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PALM RIDGE [TRC]
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 &#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;26TH JANUARY 1999

NAME:&#9;RICHARD DLAMINI

APPLICATION NO: AM 6132/97

MATTER:&#9;BOIPATONG MASSACRE

DAY:&#9;&#9;7

______________________________________________________

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson. The next applicant is Richard Dlamini, number 15 on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlamini, what language are you going to speak? Will you please give us your full names.

RICHARD MPAGAMESENE DLAMINI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You are required to raise your voice a little bit because you are not talking to me alone, you are talking to everyone in this room. You've talk and speak in such a way that even a person who is at the back there can hear you, do you understand?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;I want you to identify your signature on the Form 1 amnesty application, on page 213. 

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: This document has been shown to you and you've indicated to me there is one mistake on this document and that in paragraph 11(b), is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: When was the first time for you to become aware that there was an attack to be launched on Boipatong?

MR DLAMINI: On the 17th.

MR STRYDOM: Prior to the 17th of June 1992, did you attend any meeting where anything in regard to a possible attack on Boipatong was discussed?

MR DLAMINI: I was never present in such a meeting.

MR STRYDOM: Now to the extent that there's a reference to a meeting on the 10th when an order was given, is that what is not in order in that paragraph?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: To the extent that there is a reference to the 10th of June when an order was given, is that the wrong part of that paragraph?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon, what is a mistake?

MR STRYDOM: The reference to the 10th. The witness said the first time he became aware of the attack was on the 17th. The witness said that the first time he became aware of the attack was on the 17th and he did not go to any meeting on the 10th.

&#9;I also want to show you the answer to paragraph 10(a) ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Could the speaker please move closer to the mike, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: I also want to show you the answer to paragraph 10(a), given in a separate annexure on page 214. Now the answer has been translated to you on a previous occasion, do you agree with the contents of that paragraph?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I agree.

MR STRYDOM: Can you in your own words say why did you go to Boipatong and form part of the attack on Boipatong?

MR DLAMINI: When I went to Boipatong, the intention was to face the comrades. We wanted to drive them away, the comrades who were guarding the place.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you want to chase the comrades away?

MR DLAMINI: We were unable to do anything in the township. Even our relatives who were residing there in the townships were harassed.

MR STRYDOM: Then I want to show you the request for further particulars on page 216 and your answers on page 218. These questions and answers were translated to you, do you stand by the answers?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with them.

MR STRYDOM: And then I want to refer you to your affidavit, and I will start with your signature on page 223. Is that your signature?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that's my signature

MR STRYDOM: Do you agree with the contents of that affidavit?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with the contents.

MR STRYDOM: Can you just briefly state what you did in Boipatong during the night of the attack.

MR DLAMINI: On that night my job was to stab the people there, these comrades. That was my job.

MR STRYDOM: After you have entered Boipatong, did the comrades run away?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, they ran away.

MR STRYDOM: Where did they run to?

MR DLAMINI: They were scattered all over the township and we kept on chasing them.

MR STRYDOM: Did you go into houses?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, we went into the houses.

MR STRYDOM: Did you stab people in houses?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, some of the comrades were in the shack. We stabbed them. Themba shot some of them.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from comrades which one would expect to be relatively young male people, did you attack any other residents of Boipatong?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, there was another man that I attacked.

MR STRYDOM: Approximately how many people did you stab during the attack?

MR DLAMINI: About four of them.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if the people that you stabbed died?

MR DLAMINI: I am not certain whether they died or not but I wanted to make sure that if I stab a person he or she would just die.

MR STRYDOM: Did you hear any shots being fired in Boipatong?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see anyone of the attackers specifically shoot any person?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I saw a person from the group of people that I was with.

MR STRYDOM: Who did you see shooting?

MR DLAMINI: The first person to shoot at a comrade was Damani, the second one was Themba Mabote who was shooting in the shack.

MR STRYDOM: In your affidavit you make mention about another person in the hostel names Keswa, who is that person?

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, Mr Strydom, I didn't get the interpretation correctly, did he say he shot in a shack or in a house? Because I heard him say ...(Zulu).

MR DLAMINI: It was in the shack, the shack was in the yard.

MR STRYDOM: The next question was the reference there on page 222 of your affidavit, and I'm going to translate:

&#9;&#9;"I was informed by other residents in the hostel ..."

the name there is:

&#9;&#9;"... Keswa, to go and fetch a weapon."

This person, Keswa, what are his full names?

MR DLAMINI: I don't know his full names, I only know him as Xhoslele Zingene.

MR STRYDOM: Is that Victor Keswa or not?

MR DLAMINI: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: Is that Victor Keswa, also known as Getisi?

MR DLAMINI: No, that is not the one. That one is an old man, the one that you are talking about.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack in the hostel on the following day, were you also responsible to burn some of the goods that was taken from Boipatong?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I was.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember who gave you the order to do that or was it out of your own initiative?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I can still remember.

MR STRYDOM: Who told you?

MR DLAMINI: Damarra came to my house and I was asleep, he woke me up.

MR STRYDOM: So approximately what time would you say did you start burning goods?

MR DLAMINI: Though I cannot remember the time, I think it was round about eight, between eight and nine.

MR STRYDOM: In the morning?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, in the morning.

MR STRYDOM: During the attack, did you see any police or military vehicles in Boipatong?

MR DLAMINI: No, I saw no cars or police.

MR STRYDOM: As far as your knowledge goes, did the police or the Defence Force assist before or during the attack?

MR DLAMINI: No, I know nothing about the assistance before the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any police or military vehicles after the attack?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Before the attack, did you attend any meeting where Mr Themba Khosa said anything about the possibility of an attack on any township in the Vaal Triangle?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was never present in such a meeting.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack, did you see Mr Themba Khosa and Humphrey Ndlovu at the hostel?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I saw him.

MR STRYDOM: Did Mr Themba Khosa address a meeting on the 18th of the 19th of June 1992?

MR DLAMINI: On the 18th I cannot remember seeing him addressing a meeting, I only remember on the 19th he addressed a meeting.

MR STRYDOM: Did you attend that meeting?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did attend the meeting.

MR STRYDOM: Did Mr Khosa give any instructions in regard to the burning of loot or bloody clothes?

MR DLAMINI: He never gave that instruction, it's myself who issued that instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was this?

MR DLAMINI: At Kwamadala hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you are the one who issued the order that items be burnt, I'm asking you at what stage was this?

MR DLAMINI: It was in the morning of the 18th. Damarra gave me the instruction to tell the people to burn the goods that were taken from Boipatong and that is what I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And how did you do this?

MR DLAMINI: I went through the left-hand side. I was shouting and telling the people that if someone brought something from Boipatong, that should be burnt.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know the policeman that was at the hearing the other day, Peens?

MR DLAMINI: No, I saw him for the very first time here on Friday. I saw them, the two of them for the first time on Friday.

MR STRYDOM: You also refer then to Rooikop, is that right?

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: You also refer to the other policeman, his surname is Greeff but his nickname is Rooikop?

MR DLAMINI: It's what I heard. As he was standing here, I heard that he was Rooikop, but I do not know him.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a person by the name of Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I know him, I know Matanzima.

MR STRYDOM: When was the first time for you to meet this person?

MR DLAMINI: Though I cannot remember well, but that was after the attack, months after the attack.

MR STRYDOM: When were you arrested for the Boipatong incident?

MR DLAMINI: I cannot remember the month but I was the last person to be arrested.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: I have not questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Miss Tanzer?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: You say that you met Mr Nosenga after the attack on Boipatong, what was noticeable about Mr Nosenga that you remember him?

MR DLAMINI: The reason for me to remember Matanzima, we were sitting at the hostel playing some game called Mlabalala, a guy called Vusi and Spongulwana. They were washing the cars and they said there was a young man who was speaking Sotho, and I enquired what is it that he was saying there. 

&#9;They called us to come and listen to him. We went to that place. When we arrived there they communicated in Sotho with him. They later interpreted to us, they told us that he said he was sent there by the ANC to enquire as how to plant the bombs inside the hostel ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Would you please just slow down so that we can make some notes. What are the names of these boys that you say came to you?

MR DLAMINI: It was Vusi and Spongulwana. 

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR DLAMINI: Myself and the others took him from that place ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, I didn't catch the name of the person, you said someone and others?

MR DLAMINI: Which person?

MR LAX: Maybe you said I, it just cut off on the interpretation. Just repeat your answer please.

MR DLAMINI: I said two gentlemen came, Vusi and Pongulwana. They came as we were playing a game. They came to tell us that there was a young man from the township who was there at the place where the two gentlemen were washing the cars. 

&#9;We asked them what was he saying, what was it that the young man was saying. They did not tell us anything but they said we must come with them to listen to this gentleman. 

&#9;We went to that place and they asked him questions in Sotho and they later interpreted to us because we did not understand the Sotho language. He said he was sent by the African National Congress to come and inspect the place inside the hostel, as to how he can plant the bombs.

&#9;We later took him - we then took him to the IFP Committee. We handed them over to that committee. They communicated with him and we left him there. After some time we heard that he admitted to everything that was said by the two gentlemen. 

&#9;Fortunately he came at a time where there was going to be a conference in Ulundi. He was then taken - the people who were going to the conference took him with to Ulundi to the conference. The matters was reported, the others were told about him. I was not there at that conference.

&#9;They brought him back again. He stayed there inside the hostel. As to when did he leave the hostel I do not know. He was still young at the time and when I saw him here he was a bit older.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned that you took him to the committee of the IFP in the hostel.

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who in particular did you take him to?

MR DLAMINI: It was Thembankosi Khumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS TANZER: To you your knowledge, Mr Dlamini, was Mr Nosenga only to talk Sotho, was he unable to communicate with yourselves?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: Well I put it to you that his Zulu is as good as your Zulu, that he will give evidence in Zulu and that he's not even a Sotho-speaking person.

MR DLAMINI: I don't know about that, you know about that. All I know is that he was speaking Sotho.

MS TANZER: Are you perhaps not mixing up Mr Nosenga with somebody else?

MR DLAMINI: No. I can see clearly and my mind works very well. I know that he is the person.

MS TANZER: Well what do you say about the fact that he can talk Zulu so fluently, that in fact he's communicating with the interpreters in Zulu and not in Sotho?

