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ON RESUMPTION: 9TH JULY 1999 - DAY 5
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 ON RESUMPTION: 9TH JULY 1999 - DAY 5

CHAIRPERSON: Good morning, it is for the record, Friday, the 9th of July 1999. We are continuing with the amnesty application of Mr Mavuso. We have arranged for various reasons to only sit in the morning session today and in fact it was for that reason that we had indicated that we would be starting earlier this morning. There have apparently been some or other difficulty on the part of getting the applicant to the venue, some or other delay on the part of the Correctional Services, we are not quite sure at this point what the difficulty was, we will look into that and ascertain what the cause for the delay was. Ms Mtanga, who is the next witness?

MS MTANGA: The next witness Chairperson, is Jabulani Kunene.

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, before Mr Kunene takes the oath, he asked me to inform the Committee that he is a diabetic and for that purposes, he is required to more than usually relieve himself and if he makes such a request to the Committee, if he could just be indulged in that regard. I see he has also asked, he has to take in water and so, but that is there, that is not a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. And I assume he has some or other difficulty with his eyes as well?

MR BOTHA: I am not sure about that, if the Committee could just clarify that with Mr Kunene, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Kunene, good morning.

MR KUNENE: Good morning.

CHAIRPERSON: The lawyer has just explained to us what your medical condition is. Have you got a problem with your eyes? let me tell you why I am asking you, do you need to have the dark glasses on?

MR KUNENE: There is no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right, thank you. But we have noted the rest of the difficulties. I am going to administer the oath to you, would you then please just give your full names for the record.

MR KUNENE: Jabulani Augustan Kunene.

JABULANI AUGUSTAN KUNENE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Ms Mtanga?

EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Kunene, what is your occupation?

MR KUNENE: I am an Interpreter at the Magistrate's court at Pongola.

MS MTANGA: Is this the same occupation you held in 1993?

MR KUNENE: Yes, that is so.

MS MTANGA: Were you politically affiliated in 1993, Mr Kunene?

MR KUNENE: I was a follower, supporter.

MS MTANGA: Of which organisation?

MR KUNENE: IFP.

MS MTANGA: Are you still a follower of the IFP? When did you join, when did you join the IFP, Mr Kunene?

MR KUNENE: Early in 1994, before the election.

MS MTANGA: Mr Kunene, do you know the applicant, Mr Mavuso?

MR KUNENE: Yes, I know him very well.

MS MTANGA: How do you know him?

MR KUNENE: I knew him from the 22nd of November 1993.

MS MTANGA: How did you come to know him?

MR KUNENE: On that day I have just referred to, he was an accused in this case, now he was there requesting a bail from the Magistrate's court.

MS MTANGA: That is the only way you got to know Mr Mavuso?

MR KUNENE: Very true.

MS MTANGA: Did you know the deceased, Mr Mike Mcetywa?

MR KUNENE: Very well, I knew him very well.

MS MTANGA: Can you briefly tell this Court how you knew Mr Mcetywa?

MR KUNENE: I knew Mr Mcetywa when he worked for Vunesa Cortin Joinery, when he first worked for Vunesa Cortin.

MS MTANGA: When was this?

MR KUNENE: He was one of the soccer club coaches and I knew him at that time also, in fact a manager.

MS MTANGA: You have heard the evidence of the applicant that you played a role in the murder of Mr Mike Mcetywa and you had attended a meeting at Wimpy where you had planned an ordered him to kill Mr Mcetywa, what do you say to this?

MR KUNENE: Honourable Commission, that is a blue lie, in fact, he is lying through his teeth. If I may elaborate, let me first start to say if that indeed was the case, from where he claims it was, this whole web was woven, I would not have ...

MS MTANGA: I am sorry Chairperson, I didn't get the interpretation. Mr Kunene, will you slow down a bit, because the Interpreters are having a difficulty interpreting.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, won't you just repeat your explaining why the applicant is lying. Tell us why, why is he lying.

