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DATE:&#9;7TH SEPTEMBER 1999
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 DATE:&#9;7TH SEPTEMBER 1999

NAME:&#9;NICHOLAS ZWILE CHAMANE&#9;

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM0188/96

DAY :&#9;2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Yesterday we concluded with the evidence, having led the evidence of Mr Zimu. We'll now proceed with the next application. Has it been decided who it will be Mr Padi?

MR PADI: Thank you, Mr Chair. The position of Mr Mlaba is that he's still in a very sickly condition, so he indicated to me that he's still prepared to proceed with the application, so I just confirmed with Ms van der Westhuizen that she will proceed with Mr Chamane first, then we're going to Mr Mlaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, there's no particular reason for the applicants to give their evidence in any particular order, so that will be in order. Ms van der Westhuizen.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Maybe we should just arrange for Mr Chamane to sit somewhere. It seems like there's no place for him to sit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he'll obviously have to have a place to sit. Yes, I think Mr Zimu's finished. Mr Chamane's application is in volume 1 page 95 et seq.

NICHOLAS ZWILE CHAMANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms van der Westhuizen.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chamane, do you confirm that you are applying for amnesty today, specifically for the people who were killed and injured at the so-called Ngema Tavern shootings?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chamane, I'd like you to start off by giving the Honourable Committee your personal background, where you're from, where you were born and why you came to Johannesburg.

MR CHAMANE: I'm originally from Greytown in Natal. I came to Johannesburg looking for a job.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Yes and were you working here, were you employed?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I was employed.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where did you reside?

MR CHAMANE: At Khalanyoni Hostel, in Thokoza.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Roughly which year was it when you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just repeat the name of that hostel please?

MR CHAMANE: Khalanyoni Hostel at Thokoza.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can you give us an indication which year it was when you arrived here in Gauteng?

MR CHAMANE: I came here in 1989.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: At that ...Yes?

MR CHAMANE: I came to Johannesburg in 1989 and I started working. Working at Angus Alec Security.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now during all this time were you residing in the hostel?

MR CHAMANE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just to get it into perspective, I see from your application form that you were born in 1967, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: I was born in 1969, in October. Then it was an error that they wrote 1967.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were 20 years of age when you came to Johannesburg, approximately?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now whilst you resided here in Gauteng, were you all the time staying in the hostel, or did you live somewhere else?

MR CHAMANE: Before my employers sent me to some place called Phuthatswana in ...(indistinct) and I came back in 1990, in June, so that I went back to the hostel between May and June, that is the hostel where I had initially stayed.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I want you to briefly tell the Committee your experience of the violence. When did it erupt and how did you perceive this violence?

CHAIRPERSON: We're talking about it as it applied in this area, not in Greytown area.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Indeed, I'm indebted to you, Chairperson.

MR CHAMANE: As far as I'm concerned, this violence in Thokoza erupted in 1990. I was here already. One day I was coming from work and there were people gathering next to a hostel in a shack. These people were wearing blankets. They had converged at the grounds for a meeting and when I got there I was told that these people were moving around saying that they were looking for Inkatha from Nkandla and it got me surprised because there was Inkatha from Nkandla and later on these people were going around killing people.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Chamane. Where is Nkandla?

MR CHAMANE: It is in Natal.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now after that initial attack, were you aware of other attacks on the people in the hostel?

MR CHAMANE: That was the first incident that happened in my presence.

CHAIRPERSON: You spoke about these people wearing blankets and saying that they're looking for IFP from Nkandla. Did that reduce to violence or were they just making inquiries?

MR CHAMANE: These people walked from house to house saying they were looking for Inkatha people, they did not say that they want Inkatha Freedom Party members, instead they wanted Inkatha people from Nkandla and they continued attacking people at Khalanyoni. Khalanyoni was attacked and it was under constant attack, after which many people fled the hostel, so that I fled to Mshayazafe Hostel. 

&#9;Once at the hostel around those days, I met with people on my way to Everest where I wanted to visit a friend to discuss the possibilities of resigning where I was working. I had started experiencing problems because most of the people with whom I was working are the ones who were attacking us at the hostel and I came across people who were distributing pamphlets at Everest. These pamphlets were saying people should not get confused as to what was happening, the fighting is actually between the ANC, is actually between amaZulu and the amaXhosa so that it is not between the ANC and the IFP. The pamphlets were actually bearing Cosatu logos, Communist Party logos, etc. and they were calling upon comrades to unite. That is when I started realising that this was actually between the IFP and the ANC as they had stated in the pamphlets.

&#9;After that, the hostel Mshayazafe was attacked continuously by the very same people, but this time it was no longer people from Polla Park. Some people from the township also came and joined in to attack Mshayazafe hostel. They were attacking Mshayazafe Hostel but then this time they were no longer targeting Mshayazafe Hostel, they were also attacking individual Inkatha members who were residing in the township, burning their houses as well. 

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You yourself, what weapons did you use to defend yourself, can you explain?

MR CHAMANE: From the time when I was staying at Khalanyoni Hostel, I bought a 9mm firearm, but later on I ended up in possession of an AK47 that I was using.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: How did you get that AK47? Who gave it to you?

MR CHAMANE: I think it was in 1991, one of the indunas with whom we had fled Khalanyoni met with me and others and we discussed the dying of many Inkatha members as well as the burning of their houses in the township and we discussed this so that this induna whose name was Mkhondo advised that we should ensure the safety and protection of our members. That is when I got this firearm from the same Induna.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Is he also the one who showed you how to operate this AK47?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: When and how did this happen?

MR CHAMANE: If, even though I cannot be certain, he showed me how to use this with others. This happened in 1991.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Was that at the hostel?

MR CHAMANE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now tell us about your involvement, your personal involvement with the IFP and IFP structures at that point in time.

MR CHAMANE: As members of the IFP, we believed that people should be free to do whatever they wanted and live under safety conditions with no attacks and no intimidation and we believed that people had a choice to join whatever party or organisation they saw fit and the people should not be attacked and their houses should not be burned as a result of joining wrong organisations but then there came a time when we took a decision that we as Inkatha members had to protect ourselves because our people were under constant attack.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Ms van der Westhuizen wanted to, was asking you was were you a member of the IFP? Did you become a member, a card-carrying member, or were you a supporter without becoming formally a member and if you did become a member when and where did you join?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I was a fully fledged IFP member having joined the IFP at Thokoza and I started becoming a card-carrying member of the IFP in 1991.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Under which structure did you fall?

MR CHAMANE: I was under the IFP Youth League.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who was the leader of the Youth League of the IFP in Thokoza at that stage?

MR CHAMANE: It was Themba Msomi.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And in the hostel where you resided, who did you regard as your leader, whether it's traditional or IFP. Who did you see as a person who could give you orders?

MR CHAMANE: Are you referring to an IFP leader at the hostel or just any leader at the hostel?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Any leader that you regarded as a person who could give you orders in the hostel itself.

MR CHAMANE: It was Mkhondo.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, I want to take you to the day on which the Ngema Tavern shootings took place, the 22nd of January. On that day you were coming from your workplace, approximately what time did you leave your work?

MR CHAMANE: I used to knock off at 5 o'clock. I left my workplace at 5 o'clock and headed for Thokoza as usual. Upon arrival I met with a certain induna along the way who said I should hurry, go down to Khumalo's place before I go to the hostel. I did so and on arrival, some men were gathering there and some of these people were residents of the hostel, people such as Mondli and a few others and there was another induna called Mkhondo there and he informed me that I should not go anywhere that day because Mrs Khumalo was to be buried the following day and these people are likely to attack us on route to the funeral.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Just before we continue as to what happened on that day, how did you know Mr Khumalo? What did you hear about Mr Khumalo?

MR CHAMANE: I used to hear, they used to say there was a Bishop Khumalo who was an IFP member who used to attack in the townships.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Had you heard of any attack on the Khumalos? 

MR CHAMANE: Yes.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now Bishop Khumalo, did you regard him as an IFP member or official?

MR CHAMANE: I used to regard him as an IFP member, just an IFP ordinary member.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Is it correct that you were a member of the SPU, Self Protection Unit, that was formed in the hostel?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What were your functions as such? What were you to do as an SPU member?

MR CHAMANE: We were to protect the members, the IFP members and protect ourselves against the attacks.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Would that include counter-attacks, should you be attacked by people from the ANC?

MR CHAMANE: We were protecting ourselves in many ways. We would protect ourselves whenever they were attacking us. Sometimes we would protect ourselves in other ways, that if we have heard that they would be coming to attack us, we would first go there and attack them first, just before attacking us. We would prevent them from attacking us because we knew very well that if they could come and attack, many people would be injured.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now as a member of the SPU were you also sometimes instructed to patrol or guard people's houses and if so, please give us the details thereof.

MR CHAMANE: As a person who was working, yes I would go to a house, after a house was attacked, I would go there, but I wouldn't be there for long. We would only go there, it's not that we were patrolling and getting into people's houses, we'd go to a particular house that is attacked at that particular moment.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Ms van der Westhuizen was asking, was it part of your function as a member of the SPU to guard houses of certain people?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chamane, you heard the evidence of Mr Zimu yesterday who said that you frequented the house of Mr Khumalo. Will you please explain what happened? Did you go to Mr Khumalo's house on a regular basis and what did you do there?

MR CHAMANE: No, I was not frequenting Mr Khumalo's house. I would go there sometimes and I wouldn't stay for long and I would go back again.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What would you do there?

MR CHAMANE: I would go there and sometimes there would be soldiers and police who were guarding the house. I would check if they were there or not, but if they were not there, I would just stick around and check if there were other people who had time to guard the house. If the police were not there I would just go there and spend some time and go back home. Even if the police were there or not, I would go there. I would go back again to my place. I would just check the situation and inquire if there had been any attack or not, then I would go back to the hostel.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now you going to Mr Khumalo's house, would that actually include you going inside the house, or what were you doing there?

MR CHAMANE: I wouldn't get inside the house, I would just end up in the yard, not inside the house.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: On these occasions, were you alone or would there be other youth members with you?

MR CHAMANE: Sometimes I would be with other members, sometimes I would go there alone and find the others there.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms van der Westhuizen, can I just interpose here? Mr Chamane, why did you go to Khumalo's house? Did anybody instruct you or was it your own initiative?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, induna Mkhondo instructed us to visit that house because of the attacks.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you know of particular attacks on Khumalo's house?

MR CHAMANE: Yes. There was an incident but I was not present. I heard the people saying that the house was attacked.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Ms van der Westhuizen.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Mr Chamane. Now the children of Mr Khumalo, did you know any of them personally? Were you friends with any of them? Can you explain?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I used to know one of them. We were not that close, to such an extent that I could call him my friend, that was Mzwakhe.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Was he an IFP member according to your knowledge?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that's what I knew.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now I want to take you back to the specific day. After you arrived at Mr Khumalo's house where you hear there was a night vigil, or a night vigil supposed to take place for Mrs Khumalo, when you arrived there which of your friends were there?

MR CHAMANE: There was Mondli, Sabelo Vilakazi and the others, but I did not know them that much and I can also not remember their names.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You said that there were many people. What were you talking about?

MR CHAMANE: I said the people who used to go to Mr Khumalo's place, the people who were with me there.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, I don't think you understood me well. What were you discussing, what were you talking about, the group of people standing outside the house of the Khumalos?

MR CHAMANE: We were discussing about violence and the attacks, as the people were being attacked daily. We were discussing and trying to find a solution to protect our own people from dying and we were discussing strategies to prevent the attacks, to make it a point that we attacked them first before attacking us. Those were the discussions that were taking place, because we wanted to put an end to this dying of our own people, we had to do something. We had to kill these people to let them feel the pain that they're inflicting in our own people. Those were the discussions that were taking place on that particular day.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Were you discussing anything about the death of Mrs Khumalo?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that was in our discussions also. We had heard that it is possible that during the funeral the following day, we would be attacked, that is why we were discussing, we were trying to find a solution or strategy to prevent the people from attacking us, making preparations for the funeral.

