=====================================================================
&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
=====================================================================
 &#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;31ST AUGUST 1999

NAME:&#9;NQABA DANIEL XULU

MATTER:&#9;PULOSONG HOSPITAL INCIDENT HELD AT:&#9;JISS CENTRE, MAYFAIR, JOHANNESBURG DAY :&#9;1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: I understand that we are going to deal with the matter of Xulu firstly today. And for the record my name is Judge Pillay. I'm going to ask my colleagues here to announce themselves for the record and the different representatives.

ADV SIGODI: Adv Sigodi from the Port Elizabeth Bar.

MR MALAN: Wynand Malan, local.

MR NDOYO: My name is IT Ndoyo from the firm ...(indistinct) and Associates, acting for the victim, Mrs Malbulani Josephine Khoza. Thank you.

MS MTANGA: I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Truth Commission. Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson, and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicant. I'm from the Eastern Cape. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Xulu, what language would you prefer to use.

MR XULU: I will use English.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you quite comfortable with that?

MR XULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

NQABA DANIEL XULU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any particular reason why the public has not been furnished with my headphones? Yes, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, let me first apologise for not - I prepared yesterday, I came to prepare a supplementary affidavit and I worked on it overnight and I was hoping that I will get the photostatting machine. I do have ...(indistinct) but unfortunately I was told that it's not yet available the photostatting machine for making copies available.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, why wasn't this done last week then? Why is it every time we have to start something we have to - we have these delays because attorneys or advocates have not done their work timeously.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the reason is that I - when I was given instructions last week I was - I'm from the Eastern Cape and it was only - it was going to be cost effective for me to come only - I came on...

CHAIRPERSON: I don't want to argue about whether it was cost effective to get an attorney from the Eastern Cape to Johannesburg to deal with a matter like this. That's another matter. The point of the matter is that judges have recently been accused of not doing sufficient work. It is these causes. I would trust that it's not going to re-occur, please.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, with respect, I want to say that I always prepare affidavit timeously, but unfortunately this incident unfortunately I couldn't make it in time for this one - for the two applicants I'm representing. But I did prepare overnight affidavits and I typed them.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. I'll read from the affidavit and the affidavit reads as:

&#9;&#9;"I, the undersigned Nqaba Daniel Xulu do hereby make an oath and state that I'm the applicant in the Pulosong Hospital Incident. The facts to which I depose to are true and correct and within my personal knowledge, unless the context indicates otherwise. I was born in Soweto, Johannesburg on the 29th of April 1970. 

&#9;&#9;I grew up in the Gauteng province. I left school in 1983 doing standard eight due to riots. We are 15 children at home and 13 of them are still living. My father took a package in 1994 and was working for United Tobacco Company. My mother is living on old age pension. 

&#9;&#9;I joined PAC through Azania in 1983 and joined APLA in exile in Zimbabwe in 1984. I did my military training in Zimbabwe under the command of Barnie Hlatswayo known as Mntumzolo and he is currently a General in the South African National Defence Forces. I was deployed inside the country in 1988. As APLA operative my general instructions from APLA high commando was to prosecute the arms struggle with all means against it, then resist a minority regime which was then undemocratic and oppressive. 

&#9;&#9;The said arms struggle was in essence a guerilla warfare during which we as APLA cadres had to ...(indistinct) and attack the bastions an mignons of the then aforesaid regime. The ultimate objective of PAC and APLA was not only to topple the then racist minority regime, but to eventually return the land to the majority of the African people. The bastions and mignons of the then erstwhile regime were in terms of APLA perspective. The members of the South African National Defence Force, the members of the South African Police and Reservists in general. The farmers as they belonged to the Commando structures over and above the fact that they occupy the farms which we had to drive them away from so as to widen our territorial operational base which was aimed at eventually consolidating the liberated and repossessed land. The white homes which were garrisons of apartheid. &#9;My general instruction was to seek, identify and attach the enemy who was seen in the context of the above bastions and mignons of the regime, and also to train other cadres and command them in whatever operation that is being embarked upon. In consequence of and in pursuit of the above stated objective, during or about the 11th of January 1993 I was given an order by Jabu Radebe to rescue Makwasenge Nkosi at Pulosong Hospital under the police guard. As a result one of the policemen, Daniel Khoza, lost his life. The events which led to the rescuing of Makwasenge Nkosi were briefly as follows: Makwasenge Nkosi and other members of the Unit were involved in an operation and Comrade Nkosi was shot, wounded and was arrested by the police and was detained in Pulosong Hospital under police guard. Jabu Radebe took a decision as a regional commander that Comrade Nkosi should be rescued as members of the unit may be compromised by his arrest. Hence I was tasked to command the unit that sprung him. 

&#9;&#9;The crimes for which I was convicted were motivated by my political beliefs and were not for self gain. At the time of the commission of the above stated offence the military wing of PAC, namely APLA, was still engaged in arms struggle against the then regime. When we took the decision to sprung Comrade Nkosi it was in the context of the arms struggle that I decided to participate and I perceived it as my duty and obligation to advance the arms struggle against the then authorities. My whole ...(indistinct) under the circumstances was a political one. 

&#9;&#9;I respectfully submit that my application complies with the requirements of the Act and that I have made full and proper disclosure of my involvement in the Pulosong Hospital incident. I therefore humbly beseech and pray to the Honourable Committee Members to grant me amnesty and release me unconditionally from prison.'

Signed by the applicant.

&#9;Mr Xulu, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it?

MR XULU: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, I'll go to certain paragraphs for the applicant on his own words to expatiate on certain aspects. Mr Xulu, can you in your own words tell the Committee exactly what happened during the incident in which you went to sprung Makwasenge Nkosi from prison, which resulted in the policeman losing his life.

MR XULU: It was on the 11th of January 1993 after we have done a very brief reconnaissance around three o'clock which was during the visit hour. We then came back - returned to the hospital at 11 o'clock in order to execute the mission. On our arrival we saw that there was a strong presence of policemen. 

&#9;Then we didn't use the main gate to gain entrance. Instead we went behind the hospital and that's where we got - we achieved the premises and we entered the wards through cubicles which have sliding doors. And on our arrival we found one of the policeman on the adjacent ward to which we were going to. We captured him. 

&#9;We went into the third ward and when we arrived there we found that Makwasenge was chained against his bed. As I have instructed that the other guy must go towards the deep end - that is Jangu must go towards the deep end and Mamba will remain on the door, then I will enter and uncuff him.

&#9;I used a bolt cutter to undo him against his bed.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that he was going to be chained?

MR XULU: No, we didn't but we anticipated that it could happen.

CHAIRPERSON: And that's why you took along the bolt cutter?

MR XULU: Yes, that was a possible probability.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR XULU: Yes. So I get the bolt cutter to undo him. Whilst I was in the process of cutting the leg irons, then someone emerged from the sliding door next to Jangu. That has caused - there was a little bit noise because the entire place was dead silent. So during his emergence there was that noise. Then we all turned towards him and that's when shots were fired. 

&#9;From then I then instructed the other guys because there were many police members in that ward.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see that it was a policeman?

MR XULU: Yep.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja?

MR XULU: So I told the other policeman - there was another one in the immediate bed who tried to move in the process. Then I instructed him to stay calm because if he does anything more people might get into danger. And we were trying our utmost best to execute the task of rescuing Makwasenge without hurting or infringing other people and patients.

&#9;So they then stayed calm. I continued. I cut him loose. Then we left the ward through the next sliding door, not the recent sliding door in which the guy was leaving. Up until then to the darkness and we left the ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Who shot the policeman?

MR XULU: Shots were fired by both Mamba and Jangu. So I can't tell who actually got him. 

CHAIRPERSON: Was the mission successful?

MR XULU: Yes, it was successful. We rescued him. Then they transported him to Soweto. I remained at the East Rand for the dust to settle. And that's when I was arrested. 

CHAIRPERSON: Are you presently serving a sentence?

MR XULU: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the sentence?

MR XULU: I'm serving a ten year sentence from '95.

CHAIRPERSON: For what?

MR XULU: For murder and possession of illegal firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: How many?

MR XULU: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: How many illegal firearms?

MR XULU: Well, truly speaking they got nothing from me, but I was sentenced for the possession of illegal firearms because of the fact that the deceased died through a firearm. And then because I was aligned with the keys, they then charged me with that and sentenced me for that.

CHAIRPERSON: You considered yourself bound by what your colleagues did at that time. Is that so?

MR XULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you knew they were armed.

MR XULU: Yes, I knew they were armed and they were acting under my command. That is why I am fully responsible.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did they get their firearms?

MR XULU: Where?

CHAIRPERSON: From whom?

MR XULU: As a Unit Commander I also organise some of the firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give it to them?

MR XULU: Yes, I gave them one AK47.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what you were convicted for, possession of a AK47?

MR XULU: Because that's the one which shot the fatal bullet.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Xulu, I would like to tell the Committee how did you gain entrance because police - you indicated that police were on the guard and you were armed with such heavy weapons. Why was it so easy for you to enter the hospital without - with such...

MR XULU: Thank you very much. That's one aspect that I forget to elaborate upon. In the organisation of everything I talked to one of my - a unit member which was Peter Mpashele who was a member of the police services then. He's the one - I requested him to give us the uniform, the police uniform so that we can easily gain access there. 

&#9;Then it was given to us only two pairs of the field rest type of police uniform. It couldn't fit me. That is why I didn't even wear it. It was only the two guys who wore the uniform. And why uniform? We wanted to gain the entrance on the pretext that maybe I was hurt and the two policemen are escorting me to the hospital.

&#9;But on our arrival there I saw that there was a strong presence of policemen and I saw that that couldn't work. Hence we decided to use the back of the hospital. 

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence, Chairperson, at the present moment. Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR NDOYO: Thank you, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NDOYO: Mr Xulu, you say that when you came there you were supposed to pretend that you were hurt and you were under the police guard of your two accomplices.

MR XULU: Ja.

MR NDOYO: Isn't it that at that time you already had the bolt cutter with you?

MR XULU: Yes, I already had the bolt cutter. I don't know whether I am to elaborate on that.

MR NDOYO: I assume that's my expectation.

MR XULU: Okay. Right. As a Unit Commander whatever I do I have to make it a point that I'm prepared for whatever resistance we might encounter. Hence the bolt cutter was there with us and the police uniform. And again the bolt cutter we were not going to use it if we gain entrance without using the police uniform. With or without police uniform the bolt cutter would have been needed if the guy was chained against his bed. 

MR NDOYO: I think I perfectly understood that.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: All that I'm asking you is that apparently your other two companions were to pretend they are merely police officers.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: I'm then asking myself where was the bolt cutter? Were you carrying the bolt cutter?

MR XULU: Yes, it was inside the jacket that I had on.

MR NDOYO: Did you at any stage hope that you were going to succeed ...(indistinct) these guys in that fashion carrying the bolt cutter?

MR XULU: Yes, I thought that will succeed.

MR NDOYO: Okay. Now you say Peter Mpashele was a member of the South African Police.

MR XULU: Yes, Sir.