CHAIRPERSON: Well he's just answered you and he says he is not aware that he can speak Zulu as good as he does.

MS TANZER: Mr Dlamini, you've heard the evidence of your co-applicants so far, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: You've been present throughout these proceedings, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, it's only on the 18th where I was not present.

MS TANZER: You've heard me put Mr Nosenga's version to the other co-applicants regarding the events that led to the attack and the attack itself, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I heard you.

MS TANZER: Do you stand then by your denial that Mr Nosenga resided at the hostel prior to the attack and took, and participated in the attack on the night of the 17th of June?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I deny that.

MS TANZER: So it is not necessary for me to put to you Mr Nosenga's version, you remember the version and you deny it in its entirety, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: Can you tell me, what motive would you impugn upon Mr Nosenga for placing himself at the hostel when he was not at the hostel or for participating in the attack, when you claim he did not?

MR DLAMINI: I think this person is lying. He is a bit confused because of the sentence that he is serving. He's saying things that did not happen.

MS TANZER: I put it to you that insofar as Mr Nosenga's evidence contradicts yours, you are the person who is lying and Mr Nosenga is being open and honest with this Committee.

MR DLAMINI: I am not lying, I'm saying he is the one who is telling the lie. Where - you are representing him, that is why you are saying I am lying. I am saying he is the one who is telling a lie.

MS TANZER: I further put it to you that Mr Nosenga was at the Kwamadala hostel prior to the attack, that he did take part in the attack and that you and your co-applicants are for some reason covering up his existence at the hostel.

MR DLAMINI: The way you talk it looks like you were staying there at Kwamadala hostel, then it means in that case I was not staying there. You were the one who was staying there, because I'm telling you that Nosenga was not there and you insist that Nosenga was there. It looks like you are the one who was staying at Kwamadala hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, Mr Dlamini, what is intended to be put to you is that according to Matanzima Nosenga, he was staying at the hostel prior to the attack and that he was part of the attack, you've denied that.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I dispute that, he was not there and he was not present during the attack.

MS TANZER: Did you see any police presence in Boipatong on the night of the attack?

CHAIRPERSON: He has answered that question, he said "no".

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: You gave instructions that stolen items be burnt.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that was the instruction that I was given by Damarra.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you steal any good from Boipatong on the night of the attack?

MR DLAMINI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir. 

&#9;Mr Dlamini, I take it that the meeting or the conference that was in Ulundi, where Mr Nosenga was brought to, was the annual conference of the IFP, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And that annual conference is the one that is held in July's annually, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And that is the very conference which was held after the Boipatong attack?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: You say you were not there at the conference, you don't know what happened there, do you?

MR DLAMINI: I was not there, I did not go to the conference.

MR MAPOMA: Do you know what was said in the conference?

MR DLAMINI: No, I do not know because I was not present.

MR MAPOMA: Now, when Nosenga was speaking to you about his intention to plant bombs, did he tell you that he was present during the attack at Boipatong?

MR DLAMINI: No, he never mentioned that.

MR MAPOMA: Did you find out from him?

MR DLAMINI: No, we knew that he was not there.

MR MAPOMA: How did you know that he was not there?

MR DLAMINI: He came after the attack.

MR MAPOMA: How do you know that?

MR DLAMINI: I've already mentioned that I was there at Kwamadala hostel. Though I cannot be very sure about the month, I was still there, I was not yet arrested. The other co-applicants were already arrested at the time.

MR MAPOMA: No, Sir, what I want to be clear on is, you did not see Nosenga when he was arriving at the hostel, you were only told that there is a boy, or there is a young man by the name of Nosenga who says this and that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I was told.

CHAIRPERSON: What is being put to you is, do you know precisely when Nosenga arrived at the hostel.

MR DLAMINI: He came on that particular day when these two gentlemen called us.

MR MAPOMA: I have no further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Dlamini, when Mr Nosenga told you and the many people who were you, that he had been sent by the ANC to plant bombs in Kwamadala hostel, I understand from your evidence that he was giving you this information freely and voluntarily, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: I cannot say whether he was free to tell us because I was not the first person to see, he started speaking to these other guys. I just saw him for a very shot time.

MR BERGER: Well you were there ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Wait a minute. 

&#9;Did you just say that he appeared as if he was not mentally sane?

MR DLAMINI: He looked shocked, he seemed very shocked.

CHAIRPERSON: Please speak close so that the interpreter can interpret everything, because some of the things the interpreter is not interpreting.

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Nobody was threatening Mr Nosenga, nobody was doing anything to Mr Nosenga to make him talk, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: When I was there nothing happened. I don't know before that but when I was there with him nothing like that happened.

MR BERGER: And then after he had made this startling confession he was taken to the senior committee of the IFP in the hostel, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And he was left there in the hands of the senior committee?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Besides Mr Thembankosi Khumalo, who else was present when Mr Nosenga was left there?

MR DLAMINI: Thembankosi was in his house, there were other people in his house. He took him to the committee and I was not there at the time, but as we were taking him there, Thembankosi was in his house with his inmates.

MR BERGER: So when you said in your evidence earlier:

&#9;"We took Nosenga to the IFP Committee."

That's not correct, is it?

MR DLAMINI: It is true.

MR BERGER: No, you took Mr Nosenga to Mr Khumalo, Mr Khumalo took Mr Nosenga to his committee.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, Khumalo himself was the member of the committee.

MR BERGER: Now, how long after that was Mr Nosenga taken to Ulundi?

MR DLAMINI: Though I cannot remember very well, that took place some time ago. I think it was about a week or two and he was taken there.

MR BERGER: So what happened for that one or two-week period, between the time after Mr Nosenga was taken to Mr Khumalo and the time that he was taken to Ulundi, what happened to Mr Nosenga?

MR DLAMINI: Nothing happened.

MR BERGER: Did you see him during that one or two-week period?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I saw him inside the hostel.

MR BERGER: Walking around freely?

MR DLAMINI: I used to see him sitting in front of one room that was occupied by the group from the township. Most of the times he would be there.

MR BERGER: He was associating with other people in the hostel quite freely during that period?

MR DLAMINI: I can say so because he was staying with us inside the hostel.

MR BERGER: Is that the treatment that was usually meted out to ANC spies, they were accommodated in the hostel and allowed to move around freely?

MR DLAMINI: If the person would be there among us and be free, we would give him accommodation but if he would try to hide himself, we wouldn't help him by giving accommodation.

MR BERGER: At that stage you and none of the other hostel residents, besides the senior committee, knew what was going to happen to Mr Nosenga, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: No, we knew nothing.

MR BERGER: How do you know he was taken to Ulundi?

MR DLAMINI: A meeting was convened just before the trip to Ulundi and it was mentioned that he would be leaving with the people going to Ulundi.

MR BERGER: Who mentioned that?

MR DLAMINI: It was Mr Khumalo, Thembankosi Khumalo. He told us that this man would be taken with to Ulundi.

MR BERGER: Was this a meeting held in the stadium, a meeting of all the residents of the hostel?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: So there would have been hundreds and hundreds of people present when the announcement was made that Mr Nosenga is being taken to Ulundi?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, there was a large number of people when the meeting was held.

MR BERGER: Was Mr Mkhize at that meeting?

MR DLAMINI: I've already mentioned that my co-applicants were already arrested, he knows nothing about Nosenga.

MR BERGER: So the answer is, Mr Mkhize was not at that meeting?

MR DLAMINI: He was not present.

MR BERGER: Was Prince Vanana Zulu at that meeting?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he was present.

MR BERGER: How long had Mr Nosenga been at the hostel before he was taken to Mr Khumalo?

MR DLAMINI: I cannot lie, I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: Approximately?

MR DLAMINI: I cannot even estimate, I cannot remember.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga must have, on your version, must have come to the hostel almost immediately after the Boipatong attack, would that be right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: So would you say that is was public knowledge, everyone at the hostel knew Mr Nosenga, and everyone knew that Mr Nosenga was a man who had been sent by the ANC to plant bombs in the hostel?

MR DLAMINI: Other people who were with me in the hostel knew, except the people who were already arrested.

MR BERGER: What did Mr Khumalo say at that meeting was going to happen to Mr Nosenga in Ulundi, why was he being taken to Ulundi?

MR DLAMINI: Though he did not mention the reason, he first mentioned something about the truth, the truth that would be taken. And he later mentioned that even this young man who was there to plant the bombs would be taken with to Ulundi.

MR BERGER: Mr Nosenga wasn't going to conference as a delegate I take it, he was going to conference as an exhibit, am I right? He was going to be presented to the leaders at conference.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I think he was there as an exhibit from Kwamadala hostel.

MR BERGER: As an ANC spy who had been sent by the ANC to blow up the hostel.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And this conference in Ulundi was addressed by the top leadership of the IFP at the time, am I right, including Chief Mangasotho Buthelezi?

MR DLAMINI: Though I was not there, I think it was like that.

MR BERGER: Can you explain why Chief Buthelezi has said in the media that he knows nothing about this Mr Nosenga?

MR DLAMINI: Are you talking about the Buthelezi in the Committee or someone else?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Berger, the man wasn't at the meeting, how can he explain anything about what might have happened in Mr Buthelezi's mind or why he would deny something? He doesn't know whether the man was actually presented to him or not, it's not a fair question.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Lax, I will rephrase the question.

&#9;Who else besides Mr Khumalo and Mr Nosenga went to the conference at Ulundi?

MR DLAMINI: Will you please repeat the question?

MR BERGER: I'm talking about the delegation from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: What you are being asked is, apart from Nosenga and Mr Khumalo, who else went to Ulundi.

MR DLAMINI: The people who went to the conference, I heard that it was Vincent Khanyile, Vincent Khanyile was one of them and Prince Zulu was one of them too, Bazuka and the others, quite a number of people although I cannot remember the other names.

MR BERGER: Well I'd like you to think hard about who the people were who went to Ulundi. You were at a meeting ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, do you want him to give us all the names of the persons who went to Ulundi?

MR BERGER: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall the names of all the person who went to Ulundi?

MR BERGER: From Kwamadala.

MR DLAMINI: I've already said that I cannot remember the others.

MR SIBANYONI: Are there any of the people who are your co-applicants here, who went to Ulundi?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, it is Vincent Khanyile.