MR CHAMANE: You mentioned earlier on something about induna Mkhondo who spoke to you. What did he say to you, what happened regarding him?

MR CHAMANE: Induna Mkhondo told me that the following day during the funeral, it is possible that the people would come and attack us, therefore we had to prepare ourselves and it was possible that they would come and attack at the house, therefore on that particular day we had to stay there, not to leave the house, because the police were not there because sometimes they would come and guard the house, sometimes they wouldn't be there.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now when you went to Khumalo's house, did you have your AK47 with you, or when did you get your AK47?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I had my AK47 rifle with me. They actually brought it to me. Before going to Khumalo's place I had no firearm because I was coming from work. The induna brought the firearm to me and he also gave me the instruction not to leave the house.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Which induna are you referring to?

MR CHAMANE: That is Mkhondo, induna Mkhondo.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now whilst you were standing outside Mr Khumalo's house, you said that some people arrived there. Please just explain what happened whilst you were standing there. Who arrived and what happened next?

MR CHAMANE: We were still standing there. Four people came. When they came we went to them. Mondli inquired as to their identities and the other one said he was Themba Zimu and Thulani Mlaba and the other one was Buthelezi, though I cannot remember the name. They introduced themselves.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now before that day had you heard about Thulani or Zimu?

MR CHAMANE: I used to hear about Thulani Mlaba and Zimu before that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. You said Mr Chamane that four people came, Zimu, Mlaba and Buthelezi. Do you know who the fourth one was?

MR CHAMANE: Three people came, I was mistaken, that was Themba Zimu, Thulani and the other one who's surname was Buthelezi.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What did you used to hear about Thulani?

MR CHAMANE: One gentleman called Mafulela, it was said that he had a brother called Thulani Mlaba.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And Themba Zimu, did you hear anything about him?

MR CHAMANE: I heard about him from his sister. I used to know his sister as an IFP member. We were together in the Youth Brigade. She had a brother Themba Zimu, but he was in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Themba Zimu the person that gave evidence here yesterday?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now did you know whether they were IFP members?

MR CHAMANE: I did not know that but I knew only the people who were close to them, that they were IFP members, but I did not know them as members of IFP.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: So what happened after they arrived?

MR CHAMANE: They got inside with Mondli. Mondli followed them inside. After a short while Mondli came back and they also came back and with Mzwakhe. Mzwakhe further explained about these people.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What do you mean Mzwakhe explained about these people? Which people are you referring to?

MR CHAMANE: When they came from the house, Mzwakhe told us that he knew Themba as a taxi driver and he even explained about Thulani and he said that he was Mafulela's brother and I used to know Mafulela and he also told us that those were the people who used to go to that house and the other one, he even mentioned that he was also a friend of theirs, that is Thulani and this other gentleman from Buthelezi.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now Thulani Mlaba and Themba Zimu, did they join the group of people who were standing talking to each other outside the house?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, they came to us and we discussed. Mzwakhe went back to the house, leaving us outside as we were discussing there.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What were you talking about?

MR CHAMANE: We were discussing about the attacks on IFP member in Thokoza and we were discussing about the funeral and as we heard that we were going to be attacked during the funeral, we were trying to get a plan to prevent the attacks.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you discuss where these attacks were coming from?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, we did discuss about that, about the people who were discussing that they were ANC members and we were trying to find a solution to protect the IFP members against the attacks from the ANC members. That is where different opinions came about and the people would say whatever they knew about the attackers.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Thulani Mlaba did he tell you where he thought the attackers were coming from?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct. He told us that he knew that the people who were attacking us were coming from Natalspruit, the people who were attacking the IFP members.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What happened after that?

MR CHAMANE: After the discussion, Thulani took us to the place where those people were gathered and he told us where to find those people. He said he knew where those people were in Natalspruit. We discussed there with the people who were with me as to who was going to go there with Thulani so that we would later attack them. We reached an agreement that I had to go with Thulani and see those people. 

&#9;We left, the four of us. I was the fourth one. I went to that place.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Before you continue, can you just tell us, was there at the Khumalo's house, according to your knowledge, was there already a decision taken by the group to attack these people, or what were you going to do at this place where you would find them?

MR CHAMANE: I thought that we were going to that place and see those people, and know their whereabouts and we would decide as to how to attack them and we would come back and we would talk to the other people, the other group of people leaving this other group behind. Taking another group of people to go and attack there later on.

CHAIRPERSON: From what you're saying Mr Chamane, would it be correct to say that when you left with Thulani Mlaba, Themba Zimu and Buthelezi to go to take a look at these people, as far as you were concerned, that was just a reconnaissance? You were just going to take a look and see what the situation was, how many people etc were there and then you would come back and then plan an attack?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is what was on my mind. I just went there to see those people, to see the place, so that we can make a plan. I heard that it was quite a large number of people. I would just go there, I was prepared to go there and look at the place and make a reconnaissance.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms van der Westhuizen.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms van der Westhuizen before you continue can I just ask one question? Where was Mzwakhe Khumalo when you discussed to go there? Was he in the group?

MR CHAMANE: Mzwakhe was not in that group. We were all alone with these gentlemen.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who left the Khumalo's house together with you?

MR CHAMANE: It was myself, Themba Zimu, Thulani Mlaba and one gentleman, whose surname was Buthelezi.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: From Khumalo's house, where did you go?

MR CHAMANE: From Khumalo's house, on our way still in Thokoza, we were discussing with Thulani on the way. I told Thulani that if it happens that I get a chance there, I would not need a large number of people to attack, I'll just start shooting and Thulani said if we think it's possible to attack those people , he was also prepared to do that because he wanted them to stop attacking IFP so that it could be safe to go to the funeral the following day. He further said that we should go to a certain place. We did not go straight to Ngema, we went to Twala Section, so that we could, I would be able to teach someone as to how to operate the firearm, as I was told by Thulani that he couldn't operate a firearm.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: To which house did you go to? Do you know the name of the owner of the house?

MR CHAMANE: Thulani told me that there was a friend of his there in Twala Section. He told us to go there so that I could get a chance to show Themba how to use the firearm. We went to that house, that is where I heard about a person called Bashini. A person who was very close to Thulani. 

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now what gun was Mr Themba Zimu carrying?

MR CHAMANE: It was an AK47 rifle.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And you, did you also still have your AK47?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Can you remember what gun Mr Thulani Mlaba had?

MR CHAMANE: Thulani had a 9mm shotgun and this other gentleman had a firearm, an AK47.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What happened at Bashini's house?

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed, Ms van der Westhuizen, just to make it complete. Do you know where Themba Zimu and Buthelezi and Thulani got their firearms or did they have them when you saw them?

MR CHAMANE: I do not have any idea but as far as, from what I heard from Thulani, this 9mm belonged to him, that is Thulani. I did not ask the others.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What happened at Mr Bashini's house?

MR CHAMANE: When we arrived there, there were people in the yard, not inside the house but outside in the yard. Thulani talked to one of them, that was Bashini and after that he told us to get inside the house. They led us to the bedroom. When we arrived there Thulani instructed me to show Themba the firearm, how to use the firearm and Bashini left the bedroom and then I did as he said. I showed him as to how to operate the AK47. We finished that. We left the house for Ngema Section.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, is Ngema Section in Natalspruit?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Who were the people who left Bashini's house?

MR CHAMANE: The people who left Bashini's house was the four of us, myself, Themba Zimu, Thulani Mlaba and this person whose name was Buthelezi.

MR CHAMANE: Now when you arrived at Ngema Section, who pointed out the specific house where you say you were supposed to go to?

MR CHAMANE: It was Thulani as the person who was leading the group. He is the one who pointed at the house.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Do you still remember the number of that house?

MR CHAMANE: I did not see the number of the house, but I later heard that it was number 321, but I did not see it at the time.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Was it the first time for you to go near to that specific area?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: What happened at that house?

MR CHAMANE: When we got there, we stood there, leaning against the wall, the wall of the four-roomed house. As we were still leaning against that wall, one person came out with a glass. When he came, Thulani told him to go back, to go out of that place, not to go back inside the house. The person left and the other people came and Thulani told them to go back inside the house. He followed them, pointing them with a firearm and I followed Thulani. We got inside the house. As we were getting in the house, we went to another house inside the yard, not the one whose wall we were leaning against. We started shooting in that particular house, in the same house as Thulani was still pointing with the firearm.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I just want you to go a bit slower and explain with whom you were. You say - let's just go back. You say that a group of people were directed to go back into the house, or back into the yard. You say: "We were following them." Who was behind this group of people and where were you?

MR CHAMANE: We were from that wall. The person who was following there was Themba, Thulani but Themba was also in that vicinity, but I cannot remember where, but I was following Thulani, Thulani was following those people. The firing had already started by the time as Thulani told them to get back inside the house.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you see where Mr Buthelezi was?

MR CHAMANE: No, at the time I did not know where he was, that is Mr Buthelezi.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now the room where you went to where you said that you and Thulani started firing, were there many people in that room?

MR CHAMANE: Yes. there were many people in that house.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Was Mr Thulani standing next to you, or was he behind you? Can you try and indicate?

MR CHAMANE: Thulani was walking in front of me but as we were there in front, just before the door, he went back, he stepped back and he gave me the chance to shoot, because we couldn't be able to stand at the door, the two of us, therefore he stepped back.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And at that stage Mr Zimu, was he with you or did you see him go to another house or room?

MR CHAMANE: He was not there with us. It was the only two of us, Themba Zimu went to another house. There was a door that looked like it was a four-roomed house. He did not follow us to this other house.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you fire a lot of shots? Can you remember?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct. We shot there. A lot of bullets were released, directed at those people.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed. Were any shots fired at you by the people inside that room?

MR CHAMANE: There was a shot that rained, but I cannot say so. They did not shoot at me. I'm not sure I did not know where it was coming from. I did not know anyone who was shooting at our direction, pointing at our direction.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: That shot that you heard, could it have been coming from Mr Thulani Mlaba's gun? Is it possible?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is possible.

ADV BOSMAN: Ms van der Westhuizen, can I just clarify something here? Mr Chamane, who started the shooting? Who shot first, do you know?

MR CHAMANE: The person who shot first, I do not have an idea as we were there because we heard this firing, but as we were following the people getting into the house, the first person that I saw shooting was Thulani and after that he gave me a chance to shoot.

ADV BOSMAN: Did he give you a chance, or did he tell you to shoot?

MR CHAMANE: He did not tell me to shoot, but as he was shooting, he had started shooting, then he stepped back. I thought he was giving me a chance, because we couldn't stand at the door all at the same time.

ADV BOSMAN: What I don't understand and perhaps you can clarify that for me is I understood your evidence to be that you were going there just to scout out the location of the place and to see how many people were there and then you would go back and discuss, so when did this change of plan, this plan to shoot now, when did that take place?

MR CHAMANE: The plan changed on our way. I told Thulani on our way that if the environment is conducive for us to shoot, I can do that, I can start the shooting, but if there is no chance at all, I'd go back and report to the other people and Thulani told me that he was also prepared to shoot at those people if there was a chance, therefore we had to work together. That is when Thulani told me to show the other gentleman as to how to operate this firearm. We went to the particular house with the aim of teaching this other one as to how to use the firearm, because we were thinking that if there is a chance for us to shoot, we could so.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chamane, when you fired these shots at the people, your aim was to kill as many people as you can, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, this shooting incident, did it happen quickly, or was it over a couple of minutes? Can you give any indication?

MR CHAMANE: This incident, this shooting incident, was very very quick. I cannot even say how long did it take but it was very, very quick.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now after you stopped firing, what happened then?

MR CHAMANE: After that we went out. One of us called upon us to leave, I cannot say whether it was Thulani or Themba. We then left the place running.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Where did you go to?

MR CHAMANE: We went rushing to the hostel.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: On your way back to the hostel, were any shots fired on you?

