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NAME:&#9;&#9;M C NQINANA
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 NAME:&#9;&#9;M C NQINANA

APPLICATION NO: AM7999/97

DATE:&#9;&#9;18TH JUNE 1999

DAY:&#9;&#9;&#9;4

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CHAIRPERSON: For the record it is Friday 18th June 1999. We are continuing with the amnesty applications of N R Nkwenkwe and sixteen others. Yes Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I have Mr Nqinana ready to take the oath. His application appears at pages 58 to 64 Mr Chairman.

M C NQINANA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Nqinana, you are a member of the South African Police Services. What rank are you holding?

MR NQINANA: I'm an inspector.

MR OBOSE: What rank were you holding during March 1994?

MR NQINANA: I was a Sergeant.

MR OBOSE: Where were you stationed in March 1994?

MR NQINANA: At Bisho Training Centre.

MR OBOSE: Is that what is also known as Bisho Police College?

MR NQINANA: Correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you attend a meeting which was held at the Bisho Police College Hall on the 22nd March 1994?

MR NQINANA: I was invited when the meeting was in process.

MR OBOSE: What do you mean invited, how did this reach you that there's a meeting?

MR NQINANA: We were called from our offices by the people who had attended the meeting. As I was a training officer and there were people who came from the hall to call us to tell us to go to the hall.

MR OBOSE: Did they tell you why you were needed in the hall?

MR NQINANA: They said Commissioner Nqoya was going to address us at the hall and he wanted all the police, Ciskeian Police. I am not sure as to what time was it but I think it was before or after 10 because it was in the morning, it was not in the afternoon.

MR OBOSE: Did you then go to the meeting?

MR NQINANA: Yes.

MR OBOSE: What did you find happening at that stage of the meeting?

MR NQINANA: We were told at the meeting that Commissioner Nqoya was there and then he said all the Ciskeian Police should be called and then he would be coming back to address them. All the people who had problems or grievances should forward those to him. I remember Inspector Mfene.

MR OBOSE: Okay. So what then happened, were any issues raised in the interim while you were waiting for Commissioner Ngoya?

MR NQINANA: Yes they were expecting input from the members therefore people were confused, they wanted to know what was going to happen, what was to be the future of the Ciskeian Police. We had to write those down so that Commissioner Nqoya on coming back he would address the police on those issues.

MR OBOSE: Now when you got there in the morning were officers there?

MR NQINANA: Yes they were present and the others came with us because there were others who were called from their offices and Colonel Vusi from logistics and Brigadier Bongusa arrived with us at the hall.

MR OBOSE: So the impression you got was that everybody who was a policeman at Bisho Police College was called to the hall?

MR NQINANA: Yes, including the students.

MR OBOSE: Right just go on. Did you remain in the hall throughout the day?

MR NQINANA: No I was in and out of the hall, I was not sitting there at the hall all the time.

MR OBOSE: Why would you leave the hall on those occasions that you did?

MR NQINANA: Most of the time we were being asked, we were working at the college and this thing was taking place at the college and sometimes we would go, we would be sent to go fetch water and give it to people and the other people who were hungry we had to go and get the food for those people so I was not in the hall most of the time, I was just in and out of the hall because we were the people who were used to do some of the things outside the hall.

MR OBOSE: Now as the day progressed, how did the mood of the meeting become?

MR NQINANA: The mood changed more specially when it was realised that the Commissioner was not coming back, the people panicked and when I came back I heard people saying that "Viva Cosatu" slogans like that, "Viva Popcru" and so on, so the mood had changed because the people were in panic as they were waiting for the Commissioner. That is what I saw.

MR OBOSE: Was there any singing going on?

MR NQINANA: Yes they were singing freedom songs.

MR OBOSE: Were any slogans shouted?

MR NQINANA: Yes they were saying down with Gqozo and the other slogans.

MR OBOSE: Did it seem like that the policemen who were in the hall were of this opinion or it was only a certain group that was singing or shouting slogans?

MR NQINANA: All the policemen in the hall were doing one thing, there was no specific group.

MR OBOSE: Did you yourself associate yourself with what was going on?

MR NQINANA: Yes that is correct, I also became part of what was happening.

MR OBOSE: You also sang and chanted slogans?

MR NQINANA: I couldn't shout the slogans because I would come in and join in the singing and I would go out again. I didn't go to the front and shout the slogans.

MR OBOSE: Okay. Now did at some stage soldiers join the police at the meeting?

MR NQINANA: Yes they arrived late, I cannot remember the time and I cannot say how many were there but they were driving a car but there was only one who went up to the podium. There's a tent that was used. They told us, they used to refer to us at Makaya, they said "Makaya, do not worry, we are with you" meaning that they were with us in this attempt of overthrowing Gqozo. They were telling us that they were with us in this whole action therefore we shouldn't worry about anything, they would give us a back up.

MR OBOSE: Now were officers in the main brought to the meeting?

MR NQINANA: Yes they were brought to the meeting as a result of the instruction that came at the meeting.

MR OBOSE: Could you establish why they were brought or what reason was given for them to be brought?

MR NQINANA: I was not at the meeting all the time therefore I couldn't get everything that was said. The reason for the officers to come is because they were regarded as the people who were supporting Gqozo's regime. There was a feeling that they should also be there in that meeting.

MR OBOSE: Right, now when they got to the meeting were they asked questions, were they interrogated or the singing went on and they were ignored?

MR NQINANA: Yes they were being questioned when they arrived. Some of them I did not see everything in that process because as I was saying I was not always in the hall, I would come and see a person perhaps asking a direct question to a specific person. I cannot even say what kind of questions were being asked.

MR OBOSE: Did you get the news that Gqozo had stepped down at any stage that evening?

MR NQINANA: Yes I did get that information.

MR OBOSE: How?

MR NQINANA: It was late. As they were making announcements there it was also mentioned that Gqozo had stepped down, he had surrendered. I don't know who had brought that kind of information but we got that information from the people who were speaking there, different people were addressing the meeting, I heard such words being uttered.

MR OBOSE: And how did the mood become in the hall after that announcement had been made?

MR NQINANA: People were excited. No one was assaulting anyone, no one was hurting anyone but people were just excited.

MR OBOSE: Is it correct that at some stage police armed themselves with R5's and R1 rifles?

MR NQINANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Do you recall the circumstances surrounding this?

MR NQINANA: It was realised that SAP was to go and take over the police college or to try to prevent their action and most of the police did not have firearms because for their own safety they had to be armed and do some guard duties around the premises. That is how they armed themselves.

MR OBOSE: Did you fetch any officer?

MR NQINANA: Yes, it was Captain Sawuti.

MR OBOSE: Why was he fetched?

MR NQINANA: I heard a car from the police college, Bisho Police College, we heard our police radios, it was announced through the radios that anyone who is in possession of a car should go and fetch Captain Sawuti as he was wanted in the hall concerning what was happening there but at that time I was not in the hall. Because I was in possession of a car I had to go and fetch him and bring him to the hall and I did so.

MR OBOSE: Or you were not in the hall when this announcement was made?

MR NQINANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you ill treat him or anyone in your company?

MR NQINANA: I did not even utter a word to him. There were two of us in the car, it was Inspector Tyali Sergeon Moleshe and myself. The person who talked to him and knocked at his house was Moleshe. We did not even talk to him from his place to the hall. The only person who was talking to him was Inspector Moleshe all the way, I was just driving the car.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Obose. Mr Nompozolo, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes thank you Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Nqinana, when the soldiers arrived there and said that they were with you on your mission of overthrowing Gqozo, would I be correct to say actually when the soldiers arrived there, they were having the concerns which the police were also having, (i) their future in South Africa, in the new South Africa, (ii) their pension monies. Was it not the case?

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, it looks like there is a problem with the headphones of the applicant.

MR NQINANA: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

MR NOMPOZOLO: You have said that when the soldiers arrived there they said they were with you homeboys in the overthrowing of Brigadier Gqozo. Now I'm putting a proposition to you that is it not the case that the soldiers were with you because they were also concerned about their future in the new South Africa and also about the pension monies which was also the concern of the police?

MR NQINANA: I do not think that they were referring to that. The situation was already political in the hall, I do not think that they were referring to those problems like pension. According to the mood in the hall, according to my perception I think they wanted to overthrow Gqozo or to get Gqozo down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Okay, let's get it differently now. There in the hall, was there any talk about the overthrowing of Gqozo, that people here were gathered to overthrow Brigadier Gqozo. Was there talk like that?

MR NQINANA: At the time I was in the hall there was such talks like "down with Gqozo" or "away with Gqozo". I am certain that the people were aware that Gqozo should step down on that particular day. They were even quoting the ANC members. Things were that at those times you couldn't mention Gqozo's name and the ANC but according to what was happening there it was a clear message that Gqozo should step down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But there was no talk about go and plan to make Gqozo to resign or to step down, is that correct?

MR NQINANA: I cannot say there was no such because I was not present in the hall, I had missed out so many things that were happening there, I would only hear those that were happening during my presence. What made me to say that the people who were saying that Gqozo should go down is because of the hall and the utterances that were made at the hall but I was also far away from the planning. I cannot say that there was no plan, specific plan to say Gqozo should step down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Actually, am I correct to say every time you went in you would find people asking about their pensions, sports club money, orphan's funds and all that, is that correct?

MR NQINANA: That was happening, that happened at the beginning when the people were still collecting the other people. In the afternoon such subjects, there was nothing said about that, it was when they were still waiting for Nqoya but after they started panicking they started singing. Now there was nothing, nothing was mentioned of pension funds and other things.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Other than chanting slogans "down with Gqozo, down with Makwethu, down with so and so", other than that, there was no talk that Gqozo should resign, is that correct?

MR NQINANA: There would be such talks. Perhaps if they were shouting the slogans they would say "down with Gqozo", there were such utterances. There were utterances such as they are going to bring Gqozo down.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And on the freedom songs, that has always been the theme that we are going to bring Gqozo down, down with Gqozo, viva ANC, viva PAC, viva whoever are people in favour of at that particular moment, is that not the case? Down with De Klerk? Is that not the case?

MR NQINANA: Will you please repeat your question because I do not understand, I have a problem with my headphones.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The question is, the theme of the freedom songs has always been "down with Gqozo, down with De Klerk, down with Matanzima, down with whoever they are not in favour of and viva ANC, viva PAC, viva COSATU, viva Popcru, you name them. Is that not the case with the freedom songs? The theme is always the same?

MR NQINANA: I am not going to be able to answer this question properly, I am not very much involved in politics. I am not going to say this is right and that is wrong but I am telling you about what was happening there I am not saying this was what was supposed to happen and something else, I know nothing about politics.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes and would I be correct to say the freedom songs were sung because those people in the hall were bored for waiting for Nqoya who was not coming and to occupy their minds they were singing church songs, they were singing freedom songs, is that not the case?

MR NQINANA: There were no church songs. At least I know the difference between a freedom song and a church song.

MR NOMPOZOLO: You see, according to one of the people who testified - Mr Chairman, I'm not sure whether it was Nkwenkwe or Mfene, but one of the two?

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, we can find out if it's very important but somebody said there were some church songs sung, ja.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And in fact he says his participation also was on singing church songs because he likes them. What are you saying to that?

MR NQINANA: As I've said earlier on I was not there all the time. Perhaps such church songs were sung but at the time I was there, there were no church songs.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, lastly on this topic am I correct to say not one person, not one person ever said "today we are going, today our plan is to topple Gqozo and to hand over Ciskei to South Africa", that there was no such talk by any person other than the chanting of slogans and the freedom songs?

MR NQINANA: Yes it was done but not formally, perhaps a person would go and speak at the microphone, there was nothing that was formal, that the result of the discussion. That was what I saw when I was in there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The officers were actually kept against their will in the hall therefore your proposition that everybody was on the same mood is not correct, am I correct in saying that?

MR NQINANA: If you did specify from the beginning I could have explained that yes the officers were not in the same mood for the fact they had to be fetched to be there you did not make a difference. Yes they were forced to be there, they were taken from the places of residence to the home.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And when the officers were there they were never asked about their loyalty to Gqozo or whatever of that nature, all they were asked about were the monies which it was alleged that they have misappropriated, is that correct?

MR NQINANA: At the time of questioning during my presence they were being asked about the monies.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And an officer would be first after his name has been raised by a member of the police force that "so and so I know he has done a,b,c, go and fetch him" and that will be when that officer will be fetched?

MR NQINANA: I am not going to say yes because in my case I was called through the police radio that a person with a car should go and fetch Mr Sawuti and I don't know how the procedure was as to how to go and get a person.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you did not know, that is you people who were in the police college, you did not know who were the officers who were in support of Brigadier Gqozo and those who were in support of other organisations?

MR NQINANA: Are you taking about this particular day or are you talking about just before this incident because I was working in the college?

