures in all communities will help people lead a healthier life by providing them opportunities to spend their leisure time constructively.  As a result of a reduced budget, this Department is finding it increasingly difficult to provide the services described.

PROGRAMME 9: ARTS AND CULTURE

An amount of R10 692 000 is provided from the Budget for Arts and Culture.

The aim of this programme is to promote and develop a tolerant, democratic, and multicultural society with its many languages, different religions and various cultural traditions and practices.  A democratic arts policy will not succeed if it is not adequately financed.  Given the vast needs and the financial constraints within which the Department has to operate, it will be imperative that all the available resources are utilised effectively.  Grants normally paid towards cultural festivals and school cultural projects will be severely curtailed.

PROGRAMME 10: AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVICES

An amount of R159 023 000 is allocated to this programme which is made up of a number of sub-programmes as follows:

*	Library Services
*	Museum Services
*	Archives
*	Examinations
*	Subject Advisory Services
*	Planning Services
*	Human Resource Development
*	Transport

Due to financial constraints, it will not be possible to extend the limited services which are currently provided.  A considerable number of posts are currently vacant in respect of these programmes, and the service delivery provided to schools is being severely hampered.  In addition, it has become apparent that there is a need for the development of many of the staff in the employ of the Department, in terms of the Good Governance and other transformational programmes.  Without additional funding it is feared that there will be a deterioration in the quality of service which this Department is expected to provide.

2.3	ALLOCATION ACCORDING TO STANDARD ITEMS

The breakdown of the allocated amount of R6,869 billion according to standard items, is as follows:

Personnel Expenditure:	R6 266 000 000

This item, which includes salaries, service bonuses, home owner allowances, medical allowances, leave gratuities, and other salary related items, accounts for the major part of the Department's estimated expenditure, namely 91,2%.  Other costs such as Regional Services Levies and civil pensions stabilisation account will increase the amount spent on personnel to 92,75% of the budget, which is roughly 93%.

Administrative Expenditure:	R96 243 000

The major items included under this heading are Regional Services Levies, subsistence, transport, communication and postage.

Stores and Livestock:	R118 726 000

Items such as stationery, printing, library books, textbooks, prescribed books, consumable stores and provisions are included under this heading.

Equipment:	R46 158 000

Under this heading provision is made for expenditure on items such as the purchase of official and subsidised vehicles, curriculum, computer, audio-visual equipment, as well as office and domestic furniture and/or the hiring of equipment.

Land and Buildings:	R36 224 000

As a result of limited funding, it has only been possible to allocate R36 224 000 to the Department of Works for the construction, maintenance and hire of buildings.  The amount required to begin addressing the needs of this Department amounted to R446 674 000.  The minimum figure identified by the Department of Works to attend to contractual obligations and other urgent and essential services amounted to R94 163 000.  Governing bodies may be required to take responsibility for certain services which the Department is not able to fund.

Professional and Special Services:	R140 497 000

Under this heading provision is made for expenditure on domestic services, catering, legal, security, cleaning and gardening services.

Transfer Payments:	R77 464 000

Under this heading provision is made for the payment of grants-in-aid to various organisations such as the Monument's Council, Museums Associations and subsidies to local authority libraries, private schools, special schools, etcetera.

Miscellaneous Expenditure:	R87 302 000

Expenditure in respect of bank charges, claims against the State and Civil Pension's Stabilisation Account is provided for under this heading.  

What is noticeable here, Mr Chairman, is that I am saying under all these headings this money will not be able to provide all the necessary services.  Under each and every heading, invariably, the money is not adequate for the designated services.

Mr Chairman, I now propose that the sum of R6 869 000 000, being the budget for my Department for the 1998/1999 financial year be approved and be discussed by this hon House.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, the hon the Minister.  I now call on the hon Portfolio Committee Chair, the hon R M Burrows to address the Committee of Supply for 10 minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Chairperson, on behalf of the Portfolio Committee, we would wish to thank and congratulate the Minister on his budget speech today.  We also wish to extend our congratulations to all the educators, learners and parents of this Province who, during very difficult times, have kept their schools running and have done the very best that they can do within the school system.  We also extend our congratulations to the new management structures and individuals within the Department.

Mr Chairperson, the past year has been anything but easy for education in KwaZulu-Natal.  It was fraught with difficulties induced by the presentation to this Legislature, one year ago of an Education vote which was quite clearly not able to meet the Department's annual expenditure, without most seriously damaging schooling.  Both the Minister and I referred to that fact during our speeches last year.

I want to refer to several events which the Portfolio Committee wrestled with during the course of the last financial year, before I refer to the present budget.

The Committee met on 12 occasions during the last financial year.  Unfortunately the Minister was only able to make himself available once.  The Education Portfolio Committee also met twice with the Finance Portfolio Committee.

One of the most unsatisfactory aspects of the entire year for the Committee was the manner in which the Department appeared unable to absolutely accurately determine its labour force in detail.  The overall figures supplied to us ranged between 91 000 and 107 000, and between 75 000 and 82 000 of those being educators.  The Committee has been informed that the absolutely final, guaranteed, 100% certain figure will be supplied to us when the consultants have completed their work in a few weeks time.  I notice that the Annual Report does not contain the number of educators or learners in this Province.

The year was dominated, last year that is, by the effects of the Budget provision voted in this House in May.  Within one month of that it was apparent to the Portfolio Committee that the Department was heading towards the most significant overspend.  Since all meetings are attended by all, or nearly all of the parties in this House, and are held in public, no one, least of all the members of this House should claim that they were not aware that the Education Department was heading towards an overspend of at least R800 million as early as July of last year.  The final overspend was some R780 million.

At the end of April 1997, the Department granted the Voluntary Severance Package to over 3 700 educators.  By the end of the year some 4 200 had been released.  It has never been satisfactorily explained to the Committee why 1 200 more than the original figure cited to us, that is 3 000, were granted VSP, nor why most, if not all, of the posts then vacated were filled by temporary appointments.  We were simply never told.  The budgeted sum for this item of R95 million was overspent by R208 million.

During the course of the past year, the Department produced a number of suggested management plans for the reduction of the projected budgetary overspend.  On several occasions, such as the termination of cleaner contracts, the termination of temporary teachers, the Premier and/or the full Cabinet became involved and extensions to services were provided for at the cost of many millions of Rands to the departmental budget.

Further complicating the matter was the necessity of involving five teacher unions or organisations, and a number of public service unions in protracted negotiations in order to reduce personnel.  The House needs to be aware, sir, that simple solutions, such as those offered through the media at times, often conflict with either the Constitution or the Labour Relations Act or the Educator Labour Relations Act or the South African Schools Act, or all four, and simply cannot be implemented.

The duty of the Portfolio Committee is to transmit warning signals regarding the departmental budget and whether it was being complied with.  The Department did deliver to the Portfolio Committee a cash flow statement, item by item through all 10 programmes at each meeting of the Committee during the past year.

I turn now to the current budget.  The current budget is a severely restrictive one.  The effect of the departmental 1998/1999 Management Plan has been considered by the Portfolio Committee.  It involves fundamental restrictions in spending in all areas, with the exception of personnel where the Department was obliged by the National Treasury to fully provide for all posts employed as at November 1997, with the exception of cutting a number of temporary teachers.  If I may quote the words from the document presented to the joint committees of Education and Finance on this:

	Personnel projection is based on the reduction of temporary educators and allowing for some replacement in terms of interim norms.

The Portfolio Committee has not been informed what the final figure, budgetarily assessed, should be for the termination of staff this year.

I was, sir, yesterday given the draft figures for the April 1998 expenditure of this Department.  Personnel expenditure for that month is at R584 million and the total for the Department for April is R644 million, both well within the budgeted cash flow figures.  What now remains is to ensure that during the course of the year the Department abides completely with its undertaking to remain within budget.

Let me state explicitly, that this will mean that every member in this House, will be expected not to call on the Department for additional funding for anything, textbooks, stationery, transport, cleaning, staff, whatever, unless that person can show where the Department must cut within its own budget.  The budget has to be complied with.

One of the major concerns of the Portfolio Committee during the year has been the appalling nature of miscommunication between stakeholders in education.  So far during the past calendar year, chronologically, we have had at least three occasions on which certain schools were either totally closed, beginning of this year for nearly three weeks, or partially closed now for nearly four weeks, or disrupted.  It has to be pointed out that the Minister and the Department have either not reacted timeously to the causes of these disturbances, or have taken considerable time to address them.  It is extremely unfortunate, sir, that if the Department has a good case, and it does have a good case in many of these, then it is not being transmitted to the written or the electronic media rapidly.  Parents, especially, appear to have been neglected in this cycle.

The current situation reported by the Department to the Portfolio Committee on 13 May 1998 is that some 34 schools out of 5 500 are closing early, whilst in these and in others the workload of temporary teachers, terminated temporary teachers, has not been taken up by SADTU members, nor revised timetables created, in accordance with a SADTU decision.  Certain schools, as a result of having temporary teachers cut, have lost specialist teachers in subjects where in which other current teachers cannot take up that class.  This is especially critical in Grade 12, that is Std 10 or matric, where the shortage of teachers in computer studies, business economics, technical subjects have meant that some matric classes are just sitting now without  teachers.  This is unacceptable and specialists will have to be appointed, but this has to occur within the budgetary constraints.  So if you are going to appoint specialists where else is the Department going to cut.  That has to be indicated.

Sir, we also have to note that this Department has to act within the considerable number of national directives which flow from the Minister of National Education.  These include, and I will list some of them most recently:

1.	The instruction that the Provincial Minister has to create his educator workforce in accordance with the budget voted.  Not the other way around, sir.  We do not create a budget according to how many teachers we have got.  Once we have had the budget voted then we go back and say how many teachers can we employ.  This was to occur once the Province has determined how much of the budget should be expended on educator personnel.  Given the suggested guideline from Professor Bhengu of 80% of the budget should go on educators, and the present expenditure is some 93% on all personnel, then a cut of some 13% in educators is what is being suggested.  Since this amounts to over 10 400 posts I would have imagined that a furious and very justified reaction is likely to result if this Minister does what Professor Bengu says he has got to do.  We are in an impossible situation.

2.	In the same Government Gazette are the regulations for the redeployment of personnel in accordance with provincially agreed norms.  These too are of major consequence with extremely far-reaching consequences for educators, including listing on a national interprovincial redeployment list. 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon speaker has one minute.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you.

	Educators, and I hope the union members are listening, educators who are classified as being in excess do not automatically acquire the right to be declared redundant.  They will simply have their services terminated unless they take up a vacancy.

3.	There is a new Green Paper on Further Education and Training making new financial suggestions regarding Grades 10, 11 and 12, Std 8, 9 and 10.

4.	A new Ministerial Guideline for a Code of Conduct for Learners was gazetted last Friday.  It says that, "Every learner has the right to  have a clean and safe environment, security of property, well cared for school facilities, school furniture and equipment, clean toilet facilities, water and a green environment".  Presumably that right has to be financially provided for by somebody.

Finally, sir, the task of the Portfolio Committee is to oversee the Ministerial portfolio.  We have attempted to do this, partly successfully.  Greater insistence from the Committee on full information, policies and spending, together with full reporting on the Departmental spending to the Finance Portfolio Committee will take place.  However, we are not the Executive or Executive functionaries.  Final responsibility for the difficult state of the Department must rest with the Minister, the Secretary, the officials and staff of the Department.  Thank you, Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, the hon Mr Burrows.  The next speaker on the list is the hon member Cyril Xaba for 18 minutes.

MR V C XABA: TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, thank you to all the members of the Portfolio Committee on Education.  I thank the Minister of Education for the speech which he has laid before us.  I do not want to forget, Mr Chairman, to mention the help that we receive from the education officials when we do our work.

Mr Chairman, I want to say, and I want to put forward a few words and say that the problems which we found ourselves facing now in Education, are problems which started over 40 years ago, Mr Chairman.  Those who are the cause of the problems that we are now facing in Education know who they are.  We have not managed to get out of those problems, we are still facing them.  What we are doing at present is to find a solution to get us out of the problems which ~Apartheid~ gave to us.

The problems that we are facing in Education, Mr Chairman, the problems which are found in the structures which exist internally in the schools of Black people, in the schools of White people, and also in the schools of other population groups.  The problems which exist pertain to the distribution of teachers and those who are employed to assist in the schools.  One finds that the distribution of these people is not the same when it comes to the schools that have previously been discriminated against.  What we find, Mr Chairman, is that the standard of teaching has decreased drastically.  The commitment on the part of teachers has decreased.  Likewise, the management of Education is at a shockingly low standard.  Also, contributing to this is the fact that the parents do not play the role that they should be playing in the education of their children.

Other problems that we face, Chairperson, is over-crowding in the class-rooms.  In some districts one finds that there are many children in each class per teacher.  In some areas schools where teaching is taking place, are inaccessible, nobody can get to them.  You cannot even use a four-by-four.  T/E

Mr Chairman, the School Register of Needs Survey conducted by the HSRC, the Education Foundation and RIEP on behalf of the Education Department, nationally, during 1996 indicates clearly shockingly disappointing shortages in material and human infrastructure in the public schools.  

We view the inability of the Department to provide a forward looking plan to eliminating the shortages with grave concern.  The Department must set aside dedicated funds for this purpose.  The Department of Education overspent its 1997/1998 budget by over R800 million, out of a total budget of R6,1 billion.

In an attempt to reduce the anticipated deficit, the Department considered a number of options:

1.	Slashing the annual textbook budget.
2.	Moratorium on filling of vacancies.
3.	No replacement of educators.
4.	Rationalisation of colleges.
5.	Retrenchment of temporary educators.
6.	Termination of cleaning and security services.

The budget for building of schools and maintenance was reduced to R100 million which would cover only maintenance and renovations.

On the other hand, the Department failed to streamline its management to improve its efficiency and effectiveness.  The Department here again failed to produce a comprehensive plan to deal with the crisis, Mr Chairman.  The quality of teaching and learning now appears to be declining.

There is serious unease and demoralisation within the teaching profession, largely as a consequence, of the mismanagement of the voluntary severance package, and a lack of control over the implementation of the redeployment of educator and non-educator staff.  This, in some cases, has led to disruption which began shortly after the schools opened and continued well into the second term of schooling.  Effective teaching and learning is threatened by low educator productivity and discipline.  

Mr Chairman, we are concerned about a lack of leadership, vision and strategy to ensure that education is put on a sound footing, that teachers teach a full day, a full five day week, a full term; that the ghost educator phenomenon is combatted; that both teachers and learners are committed and dedicated to their class work and that high levels of absenteeism and truancy on the part of educators and learners is addressed.

Blatantly inaccurate statistics in respect of teachers, pupils and non-teaching staff are used in the compilation of the budget.  This House is called upon to vote on this same budget.

The Department need to engage all stakeholders to restore a sense of professionalism, pride and responsibility to all educators and education managers.  I argue that it is possible, Mr Chairman, to provide quality education for all with the present budget.  For example, by ensuring that resources allocated are procured economically and utilised effectively and efficiently.

South Africa spends about 25% of its annual budget on education alone, and the World Bank believes this is probably too much for a developing country like ours, yet the productivity level is still disappointingly low.  Expending State funds economically, effectively and efficiently means that wastage attendant in areas such as building and renovations of schools must be controlled.

Mr Chairman, I want to refer the House to the report of the Auditor-General of 1997 where he commented on the wastage, in this respect, in the Department of Education, where the Department terminated contracts after professional fees of, for example, R161 647 had been incurred.  That was not the only case.  There are other cases cited in the report of the Auditor-General.  Another case, for example, is in respect of the construction of Woodview Secondary School.  Another case is in respect of the construction of the Sydenham Secondary School where, after the contract was entered into, the Department found that the land on which the school was to be erected was actually occupied by people.  The Department lost a considerable amount of money in respect of professional fees, that was R532 903.  That was the amount of money that the Department had to incur.  I also want to cite another example, it is just the tip of an iceberg, Mr Chairman, of a College of Education at Gamalakhe, where the Department incurred, approximately, R1,9 million in just penalties alone.

All we are saying, Mr Chairman, is if these wastages can be avoided in the Department of Education it is possible that we can stay within the budget and avoid pressing the panic buttons which resulted in throwing out quite a number of educators in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  Mr Chairman, I want to maintain that point and say that it is possible. 

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Chairman, will the hon Xaba take a question?

MR V C XABA: [I will not take a question].

Mr Chairman, I thought I should raise some of these issues so that they can be taken into account, when planning is being done.  As I pointed out earlier we are being called upon to vote on the budget that is based on incorrect statistics.  The Province of KwaZulu-Natal, the Department of course, took a decision to devolve decision-making to eight departmental regions.

Mr Chairman, to some extent that was a good decision.  It in fact created a possibility for a closer working relationship between schools and administrators which would of course allow people to participate in the affairs of our schools at a grass-root level.  However, it is actually disturbing, and of course disappointing to know that four out of eight regions are in fact functioning.  We can defend that and say that the Department spent about R88 of the R2175 per capita on administration, but on the other hand, we cannot justify the fact that that money is being poured into that and we are not achieving any desirable results.  The personnel in these regions have very little work to do, since they have no budget with which to develop urgently needed programmes.  That is a serious case, Mr Chairman.

Does the Province of KwaZulu-Natal need eight regions pegged with posts as high as eight chief directors and 24 directors?  I do not know.  Perhaps that is the question that we need to ask ourselves.  It is in that context, Mr Chairman, that we are actually suggesting that the administration structures should be reviewed.  It is our view that they were actually created in a rush when we were amalgamating all the ex-departments.  I can say, without any doubt, that that process was driven by officials guided by personal interests.  They all wanted to occupy senior positions in a future administration.  I still feel that that is an area we need to attend to.

This is certainly more than the other provinces spend on administration.  I am mindful of the fact that we have a larger school-going population in this Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  There is in fact an urgent need to review this expenditure on administration.

The hon Minister Dr V T Zulu touched on the fact that the per pupil expenditure in the Province has actually decreased.  I agree with him.  I agree with him that we are now paying less than we were paying before on average per capita.  I agree with him, Mr Chairman, but who is to blame in this regard?  

AN HON MEMBER:  The National Government.

MR V C XABA:  Who does the divisions?  Are we responsible for the divisions of allocations to the various departments and provinces?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

AN HON MEMBER:  No, if you blame the National Government you should go there.

MR V C XABA:  We would welcome the Minister in our caucus where he would be able to receive some form of education on the allocations of funds to the various provinces by the Central Government.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR V C XABA:  It has been pointed out before that in fact we are moving towards a point where the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, in particular, will get its fair share.  In fact the allocation to the Province of KwaZulu-Natal represents an increase as compared to what was said by the hon members here on my left-hand side.  We are actually working towards that, Mr Chairman.  We thought the Province of KwaZulu-Natal was going to be kind enough to appropriate to ...

MR M F REHMAN:  Point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Point of order.

AN HON MEMBER:  No sit down.

MR V C XABA:  No, no point to take.

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Chairman, would the hon speaker take a question?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can I hear the point of order please?  Hon member Mr Rehman, can I hear your point of order please?

MR M F REHMAN:  Will the member please take a question from me.

AN HON MEMBER:  No, no.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is not a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I cannot hear you.  Hon member please continue.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  With respect, that is not a point of order.

AN HON MEMBER:  Oh, sit down.

MR V C XABA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  What is actually happening today in this House is what you saw during the debate of the Education Laws Amendment Bill, where there are no longer seven parties in this House, but there were eight.  The ruling party was divided into two.  We heard from the faction which supported the Bill, the Education Laws Amendment Bill, and within the same party there was another faction which opposed it.  The latter faction, Mr Chairman, unfortunately happened to much more influential, do not want progress in this Province, and succeeded in trying to vote down the Education Laws Amendment Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!

MR V C XABA:  Mr Chairman, perhaps these are the issues that we need to attend to, because while efforts are being made to try and bring about fundamental transformation in the education system, they thwart these efforts, and they come here and complain and say that we are actually not taking education seriously.  The ANC, Mr Chairman, has a policy.  A policy that takes the interest of education closer to the hearts of every member of the African National Congress.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left for the speaker.

MR V C XABA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!

MR V C XABA: 
TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, I want to say lastly, that the problem that we were facing in education is a problem which needs all of us to come together without apportioning blame and pointing fingers at each other and protecting oneself.  That we could do and do it successfully.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, the hon member.  The next speaker is the hon M F Rehman for 20 minutes.

MR M F REHMAN:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  At the outset I would like to compliment the hon Minister in presenting a detailed report here today.  I would also like to place on record my sincere thanks and appreciation to the head of Education, Dr Mike Jarvis, Mr Shamase, Mr Paul Kunene, Mr Derrick Sole and our regional director for Ladysmith area Mr Ben Martin for their kind assistance throughout the year. 

Four years ago the Government was elected with a mandate to transform a rotten system of education.  Four years ago education in this Province was run by a nightmare collection of five separate racial and ethnic departments.  Under our democratic Constitution we have created a single, non-racial, non-sexist system of education.  Four years ago the education set up was founded on a denial of equality between human beings in their own country, on a history of outright white supremacy, separate development, separate freedom, plural affairs, community development and all the other lies and abominations on which minority rule in this country was based.

We promised to do away with all that, and we have proudly done so.  The ideologies of racial and religious fantasy have been replaced by the humane constitutional values of equality and non-discrimination, equal respect and equal dignity.  Discrimination in admissions policy is outlawed.  I compliment our hon Premier for his prudent governance and fiscal restraint.  I, however, need to stress that this is really an austerity budget, but we from the IFP have confidence in the hon Premier and the hon Minister of Education Dr Vincent Zulu.  They are to be commended on their determination to help educate individuals of our Province.  There is no doubt that Minister Zulu is committed to providing quality education as best as he can.

The KwaZulu-Natal Education Department received R6,869 billion for the financial year 1998/1999.  This Department initially requested R9,5 billion.  Personnel costs comprise 93% of our total budget.

Chairperson, on Thursday, 14 May 1998 I was in Cape Town at the National Council of Provinces when the National Minister of Education announced that his Department was working to reduce this figure to 80%.  The new policy on post provisioning, which has been approved by the Council of Education Ministers and is currently in the education labour relations council process will enable provinces to budget realistically, equitably and on sound educational grounds for their educational personnel.

Minister Bengu went on to say that right-sizing the personnel component is inescapable, the teacher unions are not supporting it, but in budgetary terms Mr Bengu said, "We have no choice".  Minister Bengu said that the new national norms and standards for school funding will tackle unequal funding head on, and give provincial Governments the necessary guidance to distribute their scarce resources in the most equitable affirmative and effective way we can collectively devise, and the hon Minister intends to announce the new norms in August this year for progressive implementation from early 1999.

Minister Bengu went on to say that a new job description for educators will empower provincial authorities to punish abuses like absenteeism, irregular job sharing and undisciplined behaviour, which are an insult to teachers, learners and the educational profession.

Chairperson, our Constitution certainly contains serious flaws which, if left unchanged, will always give the haves unfair advantage over the have nots.  Ironically it is exactly these flaws whose removal the National Party and the DP may fear, because that would end the unfair privilege which they generally continue to enjoy at the expense of everyone else.

AN HON MEMBER:  Private property I suppose. 

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Chairperson, can I be protected.  Chairperson, we as parents are worried that soon the ANC led Government will implement a policy that learners from Grade 10 to 12 will be privatised.  This means that parents will have to pay an enormous amount for the last three years of the child's education.

In 1994 the ANC's election policy was that they will double the number of textbooks within one year, they will build more schools and employ more educators.  The ANC Government has already spent R1,2 billion on severance packages alone, but has only spent R800 million on classrooms.  At the end of this year the ANC Government will retrench a total of 73 000 educators in our country.

Many students, teachers and some parents have filtered their anger on the Government and our hon Minister Dr Vincent Zulu.  We should be reminded that the Department of Education is the largest of all education departments of the nine provinces.  It has a student enrolment of 2,70 million.  Hence the idea of psychological projection is fast becoming normative in our society.  Moreover, students and teachers need to look at their part in this crisis, often learners who are not thoroughly prepared are inclined to end up with abysmal results.  Although much of the academic year has been lost, a kind of nihilism has taken root in the minds of some of the learners.

It is a well-known fact that all provinces have been underfunded for many years, especially KwaZulu-Natal.  This underfunding was carried out by the previous Government.  It must not be forgotten that KwaZulu-Natal has over 25% of the population of South Africa.  Our budget for 1998 is R6,869 billion, in spite of the Education Department needing R9,5 billion.  Chairperson, one of the most evil features of ~Apartheid~ was its manipulation of the education system.  Black children were subjected to schools characterised not only by inferior material resources, but by a curriculum designed to make them less capable than whites.

With our system in KwaZulu-Natal, the hon Minister has attached priority to the transformation of these schools.  Breaking away from the past has been reflected with a lot of controversy.  KwaZulu-Natal has faced huge financial obstacles in its quest to effectively address the rate of illiteracy in the Province.

The lack of qualified staff and bad teaching habits of ineffective learning or teaching have been incubating our schools for some time.  The following quote from a young student helps explicate my point:

	I have trouble of writing left-handed.  So this day the teacher took my book, she saw the bad writing and shouted, "Sandla samfene", (that means baboon's hand).  She threw the book from the window and all the children laughed.  My heart was very sore that day.

The role of any Government or democracy is to provide enabling legislation, policies and opportunities for all its citizens.

Chairperson, there is an enormous discrepancy between the policies, development programmes and legislation coming out of the National Government, and the funds which KwaZulu-Natal receives.  This really denies us the possibility of carrying out most of the policy initiatives.  Because funding for education has been insufficient, policy directives should change this.  Minister Vincent Zulu has highlighted the fact that the Provincial Education Department received the total sum of R6,8 billion per year form Central Government.  R6,5 billion is spent on teachers' salaries.  Moreover, the textbooks alone amounts to R80 million.  We need to look at reconstruction and equity.  Rural schools have suffered the most from the lack of funds.  Moreover, the fiscal restraints hamper us from overcoming these socio-economic overloads.

During February this year Minister Sibusiso Bengu announced his intention to spend R300 million on a learning TV channel.  How can Mr Bengu spend R300 million when there are rural schools with no toilets and no classrooms?  In KwaZulu-Natal we are short of at least 14 000 classrooms.  The list of deficiencies is endless.  The expenditure on personnel alone, including plus/minus 79 000 educators amounts to 93% of the total budget.  While the budget is compact, the repercussions are that we need to unearth corruption, fraud, etcetera.  Previously the Nationalist regime consciously underfunded KwaZulu-Natal.  Now the ANC is following the same route.

Since 1994, Chairperson, I have visited over 100 schools, especially those in rural areas.  Most of these schools have no access roads.  Even driving a 4X4 vehicle one has difficulty in reaching these schools.  Most of the schools lack electricity, flushing toilets, water on site, yet my dear brothers and sisters, we are fighting for cleaners and security guards.  The societies which under the old Government, enjoyed a reasonable standard of education, that is the white and Indian pupils, being at the top of the privilege tree are now feeling the pinch.  They have always had enough cleaners, teachers, school books and enough resources.  Now the pie has to be sliced equally among far larger numbers and consequently in far smaller proportions.  The education train has to accommodate all those that were previously on board, as well as several million who were left behind, struggling with inferior resources, if not no resources at all.

According to the South African Institution of Race Relations survey for 1993, prior to the ANC Government assuming power in 1994, about 4,3 million children required education.  Chairperson, this figure has almost tripled now!  Undoing the unwieldy discrimination system has been an enormous task.  Prior to 1994 this Province alone had five departments.  Thus being the largest Department, the slice of the national budget pie is still not enough, and there appears to be no provision for increasing the budget.

In addition, in the course of the year, numerous complaints from parents about teachers are received.  A fairly recent one is where a Muslim female was sent home because she wore a headdress.  I must emphasise at this point, that no child should be sent home or refused permission purely on the uniform issue.  How unfortunate that Mariam Adam, 13 years old, has been caught up in a row with the Ladysmith High School over wearing a Muslim head scarf.  The school wants to bar her.  We need tolerance and respect for each other's religion.  Our Constitution guarantees the child the right of admission to a school.  It may come as a surprise to Ladysmith High, but there is more to educating a child than ensuring they wear the same dress as the next person.

We have an urgent need to school youngsters to be tolerant, to seek to create better lives for all, and not to be slaves to conformity.  The school should be pleased that one of its pupils wants to uphold her religion and should not seek to reject her for this.  It is sad that there is so much resistance to change.  We need to come out of our shells of the past, and face reality, the reality of being in a new democratic society where we all are equal.  I once again request that all education stakeholders are not to use children as political pawns in the process of resisting transformation, transforming education in the Province.

I must emphasise that the Central Government has advised all provinces not to renew contracts with temporary teachers.  Instructions were that the Province's budget alone should determine the number of teachers employed by the Education Department.  This also means that rationalisation and deployment of educators would be left to the provinces.  SADTU spokesman, Mr Ndaba Gcwabaza, said that Professor Bengu appeared to be washing his hands of the problems, and shifting responsibilities to the provinces.  Yet, on the other hand, SADTU is not addressing the cause of the illness rather than the symptoms.  Why is SADTU not calling for other MECs in the remaining eight provinces or for the resignation of Minister Bengu?  These teachers have resisted plans to address the situation.  

Chairperson, in KwaZulu-Natal there are 1 855 schools without water, about 500 schools with no toilets and 3 023 schools have no electricity.  The list is endless.  Moreover, some 65% of our schools have a learner ratio below the interim norm of 40 to 1.  The Western Cape Province is still spending R4 150 per capita per child whereas we in KwaZulu-Natal are receiving R2 400 per child.  I strongly believe that our education budgetary allocation should be based on the number of learners we have in our Province, and not according to our census figures.

While I accept that there are genuine cases of shortage of educators, I must, however, warn those members of the Indian community, who have suddenly grasped the opportunity of gaining political points, that besides our children being losers, they will never ever succeed.  I must also hasten to mention that the majority of the members of the Indian community do not align themselves with those who have a political agenda.  

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes left.

MR M F REHMAN:  We must remember that parents in the old KwaZulu-Natal Education Department Schools have always paid for their children's education.  The communities in the rural areas have always built their own schools.  Our hon leader of the IFP, His Excellency Dr M G Buthelezi, has always practised self-sufficiency, and for the record, our hon leader introduced the RDP projects way back in the early 80s.

As I have already mentioned, what can our hon Minister of Education do with a mere 7% of the budget?  The Department must be given tools with which they can monitor the delivery, not only in terms of individual department targets, but also in terms of overall provincial growth and development.  The restructuring of budget controlled systems allowing in-depth financial data-mining within the Province is therefore required.

As I have already mentioned, I make a humble plea to all stakeholders, parents, educators, learners and teacher unions not to play dangerous games at the expense of our children, but to support our hon Premier and our hon Minister of Education to send a delegation to Cape Town to meet with Minster Trevor Manuel to motivate for more funds for our Province.  Chairperson, do I have more time?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One second.

MR M F REHMAN:  One second.  Chairperson, I would also like to stress the need ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your time has expired.

MR M F REHMAN:  ...to raise the basic education levels of school-leaving children.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr Rehman, your time has expired.

MR M F REHMAN:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  The next speaker on the list is the hon B V Edwards for eight minutes.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I do not have time to react to the hon Mr Rehman's, at times I think, misdirected remarks.  He is always such a gentleman, so I am sure he did not write his own speech.  [LAUGHTER]  But I wish to assure him that change is with us and the National Party fully supports it.

Congratulations I think must be offered to the hon Minister and the Secretary of Education, Dr Jarvis in the light of a disastrous financial year, where severe financial constraints were placed upon the Department, in putting on a brave face and in putting some positive aspects before us in the budget speech and in Dr Jarvis' annual report.  I do plead advanced tabling of the reports so that we can react in some way.

The hon Minister has experienced some highs, but regrettably many lows in education in the past year.  One low was the 54% matriculation pass rate after achieving 76,6% in 1995, declining to 64% in 1996 and down again.  Political commentator Antjie Samuels, an ANC propagandist, on Monday, on SABC Radio, stated on education in KwaZulu-Natal the standards had declined dramatically and achieved one of the lowest matric pass rates in South Africa.  That was propaganda, because in fact we were third, and a lot better than many of the big provinces, but that is what is happening.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  The biggest low was that the Department was in a bankrupt position, having overspent by some R800 million on the budget of R6,1 billion.  After somehow surviving 1996/1997, and almost balancing the budget, things went horribly wrong in the past 1997/1998 year.  What were the main reasons for the calamity?

Firstly, there was no increase in funding real terms, only 6,5% was allocated to KwaZulu-Natal, and hence nothing additional for education from the National Exchequer.  In last year's budget debate many predicted a budget overrun of R800 million to R1 billion - it did not need a genius to work this out, if we looked at what we were paying personnel, unless drastic steps were taken to curb expenditure.

But, was this done?  Yes, certain action was taken.  The capital budget was slashed from R550 million to R22 million, so nothing could be done to reduce the estimated shortfall of 14 000 classrooms.  Teacher training was cut back.  A short term expediency which could result in long term disaster to obtain optimum pupil/teacher ratios.  Vacant posts were not filled, and promotion posts appointment were unacceptably delayed which has caused much frustration and discontent to educators.  Who can blame them, with many having spent years in acting capacities, and many dedicated teachers have to be admired for their devotion to duty and professionalism.  There were exceptions of course and sadly the dissent is on the increase.

Education is our lifeblood and we must protect our educators, one of the lowest paid professions in the public sector, earning average packages of some R73 000 per annum, and the Deputy Director-General by comparison, earns R363 000.  This is totally out of proportion.  The present indecision cannot be allowed to continue, or we will see an escalation of militant action and chalk downs, the like which we cannot afford.  We have seen it escalating all the time.

A cutback on school books and stationery, you have heard that, only to the detriment of education.  We have also taken a drastic measure of going along with an ill-conceived national directive in granting voluntary severance packages.  We have had much discussion on this, and it was a most foolhardy decision to go along with it, I must say.  The bulk of our overspending, after taking drastic measures can be attributed to this scheme.

Some 4 500 educators, including 1 500 top posts, which quality education provision could just not afford, were granted a package at a cost to the Province of over R306 million, only the pension portion coming from national funding.  To compound the financial diaster, the Department made an incredibly poor decision to, we believe, employ some 5 000 or so additional temporary teachers at a cost in the past year of approximately R200 million.  Clearly we could not afford this action.  The hon Minister is still to answer the question, by whom, and why such a decision was made?  Where were these educators deployed, and how did the Department hope to meet the cost within our budget constraints?  I cannot understand it.

A year after the first democratic election in 1994, the ANC led Government undertook to close the gap in provincial funding, to achieve equity within five years.  We have discussed it in the past, it just has not happened.  Another broken promise.  Per capita funding taking 100% of the education average funding in the country, KwaZulu-Natal in 1996/1997 was 93% against Gauteng 136%.  In 1997/1998 we declined to 87% and the position is not any better in the current budget.  It is calamitous.

The budget before us of some R6,8 billion, we know will just not meet the requirements unless further drastic steps in cost cutting are taken.  Currently there is no doubt that education is exceeding its monthly budget, probably by as much as R50 million per month, particularly if one takes into account last year's budget has already been eaten into by the unfunded overrun of 1997/1998.  I cannot agree with the hon Chairman of the Portfolio Committee that our cash flow is within the budget.  As I calculate it, we certainly are running over it, unless I heard him incorrectly.

This is a very dangerous situation and the hon Minister of Finance and Education has to give priority and attention to this predicament or we will find our national funding suspended, which is a road to disaster.

We have also had unacceptable suspension or cuts in the provision of school transport, security and cleaning for the current year.  Even more serious has been the crisis our education has been plunged into by underfunding as a whole, but which has given rise to a massive educator dissatisfaction.  This was caused by the irresponsible and varying national directives on the termination of services, of so-called temporary teachers, many of them who have been there for years.

Initially circulars, the infamous HR circulars, were issued by the Department on the cut back required, being some 20 000 educators.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has a minute.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  This was reduced to some 10 000, then to 5 000.  To treat dedicated, underpaid professional educators in this cavalier fashion is just not acceptable.

It is amazing to note the comments of the National Minister of Education, Professor Bengu, introducing the debate on Education in the National Council of Provinces on 14 May, in supporting the Ministry's sustained campaign to bring personnel as a portion of the spending to a norm of 80% whereas we are presently in the budget 93%, and the actual expenditure in this past year has been some 97%.  The Minister says there are things we have to follow.  We need to reduce that personnel cost, we need to reduce overage and underage enrolment and we need to improve educator workloads and productivity.  Yes, we need these things, but we need to improve the morale.

