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ON RESUMPTION: 21ST JANUARY 1999 - DAY 4
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 ON RESUMPTION: 21ST JANUARY 1999 - DAY 4

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuko, may I remind you that you are still under oath.

MR MAZIBUKO: (s.u.o.)

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair and Members of the Committee, may I take the opportunity of apologising. It is correct that I only arrived at 09H10 ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: May you please speak louder.

MS CAMBANIS: ...(inaudible) arrived at 09H10. 

MR LAX: The translator is asking you to speak up, Ms Cambanis.

INTERPRETER: No, I said she must wait.

MR LAX: Oh, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ma’am.

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chairman, Members of the Committee, I wish to apologise, it's correct that I only arrived at 09H10 this morning and to the extent that my lateness contributed to the delay, I apologise. It was of a personal nature, the cause.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, your colleagues, Mr Berger and Malindi advised us about your difficulties and I appreciate that, thank you, Ma’am.

&#9;Yes, ...(indistinct)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: Mr Buthelezi, you said that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuko.

MS TANZER: I apologise. 

&#9;Mr Mazibuko, you said that you were not present at the meeting on the 10th of June 1992, were you present at the meeting that took place on the 14th of June 1992, about three days before the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I was not present.

MS TANZER: You also gave evidence that your comrades in Sebokeng shot at you and that is why you came to the hostel. You also feared walking in the township because if they caught you they would burn you. Could you briefly explain what you did to cause wrath to your comrades?

MR MAZIBUKO: Before I was shot there were people who were alleging that I am an IFP member. After I was shot I knew that those comrades shot me because they had a suspicion that I'm an IFP member.

MS TANZER: You also stated that you came to the hostel between January to April 1992, can you be a little bit more accurate? I mean there are four months between these dates.

MR MAZIBUKO: As I've already stated that it is between January and April, I'm suggesting that I don't know which month exactly I went to the hostel.

MS TANZER: You said as well that you learnt of the pending attack on the 17th of June when you arrived at the stadium, was this because you heard the siren?

MR MAZIBUKO: When the siren rang I did not go, I went to the stadium when they returned women to their rooms, then I went to the stadium.

MS TANZER: So in fact when the siren has gone you never actually attended any of the meetings?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: So on the night of the 17th when you were aware that you were going to attack Boipatong, that is when you decided to go to the stadium?

MR MAZIBUKO: I went to the stadium when the women returned to their rooms, then I went to the stadium, then we were informed that we should go and fetch our arms from our rooms.

MS TANZER: Well who told you to fetch your arms from the rooms?

MR MAZIBUKO: The person who was instructing us was Mr Mkhize.

MS TANZER: You said when you arrived at the stadium, Mr Mkhize was talking, can you briefly explain what he was saying to you?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I arrived at the stadium and sat down it is when I heard that he was informing us that we should go and fetch our arms, then I did that.

MS TANZER: Did he give anymore details about how you were going to attack Boipatong, or did he just say fetch your arms, we're going to attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: He just said we're going to Boipatong to attack because we were being killed. He just said we should go and fetch our arms and put our headbands.

MS TANZER: Can we safely say that you've never actually attended a meeting then at which any of the leaders allegedly spoke and incited the people?

CHAIRPERSON: Cited the people to do what?

MS TANZER: I apologise, let me rephrase.

&#9;And allegedly spoke out at the stadiums related to the complaints of the residents of the hostel.

MR MAZIBUKO: I never went to the stadium where people were encouraged or there was a discussion about how people were killed. I was always thinking of my parents because my family's house would be burnt or one member of my family would be killed. Those are the things which were in my mind.

MS TANZER: You were not given a firearm at the stadium, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: May you please repeat your question.

MS TANZER: You were not given a firearm at the stadium, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: The weapons you used, were those your own weapons, the iron bar and the knopkierrie?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, they were mine.

MS TANZER: Did you intend to kill or assault anyone that night with your weapons?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: You stated also that the members or the residents of the hostel were divided into two groups and there were about 2-300 men present, how was such a large amount of people controlled by only two people?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would be able to say why. When we arrived at a certain spot we were divided into two groups. Immediately we starting shooting. Nobody was in control or was giving instructions, everybody was attacking.

MS TANZER: As you left the hostel, did you pass under a bridge and come out into a big open field located a few minutes away from the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: Is that where the tree was where you were sitting under and divided into the two groups?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: Before you left the stadium did you drink any ndelezi or spray it on your weapons?

MR MAZIBUKO: I drank ndelezi but I never sprayed my weapons with it.

MS TANZER: How did you feel after drinking the ndelezi?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was normal as usual, there was no change in my behaviour or in my thinking.

MS TANZER: Did it not make you feel brave or strong?

MR MAZIBUKO: No.

MS TANZER: When you joined the IFP, did they trust you, coming from Sebokeng? Did they not perhaps think you were an ANC spy?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I arrived at the hostel there were those who have joined IFP from the township. The person whom they knew is Oupa Semene(?) whom he was known as an IFP members, so there was no allegation or suspicion that I was an ANC spy, they knew already that I was a supporter of the IFP.

MS TANZER: They embraced you without any suspicion whatsoever?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is how I observed because I could see that there is no suspicion and there were no questions in that regard.

MS TANZER: You gave evidence that your group entered Boipatong in the last street, when you were sitting under the tree was it discussed in what direction each group would enter Boipatong or ...

MR MAZIBUKO: When I was in that spot or in that group I never heard any people giving us a direction, we were just divided into groups then we entered the township. We were not instructed which direction to take.

MS TANZER: So did you see the other group entering in any other direction?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would explain in this way. When we were under the tree, when we were divided in two groups, we were sitting down then we stood up and divided ourselves into groups. When we entered Boipatong we used one street. We divided ourselves further down in the street when we started shooting.

MS TANZER: So it's correct that in fact different groups took different streets?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't know as to whether other people used other routes or other directions.

MS TANZER: Yes, Mr Mazibuko, you gave evidence that when you saw people around your age sitting on the other side of the barricade, well not you exactly but you fired at them, Mkhize fired at them and they ran and you gave chase. How many people of Mkhize's group chased these suspected SDU members?

MR MAZIBUKO: Immediately we started shooting to the direction of the SDU, they were a group. After we shot at them that is where we dispersed. Others followed those who went into yards, others followed those who were running in the streets. So it is in that point where we took different directions, so nobody can say the group from Mkhize ran to a particular direction and those of the other group ran in a different direction.

MS TANZER: So in fact, when you gave chase and followed these suspected SDU members, did you not lose sight of the rest of the residents of the hostel who were attacking Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I was always inside of our members of the Madala hostel, those who were attacking because we were all within that vicinity.

MS TANZER: You gave evidence that when you proceeded back to the hostel after leaving Boipatong, you saw police vehicles coming from Boipatong and moving towards Vanderbijl Park, is it possible that you saw any of these vehicles in the Boipatong location at any time whilst you were attacking it?

MR MAZIBUKO: If they were within Boipatong during that time we were attacking I could have seen them.

MS TANZER: Your evidence was in chief that the vehicles were coming from Boipatong to Vanderbijl, those were your words.

MR MAZIBUKO: When I remember well I said when I started seeing these cars I saw them on the tarred road between the factories and Boipatong. They were moving from this direction to Vanderbijl.

MS TANZER: Is it possible they could have been coming out of Boipatong, moving towards Vanderbijl?

MR MAZIBUKO: There were cars which were patrolling within Boipatong and those who were patrolling in the factories. It might be possible that they were coming from the factories or within inside Boipatong.

MS TANZER: So it is possible?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not commit myself in that regard.

MS TANZER: How many people would you say were there when you proceeded back to the hostel in your group, after giving chase of the SDU members, alleged SDU members?

MR MAZIBUKO: Those who followed the SDUs, we divided ourselves into two groups. There were those who were running in the streets, there were those who went inside the yards. I would not be able to estimate those who took a particular direction and the opposite direction. I'm not able to estimate.

MS TANZER: But was it not your evidence that you gave chase, you were chasing the SDU members, the suspected SDU members. Were you not following them as they were running?

MR MAZIBUKO: Those I was running after, they went into the yards but we did not see where they ended up, we did not see where they ended. We entered into those yards and then we couldn't see them.

MS TANZER: So approximately how many of your group was left when you proceeded back to Boipatong, sorry the hostel?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question, Ma’am?

MS TANZER: Approximately how many were there in his group when he proceeded back to the hostel.

MR MAZIBUKO: I'll put it this way. When we entered Boipatong we dispersed in various directions, when we returned there were those who came back from various streets and other streets. I'm not able to estimate how many were left behind when we were in front, returning to the hostel.

MS TANZER: So would you say there were like hundreds that were returning at the same time or 100 returning, or were there 10 returning?

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's put it this way; on your way back to the hostel, how many people were working with you then at that stage, do you know?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would put it this way Sir. When we returned to the hostel, those who were in front of me were not so many. There were those who were still behind, there were those who were in front. It is difficult to estimate how many there were in front of me and those who were behind me.

MS TANZER: So what made you decide to proceed back to the hostel? What led to that decision not to continue attacking and to return?

MR MAZIBUKO: When we were inside Boipatong whilst we were still attacking, people shouted that we should get out and return. I would not say what is the particular reason which made us to return. I heard voices shouting that we should return, then we got out of Boipatong.

MS TANZER: When you arrived back at the hostel, would you say you were one of the first in the group or were you one of the last of the group that returned?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was in the middle. There were those who were in front of me, there were those who arrived first and we arrived later and the other group arrived after us.

MS TANZER: Mr Chairman, my question; how many people actually were with him when he was crossing the street is relevant because at least to my next question which I want to ask which is basically, when they were crossing the street they said they saw the suitcases and they weren't noticed. So if they were about a few hundred men or a hundred men running, they should be noticed. And my question was: how many people were you crossing that street?

CHAIRPERSON: I think if you listen to his, to the import of his evidence, it amounts to this; there were people who were ahead of him, there were people who were behind him. He is not in a position to estimate how many people were there, either in front of him or behind him. I think it is common sense that there must have been a fairly large group of people who were returning.

MS TANZER: Did you make your way to Slovo Park on your way back to the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: When we returned to Madala Hostel, yes I arrived, I entered Slovo Park. The first street or the second street we went out of it outside Slovo Park or the other township.

MS TANZER: Did you attack anyone in Slovo Park?

MR MAZIBUKO: Where I attacked in Slovo Park there were shack houses and there were houses ...(indistinct). That is, I never entered in the informal settlement area but I attacked the houses next to the informal settlement.

MS TANZER: Why did you not mention in your evidence-in-chief when you were led the evidence-in-chief, that Mabote started shooting at the suitcases when he saw the suitcases?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was never asked.

MS TANZER: Did they return the fire?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, they never shot.

MS TANZER: Do you know of any reason why he would shoot if you were not noticed and he knew you were not noticed?

MR MAZIBUKO: Are you asking if I should know the reason why he shot?

MS TANZER: Yes.

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't know the reason why he shot at them.

MS TANZER: When you were living at the kwaMadala hostel, were you employed?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I was unemployed.

MS TANZER: How did you manage to maintain yourself at the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: The room in which I was staying, I was staying in two rooms. I was staying with Nana Tshabango. He was taking care of me, he was supporting me or maintaining me.

MS TANZER: You gave evidence that you know Vic Keswa was not a member of his hit squad and had nothing to do with it. Did you have any relationship with him?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, he was my friend.

MS TANZER: Whilst you were at the hostel, were you aware of the existence of a police officer known to you as Peens?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know him.

MS TANZER: Were you aware of the existence of a police officer known as Shaka?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know him.

MS TANZER: Did you know of a police officer or a member of the police force known as Rooikop?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know him.

MS TANZER: Were you aware of the complaints of the residents prior to the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was one of those who was complaining that I was not able to go to the township to my friends and my family because we'd be kidnapped. You would be afraid even to go to the robots. You can only get out of the hostel if there is a car which goes out.

MS TANZER: So why did you not attend the meetings to voice your complaints?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'd repeat this answer for a second time. I was not interested in attending meetings because I was already concentrating on the welfare of my family because at any time I would get a message that my family has been attacked.

MS TANZER: So who would you voice your complaints to about the insecurity of yourself and your family?

MR MAZIBUKO: There were people who came from where I came from, then they would be able to give me the state of affairs of my family or the state of security of my family, then they would tell me that they are still safe.

MS TANZER: You gave evidence that you know Andries Matanzima Nosenga and that he only joined the hostel after the attack, am I correct that Nosenga on your version, did not take part in the attack and that he is lying?

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me, Ma’am, as I recall his evidence it was to the effect that he only saw Mr Nosenga at the hostel after the attack.

MS TANZER: As I understood it Mr Chairman, as I understood all the applicants, they were saying that Nosenga they understood joined the hostel after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: They became aware of his existence after the attack.

MS TANZER: So may I just put it to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just hold it, let's just make sure that all our notes say that. My note says; I know Matanzima Nosenga from kwaMadala Hostel. I did not know his role. I saw him after the attack. I started to know Matanzima a week after the attack.

MS TANZER: Mr Chairman, I'll rephrase the question anyway but, I'll rephrase the question. 

&#9;Did you know of Mr Nosenga's existence at the hostel prior to the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know that he was an occupant of the hostel before the attack.

MS TANZER: It is possible that he was a resident at the hostel then prior to the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way. Anybody who came from the township, particularly Sebokeng and Everton, if he was staying within the hostel I would have known him.

MS TANZER: So do you doubt whether he was at the hostel prior to the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Before the attack Matanzima was never a hostel dweller, before the attack. I could have known if he was in the hostel and coming from Sebokeng or Everton.

MS TANZER: So you deny that he was a resident at the hostel at the time of the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Exactly.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that in fact Mr Nosenga joined the hostel before you did, in 1991.

MR MAZIBUKO: I dispute that.

MS TANZER: Do you dispute that Mr Nosenga in fact took part in the attack on Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MS TANZER: What motive could one possibly impugn on Mr Nosenga in saying that he took part in the attack if he did not?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'd put his motivation in this way. There are people who are, when they are before whites and they are interrogated, they say things which are not in existence. Maybe he was scared when whites were interrogating him, then he stated things that he did not know, that he was present during the attack whilst he was not.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is able to give details about meetings and the attack far better than you can, how do you explain that?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is his version and he knows that he's saying things which he did not know, that there were police in the midst of the hostel dwellers. I hope that the Committee would call those police, then they would say that there were no police, they would say that there were no police within our midst. The version that he gives is not the true version and I don't align myself with what he is saying.

MS TANZER: Well I put it to you that Mr Nosenga did take part in the attack, that he's going to give evidence that he attended the meetings on the 10th of June and the 14th of June and that the police did collude with the IFP and hostel leaders to attack the residents of Boipatong and in fact they rendered assistance in this regard by supplying weapons, caspirs and manpower. What is your comment?

MR MAZIBUKO: He would come here and testify? He would come here and testify? I think he will be tested if he did or he did not. If he did that, it will be proven that he did that. If he did not, he'd be proven that he did not.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence, and I put it to you that the members of the police met you in the field where you were sitting and they accompanied you to Boipatong. In fact some of the residents of the hostel climbed into the Caspirs while others walked with the Caspirs. What is your comment?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would put it this way. To respect you, I would not, I'm not going to dispute what you're going to say because I respect you. He would come here. I'm not going to contest what you are saying to me, but I'm saying he was not present in the hostel, he did not take part in the attack. That is the end of my comment to what you are saying to me.

MS TANZER: You are directing your comments to the comments of Mr Nosenga and not myself.

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm saying that because you are saying to me, you are telling me that Nosenga is going to testify that there were police and they were doing those things, but because I respect you I am not going to contest with you because he is your client, I'm not going to comment.

MS TANZER: I'm indebted to you. Did you notice any men wearing balaclavas on their faces during the attack on Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: No-one put on the balaclavas. I did not see anyone.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga states under oath that under orders he killed people. You state under oath that you killed no-one and only damaged property and did not see anyone kill that night. If all you applicants are so innocent, why are there so many bodies?

CHAIRPERSON: We have not heard all the applicants.

MS TANZER: I apologise, Mr Chairman.

&#9;The evidence so far is that ...

CHAIRPERSON: I think you should direct your questions to him.

MS TANZER: The evidence we've heard so far is that either somebody was not present at the attack or that they shot in the air and are not sure if they killed anyone. You say that you didn't kill anyone or assault anyone and yet there are so many bodies found dead the next morning. Do you still hold that Mr Nosenga is lying?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me put it this way. What Nosenga is saying he will come and state it here in front of the Committee and everybody, then he would state before this Committee that he killed so many people and as to whether they females or males or children.

MS TANZER: When he gives such evidence, will you believe him?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would just sit down, keep quiet and listen to him because I don't have power to stand up and ask him questions. I would just sit down, be quiet and listen to what he is saying.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is also going to give evidence that upon returning to the hostel after the attack, celebrations took place, more ndelezi was drank as you were praised and chanted. Did you join in these celebrations?

MR MAZIBUKO: If I remember well, the following after the attack there were police who came and the alarm was rung. At the stadium, yes we drank ndelezi, anyone who wanted to, we were not forced. If you had a belief that ndelezi has something to do for you, and because many people who were present at the stadium came from Natal, and they used to drink it, so they did drink it at the stadium.