MR CHAMANE: On our way to the hostel, as we went past a certain street, we heard people firing at us and we also shot back.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now according to your evidence, you heard the evidence of Mr Zimu who said that you went first back to Mr Bashini's house and that there was some other house pointed out. Do you recall that happening?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I heard him saying so, but I cannot remember that. Actually that never happened.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now after that incident how did you feel? Were you happy about what you've done? I'm referring to that specific night?

MR CHAMANE: After this incident, I was very happy. Very, very happy about this incident, what we did, because I had a belief that no-one, no IFP member will ever be attacked again by those people and I was so sure that they had felt the pain. I was very, very happy because they had got what they had - they were actually feeling the pain that they used to inflict on other people.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now you heard also Mr Zimu testify that there was a so-called hit list of people that you were supposed to go and attack. Have - that evening before you set out for Khumalo's house, were you aware of any such list? Were any of these names read in your presence?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: No, I did not see the hit list. I did not even hear about that list. All I knew was that the people who were our enemies were ANC people. It was not important for us to write their names down. I did not see the list.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Did you, at Mr Khumalo's house that night before you left or that late evening, did you hear him give any orders? Were you present when he gave any order that you should go and attack people?

MR CHAMANE: No. I did not hear anything like that because I was standing outside. I do not know what of that took place inside the house, but I did not hear him or anyone giving a person an instruction as to who to shoot.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Chairperson that concludes the evidence.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms van der Westhuizen. I think we may as well - we can start with the cross-examination for ten minutes, then have tea. Mr Padi, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?

MR PADI: Yes, I do, Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PADI: Mr Chamane, when was the first time you went to Mr Khumalo's house? Can you recall at all?

MR CHAMANE: Even though I cannot remember very well, it could have been around November/October 1992, I cannot recall quite well.

MR PADI: What was your reason for going to Mr Khumalo's house?

MR CHAMANE: The reason - I went to Khumalo's place to sympathise with him on what was happening so that if the attackers came while I was there, I too had to protect him. Fight the attackers, shoot them. That is, if the police were not there, because sometimes the police were not there.

MR PADI: Did anyone give you instructions to go to Mr Khumalo when you went there for the first time?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, there is one person.

MR PADI: Who is that?

MR CHAMANE: Mkhondo.

MR PADI: Mr Chamane, were you at any stage instructed to guard Mr Khumalo's house?

MR CHAMANE: Yes.

MR PADI: Do you know the reasons for that?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I do.

MR PADI: Can you please tell the Court?

CHAIRPERSON: You referred to us as the Court, we're not the Court.

MR CHAMANE: Will you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, why were you instructed to guard the house? You said that when you first went to the house, you were instructed by Induna Mkhondo. Now Mr Padi's asking you why were you instructed to guard the house?

MR CHAMANE: He instructed me to guard the house, because he had been attacked.

MR PADI: Mr Chamane, am I understanding your evidence well by saying that you actually went to Mr Khumalo's house on more than one occasion?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: Were you instructed to go there on each occasion that you went there?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I had been instructed, even though I was not going to the Khumalo household on a daily basis, but yes, I was instructed, but then I must indicate that this instructions did not come to me on a daily basis, it just came once off to the effect that I should go to the place.

MR PADI: So the instructions came once and were to the effect that you should constantly go to Mr Khumalo's house. Am I correct?

MR CHAMANE: It came twice.

MR PADI: Was the second instruction the one that you referred to earlier that when you were returning from work after the 22nd of January, you met an induna who told you to go to the Khumalos?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: Mr Chamane, you gave evidence to the effect that when you got to Mr Khumalo's house on the day of the attack of the Tavern at Ngema Section, you saw people who used to go to Khumalo's place, am I correct?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR PADI: So you actually had knowledge of the people who frequented Khumalo's place?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR PADI: So you actually frequented Khumalo's place?

MR CHAMANE: Not on a daily basis. Yes, I used to go to Khumalo's place but not on a daily basis.

ADV BOSMAN: May I just get clarity here? There might be some confusion I think. Did you, when you went to Khumalo's place, did you just go sort of around the house, or did you go into the house to speak to the Khumalos, what was the position?

MR CHAMANE: I would talk to the people who were guarding the household, those are the people that I would talk to and these were the regulars at the Khumalos.

ADV BOSMAN: You did not go inside to talk to the Khumalos themselves?

MR CHAMANE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't used to go and have discussions with the Bishop? The Arch Bishop?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR PADI: Mr Chamane, did Mr Mbhekiseni Khumalo know you, or does he know you?

MR CHAMANE: I don't know whether he knows me, but I know him. You see I never talked to him.

MR PADI: So you never actually exchanged words with Mr Mbhekiseni Khumalo?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct, I never had a word with him. The one person that I used to have chats with was his son, Mzwakhe.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Padi, when it's convenient, when you are getting on to a different point we can adjourn for tea, but only when its convenient.

MR PADI: Thank you, Mr Chair. I think it is convenient at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We're going to now take a short tea adjournment and then we'll resume, let's try for twenty past eleven if that's possible. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: It's getting warm now, if you wish to remove your jackets, please feel free to do so. Mr Padi you were busy questioning the witness.

MR PADI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NICHOLAS ZWILE CHAMANE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PADI: (cont) 

&#9;Mr Chamane, you gave evidence that you heard that there was going to be an attack on Mr Khumalo's house on the day of the funeral of the wife of Mr Khumalo is that so?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: Where did you hear this from?

MR CHAMANE: I heard from induna Mkhondo and the other people that I found at Khumalo's place.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, when you say you heard that, did you just hear the people saying that or did they have any sort of compelling evidence to back up the assertion that there would be an attack or is that just what they expected or assumed may happen?

MR CHAMANE: They were so certain because induna Mkhondo issued an instruction telling me not to leave the place because the people might come and attack later.

MR PADI: To follow up on that question, Mr Chamane, did they tell you that they were told by someone who's maybe belonging to the ANC or to whatever group that was going to attack or on what did they base their suspicion that there was going to be an attack?

MR CHAMANE: I did not ask them and I did not even ask the induna as to where those suspicions were coming from, but I assumed that those were the people - the people who were talking there at Khumalo's place, I assumed that they also got that information from the induna, but I do not know where the induna got that information from.

MR PADI: You gave evidence that whilst you were at Mr Khumalo's place, three people came that you mentioned were Thulani Mlaba, Themba Zimu and Buthelezi, is that so?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: for the sake of clarify Mr Chamane, can you tell the Committee if - because you indicated that you have never seen the - or if there was any one of the three persons that you have seen before at Mr Khumalo's place?

MR CHAMANE: Do you mean before that particular day or when?

MR PADI: Yes, before that day but at Khumalo's place.

MR CHAMANE: No, there's no one.

MR PADI: You again gave evidence that you had some form of a gathering where Mzwakhe Khumalo was present, together with these guys that you were seeing for the first time and there was a discussion that eventually led to you leaving the place for Ngema Section. Can you tell the Committee as to who else was there other than the three gentlemen that you mentioned yourself and Mzwakhe Khumalo?

MR CHAMANE: There was Mondli Sebelo Vilakazi and the others, I cannot remember their names. There was also Buthelezi.

MR PADI: Were they all part of the discussion?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: Whilst you were there gathering, did you notice either Mr Thulani Mlaba, Mr Zimu or Mr Buthelezi carrying a firearm on them?

MR CHAMANE: No. I did not notice anyone with a firearm.

MR PADI: Were they maybe wearing big jackets that could hide their weapons, if they were having them, or from your perspective, could it be possible that they had firearms on them, but you could not see them because of the clothing that they were wearing?

MR CHAMANE: That could be possible but Thulani was not wearing any baggy clothes, he only showed me on the way. It is possible that they had their firearms at the time, but I only noticed on the way.

MR PADI: Were you aware or could you remember what Mr Zimu was wearing and what Mr Buthelezi was wearing at the time?

MR CHAMANE: No, I cannot remember but what he had, the top was a warm sweater, but I cannot remember the colours or the other types of clothes they had. One of them was wearing some coat, I cannot remember whether it was Themba or the other one, the Buthelezi guy.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Padi's getting at is, the AK47 is a fairly large firearm, is it not?

MR CHAMANE: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now if you were standing discussing matters as you've described with Thulani and Themba and Buthelezi and if Themba and Buthelezi had an AK47, wouldn't you have seen it?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I could have seen it. It is also a big firearm, but it is easy to hide it if someone is wearing some big, baggy clothes. You can only see it when you get closer to that particular person, to see whether he's got a firearm or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Well this is what Mr Padi is asking you about the clothing. Were they wearing such clothing that they possibly could have been hiding it or would you say not?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, they were wearing baggy clothes that could enable them to hide the firearms, though I cannot remember the colours, but I can still remember that they were wearing some baggy clothes.

MR PADI: Mr Zimu, you testified that, Mr Chamane, sorry, you testified that a gun was brought to you by an induna from the hospital, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR PADI: How long were you at Mr Khumalo's place before the gun was brought to you?

MR CHAMANE: It was, I think, a second. The induna left and shortly came back with the rifle.

MR PADI: Were you in the presence of the people, Themba Zimu, Buthelezi and Mlaba when the gun was brought to you?

MR CHAMANE: They had not yet arrived. They only arrived after I had took receipt of the firearm.

MR PADI: Was the firearm given to you in full view of all the people who were in the yard, or how was it given to you?

MR CHAMANE: Not in front of the people who were gathering there but one person witnesses the receipt of the firearm. There were no other people, only three were there when I took receipt of the firearm.

MR PADI: According to your experience in the IFP, was it common practice for ordinary members to make decisions to the effect of attacking certain places or certain people without consulting the leadership?

MR CHAMANE: As far as I know, I'm referring here specifically to the person who was giving us instructions, he had the authority to give us instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are you referring to?

MR CHAMANE: I'm referring here to Mkhondo.

MR PADI: Who was Mkhondo?

MR CHAMANE: He was an induna with whom I fled Khalanyoni to Mshayazafe Hostel.

MR PADI: So is it your evidence that Mkhondo gave yourself, Zimu, Buthelezi and Mlaba instructions to go and attack the tavern at Ngema Section?

MR CHAMANE: No he did not give us such instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: You see that is why Mr Padi asked whether it was common practice for ordinary members to carry out attacks, to make a decision and carry out attacks.

MR PADI: Mr Chamane, let's take this a step back. You just indicated that the person who gave you instructions was a person of authority and you referred to him as induna Mkhondo, is that so?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR PADI: What instructions did he give you?

MR CHAMANE: He gave us instructions to the effect that we had to protect our own people, the people who were being attacked in the township. He indicated that we had to do all in our power to protect these people.

MR PADI: Was it on the day of the supposed night vigil?

MR CHAMANE: It was before that. It could have been around 1991, but it was long before the day of the night vigil.

MR PADI: Mr Chamane, did anyone give you instructions to go and attack the Ngema Section in particular? Did anyone address yourself, Mr Buthelezi, Mr Zimu and Mr Mlaba to go and attack the tavern at Ngema Section?

MR CHAMANE: No, no one.

MR PADI: So you just took it upon yourselves as ordinary members to go and attack, is that so?

MR CHAMANE: I took a decision to effect that if I came across any one of these people, I was going to attack them so that they should not attack us on our way to the funeral and Thulani supported this idea and that is when he started showing Themba how to operate the firearm.

ADV SIGODI: You say if you saw these people that you were going to attack. Do you know any of the people who were killed at that tavern? Did you know them, the deceased and the injured?

MR CHAMANE: I did not know a single one of the people who got injured, but I had this firm belief that these people belonged to the ANC and they were planning on attacking us the following day. I did not know them personally.

ADV SIGODI: What made you think that they were ANC?

MR CHAMANE: I had heard prior to our departure at the night vigil, or at that place, I had gathered that these are the ANC people. That is at least according to the information that I got from Thulani.