MR KUNENE: He said, the applicant that is, they left from Itshelejuba where they planned this plot, to kill the late. Subsequently they went to Pongola at Wimpy Bar, where they met with us according to his version, meanwhile we had no idea about this plot that was planned. Did we ever have an idea, that I question as to the plot or the planning of the plot.

MS MTANGA: Mr Kunene, I don't understand your answer because the evidence of the applicant is that your names were not mentioned at all in court and you were not known to have been involved in this, because he had kept that away, he did not give that evidence in court. What I am asking you is, do you deny the fact that he says that you were at a meeting at Wimpy where he had planned with other implicated people, to murder Mr Mike Mcetywa.

MR KUNENE: I was never there.

ADV GCABASHE : I am sorry Mr Kunene, can I just take you back to the answer just before this, I didn't quite understand it, but I will tell you what I wrote down. I wrote down something to the effect that the applicant said that they left from Itshelejuba where they planned the killing or where they had this plot, cooked up this plot. Subsequently they went to Pongola Wimpy, where they met you, the group, meanwhile you had no idea of this plot. That is what doesn't quite make sense to me. Are you saying that - what did you know about this plot if they planned it at Itshelejuba, just help me understand my last sentence.

MR KUNENE: I don't know anything.

ADV GCABASHE : Not ...

MR KUNENE: I did not know anything.

ADV DE JAGER: Perhaps we should go back then, the previous answer, you started off by saying "that is a blue lie, he is lying through his teeth. If that was the case, I would not have ..." and that was as far as the interpretation went. What do you want to say there, "if that was the case, I would not have ..."?

MR KUNENE: I finished off the sentence by saying if I had some idea with regards to this, what would have made me, or what would have made them to plan a plot in Itshelejuba, from there I wait for them at Wimpy, whereas they have already planned the plot in Itshelejuba.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mtanga, have you got any other questions?

MS MTANGA: Mr Kunene, did you know the political affiliation of Mr Mike Mcetywa?

MR KUNENE: I knew that afterwards.

MS MTANGA: So you never knew that Mr Mike Mcetywa was an ANC member at the time of his death?

MR KUNENE: I knew that.

MS MTANGA: No but you just said you knew later?

MR KUNENE: I mean afterwards, when we were involved in the soccer issues.

MS MTANGA: When did you learn about Mr Mike Mcetywa’s political affiliations?

MR KUNENE: Just before he was killed, a few years before he was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what did you say, you said "just before"?

INTERPRETER: A few years before.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS MTANGA: Did you consider Mike Mcetywa your political rival?

MR KUNENE: He was not a problem and a rival so to speak in as far as politics were concerned.

MS MTANGA: You have heard the evidence of the applicant and the people he mentioned as having been with you, planning the death of Mr Mcetywa. Now, I want you to tell this Committee how do you know these people, I will start with Amos Mtungwa and tell us how do you know him?

MR KUNENE: Yes, I do know Amos Mtungwa. As the witnesses that have brought evidence before this Commission, addressed to him as an honourable member of Parliament, we also referred to him as an honourable member, though we knew that he is Amos Mtungwa. We knew Amos Mtungwa as an honourable one, because that stemmed from the fact that he is a member of Parliament, though we knew his name, that he was Amos Mtungwa.

MS MTANGA: Mr Mtungwa has admitted before the Committee that there were IFP meetings held at Wimpy. Did you ever attend any of those meetings where Mr Amos Mtungwa attended?

MR KUNENE: Not even once did I show myself there.

MS MTANGA: Do you know Velaphi Khumalo?

MR KUNENE: Yes, I know him.

MS MTANGA: Would you tell the Committee how do you know Mr Velaphi Khumalo?

