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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

AMNESTY HEARING

HELD AT: BLOEMFONTEIN&#9;

DATE:&#9; 19TH JANUARY 1988

NAME: &#9; MR NGO AND MR MOTSAMAI

DAY 1&#9;&#9;

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: The delay in commencing proceedings this morning has been due a difficulty that has arisen with regard to Mr Stander’s position as representing certain of the victims.

&#9;Mr Stander, would you like to explain what the position is at the present time?

MR STANDER: Chairperson, thank you very much. It is the case that the reason for the delay this morning was because of the fact that there was a bit of a dispute, but let’s rather call it a difference of opinion between myself and the representative of the Truth Commission, with regard to the amount of my claim to which I am entitled to where the representative of the Truth Commission is not willing to pay out this claim.

&#9;And if one looks at the guidelines of the legal aid and with regard to the Truth Commission situation, I have already told you this morning that I have not been remunerated in any way and the position at present Chairperson, is that I am not able to make my services available to the people who are now prejudiced in this whole incident because I’m not going to be remunerated as I would have thought.

&#9;But I don’t have any other choice than to inform that in the first instance, I’m sorry for the delay that this has caused but this is the situation that we have tried to sort out since October but even up to today, it has not been sorted out and therefore I have no other choice than to withdraw myself as the attorney on record on behalf of all the people that I represent.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, who are they and who is present today?

MR STANDER: Chairperson, they sit at the back of the court. Shadrack Teku Oliphant is present today, Mr Matthews - yes, it’s Matthews Mzuzwana, and then we also have two other people here - they are also at the back of the court, that’s Mr Molefe and another person and at the moment I can’t recall the name. They are - it is available, they are available in the hall.

CHAIRPERSON: So there are four of them here today? The others had been notified but are not present I understand.

MR STANDER: Yes, that is the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please ask the victims to stand up. Could one of them - have you heard what your attorney has said?

VICTIMS: Yes, M’Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: And he is withdrawing as your attorney - you’ve heard that?

INTERPRETER: The victims are nodding their heads.

CHAIRPERSON: And I understand that you have been told that the leader of evidence, Mr Brink, is prepared to act on your behalf.

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, who is going to represent you?

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: The reason why Mr Stander cannot represent you, is that the Legal Aid Board is not prepared to pay him on the basis which he thinks he’s entitled to be paid, so he’s not prepared to act for you, he has told us that. He is no longer going to act for you. I take it that you can’t afford to pay him?

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Can you afford to pay him?

VICTIMS: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Legal Aid Board is not prepared to pay him what he wants so he is not going to act any further, that is in fact your position.

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: Pardon?

VICTIMS: We are not ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: You are not what?

VICTIMS: We are not going to be represented in this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: You have been offered representation by Mr Brink, which will cost you nothing.

VICTIMS: But I think the TRC should have asked: are we satisfied about what will the ...(inaudible), whether are we satisfied or not.

CHAIRPERSON: You will have no say in the matter, that is a matter between him and the Legal Aid Board. He has chosen to withdraw, you cannot force him to continue if he is not satisfied with the payment that he has been offered.

VICTIMS: So, now ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: You want to withdraw? Very well.

VICTIMS: Yes, we withdraw.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may I suggest that perhaps we ask these people before they leave, to give us their names so that we know exactly who they are.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. The people who’ve decided they’re going to withdraw, is that Mr Oliphant? They apparently don’t want to talk, can they hear me? - they’ve taken off their earphones.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, for the help of the Committee, I’ll get the names outside and I’ll come and tell the Committee what the names are.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. The second question that must be decided now, is the question of Mr Mthembu. 

&#9;What is your position Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chair, I’m also withdrawing on behalf of Ngo and Motsamai.

CHAIRPERSON: Are the applicants here?

MR MTHEMBU: They are here Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps they better come and sit in their proper places.

MR BRINK: Mr Chair, may I just interrupt? I was asked earlier by all those representing various parties, whether or not you’d allow us to remove our jackets - there appears to be no air-conditioning, it’s very warm.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

&#9;Mr Ngo, have you heard that Mr Mthembu has said he’s withdrawing as your attorney?

MR NGO: Yes, I heard M’Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: And have you appointed someone else to act on your behalf?

MR NGO: That’s correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you agree that Mr Mthembu should be allowed to withdraw?

MR NGO: That’s correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, was it only Mr Ngo, or is it Mr Motsamai as well?

MR MTHEMBU: As well as Motsamai Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Motsamai, do you also know that?

MR MOTSAMAI: I know that Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also agree to it?

MR MOTSAMAI: I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, you are excused from further attendance.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair.

MR MTHEMBU EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, the names of men are Shadrack Oliphant, Matthews Mzuzwana, Tandi Jacobs, Khuzane Dwayi ...(intervention)

JUDGE NGOEPE: Repeat that please.

MR STANDER: Khuzane Dwayi. Apparently Tandi Jacobs - the last fee, there’s no affidavits before the Committee as thus far.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you - Matthew, what is Matthew’s surname?

MR STANDER: Mzuzwana.

CHAIRPERSON: He has filed an affidavit?

MR STANDER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Teko Oliphant, Matthews Mzuzwana and Molefe had filed affidavits?

MR STANDER: That’s it.

CHAIRPERSON: And the others are Jacobs and Khuzane Jwayi?

MR STANDER: And the last one is Annie Phahlane.

CHAIRPERSON: There were only five of them there?

MR STANDER: Yes, that’s five. There’s Shadrack Oliphant, the first one and Mzuzwana second, Jacobs, third, Jwayi fourth and Phahlane, fifth.

CHAIRPERSON: What about Molefe?

MR STANDER: I’m sorry, Molefe was not - he was here this morning ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But he’s not here now?

MR STANDER: Yes, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR STANDER: Can I ask to be excused please?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly. Sorry, I just remembered that we were asked - as you may recollect, that where names were used, we would spell them out. Could you perhaps spell those last two for the benefit of the interpreters and for the recorders?

MR STANDER: The second last one is Khuzane - K-h-u-z-a-n-e J-w-a-y-i and Annie Phahlane - A-n-n-i-e P-h-a-h-l-a-n-e. 

MR STANDER EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MEMANI: Mr Chair, maybe I’d like to say something.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR MEMANI: The withdrawal of the victims complicates matters a bit for us. In a way we have an interest in their evidence which is independent of whether they are victims ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it’s open to you ...(intervention)

MR MEMANI: You will recall that the various policemen implicated have objected to the applications of the applicants and in their objections they have said that certain events have not occurred to the people who were appearing before you as victims. We had an interest in their evidence and we cannot compel them to remain as victims, however ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You’d could serve them with subpoenas?

MR MEMANI: No, M’Lord, it was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And call them as witnesses.

MR MEMANI: That is correct M’Lord. Now, whilst they’re here we would like an opportunity to speak to them and hear if they are not prepared to testify on the basis of corroborating our versions.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, haven’t you been aware of the discussions that have taken place all morning about Mr Stander’s position?

MR MEMANI: I have been aware M’Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: But why didn’t you do something about it then?

MR MEMANI: M’Lord, it was never contemplated that they would withdraw abruptly. I don’t you expected the witnesses themselves - the victims, to withdraw. The expectation was that they were going remain as victims and be represented under the auspices of the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, they have now left.

MR MEMANI: I believe that they may still be outside M’Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want a five minute adjournment?

MR MEMANI: That is correct M’Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: We’ll allow you a five minute adjournment now to see if they’re still here, could you tell us when you’ve spoken to them?

MR MEMANI: That is so.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Have you anything to report?

MR MEMANI: Yes, M’Lord. We have spoken to the victims, the victims have chosen to remain as victims in these proceedings and they wish to be represented by Mr Mthembu - as victims. That they will therefore have to - they also wish to apply for Legal Aid Board, on the basis that Mr Mthembu will represent them.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is he?

MR MEMANI: He was outside a few minutes ago, I don’t know if the victims have spoken to him about their desire to be represented by him.

CHAIRPERSON: So, there’s not indication that he has agreed?

MR MEMANI: Well, M’Lord, I don’t think that he will have difficulty with agreeing to represent them.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Mr Memani, I’m not so sure - where is Mr Mthembu?

MR MEMANI: He is outside here M’Lord, I can send the attorney for him.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Memani, I don’t know whether they’ve - you’ve considered, or whether he had the opportunity to consider all the consequences of this. I don’t know whether they may be a conflict of interest between the victims and the applicants and he’s acted for the applicants up to now - okay, he’s with withdrawn, but I think at least he should apply his mind to it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, we’ve just been told that the victims have said they will continue and they now want you to act for them. I don’t know if they’ve spoken to you but Mr de Jager has just raised the very cogent point, that there may be a very grave conflict. You have up to now, acted for the applicants and taken instructions from them and obtained information from them, it might b completely improper for you to act for the victims.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chair, I do agree with you. I also do foresee a conflict in that I have acted for Mr Motsamai and Ngo previously and I did consult with them and now if I have to act for the victims, I also foresee a conflict.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would not ...(intervention)

MR MTHEMBU: I don’t think it would be proper under the circumstances.

CHAIRPERSON: I don’t know whether the victims heard that, but Mr Mthembu quite properly in my view, foresees the possibility of a conflict and is not prepared to act for them - a conflict of interests and information, do you understand what I’m saying to you and what he said?

&#9;Could you explain to them?

JUDGE NGOEPE: Let me try to explain in Sotho, although I’m not proficient in Sotho, but you will understand. I will start from the beginning about Mr Stander’s case. You were here this morning - are you?

VICTIMS: Yes.

JUDGE NGOEPE: You understood that Mr Stander wanted the Truth Commission to pay, or let me say - the Truth Commission helps people like you to pay for your legal fees, it’s all over the country. The Truth Commission says it pays a certain amount per day and Mr Stander wanted the Truth Commission to pay higher. The Truth Commission said: "We cannot pay higher because all our lawyers would demand that amount as we pay per individual case".

&#9;Mr Stander said: "If you are not going to pay me the amount I’ve demanded, it is better for me to withdraw because the Truth Commission cannot pay that amount because it will cause problems - that lawyers all over the country would demand that amount Mr Stander was looking for.