ADV SIGODI: Were there no two people who happened to know Thulani at that time, who were called out by Thulani?

MR CHAMANE: If I still recall very well, there is one person whom Thulani sent away saying he should not go back into the tavern, but yes I do remember that Thulani sent one person away.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know why that person was sent away?

MR CHAMANE: I do not know, but I concluded that Thulani must have known that that person was not a member of the ANC, because he did not send the other people away, so I concluded that Thulani must have known that the person was not a member of the ANC because he spoke to him.

ADV SIGODI: Did you foresee that there could well be people there who were not ANC in that tavern, people who you did not know who could possibly be IFP? You did not consider that possibility?

MR CHAMANE: That did not occur to me because in so far as the IFP, or I am concerned, I cannot recall being told that there was an IFP member residing in that area. In all honesty, there was no IFP member in that area.

ADV SIGODI: How did you identify ANC people? How did you identify your target?

MR CHAMANE: One could not have identified or told between the members of the two organisations, because there were no visible indications unless you were told by the person him or herself, so that I shot at these people because I had a firm belief after being told by Thulani that these were ANC members.

ADV SIGODI: Continue.

MR PADI: Thank you. Mr Chamane, did Mr Mlaba tell you that he got instructions from anyone to go to Ngema tavern in particular?

MR CHAMANE: He did not.

MR PADI: When you were still discussing the possibilities of attacking Ngema Section, did it ever come up that the people who hung around there were actually dangerous people who usually carry guns?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, it did occur to me but I must point out from the onset that I regarded all ANC members as dangerous. That is why it was important that Thulani be taught or shown how to operate the firearm. I knew that these people were dangerous and I pointed out to them that should the conditions not be conducive, we would go back without having carried out our mission, so that this is an indication that we had a prior knowledge as to how dangerous these people were.

ADV SIGODI: In your evidence you've testified that you met Thulani for the first time on that day, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Now what made you to believe Thulani when he told you that tavern was patronised by ANC people to the extent that you could actually take your firearm and go and shoot? What made you to believe him?

MR CHAMANE: Thulani had grown up in that township. He knew the people in the township. He knew the ANC people in the township. He lived among them.

ADV SIGODI: How did you know that because you had met him for the first time that day?

MR CHAMANE: When they came Thulani and Mzwakhe, each one of them explained themselves. They gave us their backgrounds and it occurred to me, following their explanations that they knew the people in the township.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Padi, just before you carry on, may I just ask one question here? You said that you would shoot if it was conducive, what would you have regarded as conducive circumstances? If they were not armed?

MR CHAMANE: I would reconnoitre the area and try to establish which spots were conducive for us from which to shoot without being shot at, so that we could just shoot at these people, without them not being able to shoot back at us. That is the conducive condition that I am talking about.

ADV BOSMAN: From the evidence so far, my impression was that they could have shot at you. I mean you went into the tavern. If they had arms with them, could they not have shot back? You were not hiding anywhere.

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is a possibility, if they were armed, that is.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you started shooting you didn't know that everybody in the tavern was unarmed.

MR CHAMANE: Yes, we did not know.

ADV BOSMAN: Was it regarded as conducive? You were open targets.

MR CHAMANE: May the question please be repeated?

ADV BOSMAN: Why did you regard it as conducive because you were also open targets, you went into the tavern?

MR CHAMANE: We concluded that the conditions were conducive because we had arrived at the place, Thulani had sent back some of the people into the tavern and there was no indication that they had firearms pointed at us. That is the reason why we concluded that the conducive conditions called upon us to shoot.

ADV BOSMAN: If I understand you correctly then, one of the reasons was because you established they had no firearms?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR PADI: Thank you, Committee Members. Mr Chamane you said that when you met induna Mkhondo, he gave you instructions to go to Mr Khumalo's house and actually guard the house. Is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR PADI: And the reason why he brought you the gun was particularly to guard Mr Khumalo's house, is that so?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR PADI: So you actually went against the instructions of your leader on that day by going to Ngema tavern, is that your evidence?

MR CHAMANE: No, I did not. 

MR PADI: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PADI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Padi. Mr Swanepoel, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?

MR SWANEPOEL: I have no question, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DLAMINI: Thank you Honourable Chair. Mr Chamane, if I understand you correctly, the reason you went to Mr Khumalo's house on the night of the attack of Ngema Section, was basically the fact that tomorrow there was going to be the funeral of Mr Khumalo's late wife, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that's the reason, but that's not the only reason because you see, we had in mind that there was going to be a shooting taking place at Mr Khumalo's household.

MR DLAMINI: Now when Mr Padi asked you whether you had spoken to Mr Khumalo on that day, you said you didn't speak to him. I just want clarity on this. Part of the reason was that tomorrow was going to be a funeral. It was Mr Khumalo's late wife and customarily, because it was a bereavement, you would approach Mr Khumalo to pass your condolences. You never approached him to pass your condolences on his late wife?

MR CHAMANE: That was not the day of sympathising with people or passing condolences on to people whose family member have passed away.

MR DLAMINI: Are you saying the entire week prior to that Friday you never spoke to him since the news came to you that his wife had passed away? You had never spoken to him at all, Mr Khumalo?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: Let's go back to your application. It's page 95 volume 1, Mr Chair. I think page 5, the other one is 99 on the bold markings, paragraph 11 (b). The questions are - he talks about giver of an order:

&#9;&#9;"If so state particular of such order, approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of the person who gave such order or approval." 

And the name written there is Thulani Mlaba. Are you saying in your affidavit that Mr Mlaba gave you the order to go and attack Ngema Section?

MR CHAMANE: No. He did not give us the instruction, I was trying to respond in saying the one person who knew everything was Thulani Mlaba.

MR DLAMINI: But why didn't you also Mr Zimu and Mr Mondli and others know also, why didn't you mention their name if that was your understanding of this question? Why did you write Thulani Mlaba?

MR CHAMANE: Because he is the one who knew the place, he is the one who gave us the details of the place that was targeted.

MR DLAMINI: Now you said at some stage when Thulani, Buthelezi and Mr Zimu arrived at some stage themselves and Mondli went inside the house at Mr Khumalo's house and left you outside. Is that correct? Did I understand you correctly?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct. They left me standing outside with others.

MR DLAMINI: You can say yes if you want. Is it possible then that at that stage they were given the list or the order to go and attack Ngema Section, would that be a possibility?

MR CHAMANE: I would not know. Yes, it's possible, but if that was the case they did not tell me the contents of their discussion with Mr Khumalo. They were supposed to have told me, but they did not.

MR DLAMINI: You say induna Mkhondo, was he an IFP member?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: Did he hold any leadership position?

MR CHAMANE: No. I know not of any position that he held.

MR DLAMINI: You've said correctly that your leader was Mr Themba Msomi from the IFP Youth League, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: So I should presume that when you went to Ngema that day Mr Msomi was not there, he never told you to go and attack in Ngema Section?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: In fact, according to you, you only went there on the instruction of people whom you were meeting or on the agreement with people whom you were meeting for the first time that day, Mr Mlaba, Mr Zimu and Mr Buthelezi?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: So it is my understanding then, there was no direct order from your organisation to go and attack these people in Ngema Section, or from your leadership, Mr Msomi in particular.

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: You yourself, before this date, have you been to Ngema Section? Do you know Ngema Section?

MR CHAMANE: No.

MR DLAMINI: Would you agree with me that it's quite a distance from Thokoza and particularly from Mshayazafe Hostel, quite a distance?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Dlamini, if you could just give some indication, do you have any idea, because I have none whatsoever, are you talking kilometres or ...?

MR DLAMINI: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

MR DLAMINI: Sorry. Mr Chair, I'm looking at about 6/7 kilometres.

CHAIRPERSON: That is if one had to walk from, is it Penduka Section through to Ngema Section in Natalspruit? If you could just repeat your question please.

MR DLAMINI: My question to you is that, would you agree with me that from Penduka Section to Ngema Section is quite a distance? I'm looking at an average between 6 to 7 kilometres. Is that possible?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is possible.

MR DLAMINI: And it is also testimony that Ngema Section in fact, it's what is so-called ANC stronghold, or ANC area?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: And you had to pass another section before you arrived at Ngema, that is Twala Section where you met Bashini, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: That is also an ANC area, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: Alright, I'll come back to that just now. The night of the night vigil, there were people around, standing around, were there motor cars as well in front, in Mr Khumalo's house? Were there cars and people around?

MR CHAMANE: The only vehicles that were parked were vehicles belonging to the Khumalo household. There were only two such vehicles, that is if I remember very well.

MR DLAMINI: Were you not afraid to go to an ANC area, such a distance, particularly you yourself, not knowing this area, to go and do a reconnaissance? Didn't you think about using a motor vehicle perhaps?

MR CHAMANE: I was not scared. It was safe in so far as I'm concerned and one thing is that I did not know how far away it was from the hostel and there are areas that we could traverse on foot.

MR DLAMINI: Was there any discussion ever - did any discussion take place on whether to use a vehicle to the reconnaissance or the attack or from the- was there any other discussion around that?

MR CHAMANE: No, we did not.

MR DLAMINI: You never discussed it at all, the possibility of using a vehicle either to Ngema Section or from Ngema Section?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Dlamini, if I could just ask while you are on this? Did you know that Ngema Section existed at that time? Had you heard of Ngema Section before?

MR CHAMANE: No, I had not heard of the section before that day.

CHAIRPERSON: But Thulani Mlaba had said to you he knows of people who were going to attack and that they were in Ngema Section?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, he knew these people.

CHAIRPERSON: So didn't you ask him, you know when you decided to go and do reconnaissance work there, didn't you ask him: "Well how far are we going to go? Where is it?" Surely that would have been the obvious question to ask? 

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I did ask such a question. I think Buthelezi joined me in asking the question how far it was, because we had kept hoping that we would arrive at the place, but we just kept on walking.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Mr Chair. Let me refer you to bundle no 2 which is page 229 in bold letters, in bold numbers and page 39 in the typed number. Miss Sealy on your Section 29 inquiry asked you:

&#9;&#9;"Were you not afraid that while you would encounter the police on the way, or for that matter as you patrol, were you not worried about that?"

And then you answer was:

&#9;&#9;"The vehicle that we might have used from the attack was not available, so we had to walk on foot. We ran on foot to the hostel."

Now which vehicle are you talking about here because just now I asked you, you said there was never any question about any vehicle. Now which vehicle now which you were supposed to have used?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you see that Mr Chamane? It's right in the middle of the page. It says: 

&#9;&#9;"Mr Chamane: The vehicle that we might have used etc."

The question put to you by Mr Dlamini is, what vehicle were you referring to when you said that "the vehicle that we might have used from the attack was not available."

MR CHAMANE: I was referring to any vehicle that could have transported us. I'm talking here about procuring a vehicle from any one of the people such as Thulani for example, so there was no such a vehicle that could be used for this purpose. He did not bring the vehicle along.

MR DLAMINI: No Sir, I asked you specifically whether there was any discussion to use a motor vehicle to and from Ngema Section, you said no, there was none. Your answer here says: "The vehicle that we might have used from the attack, was not available". This implies to me that there was a discussion to use a vehicle. Was there such a discussion?

MR CHAMANE: No, we did not discuss the vehicle. I am saying here that there was no vehicle available that we could use for the purpose. I'm referring here to the people who accompanied me to Ngema Section for the attack. None of these people brought a vehicle along, so there was no vehicle available at our disposal for this purpose. The person who was leading us to Ngema did not have a vehicle, nor did the other two people. They did not say: "Gentlemen, here's a vehicle, let's use it for the mission." The vehicles that had parked at Khumalo's house had belonged to the Khumalo family.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what's bothering Mr Dlamini, is that if I have to go somewhere and I have to walk, I say "I had to walk there because I didn't have a vehicle". I don't say the vehicle that I might have used to go there wasn't available, so I had to walk. It's two different which is being said. What you're saying here is, you are implying that there was to be a vehicle, but because something happened, it wasn't available and because of that you had to walk. Now what you're saying to us here at this hearing is that you walked because there wasn't a vehicle available. There wasn't the possibility even of a vehicle being available. Perhaps it's a question of wording, but you can pursue the point, please Mr Dlamini.