MS TANZER: Was ndelezi not drank that night after the attack, not the next night, the very night of the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: I started drinking ndelezi for the first time at the stadium on the 17th before we went to Boipatong. That was for the first time I drank ndelezi. When I returned I did not go to the stadium so I did not know as to whether it was put in front of people and other people drank that, I don't know that.

MS TANZER: So you cannot dispute that it did happen, there was celebrations straight after?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I would say that.

MS TANZER: Where did you hide your weapons, the knopkierrie and the iron bar?

MR MAZIBUKO: In my room. When I entered in my room I was sleeping on the bed in the corner. On top on the roof there were planks and I threw them on top of those planks.

MS TANZER: Yes, Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence that the weapons were hidden in the ceiling. 

MR MAZIBUKO: All those rooms in Madala hostel don't have ceilings. If you are inside and you look above you see the roof. There is no ceiling. You cannot even touch the roof. Even if you can climb on top of the bed you cannot touch the roof because it's too high.

MS TANZER: Well where did you hide your weapons?

MR MAZIBUKO: I threw them on top of the scaffold. You'd find these wooden wall beds and mattresses and then on top you'd find the scaffolds on top, then I just threw my weapons on the scaffold.

MS TANZER: Were all the weapons hidden there, the AK47s, the pump guns that you mentioned?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuko, do you know whether the other weapons were hidden?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS TANZER: Did you attend that annual rally in Ulundi in July, about a month after the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: I have never been to Ulundi.

MS TANZER: Are you aware, or were you aware of any relationship that existed between Victor Keswa and members of the police force?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence, and in fact he was a member of Mr Keswa's hit squad, that in fact Mr Keswa had dealings with police in the vicinity and that these policemen did supply weapons to Mr Keswa, what your comments, being a friend of his ...(indistinct)?

MR MAZIBUKO: There is nothing like that. I do not believe in that. I don't remember meeting police or I don't remember seeing him with the police.

&#9;We were surprised that he was detained at all times. The police would come and detain him at night. As to what he was arrested for we did not know but he was detained regularly.

MS TANZER: But being a friend of Mr Keswa, did you not know of any perhaps personal dealings, that perhaps when he was taken at night there was not detainment but maybe a relationship or other sorts?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me put it this way. Since I became his friend I don't remember Victor Keswa having a friendship with a policeman.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Mazibuko, is it correct that you shared a room with Mr Nana Tshabango?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you were friendly with Mr Nana Tshabango?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you were friendly with Mr Victor Keswa?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And Mr Victor Keswa was friendly with Mr Nana Tshabango?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not say he was a friend or had a relationship with Nana Tshabango because I have never seen them together since I arrived at that hostel. Victor Keswa was staying in his room and Nana Tshabango was staying in his room. I never saw them in the company to one another.

MR BERGER: You were present when a photograph was handed in by your counsel at these hearings, where there was some graffiti on the wall against or calling for the heads, and I use that not literally, of Victor Keswa and Nana Tshabango, do you remember that photograph?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do remember.

MR BERGER: So I'll ask you again, isn't it correct that Nana Tshabango and Victor Keswa were associates?

MR MAZIBUKO: I never saw them. Let me explain it this way. Nana Tshabango came from Tshirela(?). Victor Keswa came from Sebokeng. Nan Tshabango according to Tshirela's people, was a bad person who was a murderer, who shooting people, who was assaulting people. And Getisi, it was alleged that he was a killer and assaulting people. So people came to that kind of conclusion, the people within the community said they wanted Getisi and Nana. 

&#9;There were those when I was with Nana Tshabango in a car going to town. We would give them a lift then we'd ask them; do you know Nana Tshabango? Those people from the township would say; I don't know, we don't know him. Then they would say; did you hear about him, they said yes. Then they would say we are looking for him.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that Mr Nana Tshabango was a policeman?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: When you were at the stadium on the night of the 17th of June 1992, what were your instructions just before you left the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: Do you mean the instructions which we were given?

MR BERGER: Yes.

MR MAZIBUKO: When we were at the stadium they informed us we should go to Boipatong and kill members of the Self Defence Unit in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Who said that?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is Mkhize.

MR BERGER: Did he say anything else?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't remember if he said anything else.

MR BERGER: Did anyone say anything else?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is Damarra Chonco.

MR BERGER: And what did he say?

MR MAZIBUKO: ...(indistinct) here are the guns, whoever wants to take a gun let him take it. Then people went to fetch those guns.

MR BERGER: Where were the guns?

MR MAZIBUKO: They were on the ground inside the stadium.

MR BERGER: And did you grab a gun?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MR MAZIBUKO: At that time I did not have a long ...(indistinct) in the hostel. I was not brave enough to go and fetch a gun.

MR BERGER: What sort of guns were there on the ground?

MR MAZIBUKO: AK47s.

MR BERGER: Any other guns?

MR MAZIBUKO: I saw AK47s.

MR BERGER: How many?

MR MAZIBUKO: There were a number. I cannot be able to count how many because they were not put in line, they were just dropped. So I would not be able to count how many there were.

MR BERGER: Approximately?

MR MAZIBUKO: I think there would be plus-minus 10.

MR BERGER: And only AK47s?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR BERGER: And the reason that you didn't go and grab one, you could have but you didn't because you hadn't been in the hostel a long time and you weren't feeling brave enough, is that your answer?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way. According to my mind, when they said here are guns, whoever must go and fetch, even if I would go nearer to the guns, the way people ran to fetch those guns I couldn't have found one on the ground because we were many and many people were rushing to fetch one.

MR BERGER: Well then I don't understand your answer that you hadn't been in the hostel long enough and you weren't feeling brave enough to take a gun, if your answer now is that you didn't have time to get a gun because everyone rushed for it.

ADV STRYDOM: Mr Chairperson, his answer was: "Even if I wanted to I wouldn't have been able to because of the rush." He qualified his answer.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuko, what counsel wants to find out from you is why didn't you fetch the AK47, you were told there they are and by your own estimate there were about 10 at least. Why didn't you fetch one?

MR MAZIBUKO: Inside the hostel I was not free enough to talk to any other person who was a hostel dweller whom I'm not used to, so the reason why I did not go to grab a gun, I did not have the freedom or the free will. I was a little bit conscious. I was conscious. I looked to the people around first but then I said maybe they should be the first who should go and fetch a gun before I do.

MR BERGER: So who took the guns, the AK47s?

MR MAZIBUKO: The one I remember is Sipho Lukozi.

MR BERGER: Yes, continue.

MR MAZIBUKO: That is Mkhize, that is Damarra Chonco and other men whom I did not know. I don't know their names but I can identify them if I see them.

MR BERGER: Have you seen them? Were any of them accused with you in the criminal trial?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, they were present but they were acquitted.

MR BERGER: And throughout the trial you never got to know their names.

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not be able to state their names but I know their identity. We were 17 when we were accused, so we were many. So I can identify them but I don't know their names.

CHAIRPERSON: How many of you were accused? This big trial in other words.

MR MAZIBUKO: I think we were 76 or 79.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the 17 that you're talking about, what about those persons?

MR MAZIBUKO: The 17 are the ones which were convicted or found guilty.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you, Mr Berger.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;So besides the three people whom you've mentioned, none of your co-applicants for amnesty took an AK47, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: You mean - I remember Mkhize. I did not see others as to whether - if there was one among them who grabbed a gun, I would say that but I did not see them. I did not see one of the taking a gun.

MR BERGER: No, no, you said - you mentioned the three and the others, approximately 7 guns were taken by people who were acquitted, isn't that what you said?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't remember him saying that. All he said was that the other persons who took the guns are person who he did not know but whom he can identify. Unless you're making the assumption that there it must follow that if there were 10 guns, and we don't know whether there were 10 guns, they must have been taken by those who were acquitted.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'm sure I heard the witness say that people who took the other guns were acquitted.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. 

&#9;Mr Mazibuko, you said that the other guns were taken by the person who were acquitted.

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I said - Mr Berger asked me as to whether among those who took the guns were they accused in this case and I said yes, but they were acquitted.

MR BERGER: So it follows from what you've said, I ask you, that none of your co-applicants other than Mr Mkhize and Mr Lukozi, if one counts him as a co-applicant, none of the others took AK47's, am I right?

MR BERGER: Yes, that is correct because I've added by saying, if one of them or some of the grabbed guns I would state their names, I would identify them that they did but they did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Well isn't the appropriate answer that you did not see anyone of the other applicants, except for those that you've mentioned, take the AK47s?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that your answer went even further than that and that is that if any of your co-applicants other than Mr Lukozi or Mr Mkhize had taken an AK47, you would have seen that and you would have disclosed his name now?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I said among the applicants, if one of them did grab a gun I would identify them and say he grabbed a gun. Among the people who grabbed guns I saw Lukozi and Mkhize. I was able to identify Lukozi, Mkhize and Damarra. I was not able to see others because there was confusion.

MR BERGER: So when Mr Chonco said here are the guns, take them, he actually went and took a gun himself?

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Berger, just to get clarity here. 

&#9;We have two Mkhize's, applicants here, which one of the Mkhizes are you referring to?

MR MAZIBUKO: I refer to Xambelele Mkhize, the one testified the day before yesterday. It's Beki Nkosi Mkhize.

ADV SIGODI: And Sipho Lukozi, is he the same as Thomas Lukozi?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Advocate Sigodi.

&#9;My question, Mr Mazibuko, is Mr Damarra Chonco said there are the guns, take them and then he and Mr Mkhize both went and took guns for themselves, is that what happened?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct. Damarra Chonco said here are the guns guys and he also grabbed one.

MR BERGER: And what happened after that?

MR MAZIBUKO: And all the people were rushing to grab guns. From there we were given ndelezi. So you will start by drinking ndelezi and then you'll move on and somebody will spread ndelezi on you and then from there we departed to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: So when did you go and fetch your weapons from your room?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I left my room I was not armed. Let me explain it this way. The alarm was rung and everybody went to the stadium. When the women were instructed to go back they were told that only men are wanted at the stadium. 

&#9;So when I arrived at the stadium we were given an instruction by Mr Mkhize that we should go and fetch our weapons and that is when I went back to my room to fetch my weapons.

MR BERGER: And when you came back that was when Mr Mkhize said, this is now after fetching your weapon, you came back and then Mr Damarra Chonco said here are the guns, take some guns?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: So when Mr Chonco said here are guns, you already had a spear and a kierrie, a spear in one hand and a kierrie in the other?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have an iron bar or a spear?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was an iron bar.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon. For the purpose of my question it doesn't make a difference but for accuracy I apologise.

&#9;You had an iron bar in one hand and a kierrie in the other, at the time when Mr Chonco said take a weapon, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct, I had my knopkierrie and an iron bar in my hands.

MR BERGER: So the reason you didn't take a weapon was because you already had a weapon, in fact you had two weapons in your hands, isn't that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not correct. I said that the reason why I did not take the weapon is because I was not brave enough to grab one. Even if I wanted to take a weapon, because of that confusion and many people went to rush to grab guns, I wouldn't have been able to grab one myself.

MR BERGER: Where did those weapons come from, the weapons that were available for distribution?

MR MAZIBUKO: Those weapons were arranged by Damarra Chonco.

MR BERGER: Where did he get them?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know where he got the guns.

MR BERGER: How do you know that he brought them to the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way. When I entered the stadium, I said that Mr Mkhize was already giving his speech, then Damarra Chonco opened the boot of his car and he took out the weapons and he put them there on the ground.

MR BERGER: So his car was in the stadium.

MR MAZIBUKO: No, it was not in the stadium, it was beside the stadium under the tree. It was unable to enter the stadium, it was under the tree.

MR BERGER: But you were already in the stadium, you went into the stadium.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, by the time he went to fetch the weapons in his car I was already in the stadium.

MR BERGER: And so you were in the stadium and he left the stadium, he went outside and he carried about 10 AK47s from his car into the stadium, is that what happened?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: How do you know he got them from his car?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'll explain it this way. Where I was standing in the stadium I was standing above the stands, I was able to see outside the stadium. I was able to see his car outside the stadium.

MR BERGER: Was that a blue Nissan Skyline?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You're certain that you didn't go to the stadium when the alarm rang, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: In your statement at page 117, about a third of the way down you say the following:

&#9;&#9;"The alarm went off. We went to the stadium."

Is that a mistake?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I would say that is a mistake.

MR BERGER: At the criminal trial evidence was given by Theresa Mofokeng, do you know her?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know her well.

MR BERGER: How do you know her?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, she stayed with us in the same room because she was Nana's girlfriend.

MR BERGER: And she gave evidence that after the siren rang you went to the stadium. You came back after that to fetch your weapon and a "lappie" to put around your head. Is she not telling the truth?

MR MAZIBUKO: When she says I went to the stadium, after this I ...(indistinct), she's not telling the truth. I only went to the stadium when the women returned from the stadium, because she told us that we were instructed to go back, only the men should go to the stadium. Then I realised that this is a serious matter and I decided to go to the stadium.

MR BERGER: But she never gave evidence to that effect, did she?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct, she never gave that evidence.

MR BERGER: Can you think of any reason why Theresa Mofokeng should give false evidence against you?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know whether there is a reason why she said that because even in Court the State witnesses were contradicting each other. Some of them said I had a knopkierrie and some of them said I had an axe, so I can't say why she decided to give that evidence.

MR BERGER: There's something I don't understand, Mr Mazibuko. You and a number of your co-applicants have given evidence that your instructions when you left kwaMadala were that you were going to Boipatong to kill the members of the SDUs. And you've all been, not all of you because Mr Victor Mthembu gave a different story, but a number of you have been very careful to make the point that you were only going to attack the SDUs, correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, we were going to attack the members of the SDU.

MR BERGER: Because not everyone in Boipatong was a target, in fact the vast majority of the residents of Boipatong were not targets, would you agree?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'll put it this way. For myself people who were the targets were the SDU members. If I had managed to come across one of the members of the SDU I would make sure that I would kill him.

MR BERGER: It was not only in your mind, those were your instructions, instructions given to you and all the attackers, by Mr Mkhize, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, that we were going to attack the SDUs.

MR BERGER: And when you got to Boipatong and you had that altercation with what you believed was a Self Defence Unit, do you remember you saw some people, you fired at them and they ran away?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, I remember.

MR BERGER: And according to your statement they never fired back, correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: I cannot say that they did not fire back because there were a few shots that I heard, so I cannot exactly say that they shot back or not.

MR BERGER: No, no, have a look at page 117 at the bottom, you said:

&#9;&#9;"When we got to Boipatong we came across a group of Self Defence Units."

Third last line on that page you say:

&#9;&#9;"They were shot at."

In other words your group shot at them.

&#9;&#9;"They ran away. The people ..."

... meaning the attackers.

&#9;&#9;"... followed them and began to break windows."

Now if they had shot back at you you would have said so, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Now what happened in that split second that changed, according to you, this attack on Self Defence Units into an attack on the entire township of Boipatong? That is what I don't understand.

MR MAZIBUKO: Those people who ran into the yards are the people who caused that other people should also be attacked, because I said we ran after them, so we could not find them because they ran into houses. So those people who entered the houses maybe decided that we should search for them into the houses. That is where now they saw children and women and they decided to attack them.

MR BERGER: But not one of you could have believed that young children, old people, pregnant women, not one of you could have believed that they were members of Self Defence Units. So what was it that turned this, on your version, disciplined group of attackers into madmen, killing and destroying everything in your wake, what was it?

MR MAZIBUKO: I will put it this way. A person who had a spear or a gun and who shot at a woman, I cannot say why he did that because all of us we knew that we are going to attack the SDU members, because a woman will never kidnap me in town and burn me. So anybody who attacked a woman with a spear, I don't know what he was thinking. It was his own decision.

MR BERGER: So according to you the only legitimate targets were the young men of the township?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And yet of the deceased and the injured, the young men form a minority. The vast majority of people killed and injured were women, children and old people. You can't explain that can you?

MR MAZIBUKO: Unfortunately I cannot explain because when I hear that the majority of the people who were attacked were women, old people and children I was hurt because I could not understand why this happened. I was really touched by that. When I was still living in the township I was never ever harassed by women and children.

MR BERGER: Well I'm glad, Mr Mazibuko, that you don't use the excuse of the ndelezi to justify the massacres. That is so, am I right, you don't use the ndelezi as an excuse for justifying the killing of women and children and old people?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And I'm going to suggest to you that there is no explanation for that apparent change of plan from attacking SDUs to attacking the entire township, and that the real reason that the entire township was targeted and attacked is because those were the orders that you were given before you left kwaMadala, that you were going to attack Boipatong to destroy the entire township, isn't that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not correct.

MR BERGER: If the SDUs were your targets, why were you destroying property, why were you breaking windows?

MR MAZIBUKO: I will explain it this way. When we started breaking the windows it is because we could not see the members of the SDU. They ran into the houses, so we wanted to enter into these houses so that we can search for them.

&#9;If I had seen maybe one boy jumping out of the window I wouldn't have left him, I would make sure that he is dead.

MR BERGER: I'm sure you did make sure that a number of people were dead, didn't you?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: How many people did you make sure were dead?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm sorry, I did not understand the question. Well I did not understand the question, I'm sorry about that.

MR BERGER: Well what did you think the question was, Mr Mazibuko?

MR MAZIBUKO: I thought that the question says whether I'm sure that many people died. That is why I said the answer "yes" because I know exactly that many people died that day.

