&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;07 APRIL 1997 

NAME: &#9;MANDLAKAYISE "MATU" MPHITHI

CASE:&#9;&#9;EC0495/96&#9;-&#9;GRAHAMSTOWN

DAY 1

____________________________________________________________

REV XUNDU: Mandlakayise Matu Mphithi, please stand up.

MR MPHITHI: (Duly sworn in, states)

REV XUNDU: Mr Chairman, he has been properly sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: We welcome you, Mandlakayise. We will ask Tiny Maya to lead you with questions on behalf of the Commission. 

MS MAYA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mandlakayise, according to your statement in front of us, you are going to tell us about three incidents that happened to you. Two of them happened on the 8th of May 1985 where you were tortured by the police in Bedford. You were also chopped off two fingers. The third one is about the State Emergency in 1986. Please tell us briefly what happened to you.

MR MPHITHI: In 1985, in 1985 in Bedford I was on my way to shop, to the coloured area. At the time there was a consumer boycott. I went from the township to the coloured area. When I arrived there in the shop, one person came out of the shop. He came to me, he said that, Comrade, I just want to know one thing, let us go outside. We went out. I did not ask what was it, I just went out with him. I told him to hurry up, because I wanted to buy something in the shop. When he arrived outside he said that you are one of the people who destroyed my food. It was dark at the shop, when I went out I saw him taking out a knife. I tried to 

defend myself, I thought it was abating, because it was dark. He cut, he chopped me and he ran away. After that I went back, I ran back to the shop. When I looked at my hand, my fingers were chopped. The owner of the shop tried to help me, he tried to block the blood. He phoned the ambulance, he phoned again the ambulance for the second time. 

&#9;When the ambulance arrived they told me, they told him that they cannot take me to hospital. They told the owner of the shop to phone the police. The owner of the shop told them that he will pay them R10,00 to take me to hospital. He paid them this R10,00 and they took me to hospital. When I arrived in hospital the police also arrived. They wanted to talk to me. I told them that I cannot talk to them, because I was in pain. I told them to come the following day. They left. The following morning they came back in hospital. They asked me whether I was laying a charge against the person who did this to me. I said, yes, but I will lay a charge when I would be, when I was out of hospital. They asked me to give them a statement. I said that I do not have a statement to give them. I will go to them and give a statement when I was released from hospital. &#9;The doctors took me to the theatre to operate me. I stayed for two weeks and the third week, when I was going to the township, I met police in their Hippo. People were running away. I was still in pain at that time. When I tried to run away the police came. They took me to the Hippo. When I was in that Hippo they kicked me although I was coming from the hospital. They arrested me. I was in pain and I told them that I was sick, I was not well. 

MS MAYA: Let us go back. At the time you were in a shop, 

did you know the person who took you outside?

MR MPHITHI: Yes, I knew him. 

MS MAYA: Who was he?

MR MPHITHI: It was Gideon.

MS MAYA: Who was Gideon?

MR MPHITHI: He was a coloured man.

MS MAYA: Why did he take you out of the shop?

MR MPHITHI: I do not know, because he said to me he wanted to ask me something concerning being a Comrade. When I wanted to know what it was he took out a knife. When I tried to defend myself he cut my fingers.

MS MAYA: Did you lay a charge against him to the police?

MR MPHITHI: No.

MS MAYA: Why did you not lay a charge?

MR MPHITHI: Please repeat.

MS MAYA: Why did you not lay a charge against him?

MR MPHITHI: When I was released from the hospital I went to the police. I told them I wanted to lay a charge. They just took me and they arrested me. 

MS MAYA: Was there a court case?

MR MPHITHI: No, there was no court case.

MS MAYA: You mentioned a consumer boycott. What was happening?

MR MPHITHI: We were not supposed to buy in town as we were fighting for our rights. It was when Comrade Goniwe and others died. We, as the community, were in pain. We did not allow people to go and buy in town, because of certain reasons. We were supposed to buy only in the townships, but I was not involved in such things. Even when I got injured I was just on my way to shop.

MS MAYA: This Gideon told you that he wanted to know about being a Comrade. You went out to explain to him. What were you going to explain to him?

MR MPHITHI: I wanted to ask him what he wanted to say.

MS MAYA: How old were you at the time?

MR MPHITHI: I was 18 years old.

MS MAYA: Were you at school?

MR MPHITHI: No, I was not at school.

MS MAYA: What were you doing? Were you working?

MR MPHITHI: No, I was staying at home looking after livestock.

MS MAYA: Was there any organisation in the community or the youth organisation you belonged to?

MR MPHITHI: No.

MS MAYA: You say that it was a normal thing, at that time, for people at your age not to belong in an organisation?

MR MPHITHI: At that time I use to go out to look for my, out for the livestock.