MR DLAMINI: No I'll leave it at that, thank you Honourable Chair. Sir, you were asked again by the Honourable Committee Member if you knew any of the people whom you attacked at Ngema Section and you said you didn't know anybody in that tavern. Is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR DLAMINI: Did Thulani, when you entered the tavern, tell you that he recognises any ANC member, or he recognises anybody there? Did he tell you that?

MR CHAMANE: He told me on our way out and he said that it is okay that we have carried out our mission. He had in mind the feeling that these were ANC people.

MR DLAMINI: Okay. If I understand you, the reason why those people were shot, according to you, is that those people were ANC members and they were gathering in that house. That is the information that you had and you acted upon.

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, let me take you to bundle no 1, page 97 in bold letters, on your application again for amnesty and then you said there:

&#9;&#9;"Some of the deceased were part of the group that attacked our members. The said attackers were known to us."

Can you clarify what you meant by that?

CHAIRPERSON: It's right at the top of the page, Mr Chamane, the first writing at the top of page 97.

MR CHAMANE: As I said, some of these people, we knew them. I was not talking from - I was talking on behalf of Thulani because he's the person who knew those people because he's the person who told us where to find those people.

MR DLAMINI: Alright. You're saying the knowing part of it, but let's talk about the first part. 

&#9;&#9;"Some of the deceased were the part of the group that attacked our members."

How do you know this information, because your reason that you gave me now was that the only reason you attacked these people was that they were ANC members, now you are saying they attacked you. Which incident are you talking about - were you referring to when they attacked you?

MR CHAMANE: I am also including the people who shot at us because when we left, we were shot at. I'm also including those people. I thought that those people were ANC members who were called the SDU's, those were the people who attacked us on our way out.

MR DLAMINI: Were you attacked by the people you've just shot, who were dead in the tavern?

MR CHAMANE: I was just including them. On our way out to the hostel we were shot at on the way and we shot back therefore I am referring to those people, that some of them shot at us. I am including those people who shot at us because I had a belief that those were the ANC members.

MR DLAMINI: You're saying "Some of the deceased were part of the group that attacked our members". I'm saying, which of the deceased attacked your members and which incident, the deceased you're referring to here? Do you know, perhaps?

MR CHAMANE: When talking about the deceased, those were the people we had shot at Ngema Section. As we were discussing on our way we believed that those were the people, some of them were the people who used to attack our own people, IFP members. Among those people, the deceased, some of them were there, people who were attacking the IFP members.

MR DLAMINI: So that's your assumption?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct, that is what I was thinking.

MR DLAMINI: Right. When you returned back from this attack, you said you went back to the hostel. Who did you report this attack to? Did you report it to your IFP Youth Leader, Mr Msomi? Did you ever inform him about what has happened?

MR CHAMANE: No, I reported it to Mr Mkhondo.

MR DLAMINI: Thereafter, you reported to Mr Mkhondo and then what did you do? You went to sleep or did you go back to the Khumalo house, what did you do?

MR CHAMANE: When we got there, we went into a certain house and I went out to induna Mkhondo and I reported to him about the incident and after that we went to Khumalo's place.

MR DLAMINI: To do what at Khumalo's place now?

MR CHAMANE: We were supposed to report to Mondli, the people who were there when we left for Ngema. We had to go there and tell them what had happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Dlamini, to keep intervening. Mondli, what was his full name?

MR CHAMANE: It was Mondli, I cannot remember the surname, but the name was Mondli.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was he? What was he? What status did he hold within your group?

MR CHAMANE: He was just an ordinary person just like myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he your friend?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Dlamini.

MR DLAMINI: Thank you, Honourable Chair. Sir, I'm just going to put it to you that sitting back now where you are sitting, is it possible that on that day what happened in Ngema Section, that all you did was to shoot innocent people who were sitting in a tavern drinking. Is that possible? Looking back now.

MR CHAMANE: Right now at the moment I think that those people, though it is possible that they were not, all of them were not ANC members, but some of them were ANC members, that is what I think.

MR DLAMINI: So it possible that what you did that day was to attack people who were in a shebeen, drinking beer or whatever they were drinking and doing nothing else, is that possible? That you shot people who had nothing to do with the ANC, people who were just sitting in the shebeen and drinking? Just looking back, taking into account all what you've told us today?

MR CHAMANE: It is possible that there were people who had nothing to do with the ANC and it is also possible that some people there were ANC members. It is possible that they were not all ANC members, some of them were ANC members, but what I think is that all the people there were ANC members, as I was told by Thulani.

MR DLAMINI: Do you know why I am saying this to you? The impression I'm getting from you is that you acted on the instruction of a man, Thulani Mlaba, you've just met for the first time. You've never met him before. He's not your colleague, he's not, I don't know, you don't even know where he was IFP member or not. Based on that information you go out and attack people. I'm saying, based on what you are saying, there's a high possibility that the information that was given to you was wrong. Is that possible?

MR CHAMANE: As far as I'm concerned Thulani was a person from that township and he knew the people there. He wouldn't lead us to the people and say that those people gathered there were ANC members, he wouldn't just do that if there was no reason, that is why I'm saying it is possible that some of the people there were not ANC members, but most of the people were ANC members, the people who were ANC members. It is also possible that some of them had nothing to do with the attacks of our people, but I strongly believe that the people who died there, or injured, were ANC members., according to what I was told by Thulani, because Thulani knew the people from the township because he was also staying there. He wouldn't just implicate people for nothing and say that those people were ANC members. That is actually what I think. He pointed them out as ANC members, though it is possible that some of them were not ANC members as he managed to send one person away.

MR DLAMINI: Sir finally, I want to put it to you that what you did that day had nothing to do with politics or people who were ANC members. You acted on your own, you had no orders from any of your leaders, you did your own thing on that day. It has nothing to do with ANC people on that day or politics at all. You were acting on your own, you and Thulani.

MR CHAMANE: That is not correct.

MR DLAMINI: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DLAMINI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlamini. Mr Richard do you have any questions that you would like to put to the applicant?

MR RICHARD: I do, Chairperson. Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Sir, would you please refer to paragraph 10(a) on page 97 of the first volume? Now, you can see a hand-written answer to the question. Whose handwriting is that?

MR CHAMANE: That is my handwriting.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now the question put there is:

&#9;&#9;"State the political objective thought to be achieved."

And your answer to the question was"

&#9;&#9;"It was a revenge killing as they had killed an IFP member."

Now would you please explain what you meant by revenge?

MR CHAMANE: One of the reasons was that those people, as I believed that they were ANC members, ANC members had already attacked and killed a lot of IFP members, therefore that was one way of revenge, that was an action of revenge because of our people who had died.

MR RICHARD: So when you say: "as they had killed an IFP member", the word "an" means there was one IFP member's death who you were revenging. That's a mis-reading, or is it correct?

MR CHAMANE: It is written as if it is referring to one person, but I mentioned that they had killed, I did not say one person killed. It could be a misprint. I was actually talking about a group of people who were killed. That was not actually referring to one person. I was talking about all IFP members who were killed at that time.

MR RICHARD: Now, when had the Bishop Khumalo's wife died?

CHAIRPERSON: Before he answers that Mr Richard, I wonder if we could find out, or has it been mentioned, what day of the week was the 22nd of January, do you know? The 22nd of January, the night that this shooting took place at Ngema Section. What day of the week was that? In other words, what day was the funeral planned to be held on? Was it a Friday night and the funeral to be on a Saturday, or can't you remember?

MR CHAMANE: The funeral was going to be on Saturday and the incident took place on a Friday, if my memory serves me correctly, I think the date was the 22nd.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it was and now Mr Richard has asked you when, in relation to that night, did Mrs Khumalo die, do you know?

MR CHAMANE: I do not know but I think it was during that same week but I'm not sure as to what day of the week it was.

MR RICHARD: So, thank you Chair, when you say: "As they had killed an IFP member", isn't it correct to say that that member was Mrs Khumalo?

MR CHAMANE: One of them was Mrs Khumalo, but that was not, the revenge was not only because of Mrs Khumalo, but it was for all the people that, just before that incident, was when Mrs Khumalo had just died.

MR RICHARD: Now when you speak about "our mission" that Friday night, what do you mean?

MR CHAMANE: I do not understand, what mission?

MR RICHARD: During your evidence you repeatedly said that you and your colleagues that evening went out on what you term "our mission". Is that not correct? Have you not said that repeatedly today?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct. 

MR RICHARD: What was that mission that the group of you went out on?

MR CHAMANE: It was the action of revenge because of our people who were killed and to protect and to prevent more attacks on IFP members.

MR RICHARD: Now you came back from work that Friday evening and your induna Mkhondo, directed that you should go to Mr Khumalo's house. When you got there, how many people were there?

MR CHAMANE: I cannot remember very well as to how many people were outside.

CHAIRPERSON: An estimation will suffice, I don't think Mr Richard expected that you had actually counted them, just an estimation of the number of people that were at the Khumalo house when you arrived there from your work that day.

MR CHAMANE: Four to five people were outside the house.

MR RICHARD: That is other than yourself and the individuals who finally went on the mission, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: Pardon?

MR RICHARD: When you arrived, there were 4 to 5 people you say, now amongst those people, were there the people with whom you went on the mission later that evening?

MR CHAMANE: No, they were left behind.

MR RICHARD: Now from what I understand you've said earlier today, it was amongst those people that you started discussing what you would do later that evening, isn't it correct?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: And amongst those people there was one, Mzwakhe Khumalo who is known to you.

MR CHAMANE: Mzwakhe was not in that group of people. He was inside. He was inside the house. He wouldn't involve himself in there because he was still mourning the death of his mother.

MR RICHARD: Is it not correct that you spoke to Mzwakhe Khumalo that evening?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct. I talked to him after these people came, when these people had been introduced. Yes, I did talk to him.

MR RICHARD: And what was your discussion with him about?

MR CHAMANE: He was actually introducing those people, the group of people who came later. We were actually talking about those people, he was actually relating to their backgrounds.

MR RICHARD: Now by the time the other people had arrived, had you decided what the mission of the night was?

MR CHAMANE: The decision as to what was going to happen on that particular night was not yet taken.

MR RICHARD: But you had already discussed the idea of going out on a revenge killing.

MR CHAMANE: Yes, they came and they found us talking, but we were not actually talking about the actual revenge, but we were still trying to find a solution or rather a strategy of what was going to happen if those people come. What was going to happen if they come to Khumalo's place. We were still discussing around finding a solution.

MR RICHARD: Now, if I understand the position correctly, there 5 or 6, 4 or 5 people in the yard, who you joined, before the rest of your group came. You were discussing various options. My question then is, did you before the others arrived, discuss as one of the options, going out on a revenge killing?

MR CHAMANE: I don't think we were discussing the revenge, I think we were still discussing as to how to protect ourselves.

MR RICHARD: And earlier today you told us that one of the options open to you was a counter-attack, is that not correct?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that was one way of protecting ourselves, that if you manage to get a chance, if there is an eminent attack and then if you do get a chance to attack them before they attack you, meaning you render them powerless, but that was not yet discussed there.

MR RICHARD: Now let's go back to a geographical question. Mr Khumalo's house, in which section is it?

MR CHAMANE: In Dabane street, if my memory serves me well, in Thokoza.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what section it is, what the section is called?

MR CHAMANE: Penduka Section.

MR RICHARD: Now from what I've been told, it's also correct to say that in the Penduka Section, there were IFP and ANC people and that one particular road more or less divided the two groups from each other. Is that something that you might remember or not remember, or know about?