MR BERGER: Your response to me was: 

&#9;"If I had a seen a boy jumping out of a window I would have made sure that he was dead." 

I said to you: 

&#9;"I am sure you did make sure that people were dead." 

And you said: 

&#9;"Yes."

You say you misunderstood that question?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I repeat that. I ask you to forgive me, I did not understand the question.

MR BERGER: Isn't Mr Victor Mthembu correct when he says, and I asked him:

&#9;"Why were young babies killed?"

And he said:

&#9;"Because a snake gives birth to another snake."

Wasn't he right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well he was not correct, that is my feeling. Because he put it in Zulu, maybe it has a different meaning but according to me when you are a pastor you cannot give birth to a pastor, you can give birth to a criminal. When he says that maybe that is how he understood it or maybe that is what he knows, that a snake gives birth to a snake.

MR BERGER: Mr Mazibuko, you understand the import of that phrase. Mr Victor Mthembu was saying the children were killed because they were children of parents living in Boipatong with whom he had a fight.

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know why he said so, he is the only person who knows why he said: 

&#9;"A snake gives birth to a snake."

If I had come across a woman or a child I would not have attacked her because I knew well who was my target.

MR BERGER: And isn't Mr Mthembu correct when he says that women were killed and old people were killed simply because they were sleeping in Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I cannot say why he said so.

MR BERGER: You also went into Slovo Park you say, right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you know that many many people were injured and killed in Slovo Park and there was great destruction in Slovo Park. Are you not responsible for any of that?

MR MAZIBUKO: To tell the truth, I did not enter Slovo Park, I was only moving along the street that separates the township and Slovo Park. I was busy breaking the windows of the houses next to Slovo Park, I did not enter Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't have any reason why I did not enter Slovo Park, it just happened.

MR BERGER: You were with Mr Beki Mkhize and he said that his group went into Slovo Park.

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way. Even if we were a group, there were people who were attacking on the other side and there were those who were attacking on the other side, maybe he entered Slovo Park with other people but I did not enter, I was busy on the other side of the street.

MR BERGER: Did you see anybody shooting or stabbing anyone?

MR MAZIBUKO: If I remember well I saw a certain man stabbing somebody with a spear.

MR BERGER: Who, who was stabbing?

MR MAZIBUKO: It's Mr Msizi.

MR BERGER: Where is he today?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know where he is because I was arrested last year in January. The last time I saw him he was staying at KwaMadala Hostel.

MR BERGER: What was his first name?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't know his other name, I only know his surname, that is Msizi.

MR BERGER: Do you know what room he was staying in?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know his room.

MR BERGER: And who was he stabbing?

MR MAZIBUKO: He stabbed a man who was trying to jump the fence.

MR BERGER: Where?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't remember the name of the street but it was in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: And did you see anyone shooting?

MR MAZIBUKO: The only person that I remember, seeing him shooting, it was Mr Mkhize but I heard many shots but I could not see who was shooting but I could hear the gunshots.

MR BERGER: You were asked a question at page 112:

&#9;"Did you see any person firing with firearms during this attack?"

And your answer at page 115 was:

&#9;"I saw a person in our group with the name "Doctor", who fired a shot in the direction of a person."

Two questions: 1) you didn't mention "Doctor" now. 2) you don't mention Mkhize in your answer", why is that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was asked this question yesterday and I said that I saw Doctor shooting. I even said that he had a pump action gun.

MR BERGER: Well why didn't you say that now when I asked you? I think your counsel is showing you something.

MR MAZIBUKO: He's showing me that I said that. He was indicating to me.

MR BERGER: Where is that, what page are you looking at?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is page 113 and the answer on page 115, and now he's showing me something on page 118.

MR BERGER: Oh I see, he's showing you at the top of page 118.

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: 

&#9;&#9;"Doctor was firing with a shotgun, a pump action shotgun."

MR MAZIBUKO: I say it is not a shotgun, it's a big gun.

MR BERGER: Oh a short gun?

MR MAZIBUKO: It's a big gun.

MR BERGER: Oh, sorry.

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I was referring to a pump gun.

MR BERGER: And Mkhize was firing an AK47?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you didn't see anybody get killed as a result?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I did not recognise anybody dying. When Doctor was shooting, he was pointing at somebody. It seemed as if that person was drunk but I could not see whether he fell, so I was unable to see if he was dead or not but he was drunk.

MR BERGER: You spent about an hour and a half in the township, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I do not want to commit myself as to how long we stayed in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: It was a long time, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And during that time you moved around the township, up and down on a number of streets, am I correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: We were busy working in the township, we were doing many things.

MR BERGER: Yes. And at no stage in that long time, moving all around the township did you see a single person injured or deceased?

MR MAZIBUKO: I saw many people being beaten but I cannot say whether they died or not. Many people were attacked, others were trying to jump the fences, others were trying to fight back, others were falling, but I cannot say whether they died.

MR BERGER: None of them were lying on the ground?

MR MAZIBUKO: The one who was attacked by Msizi with a spear, he fell but I could not say whether he was dead or not. The only thing that I saw, I saw him stabbing the person and I moved on.

MR BERGER: Why didn't you go and make sure that this man was dead?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I cannot tell you, I can't really say why I didn't go and make sure that he was dead, because I was also busy with my job of breaking the windows.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I've gone past eleven.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, shall we adjourn until 11H30. We'll take an adjournment until 11H30.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mazibuko, may I remind you that you are still under oath.

MR MAZIBUKO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Berger?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: (Continued) Thank you, Chairperson.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry to interrupt, Chairperson. One of the applicants, Mr Vincent Kanjele, he already testified and he wants to be excused for two hours to go for a work interview which he can only do now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he may be excused, yes.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Mazibuko, you persist with the denial that all the residents of Boipatong were targets of the attack, and as a result there is something that I still don't understand. You confirmed pages 110 and 111 where you set out the political objective that was sought to be achieved by the attack on Boipatong. And in paragraph 10(a), I want to read to you the first sentence and I'' translate from the Afrikaans, it says:

&#9;&#9;"The political objective which we wanted to achieve with the attack on Boipatong was to teach the predominantly ANC dominated and controlled Boipatong a lesson and more particularly to neutralise the Self Defence Units of the ANC."

Now put simply what that means is that your political objective was to neutralise the Self Defence Units, kill the Self Defence Units and teach the people of Boipatong a lesson. Now what lesson did you intend to teach the people of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: Self Defence Units were killing us, they were burning us, we were being burnt alive, we were being stabbed. So in killing them they would know that if they kill one person they would also be killed. If they had stopped killing us we wouldn't have attacked them, that wouldn't have happened in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Let's just get the facts ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before we get those facts, do you confirm that you said that you were going to teach the residents of Boipatong a lesson?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I agree but by saying that I do not include the children and the women. I was not referring to the parents.

CHAIRPERSON: Well how were you going to do that, were you going to do that by attacking the SDUs?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, we were going to attack the SDU members.

CHAIRPERSON: I suppose the - you are said to be saying in your statement you were going to teach the people of Boipatong a lesson and then you single out the SDUs. Now what I want to find out is we know that you are going to kill the SDUs because you've told us they were the ones who were responsible for attacking the hostel residents. Now how were the residents of Boipatong going to be taught a lesson?

MR MAZIBUKO: The residents of Boipatong would also know, more especially the parents, they would know that members of the SDU are the people who are killing the hostel dwellers because they will come with a kidnapped person and burn him alive. So they would know that when the SDU members have kidnapped an IFP member then the IFP will also revenge by killing somebody that they come across.

CHAIRPERSON: And the somebody that they will be coming across, would that include women and children?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that would included children and women, only the SDUs.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, continue.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;The only people that you intended to kill were SDU members and you've told the Committee that by that you understand young men in the township, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, I was referring to young men who were residents in the township.

MR BERGER: But what you say and what all of your co-applicants besides Mr Victor Mthembu say in this document which has been annexed to each and every one of your applications, is that specifically you wanted to neutralise the Self Defence Units, the young men but you also wanted to teach the residents of Boipatong a lesson. So your teaching of a lesson went beyond the killing of SDU members. 

&#9;My question to you is, how were you going to teach the residents a lesson, what were you going to do to teach the residents a lesson? Do you understand my question?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: Please answer it.

MR MAZIBUKO: The residents of Boipatong would learn that when they see the members of the SDU kidnapping and burning one of the IFP members, they should reprimand, they should reprimand them. Although I know that they would not listen to their parents, but to a certain extent parents would be able to reprimand the members of the SDU.

MR BERGER: So that what would happen? The parents would reprimand the SDU members because the parents feared that something would happen, what is it that the parents would fear which would make them reprimand the SDU members?

MR MAZIBUKO: They would fear that maybe people would be killed, innocent people would be killed.

MR BERGER: Precisely. That is exactly the lesson you wanted to teach the residents of Boipatong, that if they did not keep the SDU members in check, if they did not reprimand them then innocent people would be killed. We agree, am I right, Mr Mazibuko?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was not specifically saying innocent people would be killed but they would know, that if one IFP member is killed they would know that the same thing that happen to Boipatong will happen again and people will lose their properties as it has happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me put it to you this way, the suggestion is this that the manner in which the people of Boipatong were to be taught a lesson was to attack them and kill them so that in future they know that if they don't control the SDUs, they will again be attacked. Do you understand that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And what do you say to that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I agree with what you have already said but I also emphasise the fact that we are not specifically going to kill women or the parents. I don't want to say that the parents would be killed simply because SDU members were killing the members of the IFP.

MR SIBANYONI: Can I rephrase the question? What actions were going to be taken against the resident to teach them a lesson?

MR MAZIBUKO: We'd hurt them by kidnapping members of their families, specifically the youth.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: The innocent persons that you are talking about, would those be male persons who are not necessarily members of the SDUs? 

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that will be men who are not necessarily members of the SDU, although some of them are members of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: So are we to understand that this lesson would lie in that men who are not necessarily members of the SDUs, would be attacked and killed and from that killing and attack, the residents of Boipatong in general would learn a lesson, that in future they've got to keep the SDUs in check?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And would this have included elderly men?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that would not include old men. I'm referring to men who are still able to work for themselves, not old men.

CHAIRPERSON: Well because - it was at night, was it not?

MR MAZIBUKO: May you repeat the question please?

CHAIRPERSON: It was at night when this attack was launched?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, it was at night.

CHAIRPERSON: How was it going to be possible to identify who of the men can still work for themselves so as in order to identify those who had to be attacked?

MR MAZIBUKO: I think an old man - it's easy to recognise an old man, it is easy to make a difference between a man who can work for himself and an old man. I can recognise the difference between a man and an old man.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Mr Mazibuko, how had you, and when I say you I mean you in the plural, being intimidated by the residents of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: To tell the truth, residents of Boipatong, I was never told that the people of Boipatong were intimidating us, I never heard of that. My problem is with the ANC. I never had a problem with the people of Boipatong. 

&#9;What resulted in Boipatong being attacked, it is because most of the members of the ANC were residing in Boipatong and so we thought that if we attack the members of the ANC who was staying in Boipatong as the nearest place, that would reach other members of the ANC in other townships.

MR BERGER: So you recognised, you all recognised that in attacking Boipatong and killing people in Boipatong you would kill people who were not ANC members but in the main you get ANC members, is that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: When we were given instructions at the stadium, we were told that we are going to attack SDUs. So according to me I don't think there is any person who can guard in the township who is not a member of the ANC. So they were guarding the township against the IFP members.

MR BERGER: You see if you look at the bottom of page 110, just before paragraph 10(b), there is a paragraph which reads as follows:

&#9;&#9;"A warning was also given to ANC supporters not to support the Self Defence Units. The idea was to intimidate the residents of Boipatong just as they had intimated us."

Now you're not talking about the Self Defence Units here, you're talking about the residents of Boipatong who had intimidated you, you being the residents of KwaMadala. How had you the residents of KwaMadala been intimidated by the residents of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: As hostel resident who enters the township in Boipatong and being seen by one of the residents in Boipatong, his life would be in danger. If only one person would see that you come from KwaMadala hostel, then your life would be in danger. It will be through a miracle, through God's help that you would manage to escape and go back to the hostel.

MR BERGER: So the intimidation from the residents of Boipatong included threats of death and death itself?

MR MAZIBUKO: During those days it was not possible that if they catch you as a member of the IFP you'll come back alive. In most cases they would kill you. It will be through a miracle that you go to a hospital.

MR BERGER: So just as you had been intimidated in that way by the residents of Boipatong, so you were going to intimidate them in exactly the same way, by killing them, by attacking them, by destroying them. It's exactly what you've said now, isn't that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Mr Mazibuko, what is your standard of education?

MR MAZIBUKO: Standard eight.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that - let me just put you in the picture, you corrected your application at page 109, paragraph 11(b), you specifically deleted the reference to the meeting of the 10th of June 1992, correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And that's because you went through this document, through all the documents that are part of your application, you saw this phrase and you said no, that's not correct, it must be corrected.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, before he answers that question, Mr Berger, there is something that concerns about these applications. If you notice the applications, most of them, they have this annexure which is virtually the same for all applicants.

MR BERGER: It's identical, yes.

ADV SIGODI: Identical.

MR BERGER: Except for Mr Victor Mthembu.

ADV SIGODI: Except for Mr Victor Mthembu because he had a different legal representative and for Mr Nkwandalendi Buthelezi who was saying that he was not even there. Now it's a bit of a concern to me because the purpose of this is an inquiry, is it really fair to cross-examine on something which we can all say that it was merely put in as an annexure, which is virtually the same because the working is not specific to each applicant?

MR BERGER: Advocate Sigodi, this particular applicant was led by my learned friend and specifically in relation to pages 110 to 111. He was asked whether he confirms the contents of those pages and he replied yes, he does confirm the contents of those pages. Once he does that I submit that those pages become his own. He has said: "I confirm those contents, I associate myself with those contents." 

&#9;And then if one is to attribute any political motive to him, surely I submit, either one has regard to this document to say well, that is what he says his political motive is, or else one says he hasn't said what his political motive is. Then the answers to questions 10 and, or 9 and 10 of the prescribed form, those questions have not been answered, if one has no regard to pages 110 and 111.

&#9;Is it correct, Mr Mazibuko, that the contents of pages 110 to 111 were explained to you before you gave evidence yesterday?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way. Page 110 and page 111, somebody wrote the contents in these pages and I was asked whether I agree with what is written there.

MR BERGER: And what was your answer?

MR MAZIBUKO: I said I agree with the contents thereof.

MR BERGER: Now at page 108, question 11(b), you corrected that by taking out a reference to the 10th of June 1992, is it coincidence that you did this after Mr Xambelani Buthelezi was cross-examined this very paragraph and cross-examined on the very point of the meeting of the 10th of June 1992? What I'm suggesting to you, and you can comment, is that you were present, you heard that cross-examination and you decided you didn't want to answer any questions about any meetings prior to the 17th of June so you'd better amend that answer, isn't that what happened?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not so.

MR BERGER: When you signed your amnesty application on the 20th of January 1998, were you happy with the contents of that application? I'm talking about ages 107, 108 and 109.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I was happy with it.

MR BERGER: And when did you become unhappy with the answer to question 11(b)?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I started attending these hearings. Victor Mthembu had this book. I used to take his book and it had all our statements in it, so I was able to read it through and that is when I realised that mistake and then I realised that on that day I was not present and this is wrong.

MR BERGER: So you never attended any meeting prior to the 17th, you had no idea what was being done to address the concerns of the residents of KwaMadala in relation to the actions of the residents of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: I will explain it this way. When I arrived at KwaMadala hostel the meetings that I used to attend were youth brigade meetings. I was not attending meetings that were held at the stadium, I was only attending youth brigade meetings.

MR BERGER: My question is, you had no idea of what plans were being made or what was being done to address the grievances of the KwaMadala residents in relation to the actions of the Boipatong residents?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Why did you pick up the TV?

MR MAZIBUKO: In my room at KwaMadala hostel I did not have a TV or a radio, so even when you are relaxing we didn't even have books because when we arrived at KwaMadala hostel, I only had the clothes that I was wearing that day.

MR BERGER: So you took the TV so that you could watch television on it in your room at the KwaMadala hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Is it also correct that you stole a duvet from Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not true.

MR BERGER: So the evidence of Theresa Mofokeng at the criminal trial that you returned from the attack with a bloody duvet which you had washed the following morning, is an outright lie?

MR MAZIBUKO: It is true she saw this bloody duvet in the room but she did not recognise the person who brought that duvet. It is not me who brought this duvet, it was somebody who was staying with us in the same room, it was not me.

MR BERGER: Who brought the duvet?

MR MAZIBUKO: It was Oupa Smith.

MR BERGER: Where is he?

MR MAZIBUKO: He was kidnapped in Vereeniging and he was burnt.

MR BERGER: He's dead?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry I forgot to put to you - you remember I said to you let's get to the facts, and what I was going to say to you was the fact of IFP members or supporters being killed in Boipatong is that there was a killing in January of 1992, I'm only dealing now with 1992, that was Bonangi Mbatha and the next time someone was killed, a supporter of the IFP, was on the 13th of June 1992.

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I want to object to that question. I don't know if my learned friend will lead that evidence but what's been handed to us is a list of events, the violence in the Vaal Triangle from a certain period to another period and if I look through that document there, there are many more such incidents where IFP supporters were killed.