MR KUNENE: The first time I got to know Velaphi Khumalo, was in 1995. The reason being he had a taxi that travelled between Pongola and Durban. At the time, I had a visitor or a guest that was supposed to catch a taxi from Pongola to Durban and he was running that business himself, or he was driving the taxi himself, the Venture that is, and that is the same taxi that I took my aunt to, that is when I got to know Velaphi Khumalo.

MS MTANGA: Do you know Sam Khumalo?

MR KUNENE: Yes, I do know him, Sam Khumalo that is.

MS MTANGA: And how do you know Sam Khumalo?

MR KUNENE: From childhood, when he was still a student until he started work or started working.

MS MTANGA: Started working as what, Mr Kunene?

MR KUNENE: Working for Health, for the State for the Health Department.

MS MTANGA: And you have known Mr Sam Khumalo since?

MR KUNENE: Yes.

MS MTANGA: And are you aware that Mr Khumalo is in the taxi business?

MR KUNENE: Yes, I know that he is one of them in the taxi industry in Pongola.

MS MTANGA: Do you know Mr Malebele Buthelezi and how do you know him if you know him?

MR KUNENE: I know him afterwards, I think he was about the last out of the ones that I have mentioned, that I got to know. I can't even explain whether he was from the farms or from the suburbs, but he, as I said he was about the last one that I got to know out of the ones that I have already made mention of.

MS MTANGA: Can you tell us more or less when did you get to know Mr Buthelezi?

MR KUNENE: It must have been around 1996, if my memory serves me well.

MS MTANGA: Do you know Mr Philemon Mtungwa?

MR KUNENE: I don't know Philemon, although I do remember seeing him at the Magistrate's court in Pongola.

MS MTANGA: Can you recall when you had seen him at the Magistrate's court?

MR KUNENE: It was when the applicant had been arrested.

MS MTANGA: The evidence of the applicant, Mr Kunene, has been that there were political reasons for killing Mr Mike Mcetywa, he was considered a political rival by the IFP. I would like to put to you that - I would want your opinion as an IFP follower at that time, did you consider Mr Mcetywa as a political rivalry?

MR KUNENE: At the time when he was murdered, he was not at all a rivalry or a problem in as far as politics were concerned.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. 

MR KUNENE: And we were quite used to each other.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Adv Gcabashe?

ADV GCABASHE : I thought I also heard you say that he used to talk to all and sundry?

MR KUNENE: He will talk to just about anybody. He will talk to just about anyone as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prinsloo, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Kunene, were you an Interpreter only in Pongola or did you work as an Interpreter at other places such as Vryheid for example?

MR KUNENE: I was an Interpreter ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, just hold on, just give the Afrikaans Interpreter an opportunity to fix up whatever problem they seem to be experiencing.

INTERPRETER: Can you hear me?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, all right, we seem to be back on line. Mr Kunene, were you an Interpreter only at Pongola, or what was the position?

MR KUNENE: I started as an Interpreter at Madudu in 1975. Madudu is an area near Pongola, it is about 25 kilometres away from Pongola.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Kunene, you were however well informed regarding that environment, that being Pongola and Vryheid and Pietersburg and Piet Retief, are you familiar with that area, not as an Interpreter but as a person?

MR KUNENE: Though I cannot say for certain that I know the towns very well, I do go to these towns to buy something.

MR PRINSLOO: And you probably know many of the policemen who visit the courts where you work as an Interpreter?

MR KUNENE: I wouldn't know all the policemen.

MR PRINSLOO: And are you familiar with the police from Pongola?

MR KUNENE: Yes, I do know them.

MR PRINSLOO: The deceased in this matter, according to the evidence, was an ANC leader. Was this known to you on the 22nd of November 1993, that is when the deceased was shot? Did you know this?

MR KUNENE: Which day?

MR PRINSLOO: Was it known to you before the death of the deceased, that he was an ANC leader in that area, in Pongola?

MR KUNENE: I only knew that he was a member of the ANC.

MR PRINSLOO: Did you know Krushev Ndandwene, or Krush as some have referred to him?