MR CHAMANE: The road that was used as a demarcation between ANC and IFP I cannot remember but all I knew was that the place was actually, the place consisted of IFP members, though there were some houses whose owners were ANC members, but the area actually, most people there were IFP members, thought there were other few houses there belonging to ANC members.

MR RICHARD: Now after Mzwakhe Khumalo had introduced the three additional people to you and described their backgrounds to you, where did those three people go? They went into the house, if I remember correctly.

MR CHAMANE: They did not get into the house. Mzwakhe left us there outside. We were talking together with these people, Themba and the others and the other people who came there, we were talking and Mzwakhe left and went into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: But did any of the three or all three of the three people, that is Zimu, Mlaba and Buthelezi, go into the Khumalo house that evening before you left with them?

MR CHAMANE: No, I cannot remember because after discussing, I started talking with the other three people who were with us before we talked aside, discussing as to who was going there to Ngema. I did not see any of them getting into the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, I'm under the same impression that you were but I can check my notes. I thought it was said earlier that they had gone into the house.

MR RICHARD: I had my place on my notes. Now was it possible that there were discussions between one of the three additional people to the group and people in the house that you did not know about?

MR CHAMANE: Will you please repeat the question Sir?

MR RICHARD: We've heard evidence and you were present at the hearing, that there were discussions between others in your group and people from the Khumalo household. My question is, is it possible that those discussions took place without your knowledge and outside your earshot?

MR CHAMANE: That is possible, but I do not know. When I was still talking to this other group of people who were with me, the other two people, that is also possible.

MR RICHARD: I don't fully understand you answer. When you say "it is possible" you say it could have happened. Am I understanding you correctly?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I am saying it could have been possible because after discussing about this, I stepped aside talking to Mondli and the other gentleman discussing as to who was going up there to Ngema. The other people were not stationery in one place. I did not even check on them as to what is it that they were doing actually. I was only concentrating on these two people that I was talking to, so I did not see them. That is possible that.

MR RICHARD: When you say you were only concentrating on two people to whom you were talking, which two people were you talking to?

MR CHAMANE: As we were discussing there after Mzwakhe had introduced these gentlemen, he explained everything to us as far as the ANC people were concerned and after that I talked to Mondli and the other guy, Vilakazi, we were discussing on the other side as to who was going to these people. I left them on the other side. I only concentrated on these two gentlemen, that is Mondli and Vilakazi.

MR RICHARD: So while you were talking to Mondli and Vilakazi, the others could have been doing anything and you would not have known what was happening, is that not correct?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is possible, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: And then some time later, as I understand your sequence of events, you all equipped with firearms discussed what to do next and walked off towards the Ngema Section.

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: And now from Mr Khumalo's house to the Ngema Section, how far approximately is it?

MR CHAMANE: I cannot say, but it is quite a distance, 6 to 7 kilometres. It was quite a distance. 

MR RICHARD: And how long would it take you to walk that distance? Twenty minutes, an hour, 10 minutes?

MR CHAMANE: I can say more than 20 minutes or 30 minutes because we were also delayed because we had to get into one of the houses in Twala Section.

MR RICHARD: So you wee prepared to walk a fair distance, visit another house carrying, if I remember correctly and here I stand corrected, three AK47s, a handgun, am I correct?

MR CHAMANE: I cannot say because before I did not know how long the distance was, that is why I was always asking them how far was the place. I did not anticipate that we were going to walk a long distance with firearms.

MR RICHARD: Now from what you could see from outside the house at Mr Khumalo's residence, how many people were inside? Were there some people inside?

MR CHAMANE: I do not know. There were people but I am not sure, I don't know how many people were there in the house, but I think there were people in the house.

MR RICHARD: And were people walking in and out of the house into the yard and back into the house?

MR CHAMANE: I did not see other people who were coming in and going out except for the three people who came inside and left. I did not see any other person coming in and getting out of the house because we were at the front side of the house next to the gate.

MR RICHARD: Now you've mentioned three people that you saw going in and out of the house, which three people were these?

ADV SIGODI: Mr Richard, sorry, can I just ask what is the purpose of this cross-examination? I mean, from your client's instruction, what is the main objection to this application?

MR RICHARD: The purpose of the cross-examination is that whatever this incident described as "our mission" was, was planned at the Khumalo's house with the knowledge of the Mzizis, both Khumalos and whoever else might have been in the house and that they are implicated people and that they were in the house and I'm trying to establish the idea of people forming a plan while standing talking in the yard, is a fabrication convenient to the moment of this hearing.

ADV SIGODI: But the evidence, we must try to avoid going over what the other counsel have already gone over. Thank you.

MR RICHARD: I stand corrected. I'll do my best to keep to appropriate. Right, now, do you know who was inside the house?

MR CHAMANE: I do not know who was in the house, but all I knew was that there was a family gathering and it is also possible that there were other family members or relatives from Khumalo Street, I think all of them were in there, but I cannot say for sure who was inside the house because I did not get inside. All I knew was that there were family members and relatives.

MR RICHARD: Now you've spoken of your induna Mkhondo, how many people belonged to his group?

MR CHAMANE: I do not know, but it was quite a large number. I do not understand when you say Mkhondo's group, but all I know people who were given an instruction to protect the IFP members, it was just a number of people, but I'm not sure what group you are referring to.

MR RICHARD: How often did you go and guard and protect Mr Khumalo's house?

MR CHAMANE: I would go there, but not every day, because I was working. I would go there and go back to my place. Not every day, but some people would go there if the police were not there, they would go there, but if the police were there, they wouldn't stay. 

MR RICHARD: Sir, that's not my question. My question was direct and simple. How many times approximately did you go and guard Mr Khumalo's house?

MR CHAMANE: I did not count. I do not know.

MR RICHARD: So it could well have been often?

MR CHAMANE: I was not going there on a daily basis.

MR RICHARD: I never said you were going there on a daily basis, but how often did you go there, 10, 20, 30, 50 times?

MR CHAMANE: In a week I would go and skip a day, sometimes I would go two days following one another, therefore I cannot know exactly how many times.

CHAIRPERSON: But you went many times?

MR CHAMANE: Yes.

MR RICHARD: And while you were doing that you saw who was coming in and out of Mr Khumalo's house, is that not correct? It was your business to make sure you knew exactly who came in and out of his house?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR RICHARD: And I put it to you that Mr and Mrs Mzizi often came in and out of that house.

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson, might I interrupt before the witness answers? Maybe a question that must put ...(indistinct - not speaking into mike)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Sorry Mr Richard, perhaps you should lace on some sort of foundation. We don't know whether this witness knows those people. Perhaps you should lead up to that and as Mr Swanepoel says, get some sort of - it's out of the blue that you're putting it to him.

MR RICHARD: Tell me, do you know who Mr and Mrs Mzizi are? How often did Mr Mzizi who is in the audience come in and out of that house?

MR CHAMANE: I did not see them, no, I did not see them.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, I did not get the answer when he was asked if he knew Mr and Mrs Mzizi.

MR RICHARD: Do you know who Mr Mzizi is?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I know him.

MR RICHARD: Did Mr Mzizi visit Mr Khumalo's house?

MR CHAMANE: I did not see him, at least not during my turn.

MR RICHARD: Which turn do you refer to?

MR CHAMANE: I am saying I did not see him during my turn guarding Khumalo's place. I did not even see his vehicle there, an indication that he might be around.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, are you referring to the day of the night vigil? Did you not see him on that day? Or are you referring at all times that you went to Mr Khumalo's place?

MR CHAMANE: I did not see him during my entire turn guarding Mr Khumalo's household, not only on that day of the 22nd. I am simply saying I did not ever see him at Khumalo's household.

ADV SIGODI: Where had you seen him before? Where did you know him from?

MR CHAMANE: His house was facing Madala Hostel, that's where I knew him from.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. We'll go to the next point. Now, we've heard your evidence that while walking on you way to the Ngema Section you and Thulani and Zimu decided that if it was conducive, you would commit an attack and you also heard Mr Zimu's evidence yesterday. Now tell me, do you confirm Mr Zimu's evidence that as you went into this converted garage known as the Ngema tavern, Mr Zimu went in first?

MR CHAMANE: No, I did not see him get into the garage.

CHAIRPERSON: Or at least go to the door of the garage, to the threshold?

MR CHAMANE: I saw him go into another house, not the same house where we killed people.

MR RICHARD: Yesterday he gave evidence to the effect that he went to the doorway, the threshold and formed the opinion that the people inside the room did not have firearms, are you disputing his evidence?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I dispute that evidence.

MR RICHARD: Now if you dispute that evidence, my next question is, once you came to the doorway of that garage, converted into a tavern, shebeen, did you make any attempt whatsoever to ascertain whether the people inside there were armed or not?

CHAIRPERSON: I think that question, the "you" is relating to either himself or Thulani Mlaba.

MR RICHARD: Correct.

MR CHAMANE: I only got there once the shots had been fired, so that it did not occur to me that these people could be armed. Thulani is the one who fired shots first. I think if they had been armed, they could have easily shot him so I cannot say without uncertainty, that these people were armed or not.

MR RICHARD: When Thulani Mlaba went up to the door, where were you? Were you right behind him or some way away?

MR CHAMANE: I was behind him. Not very close though.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you perhaps indicate the distance in this room about how far were you behind him, Mr Chamane?

MR CHAMANE: It could have been a distance from where I'm sitting to the head of the table.

CHAIRPERSON: About 3 and a half paces.

MR RICHARD; Three and a half paces.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you agree, Ms van der Westhuizen?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I agree, Chairperson.

MR RICHARD: Now for how long was Mr Mlaba at the doorway before he started shooting?

MR CHAMANE: It was only a short while, I therefore cannot say.

MR RICHARD: When you say a short while, the process of walking up to a doorway in a yard which was not more than a couple of metres wide in the first place, would have been a matter of seconds. To stand at the doorway and start shooting, would be another matter of seconds. I put it to you that he came up to the doorway and immediately started shooting, according to your version.

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR RICHARD: And for how long did he carry on shooting?

MR CHAMANE: Not for a while, still he fired shots and he withdrew so that I came in and continued shooting. He did not shoot for a long time.

MR RICHARD: How many shots did he fire?

MR CHAMANE: I don't know. I did not take count of it, but he did fire shots.

MR RICHARD: Many shots or a few shots?

MR CHAMANE: A few shots.

MR RICHARD: And then, when you took over, how many shots did you fire, about?

MR CHAMANE: I fired several shots, many shots, I cannot say how many.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have your AK47 on automatic mode?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, it was on the automatic mode.

MR RICHARD: Then, did you stay around for any length of time to see how many people you had killed?

MR CHAMANE: No. On completing the shooting we just left, we did not stay behind to establish as to how many people we had shot.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, when it's a convenient time, we'll adjourn for the lunch adjournment.

MR RICHARD: Any time is convenient.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it? If we adjourn now it won't be destroying some point you're busy with?

MR RICHARD: Nothing at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that you, we'll now take the lunch adjournment and we'll adjourn until quarter to two. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Richard, you may proceed please.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair.

NICHOLAS ZWILE CHAMANE: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: (cont)

&#9;Mr Chamane, to conclude, if I said to you that there are other versions that you and Mr Thulani Mlaba went through the doorway together, what would your comment be? The doorway of the tavern.

MR CHAMANE: That is correct, that is if I still remember very well.

MR RICHARD: And the first person to speak then was Thulani and he asked where the guns were, on this version.

MR CHAMANE: I cannot recall whether any one of us did speak to the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you dispute that Thulani may have said "Where are the guns"?

MR CHAMANE: No, I cannot dispute that.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. And at that stage Thulani Mlaba then told two of his friends who were in the tavern, to leave. Would you dispute that?

MR CHAMANE: I cannot dispute that.

MR RICHARD: And then at that stage, Thulani proceeded to tell people to lie down and shot the tavern owner's husband in the leg and the shooting then began. Would you dispute that?

MR CHAMANE: I cannot dispute that because I did not see him telling the people to lie down.