I think my time is running out, Mr Chair.  

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member, your time is up.  Thank you.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Right, thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The next speaker is the hon S Mohlaka for nine minutes.  Mrs Mohlaka.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MRS B S MOHLAKA: [Good evening Mr Chairperson] Mr Chairperson, I rise to congratulate our hon Minister of Education and Culture, Dr V T Zulu, for his very good and honest speech.  Mr Chairperson, and hon members, it is a sad state of affairs for KwaZulu-Natal to be deliberately underfunded by the National Government, hence the problems.

The Premier of this Province stated:

	That a Government budget is defined as a financial plan in the hands of politicians and administrators aimed at ensuring that political and administrative policies are achievable within a given period of time, normally a year or so.

You can find this on page 89 of Volume 1, 1997, the Republic of South Africa, KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Legislature, Debates and Proceedings.

As you know finance is a very vital administrative and generative process, amongst other things.  We cannot exist or plan anything without finances.  It is a normal and accepted procedure in Governments the world over, to have portfolios headed by Ministers.  In South Africa it is also accepted to have Ministers without portfolios, but to have a portfolio without a Minister is unheard of.  A Minister is accountable for all his actions.

The Truth and Reconciliation Committee is not a portfolio.  It will be interesting therefore to know where the Government gets funds to cater for this.  All Government departments have vote numbers.  My concern, Mr Chairperson, is that the TRC has no vote number and therefore has no Minister, and no department.  Does the Government rob Peter in order to pay Paul?  Let us review the expenditure on the TRC, as one hon member keeps on saying that let us review the establishments of departments.  I am sure he will be saying so right through this debate.

Having presented the above scenario and the financial problems facing the Education Department, Mr Chairman and hon members of the House, the situation is further aggravated by the destructive intervention of teacher unions who tend to frustrate either the State and its organs instead of promoting its vision and policies.  Particularly SADTU.  The ideal constructive role of teacher unions, as I see it, should be to facilitate transformation, rationalisation and redistribution of resources.  Teacher unions have to be seen to facilitate and promote the above, and not to discourage, disorganise, and frustrate the organs of State, as I have already mentioned.

Teacher unions have to help build a culture of teaching and learning in schools, and a culture of ~Ubuntu~.  They have to help promote professionalism in the teaching profession which has been eroded.  The bottom line is to help to unite all the stakeholders for the betterment and upliftment of education.

You know, children become easily disorganised and disorientated when there is any form of chalk down disruptions, arising from strikes and stay-aways.  The youth form the highest percentage in all the societies and must not be interfered with, particularly at schools.  It is no wonder, Mr Chairman, that home schooling is becoming popular.  I must admit, hon members, that I had also thought that home schooling is for the bourgeois only.  It is not so.  A parent has a major role to play in the education of his or her own child, and therefore should decide what is good for his child or her child.

In conclusion, the underfunding of KwaZulu-Natal Department of Education and Culture has given rise to complications, well-known to you.  Therefore to blame the Minister of Education and Culture is not acceptable.  Thank you, Mr Chairman,.  [Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I do not have much to say.  I am yours].

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  The next speaker is the hon S Mchunu for 12 minutes.

MR E S MCHUNU:  Congratulations to the Minister of Education and Culture for his budget speech.  In South Africa and in KwaZulu-Natal as a whole, stakes are actually very high in regard to education, that relates to both policies and provision.  This is a country which has over decades created a separate school, a separate home, separate sports, separate parents, separate teachers and principals, separate books and everything for each of the white children, for each of the Indian children and for each of the coloured and black African children.  That was done by the National Party.

Even worse, a black African child in an urban area still has a different environment from that of a child in the rural areas, and yet another different set up for a child in the farm schools.  Now this is the first reason why stakes are very high, because undoing all this mess will take quite a long time and it requires energy of those who are concerned.

The picture, as I have painted it nationally, is exactly the same in KwaZulu-Natal.  To me this means first and foremost that stakes are really high for education in KwaZulu-Natal as well.  I just want to say that these problems which have been brought about by this set up, over decades, cannot be wished away.  We all have to confront it head on.  We cannot avoid it.  There is nothing that we can do about it.  To complain about the budget constraints is not going to resolve any problem.  We are saying this knowing very well that there is no money elsewhere.  If there is anyone arguing that there is money that we can get from somewhere, we will send a Boeing 747 to fetch that money.  If members are saying that the National Government is deliberately withholding finances from KwaZulu-Natal I would want that member to go there and fetch the money from where it is.

The truth of the matter is that the political stage on which our education is set needs to be intervened with a view to normalising the situation.  I am saying this because it does appear that the manner in which we are operating in education is somehow abnormal.

The first thing would be to normalise the relations between the National Minister and the MEC for Education in KwaZulu-Natal.  We must not say that the Minister at national level appears to be this, that, and the other.  I have observed over a period, that the relations between the two are not normal.  As long as they are not normal I do not think we will be able to achieve anything.  I know that the MEC for Education in KwaZulu-Natal has a role to play, just like the National Minister has a role to play, and co-operation between the two needs to be maximised.  This is not just the duty of the two Ministers concerned, it is also our duty as members of the Portfolio Committee, but we need to co-operate and agree first that this is the problem that we need to resolve.

The second issue which we need to normalise is the relations between the Department of Education in the Province and the stakeholders in this Province.  This includes the parents, teacher organisations and so on.  We cannot blame SADTU for the problems of education in this Province.  We cannot blame NATU, we cannot blame APEC and we cannot blame the parents.  We cannot blame anyone.  What we have to do is to bring everybody on board and define what the problems are and how we are going to resolve those problems.  Whether we have a lot of money or not, these are the problems that we need to resolve with everybody on board.  When we as elected members of Parliament only blame SADTU, and blame others, we do not understand our work in this Parliament.

The third issue which I think needs to be addressed very decisively is the question of the integrity of the Department.  When I talk about the integrity of the Department, I mean at all levels.  At the Provincial level, at the regional level, at the district level and even at school level.  Unless we do this we are going to have many problems.

We have to develop this integrity and build up a profile for the Department amid what needs to be happening in terms of the process of transformation, because that is at the centre of what we should be doing in education.  But if we want to develop this integrity, there are quite a number of things that we need to do.

The first one is that we need the best people and we need maximum co-operation.  You need the best people at the political level, that is in this House, in the Department and also elsewhere, but you also need maximum co-operation.  I am saying this because there seems to be a perception that problems that we are being confronted with in education appears to be overcoming the Department, and the Ministry itself.  As I have said before, we all need to co-operate maximally.

Mr Burrows pointed out one of the issues.  The Minister of Education needs to find time to be present at more meetings of the Portfolio Committee.  I want to agree with him, because it builds our confidence, as members of the Portfolio Committee.  We then feel free to contribute and assure that our concerns and our contribution are being appreciated at the highest possible level.  I am not saying that we need the Minister to do our work or appreciate our work as members of the Portfolio Committee, but we need to be taken on board so that when we make a contribution we know the Minister is present and will be able to address whatever we are saying.  But if every time when we attend a meeting of the Portfolio Committee there are only officials present, we end up asking questions which the officials try to answer and are often unable to answer.  A year is a very short period for this type of operation.  It is very important for the Minister to find time and attend these meetings, and then we will be able to go a long way.

The other issue which I want to discuss is really to point out a number of things.  The first one is that we certainly are not at our best when we operate in a confrontational manner.  We need to be pro-active.  The Department of Education needs to be pro-active, and have the capacity to foresee problems.  They must intervene before those problems actually escalate and the situation becomes chaotic.  Once a situation becomes chaotic, and it catches us unawares we start to blame one another, and we lose direction.  Once we have lost direction everybody feels hopeless.  When we have lost direction and everything becomes chaotic, and I am sure my fellow colleagues here in the National Party will be very happy.  They will be very happy because they are the first to say, ever since the ANC took over education in 1994 things have become chaotic.

As I pointed out last time, we took over a Department which was actually failing.  They started to destroy it and left it destroyed.  We do not want to hear anything from them at this stage, except if they are sure that whatever they are going to say is constructive and to the benefit of transformation.  That is what we are saying.  But I am saying we need to be pro-active as the Department.

One of the issues in which we need to be pro-active, except for VSP and the other matters that have been pointed out, is to in fact reduce personnel expenditure.  The question of retrenchment is going to be inevitable.

That touches on the issue which my colleague next to me touched on.  The manner in which we view retrenchment is not one sided, it has to take into account the administration and the teachers themselves.  Because if you take into account the teachers and do nothing about the administration it becomes very, very problematical.  It creates an impression that the Department prefers to have bureaucracy, at the expense of teachers, who have to actually ensure that the teaching and learning does continue on a day to day basis.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes left.

MR E S MCHUNU:  I am saying this because I know that in Gauteng they have already said that they are going to be retrenching personnel in September, and they have worked out a figure, and it is something that they are trying to engage everybody on, so that when the time comes nobody will have to panic.  Everybody will be aware and have the chance to contribute.  If we do not start doing something now we are going to be caught, and it will become a problem.

The last issue which I want to tackle is a question of teacher training.  There is a lot of garbage that was left by the National Party as far as teacher training is concerned.  When they were in power all you had to do was just to go to a college and study whatever you want to study, without considering the needs of the country.  They were unable to imagine what the country would need in the next five years, the next 15, the next 20 years.  They did everything as if it was the last day, and hence the teacher training was left unattended for a long time.  This is the curse that we have to deal with.  Many teachers that are presently in schools need to be retrained as part of the process to avoid en masse retrenchments.

AN HON MEMBER:  Your time is up.

MR E S MCHUNU:  No, it is your time which is up, not mine.  [LAUGHTER]  The last issue that I want to deal with is of course, and I appreciate that the Minister reported on getting rid of corruption, but I just want to ask one question, whether it is true that there is an investigation taking place in regard to sport, arts and culture involving R1,7 million?  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  The next speaker is the hon R M Burrows in his capacity as a member for eight minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Chair.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR R M BURROWS:  Not quite.  Those who have spoken for 20 minutes I believe have more opportunity than I.  But as a member of the Democratic Party, Chair, I had the opportunity to be present both for the budget speeches of both the Ministers of Education in the National Assembly and in this House.  Both have significant failings.

They both ignore the fact that in order to provide textbooks and stationery and all the other related resources matters, the issue of staffing in departments and schools has to be immediately addressed, not next year.  Parents and educators have to be told, with full information, that the budget will not be increasing, for example, by telling them that the national priorities as decided by the Cabinet in Cape Town are to allocate R15 billion to better bombs, fighter planes and corvettes and that means they cannot have improved schools.

Sir, if we are to move to a permanent staffing norm, for example, 1 to 40 or 1 to 35, or whatever the agreed figure is, then finger pointing between the Ministers has to stop, and a more imaginative exercise of how to survive and thrive within the budget must take place.  I have yet to see a single comprehensive suggestion from the Department of what schools should be doing to survive on a smaller State funding.  For example, there are no instructions, in detail, about parental funding, about community resources, about the usage of the school buildings, for example, by demolishing walls between classrooms for lecturing, for any of those.  None of those have been put out by the Department and yet some schools in this Province have been doing this for years.

This Province spends 38% of its provincial budget on education.  This is the third lowest figure in South Africa.  Northern Province, for example, spends 49% of its provincial budget on education.  We must understand that the Budget Council also plays a role here.  It spends, sir, the second lowest sum on capital expenditure of any province in the country.  Yet it is also true that other provincial departments, such as Transport, and Agriculture, and Local Government are being starved of funds.  South Africa spends 21% of its total budget on education, and yet as other members have pointed out from both sides of the House, concealed within that is the vast disparity between provinces regarding their spending per capita.  From Western Cape to KwaZulu-Natal the difference is almost twice as much.  It is certainly not equality, and certainly not equity.

We have a budget and this Department has to take decisions within that budget.  Within this Department there is much that can be done that is not happening, either because of political decisions taken, or because of national agreements, or because of sheer lack of initiative.  Amongst these are the following.

For example, we have allowed fully qualified teachers to roam the streets without employment after qualifying from colleges.  Over the last two years we understand that some 13 000 college graduates were not taken into employment.  These include fully qualified maths teachers, science teachers, technical subjects, because, sir, totally unqualified teachers have to be kept in employment.  I cannot think of anything more designed to keep good people from going into teaching than this pure stupidity.

Secondly, sir, we need to stress the importance of requiring a qualification upgrading from every teacher currently employed, who is either not qualified or underqualified in terms of the norm of M+3.  This should be done within a reasonable time constraint, and the penalty being termination of service for non-compliance.  People have got to get their qualifications improved.

Thirdly, all educators should be assessed within the shortest possible time, say six months, as to their competence within the area they are teaching.  Sir, 58 schools in this Province achieved a 100% pass mark in matric.  43 schools achieved less than a 10% pass mark in matric.  I would suggest you start assessing every teacher at those 43 schools in order to find out whether they are competent or not to teach the subjects they are teaching.  It is quite clear, sir, that we have a number of incompetent teachers within the profession who need to be weeded out immediately.

Fourthly, we have eight regions.  The eight regions were decided on very early.  They were discussed with the Portfolio Committee and the broad teaching profession, but we now know that the major expenditure on staffing and on rentals, and on chief directors might I say, there is an argument, a very persuasive one, for reduction to three or four regions in this Province.  
Fifthly, there is little or no disciplinary action being taken against staff members, either in the administration or educators, for what are breaches of behaviour and/or work ethic.  This includes staff not reporting for work, working short hours and not handling correspondence or complaints timeously.  In that connection, sir, let me quote from a letter I received just this week from one school, quoting three cases, and I substitute the names with a letter:

	A Mrs Y took over the post from Mrs B who resigned in September 1997.  Mrs B's salary cheque has continued to be received by the school ever since, and Mrs Y who is actually doing the teaching has never received a salary in seven and a half months.

That is quite an achievement, sir.  The second case:

	Mr K, a general assistant died at school at work in October 1997.  His salary is still being paid.  Copies of his death certificate, returned salary information have been sent many times to the Department without success.  His family have received no salary, and because the Department says he is still alive, they are not receiving a pension.

So for six months this poor family is destitute.  The last case, sir:

	Ms Z was appointed as a temporary teacher in June 1997 and placed on the lowest salary teaching scale.  Despite the Department being sent her completed teaching diploma four times, her salary was never increased.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute.

MR R M BURROWS:  Sir, all these are from one school.  I know from experience, there are many, many others.  Late salaries, incompetent and rude officials, non-response to letters, faxes and phone calls.  Every day I receive complaints about non-performance.

In another Minister's Department the boast is that correspondence in his Department has a three day turn around period.  This Department, I promise you, cannot boast a three month one.  Let us remember, sir, that administrative staff need to be assessed regularly on their work performance, and subjected to termination of service for non-attainment of targets.

I have been critical of the national spending priorities and of the provincial administration.  We all have to ensure that our schools, our libraries, our museums, our archives, our sport and recreation, are efficiently and frugally managed.  Every cent we spend should be in the service areas and minimal amounts, as far as possible, in the support structures.

Finally, sir, we need to proceed very rapidly to the point where we ensure that every institution of the 5 500 in this Department is a cost centre.  We need to know where the money is going within that school.  For example, why should one primary school spend 10 times as much on electricity as another one in the Pietermaritzburg area, both being supplied with electricity?  It does not make any sense at all.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, sir.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The next speaker is the hon A J Hamilton for nine minutes.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Chairman, sir, like old mother Hubbard's cupboard, the national fiscus is bare and that, Mr Chairman, is the truth of the matter.  The simple fact is that KwaZulu-Natal is grossly underfunded.

We can play around with figures but, the fact remains quite simply, we have not had sufficient funding to carry out our responsibilities as a Government in terms of the National Constitution.

We have 2 830 000 pupils in our schools.  The next highest number of pupils in a province in South Africa is half a million pupils fewer than we have.  There will be people of course who dispute our underfunding on the basis that our population officially is 21% - a figure we dispute by the way - of South Africa's total population, and our share of the national budget at 20%.  This is a trite and very superficial argument, which does not hold water.  Here I refer the House to the Distribution of Revenue Bill, specifically to Section 214(2) of the Constitution, clauses (g), (h) and (j), and I quote:

	It must be taken into account the following things:

	(g)	Economic disparities within and among the provinces;

In other words, our huge historical backlog of funding as a Province.

	(h)	Obligations of the provinces and municipalities in terms of the national legislation; 
		
	(j)	The need for flexibility in responding to emergencies or other temporary needs, and other factors based on similar objective criteria.

I refer the House to section 10 of the Inter-Governmental Fiscal Relations Act, 97/1997, clauses (a) and (b), which say:

	(a)	how the Bill takes account of each of the matters listed in section 214(2)(a) to (j) of the Constitution; 

	(b)	The extent to which account was taken of any recommendations of the FFC submitted to the Minister or any other consultations with the FFC.

Mr Chairman, it is quite obvious that we are grossly underfunded.  I would like to remind this House that Minister Zulu asked the Budget Council for R9 billion, my friend the hon Cyril Xaba's cheap shot about the Budget Council allocating too little to education, perhaps he is suggesting that the Budget Council should have taken it away from the portfolio of Minister Mkhize.  It was reduced to R6,6 billion, supplemented with an additional R200 million, bringing the amount up to R6,8 billion, R2,2 billion less than we asked for and even worse, Mr Chairman, the R6,8 billion represents a R344 million cut on last year's budget.  Furthermore, the allocation left only some R76 million for textbooks and stationery.

On top of this, 93% of the budget goes on salaries and wages, leaving only 7% of the budget to cover cleaning services, security, repairs and maintenance, capital projects, electrical and water costs.

The whole problem of the Department's funding was exacerbated by the introduction of the disastrous mess of the voluntary severance packages, introduced by the National Government and which we were obliged by law to carry out, and which the Cental Government now admits was a hair-brained idea.  Furthermore, Mr Chairman, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa spells out that everyone has the right to education until they are 16 years of age.  There is no funding qualification in the clause.

When the huge financial and delivery difficulties made themselves apparent, the Central Government first required us to dismiss 20 000 teachers.  Then it was realised that we did not have the legal right to dismiss civil servants, because of the security of tenure agreements negotiated between the ANC and the NP which preclude us from releasing civil servants.

Finally, it was agreed with the National Government that 5 000 temporary teachers would have their contracts terminated.  Even this is an impossible figure to achieve, although to date some 2 751 terminations have taken place.  The Central Government recognising the dire need to reduce the level of employment in the civil service or face disastrous consequences has been promising the provinces a retrenchment tool, and promising, and promising this tool but, like Christmas, it is still coming.

The National Minister of Education laid down the norms for teacher/pupil ratios of 1 in 35 and 1 in 40 for secondary and primary education.  What does Minister Zulu now face?  Surprise, surprise, Mr Chairman, a militant negative attitude from SADTU, a member of one of the Government's own tripartite partners who opposes these ratios which, in any case, were impossible to achieve given the limitations of the national fiscus, Mr Chairman.  They demand, along with threats of strike action and disruption of the schooling system, a ratio of 1 in 28.  What is the National Minister's answer to this hot potato of his own creation?  Why, Mr Chairman, to simply throw the whole matter of teacher/pupil ratios back to the Provincial Ministers.  In fact, the National Minister is increasingly giving the impression that he is rushing around like a chicken with its head chopped off, madly clucking around, whilst desperately looking for solutions to the problems of his own making in every corner of the fowl run which is rapidly closing in on him.

Furthermore, Mr Chairman, as a result of the policies of the ANC before taking office, when they espoused action such as liberation before education, and resistance to established Governments of the day in every field, their ungovernability philosophy - ie do not pay your rent, do not pay your taxes, etcetera, we have in our schools a widespread opposition among many teachers to work, to say nothing of many pupils resistant to learning.

Mr Chairman, the simple fact of the matter is that the problems in education are not of the Province's making.  The Minister here has never pretended his Department is squeaky clean and there are no problems in the Department.  He lives with those problems morning, noon and night, and probably in bed as well.  We are not saying that.

Mr Chairman, the simple fact of the matter is that the problems in education are not of the Province's making, and that in the short term parents are simply going to have to pay more to educate their children.  That is the truth.  It needs to be said that unless the national fiscus can find the money to meet our budgetary needs for education and for that matter, health and welfare, we are simply going to run aground. 

If any of the hon members of this House doubt what I am saying, let us remind ourselves of the long litany of departments at the national level who constantly bleat and bleat about the lack of funding being the reason why they are not delivering.  Just take two of them.  SAPS who, according to Meyer Khan, are about R1 billion underfunded and worse, Mr Chairman, he is reported to have said that unless they receive massive additional funding, the SAPS will collapse.

What about the Justice Department which is in a state of chaos and one step away from collapse, and has become a sad national joke.  According to Minister Dullah Omar, the cause of his travails is, wait for it, Mr Chairman, surprise, surprise, lack of funding.  What about the National Departments of Health, Foreign Affairs, Tourism and so the list goes on and on.

Mr Chairman, it is quite clear, we just do not have enough funding to tackle the needs of the National Government or the provinces.  Let us be upfront about it.  Let us not play politics.  We have plenty of policy differences to disagree with.  Tell the people and develop strategies to bridge us over this difficult time, and if all of us in Government, National and Provincial, admit to our problems of funding then, Mr Chairman, there are strategies we can devise which will save money.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The next speaker will be the hon S V Naicker, and at the end of his address the Chair will be resumed by the hon Chairman of Committees, the hon Mrs Faith Gasa.

MR S V NAICKER:  I want to compliment the Minister on the presentation of this Education budget, and as I do that, sir, having heard the various speakers and the constructive contributions and honest criticism that has been made, it indeed augers well for education.  I find today, Mr Chairman, that it is not politicised to the extent that one expects it to be politicised.

I want to honestly commend the hon Mr Mchunu.  He made some very, very valuable comments in this particular budget when he spoke about the interaction between National, Provincial and together with all the other role-players, to be pro-active in that which we are involved in, and that is education.  Obviously if we lack that interaction and being pro-active, at the end of the day again we are going to find ourselves in the same dilemma as what we find ourselves here today.

The hon Mr Burrows spoke about education being fraught with problems.  I am naturally intrigued by the reports that are being revealed here, as to how many meetings the Minister attends and perhaps what the interaction between the Portfolio Committee and the Ministry is.

I want to at the very outset also quote the National Minister's speech, which he made on 14 May 1998.  I am indeed surprised that in this Province we should find ourselves entangled to the extent in which we are entangled, sir.  He states there very clearly:

	However, provincial education departments should not have to pay an unfair price for carrying out the Government's political policy.  We have opened a discussion with the Ministry of finding out about how the costs of right-sizing is to be managed without sinking provinces deeper into the mire.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Mr Naicker.

MR S V NAICKER:  He mentioned this, Mr Chairman, over and above that, he goes on to say:

	Our new national norms and standards for school funding will tackle unequal funding head on, and give Provincial Governments the necessary guidance to distribute the scarce resources in the most equitable, affirmative and effective way we can collectively devise.  I intend to announce the new norms in August this year for progressive implementation from 1999.

MR R M BURROWS:  He has woken up.

MR S V NAICKER:  The question that beckons is why should we find ourselves entangled and be at each other throats?  It is the National Ministry that is supposed to take the decision on the basis of norms and standards.  It is not part of politics and, however, who is at the coalface of issues?  It is the Province that is at the coalface of issues.  Those that are in the House here are in touch and have their hands on the pulse of the people.  He also states here:

	The recipe that is required, the redress, the vast inequalities and gaps in facilities, improve the availability of textbooks, increase school libraries and media centres, invest in technology, enhance learning, expand ABET or equally child development, attend to the terrible deficit in education for learners with special education needs etcetera.

When the National Minister makes a statement of this nature, sir, we have to take cognisance and ask ourselves where to from here.

MR R M BURROWS:  He does not control the budget unfortunately.

MR S V NAICKER:  Yes, of course, Mr Burrows, and the hon Mr Rehman gave some figures about the various other provinces.  We have to have some distinct clarity as to how come one province receives R4 746 per capita whilst KwaZulu-Natal receives R2 400.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute.

MR S V NAICKER:  There has to be clarification on this particular issue.  I want to also, Mr Chairman, with great sadness bring to the notice of this House that the crisis in education unfortunately seems to have fallen on the shoulders of some Indian communities in this country.  I only hope and pray that we will grow out of this situation, and therefore the Ministry, together with the administration must not regard the Indian community as an advantaged community.  There was the hon Srinivasa Sastri, a first agent general to this country from India who said to the Indian people make education your salvation.  The communities did without a meal to do whatever little they could do to provide for their education, sir.  But today we do not have Indian schools any longer.  70% of the children in those schools are non-Indian and therefore there is no such thing as Indian schools.  Therefore, to believe that the Indian community here is an advantaged community is a misnomer, as far as that is concerned, sir.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.  Thank you very much.

MR S V NAICKER:  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Chair will now be taken by the hon Chair of Committees, and the next speaker to be called will be the hon Mr Y S Bhamjee.

MRS F X GASA THE CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES TAKES THE CHAIR

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Madam Chair, I wish to congratulate the Minister, I see he is not in the chamber.

AN HON MEMBER:  He is not here.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Anyway, I wish to congratulate the Minister and his officials for putting together a very impressive budget document.  I am sure that from this document we will be able to assess the way forward, if one looks at it critically.

Madam Chair, I have heard a number of speakers here argue that there is not enough money coming from national.  Well, that is true.  I think not one of us here in this House would disagree with that.  However, I have not heard one single member here say that we should nationalise our debts.

AN HON MEMBER:  We never heard that from Mr Aulsebrook.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  The amount of money that is allocated to education is more or less equivalent to the amount of money we pay on interest, more than R40 billion per year.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  We must recognise the fact that over the years ~Apartheid~ has done a disservice to education in the country as a whole.  If we continue to spend money as freely as the ~Apartheid~ regime did, then we will surely become a "banana" republic.

It is imperative that all of us will be serious rather than crying and moaning.  Perhaps we should all get together and decide to cancel our debts and let that become a movement, because that in effect will help us to ensure that that R40 billion which we are paying on interest will go towards improving the quality of education.

MR R M BURROWS:  You have got to convince your party first.  You do know that?

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Yes, but we do understand that we have people, like you, who represent big business and that they would not take to it very kindly and we would run into problems.  But nonetheless, Mr Minister, I think the point that we are making is that there are also foreign debts and these debts have contributed to our problem.

AN HON MEMBER:  I agree with you.

AN HON MEMBER:  By a percent.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Nonetheless, debts that have contributed to ensure that we do not have enough money to address the imbalances we have inherited.

There are also other important factors that we need to come to terms with.  My hon colleague Mr Rehman had indicated that the sections of the Indian community are objecting to the way cuts are being implemented in the Indian schools.  The fact of the matter is that most of the schools, that were formerly HOD schools, now host a number of African pupils who are totally disadvantaged.

Secondly, it is true that the previous administrations may have overstaffed those schools, but nonetheless, South Africa belongs to all who live in it and therefore democratically speaking, each community has a right to lobby and it is up to the powers that be to communicate with these communities to ensure that the way forward is outlined.  But to do that, we must ensure that there is proper communication between those that are lobbying and the Department.

We have established over a period of time that communication, Mr Minister, from your Department has been relatively poor.  For example, the Department of Education sent out a circular dated 13 July 1997, stating that all public schools will pay for their own domestic services as of 1 July 1997.  Effectively a decision is taken somewhere, but by the time it reaches the schools and to the principals time has elapsed.  Hence when the community becomes nervous and excited about the whole process, because they have received a circular 13 days late and they now have to pay back 13 days of service, that leads to confusion.  It is the people's democratic right to lobby the public representatives and your good self, Minister, to ensure that there is fair play and justice.  This sort of pressure is not healthy for your Department and for the officials whose responsibility it is to communicate the vision of your Department.

We have also established that when the schools were objecting to cleaners and domestic services were being reduced, it was projected that it was purely an Indian problem.  When we asked the officials of your Department to make it clear whether former HOA schools and former DET schools also had personnel employed by the Department, they said yes.  We requested that that information be filtered down via the media to ensure that this issue does not take on a racist form.  Until today the Department has not clarified the situation that all schools were affected.  Even today perhaps, if one begins to examine the situation you will find that some of the HOA schools and perhaps some of the DET schools have got cleaners who are on your pay-roll.

So effectively we are saying that if there is no communication, if there is no information filtering down, then the recipients of the policies have a right to lobby to ensure that their grievances are addressed.

On the question of temporary teachers being terminated.  First we were told 31 December 1997.  Then circular HRM1 postponed the process to 28 February.  Then it was said, via HRM16, that termination will take place on 31 March 1998.  Effectively, Mr Minister, for us on this side of the House, to defend the policies, the policies must be made absolutely clear to us, as to where those policies are leading to.

In our Portfolio Committee meeting we established clearly that there was disagreement between your senior superintendent and other directors.  There were two views portrayed by your officials.  The media was present to witness this contradiction and again I am saying that there is no vision, there is no clear plan as to how we address these issues.  If there is a plan, then there is no problem, but there ought to be a single directive.

If there is a plan, that plan must be communicated to us, and it must be communicated to the broader community that we represent.  So effectively, Mr Minister, I am arguing that yes, there are problems as far as finances are concerned, but if we are serious about equity then we must be in a position to clearly address those issues in a meaningful manner.  We need to work out a step by step process that you can defend and we will be proud to defend, but if the officials do not communicate that to us clearly, then that becomes a problem.

In terms of the redeployment of personnel, the Government Gazette clearly indicates that there must be a provisional redeployment list.  Is there a provisional redeployment list?

Secondly, we have consistently argued to know what the full compliment of your staff is.  To date researchers and consultants have been appointed and we have not received a substantial figure.  We are told 82 000, and at times you have mentioned 79 000, but why not, as my learned colleague I C Meer had indicated at one of our meetings, why not 82 001?  Why is it a round figure?  Is somebody thumb-sucking as far as figures are concerned?

If we do not have clear and accurate statistics at hand how do we deploy money?  We are told, in one document, that 98% of your income goes towards salaries, then in your official document we are told 93%.  What is the correct figure?  I am saying to you, hon Minister, that we need to have a clear idea as to where we are going.  Has a head count been done, and why is there a delay?  At one of our meetings we found officials giving us two different figures as far as the head count is concerned.

As far as the RDP funds in terms of school governance are concerned, task units were put in place to empower governing bodies.  Has this been done, and to what effect, because the governing bodies are central to the transformation of education?  Education management development.  What is happening in these areas?  There is not enough information filtered down to us.  Information technology:  where are the fax machines and where are the computers?

We know for a fact that in a whole host of schools, especially in KwaZulu-Natal, that there are no toilets and there is no fresh water.  When one visits these schools one is totally embarrassed to find that the other part of South Africa benefits so much.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Yes, and you represent that school of thought that says black people, especially Africans, must be hewers of wood and drawers of water.  It is an embarrassment that we should be part of that culture.  The hon member should ensure that he resigns from the party that ensured that African people should be illiterate.

AN HON MEMBER:  But that is not true.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Minister, we are saying that we are part of the process of change.  We are saying:  take our criticisms on board, because they are not destructive, they are critical and we are saying that bring us on board so that we can defend the whole process.  The culture of teaching and learning is open to us all.  You are a custodian of that process, but it is important that your officials give you clear guidelines.  It is true that some of the unions like SADTU and others are protesting, but it is also their democratic right to do so.  We may not agree with everything they are saying, but imbedded in the argument is also the principle of redeployment.  There are a host of schools, for example Ladysmith, has faxed to me today to inform me that they have no teachers.  Now officials had indicated to us that no school will be left unattended, but schools are being left unattended.  So promises are being made but no delivery!.

Where are the checks and balances to ensure that all schools have a teacher in the classroom, because at the end of the day we are saying we want to treasure the culture of learning.  But if the officials are not prepared to protect the Minister then, hon Minister, you must seriously consider ensuring that some heads roll.

There has also been a suggestion that there must be rationalisation as far as the regions are concerned.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has got to wrap up please.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Thank you.  There was another point that I wished to make, and that is that at the moment there is only R6,4 million allocated to sports and sports development.  R2,2 to in-school sport and R2,4 to out-of-school sport.  Last year, hon Minister, we found that your Department was dipping into the funds allocated to sport.  I will strongly appeal to you that the funds allocated to sport and sport development, becomes a protected budget so that those interested, and here I wish to record that I find your officials in the Sports Department very helpful and very creative, and who can get on with the business.  To promote sport you have got to ensure that the monies are protected so that they can continue with the creative programmes, because if you do not have opportunities for pupils in school and out of school, then clearly we are creating a situation where the vices of the world will absorb them.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Dis nou die agbare lid, mnr Combrinck.  Nege minute asseblief.

MR H L COMBRINCK:  Dankie, mev die Voorsitter.  Thank you for the opportunity to take part in this very important debate on education.

From the outset I would like to mention the following statistics so that it can be recorded, and in 10 or 15 years from now hopefully people will look back to this year and decide for themselves if any changes took place in education in the Province, where funds allocated from the Central Government is just not sufficient. 

To enable the Department to begin addressing backlogs in facilities and services, funds for vacant posts critically needed in schools to an amount of R9 487 498 000 was requested.  The amount allocated for 1998/1999 is R6 868 614 000.  A shortfall of nearly R2,5 billion to cover the needs for the Department in this financial year.  It must be noted that 93% of the 1998/1999 budget represents personnel expenditure.  The ideal situation would be that not more than 70% of the budget was to be spent on personnel or salaries.  The balance should go towards the building of more classrooms, and to see that we get adequate provision for our children.

Madam Chair, for those who work in the deep rural areas of our constituencies, to explain to the people that funds are not available for their needs is very difficult.  Little has changed over the last few years.  The best way of explaining to the illiterate people is to take a R1 coin and deduct five cents from that amount to illustrate what the amount is that is left to do the following:

1.	Building of schools.
2.	Repair of schools.
3.	Water facilities, electricity, toilets etcetera.
4.	Stationery and telephones.
5.	Furniture and equipment.

Madam Chair, let us take a look at the following information available to us.  There are 14 500 classrooms needed in the Province.  400 000 learners without classrooms.  818 schools without libraries.  3 314 schools without electricity.  1 913 schools without water.  3 559 schools without telephones.

The question I would like to ask is this, and I would like the hon Mr Senzo Mchunu to listen to my question, because the old promise of 1993/1994, from his leader, was free education for all for 10 years.  Do you therefore call this free or fair, while thousands of privileged people have to pay thousands of Rands for education to keep the standards up, and the poor get nothing from the Government?  No, Madam Chair, that is something that is going to backfire in the future and then be recorded in the history books of this country.  Admit it, education in this country from Grade 1 to the universities is in a shambles.

The following statistics must be mentioned because it indicates to us the unfair practices that are being applied in education.  We know that this Province had the highest, namely nearly 2,9 million learners in the schools with more than 75 000 teachers.  The per capita expenditure per pupil in the Western Cape is R4 746 and in KwaZulu-Natal R2 400.  Why?  Madam Chair, for development planning to take place, we need information and it is therefore heart warming to know that while the new GIS system is in place.  With the data that is processed by this system, daily, we can very accurately determine our needs in this Province.  Fieldwork was done in close co-operation with each provincial co-ordinator, area manager and circuit office manager.  The HSRC was responsible for the management of the fieldwork on a national scale.  More than 100 trained field workers were employed at a time.  The survey depended heavily on liaison with regional and circuit managers and with departmental staff to guide the field workers to institutions and to assist with their location.

Approximately 32 000 schools were visited and mapped with the GPS.  Some very important observations were made, namely:

1.	The severe shortage and poor conditions of facilities, especially in rural areas.
2.	The absence of basic provisions such as water, electricity, toilets, fences and telephones at rural schools.
3.	Rapid migration of the population from rural to urban areas.
4.	Discovery of closed schools which could be utilised for needy communities.
5.	The need for the amalgamation of certain institutions and the provision of transport.
6.	The lack of informed planning and educational provision, ie over-provision of secondary schools in some areas compared to the under-provision in other areas.

Madam Chair, with the information at our disposal, plans can be made to improve the conditions of our education system in the Province.

I would like to take this opportunity to talk about the truth in education and put the facts on the table.  Is it not true that this Province is underfunded if one looks at the figures already given to this hon House?  Is it not true that the National Department told the Province to put retrenchment packages up and that more than 3 000 highly qualified teachers and principals were lost?  Is it not true that other provinces were funded by national for this system and not us?  It is true that plus/minus R306 million was spent on the retrenchment of teachers.  It is true that the National Department admitted that the retrenchment of teachers was a miserable failure.

