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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;8TH APRIL 1997&#9;&#9;

NAME:&#9;MADONI A MANTHATA

CASE:&#9;4004&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;

HELD AT:&#9;MESSINA

DAY 1

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Hearing opens with a hymn and a prayer.

DR RANDERA: Thank you Reverend Umbequa and Reverend Maklene. I would like to extend a warm welcome to all our witnesses who will be coming and, and talking this, this morning and this afternoon. I would also like to say that this is a Human Rights Violations hearing. It offers the opportunity for witnesses to come forward to talk about the Gross Human Rights Violations that happened in this area and remember we are looking at the period from 1960 to 1994. To-day we will be listening to stories from 1976 to 1993. I would like to welcome the Mayor of Messina, Mayor Abraham Lerule. If I can just ask him to come forward and say a few words please. Now, where is he going ? Maybe he should speak from here. Mayor Lerule ! Whilst the Mayor’s coming forward, perhaps I can just explain how these little boxes work. We have a full team of interpreters with us here this, this morning. On, ja, on, on, if you’re looking at the box, on the, on the left hand side there are channels. On Channel Two, it’s English, Channel Three is Venda and Channel Four is Peddie. If people haven’t got these boxes and want one, can we please ... Where are they available ? Are they available ? Are they available, available at the back of the hall? They’re, at the back of the hall. Okay. Mayor, just one more point before we proceed and allow you to speak. We have our statement takers here this morning for those people who have not made statements and wish to do so. He is in the first hall as we approach this building. So not the next one as you go out of this room but the one beyond that. If people want to make statements, our statement taker, Wele is present, so please take this opportunity. Thank you. Mayor Lerule, good morning and thank you for coming. We, we welcome you. You are going to give us a brief overview of, of your understanding of what happened in this area. Thank you very much. Just take your time.

MAYOR LERULE: Thank you very much. I would like to take this opportunity, as Mayor of Messina to welcome The Truth and Reconciliation Commission in Messina. The Commissioners from the TRC, other staff members from the TRC, media, members from the SAPS and SANDF, fellow Councillors and members from the public. It is my greatest honour and pleasure, as Mayor, to welcome you all. The role of the TRC, in terms of facilitating the process of reconciliation in our country is most welcomed. We all understand and agree that miracles happened when the new democracy was ushered by the elections of 1994 and subsequent local government elections of 1995 but we equally agree that we need to go through a process of reconciliation so that the atrocities of the past can be said and forgotten. Messina, as it is a border town was used as a passage by Cadres to come in and out of the country and we hope the coming here of the TRC will be able to unearth and try to assist on a number of unresolved issues, in terms of persons who went missing during those years. The problems of land mines which were placed in our various farms is an issue which we also need to address. The victims of those land mines, they need to come forward and as a community, as a nation, we need to recognize and agree and finally we need to forget the past and move forward to together. The TRC will go a long way to assist the victims of those land mines which were planted in our border and also in our farms so that at the end of the day, there will be peace and reconciliation. The unbannings of the organizations in February, 2, 1990 opened a way in Messina and also in the country in general where civic organizations, political organizations mushroomed. That process also happened in Messina. As civic leaders then, we organized campaigns and the compainers, the campaigns which we organized, mass actions, strikes, stay away’s, consumer boycotts and marches. They were problems which our people also suffered. 

&#9;The previous government used all machinery which was open at their disposal to deal with the upcoming of the civic committees. People were detained, people were tortured and others got killed out of the actions which were organized during those days and our belief is that the coming of the TRC will go a long way to eleviate the problems and the concerns where the victims of those actions which were organized at the civic movement suffered. The TRC will go a long way to assist that the perpetrators of those actions will come forward and indicate to our people and indicate to the country in general that they are sorry and they need to be forgiven. In conclusion, I would like to indicate that we all recognize the fact that the elections, the miracles that are, that is happening in our country need to be taken forward in the sense that we need to recognize the atrocities of the past and while we do that, we need to come forward and indicate as perpetrators and as victims, we need to come forward and accept what the perpetrators will be asking. That will go a long way to heal the wound, to heal the wounds in Messina in particular and also in our country in general and with these few words I would like to encourage all those who are going to give statements, to be free, to be fluent and also to explain what they suffered and the perpetrators, if they are here, I would like to encourage them, as Mayor of this town, to take the explanation from the victims and accept and ask for forgiveness. That is why the Truth Commission is here and at the end of the day we are going to hold hands, we are going to build one nation, we are going to build this country and we are going to take forward, the miracle that have been ushered by the new democracy, forward. I’d like to thank you all.