MR RICHARD: And finally, my last question, did you know that Mr Mlaba had previously been a visitor at the tavern?

MR CHAMANE: I did not have that information. I cannot say whether he visited the tavern previously, I really did not have that knowledge.

MR RICHARD: No further questions, thank you Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MR MAPOMA; Yes, Chairperson, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Mr Chamane, I just want to clarify a few issues with you. Firstly, where is induna Mkhondo?

MR CHAMANE: He was in Thokoza when I was arrested, I cannot say where he is at the moment.

MR MAPOMA: What are his full names?

MR CHAMANE: I just know him to be Mkhondo.

MR MAPOMA: Is he the person who recruited you into the ranks of the Self Protection Unit?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Is he the person who trained you on how to use the AK47?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And I take it that you regarded him as a person of authority to you. Am I correct?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: During the day when you were at Mr Khumalo's place, the day before you went to - on that day when you were attacked, just before you left, did you consult with him about your intended mission with the people that you do not know?

MR CHAMANE: We only informed him after the mission, but before the mission the only thing that he pointed out to us was the possibility of an attack on our side.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, what I want to clarify with you is that before you left with Mlaba and Zimu and Buthelezi, did you tell Mkhondo that you are leaving now for Ngema?

ADV BOSMAN: Well, shouldn't you perhaps ask the witness first where Mkhondo was at the time? Or am I now ...

MR MAPOMA: Yes Ma'am, I take it that Mkhondo was there because he's the person who gave him the AK47 on that day.

MR CHAMANE: Yes, he did give me the AK47 but he was not there when we left.

MR MAPOMA: And I take it that he never gave you instructions to go into that operation, am I correct?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, he did not.

MR MAPOMA: And Mr Khumalo as well did not give you those instructions. Do you confirm that?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I can confirm that.

MR MAPOMA: When the discussion were made, you said in your evidence-in-chief that discussion were made, I mean were entered into, about the attacks that were going on against the IFP members and some solution was being sought. Was there any solution that was agreed upon out of those discussions?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, our solution was that I should go and reconnoitre that area so that we could come back and later go back to shoot the people to stop the inland attack that was to happen the following day.

MR MAPOMA: If I understand you well, in your evidence-in-chief, perhaps I must remind you, you said that yours was to go and reconnoitre and do a reconnaissance and then come back so that a plan can be made.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what he said now again. He said that was what the discussions were and that it was only when they were on their way that Thulani and him decided to do otherwise.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, that is exactly what I wanted to canvass.

CHAIRPERSON: So, out of those discussions that were made by the IFP members, no decision was made that you must go and attack them on that day, do you confirm that?

MR CHAMANE: We took it upon ourselves and concluded that after reconnoitring that area we would come back at a later stage and launch the attack on that very same day.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Chamane, I want to suggest to you that by attacking there on that day, you had acted outside of the political decision of the organisation. What do you say to that?

MR CHAMANE: I would dispute that. I would say we did this within a political decision, because we went there, I in particular went there with the firm belief that these were the ANC people. The people who were attacking our people were known to us, so when I'm talking about the ANC and the IFP, I'm referring here to political parties, so all that happened, happened in the name of politics, even though we could have decided not to launch an attack on that very same day, we would eventually launch a similar attack for political reasons, because these were ANC people who were attacking and killing our people.

MR MAPOMA: Let me remind you Sir, on page 196, of the second paginated bundle, in paragraph 3 there, in your response about our topic now, you said, in fact the first paragraph tells that you were going there to look into the area and then you go on to say:

&#9;&#9;"But in my mind I had told myself that if I do get them, I will shoot them, but not because I had trusted the people who were accompanying me, whether they were going to help me or not, I was going to attack."

Now this suggests to me that even though you were told that you must go and do some reconnaissance there, you yourself as an individual told yourself that you are going to shoot them, once you get a chance. You are not going to do what you were instructed to do, that is to do the reconnaissance. You told yourself that you were going to go and kill people there, outside what you were instructed the discussions of the ... (indistinct) organisation to do. What do you say to that?

MR CHAMANE: I did not go beyond my instruction. I had concluded and taken it upon myself to use whatever opportunity that availed itself to shoot these people regardless of the fact that we had agreed initially to go and reconnoitre the area, these people who were in my company also knew very well that I would shoot at these people at the slightest available opportunity. They too would do the same. Not that I was simply going along with these people to attack, no, I am simply saying I would use whatever opportunity that was available to shoot at these people, but if there was a hindrance I would not, instead I would come back and inform the rest of the people so that we could work out a plan on how to launch such an attack.

MR MAPOMA: During those discussions which were held at Mr Khumalo's place, were there any other members of the Self Protection Unit who were present there, who participated in those discussions?

MR CHAMANE: I am saying here there were about 4 or 5 people. These are the people with whom we had a discussion.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was were any of them members of the SPU?

MR CHAMANE: I knew them to be members of the SPU.

MR MAPOMA: And those people, Thulani, Zimu and Buthelezi, you did not know them to be members of the Self Protection Unit, isn't it so? 

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Ms van der Westhuizen, do you have any re-examination?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Indeed Chairperson, there's just a few issues that I would like to clarify with Mr Chamane.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chamane, at that point in time in your life, how did you feel about ANC members? Did you hate them? Were they your enemies? Please explain to us.

MR CHAMANE: I hated them above all things for what they were doing, I loathed them.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, the conversations that took place outside Mr Khumalo's house on that evening before you left, were the people who took part in those conversations, were you excited, were you worked up? Please explain to us how you felt. 

MR CHAMANE: All the people were excited about the plan and the intention to launch an attack on the ANC members.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: I just want to ask you some questions regarding the so-called guarding of Mr Khumalo's house. Is it correct that during that period, also the period preceding the so-called night vigil, that from time to time the police and/or defence force members would be seen around Mr Khumalo's house, guarding his house. Do you know of that?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, they used to guard the household but not frequently. They would not be there for a whole day or even for a whole night.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now, should you go past Mr Khumalo's house, or go to his house for the purpose of guarding his house, and you see the police or Defence Force there, would you remain there, or would you go back to the hostel?

MR CHAMANE: I would go back to the hostel.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now you say that you were employed at the time. What kind - tell us more or less what were your working hours?

MR CHAMANE: I used to go to work at half past seven and knock off at 5 o'clock, Monday to Thursday and I used to knock off before 5 o'clock on Friday. It usually depended on what tasks I was performing. I would sometimes knock off at 1 or 2 o'clock on Fridays.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And your working week, was that from the Monday till the Friday?

MR CHAMANE: I used to work on Saturdays, but that was an overtime that we did on the request of our employer. If there was something urgent that had to be done. Yes, on a Sunday as well, we used to do that, but it all depended on the urgency of the task that had to be carried out.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now your so-called guarding of Mr Khumalo's house, would that mean that you have to go and stand there in one position in front of his house for a coupled of hours, or would that include just passing by there to see what was going on?

MR CHAMANE: Some of these people would spend the whole day at Khumalo's place depending on the availability of the police, but I would only spend a short while and proceed to the hostel, because I was employed.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now there's just one other issue out of your cross-examination that I just want to clear up and that is the arrival of Mr Thulani Mlaba, Mr Buthelezi and Mr Zimu at the house of Mr Khumalo. I just want to see whether I understood your evidence-in-chief correctly. You testified that initially you said 4 people, but later you said three people arrived and that you and Mondli went to them and inquired their identity, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: We went to them, it was myself and Mondli and I think he's the one who inquired as to their identities.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: And you testified in your evidence-in-chief that Mondli then followed them into the house, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: You didn't go into the house and you don't know what happened inside the house?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Now after they came out later from the house, that is now when Mzwakhe Khumalo also came out with them, you didn't the way I understand your evidence, you didn't see them go back a second time into the house of Mr Khumalo, you didn't see that actually happen?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I did not.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: But it could even be, because as you testified - or let me rather ask you, as you testified, you say that you didn't really concentrate on them so you would not even know if they did, is that correct?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I said that.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Mr Chamane, is there anything else that you would like to add to your evidence today?

MR CHAMANE: Yes. I wanted to direct this to the people who got injured during the violence, to their relatives, to the relatives of the deceased, I'm saying forgiveness is what I am asking. This didn't happen for no good reason, the reason was the fighting that was going on between the IFP and the ANC. My apologies. Thank you.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Adv Bosman, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Chamane, you spoke about an SPU, how is this SPU organised?

MR CHAMANE: We were told to protect the people who were being attacked, our people, because many IPF members had died, many were injured, we were told to do all we could to protect these people.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question is Mr Chamane, did it have a structure? Did it have a leader and people below the leader who could give orders? Did it work in units or cells, or what was an SPU?

MR CHAMANE: There were leaders and there was one person who was our leader. He was the one person who told us what to do.

ADV BOSMAN: ...(indistinct - mike not on) Mkhondo?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: Now did each section have it's own Self Protection Unit? Did you understand the question?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, that is correct, each section had its own Self Protection Unit.

ADV BOSMAN: The hostel where you lived, was that in the same area as Khumalo's house?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: And how many of you in that group were members of the SPU?

MR CHAMANE: There were many of us, but I cannot say how many.

ADV BOSMAN: No, I think you misunderstand me. Of your group of four that went to the tavern, how many of you were members of the SPU? 

MR CHAMANE: It was myself only, among the group that went to the tavern that is.

ADV BOSMAN: Okay. Now what was your special expertise? Why were you the only SPU member?

MR CHAMANE: Everyone among the people who were gathering there were interested in going out on the mission. I too was among those. I then suggested that I be the one who goes because I was thinking that I would be more safer than if somebody else went along and members of the group that was gathering there agreed with me that I should be the one who goes along with the other three.

ADV BOSMAN: Now, why if you were the only SPU member, was Mlaba the leader?

MR CHAMANE: It is because Mlaba knew the place.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes, I don't understand it, but I won't take that any further. I understood you to say that you did not know how to use the AK47 and that is why you were taken to Bashini's house?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, it was that they went to that house for him to train Zimu in the use of the AK47.

ADV BOSMAN: I'm sorry, I have my notes wrong there.

There's one more question. Did you know that Zimu had taken any money?

MR CHAMANE: I did not have that knowledge.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you hear him say that he had handed the money to Mr Khumalo?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I did.

ADV BOSMAN: If I remember correctly, you said you all went to the hostel after the incident?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: At what stage were you arrested? How long after the incident?

MR CHAMANE: The incident happened on the 22nd of January and I was arrested on the 19th of February.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you see Khumalo or Zimu again after that, between the 19th and the 22nd?

MR CHAMANE: I did not see Mr Zimu after that. The one person that I saw was Mr Khumalo. I saw him the following day at the funeral. I only saw Zimu again on the day of our arrest.

ADV BOSMAN: When you saw Mr Khumalo again, was there any reference to the incident?

MR CHAMANE: No, we did not.

ADV BOSMAN: And no reference to money?

MR CHAMANE: Not at all.

ADV BOSMAN: Did you ever hear whether any arms were bought after the incident for your SPU?

MR CHAMANE: No, I never heard of that.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

ADV SIGODI: Yes, thank you Chairperson. Do you know who were the leaders of the ANC in the Thokoza area?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I knew one of them.

ADV SIGODI: And who was that?

MR CHAMANE: Sam Nduli.

ADV SIGODI: And who else did you know? You didn't know any other ANC leaders, because Sam Nduli was a civic leader. Did you know any other ANC people?

MR CHAMANE: No.

ADV SIGODI: Of the people who were attacked by the ANC did you personally have any close people to you who were attacked by the ANC?

MR CHAMANE: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: And who were those people?

MR CHAMANE: The Msomi household was once attacked.

ADV SIGODI: And how close were they to you? What was your relationship with the Msomi family?

MR CHAMANE: Msomi was Chairperson of Inkatha.

ADV SIGODI: Did anybody die, somebody that was known to you personally?

MR CHAMANE: No, I did not hear of any such person dying.