MR NOMPOZOLO: On that particular day you did not know who were the supporters of Brigadier Gqozo or the supporters of other organisations?

MR NQINANA: According to my own perception all the officers who were on Gqozo's side, that is my opinion and even in the hall there was a general feeling that Gqozo had a full support of the officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Why are you saying that, Sir?

MR NQINANA: My reasons are like this, our working conditions, the way we were working under the Ciskeian Government were causing me to make that conclusion.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Well what is it, just tell us, what pointed that all the officers were in support of Gqozo?

MR NQINANA: The emphasis of officers towards the NCOs and trying to the oppress the individuals. The way that we were supposed to perform our duties towards the Africans, that showed that the officers had a full support - that Gqozo was enjoying a full support from the officers.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes, what was it that you were told to do to the Africans which proved that the officers were in support of Gqozo, I'm still not clear?

MR NQINANA: We were performing a lot of duties, I'm not sure whether I'll be able to disclose all those duties here. We were performing a lot of duties, I'm not sure if they are relevant to this.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Ja, can you tell us one duty, because all we want to know how do you associate the officers to be in support of Brigadier Gqozo?

MR NQINANA: We were performing duties in places like Mdabathemba where we had to prevent ANC activities. There is a so called briefing, sometimes we would find that some of the things are not proportionate, it's things that were not right to be done on human beings. We would be instructed not to touch a certain group of people but to do something else to a certain group of people. Sometimes we were told to focus on ANC and leave out people like UDM. ADM, I beg your pardon.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now would I be correct to say that what would be done by a certain unit, not by all the officers, other officers for instance were with logistics, others with finance, others with transport, others - so it won't be all the officers who were given those instructions?

MR NQINANA: My perception, if I differ with opinion from you even the behaviour would automatically differ, if I don't associate myself with a certain group of people, even the behaviour will have to change therefore the behaviour of officers was more or less the same. That is why I'm saying that they were supporting Gqozo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would it be fair then Mr Nqinana, to level the same accusation against the warrant officers of the time then who were actually giving instructions to their juniors to say that even the warrant officers for that matter because they were giving instructions to their juniors to perform duties, to say that those warrant officers were supporting Gqozo?

MR NQINANA: There was no emphasis on the side of the warrant officers, that was only coming from the officers according to my perception.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Inspector, I am instructed that you took, that is you as a group, you with Toto and Tyali and others, you took Captain Sawuti against his will from his house?

MR NQINANA: It was myself, Tele Moleshe when we arrived at his house, we approached the house. Moleshe knocked at the house, a young boy came and he told him to go and call Mr Sawuti and then he said he was dressing up, he was coming. Then he later came to us and then he enquired about what was wrong and Moleshe told him that we were from the police hall, there is a meeting and we were requesting him to go to the hall. He went back to the house to put on his clothes. When he came back Moleshe told him that it is cold in the hall, he should go back and dress warmly because it was cold and then he went back and put something on and then he came back. Just before he could get into the car Moleshe borrowed his firearm and then we took him, we got into the car with him and then we went to the hall.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now if the motive of the meeting was to oust Brigadier Gqozo, why were the officers not informed of that when they were in the hall?

MR NQINANA: I am not going to say they were told or not, perhaps they were told during my absence and I don't even know why they were not told because I was not the co-ordinator there, perhaps they were told or they were not told, I do not know.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you explain if a group of people is in the hall, how is it possible that if something is discussed amongst them that other people would be aware that the peoples is this and others are not aware?

MR NQINANA: ...(indistinct)

MR NOMPOZOLO: Can you explain how does it happen that if the people are in one hall and in that hall it is agreed that the purpose is to do a,b,c, how does it happen that other people are not aware of that whereas they're in the same hall?

MR NQINANA: I did not say that people were not aware, I do not understand your question. If the people are discussing, I did not say the other people were not aware of what was happening.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Let me explain it to you. Throughout the evidence from Nkwenkwe, from Tyali, from Mfene, throughout the evidence there is not even one person who suggested that the officers were aware that the peoples of the meeting changed to be that of overthrowing of Brigadier Gqozo. The people who are saying that the meeting changed are those who are applying for amnesty. Now my question is, if it had happened as you people are saying that the meeting was changed to be a meeting of overthrowing Brigadier Gqozo, how is it possible that other people who were in the hall were not aware or were not made aware of that whereas this was talked about on the mike?

MR NQINANA: Are you talking about the officers or?

MR NOMPOZOLO: The officers.

MR NQINANA: The officers did not arrive all at once. When these freedom songs started there were only a few officers and then it became hot, perhaps it is one of the reasons why they were not aware that the situation had changed but the people who were on the ground were influenced by the utterances and by the way the people were singing and the situation changed and it became more political. Most of the officers arrived late, that is why they could not see it that way but the NCOs who were there when the meeting started, I am sure that they were aware that there was a change.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Do you know of any reason why if the peoples was to overthrow Brigadier Gqozo, why was that not discussed by them by the entire meeting? Why was it done in the form of slogans?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I do not know the reason because when this all started the meeting was about the election and there was a shift and we were told that Commissioner Nqoya wanted to see us and it later changed again to be something else about overthrowing Gqozo. There are so many stages, at first it was education and election and it changed, I do not know the reason why there was always a shift.

MR NOMPOZOLO: But do you agree with me that the main thing which happened after General Nqoya did not come back, the main thing that happened was the chanting of slogans, is that correct? 

MR NQINANA: I am not going to say yes, I think that co-ordinators can explain something else because I was not always in the hall, the people would talk and matters would arise, I cannot just say that they were only chanting slogans and the freedom songs.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Actually the evidence which has been led thus far is pointing to that, that the main thing which was happening there was chanting of slogans and singing of freedom songs and questioning of officers about the misappropriation of funds and you've got nothing more to add to that, not so?

MR NQINANA: ...(indistinct)

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it correct that if people want to overthrow a Head of State they would have an action to do that, they won't sit in the hall and chant slogans and sing freedom songs? They will do little bit more than that like amongst other things (i) handing a petition over to that person, (ii) going there to overthrow that person forcefully. Is that not the case?

MR NQINANA: That was once mentioned that Gqozo should be fetched there, I am not sure who are the people who went to Gqozo's place to fetch him, I did not hear any planning but I just heard people saying that I know that some people went to fetch Gqozo. I am not sure who are the people who were sent there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: The purpose for fetching Gqozo was for Gqozo to come to the meeting to explain where were the monies, where were the pension monies and what plans were there for the police in the new South Africa. He was not going to be fetched to resign there in front of the police, not so?

MR NQINANA: I don't think that was the case because Gqozo knew nothing about our monies, it's only the commissioner who could respond because I knew nothing about that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: In fact the commissioner went to see Brigadier Gqozo about the pensions of the police, that is the evidence that has been led thus far?

MR NQINANA: I was not aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, who gave that evidence?

MR NOMPOZOLO: It was Mfene, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mfene say that the Commissioner Nqoya was going to discuss the money with Gqozo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes the pensions, when he left in the morning round about 10 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: He left to go and discuss the pension with Gqozo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: With Brigadier Gqozo, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes well perhaps I don't have a clear recollection of that but we'll look at the evidence. You can proceed for the moment.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you.

&#9;Now the police wanted to see Brigadier Gqozo because they wanted their pensions. What are you saying to that?

MR NQINANA: I do not have any knowledge about that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And is it correct that because Ngoya was not coming back people were angry and they were no longer much interested in him now, they were interested in Gqozo coming and explain what Ngoya has failed to explain to them?

MR NQINANA: I do not think so, he couldn't have been fetched if that was the case but Ngoya had to be fetched at his home, I'm not sure about that.

MR NOMPOZOLO: And you are aware that Ngoya left, he left to meet Brigadier Gqozo?

MR NQINANA: I was not present when he left, I don't even know the reason for his leaving but all I knew was that we had to gather at the hall to wait for him to address us.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Now why were other officers together, why were other officers, why were they amongst the warrant officers like Mr Papel, he was a commissioned officer yet he was amongst the warrant officers. Is it because he did not misappropriate any funds?

MR NQINANA: I do not have any knowledge about that, I never saw him, perhaps he was there or not or he wasn't.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would it then be fair to say to you it would seem as if you were not aware of what was happening in the meeting? You were not aware that the purpose of the meeting was to overthrow Brigadier Gqozo?

MR NQINANA: I don't think that is fair because the situation prevailing at the time could tell what was happening, it's not fair to say I did not know what was happening there.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Would it be fair to say chanting of slogans and singing of freedom songs does not overthrow anybody?

MR NQINANA: If that does not say anything about overthrowing, what is the cause of Gqozo's removal because my perception I think what he did there contributed to Gqozo surrendering.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Have you ever attended a public gathering where slogans are chanted and freedom songs are sung?

MR NQINANA: No.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Well I think then that explains that you are not aware of the fact that chanting of slogans and singing of freedom songs does not overthrow anybody, not so?

MR NQINANA: As I said I do not know that but I believe that the activities in that meeting made to Gqozo's resigning because even the people who were his pillars were no longer behind him at the time.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Nompozolo. Ms Collett have you got any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapomo, have you got any questions?

MR MAPOMO: No questions Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Has the panel got any questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: None thank you Honourable Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

&#9;Mr Nqinana, you are excused, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NAME: &#9;&#9;N S TOTO

APPLICATION NO: AM8000/97

______________________________________________________

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, who is next Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman, Mr Toto.

CHAIRPERSON: Say again?

MR OBOSE: Mr Toto, Mr Chairman. The application pages 51 to 57.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

N S TOTO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Thank you your Lordship.

&#9;What rank are you holding in the South African Police Services?

MR TOTO: I'm an inspector now.

MR OBOSE: In 1994 in March what rank were you holding?

MR TOTO: I was a ...(indistinct) sergeant.

MR OBOSE: Were you also attached to the Bisho Police College?

MR TOTO: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: There is a structure there, ...(indistinct)?

MR TOTO: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Did you attend the meeting at Bisho College Hall that morning?

MR TOTO: Yes I used to go and be in that meeting.

MR OBOSE: What was going on there and do you know also why there was such a meeting?

MR TOTO: I knew because the people were going to address the meeting were from the training centre in the morning. It was in connection with the elections.

MR OBOSE: Who were these?

MR TOTO: If I can still remember well it was the late Inspector Says and Captain Valdane.

MR OBOSE: Those were attached to the police college?

MR TOTO: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: Do you know if they did address the meeting?

MR TOTO: I don't know whether they addressed it or not because I knew at that morning that there was going to be a meeting.

MR OBOSE: Now you say you kept on going to observe the proceedings there, did you at any stage get to be seated or to attend the meeting as such?

MR TOTO: Yes I was there from time to time.

MR OBOSE: Now what was going on, on the occasions, what did you see happening?

MR TOTO: When I went to the meeting, I found out that there were police saying that they were waiting for the commissioner because they were called to be addressed by the commissioner.

MR OBOSE: Yes, proceed?

MR TOTO: I also waited. After that the commissioner didn't arrive. After waiting, we will still waiting for the commissioner the police would arrive and I observed that the NCOs and the officers were arriving. As time goes by, when the commissioner didn't arrive the situation at the hall changed a little bit.

MR OBOSE: How?

MR TOTO: Because in the morning people were going to be addressed in connection with the elections and the commissioner arrived saying that he was going to address them but he was not specific about what he was going to address them. During the proceedings the issues like the future of the police after the elections came up and those were the questions that were supposed to be asked to the commissioner when he arrived.

MR OBOSE: Yes, proceed?

MR TOTO: Unfortunately every time the commissioner didn't arrive and issues were discussed and people were singing according to my perception because nobody was complaining, everybody was singing and about the financial issue it was raised but a particular person who was responsible for finance was supposed to be there so that he can be able to answer the questions that were asked.

MR OBOSE: Was this during the day now or in the evening?

MR TOTO: Because I'm just summarising, it was late at the time.

MR OBOSE: Now you mentioned at some stage that a meeting changed, what do you mean by changed?

MR TOTO: It changed in this sense, the meeting was initially called to discuss election issues so the issues about finance and the singing of freedom songs it made me to see that it was no longer about elections.

MR OBOSE: Were any slogans chanted?

MR TOTO: Can you please explain what a slogan is?

MR OBOSE: At least as I understand it, viva this or that, down with this and that, I'm saying in the context of South Africa of course.

MR TOTO: Yes I can still remember such slogans.

MR OBOSE: What slogans do you recall?

MR TOTO: I remember the slogan viva Popcru because there were police there so that was related to the police.

MR OBOSE: Were any such slogans "down with Gqozo" chanted?

MR TOTO: Yes I can still remember those slogans too.

MR OBOSE: Did you bring any officer to the meeting?

MR TOTO: Yes I was in a convoy when this officer was fetched who was Captain Sawuti who is a Superintendent today.

MR OBOSE: Did you speak to Captain Sawuti?