MR SIBANYONI: Is he the only one amongst the co-applicants?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, among my co-applicants he is the only one that I know did go to Ulundi.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Besides your co-applicants - well, are you saying that all your co-applicants besides Mr Vincent Khanyile were arrested at the time of the Ulundi conference?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, there are others with whom I was arrested. We were arrested in groups, we were not arrested all at once.

MR BERGER: Well let me ask you about Qambelani Buthelezi, Bhekinkosi Mkhize and Victor Mthembu, had they all been arrested by the time of the Ulundi conference?

MR DLAMINI: Buthelezi was already arrested, Mkhize as well, Victor was arrested together with myself.

MR BERGER: And Victor Mthembu never went to Ulundi to the conference?

MR DLAMINI: I cannot remember very well as to whether he attended the conference or not.

MR BERGER: And then after the conference, Mr Nosenga was brought back to the hostel.

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And what report-back did you receive from Mr Khumalo or any other delegate to the conference, as to what had happened in Ulundi in relation to Mr Nosenga?

MR DLAMINI: They did not tell me anything.

MR BERGER: What was the status then of Mr Nosenga? Here was a man who had come to plant bombs in the hostel, the allegation was important enough for him to be taken off to Ulundi to the national conference, this had been announced at a public meeting in the stadium, and he comes back to the hostel and there is no report-back to the hostel dwellers about what has been decided to be done with Mr Nosenga.

MR DLAMINI: It might as well be that something was said in my absence. Yes, that is possible, something may have been said to the residents.

MR BERGER: Well didn't you ask anyone about what happened to Nosenga in Ulundi, or what is his status now in the hostel, what are we to do with him? Did you ask anyone?

MR DLAMINI: No, I did not ask anyone.

MR BERGER: You were just happy to have him back in the hostel and he walked around freely?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I just looked at him as one of the residents at the hostel.

MR BERGER: I put it to you, Mr Dlamini, that your version about Mr Nosenga saying that he came to the hostel to plant bombs is absolute nonsense.

MR DLAMINI: No, I know that to be the truth.

MR BERGER: When you made your application for amnesty at page 211, 12 and 13, were you in prison?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR BERGER: This was February 1998.

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR BERGER: You were taken to the police station in Vereeniging to have your application attested, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And you were accompanied by Mr Nana Tshabangu who acted as your interpreter, am I correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: You have confirmed that the documents at pages 214 and 215 have been read to you and translated to you and you agree with the contents of those two pages, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: In that document you say, or you agree with the statement which says that:

&#9;&#9;"The attack was a warning to ANC supporters in Boipatong, not to support the Self Defence Units."

Do you agree with that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with that.

MR BERGER: The idea, you say, was to intimidate the residents of Boipatong in the same way as you had been intimidated, do you agree with that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: How were you going to intimidate the residents of Boipatong? How were you going to achieve that in the attack?

MR DLAMINI: To intimidate them would mean attacking them, nothing else.

MR BERGER: You also say that the political purpose of the attack on Boipatong was to teach Boipatong a lesson. How were you going to teach Boipatong a lesson, what were you going to do?

MR DLAMINI: The lesson is beating them up, nothing else.

MR BERGER: So who were you going to beat up?

MR DLAMINI: The comrades. Some fled but we managed to get hold of others.

MR BERGER: But how were you going to teach the residents of Boipatong a lesson. Leave aside the comrades, how were you going to teach the residents a lesson?

MR DLAMINI: Those who had not been attacked have learnt a lesson to the effect that we can beat them up, that is the lesson.

MR BERGER: So the purpose of the attack on Boipatong was to beat up all the residents of Boipatong, or as many of the residents as you could lay your hands on, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: That was not the case. It so happened but that was not the case.

MR BERGER: So the purpose was only to attack the Self Defence Units, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And by attacking the Self Defence Units, you were going to teach the people of Boipatong a lesson?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And this was your instruction before you left the hostel, only attack the Self Defence Units, we are not going to attack the people of Boipatong, that right?

MR DLAMINI: Even though that was not expressed as such, but I thought that when we went there we were looking for the boys who were burning people in the township.

MR BERGER: Well then how was it expressed at the meeting before you left, what were your instructions?

MR DLAMINI: At the meeting on the 17th if was said that the day has arrived, let us go now to Boipatong. Each one of us men were ordered to go and fetch our weapons, such as knopkierries. I was already armed. Only a few went back to their rooms, but most of them had already armed themselves.

MR BERGER: You did not attend any meeting prior to the 17th, at which the possibility of an attack on anybody, whether in Boipatong or anywhere else, was discussed, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: No, I did not attend any such meetings.

MR BERGER: There was no meeting at which you were present, where there was talk of attack at all, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And yet when the siren went off on the 17th of June 1992, you knew to go to the stadium with your weapon, why?

MR DLAMINI: I want you to understand this very well, Mr Berger, when this siren went off I was in another room where we were drinking and when I left on my way to the stadium I came across Kwesele Zingene(?) and he said I should go back to my room and arm myself.

MR BERGER: Who said that to you?

MR DLAMINI: It Kwesele Zingene Keswa.

MR BERGER: And the other residents who came, you don't know why they came out?

MR DLAMINI: On leaving their rooms, they were responding to the siren that was summoning us to the stadium, to the arena.

MR BERGER: So there was nothing said at the meeting of the 17th, about attacking the Self Defence Units, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: No, I didn't hear that.

MR BERGER: Now you say you entered Boipatong, and I'm reading from your affidavit at page 222, and you were chasing the SDUs.

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you say:

&#9;&#9;"They ran away and one ran into a house. There was a man who tried to run away and I stabbed him with a spear. That man jumped over a fence and he disappeared."

Now that man, was he an SDU member?

MR DLAMINI: Even though I would not be certain what he was, but I think so.

MR BERGER: So he was a young man?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct, he was a youth but he was not young.

MR BERGER: That's the first man you stabbed, correct?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you say:

&#9;&#9;"We continued. We got into a house. Themba was with me and there were children there who were crying."

Is that Themba Mabote?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: 

&#9;&#9;"I asked the child: 'where are your parents'?"

That is correct.

MR BERGER: Was that two young children?

MR DLAMINI: No, I saw only one, not two children.

MR BERGER: Well you said the children were crying, you say there was more than one child, so how many children were crying?

MR DLAMINI: Maybe you did not get me well, I did not say they were crying in this house, I am saying they were crying in houses. In the house that I entered I only found one child.

MR BERGER: Mr Dlamini, please listen to what you have confirmed under oath and confirmed again this morning. &#9;After this man has jumped over the fence and disappeared, this is what you say:

&#9;&#9;"We continued. We got into a house. Themba was with me. Children were crying there. I asked the child: "where is your parents'?"

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct, I did ask where the parents were but I was asking one child. Maybe you do not understand me quite well.

MR BERGER: And you say the children were not crying in that house, they were crying somewhere else?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And then you say:

&#9;&#9;"Boom, boom."

That is correct.

MR BERGER: What does that mean?

MR DLAMINI: That is a person's name.

MR BERGER: Is that the name of Thembiso Kubeka?

MR DLAMINI: Sthembiso Kubeka.

MR BERGER: And that is applicant number 18. He's one of your co-applicants, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Is he present today?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he is present.

MR BERGER: 

&#9;&#9;"He then stabbed the child with a spear."

Am I right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So you asked the child: "where are your parents?", and before the child could answer, Sthembiso Kubeka stabbed the child with a spear.

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Was the child a boy or a girl?

MR DLAMINI: I think it was a boy if I'm not mistaken.

MR BERGER: About how old?

MR DLAMINI: I don't want to attempt to lie, he was this high. I cannot tell his age.

MR BERGER: You indicate a very small child, a very small boy.

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Less than a metre high.

MR DLAMINI: I don't anything about metres, I don't want to tell you a lie.

MR BERGER: I'm just confirming what you've indicated in Court. Where did Sthembiso Kubeka stab this child, where on his body?

MR DLAMINI: I think he stabbed him at the back because the child was facing me. I think it was somewhere behind his back.

MR BERGER: How many times?

MR DLAMINI: I think it was once because when he stabbed him once the child cried and I fled.

MR BERGER: Then you go on - well, let me ask you, you couldn't have thought that this child was a member of an SDU, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: No, I did not think it like that.

MR BERGER: So there was absolutely no reason for this child to be stabbed?

MR DLAMINI: No, there was no reason. Had I thought about that, it would have been me who stabbed him.

MR BERGER: Why?

MR DLAMINI: It was a child. I was not stabbing children that young, I wanted all the people, the ones who were troublesome, burning people around, not children.

MR BERGER: Did you say anything to Sthembiso Kubeka?

MR DLAMINI: No, I did not say anything, there was no time for conversations really, we were in a hurry.

MR BERGER: Did you try to stop him? The child was between you and him, he was behind the child, you were in front of the child, you saw him lift up the spear, did you try and stop him from stabbing the child?

MR DLAMINI: I was talking to the child on my knees, I only heard the child crying and when I raised my head I saw this spear being pulled from the child.

MR BERGER: You actually saw the spear being pulled out of the child by Sthembiso Kubeka?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Then you go on:

&#9;&#9;"I stabbed another person, a man, with a spear in the vicinity of Shlube Street. I don't know what happened to that person. We then left the township and returned to the hostel."

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: According to your statement you stabbed two people, according to your evidence before this Committee you say you stabbed about four people, why didn't you mention the other two in your statement?

MR DLAMINI: Maybe the person who was interpreting did not get me well. I said, when we left the house in which we found the child, we found other people who were fleeing and we pursued them right into a certain house with a shack. We opened the shack and we stabbed them inside the shack. I don't know whether this is not written there.

MR BERGER: How many people did you stab in Boipatong?

MR DLAMINI: I estimated them to be four or five.

MR BERGER: Were you involved in any incident of violence concerning the people of Boipatong, before the attack of the 17th of June 1992?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR BERGER: So the people of Boipatong had not done anything to you personally, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR BERGER: I am right?

MR DLAMINI: ...(no English translation).

MR LAX: We're not getting any interpretation but he in fact saying that Mr Berger's speaking the truth.

INTERPRETER: I'm trying to rectify a mistake on the part of the applicant.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is the truth.

MR BERGER: And you had no family living in Boipatong, am I right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: So what then was your motive in participating in the attack?

MR DLAMINI: My motive was that the people from Boipatong had already killed our people and I too was not free to go to Boipatong to the shops.

