 

&#9;1&#9;N FLEPU 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 19.11.96&#9;NAME: NTSIKELELO DUGMORE FLEPU

CASE: EAST LONDON - BISHO MASSACRE II

DAY 2

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MR POTGIETER: We are going to conclude this session with the testimony of the last three witnesses. Reverend Xundu.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairman. I want to request Mr Chairman that we include a person who beyond his means was not able to be present when he was balled earlier and that is Ntsikelelo Dugmore Flepu who is now present. Jameson Phuphani, Thozama Samson Mejane and Ntsikelelo Mxoli.

NTSIKELELO DUGMORE FLEPU: (sworn states)

MTHUTHUZELI JAMESON PHUPHANI: (sworn states)

THOZAMA SAMSON MEJANE: (sworn states)

NTSIKELELO MXOLI: (sworn states)

MR POTGIETER: Thank you Reverend Xundu. Can I just at this stage ask to be excused unfortunately from further proceedings. The time has caught up with us unfortunately. Dr Ramashala and myself have to be back in Cape Town by tomorrow and in order to be able to do that we need to leave unfortunately. As usual it was wonderful to be here. Quite a pleasure to share the panel with you and to have acted up to this stage as the Chairperson of the proceedings. I think you very much for that. It's always a very, very special experience to be in this region. Thank you for that.

REV XUNDU: Chairperson I would like to respond by thanking you for agreeing to Chair this two day hearing. I 

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particularly requested you to do so because of the difficulty I feel whenever I have to deal with the Bisho Massacre event and how closely I was associated with the developments which were trying to avoid it. I wish to thank you Chairperson for the very dignified and able manner in which you have Chaired over these two days. You brought into our hearings your special gifts in terms of patience and tolerance, and we are indeed indebted to you for the smooth way in which these last two days, which were indeed very difficult have been so ably handled. We record our deep sense of gratitude and appreciation.

&#9;We would like also to thank Dr Ramashala and in absentia Hlengiwe Mkhizi also for their participation and for their contribution to this hearing. 

&#9;Unfortunately if you are going to catch a flight you will have to leave now and we have to take leave of you, not because - we would have loved to have ended this thing properly with you in the Chair. Thank you very much,

CHAIRMAN AND DR RAMASHALA LEAVE THE HEARING

REV XUNDU: Okay, over to Ntsiki Sandi.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. I will start with Mr Ntsikelelo Dugmore Flepu. Mr Flepu where were you shot on that day?

MR FLEPU: I was shot on my back and the bullet penetrated and came through the shoulder.

MR SANDI: How old were you at the time you were shot in 1992?

MR FLEPU: I was born in 1975, I don't remember how old I was in 1992.

MR SANDI: Were you at school or what were you doing at the time?

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MR FLEPU: I was at school.

MR SANDI: Are you still at school at the present moment?

MR FLEPU: Yes I am still at school.

MR SANDI: Were you disturbed in your studies due to this?

MR FLEPU: Yes I was disturbed Sir.

MR SANDI: Can you please explain.

MR FLEPU: I have a difficulty because my health is disturbing me in my studies. I spent some time in hospital and I don't have strength.

MR SANDI: Did you get any treatment?

MR FLEPU: No.

MR SANDI: Didn't you go to hospital or a doctor?

MR FLEPU: I was at Frere Hospital on the day I was shot and that was the last time.

MR SANDI: What is your request to this Commission today?

MR FLEPU: I want the Commission to help me in my medication and my treatment. 

MR SANDI: You mean you don't get any treatment and you need treatment?

MR FLEPU: Yes I don't get any treatment Sir.

MR SANDI: Are there any hospitals or clinic in your area?

MR FLEPU: There is a clinic Sir.

MR SANDI: Can you please explain to us about the treatment you are requiring?

MR FLEPU: When I am not feeling well I usually go to the clinic and they give me a rubbing stuff, but it doesn't help me. They don't give me any medicines there.

MR SANDI: Is that all you want to say Mr Flepu?

MR FLEPU: Yes Sir I have a difficulty, I can't even afford to go to a hospital because there is a lot of money required there and my parents do not have this money.

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MR SANDI: Who are you staying with at home?

MR FLEPU: I stay with my mother and my father.

MR SANDI: What are they doing?

MR FLEPU: My father is looking for a job, my mother is a housewife.

MR SANDI: Is that all you want to say Mr Flepu?

MR FLEPU: Yes Sir that's all.

MR SANDI: Did you go to any attorneys, Mr Smith?

MR FLEPU: Yes I did Sir.

MR SANDI: What was the outcome of this?

MR FLEPU: They are still busy with my case, that's what they told me.

MR SANDI: There is no result or outcome for this case?

MR FLEPU: No not yet. 

