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ON RESUMPTION: 15TH JUNE 1999 - DAY 15
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 ON RESUMPTION: 15TH JUNE 1999 - DAY 14

F J PIENAAR: (s.u.o.)

MR PINSLOO: Mr Chairman, we concluded the evidence of Pienaar yesterday, may he be excused?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may place on record, the sister of the later Keith McFadden, Patricia McFadden is present here today. I've had an opportunity to consult with her. There are one or two aspects that I feel I need to put to Mr Pienaar, with your leave. I request that I'm allowed to re-open my cross-examination of Mr Pienaar.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we anticipated you were going to ask questions on some aspects, perhaps not on this aspect. I can see no objection to your clarifying this though.

&#9;I take it Mr du Plessis knows that we're continuing today.

MR PRINSLOO: That's correct, Mr Chairman. Apparently he's trying to be excused from where he is presently engaged, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Pienaar, you stated yesterday in your evidence to us that there were two targets in a sense that were -Sir, are you ready? Can you - okay fine. ... that there were two targets that were identified, one was Edgar and the other one was Mr Nyanda, and that no mention was made of Mr McFadden, at the planning stage, is that correct?

MR PIENAAR: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. Well Mr Cronje in his evidence to us also mentioned a person by the name of Cecil, who they had anticipated would be present with Mr Nyanda.

MR PIENAAR: Cyril is the same person as Mr Lawrence. That is an MK name which he used.

MS PATEL: Well in terms - it wasn't Cyril, Sir, it was Cecil, unless the translation was incorrect.

MR PIENAAR: No, Chairperson, I know Mr Lawrence's MK name as Cyril and not Cecil. I do not know anybody by the name of Cecil.

MS PATEL: He also states - Mr Cronje also states that the instruction from Brigadier Schoon was that Mr Nyanda was to be taken out and that the instruction was that they go to - well he goes to Swaziland to establish where Nyanda resided and where he operated from and then to eliminate him, and then subsequent to that, information had come that Cecil or Cyril was also involved with Mr Nyanda, and that this information was then relayed back to Brigadier Schoon.

MR PIENAAR: I don't know what the nature of the discussion was between Mr Schoon and Mr Cronje. I don't know what the orders were which Brigadier Schoon gave to Mr Cronje.

MS PATEL: Okay. The information about Cecil however, or Cyril, would that have come from you?

MR PIENAAR: The information about the persons who resided in the house, namely Mr Nyanda and Mr Lawrence, was information that we gathered.

MS PATEL: Alright. And this is from your source within the Swazi Police, or was this from someone else?

MR PIENAAR: It was gathered by means of informers.

MS PATEL: The questions was Sir, was it from sources within the Swazi Police or from someone else?

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, the witness has clearly stated that this was obtained from informers and his evidence yesterday was that the Swaziland Police were not his informers and it is clear that it was an informer who was not a member of the Swaziland Police.

MS PATEL: With respect Honourable Chairperson, the applicant has also informed us in his evidence yesterday that he was informed by somebody that he knew within the Swaziland Police, as to what had happened to Edgar, subsequent to the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he said he told them that he'd gone to the police and reported the attack on the house.

MR PIENAAR: That is correct, and I liaised as a friend and I received the information there.

MS PATEL: My instructions are to request from you Sir, the detail of who this person is that you liaised with in the Swazi Police.

MR PIENAAR: I cannot do that.

MS PATEL: You realise of course Sir, that one of the grounds upon which amnesty can be denied is if you do not make full disclosure to us?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it of interest in his amnesty application, to know of a policeman who in those days was assisting the South African Police, but who, if that was now disclosed, might find himself in grave difficulties?

MS PATEL: With respect Honourable Chairperson, it is of interest to the McFadden family, as to who specifically in the Swaziland Police was assisting or colluding with the applicants here.

MR PRINSLOO: With respect, Mr Chairman, these facts, how are they relevant to this particular issue? It's an issue that occurred outside the borders of South Africa. As you indicated Mr Chairman, with respect, this person's life may be in jeopardy and how is it going to take this matter further? Is this in dispute, that this information was relayed to Mr Pienaar by a member of the Swazi Police? 

&#9;Is there such instruction which my learned friend Ms Patel now has from the particular interested party? I don't understand these particular instructions. But the relevant facts here, Mr Chairman, with respect, does not pertain to such an issue which is now being canvassed by Ms Patel.

ADV SANDI: I may have misunderstood Mr Pienaar on this, but I thought what he said yesterday, concerning this person from the Swazi Police, this person was not really an informer but someone who had relayed the information to him that Lawrence had run up to the police station to report what had happened. Now I don't know what your difficulty is, I mean if you have to say who this person is. He was telling you that Lawrence had gone to report the incident at the police station. We're not talking here about an informer.

MR PIENAAR: It is a friend of mine, Chairperson, and I cannot say here that it went through to Swaziland to his heads and that he told me what happened there on that particular night.

ADV SANDI: You didn't have a mischievous - if one can put it that way, a mischievous relationship with this person, it was just a friend. What harm, what jeopardy would be suffered by this person if you just say it was so and so who was a friend of mine?

MR PIENAAR: This was information from his work to our side, and I'm not prepared to divulge his name.

ADV SANDI: But he was not your informer.

MR PIENAAR: No, he was not an informer.

MS PATEL: Do you have any knowledge as to whether the Nyanda house was raided prior to, raided by the Swazi Police, immediately prior or a day or two prior to this incident?

MR PIENAAR: No, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: My instructions are, Honourable Chairperson, that Keith McFadden had informed his brother, Gavin, that their house was in fact raided one or two days prior to this operation taking place and that all the weapons that they might have had on them, was in fact removed.

MR PIENAAR: If that was so, the Swazi Police would definitely not only have taken the weapons, but they would also have arrested the persons.

MS PATEL: Well we also know that the Swazi Police had a very good relationship with the Security Branch from here, not so?

MR PIENAAR: Yes, there was a friendship.

MS PATEL: Is it not so, Sir, that there was some measure of co-operation between yourselves and the Swazi Police in planning this operation?

MR PIENAAR: As far as I know there was not anything like that.

MS PATEL: Are you in a position to dispute it though, if there was some co-operation perhaps between someone else from the group and ...

MR PIENAAR: As I've said, I know nothing about that.

MS PATEL: So you're not in a position to dispute that?

MR PRINSLOO: With respect, Mr Chairman, if the witness is unable to say he bears any knowledge about that, how can he dispute that or acknowledge it? He doesn't know. It's not a fair question, with respect, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not a question, it's just a statement of fact, isn't it? He says:

&#9;&#9;"I have no knowledge of it"

It therefore is obvious he cannot dispute it.

MR PRINSLOO: As you please, Mr Chairman, that's correct.

MS PATEL: Sir, can you tell us - sorry, I was distracted. The information that Mr de Kock gave to us yesterday regarding Mr McFadden being a target at the planning meeting, you deny that.

MR PIENAAR: Mr McFadden was not mentioned during the planning stage, it was only Mr Nyanda and Mr Lawrence.

MS PATEL: Okay. You have no idea how it - okay, can I ask you, how many members besides those who applied for amnesty, how many were you in your group, present at the house that evening?

MR PIENAAR: Everybody who has been mentioned, Cronje, Colonel de Kock, me, Rorich, van Dyk, van Zweel, Nofomela and Bosigu.

MS PATEL: How big is this house?

MR PIENAAR: Please repeat the question.

MS PATEL: How big is the house, the premises?

MR PIENAAR: It is the usual three-bedroom residence, it's not very big. It was a prefab house.

MS PATEL: Alright. Given that there were nine people there and that the premises were an average size, it's strange that one person was allowed to escape, not so?

MR PIENAAR: It is not strange. As I have already stated and as it appeared from Colonel de Kock's affidavit, the problem was the door. Colonel de Kock had to desert his position in order to help to open the door, and if that problem hadn't arisen, then nobody would have escaped.

MS PATEL: When you had discussions with your friend from the Swazi Police, the day after the incident, can you recall whether there was any discussion as to whether this person had gone to the house as well, or whether the information was just simply that Cecil had come to the police station and had reported the incident and that was the end of that?

MR PIENAAR: No, I didn't ask whether he himself had been there, he only said that Mr Lawrence had arrived at the police station. I don't know if he himself had been there.

MS PATEL: Did the source by any chance say how long after the operation Edgar had reported or made a report to the Swazi Police?

MR PIENAAR: No, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: And if I remember correctly, did the source say to you that Cecil was unclothed at the time, that he didn't have any clothes on?

MR PIENAAR: That is correct, he was naked.

MS PATEL: Okay.

ADV SANDI: If I can come in here. Is it your who phoned this Swazi Police friend of yours or is it he who initially phoned you? How did it come about that you ended talking on the phone?

MR PIENAAR: I phoned them.

ADV SANDI: Why did you decide to phone them at the police station?

MR PIENAAR: I telephoned to have a chat and to find out what had happened regarding the incident.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MS PATEL: Did you by any chance speak to this person prior to the operation, to get information about Mr Nyanda?

MR PIENAAR: No.

MS PATEL: Because my instructions are that Edgar Hillary who was the Commissioner of Police in Swaziland at the time, had called Dorothy McFadden who is the mother of Keith McFadden, on the day of the incident and had said to her that: "I told you and I told your son that he was going get it and now you see he's got it."

MR PIENAAR: I don't know about that.

MS PATEL: It would seem however from this comment, that at least at that level they were aware of the risk of Mr McFadden being killed, not so?

MR PIENAAR: I think it was a risk for any person, even for us as well, to go to a neighbouring state and execute an operation. Unfortunately, you may have encountered a situation where the other person fired a shot and killed you. That was the situation for both sides.

MS PATEL: My instructions are also to place on record that Mr McFadden had at least six bullet holes in his head.

MR PIENAAR: I don't know, Chairperson, we fired shots, Brigadier Cronje and I. I don't know how many of those shots hit the victim, I don't know anything about that.

MS PATEL: And that he had numerous other bullet wounds on the rest of his body.

MR PIENAAR: That is possible, I don't know how many shots were fired.

MS PATEL: Can you recall how many shots you fired?

MR PIENAAR: No.

MS PATEL: What type of weapon did you use?

MR PIENAAR: If I recall correctly I had a hand carbine.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that an automatic weapon?

MR PIENAAR: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Alright. And so as to refresh my memory, he was shot in the bedroom, not so?

MR PIENAAR: That's correct.