MR TOTO: No I didn't open my mouth, I didn't speak to him that particular day.

MR OBOSE: And how did you happen to be in the convoy that went to his house? How did you get to know that people were going there?

MR TOTO: Because I had a room at the training centre at the time, I met with Sergeant Gimana, he was going out at the time saying that I was going to look for Captain Sawuti and Mawangu. I then got into that car, it was him, himself and 

Inspector Nkwenkwe. We arrived at Captain Sawuti's but there was a car that was already there and we could see that that was a police car and the people who were there were Inspector Tyali, Inspector Nqinana and Inspector Moleshe.

MR OBOSE: So did you know as to why he was needed in the meeting?

MR TOTO: I found out whilst I was going in and out of the meeting that I found out why other people were needed there, for example is I can still remember well I think he was needed in connection with financial issues.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Obose. Mr Nompozolo, any questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: And you Ms Collett?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel? Re-examination?

ADV BOSMAN:&#9;No questions thank you.

MR OBOSE: None thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Toto, you're excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

 

 

 

NAME: &#9;&#9;V S SIBUQASHE

APPLICATION NO: AM8001/97

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Obose?

MR OBOSE: Mr Chairman, I'll call Mr Sibuqashe.

That will be the last witness Mr Chairman, I may mention.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR OBOSE: Thank you.

VIYANI SITO SIBUQASHE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

&#9;What rank are you holding in the South African Police Services, Mr Sibuqashe?

MR SIBUQASHE: I'm an inspector.

MR OBOSE: What rank were you holding in 1994 in March?

MR SIBUQASHE: I was an inspector at the time.

MR OBOSE: Where were you stationed?

MR SIBUQASHE: At Bisho Police Station.

MR OBOSE: Were you part of the group that was called by the commissioner to attend a meeting at Bisho College on the morning of the 22nd March 1994?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes, on that day I was part of the police who were told that there was going to be a meeting there. I think it was to be in the afternoon about 2. We were told that the police were already there so we were supposed to go to the college.

MR OBOSE: Did you go? Did you go to the meeting?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes I was with other police from the charge office because there was a van that was operating there. As we were working during the day we heard that the inspectors were needed there. The others were left behind.

MR OBOSE: So you got there in the afternoon? What was going on in the afternoon? What did you find happening at the meeting?

MR SIBUQASHE: At the meeting I found that there were a lot of police when I went to the hall. I could see that there were a lot of police and the meeting was initially called to train the police about the elections that were going to be held and it was said that General Nqoya wasn't there and he left in the morning saying that he was going to come back so they were waiting for him but at the time it was clear that the police were not sitting there or waiting in patience.

MR OBOSE: Yes proceed?

MR SIBUQASHE: After some time because we arrived there were issues that were discussed there, there was a stage there and there was a microphone and Inspector Mfene was the one that I noticed and Inspector Nkwenkwe. They were saying that maybe if there's a particular person in a certain section or financial issues were discussed and the people who were responsible for those things it was said that there were monies that were misappropriated by certain officers.

MR OBOSE: What was the mood of the meeting now, was it an ordinary police meeting. Would you say it looked like any other police meeting you're used to?

MR SIBUQASHE: No it was not an ordinary meeting, an ordinary normal meeting of the police. It was just like a rally because when I was inside there I could see that I was not free because it was said that the police were told, all of them, to come to the college and they did not arrive, they did not all arrive and other police were also expected from other areas, not from Bisho alone.

MR OBOSE: And then what about those policemen who had been told to come to the meeting, what has to be done about that?

MR SIBUQASHE: Because we were arriving at the time it was said that we should give them tasks.

MR OBOSE: To do what?

MR SIBUQASHE: What had happened before was that we heard that there was information saying that soldiers and the police from King William's Town would come so it was said that we should get weapons to arm ourselves, to defend ourselves, because we didn't want to leave that place.

MR OBOSE: So the feeling of the meeting was that we wouldn't believe, we wouldn't be disrupted, we'll fight back if need be, is that would you ...(indistinct) to be the mood?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes the mood was like that. The police said that we're not going to leave that place because when I arrived there the police said that what was happening to them were things that they could not tolerate so they thought that they were in a right way to sit there and fight for their demands.

MR OBOSE: At what stage did the singing of freedom songs take place if at all? Singing of freedom songs, were any such songs sung in that meeting?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes, there would be freedom songs that were sung and slogans that were shouted or chanted when I arrived.

MR OBOSE: Was this familiar to you that police would sing freedom songs, was this often, had you ever seen this happening?

MR SIBUQASHE: As a person who was a member of Popcru, I used to see police singing freedom songs even though at the time it was no easy because we would do that secretly because the senior officers would promise to lay charges against us according to the police laws.

MR OBOSE: Okay. Now okay, so you were a Popcru member by this date?

MR SIBUQASHE: That is correct, Sir.

MR OBOSE: Was Popcru for or against the continuous rule of Brigadier Gqozo?

MR SIBUQASHE: Popcru was against the rule of Brigadier Gqozo because it was affiliated to the COSATU so it was taken as the ANC that was not wanted at the time.

MR OBOSE: Now the meeting progressed into the night, is that correct?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes the meeting continued and as I had said that it was said that the police, the South African Police from King William's Town and the soldiers, South African Defence Force, were given instructions to go and disrupt that meeting. It was said that a certain group of people had to be sent to Brigadier Vuso to want to ask for a key for the armoury from him.

MR OBOSE: Where did you find Brigadier Vuso?

MR SIBUQASHE: We found him in his office, he was in his office.

MR OBOSE: This arming of policemen, roughly what time did this occur when they actually got to be armed with assault rifles, automatic firearms?

MR SIBUQASHE: It was in the afternoon.

MR OBOSE: Okay, where did find - okay, did you bring Brigadier Vuso to the meeting?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes we brought him to the meeting because the instruction was that we were to get the keys. He said that the keys were with Captain Mondo so we decided to go back to the meeting with him because he said that the keys were not with him even though he was the head of the logistics so according to the law of the police one key was supposed to be with him and the other key to Captain Mondo so that's why we brought him to the meeting.

MR OBOSE: Brigadier Vuso, that is?

MR SIBUQASHE: No he didn't go there willingly, he didn't want to go to the meeting because he seemed as if he was scared. As a person whom I worked with before he used to say to me I've disappointed him and he said that the keys were with Mondo, he didn't know anything about the keys so he wanted us to leave him behind. He said that he had trusted me, I was going to be an officer so how was I going to be promoted to an officer if I did such a thing to him.

MR OBOSE: Did you say he seemed to be scared is that so?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes he seemed to be scared because the first time I spoke to him because the police were in a hurry, one of them pulled out a chair whilst he was still sitting, he nearly fell down so I was trying to prevent the police from doing that so while he was trying to speak to them, asking for forgiveness he was referring to me because I was the one who seemed to listen to him.

MR OBOSE: So the mood was generally aggressive in his office towards him?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes because he didn't want to go to that meeting but we ended up taking him to the meeting. I knew that he was supposed to get the key so we decided to take Vusi to account for himself at the meeting because he was the head of the logistics.

MR OBOSE: Okay, from whom was the key found?

MR SIBUQASHE: I am not sure because when a person arrives in the meeting I think it was the first instance that happened in front of me at the meeting for example like a podium a person would be asked questions, there would be people asking questions to that particular person so I didn't notice because there were a lot of us, I didn't notice from whom the key came from because after that I was asked to go and look for General Nqoya, I was one of those people who went looking for him as we were waiting for him so I went out looking for General Nqoya.

MR OBOSE: When you went looking for General Nqoya, was it now in the evening, early evening or towards midnight?

MR SIBUQASHE: No, it was during working hours because we found him in his office together with other officers that were working with him.

MR OBOSE: Oh you found him in his office?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes we went there, when we arrived there there was a counter where, like a reception, there were bodyguards there who were armed, his son and one gentleman by the name of Moagetsi and Impungluwango, when we got there they were there.

MR OBOSE: How were they armed? Side arms or automatic firearms?

MR SIBUQASHE: Two of them had Uzis and one had a side arm but two of them had Uzis.

MR OBOSE: Was this normal that his bodyguards would be armed with sub-machine guns?

MR SIBUQASHE: It was not normal to us because at the time there were a lot of things that were not normal that were happening like the police being guarded, a commissioner being guarded. We only knew that it was only the ministers who were supposed to have bodyguards.

MR OBOSE: So you found these bodyguards, two were armed with sub-machine guns. What happened?

MR SIBUQASHE: They refused access for us to go to General Nqoya but we told them that we from the college and at the college the general left the police saying he was going to come back so we wanted to speak to him concerning that matter because he had left the police behind saying that he was coming back. I think that they were not aware of that so they decided not to restrict us so they gave us permission to go in. We went to the office and then we found the general at the office.

MR OBOSE: With whom was he in his office or at least was he in his office or another officer's office?

MR SIBUQASHE: As the offices would be changed, if the commissioner was working I was not sure whether that was his office but I thought that was like a conference room and he was together with other officers in that room but I can't remember the name of those officers.

MR OBOSE: Okay, did anyone speak to him?

MR SIBUQASHE: I was the one who was supposed to speak to him but when we arrived he was speaking on the telephone, he then lifted his hand showing that he was still busy. He continued speaking on the telephone. Because we were near him I could hear him saying that their officers were taken hostage by the police, they were at the police college. The junior ranks and the warrant officers, he said that there are others in front of me here, he then said that I will call you again, he dropped the phone. I think that maybe he was talking to Brigadier Gqozo.

MR OBOSE: Yes, did you take him to the meeting?

MR SIBUQASHE: I spoke to him telling him that "General, we are waiting for you at the meeting at the college so we are here to take you", I told him that he should go to the meeting.

MR OBOSE: Did he agree to this?

MR SIBUQASHE: He didn't make this difficult, he pretended as if he was agreeing with us. He said that he had things that disturbed him in the office, he wanted to go back to the meeting so he said he was going to go to the meeting but he still has to do some things, he would go there by himself so we must trust him that he would be there. We then left him, we went and gave out a report back to the college.

MR OBOSE: Was this accepted, your report back to the college?

MR SIBUQASHE: It was rejected very badly, our report back was rejected because we were told that we were sent to come to bring Nqoya with us so we were told to guard the camp after that and then another group was sent to take him.

MR OBOSE: Oh, so your unit was seen as not having carried out the task and you were demoted to do guard duties now?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes, it seemed as if we had failed, we were also disappointed because we'd failed, that person had lied to us so we left him there at his office, so it was very hard to be a failure amongst other people.

MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman, nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, just a few Mr Chairman.

&#9;Now you are saying that you went, you were sent to fetch General Nqoya. At that stage were the freedom songs being sung?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes they were sung. They were singing and the Gqozo name was mentioned it was said "down with Gqozo and ADM".

MR NOMPOZOLO: And every time when an officer comes it would be said "down with that officer" for instance it's Dolo, it's going to be said "down with Dolo" and then back to Gqozo, "down with Gqozo" not so?

MR SIBUQASHE: I can't well whether we did say down with an officer but there was that general attitude towards the officers, we were not seeing eye to eye.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Because of the working relations?

MR SIBUQASHE: According to my perception as I've already said that I was a member of Popcru because of the working conditions, I assumed that they were part of the ruling.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Nompozolo. Yes Ms Collett, have you got any questions?

MS COLLETT: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Sibuqashe, do you know S S Gola who is an applicant in these proceedings?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes I know him.

MR MAPOMA: Did you see him on that day in question, that is the 22nd and 23rd March 1994 during that incident? Did you see him?

MR SIBUQASHE: No I didn't see him, I don't remember seeing him.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know Zalake Kolele?

MR SIBUQASHE: Yes I know him, Sir.

MR MAPOMA: Was he there?

MR SIBUQASHE: I once saw him in the hall.

MR MAPOMA: Was he amongst those who were chanting slogans and singing freedom songs?

MR SIBUQASHE: I didn't specifically look at him but what I'm trying to say is that I saw him that day as others. I saw Mr Nkwenkwe and Mfene and others.

MR MAPOMA: Okay, thanks a lot. Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. Any questions from the panel?

DR TSOTSI: Nothing thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes from you as well? Alright.

Yes, Mr Sibuqashe you are excused.

MR SIBUQASHE: Thank you Sir.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR OBOSE: That will be all the applicants Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are those your witnesses?

MR OBOSE: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Collett, is your witness here?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, my witness is here.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You still got one left Mr Nompozolo?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I still have a witness but I want to reconsider my position.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. Ms Collett are you able to call your witness?

MS COLLETT: Yes I am.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you do that please? What is the name?

MS COLLETT: It's Mr Luwana, Inspector Luwana.

CHAIRPERSON: Luwana?

MS COLLETT: Luwana.

NOPOMO VICTOR LUWANA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT: 

&#9;Is it correct that you are a policeman attached to the South African Police Services?

