&#9;1&#9;B T MOGAPI 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;11.11.1996&#9;NAME:&#9;B T MOGAPI

CASE: - &#9;&#9;KRUGERSDORP

DAY 1

_________________________________________________________

CHAIRPERSON: Whilst we are waiting for Mr Mogapi to come to the table, can I just welcome some of our guests here today. Mayor Isaac Mogasi from the, has he gone already. My apologies. We have Mayor Stephen Ntingwa. If you can please stand Sir. Welcome. We also have Maureen Gatswayo who is from the ANC Womens League. Welcome. Mrs Nomboola Mokonyane who is the MEC for Agriculture and Environment and Conservation in the Gauteng Province. Welcome. We have some visitors from the, some of them, two from the United States of America and one from Britain. All from an organisation called The National Conference of Black Lawyers. Ms Chrystal Gaines, Ms Yvonne Floyd-Mayors and Ms Isiyoma Amabala. Welcome. 

&#9;Mr Mogapi, can you hear me? Welcome. Mr Mogapi, you have also come from Khutsong near Carletonville.

MR MOGAPI: Yes, it is so. I am from Carletonville.

CHAIRPERSON: And you have come to talk about yourself today?

MR MOGAPI: Yes, I have come to tell you about my own story.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Joyce Seroke is going to help you in telling your story, but before I hand over, will you please stand to take the oath.

BEN TIGORAMBO MOGAPI: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mogapi. Ms Seroke.

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MS SEROKE: Ben Tigorambo Mogapi, you are here to tell us about events that happened on the fifth on July 1986 when you were arrested and there you stayed for almost a year. We will kindly request you to tell us as to what happened at that time relating to your statement.

MR MOGAPI: Can you please repeat your question?

MS SEROKE: I was requesting that you must still tell us, according to your statement, that you were arrested on the 

fifth of July 1986. Just explain to us briefly what happened.

MR MOGAPI: I was a member of KHUSCOU, Khutsong Student Congress. On the fifth of July 1986 we were supposed to bury our fallen Comrade by the name of Comrade Kleinboy Oupa Swewo. We were preparing for the funeral. On that very same evening of the fifth of July we were attending the night vigil. I was the MC at that particular night vigil. Everything went well until quarter to three. In the early morning of Saturday the police arrived and they surrounded the yard and they assaulted us, they beat us. We were taken away to Welverdien Police Station. On arrival at that police station ...

MS SEROKE: Rambo, please have some water and take your time. We know that your story is hurting, but please try and tell us. 

MR MOGAPI: I undressed. It was Skeepers, Strydom and Nkosi who were there. They said I must undress. They tortured me for some time, for something like two hours. From there I was very dizzy due to this. When I gained consciousness I was in Carletonville Police Station. The following day we were taken to Potchefstroom and there we stayed for a week in Potchefstroom. Whilst we were there, the policemen

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arrived again and they took us to Rustenberg. When we got to Rustenberg, we stayed for a few days there. Some of us were being interrogated here in Johannesburg. After a few days I was also called. When I got that interrogation session, Nkosi was there to fetch me. He was a Sergeant and he was accompanied by Sergeant Daewoo. When I arrived there they took my identification details. Strydom also arrived and he wanted to know what is this thing, who is he. Nkosi said he is Rambo Boeta. Strydom went into his car and he cam back carrying a bag and when he came back he said I must undress and they started again. 

MS SEROKE: Please take your time Rambo, take your time.

MR MOGAPI: They put their wires again here on my hands, even on the ears and here by the waist and again here more in the waist area and in my private parts as well and more on my toes. Then they started torturing me. They tortured me for almost three hours there. They sent a message to my home that I was dead. I stayed for three weeks there in Rustenberg in Ramochana Prison.

&#9;On our way back they transferred us to Potchefstroom. Whilst I was there my parents came to visit me. When they got there I was surprised as to why they were crying and I started crying as well. I wanted to know what is happening. My mother just told me that we had just come to collect your corpse because we have heard that you passed away. I just told my mother that it is all thanks to God that I am still alive. 

