

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;07.08.96&#9;&#9;NAME: STEFANE MESHACK NTSEORENG

CASE:&#9;1046 - SEBOKENG

__________________________________________________________

DR BORAINE: Good morning Mr Ntsoereng and also to your 

daughter we are very glad that you have somebody from your 

own family who is with you and I hope that you are going to 

feel relaxed. It's not easy to sit where you are. You are 

the first today and that's even more difficult because the 

day is still young and it hasn't really started, but you 

will start by telling your own story. I want you to know 

that this is not a court of law. We are not here to 

interrogate you. We want to help you to tell your story. 

Now I'd like you to start with the 3rd of September 1984 

where there was a meeting at the administration offices to 

talk about electricity and then to take us through your 

story and I will try not to interrupt unless there is some 

question that I might want to ask. Will you start now 

please.

MR NTSOERENG: There was a meeting, the meeting was with 

regard to electricity. It was three weeks before the 3rd of 

September. The meeting was held at Zone 13. As the 

residents of Zone 13 we were actually their representatives 

and Zone 13 was behind with their payments and it was the 

first one to pay R8,50 when other locations were still 

paying a relatively low fee. When we got to the Council 

they explained to us that it was difficult for Zone 13 to 

obtain electricity if they did not increase the money that 

we had to pay and we were behind in arrears. The residents 

accepted this explanation. At this meeting it was myself, 

HRV/1046&#9;Mrs Musala/...

&#9;2&#9;

Mrs Musala as well as Mrs Dhlamini when we explained to the 

residents and the residents accepted the explanation. Can I 

go on?

DR BORAINE: Yes please do go on.

MR NTSOERENG: When the residents accepted this that was on 

the first day, it was on a Saturday, people from the 

administration offices in Sebokeng came with a fire 

extinguisher. When they brought this fire extinguisher it 

was a very surprising story, though I had already heard that 

there was going to be a rent boycott, now I wondered as to 

what was the fire extinguisher going to do. It so happened 

that on that day, from that day up to Monday it was the 

third day, but it was on a Monday at about 9 o'clock there 

was some violence within the community. After that violence 

had started I realised that there could be some problems 

arising because the shops were burnt. That is when I 

decided to move away from my place and I went to my 

brother's place. This went on and on up till the afternoon. 

At that point when I was listening to the radio I realised 

that some of my members had already died on that very same 

day, and we realised that the situation was quite volatile 

and I could not go out of the residence. Up till sunset 

even the following day then on a Wednesday it was between 5 

o'clock and 7 o'clock my house was burnt down. As my house 

was burning I really discovered that it was now quite bad 

but I slept there and friends who were with me at that day 

tried to help me get out of that place and they tried to 

help me as I am a widower. They took me from there and they 

took me to the Administration Board at Houtkop. I related 

this matter to the police and asked them to go and fetch my 

sons who were left there as well as their sister. When I 

HRV/1046&#9;got/...

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got there the policeman went to fetch my sons and they 

brought them to Houtkop. I will try to explain this a 

little bit further. As I'd already explained that we were 

sent a certain matter and there was a fire extinguisher my 

co-members they were not only fire extinguishers but they 

also got guns. 

&#9;I'll just explain it a little bit further so that it 

may be clear that we were a different organisation. There 

was a Mathlasedi organisation. There was also an LPP as 

well as Bafutsane. I was a member of Bafutsane 

organisation. This really surprised me to get that some 

others were armed and we were not armed. Probably they knew 

what was going to happen thereafter. We remained there. As 

we were still there we had to hold certain meetings to try 

and get some solutions and resolutions to the situation. 

&#9;As we were still furthering this matter there was 

another aspect that was troubling us within the community. 

That was the issue of the liquor outlets. We, as the people 

that we could be able to go on as a community and develop 

ourselves. I hope it is clear that at that time the liquor 

licences cost a lot of money to obtain because the bottle 

stores outside were not allowed to bring liquor into our 

location, and we realised that that was the only thing that 

could help us out of this predicament. As we were taking 

this matter further we realised that we could not see eye-

to-eye with the administration board because the 

administration board and the council was already there at 

that time. They told us that it was a matter for the 

administration board and they wanted to privatise the liquor 

boards. It is true that was the end of the matter, and 

these were separated in a surprising matter because most of 

HRV/1046&#9;them/...

&#9;4&#9;

them, that is the greater part went to the other people. 

That is another matter that troubled the community. We 

stayed as the situation went on. 

&#9;Now as we went to the meetings we kept on having those 

meetings and we started having altercations and we were not 

seeing eye-to-eye with the other organisations that I have 

already explained, and they started moving out of the 

organisations and crossing floors to other organisations. 

Some of them were being helped by the administration board. 