&#9;The Truth Commission has it’s own layers who are permanent employees of the Truth Commission, who help victims without lawyers. The other one is Mr Mpshe, the other one is Mr Brink and they are employed by the Truth Commission for victims who come here without lawyers will be helped by them. 

&#9;In other cases you’d find that there are victims who have lawyers but don’t have money, therefore the Truth Commission will be able to pay that lawyer but that lawyer should accept the money or the amount paid by the Truth Commission. Mr Stander didn’t agree with that part of payment, then we told you that lawyers who are employed by the Truth Commission would be able to represent you, then you said you don’t want that lawyer.

&#9;Again after that, you said you are withdrawing, then you spoke to Mr Mthembu. Mr Mthembu was representing Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai and he’s afraid that if he’s going to represent you, further down the evidence of the two applicants will be in accord with your evidence and in that case there will be a problem of conflict of interest, do you understand? 

&#9;I’m not deciding on your behalf. If you want your evidence to be in front of this Committee, it would be better to use the lawyers who are hired by the Truth Commission. They go to all the sittings around the country to represent victims like you who are not able to afford lawyers. If you want that lawyer to represent you, it’s up to you. 

&#9;You should understand why Mr Stander withdrew - the money he wanted or he claimed was too much and the Truth Commission was not able to pay. If the Truth Commission agreed to pay that amount to Mr Stander, it would create some problems in the future because all of them - all lawyers who are representing victims, should be paid equal amounts. 

&#9;What do you think now? Do you want to ask something? Is there anything you want to ask - to know, you want to ask for clarity?

VICTIMS: (No English translation)

JUDGE NGOEPE: Some of these lawyers went to other cases but this one has always been around - present in this case, so you won’t be able to start with somebody new who has not been here to listen to this case - he does not know what happened before.

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker is not at the microphone.

JUDGE NGOEPE: (No English translation)

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

JUDGE NGOEPE: Sorry?

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

JUDGE NGOEPE: Yes. Those who are present - no problem, we will start with them if they are willing to give evidence, but you should understand that Mr Brink is here to work. You understand his duty? 

&#9;Yes, Mr Brink is one of the people who have been hired by the TRC and he’s paid by the TRC but the TRC is prepared to pay for other lawyers but only if they agree to the amount set by the TRC. Now, do you agree to be represented by Mr Brink? Do you want us to adjourn for a few minutes so that you can decide?

VICTIMS: (inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The present speaker is not at the microphone.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Is what I’m saying put across to them?. May I just - the gentleman, yes?

WITNESSES: ...[inaudible]

ADV DE JAGER: I think it’s not coming through the record, what they’re saying and I don’t know whether it should be on record, if so we’ll have to arrange for a microphone please.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Just put your earphones on, those of you who cannot understand English. You, the gentleman that has been putting questions across for clarification has conveyed - I don’t know if this is on behalf of everyone of you. He had conveyed that - after the explanation that I’ve just given, he has conveyed that they had not properly understood the situation and that they would rather make use of Mr Brink, they want to make use of Mr Brink. I think that is the position and I’ll stop here to converse with the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I propose that we adjourn till 2 o’clock and they will now have an opportunity of discussing the matter with Mr Brink, of satisfying themselves what they want to do. Would that suit them? Right.

&#9;Before we adjourn, for the sake of the clarity of the record, I would like to place on record that Mr Stander came to see us in chambers with other counsel this morning and he made us aware of the problems that were facing him and the fact that he might have to withdraw. 

&#9;Thereafter both he and Mr Brink communicated with those responsible for arranging legal aid through the TRC head office in Cape Town. There were discussions between the interested parties and a final figure was arrived at which did not suit Mr Stander, which he rejected. 

&#9;And it was thereafter that he had - well, while that was going on, we understand that he also had discussions with the victims his clients and Mr Brink was also present at some of these discussions so they were aware of what was taking place so they may not have been aware of the precise reason why Mr Stander wished to withdraw.

&#9;We propose now to adjourn until 2 o’clock and request Mr Brink, that you talk to the victims and see if we can reach some clarity. Mr Mthembu, we appreciate your position entirely. It would be I think, very awkward for you having acted for some time for one of the parties and now to be acting for his victims who might want to put a somewhat different complexity on what - complexion on what happened and I think that you can’t be expected to put yourself in that position. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION: Mr Stander, I see you are with us again, could you kindly tell us what the position is?

MR STANDER: Thank you very much, I am back. There was an agreement which was reached between myself and the representative of the TRC Commission. The matter has been solved and I’m prepared and I ask to be allowed to act on behalf of the so-called victims, I’m ready to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: And the victims agree to that do they?

MR STANDER: That’s correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And there are no reservations or if’s or but’s, you are now ready to act for them?

MR STANDER: That’s correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So perhaps we can at last start doing something today. Carry on.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I will then continue and call Mr Oliphant to the witness stand.

SHADRACK TEKU OLIPHANT: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Oliphant, in front of you you will see that there are two bundles of documents, affidavits, the one is marked number one and the other one number two. I would like you to look at number 2, the first affidavit contained therein. Do you have it in front of you?

MR OLIPHANT: Yes.

MR STANDER: In the affidavit - without going into detail, you say that you were a victim in the application for amnesty of Mr Ngo and Motsamai, is that correct?

MR OLIPHANT: That’s correct.

MR STANDER: You say further that you had serious bodily injuries as a results of the actions of the security police because you were tortured, is that correct?

MR OLIPHANT: That’s correct.

MR STANDER: Is it also correct that the torture was done in order to confirm your activities in the ANC?

MR OLIPHANT: That’s correct.

MR STANDER: In the last paragraph, excuse me, the second last paragraph, you say that the members of the South African police or rather the security police who participated in your abuse or torture were Captain du Plooy ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I do not think that - there are certain aspects which one shouldn’t ask in such a leading manner.

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, the problem I have is that this witness doesn’t read very well and it’s based on this that I am doing this.

ADV DE JAGER: That’s my problem. If he doesn’t read so well then he should depend on his memory to say who detained him.

MR STANDER: I will continue in this way, thank you.

&#9;Mr Oliphant, will you please tell us which members of the security police participated, as you can recall, in this?

MR OLIPHANT: Captain du Plooy, Swanepoel, Terreblanche, Motsamai, Ngo.

MR STANDER: Are there any others that you can remember?

MR OLIPHANT: Du Plessis.

MR STANDER: Anyone else?

MR OLIPHANT: I do not remember the others very well.

MR STANDER: Please tell me, George Muzi, who was that?

MR OLIPHANT: George Muzi is my grandfather.

MR STANDER: What happened to him?

MR OLIPHANT: We were arrested on the 6th of April 1986, we were 19 in number, we wanted to skip the country. We resided at George Muzi’s house for a long time. That was after - after I was arrested for trying to skip the country, the police fetched me from the cells and they told me that I killed George Muzi and it was not true, because we left George Muzi in a well condition. I was surprised how would I kill that person?

MR STANDER: As a result of the death of this person, what was the feelings of the family?

MR OLIPHANT: I am hated until this day, my own blood hates me until today.

MR STANDER: Why does your own family hate you?

JUDGE NGOEPE: Mr Stander, in the meantime, Mr Muzi, is that the person who was killed some time?

MR STANDER: That is in fact so Mr Chairman.

JUDGE NGOEPE: And in relation to this witness, how is that related to the whole question of amnesty?

MR STANDER: It will be the witness’s evidence that some of the members of the security force or police, among others Motsamai and Ngo, spread disinformtion amongst members of the public that it was the witness who killed his own uncle Mr George Muzi. It is based on this that this evidence is placed before you.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I’m not able to bring it into the whole process of amnesty. Are you calling him just to make use of this platform to vindicate himself? Precisely how does this link up to the question of amnesty?

MR STANDER: He is a person who was affected as a result of the actions of among others, Ngo and Motsamai, who is being called a murderer by his family while this is not the case. &#9;Do I have your permission to continue with this?

&#9;Mr Oliphant, are you ready to continue? 

MR OLIPHANT: Yes.

MR STANDER: The last question that I asked you was based on what is your family accusing you as being the murderer of your uncle? What is the reason for this?

MR OLIPHANT: That’s correct. The whole township knew me as the killer of my grandfather. I stayed with him for quite a long time, everybody saw me staying with him.

MR STANDER: Who was the cause of this information being spread in the black townships?

MR OLIPHANT: One of them is Geoffrey Mabilo and the other one is Motsamai and the other white policemen.

MR STANDER: This affidavit which you have in front of you, it was sworn, is that correct?

MR OLIPHANT: Which one are you referring to Sir?

MR STANDER: The one that you have in front of you. It is your statement not so, and your signature which appears on it? Please look on page 2.

MR OLIPHANT: This is my signature outside.

MR STANDER: So that’s your signature?

MR OLIPHANT: This is not my signature Sir, it was typed.

MR STANDER: The document that you have in front of you, if you look at the other bundle ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Can we just ensure that he has the correct bundle in front of him? Can someone just assist the witness? Mr Brink?

MR OLIPHANT: This is my name Sir.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Brink.

ADV DE JAGER: Kan die tolke asseblief net die laaste antwoord tolk?

MR OLIPHANT: This is my name Sir.

MR STANDER: Mr Oliphant, you were also - you decided to leave the country for Maseru, is that correct?

MR OLIPHANT: That’s correct. I was the ANC organiser around Manahung and I was canvassing the students, those who were not schooling, so they can skip the country, that was my duty.&#9;

MR STANDER: Where did you go from there together with the rest of the group?

MR OLIPHANT: We were wanted by the policemen around the township, we then decided to skip the country but we were arrested by the soldiers at the riverside at Ladybrand. It was on the 6th of April 1986, on a Sunday round about 12 o’clock or rather between 12 and 12H30. We were 19 in number. All of us wanted to skip into Lesotho and the soldiers arrested us.

MR STANDER: After you were arrested, where were you taken?

MR OLIPHANT: We were taken to the soldier’s camps, the military camps in Ladybrand, all of us. From Ladybrand we were taken to the Ladybrand special branch and they sent us to Fountain Police Station.

MR STANDER: What happened to you on your return to Bloemfontein at Fountain Street?