MR BERGER: Are you able to point or to give the name of any person who was killed in Boipatong between January and June?

ADV SIGODI: Mr Berger, is it not common cause that people were killed in Boipatong and that was common knowledge to the people of Kwamadala?

MR BERGER: It's common cause, Advocate Sigodi, that a person was killed in Boipatong in January of 1992 and again on the 13th of June 1992.

ADV SIGODI: And that was common knowledge. I mean, isn't that evidence that we've been hearing so far, in that the people in Kwamadala hostel could not go to Boipatong, and there was this tension between the Kwamadala hostel ...(intervention)

MR BERGER: If it's as I've stated, yes, that is common cause.

ADV SIGODI: Yes.

MR BERGER: But we've been hearing evidence about people being killed every day, day by day and that is definitely not common cause.

CHAIRPERSON: I think what Advocate Sigodi is trying to put across to you is that there is no ...(indistinct), we now know, that two people were killed just shortly before the attack. We know that the residents of the hostel could not go to Boipatong, we know there was animosity, that is common cause.

MR BERGER: That is common cause.

CHAIRPERSON: Do we have to hear more about that? The record speaks for itself in this regard.

MR BERGER: I take your point, Chairperson.

&#9;So when you said in your evidence-in-chief:

&#9;"Even our relatives there were harassed."

... you were not speaking about your relatives, am I

right?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Would you agree with the evidence from one of your co-applicants, that the real problems were in townships such as Sharpeville and Sebokeng and that Boipatong was chosen as a target for the attack because it was closer, in fact very close to Kwamadala hostel, in stead of Sharpeville or Boipatong? Do you agree with that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, because Boipatong was nearer.

MR BERGER: When you say that your job was to stab the people, who gave you that job?

MR DLAMINI: I took it upon myself. Isn't it I had a spear?

MR BERGER: You were asked a question about who you saw firing and you answered that there were two people whom you saw, the one was Damarra and the other one was Themba Mabote, am I correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Why is it that every time an applicant is asked: "Who did you see shooting?", the answer is always Damarra Chonco and Themba Mabote?

MR DLAMINI: As far as I have concerned, I am talking about a person that I saw shooting. I saw this personally, this is not a hearsay. I saw Themba Mabote shooting. I was with him right inside the house.

MR BERGER: You've all been sitting here every day listening to the evidence, that you've moulded your versions so that they all say the same thing, you all say the same thing about what happened in Boipatong, who you saw shooting, haven't you discussed it with your co-applicants?

MR DLAMINI: No, we did not discuss this at all. I am talking here about people that I accompanied, people that I saw shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, is that a fair statement to put to this witness, if you have regard to his affidavit which was made before this hearing started, the further particulars?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, it's not only in this hearing ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) suggesting to him is that he's mentioning these two people because he's been sitting here, and yet is appears in his statement and it also appears in his affidavit.

MR BERGER: And it also appears in the statements and affidavits of his co-applicants. It's not only that sitting here, but ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Then you must put that specific point to him.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you and your co-applicants have conspired to put as far as possible a consistent version before this Committee, both in your applications and in your evidence?

MR DLAMINI: That is not the truth.

MR BERGER: Have you discussed your version at any stage with any of your co-applicants?

MR DLAMINI: Not at all.

MR BERGER: Isn't it so that the Keswa that you referred to at page 222 is indeed Mr Victor Keswa?

MR DLAMINI: I did say that is an older man whose name Xhoslele Zingene from Natal.

MR BERGER: Mr Dlamini, if there had been military vehicles or police vehicles in Boipatong during the attack, would you have seen them?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: You would not have missed them?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And when you left Boipatong after the attack, is it correct that you congregated in the field outside Boipatong, between Boipatong and the main road, Frikkie Meyer Boulevard?

MR DLAMINI: No, we did not gather on our way out, we were following one another. We were walking hastily in groups, one group was ahead of another etc., etc.

MR BERGER: Were you with Themba Mabote when you left Boipatong?

MR DLAMINI: No, he was no longer with me.

MR BERGER: Were you at the front of the attackers leaving Boipatong, were you in the middle or were you one of the last stragglers to leave Boipatong?

MR DLAMINI: No, I was in the middle.

MR BERGER: Now, in your application at page 212, you were asked for the names of your victims and you gave the name there:

&#9;&#9;"Nonjoli"

Do you see that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I see that but I don't know anything about that. I would not attack a stranger and later on come up with a name.

MR BERGER: Well, where does that name come from if not from you?

MR DLAMINI: I have no idea. I do not know Boipatong. I was going to Boipatong for the first time, who can I know the people when I don't know the place?

MR BERGER: Well you confirmed this document this morning, you made certain changes to the document, you corrected certain mistakes but you didn't correct this one, so you confirmed it.

MR DLAMINI: It might as well be that my lawyer did not read this one to me.

MR BERGER: Well as I read the applications, you are the only applicant to put a name here, you are the only person to mention a name of a victim. It has to come from you, Mr Dlamini, it couldn't come from anybody else. You gave this name when you made your application.

MR DLAMINI: I have already pointed out that I know nothing about this name. My attorney did not even refer to this name in the morning. I would have indicated this to him.

MR BERGER: So you can't explain where this name comes from?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I am not in the position to.

MR BERGER: In the criminal trial you gave evidence, and at page 3529 the following question was put to you: "Mr Moloi has given evidence that you were in Boipatong and that you had a self-made spear with you and that you were in a certain house in Shlube Street, number 765, where you stabbed a person with a spear."

What do you say about that? And your answer was:

&#9;&#9;"No, he is making a mistake."

Do you remember that?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I remember saying this in Court.

MR BERGER: But Moloi was not making a mistake, was he?

MR DLAMINI: He was making a mistake. I cannot make a spear, I did not make that spear, I buy a spear, I bought that one. I do not even know the house that he is talking about. I don't know what house it is.

MR BERGER: Well he was correct, you were in Boipatong, you did have a spear.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct, yes that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you did enter a house in Shlube Street.

MR DLAMINI: I have already pointed out that I went into two houses, one of which had a shack and the other one is the one house in which I found a child.

MR BERGER: You did enter a house in Shlube Street, correct?

MR DLAMINI: I would not admit because I don't know.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Interpreter he said he won't agree where the house is because he doesn't know.

INTERPRETER: Thank you.

MR BERGER: I put it to you that entered a house in the vicinity of Shlube Street, are you denying that?

MR DLAMINI: I do not deny that, I am saying I don't know, I don't know which house you are talking about.

MR BERGER: Well let me read to you what you say in your affidavit at the bottom of page 222:

&#9;&#9;"I stabbed another person, a man, with a spear in the vicinity of Shlube Street."

You say that.

MR DLAMINI: I would not bind myself to Shlube Street, I have already indicated that I do not know the place. I cannot say I stabbed a person at such a place, knowing full well that I am not familiar with the place. Yes, I agree, I stabbed a person at a particular place but I am not quite conversant with the area.

MR BERGER: So where does this name Shlube Street come from, if not from you, in your own statement? Is that another mistake that you forgot to point out this morning?

MR DLAMINI: No, I don't know where it comes from. I don't know really.

MR BERGER: In fact I read this sentence to you a little while ago, you didn't mention that it was wrong at that stage.

MR DLAMINI: Maybe you did not get me well. When I say I don't know a place, really I don't know how to go about explaining it to you.

MR BERGER: You've got no explanation for how this comes to be in your statement, have you?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, the point has been made. The record speaks for itself. He stabbed a man in one of the houses and he stabbed four or five others in a shack.

MR BERGER: That's not my point, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Mr Berger, the point is made with regard to his statement and the mistakes. Really, we don't have to keep - it's emphasised sufficiently.

MR BERGER: If I can just round it off with this point, and that is:

&#9;At 765 Shlube Street, Mrs Martha Nonjoli, the name you mentioned, was indeed shot and killed and two minor children, Ndo, Ntombifekele were hacked and killed. And aren't you responsible for that, Mr Dlamini?

MR DLAMINI: No, I still maintain what I was saying. I know nothing about the names that appear here. I will continue maintaining that I know nothing about these names.

MR BERGER: What happened at the hostel on the 18th of June 1992? You woke up by - you were woken by Damarra Chonco, is that right?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: He told you to go around and get people to burn the goods which they had stolen from Boipatong.

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: Were you alone when you went from room to room?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I was alone indeed on my side, I did not see anyone else.

MR BERGER: You were not with Mr Mkhize, you were not with Mr Matan(?)?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR BERGER: And did people listen to you, did they obey your instruction?

MR DLAMINI: I would say they did because I was walking around calling upon people to bring along their stolen property or the stolen loot from Boipatong so that this could be put in the fire.

MR BERGER: What was your position in the hostel?

MR DLAMINI: Nothing.

MR BERGER: What was your position in the IFP?

MR DLAMINI: Nothing, I was just a member, I had no position.

MR BERGER: What was Damarra Chonco's position in the hostel or the IFP?

MR DLAMINI: I knew him to be Mkhize's assistant.

MR BERGER: After you had organised the burning of the goods, what happened?

MR DLAMINI: Nothing happened, I then went back to my room.

MR BERGER: So according to you there was no meeting in the hostel on the 18th?

MR DLAMINI: As far as I know I think there was a meeting yes, later on in the day, a meeting which was attended by Mr Khosa and Ndlovu.

MR BERGER: So Mr Khosa and Mr Ndlovu did come to the hostel on the 18th?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, they did.

MR BERGER: And Mr Khosa did not tell the residents to burn the goods because they'd already been burnt by that stage.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR LAX: Sorry, while you're looking, Mr Berger ...

&#9;Did you - I just didn't hear clearly, there was a bit of interference at the back here, did you go to that meeting on the 18th or not?

MR DLAMINI: No, I did not attend the meeting.

MR LAX: Thanks.

MR BERGER: Oh!. Why did you not attend that meeting?

MR DLAMINI: I was busy cooking porridge in my room.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Dlamini, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: And re-examination?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, there's still some people ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any questions, Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, maybe I have one question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Mr Dlamini, am I right that you broke many windows while going through Boipatong?

MR DLAMINI: No, I did not break windows.

MR MALINDI: Did you see any of the attackers breaking windows?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, even though I could not make out who exactly it was but I did hear windows shattering.