It is also true that the Province was told to retrench 20 000 teachers, including the temporary teachers, but only after lengthy negotiations with Cabinet was it agreed that some 5 000 temporary teachers would lose their jobs.  It is also true that KwaZulu-Natal and the Western Cape are targeted by SADTU, by means of threats and demonstrations because these provinces are not in the control of the ANC/SACP/COSATU alliance.  What a shame.

Madam Chair, in this Province we and this hon Minister are striving for equity.  Why should schools and parents demonstrate by closing schools while thousands of schools in the Province stay open, and do not even have the basic tools for proper education?  I will not even mention school cleaning services and security.  The culture of teaching and learning that was taken away due to ~Apartheid~ must be brought back to our schools.  There is no excuse any more.

Too many schools in the Province close whenever they want to, with children wandering around at 10 o'clock in the morning along the roads and in the towns of the Province.  Teachers leave schools unattended to go shopping or pick up their pay at the end of the month.  This situation must stop now.

I would like to tell the following story or fairy tale.  Unfortunately and hopefully in this case this fairy tale will have a positive and beautiful ending.

Once upon a time in a small, small village a school looked into the crystal ball and accepted that the changes in this country were for the benefit of all.  Small children of different races came together and accepted each other without incident.  When the school principal and his wife accepted the Government package after years of loyal service, and the temporary teacher resigned, the elders who had already written months before to inform them of their situation and ask for help.  Due to the education crisis in this country caused by the Government, steps had to be taken to improve the situation.  With the little money they had, and remember only one teacher remained to teach 90 children, two new teachers had to be paid by the elders.

Also in this area there is an overloaded, tired MPP whose children attend this school.  He took this matter up personally, and under weekly pressure from the parents, promised he will do his best.  One thing we must remember, is that these people accepted the facts and problems and did not close their school and demonstrate like the others, while Grade 5, 6 and 7 classes combined ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would ask the hon member to wrap up.

MR H L COMBRINCK:  ...... under one teacher, but he was also the acting principal and sports coach and until now has tried his level best to cope.

Madam Chair, this MPP then tried to phone the Department to find out exactly what was happening.  He contacted a high official, and in a polite manner, greeted this high official.  It took quite some time to contact this person.  Just to be friendly, the stupid MPP called the high official the "scarlet pimpernel", and how difficult it was to get hold of him because of his workload.  The high official said to the MPP, "If I am a scarlet pimpernel, I do not want to talk to you", and threw the telephone down in his ear.  How rude can a person be.

Madam Chair, lastly, to my knowledge, the scarlet pimpernel was a highly skilled person during the French Revolution in 1792 that did a lot of good, but was not liked by his superiors.  They could not catch this person and he would appear and disappear without getting caught.  I wanted to show you the Post.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

MR H L COMBRINCK:  Baie dankie, mev die Voorsitter.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now call upon the hon member Mr A Rajbansi, for six minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  I do not want to repeat what has been said about the funding of education from the Central Government.  I do not think any member of this hon House is divided on that issue.  I remember when the National Minister came down, Minister Jacob Zuma and our Premier publicly expressed the wish that we get more money from the Central Government.  I did indicate, Madam Chair, in a previous debate that change has a price tag.  Even if every province was satisfied with the allocation of funds in terms of the Constitution, the country cannot afford to bridge the gap between the haves and the have nots within this short time.

Our Premier, other Ministers and our hon Deputy State President have jointly indicated that we must direct our energy towards forming a partnership between the public and the private sector.  I agree with the sentiments expressed by our hon Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee and the hon Mr Bhamjee about information.

I want to suggest to the hon Minister and the Department, that you can take the same unpalatable decision in such a manner that you can avoid reaction.  I want to place certain things on record, and the Minister must tell the Province certain things.  We are all subject to national norms.  A Provincial Minister is actually a Minister of services, because a Provincial Minister's hands are tied.  A salary structure is determined at national level.  Your pupil/teacher ratio is determined at national level.  All the other things are determined at national level.  You are just a Minister of implementation.

We must tell the country that when it affects educators, when it affects public servants it is not determined by proper consultation and agreement, either at the Provincial or National level or with the unions, when it comes to public servants, and with the teacher bodies, not only SADTU?  We have many teacher bodies in this country.  We have many teacher bodies in this Province.  Are those teacher bodies part of the consultation process, before the norms and standards are determined?  I think if every parent and every citizen is informed of what is going to be implemented it must be as a result of a process of consultation and agreement with representative organisations affecting the teaching fraternity.

Let me give you the school cleaner's crisis which sparked off a reaction from the Indian community in particular.  When we talk of the Indian community and the former Indian areas, as the hon Mr Bhamjee indicated, there are many black African children who attend these schools.  Poverty must not only be defined in terms of an area, poverty must be defined in terms of an individual.  I think that if the hon Minister goes onto the radio services, and why I want to criticise the radio services is that those people who I would describe as a small coterie, agent provocateurs, who are not interested in the welfare of education, and I am not referring to the unions, I think in the Indian community now there are certain elements who are definitely not interested in the education of the children.  I say so because at the last meeting of the Education Task Group at Natalia the Chairperson of the crisis committee publicly apologised for publishing an untruthful and misleading advertisement.  He indicated to the meeting that he was going to publicly apologise.

AN HON MEMBER:  Where is your horse?

MR A RAJBANSI:  But let me give the Minister advice.  I do not think anybody can be against equity.  If equity means that you have one caretaker per school in the Province let us have it.  When taking decisions do not only take the former House of Delegate schools into consideration, but also the former House of Assembly schools.  I know there is a difference.  On the one side you had contract caretakers, and on the other side you had caretakers who were employed by the State, and everybody talks of the former House of Delegates schools.  The caretaker's contracts in the former House of Delegate schools was not made by the former House of Delegates, but by the Department of Indian Affairs that controlled education in the year 1978.  There is a lot of disinformation in the community.

We are sowing what we reaped.  You know, if any reaction is parent driven, Madam Chairperson, then we will understand.  What has happened, in this crisis committee, in the Province there are a few disgruntled educators who have hijacked the process and they are now bringing party politics into it.  I want to appeal to SADTU, especially SADTU, they are an important organisation, they are very relevant and I do not go want to go against what they generally stand for, but I want to say why do they come to the crisis committee and urge the former House of Delegates schools to boycott when there are more reasons for the most disadvantaged community to be angry with the Government, whether at national or provincial level?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Just 30 seconds, Madam Chair, with your permission.  The Minority Front condemns any organisation that calls for the disruption of education.  We are totally against it, and I am glad that in places like Phoenix and Chatsworth the parents are now reacting.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member is putting me in a spot.

MR A RAJBANSI:  And one day they are going to be lynched by the same parents.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thanks.  We now call upon the hon member Mr F Dingila.

MR T F DINGILA: 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  It was a pleasure for me to listen to the hon Mageba, reading Mageba in such an enjoyable way.

Sir, you have raised the level of Zulu today.  It is clear that you do not regret being a Zulu.  It is sad to hear that we have been allocated the smallest budget of all the provinces.  It is just as well, for everybody who is present in this House to see that if a person is in this Province, irrespective of whatever union, or whatever party, you are tarred with the same brush of being a Zulu.

I speak with great sadness when I say the hon Bengu who is the Minister of National Education, who is the brother of this Bengu here, the hon member that is sitting next to me, he does not indicate that he is aware of the suffering which he has left behind here in KwaZulu.  He is acting like a child that was educated by its mother who was working on a temporary basis, washing the clothes of a Boer.  She educates this child until it completes its education and when the child is working and speaking good English, it then says, "We have burnt the bridges behind us".  So saying, the mother is waiting at home, in the hope that that child of hers will send money, but the child denies it and says, "I do not want a person who smells of the rural areas" in its house at La Lucia.  The hon Bengu has forgotten himself.  He is like the prodigal son.

Mr Chairman, when I think of the money that went down the river, because of SADTU, the SADTU of KwaMashu, which orchestrated that the teachers of KwaMashu - they hatched a plot and killed each other.  After that, they said that schools should have guards.  Chairperson, all that money went down the river.  T/E

I am aware of the fact that the unemployment rate is very high, but that does not mean to say we must create jobs at the expense of the very disadvantaged children.  If it had not been for the stiff-necked KwaMashu SADTU, who advocated that demand, the Department could have saved a few million that now has gone down the drain.

Lady Chair, I would like to talk about the matric results.  There are numerous reasons that contributed towards the poor results in this Province.  I am talking about the last two to three years.  I will mention a few, mostly in the black schools.

1.	Irresponsible teachers.
2.	Bad politics at schools.
3.	Insufficient classes.
4.	Long distance travelling by pupils to and from school.
5.	Pupil/teacher ratio.
6.	Hunger.

Lady Chair, by hunger I mean that some children leave their homes at 6 o'clock in the morning to get to school at 8 o'clock.  They remain at school for six hours, and return to their homes at about 5 o'clock, exhausted.  They do not have sufficient time to study.  There are many more points that I could raise but, I once again like to mention that most of the primary schools in the rural areas are still not enjoying the benefits of the School Feeding Scheme.

The ball is in the court of the Department of Education.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR T F DINGILA: [I was present].  As I said, the ball is in the court of the Department of Health.  This idea is marvellous, but it is not benefitting a big portion of the rural schools.  The question is, what happened to the funds allocated to this project for the last, as I said earlier on, two to three years?  What does the monitor [I do not think Father is here].  What does the monitor of Finance, the hon member uBaba uMakhaye say about this?  Baba Makhaye, critics must make no mistakes.  I am saying this because during his budget speech he criticised all the Ministers, but he did not mention this.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR T F DINGILA:  I want to praise the Minister of Education for his courage.  He stood tall during difficult times when a certain group of people, to be specific, Madam, a certain political party hid behind SADTU and were throwing stones at you, Minister.  I was at a stage very frustrated by people who were very short-sighted, who could not realise that you were politically stigmatised.

THE CHAIRPERSON: [I would be grateful if you would wrap up.  Your time is coming to an end].

MR T F DINGILA: 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you.  Chair, forgive me as I speak as a Zulu.  There is a Zulu saying which says:  [By the Translator:  The literal translation of the saying is as follows:  "The fart of an important person is white on a nobody".  The interpretation of that is that an important person will always find a scapegoat in somebody who is less important than himself].
Sir Mageba, you are not a nobody that when the National Minister of Education farts, it gets white on you.  [LAUGHTER]

The ANC knows that a small amount of money is being allocated to KwaZulu.  You do not hear them complaining and saying, "Hey, comrade, allow money to come into KwaZulu".  They keep on complaining about the hon Minister Zulu.  T/E

It is high time that we forget about cheap politics.

THE CHAIRPERSON:.  [Your time has expired].

MR T F DINGILA: [Thank you].

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We now call the hon lady Mrs Downs, for six minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Through you, Madam Chair, I need to take issue with the MEC for Education.  To some people this might seem a petty matter, but to me it is serious.  Through you, Madam Chair, hon Minister, in your speech you made mention of handicapped and mentally handicapped learners and you referred to them sitting drooling in classrooms or at home.  I applaud the sentiment behind the sentence that you spoke, because I realise that you were bringing up an issue that these people are not being properly catered for.

It is the way that they were spoken of that I have a severe problem with.  I actually foster a mentally handicapped child.  I have a niece who is mentally handicapped, I deal with mentally handicapped people from two separate institutions, and I want to tell you, Madam Chair, that 99% of mentally handicapped people do not drool.  That it is something that we need to be aware of, because I find it extremely discriminatory.  It is the manner in which many people think of mentally handicapped, that they are unable to take a proper place in society.  This is not true.  It is true of some, but it is certainly not true of all of them.  I would just like the Minister to adjust his speech or speak to the person who wrote it for him, and bring this to their attention.

Now on to what I wanted to say about education.  Education is underfunded and we are seriously hampering our future by underfunding education.  Thank you, Madam Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  We now call upon the hon Mr M B Gwala.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  Madam Chairperson, and the hon House.  I rise today to add my voice to what has been said by the Minister of Education, and other speakers who have contributed.

I wish to express my feeling and the feeling of the IFP regarding the attitude of the media.  We note with alarm the growing bias and arrogance of the media.  When an ANC Minister delivers a budget speech reporters pack the media gallery, but when an IFP Minister speaks they are conspicuous by their absence.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  This is a very serious matter, because the public have the right to know, and the media should in fact serve the public.  The public can see just how servile the media is towards the ANC.

I congratulate the Minister of Education, Prince Vincent, the son of Prince Mfende kaMgidlana kaBesuthu kaMpande for the active policy speech he made this afternoon.  It is a well prepared document full of wisdom and courage.  You have proved to this House that your vast experience and leadership qualities cannot be tarnished by personal insults, whether they come from the South African Democratic Teachers Union or from the tripartite alliance.  You have proved to them that you are not a Johnny-come-lately in both education and politics.  We are proud of you, Ndabezitha.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  There are times when an unexpected thought or idea captures a perspective that would take a lot of analytical writing to convey.  Such a thought struck me when I was thinking about things I would touch on today.

I would like to talk about the school fever known as the education crisis, the education crisis committees, and the poor performance caused by both mass demonstrations and the implementation of what is called Curriculum 2005.

During March last year the National Department of Education announced the arrival of Curriculum 2005 and Outcomes Based Education.  The new syllabus is described as the best in taking the young generation into the future.  According to the National Department of Education, the curriculum was developed to overhaul completely, the present education system and to get rid of South Africa's legacy of Bantu education.  Through the outcome based approach the Government wanted school children to move away from note learning, where children simply memorise what they have been taught to a system that teaches them to think critically.

In theory the above is good for education and for South Africa as a country, but when it comes to practicality everything becomes impossible.  Besides the fact that this system is experiencing serious teething problems, the worst part of it is that it has never succeeded anywhere in the world.  The IFP warned the Department and the Government not to implement something that would cause chaos and disorder in our educational fields.

We are not surprised to learn that for five months now some of the Grade 1 pupils have not received their textbooks, throughout the country, from which to learn Curriculum 2005.  KwaZulu-Natal Department of Education has allocated R45 million to achieve this, but books have not been delivered.

You can imagine that the escalation of this problem will surely affect, severely, the poorest schools in the rural areas.  Even if the textbooks came in time, that would not solve the problem as most teachers complain that their training for the new syllabus has been inadequate.  The question that arises is how are we going to solve this problem?  I am concerned about the people, some are here in this House, that are driving union organisations whose aim is to destroy education in KwaZulu-Natal in the name of freedom.  I think it is high time that we now to tackle this problem head on.

It is a known fact that in the yesteryear there were leaders who advocated the slogan, "Freedom first, education later", while the IFP spoke about education for liberation.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  Those people who are back today with the sole aim of dragging KwaZulu-Natal education into chaos so that the people can judge the IFP led Government as a failure.

All educational institutions are being organised to become grounds for revolutionary propaganda.  Revolutionaries, like Cele, who operate within trade unions want to turn every child and every teacher into anarchists.

We have seen insulting slogans directed towards Dr Zulu personally.  The time has come that we warn those who are behind this campaign of vilifying and degrading Dr Zulu's personal status.  We do not have a problem with those who criticise the activities of the Department, but for those whose aim it is to play the man instead of the ball, they are creating a serious problem for us all.

Personal attacks will be countered by another attack, and some will be caught in the crossfire, I tell you.  Prince Vincent is a member of the Royal family.  True Zulus cannot allow his name to be dragged through the mud, as it is happening right now.  

Members of the Royal family and the IFP are sickened by the politics that are played by the trade unions.  Especially the South African Democratic Teachers Union, SADTU, as their members have decided to go out of their way to verbally abuse Dr Zulu personally.  Placards bearing insults against him are witness to this.

Let us try and prevent this before real damage is caused.  There are those who believe that a tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye is not at variance to their commitment to peace.  The matter of vilifying Prince Vincent may cause strife that can lead to a civil war.  Prince Vincent is the great-grandson of King Cetshwayo.  Those who have lost respect for members of the Royal family will one day, I repeat, will be caught in the crossfire.

The interference of the National Department in the affairs of the Province has created a perception that the war between the ANC and the IFP is far from over.

The Provincial Department of Education is under pressure from the National Ministry.  The hon Dr Sibusiso Bengu, as the hon Mr Dingila mentioned, has been seen operating within the Province addressing schools and public meetings without the knowledge of the Provincial Department.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House): [When I tell you about yours you will feel bad].  In most of his addresses he criticises Prince Zulu and his officials for not performing their duties well.  Mr Blade Nzimande, one of the most vicious animals, was planted here to destroy whatever efforts and progress was made by the Provincial Department of Education and Culture.

The decision to retrenching teachers is as a result of the shortage of funds.  This came with the present Government led by the ANC.  Dr Zulu was the Deputy Minister of the erstwhile KwaZulu Government.  He never retrenched teachers although the KwaZulu Government was underfunded.  I concur with the sentiments expressed by the hon Mr Rajbansi, that the hands of the Provincial Minister is tied as decisions are taken from the top.  He is being blamed for actions taken by the National Department of Education, such as the retrenchments.  The KwaZulu Government headed by His Excellency Dr Mangosuthu Buthelezi has in fact never ceased to build schools....

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member is left with two minutes.

MR M B GWALA: (Leader of the House):  ...and create more educational institutions such as colleges of education to accommodate more young men and young women after completing matric.  All was underfunded.

The budget that has been allocated to the Provincial Department of Education is very low, even after an enormous amount of money has been cut from other departments in favour of health, social welfare and education.  Education is very important as the Province has more school children than any other province within the borders of South Africa.  For that reason alone, the National Department of Education should have given KwaZulu-Natal a better slice in order for KwaZulu-Natal to fulfil its obligations.

I wish to praise the appointment of the Secretary for Education in the person of Dr Jarvis and other support staff.  Your service in the Department of Education is very valuable.  We hope that the future of education which is seen as bleak throughout the country, will be saved by people of Dr Jarvis' calibre.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We call upon the hon umAfrica uBaba Mkhwanazi.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you, Mama Sihlalo.  I want to congratulate and praise the Minister and his team on this eloquent report.  I know it was very, very difficult to write this report because of the situation that exists.

[I am most grateful again, because in Africa Week you read it in Zulu so that people remember that].  

We are of Africa.  We are in Africa.  All those who have their allegiance to Africa are Africans, unless [they are talking about other matters of concern to them], I do want to say because I serve on the Portfolio Committee, that the Education Portfolio Committee is one of the committees that have been very, very strict with the department officials, but they have performed well.  They have made mistakes and at one time I sympathised with my brother Shamase, but there was nothing I could do when he was being clobbered.  If I did protest it would have said it was nepotism.  [LAUGHTER]

Having said that, Madam Chair, when the debate started I got worried, and when I had made my speech to complain bitterly, but later on I found that the members do see the point that we have a problem.  Ma Afrika sine-problem 

TRANSLATION:  Africans, we have a problem.  We are not supposed to be using politics with the education of our children.  In my opinion, I have seen many people, they are those who speak well from both sides.  In my opinion, we are supposed to sit down and sort this thing out because this is in fact our education.  The education of our children is a matter of life and death.  We have been lucky, because even at senior level, this is another matter for which we have to sit down and talk.  

Even at senior level, at the national level, education is run by the children of KwaZulu-Natal, the hon Mr Bengu and the hon Mr Nzimande.  Nevertheless, one amongst them does not do anything for us.  He throws stones at us but as adults, we have to call him and say, "Brother, just come back.  Why do you fight us instead of helping us?"

Yes, Africans, these Africans have been given a difficult task to run education without funds.  As the hon Mr Macingwane has said, at times people here in the Province think that Minister Zulu is that bird in the story of Demane and Demazane, where they say, "Bird, bird, what do you produce?  The bird produces sour milk".  There is no such thing.  

Others look at Bengu and say, as he is at senior level, they think they can say, "Bird, bird, what do you produce?  The bird produces sour milk".  Africans, there is no money and that, in fact, is not the fault of this Government here nationally per se. T/E

The problem is that] all along people have been saying South Africa is a very rich country.  I have been telling them abroad that South Africa is not rich, South Africa appears to be rich because South Africa is a country of two societies.  The wealth of the country was being used to help only 5 million people.  The other 35 million people did not have anything, and [that is the truth].  I wish my colleagues in the NP would admit that.

Now that being said, there is no point now in throwing stones back there and kill the horse that died long ago.

AN HON MEMBER:  It is still here.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Is it still here?  It is dead.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is a donkey.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  What I think we should do, we should sit together, particularly those who have always been disadvantaged.  It is a crime for them to blame one another instead of sitting down..  [Africans, we are suffering badly.  Our children are experiencing hardship].   

Let us attend to education. [Then, in my opinion, what do I think should be done]?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member, your time is up.

MR J D MKHWANAZI: [Oh my God, I have not even started talking. Thank you].  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I call upon the hon member Mrs O Ford.

MRS O E FORD:  Thank you, Madam Chair.  Madam Chair, we have heard repeatedly of the dire straits that the National Government is in as far as their budget is concerned.  Receiving 29,2% less than the requested budget for the Education Department is really taking a knock, when, as everyone is aware, 93% of that budget is spent on personnel.  The 7% left is definitely not enough to supply all the other needs of our schools and learners.  I was advised yesterday of a high school in the Bergville area that has no toilets.  I intend visiting this school in the near future and if this is indeed the case, I will request the Portfolio Committee to visit the school, with me, to appraise themselves of the facts.  Maybe we should invite the Education Crisis Committee to accompany us, and then they will not complain quite so bitterly about what they consider are their disadvantages.

Just to make a comment about the problems in the Education Department, and all the hullabaloo about the cutting of costs.  I honestly believe that the people, who have, over the years, been the most disadvantaged are the ones who are making the least noise!  I am sure my fellow committee members have visited schools which have all the facilities anyone could ask for, in the line of libraries, laboratories, playing fields and so on, albeit these facilities are not always fully utilised.  Then we have seen the opposite, where there are no facilities at all, even though the learners are crying out for them.  What is more, those without have definitely been paying more in the line of school fees than some of those who now have the biggest mouths and the loudest voices.

Madam Chair, I wish that instead of making political capital out of the present problems, all the hon members of this House would do constructive things for education.  For the past four years, I have organised career guidance days for matric pupils in the Okhahlamba region.  During April and May this year, speakers from Natal University, Mangosuthu Technikon, M L Sultan Technikon, the Natal Technikon, Department of Labour and the Midlands Community College at Nottingham Road addressed over 3 500 matric pupils in the Estcourt and Bergville area.  This I consider constructive, not complaining and making political capital at every opportunity.

Transformation seems to be taking a very long time to materialise, and the blame for this, as far as I can see, should be laid directly at the feet of the teacher unions.  They seem to be resisting change every step of the way, and they have yet to understand the meaning of the words "transformation" and "equity".  Equity means just that; you cannot have some schools with every facility on earth and others with nothing, no water, no electricity, and worst of all, in my opinion, no toilets, not enough classrooms and certainly not enough teachers.  How are these learners in the rural areas expected to compete with those in the urban areas, those that have all the advantages?

In spite of the disadvantages I have mentioned, I am very pleased to say that two of the high schools in the Bergville area, disadvantaged high schools, had a matric pass rate of over 90% in 1997.  This I consider a remarkable achievement, and during my address to those schools on Monday and yesterday, I congratulated the educators and the learners for their achievements.

Sport in schools is a subject that really needs to be addressed.  Madam Chair, if learners are going to be exposed to sports only once they have left school, we are not going to be able to produce future world champions.  To compete against those people who have been reared on a diet of different sports is impossible, if this is what is going to happen.  I would appeal to the hon Minister to seek outside funding for sports facilities at schools.  A suggestion I would like to put forward is that facilities are built in a central area, in a rural area, to enable a number of schools to utilise the facilities instead of trying to supply each school with topnotch sports fields, etcetera, at an enormous cost.  The in-school sport and recreation component of the Department is totally understaffed at the moment.  This puts an enormous strain on those staff members who are in place and I am sure does nothing to motivate them.

Madam Chair, in closing, may I congratulate the hon Minister of Education on his ability to "vasbyt", in the face of extremely difficult conditions and assure him that he has my full support in his endeavours.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We call upon the hon lady Mrs C Galea.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Chairperson.  For the 1998/1999 budget, which was divided into 10 educational programmes, the Department of Education and Culture requested an amount of R9,487 billion which they estimated would suffice the Department of Education to begin addressing the backlogs in facilities and services, to introduce OBE and to fund the existing and vacant posts.

Of the amount allocated of R6,89 billion, 93% which was mentioned before, represents personnel related expenditure.  Needless to say that the Department has been severely underfunded and I doubt whether it will be able to work with these figures.  One of the steps taken because of the reduction in the allocation resulted in the Department not renewing contracts of all temporary educators appointed after 1 July 1996.  Although some of these educators would be reappointed in critical cases.  Official figures reveal that of the 5 000 posts to be pruned only 2 751 educators have had their services terminated.  This results in the Department being in the red from the very outset.

There are 5 626 registered schools catering for 2,8 million learners.  The Educator/Learner norm per class is 1 to 35 in secondary schools and 1 to 40 in primary schools.  This can have a negative effect on education as schools will, for example, be forced to offer fewer subjects.  The learner educator ratio varies in different schools and there should be fair and equal distribution of educational resources.  This cannot be achieved overnight, one problem being that many teachers are married and cannot consider redeployment without disrupting their family life.

The National Party is committed to relevant, affordable, non-discriminatory, equality education for all, in order to help all the people of South Africa to fully develop their abilities and to become self-sufficient.  We support the creation of opportunities for career orientated education and training for the youth to fulfil their rightful place in a prosperous South Africa.

During February 1998 the Premier appointed an Education Task Team.  With equity, redress and transformation in mind, the Task Team met on eight occasions.  The Task Team noted among other points:  the appalling shortage of physical facilities in our Province, as indicated in the survey of the school needs carried out in 1997.  It was highlighted and in particular, that schools lack any sanitation facilities, have no supply of electricity, have no telephonic communication, have no libraries, have no laboratories, and an overall shortage of 14 500 classrooms collectively.

Noting that the education budget was entirely inadequate to meet the needs of the learners of the Province, the Task Team made recommendations, of which I will just touch upon three.

1.	That a full analysis takes place of the structures of the staffing organogram of the KwaZulu-Natal Education Department in order to determine optimum cost effectiveness.  In this connection it is recommended that a representative Reorganisation Committee undertake this task, with the assistance of consultants and that they report back by 1 September 1998.

2.	That full and frank consideration be given limiting the regions in the KwaZulu-Natal Education Department, and this also be considered by the Reorganisation Committee.

3.	That the KwaZulu-Natal Education Department should establish a unit within each region that should be responsible for the co-ordination and implementation of a provincial security policy.  Many schools are broken into and thousands of Rand worth of computers and other equipment are stolen.

Partnerships between schools, community and business should be encouraged.  I am aware of three organisations that have various programmes which they would like to present to the Minister of Education, namely Lions Quest, The Community Alliance for Safe Schools, (CASS), and the Street Children Forum School Assistance Programme, (SAP).

Lions Quest is skills for adolescence programme which has two main goals:

1.	To help young people develop essential life skills, for example, decision-making skills, communication skills, skills to resist negative pressures to the use of alcohol and other drugs, so that they can live useful and drug free lives.

2.	To help young people develop a sense of belonging and commitment to their families, schools, peers and community.

The second programme, the Community Alliance for Safe Schools has emerged from a set of democratic and transparent agreements among voluntary, non-governmental and Government organisations concerned with the unacceptably high levels of crime in and around schools.

The primary objectives of pooling their human and organisational resources to effect three goals:

1.	To mobilise the community to protect the children.

2.	To equip school governing bodies with training and information needed to create environments for both learners and educators; and

3.	To build partnerships that instil a sense of community ownership of schools.

The third programme, the Street Children Forum School Assistance Programme.  The overall objectives of the School Assistance Programme are to:

1.	Improve self-image and personal growth.
2.	Provide a counselling service to those in need.
3.	Improve learner and educator morale.
4.	Limit and monitor the impact of social problems in the school.

I have just touched briefly on each of these programmes mentioned.  There is great concern about the learners and the problems which they have to face.  I have suggested that these organisations arrange for an interview with the Portfolio Committee and present their programmes as a matter of urgency.

In closing, Madam Chair, I wish to thank the hon Minister Dr Gideon ...

AN HON MEMBER:  Prince Zulu.

MRS C E GALEA:  Prince Zulu, I am getting mixed up with my welfare portfolio, sorry.  Prince Vincent, Minister of Education and Culture, Dr Jarvis and all his Department for all the work that they have done in presenting this budget.  This is a very tight budget.  Our children really need the support of the community and business so that we can actually help them in their education.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We now call upon the hon Mrs T Millin.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Madam Chair, before I speak on matters educational, I wish to state that tomorrow, being Ascension Day, a very special day in the Christian calendar, and no longer observed as a public holiday in this country, I shall be attending Parliament under protest, and only because I am participating in the Health debate.  While I strenuously uphold the absolute right of all to freedom of religion, it is an incontestable fact that the considerable majority of South Africans of all races are either practising or are nominally Christians.

Tomorrow, at 12:30, all present have been invited, individually to celebrate Ascension Day in Freedom Square, behind the City Hall.  What a symbolic gesture it would be, if all of us who believe in a supreme God, whether Christian or otherwise, were to walk the very short distance to the Square, led by our Premier (who has given his blessing to this suggestion) and his Cabinet, in prayerful repentance for the sinners we all are, yes every single one of us sitting here are rotten sinners!

HON MEMBERS:  Some more rotten than others.

MRS T E MILLIN:  And call on the Almighty to heal our troubled land.  Thank you.  
HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MRS T E MILLIN:  Madam Chair, as far as education is concerned, the rapid and sadly ongoing deterioration in the standard and quality of education in many of our public schools is of growing concern to educators, parents and pupils alike.

1998 was intended by Minister Bengu, to be a watershed year for education in which the system was to transform (read revolutionise) itself, with a thrilling new syllabus with two of the most important sounding names, namely Outcomes Based Education and Curriculum 2005, to be introduced with much fanfare in Grades 1 and 7.

Well, that was plan A.  Now teachers have been belatedly informed they will have to wait until the year 2000 for implementation in Grade 7, while introduction to the system in Grade 1 classes, among the poorest of the poor, has been considerably less than satisfactory in some areas, and non-existent in most.  In any event, the entire OBE system is patently unsuitable for the educational needs of the vast majority of South African pupils, with such a sophisticated system demanding every means of modern technology to be effective.  Clearly a distant pipedream for most, and even then a highly debatable system of education.

Minister Bengu is reported, recently, as having told the National Assembly in Cape Town, that all in education was going according to plan.  Well, that depends precisely what plan Minister Bengu is talking about, but if it is the plan all lucid, intelligent people of vision have for education in South Africa, then no, Minister Bengu, education is not going according to plan.  Not in the rest of the country, and certainly not in our beloved, beleaguered, over-populous and underfunded Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

Instead of passing the buck, and blaming the problems in education on the lack of funding, there is a crying need for vision and leadership at national level, which brings us, Madam Chair, to our Province, the most populous in terms of the poorest of the poor and yet astonishingly, the lowest in terms of per capita spending, thus putting our hon Minister, his Department, educators, parents and pupils alike in a "no-win" situation.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is the plan.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Yes, that is about it.  With the National Ministry requiring certain mandates from the provinces, and yet clearly unimplementable, due to gross underfunding, particularly in our case.  It is like a chief chef ordering one of his assistants to make a magnificent cake with all the trimmings, and not providing all the ingredients necessary to produce such a cake.  Sheer nonsense!

Compounding the parlous situation is the chaos of wholesale retrenchment of teachers, required by Manuel, in order for us to comply with the terms and conditions under which Education KwaZulu-Natal was granted a few more funding crumbs, and at a time when obviously every able-bodied teacher is desperately needed.

And our hard-pressed Minister sits in the middle, Bengu and Manuel ordering him to "cut and save" and the teacher unions, ably manipulated by certain politicians, warning against such moves!

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS T E MILLIN:  Our Minister is damned if he does, and damned if he does not.  There is much to say about education.  I would like to have spoken about the truancy in schools, the total lack of control, the lack of discipline and the absolutely essential need to bring back corporal punishment to instil discipline again, but I will not touch on that because there is not time.

However, I will conclude by touching on the recent announcement by Central Government that Minister Bengu, no doubt egged on by myopically marxist air-heads in his camp, that they intend radically cutting, even abolishing State subsidies to private and independent schools.  May I remind this House, that, if independent schools are forced to close, as many will be (and please remember only the tiny minority of independent schools are not the Hilton Colleges, Michael Houses, St Annes and Collegiates) the State, in terms of the constitutional provisions, will be forced to absorb these many, many children into State schools, and since pupils' subsidies at State schools are over double the individual subsidies to pupils at independent schools, even an arithmetical dumb-cluck, like me, and I failed arithmetic at school repeatedly, can deduce the added financial burden to the taxpayer and State.

As Mark Henning, the National Director of the Independent Schools Council has stated in an article in the Sunday Times, of 10 May 1998:

	Independent schools accept the realities of government funding.  They recognise the onus on the State for equity and redress.

And:

	The challenges before South African education are so great that to meet them will require the combined efforts of all:  public sector, private sector and individuals.

In closing, I would just like to say, Minister, you have my absolute 100% sympathy, and to the Education Department as well in all the hard work they have done, and I suppose we just have to accept these crumbs, such as they are.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We call upon the hon member Mr B Cele for 15 minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR B H CELE:  Madam Chairperson, firstly, I would like to start by pointing out a few things.  Starting with my young brother here, the hon member Mr Gwala.  It is really uncalled for when we are in this chamber to begin to call for crossfire, blood and such things.  It cannot happen.  Last week I made a speech saying that in the book by Amilear Cabral, he has advice for parents and that is, that the main duty of any parent is to ensure that the future of their children is safe.  There is no other duty for any parent.  For the hon member to come to this chamber and call for crossfire, blood and call people animals is uncalled for and is dangerous.  It cannot be allowed.  We all need to condemn that.  He needs to be educated.  He needs to live in the modern times.  Say things that you want to say without really ruffling the feathers and making people angry.  Should he start this firing, he might fail to stop firing.  At the same time he will be sitting here safe or sitting at his home guarded by the people who are paid by the Government while people are dying elsewhere.  He should stop it.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

AN HON MEMBER:  Threats are not useful.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR B H CELE:  Having said that, if you listen to the great Trevor Huddleson, Isithwalandwe, he said, "Naught for your comfort", that is in his book, and I want to believe that most of us here will take the opportunity of reading that book, and understand the systematic genocide when it comes to especially the Africans in South Africa when dealing with their education.

In his book he already predicted in 1954 that their dark days would be there even after ~Apartheid~ had ceased to exist.  That was when Verwoerd came with the Bantu Education Act in 1954.  That is exactly what we are trying to undo.  Great minds like the great Trevor Huddleson predicted these problems.  So there is nothing to write home about on this.

What I would just like to do is to urge the National Party - I am glad Mr Edwards is here - to begin to recognise the problems they have caused for the country.  These problems are going to be with us for a long time.  Rather than defend themselves and say they have done nothing wrong they must stand up to the challenge and say:  "Yes, we did", but together we will begin to address the problem.  That they systematically sat down and ensured that they created the genocide of the African in this country.  Their policy was to educate an African up to Std 2, so that they could count up to 12 and then to go to the farms to count their dozens of eggs.

That is the problem we are facing, that we now have to undo.  It will not help much to point fingers.  We have to acknowledge that there is a problem.  We need to start there, to acknowledge that there is a problem and get together.  There is a new reggae song, I forget who sings it, I like so much, that goes this way, "We belong together", and indeed we belong together.

AN HON MEMBER:  Luckily you did not start singing.

MR B H CELE:  We belong together.  I am not going to start singing, Minister.  [LAUGHTER]  We belonged together then, we belong together now, and we together belong to the future.  That is why there is nothing wrong with Curriculum 2005.  It is a vision, it is a good idea, and if we do follow it, it will definitely take us somewhere.

Indeed, it is [we want money], as you say, Mrs Mkhize, money, if it were there I am sure, it would be doing better things for us.  We know how money has been wasted, hence the R40 billion to service the foreign debt and the local debt.  Can you imagine if that big slice called R40 billion was given to the social services where we would be today?

AN HON MEMBER:  It was less than half four years ago.