MR OLIPHANT: They took us to Ram Kraal where it was the prison and we were refused. We were in a big van and we were taken to Park Road Police Station and they still refused us. We were then taken to Fountain. We arrived to Fountain and the van was parked behind. 

&#9;The policemen were already awaiting us and they made a guard of honour for us. We were running as we alighted from the van. We were in the middle of the two lines made by the policemen and we were put in the kitchen at station. Amongst us all I was the person who was called. Swanepoel and Terreblanche were the people pointing me by name.

MR STANDER: Why were you specifically called by those two persons?

MR OLIPHANT: Myself and Oupa were regarded as the leaders of this group.

MR STANDER: On that day, did you see Ngo and Motsamai there?

MR OLIPHANT: They were together, all of them were there. They were excited, even the white policemen were excited.

MR STANDER: What happened to you after you were called out of the kitchen?

MR OLIPHANT: Myself and Oupa were taken out of the kitchen and I was taken to Captain du Plooy’s office. I do not know to which office was Oupa taken but I was taken to Captain du Plooy’s office. Before all this I was arrested at the shop and they wanted to know the whereabouts of comrade Steve Bogatcoe who was our commander here in Bloemfontein, he was operating underground. 

&#9;He was in hiding and he disappeared on the 29th of March. It was at night when he came to me because he was hunted by the police and he didn’t want to be seen.

CHAIRPERSON: You will remember what was said earlier about spelling names for the assistance of the interpreter.

MR STANDER: Thank you Sir, I will do that.

&#9;The person you mentioned now was Steve Bogatcoe?

MR OLIPHANT: I’m going to try to spell it, I will not say that this is the correct spelling: Bogatcoe.

MR STANDER: Tell me, Steve Bogatcoe - when you were arrested and you were taken out of the kitchen ...[end of Tape 1 A - No follow-on sound]

&#9;...[No English translation]

ADV DE JAGER: Kan hy miskien vir ons net vertel - hy’s toe gegeem na du Plooy se kantoor toe, en wat wou du Plooy van hom weet?

MR STANDER: Is ek reg as ek se dat Mnr du Plooy wou toe nou by u weet waar Steve Bogatcoe was? U moet nou asseblief daarvan af begin en vir ons vertel wat het toe daarna gebeur.

MR OLIPHANT: [No English translation]

MR STANDER: Se vir my, Motsamai en Ngo, het hulle enigsins deel gehad in die aanranding of die - op?

MR OLIPHANT: [No English translation]

MR STANDER: Hoe lank het hierdie aanranding voort geduur?

ADV DE JAGER: Kan ons nou net die opgeklaar kry. Hy praat nou van ‘n aanranding in the kombuis, ons was laas nou in du Plooy se kantoor. Was die aanranding in the kombuis voor hy na du Plooy se kantoor toe is of wanneer was dit gewees?

MR STANDER: Mnr Voorsitter, ek sal dit by hom uitkry. Ek het hom verstaan om te se dat hy in die kantoor van du Plooy aangerand was en toe hy terug geneem is na die kombuis, toe hy gevra het om na die toilet toe gegaan het Motsamai en Ngo vir hom aangerand maar ek sal hierdie aangeleentheid met hom opklaar met u toestemming.

&#9;Se vir my, die voorval wat plaasgevind het in Mnr du Plooy se kantoor, het dit eers plaasgevind en daarna is u na die kombuis? Daar was u aangerand deur Motsamai en Ngo onder andere?

MR OLIPHANT: When I was in du Plooy’s office I asked to be taken to the toilet and I was taken downstairs to the toilet and that’s where I met my assault, in the kitchen because I wanted a glass of water, that’s when I was assaulted. They said I was hiding the truth. It was in the kitchen, it was not in du Toit’s office. [English translation inaudible]

MR STANDER: After you were assaulted in the kitchen, were you taken back to du Toit’s office?

MR OLIPHANT: That’s correct.

MR STANDER: Did any further assaults take place on you in du Toit’s office?

MR OLIPHANT: I was further assaulted. They were not asking me, they were actually telling me the evidence that they heard from the other comrades. They said I was responsible for many activities around the country and I disputed that information.

MR STANDER: How long did these assaults continue for?

MR OLIPHANT: I was assaulted My Lord. What I realised at Fountain, I would only meet [indistinct] when we were taken to our cells. I was taken to Park Road and he was taken to Four Ways. We could not even communicate with each other because we were in pains, both of us.

MR STANDER: What time was this when you were taken to the police cells?

MR OLIPHANT: It was at night My Lord, at night.

MR STANDER: Did you have any injuries?

MR OLIPHANT: Yes, I was injured behind my head because Swanepoel hit me with the butt of the gun and I fainted. They did not have mercy even when I was lying down, they continued with the assaults.

MR STANDER: Was there any blood on your face?

MR OLIPHANT: I was bleeding through the ears and through the mouth. Even to this day my teeth are loose, since then they have been loose.

MR STANDER: [English translation inaudible]

MR OLIPHANT: Not at all. They said a terrorist cannot be seen by a doctor, not at all My Lord.

MR STANDER: What happened the next day?

MR OLIPHANT: I was taken to ...[indistinct] square where there was a parade. I was thrown among many people, then [English translation inaudible]

MR STANDER: [English translation inaudible]

MR OLIPHANT: [English translation inaudible]

MR STANDER: [English translation inaudible]

MR OLIPHANT: [English translation inaudible]

MR STANDER: You say you were taken to Fuchsware building? To do what there?

MR OLIPHANT: Because I refused to being a member of the ANC. They said ...[indistinct] where someone will point me as being a member who was used by the ANC and one of comrades identified me. This is the person I was together with in the cell, he pointed me out.

MR STANDER: Tell me, were Motsamai and Ngo involved the whole time while you were assaulted and then removed?

MR OLIPHANT: When I was taken to Fuchsware they were not there.

MR STANDER: And on the second day, what happened then?

MR OLIPHANT: My eyes were closed because of the swelling, I could not see. Du Plessis even took a photo of me and he was showing it to the others and saying: "Look at this baboon". He called me a baboon because he hit me until my eyes were swollen.

MR STANDER: After you were at Fuchsware, what happened then?

MR OLIPHANT: Because I was still refusing to agree with what he was saying, they continually assaulted me.

MR STANDER: That evening, where were you taken then?

MR OLIPHANT: I was taken back to Park Road in the cells.

MR STANDER: Did you receive any medical attention?

MR OLIPHANT: Not at all My Lord, they said terrorists cannot be seen by a doctor.

MR STANDER: So were you taken back to Fountain Street?

MR OLIPHANT: Yes, I was now even taken to Fountain to be interrogated. One thing that surprised me a lot was when I found my passport in du Plooy’s office and I had to agree as they accused me of the stamps in my passport. [English translation inaudible] They had cassettes in their possession and they thought within those cassettes they would ANC cassettes but they would not.

MR STANDER: How long did this torturing continue? How many days?

MR OLIPHANT: I will not be in a position to remember because I even got mentally disturbed. I was already taken to a mental hospital.

MR STANDER: Tell me, except for the first day, were Motsamai and Ngo in any way involved in your torture?

MR OLIPHANT: I last saw them in the kitchen Sir.

MR STANDER: Just to conclude with the evidence, later on you were charged, am I correct?

MR OLIPHANT: That’s correct, together with Oupa Makubalo. We were charged with terrorism.

MR STANDER: And it was during this period [English 

translation inaudible]

MR OLIPHANT: George Muzi died when I was in the hands of the police. I remember it was on the ...[indistinct] and the police came to me and insisted that I killed George Muzi. And they kicked me whilst I was in those cells.

MR STANDER: While you were kicked here, George Muzi died, is that what you’re telling the Commission?

MR OLIPHANT: That’s correct.

MR STANDER: What happened with the criminal charge that was made against you?

MR OLIPHANT: There was no evidence in court but the people and the police had evidence but it was not used in court.

MR STANDER: Do you know whether you were found guilty or not guilty?

MR OLIPHANT: I was not found guilty, I was not even charged.

MR STANDER: Tell me, did you sustain any injuries that you have kept due to the assault [English translation inaudible]

MR OLIPHANT: Yes, I have this thing behind my head, it is swollen. That is where Swanepoel hit me the butt of the gun and my teeth are loose.

MR STANDER: Thank you Mr Chair, this is the evidence in chief of this witness.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

MR VISSER: May I go first Mr Chairman, Visser on record. In view of the fact that none of my client’s are implicated Mr Chairman, I have no questions of this witness.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no questions either.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, perhaps if I may - Visser on record again, my attorney has just drawn my attention to one fact and perhaps I should just make one statement to the witness that is referring to page one of the set of affidavits. If I may Mr Chairman, just place one aspect on record.

&#9;Mr Oliphant, do you know for whom I appear in this case or don’t you know?

MR OLIPHANT: I do not know Sir.

MR VISSER: You don’t know. Well, Mr Chairman, I don’t want to make a long speech out of this but if I could put it on this basis to the witness?

&#9;For as far as you have mentioned anywhere else in any other evidence you’d given, any other names than the ones that you’ve given here today, I suggest to you that insofar as I appear for any of those persons, if necessary they would deny any wrongdoing on their part. 

&#9;Mr Chairman, you must stop me please if it’s not good enough ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I don’t understand it at all I’m afraid Mr Visser.

MR VISSER: Well, then I’ll have to go through it the long way unfortunately, and you’re quite right, it doesn’t’ make sense the way I put it.

&#9;Mr Oliphant, can I tell you for whom I appear? I appear for Mr Coetzee - and please stop me if there’s anybody that I mention that you don’t know whom I’m talking about please interrupt me, Mr Erasmus, Mr Shaw, Mr Litseou, Mr Mamome, Mr Unkanjani, Mr Maningwa, Mr Norakile - M’Lord, I’m not spelling these because they are on record at the moment ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: On the list.

MR VISSER: On the list. Perhaps I should draw the attention of the interpreter to the fact that I’m now referring to bundle B of the record and the contents, the index on top of that bundle.

&#9;Morakile, Ntjiala, Ramouseau, Sesedinyane, Tswametsi, now those are 13 names. Then there are a further nine names and I believe Mr Chairman, that they appear in another record. 