MR MALINDI: And when Mr Qambelani Buthelezi gave evidence he said when people have been cleared at the gate, if they happen to be young people they would be referred to him directly, and if I remember well he was giving this evidence to show that Nosenga was not referred to him.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I agree with Buthelezi because he was in charge of the youth. They used to go to him.

MR MALINDI: The point I'm trying to make is that if that was the practice then you would not have heard of Nosenga incidentally from some boys, saying here is this person, Mr Buthelezi should have been the one to hear about him first?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR MALINDI: And it was not Mr Qambelani Buthelezi who alerted the residents of the presence of Nosenga.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, he was not around.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair. &#9;Sir, at the time that you moved into Kwamadala hostel in 1990, were you a member of the IFP?

MR DLAMINI: Yes.

MR CAMBANIS: And at the time of the attack in June '92, you were acquainted with the policies of the IFP.

MR DLAMINI: May the question please be repeated?

MR CAMBANIS: At the time of the attack it's fair to say that you were well acquainted with the policies of the IFP.

MR DLAMINI: No, I did not know the policies, I was just a follower, I did not know the policies.

MS CAMBANIS: Sir, you had been a member since - when did you become a member of the IFP?

MR DLAMINI: If I am not mistaken I think it was in 1990, at the eruption of the violence.

MS CAMBANIS: You've heard here that it was not within the police of the IFP that a massacre of this nature be launched, is that correct?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did hear.

MS CAMBANIS: And you knew that yourself?

MR DLAMINI: No, I did not.

MS CAMBANIS: Are you aware of the fact that the national leader of the IFP had during the course of last week distanced himself from this attack, expressing himself as not condoning this attack?

MR DLAMINI: I think I did not hear that.

MS CAMBANIS: Are you aware of the fact that the regional leader, Mr Themba Khosa has disassociated himself from this attack in not condoning this attack?

MR DLAMINI: I think I heard that yesterday during testimony here.

MS CAMBANIS: Thank you, Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you,

Chairperson.

&#9;During consultations with me, did I show you this map? That is Exhibit J.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, you did.

MR STRYDOM: Did you point out certain areas to me, about the route and where certain things happened?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, you did.

MR STRYDOM: No further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: Nothing.

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MS TANZER: No questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Dlamini, I heard you saying you saw Kubeka stabbing this child in the back.

MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: I look at Dlamini's application and he says:

&#9;&#9;"I didn't kill anybody but I threw a burning tyre into one of the houses."

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Sibanyoni, you said Mr Dlamini's application.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Kubeka in his application denies hurting anybody, killing anybody. He says he only threw a tyre in one of the houses and he says:

&#9;&#9;"I never entered houses."

Why do you think he denies that?

MR DLAMINI: He might be mistaken because I saw him. He too knows that very well, that I saw him.

MR SIBANYONI: So you are saying he stabbed and also he entered into a house?

MR DLAMINI: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: You are not able to say how the names Nonjoli as well Shlube Street came into your documents, into your affidavit, you never gave those names?

MR DLAMINI: No.

MR SIBANYONI: The young man you knew, did you know that person as Matanzima or you also knew the name, Nosenga?

MR DLAMINI: I did not know him, I only knew him as Matanzima, not with any other name.

MR SIBANYONI: I also heard you saying the person was young and you were surprised now that he's a sort of a grown up person. Was the person far younger than yourself, the person you knew as Matanzima?

MR DLAMINI: Yes, I am an old man, he is a baby.

MR SIBANYONI: So would you say the person you saw now at this hearing, is he a baby a far as you are concerned, compared to your age?

MR DLAMINI: He is a baby, save to say he is now bigger, he looks like a man but yes, I can see he's now a little bit bigger.

MR SIBANYONI: If you say he looks like a man, are you saying he's almost your age?

MR DLAMINI: No, not at all, not with me.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Is there anything arising?

MR STRYDOM: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

MR MALINDI: No questions, Sir.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

MR BERGER: No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlamini, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

&#9;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;26TH JANUARY 1999

NAME:&#9;PETRUS MDINISO

APPLICATION NO: AM 6127/97 

MATTER:&#9;BOIPATONG MASSACRE

DAY:&#9;&#9;7

______________________________________________________

CHAIRPERSON: Who is your next witness?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next applicant is Petrus Mdiniso.

CHAIRPERSON: We will take the tea adjournment and return at a quarter to twelve.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

INTERPRETER: Chairperson, may I please make an announcement?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: What language are you going to speak? Please give us your full names.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not activated.

THULANI PETROL MDINISO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated. Yes, Mr Strydom?

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Mdiniso, I want to show your signature on page 195, that's the signature that appears on the Form 1: Amnesty Application. Is that your signature?

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: This document has been canvassed with you and translated to you, do you confirm the contents?

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now what you state in this document is that you were not part of the attack on Boipatong and you only heard about the attack after the attack, is that correct?

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And you maintain that you were incorrectly found guilty at the trial of this matter?

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Now there's an annexure to your application stating the political objective of the attack, do you say that this is not applicable to your application?

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: You furthermore gave certain answers after a request for further particulars was shown to you, do you confirm the correctness of the answers as they appear on page 198 and 199?

MR MDINISO: Will you please repeat the question?

MR STRYDOM: During consultations certain questions were put to you and you gave certain answers and these answers were translated to you, do you confirm the answers as they were translated to you?

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: You also signed an affidavit, and your signature appears on page 201, is that your signature?

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: Do you admit the contents of this affidavit as it has been translated to you?

MR MDINISO: Yes, I agree, though someone was translating to me. Perhaps there are mistakes, there could be some mistakes because someone was translating for me. 

MR STRYDOM: Yes, it's short affidavit so I'll just translate it to you now and you can just confirm the contents:

&#9;"During June 1992 I was staying at Kwamadala hostel."

MR MDINISO: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I moved in during 1990."

MR MDINISO: Correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"This was after all Zulus were chased out of other hostels and townships."

INTERPRETER: Can the speaker please repeat the last statement?

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"That was after all Zulus were chased out of other hostels and townships."

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"Supporters of the IFP were killed by ANC supporters."

MR MDINISO: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"It was not out of my own free will that I moved to Kwamadala."

MR MDINISO: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I was forced to do so for my own safety."

MR MDINISO: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"On the 17th of June 1992, it was my day off."

MR MDINISO: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I stayed here at the hostel."

MR MDINISO: Correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I did not know anything about an attack which took place, which would have taken place."

MR MDINISO: Correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I went to go and sleep at approximately 8 o'clock pm."

MR MDINISO: That is correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I stay in a room very far from the stadium. I didn't hear the alarm or anything of that nature. The next day at work, I heard on the radio about the attack."

MR MDINISO: Correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I know many people in Boipatong and also stayed there some time ago."

MR MDINISO: I did not get the last statement.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I know many people in Boipatong and stayed there some time ago."

MR MDINISO: Correct.

MR STRYDOM: 

&#9;"I feel very sorry for those who died and who were injured. I was falsely implicated at the trial and was also wrongly convicted. I nevertheless ask for amnesty but that does not mean that I did anything wrong."

Is that the affidavit?

MR MDINISO: Correct.

MR STRYDOM: The process of amnesty has been explained to you, is that correct?

MR MDINISO: The process of amnesty, I did not have any idea as far as this is concerned, but I heard when Buthelezi and Mthembu were being questioned. I did not have any idea. I only got the idea when I was listening as they were questioned. I came here to clear my name in front of the people of Boipatong and to mention that I was falsely implicated. I was convicted, falsely convicted by the Judge. I knew very well that my hands are clean. I know nothing about the Boipatong incident.

ADV SIGODI: Could you speak slowly so that we can get the interpretation clearly because if you speak fast we can't get it.

MR STRYDOM: You were asked if you want to withdraw your application, you said no, you want to carry on with the application, why?

MR MDINISO: My reasons are as follows: I am prepared to tell the people of Boipatong that I am innocent, I know nothing about the attack. That is the reason why I came here, because I know this place as a place to tell the truth. I wanted to come here and tell the people that I know nothing about the Boipatong incident. I as sick on that particular day, I had flu. I was not feeling well, and that is why I had to go to bed as early as 8 o'clock.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MS TANZER: Are you aware of the existence of Andries Nosenga?

MR MDINISO: I don't even know him, I only hear about him here for the first time.

MS TANZER: So you don't know whether he was staying at the hostel or not?

MR MDINISO: I won't even mention anything about him. I don't even know what to say about him because I don't even know him.

MS TANZER: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

MR MALINDI: Chairperson, just one question.

CHAIRPERSON: I beg your pardon, do you want Mr Berger to start?

MR MALINDI: I would be ...(indistinct) to say it that way, Mr Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Mdiniso, if I understand you correctly, you did not attend any meeting prior to the 17th of June 1992 at which there was talk about an attack, am I right?

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct. The only meeting that I attended is only one where there was a complaint when a car was burnt down. A gentleman by the name of ...(indistinct) Sibiya and the other one whose surname was Zulu, they were together. Their car was burnt down at Sondela. I heard the complaints from the people and previously people had died and people were complaining because they were dying. That was the only meeting that I attended.

MR BERGER: The only question is, at no meeting at which you attended was there ever any talk about an attack on anyone, am I right?

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: I just want to ask you one question or I want to concentrate just on one sentence in your affidavit at page 201 where you say:

&#9;"I know many people in Boipatong."

At the time of the attack, did you know many people in Boipatong?

MR MDINISO: Do you mean during the attack? Will you please repeat your question?

MR BERGER: I'm not suggesting that you were part of the attack, I'm saying, at that time, June 1992, did you know many people in Boipatong?

MR MDINISO: No, I would request you not to refer to me about the time of the attack. What I said is that I knew people from Boipatong prior to the attack. Just before the politics I grew up in that place and I knew quite a number of people. Please don't refer me to the attack because I was not present but I know the people from Boipatong.

MR BERGER: Mr Mdiniso, please listen to my question. You say in your affidavit, which was signed by you in 1998, June 1998, you say:

&#9;"I know many people in Boipatong."

Is that correct? 

MR MDINISO: The people who are residing at Boipatong, I know the residents, the real residents of Boipatong, not people from KwaZulu Natal. I was also a tenant at Boipatong. I did not own a house there, I was just a tenant.

MR BERGER: And these people that you know who are living in Boipatong, they were also living in Boipatong at the time of the attack, am I right?