MS COLLETT: What rank do you hold?

MR LUWANA: I'm an inspector.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that on the 22nd March 1994 you were a bodyguard to Commissioner Nqoya?

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MS COLLETT: Were you with him throughout the period of the 22nd March?

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MS COLLETT: Now there was a meeting that was called at the police college, are you aware of that?

MR LUWANA: Yes I'm aware of that.

MS COLLETT: Can you briefly sketch to the Committee what happened on that day as you recall it?

MR LUWANA: Even though this happened a long time ago but according to what I can remember on that particular day General Nqoya arrived at the office saying that there was a meeting that was supposed to be at the police college. At this meeting there were the police, I think plus or minus five of them but they were not above five, who were sent to Pretoria to be trained in connection with elections. So these police were going to go to the college and tell the other police the role that the police were going to take when the elections were going on.

&#9;Brigadier Bongusa who was the commander of the police college at the time, he was sent by General Nqoya to call the police in order for the police from Pretoria to give a report back to other police on what role they were going to take in the elections. General Nqoya said he was going to attend the meeting because he wanted to hear what role were the police going to take at the elections. I think at about 9 or before 9 he received a message that he was being needed at a meeting with Brigadier Gqozo at his office. He postponed the college meeting. He went to attend the meeting with Brigadier Gqozo at his office.

&#9;When he arrived there at Brigadier Gqozo's office he was told that that meeting was being postponed for another day that was not set yet. Then General Nqoya, because when he looked at the time he could see that it was still early so the meeting at the college was not over at the time. Because he was interested to know what role the police were going to take at the elections, he said that we must go to the college.

&#9;When we arrived at the college inside the hall there was nobody. The police were there, they were outside the hall, they were not inside. He then said he wondered why these police were outside because the meeting was supposed to be on inside but he just said that and then he went inside. When the police saw him they said "here is Nqoya" the police that were outside. They then called the other police, they went inside the hall and General Nqoya went in and he went to the stage. All the police went in and they were inside the hall saying "down with Nqoya, down with Nqoya" when they were coming in. 

&#9;When General Nqoya was in there, Inspector Mfene took the microphone, he told the police to keep quiet because there was noise there. He said "down with Nqoya", he told the police to keep quiet and indeed they did so. He was addressing the police and he said that "here is General Nqoya, the one we are waiting for, he is here." He had arrived and we wanted him to tell us about our pension funds because according to our information all the TBVC States had been given their pensions and if we would go to the new South Africa without getting our pension money, we won't be able to get it and the issuing of promotions, we wanted him to tell us about the pensions.

&#9;After that he took the microphone and gave it to General Nqoya to address the police. After he had given the microphone to General Nqoya I went out at the time so I couldn't hear what General Nqoya said because I went outside. I went to Brigadier Bongusa's office. When I arrived there I asked whether the Brigadier was away of the meeting that was going on at the hall. Brigadier Bongusa then said, he asked me whether I was with General Nqoya. I said yes I was with him. He asked where he was. I told him that he was inside the hall. General Bongusa said "General Nqoya was not supposed to go there he was supposed to call me before going to that meeting." He then said that he was not going to attend that meeting at the hall. That was Brigadier Bongusa saying that.

&#9;I asked him what was going to happen now because Brigadier Nqoya was inside the hall. Brigadier Bongusa said he doesn't know what was going to happen. But because I knew that General Nqoya was not away, of what was happening there, because he only knew that he was going to attend a meeting in connection with elections. When I arrived at the college I went to the meeting again, I went straight to General Nqoya when he had this microphone with him. I said "General, Brigadier Gqozo wanted to see you in his office." After saying that General Nqoya said to these police " I received a message just now saying that Brigadier Gqozo wanted to see me in his office." 

&#9;After he said that, Inspector Mfene took a microphone again asking the police whether they should release him or not. Others said yes, others said no, so they didn't agree with each other. General Nqoya then said that they must write down their complaints or demands so that he can take that list to Brigadier Gqozo and discuss those with him because he didn't know anything about the pension issues, he also wanted his pension money. So he said that he must write down these issues and then he would go and discuss them with Brigadier Gqozo. The police then agreed with each other saying that they must release him. They then wrote down those issues, I think they wrote them in General Nqoya's diary.

&#9;General Nqoya then left and he went to Brigadier Gqozo. When he arrived at Brigadier Gqozo's he said that "Brigadier, the police that are at the police college, they want their pension money, they are concerned about promotions and I was not clear about the pension monies of the police, I just heard about that issue that the civil servants pensions were at Sanlam but I can't explain to them, I can't satisfy them with my explanation of how to go to Sanlam."

&#9;Brigadier Gqozo then said "What are you saying then?"

&#9;General Nqoya then said that he prefers that somebody who was aware of where the pensions were must go and address those police because they had to be addressed, they cannot be left like that.

&#9;Brigadier Gqozo then said "Okay, I will call the Minister of Finance to go and address those police" because he was the person who knew where the pensions were. Brigadier Gqozo then phoned. At the time at the office it was Brigadier Gqozo, General Nqoya and the Minister of Police, Brunet, at that office together with other people that I didn't know but I knew those three. Brigadier Gqozo then phoned the Minister of Finance saying that he is asking the Minister to go to the police to address the police concerning the pension issues. As this was a complaint to the police it was all the people from Ciskei at the time were complaining about this because everybody wanted their pensions because there was a rumour that if they were going to be incorporated in the new South Africa they won't get all that money. 

&#9;When the Minister of Finance answered he said that yes, he can be able to address the police but he cannot go there while those police were armed, he cannot go there and address them concerning the pension issue whilst they were armed. He said that he would ask for a armoured vehicle from the soldiers and he would ask the soldiers to escort him so that he can address the police because the police had to be addressed. The minister, he said that on the phone, it seemed as if they were agreeing with each other when Brigadier Gqozo said that he would be escorted by the soldiers. He then dropped the phone, Brigadier Gqozo then phoned these soldiers. At the time it was past 4 or 5 o'clock in the afternoon. Brigadier Gqozo then called the soldiers. He said that he was asking for back up from the soldiers because he doesn't know what the police were doing, they were asking for his pension so he wanted to send the Minister of Finance to address the police so he - I don't know whether he referred to it as a platoon or what but he said that he wanted them to have an armoured vehicle to accompany or to escort the Minister of Finance so that nothing can happen to him at the college. I think that the soldiers said that they could not go with him because they also wanted their pension money. 

&#9;Then Brigadier Gqozo said that even these soldiers, they want their pension money, all the Ciskeian people want their pension money. I then thought that maybe the soldiers refused to escort the minister, they also wanted their pension money.

&#9;When Brigadier Gqozo realised that these soldiers didn't want to escort him, he spoke to the Minister of Police, Mr Brunet, saying that he must phone the stability unit, I don't know whether in East London or where, so that the stability unit can come with an armoured vehicle, take the minister and escort the minister to these police so that he can address the pension issues to the police.

&#9;It was towards 6 o'clock at the time. Then Brigadier Gqozo said that he was leaving. He said "General, I spoke with Minister Brunet, he going to sort this all out". He said that he was leaving and then indeed he left. We were at his office at the time. Brigadier Gqozo then left with his bodyguards. We realised that the people who were leaving at the parliament, the people who were left behind were myself, General Nqoya, Brigadier Adoni and Minister Brunet and Sergeant Getsi and Sergeant Nqoya the son of General Nqoya. He said that we must go to the ministerial complex where Brunet was staying. He said that we must go there and wait for the stability unit so that they can escort the minister to the police college. We indeed went to the ministerial complex.

&#9;It was after 6 towards 7 at the time. We waited there for the stability unit. Whilst we were still waiting there we heard the 8 o'clock news that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned. We heard that from the television news but we didn't believe that because the last time we saw Gqozo he spoke with Brunet so that he can arrange for the stability unit to escort the minister to go and address these police.

&#9;At about 10, 10 o'clock news, Inspector Luwana who is a Captain now from the former Ciskei, I think he was at the college at the time, he appeared on T.V., he was being interviewed, asked how they felt that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned from his position. He said that they were happy and they had forced him to resign. He was interviewed at the 10 o'clock news whilst we were still at the ministerial complex.

&#9;After that General Nqoya phoned Minister Brunet asking him whether he had heard what was said on the T.V. news saying that Brigadier Gqozo had resigned. He then said yes, he heard that. General Nqoya asked why we were still waiting there, he asked whether the stability unit was still on the way. He said yes, they were still coming.

&#9;After 30 minutes, General Nqoya said that he can't wait any more because the stability unit was not coming and the police had to be addressed. He said to me we must go to the college. Brunet then said that if General Nqoya was going back to the meeting without any answers for the police he said that the police would shoot him. He said "It's better for me to be shot by the police instead of sitting here not knowing what I'm waiting for". He then said we must go to the college. When we were on our way to the college getting out of the ministerial complex, at the gate there were soldiers that were guarding the ministers. When we arrived there these soldiers saw us and they didn't open the gates when they saw us. They closed the gates and they called the college saying that "here is General Nqoya here, we found him." When they said that, two police arrived, Majela and Balus. They guarded us with other soldiers so that we cannot get out of the car, we cannot move from that area. We were driving two cars at the time, we were told to sit in those cars. We then waited there, we were told to wait for the police to come and fetch us. A kombi came with police and this kombi, Mjikalezi was there, Inspector Loni, Moleshe and one young man but I don't know who it was. Other people, I can't remember who they were, but I can remember those that I mentioned. They stopped the kombi, they told us to get out of the car, they pointed us with rifles at the time. We got out of the car, it was said that our firearms should be taken from us. Moleshe took our firearms, were taken out of those cars, those two cars. They took us to the kombi, we then went to the college.

&#9;When we arrived there at the college there were a lot of police, there were more than the number that was there before when we were there. When we arrived there with that kombi, the kombi stopped next to the door of the hall. The police were told to step back and then police, about 8 or 10, came with rifles. They were pointing at us with those rifles and as we were getting out of the car it was Brigadier Adoni who was going to get out of the car first. I thought that we were going to be shot at that time because everybody went back and then we were faced with the people who pointed us with these guns. He went back to the car, this brigadier, I then was the first one who got out of the car and then General Nqoya was the last one. 

&#9;I went inside the hall. When I went in the hall, as General Nqoya was getting in, I was the first one to go in and I was also a non-commissioned officer, so I thought maybe this was not effecting me, maybe they wanted General Nqoya. When I arrived there I didn't go to the stage where the officers were sitting, I went to the non-commissioned officers. As I was a non-commissioned officer Nkwenkwe called my name telling me that I must go up the stage. When I was going up the stage General Nqoya was pointed with a gun, was kicked and he was pushed. He went to the stage, he sat amongst other officers on the stage. 

&#9;Nkwenkwe said to Captain Makhubalo, "Go and sit next to him because you are together." Then Captain Makhubalo sat next to General Nqoya. We all went in and sat down there. A lot happened whilst we were sitting there. I cannot remember everything that happened but it was what had already been said here, the CV's of the police were asked and there was a certain inspector that I can't remember his surname but he was working at the security, bugging the telephones. He would be given a microphone and he would be asked whose phones were being bugged and why they were being bugged and how much money is there for the informers money, such things were being asked because in each and every government there is an intelligence man and they were asked to tell everything that was happening in those offices. There were a lot of things that were happening there. 

&#9;They were also asked about the misappropriation of money that we ended up staying there until the next morning. When we left there the following morning they didn't focus on me at the time when I was leaving there. As we were going out I went and joined the non-commissioned officers who went to the college but I was not under pressure at that time, I was able to go home if I wanted to go home. It was about 8 or 9. I went to the stadium. There at the stadium there were civil servants from different departments of Ciskei. The hall was full and it was said that Gqozo had resigned and he was going to come and address the people concerning certain issues. I just heard that as I was on my way there.

&#9;When we arrived at the stadium, I can't remember what was being said but a lot of things were discussed but what I noticed there, the civil servants that were not police, they wanted to take part in what was done by the police. It seemed as if they were happy that Gqozo was going to come and address the civil servants at large, not only the police about the pension funds. Nkwenkwe then said that there's nothing between us, we as the police and the civil servants because General Nqoya and Captain Makwethu went to draw money, sports funds money and the widows' fund. Then Nkwenkwe as the person who had the microphone was told that the money was there so the police had to go and get that money. 

&#9;Then Nkwenkwe, when he was addressing these people, he said there was nothing that was in between us, the police have to go to the college, their money was there. So the civil servants were surprised when they heard that the police's money was there and the civil servants had shouted, were shouting saying that the police were only preparing for themselves, they thought that this was done for everybody, so the police were now going to get their money. They were shouting and insulting the police, all those people that were there. They said that the police did not know politics so that was what was expected from them, so that ended there and then I left. That is all I can remember up to now.