&#9;I was hoping to find them - oh yes, it is the portion of the record Mr Chairman - I see my page is not numbered, I don’t know whether you can see this far but it was at the last hearing, we got a list - I think in all probability this was the list that was also present at the time when the pre-trial conference was held 

Mr Chairman. It may be attached to your pre-trial conference at the time, I’m not quite certain. I’m just trying to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I have a list of 22 names.

MR VISSER: That’s the one Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible]

MR VISSER: That’s the one I’m looking for Mr Chairman, yes, that’s the one I’m looking for.

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible]

MR VISSER: Yes, I was hoping that I could give that to the interpreters to ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: [inaudible]

MR VISSER: Thank you, thank you. Then I’m continuing with the names. Number 14 is Mr Jantjie, Constable Jantjie, Tulo, Sefatsa, Bester, Mokalake, Tsomela, van den Berg, Malezi and Kopie. Are there any names that I’ve mentioned to you that you recognise?

MR OLIPHANT: I know Kopie.

MR VISSER: I didn’t want to ask this questions but now I’m compelled to ask it. Did Kopie have anything to do - as far as you’re concerned, with yourself? Anything at all to do with you relating to why you’re here today?

MR OLIPHANT: I know him as a policeman at Fountain.

MR VISSER: Yes, is that all?

MR OLIPHANT: Yes, that’s all.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR MEMANI: No questions M’Lord.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

MR BRINK: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, one question to clarify the record. The witness referred to his grandfather throughout and you referred to his uncle, which was it? - George Muzi.

MR STANDER: I could possibly just find out from the witness, I might have made a mistake Mr Chair.

&#9;Mr Oliphant, how is George Muzi related to you?

MR OLIPHANT: George Muzi was a cousin to my father, he was the elder brother to my father and I refer to him as my grandfather.

MR STANDER: I don’t know whether that is clearer.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, it indicates how the different came about.

MR STANDER: As you please.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I will continue to call the next witness for today and that is Mr Matthews Mzuzwana. 

ADV DE JAGER: Could you possibly spell the name so long please?

MR VISSER: Mr Chair, it was already done on this list of affidavits that was placed before you but I will do it gladly.

ADV DE JAGER: The interpreters now have to look for the name so can you just indicate where it is on the list.

INTERPRETERS: The interpreters don’t have any documents in front of them in anycase.

MR STANDER: M-z-u-z-w-a-n-a. The witness is in the stand Mr Chairman.

MATTHEWS MZUZWANA: (sworn states)

MR STANDER: Mr Mzuzwana, there are two bundles, affidavits before you, could you please refer to bundle number two? Can you please look at page 15 and 16, is that your affidavit?

MR MZUZWANA: That’s correct.

MR STANDER: Would you please read it into the record?

MR MZUZWANA: Should I read it in English or in the language it is written?

ADV DE JAGER: Can’t he just attest to it and confirm it?

MR STANDER: Is that your signature which appears under there?

MR MZUZWANA: That’s my signature.

MR STANDER: Tell me, in this affidavit you say that you were prejudiced by the actions and acts of Motsamai and Ngo. Can you please briefly explain to us on what grounds you say that Ngo and Motsamai assaulted or tortured you?

MR MZUZWANA: I would like to know from you Sir, are you referring to the events - before the event of being shot at or after the event of being shot at?

MR STANDER: You must testify about the incidents in which you were involved and in which Ngo and Motsamai were also involved. Let’s start with a certain incident, the first incident.

MR MZUZWANA: I was a student with regards to the first incident and I was a member of COSAS and I was a member of the UDF. In many of our activities fighting against apartheid, Ngo and Motsamai took part in the assault and the torture.

MR STANDER: Please refer to a specific incident.

MR MZUZWANA: The first time was when I was arrested by Motsamai and them. Erasmus fetched me from home and they took me to the veld and that is where they assaulted me, Ngo and Motsamai and them were present. I was then taken to Fountain, they wanted me to confirm that White Mohapi was one of the leadership people and the rest of them who were the leadership of COSAS.

MR STANDER: Who assaulted you? The question was how were you assaulted?

MR MZUZWANA: We arrived at Fountain and I was taken into a separate room, two tables were put before me and they took a stick and my hands were put behind my thighs and this stick was put between my knees and my hands. Mr Motsamai referred to this method as: "Chicken Jive". 

&#9;Thereafter I was electrocuted but still I refused to tell them the leadership of COSAS. I was then left thereafter. They wanted me to be their spy, I still refused.

MR STANDER: Were you later on released?

MR MZUZWANA: I was released after two days.

MR STANDER: Were you arrested later on again?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, I’ve been arrested on several occasions.

MR STANDER: Were you tortured every time?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, every time they tortured me.

MR STANDER: Were Motsamai and Ngo each and every time present when you were assaulted?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, they were present/

MR STANDER: I am now going to move on to the incident ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, when was this?

MR MZUZWANA: I do not remember very well Sir, this took place a long time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember what year?

MR MZUZWANA: It was in 1985.

MR STANDER: At that stage, were you still at school?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes.

MR STANDER: Which school did you attend?

MR MZUZWANA: I was at Vulamasango, V-u-l-a-m-a-s-a-n-g-o.

MR STANDER: We will now move on to the incident in which you were shot. Can you remember when that took place?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, I still remember.

MR STANDER: Can you give the date to the Committee please?

MR MZUZWANA: It was on the 18th of April in 1985.

MR STANDER: What happened then?

MR MZUZWANA: On that day we had arranged to hold a memorial service with regards to the Utenhage issue. As COSAS we organised that gathered for midday at ...[indistinct] High School and our parents would hold the same memorial service in the afternoon of that same day at church, it was at the AME church.

&#9;As I explained earlier on we were going to commemorate during the day and at night it would be our parents. Then we elected people among ourselves to go and mobilise, to go and inform other students to come to this meeting at 2 o’clock. To us as students this prayer meeting did not materialise because the policemen chased us and we could not meet together as planned. 

&#9;But the same day late at night we gathered at Vulamasango to meet with the parents as they carry on with the prayer which was at the AME church. The meeting went on that evening and after that prayer the elderly people requested the youth to go carefully and not pester the police at all. Even if we sing, we shouldn’t sing any song that will lead the policemen to beat us. We then went out of the meeting, there were people who were singing but I was not amongst the group who were singing. 

&#9;We took a road leading to Botshabelo, I forgot the name of the street. Before we could enter Botshabelo - we were between the two locations, Bato and Botshabelo, there was a police van called a "Mellow-Yellow" which came to us driving very slowly. I was together with my sister-in-law and I was telling her the events of my arrest. 

&#9;As we were talking the police van drove very slowly and one person from inside called my name, he said: "Yes Matthews, you are a springbuck" and my sister-in-law said: "Please don’t get into an argument with these people, they’re trying to provoke you, just ignore them". I did ignore them, I did not even see this person who was shouting my name. 

&#9;We got right into Botshabelo until at St Peter’s church in Pahaleng. Just when we approached the church this "Mellow-Yellow" that I’ve referred to, blocked the road. People were still singing but singing peacefully. The road was blocked, so we had to walk on the tarred road. There’s a street - I just happen to forget the name of the street but it was close to the tavern, when we were approaching that street the police came with their van, they got out of the car and people ran into different directions. I was left alone. 

&#9;One policeman who came to arrest me was Nkosi - I do not remember his first name but there were two, it was Nkosi and the other one. Now Nonsololo my sister-in-law was asking them where they were taking me to, now there was no reply. They chased her away. 

&#9;I see a name of a policeman here: Ramulefi, this is the policeman who came out. Lukani whom I referred to earlier on and the other policeman took me to the van and he said to them: "Leave this child, we are not going to be troubled by such a small boy". While trying to listen to what this person was going to say further, a shot went off and I do not remember what happened thereafter. I was shot at the ear.

MR STANDER: Can you please turn your head so that the people can see what your ear looks like? Why is your face so skew?

MR MZUZWANA: These are the effects of that shooting.

MR STANDER: Tell me, were Motsamai and Ngo involved in this last incident?

MR MZUZWANA: I do not know because I did not see them but as they gave evidence here, it appeared that they were there. They said they were there but I did not see them.

MR STANDER: Were you hospitalised due to this shooting 

incident?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, I stayed three months in the hospital.

MR STANDER: Are you still suffering the consequences of this injury that you have sustained?

MR MZUZWANA: People laugh at me when they meet me in the street, nobody would just pass me, they always pass and look back at me.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Stander, can you please clear this up for me? He said that he did not see Motsamai and Ngo, am I correct in saying that he said they didn’t do anything to him?

MR STANDER: That is correct Mr Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: [inaudible]

INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not on.

ADV DE JAGER: In their own testimony he heard that they were present that evening of the incident but regarding him they didn’t do anything?

MR STANDER: That’s correct Mr Chair, that is correct. He said that he didn’t see them because the policemen who held him were two others, not Motsamai and Ngo. The only reason why this testimony is placed before you is due to the fact that Motsamai and Ngo testified about this, that’s the only reason.

&#9;I can’t - the Committee can make no deductions from this testimony, it is only in addition to the earlier testimony.

JUDGE NGOEPE: He doesn’t know who fired the shot?

MR STANDER: That’s correct Mr Chair, he doesn’t know.

&#9;Mr Mzuzwana, is it correct to say that you laid a civil claim at a later stage?

MR MZUZWANA: That’s correct.

MR STANDER: And also that the matter was settled in the Supreme Court here in Bloemfontein?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, it was settled.

MR STANDER: And the defendants in the matter was the South African Police?

MR MZUZWANA: That’s correct.

MR STANDER: No further questions, thank you Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Sorry Mr Chairman, may I go first? Thank you.

&#9;Mr Mzuzwana, are you also known as: "Zwelinzima: Z-w-e-l-i-n-z-i-m-a Mzuzwana"?

MR MZUZWANA: Not Zwelinzima but Wzelinjani: W-z-e-l-i-n-j-a-n-i.

MR VISSER: Please stop me if I’m wrong, but on one of the occasions, previous occasions during this hearing, were you not called and asked what your name was when were in the other hall? I may be mistaken, please stop me if I’m wrong. Were you asked by the Committee to tell the Committee what your name was when we were sitting in the other hall?

MR MZUZWANA: Which Committee are you referring to Sir?

MR VISSER: This Committee before whom we are appearing today?