MS PATEL: Alright. That was the same bedroom where the woman was in?

MR PIENAAR: I don't know where the woman was.

MS PATEL: Mr Cronje said to us in his amnesty hearing that she was in the same room as where Mr McFadden was shot.

MR PIENAAR: I don't about that, I simply heard later that there had been a woman in the house. I myself did not see her.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Pienaar, I heard you saying you used your passport when you entered Swaziland.

MR PIENAAR: That's correct.

MR SIBANYONI: If I heard Mr de Kock very well, in his evidence he said they crossed the border at a place other than at a border post.

MR PIENAAR: That was after the incident, that was when the border was already closed, the border gates.

MR SIBANYONI: Okay. This friend of yours, was it a person who from time to time would give your ...(indistinct) information?

MR PIENAAR: Chairperson, you could call it information, perhaps about person who had been arrested, who would give their names, whether they had any weapons and so forth, but it was never information about operations as such.

MR SIBANYONI: He's not the person you were talking about when I asked you where did your source live, when you said the source lived in Swaziland, is that a different person?

MR PIENAAR: No, those were the informers living in Swaziland and this policeman also lived in Swaziland.

ADV SANDI: Mr Pienaar, you were based at Piet Retief, not so?

MR PIENAAR: That's correct.

ADV SANDI: Did you have a person amongst yourselves with the name, Captain van Niekerk? Did you have such a person there?

MR PIENAAR: No, not with us.

ADV SANDI: Did you have a person by the name of van der Walt?

MR PIENAAR: No.

ADV SANDI: And in the other neighbouring towns, towns nearby, did they amongst themselves any persons with such names?

MR PIENAAR: In the Eastern Transvaal, Ermelo and Middelburg, there was no Captain van Niekerk as far as I can recall, neither was there a van der Walt.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR PRINSLOO: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO

WITNESS EXCUSED&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9; 

NAME:&#9;J E W VAN ZWEEL

APPLICATION NO: 5017/97

MATTER:&#9;MURDER OF K McFADDEN AND Z NYANDA

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MR PRINSLOO: The next applicant is Mr van Zweel, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may just at this point. I indicated yesterday that there might be one or two extra things that I would like to put to Mr de Kock. I'm not sure whether we should do that now or proceed. It was just basically relating to Brigadier Cronje's version to us.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think we're all in your hands. Is it likely to be anything that people would want other witnesses to deal with?

MS PATEL: No, not really.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what do you suggest?

MR HATTINGH: We have no objection to him being recalled at any stage, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think we'll deal with Mr van Zweel.

J E W VAN ZWEEL: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Mr van Zweel, you are the applicant in this matter and you have applied for amnesty with regard to this incident which had taken place in Swaziland, is that correct?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Your application appears on page 77 to 79, this is the written part. And the facts appear as Annexure A, from pages 80 to 82, and then the political background appears as Annexure B, from page 83 to page 90.

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr van Zweel, you have also had insight to the general background, which forms part of Exhibit A of these proceedings, is that correct?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct.

MR PRINSLOO: And do you reconcile yourself therewith, except for the parts that have regard to Lesotho and Botswana?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr van Zweel, on page 80 of your application, the second paragraph, the fourth line. In the second paragraph you say:

&#9;&#9;"Brigadier Cronje and Colonel E de Kock arrived at our office at Ermelo."

Is that correct?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, yes - no, Chairperson, it was our office at Oshoek.

MR PRINSLOO: So you ask that it be amended, that is was the sub-office of Ermelo at Oshoek. Do you otherwise confirm the correctness of your application?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Yes, I do, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr van Zweel, you have heard the evidence of Mr de Kock, as well as that of your colleague, the other applicant Mr Pienaar.

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: That you had rendezvoused at Oshoek and later at a hotel in Swaziland received orders from Brigadier Cronje.

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And what was the instruction at the hotel?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That we had to go to a certain house in Swaziland and eliminate Mr Nyanda and Mr Lawrence and all other persons who were in the house.

MR PRINSLOO: At that stage you were a member of the Security Branch, as a Warrant Officer stationed at Ermelo, is that correct?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Was the person, Mr Zweli Nyanda - in the investigations which you done, was he known to you?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Yes, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And the person known as Lawrence, was he ever mentioned to you or was he known to you?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Yes, he was known to me.

MR PRINSLOO: And both those persons were members of the ANC.

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: This particular evening, what would your duty be at this house?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I would go along with Brigadier Cronje and open the front door, but we could not succeed. Colonel de Kock came around, kicked the door open and they moved in.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you enter the house yourself?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, I went around the corner and stood at a door.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you fire any shots in the house?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, I did not fire any shots, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you hear that shots were fired inside the house and in the vicinity of the house?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you see that a person ran away from the house?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And in the position where you found yourself, was it possible that the person could run away and that you could not observe?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And in this action, did you hear later that persons were killed or not?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson

MR PRINSLOO: And who were those people?

MR VAN ZWEEL: It was Mr Nyanda and Mr McFadden.

MR PRINSLOO: And later, did anybody convey to you that a person had escaped from there?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And who was that person?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That was Mr Lawrence.

MR PRINSLOO: And who gave that information to you?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Mr Pienaar told me.

MR PRINSLOO: Was any information conveyed to you that this person Lawrence at a later stage, according to the ANC, was regarded as a spy?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Who told you this?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Mr Pienaar told me.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Pienaar at the time of this incident was stationed at Piet Retief.

MR VAN ZWEEL: Yes, it is a sub-branch of Ermelo.

MR PRINSLOO: You went out on one specific evening after this incident, did you reconcile yourself with the fact that you are making yourself guilty of murder, the murder of Nyanda and McFadden?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you also realise that by entering Swaziland, and that you were in possession of arms which were issued to you for an "illegal purpose"?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And at the time of this operation, did you act as a member of the South African Police, did you act as such?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And did you believe that your action was within your powers?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And at that stage you were a member of the National Party?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: At the time of this action, did you act to protect the government and the National Party, who were the government?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you receive any benefit from this operation?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, I did not, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: And you acted under the instructions of Brigadier Cronje?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Chairperson, Hattingh on record.

&#9;Mr van Zweel, I assume that there were no lights switched on in the house?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall whether there were any street lamps in the vicinity of the house?

MR VAN ZWEEL: There was a dull street lamp on the one side, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: But once you moved into the house, it must have been dark?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And things happened very quickly.

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Shots were fired with automatic weapons?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And just for the record, an automatic weapon, once you pull the trigger it shoots continuously and it could empty a magazine within a few seconds?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And you don't have any control as long as you press the trigger down, you don't have any control as to the amount of shots that you fire?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: What weapon were you armed with, Mr van Zweel?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I had a Scorpion.

MR HATTINGH: You heard that Mr de Kock said that this was a weapon of small calibre and it does not have great velocity.

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock's recollection was that you went into the house and fired shots with this Scorpion.

MR VAN ZWEEL: I did not go into the house, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you fire any shots with the Scorpion?

MR VAN ZWEEL: None at all, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: So the whole night you did not fire a single shot?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I didn't fire any shots, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: After the incident, Mr van Zweel, did you go back to the hotel?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And there was some kind of reflection held there, is that correct?

MR VAN ZWEEL: It was very quick, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Was it then known who were the persons that were killed in the house, the other person, Mr McFadden?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, it was only that - Mr Nyanda I saw when I went to the street side where the cars were parked. Mr Nyanda lay close to where the cars were, he was already dead then.

MR HATTINGH: And some of the other members and the group in general, did they not report that another person had been killed in the house?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Mention was made that another person was shot, yes.

MR HATTINGH: But none of you at that stage knew who it was?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, we did not know who it was.

MR HATTINGH: When did you find out who this person was?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Later the following day we heard who this person was.

MR HATTINGH: Where were you when you heard this?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I was at the office.

MR HATTINGH: The office, in which town?

MR VAN ZWEEL: In Ermelo.

MR HATTINGH: And if I understand you correctly, Ermelo is the headquarters of the Security Branch in that area, is that correct?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Piet Retief was a sub-branch thereof, is that correct?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And which was the one that you were attached to?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Oshoek.

MR HATTINGH: Oshoek. Is Oshoek also a sub-branch of Ermelo?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: There where you heard in Ermelo - I mean you say you heard this from Mr Pienaar?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Were any other security policemen present who had participated in the action when Mr Pienaar told you?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, it was late that afternoon, it was only myself and Mr Pienaar.

MR HATTINGH: Did you have an opportunity later to work with Mr de Kock, after that incident?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Is it possible that at a later stage when you worked together you might have discussed the Nyanda matter and that mention was made that Mr McFadden was killed during that incident?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I cannot recall anything like that, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: This incident took place 16 years ago and one's memory might be vague, is that correct?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Yes, Chairperson, it was a long time ago.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman, Julian Knight on behalf of implicated person, Nofomela. No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR KNIGHT

MS VAN DER WALT: Louisa van der Walt. No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener, Mr Chairman. No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

MR VISSER: Visser on record, Mr Chairman. I have no questions to this witness, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: B Mohlaba on record. I've got a few questions.

&#9;Mr van Zweel, at the time of this incident you were stationed at Ermelo, is that correct?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: And you mentioned that Brigadier van Zyl and Mr de Kock arrived at the Oshoek office, which was a branch office, did I get you correctly?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR PRINSLOO: No, not van Zyl, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN ZWEEL: It was not Mr van Zyl, it was Mr Cronje.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you. And this meeting, was it arranged or did they arrive without notifying you?

MR VAN ZWEEL: They arrived there at Oshoek and from Oshoek we went to a hotel in Swaziland.

MR MOHLABA: My question was, was there a prior arrangement that you're going to meet at Oshoek, then move to a hotel, or was it just, it just happened without any prior arrangement?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, we were told to go to Oshoek and from Oshoek we took our car, we left Mr Rorich's car at Oshoek and we went along with Mr Pienaar to the hotel in Swaziland.

MR MOHLABA: And can you tell us who told you to go to Oshoek?

MR VAN ZWEEL: We just received instructions from our commander to go to Oshoek.

MR MOHLABA: And who is this commander?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Our commander was Mr Deetlefs at Ermelo.

MR MOHLABA: Was any reason furnished to you why you should go to Oshoek and who you were to meet there?

MR VAN ZWEEL: It was told to us that we will receive an instruction there as soon as all of us were there.

MR MOHLABA: And you subsequently moved to a hotel in Swaziland, do you remember the name of the hotel?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Is it necessary for me to mention the hotel's name? I can, it's the Yensan Hotel in Swaziland.