MR KUNENE: Let me just clarify something before I answer, the person you are referring to, his name is Krushev, his surname is Ndandwene and the answer is that I knew him as a member of the ANC. He is me relative, he is my cousin.

MR PRINSLOO: Ernst Tsele, did you know him?

MR KUNENE: Ernst Tsele, I knew him very well, he is the boy who used to fix televisions for us (indistinct) township.

MR PRINSLOO: And Ernst, did you know that he was a member of the ANC at that stage, in November 1993?

MR KUNENE: Yes, I knew that.

MR PRINSLOO: And Philemon Mtungwa, did you see him for the first time in Pongola, in the court, with the appearance of the applicant, Mr Mavuso, is that your evidence?

MR KUNENE: I was seeing him for the first time and even today, if I can see him, I cannot recognise him as Philemon Mtungwa because it was my first time seeing him in court.

MR PRINSLOO: Under which circumstances did you see Philemon Mtungwa on that day with the appearance of the applicant in the court in Pongola?

MR KUNENE: He entered the court and he took the stand or the witness box, because he was a witness in the case of the applicant.

MR PRINSLOO: Was he a witness for or against the applicant, I did not hear you quite well? Was this in the bail application that he testified on behalf of or against the applicant?

MR KUNENE: Honourable Commission, this happened in 1993, right now, I don't have records as to what he was testifying in court.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what you are saying is that he appeared as a witness in the court where you were interpreting, would that be correct?

MR KUNENE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Prinsloo?

MR PRINSLOO: So that was the first time that you saw Philemon Mtungwa what he appeared as a witness in the court, where the applicant was applying for bail, is that correct?

MR KUNENE: Yes, that is so.

MR PRINSLOO: Velaphi Khumalo, is that the brother of Sam Khumalo?

MR KUNENE: They are brothers simply because of the surnames being similar, not that they are blood related.

MR PRINSLOO: And Velaphi Khumalo is a resident of Pongola, just the same as Sam Khumalo, is that correct?

MR KUNENE: Yes, they are residing at Ndwani near Pongola.

MR PRINSLOO: You are an old resident of Pongola and a court Interpreter in everything?

MR KUNENE: Yes, I am a resident at Ndwani and I am an Interpreter at Pongola Magistrate's court.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Velaphi Khumalo who has already given evidence here was also a taxi owner and he must be well known in the Pongola area?

MR KUNENE: I wouldn't say on behalf of the community of Pongola that they know Velaphi very well, but what I can say is that all taxi owners, they are well known at Pongola.

MR PRINSLOO: The appearance of the applicant in the court during the bail application, you have already heard because you attended the proceedings, that there was a great number of IFP supporters present during that hearing, is that correct?

MR KUNENE: Yes, there were many people in court that day, there were IFP supporters and ANC supporters and they were all together in court.

MR PRINSLOO: You, did you have any conversation with the applicant upon his appearance in court, apart from being his Interpreter?

MR KUNENE: There is no time to speak to an accused besides interpreting, because when an accused appears in court, you simply interpret and then they take the accused back to the cell or custody.

MR PRINSLOO: You have heard the evidence of the applicant that you, along with the others who have been mentioned and I will repeat their names, met in the Wimpy. It was you, Sam Khumalo, Velaphi Khumalo, Mr Amos Mtungwa, Philemon Mtungwa, Malebele Buthelezi and Sandla Nlangamandla. What do you say about that, that the applicant maintains that you were present at the meeting at the Wimpy, can you give any reason for that?

MR KUNENE: Mr Prinsloo and the Honourable Committee, I did mention initially that if he is including myself as one of the group which was in the Wimpy, he is telling blue lies.