MS COLLETT: When you arrived at the hall was the commissioner's wife and daughter there?

MR LUWANA: The commissioner's wife, we heard that from the ministerial complex, when General Nqoya phoned his house because when we were there he phoned his house, he wanted to report what was going on. Nobody answered the phone in his house. He phoned the neighbours and he was told that a Casspir had arrived with soldiers. They said that a soldier's Casspir arrived, the doors were kicked and they broke the doors and they took his wife and his child and they took them to the Casspir. He asked where they took them, the neighbour said he didn't know, we're still at the minister's complex at the time.

MS COLLETT: When you arrived at the hall did you see the daughter and the wife there?

MR LUWANA: Yes I saw them.

MS COLLETT: And are you able to comment on their frame of mind or how they were behaving when you arrived there, that's the wife and the daughter?

MR LUWANA: When we arrived they were sitting in the corner at the back of the stage. When General Nqoya was pushed, kicked, going up to the stage, they could see him. When he was sitting down as female Captain Makhubalo was called to sit next to General Nqoya, General Nqoya's wife was there, sitting there with the child and it seemed as if she didn't like what was happening to her husband.

MS COLLETT: Now this Makhubalo that you're referring to, this is a female policeman, isn't it? 

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MS COLLETT: Was anything said about her and a relationship with her in front of the commissioner's wife?

MR LUWANA: Yes it was said that General Nqoya gave her a job whilst she had criminal cases and he did that because they had an affair of which that was not the case, it was not General Nqoya who appointed Captain Makhubalo after she had had criminal cases.

MS COLLETT: Did General Nqoya's wife and child go at some stage?

MR LUWANA: No they were also sitting there.

MS COLLETT: Were they kept there the entire evening as well?

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MS COLLETT: Did they appear to be scared and distressed?

MR LUWANA: Yes.

MS COLLETT: Do you confirm that General Nqoya was taken to this police college after Brigadier Gqozo had stepped down?

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MS COLLETT: Was anything at that hall said to suggest that it had a political gathering or a meeting with political intentions or the like?

MR LUWANA: No there was nothing like that. Even on the first occasion that we arrived there we found out that they wanted to know about the pension money of the police and the promotions, that's what we found out on the first occasion. That is why he wanted to go and meet with Brigadier Gqozo concerning that. When he came back it was when he was asked about his CV's that had nothing to do with politics.

MS COLLETT: How was General Nqoya and the other officers treated by the non-commissioned officers?

MR LUWANA: The officers that were there before us, I didn't see them being treated badly except that they were asked to tell about their CV's and they were asked to tell when they were appointed and those that were asked about the funds. The officers that I saw being treated badly were those that would arrived whilst we were there because there are officers that arrived after we'd arrived like Brigadier Geba and Brigadier Ngani. While they were coming towards the stage they were kicked and then when they arrived on the stage nothing had happened to them except that they were only questioned.

MS COLLETT: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Obose, questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR OBOSE: Thank you Mr Chairman.

&#9;So Mr Luwana, you say intelligence officers were debriefed in that meeting, is that correct? To tell as to which houses did they bug and what information was collected is that correct? You mentioned some policemen who had been in the security, now I call it intelligence because that's the current name now, about bugging and all that, is that correct?

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR OBOSE: What was asked of him to tell the meeting?

MR LUWANA: He was asked to tell the meeting about his job of bugging the telephones, he was asked why he was bugging those telephones, such information, the information that he was working with there.

MR OBOSE: Now in military terms that is called debriefing, isn't that so? When intelligence people are supposed to tell as to what they had been doing for the previous regime, is that not so?

MR LUWANA: That didn't used to happen to intelligence members to disclose that information in public.

MR OBOSE: But it is normal after a coup, isn't that so, that intelligence officers would be debriefed? Hasn't your police training taught you that?

MR LUWANA: I haven't met the coup or the overthrowing so I don't know what happens after it.

MR OBOSE: Alright, when Sebe was overthrown by Brigadier Gqozo you were already a policeman, is that not so?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Weren't the senior officers who served under Sebe debriefed at Zone 6 by the officers who were loyal to Brigadier Gqozo?

MR LUWANA: I won't know about that because I was not very close to the people who were in that position.

MR OBOSE: It is your evidence that, that I'm gathering from your - deducing from it, that at all times Minister Brunet seemed to be of the opinion that the police were dangerous, is that correct? On that day?

MR LUWANA: Would you please repeat your question?

MR OBOSE: Would it be correct to deduce from your evidence that at all times material, Minister Brunet - at least the Minister of Finance, you didn't tell his name, was under the impression that police were dangerous hence attempts were made to secure an armoured vehicle? Isn't that correct?

MR LUWANA: It is the Minister of Finance who said he was not in a position to go and address the police because the police were armed.

MR OBOSE: Did you establish as to how he got to know this information, that police were armed?

MR LUWANA: Police are always armed, police are always in possession of firearms all the time.

MR OBOSE: Well that must be an over simplification. Then what would have been the need if police are ordinarily armed, what would have been the need for the armoured vehicle?

MR LUWANA: Even myself as a policeman I have a firearm. When it comes to addressing the police knowing very well that there could be differences in that particular subject, you have to go there armed and you will be sure that you're going to be safe by so doing.

MR OBOSE: Well ordinarily police do carry firearms, we do know that. Does it mean a minister who is to address policemen has got to go there in an armoured vehicle, normally?

MR LUWANA: When the police meet in that manner even if it's not policemen, when you see a group of people with firearms and then they would call you to come and address them you are obliged to go there armed because if there is a difference in opinion anything can happen.

MR OBOSE: Alright, let's go back to Bongusa, Bongusa had told you in the morning that he himself would not go to that meeting, is that correct?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: What impression did you get from his statement, what did you deduce? He said he is surprised Nqoya is in the meeting, isn't that so? That's how I understood your evidence. Or at least he did not know that Nqoya was in a meeting or at least seemed not to be in favour of the fact that Nqoya was in a meeting, is that so?

MR LUWANA: To explain this, General Nqoya was not to go to the meeting, the person who would go to that meeting was Brigadier Bongusa and the other members who were coming from Pretoria to address the other members but because that meeting was postponed and then he decided to go there and then he went to the hall thinking that the meeting was in process but when he arrived there seeing that Brigadier Bongusa was not there and I also saw that this was not the kind of meeting that he talked about. He asked me where General Nqoya was, I told him and then he said he was not supposed to go there without phoning him first. That was not a normal procedure if there would be a meeting and then it would end up changing to be that situation.

MR OBOSE: I see, then Bongusa, what did Bongusa say about his, that is Bongusa's attendance of the meeting?

MR LUWANA: He said he was not going to that meeting.

MR OBOSE: And yet he was the head of the college?

MR LUWANA: Yes that's what he told me.

MR OBOSE: You say immediately Nqoya got to the hall people chanted "down with Nqoya"?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct, they were not singing but they were just saying "down with Nqoya."

MR OBOSE: Was this - on any other occasion heard these police shouting "down with Nqoya" in his presence?

MR LUWANA: I just saw that for the first time hearing the police saying that in his presence and in my presence too.

MR OBOSE: When you got there in the evening, was there any singing of freedom songs in the hall at Bisho Police College?

MR LUWANA: There were no freedom songs when I got in there. There was no singing inside, each and every one as we were coming in, each and every one wanted to be in the forefront and to see General Nqoya, that is when we were told to go back so that the car could get some space but there was no singing.

MR OBOSE: In any event, Mr Luwana, you never attended the meeting yourself, you only went there as Nqoya's bodyguard, you were not party to this meeting, isn't that correct?

MR LUWANA: I was a policeman, I was part of the meeting. The one where preparations of elections were going to be made.

MR OBOSE: You don't understand my question, what I'm putting to you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Obose, you don't have headphones on so you can't hear when the interpreter is still speaking to us, interpreting, then you ask your question. We're missing your question.

MR OBOSE: Oh, excuse me.

CHAIRPERSON: So take it easy.

MR OBOSE: Excuse me.

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR OBOSE: Your attending the meeting, Mr Luwana, was only on the occasions you went there as Brigadier Nqoya's bodyguard, that's all. Those are the only occasions you were in that hall?

MR LUWANA: Yes it was at the time I was with Mr Nqoya getting into the meeting.

MR OBOSE: Okay. Is it correct that you were armed with Uzi sub-machine guns?

MR LUWANA: No that is not true.

MR OBOSE: Moleketsi?

MR LUWANA: He did not have an Uzi firearm.

MR OBOSE: You heard Mr Sibuqashe testify, is that correct?

MR LUWANA: No I was not present, I was outside.

MR OBOSE: His evidence is that in the afternoon of the 22nd March 1994 he found you and your other bodyguard armed with sub-machine guns and he didn't want to let them have access to Mr Nqoya and they found Mr Nqoya what looked like a conference room and he was on the phone, is that correct?

That's at the commissioner's office next to the legislature as I understand it?

MR LUWANA: That did not happen that the police looked for us and found us next to the commissioner's office. We moved from the college to Brigadier Gqozo's office, from there to the ministerial complex. The firearms that we had were 9 mm. Even today I still do not have mine.

MR OBOSE: Is it correct, Mr Luwana, that General Nqoya was close to Brigadier Gqozo or at least in the nature of things would have been perceived as being close to Brigadier Gqozo?

MR LUWANA: That is not true. To prove that is not true, General Nqoya was an officer, his brother was shot at Bisho massacre because of what Brigadier Gqozo did therefore what they say it's not true, he was not close but because of the post that he was in, his position, he was forced to be there in that particular position.

MR OBOSE: They would naturally meet and discuss strategy, they were the two generals, right? Other one heading the State, other one heading the police? Naturally, head of State and the commissioner would meet now and again, it's logical, isn't that so?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct but he was not the only police officer. Normally all the departmental heads in the police force would meet with counsel of State or president to give a report back from the ground.

MR OBOSE: And to be given instructions by the head of State and or the counsel and they would in turn pass it on to the police?

MR LUWANA: That is not the procedure. The police get the instructions from Brigadier Gqozo, issues are discussed. Brigadier Gqozo is a politician and General Nqoya was just a policeman, he would state his facts and the police would discuss that subject and decide whether they should go ahead or not.

MR OBOSE: Oh, so Nqoya would give information to Gqozo about what is happening on the ground as a policeman?

MR LUWANA: There was no stage where General Nqoya would go to Brigadier Gqozo alone and give information not unless he was summoned to a meeting by Brigadier Gqozo. All the departmental heads would be present to give reports according to their fields.

MR OBOSE: And the departmental heads were officers, naturally?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: Each will have a departmental head who is an NCO?

Are the departmental heads NCOs?

MR LUWANA: No they are not NCOs.

MR OBOSE: So the perception may very well have been that the officers are working in collaboration with Gqozo, wouldn't that have been fair to say?

MR LUWANA: I am not sure what kind of collaboration?

MR OBOSE: Well, they'd go and brief him and meet him in meetings and he would chair the meeting as a head of State, is that so?

MR LUWANA: Yes they would be sent or that would be a mandate from the police on the ground, non-commissioned officers and then they would give a mandate to their head and the head would report to the council.

MR OBOSE: Alright Mr Luwana, last two questions. You say Gqozo phoned the army. Okay naturally you don't know who he spoke to and you heard him commenting that even the army is with this now, is that correct?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MR OBOSE: And roughly what time was this phone call made? Of course asking you to estimate now.

MR LUWANA: I think it was about 4 or 5.

MR OBOSE: Or shortly or at least roughly an hour thereafter he went home, that is Brigadier Gqozo, at about 6 he went home or shortly after that phone call?

MR LUWANA: After that phone call it became clear that there was a misunderstanding between him and the soldiers. He told the Minister of Police, Brunet that is, to organise a stability unit to go and fetch the minister as the soldiers were refusing to go there and then he left about an hour after that.

MR OBOSE: Now did Brigadier Gqozo, as his title indicates, brigadier, was the head of the army as well, not so?

MR LUWANA: He was a counsel of State in charge of all the departments, yes he was a soldier.

MR OBOSE: And he was telling the soldiers to do something and as you ...(indistinct) say, there was a misunderstanding?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct because everyone, especially the police, they knew that Gqozo did not like the police that much, he used to be in favour of soldiers, that was obvious. It comes as a surprise to me that the senior officers were very close to Brigadier Gqozo because they're also a police and Gqozo disliked the police, all of them, officer or non-commissioned officers, he used to prefer soldiers.

MR OBOSE: Nothing further Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR OBOSE

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Obose.

&#9;Mr Nompozolo, questions?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you, no questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Mr Luwana, when you were with Brigadier Bongusa, I understand Commissioner Nqoya was already at the meeting?

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And Brigadier Bongusa said to you that he would not attend that meeting, he that is Bongusa?

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact he was surprised that Commissioner Nqoya would attend that meeting as it was then?