MR MOHLABA: And how many of you were at the hotel at that moment?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Everybody that was named here, Brigadier Cronje, Mr de Kock, Mr Pienaar, Mr van Dyk, Mr Rorich, myself and two Askaris.

MR MOHLABA: And this - rather let me put it differently. Did you know of the existence of Zweli Nyanda and did you know of his activities before you were told to go to Oshoek?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I did, because I was stationed at the Security Branch in Ermelo.

MR MOHLABA: And what did you know about him?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That he was the Commander of the Natal Machinery.

MR MOHLABA: And before you moved to the hotel, there was no, you received no instructions or you did not view him as somebody who should be eliminated.

MR VAN ZWEEL: Discussions took place in the hotel in Swaziland.

MR MOHLABA: And after this ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Mr Mohlaba, I thought you were asking him if he viewed Mr Nyanda as a person who should be killed, before the discussion took place, but I'm not sure if he answered your question.

&#9;Before this discussion, Mr van Zweel, did you view Mr Nyanda as someone who should be killed for his activities?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No.

MR MOHLABA: And after this operation was conducted, did all of you go back to the hotel?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Please repeat that question.

MR MOHLABA: After the operation was launched, did you go back to the hotel?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: And that everybody who was involved in this operation went back to the hotel.

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: Did you hold any discussions, that is discussions ...(intervention)

MR VAN ZWEEL: We immediately prepared and we departed and we went through the fence at Oshoek.

MR MOHLABA: There was no discussion about the operation itself?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Not as far as I can recall, Mr Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: And just tell us, when to the hotel, did you go to different rooms or were you all in one place, all of you who came for the operation?

MR VAN ZWEEL: As far as I can recall, we were all together in one room.

MR MOHLABA: So if there were any discussions which were engaged in, you would have been quite aware that there were certain things that were discussed, is that not so?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: Don't you remember a mention having been made of a lady who was inside the house, who was not killed?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, that I only heard later. As I said Chairperson, I did not know that there was a woman in the house. At a later stage I heard. I can't remember whether it was a day or two afterwards that we heard that there was a woman in the house.

MR MOHLABA: And do you remember who you heard that from?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I cannot recall, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: And did you not hear this at the hotel?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No.

MR MOHLABA: And about the person who is escaped, did you hear anything about that?

MR VAN ZWEEL: This I only heard later from Mr Pienaar.

MR MOHLABA: And when late, was it at the hotel or at ...

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, it was after the hotel.

MR MOHLABA: ...(indistinct) when you were back in South Africa?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: And where was this discussion held?

MR VAN ZWEEL: If I recall correctly, it was at Oshoek or at Ermelo. I cannot recall precisely I heard that the man had escaped, because everything took place very quickly.

MR MOHLABA: Yes, I mean your discussion where it was brought to your knowledge that there's somebody who escaped. Where was - was that held at Ermelo?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Yes.

MR MOHLABA: Where precisely in Ermelo was it, at a police station?

MR VAN ZWEEL: At our offices, at the security offices in Ermelo.

MR MOHLABA: And that was brought to your attention when you were discussing this operation, or can you just explain to us how was this thing brought to your attention.

MR VAN ZWEEL: We discussed it there in the office. I cannot recall correctly, it has been many years ago. I cannot recall correctly how it came about that it was mentioned, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: And can you recall the number of person who were present when this was brought to your attention, was it the two of you or was somebody else present?

MR VAN ZWEEL: It could only have been the two of us, nobody else was there. I don't know, I cannot recall.

MR MOHLABA: As far as you can recall, was there a forum where this operation or the success thereof was discussed?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, Chairperson, I can't recall.

MR MOHLABA: And these weapons which were used to carry out this attack, did you carry them from South Africa on the night or day when you passed through the border gate to Swaziland?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Please repeat that question.

MR MOHLABA: The weapons which were used to carry out this operation, did you have, were they conveyed from South Africa into Swaziland on the day or the night when you passed through to the hotel in Swaziland?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I think Mr de Kock explained that, that the weapons were hidden. I don't know where it was hidden and how it got there.

MR MOHLABA: So the weapons were only supplied to you when you arrived in Swaziland, is that correct?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That is correct, yes Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: Where exactly in Swaziland were they distributed to you, whilst you were in the hotel?

MR VAN ZWEEL: At the Yensan Hotel.

MR MOHLABA: If the Chairperson can bear with me. Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Sir. It's Ramula Patel on record.

&#9;Sir, regarding Mr McFadden - or before we get to Mr McFadden, what were your general duties at that time, not in respect of this specific operation, but your general duties?

MR VAN ZWEEL: My work?

MS PATEL: Yes.

MR VAN ZWEEL: I operated in Swaziland as well as a security policeman, gathering of intelligence for the South African Government, and I handled sources in Swaziland as well.

MS PATEL: Okay. So did you assist Mr Pienaar in the gathering of information for this operation?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Mr Pienaar and I worked together at many times. 

MS PATEL: Okay. The question was, did you assist Mr Pienaar in the gathering of information for this operation?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. Regarding Mr McFadden, given that you were working in that area at the time, what information did you have about him, prior to the operation, if any?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Mr McFadden?

MS PATEL: Yes.

MR VAN ZWEEL: That he transported people from Maputo to Swaziland and from Swaziland to Natal. He was a courier and a collaborator with the ANC. That is the information we had from our several sources, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. And this was prior to the operation? This information you had available to you was information prior to the operation?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. From your information, were you aware that Mr McFadden might have been living with Mr Nyanda, at that time?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, I was not aware of that, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. At the planning meeting at the Swaziland Hotel, was there any discussion about Mr McFadden?

MR VAN ZWEEL: None, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay, well that's in fact what Brigadier Cronje says as well. He says the information that they had or that you all had at that stage was that Nyanda was to be eliminated and that the chances were great that Cecil would be with him because, given that they had been observed for a long period of time, whenever they were followed they knew that Cecil would be with Nyanda. Would you confirm that?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. Now do you have idea - this information that Brigadier Cronje says about Mr Nyanda being followed for quite some time and that he was held under observation, do you know where that information would have come from?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, Chairperson, the information - if I can it in the following, the information would have come from reports from Ermelo, from Piet Retief to Head Office. That is the only way in which he could have got that information, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Do you have any idea how Mr McFadden was subsequently identified as the person who had been killed in the house?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Please repeat the question.

MS PATEL: Do you have any idea how Mr McFadden was subsequently identified as the second person who was killed?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I cannot say, it must have been from the Swazis, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: But you had a discussion with Mr Pienaar about this, not so?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Mr Pienaar said that the Swazis had confirmed this, so it must have come from the Swazi Police, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. Do you have any knowledge of Mr McFadden's brother, Gavin? - Mr Keith McFadden's brother, Gavin. Does it ring a bell to you, do you know whether he was being investigated or observed by you, whether you had any information on him?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I don't know, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: When you say you don't know, as you saying that you can't recall or it's possible, it's not possible, what are you saying, Sir?

MR VAN ZWEEL: It's a long while ago and I cannot recall it.

MS PATEL: You cannot recall it. Okay, fine. Subsequent to the operation, did you or any of the group go back to the Nyanda house, not immediately after, but some time after?

MR VAN ZWEEL: After the attack?

MS PATEL: Yes.

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, I was never there again, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: My instructions are that the parents of Mr McFadden, of the late Mr Keith McFadden, had stated that from some time after the operation had taken place, that white men in a vehicle with a South African registration plate had driven around the area and had made enquiries about where the family was, where the rest of the family was. Do you bear any knowledge of this?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Chairperson, I bear no knowledge of

that. 

MS PATEL: Okay. And you say you weren't in the house where Mr McFadden was killed, you never entered the house at any stage?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. And can I just ask this, there's a curious feature about all these, well the majority of the applications that we have, that they're all worded almost identically except for a couple of sentences towards the end that are different, did you have a discussion with your co-applicants prior to the filling in of this application?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, we simply consulted our attorneys and they took statements from us.

MS PATEL: And so you can't explain why your statements are all the same?

MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, that's not quite correct, it's not all the applicants. I think ...(intervention)

MS PATEL: With respect ...(intervention)

MR VISSER: I think Ms Patel referred to the particular applicants that she's referring to, certainly the application of this witness is not identical to the that of Brigadier Schoon's, for example.

MS PATEL: I said the most, Honourable Chairperson, I didn't say all.

MR VAN ZWEEL: Chairperson, I might be able to rectify the matter. We consulted collectively with our attorneys and it may be that some of the things may have been compiled more-or-less the same. We read our affidavits and we were satisfied with our statements and we undersigned them. That's the only explanation that I can offer.

MS PATEL: Sorry Sir, did you say that you all consulted together, that there weren't individual consultations about this incident?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, we consulted with our advocates one by one and made our statements.

MS PATEL: Well then it's indeed curious that they're all phrased in exactly the same words, almost.

CHAIRPERSON: Well who is "we"? Because there seem to be a fair selection of attorneys and advocates representing applicants.

MR VAN ZWEEL: It is the group of us and the two of us, that's me and Mr Pienaar, Mr Rorich and Mr van Dyk.

MS PATEL: Okay. You say that Mr Deetlefs had given you the instruction to meet prior to going to Swaziland, not so?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Mr Deetlefs gave me the instruction that me and Mr Rorich had to depart for Oshoek and that we had to go to our office at Oshoek.

MS PATEL: Did you report back to Mr Deetlefs when you got back?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I believe that Brigadier Cronje had already done that, because he was the commander.

MS PATEL: Are you assuming that Sir, or do you know that for a fact?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I'm going according to seniority and I believe that Brigadier Cronje would have conveyed the entire story to Deetlefs. I cannot say that because I wouldn't know that.

MS PATEL: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Deetlefs was in Swaziland with you, wasn't he, pointing out the house?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, he was there and then he departed back immediately because he had other matters to attend to. He did not remain in Swaziland.

MS PATEL: Do you bear any knowledge on a raid by the Swaziland Police on the Nyanda house a day or two prior to your operation being carried out?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, none whatsoever.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

ADV SANDI: Mr van Zweel, just one thing. When you say when you saw this person who was lying outside there, you recognised him as Mr Nyanda, how did you know, had you seen him before?

MR VAN ZWEEL: I knew him very well. I knew his photo, I'd seen it almost every day of my life, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Is there any reason why you did not take part in the shooting like everyone? I understand you were standing outside.