MR PRINSLOO: But it doesn't end there Mr Kunene, the witness gave further evidence that you were one of the persons who gathered at the Pongola Road, who arrived there in the Hi-Ace and I want to put it to you that the applicant and I will put the version to you like this, the applicant arrived at Pongola along with Sam Khumalo and Sandla Nlangamandla in a Skyline vehicle, a white Skyline vehicle, and that Sam Khumalo disembarked there in Pongola and that the applicant and Sandla Nlangamandla drove out onto the Pongola/Nongoma Road, do you know anything about that?

MR KUNENE: I don't know anything about that.

MR PRINSLOO: And then after that, Sam Khumalo who drove the Hi-Ace minibus, accompanied by Velaphi Khumalo, yourself, Malebele Buthelezi and the persons who have been mentioned, arrived there on the road and the applicant along with Sandla Nlangamandla sat there in the Hi-Ace with the rest of you and held a discussion surrounding the killing of the deceased, what do you say about that?

MR KUNENE: I do not know anything about that. Maybe if he can tell this Commission as to when it happened, on what day, what time. As he had already mentioned that I am an Interpreter in court, I want to know when this whole thing happened, what time of the day and what day of the week.

MR PRINSLOO: We will get to that. Furthermore it has been said that the deceased, if he was on his way to Vryheid, you would have to get out of the area very quickly if you killed him in Vryheid, because the Vryheid Police would make use of a helicopter, did you say something to that effect?

MR KUNENE: I have never said anything like that, because I was never present. Besides, Vryheid is about 130 something kilometres away from Pongola, how would I have such an information as to how the police in Vryheid operate?

MR PRINSLOO: How would the applicant have wanted to involve you, how would he have known that you were an Interpreter in court at the time that that discussion took place before the arrest?

MR BIZOS: Speaking for myself, I don't understand that question at all and I don't know whether it is fair to the witness at all, even though I am not acting for him, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Kunene, do you understand the question?

MR KUNENE: I do not quite follow the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Please repeat it Mr Prinsloo.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Kunene, for which reason would the applicant want to implicate you as a court Interpreter, to be an accomplice in a matter of a murder because the applicant has given evidence that you are a court Interpreter, so why would he want to implicate you as a court Interpreter to be a fellow conspirator?

MR KUNENE: It surprises me as well, because I only knew the applicant on the 22nd in court, but maybe some people have told him that I am a member of IFP so that he use my name as well, so that there are more IFP members who are implicated, maybe he will get amnesty or he will stand a good chance of getting amnesty, but this is just my version, this is just what I am thinking, I don't know.

MR PRINSLOO: And you can think of no other reason why he would want to implicate you in this matter?

MR KUNENE: No, I wouldn't comment any further, the truth is known to the applicant as to why he will implicate me.

MR PRINSLOO: That being what? What is the truth which is known to the applicant as to why he would want to implicate you?

MR KUNENE: The truth is known to the applicant as to why he is implicating me.

MR PRINSLOO: I beg your pardon Chairperson, but what is that truth that you are referring to?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, I must just interrupt here. I don't understand quite well, the answer or the reason why Mr Kunene is being implicated is known to the applicant, or at least the truth about that, and Mr Kunene has already given evidence that he does not know. But that the truth or the reason for that is known to the applicant, so he has answered the question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it would appear that this is his way of saying that it is only the applicant himself who will know why he is implicating Mr Kunene falsely.

MR PRINSLOO: But with respect Honourable Chairperson, I am giving the applicant the opportunity to explain why he would be implicated in this matter and if he then does not wish to explain why, I will leave it at that, with the exception of saying that the applicant would know why he is implicating him, but the witness does not want to give any reason as to why he thinks this may be happening.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it would appear to me as if he has taken it as far as he possibly could, because after him, only the applicant would know the real reason why. I don't know if you can take this any further.

MR PRINSLOO: Just a moment's indulgence please. Mr Kunene, you have heard the evidence in this matter that there was a meeting in the Wimpy and the following day was the meeting in the Hi-Ace and the day after that the deceased was killed, you heard that, and we all know that the deceased was murdered on the 22nd and according to the applicant, he says that this took place in the afternoon. He puts it in Zulu, the day upon which this meeting took place in the Hi-Act on the Pongola/Nongoma Road. Does that assist you?