MR BERGER: I've also analysed that document and that is why I've put this fact. And if my learned friend has a look at the document, I'm talking about killed in Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Continue with your question.

MR BERGER: I've made the point that there was other violence in Sebokeng, in ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Put the question. 

&#9;Did you hear the question, Mr Mazibuko?

MR BERGER: I'll repeat, Chairperson. 

&#9;The question is, can you speak about any member of the IFP or supporter of the IFP who was killed in Boipatong or by residents of Boipatong between the death Bongani Mbatha and the 13th of June 1992?

MR MAZIBUKO: The killing that I remember that was on the 13th of June but I don't know the name of that person who was killed, but it was a man in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: I'm asking you, before that date and from January of 1992 after Bongani Mbatha was killed, I'm talking about the months of February, March, April, May and half of June, can you name a single IFP member of supporter who was killed by residents of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I can do so. 

MR BERGER: Who?

MR MAZIBUKO: I said before I remember that old man, I don't know his name.

MR BERGER: Please listen to my question. I'll give you the exact dates. Bongani Mbatha was killed on the 12th of January 1992 in Boipatong. Then there was all sorts of violence in Sharpeville, Sebokeng, Everton and then on the 13th of June, Mr David Mbele was killed and on the 14th of June, Mr B L Khumalo was killed. So from the middle of January to the middle of June is five months. And I'm asking you, in that five month period, do you know of a single IFP member of supporter who was killed by residents of Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: In my answer I would say during that time I only that old man but I don't remember the date but I only know that old man was killed in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: When you were moving around Boipatong and moving along the perimeter between Boipatong and Slovo Park - and you'll agree with me that there is no clear division between Boipatong and Slovo Park, there's just a road. On the one side is Boipatong and on the other is Slovo Park.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I agree with you because that is what I said before.

MR BERGER: And as you were moving through the streets of Boipatong for that long period which others have estimated at an hour and a half, you never saw a single police vehicle?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not see any police vehicle in Boipatong.

MR BERGER: You did not see any policemen or any white men or any people wearing balaclavas?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: And the people who were shooting with AK47s and with other weapons that ejected shells, they were shooting freely, there was nothing to catch the shells, no-one was picking up the shells, you didn't see any of that?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not see any person picking up the shells.

MR BERGER: Is it correct to say that if the police had been in Boipatong that night with the attackers, with you, and when I say "you" I mean "you" plural, you would have seen them?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct. If there were police in Boipatong at that time we would have seen them. Even if there were police in assisting us in attacking the people, I would have seen that and I would have written it in my statement.

MR BERGER: And so the fact that you never saw any police means undoubtedly that there were no police and no police vehicles in Boipatong at the time of the attack, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: There were no police in Boipatong. Even if there were police who were just patrolling in Boipatong, I would have seen them and I would say that I saw the police. So because I didn't see them, I'm saying there were no police in Boipatong then.

MR BERGER: Yes, what I'm saying and I'm sure you will agree with me, is that there was nothing that prevented you from seeing the police if they had been there.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, I agree with you.

MR BERGER: And the same for the army, the SADF.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, even if there were soldiers, I would have seen them.

MR BERGER: And if members of your group had been given lifts in military vehicles, suitcases, you would have seen that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, if they were given lifts by the soldiers, those who were in my group, I would have seen them and I also would have taken that lift as well.

CHAIRPERSON: How many people were there in your group? If you can estimate, was it a large group or a fairly small group?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, it was a big group. 

MR BERGER: And is it correct that at no stage during the attack, subsequent to the attack or until today, has anyone of your co-applicants or anyone of your friends or anybody that you knew at KwaMadala come to you and said the police were there, the police did assist us? No-one has ever said that to you, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, you are right.

MR BERGER: Do you know who Dondo is?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: That's Jack Mbele?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And Makuka?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR BERGER: Who is he?

MR MAZIBUKO: I know him by the name of Oupa Julius Selai.

MR BERGER: And where is he now?

MR MAZIBUKO: He is dead.

MR BERGER: Was he part of the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I did not see him, whether he was present or not.

MR BERGER: But you knew him from KwaMadala before the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And Lucky is Lucky Stikenyao.

MR MAZIBUKO: I know him.

MR BERGER: That's Sonny Michael Mkwanasi?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Themba Mabote we know was part of the attack, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Did you see him in Boipatong during the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: If I remember well I saw him when we were leaving and when we were at the open veld outside Boipatong, when we were coming back to the hostel.

MR BERGER: At the time of the attack, is it correct that you were friendly with Ndondo and Lucky?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Who is Gatchene?

MR MAZIBUKO: It's another man. I cannot explain but I knew him, he's just another man.

MR BERGER: You know him from KwaMadala before the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Was he an Induna or did he hold any position?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know, I don't whether he had a position or he was an Induna.

MR BERGER: Where is he today?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I don't know where he is.

MR BERGER: Is it also a lie that you were in possession of a Z88 gun during the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is untrue.

MR BERGER: The first time that you saw a police or military vehicle near Boipatong was as you were leaving and you were already in the veld outside Boipatong, is that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: One of the military vehicles that you saw was moving along that road which separates Boipatong from the factories, Cape Gate and other factories, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And it was moving in your direction, towards you?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You don't know where that military vehicle came from?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct, I don't know where it came from.

MR BERGER: And the other two military vehicles you saw in the road, the main road that separates the veld from KwaMadala, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Can you repeat the question again, Sir.

MR BERGER: The other two military vehicles that you saw were in the road which separates, the main road which separates the veld next to Boipatong and the veld next to KwaMadala.

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And all three military vehicles moved towards the corner where that garage is, where the robots are.

MR BERGER: They turned at the garage and facing the way to, moving down the way to Vanderbijl Park.

MR BERGER: That was the one that came from Cape Gate side, turned the corner, turned left at the corner?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And the other two reversed towards the corner from along the main road?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And all three military vehicles remained there whilst you and the other attackers congregated in the veld before crossing the road?

MR MAZIBUKO: When they stopped, even by the time Themba was shooting at them, we were moving but there were other people who were sitting down.

MR BERGER: Isn't it so that after you had finished the attack in Boipatong you all moved to that veld outside Boipatong and waited for all the attackers to join you before you crossed the road?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I was leaving Boipatong there were already other people in front of me, so when I arrived at them I did not sit and I did not stand, so I was always moving. That was the time when Themba was shooting towards the soldiers. So there were other people who were standing there but I was moving.

MR BERGER: And the people who were standing in the veld, there were a large number of people, in fact most of the attackers were there in the veld, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, most of them were already there.

MR BERGER: And then you crossed the road about 30 metres away, the distance of this hall, away from the military vehicles, is that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: It is not a long distance to cross over the road.

MR BERGER: The distance between you, your group and the military vehicles as you crossed over the road was about the length of this hall which is about 30 metres, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I will agree with you on that.

MR BERGER: And at that time the military vehicles were stationary, they weren't moving, they weren't going anywhere, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Can you please repeat your question again?

MR BERGER: At the time when you and the other attackers were crossing the road to go back to KwaMadala, the three military vehicles that you've spoken about were not going anywhere, they were stationary, correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not correct. The time we were crossing over the road the two army vehicles were reversing and the other one had already turned. That was the time when me and others were crossing over the road. So when I crossed over they were not there.

MR BERGER: Yes, alright. You see the reason - well let me ask you this, were they moving slowly, the vehicles?

MR MAZIBUKO: They started moving slowly when they turned towards Vanderbijl Park.

MR BERGER: You've said when they turned left then they started moving slowly.

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And the two military vehicles that were reversing were reversing slowly towards the vehicle that had just turned left?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way. These two vehicles, the person who was in front, who was driving the army vehicle in front is the one who turned around after realising that the other two vehicles were already reversing. So they were not moving faster, they were all slow.

MR BERGER: And Mr Beki Mkhize was with you at the time, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't want to lie to say that he was with me. The only person that I remember who was with me that time was Themba Mabote. I don't know where Mr Mkhize had disappeared to then.

MR BERGER: How did you know that it was time to go back to KwaMadala?

MR MAZIBUKO: I've already said that when we were in the township I heard screams that we should go back. So it was easy to see that people were no leaving the township.

MR BERGER: When you crossed the road, you and the other attackers to go back to Boipatong, how fast were you moving?

MR MAZIBUKO: The time when we crossed the road on your way to KwaMadala, we were moving faster. We were moving faster than when we went to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Were you running?

MR MAZIBUKO: Some were running but they were not running fast.

MR BERGER: And you moved across the road and back to KwaMadala, back onto the road under the bridge and used 

the same route to enter KwaMadala as you had used to come out when you had started the attack, correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And the soldiers in the army vehicles made no attempt to stop any of you from going back to KwaMadala, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct, they never stopped us on our way back to KwaMadala. All of us were not stopped until we reached KwaMadala hostel.

MR BERGER: If you'll just bear with me for a moment.

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe while you are still preparing for another question.

&#9; Mr Mazibuko, why were these vehicles reversing?

MR MAZIBUKO: I think it is because they heard that shot, maybe they thought that we would shoot at them because we were many. That is what I think because they started reversing when Themba Mabote started shooting at them.

MR SIBANYONI: Would you say they saw you in a group coming to cross the road?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct, they saw us.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Mazibuko, you say that as you were crossing the road, the soldiers in the military vehicles saw you?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct, they saw us.

MR BERGER: Are you also known as Lucky Stikenyao?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, it's not me but there was a time I was called Lucky Stikenyao but it was only Hollie who called me Stikenyao.

MR BERGER: So there were two Lucky Stikenyao's?

MR MAZIBUKO: Let me explain it this way. The people at KwaMadala didn't know that I'm Stikenyao, there's only person who called me Stikenyao and that is Hollie Bajosi.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any further questions?

MR BERGER: I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please ask the questions.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that you are not being honest with the Committee, that in fact the police were present during the attack, police vehicles assisted the attackers in transporting some of them into the township and carrying the loot from the township back to KwaMadala.

MR MAZIBUKO: What you are saying to me Mr Berger, I do not agree with you that there were police there. I'm not trying to run away from the truth but I am telling you that I do not agree with that statement.

MR BERGER: And I also put it to you that Prince Vanana Zulu was part of the attack, what do you say to that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I only saw Prince Vanana Zulu after the attack.

MR BERGER: Where did you see him?

MR MAZIBUKO: I saw him when we were at the stadium, and that was for the first time that I saw him.

MR BERGER: That was after the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct. Let me explain it this way. The first time that I saw Prince Vanana Zulu, when there was a conflict between us and the police, when they were saying to us should board their vehicles so that they can go and question us, that was the time that I saw Prince Vanana Zulu.

MR BERGER: Was that the day after the attack, the next day?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that is not the next day. It can be after a week or some days.

MR BERGER: So the police only wanted to take you for questioning about a week after the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: Even before the end of that week, police were already coming at the hostel. They wanted to take us but we refused and there were others who came after a few days.

MR BERGER: I want to read to you what Mr Themba Khosa said during your criminal trial. And I'm reading from page 3238 of the criminal record. He was asked:

&#9;&#9;"Who did you speak with in the hostel when you came to the hostel, when you arrived at the hostel on the 19th of June?"

And his answer was:

&#9;&#9;"I spoke to two people, one of them was Mr Mthembu. I'm not certain if the other person Mtwana was, if the other person was Mtwana ..."

And we know that is Prince Vanana Zulu.

&#9;&#9;"... but I recall that I spoke to Mr Mthembu."

And then on page 3239, second paragraph he was asked the question:

&#9;&#9;"Good. Can you remember if Mr Mtwana was at the meeting?"

And Mr Khosa's answer was:

&#9;&#9;"Yes, he ought to have been there, yes, he must have been there. I can't remember if all the leaders were present because my intention was not to speak to the leaders separately."

Now we know that Prince Vanana Zulu was the key leader in the hostel, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: To say that he was a key leader at the hostel, I don't want to commit myself in that regard because I don't know.

MR BERGER: And if Prince Vanana Zulu had not been present immediately after the attack - here they're talking about the 19th of June, Mr Themba Khosa would have seen that and he would have noted that. Besides this evidence I put it to you that Prince Vanana Zulu was seen in Boipatong at the time of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see Mr Zulu in Boipatong during the attack?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not.

MR BERGER: Is it possible that Prince Vanana Zulu was in Boipatong at the time of the attack and you never saw him?

MR MAZIBUKO: Like Mr Berger says that Prince Vanana Zulu is one of the key leaders of KwaMadala, if he was there he would have given a speech at the stadium on the 17th of June, should he have been there.

MR BERGER: So your answer is, if he was there you would have seen him?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: The day after the attack, the 18th of June, were you at the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct, I was at the hostel.

MR BERGER: The whole day?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it correct that Mr Themba Khosa visited the hostel on the 18th of June 1992?

MR MAZIBUKO: Mr Themba Khosa arrived after the attack but I don't remember exactly whether it's the day after the attack, but I remember that he was present at the stadium. He was accompanied by Mr Humphrey Ndlovu.

MR BERGER: Well I can tell you that yesterday afternoon Mr Themba Khosa telephoned, or spoke to SAFM and in that interview he stated that he was at KwaMadala hostel on the 18th of June 1992, within hours of having heard the news on the radio. So you can accept that it was the day immediately after the attack.

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not agree or disagree with that. Like I've already explain that I was present at that day when Mr Themba Khosa addressed the meeting but I don't remember whether it was on the 18th or not.

MR BERGER: And at that meeting Mr Themba Khosa told you to destroy the evidence linking you to the massacre, including all the goods stolen from Boipatong, is that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: I didn't hear that at the stadium. What I heard, he said to us that we should co-operate with the police.

MR BERGER: Did he ask you if you were involved in the massacre? Not "you" personally, "you" plural.

MR MAZIBUKO: What I remember him saying at the stadium was that he heard that there was a massacre in Boipatong and there are allegations that we are suspects. So the police was to search the hostel so that they can see if they can get something that will link us to the massacre in Boipatong. That is what I remember him saying.

MR BERGER: Who burnt the goods, the loot from Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: I didn't see the person who burnt the goods.

MR BERGER: But you did see the goods being burnt?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I did see the goods burning.

MR BERGER: Where were the goods burnt?

MR MAZIBUKO: They were burnt inside the big dustbin which was in front of the room where I was staying with Tshabango.

MR BERGER: And was that before or after Themba Khosa arrived?

MR MAZIBUKO: The time when I left the room to the stadium some of the goods were already burning then and that was the time I found Themba Khosa in the stadium.

MR BERGER: So Themba Khosa was in the stadium at the time when the goods were being burnt?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And the police were in the stadium with Themba Khosa at the time when the goods were being burnt?

MR MAZIBUKO: When Themba Khosa was still in the stadium the good were still burning but the police had not yet entered the gate. There was only one Nyala and there was only policemen on top of that Nyala holding the video. They only came into the stadium after Themba Khosa had addressed us.

MR BERGER: So when Themba Khosa addressed you in the stadium there were no policemen present?

MR MAZIBUKO: The time Themba Khosa addressed us in the stadium he was accompanied by two white senior policemen, the time he was addressing us.

MR BERGER: And at that time the stolen property from Boipatong was being burnt.

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that Mr Mkhize, Beki Nkosi Mkhize, Mr Matanda and Mr Richard Dlamini went from room to room taking goods which had been stolen from Boipatong, to where they were burnt?

MR MAZIBUKO: I did not see these three people taking stolen goods to where they were burnt. They only announced that all those goods that were stolen from Boipatong should be taken to the dustbin. And there were other people who were taking those goods to the dustbin.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you say at page 118, you say:

&#9;&#9;"Mkhize ..."

This is the second last paragraph.

&#9;&#9;"... Mkhize, Matanda and Richard Dlamini walked from room to room and took the goods to a big rubbish holder where they were burnt."

Is that not correct, Mr Mazibuko?

MR MAZIBUKO: What is written here, Mr Berger, I'll agree that I said ...(indistinct) that Mr Mkhize, Mr Matanda and ... they were taking goods which were stolen from Boipatong. But what I'm saying in this statement is that these people were taking goods from room to room, it was not possible. I will ask you to forgive me if I said that, what I wanted to say is that they were announcing room to room that people should take out the goods so that they should be burnt.

MR BERGER: So what is stated in this paragraph is not correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, this paragraph that refers to these three people is correct but only where I say they were taking goods from room to room, that portion is incorrect. What I wanted to say is that they were moving from one room to another announcing because it was not possible for them to do that.

MR BERGER: Who is - why did you not correct this?

MR MAZIBUKO: I have marked with a pen there if I remember well, I intended to rectify that mistake.

MR BERGER: Who is Matanda?

MR MAZIBUKO: It's one of the hostel dwellers. I only know him by the name of Matanda but we used to call him Father as well.

MR BERGER: Where is he now?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't want to commit myself, I don't know where he is now.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I see it's past 1 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you still have many questions to ask?

MR BERGER: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Well finish up then. How long do you think we'll take?

MR BERGER: I should be approximately 10 minutes and I'll be done.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, well let's continue then.

MR BERGER: When were you arrested, Mr Mazibuko?

MR MAZIBUKO: Regarding the Boipatong massacre?

MR BERGER: Have you been arrested for other things as well?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I'm in prison right now.