MR VAN ZWEEL: Mr Chairperson, there was nobody on that one side and I was afraid that somebody would jump through the door that had been kicked open and if he escaped through that, which was possible because there were many people inside the house. That is why I took my position up at the corner of the house.

ADV SANDI: Sorry. Thank you for that. 

&#9;Mr Mohlaba and Ms Patel, is there any independent corroboration of this allegation about a woman who was hiding somewhere in the house? Has that been confirmed?

MR MOHLABA: Yes. Certainly Chairperson, we have been given the telephone numbers of this woman. She is in Durban and she can only be contacted after eleven, so during the adjournment we will try and call her. But the information is that indeed there was a woman who was, she was shot on the leg.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr van Zweel, if you may help me here. When crossing the - when visiting Swaziland, were you supposed to apply for a visa, explaining exactly where in Swaziland you were going?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, we just used the usual passport, you didn't need a visa for Swaziland. And our people who usually visited Swaziland and went through the border post regularly, had an extended period of time to enter and to exit, for example two to four weeks, and all you had to do was sign your name in the book, with your passport number and provide the registration number of the vehicle that you were travelling in.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you were working from inside Swaziland, gathering information.

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Now on the night of the operation, did you also return together with the team just through the border, not at the border post?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, it was over the border fence because the border post had already been closed.

MR SIBANYONI: Then your passport will show a stamp that you are still in Swaziland, how would you then return to Swaziland, because they said you are supposed to be inside not outside Swaziland?

MR VAN ZWEEL: Chairperson, I've already explained that we had stamps in our passports that we could travel back and forth, that we didn't have to stop at the customs office all the time, we just had to sign our names in a book. Now I don't know whether they kept a proper record of the book to determine who was entering and exiting, I don't know how the Swazis operated in that respect.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, before that happens, something has arisen which prompts one question on my part, if you will allow me.

&#9;Mr van Zweel, you said that you yourself did not regard Mr Nyanda as a target to be killed before the incident, if I understand you correctly. Is that correct? 

MR VAN ZWEEL: Are you saying that I did not regard him as a target?

MR VISSER: Yes, you examined by Mr Mohlaba: "Did you regard Mr Zweli Nyanda as a person who had to be killed, before this operation or this incident.

MR VAN ZWEEL: Then I answered "no".

MR VISSER: Yes, your answer was no. Thus, you deny that Mr Zweli Nyanda was a target of the Security Police?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No.

MR VISSER: You would not deny it?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No.

MR VISSER: Chairperson, and then perhaps in reply to Mr Sandi's question, this little extract from the further submissions of May 1997, which you have before you, at page 121, regarding the lady in the house, this is a report on the raid and it's in inverted commas, where the person says:

&#9;&#9;"I emerged, I then went to the house. I saw Zweli lying near the gate ..."

I'm reading from the fourth paragraph on the right-hand side at page 121.

&#9;&#9;"... and Marcel checked his pulse. He confirmed he was dead. I enquired after Fikile ..."

That appears to be the lady, Chairperson.

&#9;&#9;"... and was told that she had been heard by the neighbours after the enemy had left, asking for assistance, which she was denied and left. I then left with Marcel for the police, where I found Fikile. I reported the attack to the policeman on duty. I made my way back to the house with Marcel. I saw Keith with a bullet wound in his head, crouched in a corner. It was clear that he was dead."

And then he says:

&#9;&#9;"His travelling back with the reports had been taken by the Boers."

So there seems to be confirmation of the lady in the house, from that as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I have grave doubts as to what value one can attach to statements made by this gentleman.

MR VISSER: Yes, well yes. But it just provides additional information about the lady. That's really all. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Before that, I'm afraid I didn't quite catch the last of the answer of your question, could you put it again?

MR VISSER: My question to Mr van Zweel?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VISSER: Mr van Zweel, I want to put it to you that as other leaders of MK operated from neighbouring states, Mr Zweli Nyanda was indeed a person who was a target, in the sense that he was somebody about whom information had been gathered and it appeared that he was somebody who was a target for murder.

MR VAN ZWEEL: That is correct.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CHAIRPERSON: From the evidence we have heard, it would appear that he was someone who was very actively engaged in the freedom struggle.

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember if, when you arrived at the house that evening, somebody came out of the house and spoke to you or any of your group?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: It didn't happen?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And, I don't know if you can tell me or if we should wait to hear from your counsel later, these firearms that you had, they were issued to you as a member of the South African Police Force, is that correct, by an officer?

MR VAN ZWEEL: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you know anything about this Lawrence while you were working in Swaziland, his activities and the like?

MR VAN ZWEEL: As I have already stated, Mr Chairperson, we knew everything about Mr Lawrence's movements and activities.

MR SIBANYONI: Was he by any chance a source for the police?

MR VAN ZWEEL: No.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRINSLOO: That concludes the witnesses I intend calling, Mr Chairman. My colleague will now proceed.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Well looking at my watch, should we proceed now or should we take the adjournment now and allow her to proceed uninterruptedly after the adjournment?

MR PRINSLOO: I think we should take the adjournment, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

 

 

 

 

 

NAME:&#9;PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK

APPLICATION NO: 5013/97&#9;

MATTER:&#9;MURDER OF K McFADDEN AND Z NYANDA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

ON RESUMPTION

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, I'm Louisa van der Walt, for the record. I am now calling Paul Jacobus van Dyk.

MR MOHLABA: If I may interrupt, Chairperson. Before Mr Pienaar is excused - sorry, Chairperson, Mohlaba here. I'm sorry to interrupt. During the tea adjournment, I had an opportunity to speak with a lady called Fikile, who was in the house there and if I may be granted leave, I wanted to clarify certain aspects with Mr Pienaar.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairman, Mr Wagener is just going to call him, see if he can stop him.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

RECALL OF F J PIENAAR

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pienaar has been recalled. You can put your question.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Pienaar, did you after the raid, have an opportunity to go inside the house?

MR PIENAAR: No, Chairperson, just after the operation we left the house. I never again returned to the house after that.

MR MOHLABA: And while the operation was being carried out shortly there before, did you at any stage enter the house?

MR PIENAAR: During the operation I was inside the house, yes.

MR MOHLABA: And did you go into various bedrooms?

MR PIENAAR: I went into the one bedroom where Mr McFadden was shot, then to the front room, then to another room, where allegedly Mr Lawrence or Mr Nyanda had been in, where I found a great deal of documents in the cupboard and removed them from the cupboard.

MR MOHLABA: Were there beds in each bedroom?

MR PIENAAR: As far as I can recall, yes.

MR MOHLABA: And the condition of the beds, would you say that people had been sleeping on them or were they properly made up?

MR PIENAAR: I didn't notice that particularly.

MR MOHLABA: And the bathroom, did you go into it?

MR PIENAAR: Not at any stage.

MR MOHLABA: The weather on this particular night, was it proper, was it raining or can you just explain?

MR PIENAAR: As far as I can recall it definitely wasn't raining. Whether it was overcast is something that I cannot recall.

MR MOHLABA: And when did you learn about the presence of the woman in the house?

MR PIENAAR: The following day it was brought to my attention that there had been a woman in the house.

MR MOHLABA: Can you remember who told you about that?

MR PIENAAR: Please repeat.

MR MOHLABA: Can you remember who told you about the presence of the woman in that house?

MR PIENAAR: This was upon the information from my Swazi friend.

MR MOHLABA: So this woman was not found by any of your colleagues in the house, there's none of your colleagues who established that there was a woman who was left out in this house?

MR PIENAAR: As far as I can recall, not at all, I didn't see her.

MR MOHLABA: And had you known that there was a woman in the house, what would you have done, would you have killed her or would you have left her?

MR PIENAAR: I believe that if I'd entered the room and seen a person moving about inside the room, I would have fired at her as well.

MR MOHLABA: I have some information that there was a woman in the house and that this woman remained quiet in the house until the attackers had left and then she was taken to the police station, that's how she explained to the police what happened. She was not seen by anyone of you in the house, would you agree with that?

MR PIENAAR: I would agree with that, Chairperson, otherwise she definitely wouldn't have conveyed her story.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Well you can try again, Mr Pienaar.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, before he does. Hattingh on record. Mr de Kock brought something to my attention which I was going to question Mr van Dyk about, who presumably would also have knowledge of this aspect, but whilst Mr Pienaar is back, may I just question him about this particular aspect that Mr de Kock brought my attention to?

CHAIRPERSON: What is it?

MR HATTINGH: It's just in connection with the conversation that took place after the incident, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Pienaar, Mr de Kock tells me that you and some of the members who were involved in this operation went with Brigadier Cronje a day or two before the time to Durban Police Headquarters, do you recall this?

MR PIENAAR: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And during the journey down to Durban, the entire incident in Swaziland was also discussed.

MR PIENAAR: Yes, that is correct, because we took the documentation down to Durban and we intended to discuss this with the staff at Durban. 

MR HATTINGH: So the idea was to discuss what you had obtained during the operation, with Durban Security Police?

MR PIENAAR: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you discussed this in the car?

MR PIENAAR: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Among others, you also discussed the documentation?

MR PIENAAR: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And you also discussed Mr McFadden, who had been there during the incident?

MR PIENAAR: That is possible.

MR HATTINGH: And his involvement with the ANC, was this ever discussed during the journey?

MR PIENAAR: Yes, it would have been discussed.

MR HATTINGH: You say that you had prior knowledge that he was indeed involved in ANC activities, is that correct?

MR PIENAAR: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, I once again call Paul Jacobus van Dyk.

PAUL JACOBUS VAN DYK: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Mr van Dyk, you are an applicant in this matter and your amnesty application appears on the Nyanda bundle, the number is 5013/97, and your written application is embodied from page 49 to page 51. The incident is described in Annexure A, page 52 to 64, the political background and motivation, Annexure C, page 55 and 62, is that correct?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, that is correct.

MS VAN DER WALT: And do you confirm the correctness of these documents?

MR VAN DYK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have also studied Annexure A, or Exhibit A, which serves as the political background before the Honourable Committee. Do you concur with that which is contained within this document?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Except with regard to Botswana and Lesotho?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr van Dyk, during this incident, where were you stationed?

MR VAN DYK: I was at Vlakplaas Security Head Office.

MS VAN DER WALT: And your commander?

MR VAN DYK: Was Colonel Jack Cronje.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you have heard the evidence given by Mr de Kock as well as by Mr Pienaar, do you agree with the events inasfar as they have any bearing on you?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Can we just hear from you, you were at Vlakplaas when this order was given to you, is that correct?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your order?