MR KUNENE: It doesn't assist me because I still don't know what day.

MR PRINSLOO: Are you referring to the day of the week?

MR KUNENE: Yes.

MR PRINSLOO: This person, Ernst or I beg your pardon, this person Krushev Ndandwene, do you know what sort of hairstyle he had during November 1993?

MR KUNENE: I wouldn't remember.

MR PRINSLOO: Yesterday there was cross-examination from Mr Bizos that he had a great bushy hairstyle, was there any such recollection?

MR KUNENE: Yes, I do remember that he had an afro, a big afro.

MR PRINSLOO: Mr Chairperson, I am just trying to determine upon which day the 22nd of November was, unfortunately we don't have a calendar to determine that, for 1993.

MR BIZOS: The day of the murder was a Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got that Mr Prinsloo, it was a Monday.

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Kunene, thank you for the assistance which I received regarding the particular day, so the day before that date would have been a Sunday, that would have been when the Pongola/Nongoma Road meeting took place? What do you say about that?

MR KUNENE: Where did the applicant meet me? Maybe I should answer this way, I was not in a Hi-Ace, I was at my house at Ndwani.

MR PRINSLOO: How can you say that, that on the Sunday, that would be the 21st of November, you were at home at Ndwani? How can you remember that, as far back as 1993?

MR KUNENE: I always stay at home at Ndwani on weekends, the reason being if I was still drinking at the time, I would say I was in a shebeen, but since I am a sugar diabetic case, I am always at home.

MR PRINSLOO: And on the day of the Wimpy, you know what the sequence of the dates is, where were you when it is alleged that you would have been at the Wimpy Bar?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairperson, perhaps it could be put somewhat clearer to the witness as to what day the 19th was, it has been referred to as a Friday, but I don't know if the witness has understood that fully.

CHAIRPERSON: The Wimpy, the Wimpy meeting, would that have taken place on the Saturday, the 20th because there was a sequence of three days preceding the event?

MR PRINSLOO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Kunene, the meeting in the Wimpy would then have taken place on the Saturday.

MR KUNENE: I don't know anything about that meeting.

MR PRINSLOO: I put it to you Mr Kunene, that the applicant met you at the Wimpy on that day and that there was a discussion there and that the following day, the meeting in the Hi-Ace took place and that in this case, you did indeed conspire to kill the deceased? You have already denied this, I have no further questions, thank you Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Prinsloo. Mr Bizos, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS: I have very few questions, Mr Chairman. I just have a couple of questions for clarification, Mr Kunene. You have told us that the, that you knew the prominent, the honourable member of the KwaZulu legislature as an IFP leader?

MR KUNENE: That is so.

MR BIZOS: Did you also know Mr Israel Mongumuzi Dlamini as the Chairman of the IFP in Pongola?

MR KUNENE: Yes, that is so.

MR BIZOS: And you were an IFP supporter?

MR KUNENE: Yes, that is so.

MR BIZOS: Now, I don't want to go through this whole list of names that you have been through, I merely want to ask a general question, other than Mr Dlamini whom you knew as the Chairman of the IFP, did you know any of these others, the taxi drivers, the people that you knew by sight whose names were put to you, and the others, did you know any of the others as prominent IFP leaders or prominent IFP supporters?

MR KUNENE: To tell the truth as I have already explained that I was a follower of the IFP, therefore I wouldn't for certain say how prominent they were and what part they were taking as members, because some of them, I wouldn't even know if they were fully members of the IFP or just supporters or followers.