DR RANDERA: Thank you, Mayor Lerule. Can I please ask Mr Lebo Diborengwi to come forward and just read out the names of all the witnesses who will be appearing to-day ? Thank you very much, Sir.

MR DIBORENGWI: Good morning all of us. I’d like to read the names of the people who are going to give statements now, this morning. The first person who is going to give evidence or a statement is Humphry Chauke. &#9;The next person will be Betty Muleya. The next one will be Madoni Manthata and Mathiya Thelele will be the next person. Jeanet Ramakokovhu will be the next on the line, then follows Tshalo Moraba. The next person will be Sarah Sekhwama, followed by Fachima Nkundlane then Robert Neuvhirwa, followed by Wilson Nedambale and then lastly will be Samson Kodibona. Thank you very much.

DR RANDERA: Before I proceed can I introduce the panel here to-day. On the right, on my right hand side we have Miss Joyce Seroke who’s a Member of the Human Rights Violations Committee and is based at the Johannesburg Office of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. At the extreme left, Mr Tom Manthata who is a Member of the Reparations and Rehabilitation’s Committee and Mr Manthata is also from the Johnnesburg office. Next to me is Dr Russell Ally who is a Member of the Human Rights Violations Committee, also from Johannesburg and my name is Dr Fazel Randera. I’m also a Member of the Human Rights Violations Committee based in Johannesburg. 

&#9;I just want to take up a few points that, that the Mayor mentioned. Clearly, as we gather statements, we have the difficult task of deciding who should come to a public hearing. If my memory serves me right, we have about fifty statements from Messina so far and of those we had to take thirteen or fourteen and I want to take the opportunity to say to those people who are not going to be making a statement here to-day that your statement is as important as everybody else’s statement. That the same energy will be given to corroborating what you have said in your statement that will help us make a finding as far as the process of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission goes. 

We also want to say that if we look at the mandate of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, our responsibly is to try and develop as complete a picture of what happened in this area which contributed to these Gross Human Rights Violations and the Act is quite clear as to what the Gross Human Rights Violation is and it’s defined as, as, as a killing, an abduction, torture or severe ill-treatment. The Mayor mentioned the land mines that’s, that were set off and, and my reading of the history of this area tells me that in 1985, 1986 particularly a number of people were killed and severely injured from those land mine explosions. Now we tried on a number of occasions to contact some of the family members of the individuals who were, who are still alive from these incidents, to try and see whether they would be willing to make statements. For different reasons people were not willing to make statements and again I would, I would appeal to those people to come forward and make a statement if it’s still possible for them to do so. Messina also is an area that clearly saw a number of young people, especially post-1976 leave the country to go and join the Liberation Movement in exile and I’m sure many people in, in these communities played a role in assisting these individuals as they, as they passed through Messina. Now to-day you will hear some of that but again we have not had enough people coming forward to make statements. So again our message is clear, please, in order for us first of all to give you the opportunity to make you statement, please come forward and secondly in order for us to develop as complete a picture as possible, please come forward as well. 

&#9;Before I hand over to Miss Joyce Seroke who will be leading the first witness. O, sorry, all right. I just want to welcome Father Flemming. The Reverend Joseph Umbequa we introduced already and as well as Reverend Makene. Thank you for being here. Can I please then call the first witness. Humphrey Chauke has not arrived yet. Is that right ? I would like to welcome Betty Muleya. 

MISS SEROKE: Miriam. Miriam.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, the deponent is Miriam....... (no further recording on the rest if side A of the tape)... 