MR NDOYO: Was he in any way your commander or somebody in that position?

MR XULU: No. He was - in his duties he was a sergeant and in our unit he was just one of the members.

MR NDOYO: Was he member of your unit?

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: How many members did your unit comprise of?

MR XULU: It was myself, Peter Mpashele and Makwasenge, Nthlantla, then Jangu and Mamba.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndoyo, is it in any dispute that the injured person was assisted in escaping from police custody while he was in hospital?

MR NDOYO: Mr Chairman, I do not think that that is in dispute. If I may disclose the line of cross-examination. I'm merely endeavouring to ascertain myself that a full disclosure is being made here. We are being told the truth and the whole truth. May I carry on then, Sir? Thank you. Now tell me this particular mission that was executed with the success that you have already alluded to on the 11th.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: Did you get any specific instructions to carry out that mission?

MR XULU: Specific instructions in which sense?

MR NDOYO: From anybody.

MR XULU: Yes, I was instructed by my area commander Jabu Radebe, alias Joe Nkosi to carry on with that mission.

MR NDOYO: And when was this?

MR XULU: It was on the 10th. That is on Sunday.

MR NDOYO: You are sure about that one?

MR XULU: Cocksure. 

MR NDOYO: Didn't you start your preparations earlier than the 10th about this particular mission?

MR XULU: To carry out the mission I will say I did - we didn't start before that. All I did on a Saturday I went all around looking for him. After I heard that he was shot I went to the Nigel Hospital, I want to Pulosong. That's where I found him on Saturday that he was there. Then I went down to Soweto to report to Joe Nkosi, who then instructed that it - and I even told him about the consequences of everything. Then he also saw it fitting to go there and reclaim him.

MR NDOYO: I see. Now you surely have been at pains to emphasise that you wanted to do this with as much minimal force and/or injury as possible to other people isn't it?

MR XULU: Most especially the patients. 

MR NDOYO: What about the police?

MR XULU: I think that's the reason why we were armed because we knew precisely that we'll get a resistance from the police. So we were waiting for anything which might erupt there.

MR NDOYO: Ja, I perfectly understand that, but isn't it that it was your stated objective that wherever you find police apparently you'd have to seek them, identify them and kill them.

MR XULU: Yes, but that is not done haphazardly. 

MR NDOYO: Okay. On that particular day.

MR XULU: On that particular day there was no police member which was a clear target because the main mission was then to attack policemen.

MR NDOYO: But to rescue your colleague.

MR XULU: Te rescue our colleague. And hence we armed ourself in a sense that we can equate whatever form of resistance that we might encounter.

MR NDOYO: And I seem to find the first indication of what you are saying in what you have said earlier on that as you came in you found another police officer in an adjacent ward.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: You didn't just kill him.

MR XULU: Not at all.

MR NDOYO: What you did was to capture him.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: And as you were busy cutting the bolt - I'm sorry the chain...

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: Somebody entered.

MR XULU: Right from behind, yes.

MR NDOYO: Yes. But he was not fighting, was he?

MR XULU: I won't tell whether he was fighting or not firstly. And secondly the main reason why we captured the first guy without raising any tendrils was that whatever we would have done then would have jeopardised the entire mission. Hence we had to capture them and we had to employ tactic better than force.

MR NDOYO: No, no, I must congratulate you for that. But I'm merely saying to you apparently you were not all out to kill. You captured the first policeman.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: And here comes in the second one.

MR XULU: H'm.

MR NDOYO: There are no indications or signs that he's up for a fight. He's not armed.

MR XULU: No, he was armed.

MR NDOYO: Did he carry a firearm?

MR XULU: Yes, he had a service pistol.

MR NDOYO: On him?

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: Was there any indication that he might - he intended using it?

CHAIRPERSON: Where was that firearm that he had?

MR XULU: It was then - it was confiscated. I saw it when we left. Jangu had it. It was confiscated then.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but you see him when he came in?

MR XULU: No. As I said before that I didn't see him. I heard the noise. When I turned there in my - there he was on the sliding doors. And it was within a fraction of a minute everything happened.

CHAIRPERSON: At what stage did you see the firearm?

MR XULU: When we were then retreating.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can't tell us whether he had drawn the firearm or not?

MR XULU: Or it was on him - on his person.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR XULU: No, I'll say I'm not ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You see the purpose of the question is to put to you that it was not politically necessary to kill that policeman. Can you deal with that?

MR XULU: That it wasn't politically?

CHAIRPERSON: Necessary. 

MR XULU: ...(no audible answer)

CHAIRPERSON: In other words that policeman was killed for reasons other than political reasons.

MR XULU: I will argue that because if he was come like other policemen and there was no action that he took, I don't think that he would have been shot on that instance.

MR NDOYO: Mr Xulu, with all due respect. Was it not part of your testimony that the - having captured the first policeman...

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: At some point you saw another police officer in another ward and then he was given clear instruction that he must move or else. Isn't it?

MR XULU: He was not on the other ward. They were on the same ward. There were plenty - there were more than two or three policemen in the specific ward that Makwasenge was under guard.

MR NDOYO: No, okay.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: But as far as the others were concerned or the other one was concerned he was told to remain still.

MR XULU: All of them. When we entered we told all of them to remain calm.

MR NDOYO: And I'm sure you realised, did you not, that this other one who was just coming in as you were busy cutting the chain, had not been given your instruction to remain still or else.

MR XULU: Nothing will have hindered him from hearing that because he was not fvom another ward, Sir, if I may correct you.

MR NDOYO: Okay.

MR XULU: In those wards the Pulosong wards there are cubicles outside the ward which are divided by sliding doors. The only mistake that we did we didn't realise that the sliding door was open - was slightly open. We only realised that after the guy came in. And I will - even the strong presence of the policemen outside in the entrance didn't give us an indication that the police were already prepared for what we were there for. And I only learnt that during the court proceedings that they were pre-informed about the mission which was about to take place.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me when you heard the sound at that sliding door, you saw this policeman coming into the ward, correct?

MR XULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you think he was going to do?

MR XULU: He might have stopped us from what we were doing. Either by shooting us or by telling us to drop our weapons because he was coming from the back.

MR NDOYO: But is it not possible as well that you might have thought that your colleagues were police officers and he was merely coming to talk to them?

MR XULU: Yes, then I would have thought likewise, but after learning that they knew that we were coming then it was an obvious case that he was only a tactical point as well waiting for this to happen so that he can foil it - he can foil all the attempts of rescuing our man.

CHAIRPERSON: When you testify don't think like the operative soldier. Just tell us the truth like a human being. Don't try to forecast what the advocate is trying to get at.

MR XULU: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: And I'm not saying how you must answer the question. I'm giving you advice. It is important to know whether there was a political reason for killing this policeman at the time. Do you understand that?

MR XULU: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Because if there was no political reason for killing him you may be in a bit of trouble. Do you follow?

MR XULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the advocate is carrying out his instructions. He's doing his job and that's why he's asking you about it. Do you understand?

MR XULU: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR NDOYO: And Mr Xulu, may I just add. If you don't know something I would find it very acceptable for you to tell this Honourable Commission that you don't know or you are not sure about the answer. And maybe just to step off that question. Do you know precisely why was this policeman killed or shot at?

CHAIRPERSON: One of your colleagues told you afterwards maybe.

MR NDOYO: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Even if those who shot at him...

MR NDOYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Told you afterwards we shot him because he did this, that and the other or whatever...

MR XULU: No, there was no other reason. The only thing that I think was the reason is only that he emerged from the strategic point. That's what I also think was the mere reason.

MR MALAN: Mr ...(indistinct) if you'll just excuse me. Mr Xulu, in the bundle there's a copy of the judgement in this case.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR MALAN: The judge in his summary of the facts - this is on page 20 the bundle, says that initially someone shot at the deceased while he was sitting on a bench outside the ward. They missed him and the shot went into the bench. Later he says further shots - two further shots were fired at the deceased and he died at the spot. Can you comment on this?

MR XULU: Yes. I don't think that he was shot at sitting on the bench or whatsoever. I think the shot which might have been shot when he fell might be the second, the third or - because there were many shots. Around five shots fired because the AK was on a single shot. So I can say maybe it was the second, third or whatsoever, but not the first one. Because he emerged from the cubicle.

MR MALAN: In the trial - in your trial was it - did they say or was there evidence that they had discovered a bullet in the bench?

MR XULU: No, it was never mentioned.

MR NDOYO: Thank you ...(indistinct)

MR MALAN: If I may just point it out to you on page 37 of the bundle. The Judge says in his summary again that it was clear to him from the evidence led at the trial that you wanted to eliminate all resistance before the release of the prisoner then - your comrade.

MR XULU: I will say again that was - I will say it was misconceived because if that was the reason we would have shot the first time. All what happened, and I think I left his out again, after we captured him the first time he was behind and he tried to grab and that's the evidence which was put across in the trial. He tried to grab a gun - that is a revolver - from Mamba. And that's a fire wen.. - it was discharged.

MR MALAN: Okay.

MR XULU: From there he ran and disappeared.

MR MALAN: But that shot was not an AK shot.

MR XULU: Not an AK shot. It was from a revolver the first one. And in the passage, not inside the ward. It was before we entered the ward. Hence when we entered the ward everything was to be done as soon as possible before the other guys were alarmed.

MR MALAN: And he was not sitting on a bench. Did you pass him sitting on a bench?

MR XULU: The first guy?

MR MALAN: The one who ...(intervention)

MR XULU: Who died.

MR MALAN: .. the victim who initially was killed. 

MR XULU: The victim was outside the ward as I said prior.

MR MALAN: That's right.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR MALAN: He was outside the ward.

MR XULU: Yes. And he was not seated. He might have - as I say it might have been the second, third or the fourth shot which might have hit the bench or whatsoever because I didn't even see that bench.

MR MALAN: When the victim was shot...

MR XULU: Yes.

MR MALAN: Was that the first time you people came across him?

MR XULU: Yes. We were seeing him for the first time.

MR MALAN: The person that you first - the policeman that you first came across was not the victim.

MR XULU: Not at all. That's ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: The person who grabbed the revolver...

MR XULU: Was the one who testified in the trial.

MR MALAN: I see.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: Mr Xulu, if you might refer to page 9 of the bundle. It might well be that I misunderstand what is written here. But what is actually meant here right at the one, two, three - at the fourth line,

&#9;&#9;"It all started on the 5th of January 1993."

Does that have any bearing to the happenings of the 11th?

MR XULU: Yes, it has a bearing in a sense of rescuing Makwasenge.

MR NDOYO: Okay.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR NDOYO: Okay. Now in hindsight, Mr Xulu, when you look at all this, do you think it was really necessary to shoot ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before we - just to get rid of any misunderstanding. Page 9 purports to be a statement. Is it - do you know who is the author of this statement?

MR XULU: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is it?

MR XULU: It's me.

CHAIRPERSON: It's your...

MR XULU: Yes, it's my statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR NDOYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now in hindsight having had time to sit and think and ponder and look back, do you think it was really necessary to kill this particular policeman, or you don't know?