MR BERGER: For another massacre?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: When were you arrested in relation to the Boipatong massacre?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't remember the date and the month but what I remember is that I handed myself over to the police station. I was accompanied by my lawyer to the police station.

MR BERGER: You don't know if it was a week after the massacre, a month after the massacre?

MR MAZIBUKO: I can say it was after a month.

MR BERGER: And the other massacre that you're in jail for, which one is that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm in jail for murder and robbery.

MR BERGER: I just want to know which incident you're referring to.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that relevant to the proceedings?

MR BERGER: Indeed Chairperson, if there was another massacre that this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He never said "massacre", he said he's in jail for murder and robbery.

MR BERGER: Well Chairperson, murder of how many people eventually ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, but he is not before us on that matter, he is here in connection with the Boipatong massacre.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I won't pursue it, save to place on record that I've already made it clear that we intend to argue that there was a plan of the IFP to sow mayhem in the Vaal for political purposes. What I am attempting to investigate is whether this action was part of that plan. I won't take it further.

&#9;You know that Victor Keswa was called "The Vaal Monster"?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know.

MR BERGER: How did you get rid of your weapons?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he put them on the roof, on the scaffold. ...(end of tape)

MR BERGER: ... where you left them?

MR MAZIBUKO: After the attack the police came and they searched. They took everything, a weapon and iron bar and everything. So all of them were taken by the police.

MR BERGER: Did the police take your weapons from the place where you had left them?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct they took them. I did not hide them I just threw them there. I just threw them there. So when I hide something I make a point that no-one will get it.

MR BERGER: So the police would have known that those particular weapons came from your room?

MR MAZIBUKO: The way they were taking these weapons, they would not know which weapon belongs to which room because they were just taking them and throwing them into a van.

MR BERGER: Yes, that is so, all the weapons were placed in a pile but what I'm asking you is, when the police took the weapons they took it from your room, before it went onto the pile, the police would have known that those weapons came from your room, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: I cannot say that they knew that they came from my room because those people who were searching there on top, they were throwing everything on the ground. So there were those who were collecting them on the ground and taking them to the people who were standing outside and those people outside would take them and load them into the van.

MR BERGER: I'm just trying to get a simple point answered. When you put your weapons on the scaffolding after the attack, those weapons were still in your room, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: I threw them there after the attack and they were taken from the same place where I threw them after the attack. 

MR BERGER: And the place where you threw them, that scaffolding was part of your room?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And when you threw the weapons there you were not wearing any gloves or anything, you had your bare hands and then you threw the weapons there, am I right?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Mazibuko, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi, we intend rising now but if you want to proceed with the cross-examination you can do so, but we intend rising now and then perhaps you can start when we resume at two.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, it's just one aspect, it will take one or two minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well.

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I conferred with my colleagues and they suggest that we take the adjournment and then we'll proceed when we come back.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll come back at 2 o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, do you have any idea what these documents that have been put before us are or what where they're supposed to go? I mean I see further particulars of Xholisene Mkhize, Paulos Mbatha, Form 1 application, two loose pages and further particulars.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson. These documents which were outstanding in the bundle. When the bundle was prepared they were not yet furnished by the legal representatives for those particular applicants. So they are therefore supplemented into the bundle. In particular Chairperson, if one can look on ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, now other than just giving them to us in this loose fashion, shouldn't they perhaps form part of the bundle and perhaps be paginated somehow?

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I agree, Chairperson, that is the proper way of doing it. Unfortunately I myself just got hold of them when the Committee was just getting in. Otherwise they were not channelled through me properly, unfortunately.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well. Mr Berger, do you have these documents? These are further particulars relating to Xholeseni Mkhize and then Mbatha?

MR BERGER: Yes, we've also been given a bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it a bundle or just ...

MR BERGER: Well in exactly the same fashion that you've given. I believe my learned friend, Mr Strydom handed them out just before we reconvened. 

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well. Well could I ask that perhaps somehow they be paginated or they form part of the other documentation so that reference to them can be easy, or either you can make them a separate bundle or somehow incorporate them into others so that reference to them will be much more easier?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson, I thought it would be practical to number these pages, say for instance the last page which deals with Mkhize, well Xholeseni Mkhize is 107 and then make it 107A, B and C, just to have it in the correct place in the bundle and then the same would apply to Mr Mbatha's further documents.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps it would be convenient to do that when we're dealing with that particular applicant.

MR STRYDOM: I agree, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, would that be in order?

MR BERGER: Yes, that will be in order. We can work on them in the meantime.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, okay very well.

&#9;Mr Mazibuko, may I remind you that you are still under oath.

MR MAZIBUKO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, I have no questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: I wasn't going to hold you to your two minutes.

MS CAMBANIS: I have no questions, thank you, Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chair, I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom?

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson, only one or two questions.

&#9;I just want to clarify one point. At a certain stage you were asked about the reason why you are in custody now and you referred to either another matter or another massacre, did you say matter or massacre?

MR MAZIBUKO: On person, Sir, the murder of one person, Sir.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. Do you have any reason whatsoever to protect the police or the Defence Force?

MR MAZIBUKO: I have no reason. If I knew that the police were there I would notify this Committee. I do not understand that I would be afraid to talk about people who participated in the massacre. If they played a role I could have identified them in my evidence because that is the important issue which should surface. If they were there I would identify that the police were there and they participated. Then if there were soldiers I would identify their identity and their clothes and again their vehicles.

MR STRYDOM: You were also referred to the bundle and the document on page 109 and you were asked about the change, or the fact that certain portions of that question 11(b) was wrong and you were asked about meetings and you were scared to mention meetings. You wanted that reference to the 10th of June to be deleted ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, what is the question?

MR STRYDOM: I just put the background before I put the question. 

&#9;I want to refer you to your statement on page 117 and the first paragraph on that page. I'm going to translate it to you and I want to know if you stand by that.

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you get to that. He has told us that he went through a book, and by that I assume that he meant, he was referring to the application papers which one of the applicants had, and that on going through those documents he made a note of those matters that were inaccurate. He has told us that some of those that he did not refer to as a mistake and were in fact a mistake, and he apologised to Mr Berger for that mistake. What is the point now?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the only point I want to make is that there was a suggestion that there was a particular reason for changing the, or asking for the 10th of June to be deleted, but in his original statement he said that he knew nothing of the attack before the 17th. So there was no reason for him to change that because it was already contained in his statement. That is the point I want to make.

CHAIRPERSON: Well just direct him to that portion of the document.

MR STRYDOM: I want to refer you to page 117, to that paragraph which reads:

&#9;&#9;"I knew nothing about the attack beforehand, it was only on the 17th of June 1992 at the stadium that I heard about it."

Is that indeed your evidence?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is my evidence.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS: Just one question.

&#9;Was Victor Keswa present on the 17th of June in Boipatong?

MR MAZIBUKO: He was not present on the 17th of June.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know where he was?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know.

MS PRETORIUS: Where was he?

MR MAZIBUKO: He was at the Vanderbijl Park Police Station.

MS PRETORIUS: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: May it please you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Mazibuko, I want to take you to where you described these group of attackers, where they were gathering in the veld between Boipatong and the road that leads to Vanderbijl Park. In an answer to Mr Berger's question you said that most of the attackers were in the veld, and I gather that what you meant was that most of the attackers were in the veld before they crossed the road. Is that what you meant?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is what I said. I said when we get out of Boipatong, when I left Boipatong there were people who were standing and others who were sitting down. Others were standing, others were bending, others were sitting down, before we crossed the road.

MR DA SILVA: Now in a question from Mrs Pretorius yesterday you estimated that there were about 200 to 300 attackers, do you recall that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I remember.

MR DA SILVA: Would that be the same amount of people that were gathered in the veld before they crossed the road on the way to KwaMadala?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not say that because when we left Boipatong, there were those who were behind me, there were those who were in front of me, there were those who were already sitting in the veld, when we left Boipatong.

MR DA SILVA: But if you had to make a rough estimate, and I'm now taking you back to your evidence where you say:

&#9;&#9;"Most of the attackers were in the veld."

Do I understand it that it was a large group of about 200 people at least?

MR MAZIBUKO: I said I did not want to commit myself in estimating the number as to who were sitting in the veld or standing in the veld and those who were behind. I don't want to commit myself on that number.

MR DA SILVA: Now you also testified under cross-examination that some people, some were running but others were not moving that fast. When the group crossed the road, were they moving in a military unit like an impie, were they running in a fast jog in the military unit, is that what they were doing?

MR MAZIBUKO: What I can explain is that I don't know the method of military movement. Yes, we were not running fast, the pace was just average but you can say that the person was moving on a faster pace though not faster.

MR DA SILVA: So would you describe this as a fast jog, was everybody jogging in a fast manner back to get to the hostel?

MR MAZIBUKO: Before we crossed the road we saw the soldiers. I could observe that they were trying to move faster so that they should avoid arrest by those soldiers whom we saw. They wanted to be safe.

MR DA SILVA: The point that I'm trying to make, Mr Mazibuko, is that the group that crossed the road, the majority of them were running, I'm not saying running at speed, but in a fast jog across the road, is that how you would describe them?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, they were moving faster.

MR DA SILVA: Now also in regard to a question which Mr Berger put to you, I understood from your evidence yesterday that you described that the two vehicles that were reversing were in the vicinity of the Trek garage and that one vehicle approached you, did I understand your evidence correctly or did all three vehicles approach the group?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I first saw those cars they were on the road between Boipatong and the firms, then they turned to the left to the road towards Vanderbijl Park. When they turned they reduced their speed. After Mr Mabote started shooting, two of these cars reversed then the front one did not turn faster. The driver of the first car did not see that the two vehicles were reversing, therefore he made a U-turn. That is the time when we crossed the road.

MR DA SILVA: Now what I want to clarify, Mr Mazibuko, is it your evidence that all three vehicles were approximately 30 metres away from you, or is it your evidence that only one of the vehicles was approximately 30 metres away from you and the other two were near the Trek garage?

MR MAZIBUKO: They were following each other, there was no-one who was a little bit closer or a little bit further from the other one. I'm not able to explain as to whether the other one was 30 metres and the other on was 15 metres or 20 metres. They were in the same line closer to each other or to one another.

MR DA SILVA: Now Mr Mazibuko, I now dealt with this and it's been dealt with today in regard the amount of vehicles that you saw. Isn't there a possibility, and I want you to think very carefully about this, after the attack there were many vehicles or there were numerous vehicles that patrolled the vicinity of Boipatong and KwaMadala, aren't you making a mistake when you're saying that you saw three vehicles and that you might have seen three vehicles at a later stage and not at the stage when you crossed the road? What I'm putting to you is, aren't you making a mistake that at the stage that you crossed the road, that there was only one vehicle and you might be mistaking that to an incident later that evening?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I saw there were three I don't make a mistake. That's how I observed the situation.

MR DA SILVA: But Mr Mazibuko, you will agree with me that Mr Bajosi was also part of that group, would you agree with that, Hollie Bajosi?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know him, I know him very well.

MR DA SILVA: Do you agree that he was part of the group returning to KwaMadala?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR DA SILVA: In the criminal trial at volume 6, page 577, he describes a single military vehicle, can you explain that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm not able to explain why he's talking about one car because that is what he saw.

MR DA SILVA: But on your description if you have three cars on the road, you can't make a mistake, you either see three cars or you see one car. Mr Bajosi saw one car, one vehicle.

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm not saying I'm making a mistake and I would not say he's making a mistake, that is how he saw. If he says he saw one car, there is no way where I can dispute what he is saying. I listen because it's what he says but I saw three cars.

MR DA SILVA: Do you know Mr Oupa Maloi? He also testified at the criminal trial.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know him.

MR DA SILVA: He was also part of this group, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: And at volume 12, page 1318 he talks of one military vehicle, he doesn't talk of three vehicles, can you explain how he makes that mistake?

MR MAZIBUKO: I'm not able to explain why he made that mistake because even in Court both of them made a mistake. One said I was having a knopkierrie, the other one said I had a gun, which means they committed two mistakes which are different because I said I saw three cars and both of them saw one car. So I don't know how to comment on that aspect.

MR DA SILVA: The point that I wish to stress, Mr Mazibuko, is that both Mr Bajosi and Mr Maloi testified that they saw one vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva, I have been somewhat patient. The witness has repeatedly said he saw three motor vehicles and your instructions are that there was one motor vehicle. The point has been canvassed thoroughly. I mean, should we be belabouring this point?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, I'm not going to take the matter any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: In regard to this group of persons crossing the road, my information is that it took approximately two minutes to cross the road, can you give any comment in that regard? For the group to cross from the one side of the road to the other, can you give any comment in that regard?

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to be clear on the question. It took approximately two minutes for the whole group or it normally take two minutes for a person to cross?

MR DA SILVA: It took two minutes for the whole group, Mr Chairman.

MR MAZIBUKO: There is nothing I can say because I don't know how long we took to cross. If I may say, to cross there it takes seconds but I did not observe how long we took. I would not know as to whether all of us, how long did we take. I did not pay attention to the time, how we took, my worry was just to cross and go to Madala hostel. I didn't observe. 

MR DA SILVA: I gain an impression that you're not very clear about the time of when the group crossed the road, are you able to estimate more or less when this happened, at what time of day?

MR MAZIBUKO: I don't want to lie, I don't want to lie what time was it.

MR DA SILVA: My information is that it would be approximately at 10.30 in the evening, would you dispute that?

MR MAZIBUKO: If they say that, I would not dispute, I'm listening.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, I'm sorry to interrupt but it might become relevant later. Just for the purposes of clarity, when my learned friend says: "My information is that it took two minutes for the group to cross the road" and so on, is this material that emanates that emanates from the South African National Defence Force, in which case one would then be able to use it in cross-examining such witnesses or does it come from a different source?

MR DA SILVA: Mr Chairman, those are my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Those are his instructions.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, unfortunately that doesn't assist me.

CHAIRPERSON: Suffice as to say that what he is putting to this witness is on the basis of his instructions.

MR BERGER: From the Defence Force?

MR DA SILVA: I only act for one party, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Put another question.

MR DA SILVA: May it please you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Now a last aspect, Mr Mazibuko, from where you were standing and looking at these vehicles, can you estimate at all or could you give an idea of how many soldiers were in the vehicles? Is it possible for you to do so?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I would not be able to estimate. 

MR DA SILVA: My instructions are that on the single vehicle there were four soldiers, would you dispute the amount of soldiers on the vehicle that was closest to you?

MR MAZIBUKO: I will not disagree with you because I don't know or I did not know at that time how many soldiers were in one car. 

&#9;I want to explain to you shortly in this way; when you look on one side, you can only see their hats or their heads. On the side where I was standing I saw that soldiers were inside but you would not be able to tell how many soldiers are in that car or in that vehicle.

MR DA SILVA: I have not further questions, Mr Chairman. There is one aspect that I undertook to come back to the Committee about, and that was in regard to the distance between the applicant and the furtherest wall. My attorney measured the distance and he measured 29 paces, so the estimate of 30 paces is approximately correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And I take it that in regard to the question of the approximate time that the motor vehicle you said was in around the vicinity, is 10.30?

MR DA SILVA: That is correct and that is precisely why I put it to the witness, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr da Silva.

MS CAMBANIS: Honourable Chairperson, may I ask, following Mr Berger's enquiry, about what Mr da Silva has been putting, he has furnished us with a copy of the reply to our memorandum and nowhere in that memorandum does he talk about information that a group was seen crossing, that it took a period of two minutes. We don't, or I don't understand what he means by his instructions, it doesn't appear in his reply, is he going to tender a witness, is there a report or what is this information, is it going to be placed before this Committee?

CHAIRPERSON: For the purposes of this inquiry in these proceedings, we are satisfied that he is acting on his instructions. We know that he is acting for the Defence Force and those are the instructions given to him by the Defence Force. 

&#9;Whether he will call witnesses is a matter on which he has to make a decision. The reason why he is here is because the Defence Force is implicated and that is why he is here.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms ...(indistinct)

MS TANZER: No re-examination.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lax?

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Mazibuko, you mentioned Richard Dlamini, Mr Matanda 

and Mr Mkhize going round to various rooms telling people to go and burn the items that were looted from Boipatong, is that correct?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Now when Mr Mkhize gave evidence yesterday, he denied any knowledge of goods being burnt or playing any part in giving any instructions for those goods to be burnt. Now in fairness I just want you to comment on that.

MR MAZIBUKO: Mr Mkhize did not - if he disagrees with that fact, I don't know but I saw him and that is why I testified before this Commission that I saw him.

MR LAX: Thanks. Were you aware that Victor Keswa was reputed to have a gang?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not know that.

MR LAX: And all the allegations about his activities which led to him being called "The Monster of the Vaal", did you know about those activities?

MR MAZIBUKO: I didn't know about those activities.

MR LAX: Did you know about the allegations?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I learnt from people when they were commenting about him but the way I knew him he was not like that, the way he was portrayed.

MR LAX: Did you ever ask him about those allegations?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not.

MR LAX: You were never part of any gang that he may have led?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I have never been part to any gang.

MR LAX: Why did you go and visit him in jail?

MR MAZIBUKO: The reason was that he was my friend even whilst we were in the township.

MR LAX: Now, you said that you were aware of the complaints of the residents, you were questioned about the complaints of the residents, about the attacks on them, and you went on to say that you were one of those people who were complaining, do you remember that?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do remember.