MR VAN DYK: Chairperson, briefly, the order involved that we travel to Swaziland and attack a place in Manzini. It was a residence occupied by Zweli Nyanda and Lawrence, or Cyril as he was also known.

MS VAN DER WALT: Before you continue, did you know Mr Nyanda and Mr Lawrence, were you aware of them?

MR VAN DYK: We were obliged to read the reports which came in from the various regions regularly and in so doing we accumulated a great degree of knowledge regarding persons who were moving around and their activities.

MS VAN DER WALT: How did the Security Branch, especially your branch that was under the command of Cronje, how did the Security Branch regard Mr Nyanda, did you see him as a target or what was your regard of him?

MR VAN DYK: That is correct. During this period, any prominent member of the ANC who was involved in the machinery such as the Transvaal or Natal Machinery, would be a prominent figure and they would be targets for the Security Police.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you say that you received an order there, what else was discussed at Vlakplaas, apart from the fact that you were to go to this place in Manzini?

MR VAN DYK: The discussion was briefly about the problems which Natal was experiencing with incidents of terror, and we would travel to this resident which was known. It was an opportunity to act. 

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the order, what were you supposed to do?

MR VAN DYK: The primary order was that Zweli Nyanda and Lawrence be eliminated. They were the two chief leaders of the Natal Machinery at that stage, who were operating from Swaziland.

MS VAN DER WALT: Now you say that you had to go to a certain house and if there were other persons in the house as well, what was the order then in regard to such persons?

MR VAN DYK: The order was to eliminate anybody who was found in the house.

MS VAN DER WALT: And were any arrangements made with regard to weaponry?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, weaponry was available at Vlakplaas. All the weaponry which was used came from Vlakplaas and these were not the usual police issue.

MS VAN DER WALT: You also heard in evidence that certain discussions were held at a hotel in Swaziland, were you present at these meetings?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, that is correct. After we had travelled there we stayed in the hotel.

MS VAN DER WALT: And what was your order?

MR VAN DYK: It was basically the same as what I had received at Vlakplaas, the only difference was that the house had to be identified for everybody and after that we would act as soon as the person was in the house.

MS VAN DER WALT: And who identified the house?

MR VAN DYK: Colonel Deetlefs and Colonel Cronje drove and identified the house first.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your specific order at that house, what were you supposed to do there?

MR VAN DYK: My order was that I would receive two stun-grenades and that I had to secure a certain back section of the house so that people could not escape through there. There were three of us who acted at the back, it was me, Chris Rorich and Almond Nofomela. I beg your pardon. My duty was to toss a stun-grenade through the window, then to move around to a next room.

MS VAN DER WALT: And on that particular evening, what happened?

MR VAN DYK: After it had been confirmed that there were persons in the house we drove and arrived at the house and launched the attack.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you do personally?

MR VAN DYK: Eugene ran ahead, I passed him and broke the back window and tossed the stun-grenade in. I also had a torch with me. Some of the other members also had torches.

MS VAN DER WALT: And?

MR VAN DYK: There was a feint light, I saw a person running out. From the back you look directly into the ...(intervention)

MS VAN DER WALT: Is this from where you were at the window?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, at this stage I didn't know it was the bathroom window. The person ran in a bent fashion and I shot him.

MS VAN DER WALT: And I note on page 54 of your application you mention that you were armed with an AK47 and that you fired various shots at persons in the house.

MR VAN DYK: Yes, that is an error.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you fired only at one person?

MR VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you ask for that to be amended?

MR VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you say that you saw a person running in a bent over fashion, was that in the direction of the bathroom?

MR VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you fired at this person?

MR VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: At that stage did you know who the person was?

MR VAN DYK: No, it wasn't known to me.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you see whether the person was dressed?

MR VAN DYK: No, he was naked.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you do after that?

MR VAN DYK: After that I moved along to the other window and later I moved into the house and saw that this window was the window of the room in which McFadden had been shot.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you also through a stun-grenade into that room?

MR VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: What happened next?

MR VAN DYK: We remained at the back of the house. In the meantime the front door was being opened.

MS VAN DER WALT: And immediately after the incident? Did you fire any other shots?

MR VAN DYK: No, I didn't fire any other shots. I also moved into the house after that. We began to search the rooms and at a stage I can recall that we were at the bathroom door which was locked. I was told that a person had run into the bathroom, and Eugene then suggested that we thrown a grenade through the window. At that stage both of us moved to the outside and it was at that stage that the man attempted to escape through the window. Both of us fired at him, he fell down, he got up again, we fired again and he collapsed.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you later determine who the person was?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, it was Zweli Nyanda.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you knew him?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, from photos and certain observations which had been conducted from time to time.

MS VAN DER WALT: And after these events, did you return to the hotel?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, we returned.

MS VAN DER WALT: And were any discussions held there?

MR VAN DYK: Very briefly. The main idea was to get our things and to move out back to the RSA.

MS VAN DER WALT: Were you hasty?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, because we didn't know if we could be identified. There had been a great noise with all the shots, so that it's possible that somebody may have obtained our vehicle numbers and anything else which could help them to identify us.

MS VAN DER WALT: You have also heard of certain statements which were made by the ANC in their "Further Submissions" of the 12th of May 1997, that somebody alleges that there was a person in the house who came out after your vehicles, or towards your vehicles and spoke to you on that particular night. Do you anything about that?

MR VAN DYK: I don't know anything about that, there was no such incident.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you deny this completely.

MR VAN DYK: Completely.

MS VAN DER WALT: And this Lawrence, did you know him by any other name?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, he was also known as Fear or Cyril. 

MS VAN DER WALT: That's his MK name?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, his MK name and his other alias names.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you who were involved in Vlakplaas, do you know whether he was a source for the South African Police?

MR VAN DYK: Not at all.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you are then applying for murder of the two person. Can I just find out from you, do you know that McFadden was also shot dead?

MR VAN DYK: No, at that stage I didn't know that McFadden was the other person in the house. Our initial information was that Fear had been inside the house and that he had escaped. We had no information that indicated that McFadden was in the house.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you knew that there was another person that was killed, besides Nyanda?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, that's what we heard later.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you have any discussions with Mr de Kock with regard to McFadden?

MR VAN DYK: I must say that before the operation it was known that McFadden was an ANC conspirator. We read many reports, and it was mentioned in that. It wasn't that it was unknown that he worked with the ANC.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know anything about a woman who was present in the house?

MR VAN DYK: At that stage, no, but later I was informed that she had been in the bathroom and we didn't open the bathroom, the door was locked. And when Zweli jumped out of the window, we ran around and there was nobody in the bathroom as far as I knew. I later knew that there was a woman hiding in the bathroom and that is all that I head later. I don't know from which source this information came.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you can no longer recall?

MR VAN DYK: No, not precisely.

MS VAN DER WALT: So you are applying for murder of these two persons and any other offence which is related to this.

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were also in Swaziland ...(no sound) Vlakplaas, and you mention in your application that it was an AK47 and it was clearly not a police issue weapon.

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You are then also applying for the possession of an illegal weapon and ammunition, in terms of the Arms and Ammunition Act ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: In a foreign country? The weapons were issued to you in Swaziland, weren't they?

MR VAN DYK: Chairperson, these weapons came from Vlakplaas ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't ask where they came from, they were taken in a concealed portion of the vehicle and were issued to you in Swaziland, weren't they?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Then you are also applying for any unlawful act which may emanate from this.

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record. 

&#9;You have just answered that in the reports which you received from other Security Branches you have also read about Mr McFadden.

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And that according to the information in those reports he was also involved with the revolutionary struggle of the ANC.

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Mr van Dyk, were you as a member of Vlakplaas appointed to a certain area which you had to work in?

MR VAN DYK: At that stage, Chairperson, no specific area was appointed to us.

MR HATTINGH: You as a member of Vlakplaas, did you work more in one area than other areas?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, Chairperson, it sometimes happened at times.

MR HATTINGH: Did you amongst others, work in Swaziland and the Eastern Transvaal?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, amongst others, yes.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. If you knew that Mr McFadden was in the house that evening and you found him there, what would you have done there, would you have shot him there, what would you have done?

MR VAN DYK: The instruction was that everybody had to be wiped out in the house, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You have heard Mr Pienaar's evidence with regard to the discussion that possibly took place on the way to Durban, were you in the vehicle?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, I was in the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: Was it members of the team who were involved with the operation that went down to Durban, to discuss the matter with the Durban Security Police?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Was Mr McFadden discussed?

MR VAN DYK: Amongst others, yes.

MR HATTINGH: The MK names and alias' under which these people worked, for example Lawrence, do you know whether all those names were known to security officers who did not directly work with them?

MR VAN DYK: It's not known to me, Chairperson. I don't know whether they had any knowledge of all the alias' and MK names.

MR HATTINGH: And in conclusion may I just ask you, why did you decide to go in at the back door of the house, was there a reason therefore?

MR VAN DYK: When the operation was planned I did not participate in the planning as such, it was Colonel Cronje who did the planning and they decided who would go where. Only one door was opened because if the other door was opened the people could fire upon each other.

MR HATTINGH: And that door was the back door?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And it was locked, it had to be broken open?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

MR KNIGHT: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR KNIGHT

MR PRINSLOO: Prinsloo on record, Mr Chairman, no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener. No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

MR VISSER: Visser on record, Mr Chairman, I also have no questions, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: B Mohlaba. I've got a few questions.

&#9;Mr van Dyk, you say that orders were given to you at Vlakplaas, to go to Swaziland, who gave you those orders?

MR VAN DYK: It was Colonel Cronje.

MR MOHLABA: And you were only told to go to Swaziland, without anything else being told to you?

MR VAN DYK: No, at Vlakplaas I already knew what the operation would entail.

MR MOHLABA: And how did you come to know that, how it would ...(intervention)

MR VAN DYK: Colonel Cronje informed me.

CHAIRPERSON: Evidence has been given of a discussion at Vlakplaas, hasn't it?

MR MOHLABA: Yes. Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;And how did you travel to Swaziland?

MR VAN DYK: We travelled in a vehicle. I'm not sure whose vehicle we used to Swaziland. It had a hidden compartment where the weapons were concealed in.

MR MOHLABA: And how many occupants were in this vehicle? It was yourself and who else?

MR VAN DYK: I think we were five in the vehicle. It was Colonel Cronje, Colonel de Kock, myself, Geoff Bosigu and Almond Nofomela.