And it so happened that as time went on we discovered that 

as we were staying at DC Group we had to move away because 

we did not have houses anymore. And at the time when we 

decided to move we had to get another place to stay where we 

were going to build and we got the space at Zone 10. I can 

still point it now.

&#9;We discovered that we did not have anything, any 

possessions, because all our possessions had been burnt when 

our houses were burned, and it so happened that at that 

juncture I can say that most of the people who were there 

got money which could be to the amount of R5 000 in order to 

start our living. I, and Mr Musala was one of the people 

who did not get any money. It happened that at that 

particular time I saw another fire extinguisher and it is 

still there at my place. 

&#9;It happened that those houses were rebuilt and when 

these houses were built there had to be a division and I got 

a unit next to the hostel. All the other ones from the 

other opposing group had to go to other houses at Zone 10. 

They went to stay there and this place was surrounded by a 

fence. There were certain policemen who were guarding that 

place 24 hours of the day. I was given the third fire 

HRV/1046&#9;extinguisher/...

&#9;5&#9;

extinguisher. When I got out the fire extinguisher was 

there, there was no fence, nothing. And when I enquired 

about this issue I was told that the person who was issuing 

the R5 000 rent money was the Commissioner. When I went to 

see him at his offices he said I should wait for the State 

President's Fund, there is no money that I will ever get. 

It so happened that the next year if I am not mistaken, it 

was in June, the State President's Fund arrived. I wasn't 

living peacefully and I decided to go and rebuild my house 

in the township. It happened that thereafter the houses 

that belonged to the councillors, the houses that were in 

the townships were now fenced. Now at the hostel unit where 

I was staying there was nothing. I nearly forgot that my 

friend Mr Musala who was with me in this trouble decided to 

leave Vaal Triangle to go to Pretoria. 

&#9;It happened then that when they were busy fencing the 

houses the then town secretary Mr Scholtz he was involved in 

this scandal, he was taking money for himself and there was 

a court case and he was sentenced. If I remember well he 

also made an appeal, I don't know whether he succeeded with 

the appeal or not. 

&#9;This is the trouble that I have been through. All this 

started in 1984 until in 1987 because you will understand 

that I was between two trouble areas. In the township I was 

being chased by the people and on this other side I was also 

being chased away. There were bursaries afforded children, 

but my children couldn't get even a cent from those 

bursaries.

&#9;I want to say to you today my community harassed me 

because we negotiated with them at first before I could get 

into the council and the administration and the council 

HRV/1046&#9;itself/...

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itself was harassing me. Now you have to understand, a 

father who has got children, what kind of life was a man 

supposed to live in those years.

DR BORAINE: Thank you Mr Ntsoereng. You have described 

very clearly what it was like in that period 1984 and 

onwards. Now you mention that you were a councillor but 

your weren't a member of the LPP, you weren't a member of 

the ruling party?

MR NTSOERENG: I wasn't in the ruling party Sir, I was in 

the Bafutsane Party.

DR BORAINE: And that was an opposition party?

MR NTSOERENG: Yes it was the opposition party.

DR BORAINE: But the community were opposed to councillors 

whether they were in the ruling party or in the opposition 

party, is that right? Shall I repeat?

MR NTSOERENG: Yes you can repeat that Sir.

DR BORAINE: I was saying the community were they opposed 

to the ruling party and to the opposition party?

MR NTSOERENG: I didn't know of any opposition from the 

community because I've already explained that we had 

regions. Now in the region where I was the same region paid 

my fees to register because we were paying R250,00 as 

registration.

DR BORAINE: Could I ask you then why do you think your 

house was burnt down?

MR NTSOERENG: I think I have explained that on the 3rd 

people were killed and on the 4th, on the 5th my house was 

then burned, and I realised that the community was now angry 

and they decided to do the same thing even if they chose me.

DR BORAINE: So there was a very big argument about who 

should represent the community and who shouldn't. Now you 

HRV/1046&#9;mentioned/...

&#9;7&#9;

mentioned that some of the councillors, probably only from 

the ruling party were given R5 000.

MR NTSOERENG: Yes I have already explained that Sir.

DR BORAINE: But you weren't given that because you were 

not the ruling party?

MR NTSOERENG: The people who did not receive the money was 

myself and Mr Musala, we were the leaders of the other two 

organisations. 

DR BORAINE: Now you mentioned that the State President 

Fund in 1985 paid out some of the councillors for the loss 

of their houses, were you paid as well?

MR NTSOERENG: The State President's Fund paid everybody 

because a cheque was directed to a specific person. That is 

the money that I have already explained that I used it to 

rebuild my house, that was then destroyed again.

DR BORAINE: How much was that?

MR NTSOERENG: It was R16 000. That is why I managed to 

rebuild my house. Sir I will explain that it was my house 

that I built myself, it wasn't the Municipal house.