ADV SIGODI; No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Chamane, do you know where Themba Zimu got his AK47, the one that he took with him when you went to Ngema tavern?

MR CHAMANE: I do not have that knowledge. I did not ask him,

CHAIRPERSON: Did it strike you as being strange that somebody should be walking around with an AK47, who doesn't know how to use it?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, it struck me strange that he was carrying a firearm not knowing how to use it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask him about it? Did you speak to him about it? Did you say "What have you got this gun for if you don't know how to shoot it?"

MR CHAMANE: I did not ask him, just that I asked Thulani, on learning that this person did not know how to used the firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: What did Thulani tell you?

MR CHAMANE: He said I should go along so that I can see the person. He did not answer me.

CHAIRPERSON: Because Mr Zimu yesterday testified that he only received possession of that firearm shortly before he went to Ngema and that he received it from a person who's been to the hostel and came back carrying 3 AK47s , from next door at least, not from the hostel, the person went to the house next door and came out with 3 AK47s. The three that were used in the incident. That would include the one you had, the one that he had and the one that Buthelezi had. What do you say to that? That was what Mr Zimu said yesterday, you must have heard him.

MR CHAMANE: I dispute that. When I came to Khumalo's place I was carrying my own firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you receive any remuneration for the work that you did that night, the going to Ngema's, killing those people, injuring others?

MR CHAMANE: No, we did not carry out the mission for any remunerations.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry was this incident the only incident that you were involved in where you attacked as an IFP person, where you attacked ANC people?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct. That's the only incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel?

MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chairperson I have one question that I neglected to ask. It doesn't bear much on the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SWANEPOEL: Mr Chamane, did you meet Mr Zimu after you were jailed for your offences for which you're applying for amnesty?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I met him in one of the cars on the day of my arrest, one of the police vehicles.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, but after you were jailed, after you were sentenced to jail, did you meet him again in jail?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I did.

MR SWANEPOEL: And did you and him have a quarrel in jail?

MR CHAMANE: That is correct, we differed in prison quite a lot. That was even long before we were sentenced and it continued after sentencing.

MR SWANEPOEL: And what was your difference of opinion about?

MR CHAMANE: Our differences were as a result of the fact that we were sharing one cell and there were ANC members locked in the same cell with us and Themba would point me out as the killer and say he was not the killer and he would paint a negative picture of me so that he exonerates himself from the guilt and the wrong-doing. There were other IFP members that he pointed out within the same cell at the Boksburg prison.

MR SWANEPOEL: And in jail, did Mr Zimu tell you which political party he now supports?

MR CHAMANE: He only told me after we were sentenced as to which political party he now supported, but he did not indicate that to me during the trial period.

MR SWANEPOEL: Yes, and which party is that?

MR CHAMANE: He said he now belongs to the UDM.

MR SWANEPOEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SWANEPOEL

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry before we finish, I'd just like to put another question which I forgot to put. Mr Chamane were you convicted of robbery?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I was convicted of robbery but the charge was later withdrawn. They sent me a letter whilst I was in Pretoria.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you convicted? Were you sentenced for robbery? 

MR CHAMANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now what robbery would that be?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, I was sentenced for robbery.

CHAIRPERSON: But what robbery?

MR CHAMANE: I did not rob anyone, it was said that Themba or one of us took some money on the day of our attack and all of us were sentenced for that offence.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Panel?

MR MAPOMA: Just one, Mr Chair. Thank you.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Sir, 

talking about jail now, whilst you were in jail, because you said you did this on behalf of your organisation, did any of the leadership of the IFP, SPU, Youth League come to visit you whilst you were in prison? Take it the other way. Did any leadership of the SPU which you were part of, IFP Youth League, or IFP, did anybody in the leadership come to see you whilst you were in prison?

MR CHAMANE: I would say that IFP people do frequently or regularly visit IFP members in prison regardless of whether they are SPU members or not.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, let me direct the question. Let's forget about other people in jail, I'm talking about you in particular. Did anybody in the IFP leadership, SPU, IFP Youth League come to see you directly in prison and spoke to you? 

MR CHAMANE: That is correct. One person who visited me regularly was Mr and Mrs Mzizi. They came to visit all IFP members, not myself alone and they also, or should I say other people who were not necessarily leaders, came to pay us a visit.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, I think whilst you're talking there was a crossed - I heard you say Mrs Mzizi or Mr Mzizi, which one was it? Who visited you?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that, well my note says that Mr and Mrs came but they didn't come to visit him in particular, they came to visit all IFP inmates.

MR MAPOMA: Alright. Did they speak to you in particular on the day that they came to visit other inmates? Did they speak to you in particular?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, they did talk to me.

MR MAPOMA: Was there anything in relation to this application discussed with you, that you are sitting here, what you are hearing today?

MR CHAMANE: Yes, they informed me that I should submit an application to the TRC pertaining to what I did and I had already submitted my application at the time they told me and Mr Mzizi indicated that each one of us should submit our applications, but I had already done so.

MR MAPOMA: Okay. Can you remember what year was it when Mr or Mrs Mzizi, either of them, came to see and speak to you directly about, can you remember what year was it?

MR CHAMANE: I cannot recall the year. It could have been 1996 or 97, They did not come, the two of them, at once. They came individually at separate times.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you then Mr Chamane, that concludes your evidence, you may stand down now.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Padi.

MR PADI: Thank you Mr Chair. I have consulted with Mr Mlaba and he says that he's in the position to take the stand and present his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I think you'll have to just swop chairs again. If I may at this stage indicate the point raised by Mr Richard yesterday, we've considered it and we do not think it would be appropriate for us to refuse the application of the two Khumalos but we consider that their application has been withdrawn, not merely from the roll, but the application has been withdrawn, not for re-instatement.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly as far as we are concerned, it's been withdrawn, it's a concluded matter, file to be closed. 

APPLICATION OF M S KHUMALO AND M S KHUMALO WITHDRAWN

 

 

 

NAME:&#9;THULANI TERRENCE MLABA

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM4400/96

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRMAN: Mr Mlaba, we have been informed that you are not feeling well, but that you are in a position to testify. If you are feeling tired or uncomfortable etc., please just let Mr Padi know and we can always take a short break so that you can recover a bit.

THULANI TERRENCE MLABA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Padi.

EXAMINATION BY MR PADI: Mr Mlaba can you give the Committee your background, where you came from, where you were born, briefly please?

MR MLABA: My name is Thulani Mlaba. I was born in Natalspruit, that is Katlehong, Twala Section.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you born, Mr Mlaba, what year?

MR MLABA: In 1972 on the 6th of April.

MR PADI: Mr Mlaba, can you see the application form that is in front of you here?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 68.

MR MLABA: Yes.

MR PADI: Did you fill it in yourself?

MR MLABA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, before you proceed, I'd just like to clear up one point, before this, is your surname Mlaba or is it Mlaba Tsotetsi?

MR MLABA: Thulani Tsotetsi.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't quite understand because the surname Mlaba/Tsotetsi and then it's got first names in full, Thulani Terrence.

MR PADI: Can you explain to the committee where the surname of Mlaba came from?

MR MLABA: The surname Mlaba came about when I was arrested. I was arrested with Khumalo and Zwele and it was realised that Mafulela wanted to save me from this case, to take me out of this case, therefore he told me to use his surname so that everything could go easier on my side.

CHAIRPERSON: So your real name, in fact your name is not Mlaba, but Tsotetsi?

MR MLABA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: So shall we refer to you as Mr Tsotetsi?

MR MLABA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So I take it that wherever the name Thulani Mlaba has been referred to, we know it means Thulani Tsotetsi.

MR PADI: Mr Tsotetsi, who helped you in the filling in of this application?

MR TSOTETSI: The people who were filling the forms, the first one I was helped by one of the inmates Mike Bellingan.

MR PADI: Is it the one that is in front of you?

MR TSOTETSI: I cannot remember, but the other one was assisted by one legal representative. I cannot remember which one is it, the one that was filled by this fellow inmate.

MR PADI: So do I understand you to mean that you are not sure exactly who filled in this particular application form?

MR TSOTETSI: I cannot remember whether it's the one that was filled in by the fellow inmate or the lawyer.

MR PADI: What was the position when people were filling in these forms for you? Was it a case of you relating the whole story to them and having them fill in the application for you, or they would ask you particular questions and you would give answer which they would fill into the form?

MR TSOTETSI: They would ask me questions and I would respond.

MR PADI: Thank you. Mr Mlaba, in your affidavit which is on page 75 of that first bundle, I see that you are applying for amnesty for several incidents which include among others the incident of the killing and injuring of people at the Ngema tavern, is that so?

MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: The other incident relates to the killing of the Self Defence Unit member, known by the name of Norman Sithole, is that so?

MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: And you are also applying for amnesty for the killing of an ANC supporter by the name of Happy Thokoza, is that so?

MR TSOTETSI: It is not Happy Thokoza, I only know him as Happy, I do not know the surname. I have forgotten the surname.

MR PADI: I was actually looking at the typed transcript of the application form. You again indicate that you are applying for amnesty for the shooting and killing of people in the funeral procession of Mr Sam Nduli between Umshazaville, Madala hostel, is that correct?

MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: You also indicate that you were involved in the assassination of passengers on the taxis and you are applying for amnesty for those events as well, is that correct?

MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: You further indicate that you are applying for amnesty for the shooting and killing of people who refused to join the IFP and those people who were evicted from their homes as a result of their refusal, is that correct?

MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: You are further applying for amnesty for the kidnapping and killing of Sam Mashiane, is that correct as well?

MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: You are also applying for amnesty for conspiring with people who killed Mr Sam Nduli, is that correct?

MR TSOTETSI: Will you please repeat the question?

MR PADI: You are also applying for amnesty for your role in conspiring with people who killed Mr Sam Nduli, is that correct?

MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: You are further applying for amnesty for conspiring with people who killed the business persons known as Sesdodo and Mr Ndaba on the day of the Ngema Massacre, is that also correct?

MR TSOTETSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR PADI: He's getting a bit exhausted, Mr Chair. I wonder if we can take a short moment?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll just take a short adjournment, five minutes or so and Mr Padi if you could just let us know as soon as the witness feels that he is in a position to resume? If it's going to be longer than 5 or 10 minutes, if you can come and inform us what the situation is. Thank you. We'll take a short adjournment now.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. It's quite apparent to us the Mr Tsotetsi is not a well man, in fact it would appear that he is very ill. We during this adjournment have had discussions with the legal representative and members of the Correctional Services. We haven't got any medical report, we don't know exactly what Mr Tsotetsi's ailment is. We have been informed through Mr Padi, Mr Tsotetsi's legal representative that he is not in a condition to carry on today with his testimony, he is feeling very weak. Mr Padi also informed us that during his consultations with Mr Tsotetsi they also didn't go easily, he loses his concentration quite quickly and is very tired and listless. We have not been able to get hold of a medical practitioner who has treated Mr Tsotetsi in the past. 

&#9;In the circumstances, it would seem that the best course to follow now would be just to adjourn until tomorrow at half past nine, see what Mr Tsotetsi's condition is then and hopefully in the interim period, if we could get some sort of, if at all possible, some sort of medical report or report as to what his ailment is. 

&#9;If it's - if we're in a situation tomorrow where we cannot continue because of Mr Tsotetsi's illness, we'll have to then consider what next step to take. It might be to postpone to the next day or to postpone it to a date to be arranged in order for him to get further treatment. We as a Panel are reluctant for him to be forced, and I use that word in inverted commas, "forced" to give evidence when he's in this condition because he might not be able to concentrate properly and the evidence that we might get at the end of the day, if he's not well, might not be reliable because of his physical condition and we don't want to get into that sort of situation. 

&#9;So I apologise that we have to adjourn now, but you all know it's for reasons that are unavoidable. So at this stage then we'll adjourn until tomorrow morning at the same venue at half past nine in the morning and see if we are in a position to proceed or not. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

 