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I tried to help my learned friend by pointing out to him that it was his brother who was called at a previous occasion to come and clear up the matter of the name.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, well, I’m now compelled to go on and I can’t take that matter any further. 

&#9;Did you during your trial, tell the court the same story as you told this Committee today about who were present at the time when you were shot that evening?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, I did tell the court.

MR VISSER: I have before me Mr Chairman, a document which I very good belief emanates from the Investigation Unit. May I enquire from you Mr Chairman, whether you and your members have a document which came from the - a report from the Investigation Unit? 

&#9;It’s a rather thick bundle and it’s unfortunately not paginated. In that bundle under a number which I have here as 7.3 - it’s about 2/3rds through that bundle, where the Investigation Unit with the allegations of Mr Motsamai. They have attached for your attention, a Judgement by van Coller J. in a civil claim instituted by this particular witness against the South African Police.

&#9;I’m not going to waste time on this Mr Chairman, but there is one aspect which I believe is my duty to point out to you. If you have found it Mr Chairman, it is at page - typed page four of that Judgement. If you haven’t found it Mr Chairman, may I perhaps hand up my copy to you and I ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: The first top line is:

"also the contents of the"

MR VISSER: I want to refer you to linen 10.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the bundle is E2.

MR VISSER: E2, thank you Mr Chairman. And I want to refer your attention to line 10 of that page. 

&#9;According to - I’m addressing you now Mr Mzuzwana, according to the summary by the Judge in the case in the Supreme Court where you were the Plaintiff against the police, he stated that your evidence was that you knew two of the people there that evening and those two people that you saw there and you knew, were Nkosi and Ngo. Do you understand the question?

MR MZUZWANA: I understand your question Sir.

MR VISSER: Now, was that in fact your evidence that you gave during your trial, that you saw Nkosi and Ngo there that evening?

MR MZUZWANA: That is my evidence.

MR VISSER: And are you today uncertain about Ngo because you did not include him today in your evidence?

MR MZUZWANA: Chairperson, I would like you to take this into consideration. It’s been many years since this incident and today I’m just picking up.

MR VISSER: Alright. So is what you’re saying, that your memory was better when you gave your evidence in the Supreme Court than what it is here today? Is that what you’re saying?

MR MZUZWANA: That’s correct.

MR VISSER: Aright. Now I must put this to you, I’m going to argue to this Committee that your evidence in this regard, implicating Mr Ngo, is entirely untrustworthy for the reason that Mr Ngo didn’t place himself on that scene but Mr Motsamai in fact is the person who applied for amnesty in regard to that event.

&#9;At page 147 Mr Chair, of bundle A, paragraph 7.

Do you understand what I’ve just put to you?

MR MZUZWANA: I understand what you’re saying Sir.

MR VISSER: Do you have any explanation for this conflict of evidence?

MR MEMANI: Mr Chairman, subject to correct, I’m not certain at this stage, I can’t recall what the evidence was exactly but my recollection is that Mr Ngo indicated some knowledge of this incident.

MR VISSER: Can my learned friend point to you Mr Chairman and myself to boot, where Mr Ngo has applied for amnesty in regard to this incident?

MR MEMANI: I’m not saying that Mr Ngo has applied for amnesty with regard to the incident but somehow in his testimony my recollection is that he does refer to the incident.

MR VISSER: Well that takes us nowhere Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Do you have any explanation of this conflict of evidence which I’ve just put to you?

CHAIRPERSON: What conflict?

MR VISSER: The conflict is this, Ngo does not apply for amnesty, Motsamai does, this witness places Ngo on the scene, Ngo says he wasn’t there. He doesn’t say he was there.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn’t he say: "I did not see Ngo and Motsamai but as they gave evidence they said they were there but I didn’t see them"?

MR VISSER: But Mr Chairman, he has just confirmed that his memory was better during his trial and at the trial he said Ngo and Nkosi were there.

CHAIRPERSON: Today he hasn’t.

MR VISSER: And the point is Mr Chairman, Mr Motsamai is the man who said: "I was there". In any event, the rest is a question of argument Mr Chairman, I’ve made the point with the witness. I just thought - in fairness to him I thought I’d give him an opportunity to - if there is an explanation, to present it to you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if somebody can look up the record and find if Ngo did say it, that’s the answer isn’t it, it will appear in the transcript?

MR VISSER: Yes, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Who’s the person that you’ve referred to as Erasmus?

MR MZUZWANA: I don’t see him in this hall.

MR VISSER: Just tell us who he is. Who do you know him as?

MR MZUZWANA: I know him only as Erasmus, I don’t know his rank.

MR VISSER: Does he work at the butchery?

MR MZUZWANA: He’s a policeman.

MR VISSER: He’s a policeman. Where does work?

MR MZUZWANA: He’s a policeman.

MR VISSER: Do you know with what branch of the police he is or was?

MR MZUZWANA: He was here in Bloemfontein, he was working in Bloemfontein.

MR VISSER: Will you describe this person to us so that we can 

try to identify him?

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, that is a completely unfair questions. How can this witness describe a person? He has already told us that this person is not present in this hall.

ADV DE JAGER: But it will indicate that he knows what he looks like and if he knows what he looks like he will be able to describe him.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, for me to describe you while I’m sitting here looking at you will take me a half a day. There are other ways in which one can sort out this evidence in all fairness.

MR VISSER: If I may reply Mr Chairman? I submit that the proper way of identification is precisely the way in which we are going about it. You asked the witness to describe whether he can say that the person was tall, short, stout, thin, whether there are any specific features of this person that he can remember so that we can know who he’s talking about Mr Chairperson.

MR STANDER: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: I’m not wasting time Mr Chairman, I’m doing this according to the prescripts of our law, with great respect.

MR STANDER: Sal jy asseblief vir my ‘n kans gee?

MR VISSER: And there is nothing unreasonable in the question.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, there a much better method. If my learned friend wants this person to be pointed out, why do we not organise an identification parade? That would sort the problem out much easier.

MR VISSER: Because I don’t want to waster time Mr Chairman, and I don’t understand why my learned friend is so concerned about what his witness can or cannot answer. It’s a perfectly legitimate question, just describe the man to us. And the reason for that is quite an obvious one ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: Let’s ask another question first. 

&#9;You say you know this man as Erasmus?

MR MZUZWANA: That is true.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you seen him before?

MR MZUZWANA: Many occasions.

CHAIRPERSON: Many occasions? Do you know what he looks like?

MR MZUZWANA: Many occasions when I was arrested and taken to Fountain. He was among those people who went to fetch me in the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what he looks like?

MR MZUZWANA: When coming to explain his features, that would be impossible for me to do that because I would say he’s short and I would not know as whether I would be putting his characters correctly.

CHAIRPERSON: You say he was short?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he a thin man or a well-built man?

MR MZUZWANA: I’m not able to remember.

CHAIRPERSON: And is that all you can remember about him?

MR MZUZWANA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman, there’s nothing sinister turns about it - on it. 

&#9;You see Mr Mzuzwana, I appear for a gentlemen called Erasmus, that’s Colonel Erasmus and by your description it appears that it is probably the person that you’re referring to. Perhaps to make it absolutely clear, while we were in the other hall on previous occasions, did you see Mr Erasmus there - the one that you’re referring to, in my company and talking to me?

MR MZUZWANA: I didn’t see him standing with you but I saw him in that hall many times.

MR VISSER: That’s the person I’m going to refer to in my questions I put to you. Will you please tell us, because you failed to do so in your evidence in chief, what precisely he did to you on the occasion that you referred to when you were arrested?

MR MZUZWANA: He was assaulting me. I remember one day when we were arrested whilst we were selling newspapers, he told me how he would shoot me because I denied to be his informer.

MR VISSER: Is that the assault you’re talking about? He threatened to shoot you, is that what you’re talking about?

MR MZUZWANA: I remember that day which I’ve explained. He assaulted me on many occasions. A certain day they showed me a ...[indistinct] - the window, and they would throw me outside if I denied to work with them.

MR VISSER: Now let me see whether I understand your evidence. Is your evidence now that Colonel Erasmus assaulted you on more than one occasion?

MR MZUZWANA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Are you able to recall on how many occasions?

MR MZUZWANA: I’m not able to remember how many but it was many occasions. They used to come to my place and take me to assault me, Erasmus was in the company of those police.

MR VISSER: Alright. Well, perhaps I should ask you, who were the other police in whose company he was? - that you keep on referring to?

MR MZUZWANA: ...[inaudible] present, Meningwa was present, Mamome, Swanepoel, Terreblanche and Ngo and Motsamai.

MR VISSER: Let me try to understand. Is it every time that they came to your house, was it this group of people as well as Erasmus or did the group change, the individuals in the group change from time to time?

MR MZUZWANA: At times three people would come to fetch me but at times they would come in different numbers on different occasions but Erasmus would always be there.

MR VISSER: Will you please explain to the Committee why you didn’t tell us in your evidence in chief, about the other assaults that you’re now telling us about? - you only spoke of one assault.

MR MZUZWANA: I didn’t say I was assaulted once but I said I was assaulted on many occasions.

MR VISSER: Did you tell Mr Stander about more than one assault on you when you consulted with him?

JUDGE NGOEPE: Mr Visser, isn’t that what he said? I mean, he said I was - I’m saying that is what he told us, he said he was arrested on several occasions.

&#9;"Were you tortured every time"? - "Yes"

&#9;"Were Ngo and Motsamai always there"? - "Yes"

So he has told us that he was assaulted on many occasions.

MR VISSER: I’m talking about Erasmus and ...[intervention]

MR MZUZWANA: No, no, well then you should have said so, because what you’ve put to him - you are saying to him that, why did he not tell us earlier on that he had been assaulted on many occasions.

MR VISSER: I thought I did make it plain and I’m sorry if I didn’t. I said to him: "The questions I’m going to direct to you concern Mr Erasmus"? and I’m sorry if I didn’t do it clearly and I will refrain from being unclear about it in future. I’m talking - if I may continue?

&#9;I’m talking about Mr Erasmus, Colonel Erasmus, Mr Mzuzwana, please - I’m sorry if I misled you with my questions. I’m putting it to you that you gave evidence of one occasion in your evidence in chief where Mr Erasmus was involved in an assault on you. Is that correct or not?