MR MDINISO: You mean during the attack? There was a meeting at Zone 7 on the 22nd. I'm not sure whether the month was July because that place is far away. On our way from that meeting, when we went to the hostel at Sebokeng, the hostel was closed. They told us the Zulus were not welcome. 

&#9;The following day on the 23rd, there were pamphlets that were distributed all over the place, in the houses in the townships. The pamphlets were saying that the Zulus were not welcome.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mdiniso, please, you're going on a long story. You're being asked a very simple question. it's really a simple matter. Mr Berger is asking you that as at June 1992, is it correct that you knew many people who were involved or were living in Boipatong, simple as that, yes or no?

MR MDINISO: Yes, I knew people there.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Mdiniso, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Just one question.

&#9;During 1992, you were working at Iscor, is that correct? 

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: And you worked shifts, is that right?

MR MDINISO: Yes, I was working three shifts.

MR STRYDOM: And some people that worked at Iscor lived in Boipatong, is that correct?

MR MDINISO: The people who were working for Iscor, among them there were people who were residing at Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: No questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

MS TANZER: No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

ADV SIGODI: No questions, Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mdiniso, you do understand that this Committee only has the power to grant amnesty to persons who have committed an offence with a political motive. 

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is what I got to understand when I arrived here.

CHAIRPERSON: As we understand your evidence you never committed any act of violence in relation to the Boipatong massacre.

MR MDINISO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The only reason you came to this Committee was to tell the people of Boipatong that you are innocent?

MR MDINISO: Yes, that is the reason, because in Court I was found guilty. I wanted to apply for amnesty and to clear my name. Among my brothers and the people of Boipatong they should know that I'm innocent.

CHAIRPERSON: What was done by the High Court cannot be undone by this Committee. If you persist in your innocence, only the Appeal Court has the power to undo what was done by the High Court. Do you understand that?

MR MDINISO: Yes, I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON: We can only consider an application if you consider yourself to be guilty of the massacre or any act in relation to the massacre at Boipatong. Do you understand that?

MR MDINISO: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: What you are telling us is that you didn't do anything wrong?

MR MDINISO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything arising?

MR STRYDOM: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Chairperson, may I ask one question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Mr Mdiniso, did you share your room with anyone at Kwamadala?

MR MDINISO: Yes, there were some people.

MR MALINDI: Who were they?

MR MDINISO: It was Benseni Ntuli.

MR MALINDI: Anyone else?

MR MDINISO: The other one's surname was Shandu. I cannot remember the first name, perhaps it was Aaron Shandu or something else, but I cannot remember.

MR MALINDI: You say perhaps it was who Shandu?

MR MDINISO: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Was there anyone else in your room?

MR MDINISO: No, there was no-one else.

MR MALINDI: Mr Ntuli, was he the one who helped with security at the gate?

MR MDINISO: Yes.

MR MALINDI: Now on the evening of the 17th of June 1992, did you become aware that these two other gentlemen left your room during that night or not?

MR MDINISO: Pardon?

MR MALINDI: Mr Ntuli and Shandu, were they in your room when you went to sleep?

MR MDINISO: On that particular day they left me in the house. Shandu was going to be on duty and Ntuli was going to be duty. They were about to start at 6 o'clock. They left me in the house.

MR MALINDI: The following morning, what time did you go to work yourself?

MR MDINISO: I was to report at work at 2 o'clock. I moved from Kwamadala hostel at about half past 12 on my way to work.

MR MALINDI: And that was two in the afternoon?

MR MDINISO: Yes.

MR MALINDI: And when you woke up in the morning, did you hear anyone walking around ordering residents to take out things that were stolen from Boipatong, to be burnt?

MR MDINISO: No, I did not hear that, I heard that for the first time here.

MR MALINDI: And before you left for work, did you become aware that there was an attack in Boipatong, from your co-residents or not?

MR MDINISO: No, I only got that information at work. I heard that people died at Boipatong, they were attacked. That is the information that I got when I was at work.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Cambanis?

MS CAMBANIS: Nothing thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mdiniso, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;26TH JANUARY 1999

NAME:&#9;SIPHO ALFRED BUTHELEZI

APPLICATION NO: AM(?) 

MATTER:&#9;BOIPATONG MASSACRE

DAY:&#9;&#9;7

______________________________________________________

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next applicant I intend calling is Sipho Buthelezi, but I ask for the matter to stand down for a short time. I must still consult with him and just go through his affidavits. Unfortunately he was not here yesterday. He phoned my attorney and gave an explanation why he could not be here, but I see he is here today. 

&#9;I didn't say that I'm going to call him, I said Paulos Mbatha but I think I'll also call Paulos Mbatha probably later today, so he will still be called. I ask for a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: How much?

MR STRYDOM: Twenty minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, Mr Strydom, is there any reason why you have not consulted with your client?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I've consulted with all my clients but just to make it more convenient for the Committee, I must go through their statements before they testify, just to get clarity on each and every aspect. 

&#9;I would submit that it shortens the proceedings if I can go through with the interpreter before he testifies, just before the witness testifies. I've used all the other adjournments during lunch breaks to do consultations up till now, but things went a bit quicker today, so I'm in a bit of trouble at this stage so I will ask for a short adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you consulted? You are now left with Sipho Buthelezi is it?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Sipho Buthelezi.

CHAIRPERSON: Sibongeleni Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: Mkhize I must inform the Committee is not present. I don't about his whereabouts, neither does my attorney. He hasn't been present since the beginning of this session. He's never been here, he never came.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, is the applicant who said will be dealt with at the close of things?

MR STRYDOM: I indicated at the beginning that he was not present, he never arrived.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR STRYDOM: So the outstanding ones are Sipho Buthelezi, Mbatha and then Kubeka.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, okay. Have you consulted with Mr Mbatha on the statement?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, on a previous occasion but not today or yesterday, so I would like a short adjournment to consult with him as well. 

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. Mr Kubeka?

MR STRYDOM: I've consulted with him on the last occasion, I took his statement. That was during the course of these hearings but not again.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, okay. 

MR STRYDOM: A request, can the matter stand down for lunch now till 2 o'clock and then I can consult with three of them then I don't need any further time for any consultations after that? I can consult with the three of them together.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what we are considering.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger, what we propose doing is to allow Mr Strydom to consult with the three remaining applicants and then we will take the lunch adjournment now and allow him to consult with all of the applicants and then we will resume after lunch, do you have any objection to that?

MR BERGER: No objection, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The time now is about twenty past twelve, should we come back at one thirty? It would be one hour and ten minutes.

MR STRYDOM: Can I ask until a quarter to two because I'm going to consult with three people.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well. Well if that is the case, what do you colleagues say to that request?

MR BERGER: We've got no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, very well. Well the Committee recognises the fact that we have probably been starting too early and perhaps finishing somewhat late and that may well have prevented you from consulting with your clients. We will adjourn a this stage, take lunch and we will come back at quarter to two.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: And when we come back, we expect at least you to have consulted with all the remaining witnesses and could you also make enquiries if you can, as to what is happening to Xholiseni Sibongeleni Mkhize or ask your instructing attorney to make enquiries from the other co-applicants as to when last he was seen or what his position is.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well. May I see all the legal representatives in the Committee shortly after this? We will rise and come back at quarter to two.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, what language are you going to speak?

MR BUTHELEZI: Zulu.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, I didn't get the middle name.

MR BUTHELEZI: Alfred.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

MR LAX: Sorry, Judge, we're not getting any translation in English.

SIPHO ALFRED MR BUTHELEZI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Strydom?

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Mr Buthelezi, you've signed a Form 1, Amnesty Application, on page 182, is that your signature?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: This document has been shown to you and translated to you, and you've indicated that there is one mistake which you want to rectify and that is contained in paragraph 11(b), is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: That paragraph deals with orders that were given inter alia it reads:

&#9;"Orders were given on the 10th and 17th of June 1992."

Is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR STRYDOM: When did you move into the hostel for the first time?

MR BUTHELEZI: On the 17th of June 1992.

MR STRYDOM: Did you attend any meetings in the hostel prior to the 17th of June 1992?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: I also want to refer you to the annexure to this Form 1. You've indicated to me that you will set out the reasons why you went to Boipatong, in your own words, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: We will deal with that later. First I want to show you page 185 and 186, that is the request for further particulars and your answers are on page 187, 188 and 189. Do you confirm the answers given by you?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You've indicated to me that you want to add something to the answer contained under point 2.2?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: The question was, with reference to the two groups of attackers:

&#9;"In which one you were"

And the answer you've given is:

&#9;"I cannot remember."

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You added to that:

&#9;"I think Mkhize."

Is that what you wanted to add, Mkhize's group?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Then I want to refer you to your affidavit on page 190 and your signature on page 192. Is that your signature?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is my signature.

MR STRYDOM: And do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: According to this affidavit, you arrived at the hostel on the date of the attack.

MR BUTHELEZI: I arrived on that day of the attack.

MR STRYDOM: Before you moved into Kwamadala hostel, can you just elaborate on what happened in the townships and what motivated you to move to Kwamadala.

MR BUTHELEZI: What motivated me to move to Kwamadala hostel, I had a quarrel with two young men. One of them was Doti and the other one was Skosana.

&#9;Doti and Skosana were there at my place of work at Hollywood Inn Nightclub. They wanted to hit Timothy Stals Mazibuko with a handgrenade.

&#9;I said to them; stop doing what you intend doing. If you want peace or harmony stop that because you are going to injure this person and all of us will be affected and the other people who know nothing about this.

&#9;They said they wanted to do their job. I said - I drew my firearm, a 9mm that was in my possession and I told them that after finishing what they wanted to do, I was also going to hit them back. 

&#9;The other said; then that means the guy was my friend because I was prepared to do whatever on his behalf. I told them that this person was a customer. The situation was bad and I couldn't live freely in the township thereafter. Whenever I'm walking around the township, I would see people looking at me in a funny way, in a strange way but I knew what the cause was ...(intervention)

MR STRYDOM: Just to interrupt you there, this Doti and Skosana, were they members of the ANC?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, they were well-known members of the ANC.

MR STRYDOM: During that period, were you a member of any political party?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, can you take it from there, what then eventually happened and why did you move to Kwamadala?

