&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 08.08.96 &#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;NAME: MARTHA HONOKO

CASE: 823 - SEBOKENG

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MARTHA HONOKO: (sworn states)

PROF MEIRING: Mrs Honoko, welcome from my side too. Again we are back to that awful night of the 18th of April 1993. It was the night of the vigil for Chris Hani and many horrible things happened that night. You are going to tell us the story of your brother Molebatsi and his girlfriend Dolly. Just before you start, do you know the surname of Dolly so that we can add that to the record?

MRS HONOKO: Yes I do know her surname.

PROF MEIRING: What is the surname?

MRS HONOKO: It was Magode.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much. Please tell us what happened that night to your brother Molebatsi and to Dolly his girlfriend?

MRS HONOKO: On the 18th in the morning when I was at home, I heard on the news that there was a white Jetta which was driving around shooting people in Sebokeng. It was driven by a male and a female. A man and a female died. I woke up and went to the cemetery. Just as I went into the cemetery I came across my uncle and I could see that my uncle's face was spelling tragedy. I told my uncle that I had heard in the news that some people had died and I asked him as to which families were affected.My uncle avoided looking me in the eye, he said to me it's Molebatsi. Then he told me that he had come to fetch me so that I could go with him to Zone 12 where Molebatsi was staying and we went together with my 

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uncle on foot because there was no transport and we went to Zone 12. When we got to Zone 12, that is now the house, I saw my aunt as well as another lady and our neighbours. As I was getting into the house they helped me and they led me into the bedroom. They had already put the mattress down. I sat on the mattress and I kept on asking them as to what was happening. I asked them whether they were sure that Molebatsi had died. My aunt told me that they were sure because they had gone to where Molebatsi had died and when they got there he was not there any more because the Hippo had taken him. But what we got there was that there was blood, there was a pool of blood, that's why they say they were sure that he had been killed. I said to them they mustn't start mourning because I hadn't yet believed that he had died. I told them that I would go around trying to search for him until such time that I get him. 

&#9;Then on a Tuesday morning I went to Sebokeng police station, that is where I got Molebatsi. He had been shot just above the eye as well as on the chest. I came back and when I got home they had already started mourning and they had smeared the windows. I told them that I did not understand how all this happened, I wished to talk to an eye witness. People kept on coming as well as Dolly's family and Dolly's neighbours. They also came with the same message, that there is a certain neighbour who came from Dolly's place and he knocked at Dolly's place, he spoke to Dolly's father and asked where Dolly was and asked him whether they were all at home. Dolly's father replied that there was only one missing. They both went outside and Dolly's father discovered the two corpses. Dolly's father passed the message to my uncle's place and my uncle sent the message 

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that I should notified of what had happened. That is where I will end. 

PROF MEIRING: Thank you so much Mrs Honoko for telling the story. May I ask a few questions just to clarify the matter. The first thing I would like to ask of you is whether Dolly and Molebatsi her boyfriend, your brother, were they politically active? Did people know that they belonged to a certain party?

MRS HONOKO: What I know, I know only about Molebatsi who was a member of the PAC.

PROF MEIRING: Do you think that could be the reason why they were shot? Were they pointed out being members of the PAC?

MRS HONOKO: I do not think so.

PROF MEIRING: Were they just innocent people at that stage at the wrong stage at the wrong place?

MRS HONOKO: I think so.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you. There's another question I want to ask you. You say that there was a white Jetta, a model unknown and the registration number also unknown. We've heard today of another white car, a white Volkswagen Golf, it's not the same car, is that another car that was in the neighbourhood that night driving around?

MRS HONOKO: I don't know how I can explain this, I heard it over the news.

PROF MEIRING: So you have no special knowledge about that?

MRS HONOKO: I have absolutely no knowledge.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you for that. I just want to know about Molebatsi and Dolly are there any children that needs to be taken care of?

MRS HONOKO: They don't have any children.

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PROF MEIRING: Thank you those were the questions I wanted to ask, I'll pass it on now to the others.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Seroke? 

MS SEROKE: Martha in your statement you said it was rumoured that Dolly and Molebatsi were told to sleep on their stomachs. Who gave you this report?

MRS HONOKO: I did not say that they were told to sleep on their stomachs. I don't understand your question.

MS SEROKE: In your statement you pointed out that this Jetta came, it had no number plates, and people came out of this car and they had guns and they told Molebatsi and Dolly to lie on their tummies. 

MRS HONOKO: The message that I got from the people who had gone to pay condolences at Dolly's place, Dolly's father explained that the manner in which the people were shot. It seems as if they were shot lying down.

MS SEROKE: I am through thank you.

MR MONTATA: How old was your brother when he died? 

MRS HONOKO: I don't understand you.

MR MONTATA: Was he old or -?

MRS HONOKO: No he was very young he was 22 years old.