MR MZUZWANA: I don’t know how I should answer this question because I’ve already answered this question. It’s many time when Mr Erasmus was involved in the assaults.

MR VISSER: Did you tell Mr Stander that when you consulted with him?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, I did.

MR VISSER: Thank you. How did Mr Erasmus assault you on any of these occasions? Now, I think you must pick an occasion so that you can tell us what happened. In your evidence in chief you referred to the occasion when you were arrested and Erasmus you said, came to fetch you from your house, is that correct?

MR MZUZWANA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Was that only on one occasion, that he came to fetch you from your house or was there other occasions?

MR MZUZWANA: I don’t know what to say. May I speak Xhosa? I reply to that question and then you turn the question around. Where should I go, which direction should I take to answer your question?

MR VISSER: Presumably you should just tell me the truth Mr Mzuzwana.

MR STANDER: I also have a problem with my learned friend’s method of questioning. The witness told us pertinently that on several occasions he was arrested and assaulted. It is so that he did not say that Erasmus was present ever time that he was assaulted but he said that the security police were present on every occasion. &#9;I pertinently did not ask him about every occasion because otherwise we would still be busy with this tomorrow afternoon, with this specific evidence. 

&#9;That is why I made an exception of one and asked the witness what happened on other occasions and he said that he was assaulted on other occasions. If my learned friend now wants me - wanted me to have led him on every specific occasion that this happened then surely I would have done this.

&#9;But at the beginning of this hearing I was told to keep the matters as brief as possible, and it’s on this basis that I’ve done this and it’s unfair to blame this witness for this now. And what is more, you have already from your side, pointed out to my learned friend that he or that the witness has already said that he was assaulted on various occasions ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Stander, let us just make this short. Was he assaulted several times by Erasmus or the police? 

&#9;Can you just tell us whether Erasmus assaulted you on several occasions?

MR MZUZWANA: That is true, Erasmus assaulted me. He assaulted me all the time when I was there. When I was fetched to Fountain he took part in the assault. He assaulted me because I didn’t want to be his informer.

ADV DE JAGER: What did he do to you?

MR MZUZWANA: Explain again, the method they used.

ADV DE JAGER: No, I don’t want to know the method they used. What did Erasmus do to you?

MR MZUZWANA: I don’t know how to answer this question Sir. He assaulted me with his fists and kicked me.

MR VISSER: Thank you Mr Chairman.

&#9;Is that your complete answer to the question that Commission de Jager put to you on how you were assaulted by Erasmus? Is that your complete answer, you don’t want to add anything?

MR MZUZWANA: ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: We didn’t hear the answer that came through.

INTERPRETER: The speaker was not audible enough.

MR VISSER: Will you just repeat your answer for the record please Mr Mzuzwana.

MR MZUZWANA: There’s nothing I can add on that, that’s my reply.

MR VISSER: Why didn’t you - let me rather ask you this way, did you complain to anybody about the assaults of Mr Erasmus on you? Lay a charge against him, institute a civil claim against him?

MR MZUZWANA: Like who?

MR VISSER: Like Mr Erasmus. Did you charge him, did you lay a charge against him? Did you ask your attorney to address a letter to him to claim damages from him or anything of the kind?

MR MZUZWANA: No.

MR VISSER: Why not?

MR MZUZWANA: Even if I tried to lay a charge against him, he was not going to be arrested. He was part of the government or he was the government.

MR VISSER: But you could have claimed damages from him couldn’t you, for his assaults on you?

MR MZUZWANA: I tried to lay charges on those assaults but even today there is no progress. I saw that it was useless to lay a charge against the police.

MR VISSER: Are you saying now you did in fact lay charges, criminal charges against Mr Erasmus? Is that what you’re saying?

MR MZUZWANA: I said I didn’t do that, to lay charges against Erasmus.

MR VISSER: Well, I want to put it to you that Mr Erasmus will deny your allegations that he ever assaulted you.

&#9;Mr Chairman, I’m sorry ...[intervention]

MR MZUZWANA: I didn’t say Erasmus shot me, I said he assaulted me. 

MR VISSER: There’s no translation coming through to me Mr Chairman. I don’t know whether you’re hearing something. I didn’t hear the last reply.

MR MZUZWANA: I said, if Mr Erasmus is going to say he denies taking part in the assault, he knows that in his heart that he did take part.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, if you’ll allow me - I have no further questions but I do have to make one remark because it’s appropriate to make it now. I don’t know where this fits in, in the amnesty application of Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai. 

&#9;Be that as it may, I think I’ve covered what I have to cover and I have no further questions. Just a moment Mr Chairman, if you will allow me a moment? Yes, I am terribly sorry Mr Chairman, there’s just one further statement I have to make to him.

&#9;You did mention further names: Meningwa, Mamome, and then you mentioned Swanepoel, Terreblanche and Ngo and Motsamai. As far as Mr Meningwa is concerned, will you just explain to the Committee why you mentioned his name.

MR MZUZWANA: He was working with these people and then he used to be there when I was fetched from my home.

MR VISSER: Is that the only reason why you mentioned Meningwa’s name, that he was present when you were fetched from your home?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, that is true.

MR VISSER: And Mamome, you mentioned Mamome. Why did you mention him?

MR MZUZWANA: They worked together.

MR VISSER: Is the reason why you mentioned Mamome the fact that he worked together with whom? Meningwa?

MR MZUZWANA: I said all these person whom I mentioned took part if I was arrested.

MR VISSER: Is that your complete answer?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, that is true.

MR VISSER: Alright. Well, I’m going to put it to you nevertheless, that Meningwa, Mamome as well will deny that they assaulted you at any time, if that is your allegation which is not quite clear.

MR MZUZWANA: Even they may deny that or dispute that, God knows what happened.

MR VISSER: Just let’s stay on earth for a moment. Did they assault you or didn’t they, Meningwa and Mamome?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, they did.

MR VISSER: On how many occasions did ...[intervention]

ADV DE JAGER: I just want to ask you a question, it’s a fairly straightforward question. Did they assault you or didn’t they and that’s Meningwa and Mamome? Why did you take about five minutes to consider the answer?

MR MZUZWANA: Is it because the question which is asked by the lawyer, is because I said all these people took part in the assault. I did not know as whether I’m making a mistake to take such a long time to answer that question.

MR VISSER: Or are you saying that you’re not at all certain today as you sit there, whether either Meningwa or Mamome did in fact assault you? Is that not the truth?

MR MZUZWANA: I don’t know Mr Chairperson, you are still asking me the same question. These people took part in all occasions when I was arrested and they took part in the torture.

MR VISSER: Alright. What did Mr Meningwa do to you that you can remember? Please tell us on occasion and what Mr Meningwa did to you if it’s at all possible for you to remember, if it’s not then say so. 

MR MZUZWANA: How should I put it or what kind of assault are you talking about?

MR VISSER: Mr Mzuzwana, I’m not the one giving evidence about assaults, you are. You told this Committee that you were assaulted by a group of people of whom Erasmus, Meningwa and Mamome were at one or more occasion a part and that they took part in assaulting you, so it’s no good asking me how you were assaulted, I’m asking you. How did Meningwa assault you if at all and when was it?

MR MZUZWANA: I don’t remember the dates but they used to kick me and hit me with their fists, that’s the way they used to assault me.

MR VISSER: I’m not talking about they, I’m talking about Mr Meningwa. If you cannot remember how he assaulted you or when he assaulted you or on what occasion, please say so. I’m not talking about them, I’m talking about Mr Meningwa.

MR MZUZWANA: Meningwa kicked and hit me with his fists. In many cases when I was arrested, taken from my home to Fountain Street.

MR VISSER: And is it the same with Mr Mamome?

MR MZUZWANA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: I put it to you that all these people will deny your allegations that you were assaulted as you’ve alleged here today. &#9;Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

MR DU PLESSIS: No questions from this side Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR MEMANI: May I take instructions Mr Chairman? Thank 

you Mr Chairman.

&#9;Now Mr Mzuzwana, is it correct that you are not aware of the participation of Ngo and Motsamai in the incident during which you were shot?

MR MZUZWANA: Yes, I don’t remember.

MR MEMANI: Then you are not in a position to contradict their evidence?

MR MZUZWANA: No.

MR MEMANI: Those are my questions Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

MR BRINK: No thank you Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR STANDER: Mr Chairman, I notice that it is a quarter to four and we still have one witness, Mr Jwayi. I took instructions during the recess, his statement has not been attested to because I haven’t seen him before, nor have I duplicated the statement. If you would allow me I can place his evidence before you and then I can bring you the sworn affidavit tomorrow morning. The other possibility is that we can adjourn now and I can ensure that I have everything correct by tomorrow morning. ...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I’m told that the hall is available to us until 6 o’clock. 

MR STANDER: This is in your hands.

MR STANDER: I call Khusane Jwayi. I’m going to spell it: K-h-u-s-a-n-e J-w-a-y-i.

KHUSANE JWAYI: (sworn states)

MR STANDER: Mr Jwayi, is it correct that you are also A prejudiced person in the amnesty applications for Ngo and Motsamai?

MR JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Please tell me, were you part of the group of people who decided to leave the country and who were arrested just before you crossed the river in the Ladybrand district?

MR JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Can you recall when it was?

MR JWAYI: It was on the 6th of April 1986.

MR STANDER: Can you recall who was with you? Give me two names if you can.

MR JWAYI: That’s China and Oupa.

MR STANDER: If you say China, are you referring to Shadrack Oliphant?

MR JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: And Oupa?

MR JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Were you a member of the leadership group?

MR JWAYI: No, that is not correct.

MR STANDER: Is it correct that after you were arrested you were taken to the police station at Ladybrand?

MR JWAYI: After we were arrested by soldiers they transferred us to the police.

MR STANDER: Is it true that you eventually ended up in Fountain Street with the security police?

MR JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: What happened to you there?

MR JWAYI: I was interrogated and then thereafter I was assaulted if I was not responding the way they wanted to the questions they asked me.

MR STANDER: By whom were you assaulted?

MR JWAYI: Whom I would say was chiefly responsible, is Killian.

MR STANDER: Did you see Motsamai and Ngo as part of the security police? Were they present?