&#9;Can I please ask Mr Manthata to come forward. Mr Manthata, good morning. Welcome. I would just like to ask Miss Joyce Seroke to help you take the oath.

MISS SEROKE: Mr Manthata, I will request you to stand up. You will tell us that the story you’re going to tell us is going to be the truth and the truth only, and God help you.

MR MANTHATA: (sworn states)

DR ALLY: Mr Manthata, welcome and thank you for coming. I can see from your statement that you were one of the older residents of, of this area and that you have a long history of involvement and understanding. I see you give your date of birth as July 1908, so there’s obviously a long involvement and rich experience and what you’re going to really speak about is, is how, because of the political views which, which you held, you were victimized from early on but you’re going to be speaking about, particular events and, which led to an attempted banishment and the effects that this had on you. So I’m going to ask you if you will please just give us an account of, of, of these experiences which you have told us about in your statement.

MR MANTHATA: I came hear to tell you about something which disturbed me very much. It was said before and I was called by the police and I was asked about the letter which I didn’t know about. I did tell them that I did not know anything about that letter and I think the letter was telling about something which happened in Messina. When I was writing the letter, I think I wrote my name there and my address so that anybody who wanted to see me could find me easily. Mr Klopper told me that one old woman came to see him and he told me that I was the person that wrote the letter and I said, no, I did not know the letter. They left me for a long time and in 1973, I was called again. When I was called, the man who called me was called Strydom. He was a senior man who had many epaulettes. He came in with Mr Thelele and after he called my name. He said, who’s Manthata and I said, that’s me. He said you must know that here I arrest people and if I arrest you, I also send them to Mr Mandela in Robben Island and I said you can do that to me. When we got inside the house and after that he told me. He took out a letter in his hand. He said, do you know this letter ? And I said, Sir, I do not know that letter and I don’t want to talk about something I don’t know. Then he therefore , took out that letter and he brought out that letter. He said, do you know the law ? When I spoke to him, I said, I don’t know the law and then he stood up. I’m going to call Klopper and then he went out to call Klopper and he came to me. He says, this person says he doesn’t know the law. Klopper also could not tell me that, his story and after that they said to me, you say you don’t know law and he said he was going to form an Agenda and another man came and brought the law book and I asked him if he could borrow me this law so that I could understand my rights and he refused. I then requested that book again and also the interpreter told him. He was the interpreter for Klopper and they said, this man has spoken a lot and thereafter, in another day when we formed the Advisory Board he brought this book again and I said to him, borrow me this book and he refused and I said, if this person is refusing to give you this book, would you take it by force. That’s how things were and now, and that gentleman or he is the one who asked Klopper and thereafter I said I bring the evidence. I said I like Klopper. I do not want to hide anything, I’d like to speak the truth. When I said, I like him, because he came to my house and he took, he told that guy and he agreed and he gave me a dove and I again gave him a present, as a dove and he took it to his home. He came back to my house again and I gave him a chicken as a present and he took it to his home again. I asked him if he liked it. He said yes and I really to asked him, if I was a bad person, would I really give him a present ? Why would I do that? 

&#9;Then the, this guy who was sent from Pietersberg, who was known as Strydom in Pietersberg. I’m not sure about the name. This guy came to me and he told me that he understood my story and he told me that he’ll try to go and tell his seniors. What surprised me, was that this guy was not taking any statements down and I suspected that he was the person who was not delivering the messages properly. He said to me, I could go home and he released me. 

DR ALLY: Mr Manthata, one of the events that you, you speak about in your statement which you say led to this in, attention the police being interested in you and questioning you, was a strike that you speak about at a, at the Messina mining fields. That’s what you say in your statement. I was involved in a strike at Messina mining fields and this is round about 1973. Could you just tell us a little bit about this strike and, and what the, what the consequences of this strike were ? 