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: So you decided to go and fetch Commissioner Nqoya there?

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you went to him and said to him that Brigadier Gqozo wants to talk to him?

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact by saying that you were lying to him?

MR LUWANA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you lie to him?

MR LUWANA: I wanted to take him out of that situation. As his bodyguard that was my duty to try and rescue him if every he is in trouble.

MR MAPOMA: So in a way you were taking care of his interests, that is Commissioner Nqoya?

MR LUWANA: I was doing whatever because that was my duty.

MR MAPOMA: So you did not go to that meeting as a police officer as such, you went to that meeting to fetch Commissioner Nqoya, get him out of that meeting, that was the reason why you went there?

MR LUWANA: I went to that meeting because I was going there with General Nqoya but when I realised that that was not what he said he was attending.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, no, you didn't get me correctly, sorry. At the first instance, when you went there, when you went there for the first time, you went there - when you went to tell him that Brigadier wanted him, you did not go there as a policeman, you went there to get him out of that meeting, that was the purpose of going there?

MR LUWANA: I do not understand.

MR MAPOMA: After you spoke to Brigadier Bongusa, you went to that meeting where Commissioner Nqoya was. You were not attending that meeting as such as a policeman, you were going to that meeting to get Commissioner Nqoya out of that meeting, that was your purpose of going there?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct, when I was from Brigadier Bongusa I went there to take Brigadier Nqoya, General Nqoya.

MR MAPOMA: Yes and at that time the understanding was that all police officers are expected to attend that meeting?

MR LUWANA: That was not the case.

MR MAPOMA: Now in your view at which stage did you attend that meeting as a police officer?

MR LUWANA: There was no stage whereby I attended there, the meeting as a policeman except for the fact that I went there with General Nqoya. When I realised that there was a shift, there was no reason, nothing was mentioned that all the police should get there because at least the police stations, there should be people in the police stations, only the warrant officers were called to the meeting. The fact that they called each and every policeman to attend the meeting, it's something that they did out of their own and even those who were later contacted they were not part and parcel of that meeting.

MR MAPOMA: So I take it that you were not in favour of attending that meeting, you as a person?

MR LUWANA: I am one of the policemen who were not part and parcel of that meeting because we were not called. Only a few policemen were called. The fact that they ended up calling each and every policeman to the meeting is something that they did out of their own and even General Nqoya was no longer there and myself, were no longer there.

MR MAPOMA: Yes but that does not answer my question. My question now to you is that you as a person were not in favour of attending that meeting, yes or no?

MR LUWANA: I am not in a position to answer direct to that question because I wanted to go to the meeting, the real one, at the time. The one on voter education but what ended up happening, it came to me as a surprise because I knew nothing about it. Perhaps if I was briefed or told what was it about maybe I would have some interest but because I didn't know anything about it I was not interested.

MR MAPOMA: Now after you spoke to Brigadier Bongusa, you were not in favour of attending that meeting, is that correct?

MR LUWANA: Not myself, General Nqoya. I realised that this meeting could be dangerous to him because there were comments that utterances like he would not go out of that meeting without addressing the police, that was not the reason for him to be there.

MR MAPOMA: Yes so ...(intervention)

MR LUWANA: My absence in that meeting, me as an individual, it's not because I was leaving because I did not want to be there, I was leaving because I was protecting General Nqoya and that was my duty.

MR MAPOMA: Am I made to believe that you wanted to attend that meeting otherwise?

MR LUWANA: If I did get the information about the meeting I was going to go to that meeting because if all the police had to be in that meeting, as one of the policemen I would have to be there in that meeting.

MR MAPOMA: Now Mr Luwana, in your view why did the Brigadier resign?

MR LUWANA: The reason in my view, the reason for him to resign it's because he did not get co-operation from the soldiers, not from the police, I can even quote a few to prove that Brigadier Gqozo, the police was not his concern, the police could not let him to leave his position or resign. In the former Ciskei there was once a march, an ANC march that was conducted by police. Brigadier Gqozo during the discussions in that panel he mentioned that the march should only go within the boundaries of Ciskei of South Africa and they even went up as far as the stadium, conducted by the police, it was addressed at the stadium. No one was shot at and the march came to an end. Brigadier Gqozo said that police were cowards. He said the people got inside there and they were saying that they had won the victory because they managed to go beyond the crossing line.

&#9;In the second march he used the soldiers, the police were not used. The police were told to stand inside the building, the government buildings and the soldiers were in charge there to prove that he trusted them and the police - that proves that the police were not the people who would lead him to resign that is why I am saying the reason for Gqozo to resign, it was through lack of co-operation between him and the soldiers.

MR MAPOMA: So do I understand you to mean that the reason is that he did not get assistance from the soldiers in averting what these policemen were doing there? Is that what you mean?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct, that is what I think.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Mr Luwana. Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mapoma. 

&#9;Mr Luwana, after you had told General Nqoya that Brigadier Gqozo wants to see him in his office, and he was then finally released by the meeting to go, did he go from the college hall straight to the office of Brigadier Gqozo?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't make an appointment first to see Brigadier Gqozo?

MR LUWANA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And he received you when you got to his office?

MR LUWANA: When we arrived we waited there because he had some meeting so we waited for him until such time we saw him but he was in the office.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you were at his office until he left at about 6 in the evening?

MR LUWANA: Yes he left us in the office.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Are there other questions?

ADV BOSMAN: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination Ms Collett?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MS COLLETT: Just on question.

&#9;Is it correct that when General Nqoya was at the meeting that morning and he could have been kept hostage there if the police had wanted to keep him?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MS COLLETT: Is it correct that the reason that he appeared to have been allowed to go was because he was going to discuss their grievances with Brigadier Gqozo?

MR LUWANA: Yes that is correct.

MS COLLETT: I have nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Luwana, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Now Mr Nompozolo, what is your position because we seem to have come to the end of the evidence. Is your position still the same as you'd explained to us previously?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I have consulted with Mr Sawuti whom I was going to call. We have reconsidered our position, all what we are going to place on record has been placed on record, therefore I'm not calling him. We are ready to argue Mr Chairman but I don't know if I can't just have about five minutes just to phone the magistrate and say I need so much time, they can just wait for me?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we can do that because this also concludes the matters that we've got on the roll so we'll hear your addresses and then we'll adjourn these proceedings. So let us stand down for just a few minutes please. Don't disperse, can I ask you please not to disperse just to allow Mr Nompozolo to make this arrangement and then we'll reconvene immediately and take the addresses and then you can be released. We'll stand down for a few moments.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) your submissions?

MR OBOSE IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Chairman, the Committee considers this application, my applicants will submit that it will be pertinent to consider the political climate in Ciskei at the time. There had been a lot of political activity against Gqozo, Biso Mashake, his testimony to this, the ongoing fights between the party that he created, the ADM and other movements on the ground.&#9;

&#9;Your worship, the applicants have stated that the police lived as they still do in these communities. Their houses were being burnt down, they were ostracised by the community and also what complicated things for them was that Gqozo as Mr Luwana has so eloquently testified, Gqozo was against the police. He ignored them so the police found themselves in this no win situation, the community doesn't like them and Gqozo doesn't like them either.

&#9;Mr Chairman, the meeting, a lot has been made in cross-examination about whether the meeting was organised, whether there was any agenda, there was any action planned. Mr Chairman, with respect, this is an oversimplification of the state in which the police found themselves. Firstly Mr Chairman, we're dealing with policemen here, we're not dealing about members of a liberation movement who would have formed cells to discuss issues and form out plans of action. That's one aspect.

&#9;Secondly Mr Chairman, it would be unrealistic to suppose that it would have been easy for policemen to meet in those numbers on any other given day. Police, Mr Chairman, are subject to the orders of their immediate officers etc., they cannot just attend meetings unless instructed to do so. So accordingly that particular meeting presented an opportunity for those who had an agenda. Mr Chairman, it is clear and needs no repeating that the meeting was accordingly hijacked by people with a political motive. It may very well be so, Mr Chairman, that not all the applicants knew, in fact they told the Committee that the meeting would take a certain turn but once it had taken such a turn they identified with the proceedings and took part in the manner and form which they testified to.

&#9;Mr Chairman, the meeting was essentially political. Chanting slogans "down a head of state" is by it's very nature political. I needs no further explanation. Police armed themselves, battle plans were put in place, guarding the perimeters of the Bisho Police College, Police armed themselves with automatic firearms, officers were rounded up, Commissioner Nqoya himself was sought, Gqozo was sought as well, the soldiers joined in the meeting and one of them, we heard the evidence, took the microphone and addressed the gathering to the effect that they were supportive of what was going on and indeed Mr Chairman that was correct because even Gqozo himself was told likewise by the soldiers. 

&#9;Now Mr Chairman, an attempt is being made to split the events of the meeting into piecemeal kind of fashion, that is an attempt is being made to separate the questioning of the officers from the meeting itself. Now I'm not too sure Mr Chairman how this is possible. The officers, Mr Chairman, were close to Gqozo, Mr Luwana has so testified or the police were being perceived and Mr Chairman I'll submit that that is sufficient. Now they were disarmed. Now the people in the know which was Mfene and Nkwenkwe say the idea was to have them all here so that Gqozo could see. Now it is important also Mr Chairman that the police once gathered there got to understand that the soldiers had also gathered at the Bisho Military Base which would then explain why they refused to carry out Gqozo's order to go and disrupt the meeting.

&#9;So Mr Chairman, the evidence by Mr Luwana which seeks possibly to have us conclude that we must accept that the refusal by the army to carry out the instruction by Gqozo was political in the sense that it led to him stepping down but we must not say that the conduct of the police was political. Now your Worship this would ...(indistinct), honestly.

&#9;What is clear, Mr Chairman, from the evidence is that the army people joined or at least associated themselves with what the police had started. Mr Luwana has told us, Mr Chairman, that there were chants to the effect that down with Commissioner Ngoya in his presence by junior officers. Now that on it's own Mr Chairman speaks volumes about the general mood of the meeting and the underlying intention which was to manifest itself as the day progressed. Mr Chairman, Gqozo it is common cause resigned that particular evening. Now Mr Chairman, the opponents of this application have not even touched that aspect as to whether the Commission should regard this as a coincidence. Pure simple coincidence. Well surely, Mr Chairman, they couldn't do so because there is no such coincidence.

&#9;Your Worship, the question of the questioning of the officers Mr Chairman, we're dealing here with human beings like myself and Mr Mapoma next to me. We are seated in a meeting, people are being brought in, what would have been expected would happen that people in the meeting would keep quiet and do nothing for the rest of that night? Surely not?

Now the question is maybe after the hearing that Gqozo had stepped down, nothing further should have been done but Mr Chairman that is to oversimplify the issue of - your Worship we know that the events that occurred in Boputhatswana where the soldiers believed that they had overthrow Mangope only for certain other soldiers to regroup and round up the mutineers and that could not succeed. So Mr Chairman, what I'm saying here is that one who has got to understand that we are dealing in this matter with people who are essentially part of the armed forces of a country so they know how the armed forces functioned. You may believe this and in fact the opposite would happen so in any event, Mr Chairman, no letter was presented to this meeting under the hand of Brigadier Gqozo to the effect that he had resigned, that's one issue. No radio announcement by Brigadier Gqozo in person to the effect that "I'm resigning" or "I have resigned" was published at all. He never appeared on T.V. to say "I've resigned" so that the people of Ciskei could confirm this for themselves. At most there was an allegation to the effect that he had phoned Pik Botha to advise him of his intention to resign. So Mr Chairman, it would be expected too much to suppose that the police should have dispersed at about 7 in the afternoon or in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Or in fact until the meeting the next day in the stadium?

MR OBOSE: Yes, yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Which Gqozo had told them he would attend and address?

MR OBOSE: Yes Mr Chairman, hence the issue had to be carried to the stage that everyone had to be convinced that that is in fact so.

&#9;Mr Chairman, on the other requirement of full disclosure, Mr Chairman there has been full disclosure by the applicants. They have disclosed with regard to their participation in the meeting. Mr Chairman the issue this matter occurred in 1994 in the event it appeared that people had forgotten things, that can be understood. But the issue Mr Chairman is whether the events relevant to this application have been disclosed and Mr Chairman I'll submit that that requirement has been satisfied. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nompozolo, any submissions?