MR XULU: On human basis - on human grounds it is unnec.. - it's always unnecessary to take one's life ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Xulu, I said stop testifying like a politician. Talk like a human being. Are you able to say whether your colleagues who shot that policeman was justified or not in the circumstances to kill?

MR XULU: I say they are justified.

CHAIRPERSON: At that time did you - would you be able to say so - say seeing that you did not see what happened?

You say you don't know what happened there behind you. When you saw this person and he was shot you were busy cutting the chains or whatever.

MR XULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you really in a position to say why your -what that policeman did or what he didn't do which resulted in your colleagues shooting him?

MR XULU: No. I'm not in a position of stating why they shoot at him.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR NDOYO: And finally maybe the question you were waiting for. That - how do you feel today about the whole thing looking back? Do you have any remorse? Do you have any regrets, or do you feel more powerful?

MR XULU: I feel very much remorse for the life which was lost.

MR NDOYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOYO

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no questions to put the applicant.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

MR MALAN: May I first ask from the Evidence Leader whether the implicated persons were served duly of notices of this hearing.

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson. Jabu Radebe is here. He wasn't at the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: And the others?

MS MTANGA: And the other people could not be located according to my instructions.

MR MALAN: Do you know where your co-perpetrator, your comrades, where they are today?

MR XULU: Oh, Peter Mpashele was - died in 1995. He was ambushed in his own backyard. Jangu also died and Patrick died. They were all shot.

MR MALAN: Then the second question I have is in your evidence you talk about your colleague Nkosi.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR MALAN: Nkosa.

MR XULU: Nkosi.

MR MALAN: Nkosi.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR MALAN: Some places it's spelt Nkosa here.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR MALAN: It's Nkosi.

MR XULU: Yes.

MR MALAN: That he was shot in a skirmish with the police.

MR XULU: In his?

MR MALAN: Was he shot in a - he was shot ...(intervention)

MR XULU: In a skirmish ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: .. during an operation you say.

MR XULU: Yes, Sir.

MR MALAN: What operation was that? Can you tell us? Do you know?

MR XULU: All I know was there were on a fundraising spree.

MR MALAN: As a member of your unit.

MR XULU: As a member of my unit, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I've heard a couple of these applications already. This fundraising spree. Would that be like raffles or robbing a bank.

MR XULU: Yes, it was a robber.

MR MALAN: Did you not participate in that operation?

MR XULU: No, I was not in that operation.

MR MALAN: You were only five members in your unit.

MR XULU: We had - yes, in the unit that took Makwasenge out of this ...(indistinct) we were four. Then only the three of us that participated. And we had many units. It wasn't the only unit. We had task units. For a certain mission there will be a unit for ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: So was he not a member of your unit?

MR XULU: He was a member of my unit on the other hand and he also operated with other units.

MR MALAN: And there was instructions or his own decision.

MR XULU: Exactly it depends on who is there and who is heading that unit.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly? I heard this type of evidence once before. You would have a fundraising commando who would select different operators and do a fundraising mission. Then you would have a police attack commander who would also be able or authorised to take whoever he needed for a particular operation. Am I correct?

MR XULU: Yes, the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is this possibly what happened?

MR XULU: Yes, it's possibly what happened.

MR MALAN: May I just ask you why are you applying for amnesty on this incident? Straight forward question. Why are you applying for amnesty?

MR XULU: In order to be granted amnesty - how can I put it? Because I feel that what has happened in the past needs to be reconciled. People have to spill the beans in order for true reconciliation to take place.

MR MALAN: Or is it simply that you want to get out of prison?

MR XULU: If I'm granted amnesty it will also help in that, but ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: No, the reason why I'm asking this question is from your evidence it's clear that you had as a target inter alia the killing of policemen. You've been operating for quite some time when this incident took place. Were there no other gross human rights violations, killings, robberies, where you could have spilt the beans too and tell us what happened in the past for the sake of this reconciliation that you're seeking.

MR XULU: I think that I discussed again with my representative but there was another mission that I was involved in and I applied for amnesty for that. And right now it's only this which has come through and that's the one that we are talking about now. 

MR MALAN: Were you prosecuted for the other mission?

MR XULU: Not at all.

MR MALAN: Now why is that mission not mentioned in your application form?

MR XULU: I applied on separate ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, when I consulted with him on - yesterday, I asked him whether there are any other incidents in which he was involved in and he told me there were other incidents, but when he submitted his application he made his application in different application forms for different incidents. So that's why the others don't appear on this application form.

MR MALAN: Have you had any communication from the TRC on the other incidents - other applications?

MR XULU: To date nothing has transpired.

MR MALAN: If we had any record of that we would probably have advised you, but it's not before us at the moment. The question was really simply to see whether your answer that you're seeking reconciliation was a serious one or whether you simply wanted - and you're entitled to apply simply to get out of prison. I'm not attacking that. Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Xulu, have you seen the family of that policeman that was killed.

MR XULU: No, I never saw them. Even at the court of law they were not there.

CHAIRPERSON: What is your attitude towards speaking to them now or after this?

MR XULU: I'd be very pleased to meet them so that I can in front of them ask for forgiveness for what I've done.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you plan to do if you are released from prison?

MR XULU: It will depend whether there is still a chance of integration. Then I can integrate. If there's not I have to pursue my studies.

CHAIRPERSON: From the position you held in your political line, as much as we are a young democracy with all it's problems in building this democracy, are you comfortable that at least there has been a start to democratic life in this country?

MR XULU: Yes, I will say I am comfortable and I think it needs nurturing because if it is not nurtured ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, ja.

MR XULU: .. then things might be haywire.

CHAIRPERSON: And you - if the two attorneys can arrange a meeting with the family of the policeman, are you willing to take advantage of it? I don't know whether they wish to meet you.

MR XULU: That ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That the attorneys will have to see.

MR XULU: I'll be very much happy, Sir, if I can have a chance of meeting them in person.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. You're excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. The only person, Chairperson, I will call is Jabu Radebe just on the aspect of giving an order for the rescuing whether it's ...

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if that's the case then that's the evidence of the applicant, Chairperson. 

MR NDOYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, ...(indistinct) I'm actually constrained to call upon Mr Khoza who has indicated to me together with all other family members that they wish to be afforded the opportunity at least to say something. Can I call Mr ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) and/or is he going to talk on behalf of all the ...(intervention)

MR NDOYO: Mr Chairman, he will be speaking on behalf of the whole family.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khoza, what language would you prefer to use?

MR KHOZA: Northern Sotho, Sir. I am James Khoza. I am the brother to the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

MR KHOZA: I have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please stand.

MR KHOZA: I have problems the way we - because the whole family members are - have been hurt by this incident and I want to thank the Commission for giving us this opportunity.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but will you please stand. I want to swear you in.

JAMES KHOZA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated. You say you're the brother of the deceased. 

MR KHOZA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed.

MR NDOYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR NDOYO: Mr Khoza, may you please explain to the Commission as to who else from the family is here today?

MR KHOZA: The wife to my brother. That is Modjadji Khoza and Josephina.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell that name please.

MR KHOZA: M-O-D-J-A-D-J-I.

CHAIRPERSON: And Josephina?

MR KHOZA: And Josephina is the wife to the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: Modjadji whose wife is she?

MR KHOZA: He's the wife to my elder brother.

CHAIRPERSON: The deceased?

MR KHOZA: No, Sir, the wife to the deceased is Josephina.

MR NDOYO: Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did they have any children?

MR KHOZA: Yes, that is correct, three children, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give their names and ages and sex.

MR KHOZA: The first one is a boy, a son. That is Eric.

CHAIRPERSON: How old?

MR KHOZA: I think he was born in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja?

MR KHOZA: I forgot the name of the other one, but the other one is Sesi.

CHAIRPERSON: The other one whose name you forget what sex is that person?

MR KHOZA: She's a daughter who comes after the first one.

CHAIRPERSON: Your own niece you forget the name.

MR KHOZA: I just forget her name, the Christian name. She has the other name and I forgot.

CHAIRPERSON: Proceed.

MR KHOZA: The second born is Pocia.

CHAIRPERSON: Spell it.

MR KHOZA: P-O-C-I-A. And the last one is Sesi, S-E-S-I. It's a girl.

CHAIRPERSON: When was Pocia born?

MR NDOYO: Chairperson, though I didn't get it correctly the - I don't know the first one is '82. The second one is '84. The third one is '89, but I don't know the names there.

CHAIRPERSON: And Sesi is a female.

MR KHOZA: Ja, it's a girl.

MR NDOYO: What are they doing these children at the moment?

CHAIRPERSON: It's sufficient that we know they are the children of the victim.

MR NDOYO: Now, Mr Khoza, is it correct so that when you people came here as a family or relatives of the deceased, you came here and as more clearly set out in the affidavit by the wife of the deceased you came here basically to oppose the application for amnesty.

MR KHOZA: Yes, I'm here to oppose the application for amnesty.

MR NDOYO: Now Mr Khoza, in your own words as briefly as you possibly could, can you state to this Commission why would you oppose this application?

MR KHOZA: I oppose because when I studied this situation the deceased was at work. He was on duty and then he was killed on duty. He was working as a policeman. If they found him on the street and they had a conflict, I would understand. But the problem is they've killed him on the line of duty.

MR NDOYO: Mr Khoza, is it correct so that before today the family never had the opportunity to know who were the people who committed the offence or the killing and never had the opportunity to listen themselves as to what actually transpired.

MR KHOZA: I want to thank the Truth Commission about what they have done because now we know that who is responsible for the death of my brother and then what happened, but I'm not prepared to forgive.

MR NDOYO: Yes, forgiving is difficult. But tell me because I'm merely acting on your instructions. Having listened to the evidence by the applicant and the detail of what happened and why it was done does that somehow assist you or not in making you reconcile with the past?

MR KHOZA: When I was trying to evaluate this incident, yes, I understand the way he has put his evidence. But I don't understand clearly because I don't believe that a - any person has the right to kill any other person.

MR NDOYO: And finally, Mr Khoza. I'm sure you were listening as the Chairperson asked the applicant whether he will take up the opportunity if it presents itself, to talk to you as a family about this whole incident and how he indicated that he wants to apologise in front of you people. Would you take up the offer? And you're not entirely bound by what you say here. I'm sure we can still discuss it outside, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: At the appropriate place instead of asking the question now. You've got to appreciate he's probably heard for the first time what has happened to his brother. There's some extent of shock. Perhaps in the cool calmness of - and not in public maybe such arrangements could be made.

MR NDOYO: Thank you, Judge. I couldn't agree more. Mr Khoza, you would be well advised even from my side having heeded the advice that there - let's leave that particular question. We'll discuss that matter outside. Do you have anything further to add?

MR KHOZA: I have nothing to add, Chairperson.

MR NDOYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOYO

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any questions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

ADV SIGODI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR NDOYO: ... witnesses, Mr Chairperson.

MS MTANGA: I have no evidence to lead, Chairperson. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: That seems to bring us to the end of testimony. We'll break for tea now and thereafter we will hear argument on the application.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Any reason that you can submit why we shouldn't grant this application?