MR MANTHATA: That strike was, we formed, we started striking at the mining fields in 1943. Major John, our Manager. I was in Cambell mine. He told the employees that, when we, we must take our tickets to him so that he can give us money so he started not giving people money, even if they submitted the tickets to him. He ignored the employees and people got angry and took all their tickets back to his office. Later, the people realized that this man was ignoring them. They were people from Njasaland. They went aside to have a caucus and they discussed, they decided that they were not going to work the following day. We boycotted the following day and these people decided that they would beat anybody who was going to work that day. Most people didn’t go to work that day and later we were sitting outside. People were called to the camp and some men came to us and one of the guys was, was one of those who we were told that he was beating people up in Pretoria. He came with lots of men and they started arresting people. One of the policemen came to me and looked at, at me but he, he’d, he ignored me later. 

&#9;Later when they were arresting people, our big boss he was, was ignoring me, because I used to disturb him a lot and shout to him, because he, he didn’t want me next to him. He actually wanted to arrest me. He wanted me to be arrested. God told me that I must leave that place immediately. I left and later on they were arresting everybody. They arrested about a hundred people and they took them to Louis Trichardt. 

&#9;There was a man called Alfuous Madiba. He was a communist. He was a real communist. He came to us with other three men in 1938 and they were telling us about politics. Later when we were discussing this matters, Alfuous when he arrived late, he told me that he tried to ask for a lift from those men. They couldn’t give us a lift. He asked me where, where did these people go to and I told him that they were arrested. They were taken to Louis Trichardt and he said he’ll go there to see them. Actually, Major John, when he wanted to arrest me, he read something on Guardian and he wanted me to get arrested, because I said something on that newspaper and he asked me at some stage that, where was I taking all those newspapers and I told him, they were not mine, they were from Dan and it, I did, do it, they did not belong to me. That’s how he started to hate me. Alfuous went there to, to, to buy food and bread for those people who were arrested. This Alfuous Madiba is late. I actually don’t know where he ended up. Thank you.

DR ALLY: Thank you, Mr Manthata. Just, just one last question and if you could just very briefly tell us a, a little bit about your involvement in what describe as the Messina Advisory Board and you say that this also let to the police focusing their attention on you, visiting your house, threatening to arrest you. Can you tell us about this Messina Advisory Board. What it did and, and what your role in it was ?

MR MANTHATA: I was a member of the Advisory Board. As I was a member of the Advisory Board I was leading the God’s nation. I didn’t want the God’s nation to be misled. I wanted them to have a true life. The men I used to work with, they were not good people to me. They used to fight me and they used to report me to the detectives and they reported that I was a communist. When they said I was a communist, it was then that the Sergeant started searching me and took all my papers but they didn’t get anything. They didn’t get anything. The second time when he came with another Sergeant, Sergeant Heys, when he came to me, they searched again they searched. They took some papers that were written Sesotho but they couldn’t read in Sesotho. They took those papers and said we’re going to take them away and ask them to read them ahead and we’ll bring them back to you later on. After that the detectives came. There were lots of detectives who came. I saw a lot of people coming to my house and they said they were detectives and they were, and they searching and they came to me. They said they’d come to search and I said, go ahead and search. When they came, they were with I think it’s Mr Morotoba. When they searched they had a stick which they were sticking the papers with and I had put it away and he said, is this thing for holding a gun ? I said, no, I’m not involved in those kind of things but they continued to search. They failed because they didn’t find anything. They were fighting with me and they said I was not telling the truth and I was telling the truth and I was prepared to fight for the truth and to die for the God’s nation. I cannot just do anything for myself. I was working for the God’s nation and they said I must speak the truth. Thank you.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much Mr Manthata. That’s all.

MR MANTHATA: Thank you.

MISS SEROKE: Mr Manthata, when you were banned and you said you didn’t want to leave, what happened ? And when you refused to go when you were banished, what did they say to you ?