MR MOHLABA: And did you meet with other people at Oshoek?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: And you said you were present at a meeting in a hotel. Can you explain to us what this meeting, the form which this meeting took, were you sitting and listening to orders or was it an open discussion where each one was invited to give an input with regard to the raid which was to be carried out?

MR VAN DYK: I would say it was an open discussion where everybody could make a proposal, but at the end the decision lay with Cronje and he decided what would be done and which persons would perform what duties.

MR MOHLABA: And that's when specific roles were defined to each participant, is that correct?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: And you said that when - if I got you correctly, you and Mr de Kock realised at one stage that there were people who went into the bathroom, did I get you correctly? - who locked themselves in.

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: And it was suggested by Mr de Kock, that a grenade be thrown out of the window into the bathroom, is that correct?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: Did you and Mr de Kock go out towards the window, both of you?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, both of us, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: And it's then that the person who turned out to be Zweli Nyanda jumped out of the window and got shot, is that correct?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: Did you see anybody running away who subsequently escaped and turned out to be Lawrence?

MR VAN DYK: No, I didn't see anybody running away.

MR MOHLABA: And throughout the operation you have been more-or-less in the same vicinity as Mr de Kock, is that not so?

MR VAN DYK: No, Mr de Kock was on the one side, I passed him and went right around the building, so we were not together all the time.

MR MOHLABA: Were you - rather let me put it this way, after the operation was launched you went back to the hotel, is that correct?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: And who was in your company? That is the motor vehicle in which you were being conveyed to the hotel, who else was there?

MR VAN DYK: I cannot recall, we were there with two or three vehicles and I cannot recall who I drove with in that vehicle. It's not known to me at the moment.

MR MOHLABA: And the number of occupants, can you remember?

MR VAN DYK: No, I cannot recall.

MR MOHLABA: And you were only a passenger there?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, I was a passenger in that vehicle.

MR MOHLABA: And during transit to the hotel, was nothing discussed with regard to that operation?

MR VAN DYK: If you say "discussion", yes we spoke but more about the attack, what had happened, what went wrong, why did a certain person get away. It was mentioned that a certain person had got away, it was Cyril.

MR MOHLABA: And can you remember who mentioned that?

MR VAN DYK: No, it was a general discussion, I specifically point out a person to say that he said so.

MR MOHLABA: But from the discussion, did it occur in your mind that somebody, one of you had apparently seen that person running away?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: Can you remember whose ...(intervention)

MR VAN DYK: Colonel de Kock mentioned it and as far as I can recall the man who was injured, Geoff, also mentioned it.

MR MOHLABA: And after the operation, did you go into the house to look for documents or certain information?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, we did.

MR MOHLABA: And did you go to each and every room?

MR VAN DYK: I won't say that I was in every room. If one sees that somebody else is busy searching in the room then I would go to the following room.

MR MOHLABA: And could you remember the condition of the beds at the time?

MR VAN DYK: No, I cannot, not at this stage.

MR MOHLABA: And the type of weather on that night, the time of the raid, could you remember whether it was raining or ...

MR VAN DYK: It did not rain, it was a beautiful evening.

MR MOHLABA: I have information that one of the beds where Cyril was supposed to sleep in was, appeared to be properly made up and there was no indication that he had slept there, can you comment on that?

MR VAN DYK: I cannot ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what Cyril was supposed to sleep in?

MR MOHLABA: That is one of the beds, Chairperson, I apologise. One of the beds ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You said one of the beds that Cyril was supposed to sleep in.

MR MOHLABA: Certainly, I have just added that. I'm sorry, I apologise. 

&#9;But that one of the beds was not slept in, you will not comment on that?

MR VAN DYK: At that stage one does not look at the beds. In this case we were looking for pamphlets, papers, anything that can supply information with regard to further operations.

MR MOHLABA: And about the woman who remained unharmed, can you remember when you were ever informed and when you gained information about that?

MR VAN DYK: The woman as I said, later I only heard that she had also been hiding in the bathroom, but the time when Zweli jumped out the window we did not go back to the bathroom and that bathroom door was never opened, according to my knowledge. So this woman I have heard was also in the bathroom. I'm not saying it is correct, but this is what I heard at a later stage. So indirectly Zweli, when he jumped out the window, he actually saved her life.

MR MOHLABA: And there is information that this woman was shot on the thigh once, do you have information about that, do you know anything?

MR VAN DYK: No, I don't have any knowledge of that.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Ramula Patel. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;Just to follow on the questioning regarding the woman, Brigadier Cronje stated that the woman was in a wardrobe. Was this ever mentioned during the discussions afterwards or ...

MR VAN DYK: It's possible, I won't argue that. The story that I heard was that she was hiding in the bathroom, but it's possible that she might have been hiding in a wardrobe. I only heard this later.

MS PATEL: Okay. This wasn't immediately after or when you went to the hotel?

MR VAN DYK: No.

MS PATEL: Okay. Alright, regarding - you stated that whilst you were at Vlakplaas you were obliged to read the reports from the various regions and that is how you gained your information.

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. And you, through this, gleaned information about Mr Nyanda and you also gained information about Mr McFadden.

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. What was - can you remember what the information about Mr McFadden was at that stage?

MR VAN DYK: At that stage it was that he was a collaborator and he was assisting in the transport of persons, as I've already said, from Mozambique and helped with infiltrations into the RSA.

MS PATEL: And regarding Lawrence, what information did you have at your disposal then?

MR VAN DYK: It was that Lawrence and Zweli moved together and planned together with regard to the Natal Machinery and launched operations for Natal.

MS PATEL: You also stated that they were observed, can you recall who would have observed them and when this was done?

MR VAN DYK: I cannot answer to that. The normal observation was done by sources whom we did not handle ourselves, so I cannot answer on that question.

MS PATEL: Okay. At that stage, during the meeting at Vlakplaas, was there any mention of McFadden?

MR VAN DYK: No, McFadden at that stage was not a target because he was a collaborator, but if he was found in the house it was unfortunate. That's when he became a target. But at that stage it was not planned that Mr McFadden was identified as a target.

MS PATEL: Did you at that stage have any information whatsoever that McFadden would have been involved or would have had dealings with Nyanda?

MR VAN DYK: According to information he had dealings with several people, members of the ANC and he contact with them, not specifically only with Mr Nyanda.

MS PATEL: Sorry Sir, do I understand you correctly, are you saying that according to your information at that stage, that amongst the many people that Mr McFadden would have had dealings with, Mr Nyanda was one of them?

MR VAN DYK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: And this was never raised at the planning meeting, either at Vlakplaas or at ...

MR VAN DYK: Not any occasion was it planned that Mr McFadden had to wiped out as well, not at that stage.

MS PATEL: Okay. Did you have any information about Gavin McFadden at that stage?

MR VAN DYK: I don't know him at all. It's possible that they might have mentioned him somewhere, but I cannot recall.

MS PATEL: Okay. Regarding Mr Lawrence, you've denied that he would have been a source of the Security Branch, on what basis Sir, do you deny that?

MR VAN DYK: I don't deny that, I don't know because I did not handle any sources there.

MS PATEL: Alright. I'm sorry, I thought that you had in your evidence-in-chief denied it, but you're now saying that you don't know. Okay.

&#9;Can I just ask, Mr Nofomela's role in this operation?

MR VAN DYK: Almond would be supportive at the back, to secure the back of the house so that people would not escape from that side of the house.

MS PATEL: Do you have any idea what specifically he might have done during the operation, that you saw?

MR VAN DYK: Is that Almond?

MS PATEL: Ja. 

MR VAN DYK: I cannot say, but he was part of our group and he would have acted if somebody had exited the house.

MS PATEL: So he was outside at all times?

MR VAN DYK: As far as I can recall, yes. As far as I know he was not in the house.

MS PATEL: Okay. And the person who had escaped, was there any discussion about where, which part of the house he would exited from?

MR VAN DYK: He jumped through the window I heard, and ran away.

MS PATEL: You don't know on which side of the house?

MR VAN DYK: It was on the - I don't want to say in which direction, but it was the side where Colonel de Kock had broken the window. But he had to move to the front unfortunately, to open the door and Geoff was there alone and that's the time when the person jumped through the window.

MS PATEL: Was there any discussion afterwards about whether or not this person was clothed or unclothed, can you recall?

MR VAN DYK: I understood that he was naked, he was not wearing any clothes.

MS PATEL: When would you have heard this?

MR VAN DYK: I heard this later during a discussion.

MS PATEL: From whom, Sir? Can you recall?

MR VAN DYK: I cannot say, it could have been Bosigu, it could have been Colonel de Kock, it could have been Colonel Jack Cronje, I'm not sure. It could have been any of them.

MS PATEL: But it would have been a discussion amongst people from Vlakplaas and not from Ermelo or from anywhere else?

MR VAN DYK: As we drove we discussed this operation, so it might have been there as well.

MS PATEL: Alright. The reason I ask you this is because Mr de Kock mentioned in his evidence to us, that the person escaped and the reason he didn't shoot was because he wasn't sure at that stage whether the person was possibly one of the members of your group or not. Now if the person was unclothed at the time I find his reasoning then strange.

MR VAN DYK: I think when Mr de Kock saw the man he was quite a way from there already, so you couldn't have seen whether the person was naked or not. I think that question has to be put to Geoff Bosigu, because he would be able to say whether this man was naked or not, he was at the window.

MS PATEL: Are you saying that it was so dark that you can see a person, but you can't tell whether the man has clothes on or not?

MR VAN DYK: I don't know, you have to ask that to Colonel de Kock.

MS PATEL: I'm asking you how dark was it.

MR VAN DYK: There was light, there was a lamp in front, but I cannot say whether the man ran in the direction of where there were lamps. I don't know which in direction he ran.

MS PATEL: Okay. You didn't witness Mr McFadden being shot?

MR VAN DYK: No, I was not in that room.

MS PATEL: Okay. The discussion afterwards about the man who had got away, can you recall whether there was an understanding then that, at that stage, that the person who, that Mr McFadden was in fact Lawrence, that Mr Cronje was under the impression that the person that he had killed was Lawrence and not McFadden?

MR VAN DYK: I can't actually answer that question, but what I can say is that at that stage we did not know which man had got away and which man had been shot in the house, it wasn't clear to us.

MS PATEL: Had you seen photographs of Mr McFadden, before the operation?

MR VAN DYK: As far as I can recall there was some photos, but I cannot place him anymore. If you show a picture to me today, I might be able to identify him.