MS MAYA: Let us now continue from where you said that you were arrested when you were laying a charge. For how long did you stay there?

MR MPHITHI: I stayed for 50 days.

MS MAYA: What happened in prison?

MR MPHITHI: When I was there, there was a police by the name of Matiwane Stemele. He would come to our cell and beat us and assault us. When I was about to be released he said that I am supposed to give them the guns that were in my home. I told them I know nothing about the guns. He told me that he will assault me, because I do know about these guns. 

MS MAYA: Do you know of any reason this policeman was 

accusing you of this?

MR MPHITHI: No. 

MS MAYA: What happened after you were released?

MR MPHITHI: I went home. When I arrived at home I asked my mother where was my younger brother. My mother told me that the police are looking for us and they are saying that there are petrol bombs and guns in my house and they were looking for them. I told my mother we know nothing about the petrol bombs and the guns. We did not know what the police wanted from us.

MS MAYA: Where was your younger brother?

MR MPHITHI: He was sleeping in the forest, because they were running away from home, because they were being assaulted by the police. When I arrived at home I was not happy. Every morning and every night the police would come. We would not sleep. They would come to my room, knock and kick the door. When I asked them what they wanted, they said they would beat me up and say that they wanted these guns. They would take me to the van and take us to prison, assault us and release us. 

MS MAYA: Who were these people who assaulted you?

MR MPHITHI: It was Matiwane Stemele. 

MS MAYA: Who is Sam Gcali, who is Sam Gcali?

MR MPHITHI: He is from Cradock. He is a policeman. He was one of the people assaulting me. I did not know why they were assaulting me, because I knew nothing. I only looked for livestock. I did not know what they wanted from me.

MS MAYA: What about Rooibaard?

MR MPHITHI: He was a policeman from Bedford.

MS MAYA: Where are they now?

MR MPHITHI: Stemele committed a suicide, he shot himself. Rooibaard is still in Bedford.

MS MAYA: Is he still a policeman?

MR MPHITHI: Yes.

MS MAYA: What about Gcali?

MR MPHITHI: Gcali is a policeman in Cradock.

MS MAYA: Do you see them now?

MR MPHITHI: No, but I only see Thomas in Bedford.

MS MAYA: Who is Thomas?

MR MPHITHI: Thomas is a police.

MS MAYA: Was he one of the people who assaulted you?

MR MPHITHI: Yes. 

MS MAYA: What happened after all this?

MR MPHITHI: I became sick, my ribs were broken. The doctor took me to hospital and they transferred me to East London.

MS MAYA: What year was this? Was it 1985 or 1986?

MR MPHITHI: It was in 1986. They took me to East London. In East London the doctor said that I must stay in hospital to recover. I stayed there in hospital. I was sick and I was not well. I was afraid of being assaulted. I will tell the doctor that I am not okay so that he will not discharge me from hospital, because I was scared of being beaten up. I stayed in hospital. The doctor would come to me and ask me how I felt. I will tell them, him that I am not well, because I was scared I did not want to go back home, because I would be assaulted by the police. We were not happy at that time.

MS MAYA: How long did you stay in hospital?

MR MPHITHI: I stayed for a year in hospital. I stayed for a whole year.

MS MAYA: Which hospital is this?

MR MPHITHI: It was in East London, but I do not remember 

the name of the hospital.

MS MAYA: Do you remember the doctor, the name of the doctor?

MR MPHITHI: There were many doctors. I do not know who was my actual doctor.

MS MAYA: When you came back from hospital were you assaulted?

MR MPHITHI: No, I was not assaulted, but my younger brother, when I came back, was the one who was being assaulted. He was shot when I came back.

MS MAYA: What was your brother's name?

MR MPHITHI: It was Stellom Mphithi.

MS MAYA: Where is he?

MR MPHITHI: He is in Bedford. He was shot by Mabityi in Newbright.

MS MAYA: Why was he shot?

MR MPHITHI: I do not know. He was in Port Elizabeth.

MS MAYA: Was it in connection with political activists?

MR MPHITHI: I do not know.

MS MAYA: Do you know whether he was a member of any organisation?

MR MPHITHI: No, I do not know.

MS MAYA: Mandlakayise, what is your request to the Commission? What is your request to the Commission?

MR MPHITHI: My request to the Commission is that police were harassing us and I cannot forgive them, because they were not supposed to treat us and it was against the Law to torture us and to treat us like that, because our lives were not safe. 

MS MAYA: In other words, what are you saying to the police now?

MR MPHITHI: What I am saying is that I cannot forgive them. I would like them to, I would like new members to be placed in the police force.

MS MAYA: You said that you want the perpetrators to come forward.

MR MPHITHI: Yes.