MR B H CELE:  It does not matter.  If you were just not there you should keep quiet and bury your head in shame.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR B H CELE:  I am.  You have created the generation that is trying to fight the poverty of 45 years when you were busy there, and even today you still defend that.  You are not brave enough to stand up and say:  "Yes, we did wrong things".  That is what you should be saying.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MR B H CELE:  Figures have been mentioned here, so I am not going to deal with figures.  But there is one area of figures I would like to deal with.  The next time people talk about the underfunding, sometimes gross underfunding, I would like to hear the exact figures.  Yes, there are figures here.  Amounts have been suggested but it is an amount that we think we have been underfunded with.  It should be the exact figures of what we are supposed to be getting and how underfunded we are.  We are told that we are ,8% away from the proper funding of the Province.  That is what we are saying.  What I am saying and I am not going to argue much, but the next time they must have the real figures.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR B H CELE:  Ja, it must be real figures, next time when we argue the point.

AN HON MEMBER:  Mrs Millin will not understand those figures.

MR B H CELE:  Well, I do not know, Mrs Millin will be busy praying tomorrow.  Maybe we need to send her to do the research to get the figures.  That is what we need to do.  We are not far from the truth and indeed we all agree that there is not enough money, nobody denies that.  I do not want to be a young Brazilian boy, who died in the bush during the war, because he did not want to use the slice of bread in his hands because he wanted the loaf.  I do not think we are going to fall in the same trap.

If it is a slice let us use the slice of bread properly, and ensure that we cut it accordingly, because it is no use to invite people to come and share a loaf if you know exactly that you have got only a slice of bread.  Use the slice of bread properly and then you can go and fight for the loaf.  When you sit on the Portfolio of Education, you can see the gaps.  The Minister will have to take that on board.  You can see the gaps where things could have been done better.  Locum teachers.  Nobody tells you how much money goes towards them, and nobody tells you about the system that is used to pay them.

For instance, at a school in isiUmbogintwini a matric pupil without a certificate taught for one month and she received R5 000.  How many others, because it is not in the system, are abusing the situation.  Those are the gaps we need to close.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR B H CELE:  If Ntombela can just learn, other things are serious, Baba Ntombela.  If you begin to close those gaps and together with the hon Minister, the Chairperson of the Portfolio and the officials sit down and find these gaps.  We agree, money is not enough, but there are gaps that we need to close.  There are gaps in the system.

AN HON MEMBER:  Big ones.

MR B H CELE:  I do not know.

AN HON MEMBER:  You must come to the Portfolio Committee.

MR B H CELE:  In the Portfolio Committee definitely.  For instance, we do not know how many teachers we are paying at this point.  We have been asking for the figures.  These figures vary between 82, 75, 100.  We do not know.  Which means the money allocated is not very much lower.  Even the personnel expenditure varies between 96, 94 and 95, sometimes it was 105%.  So these figures need to be fixed and known so that we can close the gaps, cutting from exactly the slice that we have.  It will help all of us, not only the Minister, but the Province of KwaZulu-Natal if we begin to deal with our own affairs in a much more effective manner.

Before I am instructed by Baba Mohlomi that my time is up.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member, you still have time.  Continue.

MR B H CELE:  Thanks very much, Madam Chair.  The unions are part of us.  They are here to stay.  We will have to learn to live and let live.

AN HON MEMBER:  Whether they are SADTU.

MR B H CELE:  Whether they are SADTU, they are NATU, APEC, all of them, and all of them have been engaged in this process.  All of them have been engaged in the industrial activities, including NATU.  I do not understand why the people do not mention that, there is selective dealing with matters, that makes people run away from the facts.  It gives you the wrong solution to deal with and correct the problems.  When we begin to look at things and accept that there is a problem then we will find a proper solution.  If you run around and say you do not have a problem you are not going to find the solution.  We were elected for one, and one reason only, and that is to find solutions for this Province.

Some members here, especially on that side, should be in Cape Town debating the national issues.  They dwell so much on the national issues, to such an extent that they miss the time of dealing with provincial matters for  which they are elected.  Maybe it is high time that you go to Cape Town and we can find other people to come here and deal with the interests of the Province.  You do not have to spend your time debating national issues while you are here in the Province.  But the education in the long run will be corrected.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!

MR B H CELE:  We have to take that vision that has been given to us and work on that vision, because the curriculum, I do not care what you say about it, it gives a child a chance.  This child has a chance not to be useless after spending 10 years at school.  Our education has been designed in such a manner that you go to school, you pass your so-called matric and then you are useless because you have majored in Biblical studies.  If you have majored in Biblical studies I do not know where you are going to work.  Curriculum 2005 tells you that you receive Biblical studies on Sundays, every Sunday.  At school we need to be educated in mathematics, things that will provide us with a livelihood after we have completed school.  Not to study history that teaches us that the Wright brothers invented the aeroplane.  What am I going to do about that?  It must teach me how to design the aeroplane.  What I want to know is how to design, and not who invented it.  So what?  Who invented the car that I am driving.  I must learn how to design it myself, and so what if Ford invented the car.  Education must equip our children to begin to design the cars, to improve their lives, and not only to recite who invented the telephone.  The Bell brothers invented the telephone, yet they cannot fix a telephone if it does not ring in the house.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR B H CELE:  I agree.  I agree, but we need people to repair the telephones if they are broken, rather than to recite that the Bell Brothers invented the telephone or whoever.

AN HON MEMBER:  You learnt well.

MR B H CELE:  That is right.  I learnt well but so poorly.  I cannot drive, I cannot pilot an aeroplane that I know so much about, even that the Wright brothers invented it.  You cannot even repair it.  You cannot even repair the car you drive.  That is what Curriculum 2005 needs to correct.  To make our people self-sufficient when they leave school.  It is a vision and we will have to strive towards and ensure that it succeeds so that our children 10 years, 15 years down the line, it might be take long, but it is the right thing to do.  It is better that we work towards that.

In conclusion, hon Mr Minister, we understand that you are working under very trying conditions but it is not only you.  Did you say my time is up?  I understand, but I want you to understand one thing.  We are not here to criticise and to preside over your demise.  We are here to ensure that at the end of the day we succeed.  If we succeed the people of this Province will succeed.  If we criticise you as a Minister, it must be constructive, and we are working towards constructive criticism.  That is why I was worried when the hon member Mr Gwala criticised everybody and called for crossfire and all those kinds of things.  That is creating enemies for the Minister, instead of creating people that will work with the Minister.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon member, wrap up.

MR B H CELE:  Rest assured that in spite of all the shortcomings, we are still there to make sure that you succeed, because this Province will succeed if you succeed.  That will be to the benefit of us all.  We need to get out of the quagmire that some people have planned, that at a certain given point we will have to be in these dark ages of time, and make sure that our education remains long after our liberation, still in the dark ages that was planned for us to be in.  So with all the songs and the rigmarole we have had and all that kind of thing, rest assured, especially in the Portfolio Committee, we will be there to make sure that we take everybody on board.  Together we shall go across.  I thank you, Chairperson.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I wish now to call on the hon Minister to make his comments.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Madam Chair, thank you.  Members, first of all, I want to thank you for your contributions.  Some of the contributions one would refer to as fair criticism, some contributions, of course, seem to lack the grasp of the problems that we are faced with.  Of course, other contributions were just sheer fun.  They provided fun for the whole debate which I think is healthy.

I am the first person to say that we are not dealing with a perfect Department.  We are dealing with a Department that can still be criticised and people have a right to criticise certain things in the Department.  There are things that can be criticised.  We are the first Department that wants to improve on its performance, and some of the aspects have been outlined here.  We want to correct some of the things, but of course one hates to have people just standing up and citing one example of mismanagement that has taken place somewhere or in some school, and tend to generalise that particular item.  Such things do happen and they need to be taken care of.

You do know that now and again you do come across some tardy officials out there that open us to such criticism.  Such issues should be pointed out, but not in a manner to get some kind of political gain out of.  We accept the criticisms, and we think a lot of it is fair.

There is one other thing that people should understand.  The country is in the process of transformation.  The country is undergoing transformation under very trying circumstances.  One of the things that we are experiencing is lack of money in the whole country.  There are various reasons, and some of them are legitimate reasons.  But all we are saying here about underfunding is that we think the funding is not fair.  We are not getting our fair share.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  You know, we are not getting our fair share.  We feel a lot could still be done so that we get that little amount that the country has, in a far better way than we are getting at the present moment.

The country is experiencing a lot of difficulties.  I say this even to the people out there, but we think we are not getting a fair share at the present moment.  The FFC, for instance, acknowledge that at the present moment they are not using a proper formula, because they are still working on it.  We feel we need to get our fair share.  That is why we do these comparisons.  We look at ourselves and we look at other provinces and we feel that other provinces have an unfair advantage over us.  That is what we are talking about.

This does not imply we must mismanage the small budget that we have for the Department.  We want this small budget to be properly managed.  So if there are aspects where we are not performing well, the people have a right to point that out.  We are by no means suggesting that because the budget is so small it should be handled in any manner.  It should be properly handled.

There is underfunding.  It is a pity that some people do not see that.  Maybe for grandstanding, they would want to say there is no underfunding.  The truth of the matter is that there is underfunding, and if there are some aspects that are being mismanaged now, we want to take care of that and do something about it.

I want to specially thank the Portfolio Committee Chairperson, Mr Burrows.  He has done a lot towards helping the Department and the Ministry to achieve some of our objectives.  Of course, like any politician, when he gets a chance he will bring up certain issues like you know.  [LAUGHTER]  Throw certain jibes.  He cannot resist the temptation.  That is natural.  Some people do that, but other people say things that perhaps you will just wonder about.  I am grateful to the Chairperson, and I am also grateful to the Portfolio Committee for Education.

Well, it is a pity that many of the meetings of the Portfolio Committee take place on Wednesdays, and I am unable to attend them.  Some of the meetings take place on Mondays or Tuesdays when I attend MINMECs, but they must understand that I do want to attend the Portfolio Committee meetings.  When I have not attended the meetings I have had a valid reason.  I do want to attend these meetings.

I was talking to the Chairman and saying perhaps, those that do not take place on a Wednesday, if there is a chance I will attend those.  I mean I want to.  Some of the issues that are discussed there are political, and therefore I have got to be there.  Sometimes they put my departmental officials in tight spots and they cannot answer certain questions.

Well, there are many things, and I cannot comment on all that the members raised, but I want to say something about the statistics.  People should not speak as if there are no figures.  It is my experience in Government that you have figures, you have working figures.  You never really have a fixed number.  Whether it is the number of teachers, the number of students, it changes through the year.  You work with annual figures.  You also look at what there is in PERSAL.  The question of statistics should not only be used to criticise.  We do have figures that we are dealing with.

There is the question of communication as was pointed out by a number of members, like Mr Bhamjee, Mr Rajbansi and the Chairman himself.  I think we need to improve that.  It is true that some issues could have had different results if we had better communication between the different stakeholders.

It is problematic sometimes when you have mandates that keep on being dished out from the centre.  Statements like every child has a right to a clean secure environment etcetera, etcetera, puts us in a very difficult position.  Once people read that in the Gazette, they come to us expecting that we are going to provide that.  I like the attitude of the National Department when they say provinces can determine certain things depending on the budget, and they say that when they themselves are under pressure.  It makes a lot of sense that we can actually determine the number of our employees depending on the budget.  At the moment we cannot do that because there is no retrenchment tool.

It is a pity because everything points towards retrenchment, and retrenchment has become a hated word.  Rightfully so too.  When people lose their jobs it is bad, it is terrible.  I hate it when people talk like we have simply just wanted to retrench teachers.  We need teachers as a Department.  I have always said that.  When they first suggested that 20 000 were to be retrenched I was the first person to say that we just cannot afford it as a Department.  The retrenchment of teachers is a painful issue, but it has been forced upon us because there has to be these savings, and savings on a number of aspects in our education.  It is ridiculous, because if it continues like this services can really grind to a halt.  It is terrible.  What is happening in education and in health is just not acceptable to the people.  It is just not acceptable.  But we have to manage the budget.

We need to of course work on these issues.  If there are going to be  retrenchments, I agree with the people that we have to communicate this message to the people upfront so that they get to know about it before the chancetakers come in.  The provocateurs come in and make use of the situation.  We need to work on that.

I hate it when the people start lecturing on the quality of education.  Some of us present have been in education for a long time.  We know what quality education is.  Under the present circumstances, it is really difficult.  It is difficult to implement OBE.  It is such a good tool if we just had the means to put it in place.  It is very difficult, but if we had the means to put it into practice I believe it would produce good results.  But because we do not have the means it just cannot work.  For people to come and say there can be quality education under these present budgetary conditions, but we know what quality education is.

For people to say, for instance the hon member Xaba, to say that there is no underfunding, I think the hon member still has to learn some lessons.  Maybe the hon member is talking just for the sake of talking.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  There is underfunding Nkosi.  You just must accept the fact there is underfunding and that we are short of funds.  You just have to look around and get the facts straight.  I heard the hon member Mr Cele, when he said that we have to work together to resolve these issues.  We just have to.

I would appeal for members to check, because some of the problems we are experiencing are a result of some members who tend to support the destructive measures that some teacher unions are engaged in.  If members are responsible they will not encourage these destructive measures.

The question of regions, the members who are criticising the eight regions, and saying that there are only four regions that are really functioning.  It is true that the regions are not functioning at the same level.  That is true.  If you look at what happened in Durban when there was Bantu Education, if you look at what was happening in Pietermaritzburg, and if we are saying we should not do anything in terms of taking education to the people for people to have opinions, and people always travelling to Pietermaritzburg and Durban, there would be no progress.  But these things were negotiated with the teacher unions, with everybody.  Everyone was present when we discussed these issues, and we finally agreed on the eight regions. If they are not functioning properly they really cannot be written off because of the insufficient budget.  If there has to be any rationalisation that will not be progress.

What we are planning to do is to place certain services into certain regions because they have capacity, and place other functions in other regions.  We want to develop these regions gradually so that services get to the people.

These problems are beginning to be realised even at national level.  I was referring to what the National Minister is doing right now, because they are aware of what is happening.

It does not help of course to have people like, let me just refer to the whole media.  Like the hon member Gwala pointed out, we in the IFP are not satisfied at all with the performance of the media.  We just can say that we are making no bones about it.  The media is playing a particular game.  They are not helping the situation, they are just not helping.  The statement by that lady on SAFM, Antjie Samuels.  I thank Mrs Millin who has replied to her statement.  For her to just come out and say that KwaZulu-Natal does not need this amount of the budget, because it has the poorest matric results in the whole country, is something that is not based on facts whatsoever.  It is not for her to come onto the SAFM radio in the morning and say KwaZulu-Natal does not need a big slice because it had the lowest pass rate in the country.  Such people are destructive.  You cannot help but say that such people have a hidden agenda.  They just have a hidden agenda.

It is distressing when you see that the media only concentrates on certain Ministers, particularly when the Ministers of the ANC are doing something, they will follow them, and interview them.  They ask questions in such a manner that it could appear that statements were only made by the ANC, as if the other people were not present.  You know, as if we are not saying anything about some of those issues.  They have to be reminded that people need to know about the views of all the political parties.  Sooner or later people will realise that there is something wrong, if only one party's statements are published by the media and others not.  When other parties are presenting their votes the galleries are empty.

I want to refer to the point that was raised by the hon member Mr Rehman.  This question of the uniforms, we understand that uniform is something that the community has agreed upon.  If the governing body suggest a particular uniform it has to be discussed by the parent bodies.  They will agree upon that particular uniform to be used.  It must be affordable to the whole community.  Constitutionally you cannot stop a child because the child has no uniform.  You cannot stop a child from attending school just because the child does not have a uniform, or because the child is wearing some garb that belongs to his/her religion.  You just cannot do that.  In a public school you cannot do that.  Even in a private school, you really have to satisfy certain things, before you can say a child cannot attend because he or she is not wearing the prescribed uniform.  We agree that the governing bodies have to regulate or monitor what the children are wearing at school, because even in schools where there is no uniform, there has to be an agreement as to what has to be worn.

We are concerned about the teachers in our schools who are just wearing anything.  Sometimes one cannot distinguish, when you visit a school, whether the person is a teacher or a student or is just a tsotsi from the surroundings.  Our children are subjected to some very, very bad influences.  We talk about models and mentors.  If a teacher comes to class in denims and running shoes and in some cases even unwashed.

AN HON MEMBER:  I am glad I am not at school any more.

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  With hair facing in all directions, even in the US where there is no prescribed uniform, a certain standard of decency is required.  A teacher's appearance must portray to the student, to the community that this person is a teacher and this person is responsible.  You must feel that when you look at him or her, you can afford to leave your child with this person.  Parents want that kind of confidence.  We are beginning to find in our schools that until the person is introduced as a teacher you do not think he or she is a teacher.  [LAUGHTER]  You just find a boy dressed anyhow with this new thing called Phuza Face [LAUGHTER] and that person is supposed to be teaching your children.  It is problematic.  It is really problematic.

I do not want to delve into the question of what had happened at former HOD schools.  I only hope that the communication strategies will be improved and we will soon get over these problems, because all we are saying is that we are striving for equity.  A fact, of course, is that these strategies were supposed to have been effected by the year 2000, in terms of the norms and standards that we had drawn up earlier on, but those norms have since been withdrawn.  We now have to take care of issues in terms of the budget that we have, which is why we suddenly have to implement these measures.  We understand that people are waiting, all the redeployments and everything, these measures were supposed to have gradually been implemented until the year 2000, but now the budget is with us.  We have to effect these measures and therefore they have suddenly been implemented.  All that we are asking for is equity.  We agree of course that some of the things have not been properly communicated, but the fact of the matter is that they have to be implemented.

There were comments about crossfire.  I do not think that is encouraging.  It clashes as such.  I guess what the hon member was saying, that some of the placards that were carried by the teachers in Durban, were not talking about education.  I warned them on that particular day that this was not the way to protest.  People have a right to protest, but they do not have to be personal about it.  If I could quote some of the placards that were there, they were attacking me as a person.  They were not talking about education, and we cannot stand that.  I am sure the hon member was talking about insults and I understand the sentiments that were put across by the hon member, Mr Cele, but I guess the whole issue was in that fashion.

I appreciate the remarks that were made by the hon member Mr Mkhwanazi, that the Minister both at national and at provincial cannot be Nyoni Nyanamasi.  We cannot just produce milk.  We are under stress, budgetary stress and the people should not try to play politics about this. 

Hon member Mrs Downs, maybe words are understood by people in different ways.  Really we did not mean to put across that kind of connotation.  The special children are very special to us.  All we are saying is that really we are labouring under such tough conditions and there is very little that we can do for these children, but the words that were used maybe conveyed a different message to you.  We are very sorry about that.  We did not want it to have that connotation.  They are very important to us and we want to do everything possible for them.

As far as sport is concerned, we want to do everything to our best.  I am not aware of the budget that was redirected, but that could be so.  As far as I know, the most secure budgets were sports and arts and recreation.  Those were set aside.  There were suggestions to redirect them, but finally they were not redirected.

With arts and culture, for instance, we are investigating certain issues.  We have taken steps to control the issues ourselves, because we think things are not properly controlled.  We have to control State money, and therefore we have taken steps to control the situation.  We want to establish a new arts and culture council to control the matters in the arts and culture.

Madam Chair, I cannot finish everything.  If I have not referred to what an hon member has said, it is not because they have not contributed.  I was just referring to certain issues.  Some of the issues have been repeated.  Therefore, members, I am very grateful for your contributions.  Lastly, I also want to congratulate and thank my staff, members of the Department, Dr Jarvis, Mr Shamase, Mr Nkosi and the Finance Director Mr Kunene and Mr Sole, and all the people who were involved, even the people from the Language Department who translated the speeches into the different languages.  I thank them very much.  Thank you everybody.  I hope that perhaps during this financial year things might be better than during last year, in terms of controlling the budget, but not in terms of improving the standard of education.  Forget that.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

DR V T ZULU: (Minister of Education and Culture):  Not under the present budget.  This one is just terrible.  So, ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much.  We made representations even this morning to the Cabinet Committee, and we have found more issues as they are obtaining now in the education budget and in the health budget, are just bad.  So really, some representations have to be made to the National Government, otherwise this is not the kind of education we want.  Something has to be done.  Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon members, this now concludes the debate on vote 5 of Education and Culture, and I will report progress and ask for leave to sit again. The House is going to resume with the business of the day.  The Deputy Speaker will come in for the necessary announcements.  Thank you very much.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED AT 18:55
	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED AT 18:56

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I will request the hon member, the Chairperson of committees to kindly report on the Committee Stage.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We have converted the House from the Committee Stage.  I want to report progress and ask for leave to sit again tomorrow to continue with the Committee Stage.  I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon lady.  Thank you very much.  I am aware that some hon members are starting to remind me of certain matters of national importance, but nonetheless, there are matters of chamber importance as well.  This afternoon when the House resumed, there were two outstanding questions that were unanswered by Ministers.  I have been instructed by the Speaker to ensure that before this House adjourns tonight, these two questions have to be answered because he did notice that the relevant Ministers were present.  I will now therefore call upon Minister Mkhize, who has been informed of this arrangement, to reply to question No 61.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker, sir.  Let me just first start by apologising for not being in the House at the time that we were required to be.  I must point out that we had an urgent meeting which was held to take forward the peace process.  This meeting was convened by the Premier, and therefore it was not possible to be here in time.  I therefore want to really apologise and indicate that the replies were ready, even at that stage, but because I was not able to be here they could not be answered.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS APPEAR IN THE IVORY PAGES IN A SEPARATE VOLUME.
THE ANSWERS GIVEN TO QUESTION NO 61 and 62 HAVE BEEN EXTRACTED AND APPEAR IN THE VOLUME CONTAINING THE QUESTIONS. 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Minister.  I am glad that we could get rid of this, although the hon member is not here, but I think when the Speaker made this ruling it was on the assumption that members will be here until the close of business today.  I, however, hope that he will be informed with regard to his questions.

I now wish to call upon the Premier to indicate whether he has any reports to make.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to congratulate the Department of Education, Ndabezitha Dr V T Zulu, the Minister, for delivering the budget speech and report today.  The officials and the Minister need to be congratulated, because they had one of the toughest assignments in this Province.  Education, health, poverty and crime are issues over which we should have a multiparty consensus in addressing.  No single party here can do it alone.  They are very deep seated issues, issues that refer to our history, results of past backlogs and so on, but we have to be pro-active and work together.  So thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Premier.  That brings us the close of today's business and possibly gives us a chance for some other matters of importance.  The House stands adjourned until tomorrow at 2 o'clock.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 19:05 UNTIL
	14:00 ON THURSDAY, 21 MAY 1998

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FIFTH SESSION
	SECOND SITTING - SEVENTH SITTING DAY
	THURSDAY, 21 MAY 1998

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:05 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

There is none.

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

There is no announcement, save to say that the Speaker is presently involved with some other work and is therefore not with us in the House.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER

Mr Minister?

AN HON MINISTER:  No announcement, Mr Speaker, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  No announcements.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

Mr Volker?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, first of all, I notice that there are certain strange objects here on my desk.  I would like to table those for the Speaker, Mr Speaker.  [LAUGHTER]

Mr Speaker, having tabled these strangely foiled objects, I would like to table the report and resolutions of the Provincial Public Accounts Committee for the period of 1 January 1998 to 30 April 1998, and I trust that this will be placed on the agenda for discussion later during this sitting.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Volker, for the tabling of the report.  Dr Mtalane?

DR L J T MTALANE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I wish to table the Health Portfolio Committee report, 1997/1998.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Doctor.  I sense that there is a report that has to be tabled.  Mr Minister.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you.  Sorry, Mr Speaker, I would like to table the Health Annual Report.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Any further reports?  No further tabling of reports or papers.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

Dr Sutcliffe?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, hon Speaker.  I would like to move on the next sitting day of this House:

	NOTING:

	That the MEC for Health has increased our ratio of condoms from one in 1997 to five in 1998;

	FURTHER NOTING:	

	That particularly for those members who are married, the public might wonder why condoms were issued to all members of this House, irrespective of marital status, age, religious conviction and the like.

	RESOLVES:

	To request the hon Minister to provide all members with a manual on how to use these condoms; and  [LAUGHTER]

	to request that the hon Minister monitor how these condoms are utilised by members to ensure the dignity of the House is not called into question.

Thank you.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I have listened to motions.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, a point of order please.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we allow the Chief Whip to have his point of order?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on a point of order, I would like to know whether it is in order in this House for the hon Minister to actually encourage all members in their vices.  First of all, cards and gambling.  [LAUGHTER]  Mr Speaker, I will not even mention the other vice, but there is an example of it here.  Not only that, it gets worse, Mr Speaker.  He has invited us to a cocktail party where the demon booze will also be present.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Meer?

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, the last point of order should be ruled out of order, because he forgets there is a privilege of this House, and within that privilege all these things are applicable, whether it is a condom, or whether it is a pack of cards.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I have a different motion from that last one.  Mr Hamilton, do you have a different motion?

MR A J HAMILTON:  Yes, I do.  I do have a different one.  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice on the next sitting day of this House I shall move as follows:

	That this House believes that only by striving to achieve vigorous and sustained economic and infrastructural growth and development, will KwaZulu-Natal and South Africa as a whole be able to meet its objective of transformation and nation-building.

Thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Hamilton.  Mrs Cronje?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I hereby give notice that I shall move the following motion in this hon House:

	NOTING:

	The historically significant results of a bye-election held yesterday in Bloekombos in the Western Cape where the results were as follows:

	ANC 1 502 votes, with 97,2% of votes cast; NP 22 votes; I will repeat 	that, 22 votes, with 2,8% of votes cast.

	THIS HOUSE THEREFORE CALLS ON THE NATIONAL PARTY, to fulfil their destiny now, to die and to disappear off the face of South African politics forever.

I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mrs Galea.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I give notice that on the next sitting day I will move as follows:

	That this House:

	Noting that there appears to be a vast number of voters who do not have the Bar Code in their Identity Book, and that the application for the new ID would take two to three months.

	Noting that the Department of Home Affairs of our Province has requested R3 768 040 for requirements for Mobile units for Election 1999 ID Project, and that to date there has been no response.

	Therefore calls upon this House to put pressure on the National Parliament to expedite the request for funding to enable people to use their democratic right to vote.

I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Galea.  Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I will move on the next sitting day:

	That this House:

	Recognising:

	1.	The responsible and vital role of its members both individually and within the various structures of the KZN Parliament;

	2.	The importance of clear distinctions between the role played by individuals, political parties, structures of Parliament and the Provincial Cabinet;

	3.	The need to make the most effective use of the available time and Parliament's human and financial resources; and

	4.	The scope for NCOP and MINMEC in order to put the KZN case for an equitable share of finances and resources.

	5.	The need to expand public interest and participation in the Legislature's activities.

	THEREFORE CALLS ON THIS HOUSE:

	(a)	To form a small multi-party committee to restructure the Parliamentary calendar to make better use of members time and expertise;

	(b)	Ensure that one Parliamentary official is responsible for formal communications to and from the Executive by the Legislature and Portfolio Committees;

	(c)	To make the fullest possible use of the NCOP and MINMEC meetings to put the case of KwaZulu-Natal's fiscal, material and human resource needs;

	(d)	Ensure that an agreed guide to relations between the Legislature and the Executive is completed as soon as possible;

	(e)	Immediately proceed to compile a policy initiative on public access to the KwaZulu-Natal Parliament and to place it before the Executive Board.

I will move.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  Mr Gcabashe.

MR S J GCABASHE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to move a motion.  I hereby give notice that I shall move the following motion in this hon House:
		
	This House noting that:

	
	1.	1998 marks the centenary year of the birth of the stalwart of the liberation struggle, Chief Albert Luthuli;

	2.	Albert Luthuli was the first winner of the Nobel Peace Prize in Africa in recognition of his heroic role and leadership in uniting our people, and his tireless and peaceful struggle for liberation;  and

	Further noting the successful celebration of the Luthuli Centenary as highlighted by the multiparty co-operation when the Freedom of the Town of KwaDukuza was conferred on him posthumously.

	Therefore resolves to commit ourselves:

	1.	to uphold the spirit of unity of all the people of this Province and the new patriotism in South Africa;  and

	2.	to commit ourselves to the eradication of political intolerance, the promotion of a human rights culture in the Province; and the creation of lasting peace, so that 1998 also becomes THE YEAR OF PEACE IN KWAZULU-NATAL, as a fitting tribute to the memory of the great hero and the son of Africa.

Thanks, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Gcabashe.  There does not seem to be any further notices of motions.  That concludes our point 7 on the Order Paper.  

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

I therefore propose that we convert this House into a Committee of Supply.  I will leave the chair and the Deputy Chairperson of Committees will take over.  The House is converted into a Committee of Supply.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE.  MR T S MOHLOMI THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES TAKES THE CHAIR

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1998

VOTE 7:  THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are now going to debate vote 7, the Department of Health, and I wish to call upon the hon Minister of Health, Dr Zweli Mkhize, to address the House.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  May I start by just expressing my appreciation towards the members who raised some motions just before this House was converted into a Committee, and say that the purpose of the supplies was twofold.

Firstly, it is to raise the awareness of the seriousness of the disease.  Secondly, it is to assist as a preventative measure in case any of the members require it.  There is an expression in medicine which says a gumma remains a gumma, even if it is in a Bishop's leg, which then indicates that we do not question the morality of any of the activities that people engage in, but we will do everything to prevent the problems that they might encounter.  One of the big problems about the spread of HIV and AIDS is the migrancy factor.  The migrant workers are at risk and amongst the group of migrant workers who are at risk are the politicians.

Ladies and Gentlemen, hon members, the cards that are there, I suppose they can be used for any sort of vice, but in Zulu it says Kibanjwa kwezinudlayo, so that those who actually use the cards more frequently will actually get an (Aids Awareness) message in that.  In so far as the cocktail and the booze aspect is concerned, I believe the Minister of Transport assisted us two days ago by supplying the measurement tool, which will actually make sure that the members can monitor their imbibition, but also the alcohol content of whatever they consume.  So I think from that point of view, we just want to make sure that the welfare of this House is kept uppermost.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Extras are available.  [LAUGHTER]

Mr Chairman, hon members of this House, members of the media, the public gallery.  In view of the financial problems that have been highlighted in the recent months, it might seem strange for me to say to you that it is indeed a pleasure to introduce to you today the Health budget for 1998.

As has always been the case, the budget is not generous, perhaps not even adequate for that matter, but I believe I can tell you without any shadow of doubt that the news is good, much better than anyone might expect.  It is all a question of how we look at the situation and I for one, refuse to be scared to death.

I say this in the light of the question, and I quote, "Are we Scaring Ourselves to Death?", which is the title of a new book published by Los Angeles lawyer, H Aaron Cohl.  The subtitle is, and I quote, "How pessimism, paranoia and a misguided media are leading us towards disaster".  This might be a little too sweeping a statement, but nevertheless, there is some truth in both the question and the statement, and I would like to take cognisance of this in the KwaZulu-Natal context.

First, however, I would like to explain the significance of the small champagne glass in front of you.  Let us look at it in two ways.

Firstly, let us take the standard, modern, cynical approach.  It is a gimmick, a cost incurred that could have been saved.  It is virtually worthless in terms of usefulness.  It has nothing to do with health.  It is a cheap token to try and grab attention and detract from the bad things that are happening in health care.

Secondly, Mr Chairman, let us take a more positive look.  The champagne glass represents a celebration and there is much we have to be happy about.  It is filled with dried fruit and nuts, good health food.  It is a gesture of goodwill, Mr Chairman.  It is a gift, maybe not a lavish one perhaps, but a gift nevertheless.  It is a token that is a little different and will allow us to focus on the good things that are happening in health care.  What we have to do above all else is to focus on the R4,464 billion that we have got and not only on the R621 million that we do not have.

We can view the situation from many perspectives in life, but whether we see them from a negative or positive perspective is almost entirely up to us.  Cohl points out in his book that many people are scared to death of pesticides, exhaust emissions, mad cow disease, ultraviolet rays, cholesterol, but the fact of the matter is that we have never been healthier or safer.  In fact, we live almost 250% longer than we did in the year 1900.

Mad cow disease is a classic example of something that is pure hype.  The possibility of getting mad cow disease is 1 in 60 million.  Certainly any chance indicates possibility, but one has to question whether the attention, and by and large the very alarmist attention, that has been given to this possibility, is justifiable.  The chances of a person choking to death on a piece of meat is thousands of times greater than that.  So, Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, have a steak and just chew it carefully.

Before the media go off in a sulk and ignore my speech completely, I might add that, of course, in KwaZulu-Natal the health authorities have enjoyed wonderful support from our media in general, and that the health reporting in this Province is of a very high standard.  I trust that you will remain the exception, rather than the rule.  This is because you do have a huge influence on how people feel, on the optimism and pessimism levels of the society.

In fact, the mainstream provincial media based in Durban have embarked on a project to supply the Department of Health with a Mobile Eye Clinic, which will provide a wonderful and much needed service in the rural and peri-urban areas.  This is indeed a laudable gesture and one which I believe indicates that the health issues affect the whole society.  As a Government Department in a democracy, we must expect the criticism and scrutiny of the media without rancour, but we do have a joint responsibility to create a climate of hope, the essential kindling of democratic success, amongst our people.

Hon members, ladies and gentlemen, this does not mean we must ignore the reality of those things around us that cause pain, suffering and despair.  Being an optimist does not mean being blinkered or unrealistic.  It merely means that we look to the positive things in life to gain the will to fight another day.  The only power of despair and negativity is destructive and that is no strength at all.

I will therefore concentrate on the successes achieved and successes to come.  I believe that by doing so I might just be able to make a small contribution towards turning the corner from pessimism and paranoia, towards optimism and hope.  Let us tell them how good things really are because, in KwaZulu-Natal, there is no need to be scared to death.

OVERVIEW

OVERSPENDING, BUDGET SHORTFALLS AND FINANCE

Finance

Finance has to be topic number one in view of the publicity that has surrounded this subject in recent months.  The overall principle that determines health care spending is the equitable access for every citizen.  The second fundamental principle is that in delivering we must do so to the very highest possible levels.  This is variable as many factors come into the equation.

Money is item number one and the levels of funding will determine the levels of service.  Inheritance of past problems and inadequacies is another.  Maintaining certain facilities to a certain level, so as to ensure that we can adapt to changing disease patterns or patient needs in the future, is yet another factor that enters this equation.  The disease profiles that we face today will be different from what we will face in another 20 years.  It is a tough balancing act to perform and factors beyond managerial control, such as certain personnel matters, also contribute to how effectively we can spend each Rand.

In a nutshell, these are the factors we have to consider when drawing up a budget.  Ideally a health department such as ours should be financed on a split of a 60% staffing costs and a 40% other costs.  At present the ratio is closer to 72% for staffing and 28% for other costs, and begs the question whether the retrenchments are in fact needed.  The truth is we are already operating at almost 20% less than our allocated post structure, and therefore getting rid of staff would hardly help anyway.  Our staff establishment is around 59 000 and at the moment we have about 8 000 vacancies with 51 000 posts which are occupied.

As far as the question of people having nothing to do because there will not be the equipment or materials for them to do anything with, we have always been innovative and we will always find ways of utilising what skills we have to the best advantage.  I am saying this because this has been raised in the media as one of the things that might be going on in the Department.

Overspending

Another important factor to bring to your attention is the plan of action that is already underway, and installed in various areas, to control spending and meet the demands of good budget control.  I believe that these are worthy of considerable attention and provide positive and concrete proof of our commitment to try and squeeze more than 100 cents out of every Rand.

In a five month period from October 1997 to February 1998 we managed to make a saving in excess of R220 million.  That, Mr Chairman, was at the time when all the departments, in particular Health, Welfare and Education were actually being pointed at as being the departments that were overspending their budget.  One of the ways that we actually did that was to reduce stocks,  changed the management of our stocks in hospitals, and we have worked on limiting overtime payments.  In the case of nursing it was stopped.  With the doctors, a certain amount of discretion was used.  There is also the question of tightening up on the misuse of telephones and the abuse of vehicles.

But I want to say, ladies and gentlemen, hon members, that the reason for health care overspending in KwaZulu-Natal has been almost exclusively, because of the Department of Health's ability to meet the needs of the population on a scale unparalleled in the history of the Province.

Last year visits to clinics and institutions increased almost by 30%.  Child mortality rates have dropped, the new or upgraded clinic facilities, many operating on a part-time basis, are seeing millions of people, and institutions have coped with  increased workloads through sheer dedication and determination of the staff.  In modern parlance, of course our people have done some awesome stuff during the past year.

But, Mr Chairperson, my Ministry and Department finds itself between the rock and the hard place.  Whatever we do we are in trouble.  If we serve the needs of our community we fall foul of the Treasury and the Finance Ministers for the issues of over-expenditure, but if we have to please the Treasury we will incur the wrath of our communities whose services will deteriorate.  But the bottom line is that we must manage what funds we have been given.