&#9;On the 11th of June 1987 we were released from prison, but we were given certain conditions. Then we came here in Johannesburg (inaudible). DPS helped us, the DPS organisation helped us. They helped us to get some medical 

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treatment. As they were checking the results of our torture Doctor Richardson told me that I will never be able to bear children again in my life due to this torturing by the policemen. 

&#9;I washed my ears because they were constantly bleeding and during this cleansing process a cigarette stump was taken out. I do not know as to how did it, who put it there and how. Even till today I am not working and there is no funds to get medical treatment so that ones life can be normal again. I thank you.

MS SEROKE: Rambo, you say you were at a night vigil of Kleinboy and you were the MC when they arrived on that morning. When they arrived were you singing? What were you doing? What was the reason as to why did they surround and arrest you?

MR MOGAPI: We were singing freedom songs.

MS SEROKE: Is that all?

MR MOGAPI: Yes, we were sympathising and paying respects to our Comrade.

MS SEROKE: You say they took the whole 700.

MR MOGAPI: Yes, they arrested 700 of us. 

MS SEROKE: Were you all tortured or did they choose a few people from the 700?

MR MOGAPI: They picked a few from the group. 

MS SEROKE: All in all those who were tortured, how many were they?

MR MOGAPI: If I can remember clearly only 11 were tortured.

MS SEROKE: When you think why did they choose this 11, why only this 11 of all this crowd?

MR MOGAPI: From my point of view I was a member of KHUSCOU and the policemen knew me well.

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MS SEROKE: And they even knew that you are a leader and you are not an ordinary member?

MR MOGAPI: Yes, I was an organiser and a secretary.

MS SEROKE: You say they took you to Welverdien. You told us they tortured you there. Can you tell us what kind of torture there was in Welverdien?

MR MOGAPI: At Welverdien they used the very same wires and they also covered my head with a balaclava and they had these wires already in my body, all over. They told me that I must tell the truth. I wanted to know what is this truth that they want to know because we were just at the funeral. That is when they started shocking me with this electric wires. They started kicking me and assaulting me. It was very painful. 

MS SEROKE: In other words they repeated the same torture in Potchefstroom, the very same torture that they did in Welverdien?

MR MOGAPI: Yes, it was the same torture.

MS SEROKE: You have just said that the truth they wanted to know you, you mentioned Ronnie, Strydom, Skeepers, Tawu, van Graan and van Rooyen. All these people were they there when they tortured you? Did all of them torture you or was it only just one particular person torturing you?

MR MOGAPI: They were all torturing me.

MS SEROKE: After torturing you there in Welverdien did they take you to a doctor? 

MR MOGAPI: No, we were not seeing any doctors because whilst you are in prison you are only given pills and some injections. There was no point in going to the doctor.

MS SEROKE: On your release on the 12th of July did you try to institute a case against the police?

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MR MOGAPI: My lawyer Priscilla Jana has got the statement.

MS SEROKE: Was your lawyer Priscilla Jana here and how far did the matter go?

MR MOGAPI: It just did not go very far.

MS SEROKE: Do you still know these policemen? Are they still around?

MR MOGAPI: They are still around, but they have been posted to different places. 

MS SEROKE: They are not in Carletonville anymore?

MR MOGAPI: No, they are not in Carletonville anymore.

MS SEROKE: But you know that they are still elsewhere

MR MOGAPI: Yes, I know because Skeepers was still in Parys.

MS SEROKE: You said you still have not recovered fully and you cannot even get medical treatment. This ear, is it still proper, can you still hear properly?

MR MOGAPI: I try, but my health depends on the weather. 

MS SEROKE: Do you want to see doctors?

MR MOGAPI: Yes, I still want to see doctors.

MS SEROKE: But you cannot afford. Would you like the Truth Commission to try and help you by referring you to a doctor?