MS MAYA: You also mentioned that you need disability grant in order to take care of your ten year old child. Is that all you want to say?

MR MPHITHI: Yes, that is all.

MS MAYA: Thank you Mandlakayise. I will hand over to the Chairperson. Maybe there are questions you are going to be asked by my colleagues. Thank you. 

CHAIRPERSON: June Crichton.

MS CRICHTON: Mr Mphithi, I just have two questions for you. The first one is, maybe, a difficult question, but, perhaps, you may answer it if you want to. Were you ever approached by any State officials to assist them in their work against the community? 

MR MPHITHI: No, I was not approached by any. 

MS CRICHTON: Alright and the second question is to ask you what is the situation in Bedford now? You are saying that those who were part of assaulting you are actually still in Bedford, one of them is still in the police in Bedford. What is the situation in the community now?

MR MPHITHI: The situation in Bedford is not the same as before. Things are better now. 

MS CRICHTON: Thank you, Mr Mphithi. 

MR MPHITHI: Thank you, Mam.

CHAIRPERSON: Ntsiki Sandi.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mandlakayise, you said that you stayed for a year in hospital.

MR MPHITHI: Yes, that is so.

ADV SANDI: You do not know the name of the hospital?

MR MPHITHI: No, I do not know the name of the hospital.

ADV SANDI: The doctors in the hospital, you do not remember even one of them?

MR MPHITHI: No, I do not remember any, because there were many. Some of them were indians, coloureds, etcetera. 

ADV SANDI: You did not hear anyone mentioning the name of a doctor in hospital?

MR MPHITHI: In front of me, no. 

ADV SANDI: Do you know any of the nurses there in that hospital?

MR MPHITHI: No, I did not know any name, the nurse. I did not know anyone.

ADV SANDI: What is it, your left or right hand that was injured?

MR MPHITHI: It was the left.

ADV SANDI: You said that Gideon injured you. Is he a policeman or what?

MR MPHITHI: Gideon was against the police, but he was together with the police. 

ADV SANDI: He was together with the police?

MR MPHITHI: Yes, he was working together with the police.

ADV SANDI: Except that he was working with the police, what was his job?

MR MPHITHI: I do not know about his job.

ADV SANDI: Was he staying in your community?

MR MPHITHI: He was staying in a coloured township.

ADV SANDI: Is he still there?

MR MPHITHI: No, he passed away.

ADV SANDI: You mentioned a consumer boycott, were you part of that decision?

MR MPHITHI: No, I was not part of it.

ADV SANDI: When the shops in town were boycotted were you not part of that?

MR MPHITHI: No, I was not part of it.

ADV SANDI: Did you go and buy in town?

MR MPHITHI: No, I would not go and buy in town. 

ADV SANDI: What was happening to the people who broke this law. Were there any people who broke the law?

MR MPHITHI: No.

ADV SANDI: Everybody agreed?

MR MPHITHI: Yes, everybody worked together.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. 

CHAIRPERSON: Mandlakayise, do you know Matthew Goniwe?

MR MPHITHI: I do not know him, but I hear people talking about him. When I was injured, I got injured in that funeral, I was injured on the day before the funeral, I wanted to go to the funeral in Cradock, but I could not, because I got injured. 

CHAIRPERSON: People who were not involved in politics did not use to go to such funerals, why did you want to go?

MR MPHITHI: I wanted to go, because I wanted to join people who use to go. I would follow them and join them. 

CHAIRPERSON: But you were just looking after livestock, you were not in politics?

MR MPHITHI: Yes, I would take livestock and I would follow people to such places.

CHAIRPERSON: When people were arrested in Bedford, when you were arrested, sorry, in Bedford were there any Comrades who were arrested?

MR MPHITHI: Yes, there were many.

CHAIRPERSON: You were part of them?

MR MPHITHI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were they arrested?

MR MPHITHI: I do not know.

CHAIRPERSON: But the hospital you were admitted in in East London, although you do not know its name, do you know the hospital?

MR MPHITHI: Yes. 

CHAIRPERSON: If you can go to East London can you be able to point the hospital?

MR MPHITHI: Yes. 

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mandlakayise. You have told us a painful story that happened in small towns. People would be arrested like flies. You have told us a painful story, but the way you present your story, you make us laugh. We are laughing because you remember nothing, you were just looking after your livestock, but we can see that if we can sit down with you, there is a lot we can get from you that you have not revealed here today. We thank you and we will try to find out the name of the hospital. I know that you have mentioned that you do not remember the name. I know that if you are coming from a small town and you go into a city, you become confused. It might happen that you do not remember the name of the hospital, but it is important for us to know the hospital so that we can get a medical report. We thank you, Mandlakayise. You may step down. Do not run away, we will come back to you. 

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