MR NDOYO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairman, all that I can place on record is the following. That having discussed the matter with my client and having reflected on the evidence already adduced, it is my instructions to state to this Committee that my clients still stand by the initial position namely that they wish to oppose this application. Unfortunately, Mr Chairperson, we cannot take our case any further. I have considered ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I quite understand your position. Is there anything else you want to add?

MR NDOYO: Nothing else. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Evidence leader, have you got any submissions to make?

MR MTANGA: No, Mr Chairperson. I would like to leave the matter in your hands. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) we don't need to hear you. Decision on this matter will be delivered in due course. We proceed to the next matter now.

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, can we ask - would like to adjourn for five minutes to allow Mr Mohlaba to move out and call the next applicant.

MR MOHLABA: No, I can move out whilst you're sitting.

MS MTANGA: And the applicant - he has requested that he meets with applicant for two minutes before he starts.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought that would have been done during the tea adjournment which was ...(indistinct). Do you know anything about those placards or why are these placards up in - shown here?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I would know nothing about the placards, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you ask those people waving the placards to remove it from this hall, please. Not to put it down, to remove it, please. Mr Mbandazayo, I would like you to, since seeing that you are appearing for Africans or associated with that political organisation, if you are able to please explain to them that I'm not entitled to give a judgment here today. Those must be processed and go to the State President's office for him to make the decision finally and to publicise it. If you are able to do it, if you can't, well tough luck.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'll ...(indistinct) to that, Chairperson. Thank you.

NAME:&#9;MR RAMAILA

MATTER:&#9;PADFONTEIN FARM INCIDENT

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

CHAIRPERSON: We are going to deal with the matter of Ramaila. In this case also I am Judge Pillay. I am going to ask my colleagues to announce themselves for the purposes of the record.

ADV SIGODI: I'm Adv Sigodi from the Port Elizabeth Bar.

MR MALAN: Wynand Malan, Commissioner of the TRC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm Lungelo Mbandazayo, representing the applicant from the Eastern Cape. Thank you, Sir.

MS MTANGA: I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Truth Commission. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, are there no appearances for any victim or families?

MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson. According to the investigation the wife of the deceased was - endeavours were made to locate her on the address that appeared on the police dockets and it was discovered that she no longer lives in that address and some other people live there and no-one knows where she is. An advertisement was put on the newspaper to try and have her attend the hearing, but she has not attended. And also that at the time of the death of the deceased they were estranged from one another.

CHAIRPERSON: No family member of the deceased has put in an appearance?

MS MTANGA: No person, no-one has appeared.

MR MALAN: Sorry, may I just follow up on this. Do you have a copy of the newspaper advert for us for our record?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I'm not sure if I can furnish you with the advertisement, but I will endeavour to present it before the Committee.

MR MALAN: You see, Ms Mtanga, I'm getting rather upset about this because we're simply told that people can't be located, but no efforts communicated to us are every substantiated in terms of any documentary proof. And it's important that the victims do get notice. Is there any information whether deceased had children?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, we don't have such information, but I do have the investigation reports indicating that they did endeavour to locate the family, but they couldn't locate anyone.

MR MALAN: I'll appreciate it if you could make that available to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ramaila, what language would you like to use?

MR RAMAILA: Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RAMAILA: (sworn states)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, for the purposes of the hearing I will use the affidavit which has been supplied to - the supplementary affidavit for purposes of the ...(indistinct) I'll proceed and read the affidavit

CHAIRPERSON: If the applicant has had sight and understands the contents you don't need to read it. We've been given a copy of it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. I've gone through with him. It's just for him to confirm that. Then I will...

CHAIRPERSON: Except if it's not signed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the original is with me which is signed because I requested that it be photostatted whilst I was busy with the other part of it.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. As long as we get the original at some time.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes. Chairperson, after...

CHAIRPERSON: Just keep your finger on your microphone, please.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, what happened when I was requested two minutes, Chairperson, was because it was used for photostatting. Then I was requesting - I wanted him to sign the original, Chairperson. That's the reason it was photostatted before he signed it. So that's the reason. I will submit to the Committee ...(indistinct) hearing so that it can be part of the record, Chairperson, to sign one.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Ramaila, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Members of the Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, that's true.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, then I will proceed to specially to paragraph 9 to ask the applicant to elaborate on the incident. Mr Ramaila, can you tell the Committee in your own words your preparation regarding the attack at the Padfontein Farm.

MR RAMAILA: With regards to the preparations that led to my attack on the farm. I was recruited by Patrick Mohale in Africa. I met him and when I met him he told me about the objective of the PAC organisation. The PAC stands for what and what is it fighting for here in the country South Africa that is. And I explained to him that I support in full force PAC.

&#9;Resultantly I told him that there is a situation that is not quite conducive not to fall away from where I reside in Benoni. My telling him this, Patrick, is that the situation is not conducive there in Benoni resulting from oppression of the blacks. That there were people who were working at the farm and had told me or conveyed to me that there are white men, or the boss there is harassing them.

&#9;And I told him that this white farmer is oppressing and torturing and harassing the people here. And those people who were working in the farm they were not South Africans, but came from Mozambique.

&#9;On my telling Patrick this that those people are highly harassed and annoyed from South Africa, there's got to be something that gets done with regards to this. And as for then I was quite busy and engaged in other things and also there were firearms that we needed to be used to further this mission.

&#9;And I told him that this white farmer has firearms as well. Therefore he asked me to go and approach that white man to repossess or confiscate the firearms from him. I agreed to that to go to that white farmer as long as I'll also have something in my hand. And he furnished me with a firearm as well.

&#9;I then left and he also further instructed me that when I arrive there at the farm I should confiscate or take firearms and shoot the owner of the farm and confiscate all the firearms and everything that may be deemed necessary to further the mission of the organisation.

&#9;Indeed I carried through this. I arrived at that farm and I could already tell the problem that was to get hold of that white farmer. And I therefore thought I should set alight. I set alight the grass so that this white man could get out and as to ascertain what was happening outside. That was my plan to get him out.

&#9;Indeed that worked. He got out and together with his workers they ran to try to extinguish the fire and I went inside the house immediately at that very moment. And I could not necessarily get done what I wanted to do. In the meantime outside the people were finishing the work that they were up to.

&#9;And I decided to hide in the lorry that was parked right in front of the door. When they came back after putting off the fire and got inside towards the house, the big house, he went inside the house together with these people, his workers.

&#9;I stood and watched at them getting inside the house and as they walked into the house, well they followed the white man right the whole way and they left the door open. And I left the lorry, headed towards the house or inside the house.

&#9;As I entered I saw a bedroom that had a couch or a sofa and I hid behind the sofa until the white man got out to close the door and the workers left the house as well to go to their respective places. And he went back inside and he went to the dining room and watched television.

&#9;In that instant as he was watching the television I left to the main bedroom. When I got to the main bedroom I searched for the firearms if I could be able to locate some. Indeed I found two firearms.

&#9;In the further search I got another one and I left the main bedroom with the intention of heading towards him so that he could see I'm now around and I have arrived in the house. And as I entered the hallway he was also leaving the dining room to his main bedroom.

&#9;Then I had to hide and got into the kid's bedroom. And as he was around the bedroom where I was in I drew out my firearm and pointed it to him. And he could see what was happening was that I was armed and pointing the firearm at him. And he was left with no option or choice, but to lie down.

&#9;As I said, insisted and instructed him to lie down he did not listen or did as I instructed. He tried to run away and I still tried to stop him from running away because I told him that there's no way you can go, because I'm right here and armed.

&#9;He in spite of that still ran away and I decided there and then to shoot him. And I shot him right beneath his mouth. I think on the chin. And there were two flower pots. And there were also flowers in those flower pots or vases and inside those flower pots there was another rifle, big gun there.

&#9;And I took him with to his bed. And took other things as well that were available there and loaded them in his car and drove away to Pietersburg. That is where I was going to meet my Africa Patrick Mohale. That's what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: What were your instructions from Patrick? You have to attack this farmer for what purpose?

MR RAMAILA: What I know and what I was told by Patrick Mohale is that PAC is in quite a struggle fighting the oppressors and because of that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Look, we know that. What were his orders to you in respect of this incident? That's what I want to know.

MR RAMAILA: When he instructed me he also conveyed to me that I should go and when I arrive or get there in the farm that I shall confiscate or take firearms and other things that could help in the severance of the organisation's plan or mission. And...

MR MALAN: Such as what things?

MR RAMAILA: ... and also instructed me to kill the owner of the farm. 

MR MALAN: When he instructed you to take other things that could further the organisation's mission, what things did he suggest?

MR RAMAILA: According to me, or as for my interpretation of that that meant that could be things that could be sold.

MR MALAN: No, I'm not asking you what your interpretation is. I asked you whether he gave you examples of the type of things or the specific things that you could take.

MR RAMAILA: No, he did not give me an example.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what led to your arrest in Pietersburg?

MR RAMAILA: For me to be arrested I was on my way to Pietersburg where I was going to meet with Patrick Mohale. I was going to meet with him in ...(indistinct) at Mugade's place or the area that was called Mugade. This is a quiet place and a very small place. There were no cars around during the week especially. 

&#9;Because of that I left and when I got to ...(indistinct) I parked or stopped at a certain place where I figured if I could delay around there I will be able to make it safely to the place where we will be meeting. As I was still there waiting for an appropriate time for me to proceed to get there, I saw suddenly the police emerging in possession of firearms. And when I got out they did not even pose a question as to what car - whose car I was driving. They were already assaulting me. And I found myself at ...(indistinct) police station.

CHAIRPERSON: What type of things did you take from that house?

MR RAMAILA: I remember very well I took a typing machine as well as the TV set and two suitcases that had clothes in them. And I loaded all that in the car and took the car as well that belonged to the owner of the farm.

MR MALAN: Were you in any way involved with a motor cycle? A motor cycle stolen at the place - at the farm.

MR RAMAILA: I know nothing with regards to the motor cycle.

CHAIRPERSON: In respect of which offences are you applying for amnesty?

MR RAMAILA: I seek amnesty because at the time of this offence that time was regarded as a very violent time and especially that was oppression and we were in a struggle. For me to sit back ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ramaila, I've heard that. I've read it. I know those things. I'm asking simply for which crimes are you wanting or are you seeking amnesty?

MR RAMAILA: I seek amnesty for what I committed. Repossession as the applicant states because I repossessed items because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me what you are applying for. Amnesty in respect of which offences?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I seek amnesty for that that I killed and after whilst took or confiscated things that were there.

ADV SIGODI: Were you the only person who was given these instructions?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Was is just you and Patrick Mohale? They gave only you these instructions?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, that is correct. They gave me the instruction alone. 

ADV SIGODI: And you went to the farm alone. You were not accompanied by any other people?

MR RAMAILA: I was alone as I carried this mission.

ADV SIGODI: Who gave you the information about the ill-treatment of the farm workers?

MR RAMAILA: Two men who were working there at that particular farm, Santos Pilankose and Sipho Mashinene.