ADV DE JAGER: I think the question formed part of the answer. Was the answer Killian?

MR JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: &#9;I did not hear the answer. Was Mr Motsamai and Ngo also members of the security police at that stage?

MR JWAYI: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Did you also see them there?

MR JWAYI: On they day they made the guard of honour when we arrived yes, they were present.

MR STANDER: What did Mr Killian do to you?

MR JWAYI: He assaulted me more than any other policeman.

MR STANDER: I want you to tell us what he did.

MR JWAYI: He assaulted me the way I was not assaulted before.

MR STANDER: What did he do?

MR JWAYI: He was hitting me with fists, he was hitting me a certain belt which is so thick and then he was using a tube, he pressing me on the floor.

MR STANDER: Why did these assaults on you take place, what was the reason for it?

MR JWAYI: It is because China and Oupa were our leaders and that at times they - my sister’s house was used as a hiding place, that is why he was doing all those things in assaulting me.

MR STANDER: Were you released later?

MR JWAYI: Do you mean I was released from the police or meaning from Chilean’s hands?

MR STANDER: That’s correct, yes, from Killian. Did Killian release you? Were you taken away from him?

MR JWAYI: They took me to the kitchen but they used to go and fetch me there from the kitchen.

MR STANDER: Was it only Killian that was involved in these assaults every time?

MR JWAYI: There is a time when we were assaulted, they would use this tube to press me on the floor and the way you were kicked you would feel that it’s not only one person who took part but you would feel that it’s not only one person who takes part in the assault. It shows that when he was putting a tube on my face there were other people who took part in the assault.

MR STANDER: So you don’t know who it was?

MR JWAYI: I didn’t see them.

MR STANDER: Were you released after these assaults had continued?

MR JWAYI: I was not released from Fountain, I was always there at Fountain. They assaulted us around 5 o’clock and then at 5 o’clock they took us to the police stations.

MR STANDER: Were you brought back to Fountain Street the next day again?

MR JWAYI: Yes, they returned us to fountain street.

MR STANDER: Were you assaulted the next day again?

MR JWAYI: It was not the same as yesterday but they used their open hands so that we should tell them the truth.

MR STANDER: Was it once again Mr Killian who was involved?

MR JWAYI: The person whom I remember is Kopie.

MR STANDER: What did he do to you?

MR JWAYI: He assaulted me with open hands, that I don’t want to tell the truth.

MR STANDER: What did he want you to say?

MR JWAYI: They wanted me to confirm that China and Oupa were part of our leadership and agree with the places they identified as hiding places. When I disputed that, they started with assaults because they wanted me to confirm what they were saying to me.

MR STANDER: For how many days were you taken to Fountain Street?

MR JWAYI: For the first day they assaulted us, then they took us back again to Fountain but they ...[End of Tape 2 side A - no follow-on sound] days, then after that they would come and collect us again to take us to Fountain.

MR STANDER: Were you assaulted on those occasions again?

MR JWAYI: No, we were not assaulted.

MR STANDER: What did they expect you to do on the following days?

MR JWAYI: They wanted me to work with them to be the informer and when I realised it’s that they wanted us to confirm what they were saying so that we should be state witnesses so that those who were in the leadership should be - when they were charged, we should be state witnesses.

MR STANDER: Were you state witnesses?

MR JWAYI: Yes, they told us that we were state witnesses therefore they were not going to charge us, the charges were against China and Oupa.

MR STANDER: You were released at a later stage?

MR JWAYI: After they were acquitted we were released.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions to this witness.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

ADV DE JAGER: It is not clear to me whether he gave evidence or testified in court.

&#9;Did you testify in court?

MR JWAYI: No. I was behind on the list so that those who were a little bit younger would come later. The third person was made a state witness. The second and the third, they didn’t go on with the case.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Visser on record. I have a difficulty now because obviously haven’t had an opportunity of - not being pre-warned, to have discussed this issue with Mr Kopie for whom I appear in relationship to this client, this witness. I don't think I could sensibly cross-examine him right now Mr Chairman. 

&#9;I don’t know whether you want to allow the other persons around to ask their questions perhaps, but I will need time to go through the record to see what Mr Ngo and Mr Motsamai might have said about Mr Kopie being present, in order to bring that to your attention if it’s important.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

MR MEMANI: No questions Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS.

MR BRINK: No questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, Mr Visser wants to stand down. I don’t think he’s going to ask a great many questions of this witness that will effect you or anybody. Can we go on with another witness?

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I must confess that I have not prepared any other testimony, I did not think that we would go through the evidence this quickly. We might perhaps just fit another witness in if I could just quickly consult.

JUDGE NGOEPE: ...[inaudible] the problem this morning, you’ve started at 10 o’clock and you had no problems with the question of your fees.

MR STANDER: I’m sorry, I did not follow.

JUDGE NGOEPE: I was under the impression that had we not had problems with regards to the question of your fees, you would have been able to start at 10 o’clock. Did you anticipate that from 10 o’clock until now we would deal with only three or four witnesses?

MR STANDER: Yes Mr Chair. If you look at the record, we were much longer with other witnesses in another sitting. A certain witness took a whole day for example and on that basis I did not prepare.

JUDGE NGOEPE: ...[inaudible] Mr Stander.

MR STANDER: I’m sorry, I did not hear what you said.

JUDGE NGOEPE: It’s a very, very wrong of running and preparing for a trial, especially a running trial, a trial which should go on for weeks.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I have told you, due to the fact that the previous witnesses took hours and hours, I did not think in my wildest dream that we would be able to fit in more than three witnesses in one day and if I made a mistake I apologise.

JUDGE NGOEPE: You made a mistake because you can’t take the previous rate, regarding to how witnesses were dealt with and think that the whole trial from that point onwards will be run on the same basis and then prepare only a handful of witnesses for a whole day.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, I asked you just to adjourn for a moment so that I can consult with some of the witnesses who are present in court. It will take 10 minutes then we’ll be back and then we can put the evidence before you. With the greatest respect, can we continue on this basis?

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible] Alright, we’ll adjourn for a few minutes. Please be as quick as you can.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR STANDER: She indicated that she will testify in Xhosa.

INTERPRETER: The witness is uttering something but the microphone is not on.

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, the witness is blind.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Can the witness please stand.

MS JACOBS: I can hear, thank you.

MR BRINK: Can you hear me Mrs Jacobs, can you hear me being translated into Xhosa? Can you hear that?

MS JACOBS: Yes, I can hear Sir.

MR STANDER: Ms Jacobs, is it correct that you were also one of the 19 persons who tried to skip the country when you were arrested at Ladybrand?

MS JACOBS: That is correct.

MR STANDER: Is it also correct that after you were taken to the police station at Ladybrand, that you were handed over to the security police there?

MS JACOBS: That is correct.

MR STANDER: And also that you were transferred to Bloemfontein on the next day?

MS JACOBS: That is correct.

MR STANDER: At that stage you were still a student?

MS JACOBS: Yes, I was a student?

MS JACOBS: In which school were you?

MS JACOBS: That is Lekulong Secondary School.

MR STANDER: In which standard were you?

MS JACOBS: Standard eight Sir.

MR STANDER: What were you to go and do there in Maseru?

MS JACOBS: We were skipping the country.

MR STANDER: Why?

MS JACOBS: We were ...[inaudible] difficult conditions, we were arrested without doing anything. You’d know that at any time the police would arrive, then they would do anything they like with you, so we were running away from government of apartheid.

MR STANDER: Alright. After you were at the security branch at Ladybrand, you were transferred to Bloemfontein?

MS JACOBS: That is correct.

MR STANDER: What happened to you when you arrived in Bloemfontein? Where were you taken?

MS JACOBS: We started at Ramkraal police station. They took us to Park Road police station and we were not welcomed and afterwards we were taken to Fountain Street. We found the members of the security police waiting for us.

MR STANDER: Tell me, was Mr Motsamai and Ngo known to you? Did you know them at that stage?

MS JACOBS: Yes, I knew them very well.

MR STANDER: Were they members of the group who welcomed you there in Fountain Street?

MS JACOBS: There was no policemen who was not present, all of them were there.

MR STANDER: Where you taken?

MS JACOBS: When we arrived there we were taken through the stairways up to the 5th floor, that is the floor which had a kitchen, from there we were taken various rooms where we were interrogated. 

MR STANDER: ...[inaudible]

MS JACOBS: I lost my sight in 1990 on the 21st of March which was the commemoration for Sharpeville shooting.

MR STANDER: Where were you taken from the kitchen?

MS JACOBS: All of us were taken to the kitchen, we were not able to all of us go in there. Oupa Makubalo, Monisa Mtambu and others were not present in the kitchen. We were made to settle in the kitchen and then we were taken one by one from the kitchen by those police who were there.

MR STANDER: Where were you taken and by whom?

MS JACOBS: I was taken to Mr Erasmus’s room. I was called by Mr Tswametsi and then he called me to Mr Erasmus’s office.

MR STANDER: What did you do there?

MS JACOBS: That is where I was questioned about who was responsible to influence us to go leave. Then I was clapped and then they said Oupa, Monasi, were the ones who influenced us to skip the country, that is where I was slapped.

MR STANDER: Who slapped you?

MS JACOBS: All of them who were in that room. When you arrive in that room they would cover your face with a tube. In many instances when you are assaulted you would not know who took part in that and then sometimes you’d be dizzy but I know that Tswametsi and Motsamai and Erasmus were there.

MR STANDER: You do not know what each one of them individually did but you know they were in the office?

MS JACOBS: Yes, that is correct. They were in the room but I would not know who did what because I was covered in the fact with a tube.

MR STANDER: Until what time did these assaults continue?

MS JACOBS: I’m not able to estimate the duration but it was some time because after they removed the tube they would continue with the interrogation.

MR STANDER: Till what time that day were you there at Fountain Street?

MS JACOBS: We took the whole day there. We left there around 10 o’clock at night. They took us then to the cells at Glen.

MR STANDER: Were you taken back to Fountain Street the next day?

MS JACOBS: We were only tortured that day and then from there we stayed at the cells. We were only taken there when we were taken to court.

MR STANDER: You were only later released?

MS JACOBS: Yes, that is true, we were released and all of us went back home.

MR STANDER: Were you also a state witness?