MS PATEL: Okay. So you would have definitely been able to identify him at that stage?

MR VAN DYK: I think at that stage possibly, but as I said I was not in that room at all.

MS PATEL: Okay. Even during the search for the documents you didn't enter that room?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, I wasn't in that room.

MS PATEL: Okay. And Cecil, would you have been able to recognise him at that stage?

MR VAN DYK: Cyril, yes there were photos of him, I could have identified him.

MS PATEL: Okay. Can I just ask regarding the woman, if you had found her, would you have killed her?

MR VAN DYK: This was my instruction. We did not know who was in the house. We had two targets and the other persons who were there we didn't know who they would be.

MS PATEL: Because - well if I can just put to you that Brigadier Cronje stated in his evidence that, he says: "There was a woman there, but it was our policy so that where possible we did not wage war against woman and children. At least I should say innocent woman and children."

MR VAN DYK: I did not have such an instruction.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, I'm almost through, if you would just grant me a moment.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you perhaps know where is Jack Bosigu, is he still alive?

MR VAN DYK: I don't know, I've never seen him again after I left the Force. I don't know where he is.

MS PATEL: If I can just ask you, you amended your papers during your evidence-in-chief, did you - on page 54 of the application, if I can just confirm the amendment with you. The first paragraph, was that amended?

MR VAN DYK: Yes.

MS VAN DER WALT: It was only the persons. He said it was a typing fault, it has to read person because he only fired at one person. That is what was requested to be amended, not the whole paragraph.

MS PATEL: Okay. Okay who is the person in the house that you shot at?

MR VAN DYK: I have no idea who ran away to the bathroom, it could have been Mr Nyanda or it could have been any other person.

MS PATEL: Okay. Can I just ask - I've raised this with the previous applicant who's testified, your application also seems to be very much in a similar vein to that of some of the other applicants, can you tell whether you all consulted together or whether you consulted individually?

MR VAN DYK: Chairperson, at times I consulted the advocates and a document was drawn up and from there I agreed with the others that we were involved with this incident and after I had read my statement I agreed with it, it was not a problem for me and I think that happened to all the other persons. It's not as if we sat down in a group and discussed that this is what we have to say. What you see there is what we collectively discussed at certain times.

MS PATEL: So there was a collective discussion about ...(intervention)

MR VAN DYK: No. We discussed that this is what happened and we said this was the incident and we have to report about it and we each made a report and afterwards I went and signed my statement alone, nobody else was with me. 

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, I have problem here, the Committee is aware of the fact that the clients are all involved with myself and Adv Prinsloo. I think we live in a modern time where we make use of computers. The clients have said they consulted individually. There's a document that was drawn up with which they are satisfied. I would like to - I don't want to burden the Committee, but there was an application in Ermelo before Justice Pillay, where the ANC applied for amnesty. There was one statement drawn up and the only fact that was in the other applicants' reports, no particulars were given, it was just said: "See application of (let's say Mr X) and those people received amnesty. 

&#9;Here the persons said that they consulted individually and if Ms Patel has a look then she will see that Mr van Dyk's is quite different because he is from Vlakplaas. With regard to the incident they agree on some things because a document was drawn up by the legal representatives, which was shown to the persons afterwards. I don't know if she wants to tell the Committee something else, that these people were dishonest, but if she wants to she must say so.

CHAIRPERSON: I have grave difficulty in understand the purpose of this questioning. I think all of us who have been in practice know that when you have a number of clients you prepare a statement and you check it with client after client.

MS VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: I will then not take that any further, Honourable Chairperson, it was merely to ascertain to what extent discussions had been held and how it comes about that their versions are substantially the same. It was merely to identify that. There is no - as far as I'm concerned, Honourable Chairperson, I do not seek to draw an inference related to the legal representatives on the drafting of their clients papers, Honourable Chairperson, it's merely the question of the particular incident having taken place in a very short space of time, that everybody's recollection of it appears to be exactly the same.

ADV SANDI: Well maybe we should accept that because they were all involved in the same incident and they are being represented, some of them I see, by the same legal representatives and they had a discussion as well after the operation, one would expect the format of the applications to be very much the same. One would logically have a lot of similarities, I don't have a problem with that.

MS PATEL: Thank you. Honourable Chairperson, if you would just grant me a moment.

ADV SANDI: May I just ask one question whilst you're attempting to decide what you can ask.

&#9;Mr van Dyk, before anyone of the members of your group got into this house to carry out the attack as planned, how long were you outside the house? Was there any time that you spent outside before you actually launched the attack?

MR VAN DYK: No, Chairperson, we went to the house directly and the people were there and we launched the attack directly.

ADV SANDI: You wasted no time, as soon as you arrived there you went straight into the house to carry out the attack?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson. 

&#9;Just finally Sir, Brigadier Cronje stated that the primary objective or the primary target was Mr Nyanda, he made no mention of - not made no mention, I'm sorry, and he stated that McFadden at that stage according to him, was somebody who was just shot in the course of the operation, that he only learnt afterwards exactly who McFadden was. Can you comment on that?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, I believe that is correct, Chairperson. Nyanda and Fear, or should I say Lawrence, were the chief targets and seeing that Zweli was the head, he was the top chief target.

MS PATEL: And the question of Lawrence or Fear, was discussed from the inception, from the first meeting at Vlakplaas?

MR VAN DYK: As the reports came through yes, they worked together.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

MR SIBANYONI: Mr van Dyk, in this operation your team didn't confiscate and bring back any weapons from the house?

MR VAN DYK: Not as far as I know, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: All you got was documents?

MR VAN DYK: Documents which I heard later that Warrant Officer Pienaar gathered there.

MR SIBANYONI: Seeing that these people were attacked and killed and only one ran away, would you consider that it would appear they were not armed?

MR VAN DYK: As far as I can recall we didn't find any arms in the house, so it is possible.

MR SIBANYONI: When you returned to South Africa, did you also go through the fence?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: I forgot to ask the other applicants, was it possible to drive through the fence with a car?

MR VAN DYK: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson, there's a specific place, you press down the fence and you can drive over it.

MR SIBANYONI: Was this border between South Africa and Swaziland not regularly guarded by the soldiers?

MR VAN DYK: In some places yes, but in some places there are no soldiers.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: No questions to ask, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT 

WITNESS EXCUSED

NAME: CHRISTIAN SIEBERT RORICH

APPLICATION NO: 5011/97

MATTER: MURDER OF K McFADDEN AND Z NYANDA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

MS VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, I call the following applicant. It is Christian Siebert Rorich.

CHRISTIAN SIEBERT RORICH: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Rorich, your amnesty application is number 5011/97, and is embodied from page 35, is that correct?

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And your written application is up to page 37, and then the incident is from page 38 to 40, is that correct?

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And then the political background is from page 41 up to page 48, is that correct.

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you do confirm the contents of this statement?

MR RORICH: Yes, I do, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mr Rorich, during this incident, where were you stationed?

MR RORICH: I was stationed at the Security Branch in Ermelo.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you received a certain instruction, what was the instruction while you were still in Ermelo?

MR RORICH: The instruction to myself and to my colleague, van Zweel, was that we had to go to Oshoek where would receive further instruction.

MS VAN DER WALT: Who gave you this instruction?

MR RORICH: My immediately commander, Colonel Deetlefs.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you in the same manner as Mr van Zweel, on page 38 you mention that:

&#9;&#9;"On that day, Brigadier Cronje and de Kock arrived at our offices in Ermelo."

This is the offices of Ermelo at Oshoek border post, so Ermelo has an office at Oshoek?

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And were any instructions given to you at Oshoek?

MR RORICH: Not at all, Chairperson, except that we had to go along with Warrant Officer Pienaar to a hotel in Swaziland.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you receive any instructions at the hotel?

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was the instruction to you?

MR RORICH: Chairperson, it was told to us that we are there to execute an operation on a house which occupied by Zweli Nyanda, in Manzini and it was explained to us what every person's position would be during the operation.

MS VAN DER WALT: What did you have to go and do at the house?

MR RORICH: The instruction was that we had to - Zweli Nyanda and Lawrence, or by the other names I knew him, Raymond, Cyril and Fear ...

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you know Nyanda and Lawrence, or did you have information before this particular day?

MR RORICH: We had information by means of our sources and we knew these people from physical observations which we did in Swaziland from time to time.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your further instruction with regard to other people in the house?

MR RORICH: The instruction was quite clear from Brigadier Cronje, that when we enter the house everybody in the house had to be killed.

MS VAN DER WALT: What was your specific instruction, what did you have to do?

MR RORICH: The instruction that I received was to support the previous applicant, Mr van Dyk, and to give him some cover at the back of the house and that Mr Almond Nofomela would accompany me and supply this cover, because we had to man two windows and there was a door in-between the windows that would not be opened. The reason why this door would not be opened was the fact that if we enter from two sides, we would fire upon each other.

MS VAN DER WALT: And did you ever enter the house?

MR RORICH: Not at all, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you fire any shots that particular evening?

MR RORICH: No, Chairperson, it was not necessary because nobody came through those windows that we had under observation.

MS VAN DER WALT: Did you see that evening that persons were killed?

MR RORICH: Yes, Chairperson, only when the operation was concluded and we moved back to the vehicles I saw the naked body of Zweli Nyanda, where he lay there a few steps from the gate where we had to go out to our cars. 

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know of any person who had run away from there?

MR RORICH: I did not see, Chairperson, not from my side.

MS VAN DER WALT: And were you on the side where Mr de Kock initially took up position?

MR RORICH: No, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: You were on the opposite side?

MR RORICH: Yes, entirely on the opposite side.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know of any woman who was in the house?

MR RORICH: Not at that stage, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And you further mention on page 40, paragraph 8, that later you had heard that except for Zweli Nyanda, McFadden was also shot there.

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And that Lawrence had succeeded in escaping and you also heard later that Lawrence was under suspicion of espionage, who gave you this information?

MR RORICH: This was received from information which was channelled by sources to our offices and from our offices to our Regional Office at Middelburg and from there to Head Office. That is the road that the information took.

MS VAN DER WALT: And after you departed from the house, where did you go to?

MR RORICH: We went directly to the hotel room, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: And were any discussions held there?

MR RORICH: Very briefly Chairperson. Because we were in a hurry we wanted to clear up our stuff because we did not want to spend the rest of the evening there.

MS VAN DER WALT: You then apply for amnesty in this incident with regard to conspiracy to murder or an accessory to murder or any other offence which might emanate from these acts that were guilty of there, is that correct?