MR BUTHELEZI: The month was April in 1992. Skosana and other young men who were residing in that same area called me Umkgwenbe. I told them to stop calling me with such a name. Skosana referred to me - said I was a dog and he wanted to get something to hit me with. When the other one opened his jacket I saw an AK47. I ran away.

&#9;They shot at me but they missed me and I went to my place. I told my brothers and I told them that the situation was tense. Just because I'd stopped the guys trying to hit Skosana(sic) with the handgrenade and Skosana influenced the other people against me and they told the other people that I was a member of Inkatha Freedom Party. 

&#9;My situation became worse. On the 16th we couldn't sleep at our respective places because the people were pelting the house with stones. We woke up. I took that firearm, that 9mm. I shot in the air for about five times. 

&#9;The pelting of the stones subsided and my friend Jabulani said to me; it's better for us to leave the place because the people would come and burn us inside the house. We did as Jabulani was saying.

&#9;I didn't even know that Jabulani was an IFP member. We went to Jabulani's girlfriend and we spent a night there at her place. Jabulani told them about the situation. After that they said we must get into the shack. They locked us inside the shack, they locked from the outside.

&#9;Jabulani opened the window and tried to talk to them through the window and asked them why were they using a padlock. They said they that the people should think that there was no-one inside the shack.

&#9;On the 17th we woke up and Jabulani told us to go to a certain place to get better protection. I asked him: "Where are we going?" and he said: "Lets go to Kwamadala hostel. I had no alternative but we had to go to Kwamadala hostel. We went to Kwamadala hostel, it was three of us.

MR STRYDOM: Who was the third person that went with you and Jabulani?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was Doctor, the name was Doctor.

MR STRYDOM: Now when you went to the Kwamadala hostel on that morning or during that day, did you know that there will be an attack on Boipatong that night?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Then what happened, how did you become aware that there was going to be an attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: After we had got into this hostel in one of the rooms that was occupied by the young men from the township, we saw our old friend that used to work with us at Hollywood. His name was Serame Mokoena. We had some money, we bought some liquor. We just wanted to calm down our emotions with this liquor. As we were sitting there I went to the toilet to relieve myself. I heard something like a whistle or siren. I heard sound. It looked like some people were talking outside, a number of people were talking outside. I was in the toilet at the time. 

&#9;After relieving myself I went out of the toilet. I enquired as to what was happening, what was this siren for. Serame said it might happen that something is going to happen, maybe there are people who want to come to attack us because the siren wouldn't just ring for nothing. He told us to go to the stadium.

&#9;We went to the stadium. When we arrived at the stadium, as we were coming in Hollie Bajozi was going out of the stadium. Serame asked him: "Why are you going out so quick, what was happening?". Hollie Bajozi told Serame this: "We were instructed to go and fetch our weapons." 

&#9;As he was telling us that, Mkhize came and he said: "I told you that this is the day that you've been waiting for, you must go and arm yourselves." We left. When I arrived at the house, Doctor gave me a pump-gun.

MR STRYDOM: Who gave you the pump-gun?

MR BUTHELEZI: Doctor gave me the pump-gun. After giving me this pump-gun there were two pump-guns left. One was his and one was Jabulani's. We left for the stadium.

&#9;When we arrived there, Damarra said each and every man must get out. We went to Serele and we came back again - I beg your pardon, he said, if they can go to Serele and come back and find a man inside the hostel, that man would be killed. We left for Serele.

&#9;We used ntelezi just before going to that. We applied that ntelezi on ourselves and we left through the gate. We were in a hurry.

MR STRYDOM: Did you know at that stage what was going to happen in Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, it was well-known that the Self Defence Units were to be attacked.

MR STRYDOM: Did you agree with the idea that Self Defence Units should be attacked?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not agree. As I was going there I did not agree with the idea. As they said we were going to - if they said that we were going to Zone 12 at Sebokeng, I would be in the forefront but unfortunately we went to this nearest house.

&#9;We went there, we went under the bridge, we walked behind the nursery ...(intervention)

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you are in that area, did you see any Casspir vehicles there and did you get into a Casspir vehicle and were you transported to Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: So you said you were by foot, what happened then?

MR BUTHELEZI: We went past the bridge that was on the tar road. We walked through another footpath through the bridge and we took cover under a big tree. We were told to wait there for the others. They came. 

&#9;We were divided into two groups and we were told that another group should go in front and the other one would follow.

&#9;In that process we saw a fence from the school that was used to barricade, to close the road, and it was tied up next to a certain pole. We removed that fence, we went through. When we were at the corner, at the road that was used by the taxis, we were told to start with the job.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember who told you that?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was with Serame and I asked him who was the gentleman that was talking. He said to me the gentleman was Damarra. I said fine.

MR STRYDOM: And what job are you referring to?

MR BUTHELEZI: The job of attacking. As we were going through on that road, we met with the Self Defence Units at the corner. Damarra started shooting and the others followed those who had firearms. 

&#9;The Self Defence Units shot back. Damarra took another direction with his group, going towards the direction of the shops. I took another direction, taking that same street as we had used as we were coming in. 

&#9;I participated, I also shot at the Self Defence Units. After shooting I left. I shot pointing at the houses, directing at the houses.

MR STRYDOM: Did you shoot any person in Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see if anybody got killed in Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not get into the houses, I was just walking in the streets.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see if anyone of the attackers stole goods in Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I saw them.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack, what happened to your shotgun?

MR BUTHELEZI: Damarra instructed me to give him the firearms. He was about to hide them. I asked Serame why is, this gentleman who wants my firearm, where does he say and Serame said this person is also living in that same yard. I gave him my firearm.

MR STRYDOM: The following day, were you at the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was there.

MR STRYDOM: At that time did you know Themba Khosa?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I knew him as I used to see him on TV.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see him there on the following day? That's now the day after the attack.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I saw him.

MR STRYDOM: Did you hear him issuing a warning that certain bloody clothes should be burnt?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see that some of the goods that were stolen in Boipatong got burnt?

MR BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR BUTHELEZI: Did you see that stolen goods were burnt?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not see that.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know Mr Nosenga?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know him very well.

MR STRYDOM: Did he share a room with you in the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Now when you started living in the hostel on the 17th of June 1992, was Mr Nosenga there already or not?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, he was not there.

MR STRYDOM: When did he come to the hostel, according to you?

MR BUTHELEZI: He came after the Boipatong incident.

MR STRYDOM: Are you certain about that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I am certain about that.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from him, can you remember the names of other people that also shared that room?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I can still remember them.

MR STRYDOM: Can you give the names of the other people?

MR BUTHELEZI: The first one is Papie.

MR STRYDOM: Another name if you can.

MR BUTHELEZI: And Tsanana, Hollie Bajosi.

MR STRYDOM: Hollie Bajosi was a State witness at the trial, is that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Any other names?

MR BUTHELEZI: Serame Mokoena and Skumbuzo.

MR STRYDOM: Is that all the names you can remember?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, for now those are the only names that I can remember.

MR STRYDOM: Before Mr Nosenga moved into the hostel, did you know him?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: When were you arrested for this Boipatong incident?

MR BUTHELEZI: If I'm not mistaken I think it was on the 25th of September 1992.

MR STRYDOM: Do you remember the policeman who came here by the name of Peens?

MR BUTHELEZI: I just saw them for the very first time on Friday.

MR STRYDOM: Both of them?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know a policeman by the name of Shaka?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know him.

MR STRYDOM: Where do you know Shaka from?

MR BUTHELEZI: I used to see him at Tekani's garage.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were moving through Boipatong and whilst you were busy with the attack, did you see any police or military vehicles in Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not see any military vehicles or police vehicles.

MR STRYDOM: During the course of that night of the attack, did you see any vehicles at any stage?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PRETORIUS: I have no questions, thank you, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, M'am.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: When you arrived at the hostel, who allocated you a room?

MR BUTHELEZI: If I'm not mistaken I think it was Mr Mthembu.

MS TANZER: Were you presented to any committee upon your arrival?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: Were you questioned about your political affiliations when you arrived at the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat the question, M'am.

MS TANZER: Were you questioned by anyone about your political affiliations when you arrived at the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: I cannot remember.

MS TANZER: You were simply given a room and invited into the hostel without any questioning or any interrogation?

MR BUTHELEZI: I remember when we arrived at the gate, Jabulani issued his card, his membership card, IFP membership card. I think Mr Mthembu asked us something ...(intervention)

MS TANZER: What time about did you hear the siren?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was in the evening.

MS TANZER: Was it the early evening or the late evening?

MR BUTHELEZI: I think the time was about nine.

MS TANZER: When you arrived at the stadium, was anybody speaking to you, were there any speeches being made?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: When you arrived at the stadium, did you notice any weapons lying on the floor or anywhere, to be taken by the hostel residents?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: Was the pump-gun that you used that night, did that belong to you or did you bring that with Jabulani to the hostel that afternoon?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was brought by Jabulani in the evening and he said he was giving it to me, it would be mine thereafter.

MS TANZER: And as you entered the hostel, did they not search you or anything? Did they not try to search for weapons or something?

MR BUTHELEZI: These three pump-guns, Jabulani left with a guy who was, they left with a guy in a car and they went to fetch them in the hostel. I asked him where did he get the pump-guns, he told me that he had bought the pump-guns from the Sebokeng hostel.

MS TANZER: How many people would you say attacked Boipatong that night?

MR BUTHELEZI: Are you talking about the residents of Kwamadala hostel or the people who were attacked?

MS TANZER: No, the Kwamadala hostel, the attackers.

MR BUTHELEZI: Plus-minus 300.

MS TANZER: Did you notice anyone wearing a balaclava on their face or covering their face in any manner that night?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, no-one was like that.

MS TANZER: Did you notice any white people participating in the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: Can you remember when about did Nosenga join the hostel after the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: I cannot remember whether he came after weeks or after a month, I just cannot remember.

MS TANZER: Well when he arrived, was he only able to speak Sotho?

MR BUTHELEZI: He came to us and he was speaking in Sotho.

MS TANZER: So how did you communicate with him?

MR BUTHELEZI: I asked him about his visit, why was he there. He first said to me the people want to burn him in the township because they said he was an IFP member. I asked him what is it that he did that made the people to say that he was an IFP member ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Buthelezi, that's not really the question, the question is you say that Nosenga spoke Sotho.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he spoke Sotho.