Shortfall

The Department of Health has put in place certain administrative and management systems that will allow us to save about half the estimated shortfall of 1998/1999 without impinging on health care delivery.  In this case, a number of steps have been taken.  For example, each hospital or clinic now controls its own budget, and weekly expenditure reviews, from the head office, is taking place.  Therefore the hospitals will also establish their own committees to control their expenditure and make sure that there is money to pay for orders.  We also have a monthly ministerial expenditure review committee, and the head of department and chief director serve on that committee.  They ensure that each and every institution keeps within its estimated cash flow for the month.  In the process we are involved in capacity building to make sure that they are capable of carrying out that kind of control measure.

However, measures that will have to be taken to save the remaining amount will have negative medical or even life-threatening consequences.  These would include the reduction of elective surgery.  If we had money last year to do 100 operations, this year we have less money.  That is basically what that means.  It also will involve increased response times by ambulances, that there will be delays, but this will not affect high emergencies like road traffic accidents and so on, but in other cases they will be, because the ambulance reaction is actually coded.  So some will find that there is much more of a delay.  It will also involve increasing protocol levels.  This will involve some of the sophisticated medical interventions like dialysis and some operations like cardiac bypasses and others.  I am not mentioning these specifically, but I am just giving the principle.  There will also be the issue of the reduction in the number of in-patient beds in some of the institutions.  There will also be a protocol for particular terminal cases.

Whilst I am on that point, I want to dispel the rumour that we are discriminating against HIV positive people and that they will not be treated at the hospitals.  That is not correct, but in fact what we are talking about is a protocol right across the board.

There is a full schedule in your packages, ladies and gentlemen, showing the percentages of cuts at various institutions and for various services.  The cuts in the budget vary.  In some of the institutions it is as low as about 7% to 10%, up to about 18% in others.  In other small facilities it ranges from about 20% to 30%.

You will notice that there are variances and this is because it is impossible to effectively cut services on a simplistic and general scale.  We have consulted, done our homework and tried to cut where there will be the lowest possible impact on the population as a whole.  No one institution has been exempted, no service has received greater preference than another and no subsidy has been cut willy-nilly.  We are all in this together and all areas of delivery will have to make do with less.

We are aware of this particular problem that has been highlighted in the newspapers, affecting a number of hospitals and also the subsidised hospitals like Mariannhill.  Those are matters which we are discussing.  We are specifically looking at hospitals like McCord.  There are a number of other hospitals which are also being discussed.  The issue of the closure of hospitals for example, Northdale, that in fact is not correct.  We do not expect that Mariannhill Hospital will in fact close.  We have no plans of closing any specific hospital, due to the problem of underfunding.

The issue of the closure of hospitals was actually raised two/three years ago when we were discussing a functional regional plan for Durban.  That plan involved hospitals which were too close to one another in the Midlands, that surround Montebello, and Applebosch.  Although that issue is still under discussion, it has not been finalised.  I just want to dispel any notion that we will in fact be closing any single hospital at this stage, due to the financial control problems.

Ladies and gentlemen, somebody is bound to say that money is being wasted because of FRAUD AND CORRUPTION.

We have had investigations in place in Health for some time and we have successfully eliminated huge amounts of fraud.  However, it would be a grave misconception to think that a greater portion of our budget is lost to fraud and corruption.  In fact, one of our biggest problems is the problem of underfunding.  Investigations underway at the moment involve less than R20 million, and this is half a percent of the budget.  We are not saying that it is a small amount, but that is the amount that is being investigated as a result of fraud and corruption.  Assuming that there was fraud, which we do not know of as yet, and is about 10 times this figure, it would still only make up about 5% of the budget.  The shortfall would still not actually balance up with what the figures are for fraud.  So, whilst I am determined to continue with our anti-fraud efforts as vigorously as possible, I do not believe that major amounts of money are being lost due to fraud.

Some great successes in preventing fraud has taken place and in this regard we have been successful in intercepting about R10 million worth of cheques before they could even be fraudulently cashed.  At present almost 200 cases are registered with the South African Police Services for investigation.  The number of prosecutions and dismissals at this stage is fairly low and although this is a bit disappointing, it is because commercial cases take a great deal of time to investigate.  It must be remembered that preventing fraud is a lot more easier and cheaper than prosecuting fraud.  For obvious reasons, I do not want to provide too many details in any open forum, such as this, but we are confident that many of the prosecutions will start soon and will be successfully instituted and carried through to conviction in the near future.

EFFICIENCY

As far as efficiency is concerned, we must concede that things can be done more efficiently.  This is true for any organisation and we are working hard at making the service as cost effective as possible, given the resources we inherited and what we receive now.  However, our statistics show that we are reaching a huge number of people every year, 15 million hospital visits, for instance, for last year, and a visit to any of our out-patient institutions will reveal that we are running a pretty tight ship.  In fact, in many instances, it is only the exceptional efforts of incredibly dedicated health staff that have helped us to achieve these figures.

So let us assume that through expanded efficiencies we can save 10% to 15%, and I believe that would be pushing it a bit, the savings are still not enough.  Without the finance, services will have to be trimmed.  It is interesting to note that we have seen about 30% more people in the past year compared to the previous year.  The budget overrun is in the region of 20%.  Take into account our low allocation figures, and I think you will agree that in terms of performance this overrun is not excessive.

The question of raising funds through the better collection at institutions might also be raised.  At present, Mr Chairman, about R70 million is being collected annually.  We believe that through greater controls that are now being implemented, we can raise this figure to a maximum of R100 to R120 million, given the economic levels of the population we serve.  Here we are looking at a number of things.  One of those would be the revision of the existing tariffs to introduce the admission of private patients, into the public hospitals.  In some cases we will also investigate the utilisation of health management organisations.  We will also be encouraging hospital boards to mobilise goodwill amongst the communities so that this can also generate some funds.  A significant amount, but certainly not something that can address the budget deficit in an significant way, is the amount that we expect to collect from this.  

What we do need to increase efficiencies in this regard is incentives.  At present all funds collected are returned to Treasury.  In many instances, collecting R1 costs more than 100 cents.  What we need to consider is incentive schemes whereby institutions will keep or get a cut of increased revenues, and partnerships with the private sector, for them to utilise excess space or capacity at our institutions and mechanisms for community volunteer programmes, that will allow communities to take part in service delivery, maintenance and upgrading of projects.

I must also just point out, that some people feel that the question of free health care in the clinics is actually becoming a bit of a problem.  I want to point out that free health care was in fact going to be started, even if it was not the policy from national.  We looked at the studies that were done under the KwaZulu Government where it indicated that the amount of criminal activity that was going on, where the sisters were actually being attacked because of the funds collected, that the cost to bring about security and other collection methods would in fact have been more expensive than the amount of money that was collected.  On that basis we still believe that for purposes of access, and for purposes of equity, we will keep the free health service at the clinics.  We will be introducing, with time, what we call a clinic bypass fee, so that if you attend your clinic or go to a hospital you will be charged.  Therefore, I want to just ease the minds of any of the people who believe that there will be significant funds collected at the clinics, but we believe that we are still not collecting optimally within the hospitals and we therefore think that we will at that level make sure that there will be a lot more revenue that will be generated at that level.

There has been a budget reduction this year of about 6,1% of last year's actual expenditure of the Province, which is in real terms for KwaZulu-Natal, whilst the next lowest province has only received about a 2,7% cut.  Our budget has been cut worse if you compare it to the budget expenditures of all the provinces.  If you look at the whole Department of Health, there is a decrease in the budget of 0,8%.  Therefore if we were to compare budget to budget, it does become misleading, because of the previous underfunding, because whatever we get, you really need to have actually had the corrections of the previous years of underfunding to get to what you would consider to be equitable for this Province.

Indeed, some allocations have increased and over the next five years the gap between the poorer provinces and the more well allocated ones will grow larger and not smaller.  You will see that if you look at the MTEF formula that has been provided in your documents.  This will have to be addressed in this House, the public of this Province and the staff of KwaZulu-Natal Health Department can also be assured that the case for additional funding and improved working conditions is, and will continue to be, consistently advocated at the highest national levels.

This brings me to the issue of the COMMISSION OF ENQUIRY, which closed late last year after a final investigation at Edendale Hospital.  This exercise has been of inestimable value to the Province, in that it managed to diffuse tensions, reduce labour conflicts and helped us to identify areas of conflict, inefficiency and corruption.

Without its contribution we would not be in a position to manage the constraints we face today, and at a cost of R4,895 million I believe it has been well worthwhile.

In fact, the success of the LABOUR RELATIONS in dealing with disciplinary and grievance issues, which is fundamental to creating a suitable working environment, is illustrated by the figures that show of more than 1 600 cases of disciplinary cases outstanding at the start of the year, only 11 remain unresolved today.  Ninety percent of all the grievance cases have been dealt with.  Creating the kind of atmosphere where caring, compassion, dedication to duty and disciplined service delivery can take place relies heavily on good labour relations.  This in turn, allows for higher levels of productivity and cost effectiveness.

Capacity building and conflict resolution training is being conducted by a court, and this has actually improved the participation of organised labour in the joint processes with the management.  Workplace forums are being established in all the institutions, and therefore we believe that the number of strikes and conflicts will no longer lead to the neglect of patients.  At the moment we have actually got a signed agreement with the unions for the transfer of staff during the period of rationalisation.

COST EFFECTIVENESS

Mr Chairman, that brings me to the issue of cost effectiveness.  Some idea of the cost effectiveness of this service delivery can be gained from considering that the average cost per bed per day was R358.  The average cost per patient per day was R421, which includes out-patients, the average per clinic attendance is actually low at R27 and at a community health centre is R46.  Vaccinations which have been given, amount to about 1,7 million, and 15 million laboratory tests have been done.  A copy of a media release listing these figures is in your package.

Productivity is measured largely by what we deliver at our INSTITUTIONS, and we have here achieved high levels of productivity in the past year.  Health care delivery on the basis of equity has taken great strides in the past four years, but this has created pressures on institutions as they have been opened up to a far greater population base.

Our institutions have coped with incredible increases and we are reaching an astonishingly high percentage of people that have never had health care before.  Our annual in-patient days amounted to 6,3 million, and out-patients to about 5,4 million patients seen.  There were some 15 million hospital visits, as I have indicated, and clinic attendances have amounted to in fact 13,9 million, and there were almost 200 000 operations.

The other achievement which we are very proud of is Addington Hospital which achieved the distinction of being the first public hospital in South Africa to gain accreditation from the Council of Health Services Accreditation of South Africa.  A fine achievement indeed.

Considerable progress has been made in the computerisation of hospitals and the total installation base in Health is now about 2 067 computers and terminals with 1 501 printers.  This becomes quite important in improving efficiency, because this together with decentralisation of the procurement processes reduces what was before a delay in orders and payments for orders, about three to four months, sometimes up to six months.  It has been brought down to a number of weeks, no more than 14 days.  So that in fact helps with the efficiency of the institutions, because in the past some of the problems with the lack of medicine had been as a result of some of the suppliers who felt that the payments were taking too long to be made, and therefore because of the delays in payment we had those types of problems which have now been solved by computerisation.

The European Union donated 19 desktop personal computers, 19 laser printers and 11 notebooks to be used in the District Health System.  Two software training centres have trained 447 people, 485 have had PERSAL training and 48 hospitals are now linked on data lines.

However, rationalisation of services has to take place and has to take place fast.  Just to give an example here.  In the Durban functional regions we have to look at those hospitals as a unit.  At the present we have reduced the hospital beds in King Edward by about 200.  We have moved some of those beds to other hospitals.  As soon as the new Durban Academic Hospital is complete, some of the beds at King Edward will be reduced and ultimately King Edward will be degraded to about a thousand bed hospital which is half of its current size.  Therefore the redistribution of beds has actually started.  The programme of updating King Edward will take about eight years, depending on the funding, but at the end of the day the appearance of the hospital will ultimately be much better than what it is now.  In addition, we want to enforce the question of referrals.  Nobody is just to wake up and walk straight to King Edward Hospital for  Panado tablets.  Patients must be referred to the hospital.  In Pietermaritzburg in the hospitals, Northdale, Grey's and Edendale, Northdale Hospital will actually have district hospital beds.  These beds are needed in this particular area, but the patients will receive treatment at a lower cost.  In addition, we will have some additional beds for patients who are actually still recovering.

In addition, Edendale will get some district beds, as well as regional beds.  Grey's Hospital will house regional beds and  act as a provincial tertiary institution which will deal with patients from most of the Midlands and some parts of ~Ulundi~, Nongoma and some from the south.  King Edward and Wentworth, and the complex in Durban will eventually take care of some of the patients from the Eastern Cape.  The funding thereof will actually be controlled at national level.

At Ngwelezana hospital that has already taken place.  The maternity and children's unit has already moved to the Lower Umfolozi War Memorial Hospital.  We are utilising whatever space we have available, instead of keeping the mothers with their babies under leaking roofs.  In Newcastle, Madadeni, the process will also be following.

The reality of the rationalisation has never been kept a secret and the process begun is ongoing.  Although we would like the process to be accelerated, because without rationalisation we will be forced to overspend, which is what we want to avoid for this year.

Consultation does take place over a broad and representative spectrum, but we cannot, and will not, accommodate those who might remain in the ~Apartheid~ mind-set and who seem to instinctively criticise any rationalisation move as having a negative impact on a certain community.  We must serve the whole community to the best of our ability, regardless of whom they are, and on the basis of going where the need is the greatest.

An example of this is the AMBULANCE AND EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICES, which is still one of the best services in the world and one in which people and equipment are pushing the extreme limits of efficiencies.  One shudders to think what we would have done without their services at the horrible crisis situations during the course of last year, such as the bus disaster which occurred in Stanger that the members referred to, and the recent tragedy that actually took place in Newcastle that the members have referred to.

Ambulances responded to 450 000 calls last year, and travelled 21 500 000 kilometres, which is the equivalent of something like driving twice around the world every day.  The fact that we run many of our vehicles for as much as 400 000 kilometres makes the average all inclusive cost per kilometre of about R6,80, and this includes all the medication and treatment, and really we believe this is quite a remarkable achievement.  We will therefore have to cut back on non-emergency work to try and help maintain the high standards that this service has achieved.

AN HON MEMBER:  There is one of your ambulances going past.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Of course that is another one on the road.  Mr Chairman, yet another example of providing great delivery are our CLINICS which are achieving astounding results, and there are some quite amazing changes in infant mortality rates, as I have said, and other successes.  You will have seen the various reports during the year of clinics that are not fully utilised, clinics that are not fully staffed or clinics that are not operating to their capacity.  This is true.  However, new clinics are seeing 123 000 people each month, 82% of those people, Mr Chairman, have never had any formal access to the health services in their area before.  Child attendances are up by 37% to over 2 million.  Imagine what we would achieve if we could address the estimated backlog of the 300 clinics that this Province still requires.  All new and upgraded clinics, 159 of them, will be fully staffed within the next six months.

I actually want to make a point here, because a number of members have been disturbed to see some of the clinics standing empty.  The reason, members must understand that if we were to keep to our normal allocation we would have only built half the number of clinics that we have actually built at this stage.  We were quite creative in accessing funds which were available to other provinces.  We moved ahead of the queue and we built the number of clinics that would have actually taken us five years to complete.  Therefore I can assure the members that in six months most of the clinics, in fact all will be staffed.  I would not have been able to assure the members of that if we had not taken the money from the other provinces.  In six months we have been able to go and ask for the money, build the clinics and within the next six months they will be functioning.

I want to indicate that it is not a disadvantage that those clinics are standing empty, it is because we moved too fast.  The reason was that we wanted to take advantage of the funds that were available to the other provinces which they could not utilise.  KwaZulu-Natal, out of the 500 clinics that are to be built, 130 of those clinics are actually being built in this Province.  That is an appropriate proportion in terms of what we in this Province actually deserve.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Clinic buildings and equipment are one thing, but the main and most important ingredient in health care delivery remains our STAFF.  This situation at KwaZulu-Natal institutions is by no means favourable with 15,75% vacancies.  Almost 15,7% of medical officer posts are vacant, 17,4% of all nursing posts and 18% of other professional posts.  Bearing in mind what I have told you of our achievements, I am sure you will agree that these are even more commendable considering the staffing situation.

Plans to address the delivery of Primary Health Care in particular have developed, and will include the training of more Community Health Care Workers and the development of this discipline to serve the District Health System.  At present there are about 1 469 Community Health Care Workers, and we plan to double this number to about 3 000.  We are also working to address the shortages of enroled nurses, particularly in the rural areas where the clinic programme is most sorely needed.

The Department of Health did not let many of the people go on the severance package scheme, we were far too short staffed for that.  Altogether 411 people were awarded packages, that was out of more than 2 000 people who had applied, most of whom were close to retirement or in positions where duplication had occurred due to amalgamation.  The criteria used was objective and applied fairly to all applicants.

Whilst on the subject of staff, ladies and gentlemen, I must now mention our very good, but often much maligned, especially by those who have lived a life of privilege in the past, and those are our friends the CUBAN DOCTORS.  We have 62 Cuban doctors working for us at the moment and I am very grateful for their presence here in KwaZulu-Natal.  There are many stories of the success of this programme, but perhaps the Ekhombe story remains the most powerful.  Child mortality rates in a community of 110 000 people has been cut in half, from almost 50 to about 24.  There were only two doctors there for the first two years, but now we have four.

The respect that these people have gained in the community is immense.  A little girl, abandoned at birth, is being cared for at the hospital and the nursing staff have named her Beauty Gonzalez in honour of the Cuban gynaecologist, Dr Abel Gonzalez.  I think that speaks volumes more than any statistics.  These people are an example to us all and great role models for the young people who will begin compulsory public service shortly.

I must also just say that in fact most of the hospitals in the rural areas and small towns do have a lot of assistance from the foreign doctors, that is the hospitals which are ex-KwaZulu, but in particular the hospitals which are in those small towns, and we are really quite appreciative of the contribution from those foreign trained doctors who are in our hospitals.  Of course, as the members have indicated, we also want to appreciate the sentiments that were expressed by the hon Minister for Home Affairs, Dr M G Buthelezi, when we went to Hlabisa where he indicated real appreciation and thanked and praised Dr Zuma for doing everything to bring in the doctors from overseas, in particular Cuba, to staff these hospitals.  He actually made a very strong point which we want to support very strongly.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  That a lot of doctors from this Province who were given funding by the erstwhile KwaZulu Government have not come back to actually pay back some of the funding that they were given, or even to come and work in these institutions.  But this Department is doing a research on those and will be following them.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  At present the training of doctors in this country does not reflect the demographic profile of the population.  We must ensure that when the Cubans return home we have our own South African doctors to replace them.  To do this we do not only need to concentrate on the professional education qualifications, but also on instilling a desire to serve the needy in their country first, the new patriotism that we talk about.

Retention of skills is a priority and various strategies, including accelerated training and the review of subsidies to institutions that do not fully contribute to the availability of the expertise, must be considered.  It also underlines the need for compulsory public service, not only for doctors, but for other professionals as well.  The fact that we have lost thousands of doctors in the past decade, the training of whom the Government subsidised, is unacceptable.  I would urge all South Africans, especially the younger ones, to consider returning and helping us build this new democracy.

In KwaZulu-Natal 114 doctors have graduated on State bursaries since 1994 and 176 are studying under the bursary scheme at present.  Investigation into the number of previous defaulters are being conducted by an auditing firm and 62 cases are under review, amounting to about R2 million.  When these investigations are completed we will then take the appropriate action.  

Providing adequate health services to the outlying areas brings me to the subject of the Red Cross FLYING DOCTORS that will begin a service to the outlying hospitals in the near future, perhaps as early as next month.  General, specialist and paramedic services will be available to outlying hospitals with the idea being to take the skills to the patient rather than transporting the numerous patients long distances at great expense.

This also in turn leads to the issue of the DISTRICT HEALTH SYSTEM.  As you all know, the Department has adopted the District Health Care approach.  Various meetings and workshops have been held locally, nationally, with Local Authorities, community and departmental representatives with a view to establishing the District Health Authorities.  The aim is to get powers and responsibility for health care as close to the people as possible and we will allow the communities to have a meaningful role in health care in their areas.  All Regional Directors have been appointed, District Managers will be in place by the end of this month, and the programme the Department is running will be decentralised within the next three months and the information systems will be in place within six months.  Although this process is ongoing and might not be formally in place on paper, figures already indicate that we are already achieving a great deal of what this system was designed to achieve.

Time, Mr Chairman, does not permit me to go through all of the achievements of the past year in detail today, but I would like to mention a few facts and figures for you to consider.  The CABINET AIDS INITIATIVE was successfully launched in November last year and has led to several other initiatives taking place.  A full list is included in your packages and I am sure you will agree that we have succeeded in our initial aim of raising the awareness on HIV/AIDS to a much higher level than before, and alerting a much wider spectrum of society to the consequences of the pandemic that this will bring.  I would like to thank the Cabinet, the many members of Parliament, of all the parties who have helped in the launching of this campaign and maintaining its momentum, much of which will continue next month when an international congress on the effects of AIDS on children in the society will be held in Pietermaritzburg.

NUTRITION is key to good health and last year some 755 206 learners in 1 497 schools received food assistance.  This year the figure is about 846 000 learners in 2 125 schools.  205 food gardens have been developed, and 2 125 employment opportunities were created in schools and reports indicate that there is improved school attendance, improved concentration levels and a decrease in drop out numbers where the Primary School Nutrition programme is in place.  I want to say on that one, that I want to express my own support for the campaign that has been started by the Department of Agriculture, and that is the ~Xoshindlala~ Campaign, because linked between the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Health is that we are forming a Food Security committee, which will make sure that whatever programmes are taking place, are actually co-ordinated at that level, so that we do not only just look at the fact that the projects are being undertaken, but we can assess the impact of those problems onto the communities and, on the other hand, utilise our health facility to identify areas of need that these projects must actually move towards.

Another programme that has made great strides is the MALARIA control programme, where a joint project between Mozambique, Swaziland and KwaZulu-Natal is taking place to address the problem of this disease as part of the Lebombo development initiative in this area.  KwaZulu-Natal is taking a lead there.  The fact that KwaZulu-Natal is taking a lead in this case is indicated by the fact that last year out of 11 000 cases of malaria we have had 38 deaths, which I must say, ladies and gentlemen again, is quite a tremendous achievement considering that at the boundary we are not only treating South Africans, but people just walk in and out of KwaZulu-Natal and get treated there, which is why we believe that it is important to deal with this as an inter-regional programme.

COMMUNICATION, TRANSPARENCY AND CO-OPERATION are the key items in a democracy, and the Department has maintained a high level of contact and consultation throughout the year.  This is true not only in the field of labour and employee organisations, but also with respect to academic institutions, such as Universities, Technikons, NGOs and Community Based Organisations.  We are working in conjunction with many organisations such as NICHE, CHESS, CINDI, NPPHCN, private companies and others in a variety of projects, all aimed at one goal, better health for our citizens in KwaZulu-Natal.

I would like to express my gratitude to all of them for their dedication, co-operation and commitment.  There are times when we disagree and when criticism reaches the media, but generally there is very little conflict between us and certainly not fundamental differences regarding what we wish to achieve.

We have also had excellent contact with the international community during the past year.

An example of this was the donation of 361 wheelchairs and 128 hearing aids by the Flemish Government.  The British Government sent out a delegation of health industry representatives who were hosted to a dinner at Parkside and this contact resulted in three new investments in this Province.

LEGISLATION suitable to serve the new health system has been under development for some time, and this task has reached a stage where it will soon be possible to present a full schedule to the Legislature for consideration and ratification.  It takes cognisance of our multi-cultural diversity and will address issues such as the traditional healers.  The delays were in fact because we were waiting for the National Health Bill to come out as well as the finalisation of the constitution had to be awaited.

In this regard the MEDICO-LEGAL claims against the Department in the past year, still being dealt with, amounts to about 30 with claims of about R4,3 million.  Eight claims amounting to about R960 000 were settled out of court.  In view of the numbers we serve, this is a very low figure, but it can be expected to grow, not because of increased negligence, but because of the development of a human rights culture in health care and an awareness of the rights of the patients.

This is an indication that our society is changing and in view of this it has been decided that we must appoint a MANAGER:  TRANSFORMATION.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  The agenda of this manager will be to introduce an enterprise model of management to the Department, flattening the organogram, team building, devolution of powers to the regions, policy and planning and development of the District Health System.  I must say that these processes have in fact begun, so all we need now is a process which co-ordinates to make sure that all our targets and our objectives are met, and that there is good co-ordination amongst the various teams.  The aim, of course, will be to ensure that the transformation takes place throughout the organisation, not just for transformation's sake alone, but in the interests of delivering a better quality service and increased levels of caring and compassion.  We already have within the policy and planning section, what we call, a transformation unit.  In this case, ladies and gentlemen, we have actually been pleased that in the good governance, the Premier's office has taken the Department of Health to be one of the pilots on the good governance programme.

Before making a closing statement, there is one particular point I would like to make.  Mr Chairman, very little has been done to address the victims of violence, particularly in terms of mental health.  We simply do not have the resources needed to do this and until the fear, aggression, resentment and other debilitating emotions caused by violence can be purged from our society, we will continue to have the social problems of crime, vandalism and violence.  This actually results in instability in a number of homes, family break-ups, the suicide rate increasing and the molestation of children etcetera.  This area, Mr Chairman, requires a lot of attention.

CONCLUSION

In conclusion, I want to point out that our Minister of Finance, Mr Peter Miller, has also gone on record - well he has left the House.

AN HON MEMBER:  He is behind you here!

AN HON MEMBER:  I am just signing him up here.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  In fact, as the MEC for Health in the old NPA, he said that to trim health care in KwaZulu-Natal was not a question of taking away fat, but any trimming that was done involved cutting into the flesh and bone.

This remains true, and although I am sure he will be a hard taskmaster with regards to financial controls, it is good to know that he has such an understanding of the Health issues.

KwaZulu-Natal is the Province where the allocation to Health, Education and Welfare is the highest.  In fact, the percentage allocated to these functions is almost 10% higher in KwaZulu-Natal than in any other province.

I believe this reflects a remarkable commitment by the Provincial Government as a whole, to addressing the requirements of our citizens where they are most needed.  Unless the Provincial Government gets more funds, the allocation to the social service sector cannot be increased in this Province.  But we want to then thank our colleagues and the other departments which have sacrificed a lot of their functions and funding to help us focus on education, health and welfare.

I think this reflects the fact that although we might often differ on the detail, there is no divisions amongst the parties in KwaZulu-Natal on the issues of health being vital to the well-being of our people and the development of this Province.  I am therefore grateful for the interest shown by the members of this House and the solidarity shown by all on all health matters, and reflected by the co-operation that I have received at Cabinet level as well as in the Portfolio Committee  In particular I want to express my sincere gratitude and appreciation to the members of the Portfolio Committee, in particular the chairlady Dr Mtalane.  Thank you all very much for that commitment.

Ladies and gentlemen, in closing, I would like to say that since our last budget session the Department of Health has saved hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of lives.  It has done so under difficult circumstances and without the greatest of resources at its disposal.  The key ingredient that has allowed us to make headway and reach more people in this Province than has ever been done before, is our people.

I can say this with certainty, that the vast majority of the people who work for the Department of Health are hard working, caring, compassionate and dedicated.  There might be exceptions, but I believe that the staff of the Health Department who operate at the coal face, the doctors, the clerks, the labourers, the cleaners, the pharmacists, the specialists, the nurses, the paramedics, the drivers, the engineers, the technicians, the typists, the administrators, the programmers and many, many more deserve thanks and congratulations for what they have delivered to the people of KwaZulu-Natal over the past year.

I would like therefore now to table the budget for Health as presented, the summary of which is:

Administration			:	R80,9 million
District Health Services		:	R 1,9 billion
Provincial Hospital Services	:	R 1,67 billion
Health Services			:	R549 million
Health Sciences			:	R133 million
Auxiliary and Associated Services	:	R 28 million
TOTAL				:	R4,464 billion

With that, ladies and gentlemen, Mr Chairman, I would like to invite the members of this House, members of the media and the public to a cocktail which is going be held in the parliamentary building after the completion of this debate.  With that I want to thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Minister.  I have pleasure to call upon the hon Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, the hon Dr Mtalane, to address the House.

DR L J T MTALANE:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, and the hon House. [I am very grateful to speak after my son.  I say Dr Mkhize is a son because I am older.  He was born when I was about to get married].

INTRODUCTION

The approach and attitude of the National and Provincial Government towards the health of the people of this land is positive and responsible.  Despite the budget cuts, the R4,1 billion for Health is appreciated, especially when one considers the R1,7 billion that could be spared for Health for the majority of people in this Province under the Nationalist Government.

BUDGET CONTROLS

*	The required monthly budget review by the Portfolio Committee was not possible, due to the numerous NCOP Bills, that is the Section 76 Health Bills, in Cape Town.

*	There were programmes initiated by the Department which the Portfolio Committee heard of, when areas of over-expenditure were discussed with the Finance Committee, for instance the Baby Friendly Initiative.

*	That advert, the whole page, of our Health MEC, handsome as he is, and that healthy looking pretty baby, twice a week must be pretty expensive.  How much was spent on that, Mr Minister?

*	Many budget controls have been put in place by the Department of Health.  Some of these controls cuts across the humane health values that the public have enjoyed, and this is disturbing.  It is disturbing to learn that you cannot be dialysed, and one dies and the court supports the Department, that a tiny baby cannot be resuscitated, perhaps a precious baby that the family and congregation have prayed for years.

*	The public cannot comprehend this, neither the Doctors for Life, the Christians for Truth, and numerous cultural and religious groups.  On the other hand, the Government has money to promote Termination of Pregnancy programmes.  Mr Minister, we have a dilemma here, a highly advanced medical science practice that can undertake scientific rationalisation and, on the other hand, the majority of an uninformed lay public.

*	The public frowns at these controls and feel that the Black Government is doing worse than the Verwoerd Government.  One understands your approach, being caught up in the budget over-expenditure wriggle pressures, and the alert media, but one pleads for a tactful and sensitive expression of your intended controls.

PRIVATE HOSPITALS SUBSIDY CUTS

There is an outcry for drastic budget cuts from these institutions.  One had a 78% cut and was threatened by the senior officials in your Department, Mr Minister, that if they go public about this budget cut, they will be deprived even of the 22%.  A copy of the letter about this, which was written to you, Mr Minister, was given to me.  Would you please review these attitudes and budget cuts.

NCOP BILLS

The following Bills were dealt with:

*	The Nursing Amendment Bill
*	The Dental Technicians Amendment Bill
*	The Medical and Related Substances Control Amendment Bill
*	Medical, Dental and Supplementary Health Service Professions Amendment Bill

Of interest and common to these Bills was that professionals objected to the vast powers of the Minister to have more appointees than elected members to the various Councils.  The professionals stood their ground that they be allowed to govern themselves by allowing for representation of other stakeholders that have been excluded before.

TRADITIONAL HEALERS

Public hearings have been held in all provinces and one hopes that before mid 1999, there will be a formal position and recognition of traditional healers.


TRANSLATION:  Let me say that traditional healers should not expect that they will now work at the same level as doctors.  The healing done by doctors stands firm on in-depth science.  Traditional healing relies on the spirits of the departed ancestors and their guidance, but both these are trusted and used by the public.  This is what brings together these processes that are so different, therefore there should be a programme made for working in co-operation.  T/E

I am saying, may I humbly point out that traditional healers must not expect to work in par with medical doctors.  Medical practice is based on advanced science and technology.  Traditional healing is based on ancestral spirits and their guidance.  Both medical doctors and traditional healers are trusted and utilised by the public.  That is the meeting point of these different practices.  It becomes imperative therefore that an arrangement be put in place for the good of the public.

NUTRITION PROJECTS
	
The problem with nutrition programme funds that flow from the National Health Ministry, is that they fund purely agricultural projects, but that are focused on upgrading the nutrition status of the communities.  Why can we not have these funds directed to the Department of Agriculture for the ~Xoshindlala~ Project, for instance?  That would aid, what we call in administration, the simplification of work procedures.

RECONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMMES

The RDP funds that were given to the Maputoland Women's Organisation, which I complained about last year.

	(a)	The mismanagement of funds is regretted, but one applauds the investigations that have been undertaken.  What is happening with the R1,5 million that was donated by the Department of Ecotourism?

	(b)	What is happening with the Nutrition Projects that the Minister said were at Empangeni and on the South Coast?

THE FEEDING SCHEME

Once again, I wish to point out that it is ideal that the funds and implementation be handled by one department.  That is an administrative technique and procedure that must be followed.  There is overlapping of functions here.  The Health Department seems to want to grab the implementation of this programme.  Is your Department perhaps overstaffed, Mr Minister, that you have staff to spare?  The millions of Rands that are outstanding, which were given to schools as advances, raised a lot of concern.  I am speaking of an expenditure here that has not been accounted for of R43,3 million.

AIDS AWARENESS CAMPAIGN

This was effectively and vigorously done.  It raises concerns, however, that there were times when the campaign was removed from the community to the remote area, for instance Clairwood Race Course when it could have been at.  [where they would have come from kaGijima, Disababa, at the ring, to go and listen and learn].

At Vryheid, it was removed to town when it could have reached thousands at Mondlo Township.  Hired buses were seen arriving at the stadium, and these buses were coming empty to the venue.  The radio talks and the reaching out to schools is effective and should be maintained.  The Cabinet united support for this campaign and was very good and it is appreciated.

INTEGRATION AND RATIONALISATION OF HEALTH SERVICES

The integration has continued smoothly and problems or obstacles were resolved.  Closing certain institutions and re-allocation of staff, equipment and functions has saved on the budget.  This is evident in the vast decrease of the expected expenditure on equipment this year.

DEALING WITH FRAUD AND CORRUPTION

Taking this head on has been a very positive and responsible move, Mr Minister, and we praise the Department for that.  It cannot be wiped off, of course, all at one time, but those of us, members of the public, members of Parliament that see the mischief here and there should be responsible enough to report it.

TRAINING OF HEALTH SERVICE PERSONNEL

This needs monitoring to ensure that the health service is adequately staffed and to realise the meaningful District Health Service.  The clinics are built and there are no registered nurses to staff them.  Some circles suggest that the private sector utilises these clinics.

On a sensitive note, Mr Minister, your Department says that AIDS must be accepted by the public as an ordinary disease, but you exclude the tests of the people appointed in the pre-appointment medical examination.  At the moment, how many drop outs have you had of health service personnel trainees in the past three years, and at what cost?  Mr Minister, you said training a doctor costs R600 000 per annum times six years.  Another sensitive area is the admission of our Black people to the medical and the science pre-medical courses.  The criteria set is unattainable by most Blacks, even matriculants that have got a star for their matric.  I do not at the least suggest the lowering of standards, but that some special arrangements be devised considering the background of our people.  What is happening now is seen as pure discrimination.

The Health Portfolio Committee appreciated action by the Department in getting rid of the numerous failures in the various training programmes, because the Portfolio Committee complained bitterly about this.

DISTRICT HEALTH SYSTEM

This is a very good and practical health care delivery approach to reach the vast population.  The districts are far too wide and the staff so limited.  We need to have the District Health Service managers trained and have them given the budget to run this district.  At Hlabisa Hospital on 7 May, the Medical Superintendent there strongly criticised the remote control of districts from Head Office, and that was what Dr N Zuma, the National Health Minister was responding to, when she spoke of the intended decentralisation of authority and responsibility.

Mr Minister, it has taken too long for these districts to be functional.

MALARIA

Malaria continues to affect our people.  It really needs a co-ordinated and intensified effort of health education and change of attitudes to eradicate this condition.

IMAGE OF THE HEALTH SERVICE IN KWAZULU-NATAL

The scientific approach to medicine, health services delivery may be good, as you have annunciated here, Mr Minister, but the test and image of your Department is there at operational level, where the health consumer interacts with the care-giver.  At this level the supervisor is your rescuer.  Dynamic leadership is required there if you hope to have budgetary control there.

The Cuban and missionary doctors have curbed the severe shortage.  These doctors, not being the product of ~Apartheid~, are very humane.  There are South African white doctors that still smack patients, Dr Mkhize, with wrath.

The further shortage of staff caused by freezing of posts that become vacant is crippling the health care delivery, especially the nursing posts.  Once when I arrived at a clinic the community was so happy to see me.  They told me about their problems and that they had been waiting for over two hours for a nurse.  When the nurse arrived she told me that she was off.  The matron pleaded with her to come on duty, because there were no nurses to come on duty.  There was no domestic to clean the floor.  A member of the public offered to clean the floor.  Some of the responsible health professionals are running away from the Government health service.  Staff morale seems to have been washed away by a sea current, I do not know to where.  Private practices have waiting lists, but not the Government service.  Attitudes are bad and need to be changed.  There are some who are good, but.  [but the fault of one is the fault of all].