MR MOGAPI: Yes mam.

MS SEROKE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Seroke. Dr Ally.

DR ALLY: Rambo, was this the first time that you were detained by the police?

MR MOGAPI: No.

DR ALLY: Could you tell us about your previous encounters with the police just briefly?

MR MOGAPI: I was arrested for public violence in 1985.

DR ALLY: Could you just tell us a little bit more about that, just to elaborate a bit. Public violence, what

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actually happened? What was the exact charge?

MR MOGAPI: On the 19th of February 1985 we decided as students and we protested. We told our teachers about our demands and the punishment at school. Whilst we were in the meeting with the principal on the 19th of February, we were still trying to solve the problem that was at school at that time. We were surprised to see policemen just arriving. They were beating up the students on the premises. At that time the policemen and students were rivals. There was no peace and that is when we started loitering and looting in the township because of the deeds of the policemen on the school premises. I was arrested in March 1985 and I was granted a R100.00 bail. On the 20th of November 1985 I managed to succeed and I managed to further on with my life till today. 

DR ALLY: Sir, I did not exactly understand that point. On the 20th of November 1985. Are you saying that you were acquitted, that you were found not guilty in the public violence case? Is that what you meant?

MR MOGAPI: Yes, that is what I mean Sir.

DR ALLY: Then in 1996 you were arrested. You were detained at that night vigil. This organisation, The Khutsong Student Congress, was it an affiliate of COSAS or any other national body? The student body that you were involved in, the Khutsong Student Congress. Was it an affiliate of COSAS or any other national body?

MR MOGAPI: Yes, it was affiliated with COSAS at that time. DR ALLY: You speak about this night vigil for this Comrade Oupa Sweso. Could you tell us about him, how he was killed because you do not have it in your statement? 

MR MOGAPI: Comrade Kleinboy Sweso, he died because of 

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illness, due to illness. 

DR ALLY: Earlier on, you may have heard the testimony 

of the brother, of Shadrick who was killed earlier in the same year that you are speaking about, beginning of 1986. The name Skeepers also came up. Is this the same, firstly, did you know Shadrick by any chance, Shadrick Goliath?

MR MOGAPI: Yes, I knew Shadrick. We were at the same school. He was a member of the committee until his death.

DR ALLY: Khutsong Youth Congress or are you speaking about a committee at school?

MR MOGAPI: KHUSCOU.

DR ALLY: Did you know Gerry who was mentioned as well, who was a friend.

MR MOGAPI: Yes, I know Gerry.

DR ALLY: Surname, sorry.

MR MOGAPI: I do not know his surname, but he was very young at that time. 

DR ALLY: Do you know anybody who knows Gerry who would be able to help us to try and get a statement from Gerry's family.

MR MOGAPI: I asked his parents to come and give in a statement, but they have not arrived yet. I will make a follow-up on that.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much that. You say, the second part of that question that I asked you, the name Skeepers. Is this the same Skeepers who was mentioned in the statement with regard to Shadrick?

MR MOGAPI: Yes, it is the same Skeepers.

DR ALLY: Do you know his full name?

MR MOGAPI: It is John Skeepers.

DR ALLY: So there was, the police clearly knew you then if 

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you said you were detained in 1985, you were a public violence charge, 1985. You were acquitted. You were then 

detained in 1996. You were released in 1987. Did anything happen after 1987 with you and the police or was that the last of your encounters with the police?

MR MOGAPI: That was the last encounter with them.

DR ALLY: Just one last question. Doctor Richardson, who you said, did Doctor Richardson actually examine you?

MR MOGAPI: Yes, he did examine me.

DR ALLY: Did he do quite extensive tests on you because you say that Doctor Richardson said that you will not be able to have children. Were there a number of tests done on you by Doctor Richardson? 

MR MOGAPI: Yes.

DR ALLY: And those medical records, did you give them, you may have given them in. I do not see them in the file, but you have the medical records, I am sure. Where are these medical records.