MR LAX: You said you weren't interested in attending any of the meetings, you were just interested in the safety of your family and dealing with the people who were attacking your family, is that right?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, you're right.

MR LAX: So what steps did you take to deal with those people who were attacking your family?

MR MAZIBUKO: When I was at Madala hostel, what was in my mind firstly was the welfare of my family, as to where they are, are they safe or not, the house is not burnt, there is no-one within my family who has been attacked. Those are the issues which occupied my mind. When it entered my mind, anything which I would do at that time I would not be able to concentrate, I would not even have an appetite because I would be eating and I would be thinking of them as to what are they eating at that time or do they have that time to eat. So those are the issues which occupied my mind all the time.

MR LAX: I understood that your family was attacked, am I mistaken in that understanding?

MR MAZIBUKO: Not that they were attacked. I thought perhaps they would be attacked or if they can be attacked what could happen to them.

MR LAX: So they weren't attacked?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, they were never attacked but people came to look for me in my house.

MR LAX: Then what were you complaining about? Your family weren't attacked, what complaint did you have?

MR MAZIBUKO: What scared me - how can I put it, I did not have complaints to take them to the committee, we were discussing within ourselves, those who came from the township, as to whether, we were asking ourselves as to whether, or getting reports from those who came from the township, as to whether who is attacked, who is not attacked. Maybe the people who attacked me could attack my family also.

MR LAX: Yes, but you said you were one of the residents who had complaints about being attacked, and when you were asked to explain you said that it was your family that you were worried about and not yourself. Do you understand what I'm tying to put to you?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I do.

MR DA SILVA: So if they weren't attacked, what I'm trying to understand is what complaints did you then have.

MR MAZIBUKO: The main complain was my shooting.

MR LAX: But that was a matter that was over and done with already before you even came to KwaMadala.

MR MAZIBUKO: I went to Madala hostel whilst I was still limping, immediately after I had been shot. It was not after a long time.

MR LAX: You said during your evidence that it was your job to break windows, that's how you described it. You were busy with your job breaking windows, that is how you put it, what did you mean by that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was explaining that I did not attack any person, what I was busy with at that time was breaking windows.

MR LAX: So the main thing that you did was break windows. How many houses did you break windows in?

MR MAZIBUKO: Many houses, many houses. My hand was tired the way I was using it to break the windows.

MR LAX: Can you estimate, more than 10, more than 20, more than 30?

MR MAZIBUKO: That would be a small number if I said 20 or 30, I am not able to explain how many houses. I entered Boipatong, I started breaking windows and at the end I was still breaking windows.

MR LAX: You see, you were asked by Mr Berger:

&#9;"Why did you break the windows?"

And you said you broke the windows to see whether there were SDU members inside, do you remember that?

MR MAZIBUKO: I remember when I was saying - Mr Berger asked me how did it come that we should break windows whilst we went there to attack the SDUs, I said the reason is that for us to break windows is that when we were shooting some of the SDUs went into the yards and we were not able to see where they were hiding, we thought maybe they are in those houses. That is why we started breaking those windows. That is what I remember saying.

MR LAX: But surely, after the first few houses where you saw nobody inside, you must have realised they must have carried on running and disappeared somewhere else? Why was it necessary to break so many houses' windows?

MR MAZIBUKO: It just happened, to break windows. Others were entering into the houses, so it just happened. No-one said to somebody you should stop because those people are not there, we cannot find them in those houses, let me stop breaking those windows.

MR LAX: Well wasn't it rather that you wanted to teach this community a lesson, you went around destroying their property, isn't that really what you were doing?

MR MAZIBUKO: That's what I've explained, that something of that sort would happen again, that one of the families would die and the property is destroyed and the windows are destroyed. That's one of those reasons.

MR LAX: I'm asking you whether that was your intention in doing that.

MR MAZIBUKO: No, that was not my intention to do that. For me to break those windows it just happened, it was not a premeditated intention that when I got to Boipatong I should break windows. It just happened.

MR LAX: So you don't know why you broke those windows?

MR MAZIBUKO: I would not give a specific reason. What I am saying is that we just started breaking windows because we thought the SDUs ran into those houses.

MR LAX: But they couldn't have run into all the houses whose windows you broke, you mentioned more than 30.

MR MAZIBUKO: May you please repeat the question?

MR LAX: You've mentioned that you broke more than 30 houses and that would be a small number you said. They couldn't have run into all those houses.

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, they would not be able to run into all of those houses.

MR LAX: So what we're trying to understand is what your objective was in breaking those windows.

MR MAZIBUKO: I did not have an intention as to why I was breaking those windows. I saw others continuing breaking the windows and then I started breaking the windows.

MR LAX: You just got carried away, is that what you are saying?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: You see earlier in your evidence you also spoke about, when we were talking about teaching the community a lesson, the residents a lesson, you said that if they wouldn't reprimand the SDU members the same thing that happened in Boipatong would happen again, and you said people would lose their properties. That's how you described it.

MR MAZIBUKO: I'll explain it in this way. I was saying if they don't reprimand them that would happen again. I would say that would stick in their mind, that if you have kidnapped one Inkatha member, kill him or burn him, they would know that anything would happen. It may happen that these people would come and pay revenge. They would have the same problems which we encountered before.

MR LAX: The point I'm trying to make is, was losing their properties part of the lesson that you were teaching them?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, Sir.

MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson, I've no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mazibuko, you said there was a fight between yourself ...(inaudible).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR SIBANYONI: To whom were you referring by "fellow comrades"?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike was not on, it cuts. Can you please repeat your question?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you. Mr Mazibuko, at the beginning of your evidence you said while you were living in Sebokeng there was a fight between yourself and your fellow comrades, to whom were you referring by "fellow comrades"?

MR MAZIBUKO: I was referring to the ANC supporters in Sebokeng.

MR SIBANYONI: Were you at any stage an ANC supporter yourself?

MR MAZIBUKO: I've never been a member or a supporter of the ANC.

MR SIBANYONI: But why do you refer to them as "fellow comrades", as if you are with them?

MR MAZIBUKO: Well I did not refer to them as "fellow comrades" but what I said is I was a friend to a guy called Ntwana. So that time he was a member of the IFP, so there were allegations that I was also a member of the IFP.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, that's the single question.

ADV SIGODI: It was put to some of the other applicants that women were raped, did you see any of that happening?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not see that happen.

ADV SIGODI: Do you know Sonny Michael Mkwanazi?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I know him very well.

ADV SIGODI: Did you see him on that day?

MR MAZIBUKO: I did not see him.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Prior the attack on Boipatong your family

had never been attacked.

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you been attacked?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I was attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you fear that your family might be attacked?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, I had that fear that my family would be attacked.

CHAIRPERSON: And that is the fear that you would have had in regard to your relatives?

MR MAZIBUKO: That is correct, that is what worried me a lot.

CHAIRPERSON: So you couldn't possibly have had any complaint?

MR MAZIBUKO: There was nothing else, the only thing that worried me was my parents' safety.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why didn't you tell us that, that you feared that your family might be attacked?

MR MAZIBUKO: I do not understand the question clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, you were asked at length as to what complaint did you have and it turned out to be, all that happened is that you feared that your family might be attacked. So rather than telling us about this complaint, why didn't you just tell us that all there was is that you feared?

MR MAZIBUKO: If I remember well I said that, that when I arrived at KwaMadala hostel I was always worried about my parents. That is what I said before.

CHAIRPERSON: The television set that you picked up, you were going to put that in your room.

MR MAZIBUKO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: During the course of that evening did you hit any human being?

MR MAZIBUKO: No, I did not hit any human being.

CHAIRPERSON: But in the houses that you went to, did any of the occupants perhaps come out running?

MR MAZIBUKO: Most of the people who came out of the houses, who were running out, were women and I did not intend to hit women. But if I saw somebody, a man of my age, I would make sure that when I leave him he is cold.

CHAIRPERSON: But you didn't come across any man, did you?

MR MAZIBUKO: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. 

&#9;Is there anything arising from the questions?

MR STRYDOM: No further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS PRETORIUS: I have none.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY R DA SILVA

MR MAPOMA: No questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR BERGER: Nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

MR MALINDI: Nothing further, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mazibuko, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;21ST JANUARY 1999

NAME:&#9;RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE

APPLICATION NO:

MATTER:&#9;BOIPATONG MASSACRE

DAY :&#9;4

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, are you ready with your next witness, or do you want us to take a short break?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I would like to just go through the statement with the next applicant. He was the person who was never here and only arrived this morning for the first time. So I think I could use a little bit of time going through his statement. I ask for a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: So as to get a sense of what's ...(indistinct), the next witness that you intend calling is Mr Magubane?

MR STRYDOM: That's indeed so, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Would people in the hall please keep quiet.

&#9;Do you know at this stage who you would call after Mr Magubane?

MR STRYDOM: The next witness I intend calling is Sonny Michael Mkwanazi.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the applicant who has always been in prison?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, Mr Magubane and Sonny Michael Mkwanazi have both been in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well, we will then give you the opportunity to recognise Mr Magubane. We will come back at 3.30. 

MR STRYDOM: That will be sufficient time, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: May I see counsel in the Committee room please.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I've been asked to make an announcement to the following effect: Members of the audience are requested not to make a noise whilst they are inside the toilets which are at the back of the stage.

MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, at this stage of the proceedings I just want to get on record. My name is H Botha and I'm appearing on behalf of Mr Peens, an implicated party in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Botha.

MR BOTHA: May I be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, by all means.

MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it that by being excused you mean finding some convenient place at which you will be sitting in order to follow the proceedings?

MR BOTHA: Indeed so, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson. The next applicant to testify is Debogo Magubane.

CHAIRPERSON: What are your full names Mr Magubane?

CHAIRPERSON: Ruben, what is the second name?

MR MAGUBANE: Maganga.

CHAIRPERSON: For the record can you just spell that for us please?

MR MAGUBANE: I'm not able to spell my name.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. I take it that you are going to speak Sotho?

RUBEN MAGANGA DEBOGO MAGUBANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.

&#9;Yes, Mr Strydom?

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you.

&#9;Mr Magubane, what is your level of education?

MR MAGUBANE: I did not go to school, Sir.

MR STRYDOM: I'm going to show you a form contained in the bundle on page 79, page 80, page 81, and I'm also going to show you a mark, a cross, did you make that cross on this document?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now this document is Form 1 has been explained to you and that what is written there has been explained to you, do you confirm that contents of this document?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Next to this document are two further pages, an annexure answering some of the questions asked in the form, has this also been explained to you?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Do you agree with the contents?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: The one answer given in this annexure or the explanation I would rather say, is to explain the political objective which you wanted to achieve by attacking Boipatong. Now apart from what is stated here I want you to explain in your own words why did you attack Boipatong.

MR MAGUBANE: I'll be able to explain.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, go ahead.

MR MAGUBANE: In 1991, my parents' house was destroyed, their house was burnt in Sharpeville. I don't know why. People came to look for me and I was not inside. That is why I took part in the attack in Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: After you'd moved into KwaMadala hostel, could you move freely in Boipatong or any of the other Vaal Triangle townships?

MR MAGUBANE: In the whole of Vaal Triangle I was not able to move freely. My parents were not allowed to see them with me or to - they ran to Boipatong when their house was burnt in Sharpeville but to go to them in Boipatong I was not able to. If I were to enter in Boipatong or Sharpeville or anywhere in the Vaal Triangle I would be killed.

MR STRYDOM: You testified that your parents' house in Sharpeville was burnt down. What I want to know is why did you not attack Sharpeville rather than Boipatong?

MR MAGUBANE: Sharpeville was too far from KwaMadala hostel. The nearest place was our target, which was Boipatong. If Sharpeville was nearer to KwaMadala hostel, we would attack Sharpeville but because Boipatong was near and we were able to go there on foot, we chose Boipatong as our target.

MR STRYDOM: In the answer you said that the ANC people were in control of the Self Defence Units, can you just explain that?

MR MAGUBANE: It is because that in the whole of the township, if you were kidnapped by the SDUs, all residents of Boipatong would take part in your torture or in your attack.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know to which political party the Self Defence Units belonged to?

MR MAGUBANE: I would not say I know which organisation they fell in. I was a member of the IFP, there was no member of the IFP who belonged to the SDUs. I would not say as to whether they fell within PAC or ANC or as to whether they fall in one organisation but I know that PAC was never suppressed or harassed to the extent that they had to leave the township as we did as members of the IFP.

MR STRYDOM: Certain particulars were required from you, the questions appear on page 85 and 86, and your answers on page 87 to page 89. Do you confirm the answers?

MR MAGUBANE: Maybe if you can read them to me I will be able to confirm or not.

MR STRYDOM: Yes. I'll read them again. The question is - and you indicated you want to effect a change there, that's to me. 

&#9;"When did you first move into the KwaMadala hostel?"

The answer given here:

&#9;"More or less January 1992."

Is that correct?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I said so, that early January is the time that I went to KwaMadala. The date is the wrong one, I went there in 1991.

MR STRYDOM: So you want that date to read 1991?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: The next question:

&#9;"Were there two groups of attackers?"

And your answer was:

&#9;"Yes."

Do you stand by that?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"Who led the two groups?"

You said:

&#9;"Mkhize and Damarra."

Are you happy with that?

MR MAGUBANE: That is Damarra Chonco and Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: And the question was:

&#9;"In which one were you?"

You said:

&#9;"I'm not sure anymore but I think it was Mkhize's group."

Do you stand by that answer?

MR MAGUBANE: My answer was that I was not sure in which group I was but I saw Mr Mkhize, so I fell under Mkhize's group.

MR STRYDOM: The question was:

&#9;"Did you see AK47 rifles on the eve of the 17th?"

And your answer was:

&#9;"Yes."

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is true.

MR STRYDOM: The next question:

&#9;"Where did you first see these weapons on this evening?"

And you said:

&#9;"At the stadium."

INTERPRETER: May the legal representative please be slow, we are not able to follow the questions led by the legal representative.

MR STRYDOM: I will go slower.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps it would be useful if you also indicate where you are reading at this stage so that they can follow.

MR STRYDOM: I'll see they get a copy of that.

MS CAMBANIS: I've just handed a copy to them, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, thank you very much.

MR LAX: They're indicating they need another one. The other panel needs one.

INTERPRETER: You may continue, Sir.

MR STRYDOM: Alright, thank you. I'll read the third question, question 3.2:

&#9;"Did Mr Damarra Chonco bring weapons to the hostel in a vehicle, a Blue Nissan Skyline?"

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, at the stadium.

MR STRYDOM: And you answer to 3.2 is:

&#9;"I saw the blue Nissan Skyline at the stadium but did not see that Damarra brought any weapons."

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 3.3.:

&#9;"What happened to these weapons after the attack?"

Your answer to that was:

&#9;"I don't know."

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Question 4:

&#9;"Were you present at the general meeting held in the hostel approximately a week before the attack?"

Your answer:

&#9;"Yes, I was there."

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Question 4.1:

&#9;"Was Mr Themba Khosa present during this meeting?"

Your answer:

&#9;"No."

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 4.2:

&#9;"Did Mr Bhekinsene Mkhize personally address and warn hostel dwellers during this meeting to be prepared because of the pending attack?"

Your answer:

&#9;"Yes."

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Let me just read the answer:

&#9;"Yes, Mr Mkhize mentioned the possibility of an attack but he did not mention any specific date."

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 4.3:

&#9;"Give particulars of the issues discussed during this meeting."

Your answer to 4.3:

&#9;"The hostel dwellers, including me, complained to Mr Mkhize about the ongoing intimidation and problems with the people of Boipatong and we urged upon him to do something about it."

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Question number 5:

&#9;"Did Mr Themba Khosa and Mr Humphrey Ndlovu visit KwaMadala after the attack?"

You answered:

&#9;"Yes."

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Question 5.1:

&#9;"If so, give particulars of the nature of this visit."

Your answer:

&#9;"They addressed a meeting after the attack."

And question 5.2:

&#9;"Did Mr Khosa warn the hostel dwellers at the meeting that they should burn all evidence that linked the attackers to the massacre, including goods stolen from the hostel and clothes stained with blood?"

Your answer:

&#9;"Mr Khosa did not know that we took things from Boipatong and he also did not warn us to burn all evidence."

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Question 6:

&#9;"Did you see any person firing with firearms during this attack? If yes, please supply particulars."

And your answer to that was:

&#9;"Yes, I saw that the following people fired shots: Smit, Sipho Buthelezi, Thomas Sipho Lukozi, Themba Mabote and Mkhize."

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I myself had a 9mm pistol with 16 rounds in it. I fired 13 shots because when I got back to the hostel there were only three rounds left. I fired shots at various people. I would estimate I hit four to five people. I don't know if they died as a result of being hit."

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And the last question is:

&#9;"Did you see any person pick up spent cartridges? If so please supply particulars."

Your answer was:

&#9;"No."

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: So are you happy with these particulars as read to you now, and the answers?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: One of the answers you have given here is that you say:

&#9;"During the meeting prior to the attack the hostel dwellers complained to Mkhize about the ongoing intimidation and problems with the people of Boipatong."

Now I want to ask you if the complaints just relate to Boipatong or other townships in the Vaal triangle?

MR MAGUBANE: It was not only about Boipatong, it was all about the townships within the Vaal Triangle.