MR SANDI: Thank you. I will hand over to the Chairperson.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Flepu.

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&#9;5&#9;M PHUPHANI

MTHUTHUZELI JAMESON PHUPHANI:

MS CRICHTON: Thank you Mr Chairman. I am sorry that you have had to wait such a long time. I believe that you are here today to tell us about how you were at the Bisho stadium, in fact you were approaching the stadium when you were shot in your left upper arm. The statement states that the bullet went in the front and went out the back, is that correct?

MR PHUPHANI: Yes that's correct.

MS CRICHTON: I'd like you to tell us how it has affected your arm, what is the situation with your arm now?

MR PHUPHANI: My arm is not working normally.

MS CRICHTON: Do you get any kind of treatment for your arm?

MR PHUPHANI: No I don't get treatment except the one I got in Frere Hospital, that was the last time I got treatment. When I have pain I buy Panados or Disprins and I use them all the time.

MS CRICHTON: Is your arm badly enough injured for you not to be able to work anymore?

MR PHUPHANI: My arm is very painful and I cannot use it properly and it's affecting me because I cannot work because of it.

MS CRICHTON: After the incident did you approach any attorney?

MR PHUPHANI: No I didn't approach any attorneys.

MS CRICHTON: I believe you have five children is that correct?

MR PHUPHANI: Yes I have five children.

MS CRICHTON: And you have asked in your statement that the TRC would recommend that there be assistance given to you 

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for the education of these children?

MR PHUPHANI: Yes, I requested the TRC to try and assist me with my children and to assist me to get a pension because my wife is supporting me, I cannot work and she is selling to support the family.

MS CRICHTON: We have noted that. Now is there anything else that you wish to tell the Commission about that event, or any statement you wish to make?

MR PHUPHANI: I would like the Commission to help me to my request I have already put forward if that is possible because there is no one supporting me, it's only my wife's business that is supporting us.

MS CRICHTON: Mr Phuphani I thank you and I hand you back to the Chairperson.

REV FINCA: Thank you and we will take the next one.

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&#9;7&#9;T MEJANE

THOZAMA SAMSON MEJANE:

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairman. I would like to lead and help Mr Mejane in his statement. Mr Mejane we will now ask you questions, in which clan are you?

MR MEJANE: I am from the Stathu(?) clan Sir.

REV XUNDU: We have heard the story of that day Sir and you are from Mngqaba in Debe Nek here in the Eastern Cape?

MR MEJANE: Yes that is correct.

REV XUNDU: Please tell us shortly how you were injured Sir.

MR MEJANE: I cannot hear with my one ear, my one ear is deaf and I cannot hear with this ear. My other arm is not working.

REV XUNDU: Where were you at this time? Were you in the stadium?

MR MEJANE: No I was approaching the stadium.

REV XUNDU: Were you with the people who were marching?

MR MEJANE: Yes I was with the people who were marching, I was in the march.

REV XUNDU: And the bullet damaged your ear?

MR MEJANE: Yes it damaged my ear, I can't hear with it properly.

REV XUNDU: And what happened to your left arm?

MR MEJANE: My left arm is not working properly.

REV XUNDU: Did you go to any attorneys because other people approached attorneys to get compensation?

MR MEJANE: No I was not aware of that. I didn't know that people were going to the attorneys.

REV XUNDU: So in other words you didn't go to any attorneys?

MR MEJANE: No I didn't.

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&#9;8&#9;M PHUPHANI

REV XUNDU: How do you survive now Sir, where are you working?

MR MEJANE: I am not working Sir, I am at home. I am a farmer and I support myself through that. 

REV XUNDU: So Sir what is your request to this Commission?

MR MEJANE: I want my children to be educated.

REV XUNDU: How many children do you have?

MR MEJANE: I have five children.

REV XUNDU: Do they still have a mother?

MR MEJANE: No, their mother has passed away.

REV XUNDU: How old is the first one?

MR MEJANE: The first one was born in 1970.

REV XUNDU: So you want the Commission to help you, to assist you with the request you have put forward?

MR MEJANE: Yes.

REV XUNDU: I hand over to you Mr Chairperson.

REV FINCA: Thank you and we will take the last one.

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&#9;9&#9;N MXOLI

NTSIKELELO MXOLI:

REV FINCA: Reverend Xundu.

REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mxoli what is your clan name?

MR MXOLI: Tshawe.

REV XUNDU: You were born in King Williamstown at Ngqaba. You are 34 years of age.

MR MXOLI: Yes Sir.

REV XUNDU: Please tell us about the march, how were you injured?

MR MXOLI: I was shot towards my backside. I was in the march going towards the stadium.

REV XUNDU: Did you go to hospital?

MR MXOLI: Yes I went to Frere Hospital.

REV XUNDU: Were you treated there?