DR BORAINE: But then you mentioned very briefly that your 

house was destroyed again in about 1989 or 1990, now why was 

that?

MR NTSOERENG: Sir, I won't tell you, I don't know the 

reasons because I was not a councillor anymore, but as I was 

not feeling well I was not here in the Vaal Triangle. There 

were people staying in my house.

DR BORAINE: Now the house that you are staying in now, is 

that another house that you had to build or rent?

MR NTSOERENG: I had to go to the Unit, I went back to the 

Unit that I was given before.

DR BORAINE: And are you employed or unemployed at the 

HRV/1046&#9;moment?/...

&#9;8&#9;

moment?

MR NTSOERENG: I am unemployed Sir. I am not working at 

this present moment. I am just selling oranges and fruits.

DR BORAINE: Do any of your family live with you?

MR NTSOERENG: Yes Sir, this is my daughter, one of them.

DR BORAINE: You live together?

MR NTSOERENG: Yes Sir.

DR BORAINE: Do you receive any kind of pension at all?

MR NTSOERENG: I am not yet at the right age to get a 

pension. I have a request Sir.

DR BORAINE: Please go ahead.

MR NTSOERENG: My request is that the files of the 

administration board have to be taken out and our council 

files have to be taken out as well so as to get the clear 

message that we are in this situation because of the 

administration board. You will realise that the money that 

the people were paying were only helping the south part of 

the Free State, with the money from the Vaal area. 

Wittsieshoek area was built through the monies paid by the 

people of this community.

DR BORAINE: We have noted your request. Is there anything 

else that you want to say to the Commission?

MR NTSOERENG: I don't have so many things to say Sir. 

That was the request. Now my other request is I am in this 

kind of situation what can the Commission offer me so that I 

can be accepted by the community?

DR BORAINE: I think that one of the good and the positive 

things about these hearings is that it gives people an 

opportunity to tell their story and explain why they were 

doing one thing and not another, and hopefully that as one 

tells one's story so the community will begin to forgive and 

HRV/1046&#9;to/...

&#9;9&#9;

to forget and to allow people to come back and to live 

normal lives. But that of course is up to you and the 

community, and certainly it would be a real request from the 

Commission that people start healing one another and 

receiving one another because those times in the eighties 

were times of war and we must now make peace. Thank you 

very much for coming. I am going to hand back to the 

Chairperson in case anyone else wants to ask you questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Boraine. 

MRS SEROKE: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to ask you to briefly 

explain to us why were the people boycotting rents?

MR NTSOERENG: As I have already explained people boycotted 

the rent because of many reasons. You will understand that 

in the year that we were placed in power it was the same 

year of the Tricameral Parliament and the Black community 

was not happy at all about that Tricameral Parliament, that 

was the first reason.

&#9;The second reason I can say the privatisation of liquor 

outlets was another issue that dissatisfied the community.

&#9;The third thing we have to remember that when Sebokeng 

was formed Sebokeng was really expensive. I still remember 

people were paying R8,50 rents and Sharpeville was only 

paying R3,50 a month, and Sharpeville was using the bucket 

system at that time. They didn't have a sewerage system. 

Now it so happened that when the townships were put together 

people in Sebokeng they discovered that Sharpeville was 

actually developed through their expense and they were not 

satisfied. And I have to say, we have to remember that even 

before our council came to power there was a community 

council and this council increased the rents two or three 

times a year, and they said after a few months we will add 

HRV/1046&#9;a/...

&#9;10&#9;

a certain amount and after so many months we will add 

another amount and people were not satisfied at all. I 

think those are the reasons why the people were not 

satisfied.

MS SEROKE: Now as a member of Bafutsane were you fighting 

for such things?

MR NTSOERENG: Remember I was from Zone 13 which was the 

first zone with no electricity. It suffered a lot. We must 

remember the administration board also started in Zone 13, 

they were staying in those houses. Now the development of 

Sebokeng comes from the area called Zone 13. That was the 

area paying the highest rents. All the zones are coming 

from this other zone. That is why I emphasise that 

investigations should be made as to what happened to the 

monies, as to what happened to the money because we were 

made to understand that Sharpeville was helped actually by 

the monies from Sebokeng. We have to understand how the 

(...indistinct) developed through our monies.

MS SEROKE: I thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Dr Randera has a few questions.

DR RANDERA: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to understand that 

period a little better, what were you doing before you 

became a councillor?

MR NTSOERENG: I was a salesman.

DR RANDERA: And you said earlier on when you were speaking 

to Dr Boraine you said "my community harassed me but we 

asked for their permission before we became councillors", 

can you just tell us a little more what you mean by that?

MR NTSOERENG: When I say the community harassed me, my 

house was burnt and I had to leave the township, and that is 

the same community that trusted me at that time. 

