&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;&#9;28.10.96&#9;&#9;ALEXANDRA

NAME:&#9;&#9;AMBROSE SHEZI

MS SOOKA: We would like to welcome you today to the proceedings of the Truth Commission and we are very grateful for coming here. 

AMBROSE SHEZI (s.s.)

MS SOOKA: Mr Shezi, is that a relative who is accompanying you?

MR SHEZI: It is my wife.

MS SOOKA: We would like to welcome her. We have asked Mr Hugh Lewin to assist you with the telling of your story.

MR LEWIN: Mr Shezi I would like to welcome you again and to say how grateful we are that you have come forward. You have a story to tell about a very famous name in our history, going to December 1972. Would you like please in your own time to tell us that story. Thank you.

MR SHEZI: It was during 1972, I got a message that my son is in hospital, at Natalspruit Hospital. It was in the evening. I tried to look for a car and I couldn't find it and then early in the morning at about seven o'clock I happened to be at Natalspruit. When I arrived at seven o'clock they opened for me and I entered the hospital. As I was walking around the ward looking around my son yelled at me and he said Dad I am here. I went to him and I asked him why are you here. He said I was pushed before a moving train by a white man at Springs. I was standing on the platform and he pushed me and I fall and I ask as you are

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sitting there, lying there what has happened and he told me they have operated on me because my intestine intermingled. And I asked him how are you feeling at the moment. He said I am feeling well but it is very painful. And I asked him why did this white man push you before a moving train. And he said I found this man pouring water over some women and I asked him why are you pouring water over these women and when are they going to get dry when you do that. And he said he was asking the white man. And the white man insulted him and then my child also insulted the white man. He said he insulted him in his language therefore he heard what he said. After insulting him I left the place and I went to Durban. When I came back from Durban while standing on the platform I didn't see this man and he pushed me over the railway line. Why did he hate you so much, what did you exactly say to him. And he said to me I didn't insult him in such a way that he will throw me in front of the train. However, when I get well I will have to come back and ask him as to why he threw me over the lines. And I asked him whether he could eat. He said he couldn't eat. What I would like you to do is that you go and tell them at home that I am well although it is painful. And then I left the hospital and went back home. When I came back the next morning it was the same time, at seven o'clock in the morning and I found that they told me that he has just died and they have taken him to the mortuary and I asked them if they could allow me to see them. They said that is okay, they will take me to where he is. When I arrived at the place I was so afraid as they pulling out the bodies who have already died and I told them no they mustn't show me, I had better go home to tell them. Then I came back the

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next day to identify him. And that is how we finish.

While I was at home I heard that they want to see me at Germiston and I asked who wanted to see me in Germiston and they said that is the railway services people. When I arrived at their offices the white man in the office told me that do you know your son, they asked me whether I know my son very well and he asked me what was his name and I told him the name. And he asked whether he was mentally ill and I told him no my son wasn't mentally ill. And he said to me that one white man came to me to report that your child has insulted him and he reported the case. And I asked him did he insult him, he said yes and I said to him my son does not insult people and he said to me he did insult this white man. And I said to him I don't know much about that but I don't think that is a case. This white man said since you are saying your son is not mentally ill now that you are facing this funeral expenses we will call you back to talk about it, then you can go back home now we will call you later. And then I went back to try and bury my son. As I was preparing to bury my son, trying to find some funds, we managed to bury the child. After the funeral when we got back to the grave we found that the police had overturned the tombstone, they have shot it and it was just lying down scattered and when we asked we were told that this was done by the police. And we asked why are they killing him for the second time because they have already killed him. I was asking them because I didn't know that he was involved in politics and they said to me that he is fighting against the government and I asked him how is he fighting against the government. They said he is a politician and I said to them since I have incurred so many expenses why didn't he come to

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me and say I have an altercation with your son because if he killed him by accident he should have come to me and said since I killed him by accident I would like to help you with funeral expenses. Maybe like he will come and explain to me exactly as to what happened, saying that he didn't intend to kill my child and then they said to me I must forget about that and I just forget about it. What worries me much is that they didn't even call me to court. They didn't even allow me to identify who killed my son. This is the person I wanted to see because if he was cross with me or with my child he should have come before and explained as to what has happened, what wrong has my son done. Even the railway they should have come and bring my child before a hearing or take him to court where he will be sentenced. Because at the present moment I don't have my child and I didn't have a case on the matter and this white man who called me at Germiston he didn't call me again and I don't know exactly what had happened. I would like to know exactly as to what had happened to my son. 