MR MXOLI: Yes I was treated.

REV XUNDU: Are you still under treatment?

MR MXOLI: No I am not. But they had said that if my leg starts aching I must go to hospital.

REV XUNDU: It seems like a lot of you went to attorneys, did you go?

MR MXOLI: I went, I am still going to the attorneys.

REV XUNDU: What did they say?

MR MXOLI: They said that they are waiting for a reply from the Defence Force.

REV XUNDU: What do you do for a living?

MR MXOLI: I work at Mdantsane with the taxis.

REV XUNDU: Are you a taxi man?

MR MXOLI: It is not my taxi, it is just a small car. I force onto it because my family is looking up to me.

REV XUNDU: Do you have a wife?

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MR MXOLI: Yes I do.

REV XUNDU: How many children?

MR MXOLI: Two children.

REV XUNDU: What would your request be to the Commission today?

MR MXOLI: I request that my children would be helped with their education even though they have not started school yet. I also have siblings that look up to me.

REV XUNDU: How many?

MR MXOLI: There are two that are at school.

REV XUNDU: Is your wife not working?

MR MXOLI: No.

REV XUNDU: Do you have another request besides that one?

MR MXOLI: I need treatment because my leg is not functioning well. If perhaps I could get treatment so that my leg functions well.

REV XUNDU: We have a Chairperson who is recording these that will put them forward to our State President. I will give over to the Chairperson.

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EAST LONDON HEARING&#9;TRC/EASTERN CAPE

&#9;11&#9;T MEJANE

REV FINCA: Ms Maya?

MS MAYA: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mejane please come closer to the mike, I am going to ask you a few questions, I need clarity. When we spoke earlier on I thought you said that you were in an accident, you were not actually going to the march, you had gone to ask for help at a certain office and then you got injured is that so?

MR MEJANE: Yes it is so.

MS MAYA: Could you elaborate what happened exactly to you that day.

MR MEJANE: I was going to the office at the magistrate.

MS MAYA: Where was this?

MR MEJANE: This was at Hlekse(?). The officers were closed and then I went to the hiking spot. There were three queues, people were going to the march at Bisho. I was told to get onto the taxi because if I would not get on they said that I was an informer. That is how I got shot. I don't even know if I was shot actually because it just became hot.

MS MAYA: Do you remember these people that forcefully put you on a taxi?

MR MEJANE: No I do not remember them.

MS MAYA: Sir you said we can't even get details from the hospital that actually give proof and confirm that you were injured on that day, is that so?

MR MEJANE: Yes it is so. 

MS MAYA: Where did you get help as someone who had been injured?

MR MEJANE: I went to a witchdoctor because I was too scared because people were being shot at - people were neglected at the hospital who had been shot.

MS MAYA: So up to now you had not been attended to by a 

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doctor in actual fact?

MR MEJANE: Yes.

MS MAYA: As a person who had been injured to you think that you need help from a doctor?

MR MEJANE: No not anymore because I got satisfied with the witchdoctor's treatment.

MS MAYA: Do you use traditional medicine?

MR MEJANE: Yes I do.

REV FINCA: Thank you very much to all of you. You are the last people who are giving us evidence in this hearing of the Bisho Massacre. We are closing up now.

&#9;Thank you very much for your patience. I am sure that your patience today and yesterday and the things that you tolerated perhaps if I were in your place I would not have been able to tolerate all these things. You underwent a lot of pain in these past two days. Thank you very much.

&#9;I would like to say that the Commission has endeavoured after the first hearing at Bisho to liaise with the attorneys that are handling these claims. We hope that the people who have not been successful with their claims would be helped now that we have liaised with the attorneys. Those people who did not put forward claims I think that as a Commission we will take that up as well.

&#9;I want to say to all of you, and all those who gave evidence here in these past two days, and those who gave evidence in the first hearing at Bisho, even though there is nothing much we can do, because we put forward your requests to the President, even though as a Commission there is nothing much we can do, at the end of the day we would like to say as a Commission that our respect for you and also to say as a Commission that you will always be the brave 

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people of this area. You are the heroes. People who died in Bisho in 1992 caused that the Codesa would start again.

&#9;Thank you very much. We salute you. 

&#9;This is the end of the hearing of the Bisho Massacre. I do not want to delay you. I would like to thank the Mayor and also the Council members. First of all I would like to thank the Mayor for attending the proceedings and also the deputy mayor. We thank you very much for having granted us this facility. We thank the South African Police for the security that they have provided for this hearing, especially today when things became very tense. 

&#9;I would like to thank the technicians, the interpreters, the media persons. I would like to thank our own staff members and members of the panel. 

&#9;I thank all of you that have been left behind. Thank you for your patience during the second hearing here in Bisho. I now close the hearing.

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