When a terminally ill patient is refused admission why should the relatives be harshly told that they must take him or her away to die at home?

Home based care has not been firmly established, but AIDS sufferers and chronic ill must be nursed at home.  This is putting the cart before the horse.

Hygienic standards in hospitals are low, Mr Minister.  Cobwebs, layers of dust, sagging curtains is really disgraceful.  Misuse of phones, eg [where people can send greetings to friends and family.  That is where we hear of all and sundry's grandmother.  Another person, even praised with admiration, saying that at Ezingolweni Clinic a sister was very kind to her, she allowed her to use the clinic telephone].  And I happened to wake up at that time and my husband said listen.

Ambulances are still restricted to pick up patients from Black townships, because the white and Indian drivers are afraid to go there.  Our people are suffering, Mr Minister.  People have complained at Umlazi, Shallcross, Lamontville, KwaMashu, Newcastle, Estcourt, you name it.

THE MOBILE CLINIC SERVICES

This is a very valuable service to the community.  The staff, however, seem to have a similar pattern of behaviour all over.  They leave the health institution, via the shopping centre, stop at some point to picnic, and arrive late at the clinic point and then they rush the patients.  These attitudes have to change, Mr Minister.

The clinics that are built, officially opened and used as mobile clinic stops is raising concerns, but you have explained to us why it is happening.  Perhaps allowing the private sector to use these clinics would be appreciated by the communities.  The production of trained health service personnel is slow to provide staff to these clinics.

*	The empty medicine shelves in clinics is a serious matter.  Over-dispensing of supplies really needs staff there to exercise control and be responsible.
*	The low levels of violence in our communities now allow for the full utilisation of health services.  We thank our KwaZulu-Natal community for that.

Mr Minister, I have showered you, young as you are, with many negative aspects of the health services.  I do not expect you to tell this House how you can correct each one of these problems.

Let the supervisors be sensitised to tirelessly guide, direct, correct, persuade and to motivate staff to uphold positive attitudes in serving the public.  It is the members of the health service, at operational level that gives a good name to the Government service.  Staff have to be self-disciplined to fulfil the health care needs.

TRANSLATION:  People who work at the grass-roots level, I am from there.  I am not talking about something I do not know.  They have to dedicate themselves and have that consciousness to say, "Oh my God, if my Minister appears here and sees me doing this, what will he say?"  Not to do good when the supervisor is around.  I am not talking about something I do not know.  I worked in hospitals for 30 years.  T/E

Out of the 60 years that I have lived.  Mr Minister, let your Department aim at teaching the rights of patients and the clients and the public will be grateful to you.  The power of knowing their rights, shall strengthen their demand for their respect and humane handling.  Our people need the respect and dignity they have been deprived of for so long.

TRANSLATION:  I say our people need to be given respect and dignity, they 	have long been disrespected and not given this.  Now that there is their 	own government, they should feel welcome, they should feel loved, they should feel that they are cared for and see that indeed this is our government.  The attitude among workers that they say, when something is not available they say yes, it is Mandela's Government.  People	should stop this, it is our Government.  T/E

THE HEALTH PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE

The Health Portfolio Committee consists of women and men that are sensitive to the needs of the community.  They have worked hard.  We miss Mr Redinger.

Miss Gounden is the hard working secretary for our Health Portfolio Committee, and we wish her well on her birthday today.  The little girl, it is her birthday.  Happy birthday to you, Bash.

CONCLUSION

Mr Minister, and your departmental officials, you are indeed a hard working team.  It is a pleasure to work with you.  For each year you have given of your best to improve the health care delivery, and we thank you for that.


TRANSLATION:  I say the hon Minister and his team of senior people, oh, they have worked hard during these years we have been working with them.  Year after year since we started in 1994, they have done wonders to improve people's lives and provide health care to people.  For that we are grateful.  T/E

We thank the staff at operational level.  You toil day and night on duty, public holidays and some have died on duty or going on duty.  We thank your families that support you whilst you make these sacrifices for the nation.

Lastly, I wish to thank Radio Ukhozi FM for their co-operation with the Department of Health, about the Health Education Talks, and the health related adverts.

[UKhozi Radio on health issues, broadcasts early in the morning].

Chairperson, and the hon House, I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Dr Mtalane.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Dr Luthuli to address the House for 15 minutes.

DR A N LUTHULI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, hon members.  I greet the press, and the people in the gallery.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

DR A N LUTHULI:  Yes.  I want to start by congratulating the Minister of Health for yet another enlightening report to this Legislative House.  It is very satisfying to me as a member of Parliament, and I am sure to others as well, to sit here and listen to a Minister present a report about the work of his Department over the period of one year, and present it in the manner that my hon colleague Dr Mkhize has just done now.  It was done in a very professional manner.  It conveyed that a lot of work is being done by the Department.  The substance of the report itself indicates that, but also even the preparation of the report is excellent.

The Minister of Health is busy, and the Minister has practised transparency in transforming the Ministry.  I think we can commend that and say it has been done to the extent we can see it has happened.

Last year, for instance, the Minister did not hesitate to inform the Portfolio Committee of the over-expenditure in the Department.  He did not sit on this and say, "No, no, no, I will try to keep it undercover until they read about it in the press".  He came straight out and informed us, and said we should not hear this from the press.  I want to commend that very much.  That is what we call transparency and concern about your colleagues in working for health in this country.  It shows that you are thinking about the fact that they must not be surprised.  This is as it should be, but I do know that this is not what happens in all the Ministries.  So it is worth mentioning.

In the past four years at this time of the year, we in the Health Portfolio report about the good working relationship that exists between the Committee, the Minister and the Department.  It is my pleasure to say that the situation remains the same.  Thanks to the Chairlady of the Portfolio Committee, Dr Mtalane, the Minister Dr Zweli Mkhize, and the Head of Department, Professor Green-Thompson.  My thanks go to them as heads of this Department, but in fact I thank everybody involved.

It will be up to my hon colleague Advocate Madondo to deal, at length, with the subject of the District Health Systems, but I want to add my own concern to this matter.  I want to address these remarks to the Minister sitting next to me.  I would humbly suggest to the Minister, as it has always been the aim of this Government, to achieve the state of accessible and affordable health care for all the citizens of this country through the comprehensive Primary Health Care programme, that this programme be now prioritised as the number one concern.  I am saying this notwithstanding the financial constraints and in fact withstanding them that exist within the Department.  I think there may be difficulty with where to put the money in any department when it is needed everywhere.  We know that we are faced with financial constraints.  I am appealing to you very, very seriously.  I think we will all agree that in the end we are gathered here to see to it that the health of our people, particularly the people who have been neglected in the past, is improved.  We have been in Government for five years we should now be approaching the point where they are going to feel that we have delivered to them with that in mind, that their health should improve.  This is the vehicle for that kind of delivery, the District Health System and its Primary Health Care programme.

Other reasons for thinking that we need to push this delivery, the reasons are manifold, but one is that Government needs an effective and ready made line of communication with its people on health matters.  A well planned and executed Primary Health Care Network provides such lines of communication.  I think that is a statement of fact.

Health education is a major problem with our people.  That is going to cover some of the things that the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee alluded to, people should know what they can expect from health.  What kind of service they can expect from the health-givers.  They should know their rights, and until that happens we will not see things changing much at the level of health care delivery.  As Government that is where we really want to see change occurring.  People must be able to criticise the Department.  People must be able to report and have that courage to go and say, "I was abused and I will not stand for it".  But as things are now, they are just too timid and afraid to say it.  We have not empowered them.  I believe that through an effective District Health System and Primary Health Care there will be improvement in this regard.

So just to go back on that.  Health education is a major problem with our people.  There is a lot of ignorance and misconceptions about diseases, contributing negatively to the attainment of good health.  Yet, there is no comprehensive manner to educate the people.  This is a real handicap.  Health education greatly assists the processes of prevention of diseases and promotion of good health.

Let us take the burning issues of AIDS and TB, which are ravaging our people at the moment.  We need to educate and carry the public with us all the time in order to effectively bring down the incidence of these diseases, and in fact including all the STDs, that is the sexually transmitted diseases.  In countries where an effective primary health care network is in place one notices a definite downward trend in the occurrence of these and all the other preventable illnesses.  I dare say this route will be the most effective, and in the long term the least expensive to deal with AIDS.  At present, the problem is to achieve an integrated programme of disease control and health promotion, which is integrated and not piecemeal.  Hence my submission that the attainment of comprehensive Primary Health Care should be priority number one.

Another thing is that the doctor shortage will improve once we have our Primary Health Care Network System in place, because Primary Health Care is nurse, rather than doctor driven.  This leaves the doctor to spend more time doing what they alone can do in the health team and that is treating those of our society who are beyond Primary Health Care treatment.  I know that we are faced with a situation at the moment where I say this delivery is nurse driven rather than doctor driven, but in fact even on the nursing side we probably have shortages.  

Another aspect is that the keeping of statistics improves with a Primary Health Care system.  I believe that we may be having some problems, I stand to be corrected by the Minister here, we may be experiencing problems with keeping statistics which are really accurate at the present moment.  I do know that with this kind of system in place that aspect improves a lot, because if people are taught to keep the statistics clearly and properly at each and every clinic, and every place where health care is delivered then you are surely going to improve your statistical correctness.

I want to state here that despite the above remarks, the Minister of Health has been very alert and pro-active in his approach to these diseases that is the AIDS and the TB scourge.  At present South Africa is on the up graph for both these diseases.

As far as AIDS is concerned, the observation is that it gets worse before it improves.  There is a period of disbelief and denial about the disease, during which time it spreads unchecked. Eventually reality dawns as people see the deaths around them.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

DR A N LUTHULI:  And the graph slowly changes its direction.  Now of course we are lucky here that the Minister even thinks of bringing condoms into this House.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR A N LUTHULI:  The Department of Health has performed its duty through many initiatives.  The Minister mentioned some of these.  We appreciate this effort very much, the Cabinet initiatives on AIDS control.  Youth education, using whatever means, is absolutely crucial.  Women are greater victims of AIDS than men, for a number of reasons.  I will not go into the reasons, but that is a statement of fact.  When are we going to empower women with a condom that is affordable, so that they can be in control of their bodies and their lives as far as sex is concerned?  I think this contributes a lot to the fact that more women are dying, and are affected more with AIDS than men.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

DR A N LUTHULI:  It only changes when you get older.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

DR A N LUTHULI:  Thank you.  The time was too short I want to say.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I have a stopwatch.  You can check at any time you want to.  Next on the list is the hon member Mrs Mkhize to address the House for 10 minutes.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  The hon Minister of Health is presenting his budget speech today surrounded by gloomy circumstances, surrounded by a gloomy financial situation and, Mr Chairperson, it is frightening to think that whilst health problems are on the increase, the Health budget is on the decrease.  More people are ill.  We have more people with high blood pressure, diabetes, arthritis and accidents are increasing, and even AIDS and TB is increasing, as my colleague has just mentioned, yet the money is on the decrease.

In our country we still value the lives of our people.  We value our old and the frail.  We value our sick and even those who are in their terminal stages of life.  We believe that a person's life still lies in God's hands.  We would hate to have a situation where due to budgetary constraints our sick are left to die without medical or nursing care.

Funds must be well managed, not only by the Province, but also from the National Parliament in terms of policy-making.  Prioritisation of needs is very essential.  There is a shortage of medicines in clinics and hospitals while, on the other hand, we talk about free health services - this sounds ambiguous and lacks reasoning.  We are talking about funding a number of new abortion or termination of pregnancy clinics while we are failing to put our kidney failure patients on dialysis because it is too expensive, is a question that concerns our people out there.

Talking about AIDS/HIV, this monstrous disease, is quite a depressing issue, but we must face it.  The figures from January to September last year, show that 2 530 just in KZN is appalling. I know that this figure has increased this year.  But the fact that more women are infected is also very depressing.  As my colleague has just mentioned there might be causes.  Women do get pregnant and have to go for HIV blood tests, that could be one of the factors, but as it is, the situation is really appalling.

AIDS/HIV, I find has got two issues that have to be addressed.  The high number of people who are now HIV positive indicates  that even with our campaigns on HIV we must take into account the fact that many people are already HIV positive.  During our programmes we must address those who are infected and those who are not.  I find the tendency is just to say put the condoms on and I get worried because 

TRANSLATION:  Because we know that this disease cannot be cured, but there is something that we should know and that is to encourage people who already have the virus, so that they can be healthy and strong and be able to raise their children, or grow up if they are children.  In my opinion, it is as if we are ignoring giving advice to one another.  When I was still working at the hospital, a doctor, passing by, would say to a person who has a fracture, "You should seek traditional medicine for fractures.  Another one would pass by and say to a person suffering from diabetes, "Go and seek traditional medicine for diabetes, known as ibhodlela so that your sugar level can be reduced.  In saying these things, we are Africans, my senior there will agree with me - oh, he has left.

I was quite happy when I heard the Chairperson for Health speaking here about traditional healers.  It is necessary when campaigns are run that they too are contacted and work together in co-operation.  T/E

Another issue that concerns me about AIDS prevention, is people  come quite frequently to me and complain about the washing of bodies in the mortuaries.  Women are always involved in the washing of bodies, especially church groups.  I think they are very prone to contracting AIDS while they are busy with that process.  I wish there could be some sort of regulation that gloves must be supplied to every mortuary, whether it is a Government mortuary or whatever, but it is very essential that that must be done.  That is why I am concerned about the funds.

I am quite happy also about the crisis clinics that are being established in hospitals to care for those women and children who are abused.  I think they are a great help.

Before I conclude, may I congratulate the Minister's Department in our area, Madadeni, where doctors, nurses, administrators and ambulance drivers went out of their way to help with that disaster where 32 people died, and of those 28 were school children.  It was very encouraging to see the Ministers from different departments working together.  I really feel that it came as a reassurance to that community that our political leaders work together and that they care for their people.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  45 seconds.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  May I conclude, Mr Chairman, by saying health is a very important commodity.  Health is the most important Department and needs to be supported by all.  I support my Minister.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Mkhize.  I now call upon the hon member Mr Matthee to address the House for eight minutes.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, whether we like it or not, South Africa's health services are in a mess.  There is no other way to describe it.  Almost every department in this country is facing a crisis and I can name some examples, South African Police Services, our Education Department, and, sir, this country at the moment is on a slippery slope of major proportions.

Of all the provinces, KwaZulu-Natal's health care services is in the biggest crisis, and in fact in the years to come will face even bigger crises.  I will explain why.

I have drawn up an emergency list.  Besides the every day care, hospital care, and attending to emergencies, we have HIV and AIDS patients.  We have an HIV epidemic in this country, and in particular this Province.  We have malaria.  Malaria is one of the highest incidences in Africa, bilharzia, tuberculosis and malnutrition.  To exacerbate this situation, we find that within the hospital services there is fraud, theft, corruption by officials and appointed agencies, maladministration, people who are performing duties for which they are not even trained or capable of, we have strikes by nursing staff, and all this leads to a crisis, I believe, in our Health Department.

Sir, with only R4,464 billion allocated to Health, things can only get worse.  In fact, what guarantee is there that we are going to get more money next year or in five years time and in 10 years time?  Will we be facing the biggest crisis as far as AIDS is concerned?  It is estimated that at the present moment  there are 2,6 million HIV carriers in South Africa, of which 800 000 are in KwaZulu-Natal, or 30,8%.

We are told that the incubation period is anything between six, eight up to ten years.  Where will we stand in 10 years time, facing 800 000 patients or more?  Yet we have a Minister here who tells us in a very proud manner that he is very pleased that they have built so many clinics, and many of these clinics are empty.  That money could rather have been spent on the AIDS Campaign.

But, sir, in February this year a presentation was made by the children in distress, that said that the AIDS Awareness Campaign in this Province has failed and that the focus should be on the management of the disease rather than trying to avoid it.  My question to the hon the Minister is, has he given up on the AIDS Awareness Campaign?  It is very nice to see these articles in front of us here but, sir, that is not solving the problem.  I want to know what is happening outside this chamber.  That is what I want to know, sir.

I want to know, first of all, he has not given us any short, medium or long term plan for the AIDS and the HIV carriers.  That is the problem we are going to face in the next 10 years.

I visualise that we will use school halls and classrooms to accommodate patients.  Where can you house 800 000 patients in 10 years time?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am sorry, Mr Matthee, can we hear Mr Rehman?

MR M F REHMAN:  Thank you.  Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the hon member take a question?

MR J C MATTHEE:  Mr Chairman, when I am finished with my address, sir, then I will take a question.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  He will not be able to take a question right now.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J C MATTHEE:  I am not scared of questions from the hon the member, please.  Mr Chairman, we have another issue, and that is bilharzia.  A recent survey that was done in Pinetown, indicated that four out of ten children have bilharzia.  KwaZulu-Natal has got the highest incidence of malaria in Africa, and only recently the World Health Organisation criticised South Africa for not taking corrective action in addressing this particular disease.

Can the hon Minister tell us what co-operation are we receiving from Mozambique, our neighbour, and Swaziland regarding malaria?  What co-operation are we getting from those two countries regarding AIDS, sir?  Is there a joint action plan between South Africa, Mozambique and Swaziland?  Tuberculosis was mentioned by Dr Luthuli, and I agree with her.  Tuberculosis is another scourge in this Province and what is the Department actually doing about this?  We read in the newspapers that there is going to be a 35% budget cut for those people who suffer from tuberculosis.  We have heard nothing from the Minister on this during his opening address this afternoon.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR J C MATTHEE:  I go further, sir.  How long is it going to take to eradicate this scourge in our Province?  Then I would like to come to my last point, and that is this Province's policy on foreign doctors.  We have a reciprocal registration agreement with countries like England, Belgium and Ireland which states that their doctors can come here and practice for a limited period, for three months or a year, and use the qualifications which they have obtained in those particular countries.

AN HON MEMBER:  And ours can go there.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Ja.  Now I believe that this reciprocal agreement is under threat by this Government.  I want the Minister to clearly spell out what exactly he has in view regarding doctors visiting our country and working here, because it is a known fact that South African doctors do not like to go into the rural areas, for whatever reasons they have.  It is a known fact, sir.  You cannot get young interns to go to the rural areas to even do their internship and neither to practice at these hospitals and clinics.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J C MATTHEE:  Well, if you have dictators yes, like the communist party and the ANC alliance.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J C MATTHEE:  If you want dictatorships like that, yes.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  30 seconds.

MR J C MATTHEE:  Then we can do that.  But, sir, I sincerely hope that the Minister, with the brief time I had, will be able to answer those few questions which I have put to him.  Thank you very much indeed.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Next on the list is the hon member Mrs Mohlaka who will address the House for 13 minutes.

MRS B S MOHLAKA:  Mr Chairman, it is my pleasure to debate on this vote on Health and to congratulate the hon Minister of Health, Dr Z Mkhize.

[But first, I must say that Dr Mkhize, you have been lucky that highly qualified doctors and nurses have been brought together.  Now we will speak only the truth].

Thank you.  The Department of Health is an essential service and it is disheartening, Mhlonishwa, to read from your annual report under 6.1 that COSATU invaded the following hospitals as part of its mass action, that was in 1997, 13 hospitals were involved. The hospitals involved were Clairwood Hospital, Murchison, Addington, Christ the King, St Andrew Hospital, Wentworth.  You know I am disappointed, Wentworth is very important and it is the only hospital that is capable of doing major operations, such as craniotomies, heart operations and other very delicate operations.  King Edward is amongst those, Stanger Hospital, G J Crookes, King George V, Fieldcrest and Orthopaedic Services at Wentworth, Oral and Dental.  I do not know whether this was a membership drive or what.

Reasons for the strike which disrupted essential services has not yet been explained.  Is it fashion to target essential services?  However, the grapevine has it that the New Labour Relations Act will prohibited strikes in essential services.

Mr Chairman, I am concerned about the undergraduate training for under-served rural communities.  As it is, they have suffered a setback.  The Department of Health decided to implement its budget cut on the nursing profession, and the nursing profession is a backbone to health services.  In the hon Minister's budget speech, I think it was 1997, it reflected a shortage of 4 000 doctors and nurses.  What is now happening is adding salt to the wound.  

The nursing colleges north of the Tugela River which mainly fall under Ngwelezana Hospital and are affiliated to the University of Zululand, have been neglected.  For the information of this House, Mr Chairperson, there has been no intake of first year students since January 1998.  Among the hospitals that have experienced this problem is Ngwelezana Hospital, Benedictine Hospital and Charles Johnson Hospital.  This has given rise to gross shortages in the wards.

On the other hand, Mr Chairman, hospitals south of the Tugela River which are said to be amalgamated in as far as nursing colleges are concerned have been blessed with the intake of new nursing students.  Somewhere in your budget speech it is mentioned that 33 nursing students who are supposed to be at the Prince Mshiyeni Memorial Hospital, have been sent to R K Khan and this is increasing the staff compliment of R K Khan.  Why has this discrimination been allowed to occur?

We all know that nurses and doctors care for our lives from womb to tomb, and that is a fact.  This category of health care workers are marginalised.  Tea has been cut and this is especially pathetic for the night duty staff, including doctors who have nothing to drink, and yet are expected to perform  emergency operations.  For the nurses who have to scrub for these operations there is no tea and sandwiches.  Is the nursing profession discriminated against because it is formed by about 75% of women?

Yesterday I presented the scenario on the causes of the lack of funds from the National Government, such as unbudgeted TRC, and the National Council of Provinces which was implemented without any budget.

There are quite a number of universities in South Africa that train medical doctors.  It is ironic that whilst the Department or the Government has no money, it is able to send 10 students for medical training to Cuba.  If the country had money I would not be commenting on this topic.  It would be interesting to know how much the airfare for each student cost and accommodation and their per diem allowance.

Let me come back to nursing.  If there is no increase in the training of nurses, how does the Department hope to reach its target of 2 500 primary health care nurses in five years?  The University of Zululand has been discriminated against.  There has been no new student intake because it is said that there are no funds in the Department.  I am talking about the Department of Nursing which trains the B.Cur students.  On the other hand, the University of Natal which trains B.Sc students has been lucky enough to have their students funded.  The B.Sc students are only exposed to bedside nursing on the third year of their training.

On page 18 of the hon Minister of Health's budget speech, Mr Chairman, Medico Legal hazard claims have been tabled as R4 122 750.  Medico Legal hazards, as you know, are caused by the shortage of nurses and doctors.  In the budget I could not find provision for Medico Legal hazards, and I am very concerned about it because it means that, as the hon Minister did say, people now have the right to claim.  This will result in the Department being drained of all its funds for Medico Legal hazards that are going to occur continuously.

If there is no overtime allowance emergency operations are not going to be performed.  Patients with acute diseases, such as appendicitis and malpresentations in maternity cases, amongst others, will result in 80% of Medico Legal hazards.  Nosocomial and other cross-infections are going to take their toll, and the whole face of the disease profile is going to change for the worse.  Road accident cases will not be attended to by any doctor or health care worker after hours, because there is no money for overtime.  This needs to be revisited.

Mr Chairman, one would have appreciated it if there was a brief report on nurse education with special reference to the achievements and pass rate of nurses in the various hospitals in KwaZulu-Natal.  For example, Nkonjeni Hospital, a nursing school has produced two top students who passed their examinations in midwifery with the highest marks in the whole of the Republic of South Africa.

Mr Chairman, and hon members, the Department of Health is doing its best under the circumstances. [Listen, hon members].

The Department of Health cannot assist us members with anti-flu injections.  Therefore I urge all members of this House to make good use of their medical aid cards, by visiting their private doctors, who will give them the anti-flu vaccines in order to avoid the high absenteeism that I am witnessing today.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MRS B S MOHLAKA: [But do not go when you are already ill].  Mr Chairman, and hon House, I plead with the private sector, particularly private hospitals to apply to the South African Nursing Council to train nurses instead of recruiting the few nurses that the Government train and produce. [I am not going to be lengthy in my speech].

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, it is with deep regret that there are 122 reported maternal deaths each year. [You see, for a woman to go with the intention of giving birth and not return healthy, it is something very painful for her to die in the hands of nurses and doctors.  This is due to a great  shortage.  They die, including the fetus, and then certain traditional customs have to be performed].

This should be controlled and the only way to do this is to unfreeze posts, create new posts and everything will be okay.  Which husband and the entire family would like to lose a wife and a mother during and after labour? 

TRANSLATION:  Now, Dr Mkhize, hon and respectable member, your children are hungry, they love you very much, they respect you.  Please try and raise money, even if it is just for tea.  These people wake up at 5:00, at 4:00. rushing to work and there is not even a cup of tea.  No sooner does that person arrive and enter the hospital and they say, "Another case", and they have to rush to her, saying, "Here she is giving birth right in front of you".  Now please, try, Dr Mkhize.  That is Maslow's basic need.  I am seriously asking you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:.  [The hon member has one minute].

MRS B S MOHLAKA: 
TRANSLATION:  No, Dr Mkhize will try on our behalf.  Hon Minister, we ask you for this favour, we ask our seniors.  Doctors are ready to drop to the floor.  Our senior Professor, Green-Thompson, when he was still senior here, performing operations day and night, teaching at Medical School, he used to enter the theatre and find sandwiches, tea, and eat quickly, of course, perform the operations and everything would be okay.  We are begging you.  T/E 

I thank you, Mr Chairman, and I support the budget.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, Mrs Mohlaka.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  On a point of order.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  The members of the medical profession in this House do understand that we do not understand these nosocomial and NOs and so forth.  Can they use terms that we can all understand?  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I thank the hon Minister.  His concern is noted.

AN HON MEMBER:  Arrive Alive.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One gentleman during a meeting said, "You know you guys keep on using these acronyms and this leaves me as a VCP".  So everybody were scratching their heads as to what is a VCP, and he said it leaves me a "very confused person".  [LAUGHTER]  I hope members will take note of that.  I wish to call upon the hon member Advocate Madondo to address the House for 12 minutes.

ADV I M MADONDO:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Firstly, I would like to respond to the cries of the decrease in the budget.  Some members tend to forget that we are servicing an initial debt created by the ~Apartheid~ regime.

With regard to the training of students in Cuba, there is also an outcry that there will be a drain on funds.  Cuba has been identified as a country which can provide the skills and expertise necessary for health services in this Province. 

With regard to the private sector running the clinics which are not yet staffed, I have a fear in that regard, because that will amount to a rip-off of our rural members of the community who are unemployed because they cannot afford the fees which are charged by the private sector.

Mr Chairman, I am charged to deal with the more complex concept called the District Health System.  The District Health System was enunciated in Alma Ata in 1978 and the Government of National Unity, by its adoption of the ANC invented RDP, has committed itself to the development of the District Health System.  The World Health Organisation defines the District Health System as follows.

A District Health System based on Primary Health Care is a more or less self-contained segment of the national health system.  It comprises first and foremost a well defined population living within a clearly delineated administrative and geographical area, whether urban or rural.  It includes all institutions and individuals providing health care in the district, whether governmental, social security, non-governmental, private or traditional.

The District Health System is aimed at developing a sustainable, co-ordinated, integrated and comprehensive health system at all levels of care based on the Primary Health Care approach.  It stems from the view that a decentralised health system is more likely to deliver, appropriate, effective and efficient health care, appropriate to the unique needs of the local communities.

The district based health services are now applied successfully in many countries and have been adapted to a wide variety of situations from developing countries on our continent to more sophisticated systems, such as in Canada.

The implementation of the District Health System will help to remedy the inequalities and inefficiencies of the past.  There has been discrimination based on race and large discrepancies in services and conditions between health authorities.  The District Health System will further help to eliminate fragmentation and the duplication of health services.  One of the legacies of the fragmented health system of the past has been the creation of discrepancies between salaries and condition of services of workers employed by different authorities.  Some local authorities still have racially based differences in salaries and working conditions.

Primary Health Care services are at present in a fragmented and inefficient manner.  Co-ordination between the public and the private sector is minimal and within the public sector there has been a multitude of different and overlapping authorities responsible for health services.  Salaries and terms and conditions of service vary greatly between different local authorities and between local authorities and the provincial and national administrations.

It is quite obvious that restructuring district health services will be a complex and enormous process, but failure to do so will perpetuate inefficiency and inequity.  An integrated health system is built on the provision of health, and health care services at the community level, because central to the Primary Health Care approach is community participation in the planning, provision, control and monitoring of services.

The District Health System will rationalise service delivery and overcome the present fragmentation as quickly as possible.  There will be a remarkable improvement in the delivery services to under-served communities.  The District Health System will ensure equity in service provision in the long term.  It is only possible to make maximal use of the relatively limited resources available for health care in South Africa, if the combined resources of the public and the private sector are efficiently utilised and co-ordinated.  The district health authority will also play a role in the co-ordination, monitoring and perhaps regulating the activities of the private sector within the district.

Every part of every province will be within a health district.  The size of each district will vary according to local conditions.  The health district needs to be large enough to have the financial and managerial capacity to provide all essential care, including environmental health services, emergency services and first level hospital care.  In other words, it must contain all the elements required for comprehensive primary health care services.  At the same time it must be small enough for efficient management, meaningful community participation and accountability.

There will be a unitary national health service based on a District Health System that allows access for everybody to improve his health.  In the health district model, the entire country is subdivided into a manageable size, geographically coherent and contiguous districts.  Health district boundaries need not be permanent, and should be subject to change over time to improve the management of the district, particularly if Local Government boundaries change or as health management capacity increases and a large district can be divided into smaller health districts.

A central feature of the district model is that the health services have a responsibility to serve a well defined group of people living in a clearly delineated and functionally coherent area.  This population based model allows for constant assessment and monitoring of health problems in the district, and facilities and services provided, and leads to efficient and rational planning.  In addition, community participation, decentralisation and management autonomy are issues crucial to the creation of a health system that can relate to the people it serves in any meaningful way.

The health district is not a separate, completely autonomous unit.  If forms an integral part of the national health system within which there are three major levels.

The district health authorities responsible for the provision of non-specialist health services within each district.  The district health authority serves to ensure effective management which is accountable to local communities, and responsive to local need through the participation of communities and of staff in the planning and management of services.  District health services must be planned, managed and delivered in a comprehensive integrated manner.

The provincial departments of health are responsible for the co-ordination of the health system within each province for the provision of specialist health services and for monitoring and support of the district health authorities.  The Provincial Health Department will formulate norms and standards for district health services, and protocols for health programmes and strategies, and will promote the use of evidence based procedures and quality assurance methods.  Clinical support to the districts is provided by secondary specialist referral hospitals, managed by the Provincial Health Department.  These hospitals will receive patients referred from district hospitals, and they will provide effective outreach services support and in-service training to the staff and the district facilities through regular visits of specialists and registrars.

The National Department of Health responsible for the overall co-ordination and determination of the policy for the country health system and for monitoring and support of the Province.  Health authorities should not deny any person access to public sector health services on the grounds that the said person is resident outside the area of that authority.  Provision must be made for cost recovery mechanisms between authorities for interdistrict health services.

Mr Chairman, I also want to point out one other thing, that community participation does not entitle the leaders of the certain structures to frustrate or interfere with the public functions organised at the clinics, because at other stages you will find that some senior members of the community tend to threaten the health officials, or to tell them who to invite or not to invite to the occasions.  That should be investigated.  If it is found that there is somebody responsible for that, that person or persons be exposed, because it means that they have double standards.  Here in Parliament they appear with one face, and when they are outside in the public they show the other face.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Advocate Madondo.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Burrows, who will address the House for 10 minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR R M BURROWS:  No, it is an Italian shirt actually, but still.  [LAUGHTER]  Mr Chairman, I would like to congratulate the Minister and his Department, particularly those who have worked so actively during the past year in order to survive and, may I say thrive on an extremely limited budget.  It has been a very hard task.  It has not been a morally easy task or even one that I sometimes think fits within the Hippocratic oath of the Minister.  It is one that we really need to constantly re-examine.

That is one of my first aspects, in terms of mortality and the challenges that we have to face.  I think the Minister will agree that some of the decisions that the Department has been forced to make, which he highlighted in a statement he made earlier this year, of the implications of having to face a budgetary deficit of R621 million, are extremely serious indeed.  Therefore I may just cite one or two of them.

		A new stringent selection criteria will be put in place for certain services which will result in an increase in mortality rates.

		Very little funding is available for maintenance.  The state of already poor facilities will deteriorate further.

And I could go on.  I do not want to go on at great length.  The point I want to make is that the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, I think will recognise that it is important in this financial year, and we did not do it last financial year, to have a monthly cash flow statement in detail, and see how that corresponds with what the Minister has suggested, or the Department has suggested as their proforma budget cash flow for the future year.

Here I want to make the point that this Department is in some senses no different from any other.  It falls under the priorities set by the Finance Portfolio Committee.  It has to meet its budget.  Within those parameters we need in fact to have a discussion in the Portfolio Committee of the implications of the suggested cuts.  For example, only 67% of beds will remain open.  That will lead to wards being closed, that will lead to some hospitals being mothballed.  It has no other consequence, it has got to head in that direction.  We need to discuss those.

We need also to discuss at the Portfolio Committee, because we have not had the full information of the National Minister of Finances' agreement with the Province in order to provide us with the additional bridging finance that they did.  I know certainly in Education that they have had to comply with certain conditions that National Government have laid down.  We need to know what conditions National are setting for the Department of Health and what it has to comply with, over which it has no control at all.

There are several very harsh realities, and some of them are spelt out in the Minister's statement and in his speech today.  But quite frankly, I want to say in a very similar note that I made to the Minister of Education yesterday.  It is very, very important that we communicate the fact that we have a budget restriction, and I agree with the Minister, we need to focus on what we have got, rather than what we have not got.  That means that everybody, from the Minister to the lowest person who is a patient going into a clinic or a hospital, has to face the reality that it will not be the same as last year.  Echoed today, in the Echo supplement to the Witness, makes that point clear, but very badly I think.  The headline is, "No help for sick children as KZN clinics reduce supplies".

Now that is a very misleading headline, because you read it and in fact, if I may read the second paragraph:

		Medicines which will no longer be available in State clinics and hospitals are multi-vitamin syrups, cough mixtures and lin-methyl ointments.

They are not exactly life preservatives, but there will be a cut in supply.  The point I am simply making, and it quotes, with respect, a clinic superintendent who actually says he does not know why the clinic is cutting back on supplies and cannot tell the patients.  That is exactly what I said to the Minister of Education.  Every principal, every educator, every chairperson of a governing body has got to know there is a budget that has to be met.  Every superintendent of every hospital, of every clinic, all your doctors and all your nursing staff have got to know there is a budget and it has got to be complied with, and the result will be X, Y and Z.  It is a communications effort internal to the Department that really has got to take place.

Let me also congratulate the Minister on the clinic building programme.  I understand from his speech the importance of having gone ahead and building the clinics, but I do have a concern.  The Minister says in six months, five months time, all the clinics will be staffed.  Presumably they will be staffed by means of redeployment from services that are underutilised.  If I may just express one concern from a Portfolio Committee that has wrestled with this problem of redeployment, wait until you hit the public service unions and they do not want to negotiate for the redeployment from an urban to a rural area.  It takes months to get that redeployment sorted out.  It is one of those exercises where I disagree with Advocate Madondo who spoke before me.  It is not a question, if you use a private sector institution as a clinic for a short time, you are going to charge any fees, it remains exactly the same structure.  All you are simply doing is you are bringing in outsiders so that you can use that clinic, use the building, use the facilities whilst you can for a period of time, until you have got such redeployment taking place.

In connection with the clinics I must also make the point, and it needs to be broadly made, the Doctor will be well aware of this, Mr Chairman, of the very strong interrelationship between health, housing, food and income.  What is actually happening and we have known this throughout the years that we have been through, the dark times in South Africa, that we have had these magnificent hospitals that have provided very expensive services and we have had no facilities in the rural areas.  We are now creating facilities in the rural areas, we are providing medication and we are providing clinic services.  Unfortunately, the patient or the person being looked after then returns to a home or a hovel where the conditions are insanitary, lack food and those sort of things.  Somewhere there has got to be an inter-departmental group, together with agriculture that will examine more than just the school system, but look at the entire nutrition structure of this Province.

That leads me on to the School Nutrition Programme, because I do have some concerns here.  In reply to a question that I posed to the hon Minister, and the reply I received yesterday.  The Minister indicated that a sum of some R76 million is outstanding in the sense that no documents have been received from schools to account for monies that were advanced to these schools.  Now that money includes the R43 million referred to by the Chairperson from the last financial year, but there is more that comes from previous years.  We really have got to get to the bottom of this and be quite clear.  I note that the Minister in his reply to the question is saying that the matter is currently being investigated by Judge Heath and Advocate Weichan and his Commission.