MR MOGAPI: They are there at Namta, at Doctor Richardson's rooms in Cavendish Chambers.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much Rambo.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mogapi, I just want to ask you one or two questions please. What are you doing now, what is your work.

MR MOGAPI: I am a statement taker for the Truth Commission.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we just go back to 1986. What was actually happening in the township at the time?

MR MOGAPI: There was war in the township. It was during the bus boycott. We did not allow the buses to come into the township so that the black people should be able to work for themselves. The buses were not allowed in the township 

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and due to that we fought with the police because they were rude.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Seroke asked you about the 700 people who were arrested. You said there were 11 other people who were tortured. Can you give us the names of some of those people?

MR MOGAPI: Douglas van Rooyen is the one I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Not the people who tortured you, but some of your Comrades who were also tortured with you.

MR MOGAPI: Yes, I remember them. The first one is Douglas van Rooyen, Douglas van Rooyen.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Douglas van Rooyen, is he the policeman who tortured you. Is that right?

MR MOGAPI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: No he was not.

MR MOGAPI: He is one of our Comrades.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, sorry, because you have also mentioned some van Rooyen who tortured you. Anybody else that you can remember? Any other people that you can remember?

MR MOGAPI: The other one is Nicholas Mashlapo, but he is deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you tell us about Nicholas Mashlapo?

MR MOGAPI: If I can remember clearly, he died somewhere there between 1992 and 1993, but he was killed by Shenga's group in the township. 

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to come back to your arrest. You were in prison for 11 months. Were you charged at the time?

MR MOGAPI: No, I was not charged.

CHAIRPERSON: When you were released, what was said to you?

MR MOGAPI: The just pointed fingers at me, the very same policemen. We were to report at six o' clock in the morning KRUGERSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

 

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and six o' clock in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: My last question is just related to when you were taken, you said I was transferred to Rustenberg Prison and then you were taken to some frontal shooting club in Rustenberg and it seems like the same people who tortured you in Wetevreden Prison were the same people who then tortured you in Rustenberg as well.

MR MOGAPI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So they came all the way from Carletonville to Rustenberg.

MR MOGAPI: Yes, Sir. They took us there in Potchefstroom and sent us there in Rustenberg.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, no more questions. Sorry, Joyce.

MS SEROKE: In your statement you say there is a policeman who stabbed you on your face. In your statement you say there is a policeman who stabbed you on your face. Nkosi, just to remind you. You say Nkosi arrived and stabbed you on your face. 

MR MOGAPI: No, he did not stab me, he kicked me.

MS SEROKE: Okay, I just wanted to clear that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mogapi, thank you very much for coming. Your story has been told so many times, but it does not make it less important by the youth of our country, because wherever we have been throughout our travels in the last six or seven months, many young people have come forward and said similar stories to yours. The pain, undoubtedly, is still there with you. We have heard what you have said about the policemen who were involved and that they are still present in some of our police stations. 

&#9;As we have done in previous hearings, we appeal to those policemen to come forward to come and tell their 

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stories or apply for amnesty and we hope we will be able to 

give some of the answers to the questions that you are raising. Ms Seroke has also asked the question about medical care for yourself and we will see what we can do about that. Thank you for coming. Do you want to say anything else?

MR MOGAPI: What I would like the Truth Commission to help me with is, I do not want these people to come and ask for apology. They must come to me and they must go to the court so that they should realise what damage they have done to me. At the moment I am like a dead person. 

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mogapi. I think this would be an appropriate time for us to stop for a tea break. Before I do that can I just welcome a few other individuals who have arrived since my last welcome. We have got Mr Ignatius Jacobs our MEC for Welfare. Welcome. Councillor Strike Ralogoma who is an Exco Chairperson of Western MSS. Where is he? Has he gone already? Somewhere around. Okay, sorry and Rose Waldron who is also from the Western MSS. Welcome. Thank you. Can we just stand while the witnesses go out and then we can have a 15 minute tea break. We will be back at ten past. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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