ADV SIGODI: Were they also from Mozambique?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, they were from Mozambique.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know if they are still - do you know where they are today?

MR RAMAILA: I have no idea as to their whereabouts as till today because they were residing in the same premises, the farm that is.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know why they came and gave you this information about this farmer? Why did they choose you?

MR RAMAILA: For them to tell me this. I was a taxi driver, a local taxi driver in Daveton location and I met them. They were coming from a certain place, shopping complex in Daveton. They had just purchased things like food, two crates of soft drinks and they asked me that I offer - deliver services to where they live. 

&#9;And in - as we were driving on the way towards the farm they stopped me a bit far away from the gate of the farm. And I asked them where - as to where they were living, as to where they stayed. And they showed me. And I asked them this is quite questionable. Why don't you leave me to drive all the way to the gate exactly where you are staying?

&#9;They told me that the boss or the white man they are working for does not want any visitors and if they - or if he could see this that will lead them into trouble and they may be dismissed from work as well resultantly. And that led to my knowing about them.

&#9;That's when they told me more about their boss. He does not have time for them. And if they don't follow his instructions he treats them very bad.

ADV SIGODI: Was it the first time that you met these people when you were giving them - when you were taking them to the farm?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, that was the first time I met with them on that particular day.

ADV SIGODI: Did you meet them afterwards?

MR RAMAILA: Afterwards yes, I met them when I was going to them to ask them or to tell them that I had already met with Patrick and Patrick told me that I should ensure that - what's happening there and I must meet with these people so that they tell me exactly their routine and their daily activities and what happens where. So I get myself acclimatised to their ways.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get back to the question I asked. What are you applying for?

MR RAMAILA: ...(no audible answer)

CHAIRPERSON: Is it rape, murder, shoplifting, whatever?

MR RAMAILA: I seek amnesty for playing a role in the killing of the owner of that farm and the things that I took thereof. Things like I've already made mention of.

CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat it.

MR RAMAILA: Well, I took a typing machine, a TV set as well as two suitcases. And the car and firearms that I found in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: How many firearms?

MR RAMAILA: There were four firearms I realised in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Where do you stay?

MR RAMAILA: I stay in Daveton in Mandela Park in the informal settlement, the shacks, no 29.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you going to meet - what's this guy's name - Patrick?

MR RAMAILA: We were going to meet with him in Pietersburg ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: How far is that from Daveton?

MR RAMAILA: It's quite a distance.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. A couple of ...(intervention)

MR RAMAILA: It's quite far.

CHAIRPERSON: ... it's more than 100 kilo's, is that not so?

MR RAMAILA: It's 250 kilometres from Daveton to Pietersburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. And you are on your way - what were you going to do there with Patrick where you're going to meet him there in Pietersburg?

MR RAMAILA: I was going to hand these things to him.

CHAIRPERSON: The typing machine?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The TV set?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The two cases of clothes?]

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The four firearms?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the motor vehicle?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What was he supposed to do with it?

MR RAMAILA: As an APLA Commander I had no idea as to what he was going to put those things into use for. I thought he will use those things. Perhaps sell them and get money and the Africans were poor at the time. Maybe they could have been helped by the money that's been realised from the selling of those items.

CHAIRPERSON: Selling those items were going to deliver our people from bondage, poverty. Is that what you thought?

MR RAMAILA: I mean to say that because what I knew from Patrick is that the organisation had firearms and the dwellings of the Africans were quite poor and the infra-structure as well was of poor quality. And that money could have helped to furnish or to supply them with food.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, how were you going to get back to Daveton?

MR RAMAILA: I was ...(indistinct) going to go back to Daveton. I was working in ...(indistinct) as a taxi driver. I resided in Daveton.

CHAIRPERSON: No. How were you going to get back from Pietersburg to Daveton? You're going to give this car to Patrick that took you there. 

MR RAMAILA: I could have used a taxi or buses.

CHAIRPERSON: No. Don't tell me what you could have used. Tell me what your plans were. What were you going to do to get back to Daveton?

MR RAMAILA: ...(no audible answer)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you have a plan to get back to Daveton?

MR RAMAILA: At the time I was still going to Pietersburg. So I wouldn't have thought or had a plan in place as to how I will be getting back to Daveton.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no. Part of your plan was to rob this gentleman - kill him, rob him, take those proceeds to Patrick in Pietersburg. Surely there must be the rest of the plan as how to come back to Daveton, not so? That must have been part of the plan?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, that was part of the plan.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Now I want to know that part of the plan, how were you going to get back to Daveton?

MR RAMAILA: That is exactly what I'm saying that I was still on the plan of getting to Pietersburg. In other words I'll cross the bridge when I get there. I did not have a plan yet in place about going back to Daveton and with whom to go back to Daveton.

CHAIRPERSON: You - what you are actually saying is now - or let me ask you first. Why didn't you deliver these items and the motor vehicle to Patrick in Daveton then?

MR RAMAILA: Patrick was not in Daveton. Patrick was in Pretoria on his way to Pietersburg that week. This is why he said to me when I go for this operation and as soon as I'm done with it I shall now go to Pietersburg. That's where I'll find him.

CHAIRPERSON: And somewhere quiet so you can handle with all these things where not many people are. Is that what I understood you to say in your evidence?

MR RAMAILA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said you were waiting for him there where there was not many cars, especially because it was not a weekend or something to that effect. Did you not say so?

MR RAMAILA: I did say that.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja. Isn't that the reason you went to Pietersburg then? To get to a quiet place so that you could handle with these things.

MR RAMAILA: No, that is not so.

CHAIRPERSON: Anyway, you had just committed horrendous crimes, including murder and your plan was to take all these things to Pietersburg to hand over to Patrick. And yet you tell us that you did not have a plan as to how to get back to Daveton. When and how etcetera, and with whom. Is that what you're telling us?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, carry on, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Ramaila, where did you meet Patrick first when you first met him?

MR RAMAILA: The first encounter with Patrick was in Hammanskraal, Pretoria region where my uncle resided and had a house there and as I visited my uncle's house I met Patrick because he was renting a house in the same premises where my uncle's house was. A small room I think in the back.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You have told the Committee - you have been asked by the Committee that you were going to Pietersburg. Did you know the place where you were going to meet with Patrick in Pietersburg and if you knew it, how did you know it?

MR RAMAILA: The place upon which myself and Patrick would meet in Pietersburg was a place that was quite familiar to me as well as Patrick. He liked visiting the place or going to the place. For me to get to know the place I was in his company to go to that place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: During the evidence in court...

MR MALAN: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo. I am not sure that I understood or heard it. What was the answer there, Mr Ramaila? Did you go with Patrick to that place in Pietersburg? Is that what you told us?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

MR MALAN: After the robbery and the killing?

MR RAMAILA: No, before the incident. 

MR MALAN: Now when did you first meet Patrick?

MR RAMAILA: I first met the first time with Patrick in Pretoria in Hammanskraal. 

MR MALAN: And when you met with him for the first time he told you about PAC.

MR RAMAILA: Yes, he told me about the objectives of the PAC and that PAC is in a war.

MR MALAN: The objectives. But he told you at the first meeting about the PAC.

MR RAMAILA: Yes, the first time we met he told me all about that.

MR MALAN: And according to a statement of yours on the bundle, at that stage you told him about this farmer and the Mozambiquans and the ill-treatment of the Mozambiquans. Is that also correct?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

MR MALAN: And then he told you that you could do something about it because that's what you wrote us in this statement and you decided you would go there and kill this farmer. Is that correct?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Now when did you go to Pietersburg with Patrick?

MR RAMAILA: You see this thing did not happen in one day or that particular day when we met with Patrick. It happened as the days went on because when I told Patrick about this he said to me we must talk about this further. As for now he was in a rush. He had a meeting that he was rushing to in Pietersburg. That was the day when I went with him to Pietersburg and got to see the place where we would later on meet after the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: From where did you go with him to Pietersburg?

MR RAMAILA: We were coming from Hammanskraal.

CHAIRPERSON: How far is that from Pietersburg?

MR RAMAILA: It's also quite a distance. 

CHAIRPERSON: How long did you drive?

MR RAMAILA: I don't quite remember - I don't remember the minutes or the time.

CHAIRPERSON: An hour? More than an hour?

MR RAMAILA: It depends how fast you drive by the way.

CHAIRPERSON: No, that day when you did drive, did it take you more than a hour or a hour or less than a hour to get there?

MR RAMAILA: I wouldn't be able to say as to how long than can take from Pietersburg to Hammanskraal.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you people not talk about the plans of this farm during that trip?

MR RAMAILA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not? He was in a hurry. He said I must go to Pietersburg. You're in the car with him. Why don't you discuss this problem with that farm with the Mozambiquans?

MR RAMAILA: Well, as for me and Patrick had some discussions. Indeed Patrick explained to me as to what his role and position was and under who was he working at the time of the trip. He was the one talking mostly during the trip.

ADV SIGODI: How long was it after this trip did you go and kill this farmer?

MR RAMAILA: After a few months. I think three or two months.

ADV SIGODI: And during this period did you attempt any - did you meet Patrick during these two or three months?

MR RAMAILA: No, I had not met with him because I was no longer in Hammanskraal. I had already left Hammanskraal. I was now home in Daveton. I had secured employment in Daveton.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you a member of any political party?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I am a member.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one?

MR RAMAILA: PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: For how long?

MR RAMAILA: I started supporting PAC from 1990. Then met Patrick Mohale '91.

CHAIRPERSON: So you supported the PAC before you met Patrick.

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you knew everything about the PAC before you met him.

MR RAMAILA: I did not know a thing before about PAC before I met with Patrick. All I knew was that PAC is an organisation that was fighting on behalf of the blacks who were oppressed and poor at the time. That's all I knew that blacks were oppressed by the whites in relation to the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're applying for amnesty in respect of the murder, the things you took. Would that be robbery or theft?

MR RAMAILA: (No audible answer)

CHAIRPERSON: You robbed that person, isn't it? You killed him and you took the things. So that's robbery. Anything else?

MR RAMAILA: Well, I was not there - or I did not go there to steal or to do the way as you are explaining, your Honour. But the reason why I had gone there was that I was going to take what was taken from us, the black race, as Patrick had already explained to me.

MR MALAN: May I refer you to the bundle. On page 5 of the bundle there's a letter that you apparently wrote to the TRC. Is that your letter?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did you write the letter? Did someone write it for you?

MR RAMAILA: I asked somebody to write for me because I'm illiterate. I can't write.

MR MALAN: Can you read what's in this letter?

MR RAMAILA: Well, reading English is my major problem.

MR MALAN: Now let me just tell you what this person wrote on your behalf. And I'll summarise it. Mr Mbandazayo can check if he wants to. And I'll do it without necessarily now referring to the letter since you can in any event not read it. 

&#9;But what you wrote the TRC here is that at some stage you met these two Mozambiquans. They told you that they were being abused. That they were fired without any reason and it appears from the letter that the Mozambiquans were not in the employ of this farmer when you met them.