MR NOMPOZOLO IN ARGUMENT: Yes thank you Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Chairman, I'll start with the question of disclosure and non-disclosure. I submit Mr Chairman with respect, out of all the applicants there are two applicants who disclosed what they did and what happened. It is Mr Toto and Sibuqashe. Now if one looks at their evidence, Mr Chairman, they disclosed everything as they saw it happening and on their own evidence Mr Chairman, nothing suggested that there was something political. All I say is that slogans were chanted and also freedom songs were sung but there was at no stage where it was said that look, our aim is to overthrow Brigadier Gqozo. They are saying it was said that the people were interested in the their pensions, the people were interested in the question of the monies which have been misappropriated by their officers. Now it becomes very clear that even if ...(indistinct) this notion of Brigadier Gqozo resigning, from the evidence as a whole, that was never communicated to Brigadier Gqozo. Now how on earth can it be said that A wants B to do this but yet B is not told? Therefore on the question of this being a political, this having a political motive, I submit Mr Chairman with respect, it does not meet any of the means test in the sense that chanting of slogans and singing of freedom songs, it's a daily thing, which happens every day. At times it does not have any meaning. The policemen, Mr Chairman, never addressed a question of Brigadier Gqozo resigning. All they addressed were their pensions. All they addressed was their future and it cannot be said that they were having a political motive. Coming to the question of the resignation of Brigadier Gqozo. Brigadier Gqozo, Mr Chairman, did not resign because the police wanted him to resign. I am saying that Mr Chairman because firstly that was never communicated to him.

&#9;Secondly, he resigned after he has communicated with the army but is it that he was communicating with the army? He was saying "army, go and assist so and so." Now the army said no, the concerns the police are having are the same concerns we are having. We want to know about our pension.

&#9;Now Mr Chairman, the police had sent somebody to discuss the pension with Brigadier Gqozo, Mr Nokala. The army has not sent anyone. All Brigadier Gqozo is doing is saying the concerns of the police must be addressed. He doesn't know that the police don't want him, that was never communicated to him and amongst the policemen who were in the hall, Mr Chairman, there is not a single policeman who says we won't leave this hall unless Brigadier Gqozo has resigned. None. There is no evidence to that effect. All that was there was "down with Brigadier Gqozo." Understandably so because they believed that their pensions, they can get them from Brigadier Gqozo, which was not the case and the fact that, Mr Chairman, they demand from the Commissioner of Police to disclose their pensions. It shows how short sighted they were, to think that the commissioner is the one who is handling the funds whereas in truth and reality it was the Minister of Finance. 

&#9;Now arrangements were made, Mr Chairman, for them to see the Minister of Finance although it has not materialised. Now it is very clear Mr Chairman from the evidence led that there was nothing like a coup planned by the police and also there was nothing that was agreed to, that it's going to be a programme of action for the day. 

&#9;Now the other issue Mr Chairman is the issue of whether there was a violation of the rights of the victims. It is clear Mr Chairman from the evidence of Toto and Sibuqashe and other witnesses that the officers were taken against their will. The officers in the hall were detained against their will and Mr Chairman it would be a great mistake to think that people, with respect, are in the hall and yet what is happening in the hall is not communicated to them like that, look we can only release you guys after Brigadier Gqozo has resigned. There was no such talk. 

CHAIRPERSON: Was the pension monies paid out to the police?

MR NOMPOZOLO: I'm sorry Mr Chair?

CHAIRPERSON: The pension monies, were the monies paid out to the police?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, all we know from the evidence is that the money which was allegedly held by the officers in particular Nqoya was withdrawn and paid out to the police the following day and they left the stadium without taking care of other people's interests. These are people with a political motive yet they leave the stadium and people were so disillusioned, they said there they are, they are only looking after their interests. So it is very clear, Mr Chairman, that these people never had any political motive. Had Nqoya came back, Mr Chairman, we would get a clear picture. When Nqoya has been taken back to the college, it is not said, he is not asked what is happening. All they're doing, they're humiliating him. Now, how is it political? How is it political related? And, if they wanted to achieve an objective of Gqozo resigning, Gqozo had already resigned when Mr Sawuti, Mr Adoni were brought there and when they arrived there they are asked about the monies. Subsequent to that they are charged.

CHAIRPERSON: When was it clear to them that Gqozo had resigned? Was it during the course of the night or when was it ...(indistinct) that Gqozo is now off the scene?

MR NOMPOZOLO: It was at the time Mr Chairman when Inspector Nkwenkwe went to Brigadier Gqozo and Brigadier Gqozo said "look, you've disappointed me and the soldiers have disappointed me, I'm all by myself now, I have already resigned, I have spoken to Pik Botha." Now there is evidence Mr Chairman that one of the policemen on TV said we have overthrown Gqozo or Gqozo has resigned and that clearly shows that they believed in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Or the one that was interviewed?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Or that one believed in that, the one who was interviewed. Moreover, Mr Chairman, Nkwenkwe had told them already that he has phoned Pik Botha, he has resigned and Mr Chairman, after that they still continue asking people about monies. That would be expected of people who want somebody to resign, was then to go to the key position. If those people had committed a coup as they claim, they would go to the key position, amongst others, they would go to the radio station to announce to the nation that we did this, this is the situation and it would be expected of them, Mr Chairman, to at least have a plan that after he has resigned we to do A,B,C. They don't have a plan, all they do, they go to the stadium, they are told that their monies are ready. They leave everything now, they go to their monies, those are the people with a political motive? I submit Mr Chairman with respect there was no political motive. Lastly Mr Chairman ...(intervention)

ADV BOSMAN: Before you take your last point Mr Nompozolo can you just assist me here. At the time when Brigadier Nqoya said that he was going to see Brigadier Gqozo, the meeting knew about it, was there any evidence to suggest that he was asked to convey to Gqozo that they wanted him to resign?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you counsel. The situation is, the evidence is to the effect that when Luwana went to Nqoya and said that Brigadier Gqozo wants to see you, he announced it and he said to them give me your grievances, I'm going to take them to Brigadier Gqozo and their grievances, Mr Chairman, were pensions and their future. So there is no evidence that Nqoya was told that Brigadier Gqozo must resign. It was so easy for them to do that, to say he must resign because they were not going to communicate with him directly. 

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't they want him at the meeting, wasn't that the purpose?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes Mr Chairman and the evidence is that they wanted him in the meeting to explain their pensions and their future. There is no evidence that they wanted him to come and resign in the meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Well isn't that what Mr Mfene was saying?

MR NOMPOZOLO: He was saying ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: If he's - once he is there he is there and he's in their power. They wouldn't release him, they wouldn't allow him to go until they had reached what they intended to reach?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes Mr Chairman but Mr Chairman with respect, Mr Mfene goes to Brigadier Gqozo, Brigadier Gqozo says "I've resigned".

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: He does not take him to the meeting to convince the meeting that here he is, he is sent to fetch Brigadier Gqozo, he was not sent to say anything to Brigadier Gqozo other than fetching him. He does not do that. 

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but Gqozo then promises, he says "look, I'll be addressing the nation tomorrow at the stadium, I'll be confirming this" and then Nkwenkwe goes back and he says to the meeting, "look, that man has resigned."

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: "He'll be having a meeting tomorrow in the stadium".

MR NOMPOZOLO: Yes Mr Chairman, but now the issue is that despite what Nkwenkwe said, they still continue to violate other people's rights. Instead of going to the street joyous and all that and taking key positions to make it upon that what they have achieved they're protected, they don't do that, they stay in the hall. Instead all they do they send people to fetch some other people and they don't say to those people "people, we want you to be with us now because we have achieved this." They say "look tell us about the money, tell us about your girlfriend, tell us about this." Now, that is no political objective at all.

&#9;Lastly, Mr Chairman, I ask the Committee to recommend, the Commission to recommend to the TRC, Mr Chairman, that the victims I'm representing were victims of gross human violations. Therefore I ask, Mr Chairman, that the applicants have failed the test and as such their applications should be turned down.

NO FURTHER ARGUMENT BY MR NOMPOZOLO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Collett have you got any submissions?

MS COLLETT IN ARGUMENT: Just a few Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Chairman, the Act is quite clear, the Truth and Reconciliation Act, it's quite clear that acts must be committed in pursuance of a political objective and that political objective must be disclosed and must be viable and must be made known to the Committee. Now the applicants would have this Committee believe that what they did on that evening was political. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that what they were doing was initially supposed to be political. Let's assume that they were asking, wanting Brigadier Gqozo to stand down. Let's assume that they caused Brigadier Gqozo to step down. The fact of the matter is that as early as 6 o'clock that evening it was communicated with them by one of their own that Brigadier Gqozo had told him that he had stepped down. In addition to that the interim administration in the form of Jurgens, Goosen and Vienke visited them and told them to disperse.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that appointed, when was the interim administration appointed?

MS COLLETT: It hasn't come up from the evidence but that very evening the arrangement between Pik Botha as I understand it was that the interim administration was in the wings ready to take over the minute Brigadier Gqozo stepped down, that interim administration was already in being. 

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the night of the 22nd and the morning of the 23rd? What was their statement?

MS COLLETT: Sorry, I never heard?

CHAIRPERSON: The night of the 22nd and the morning of the 23rd March 1994, what was the status of these individuals, Goosen, Jurgens and Vienke?

MS COLLETT: They were already the interim administration, as a matter of fact it was announced on the 8 o'clock news that evening with Brigadier Gqozo's stepping down that the interim administration had taken control and if Mr Chairman, if you can pick up from the evidence of the applicants they were told they're in charge now, in other words the interim administration, Gqozo had stepped down, please they must now disperse for that reason. That was after Nkwenkwe had gone back and told them that Brigadier Gqozo had said he'd stepped down. But it went further than that because one of the people from amongst those police was actually interviewed on the television that evening and by implication and by logical deduction, they must have known that Gqozo had stood down and they must have had a belief in that because it was confirmed on the TV that they were happy, they were happy with the fact that they had stood down. 

&#9;Here's the question that needs to be answered. Let's assume that they did have all the political motives in the world that they wanted Gqozo to stand down and it was a show of force that they were displaying at the college. The question is and let's assume that they wanted to go to the meeting the next morning to hear what Gqozo had to say, the question is why did they then do what they did. Why did they kidnap people, violate the liberty of people, violate the dignity of people, hold them against their will at the police college until the early hours of the morning. There cannot be any political motivation for that at all. 

&#9;Even if this Committee should find and I submit that there is very little evidence to support it, but even if this Committee should find that they had a political objective, that political objective must have ended when they had received confirmation.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but that is the rub, what was that, what was the confirmation. You're gathered in a hall, you are surrounding yourself with armed guards, you're keeping the rest of the world out, particularly the stability unit from South Africa, you're sitting there, you have been struggling to get hold of the Commissioner, you eventually get hold of him, you sent people to Gqozo, Gqozo says "yes, I'm going but I'll speak to tomorrow, I'll address you at the meeting, so when was the confirmation that he had finally resigned?

MS COLLETT: If that was the only thing that was present, if that was the only piece of evidence that was here that Gqozo had told them he had stood down ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS COLLETT: That would have been one thing, but it wasn't. It wasn't for sure.

CHAIRPERSON: What else was it?

MS COLLETT: There was Jurgens, there was Vienke, there was Goosen who went to them on two occasions ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS COLLETT: On two occasions to say to them please disburse, there was the T.V. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Now was it unreasonable to consolidate and keep their position until the next day, until the meeting at the stadium?

MS COLLETT: Let's assume that it wasn't unreasonable, let's assume it was quite reasonable for them to keep their position. Was it reasonable for them to deprive the persons of their freedom, was it reasonable of them to humiliate them, was it reasonable of them to kidnap innocent civilians and put them in the hall? Let's assume that they wanted the confirmation the next morning. All they had to do was stage a sitting in the hall or have a party or sing freedom songs all night. Was it reasonable for them to commit the crimes which they did and I submit not.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're saying that they should have frozen the entire operation?

MS COLLETT: What operation, Mr Chairman, with respect, what operation was it that they were freezing?

CHAIRPERSON: Collecting these officers, bringing them in, consolidating their own position?

MS COLLETT: Yes but Mr Chairman, with respect, the reason they advanced for collecting the officers was because they wanted to show a unified front to Gqozo. Now if that was the case, why (i) did they collect only certain officers, (ii) did they wait until 2 o'clock in the morning to collect some officers, (iii) did they submit those officers to humiliation amongst other things, they kept Nqoya's wife and child there the entire night, what was the purpose of that?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS COLLETT: There was no purpose, I do not concede by any means that they had a political objective but I'm saying that should this Committee find that they did by virtue of the fact that they sang freedom songs and whatever, I'm saying that there's no justification for the criminal offences that they committed, none at all, because on their own version the reasons that they wanted those persons there was to show a unified front. If that was the case then the unified front that the continued to show until the next morning would have been having those officers in the hall drinking tea. I don't know, singing freedom songs, dancing, throwing a party, whatever. But to subject them to lack of freedom of movement, an invasion of their privacy, deprivation of their dignity, all the violations which were entrenched in the then Ciskei 

constitution in any event and in the interim constitution was nothing tantamount to criminal violations. There's no political justification for that.

CHAIRPERSON: That is the whole purpose of an amnesty application?

MS COLLETT: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you committed a crime or a delict?