MR LEWIN: Mr Shezi thank you very much. If I could just ask a couple more questions. How old was Mtule at the time of his death?

MR SHEZI: You mean Mtule. He was born on October 1947. I don't remember well the day. This Mtule was born in 1947 on the month of October.

MR SHEZI: So he was 24 at the time of his death. Could you tell us a little bit about his activities, because he was very high in the BPC, was he not, Black Peoples Convention.

MR SHEZI: What I know about him is that he didn't like free things, things which come at no expense. He used to believe that one has to work for his things. While he was still

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growing up I used to have a shop at Seventh Avenue. When the white people come and take cigarettes he used to ask them why are you taking the cigarettes from my dad's shop because my father paid for these cigarettes and you are taking them for free. And this was a time when he was still young and he wasn't yet at school. And I used to say to him don't fight with them because at some times we will be trouble and they might help us. And he said when you are in trouble they will have to take you to court and sentence you for whatever time that you deserve. He was not a troublesome person but he wanted all things to be equal. What I remember well one day one white man came. This white man was a friend and he asked him where is your dad and he said to him your eye is there and the white man said I want to know where your father is. And I said to him when a white man asks you where I am don't show him the eye, tell him exactly where I am. That was the time while he was still young. And this white friend of mine said this young man needs some respect and when he asked him a second time where is your dad he said my dad is in the house and he is washing. I don't know exactly where this politics has come from because I am not educated and I don't know what politics is all about. Even his books. You won't believe as I am talking before my wife that I had a dream saying that he left his books in the house behind our home. I wake up at night and I intended to go and find his books at the other house and it happened that I found the books and I took those books and gave to the people whom he said I shall give to. This is the truth that I know. 

MR LEWIN: ... able to establish who it was who pushed him?

MR SHEZI: He saw this white man standing behind him and he

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pushed him and he fell over the hole. As he was lying down there his intestines got intertwined. What worries me the most is that when he arrived at the hospital, when I went to the hospital I realised that I was still fine and I was going to survive but unfortunately I arrived six in the morning and they didn't operate on me until ten in the evening. He just sat there and all the people just looked at him, they didn't help him. The doctor that I happened to talk to, I was introduced to him by my son, and the doctor said to him you always say all these men coming around there are your father and I could see that this doctor was against this young man and I could see there was something wrong because all the white men were against him. 

MR LEWIN: When you saw him in hospital at the time he seemed to be fairly ...

MR SHEZI: I saw him once early in the morning, it was seven o'clock. They opened the gates for me and I saw him at seven in the morning. I would like to tell you everything as to what he told me. When I came back the next morning it was seven in the morning. I discovered that he had just passed away at about seven o'clock that morning and they have just taken him to the mortuary. 

MR LEWIN: Did they ever say why he died, what he had died of?

MR SHEZI: Yes, they told me, they said he was a politician. This means that he didn't wanted this differences between whites and blacks and he wanted all people to be equal.

MR LEWIN: But in terms of the hospital, did the hospital ever say what had killed him? Or was there ever an inquest a which it was established why he died?

MR SHEZI: I tried to investigate as to how he died in the

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hospital. What they told me that he had an altercation with a white man before he went to a meeting in Durban and this white man waited for him on the platform, waiting to kill him. The train ran over him and he got his intestines cut or intermingled.

MR LEWIN: You don't know whether there was a post mortem done on his body.

MR SHEZI: There was a post mortem but I didn't bring the papers here. As I explained there was a post mortem and I didn't bring the book now because the Germiston people gave me a letter saying as to what caused the death.

MR LEWIN: Thank you. Can I just establish did the Germiston people ever mention the name of the person responsible for pushing him or did you find out the name of that person? 

MR SHEZI: The name of the person who pushed him was Van Zyl and I got this information from the Germiston office. The person who witnessed this incident was the person who came with him back home in Tembisa. This person came once that night and he never came back and up to today I don't know him, I have never seen him and I just know that this man has been killed by a police. These are rumours. I don't know exactly as to what had happened to him. This is the man who told us that Mtuli Masani is at the Natalspruit Hospital.

MR LEWIN: Thank you very much. We would like to thank you.

MR SHEZI: I also thank you. 

QUESTION: We thank you, Mr Shezi. Before I ask you just one question I would like to ask if ever you can remember anything about Mtuli's funeral. If you remember well about the speeches that were made, about people coming from universities.

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MR SHEZI: Yes, I would say that people from different universities came and they said he was their president and these are the people who buried him. I can't continue.

MS SOOKA: ... the witness to come back if he is able to. He is quite disturbed about telling the story about what happened to his son. 

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