&#9;Then you continue and you later say that you met up with Patrick. He told you about the PAC and then you remembered these Mozambiquans and you discovered that at last you could do something about this farmer. This is going over to page 6 now.

&#9;You told Patrick what was going on and Patrick told you that you should go and kill the farmer and he gave you a gun. Can you remember that Patrick gave you a gun?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I do.

MR MALAN: It wasn't your gun.

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

MR MALAN: And then Patrick said to you - and this is now more or less in line with your evidence - that you could take whatever you saw fit to generate funds for the organisation. And he told you that this was sort of a test and after completing your test you should meet him in Pietersburg it looks like at Skinard the stand which was occupied by a PAC member whom you knew. Now who was this PAC member?

MR RAMAILA: David Mohale.

MR MALAN: Was this family of Patrick's?

MR RAMAILA: No, they knew each other.

MR MALAN: Did you meet David Mohale in Pietersburg when you got there?

MR RAMAILA: No, I did not meet him there.

MR MALAN: Why not?

MR RAMAILA: It's because I got arrested before I could get there.

MR MALAN: Now in your trial you did not give evidence. Is that correct?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: You were nevertheless found guilty on the evidence of some State witnesses. Is that correct?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Now the name Poppie, is that name known to you? MR RAMAILA: Yes, I do know.

MR MALAN: Who is Poppie?

MR RAMAILA: Poppie is my relative. It's a member of my family.

MR MALAN: Where does Poppie live?

MR RAMAILA: Lives in Skinard in Pietersburg.

MR MALAN: Isn't that where David Mohale lived?

MR RAMAILA: No.

MR MALAN: Why did you say in your letter to the TRC that you had to meet Patrick at a stand in Skinard occupied by a PAC member whom I knew, which member you told us is David Mohale. Why didn't you go to David Mohale? Why did you go to Poppie or shall I first ask did you go to Poppie when you got to Skinard.

MR RAMAILA: I did say that Skinard is quite a massive area the community is massive as well. That is where I parked and waited for the time that I would be able to proceed to the designated area where we would be meeting.

MR MALAN: Please, Mr Ramaila, let's not play tricks. You drove from Benoni to Pietersburg - or you drove from Benoni to Daveton. You washed at Daveton according to your application. Then you got back into the car and you drove to Pietersburg. Skinard is at Pietersburg, close to Pietersburg. It's one of the districts there. It's not that massive an area. It can't be because Pietersburg itself is not that massive an area. You drive to get to Patrick - to David to meet Patrick Mohale - to meet Patrick at David Mohale's place. That's the instruction. It's a place you know. You know exactly where that is. You've been there before. Isn't that what you told us?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, that is so.

MR MALAN: Now why did you not go to David Mohale's stand? Why do you go to Poppie's stand in Skinard?

MR RAMAILA: Skinard is an area just before Mangaleng, the place I will be going to Patrick Mohale. Before you get to Mangaleng where Patrick was you would have to drive past Skinard.

MR MALAN: Yes. Why didn't you drive to Patrick Mohale? That's the question. It's not far. You have a car. You've driven the best part of 300 kilometres - 250 - 300 kilometres and now you stop a few kilometres short of Patrick Mohale's place. Why? Of the place where you're to meet him.

MR RAMAILA: The reason why I did not go ...(indistinct) it was during the day and in this place where I was going to go to it was common knowledge or it was known that none of them had a car. Now if I could drive my car there during the day there will be some informers who could alert the police and I may be apprehended with immediate effect.

&#9;Now there were you waited, where you got arrested, what did you do with the TV set? What did you do with the typewriter? What did you do with the guns? What did you do with the clothes?

MR RAMAILA: When I was arrested everything that I had that I took from the house was in the car except for the firearms because when they told me to alight from the car, the police that is, I kicked the gun under the car and it got hidden in some ash that had mounted there. I was taken.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the four firearms that you stole?

MR RAMAILA: The four firearms were in the trunk the boot of the car and when I was arrested they were in the boot of the car. The police confiscated those items on my arrest.

MR MALAN: Mr Ramaila, evidence was adduced at the trial that Poppie showed them the firearm. That the firearm had been buried somewhere. It was covered in plastic. Now did you give a firearm to Poppie to hide for you?

MR RAMAILA: I wesn't giving Poppie a firearm. I only asked for a plastic from her that there were bullets or ammunition that were lying loose in the car and I asked for a plastic so I may be able to get them into one plastic the bullets. This was at the time when I had this plastic right next to me when the police arrived. And as I was - saw the police coming I took that firearm and also ...(indistinct) and the place where I was parked there was some ash that had been discarded and when the police instructed me to get out, I now saw or found an opportunity to kick this plastic - this firearm underneath that ...(indistinct) that it mounted right next to where I was parked.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was Poppie when you did that?

MR RAMAILA: She was next to me.

CHAIRPERSON: She saw you doing it.

MR RAMAILA: Yes, she saw me.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the police who arrested you when you did that?

MR RAMAILA: They were standing in front of the vehicle and others were on the side of the car. And they had their firearms out.

MR MALAN: Not a single policeman held you by the shoulder when you were arrested.

MR RAMAILA: Well, they touched me after I'd gotten out of the car because they instructed me to do so. Get out of the car that is.

MR MALAN: You see, the evidence adduced at the trial was that Poppie said you gave her the gun wrapped in plastic with the instructions to put it - to hide it in Dina's - her sister's - home. Do you know Dina?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I do know her.

MR MALAN: Then she says that she did not take it to Dina's home, but she went away near a rubbish heap and she indeed buried this. And then the evidence further was and the warrant officer - I can't recall his name - Matsepe - went with her and they retrieved this firearm and they came back to the car. You couldn't have kicked it so far that they have to move off - and that's also part of the evidence - that you weren't in their presence when this firearm was retrieved. So you couldn't have kicked it under the car and it happened to fall in some ash. Who was with you in the car when you were arrested?

MR RAMAILA: When I was arrested the one who was right next to me was my relative. The one who was with in the car when I was still ...(indistinct) to get ready to leave to the place where this meeting.

MR MALAN: Ja, what's his name?

MR RAMAILA: I don't quite remember the name because it happened quite a long time ago ...(indistinct) But he's part of the family, my family that is.

MR MALAN: Is he a brother to Poppie?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

MR MALAN: What's his name?

MR RAMAILA: His name is an original name. I've forgotten it truly his name. I don't have the recollection to his name.

MR MALAN: Then these two Mozambiquans, when you met them were they still working on the farm of this Mr Rudman, the deceased - the victim?

MR RAMAILA: They were working there.

MR MALAN: So they weren't fired, they were simply abused and tortured you say.

MR RAMAILA: (No audible answer)

MR MALAN: The farmer didn't fire these Mozambiquans, he just treated them badly. Is that your evidence?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, at the time when I met them he had not fired them yet.

MR MALAN: Did you meet up with them again?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I did.

MR MALAN: Now when was the last time that you saw them?

MR RAMAILA: The last time I saw them was in 1991.

MR MALAN: Where?

MR RAMAILA: There at the farm.

MR MALAN: Mr Ramaila, were they not charged with you?

MR RAMAILA No, they were not charged with me.

MR MALAN: If you look at page 9 of the bundle there were four accused. Yourself, a certain Mr Jacob Pierry and then Santos Pilankose and Sipho Mashinene. And if I remember correctly you told us Sipho Nkosi and Sipho Mashinene were the names of the two Mozambiquans. 

CHAIRPERSON: Santos.

MR MALAN: Santos Nkosi and Sipho Mashinene. That's what you told us in your evidence in chief here. Are they the Mozambiquans?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, they are the ones.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you tell us that they weren't charged with you?

MR RAMAILA: (No audible answer)

CHAIRPERSON: Because they were charged with you.

MR RAMAILA: As soon as I got to Benoni where I was charged I found out that they were also arrested because of this thing.

CHAIRPERSON: Look, maybe you don't understand what I'm asking. All I'm asking is have you got an explanation why two minutes ago you told us that these Mozambiquans were not charged with you, when in fact they were you and you admit that now? Are you able to explain that to us? Not why they were arrested or who arrested them. Why you told us now that they were not charged with you when in fact you knew that they were? Have you got any explanation?

MR RAMAILA: Well, one thing I could explain or one explanation I could advance is that I discovered that they were also arrested for the same matter because when I got there I found out that they were suddenly accused as well.

CHAIRPERSON: And you saw them in court.

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: They were sitting next to you - or standing next to you.

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So why did you not tell us that they were charged with you? You see the case for the State was that all of you were involved in a robbery and a killing. They happened to be acquitted because none of them gave evidence. There were limited evidence which implicated you on which the judge decided to find you guilty. But the State's case were that you with the two Mozambiquans were involved in this robbery and killing. And you tell me that they were working for the farmer. Were they still working for the farmer on the day of the killing?

MR RAMAILA: They were not working on the day in question when I was going to go to the farm because they had already been fired and they were working in another place close by.

MR MALAN: How did you know that there were guns in this house of Rudman? Who told you that he had guns?

MR RAMAILA: I was told by Sipho Nkosi and Santos.

MR MALAN: How did they know that? Did they tell you?

MR RAMAILA: They were working there.

MR MALAN: Who is Jacobe Pierry?

MR RAMAILA: I don't know him. I don't know Jacob Pierry. I only saw him in the stand in court of law.

MR MALAN: Is he not family?

MR RAMAILA: No.

MR MALAN: He's not Poppie's brother?

MR RAMAILA: No.

MR MALAN: Did you speak to him?

MR RAMAILA: Well, yes I asked him as to how he was now part of this. He also said he didn't know. He just heard that he was also there present when this incident happened or took place.

MR MALAN: Did you speak to Nkosi Mashinene - to Santos and Sipho during that trial?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I did speak to them - with them.

MR MALAN: Did you ask them how it happened that they got involved in this trial?

MR RAMAILA: Well, I asked them how they were now involved in this trial and they told me that policemen suspected them and came to them and arrested them.

MR MALAN: Did they ask you anything about this trial, Santos and Sipho?

MR RAMAILA: Well, they did ask, but there was nothing much I told to them at the time.

MR MALAN: What did they ask you?

MR RAMAILA: They asked me as to whether it was me who told the police that they were also involved in this matter or what exactly.

CHAIRPERSON: Patrick Mohale, do you know where he is?

MR RAMAILA: Patrick Mohale, I know his whereabouts.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat that.

MR RAMAILA: Patrick Mohale in 1991, between 1991 and 1992 Patrick Mohale was found in Pretoria OD prison in the single cell and hanging there with his shoe laces. That's what I discovered or learnt about him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, have you got anymore questions?

MR MALAN: Sorry, may I just ask one further question. You say that you were given orders by Patrick Mohale to kill this Mr Rudman as per the slogan kill the farmer, kill the boer. That's what you said your application. Do you recall that?

MR RAMAILA: Very well I do remember.

MR MALAN: Is that correct? Did he tell you - did he give you the slogan?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, he did give me.

MR MALAN: Is this slogan a PAC slogan?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, it is a PAC slogan.