MS COLLETT: But there could have been no political justification for them at that stage, no political justification. The situation is, Mr Chairman, with respect, that a simple phone call to Pik Botha's office could have confirmed anything. Did anybody attempt to do that? No, nobody attempted it, no evidence to say that they tried to find out with any certainty that Gqozo had resigned or hadn't resigned and Mr Chairman, I would say that that's indicative of the fact that this meeting had absolutely nothing to do with politics. The singing of freedom songs and church songs was simply a method to while away the time. The bottom line here which is strengthened ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: To while away the time for what?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, maybe it would be instructive for the Committee to have a look at what was actually said on that 8 o'clock news broadcast or the press release that was given after Brigadier Gqozo resigned. There appears to have been some agreement although this is not evidence before this Committee, there appears to have been an agreement between Kempton Park and Brigadier Gqozo as to why he stood down. Yes, maybe the fact that he'd lost the support of the military and maybe the fact that the police looked like they were rowdy and staging an unsavoury gathering added to it, but it certainly didn't cause it. There were negotiations afoot all the time between Brigadier Gqozo and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, the then Pik Botha, regarding his standing down, his handing over the reins to the interim Committee. It didn't just happen overnight, there had been ongoing communications about this. It is coincidence that it happened on that evening. Maybe it was the final straw that broke the camel's back, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Well isn't that good enough?

MS COLLETT: Mr Chairman, I submit not and I submit that this Committee in coming to a decision will have to have a look at the press release regarding why Brigadier Gqozo stood down on that evening. I don't have a copy thereof but there were various reasons that were given but the gist of it is as I understood it that there had been an agreement that had been reached between the then South African Government and Brigadier Gqozo regarding the handing over to the interim committee, but the fact of the matter at the end of the day Mr Chairman is the actions of the policemen the next morning when they went to the stadium, the big political revelation that they wanted in simply running off to get their money, clinches that for the victims.

CHAIRPERSON: Well what else do you expect? They called upon, they say that your money is at the college, you should collect your money at the college, now what must they do?

MS COLLETT: But the fact of the matter is they wanted the confirmation that Brigadier Gqozo had stood down.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the evidence is that he never turned up.

MS COLLETT: The fact of the matter is to this day they still haven't received that confirmation so why do they believe it? Because they've heard it on the TV, they've heard it through the media, that's why they believe it. The very way they'd heard it that evening. Mr Chairman, I submit that there's sufficient evidence before this Committee to show that on that evening there was no political motive. Yes, they were probably happy as was two thirds of Ciskei, I'm sure, that Brigadier Gqozo had stood down but the point of this meeting was, the point of this meeting was "where's our money and what's our position in the future" and they would ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And none of them was interested in getting rid of Mr Gqozo?

MS COLLETT: I'm not saying that.

CHAIRPERSON: They were all happy to have him governing?

MS COLLETT: As I say, two thirds if not more of Ciskei was interested in Brigadier Gqozo standing down but just because we sing freedom songs and we say "down with Gqozo" did that necessarily mean that we've got this political objective to remove him? I submit that you have to go a little further than that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's their evidence.

MS COLLETT: We have to go a little further than that. That is not quite the evidence, not quite the evidence. They sang those songs ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's what Mr Mfene tells us, he tells us that that was the objective.

MS COLLETT: Yes. That was the objective according to him but I submit that there's no objective there.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you suggesting that we must reject his evidence?

MS COLLETT: I'm suggesting, Mr Chairman, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes on what grounds?

MS COLLETT: That the evidence of Mr Mfene should be viewed against the evidence of the other applicants. Nobody really knew what was going on. Everybody joined in the freedom songs because they enjoyed singing them. Then we've got the evidence of Toto Nshikashe who quite clearly says, Nshikashe's words were "we wanted to sit there and fight for our demands of money."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well what's wrong with that?

MS COLLETT: Nothing, but that just shows that there's probably an alternative to a political objective.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I mean this was, Ms Collett, I mean really, we've got to be realistic. This was not a matter where there was only one complaint, this was in fact that is probably why there was this opposition to Brigadier Gqozo at that time because people had all these complaints and is it surprising that at a gathering of that nature all of these things would have happened?

MS COLLETT: Whilst I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that they shouldn't have raised their other concerns and complaints about the money, about the pensions, about promotions, everything?

MS COLLETT: Whilst I hear what you're saying, Mr Chairman, the fact of the matter is did they have a political objective in kidnapping, depriving the liberty, invading privacy and subjecting persons to an invasion of their dignity on that evening? And I submit not. They could have left those people out of it all together because they weren't there voluntarily and anybody would have known that because Nqoya stayed with Gqozo, he didn't go back, that's the evidence, he didn't go back because there was a fear for his safety. Just assume it was political, why did they have to go and fetch them? The only reason they fetched those officers and subjected them to the humiliation that they did was because and this is the other side of the coin, Gqozo had stepped down, "now we're free what we want to do" - that's the other side. Is that not possibly what happened? Gqozo has now stepped down, take a look Mr Chairman, with respect, those officers that were called in to account were called in after that 6 o'clock when Nkwenkwe knew or had communicated that Gqozo had stood down, most of them were called late evening, they talk about 10 o'clock past, 2 o'clock in the morning. They were all called there. Is the other side of the coin not, Gqozo had stood down, now we're free we can do what we want to do, we can call in all those puppets of Gqozo and they must come and account, this is our court, this is our kangaroo court, they must come and account now. Is that not the other side of the coin? Is that the other side, is that not probable?

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we've got evidence before us which explains their conduct. Are you suggesting we must reject the evidence?

MS COLLETT: No, I'm suggesting, Mr Chairman, with respect, that we shouldn't take an armchair approach when it comes to this. If they had wanted the officers to be there, to be a unified front towards Gqozo, why didn't they fetch them earlier on in the day, why did they wait till two o'clock in the morning?

CHAIRPERSON: So you mean if they had fetched them earlier you wouldn't have had a problem?

MS COLLETT: I wouldn't have had a problem with that. I wouldn't have had one problem with their version, their version is we needed the officers, this is the version of Mfene, we wanted the officers there to show a unified front against Gqozo. Good idea, fantastic idea. But why do it once there's talk of Gqozo having stood down, why wait? Let's exclude that, why wait until the early hours of the next morning to fetch half of them? Why? How can that be unified? They'd been missing for the last twelve hours, why not leave them in their beds? Who is going to miss one or two officers along the line? But that's not what happened. They went and dragged them out of their beds, fetched them, fetched their wives and children and brought them to the police college at a time when it didn't matter. If they had wanted to show this unified front they should have shown a unified front right from the beginning, they should have rounded up those officers in the afternoon already when they had the plan.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes hadn't they done that?

MS COLLETT: No, with respect Mr Chairman, they didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Haven't they been bringing these people in from time to time?

MS COLLETT: No, Mr Chairman with respect, certain officers were there, Oosthuizen, Sims, Bongashe, they were readily available.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, precisely.

MS COLLETT: They were readily available.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they not officers ...(intervention)

MS COLLETT: They were there, they were prevented from leaving.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS COLLETT: But we're talking about the other ones, there were only a very few officers there, the rest of them were rounded up in the evening and the people say as an allegation was made against them, they were rounded up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes so are you agreeing that there were officers present at all relevant times in this hall?

MS COLLETT: There were officers present because they happened to be there.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS COLLETT: But the fact of the matter is that's where the idea of the unified front falls flat. Mr Chairman, I have no further submissions except to ask that the wife and the child and Commissioner Nqoya be declared - be recommended that they be declared victims of gross human violations.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you of course realise that that goes by violation of human rights, it's only committed with a political objective.

MS COLLETT: That's if you find there was a political objective, obviously.

NO FURTHER ARGUMENT BY MS COLLETT

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Mapoma, any submissions?

MR MAPOMA IN ARGUMENT: Yes Chairperson.

&#9;Chairperson, I would like to start off by saying that the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute, Mr Mapoma. Mr Nompozolo, in the normal course of events you wouldn't make any further submissions in the matter but do you necessarily want to stay and listen to the rest of the addresses or not?

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you. I'll be grateful if I can be released, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NOMPOZOLO: May I be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no thank you very much for your assistance Mr Nompozolo.

MR NOMPOZOLO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, thanks. Chairperson, it is almost common cause at this stage of the hearings that there are people who were held hostage after they were kidnapped from their places of stay by a group of police officials who were on rampage if I can put it that way on that day and in a way it is common cause, Chairperson, that these acts were committed in violation of human rights of those who fell victim of those actions and I want to express my sympathy to those who fell victim of that situation and would like to remind Chairperson that these are some of the manifestations of how ugly our past has been in South Africa. Some people died. We find situations where amnesty gets granted to people who killed others, people who committed gruesome acts against others, hence the amnesty proceedings, hence the amnesty laws.

&#9;Now to come to the issues, Chairperson, I would ask this Committee to be reminded when looking into this particular matter of the history of our country in particular the Ciskei part of South Africa during 1994 prior to the election of the democratic government and in particular during those days when this matter was dealt with. It is common cause, Chairperson, that during those times there was no free political activities going on in the Ciskei under the rule of Brigadier Gqozo then and Chairperson, we're dealing here with the applicants, the leaders of whom have shown this Committee that at that time they were members of the police and civil rights union which is abbreviated as Popcru. It is common cause, Chairperson, that Popcru was a union which united police and prison warders and that union was an affiliate of the Congress of South African Trade Unions which Congress of South African Trade Unions was ally of the African National Congress hence the so called tripartite alliance and there was fierce struggle in the Ciskei between the alliance and Brigadier Gqozo then. 

&#9;Chairperson, it must be remembered they have said, the applicants, that under those circumstances, as Popcru members, they were operating underground during that period. That in itself, Chairperson, shows the lack of political activity going on in this region then. It must be known Chairperson, at that period the whole country had free political activities, Popcru was operating overboard anywhere in the country except for Ciskei, hence during then, these members of Popcru it looks clandestinely hijacked a meeting of police officials. It is understandable Chairperson, I'll submit, that those times it would not be possible for them to just declare loudly that they want Gqozo resign. The circumstances as they were then did compel that meetings of this nature be hijacked for this purpose. 

&#9;Now I would like us, Chairperson, it has been said by applicants that their political objective was to topple or to cause Brigadier Gqozo to step down hence what they did. I would ask the Committee to consider, Chairperson, the provisions of Section 20, sub-section 3 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act and consider in particular, Chairperson, the criteria that I've set out there in determining as to whether an act is an act associated with a political objective as mentioned in that act. Amongst the criteria to be considered there, Chairperson, is the proportionality of what was being done there and the motive.

&#9;I submit Chairperson, that the kidnapping of senior police officials and holding them hostage is proportional to the intended objective which is said to have been the head of State then. It is my submission, Sir, because those were the senior officers who were perceived by the applicants to be going hand in hand with the head of State. We're dealing with perceptions, it must be noted, Chairperson, perceptions not necessarily facts. It may well be notable fact that these senior police officers were going hand in hand with Brigadier Gqozo but perceptions were there and I submit those perceptions are reasonable in the circumstances and that being the case Chairperson, it is my considered submission and view, Sir, that the applicants have satisfied the requirements of Section 20, sub-section - I'm mean of Section 20 of the Promotion of National Unity and Reconciliation Act and I would recommend, Chairperson, that the Committee consider granting the applicants amnesty. I would recommend further, Chairperson, that the Committee consider referring the victims of this particular act to the Reparation and Rehabilitation Committee as victims. Thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER ARGUMENT BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Do our records reflect the full details of all these victims?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, they do appear in the bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

&#9;Yes Mr Obose, have you got any reply?

MR OBOSE: I have nothing, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that concludes this matter. We will take time to consider the matter and to prepare our decision and once the decision is available we will notify the interested parties and furnish them with the decision once available. We will therefore reserve the decision.

&#9;Mr Mapoma, does that conclude the roll?

MR MAPOMA: Yes Chairperson, that concludes the roll for this sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well thank you very much. Under those 

circumstances we are going to adjourn the proceedings, but before I do so, can I express our thanks to all those people who have made it possible for us to have this hearing over the last few days in this venue. It normally takes the efforts of quite a number of people to be able to have a hearing of this nature and we are always grateful for the assistance that is forthcoming. To assist us in doing that, we have a large contingent of staff that normally assist us in doing so and we express our thanks to them as well as to the proprietors of this venue for making it possible for us to have our hearing here, for the security, the police, those members of the public who have come to listen to the proceedings, it is still an important aspect of our work that it should be held in public so that the public can share in what is forthcoming from these proceedings. Our interpreters for their assistance, the caterers and to the legal representatives, Mr Nompozolo in his absence, we've already expressed our thanks to him. Ms Collett and Mr Obose as well as Mr Mapoma. We appreciate your assistance and we thank you for that and then finally to my colleagues on the panel with me, a word of thanks for your assistance. We will now adjourn the proceedings.

HEARING ADJOURNS