MR MONTATA: I'm asking this question because you said he was a member of the PAC. And when we look at these deaths, it is apparent that it was ANC members. Do you think this was a mistake, membership?

MRS HONOKO: I do not think so. I thought it was his time and he had to go in that manner.

MR MONTATA: Maybe, do you think that he was going to where they were going to watch Chris Hani's night vigil?

MRS HONOKO: No I don't think it has anything to do with that.

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MR MONTATA: Now just tell us, What do you think of the death of your brother? 

MRS HONOKO: This is an incident that took place on that same day where many people died. I think that is the way God called him. I don't know how to explain this so that you can understand it Sir.

MR MONTATA: In short I wanted to say, seeing that they killed your brother in that way, and we have heard that they killed people at Palm Springs and others at Section 7 in Sebokeng, now this is a message that the killing was all over the Vaal area.

MRS HONOKO: Yes. 

MR MONTATA: That is why I say I think your brother was killed, maybe the murderers thought he was a member of the ANC. 

MRS HONOKO: I don't have it that way Sir. 

MR MONTATA: At the funeral of Dolly and that of your brother, were there members of the PAC present or anybody from any organisation? 

MRS HONOKO: Yes the ANC members were present at Molebatsi's funeral. I do not know about Dolly's funeral because I wasn't there.

MR MONTATA: In other words you are telling us that the people were united by such killings whether you belonged to the PAC or the ANC?

MRS HONOKO: Yes that's correct.

MR MONTATA: I thank you.

DR RANDERA: If I can just ask you one question. You say your brother was 21 years old. Tell us something more about Molebatsi. Was he working at the time? Did he have any children?

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MRS HONOKO: Yes he was working at Lombards. He was not married. He didn't have a child. He had no mother.

DR RANDERA: Thank you for coming today and your uncle too for coming and coming to share this story with us. We have heard what you've said. You were not there at the time when your brother was shot and that makes it even more difficult because often when we haven't said goodbye properly to anybody, it preys upon our minds and we all feel much more guilty that way. We hope that by your coming here today it has allowed you that opportunity to talk about your brother and that the Truth Commission will be able to help you in some way. Thank you for coming. Ms Seroke?

MRS SEROKE: Our next witness is Akina Magoda. Akina Magoda who's going to testify on behalf of Dolly Magoda her daughter who was also shot under similar circumstances.

AKINA MAGODA:&#9;(sworn states)

MR MONTATA: Your story happened in April 1993. Can you now tell us what happened to your daughter? Tell us what happened on that fateful day.

MRS MAGODA: In 1993 when they had gone to watch Chris Hani's night vigil, in 1993 when it was Chris Hani's night vigil, we were all watching the television and we were watching television until late at night. As we were still watching the television my husband said he wanted to go and sleep early because he was going to work the following morning and I was left watching TV. As I was still watching TV my daughter was busy studying in the bedroom. My eldest daughter had gone out. The little children were left and they were sleeping in their respective bedrooms. I was remaining all by myself now in the dining room still watching the television. Just as Hani was being brought 

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into the stadium, I heard a loud bang, I heard the guns twice, I heard it for the third time and at that time I ran and switched the TV off. I ran into my daughter's bedroom and I told her to switch off the lights because I could hear gun shots from outside. I heard it a fourth time and could hear that it was getting closer and closer to the house but there was nothing that I could do. I switched off the lights and the house was dark. We ran into the bedroom and we decided to sleep. I did not close my gate because I was awaiting my daughter who had gone out. Even the kitchen was not locked because I was waiting for my daughter to come back. We got into the blanket, still in that state of confusion. We stayed for quite some time in the blanket until such time that I was feeling sleepy.

&#9;In the middle of the night as we were sleeping I heard somebody knocking at the door and when this person was knocking I woke my husband up and told him to go and check who was at the door. When he got to the door he saw Mr Machobani. Mr Machobani said, "I just want to get into the house". This was related to me by my husband. They went outside with Mr Machobani together. Mr Machobani pointed out that he didn't want to talk to my husband in the house because there was some tragedy outside. He did not want to scare the children. They went out together with Mr Machobani. When they got outside they saw Dolly and Molebatsi who were made to lie down on their stomachs and they were being shot whilst they were lying down and the place was full of blood. It was a pool of blood surrounding them. Mr Machobani made attempts to wake the neighbourhood, to make them aware that tragedy has struck. That was my husband and Mr Machobani. They went to tell the police that HRV/823&#9;people/...

 

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people had been shot. The police came and I just saw a very bright light at the time. I saw it through the window and my neighbour was already there. Then they told the children not to make any noise, they should keep quiet but in such a situation you cannot tell people to keep quiet. We sat with the other women, there came a big pick-up. The pick-up had a very big and bright light. Until such time that they had finished taking the corpses then they went away with the corpses. Towards dawn the corpses were already collected.

They told me that at LTA there was something bad happening.

MR MONTATA:&#9;Have you finished or do you still want to continue?