MR STRYDOM: You have also made an affidavit, and I will show you this affidavit but I'm firstly going to show you your cross on page 92. Do you remember making this affidavit and making that cross?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: This affidavit was shown to you before you testified, is that right?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: You indicated to me that I should also read this affidavit to you yet again during the course of the hearing. I will now go ahead to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything in the affidavit which the witness does not agree with?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the reason why he asked me to read it again is because we did not have a proper interpreter and he couldn't point to anything that is wrong but he elected that's it's properly interpreted to him at the stage when we have the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, alright. Well in that event, proceed.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson. I'm now going to translate this and I'll try my best to translate it into English for the purpose of the interpreters. As it stand here - I'm just going to start with the body, the hand-written part of the affidavit:

&#9;"I moved into ..."

That's now reference to KwaMadala.

&#9;"... at more or less January 1992."

Now you indicated to me that that 1992 is not correct, that should read 1991, is that right?

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I previously lived in Sharpeville."

MR MAGUBANE: ...(no English translation).

MR STRYDOM: No, the next sentence is:

&#9;"I previously lived in Sharpeville. The reason why I moved to KwaMadala is as a result of fighting with the MK members who fired shots at me."

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"My life was in danger. They said that I was a member of the IFP."

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I was not a member but only a supporter. Approximately a week before the attack I was at the meeting which was addressed by Mkhize. All the residents complained to him that our people were killed by the comrades in Boipatong. We could not move around freely. We felt threatened. We wanted Mkhize to take a decision to act against the comrades. He said that we must keep ourselves ready for an attack. 

&#9;Up till the night of the 17th of June 1992 I heard nothing further about the attack. The night ..."

Or:

&#9;"... That night of the attack the siren went off. We all went to the stadium. Women were sent back and we were sent to go and collect our weapons to attack Boipatong. I went to fetch my 9mm pistol and I went back to the stadium. Mkhize, Damarra and other Indunas were in control at the stadium. We all went out to Boipatong. 

&#9;In Boipatong I was in Mkhize's group. We broke down a wire barrier. We saw a certain amount of people at a distance around fires. We fired shots in their direction. They ran away. We started going into premises. We actually were looking for SDUs and comrades. 

&#9;The group, including me, went further to attack everybody and everything. I started shooting people in houses and also outside. I don't know at which houses. People jumped through windows. Some of the group stabbed people. I cannot remember who stabbed. I can remember that Samuel Tshabango hit someone with a kierrie. Some of the people plundered houses. I took a blanket and a hi-fi set. 

&#9;We then left Boipatong. I went with the group through the main gate of the hostel. The next day many policemen came. They said that the people of Boipatong are blaming us. We heard that the people of Boipatong wanted to attack us. We went out to the robots to wait for them. The police stopped us and we went back to the hostel.

&#9;I cannot remember who gave instructions that the good should be burnt but the loot was burnt that night. The goods that I took was also burnt. 

&#9;I feel very bad about everything. I admit that I partook and ask the families who lost members that they must forgive me. I furthermore confirm the political objective as set out in my original application."

Do you confirm the contents of the agreement as has been translated now to you?

CHAIRPERSON: Affidavit, Mr Strydom.

MR STRYDOM: Sorry. 

&#9;That should be affidavit. The affidavit as translated to you?

MR MAGUBANE: That's correct, I agree with the contents of the document.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person with the name of Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you meet him for the first time?

MR MAGUBANE: I didn't hear the question quite properly, will you repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: The question was, where did you meet him for the first time?

MR MAGUBANE: I only saw him at KwaMadala hostel. He was still young then. That was after the Boipatong massacre.

MR STRYDOM: As far as you know was he part of the group that attacked Boipatong on the night of the 17th of June 1992?

MR MAGUBANE: No, I started knowing Matanzima after I was arrested for this Boipatong massacre. That was the first time that I knew Matanzima. I didn't know him when we attacked the people of Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: He has made an affidavit and in that affidavit he states that before the attack on Boipatong a person by the name of Peens, a member of the Murder and Robbery Squad, came to the hostel and addressed the residents, do you have any knowledge of that?

MR MAGUBANE: Well I don't remember that because I didn't know Peens then.

MR STRYDOM: But before the attack, did a policeman come to the hostel and address the residents about an attack?

MR MAGUBANE: No, I have never seen a policeman there.

MR STRYDOM: You have already indicated that your name is also Ruben.

MR MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now in his affidavit he further states that on the night of the attack Caspirs met your group or Caspirs were part at a certain point and a person with the name of Ruben, together with Gachene, Themba Kubeka, Lucky, Sipho, Makuka, Tsamo(?), Dondo and Mkhize got into the Caspirs, do you know anything about this?

MR MAGUBANE: Well there is nothing like that. That is untrue. It's the first time that I hear about that.

MR STRYDOM: From the time that you left the hostel on the night of the attack until you came back, did you ever set foot in a caspir?

MR MAGUBANE: No, I did not.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were in Boipatong busy with the attack, did you see any white people that also formed part of the attack or of the attackers?

MR MAGUBANE: I did not see any whites. Even at our meeting after we have attacked, there were no whites. I didn't see any white men.

MR STRYDOM: During the course of the attack did you see any military or police vehicles inside Boipatong?

MR MAGUBANE: No, I did not.

MR STRYDOM: During the course of that night did you see any military vehicles?

MR MAGUBANE: The army vehicle I saw was outside. That is when we returned.

MR STRYDOM: Can you explain more or less where you saw that vehicle when you returned.

MR MAGUBANE: I saw that army vehicle on the road that moves from Vanderbijl Park to Sebokeng. It was travelling along that road, it was not inside Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know Themba Mabote?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I know him.

MR STRYDOM: Did he do anything in particular at the stage when the group left Boipatong?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, Themba Mabote shot, but I was not aware who he was shooting, but I remember him shooting when we were outside Boipatong, on our return.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Victor Keswa?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know that his nickname in the Vaal Triangle was "The Vaal Monster"?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Was he a leader of a so-called "hit squad"?

MR MAGUBANE: I now nothing about the hit squad. I didn't know whether he was whether he was part of the group or a particular group know as "hit squad".

MR STRYDOM: Did you used to move with him and go out with him out of the hostel to various places?

MR MAGUBANE: Well I don't remember being with Victor, even going to the town.

MR STRYDOM: So were you not a member of the hit squad yourself, of a hit squad?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I have never been a member of the hit squad. It's the first time that I learn of hit squads, here at the TRC. I've never been part of the hit squad.

MR STRYDOM: You've indicated already that you fired approximately 13 shots with your 9mm pistol in the township, and you also said that you went into houses and fired shots there an also outside.

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now if I show you map, Exhibit J, can you give an indication where you went into houses?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I'll do so. 

MR STRYDOM: The witness points to houses in Papedi Street. 

&#9;Do you know how many houses you went into in Papedi?

MR MAGUBANE: Well I don't remember which houses I entered in Papedi but I remember in that street there are houses that I entered. It might be between two or three houses.

MR STRYDOM: And did you fire shots in the houses in Papedi Street which you went into?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: Now do you remember when you fired the shots, did you fire shots towards males, women, children?

MR MAGUBANE: I shot everybody, everybody I come across in the house. Whether it was a woman, a man or a child, I didn't care about that, I wanted to kill because my intention was to kill there.

MR STRYDOM: You also said that you've shot people but you cannot say that they died, do you still stand by that?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR STRYDOM: Why don't you know if they died or not?

MR MAGUBANE: After shooting a person I didn't go and look as to whether he is dead or not, I went on.

MR STRYDOM: Now apart from the houses in Papedi Street, can you indicate on this map other houses where you went into?

MR MAGUBANE: In this street I'm pointing to my lawyer.

MR STRYDOM: The witness points to Sekukuni Street. &#9;Sekukuni Street is one street away from Slovo Park, did you go into Slovo Park at all?

MR MAGUBANE: No, I did not.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember which route you followed from Sekukuni Street to get to the other side of Boipatong to leave the township?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I remember which road I followed.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just give an indication? Just for the record, the witness points that he took Bafokeng Street and he stayed in Bafokeng Street right through Boipatong on his way to leave Boipatong. The witness also pointed out certain houses towards the end of Bafokeng Street.

&#9;What do you want to say about them?

MR MAGUBANE: That is where I took the blankets and certain goods. It's a yellow house and big windows.

MR STRYDOM: Just for the record, the witness points to a ...(intervention)

MR MAGUBANE: There's a yellow house, I don't know whether it's on this side or not but it's a yellow house with big windows.

MR STRYDOM: The house numbers being pointed to is in the vicinity of 738 to 740, 742 and 744, in the vicinity of those four houses in Bafokeng Street.

&#9;Is that correct, that area there?

MR MAGUBANE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What house numbers?

MR STRYDOM: The area he shows is 738, 740, 742 and 744, more or less that area there.

&#9;Those houses, is that correct? Is that the area there where the yellow house is to be found?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, those are the houses where I took the property.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is 738 here?

MR STRYDOM: 738 is - let me explain it like this. Bafokeng Street forms a corner there with Shlube Street, towards the end of the map on the left-hand side. The house on the corner is 734, the next on is 736 and then 738, 740, 742. So that's the general area the witness has pointed out.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, okay. Is that a place where there is a cross which is encircled in pink, at least on my Exhibit J?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I haven't got that on my map, my map has been used at the criminal trial and there are many other crosses, so I can't really verify that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, but what he is pointing - he's point out at the vicinity of the point where Bafokeng meets Shlube Street, is that right?

MR STRYDOM: The point he points out is more to the right-hand side of the map.

CHAIRPERSON: But it is in that vicinity?

MR STRYDOM: Ja, in that vicinity, those houses in that vicinity.

&#9;So those are the houses you took the property. Did you leave after that in the direction of Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

MR STRYDOM: After you've left Boipatong and when you got back to the hostel, did you go back to the stadium or directly to your room?

MR MAGUBANE: I went to my room first.

MR STRYDOM: And after that?

MR MAGUBANE: I put the property that I brought with me and the gun that I had and I checked the bullets which were left and then I realised that I was left with only three bullets. Then I took my gun and I put it in a safe place and then I slept after that.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you hide your gun?

MR MAGUBANE: I hid this gun in a place which was used as a kitchen before. That is where I hid my gun.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know Prince Vanana Zulu?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR STRYDOM: Was he part of the attack?

MR MAGUBANE: No, he was not.

MR STRYDOM: According to your own personal knowledge, was he at the hostel at the time of the attack?

MR MAGUBANE: No, he was not at the hostel.

MR STRYDOM: You've already testified that you know Victor Keswa.

MR MAGUBANE: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Was he there on the day of the attack?

MR MAGUBANE: No, he was not.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where he was?

MR MAGUBANE: Victor Keswa was a person who was arrested from time to time. He was once arrested under Article 3. On many occasions the police would come and collect him. Even when they meet him somewhere they would just take him and arrest him.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were in Boipatong, did you see that any person or any woman was raped?

MR MAGUBANE: No, I did not see anything. The way the situation was then, it wouldn't be possible for me to see a person who was raping. If I had seen somebody raping I would imagine that he is one of the people that we were going to attack because the people who were with me would not do that.

MR STRYDOM: One last aspect. You referred to groups, now whilst moving through Boipatong, did the specific groups stay together in a close formation, or can you explain the people's movement through the township?

MR MAGUBANE: We spread ourselves in the township, we were not in groups.

MR STRYDOM: You said that you were, as far as you can remember, with Mr Mkhize's group, when was he last time for you to see him after you've entered Boipatong?

MR MAGUBANE: The last time I saw him was when he said that we should divide into amabuto. That was the last time that I saw him. When we entered Boipatong and started fighting I didn't see him.

MR STRYDOM: You said that you saw people firing shots, including Mr Mkhize, when did you see that he fired a shot?

MR MAGUBANE: That is when we entered Boipatong. That is the place where we saw the comrades.

MR STRYDOM: You also said that Smith fired a shot, where did you see him?

MR MAGUBANE: Smith was always with me, shooting all the time. I would kick the door and then he'll get in and start shooting and at some times he would kick the door and I would start shooting.

MR STRYDOM: And Sipho Buthelezi?

MR MAGUBANE: He had a "haelgeweer". 

MR STRYDOM: Just to get back to Smith, what kind of weapon did he have?

MR MAGUBANE: He had a shotgun, that is the gun he had with him. That was his own gun.

MR STRYDOM: Is that the same as Sipho Buthelezi, a "haelgeweer"?

MR MAGUBANE: I've already explained that Sipho Buthelezi had a "haelgeweer".

MR STRYDOM: Maybe I just heard wrongly. I just want to get clarity. Did he say a "short" or a "shotgun"?

&#9;Smith's firearm, was it short gun or a shotgun?

MR MAGUBANE: It was a small gun.

MR STRYDOM: .765, is that correct?

MR MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MR STRYDOM: And Sipho Lukozi?

MR MAGUBANE: Sipho Lukozi had an AK47.

MR STRYDOM: When did he fire shots?

MR MAGUBANE: I met him in the township. I don't know when he started shooting but I met him in the township.

MR STRYDOM: And Themba Mabote?

MR MAGUBANE: He's one of the people that I met inside the township. I met him inside the township.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you see him firing a shot?

MR MAGUBANE: I saw him running but I could not see whether he was shooting somebody because the people he was shooting at were on the street.

MR STRYDOM: Do you have any reason why you would protect the police?

MR MAGUBANE: I cannot protect the police or I'll never say anything about the police. If they were there I would say that they were there because what I'm saying toady is the truth. I'm telling the truth when I say the police were not there. They did not help us. They were not involved. 

&#9;If maybe people may say that they participated by helping with the plans, maybe I would agree because I was not involved during the planning stages but inside Boipatong I didn't see any policemen.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes Ma’am?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PRETORIUS: Why did you go and live in KwaMadala after your parent's house was burnt in Sharpeville?

MR MAGUBANE: May you please repeat because my earphone seems to have a little problem.

MS PRETORIUS: Why did you go and live in KwaMadala after your parents' house was burnt in Sharpeville?

MR MAGUBANE: My apologies again, I cannot hear clearly. I can hear the voice but you're not audible enough.

MR LAX: If you just move that thing forward a little bit, that black thing. It's just blocking the signal where it is. Can you hear better now?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes. May you please repeat the question, Ma’am?

MS PRETORIUS: Why did you go and live in KwaMadala after your parents' house was burnt in Sharpeville?

MR MAGUBANE: It is because at that time after the - because they were calling me Inkatha at that time, therefore I had to run to KwaMadala hostel because I had no place to run to.

MS PRETORIUS: Was it safe at KwaMadala hostel if you were a member of Inkatha?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, it was safe.

MS PRETORIUS: Do you know who killed Victor Keswa?

MR MAGUBANE: We were both in prison. I heard the following day when I was told by the police but I don't know who killed him. I don't know who killed him but he died in the hands of the police.

MS PRETORIUS: What kind of gun did you have?

MR MAGUBANE: I had a 9mm.

MS PRETORIUS: How many bullets did you shoot?

MR MAGUBANE: When I arrived at KwaMadala I was left with three bullets, so that means I used 13.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no further questions, thank you, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr da Silva?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Magubane, I understand your evidence to be that you only saw one military vehicle when you left Boipatong and crossed the road on the way to KwaMadala, is that correct?

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MR DA SILVA: Can you estimate more or less what the time was when you saw this military vehicle?

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just hold on second, we just want to change the headphones.

MR LAX: Can you hear properly now?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I do.

MR DA SILVA: Is it possible to estimate the time more or less when you saw the military vehicle?

MR MAGUBANE: It was at night. I don't remember even the time when we returned from KwaMadala but it was at night. I saw that vehicle when we were leaving Boipatong, on our way to the hostel.

MR DA SILVA: Mr Mazibuko testified that he recalls vehicles approaching the group as the group was crossing the road and then the vehicle turned around and went away, is that your recollection of what happened?

MR MAGUBANE: I don't remember seeing a vehicle turning back. The vehicle that I saw was on its way from Vanderbijl Park in the direction of Sebokeng. I never saw it turning.

MR DA SILVA: So I understand your evidence to be that this vehicle was moving away from the group, is that correct, when you saw it?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I'm talking about the route from Vanderbijl Park that passes through the robots to Sebokeng, so that vehicle was facing the direction of Sebokeng. I didn't see whether it turned at the robot or not because at the robots there is a cross, so there is a way that leads to KwaMadala and the other one to Cape Gate. I did not recognise whether it turned there at that cross.

MR DA SILVA: Is your evidence then that when you saw the vehicle it was in the vicinity of the robot?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, it was not far from the robots. I can see where this car was, it was easy for you to recognise somebody between that car and the robots.

MR DA SILVA: I don't have any further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms?

CROSS-EXAMINATION MS TANZER: Mr Magubane, you say 

that you met Nosenga, or you know Mr Nosenga from the hostel when he was young, can you tell us approximately when, at what period did you meet Mr Nosenga?

MR MAGUBANE: After we got there, that is when I first met Nosenga. I used to take him just like a small boy.

MS TANZER: Well how old was he or how old did he appear to be to you?

MR MAGUBANE: I would say he was the same age of my younger brother who died in Boipatong. So I took him as a child because he was the same age as my younger brother.

MS TANZER: Were you part of the youth brigade before the attack on Boipatong?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I was a member of the youth brigade before the attack on Boipatong.