MR MANTHATA: At that time, there was an officer which I really didn’t like. When he came to visit people, they wouldn’t even great him according to the old law. And now, it was the difficulty that I face from those White people, because at times, they would fight me. There’s a child who came to me, who said, who want, whom I wanted to register. They refused to register my child. Other people used to be able to register their children but with me, they were fighting me, because of the truth. I didn’t want them to trouble other people and it was very, very difficult. They wanted to banish me, to chase me away but they failed. When I came here in Messina, I came in Messina in 1919. I was only about twelve years. Yes, I was about twelve years. I came when I was a very young boy and I didn’t even have a home when I came here in Messina. Now, these foreigners came to harass me, Auret. And Auret didn’t want to allow people here and this police came to me and the office people are the ones who used to harass me but because of God they eventually had to give up. Some of them went away. Some of them died and some of them are still alive but God is still keeping me alive to be on earth. Thank you.

MISS SEROKE: We thank you N’tate. 

MR MANTHATA: (Commission) N’tate, you spoke about a letter when you started. What did this letter say ?

MR MANTHATA: (Witness) I do not know what this letter said. I wouldn’t know because I didn’t say they must write this letter to me but they just produced this letter and said, here is the letter. I said I did not want to be involved in this letter because I didn’t write, the letter and I had never written any letter. If I write a letter, I write my own name and write the address but that letter I didn’t know where it had come from and I told them I didn’t know that letter so he took that letter, straight and took that letter and he folded it and put it in his pocket.

MR MANTHATA: (Commission) So they didn’t read this letter to you ?

MR MANTHATA: (Witness) No, they didn’t read this letter to me. It was their secret that they were trying to trick me with but they failed, because they were saying I was teaching people. It’s only teachers who teach children to read but I also taught the people the truth what was their right.

MR MANTHATA: (Commission) During that time when you were a member of the Advisory Board, what were you doing for people ?

MR MANTHATA: (Witness) I used to do a lot of things. God advised me to help these people. That is why I’m still alive to-day and all, most of those people are dead but I’m still alive but I think God put me there to solve the problems that people had and that they must have a better life. That’s what I think.

MR MANTHATA: (Commission) What were the problems that the Messina people had during those times ?

MR MANTHATA: (Witness) There were lots and lots of problems. We used to fight. When the compound people who used to come to Nancefield, they used to give them little papers instructing them what to do and if they didn’t have these papers, the police would, would arrest them. So we fought that, that when people go ho, go to their homes or go to Nancefield, they shouldn’t be given permits. So we used to tell those people. We told them we no longer want this little pieces of papers and permits. So we helped those compound people quite a lot in Nancefield. There were lots of problems. Sometimes people would come there. Before 9 o’clock there would be police all over there with the dogs. They would let the dogs on people to bite them. I don’t know that time. I was still as escort. When I was acting escort, they brought a person from Munjasa who was bitten by a dog and my heart was very sore. I then realized that they were very cruel to people. They used to let dogs on people to be bitten by dogs. There were a lot of people who were bitten by dogs and I said to Nancefield and Messina people, they will not tell the truth. It was scared. I don’t know why are those people scared, because I think we must go ahead and those who want to stay behind will stay behind.

MR MANTHATA: (Commission) If you could just answer briefly. Where you ever arrested ?

MR MANTHATA: (Witness) Yes, I was arrested. They said I wasn’t working. It was because of the Advisory Board. I was very active in the Advisory Board but I wasn’t employed and my sister’s child was working at the office. So they said, this person must earn pension in 1966. That’s when I earned a pension and then those problems that I have eventually were relieved. Thank you.

DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata, just a few more questions. This Nancefield Advisory Board that you’re talking about. Was it an organization that came out of the people or was it something that was created by the local Council in this area ?

MR MANTHATA: This Advisory Board. Before this Advisory Board we had a Residents Association. With another man, we established this and with a another man who was a Reverend in the Gospel Church and I realized that this man was powerful when we started this job together. We used to fight these things together and other elderly people joined this Residents Association and then they agreed with us and they were by us so that they would solve all those many problem. After that, this Advisory Board was only established much later, in 1939 it was in November. That’s when the Advisory Board started. Before it there was no White person. There were only Black people and Mr Goosen was the first to be the superintendent of the community.

DR RANDERA: So it was set up by, by the Council in this area, rather than from the community itself. Am I right ?

MR MANTHATA: I didn’t understand.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, Sir. 