I am pleased about that.  It would have seemed to me much easier to have actually gone to the banking system and said, "Here are the list of schools, tell me how much money is there in the school account".

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR R M BURROWS:  Will they not tell you.

AN HON MEMBER:  They refuse.

MR R M BURROWS:  They refuse.  Thank you.  All right, but I am simply saying that I hope in the very near future we will get to the bottom of this, either by Judge Heath and his Commission or departmentally.

Can the Minister, and here I want to just refer to the departmental report, just let me clearly understand what he means on page 25 of the report, if I may just quote the sentence under Primary School Nutrition Programme:

		School governing bodies in 3 200 schools were trained to take over the scheme and the contract finalised.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR R M BURROWS:  Now I do not know what is meant by the contract finalised.  Sorry, Mr Chairman?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you very much.  If I move on to staffing, sir.  Staffing activities, staffing and cuts, hospitals, we have seen major media propaganda over the issue of the Johannesburg Hospital.  I know that there is no hospital in this Province in any way like that situation, where the superintendent of the hospital could say that he would wish to be in any other place if he were sick than his own hospital.  I know there is no hospital like that.  But the cuts that we are seeing will have the effect of affecting the quality and standard within hospitals.

Here I must single out a hospital with which I have got a very close connection, because I aided it during the years when I was a member of Parliament for Pinetown, and that is the Mariannhill Mission Hospital.  My concern here, sir, is that whilst a cut of 46% has been imposed on its 1997/1998 subsidy, that hospital is actually cheaper than a State hospital.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR R M BURROWS:  And it is one of those connections we need to make, that subsidies are in fact cost effective.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Next on the list is hon member Mr Bhengu, who will address the House for 10 minutes.

MR G E BHENGU:  Members of Parliament, we are here today again to be confronted with a subject that I think is very serious, and difficult to solve.  Having listened to each and every member of the House, I have my doubts as much as everybody else has his doubts.

Sir, the system that we have, should be looked into in a new fashionable manner.  Mr Chairman, hon members, Cabinet, and colleagues, the reason for reading this, is just to remind the people that when you come to the end of the road you sometimes do not know whether you must just run away, go forward, go to the side, or perhaps just wait where you are.  We have a problem.  We live with the people who have confidence in us, all of us.  If we cannot answer these people, the problem will be upon our shoulders.

The Government of National Unity has got to solve this problem.  It is not the Minister of this Parliament, but it is the Government of National Unity, who on their own decided to do things without consulting the Government of the Province.

It is then a disappointment if the mission statement is not followed, as we know, our most important task is to work for the people, which is a very strict instruction from both the leaders of the ANC and IFP.  Our leader, Dr M G Buthelezi, has always told us to go and work for the people.  His pride is to see us working for the people.  Today we appear not to know whether we are working for the people or not working for the people.

Health is crumbling.  We do not have anything better, as Dr Luthuli said, that it is not an easy answer whether this will be done now or a little later.  I stay in KwaMashu and I have seen very, very serious things happen.  People get up early in the morning, as early as 4 o'clock, to go and queue at a clinic for help.  They wait until 4 o'clock when the clinic closes then they go back home again with no hope.

But what I would like to say, sir, is that, is it not possible for this Parliament to make arrangements with the Government of National Unity to try and make them see the problems we are faced with?  We are facing quite a problem.  There is a lot wrong.  I always go to the places where I have been told there are problems with health.  I am sure all of you do the same, that when there is a problem, you go to that place to see with your own eyes whether that is true or not.

I was very surprised to read in the newspaper about the state of health in the KwaMashu area.  These clinics cater for 1,8 million people in and around KwaMashu.  When I followed this up closely, I discovered quite shocking issues.  This report will be handed to you, sir, for you to try and correct on this list what you can.  What you cannot do you cannot do.  [LAUGHTER]  The people that elected us are the people that voted us in to this House,  these people are in fact our bosses.  We are here because of them, and when they ask questions, and we cannot answer them, then we do have a problem.

With the knowledge that the Minister of Health is very concerned maybe much more than the people in the Government of National Unity, it is my prayer, sir, to see that one day an answer will be given to this controversy.

TRANSLATION:  It is difficult, Chairperson, it is difficult, members of Parliament, to say where we are really going, if it is like this, really, where are we going?  If we are like this, are we going to drown, or are we going to float?  If we are going to float, what is to become of us, what will we do, what will we do if we are afloat?  Is there not a plan that can be made to speak with leaders of political parties, Dr Buthelezi and Dr Mandela, so that they can meet and exchange ideas to see if there is a plan that can be made so that the situation can be cleansed and not harm us.  Even now, Chairperson, it has really harmed us in many areas, because people are now speaking various languages available.  We trust that God willing, he will protect us, because if we are not protected by God, then we have no hope.  All beautiful things are given to us by God, no matter how intelligent you are, or how much money you have, or how rich you are, but it is only God that will save us from any problems.

I am asking you, Chairperson, about the situation in Health.  Health is the thing that controls the state of a person.  If you are hungry without money and you are ill, then you see the problem that confronts you and you do not even know what you will do about it.  A problem without a solution.  Because in the end, you end up going to steal, getting arrested, or being shot to death.  [LAUGHTER]

I am saying, Chairperson, these hospitals, like Polyclinic, is there not maybe a way of expanding them?  They are so small to an extent that if I invite this House, asking them to visit so that we can see these places we are talking about, we can experience astonishment of the first order.  Because another good thing is that where there is crying and wailing, as a House, we should rise and go and find out what is really being said.

There are a lot of people who are also complaining that really, when and how will they ever see Parliament.  Maybe the people should speak for themselves, because they see that we do not speak about what they want, we speak what we like to speak about.  That is not true, Chairperson.  Every time we make a speech, we try to speak about what people have sent us to speak about, because our work is about people.  Chairperson, we were oppressed for 30 years.  We got out of that and entered freedom, but it is surprising if even during the time of freedom, there remains problems like those that took place while we were oppressed by the Nationalist Government.

It is my wish, Chairperson, that this House should be in prayer and make this a success so that we can really see that our problem is really solved, because if this problem is not solved, many things will go wrong.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [The hon member has one minute].

MR G E BHENGU:  

TRANSLATION:  That is why, Chairperson, I say I warn the National Government that the train should not sink.  If the train sinks, all the engineers are called in to sit down together with them to talk, to see whether there is a captain present who can make the train move, to carry on with the work for which it was created.  In fact, the train is created precisely to carry people to destinations of their choice.

I know, Chairperson, that our biggest problem is that we are not truthful.  We are not obviously truthful that among ourselves we delude one another and not tell one another the truth, and when at the end we are hurt.  But if we had spoken the truth while we were together, the situation would be better than what we think.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: The hon member's time is over.  The member can sit down].

MR G E BHENGU: [I trust, Chairperson, that we will co-operate to make the situation better.  That people can be healthy with their children in their homes.  Thank you].

THE CHAIRPERSON: [We are very grateful].  Our next speaker will be the hon member Miss Buthelezi, who will speak for 10 minutes.

MISS M N BUTHELEZI: 
TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Chairperson.  It is just that what is painful is that I am speaking after a member of Parliament who does not know whether he is sinking or floating.  I am not going to respond to what he said, because he too is not sure that what he said is true or not.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please! 

MISS M N BUTHELEZI:  Mr Chairperson, I want to remind the hon member Mr Matthee, that he should be ashamed of their ~Apartheid~ policies, because they are the cause of disadvantage to black people.  Whether he likes it or not, restructuring and transformation will continue.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MISS M N BUTHELEZI:  I want also to respond to the hon member Mrs Mohlaka, that COSATU did not invade any hospital, but COSATU was fighting for the rights of workers.  COSATU is here to stay, and it will always fight for the workers' rights no matter what.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MISS M N BUTHELEZI:  Some members of this House lack information on the objectives of the trade unions.  That is why they are always complaining.  COSATU has opened its doors for communication and information.

Mr Chairperson, the African National Congress made a commitment to improve the quality of life of all South Africans.  The Minister and his Department are fulfilling that.  Transformation and restructuring the health services is the core of providing a better life for all.  We realise that to be healthy requires more than health facilities, personnel and medicines.  We need to eradicate poverty in order to improve the lives of people.  The primary school feeding programme was introduced, with the view of turning it into a community based integrated nutrition programme, that was sustainable and would contribute towards the eradication of poverty by meeting the basic needs.

The nutrition programme has reached 14 239 schools in our country, and served 4,9 million children, based on February's statistics.  We, however, wish to state once more our view that a more sustainable solution to this problem will derive from implementation of a wide anti-poverty built around household food security.  The improvement of the nutritional status of the population should be a major focus and could be done through the establishing of community based nutrition projects.

In the past few years initiatives to improve primary school performance through improved nutrition and health have identified parasitic diseases as one of the main causes of malnutrition and illness among school children in our country.  The primary school nutrition intervention strategy has been offered as an option to communities during the process of initiating the community based nutrition programme.  The intervention includes a variety of activities, other than feeding.  The activities include a nutrition promotion campaign, a lunch box campaign, school food gardens and parasite control.

A study carried out in the Nyuswa area in KwaZulu-Natal found that parasitic infection combined with nutritional deficiencies impair the efficiency of the cognitive processes.  Normal growth rate has been observed as stunted in children following drug treatment for parasitic infections, even without an improvement of diet.  In this Province, the programme which is supplemented by the support of the Department of Health has the capacity to reach nearly 1,5 million children in more than 3 000 primary schools.  The aims of these programmes are to:

1.	Effect a permanent reduction in the prevalence and intensity of parasitic infections in KwaZulu-Natal.

2.	Derive additional benefits such as the reduction in diarrhoeal diseases, through improved hygiene and a reduction in micro-nutrient deficiencies caused by parasitic infections.

3.	Forge co-operative links between parents, teachers, and health personnel in combating poor health among children.

4.	Make it easier for children to learn by making them healthier.

There are a number of disadvantages or constraints that later lead to problems in the social, emotional and cognitive development of the child.  Treating children for parasitic infection will not necessarily produce better concentration in the school, but a combination of improved health and freedom from short term hunger and more interesting lessons would have a significantly beneficial effect.

Two powerful social factors that affect child health and development is the degree of poverty in the family, and the degree of urbanisation and lifestyle.  Poverty is associated with nutritional deficits, lack of essential services, and lack of information.  Children of poor parents are subjected to different stresses in different environments.  In some urban informal settlements there is a high risk of physical and psychological abuse, because children lack the protection afforded by extended families.  The major threat in rural areas is the lack of food security.

The differences in climate and resultant flora and fauna account for further local differences in the risk factors for children.  In coastal areas the ever present bilharzia parasite depletes the energy of school going children.  On the other hand, the abundant vegetation makes it possible for them to eat a variety of indigenous fruits and vegetables.  Inland in the higher and colder areas, worm infections are not such a problem, but in winter, when crops are scarce and most resources are devoted to keeping warm, children's nutritional needs cannot be met.

In the next century there are likely to be more children in schools at one time than in human history.  The majority of them will be living in areas where parasites will continue to be a problem.  Research programmes should continue in the context that disease control programmes are necessary in order to make informed policy decisions concerning the planning and delivery of health services in consultation with affected communities.

According to the report, 755 206 learners in 1 490 schools received food assistance during 1997.  864 678 learners in 2 125 schools have been reached since January 1998.  205 school food gardens have been developed.  Local employment opportunities have been created by suppliers.  Reports from regions also indicate:

1.	Improved school attendance.
2.	Decrease in drop out.
3.	Improved concentration and alertness levels.
4.	General health improvements.

The parasite control programme should be implemented soon to further improve the nutritional status of primary school learners.  Payments should be made to school governing bodies on submission on monthly expenditure claims.  No advances should be used.  This will be in an effort to minimise unaccounted funds.  This new mode will reduce the temptation to use the Primary School Nutrition Programme Funds for other school activities.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MISS M N BUTHELEZI: TRANSLATION:  To answer the question of the hon Dingila that he asked yesterday, last year, during the same debate of the Health vote, the Minister has said that the hon and his region, as he is a member of the Committee, should account for the money they had used.  Maybe it would be nice for the hon Dingila to tell this House whether he has accounted.  T/E

This programme should be monitored by both the Departments of Health and Education.

Hon Minister, and your Department, we thank you.  Keep up your good work and your commitment.  I thank you, Chair.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I have to now call upon the hon member Mr Edwards, to address the House for six minutes.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  The hon Minister, and management and the Department of Health, I believe need to be complimented on the annual report which contains a wealth of information.

While the budget of some R4,46 billion shows an increase of 20%, it is, however, 20% less than the actual projected expenditure for this past year.  We all know that the Province experienced a budget overrun of some R700 million, and is R1,2 billion less than the amount requested for the 1998/1999 year in order to meet the ever increasing demands for health care by an alarming growth in population; mostly natural, but also by many illegal immigrants and cross-border patients, and also through additional services demanded by the National Minister in national directives, but without providing the adequate funds.

The greatest concern in the budget before us relates, I believe, to personnel.  It relates to the policy and rationale in providing better services with inadequate and over-burdened personnel.

The working conditions and remuneration of personnel in virtually every category in the establishment of some 59 000 gives great cause for concern.  Last year cuts of some 28 000 nursing staff posts were envisaged, that did not actually happen, but this year 3 363 nursing cadre posts were abolished, increasing even more the already intolerable workload.  Staff, already amongst the lowest paid of professionals, had meagre salary adjustments granted, of between a miserly 3% and a meagre 7,5%.  Due to financial constraints, merit award adjustments could not be made either. 

We owe a very special debt of gratitude to medical, including the Cuban doctors in this, nursing administration, and general staff for their dedication and devotion to duty in these very traumatic times.  If it were not for these wonderful people, our health services would have already collapsed.  We now ask that they sacrifice even more.

I know of many sacrifices and extra hours put in at no personal reward.  It is pure dedication.  The medical superintendent of one of our Midlands hospitals is forced to work many additional hours in surgery, and this is a common phenomenon, a modern day Florence Nightingale.

Talking of Midlands hospitals, after several years of workshops, meetings, countless regional plans for rationalisation, new proposals have been put forward for local, district, regional and tertiary definition.  At a recent meeting the hon Minister, Dr Mkhize, announced plans to reorganise hospitals in the Pietermaritzburg region.  I realise that sometimes drastic steps have to be taken in order to economise and rationalise, but a storm has broken out over the decision to downgrade certain services and facilities at Northdale Hospital.

Rightly or wrongly, a new plan has been furnished and formulated, but it appears without adequate consultation with the community.  They are incensed that the nurses college has been closed down, that other facilities are to be closed down, or transferred to Grey's and Edendale Hospitals, such as surgery, orthopaedics and high risk obstetrics.  The biggest complaint is the life risk patients face in their referral to other institutions, and the doubts about such decision making if not done in time. 

It is considered by many highly experienced hospital administrators that total health care, other than the very highly specialised procedures, should be provided by each of the local hospitals to provide optimum health care, and still they will be economical.  I asked the Minister to reconsider the move that could be to the detriment of health care of our community.

On school nutrition, others have spoken on it, the Primary School Nutrition Programme is a matter which gives me, and should give all members who believe in good governance, great cause for concern.  Funded from the now infamous RDP budget, this programme originally was under the control of the Department of Education.

Due to a total collapse in financial control, and also to monitor the nutritional content, the Portfolio Committee was told that the programme had been transferred to the Department of Health.  However, the administration and control is clearly a continuing nightmare.

In July last year the Committee was advised, that it had been budgeted to spend some R224 million over two years, that only R83 million had been spent.  The balance was forfeited.  Forensic auditors were appointed to investigate fraud and the lack of administrative capacity.  They advised that some R31 million of the expenditure of R83 million could not be accounted for.  The Department advised that as from August 1997 stricter and far more effective controls had been instituted.

To the dismay of our Committee, a report tabled some two weeks ago showed that the position was even worse than before.  For the 1996/1997 year of the R112 million allocation, advances of only R7,6 million had been made of which R4,5 million had not been accounted for.  So the balance of R94 million was also forfeited.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  The year 1997/1998 allocated a further R112 million of which R51,3 million, more had been spent this year, had been advanced, but vouchers and proof of spending of R43,4 million or 85% of the spending could not be accounted for.

The Committee was told that certain of the records had been destroyed in a fire at the Commercial City building where they housed their computers.  Further, the report of the forensic auditors of September last year had been referred to the National Minister for further investigation.

Because of poor control and administration, many children desperately in need of the nutrition programme have not benefitted at all.  Over the period an average of only 600 000 out of 1,5 million children have been reached.

Further, it appears that a coverup in not releasing the auditor's report, is hiding fraudulent expenditure and speculation of purchase of private motor vehicles and personal goods by departmental officers and staff at certain schools.

For the sake of Good Governance, the immediate investigation of the present expenditure and release of the auditor's report I believe is essential and I hope the Minister does that.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.  Thank you very much.

MR B V EDWARDS: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mrs Ford, to address the House for 10 minutes.

MRS O E FORD:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Through you, to start off with, I would like to congratulate the hon Minister on his presentation today.  I would also like to thank him for the gifts we get from the Health Department every year, but there is just one problem I have, there are 365 days in a year, not five, sir.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MRS O E FORD:  Always, or an escort.  Mr Chairman, to get down to something a little bit more serious.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please!  Let us allow Mrs Ford to speak.

MRS O E FORD:  The Policy and Mission Statement of the Department of Health is to be admired.  The pity of it is that it cannot, or is not, always carried out.

The ethics of nursing seems to have been either forgotten or swept under the carpet.  How nurses, those whom we have always considered to be the caring, nurturing members of our society can allow themselves to behave the way we see them do is beyond my understanding.  If they are not toyi-toying on our TV screens, then they are ignoring the basic tenet of their training, which is service.

We have, in the Estcourt district, a number of mobile clinics and vehicles that transport the clinic staff out to the rural clinics.  This would be a fantastic service if it was only implemented properly.  Unfortunately, more time is spent patronising the local supermarkets, than is actually spent attending to their patients.  When incidents of this nature are reported to their superiors, and then mentioned to them, the staff make sure the vehicles are parked in a different area, and so the whole story starts all over again.

At the clinics, medicines are not available or, as has been reported to me by the patients at these clinics, they are told they have to pay for the medicines.  This from a Department whose National Minister, Mr Chairman, promised free medical care to all children under the age of six and all pregnant women.

At our local hospital, blankets, sheets, pillows, and disposable nappies disappear from the wards at a rate of knots.  I shudder to think what will happen when the stocks are totally diminished.  Will patients at a State hospital have to take their own linen with them?  If so, who will be responsible for the laundering of this linen, and what will happen to emergency cases?  Will we all have to carry linen around with us "just in case"?

A very worrying situation has recently been reported to me.  The Primary Health Care Workers have advised mothers with young children to go to the local private clinic for HIB vaccinations.  This is because of the deaths of six babies in the Estcourt area in the last few weeks.  The State clinics do not have this vaccine as, I have been told, it is not on the Essential Drugs List.  Each one of those mothers has had to pay R65 for the vaccine.  Surely this type of vaccine should be available in the case of emergencies to avoid an epidemic.  Where, Mr Chairman, is the free medical care for children under the age of six, that the people in this country were promised?  I understand the limitations of an inadequate budget, but something must be done to fulfil promises.

The hon Minister in his address has stated that the Department has plans to train more Community Health Care Workers and the development of this discipline to serve the District Health System.

What, may I ask, has happened to those Village Health Workers who were trained by the former KwaZulu Government?  Can these people not be re-trained in this scheme?  Surely this would be a quicker method of training, as they have had some experience, and we would achieve trained people on the ground in a shorter time.

Mr Chairman, there is a saying, "The more things change the more they stay the same", and I sincerely hope that this is not going to be the future of health in our beloved Province.

In closing, Mr Chairman, I would like to offer the hon Minister, as I do all the hon Ministers, my sympathy and best wishes in the year ahead.  How you, sir, and your ministerial colleagues are going to manage to stay within your budgets, heaven alone knows.  Good luck.  Thank you, sir.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Ford.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mrs Downs, to address the House for eight minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  If I could start off by firstly commending the Minister highly, and the Cabinet for recognising the fact that AIDS in our Province is a major problem, and it is most unusual, hon colleagues, to have a political priority put on AIDS.  It is unprecedented in Africa.  Most Governments actually sweep it under the carpet and ignore it.  I really want to give praise where praise is due.  I think that is also in no small way due to the fact that our Premier is also a medical doctor and understands these things.

I am going to devote my whole speech to AIDS, because it is something that totally concerns me.  Unfortunately political weight is not enough when we have got the kind of AIDS figures that we have.  Some are saying that it is possibly as high as 20% in this Province, and if we have got a population of around 8 million, we are looking at 2 million people who are HIV positive, or a possibility of 2 million people.  I do not think anybody is actually exactly aware of what the AIDS figures are, but if you calculate it out that way.

That means that we need to take heed, and we need to stop treating AIDS like a human rights issue, and treat it like a health issue which is where it belongs.  I am not talking about negating the human rights aspects of it at all, but what I am saying is leave those to the lawyers.  When we sit down and we have to do our programmes to deal with AIDS, we actually have to look at it as a health issue.  If we had practised proper epidemiological methods when AIDS was first discovered, possibly we would not have been in the situation that we are in today.

The answer that is being promoted by the National Health Department, and therefore this Department in fighting AIDS, I believe falls far short.  AIDS education is very good and laudable.  We need to continue those programmes, but unless it is real and it looks at the real situation in the real world, we are not going to do anything.  I just want to break off briefly from what I have written, to describe something to you, because it is time we really got passionate about AIDS.

I saw an AIDS presentation that was done for me by a municipal nurse, who took photographs of AIDS patients in the various stages of AIDS.  I want to tell you that that presentation changed my life.  I do not mean that tritely, I mean it really changed my life, when I saw what actually happened to an AIDS patient.  I saw that when somebody has a tumour it does not just mean a tumour, it means a growth the size of a golf ball.  In badly nourished people, and people whose immune systems are already compromised, suppurates pus and ooze all over the place, and those people are being looked after by their families at home.  I saw an eight year old child covered from head to toe with herpes.  Her genitalia were not even recognisable as genitalia because they had been so eaten away by the herpes virus which was an opportunistic thing of AIDS.  I saw how a person was lying emaciated with diarrhoea - I wept, and if anybody else saw that, if they did not throw up their lunch or weep, then they have not got a heart.

That is the reality of AIDS.  This Hollywood thing about people dying nicely in their bed is a total myth and garbage.  The reality is that these are real people and they are dying in pain and suffering in ignorance.  It is time that we took proper action.  I want to say that for our young people, I believe that it is foolish in the extreme to promote condom usage as the only way of preventing AIDS.  There are some statistics, and unfortunately I could not find the South African statistics.  If the Minister has them I would love to have them.  The only statistics I could find were of the United States.  Unless education in educated populations, and if we face up to it, that is our population that is being affected, condoms failed for up to 33% of the time for pregnancy.  So goodness knows what could happen with AIDS.  Because of improper usage, because of ignorance, because of re-usage, not properly storing it, whatever reason, in the uneducated population 33%, and you can only fall pregnant three or four days in a month and you can catch AIDS every single day.  Condoms were designed to collect semen and not the AIDS virus.  In certain condoms channels were found 10 microns wide, the AIDS virus as one.  It is still better than nothing, but it is not by any means a safe thing to do.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Doctors were asked whether they would have sex with an HIV positive person, using a condom.  To a man they all said that they would not.  We need to start at the beginning.  In Uganda where the AIDS epidemic has spread much further than ours, they are starting with abstinence.  They advocate monogamous, faithful relationships, and then after that they talk about safe sex.

We need to start there.  We also need to show our children the kind of things that I saw.  In a recent AIDS awareness programme in Empangeni some teenage girls who said that they were not sexually active were asked why.  They said that their mothers were nurses and had taken them to the hospitals to show them the reality, the real truth about AIDS and what it does to people.  It literally scared the life into them, because they are not sexually active, because of what they saw.  I believe that we need to take a radical new approach to actually fight the scourge of AIDS in our Province.

I will not have time unfortunately to talk about the risk to the medical workers, and what I would like to see for rape victims.  They should be getting AZT and invirocidal douches as a matter of course to prevent AIDS.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I have not got any more time, and I am sorry about that because there is a lot that I would like to share.  Perhaps I can share it with the Minister afterwards.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Mkhwanazi, for eight minutes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Ngiyabonga, Mphathisihlalo.  The issue of health is very, very important.  In fact, when you have no money to educate the people, you have many uneducated people.  When you do not have money for agriculture, perhaps you have starving people.  When you do not have enough money for health, you have bodies.

This is very, very serious and the issue of health is very close to my heart.  I have never spent one night in hospital.  I have always been healthy.  I have a number of members of my family, including my wife who is in hospital today, and therefore the question of health is very close to me.  When the Minister says he has no money for medicine, he has no money to employ more doctors and he has no money to employ more nurses, it is a very serious matter.  The doctor and his Department is a barrier between the living and the dead.  Therefore the barrier must be built very strong.  

I would also like to echo the words of my colleagues in congratulating the Minister and his staff for the work that they have done, and for the wonderful report, and for the gifts that he has given us, although some of these gifts are irrelevant, because of our age.  [LAUGHTER]

I know the Minister personally.  I know how concerned he is.  I have made my own personal appeals to him in cases where people have been in trouble or have been sick.  I want to appeal to my colleagues, like I think I did yesterday with the Education budget, I do not believe, and I disagree that we should debate such issues for political gain, or to make political statements, because we are dealing with a very serious matter.  My party, the PAC, has nothing but support for the Minister and his staff.  We know, that the people who are at a higher level of life do not get sick because they eat well, they sleep well and they have everything well.  The people I represent, the poor people, the poorest of the poor, depend on the doctors and the nurses.  So I appreciate all that the Minister has said.

My neighbour here has talked at length about AIDS..  [You see, Africans, I am going to speak the truth like a dying man.  AIDS is a terrible disease].  It is a terrible disease and we should be very serious about it.  I am not talking about the people who die, or the people who are affected and get sick, I am talking about the people who are alive.  How can we live when the disease AIDS is at the door of life? [It stays at the door of life].

It closes the door to the greatest gift which God gave only to human beings. 

Now what about our children?  How are our children going to grow? 
TRANSLATION:  Those who can understand me, will understand.  Those who do not understand me, will not.  It is only human beings who are alive who have been endowed with this gift.  Cows, dogs and everything else do not know about this gift I am talking about.  Then AIDS goes and stands at the door.  Now, how about our children, how are our children going to grow?  You see, I was popular with women, I was alive.  My wife knows that and my children know that.  The youth, leading a good life, not a life of undesirable actions, but a good life.  How are the children going to live?  T/E

Really, this is a very serious matter, and it is worse because it cannot be treated.  There is no medicine that can treat AIDS.  The condom is rubbish.

I went to speak to the young men there who are our security officers.  When I told them about condoms they say [they say, an old person, that thing means that you are not doing what you are supposed to be doing if you are using a condom]  and they believe it.  The young people believe that they should not use the condom.  They want to continue as if nothing is wrong.  When there are deaths you cannot blame them because this disease stays at the door of our lives.  I am talking about the people who must live and the people who must grow.

Well, we know the door.  That is what I want to stress, that we must really take this issue very seriously.  I really do not know what we are going to do about it.  I want to appeal to those who pray, perhaps it is only the prayer, other than the medicines, that a miracle must take place in order to help us.

Having said that, I sympathise with the Minister when he said that because of the budget the services will have to be trimmed.  How can you trim the services?  You are removing the wall between us and death.  That is not your problem, but it is a problem for all of us.  For instance, the Minister said there are vacant posts which cannot be filled.  We must look at this very seriously.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Finally, talking about the bursaries.  I think we need to train more doctors.  We appreciate the work that is being done by the Cuban doctors, but I think we need to train our own doctors.  I know only 20, I now have information that they have gone to Cuba for training.  On what basis were they sent?  What was the choice?  Was it politically motivated or was it health motivated?  Did they come from one party or did they come from several parties, or did they come from people who are not attached?  I think it is important to train more doctors, because one day Cuba will recall their doctors. People are very protective of what belongs to them]. 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  I support your vote.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I have pleasure in calling upon the hon member Mrs Galea, for five minutes.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Chairperson.  The Health Department has been severely underfunded and has to take some drastic steps in reorganising their priorities.  The hon Minister, Dr Mkhize, and the officials of the Health Department need to be complimented on the budget speech and report.  Also Dr Mtalane and the Portfolio Committee for their contributions over the year.

The National Party believes that a good health service should be within reach of all South Africans.  Health care must be affordable and accessible to all.  Therefore it is rather of concern to the National Party that the nurses college at Northdale has already been closed, and some specialist departments are going to be transferred and downgraded to Edendale and Grey's Hospital.

Recently, I went to a meeting of Women in Government and I was asked:  what are you doing about AIDS, and my talk today I will just dedicate it mainly to AIDS.  Many people have spoken on it, and I fully support the hon member Mrs Downs and her concerns.

HIV/AIDS remains rampant in the Province.  I will once again congratulate the Ministers of KwaZulu-Natal Cabinet Initiative on AIDS, whereby members pledged their commitment to fighting AIDS through individuals and communities, and to participate in AIDS control, calling for behaviourial change.  This behaviourial change and destigmatising of AIDS is most important because there are some people, and I have met a lot of wonderful people who have AIDS.  The way the people shun them, and they are lonely people, and they need our support.

The five AIDS resource centres are most welcome because here care, counselling and support can be given to the victims.

According to the United Nation's figures, at present it is estimated that over 20 million people worldwide are infected with HIV/AIDS.  Of these 9 million are women.  To date 1,5 million children have been infected, and since the beginning of the epidemic, over 5 million adults and children are estimated to have died of AIDS.  Approximately 7500 people become infected every day - that is five people become infected every minute.  I am only talking for, well I had six minutes, but I have only five.  So five five's are 25.  So many people have been infected during this short talk.

If this epidemic trend continues to the end of this decade, it is estimated that between 30 to 40 million adults will have been infected with HIV by the year 2000.  Of these, 60% will be in Sub-Saharan Africa.

Unless a cure is found, roughly a third of young adults in KwaZulu-Natal are going to die from AIDS over the next 15 years, leaving three-quarters of a million orphans behind.  That is an enormous problem that we have to face.

At this stage, roughly 750 000 people in the Province are infected.  The number of people suffering from AIDS-related illnesses is relatively small, yet it is enough to account for more than half the medical in-patients at general hospitals around Pietermaritzburg.

It has been repeatedly stated that the only way AIDS can be beaten is by preventing if from spreading.  I am most probably telling you things that you know, but I just want people to be made aware.  That is why I wore my sticker today.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MRS C E GALEA:  How can we do so?  We can do this by asking four questions.

1.	Have I eliminated the high risk of sexual activities from my life?
2.	Am I committed to safe sex?
3.	Am I helping my family and my neighbours change their perceptions and behaviour too?
4.	Am I fighting against discrimination and upholding the human rights of people who have AIDS and HIV?

In closing, Chairperson, I ask that every portfolio committee puts AIDS on their agenda, and gets the relevant person from the Inter-departmental Committee to make a presentation so that they know what that department is doing, and what is happening so that we can be made aware, and all do much more than we are actually doing at present for those who have AIDS.  I thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  Well done.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Galea.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mrs Millin, to address the House for 10 minutes.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Before I say anything, we hear an awful lot about the legacy of ~Apartheid~, I think we should hear a lot more about the legacy of sanctions and disinvestment.

As with all the other Ministers and their respective departments, the Health or should I say Sickness [LAUGHTER] portfolio has suffered cutbacks in funding, which inevitably will affect service delivery, and whether the rash promise made to mothers and their babies for free health care from birth to six years old can be fulfilled, remains a very unlikely possibility.  When the hon Minister says whatever he does, he feels between a rock and a hard place, any reasonable person, and I am reasonable, Minister, I promise you, any reasonable person can sympathise with the Minister.  Minister Miller, our new Minister of Finance, has quite clearly said on record that the overall allocation to KwaZulu-Natal is inadequate, and that is probably putting it mildly, and clearly the effects of such underfunding are particularly felt in health care, as well as in the areas of education and welfare, for these are the areas directly affecting the people, and more specifically the poorest of the poor, as we all know.

Of great concern to all is how the cash crisis is affecting the wholesale closing of wards, at hospitals so vital to the large communities they serve.  One example being King Edward VIII, as reported in the Sunday Times of 8 March of this year, where terminally ill AIDS patients suffering from secondary diseases, as well as others with incurable diseases like terminal cancer, are being sent home to die.

Another institution, and I am sorry the hon member Mr Burrows is not here, because he referred to St Mary's Hospital of Mariannhill.  This institution was reported in the Mercury of 12 May, just the other day, of having many beds lying empty as a result of the subsidy cuts, resulting in despondent medical staff having to turn patients away.  This particular institution is the only district hospital between Durban and Pietermaritzburg.  It is a State subsidised hospital and it is dependent on Government to provide virtually 85% of its funding.  It has received a whopping 34% decrease in funding compared with Addington's 15,2% and the R K Khan at 11,4%.  For St Mary's at Mariannhill that percentage translates into a figure of R10 million.

One cannot imagine the effect on caring doctors and nursing staff, (and it is good to know there are still some who honour the highest ethical conduct in those professions), when they have to turn ill patients away and actually take terminally ill patients out of hospital beds and send (literally, as quoted)
walking skeletons home to die.  That was the comment of the medical superintendent at St Mary's, Dr Douglas Ross.  These examples are but a few of many, that are suffering due to the harsh cutbacks.

Yet, Sarafina Zuma is not even rapped over the knuckles for her profligate squandering of R10 to R14 million on her AIDS play, rather, her DG, Dr Olive Shisana is on the menu as the sacrificial lamb, according to an editorial in the Mercury of 12 May, with Zuma ordering her DG to take full responsibility for the financial disaster.  [LAUGHTER]  One might well contend that what Minister Zuma does is not of direct concern to KwaZulu-Natal, but of course, nothing could be further from the truth.  The Sarafina scandal is but one of many debacles in a litany of foolish errors, which have had, and are having a direct and disastrous effect on health care in all the provinces, including our own. 

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Mr Chair.

MRS T E MILLIN:  I will not take any questions.  Afterwards, or if I am given extra time.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Hey, you do not even know whether this is a point of order or a question.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear Dr Sutcliffe please?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  I want to ask the hon Teresa Millin ...

MRS T E MILLIN:  I do not want to take a question, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  She has indicated she is not going to take a question.

MRS T E MILLIN:  I do not want to take a question.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  I have not even concluded yet.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can the hon member please proceed.

MRS T E MILLIN:  With pleasure.  

AN HON MEMBER:  The truth hurts.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS T E MILLIN:  I will take one afterwards, with pleasure.  One has only to think of her pigheaded stubbornness in persisting with the AIDS/Virodene research, fiercely supported by none other than the incumbent President Thabo Mbeki, I might add, when far more scientific, well-researched HIV/AIDS treatment and research presented to Minister Zuma over a year ago, by researchers from Stellenbosch University, lies on her desk unacknowledged.  You cannot defend it!  You cannot defend it!

AN HON MEMBER:  Brrrrr.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Brrrrr you cannot defend it.  [LAUGHTER]  In fact, the Minister's bulldozing tactics ...

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Point of order. 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  Can we hear the point of order from the hon member.

MRS T E MILLIN:  You are wasting my time!

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Mr Chairperson, is "brrrrr" parliamentary?  [LAUGHTER]  That is not from her, but from them?  Is it parliamentary accepted to interject her with "brrrrr"?  [LAUGHTER] 

MRS T E MILLIN:  Mr Chairman, if it is not parliamentary I withdraw it!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, she is on the floor actually.  Can the hon member proceed please.

MRS T E MILLIN:  In fact, the Minister's bulldozing tactics reveal her singular ability to obtain by force what she cannot do by negotiation, and it is this insistence on her part, namely to centralise and control by ministerial "diktat", and she is busily engaged in gathering all those powers to herself, in order to achieve that goal, that inevitably affects all health care at every level of Government.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MRS T E MILLIN:  Our hon Minister here may recall, I am finished now about that, at the Health Portfolio Committee meeting held in ~Ulundi~ on 4 March, shortly before the official opening of Parliament, that I tabled a document, personally handing him a copy containing proposed amendments to health regulations dealing with abortion on demand, euphemistically known as termination of pregnancy, and more specifically clause 8.2 of said regulations.  At the opening of Parliament the hon Minister volunteered the information to me that he had referred the proposed amendments to the National Directorate of Health, and I am sure this House, together with the organisation known as "Doctors For Life", would be most interested to hear whether these proposed amendments to a "Life and Death" clause are receiving the necessary attention.  That is a very serious question I put to you, Minister.