MR MALAN: I have no further questions, chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, have you got anymore questions.

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any questions?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) or just a few? I want to decide whether to adjourn now before you start questioning or not.

MS MTANGA: It's quite a few questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, then we'll adjourn for lunch then.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR RAMAILA: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Ramaila, I just have one question to ask you. The offence that you are applying for took place on the 7th of August 1991 and you were asked by the Committee when were you given the order to kill by Mr Patrick Mohale. When in 1991 did you get the order? You didn't answer that question. You didn't state exactly when. You just said you met him for the first time, but you didn't say when you met him for the first time.

MR RAMAILA: The order was given to me by him after I'd met with him. If I remember well it was in August.

MS MTANGA: On page 4 of your application, paragraph 11(b) you had been asked there to state the name and the address of the person who gave you the order and your response was that you were ordered to go and kill the farmer, kill the boer. Mr Patrick Mohale was the person who ordered you and you said he resides in Pretoria, address unknown, and then you gave the date 29th February 1991. The date you give there 29th February 1991, what was that date for?

MR RAMAILA: This is the date upon which we met myself and Patrick Mohale on the first time.

MS MTANGA: Is that the date when you first met him and he gave you the order? 

MR RAMAILA: Yes, that's the one.

MS MTANGA: You've just said that you - he gave you the order in August 1991. So which is correct? Is it February '91 or August '91?

MR RAMAILA: When we met myself and Patrick it would have been 1991. As for the order I went to him as I said the order was given to me in August. It was in August when I went to tell him now about the news about the farm.

MS MTANGA: My last question to you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What would you say if I told you there was no 29th of February 1991? It doesn't exist. What did you say?

MR RAMAILA: All I will say that there is such a date namely 29th February.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no such date. Except for a leap year February stops on the 28th of February.

MR RAMAILA: All what I'm saying is that this date is the one I remember upon which myself and Patrick Mohale met.

CHAIRPERSON: But you couldn't have met on that date. That date doesn't exist.

MR MALAN: Why do you remember that date?

MR RAMAILA: Well, I remember because before or prior to our meeting - or myself meeting with him there was a birthday in that week on the 26th of February. My brother's birthday who is my cousin's brother in actual fact. And I met with him exactly three days later.

MS MTANGA: Sorry. I asked you how long after you had met Patrick Mohale did you go and kill the deceased and you said you had met Patrick about two to three months before then. So how do you reconcile that with this date which you have given to us?

MR RAMAILA: This is what I said because it took quite some time before I brought this mission to fruition.

CHAIRPERSON: The 29th or the 28th of February or the 1st of March is not three months before you committed this murder. This murder was committed in August 1991. Can you explain that?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I can.

CHAIRPERSON: Please do. You have the opportunity to do so.

MR RAMAILA: Oh well, I beg your pardon. I didn't hear what you said.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us earlier that you'd met Patrick for the first time about two to three months before you committed this murder. Correct? Do you remember that?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I do remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yet in your application you say that you met him three days after your cousin's birthday which was on the 26th of February in 1991. Now even if we reconstruct the calender properly three days after the 26th would be the 1st of March 1991. Now from 1st of March to the 7th of August is not three months. It's more than three months. Yet you tell us that you met Patrick for the first time at most three months before you committed the murder. Can you explain that to us? I'm giving you an opportunity to explain it.

MR RAMAILA: Yes, as I said that I met with Patrick for the first time. Indeed we met for the very first time as I had already made mention of that fact. Then as we met for the second time now...

CHAIRPERSON: Look, maybe you don't understand what I'm saying. It seems to us that you're not telling us the truth when you say first that the first time you met Patrick was about three months before you committed the murder. In your written application you make mention of meeting Patrick albeit the first or last or some other time, at least on the 1st of March 1991, which is about five months before you committed the murder. Can you explain that? If you can't then say you can't explain it. 

MR RAMAILA: Well, I don't quite understand what exactly do you want my explanation on. 

CHAIRPERSON: Because it seems to us that you're not telling us the truth about when you first met Patrick. 

MR RAMAILA: Well, the truth I have mentioned is that I first met with Patrick before carrying this operaration. But what I remember is that I met with Patrick - or I met with Patrick rather in February.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Ramaila, I would like to put it to you that your operation is quite a unique operation from the operations that we have had from APLA people or people who ...(indistinct) they're APLA in that you had given an order to go and kill the farmer - a person on his farm. Patrick Mohale ordered you. It was a one man mission. You haven't given us any evidence that you were trained to - you were trained in the use of a firearm. And this is in total contrast to applications we've heard where murder is involved where there would be other people to assist. What do you say to this?

MR RAMAILA: Well, my comment in relation to what has been laid. I will simply state that I did that because at the time I had no information about APLA as to how it functioned and what happens when they function. I so desired at the time to be part of APLA so I could help in the severance of the struggle in relation to the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: You see what is being put to you is that it seemed to Ms Mtanga that when APLA sends people or wants to perform an operation they never used to send out one person. They used to send out a unit or part of a unit. It follows then the suggestion is that you were not part of an APLA operation because otherwise your commander would have sent you with somebody else or some other people who were also members of APLA and trained. What have you got to say about that?

MR RAMAILA: Well, what I will or could say is that as for Patrick after he had told me that - or recruited me to be an APLA soldier he did mention that there are missions or operations that I have to undertake as a test so to ensure that I was not some kind of an informer wanting to know much about them and carry information across. So for him to ensure that I'm not that kind of a person or I'm not such a person I should be able to undertake some operation as a form of test.

MR MALAN: Mr Ramaila, but you also told us that he told you everything about APLA and how they operated and what the mission was. Do you think an APLA cadre would inform a suspected or potential informer of such activities? Can you explain that?

MR RAMAILA: What I would explain is that there are many things that transpired around those years or rather happened around that time. And I so desired to be a soldier as well, APLA soldier. That is - this is why he advanced all the information which he did at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: But you had to prove yourself. APLA was not so reckless as to allow anybody into its ranks. You had to prove yourself. They had to know that you were trustworthy. That you weren't an impimpi. That's what's being put to you. They weren't going to send somebody that didn't - who hadn't proved himself on such a mission and tell him everything that they - how they operated because the police wanted to know. The police didn't know everything. 

MR RAMAILA: Well, that is so. That is the case, but I will still further say this about Patrick. He told me that as to what the organisation was fighting for and exactly their objectives in this fight of the Africans. These things that he said I should prove myself upon, my capability and also to ensure that I'm not there on another mission or having other ulterior agendas, but the sole objective is to be part and truly so loyal to the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: So you had not proved your loyalty yet. Is that - we agree on that. Not so?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I had not proved my loyalty there because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And yet you say that a commander of a structure of APLA told you certain things the way it operated before you prove your loyalty. Is that what you say?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mtanga.

MR MALAN: Sorry. Just before you proceed. Mr Ramaila, when I referred you to page 5 of the bundle, that letter you wrote or had written to us, I think you responded there by saying that Patrick told you you could kill - or Patrick told you about their objectives and on that day you realised there was something that you could do for these Mozambiquans. On Patrick telling you. That's what you wrote right at the bottom of page 5 of the bundle. Remember that I put it to you and that you confirmed it?

MR RAMAILA: ...(no audible answer)

MR MALAN: Do you hear the translation?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I heard.

MR MALAN: Do you remember that you confirmed this?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I do remember.

MR MALAN: I also put it to you. I asked you did Patrick instruct you on that same day that he told you go and kill the farmer, and your response was yes, on that first meeting he told you that you should kill the farmer. Remember that that was your answer?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I do.

MR MALAN: It now turns out that if your date on the application, the 29th of February or what would have been that date is correct, that it's more than five months later that you go and kill this farmer. That's common cause accepting that the date was correct. But the question is when did you first meet the Mozambiquans?

MR RAMAILA: The meeting with this Mozambiquans was - happened - or took place in 1991 I don't remember the particulars or the exact date. I won't be accurate.

MR MALAN: Was that before or after you had met with Patrick?

MR RAMAILA: That was after I had met with Patrick the first time.

MR MALAN: Well, if that is so I don't understand your letter at all because according to your letter you encountered these Mozambiquans. They were ill-treated, but you could do nothing. According to your letter you then meet with Patrick. He tells you about APLA and then you discover that at least that you could do something about the farmer, to quote you from your letter. Now did you meet the Mozambiquans before you met Patrick or after you had met Patrick?

MR RAMAILA: I met with them before meeting with Patrick the first time.

MR MALAN: Let me - I'll leave it there. Let me just ask you one other question. You say that you were a taxi driver at the time of this killing. You were driving a taxi.

MR RAMAILA: Yes. 

MR MALAN: Was it your own taxi or did you drive for someone else?

MR RAMAILA: It was not my taxi but I was hired to drive that taxi.

MR MALAN: You were hired to drive the taxi on a daily basis? Every day?

MR RAMAILA: Every day except for Sunday.

MR MALAN: Now when you did this operation, when you went to kill the farmer and when you drove off to Pietersburg, weren't you supposed to report for duty to drive the taxi the next morning?

MR RAMAILA: Well, I still had two weeks not working because there was something wrong with the taxi I was driving. This is why I was able to go to Pretoria before and be able to carry the mission and go to Pietersburg.

MR MALAN: Why would you have had two weeks?

MR RAMAILA: Well, the taxi I was driving was not in a good condition. It was quite an old vehicle, a Commando Chev. So there's something wrong with the bolts joining.

MR MALAN: Then lastly. How did you get to the farm where you killed this person? 

MR RAMAILA: Well, I entered the farm ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: No, how did you get there, not how did you enter. How did you get there from Benoni? Where were you driving the taxi, in Benoni? Where did you live? You lived in Daveton.

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Now how did you get from Daveton to the farm?

MR RAMAILA: Leaving my home where I was preparing for the upcoming operation that is attacking the farm, I went into a taxi.

MR MALAN: Did you go to the farm by taxi?

MR RAMAILA: Well, I went into a taxi and got off from the taxi and then walked to the farm.

MR MALAN: How did you know that you would be able to get away in the farmer's car?

MR RAMAILA: Well, I thought about it when I was already there that one thing I could use as my mode of transport will be this particular car, the vehicle.

MR MALAN: Right. If there was no car you would have had to walk again with the firearms and again board a taxi somewhere.

MR RAMAILA: Well, on that day in question these things happened at night. I would have walked after the mission or after the operation back to Daveton. There was no way I could have been stranded because it's not quite a distance from the farm to Daveton.

MR MALAN: But you would not have been able to carry the four firearms, the TV set, the typewriter and the two bags of clothes.

MR RAMAILA: Well, that is true. Because my intention was to go and search for arms and other things that I could deem fit for the furtherance of the mission of the organisation. Because of this I would have taken only the firearms and left the rest had it not been for the fact that there was no transport - there was transport.

MR MALAN: Just a last question. Are you sure that Santos Nkosi and Sipho Mashinene didn't help you in this operation in some way? Were they not the workers on the farm?

MR RAMAILA: Well, the truth is Santos en Sipho never assisted me in carrying this operation through.