MS JACOBS: They said to us were are amongst those who were state witnesses but we didn’t appear in court. Others, they’d ...[indistinct] but they said we - I was one of the state witnesses against Oupa.

MR STANDER: Why did you lose your sight?

MS JACOBS: I was shot by the police.

MR STANDER: You don’t know who it was, am I right?

MS JACOBS: No, they were ...[inaudible] policemen.

MR STANDER: Can you remember when that was?

MS JACOBS: It was on the 21st of March 1990.

MR STANDER: I have no further questions to this witness.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Visser on record. We have the same difficulty here, this is brand new evidence about this particular person and we didn’t have an affidavit of her either. We would need to just get some instructions Mr Chairman.

MR DU PLESSIS: We have no questions Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any questions?

MR MEMANI: I beg your pardon Mr Chairman, I did not hear your response to Mr Visser.

CHAIRPERSON: He stood down. We then dealt with Mr du Plessis.

MR MEMANI: As the Chair pleases.

&#9;Now Ms Jacobs, you told us how you were assaulted and interrogated presumably on the 6th of April 19 - was it ‘85/’86?

MS JACOBS: 1986.

MR MEMANI: And we were told by Mr Motsamai that people were interrogated on one floor and at a later stage they were taken to another floor where they were interrogated by fairly senior policemen who were specialising with MK. 

&#9;Has that been interpreted?

Now, is it your recollection that you were taken to one floor and then to a floor higher?

MS JACOBS: It depends. I went to the room next door to the kitchen. We were taken to various rooms but we occupied all the rooms, it depends which floor you were taken.

MR MEMANI: And you do not have a clear recollection of how long you saw Mr Motsamai on that day?

MS JACOBS: I don’t remember well because we were scared and all of us were assaulted, you wouldn’t concentrate who was there. The person whom I remember is Ngo whom I saw up till 6 o’clock. All the rooms were occupied by us, by detainees.

MR MEMANI: Those are my questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MEMANI

MR MEMANI: Mr Chair, may I get instructions?

MR BRINK: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

JUDGE NGOEPE: Am I correct in thinking that when you were removed from Fountain to that police station that you said, the Glen or something, were the ladies transported separately from the gentleman?

MS JACOBS: Yes, we were separated from the gentlemen or the boys.

JUDGE NGOEPE: So when you speak of being taken away from Fountain at about 10 o’clock in the evening, are you referring to the group of you young ladies only?

MS JACOBS: We young ladies were taken to the Glen during that night at 10 o’clock.

JUDGE NGOEPE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VISSER: Ought the witness not to be perhaps informed that she would have attend again tomorrow Mr Chairman and the previous witness as well?

[no sound]

MR STANDER: There’s still one witness Mr Chairman, Annie Phahlane. Although I haven’t been instructed by the legal aid board as far as she is concerned up to now, I’ll take the time to lead her evidence and we can - if the legal board doesn’t, I’ll do it pro-amicably.

&#9;I call then to the witness stand Annie Phahlane.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: She will testify in South Sotho Mr Chair. 

ANNIE PHAHLANE: (sworn states)

MR STANDER: Ms Phahlane, were you also one of the group of 19 who were arrested when you tried to skip the country on your way to Maseru?

MS PHAHLANE: That is correct Sir.

MR STANDER: How old were you at that stage?

MS PHAHLANE: I was around 18 years old.

MR STANDER: Which school did you attend? 

MS PHAHLANE: Vulamasango.

MR STANDER: Why did you try to skip the country?

MS PHAHLANE: It’s because of living without rest. That is you have - something has been done, even though you were not present during that particular activity, the police would come and arrest you. Then I thought it would be better if I skipped because I was not saying peacefully at home, then even at home I was chased away because they were tired of being knocked at by the police because of political activities.

MR STANDER: Of which political organisation were you a member at that stage?

MS PHAHLANE: I was a member of COSAS.

MR STANDER: Tell me, after you were arrested at Ladybrand, where were you taken?

MS PHAHLANE: We were taken to Ramkraal, we were not welcome and then we were taken to Park Road, we were not welcome again and then at Fountain we found the police waiting for us.

MR STANDER: Can you still remember who of these policemen were present?

MS PHAHLANE: Yes.

MR STANDER: Can I put it to you this way ...[intervention]

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I really - I should have objected to this, I didn’t realise my learned friend was going to do it every time, he’s leading the witness on the names of the two applicants and with great respect, it doesn’t take for enhancing the credibility of his own witnesses and it’s a leading question. 

&#9;He can just as well ask her for the names Mr Chairman and if she can’t remember it then obviously you’ll be in a better position to decide about her credibility. I would really ask my learned friend not to lead all the witnesses on the names of people.

MR STANDER: Can you tell us which policemen were present when you were brought into Fountain Street?

MS PHAHLANE: When we were there, there were many, even that we found them waiting outside waiting for us.

MR STANDER: Can you remember some of the names of some of the policemen who were there?

MS PHAHLANE: Yes, that is true.

MR STANDER: Can you please give us these names?

MS PHAHLANE: Do you mean the police whom I recognised and they were there?

MR STANDER: Correct, yes.

MS PHAHLANE: Mamome, Motsamai, Ngo, Mr Tswametsi, Mr Erasmus, du Plooy, there were many, Meningwa was there, Melisi was there.

MR STANDER: ...[indistinct]

INTERPRETER: The interpreters did not hear the last question.

MS PHAHLANE: We were taken to Glen, we were taken inside the building, then we were taken to Glen at night when we were going to sleep.

MR STANDER: When you arrived at Fountain Street, where were you taken?

MS PHAHLANE: We were taken inside, we went through the stairways, then we went to the kitchen, then from there they separated us to various places which we did not know. Then when we arrived at the kitchen some of us were called to various rooms.

MR STANDER: Can you remember where you were called?

MS PHAHLANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STANDER: Can you tell us where?

MS PHAHLANE: I was called by Mr Erasmus. I returned later after he interrogated me, after he slapped me. I went to the second room, I was slapped by Ngo and he was together with Motsamai and Meningwa.

MR STANDER: Were you only assaulted in this way on those two occasions?

MS PHAHLANE: We were taken in many instances. I think for a week or two weeks we were taken in the afternoon or in the morning and then they would assault us. Even at Mr du Plooy I was taken to, he showed me various photos and asked my why was I able to try to skip because they tried to arrest me again. 

&#9;I was detained for three days after being arrested by other people who tried to skip the country. They said how did I go with those people whilst I was together with them previously then I ...[inaudible]

MR STANDER: Tell me, which policemen that you can remember were present or took part in the assault on you?

MS PHAHLANE: Mr Erasmus and Ngo and Motsamai and Mamome. 

MR STANDER: What did Erasmus do to you?

MS PHAHLANE: He blindfolded me with a tube, then he brought the tube with water and fastened me on the head. After that I was kicked by a number of people and when I opened my eyes I could see that it was himself and Ngo but I felt there were many, there were more than two whilst they were assaulting me because I was lying on the floor and I was being kicked. And when they removed the tube you would not be able to see because you will be drowsy then.

MR STANDER: What did Ngo do to you?

MS PHAHLANE: He held me on the neck, then he slapped me, then I nearly fell on the ground, then I sat on the chair.

MR STANDER: And Motsamai?

MS PHAHLANE: He was slapping me.

MR STANDER: Behalwe die drie persone wat u nou genoem het, was daar iemand anders wat u ook aangerand het?

MS PHAHLANE: Mr du Plooy yes, he did take part in the assault with open hands whilst I was in his office. We stayed the whole day there in his office and when you tried to get dressed somebody would come and pick you up and take you to his office. When I arrived in his office he blindfolded me with a tube, he made me lie on the mattress and then he pressed me down. Whilst you are fastened with that tube you are not able to inhale or exhale.

MR STANDER: How many consecutive days were you taken to Fountain Street?

MS PHAHLANE: We were taken the following day from Glen to Fountain, then after two days again we were taken. And then at times after three days we would be taken from Glen to Fountain.

MR STANDER: Did you sustain any injuries due to the assault on you?

MS PHAHLANE: I removed some of my teeth whilst I was in the cell.

MR STANDER: Why did you loose your teeth?

MS PHAHLANE: Because of the assault.

MR STANDER: What happened thereafter that cause that you were released?

MS PHAHLANE: After that, they told us that we would testify in court against Oupa and Mongateni and China. They said to us we were going to be state witnesses but we didn’t give evidence in court. We were only told that they’ve concluded the case, then we were released without appearing in court.

MR STANDER: Were you present or do you know of any other incidents in which Motsamai and Ngo were involved after this as far as you were concerned?

MS PHAHLANE: No. Even before when I was arrested for this particular case I was arrested before. Mr Motsamai and Mamome used to be there when I was fetched.

MR STANDER: Were you then assaulted at that incident?

MS PHAHLANE: No, they would assault me when we arrived at Fountain, not whilst I was at home.

MR STANDER: No further questions to this witness.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STANDER

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Visser on record. My position unfortunately with this witness is exactly the same I’m afraid, that I would have to reserve until tomorrow my cross-examination Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

JUDGE NGOEPE: Mr Visser, what are you - are you reserving cross-examination in regard to allegations by the witnesses against those people? Because as far as the circumstances of the events are concerned, they have been fairly canvassed in the past and I believe you’re not reserving cross-examination with regard to those issues but rather specifically with regard to ...[inaudible]

MR VISSER: You’re absolutely right Mr Chairman, it’s not my intention I think, as has been indicated today, to go into the incidents in detail. In fact Mr Chairman, I’m hoping that I might be able to be of assistance to you by either showing, pointing to perhaps pages on record which may be of assistance to you. 

&#9;But I can make a blanket suggestion to the witness right now - to all of them, that my clients deny it. What we’re rather hoping for is to be of a little bit more assistance to you Mr Chairman.

MR MEMANI: No questions M’Lord.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MEMANI

MR BRINK: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman. 

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR STANDER: Mr Chair, we have no further witnesses here. I cannot take the matter further than that today.

CHAIRPERSON: ...[inaudible]

MR BRINK: 9 o’clock Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn till 9 o’clock. ...[totally inaudible]

[Complete end of hearing totally inaudible]

HEARING ADJOURNS

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