MR BIZOS: Well, perhaps I can help you because even the Chairman, even the Chairman of the IFP says in an affidavit which is before the Commission that only two of all the people mentioned here, did he, the Chairman, know as members of the IFP, they were Mr Amos Mtungwa, that is the honourable one that you have mentioned and Mr Sam Khumalo. He knew none of the others as members of the IFP and like you, he says that he had never heard of Philemon Mtungwa and Velaphi Khumalo, nevermind as leading members of the IFP, he didn't know them at all. Would you confirm the affidavit of the Chairman of the IFP in Pongola, as far as you know?

MR KUNENE: I will say yes because it may happen or it may be laying on the fact that in which year they have joined as members of the IFP. Therefore if he doesn't know them, then it means probably they never joined under his authority.

MR BIZOS: Yes, we are concerned with November 1993 and that is when he was Chairman at the time. At the time of the murder of the deceased, he was Chairman, that is the period we are speaking about.

MR KUNENE: I would like Mr Bizos to address his questions to me, not, he mustn't ask questions from me on behalf of others.

MR BIZOS: I will try and work that out, but nevermind, nevermind. Did you know that Mr Rasta Mncwango was a high profile member of the Pan Africanist Congress at that time, November ...

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, if I may just interrupt, I think the evidence is that he was a member, I don't recall a high profile member.

MR BIZOS: The question was was he a high profile member of the PAC, it is for the witness to answer Mr Chairman? Did you know him as a high profile member of the PAC?

MR KUNENE: In the area PAC is not dominant at all.

MR BIZOS: Well, it is not a question of whether the PAC was dominant, was he prominent even if he was the only member or a member with two or three followers? Some organisations were described as having three members and a fax machine, it may have been that in this situation, but did you know him as a PAC member?

MR KUNENE: It is difficult for one who is staying in my area and doing the kind of job that I am doing and also knowing what each and everyone is affiliated to.

MR BIZOS: I have no further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Bizos. Mr Van der Heyde?

MR VAN DER HEYDE: No questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER HEYDE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Van der Walt?

MR VAN DER WALT: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Botha?

MR BOTHA: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOTHA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shubane?

MR SHUBANE: Thank you Chairperson, no questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR SHUBANE

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Van der Walt?

MS VAN DER WALT: No questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV DE JAGER: Can you tell us perhaps, do you remember when he got bail, was it before the Supreme Court hearing or how long after his arrest did the applicant get bail?

MR KUNENE: He didn't receive bail from the Magistrate's court at Pongola.

ADV DE JAGER: And you weren't present at his trial in the High Court?

MR KUNENE: Would you please repeat that question? His case was referred to the High Court, that was the last time I saw him.

ADV DE JAGER: Yes, you were not present in the High Court when his trial took place there?

MR KUNENE: No, I wasn't present.

ADV DE JAGER: You told us you knew that the deceased was a member of the ANC, do you remember that?

MR KUNENE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: If you knew him to be a member, did you know any other people being members of the ANC?

MR KUNENE: Yes, there were other people who were mentioned after the deceased and others who were not mentioned.

ADV DE JAGER: But before the deceased, before the murder, you already knew that the deceased was a member of the ANC, isn't that so?

MR KUNENE: Yes, that is so.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you know any, of any other members before he died?

MR KUNENE: Many.

ADV DE JAGER: Now if they were many then, who would be their leader in the vicinity?

MR KUNENE: To tell the truth, I wouldn't know who held what position. But what I do remember about the deceased is that after he had left his work, that is when he became a prominent member of the ANC.

ADV DE JAGER: So at the time of his death, he was indeed a prominent member of the ANC?

MR KUNENE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And you say there were many members of the ANC, did they become a real strong political opposition to the IFP?

MR KUNENE: It was before the ANC was firm on the ground at that time, but there were members.

ADV DE JAGER: And were they growing at that time?

MR KUNENE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they becoming a threat because of their growing, for the IFP?

MR KUNENE: I wouldn't be sure because there were no conflicts, we were staying peacefully together at that time and I was a follower of the IFP. We didn't experience any problems between the IFP and the ANC.