MR MALAN: After the farmer had returned from putting out the fire that you started outside you say he entered the house and his three labourers also entered his house. And they left the door open and you followed in through the door and you hid yourself in the house in the bedroom.

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Now how long did the workers stay in the house?

MR RAMAILA: They were not there for long because they went into the hallway and into the kitchen. Just a few minutes later they left the house to go outside.

MR MALAN: Did you hear them talk?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I heard them talk.

MR MALAN: What did they discuss?

MR RAMAILA: I heard the workers only telling the boss, the white man that they were in the chicken huts outside. They don't know who set the fire in the grass outside. They had no - they could not account to that.

MR MALAN: Did the farmer abuse his workers, those three workers?

MR RAMAILA: I wouldn't know because I did not even know those particular workers. I only saw them when they were under the light that they were blacks. And I could also tell from the way they had been dressed that they were mere workers on the farm.

MR MALAN: No, that's not my question. I mean when you heard him talking to them, did he abuse them, did he shout at them, did he accuse them, did he hit them, did he torture them, did he force them to admit that they started the fire? He didn't do anything to them.

MR RAMAILA: Well, he was talking very loud in the first place, but because I did not understand him when he was talking to them I only heard the three answering back that they were not there. They don't know where that fire emanated from and they will therefore not be able to account to that incident.

MR MALAN: What language did they speak?

MR RAMAILA: He was speaking Afrikaans.

MR MALAN: And in what language did they answer him?

MR RAMAILA: They were answering back in Zulu.

MR MALAN: But he didn't speak Zulu.

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

MR MALAN: Did he - did the farmer speak Zulu?

MR RAMAILA: No, he was not speaking Zulu.

MR MALAN: Do you think he understood his workers when they replied to him in Zulu?

MR RAMAILA: That's what I think.

MS MTANGA: Thank you, Chairperson. Lastly, Mr Ramaila. I wish to put it to you that you killed Mr Rudman and robbed him of his items solely for personal gain and that you are just a criminal who is taking this Committee for a ride. What are you saying to this?

MR RAMAILA: Well, I will not agree to what you are saying. I did all what I did because I wanted to further the mission of the organisation.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson. Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

ADV SIGODI: How long did it take you when you walked from the - where the taxi dropped you to the farm? What is the distance?

MR RAMAILA: Well, that was quite a distance or a long distance. I will be able to give an estimation accurately so.

ADV SIGODI: How long did it take you to walk there? Twenty minutes, thirty minutes, one hour?

MR RAMAILA: It took me quite some time, but not very long time because I arrived on the farm before everyone retired in the house, that is go to bed.

ADV SIGODI: Did you know if the farmer lived alone or if he lived with somebody else?

MR RAMAILA: According to the information that was furnished to me I knew that he was only the - with the workers and the workers lived outside or stayed outside the main house in their respective bedrooms. I knew that he was the only one in the house and the wife was not even there as well as the kids.

ADV SIGODI: And who gave you this information?

MR RAMAILA: I got this information from Sipho and Santos.

ADV SIGODI: Why did they tell you this that he was staying all by himself?

MR RAMAILA: They were sort of explaining to me the situation because he was the person who was very violent, especially coming to his family or his wife to say. Often times he tortured, abused his family.

ADV SIGODI: Okay. Did they tell you - did they give you this information because they knew that you were going to kill him?

MR RAMAILA: Well, the did not know that I will kill him. They were only telling me that because I held them. I enlisted help to them at that particular time. Now I also still wanted to help them further, but then they opposed or they disagreed with me that - they refused me helping them all the way to drive them straight to the gate because they told me what will happen subsequently should the white man or the farmer see that they've been dropped by somebody else right at the gate.

ADV SIGODI: Lastly can you give - do you know how old Patrick Mohale was? How old was Patrick Mohale?

MR RAMAILA: I don't know his age.

ADV SIGODI: Was he older than you?

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Can you describe him? What were his features like?

MR RAMAILA: He was heavily built and light in complexion.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you're a member of the PAC.

MR RAMAILA: Yes, I am a member.

CHAIRPERSON: Your card?

MR RAMAILA: Well, I don't have the card here.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is it?

MR RAMAILA: For now.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the card?

MR RAMAILA: Well, I was awaiting the visit of the card.

CHAIRPERSON: You have never received a membership card?

MR RAMAILA: Well, I never had one as I already said that I'd just been recruited by Patrick Mohale.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm not talking about then. I'm talking about now. Where is your...

MR RAMAILA: As I said I was in the preparation of getting one. Patrick was the one - was the key person here as to my joining and my becoming a full member and being recognised also by being given a card. He was the key person behind this still.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever attend a PAC honorary membership meeting or branch meeting?

MR RAMAILA: Well, yes. I remember in 1990 I went to the meeting that was held in ...(indistinct) a meeting that is. 

CHAIRPERSON: Only one meeting you went to?

MR RAMAILA: Yes, just one meeting because I was a supporter and ...

CHAIRPERSON: How much did you pay for membership? MR RAMAILA: As I had already said earlier on that I was still awaiting information that could be forthcoming from Patrick as Patrick was the key person to this.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were never a member of PAC up till today.

MR RAMAILA: ...(no audible answer)

CHAIRPERSON: From 1990 till today, almost ten years, you've never been a member of the PAC.

MR RAMAILA: Well, I hear what you say, but I still maintain the fact that I was a supporter of PAC and I liked it so much.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, well you may have been a supporter up till now, but you were never a member.

MR RAMAILA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you find out that Patrick was dead?

MR RAMAILA: I only learnt that in 1992 that he's dead.

CHAIRPERSON: So 1992 he died.

MR RAMAILA: I wouldn't know. Well, he died in 1991 because I only learnt in 1992 that Patrick had since died in the OD prison. I only heard that it happened in 1991 although I don't know the facts relating to this.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you arrested?

MR RAMAILA: I was arrested on the 8th of August 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you on bail before you were sentenced?

MR RAMAILA: No, I was refused bail. I was never granted bail.

CHAIRPERSON: And since then you have never made an attempt to get formal membership of PAC.

MR RAMAILA: As I'm in prison the very prison I'm based in is maximum prison. Now there I had never had an opportunity to meet with other comrades from Daveton, seeing as I'm from Daveton, that they could now fulfil every detail with regards to the membership.

CHAIRPERSON: You see there's one thing that troubles me with your evidence and your political position and I want to put it to you. I put it to you in an attempt to give you an opportunity to deal with it. You were never a member of the PAC. It is a known fact that APLA is a military wing of PAC. Yet you come to testify here that a commander of APLA sent a person who is not even a member or the PAC on a mission and tells him all the secrets, if you want to call it secrets, of how APLA works. And that's not even to a formal member of the PAC. I have trouble with that because in previous cases we were told and I accepted that the PAC were never that reckless. Security in APLA was of importance. Have you got any comment about that?

MR RAMAILA: Well, the only thing that remains for me to say is that I'm the one who told Patrick that I will love to be an APLA member or PAC. This is what enabled him to furnish me with all the kind of information which he did.

CHAIRPERSON: &#9;You held the PAC so close to your heart and over a period of two years you never tried to get formal membership of PAC on your own. You only attended one branch meeting of this organisation that you love like this.

MR RAMAILA: Well, as I said it was at that time when I started bothering myself about being a member of PAC. Hence upon meeting with Patrick I informed him how much I loved this organisation and he was the key person to see that I get the full membership.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, he didn't. Up till 1992 you had not received this membership card or information that you were now a member of the PAC. 

&#9;Leave that - tell me - carry on. Why are you making application for amnesty?

MR RAMAILA: It is because I discovered that this Truth and Reconciliation Commission is about the truth and the forgiveness and reconciliation. This is why I burdened myself about following it up to this point in time. 

CHAIRPERSON: Who do you want to reconcile with?

MR RAMAILA: Please may you repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Who are you wanting to reconcile with?

MR RAMAILA: Well, my wish is to reconcile or was to reconcile with the people especially the kids of the late or the deceased, the wife. People like that. And as we all know that at the time and also the operation I carried resulted to one person being killed. Now this is my case and this is the people I would like to reconcile with because of what happened as a result of my actions.

CHAIRPERSON: So if they reconcile with you you don't mind then that the - to stay in jail to serve the sentence. As long as they reconcile with you and you are able to reconcile with them.

MR RAMAILA: Well, the most important thing here is that I am looking forward to get out of jail because the situation which I'm in is a very pathetic one because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sure.

MR RAMAILA: ... in 19.. - around '88 my father passed away and my mother is the only one who is in the house and she's not working. Not even a pension is she receiving. Now she has a problem with her feet or legs and only during the times when she feels better is she able to go work. And it takes about six months before she pays me a visit in prison. This is pathetic.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't that your main reason for making the application to get out your pathetic position - situation and that you are using the PAC and the Truth & Reconciliation Commission to attain that?

MR RAMAILA: Well, no that is not the case. This is the situation I'm only advancing to the Commission so they may as well be aware of it. This pertains my background. But in true fact all what I did, I did knowing very well that this is done by a person who has an objective or a certain objective or an aim for that matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you.

ADV SIGODI: May I just ask one question. Just one question. This PAC meeting which you attended in 1990 who was addressing it?

MR RAMAILA: The one permanent figure at that particular meeting that I knew was Maxwell Matsevanane.

ADV SIGODI: And where was this meeting held?

MR RAMAILA: The meeting was held in Twilight Section one of the sections in Khatlahong or Spruit. There was a party there. This is where that meeting took place.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you say a party?

MR RAMAILA: I said - or I beg your pardon. It was a park and kids will play there and this is where the meeting took place. I beg your pardon. It was the interpreter's fault. It was not projected clear.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. You're excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, that's the evidence of the applicant. 

CHAIRPERSON: Do you intend to call any witnesses?

MS MTANGA: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: There are no ...(intervention)

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson, they are not family members who have attended. As I've indicated before that we could not locate them.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that seems to bring us to the end of the evidence. Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any argument?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson. I will be brief, Chairperson, and to the point. Chairperson, I wouldn't like to waste the time of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you - I appreciate what your position is and I'm not going to expect you to embarrass yourself. 

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You do what you need to do.

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, I think there is enough evidence before the Committee which has been adduced which will enable the Committee to make a fair and a just decision in this matter. 

&#9;Having said that I would like just to highlight certain points regarding certain aspects with regard to the operations of APLA as I have indicated mostly I'm representing PAC and APLA cases.

&#9;According to them and everything operational structures that also myself it's the first time I must concede that I had one an incident of this nature. And also that there are different - they operate on a different platter. There is a repossession unit and they're also an offensive unit which they do totally different things.

&#9;So if a repossession unit or an offensive unit is going to do a work of the repossession unit an authority has to be given for that, they can't do both of them. So that's why I'm saying look, it was the first time but I wanted just to highlight that for the Committee to be able to reach a fair and a just decision on this matter. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for 10 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

INTERPRETER: Excuse me. Could I have your attention please. We have adjourned the hearings until tomorrow morning at nine thirty. 

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