MS TANZER: Were you employed in any fashion before the attack on Boipatong?

MR MAGUBANE: No, I was unemployed.

MS TANZER: So in the period before the attack on Boipatong, would you just hang around the hostel? What would you be doing all day?

MR MAGUBANE: There was nowhere to go. What I used to do in the township, I could not longer do because I used to run the stockvels. So it was not possible for me to do that at KwaMadala because at KwaMadala you would not do things that you used to do in the township.

MS TANZER: Do you remember seeing or noticing Mr Nosenga's face before the Boipatong attack, who was also hanging around the hostel during that period.

MR MAGUBANE: I don't remember.

MS TANZER: So on your evidence the first time you really noticed him was after he was arrested for the Boipatong attack and was released on bail with you?

MR MAGUBANE: I say I saw him after I got back, when we were released from prison, then I met him at the hostel. That is after we got the bail, not that I was with him in prison.

MS TANZER: So after you got bail did you return to the KwaMadala hostel?

MR MAGUBANE: There was no place I could go.

MS TANZER: So when you befriended him when you were released on bail, did you discuss with him the attack on Boipatong?

MR MAGUBANE: I never talked to him, we never had any discussions.

MS TANZER: So what did you mean when you said you related to him like your brother, your younger brother?

CHAIRPERSON: Miss, he did not say that. As I recall his evidence he says Nosenga was of the same age as his younger brother who was killed in Boipatong.

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases. 

&#9;In your evidence-in-chief you said you did not know a police known as Peens then, you emphasised the word "then", did you later know Peens, was he known to you at any stage after the Boipatong attack?

MR MAGUBANE: I knew him after the death of Getisi. I knew him when Getisi was killed. That was the first time that I knew Peens.

MS TANZER: How did you come to know him?

MR MAGUBANE: Peens took me from my room at the hostel. He talked to me at the offices of the Murder and Robbery. 

&#9;He asked by about the things that were allegedly done by Getisi and his gangs. He promised that he will buy me a house, I should co-operate with him so that they should get Getisi. So I was talking to Peens and then thereafter I heard noise and that was the police, other police with Getisi. They were coming in pushing Getisi.

MS TANZER: Getisi means Victor Keswa, that is?

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

MS TANZER: Now Mr Nosenga actually has made a statement in terms of which statement he states that there was a relationship between Victor Keswa and certain members of the police. 

&#9;In fact he names a policemen with the surname of Peens, Shaka and Rooikop, but he specifically mentions in his statement that on the day of the attack he saw Peens coming to the hostels accompanied by his colleague Shaka. He even says that Peens came to the hostel in his own motor vehicle which he describes as a white Opel Monza.

&#9;He saw Peens hand money over to Mr Keswa. He doesn't know how much money was handed over but he says that later in that day Victor Keswa confirmed to him that he had received money from the said Peens. He even went on further to state that he often saw Peens meeting with Keswa and he was sure that he was getting some money from Peens. What are your comments in this regard?

MR MAGUBANE: What Nosenga is saying is, he is lying. I don't think Nosenga could actually say anything to Getisi. The way I knew Getisi he would not talk to a person like Nosenga. 

&#9;What I can say about Nosenga, he doesn't know Peens. Even if we can show him Peens' photographs, he cannot point. What's he's saying is pure lies.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is it that he cannot identify from a photograph?

MR MAGUBANE: I'm saying that Nosenga cannot point Peens because when I started knowing Nosenga he was still young. He has never talked to Peens, he's lying.

MS TANZER: If Nosenga can give a description of Peens, Shaka and Rooikop, would you believe him?

MR MAGUBANE: I won't agree, I will only agree when he says he knows them from the township.

MS TANZER: Where else would he know them if not from the hostel?

CHAIRPERSON: From the township, not from the hostel, Ma’am.

MS TANZER: You have disputed that he could even describe Peens.

MR MAGUBANE: I think so. Even when I was arrested I did not see Matanzima, I only learnt when I was in his office that he is Peens.

MS TANZER: If Matanzima can give evidence and describe Peens, would you believe what he is saying is correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Ma’am, let me ask you this. It is not for this witness to believe or disbelieve Mr Nosenga, that is a decision which this Committee has to make. I think the point has been made that insofar as this witness is concerned, he does not believe that Nosenga knows Peens and ...(indistinct). I think you have made that point.

MS TANZER: As the Chairman pleases.

&#9;I put it to you that like you, Matanzima Nosenga was unemployed, was also hanging around the hostel all day and as such was able to give the evidence, or to make such statements and was seeing the relationship that was occurring between Mr Keswa and various police officers.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that have been before the attack on Boipatong or after?

MS TANZER: That would be after the attack - that would be before the attack on Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear the question?

MR MAGUBANE: Can you please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Well what's being put to you is that before the attack on Boipatong, Mr Nosenga was already at KwaMadala hostel, like you he was not employed, he was hanging out in the hostel. That is why counsel is putting to you Nosenga is in a position to describe the events that he describes in his sworn statement. The upshot of this is that Nosenga was in the hostel even before the attack on Boipatong, what do you say to that?

MR MAGUBANE: He was not there, he was not at the hostel.

MS TANZER: You deny that Nosenga was staying in the hostel in the period prior to the Boipatong attack?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I disagree with that statement because I began to know him after the attack.

MS TANZER: Can you describe how you began to know him? How did he come to your attention after the attack, what made him noticeable to you?

MR MAGUBANE: What made me know Matanzima after the attack, that was a knew face because he was speaking Sesotho so it was unusual in the hostel. Because I heard him speak in Sesotho I realised that he's somebody from the township. That is when I started enquiring about him and they explained to me, they said that this is Matanzima.

MS TANZER: Well I put it to you that Matanzima Nosenga was at the hostel prior to the attack. In fact he joined the hostel during the 1991 period.

MR MAGUBANE: No, that is not true.

MS TANZER: Did you know every single member of the hostel?

MR MAGUBANE: Even though I did not know their names but we knew each other. The person I would not know is a person maybe who has just arrived from KwaZulu Natal but I will know him after some few days. But now I cannot give their names but at that time we knew each other well.

MS TANZER: Could you say you could identify every single person, at least by face, at the hostel prior to the attack or even after the attack?

MR MAGUBANE: All the people who were staying at KwaMadala knew each other. The only person who would not know is a person who has just arrived because if a person comes from Nongoma, the people who come from Msinga would not know that person but we will know him a few days after, or a person who comes from Sebokeng, they will give him a room. So I will not be able to know that person that day, but after some few days I will know the person.

MS TANZER: Well I put it to you that Mr Nosenga was at the hostel and that he knew about you.

MR MAGUBANE: I disagree with that.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga - I put this to you, in his statement verifies the meeting that took place two weeks before the attack on Boipatong. He says that he was at the meeting where there were lots of people, both men and women. 

&#9;Mr Nosenga said that at - this meeting was chaired by Themba Khosa and a member of the Murder and Robbery Squad in Flora Gardens, whom he calls Peens. He said further, at this meeting other speeches were made, including those made by Mtwana Zulu, Darkie, someone known as Darkie who is a leader of the IFP, Gatchene who he identifies as an Induna at the hostel, and a person he calls Danie, whom he says was a member of the South African Police Force in Everton. What are your comments?

CHAIRPERSON: What is the question?

MS TANZER: I am putting to him the version of the meeting, according to Mr Nosenga, on the 10th, who addressed the meeting.

MR MAGUBANE: Nosenga is lying. When he's mentioning Themba Khosa and that meeting that he is mentioning, he is lying, he's just lying. I can see that he is in trouble for what he did, that is why he is now trying to lie.

MS TANZER: What kind of trouble do you think he is in about what he did?

MR MAGUBANE: He's worried about those years that he is doing in prison. The reason why he is in prison is because he killed members of the IFP. He was a member of the ANC. He is not in prison because he killed members of the ANC, so now he is trying to use us to ask for amnesty.

MS TANZER: From where are you obtaining this information may I ask?

MR MAGUBANE: I know because I was with him in prison. He used to say that while we were in Vereeniging Prison.

MS TANZER: So you do know him from the prison?

MR MAGUBANE: I want you to understand when I explain to you, to know why he was imprisoned, I learnt of that in prison. He was explaining to me, he was telling me what happened. We were then in prison. I was in prison for my own things as well.

MS TANZER: Were you together at the prison, were you both prisoners at that time?

CHAIRPERSON: Ma’am, please. There are certain things which are pretty obvious. I mean, is there a suggestion that he was not prison at that point?

MS TANZER: Well as I heard I'm sure he said that he met when they were released on bail at the hostel and that they did not have any discussions in prison. That's how I understood it. Perhaps I'm incorrect, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: His evidence is that he first became aware of Mr Nosenga upon his release from prison. That is when he met him at the hostel. And the reason why he stood out is because he spoke Sotho which was unusual at the hostel. 

&#9;What he is saying about the prison is that Nosenga told him when he was in prison what he had done. Do you understand that?

MS TANZER: I do understand that, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you, Mr Magubane, at any stage be imprisoned together with Mr Nosenga?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I met him in prison.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR MAGUBANE: It was late '92. That is towards the end of 1993, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS TANZER: Did Mr Nosenga tell you what the charges were or what was he convicted of that he was in prison?

MR MAGUBANE: He was arrested for shoplifting or fighting in town. He also told me that he shot people in Zone 13 while he was a member of the IFP. After that now he will change his story and say he shot members of the IFP. He said to me he was suspected for the murders in Zone 13. He said it is alleged that he shot people together with Getisi, but he didn't tell me when he met Getisi.

CHAIRPERSON: When you met Nosenga in prison, that is towards the end of, in 1993, had you already met him at the hostel?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct.

MS TANZER: The record will show that Mr Nosenga was in fact arrested and convicted for activities in respect of which he attacked Zone 12 and Sebokeng ANC members and not IFP members.

MR MAGUBANE: That's correct.

MS TANZER: Can we come back to this meeting. Mr Nosenga made a statement as a witness to this meeting on the 10th of June, that certain speeches were given in which they were told to kill the dogs and he even said that Themba Khosa said that a certain insect should be killed, referring to the Boipatong residents, saying because a certain IFP member was killed in the location, what are you comments?

MR MAGUBANE: He's telling lies.

MS TANZER: He further stated that the Indunas agreed with the words of Themba Khosa.

MR MAGUBANE: He's lying.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence that Mr Peens was present at the meeting and he was speaking Afrikaans which was translated.

MR MAGUBANE: He's lying.

MS TANZER: He's further going to give evidence and state that Peens had agreed with the statements of Themba Khosa and he said that he would supply Caspirs near the Boipatong location, what are your comments?

MR MAGUBANE: He's lying.

MS TANZER: It was further mentioned at the meeting that they would supply Rooikop, a policeman known as Rooikop, with weapons who will give it to Themba Khosa who will bring it to the hostel. What are you comments there?

MR MAGUBANE: When you talk about Rooikop, I don't know him, I used to hear about him. When I was still involved in housebreaking I used to hear about Rooikop. He used to work together with Barnard. So this Rooikop he's referring to I don't know.

MS TANZER: But what is interesting is that as per the statement of Mr Nosenga, weapons were delivered on the day of the 17th of June to the hostel, is that correct?

MR MAGUBANE: Well I don't whether weapons were delivered on that day. What I can say is that we used to donate as the community of the hostel, and buy weapons.

&#9;If it happened, maybe it was something that was done by people who were in leadership. The only thing that I know is that we will be called to a meeting and those people who were working will donate an amount of about R15,00 and that money will be used to buy weapons. That is what I know. And the person they trusted when it comes to weapons, was Damarra Chonco. 

MS TANZER: But weapons were delivered on the day of the attack, is that correct?

MR MAGUBANE: I can agree because I saw Damarra's car but whether they were from the car or from the rooms, I don't know.

MS TANZER: Did you take - were you part of a meeting that took place on about the 14th of June, three days before the attack on Boipatong, when the decision to attack was taken?

MR MAGUBANE: No, I was not.

MS TANZER: Well Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence that there was a meeting on the 14th of June and at that meeting the decision to attack Boipatong was taken and it was decided that everyone should be killed, including women and children. 

&#9;He further said that at this meeting they were given instructions, the "they" being the people at the meeting, to bring back the weapons they were being supplied with, after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be at the meeting of the 14th?

MS TANZER: That would be.

CHAIRPERSON: So they were told at that meeting, to bring back the weapons that they had used in the attack, that they would use for the attack?

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga they were told they would be provided with weapons and when they returned, they must return the weapons, yes, back.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know anything about that?

MR MAGUBANE: There's nothing that I know about that.

MS TANZER: When the signal was sounded or the, on the evening of the 17th, did you go straight to the stadium?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that night I went to the stadium.

MS TANZER: And as you gave evidence, when you became aware that you were going to attack Boipatong, did you drink ndelezi?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, I drank ndelezi.

MS TANZER: How did the ndelezi make you feel?

MR MAGUBANE: There was never a change in me. Everything that I did I was aware of what I was doing, and I was aware of the place I was at.

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga states and he's going to give evidence to this Committee, that he arrived at the stadium, he drank ndelezi, it made him feel strong, and he was given an AK47 which he used on the attack in Boipatong.

MR MAGUBANE: He's lying when he says ndelezi makes him feel strong, he's lying. When he says that it made him strong and brave to kill the people of Boipatong, he's lying. The only thing that I can say is that when I drank ndelezi and you shoot at me, you will never shoot at me, you won't be able to shoot at me. That is what I know about ndelezi. It works. I have proved that it works.

MS TANZER: I didn't quite get that, can you explain that again? How does ndelezi work?

CHAIRPERSON: Well he says what he knows is that if he has drunk ndelezi, you can't shoot at him. Right?

MR MAGUBANE: Yes, that's correct. You'll never shoot at me after drinking ndelezi.

MS TANZER: The previous applicants we heard so far said they all drank ndelezi that evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, they said that, so what?

MS TANZER: Mr Nosenga is going to give evidence and states that after leaving the stadium with the weapons, you actually, you pass under a bridge in leaving the hostel and you arrived at a big open field before the township, where he saw about four to six Caspirs. He describes them as yellow in colour. What is your comment?

MR MAGUBANE: He's lying.

MS TANZER: According to Mr Nosenga, the policemen were wearing civilian clothes, he entered into a Caspir, together in the Caspir was Gatchene, Ruben, who I expect is you, Themba Kubeka, Lucky, Sipho, Makuka, Samo, Dondo and Mkhize. He further states that Themba Khosa did not take part in the attack, what are your comments?

MR MAGUBANE: He is lying.

MS TANZER: Well Mr Nosenga states that he saw the Caspirs moving through the streets as the hostel residents were attacking the people of Boipatong.

MR MAGUBANE: In all his stories I can say that he is trying to smear himself with fats of which he did not eat the meat. He is trying to ask for forgiveness and apologising to ANC by claiming that he did what he did for IFP. We did what we did because we knew that the police were not there. I know that it's me that did that, not the police, not what he is saying. What he is saying, he is lying.

MS TANZER: Well this is the evidence that Mr Nosenga is going to give and it is my duty to put his evidence to you and to get your response which we are hearing so unambiguously.

CHAIRPERSON: You see Ma’am, I understand your obligation but I think at some point you have to consider what is the value of going through the entire statement when the witness denies categorically, firstly that Nosenga was at the hostel at all and that he took part in the attack. I'm not saying don't put it but you know, once a witness says this man is lying, he was never there, putting everything that he said which he is going to deny in any event.

MS TANZER: I hear what you say, Mr Chairman, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But if there are matters that you feel very strongly about and ought to be put to the witness, by all means do so.

MS TANZER: Don't you think it's rather unusual that Mr Nosenga gives a vivid account of that night and besides the police presence there are similarities in the events that he describes and events that the other applicants describe on the night of the 17th?

CHAIRPERSON: And there are dissimilarities as well, fundamental differences.

MS TANZER: I'm referring to the similarities now, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: For you to put the complete - you've got to put the complete picture to the witness. 

&#9;You see what counsel is asking you is the following, and this now relates to everything that Nosenga is saying in his sworn statement: You say that he was never at the hostel prior to the attack and he was never part of the attack.

MR MAGUBANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, now what's being put to you is, in his affidavit he talks about some of the incidents which occurred at the hostel which everyone knows they did occur and he also talks about going to Boipatong and launching an attack there. If he was never at the hostel and was never part of the attack, how then would he have had information often concerning these events that he had described? 

&#9;Is that more or less what you want to put to this witness?

MS TANZER: I couldn't put it more succinctly myself, Mr Chairman.

MR MAGUBANE: I don't know where he heard about these things.

MS TANZER: My final question to you then is, did you attend a rally in Ulundi about a month after the Boipatong attack?

MR MAGUBANE: No, I have never attended a rally at Ulundi. I know Ulundi. I went to a rally in Ulundi when Mr Mandela wanted to meet Mr Buthelezi. That is when that date was postponed and then he said to us we should go and meet there, not at Ulundi because there were allegations and rumours that he'll be killed. That was the first time that I went to Ulundi.

MS TANZER: Thank you, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger? The time now is about twenty to six, would this be convenient to take an adjournment?

MR BERGER: It would, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Did we agree on half past eight? 

MR BERGER: I think we just have.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well, we will now adjourn and we'll start at half past eight tomorrow morning.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