HRV/1046&#9;DR RANDERA/...

&#9;11&#9;

DR RANDERA: I know it's a long time ago, can you please 

just tell us there were, I understand there were some 

elections for these local councils how many people actually 

voted for those councils, what percentage of the population 

in your opinion?

MR NTSOERENG: I can't remember the percentages but what I 

can remember is the fact that in our region we had a LPP 

member and I had 1,400 votes and he only had 600 votes. I 

am talking about the region here, not about the Vaal 

Triangle in general.

DR RANDERA: I just want to come back to where you started 

your statement, I mean maybe the dates are right, maybe the 

dates are wrong, you say on the 3rd of September you had a 

meeting in Zone 13 with, or three weeks, sorry my apologies, 

three weeks prior to the 3rd of September you had a meeting 

with the people of Zone 13 ...(intervention)

MR NTSOERENG: That's correct.

DR RANDERA: It sounded like it was quite a reasonable 

meeting and then three weeks later you say on the 3rd of 

September I heard over the radio that some of our 

councillors have been killed.

MR NTSOERENG: Yes.

DR RANDERA: What happened in this period? On the one side 

you seem to have had quite a reasonable discussion with the 

people of Zone 13 and three weeks later it seemed like the 

township was burning, what happened inbetween? Who was 

responsible? Who were the other organisations that were 

working in the area?

MR NTSOERENG: Which area are you referring to Sir?

DR RANDERA: I am talking about your area, Sebokeng.

MR NTSOERENG: I want to point out that there were many 

HRV/1046&#9;organisations/...

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organisations. UDF was present and they also held their 

meetings and we used to hold our meetings as well. Now the 

meeting we held three weeks before we were about to report 

to the community that we will not meet their demands if they 

don't agree to the fact that the rent has to be increased by 

R5,00. In that same meeting, it was a great meeting, a big 

meeting because we had the drum majorette, there was a 

beautiful day, we were explaining to the community this 

issue of increment.

DR RANDERA: Mr Ntsoereng I just want to come back to this 

issuing of guns to the councillors, who gave out the guns? 

Was it the administration or the police who gave out the 

guns and were people trained to use those guns?

MR NTSOERENG: I want to talk about the training, I don't 

know whether they were trained to use the guns, but what I 

can explain is that those guns were the adminstration bought 

guns. That is the fact I know.

DR RANDERA: My last question Mr Ntsoereng. You say in 

your statement,

&#9;&#9;"These people who destroyed my house they also 

destroyed me morally. I put the blame to the 

regime, that is apartheid".

Now I want you please to just tell us what you mean by that, 

but also in doing so can you please tell us in your memory 

how many councillors actually lost their lives during this 

period?

MR NTSOERENG: Nobody in those years wanted oppression. 

Myself as a councillor I didn't like oppression but the 

regime put us in trouble. I have already explained that 

investigations should be conducted because the Black people 

were used by the Government. The community of the Vaal 

HRV/1046&#9;Triangle/...

&#9;13&#9;

Triangle was living on conditions of bridging finance. They 

used to meet their target and they could also meet their 

target at Wittsieshoek. I have already indicated that the 

irrigation system in that area was supported through the 

funds of our region. And the community lost temper and 

patience.&#9;That is why I say the regime is responsible. I 

know the deceased Mr Kuzwayo Dhlamini who was killed. Mr 

Siza Mucheane. Jacob Chakane and two months thereafter Zipo 

Dhlamini was killed in Everton.

DR RANDERA: So that is four people that you know who were 

killed during that time who were councillors.

MR NTSOERENG: But the people who died in that violent era 

were many, not only the councillors, but many people died.

DR RANDERA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntsoereng on behalf of the TRC I would 

like to thank you so much that you came. Thank you that you 

brought your daughter with you today and introduced her to 

us. We really want to say to you that the Truth Commission 

has many tasks. One of the tasks is to try and find out the 

truth of what's happened in South Africa and the information 

you gave us will help us piece together the true story of 

everything that happened in the Vaal Triangle in those 

difficult years. Thank you for helping us with that. And 

we also want to say to you that we do have sympathy with 

you, with the dilemma you were in. You told us about the 

difficulty of being a councillor in those years, as you said 

you were chased by your own people, on the other hand you 

were harassed by the regime, by the administration and we 

know that the councillors also suffered and that their 

families suffered with them. Thank you that you told us 

that and we do hope that partly because of your story today 

HRV/1046&#9;that/...

&#9;14&#9;

that you and your family and many other councillors and 

their families will be well accepted back into the 

community. And as for your request that there's 

investigation needed about the monies, the way the monies 

were used we will take that along and we'll present your 

request to the TRC. But thank you for coming, and thank you 

for bringing your daughter. You may leave and you may take 

your place again in the audience.

&#9;----------------------

 