MR RORICH: That is correct, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: As well as any other unlawful act which might flow from this action?

MR RORICH: Yes, Chairperson.

MS VAN DER WALT: Mention was made that you would have shot a certain person in the foot.

MR RORICH: That is not true.

MS VAN DER WALT: Do you know of a person who was shot in the foot?

MR RORICH: One of the two Askaris were shot in the foot, but I'm not sure which one it was.

MS VAN DER WALT: But you didn't fire any shots?

MR RORICH: No, I didn't fire any shots.

MS VAN DER WALT: No further questions, thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT&#9; 

CHAIRPERSON: You were however armed, weren't you?

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were stationed there to kill anybody who came out of the house?

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: To assist in the operation?

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you did so?

MR RORICH: Yes, I did, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, we have no questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH

MR KNIGHT: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR KNIGHT

MR PRINSLOO: Prinsloo on record, Chairperson, No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener, no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR WAGENER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Visser on record, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Rorich, with reference to page 38 of the bundle, I see that you and some of the other applicants refer to Zweli Nyanda and E G Lawrence as first and second-in-command of the Natal Machinery, was the information that was known at that stage?

MR RORICH: That is correct, Chairperson, Zweli Nyanda was the chief of MK, responsible for the Natal Machinery. As I have heard, McFadden was his second-in-command.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOHLABA: What time did you leave the hotel, that is after the operation? - approximately. Was it the early hours of the morning or ...?

MR RORICH: It was late at night, I'm not sure now. I cannot give you a time now.

MR MOHLABA: And when you booked in the hotel, did you use your true names?

MR RORICH: Yes, this was not a problem.

MR MOHLABA: And did you check out normally?

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR MOHLABA: Thank you, Chairperson, I don't have any other questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOHLABA

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Ramula Patel, thank you, Sir.

&#9;Mr Rorich, do you have any idea what the relationship between the Swazi Police and members of your branch, from Ermelo I believe, was?

MR RORICH: We did not have any problems with each other, we had friends amongst the Swazi Police. Police Forces all over the world are friendly towards each other.

MS PATEL: Would they from time to time supply you with information?

MR RORICH: At some stage we exchanged information, that is so, yes. - on a level of crime. That's what it was about.

MS PATEL: What type of crime are you referring to?

MR RORICH: Serious crime.

MS PATEL: Okay. You interest however, in the Security Branch would have been crimes of a political nature, not so?

MR RORICH: Yes, that is correct.

MS PATEL: So that is what your interest would have been and that's the kind of information that you would have exchanged, not so?

MR RORICH: Not necessarily.

MS PATEL: Are you saying that you were involved in just your normal type of crime that didn't relate to the political situation at the time?

MR RORICH: No, that is not what I'm saying to you, what I am saying to you, Chairperson with respect, what I am telling you is that normal information with regard to serious types of crimes you can discuss with a friend of yours. If it has regard to a political thing and he has something to say to that he will tell it to me, if he doesn't have it or he doesn't want to, he won't give it to me. But we were based on information which we received from sources, individual persons.

MS PATEL: Did you assist Mr Pienaar in collating information about Mr Nyanda and Lawrence, specifically for this operation?

MR RORICH: As colleagues we did work together, that is so.

MS PATEL: Okay. According to your information, what you remember at that time, can you recall whether there was any discussion about Mr McFadden, during the planning of this operation?

MR RORICH: Not at all, not at all, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: According to your information at that stage, do you know whether Mr McFadden was involved with Mr Nyanda, on any level at that stage?

MR RORICH: We knew that Mr McFadden was involved as a collaborator and that at many times he was in the presence of Mr Zweli Nyanda and Mr Lawrence, but we could not have foreseen that other people would have been in the house. That was not possible to have foreseen something like that, anything was possible.

MS PATEL: Okay. The instruction at that stage was that everybody was to be killed in the house, regardless of who you found.

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Did you receive any information immediately prior to this operation taking place, that Mr Nyanda's home had in fact been raided?

MR RORICH: Not at all, Chairperson, I'm not aware of it.

MS PATEL: Was there no information of this nature that came to your knowledge after the operation?

MR RORICH: Not through our sources, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: And not through your friends that you might have had in the Swazi Police either?

MR RORICH: No, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. Did you know Gavin McFadden?

MR RORICH: No, I don't know that man.

MS PATEL: Okay. Did you have any dealings with Edgar Hillary, the Commissioner of Police from the Swazi Police?

MR RORICH: I knew the person as the Commissioner, but I did not personally deal with him, that was not on my level.

MS PATEL: Okay. On whose level would it have been, from your side?

MR RORICH: Senior officers.

MS PATEL: Who would that have been, Mr Deetlefs?

MR RORICH: Mr Deetlefs or his High Command in Pretoria.

MS PATEL: Okay. Did you make a report to Mr Deetlefs after the operation?

MR RORICH: No, I did not report to him.

MS PATEL: Okay. You've stated you didn't see anybody escape from the house during the operation.

MR RORICH: No, I didn't see that.

MS PATEL: Alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Rorich, I heard you referring to Mr Nofomela and Mr Bosigu as the two Askaris who backed your team, but my understanding is that at that stage they were constables, they were in the employ of the police, is that not correct?

MR RORICH: Yes, these were people from Vlakplaas.

MR SIBANYONI: But why do you refer to them as Askaris?

MR RORICH: That's what they were.

MR SIBANYONI: Before they were employed?

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: And then again you said the information that Lawrence was suspected of espionage came through the sources which was channelled up until your office, where were these sources based?

MR RORICH: We had several sources, Chairperson, most of whom were based in Swaziland.

MR SIBANYONI: Are these who were based in Swaziland who told you about the allegations against Mr Lawrence?

MR RORICH: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: No questions from me, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT

MR KNIGHT: Mr Chairman, if I can just place something on record in respect of Nofomela. He was never an Askari, he was in fact a constable from the start.

ADV SANDI: That's the way I have always known it, that he was a member of the Police Force, and not an Askari. Although frequently you find that the black guys are generally reflected as Askaris, if they were at Vlakplaas.

MR RORICH: That's how I knew him. I could have made a mistake, and that would my fault.

MS VAN DER WALT: May he be excused, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MS VAN DER WALT: That is then the case for my two applicants, Chairperson.

RECALL OF EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK

CHAIRPERSON: There appear to be no more applicants or witnesses at the present time. As I think you are all aware, we had made arrangements for an inspection of sorts this afternoon. I'm afraid I do not know the details that have been agreed upon, but I hope you have been told, those of you who are interested. And the proposal is that we should then take the adjournment - as I understand it, that we should take the adjournment now till Thursday morning, because there is some other event taking place tomorrow.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, before we adjourn, there was just Mr Cronje's version of the incident, that I, in all fairness, would have wanted to put to Mr de Kock. I shouldn't take more than a few minutes I would imagine.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't suppose it's necessary to remind you that you're under your previous oath, Mr de Kock.

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (s.u.o.)

&#9;I'm very well aware of it, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;Mr de Kock, are you ready?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, I am.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;Mr de Kock, I just want to put to you, Mr Cronje's version regarding the instructions that were given for this operation. He states clearly that Brigadier Schoon had told him that the target, the primary target would have been Mr Nyanda only and that investigations had to be done around where he lived and that kind of thing, and that subsequently he says that there was information about Cecil or Lawrence or Fear or whichever one you want to use, and that he had informed or that he had told Brigadier Schoon about that information that they had, but the instruction was clearly about Mr Nyanda only and whoever else was in the house and that there were no discussions about specific targets barr Mr Nyanda, except for the general instruction that whoever else was there should be killed.

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I was not present when the discussion between Mr Cronje and Mr Schoon took place. The discussion which was held, which Mr Cronje held with me, according to my recollection and my evidence yesterday, is that this was a group which was spreading terrorism and had to be destroyed. If I'm mistaken, I would just like to say that we will have to decide about that, but my recollection is the same as my evidence yesterday afternoon and I will stand by that. That is my answer.

MS PATEL: Alright. In fairness I should also put to you that he stated that he didn't know who McFadden was and that at the time that he shot and killed Mr McFadden, he in fact assumed that that was Cecil who was meant to be the other person in the house and it was only after the incident that he was told that it was McFadden, but that prior to the incident he didn't about McFadden.

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, in the security reports, McFadden's name appeared very regularly. He was prominent in that regard, as a collaborator and a conspirator. There was speculation when we returned to the hotel after the shooting, about who this person may have been, whether it was McFadden or somebody else. The idea was left there. There was no certainty at that stage about who it was that lay there dead.

MS PATEL: Okay. In fact he goes so far as to say that McFadden was just somebody who was just shot in the course of the operation.

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, he was shot in the course of the operation. However, he was a prominent person, he was instrumental in the success which Nyanda achieved here as well as Cyril. And there was no Cecil, his name was Cyril.

MS PATEL: That might be so, but it wasn't foreseen by Cronje at that stage, McFadden wasn't somebody as a target who was foreseen by Cronje at that stage. That is as far as I wish to take that.

MR DE KOCK: I will differ with him in that regard. I'm not saying that he is incorrect, I am saying this in all concession and respect.

MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

ADV SANDI: Mr de Kock, as I understand this, is it not the position that when you went there you were sure that Mr Nyanda was going to be there, but you were not so sure about Mr McFadden?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, in my mind I was entirely certain about Cyril and Nyanda, but not McFadden, there you are correct. But I was completely certain when we saw the car there, that Nyanda and Cyril were there. That was a definite given.

ADV SANDI: Ja, but in any case Mr McFadden at that stage was known to you, as well as his activities.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that is correct, but I wouldn't have said that he was in the house, I wouldn't have been able to determine that he was in the house. And he was however a target. ADV SANDI: Just on another issue now. There was no discussion as such between yourself and Mr Schoon, the discussion took place between Schoon and Mr Cronje, not so?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We don't want to delay things very much longer, but we've heard evidence that no arms, no weapons were found in the house.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, no weapons were found.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that Brigadier Cronje in his evidence said that weapons were found in the house? I'm reading from page 263, line 25:

&#9;&#9;"I do not know if he was armed. As I said there were weapons found in the house."

You don't know anything about that, it must be wrong?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DE KOCK: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: What time on Thursday morning, same as usual? And I have my usual request that if you are still asking for amnesty for your clients, will you please let us have in writing precisely what offences you are asking amnesty in connection with. Nine thirty.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