A related concern, and there are various reports to corroborate these concerns, that increasing pressure is being brought to bear on conscientiously objecting doctors, gynaecologists and midwives to perform abortions, and deal with the after-effects of such.  Even though such pressure is in violation of the medical fraternities' code of ethics and our rainbow Constitution, I might add.

In the Reproductive Rights Alliance magazine, which we all get, or, at least all the Health Committee get, we all received (I think) this particular one, (this is March 1998), the head of obstetrics and gynaecology at Cecilia Makiwane Hospital, in the Eastern Cape confirms as much by stating:

	That if those concerned do not participate in performing abortion on demand, doctors and midwives will be officially discouraged from entering gynaecological training programmes, citing similar examples in Sweden, when introduction of TOP was introduced in 1976, with considerable opposition from doctors and nurses.

And I will just quote here:

	This was gradually overcome by peer pressure whereby, health care providers were subjected to informal as well as official urging to participate to do their share with everyone else and, also by official discouragement of doctors and midwives, who enter gynaecological training programmes, unless they were prepared to undertake TOPS.

Well, that is pretty clear.

Yet another of Sarafina Zuma's schemes is to ultimately outlaw smoking.  Now being a non-smoker myself, such a banning is immaterial.  However, one is unavoidably struck by the proposed draconian prohibition of smoking, and her professed concern for tender youths' state of health, should they wish to start smoking, and yet, the killing of untold thousands of unborn infants, with our infamous abortion law is carried out with relentless repetition.  I am ... it is just ... you know, so crazy.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS T E MILLIN:  I put it to you, hon Minister, that abortion is not only killing untold numbers of unborn babies, but worse, it is dehumanising us all.  It is killing the very soul of this nation, and now I am really serious please.  I am not joking.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS T E MILLIN:  Let us rather divert abortion funding to a nationwide programme of pregnancy-prevention, through birth control, family planning, State-subsidised vasectomies or sterilisation.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MRS T E MILLIN:  How much more time?  Right.  Time constraints prevent one.  However, one other concern briefly is the increasing incidents of ambulance hijacking with yet another report in the press a few days ago.  Can anyone tell us please what on earth stolen ambulances are being used for?

Hon Minister, in short, in spite of your upbeat reporting and your caution against pessimism, paranoia and a misguided media leading us towards disaster, the reality is that everything in the garden is far from rosy.  It behoves us all to acknowledge and admit this frightening reality, in order to equip ourselves properly to tackle the enormous challenges in health in our Province, and I only can wish you the best in doing that, Minister.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Millin.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Dlamini, to address the House for 20 minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  The opening statement of the hon Mr Matthee of the National Party was that the South African health system is in a mess.  He is as pessimistic as they come, and he has been joined by a few pessimists in this House.  But this reminds me of a definition I heard from somebody about a pessimist.  He said a pessimist is a person who describes 12 noon as midnight.  He went on to say an optimist is an inexperienced pessimist, and I said I would rather remain an inexperienced pessimist.  Chairperson, we have also enjoyed the old, old Sarafina story or song from the hon Mrs Millin, in her unparalleled performance.

The promotion of health of all South African people is certainly going to be an arduous task.  As we talk about the Health budget, we need to bear in mind that health is not just the absence of diseases.  I wish to reiterate what I said earlier during this debate, that health is an investment in human wellness, physically, mentally and spiritually.  The legacy, I underline, the legacy of the health system of yesteryear is going to be with us for quite some time, particularly because of the following.

The heavy debt we have inherited from the erstwhile Government.  Those who benefitted from the debt while they basked in the glory of ~Apartheid~ will protest that we are dwelling on the debt saga to the extent of making it an excuse for little progress.

MR R M BURROWS:  I will send you Trevor Manuel's chapter on it.

MR F DLAMINI:  Let me tell you, Chairperson, the achievements made by this Government and by our Provincial Health Department in particular, within the past four years could not be made by the National Party in 40 years, because they did not have the political will to do so.  In fact, their fascist idealogy was to wish the indigenous people of this country to disappear from the face of earth.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  What do you say, Theresa?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please!

MR F DLAMINI:  The Deputy State President, on his trip to the Far East, addressed the question of freeing the whole of Africa from the bondage of debt that is singularly responsible for the socio-economic underdevelopment of this continent.

The transformation process in the health system seeks to dismantle the inefficient, inequitable, elitist and inaccessible health system of the racist regime.  The current budget at national level sends a very strong message that the Government wants to make resources available to meet the basic needs.  We have noted that there has been an increase in the budgetary allocation to policy and planning at national level.  This is to give direction and purpose to the total Transformation of the Health system in this country.  We wish to congratulate the Provincial Department of Health for the appointment of the transformation manager.  The explanatory note in the National Minister's memorandum reads thus, I quote:

	The programme expects to develop a strategic and operational health policy and to effectively plan the allocation of health resources in accordance with RDP requirements.

In the words of the Minister, "money must follow the function".

It has become abundantly clear in South African politics that whilst democratic organisations are fighting for transformation, the reactionary forces seek to perpetuate the division between the haves and the have nots.  There is transparent hypocrisy in some of our contemporaries who claim to cherish democratic ideals whilst in fact crying wolf and foul at every transformation programme.

AN HON MEMBER:  Millin.

MR F DLAMINI:  The National Ministry of Health ought to be congratulated for initiating the two ground breaking Bills that were passed towards the end of 1997, namely the Medicine and Related Substances Control Amendment Bill, and the Medical, Dental and Supplementary Health Service Professions Amendment Bill.

During the debates on these Bills, all the reactionary forces were against the Medical and Related Substances Control Amendment Bill.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR F DLAMINI:  Which sought to promote generic medicines and thus make medicines affordable to the poor majority of this country who need medication most, and the problems stated by Mrs Ford would then be minimised.  The other debate where disappointing views were expressed was on the Medical, Dental and Supplementary Health Service Professions Amendment Bill.  There was loud protestation against community service for newly qualified doctors.  People who argued against community service are naturally insensitive to the fact that there is an extreme shortage of doctors, particularly in the rural areas.  The same people are against the idea of engaging foreign doctors to serve our people and these people have the temerity to claim to be patriotic South Africans.

The shortage of doctors have been alleviated by the Government to Government agreements with various countries.  Because of these agreements, the country is now served by 417 Cuban doctors, 62 of whom are here in KwaZulu-Natal, as the Minister advised us, and 22 German and 13 doctors from the United Nations Volunteer Programme.  KwaZulu-Natal has also benefitted from the rest.

It is important to draw peoples' attention to the fact that at present South Africa has got 22 000 doctors of all races, excluding African doctors who only total 3 000.

AN HON MEMBER:  It is a shame.

MR F DLAMINI:  Our Portfolio Committee Chairperson referred to rather stringent selection criteria.  Our Portfolio Committee Chairperson also told us that people are complaining about treatment by the medical professional staff.  I think this is true to a certain degree.  You still come across this.  But whilst I do not in the least condone the poor treatment, I feel that people are not necessarily complaining because of an increase in poor treatment, but because there is now transparency and because there is freedom of speech, people can now talk, they are no longer suppressed.

For your information, because of a dire need for doctors, the Ministry of Health selected 54 students, I remember uBaba uNdonga was not sure how many students have been selected, from the disadvantaged communities to study in countries that appreciate our plight like Cuba.  Ten of the 54 came from KwaZulu-Natal, as we have heard.  Mr Minister, we are particularly pleased that 4 of the 10 are females.  There is no better way of addressing gender inequalities.

We appreciate the efforts made by the Department in terms of Management training.  We hope this training will introduce a paradigm shift from the old mental set to a transformation mode.  Special skills in change management, particularly for matrons and hospital superintendents will facilitate transformation in the health system.

It has been stated over and over again that this Province has a history of underfunding.  Its institutions have a huge backlog of neglect and it emerged from the democratic elections after a sustained decade of low intensity civil war.  This has impacted very negatively on care delivery and ways of equalising funding and levelling the health care playing field.  But perhaps the other very important issue is the one that was raised by the Minister about the number of people that were traumatised during the days of violence when violence was at its highest peak.  But I feel that this is an area that should not only be tackled by the Health Department, but Welfare has a big role to play as well in attending to the question of traumatised children and traumatised adults.

All said and done, you hear a lot of opposition to transformation that I have mentioned, but the same people did not oppose military conscription to defend ~Apartheid~.  There was dead silence.

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes, Millin, luister.

AN HON MEMBER:  You were deadly.

MR F DLAMINI:  Chairperson, in conclusion, we would like to express appreciation to the Superintendent-General and his management team for the key results areas that are on track, as reflected in the Annual Report.  In spite of the stated problems the KwaZulu-Natal Health Department has scored lots of successes, such as an increase in clinic attendance showing 1,2 million per month.  This is proof, Chairperson, that health services have been made accessible to the people.  There has also been an increase of 1,7 million vaccinations given to children and this is undoubtedly an effort to reduce and eventually eradicate child mortality.

With those few words, I would like to echo the appreciation of the Minister's presentation of his report this afternoon, and further say that I join all those who have accepted the budget.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member.  I have pleasure to call upon the hon member Mr Rehman, to address the House for 10 minutes.

MR M F REHMAN:  Thank you, Chairperson.  I will be failing in my duties if I do not compliment our hon Minister of Health, Dr Zweli Mkhize, in these trying times for compiling this budget.  Not forgetting the hard working, dedicated Secretary-General, Professor Ronnie Green-Thompson.  For the last four years I have kept reminding him that he comes from my hometown of Newcastle, and he still owes us a visit.  Also the senior officials who are always willing to assist you in solving any problems that arise in the Health Department.  I thank you.

I remember when the hon Minister replied to the Crisis Committee members for Education in Truro House, when he mentioned, and I quote:

	You all are fighting for cleaning services and teachers.  Wait till I present my Health budget.  I will have to deal with dead bodies.

Whilst our budget of R4,464 billion is about 20% more than the 1997/1998 budget, in actual fact it is about 19,8% less than the projected actual expenditure in 1997/1998, and 28,8% less than the requested amount for the 1998/1999 financial year.

I would like to remind the hon member Mr Matthee, I see he is not present here this evening, and the members of the National Party, that they have a very short memory by saying that there is a crisis in health care in KwaZulu-Natal.  The National Party which ruled this country for 40 years was responsible for this mess in our country.

My real concern is our elderly mothers and fathers, the disabled and our children to whom in 1994 we pledged to give free and quality health care.  Chairperson, during the course of the year I visited Ngwelezana Hospital, Catharine Booth Hospital, Addington, Prince Mshiyeni, Newcastle, Dundee, Vryheid and Ladysmith Hospitals.  During the course of these visits, I have observed that our Health Department have committed themselves to delivering quality health services to all people.

However, there is a need for hard working individuals to develop an equal partnership with communities and to move away from a reactive approach.  Today, while millions continue to lie and die in the most inhuman conditions of ill-health, unemployment, economic exploitation and social inequality, there is an urgent need for the transformation of the society.  A family man was refused dialysis treatment for a kidney condition because he could not afford to pay, while a convicted prisoner was treated for a similar condition at a private hospital at the expense of the State.

Also during my visits to the hospitals, I observed that many well to do patients arrive at hospitals in the out-patients department in BMWs and Mercedes.  They pay only R9 and receive their out-patients card and sit in queues for treatment.  The real people, that is our elderly mothers and fathers, and disabled who, on many occasions, suffer from multiple illnesses, such as rheumatism, high blood pressure, heart and kidney diseases are restricted to only three types of medicines at the expense of the selfish well to do patients.

Another disturbing factor is that many patients from neighbouring provinces arrive at our hospitals at enormous costs for treatment and operations such as heart bypass surgery.  I strongly request the hon Minister to deal with this matter before our budget is eaten up.

Chairperson, we have a large rural population, many of them without clean water.  This really is a breeding ground for disease.  Our Province alone has the largest number of HIV cases, so we cannot sit back and think that somebody else is going to do the work.

We in KwaZulu-Natal are proud that since 1994 we have opened about 93 clinics.  I am proud to say that I have attended about 90 official openings of these clinics.  We need to educate the public that for simple ailments they must rather utilise the clinics than visiting the hospitals.

Although we achieved democracy in 1994, I am afraid that in most of the hospitals the status quo still exists.  The patients from both the Indian and African communities are still being shabbily treated.  One only has to visit some hospitals and one will discover that racism is still alive and kicking.  There are cases where the white doctors still have more sessions than their black counterparts.  In one hospital which I visited, I found that one doctor who was in full employ of the Department was allowed by the superintendent to spend eleven and a half hours of the 40 hours per week in his private surgery. 

When questioned, the superintendent's remarks were, "Change the Act".  Due to the financial constraints, the head office of the Health Department has allocated one sum to each hospital, to manage their own budget.  Chairperson, this has given some hospital administrators the zeal and keenness to save a bit of funds for their respective hospitals.  They often, without the knowledge of the regional directors and superintendents, give instructions to carry out certain so-called cost saving measures.  By this I mean that some hospitals are only serving two slices of brown bread and soup for supper.  Some are charging patients R86 per visit at night.  Included in this are old age pensioners and children.  This inconveniences these people.  This practice is completely unacceptable to us.  I would appreciate it if the hon Minister immediately took this matter up, as this is causing a lot of inconvenience to our elderly.

Whilst amalgamation and cost saving exercises must continue, I have one concern where some communities are affected and inconvenienced by this amalgamation process.  Here I would like to give this hon House an example.  Let us take Newcastle and Madadeni Hospitals, which are 25 kilometres apart.  One is in the urban area and the other is in the old township.  Most of the services, for example, the orthopaedic or major surgery have been moved to Madadeni Hospital.  There is a definite concern from the community of Newcastle that there was no adequate consultation with the community.  I am certain that the hon Minister, with the heads of departments will attend to this as soon as possible.

As for ambulance services.  Chairperson, it is the same case.  Ambulances have been moved from Madadeni Hospital to Newcastle.  In the case of an emergency, ambulances have to be despatched from Newcastle to Madadeni which takes at least another 45 minutes.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR M F REHMAN:  Chairperson, most hospitals that I have visited have outdated theatre instruments.  Once again, in this financial year no money will be spent on updating these instruments.  This is of grave concern to us.

I must place on record my sincere thanks and appreciation to the hon Minister of Health and his officials for their dedication and hard work.  In spite of many criticisms they have done the Cabinet of KwaZulu-Natal proud.  I therefore support your vote.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Rehman.  Finally, I have pleasure to call upon the hon Minister of Health, Dr Mkhize, to respond to the debate.  May I remind members of the House and the public that cell phones are strictly prohibited in this House.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, members of the House.  I wish to thank the hon members for the very positive debate and their contributions.  I want to say that the comments that you have made have been noted.  As you can see, we have got all the officials in the front here, as well as in the gallery.  Everybody is keenly noting what the members have said.  We will act on everything that has been raised.  I have just received an apology from hon member Mr Matthee for his absence.  He has got some business to attend to.  It is not really official but he has indicated that where issues relate to him he will follow the discussion later.  I want to indicate to the members that those  whose issues might not be touched upon, we will make time to discuss those issues even outside this chamber.

In responding to some of the matters, I think the points that have been raised are issues that we all probably agree upon.  The kinds of problems and shortfalls that you have pointed out are issues that we want to work on.

I want to thank Dr Mtalane, in particular, for the co-operation and assistance that she has given.  The discussions that have been reflected here today are no different from the kind of discussions that we normally engage ourselves in.  Through her own experience, when she comes across a problem, she is able to advise us based on the fact that she has worked in the same field.  As it has been indicated, most of the members here have got firsthand experience on health issues.  Therefore, the contributions that they have made have been remarkable and helpful.

I will touch briefly on the issue of counterpoising the issue of the termination of pregnancy and the kind of controls that we have proposed with regard to, for example, the weights of babies that we will ventilate, and the dialysis.

What this Act did is twofold.  One, it has made it more possible, particularly for the African women to have a safe abortion.  This has been going on, but with my limited experience, I have not been aware of patients, particularly from the white communities who have had serious problems with septic abortions arising from backstreet procedures.  That is the main thing that this Act has brought about.

Secondly, it is much cheaper to actually conduct a termination of pregnancy if you do it selectively, than if you are to deal with the complications of what happens if she has a backstreet abortion. That is the aspect which we are trying to deal with.  The people who decide to continue with an abortion, that it is their decision to do so.  Due to the fact that they have fallen pregnant, they should not have to die or suffer from severe complications as a result of that.  The reason for saying this is that sometimes the impression is created that we are mobilising people to go and actually have their pregnancies terminated.

In fact, what we are saying is that we are encouraging young women and young males not to get involved with unprotected sex which will result in unwanted pregnancies.  If you have to follow it according to biblical teachings or other religious approaches to encourage people not to fall pregnant, you are doing a lot more about it, because then what happens is you will not have somebody who has not been given a advice, either by the relatives, the preacher, or the priest, or the ~Inkosi~, or the family, or the [The head person or a girl of marriageable age in charge of other young girls], or whatever.  [LAUGHTER]  That at the end those people must have somewhere to fall back on.

This Act is waiting further down the line when everything else that we want to do would have been done.  In the clinics we will be promoting family planning, encouraging people to engage in safe sex and avoiding falling pregnant with the result of unwanted pregnancies.  But if all that fails, we are not the ones to judge the person.  They do not have to die because of the mistake they made.  This is what we have been trying to avoid.  We are saying that their mistakes must not cost them their lives.  This is what this Act is all about.  We are not encouraging everybody to go and terminate their pregnancies.

This is important because the health of a women does depend on whether she has got a say over the things that take place in her own life.  One of the problems of falling pregnant is the fact whether the boyfriend will acknowledge that this is his child, and therefore in that case it avoids somebody having that kind of tension, because they have got no one to support them.  If people are supported and most of the people who are counselled, in the hospitals they will be counselled and as a result will decide that they will not go ahead with the termination.

I always remember the story of when I was a doctor in Swaziland where I had a couple who had come from Uganda.  They were allowed to terminate their pregnancy.  They had seen the gynaecologist who had signed the necessary consent form.  All I was supposed to do was to do an ultrasound.  I sat down and I spoke to them.  I showed them the ultrasound pictures, whatever images they could see.  At the end of the day the man said, "Thank you very much, Doctor", and he tore up the forms and left.  They did not want to continue with this termination.

I know that many unwanted pregnancies and unplanned pregnancies raise a lot of tensions within the person.  What is important is whether the family and the close relatives are able to actually support this person and encourage them to continue with the pregnancy.  What happens if somebody has been raped?  What happens if somebody is very sick.  I have heard of situations where people have suffered from Grade 4 cardiac failure and when they have no chance of surviving the trauma of pregnancy.  Those are the situations which actually raise the question.  We have got cases of incest.  Child molestation is very high.  All those are some of the issues that come into the equation.

At the end of the day it will not be the members of this House, but the poor doctors sitting there with a teenage mother who is crying, "Do something".  That is the problem.  It is the doctors who then are charged for doing something illegal.  Yet we are actually trying to bury our heads in a situation that is a crisis in the community.

We are therefore saying, go ahead, advise all the young men and women and everyone that we do not want them to have unwanted pregnancies.  By doing that we will reduce the need for this Act to be utilised.  If no one comes to us for a termination of pregnancy, no one would be asked to do a termination of pregnancy.

We must know that we will have to work in the communities to stop people from needing termination of pregnancy.  If they need to, it is better that we allow them, rather than to continue with an unwanted pregnancy which will result in a septic abortion.  That is the point.

I come to the next question about the issue of dialysis and ventilating tiny babies.  Firstly, the question of ventilating those babies, is a matter of what your services can afford.  If you have got such services that you can actually afford to ventilate children lighter than one kilogram, what then happens is the survival rate of those babies is low.  You need very sophisticated and costly mechanisms to actually sustain those patients.  Therefore if we do not have money to sustain those, that is a problem.  I do not want to go into anything specific, but it can go up to R30 000 sometimes R40 000 just to take care of that baby.

It does not imply that we do not think that that baby must not survive.  We are saying that there are many who are dying and therefore the chances of survival are higher if you invest in those babies who have got a higher weight than if you invest in those with a lower weight.  If we had a choice we would actually ventilate any baby that we came across.  Therefore it would not be a big problem.

Dialysis is another question.  We have indicated that dialysis is available at the hospitals.  If we had sufficient money we would dialyse everybody who needed dialysis, even if there was no hope of getting a renal transplant.  We would dialyse everyone.  But in the particular case of the person we are talking about, we have protocol that is not only accepted in the hospital but is clinically drawn by our professors and experts.  Nationally as well as internationally, you follow a particular protocol.  One of the things you must check is the prognosis of that person.  If they are on a dialysis machine how do you get them out.  Can they actually receive a kidney transplant?  Will they survive the transplant?  Do they have any other conditions?  What is the point of actually dialysing a person who has a kidney problem when it is obvious that they might die of a heart attack.  The issue was straightforward.  You could see from the outset that there were other complications.

The issue is not just a financial one, it is a clinical decision.  You have to decide at what level do you dialyse and at what level do you not dialyse.  The number of patients you will be able to accommodate on your programme will depend on how much money you have.  In this Province we dialyse probably over a thousand patients of whom probably about 500 actually need a short term kind of dialysis.  After weeks they recover and can be discharged.  There are over 1 000 chronic patients.

We have got a problem.  We have got a long waiting list.  What happened in this particular publicised case, is that you have a queue of hundreds of people.  The people have to follow the queue.  This the case that was highlighted in the media, that person was No 100 or 300 and something in the queue.  And now you say what about this one.  You are not considering the fact that you are supposed to follow the queue.  This is really what happened here. 

We welcomed the decision of the Constitutional Court and the Supreme Court that said as much as the issue of death is an emergency, if the person has had a chronic disease which has been of a similar nature over a period.  You cannot then say that it is a crisis now because it is not the same as if somebody is involved in something, he was well all along, and suddenly they fall sick, and they considered that aspect.

Secondly, they said that the Government has an obligation to offer as much health assistance to individuals as it can afford.  You cannot therefore compare us to the US or Australia as to how much health care services or interventions we can afford.  I would like us to put this into perspective, and I hope I will be successful in doing that.  If we do not do that, the issue might be somewhat politicised.  That would be a pity, because it is one of the problems we are going to face in this Province.

The issue of the traditional healers.  I must say that we are working on that one in particular, and it is not only the African traditional herbal medication we are talking about.  There is what we call, and it has not been mentioned today because Mr Rajbansi is not here, that is the ayurvedic medicines.  We have a big problem with that which we are dealing with.  The issue is, people are allowed to go and find some herbal remedy which they find compatible with themselves, and therefore we only want to create a framework to actually guide the way in which those particular healing professions are carried out.  That is all we want to do.  We do not want to mix that up.  In some of the cases the people have said that they want the traditional healers to come in and use the hospitals, and that they must be able to issue sick leave, etcetera.  We have said no, hang on a little bit, but the matter is still being discussed.

Again, the issue of poverty relief.  I agree with the sentiments that have been expressed, and would like to say to hon member Mr Burrows, that the issue of the feeding scheme is a nightmare.  Some members have asked why is it with Health and not with Education.  This was decided at national.  To be honest, I can tell you, they asked the National Minister of Education.  He said, "No, it has got nothing to do with the books and blackboards, we will not help".  Well, maybe those were not his words, but the point is they were not happy to handle it from that Department.  It should not appear that we went out of our way to go and look for a project.  This project of nutrition is the problem that we would least like to have something to do with.  It had its problems before we even started and every year the problems have compounded.  It is even worse when you have to come and answer to Parliament here, because there is no way you can get rid of those problems.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Yes.  So the problem we understand and we will do our best to try and deal with the situation.  I can assure the members here that where we can find the responsible person who misused those funds we will not smile at them, we will send them to goal.  We will make sure that the funds are recovered.  The problem really, which we are now finding, is not so much the question of people having misused the money, the problem we are finding is with the accounting process.  The ordinary members of the community do not know that if you want to buy beans you must actually get a receipt.  The children ate the beans and they were very happy.  There is nothing to show that they bought the beans and then we get into trouble.  Those are the type of problems we are experiencing.

The question was raised about the consent form.  What we are saying about the consent form.  Sorry, about the agreement that was supposed to be signed.  One of the problems that we are experiencing is that the people change.  You find today Mkhize signed, and then he says:  "Well, I am now going to work in Jo'burg and Ndonsi is going to replace me".  Ndonsi comes and decides to sign the cheque and the bank says:  "No, we do not know this signature".  Those kinds of small problems.

If there is anyone who has misused funds, you cannot claim them in any specific manner other than going to them personally, but if you have the co-operation of the school governing bodies, you have a body which has some legal status.  This is why we have to deal with it.  We had to actually ask the school governing bodies to take over these projects.

In addition, the point was raised why did we not just go to the bank and say to the bank give us an account for Siyahlomula  School and Mbaliyesizwe School.  They would not allow us to do that.  They say:  "Well, the Department of Health has got nothing to do with Mbaliyezwe School", because there is no agreement.  We had to change our agreement to say that if the school has got an account, the Department must have access to the account so that we can go and fetch a statement and find out who is signing what cheques.  That is what we are now going to be doing.  But I can tell you, if we are to continue with these projects for the next 20 years, people who will then be debating the matter in this House, will look back at what the hon member Burrows and the other members said.  They will wonder why these things are still similar after 20 years.  That is how complex it is.

MR R M BURROWS:  I hope not.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  I nevertheless feel very confident that we will be able to deal with that issue.  There are certain problems, I will not necessarily deal with all, but I will touch on the issue of the support for the District Health System and the transformation process.  I am really very grateful for the support, because while we are going through that process, we will require a lot of participation from the communities.  Therefore we would really want the members to be aware of that process and assist us as far possible.  That understanding helps quite a lot.

I will not go into the question Mr Matthee asked about what we are doing about TB.  That is a long story.  If we want to discuss that, I think we need to sit down.  I am not going to deal with that.  The question about the agreements with foreign doctors and foreign training and so on, we are reviewing everything.  What we had and what we did not have.  We are reviewing all that and we will have to deal with it.

Mrs Mohlaka raised the question about what is happening north of Tugela.  July 1998 they will have their intake.  It has nothing to do with discrimination.  It had something to do with the manner in which they conducted their interviews.  I will leave the issue at that.

The 10 students sent to Cuba.  Generally the cost of training for those students in Cuba, and what is happening here is not very different.  It is almost the same.  That was one of the options we had.  But in addition, there is a big challenge about how you are going to move a population which consists of 76% African and yet only has about 10% of its doctors.  How do you increase those numbers?  Fortunately those students that were sent were not chosen according to their political party, they were not chosen according to anything.  They were chosen by the regional directors.  The students had to have come from underprivileged areas, the rural areas like Pongola and Greytown and all the other areas or townships.  Those students were screened.  They had to have the potential.  Some of them might have had a problem being accepted by a medical school, not necessarily because their grades were low, but because of the numbers.  Some of the questions that were raised on the policy of how we admit students there, have been problematic but we are discussing those issues.

But I am very proud of that group that has gone out, and those are the kind of people we need to concentrate on.  We know that somebody from the rural area may not return there afterwards, either because they got married or were attracted to the brighter lights and so on, it is actually much better to be able to get a representation of the students you train, not only in terms of the population distribution, but in terms of the demography of your geographic distribution urban, rural and all that.  I believe that it is one of the things that we needed to do.  We are hoping and we are still working with the University of Natal to try and increase those numbers.  Of course, you do not have to be in the cities and in the limelight to actually do good work and produce good results.  

I want to point out the achievement as was mentioned by hon member Mohlaka about Nkonjeni Hospital.  We are very proud of them.  For two successive years they have produced the best midwifery students.  I said during my speech that there are so many achievements you cannot mention them all.  I went into their hall in the nursing college side and they showed me the ceiling.  They said please look at the ceiling, and there was no ceiling.  That is just showing the kind of degradation there is.  The place needs to be rebuilt.  There are many problems, but the students were determined to achieve and they went ahead and did just that.

I am not therefore ignoring the reality when I say we have got to be positive about this, because if we were to look back and say in terms of the Rands and cents each year we will have a higher allocation than the previous one.  You must say to people that out of this, this is at least what we will try and do for you, and this is what we are going to do. 

This brings me to the issue of community health workers.  There were specific problems about how they were allocated and how they were chosen.  This issue will be looked into, but there were areas where there was an oversupply.  We will take into account all the points that were raised when we follow this matter up.

The issue about Mariannhill.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  The issue about Mariannhill.  I did mention that we are aware of the problems there.  I do not want to debate the matter, because all the points have been raised here, and during discussions.  I said that we will have to consider everyone, and we do not believe that that hospital needs to be closed.  How we are going to get around the problem is another issue.  We are going to have to deal with that.  It is not the only hospital that has a problem.  If you read the headlines about King Edward, you would know what we are talking about.  It just so happened, and somebody quoted Dr Ross; if we allowed all the superintendents to speak to the papers in this Province, people are going to ask us:  "What exactly are you doing in this Department", because our staff, our doctors and our nurses are working under very difficult conditions.  One doctor who took me out on a tour one day said:  "I want just one thing from you.  Just come and I want to show you all the toilets in this hospital".  I went from one toilet to the other and to the kitchen.  I can tell you, if I were to take any of you into those areas, you will not want to visit a hospital after that.

That is just to point out to you that when there is a cut in the maintenance budget it spells disaster.  We know what that means.  Despite that, the people are determined to do some work.  We know that there are problems.  We are not saying that there are no problems.  We will actually consider all the things that you have mentioned.

If we talk about tea that had to be given to staff.  Some of the issues we were confronted with by the Department of Finance who said, and you must have read it in the papers, that some of the departments were irresponsible.  I said earlier that whatever you do you are wrong somewhere.  If you follow the need on the ground, and you spend according to that, you end up with an over-expenditure of R850 million like we had last year.  Then everybody wants to know what is wrong for allowing such an over-expenditure.  If you want to cut that you then get the complaints about what about the tea?  What about the overtime and so on?  How do you balance such a big issue?

We are getting the institutions to run their own budgets.  If they think they can save on some medicine and buy tea, that is fine, if they think that is going to effectively deal with the issue.  It is a matter of choices, not just choices, hard choices.  I do not know if it is a crisis if somebody is not going to have tea.  It is bad I think not to have tea, but if there is a crisis, we want the institutions to look at how they can deal with those issues.  Some of the things are quite significant.  A simple thing like having a TV for your staff when they are relaxing can do a lot to change the mood and morale.  If they can do some saving, that is fine.  But the point is, at the end of the day we will be monitoring every week and every month if they are actually exceeding their cash flows.  If they are, the amount by which they would have exceeded will be cut from the following month, and therefore they will have a lower cash flow.

I want to promise you, we will share that with you because we do not have a choice.  We will not only share it with you, because it also goes to Cabinet.  Every week Cabinet sits down to decide which are the delinquent departments.  We would not like to be looked at in that manner.  But we are saying that we are concerned about it.  The institutions can decide how they want to deal with it, and if they can convince us that there is a way around it then fine.  I am quite certain that when the departments are in charge their budgets they will do a lot of saving, by cutting down on duplications.  They will be able to make some adjustments that would possibly be compatible to them.

Lastly, I want to just touch on the subject of HIV.  I want to thank the members of this House.  I am not sure if in any of the other provinces this issue has been debated in the manner in which it has been debated in this House.  Starting from the first motion that was raised.  Sometimes it sounds very jocular, but as a matter of fact, those cards are not just cards, they have messages that are mainly targeting the youth.  So when they want to play cards they will look through the cards and they will read some of these messages.

It is not only that.  I have seen lots of things that can be useful to the youth.  We are trying all these methods.  The amount of debate that has taken place in this House, I do not believe has happened in any of the other Legislatures.  I want to congratulate the members of this House, because it is important for the community to hear these being discussed in this House.  Then you do not have anything hidden under the carpet.  If you want to change attitudes the most important issue is what the leaders of the Province are talking about, what they are doing is important.  When the people hear that you are discussing the issue of HIV and receive all the necessary information, then they are going to listen.  When we have completed our business in the House the campaign will continue.  It does not stop here.

I understand the expression of Mrs Downs, and some of the other members.  How touching some of the stories have been.  I do not want to give you any personal stories, but one thing which I just want to mention and some of you were present during the Easter rally.  Two things that were touching.

The first one, was the lady who was being interviewed and she said that she was rejected by the members of the church.  She explained how people suddenly did not see her as being a worthy human being and no longer a fellow Christian.  That was quite important.  Dr Dandala went on to say that on behalf of the Christians:  "We want to apologise".  That was another statement.  It was saying to the people that you cannot continue to isolate people who are HIV positive.  They must find acceptance and comfort when they come to church.  That message you are actually all taking through.

The second issue which was actually very touching, for me personally, was when we sat in front of the City Hall and then put up a cross with a ribbon draped over it.  The children were sent to lay flowers.  The children then started singing, and there was one small boy of about five years.  The boy is HIV positive and had just come out of hospital.  It is only a matter of time before he dies, and he stood there and he was signing Nkosi Sikelela iAfrika.  The message that we are giving to the people of this Province is that AIDS is serious.

With those words, Mr Chairman, I want to thank all the members for their contributions, and I want to thank you very sincerely for the positive support and praise I have received from you.  I want to thank the members of the Department present here and those who are not present.  It is very difficult for us to understand how difficult it is to work under circumstances when somebody comes to you and there is a shortage of medicine.  When somebody comes to you and you cannot admit them to hospital because there is no money to cater for those needs.  As long as when we go around with our politics and electioneering we are able to make sure that people, despite the fact they are making some of the problems that some of them ultimately get thrown to, where somebody will say:  "Hey listen, do not talk to me, I am tired", those types of things, I think we must understand that there is a lot of pressure under which the people are working.

If we are saying that we have a staff establishment of 59 000 and we are 8 000 short, that means literally a number of hospitals will be functioning without any staff.  That is literally what it is going to mean.  So your support on those issues is going to be important.

Lastly, Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, and members of the press and gallery, we would like to invite you to a cocktail party which will be served hereafter, and thank you very much for your support.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Minister.  That concludes the debate on vote 7 of the Department of Health.  At this point in time I would wish to hand over to the Speaker of this House.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED AT 18:46
	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED AT 18:47

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I request the Deputy Chair of Committees to make a report.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Hon Speaker, the Committee of Supply has met, but we have not concluded our business and we wish, with your permission, to sit again on the next sitting day of this House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Deputy Chair of Committees.  That concludes the business of today.  Before we continue, I just want to make one announcement.

Recently departments have taken to distributing material themselves in the House without the permission of the parliamentary staff.  That has resulted in some members not receiving such material.  In order to avoid such situations occurring again, departments are requested to distribute all their material through either Mrs E N Mathaba at Office No 2, Greene Chambers in the parliamentary administration, or alternatively, through the table assistants that are usually present in the House.  I do not have to tell you what problems we encounter if members do not get adequate material.  Also for the processes to be orderly, it is always better that we follow certain procedures.  It will assist all of us and not only the presiding officers or those affected.  I am going to request the party Whips to kindly convey this to the Ministers who are not present here today, whose votes are still to be debated in this House.

Having said that, I wish to request the MECs present to indicate if there are any announcements by the Premier.  Mr Minister?

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works):  No announcement, Mr Speaker, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  Minster Ndebele.

MR J S NDEBELE: (Minister of Transport):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  At lunch today we had a meeting with the Department of Transport, the Minister of Safety and Security and the police management about the taxi violence that is ravaging the Province, particularly as it is now affecting passengers.  As we were completing the meeting at Natalia, the Commissioner came in to report that there had been a serious shootout at the High Court in Durban, where a hearing of one faction was taking place and the other faction came in with AKs and there was an exchange of fire.  Two people died and some court orderlies were injured, as well as some police.  The matter is actually getting out of hand.  Three people have died.  The matter is actually getting out of hand.  ~Inkosi~ Ngubane is attending to that now.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister, for informing the hon members on this state of affairs.  I hope that either the Premier or the Minister for Safety and Security in the Province will be able to bring light on what subsequently transpired, tomorrow when the House resumes.  In the meantime the business of the day has been concluded.  I therefore adjourn this sitting until tomorrow at 9 o'clock in the morning.  Thank you.  House adjourns.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 18:51 UNTIL
	9:00 ON FRIDAY, 22 MAY 1998