MRS HONOKO: Thereafter many people came into the house. They were coming in and getting out and at this stage the comrades came into my house and they said to my husband they wanted their children to be buried on the very same day and the ceremony should be held at the stadium at Zone 7. My husband agreed with them, my child was buried on the 28th on a Wednesday at the Stadium in Zone 7. Now my child had a little kid, Dolly wanted to go back to school after giving birth to the child. She was also doing parttime over the weekends. She was working at certain shops in order to maintain her child. She worked up to the moment she died.

&#9;Just May month went by and she's father started falling sick. He was sick and he couldn't do anything. We took him to different hospitals now. On the sixth month her father passed away, he was Piet Magoda. I'm now left with Piet Magoda's children and my grandson. I wasn't working. My husband had been working for me.

&#9;I went to the Commissioner's office to apply for a grant for Dolly's child. They said, "You come so early, a 

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person just died yesterday and then you come today to get the money". Then they didn't want to listen to my requests. I'm requesting money for the child because I know that I'm not at the right age to get pension. I can still survive, but this child. I'm wondering as to what the Truth Commission is saying, because this child is going to grow up and will have to attend school. Even if the child has uncles and aunts, they won't rear the child up to a certain stage because they have their own children. I am sick. I'm a sick woman, I cannot do anything.

MR MONTATA: Mrs Magoda, I thank you. Your daughter is she the girlfriend to Mrs Honoko's son who'd just given her evidence?

MRS MAGODA: Yes.

MR MONTATA: Now as parents, did you know that the children were in love?

MRS MAGODA: Yes we knew we they were not staying far from our home. 

MR MONTATA: Was Dolly involved in any political organisation?

MRS MAGODA: No she wasn't involved, I personally was a member of the ANC, Dolly was not involved. No she wasn't involved at all.

MR MONTATA: Mr Machobani who is sitting next to you, is it the person who saw this?

MRS MAGODA: No the person who came to wake us up, he is the person who got the children lying on their stomachs, shot dead, yes. I couldn't see them at all, I was so confused. At that stage I was sick. I left my house and I went straight to the doctor. The person who saw them, who told us the whole story was my husband. 

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MR MONTATA: The husband who passed away?

MRS MAGODA: Yes. 

MR MONTATA: The husband who passed away after five months. MRS MAGODA: Yes he passed away on the 18th of October and the daughter was dead on the 18th of April.

MR MONTATA: What caused his death? Was he sick or was it because of the pain he suffered at the loss of his daughter? MRS MAGODA: Among the children, he loved his children a lot but among them all, Dolly was the favourite. He had a daughter and a girl but Dolly was the top one.

MR MONTATA: I thank you, I will now take everything back to our Chairperson. 

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Seroke, thank you.

MRS SEROKE: As I was listening, you said something about LTA and you did not complete your talk. Tell us what happened. 

MRS MAGODA: I was told after a few days that what happened at my house took place in LTA as well . Now it is not far from LTA.

MRS SEROKE: Did they say how many people died in LTA?

MRS MAGODA: No they hadn't told us the total number but towards the end of the week they said 19.

MRS SEROKE: Was there a child at the home at the time who was studying in the house?

MRS MAGODA: Yes.

MRS SEROKE: Was the child not affected by all this.

MRS MAGODA: What are you referring to Sir?

MRS SEROKE: When the killings took place the child was studying. Was the child not affected.

MRS MAGODA: No the child was affected because that is his sister who was involved in this.

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MRS SEROKE: Was your husband working?

MRS MAGODA: He was working.

MRS SEROKE: Was he not sick at any stage?

MRS MAGODA: No the only illness that I know of was the injury that he sustained because he was attacked. He was only attacked, that was the only thing I know but I never came to know the cause of his death actually.

MRS SEROKE: I thank you.

PROF. MEIRING: Just two short questions I would like to ask Mrs Magoda. The first, how old is Dolly's child, your grandchild?

MRS MAGODA: The child is now nine years.

PROF. MEIRING: Then the second question? Was there any inquest after the shooting? Was there any investigation by the police or anybody else?

MRS MAGODA: My husband was handling the whole matter and he said to me he had to go to report this to the police, but because of the sudden illness, he couldn't. But the policeman came to my home after the death of my husband and they asked as to his whereabouts and my son told them, "No my father had died". That was the last day we saw them until today.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Professor Meiring. Mrs Magoda, I do not have any questions. We have listened carefully to what you have said and the loss that you suffered on that night with your daughter dying and probably a son in law because you said you knew that they were in a relationship. But not only that, it sounds from what you were saying that Dolly was your husband's favourite and we know, we hear all the time where parents, a parent or a loved one passes away soon after something like this has happened, as I'm sure your HRV/823&#9;husband/...

 

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husband must have been. We've also heard your request for help with Dolly's child and you will hear from the Commission once the policy is developed and once we've made a finding. Thank you very much for coming.

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