MR MANTHATA: We used to advise the God’s nation.

DR RANDERA: Can you tell me, this question of banishment. Did that happen to other members of the Advisory Board as well or was it only you and a few others ?

MR MANTHATA: I didn’t understand well your question.

DR RANDERA: If you were asked by Mr Klopper to come in and told to leave Messina. Was that happening, did that happen to other members of the Advisory Board or was it only to you ?

MR MANTHATA: It was me. It was especially me. I could say it was only me and other people must speak for themselves. This Advisory Board. He used to have criminals who were working for White people, because I used to cross-question them. I would ask questions to white people. I would, I would then have to find out from them before I could treat them, because I wanted to understand their question or I mean I wanted to understand where they came from and what was their backgrounds so I would ask and then I would have now trap them when they answered me. That’s how I used to treat them. So these other people were fighting me, because if you want to talk about , issues you used to ask questions, said no, that’s how God gave me, because I used to trap them. I used to trap them completely and then I would explain to them, and say these are the issues and they couldn’t go ahead, the couldn’t give me any answers.

DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata, was it common in those days, we’re talking about 1973 now. Was it common in those days where, if the police or other members of authority did not like what, what others were doing, they would just banish them to some other area ?

MR MANTHATA: In the Nancefield community, the Nancefield Municipal boss, before this Committee was established it was started by the Health Committee. The Chairperson was an elderly person who was Mr Gemeri, who used to be the owner of the mine. After that there was this Advisory Board. There were three people who used to be elected by the community. I’m sure you, you can, you in Pretoria can search and find who these people were but others were appointed by the White people, by the Municipal people and these are the three people. Those are the people who used to fight me. Those who were appointed by the Municipal. They were just like real big issues because God gave me life, they didn’t succeed. Others even used to go to Witch doctors to fight against me and I wanted, I asked which doctor would, would make this person mad? That’s what they were trying to do, to make me mad but other people used to come and report this thing to me and eventually managed to make me mad in 1949 but God helped me. They did not succeed and my ancestors also helped me so they didn’t succeed to make me mad. Old people said, I was very clear in what I was saying and at, later on at the station the, the Black toilet was in a bad condition. There was a waiting room and I went to the other waiting room and, and then they built a better waiting room at the station. At, at the platform. When I arrived at the platform and then they asked, then I, they built this platform, station platform, because I told them that the other people are disabled. They couldn’t get into the train if there was no platform and the hospital, there were metal beds that people couldn’t use them properly and I said there must be beds that were in good condition. Sick people could not sleep on beds that were in bad condition and indeed they did provide some new beds for the hospital and this wa by Mr Katz who was our chairman. They sold the old beds at R1.... (tape ended) three coaches and the Whites had their own coach and we Black people were not allowed to get into the other coaches for the White people and I was together with another man and we were waiting there and this other old man said, get inside, get inside. You can’t have this young boy get in. I said sit down and not, sit down let us get in and this old man said, I’m not talking to you. I said whoever you’re speaking to, you’re also speaking to me, because I’m also a Black person. That White man called me and there were lots of White men around me and they wanted to question me. When I got into the room they said to me, Alfuous, and I said, Sir and he he said to me do you know that there is a person who must control all these people and he said to me, next time when there’s, there’s a problem you must come to me. You must not talk to anybody else. You must come and report things to me. He went to report me to his senior and they discussed about me and there were other White people who were favouring Black people but others hated us and they discussed and they come up with the decision that Black people should use three coaches and the White people two and they said to me, they read in a paper and they informed people that they will prepare three coaches for Black people and two for Whites and they did arrange that.

DR RANDERA: Mr Manthata, thank you. Mr Manthata, I have no further questions. Thank you for coming here to-day to, to help us understand what happened to you and what happened in this area in that, in that particular period that you’re talking about. I must say that despite all the difficulties that, and the experiences you’ve had, age has treated you very well. I’m mean for a ninety, almost a ninety year old young man, you are doing extremely well. Thank you very much for coming to-day. 

MR MANTHATA: Thank you very much. 

 

 

 

 