ADV DE JAGER: Was there a taxi conflict at the time?

MR KUNENE: I do remember a conflict concerning taxi's and buses and the community, but it didn't happen for a long time. It only took about a week I think if I am not mistaken.

ADV DE JAGER: And were there any unrest because of the taxi boycott at the time? Did they throw stones at the taxi's?

MR KUNENE: No, I do not remember any incident like this, but I am working a little bit far from the area, therefore I don't know, I don't have full information, as to what extent it went.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you remember how long before the murder, the taxi conflict was settled?

MR KUNENE: No, I cannot remember that.

ADV DE JAGER: Can you remember whether it was still carrying on at the time of the murder?

MR KUNENE: If I remember very well, I think they had already resolved the boycott, or the issue around the taxi and the buses.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Sandla, did you know him?

MR KUNENE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he an office bearer of the IFP?

MR KUNENE: I don't know, I don't have full information about that.

ADV DE JAGER: Was he murdered at a later stage?

MR KUNENE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know why he was murdered?

MR KUNENE: I have no idea at all.

ADV DE JAGER: You don't know whether it was political or not?

MR KUNENE: No idea.

ADV DE JAGER: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, questions?

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Kunene, you are excused, thank you very much.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, as per our agreement with Mr Martin Botha, this will be the last witness that I will call today and I believe this should end the proceedings for today, until a further date.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, is this the last witness you say?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there no other witnesses available?

MS MTANGA: There are people to be called, we have further witnesses who will appear and give evidence, but in terms of the agreement that we had with Mr Martin Botha, that we would call one person, because he requested that we finish by eleven o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I mean with his client. Has he got an interest in the other witnesses?

MR BOTHA: Mr Chairman, I have an interest with regards to Mr Buthelezi and Mr Mncwango who is still to be called. I approached the Committee this morning and explained the problem which I have and I was under the impression that the Committee was in any case thinking of sitting only until about, I think it is almost eleven o'clock, perhaps I misunderstood the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I thought you had said that you are concerned about your client's position. Who else do you represent apart from Mr Kunene?

MR BOTHA: Mr Mncwango and Mr Buthelezi, Your Honour.

CHAIRPERSON: Are they to be called next or what is the position?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, we cannot call Mr Buthelezi and Mr Mncwango because Mr Martin Botha who appears for them, has requested the Committee that he be excused and the only person that we can call now is Sam Khumalo and the question was raised as to how long can we be with him, but he is the next person who can give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BIZOS: I may say I was approached whether I would give an undertaking that I would be finished with Sam Khumalo this morning if he was called, and I was not able to give that undertaking Mr Chairman, he is a witness that I would take much longer with than I did with the previous witness, having regard to the other matters that he has been mentioned in connection with. If we are to adjourn to an uncertain date, I don't know how fair it would be to him, to start and continue with cross-examination later, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, are there only these three people remaining?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, on the list of the implicated people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Is there likely to be any other witnesses in this matter?

MS MTANGA: Yes Chairperson, at a later stage we will be calling Mr Krushev Ndandwene to give evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: So it appears as if there would be four further witnesses?

MS MTANGA: That is so Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Well, we have to get this matter done, hopefully sooner than later. Well, under those circumstances we wouldn't be able to proceed. We will then adjourn the proceedings and I assume that it was indicated to me that there was a prospect of this matter being re-enrolled at the beginning of October. Won't you please just ascertain that and make sure that we do make that arrangement early enough so that we are able to reconvene and get this matter finalised?

MS MTANGA: I will do so Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well, unfortunately we are not able to proceed beyond this point at this stage. We will in the circumstances be compelled to postpone the matter. At this point we do not yet have the fixed date for the continuation of the matter, but that will be arranged amongst the parties, but as for now, the entire proceedings would then be adjourned at this point, sine die, we are adjourned.

HEARING ADJOURNS SINE DIE

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