MS TANZER: Now what you've been asked is how did you communicate with Mr Nosenga. 

&#9;Is that the question, M'am?

MS TANZER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you understand the question?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I understand the question. He first greeted us, he said ...(Sotho). That means he was greeting us in Sotho. I noticed that he was a Sotho-speaking person.

MS TANZER: But my question was, in what language did you communicate with him, how did you talk to him?

MR BUTHELEZI: I can say I was born here in this Vaal Triangle. I can speak both languages, Sotho and Zulu.

MS TANZER: So were you conversing with him in Sotho?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.&#9;

MS TANZER: What was he relating to you, his reasons for joining the hostel? You were telling us beforehand what he was telling you, can you just tell us again?

MR BUTHELEZI: When I asked him why he was out of the township, he said the people were saying that he was an IFP member ...(end of tape) washing Hollie Bajosi's car. I don't know what is it that he told the other gentlemen. 

&#9;After a few days I heard Joseph Radebe who was also a witness during the trial, though he did not go to Pretoria, he told me that this person said he was sent by the ANC to try and inspect the place as to where can he plant the bombs.

&#9;I got a shock because I realised that we were staying with someone who wanted to kill us. I asked him; gentleman, I asked you yesterday your reasons for being here in this hostel. He said no, I was afraid, I was too scared. Then Nosenga was then to be taken to the conference.

MS TANZER: Are you telling this Committee that he admitted to you that he was an ANC spy sent to plant bombs in the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was not alone, he admitted, I was with the other people.

MS TANZER: Did you discuss the attack with Mr Nosenga when he joined the hostel? Did you relate details of the event of the attack to him?

MR BUTHELEZI: Joseph Radebe would make an example about someone else in front of him. I think this is where he got some idea.

MS TANZER: What motive would you then give to Mr Nosenga for alleging that he participated in the attack if he did not participate in the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: The motive behind him saying that he was one of the people who participated in this Boipatong incident, perhaps he was regarding himself as a journalist, I don't know, or a newsman, I don't know.

MS TANZER: Now you've heard the version of Mr Nosenga that I've placed to all your fellow applicants to day, from the meetings that took place leading up to the attack and the attack itself. I don't want to waste this Committee's time any further, so I'm just going to put to you that that is Nosenga's version, that there were policemen at the time assisting in the attack at Boipatong and that he did participate in the attack at Boipatong. What are your comments and your comments regarding his statement?

MR BUTHELEZI: I dispute that.

MS TANZER: Well I put it to you, insofar as your version contradicts and differs Nosenga's that he is telling the truth and that you are not completely honest and open with this Committee, what are your comments?

MR BUTHELEZI: I'm the one who is telling the truth.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Buthelezi, after you became aware of Mr Nosenga's statement that he was an ANC spy and that he had been sent by the ANC to come and plant bombs in the hostel, what steps were taken to isolate Mr Nosenga?

MR BUTHELEZI: What do you mean, isolate him?

MR BERGER: Well, were any steps taken against Mr Nosenga?

MR BUTHELEZI: What steps were taken were that he was taken to Ulundi.

MR BERGER: How long after the allegation that he was an ANC spy was it until he was taken to Ulundi?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did get the question, I'm still thinking. No, I do not remember.

MR BERGER: Well, was it a week, two weeks, a month?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I cannot even begin to estimate.

MR BERGER: This was shocking news wasn't it, for you to discover that the man who is sleeping in your room is an ANC spy who has come to kill you, and you can't tell the Committee whether he continued to sleep in your room for a week or for a month after you became aware of that allegation.

MR BUTHELEZI: He was always under our watchful eyes, even though he went to the toilet at night. 

MR BERGER: Is that your answer?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And then how did you become aware of the fact that he was being taken to Ulundi?

MR BUTHELEZI: A meeting was convened at Kwamadala to the effect that on a particular day people would be going to a conference at Ulundi.

MR BERGER: Who addressed that meeting?

MR BUTHELEZI: I cannot recall. I was not quite familiar with the community at the hostel, only a few people.

MR BERGER: That was a meeting attended by all the residents of the hostel, is that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is correct.

MR BERGER: And at that meeting it was announced that Mr Nosenga is to be taken to the conference in Ulundi?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was Mr Nosenga at that meeting?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he too was present.

MR BERGER: So one can assume then that the entire hostel knew about Mr Nosenga and knew about his confession to be an ANC spy.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And nobody attempted to harm Mr Nosenga in any way, is that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct, we received an instruction to the effect that we should not harm him.

MR BERGER: Oh, from whom?

MR BUTHELEZI: This came from Mr Thembankosi Khumalo.

MR BERGER: Was that also at a meeting held in the hostel immediately after it became known that Mr Nosenga was an ANC spy?

MR BUTHELEZI: Would you please repeat the question, Sir?

MR BERGER: This instruction from Mr Khumalo, was it issued at a general meeting in the hostel immediately after it became known that Mr Nosenga was an ANC spy?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you know who went to Ulundi with Mr Nosenga?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, there were people with whom I shared a room who went to Ulundi.

MR BERGER: Who were they?

MR BUTHELEZI: Joseph Radebe, Serame Mokoena and Papie Skumbuzo. In my room I think it was myself and a few others or should I say two boys who were twins.

MR BERGER: Did you go to Ulundi?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: So Joseph Radebe, Serame Mokoena and papie Skumbuzo, they went to Ulundi?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, they did.

MR BERGER: And when they came back from Ulundi, did they tell you what happened there?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, they just informed me that Nosenga was put on stage, introduced and he was made to explain what drove him to Kwamadala.

MR BERGER: He was put on stage at the national conference and made to explain himself?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Was this in front of the top leadership of the IFP?

MR BUTHELEZI: That's how they told me.

MR BERGER: And did they tell you what Mr Nosenga said when he was on stage?

MR BUTHELEZI: They just informed me that Nosenga told the people there that he had been sent by the ANC to infiltrate the hostel and reconnoitre the area to establish where he could plant the bombs.

&#9;I cannot remember which old man asked him but I think he was asked by an old man as to whether he was still prepared to go back to the ANC, and Nosenga is said to have said no, he's a member of Inkatha.

MR BERGER: And then what decision - were you informed as to what decision had been taken at conference as to what to do with Mr Nosenga?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I was not informed.

MR BERGER: Well did Mr Nosenga come back to stay in your room?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Did you speak to him about his trip to Ulundi?

MR BUTHELEZI: I asked him in the presence of other how they fared to and fro and he told me that they fared well.

MR BERGER: Did Mr Nosenga tell you that he had met Chief Mangasotho Buthelezi at the conference?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, he didn't explain that to me.

MR BERGER: So as far as you were concerned it was alright for Mr Nosenga to come back and stay in your room, you were quite happy with that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, because we had realised that he's a nice person. He didn't have to be on his own thinking all the time.

MR BERGER: So from then on you treated him as a friend?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I would say that.

MR BERGER: Mr Buthelezi, I want to put it to you that this version of Mr Nosenga admitting that he was an ANC spy who had come to blow up the hostel and kill the hostel residents is a fabrication and it has been concocted by you and some of your fellow applicants who have recently given evidence.

MR BUTHELEZI: No, we have witnesses who arrived in Nosenga's presence. There are people who can testify in my favour in this regard, people who are no longer at the hostel.

CHAIRPERSON: Who are those people?

MR BUTHELEZI: Xhala, or should I say the first one would be Tsalmo, Nomjali Fasibiya ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Tsalmo's surname?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I don't.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know where he stays?

MR BUTHELEZI: I used to see him at Zone 7.

CHAIRPERSON: When last did you see him?

MR BUTHELEZI: Last week.

CHAIRPERSON: This is Zone 7 where, Sebokeng?

MR BUTHELEZI: Tzwee is one person who has the full knowledge to this effect.

CHAIRPERSON: No, you said that you last saw Tsalmo at Zone 7.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So where?

MR BUTHELEZI: At the shops.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, but which township, in Boipatong, in Sebokeng or ..."

MR BUTHELEZI: At Sebokeng, Zone 7.

CHAIRPERSON: You said this was last week?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the other person?

MR BUTHELEZI: Tzwee Bajosi.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR BUTHELEZI: That's all.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I've got Salmo, Tzwee, Bajosi, who is the other one?

MR BUTHELEZI: Nomjali Fasibiya.

CHAIRPERSON: And where does he stay, Nomjali Fasibiya?

MR BUTHELEZI: When I asked him last week where he stays, he told me that he stays at the two rooms near Palm Springs.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and Bajosi, where is he?

MR BUTHELEZI: At his parents' home, Zone 7, Sebokeng.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;You say that Mr Bajosi would be able to come and tell the Committee everything about Mr Nosenga?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I trust that he can come here.

MR BERGER: Joseph Radebe, is he still alive?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he is arrested.

MR BERGER: Where is he now?

MR BUTHELEZI: The last time I heard he was in Groenpunt, Groenpunt in Stoffberg.

MR BERGER: Serame Mokoena, where is he?

MR BUTHELEZI: I have no idea as to whether he is still alive or not. The last time I heard of him he had gone to Parys.

MR BERGER: Papie?

MR BUTHELEZI: He too is incarcerated in Sun City.

MR BERGER: And finally, Skumbuzo?

MR BUTHELEZI: He cannot be found, he is moving about.

MR BERGER: This quarrel that you had with Doti and Skosana was in Sebokeng, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Were you friendly with Stals Mazibuko at Kwamadala?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: Did you see him at Kwamadala?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did.

MR BERGER: Did you take your 9mm with you to Kwamadala?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, we gave it to a boy called Lucky from Everton.

MR BERGER: Did you think you wouldn't need your gun once you got to Kwamadala?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, it never occurred to me that I might need it.

MR BERGER: So when you went to Kwamadala, you, Doctor and Jabulani, none of you had guns, is that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: I would say as far as I'm concerned, Doctor and Jabulani had knowledge about the pump-guns.

MR BERGER: No, I'm not asking about their knowledge, I'm saying when the three of you entered Kwamadala on the 17th of June 1992, all three of you were unarmed.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And where is Jabulani and Doctor today?

MR BUTHELEZI: They died in 1992.

MR BERGER: Is it correct that you - or let me ask you this, what time did you enter Kwamadala hostel on the 17th of June?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was round about 12 to 1.

MR BERGER: Wasn't it about 3 o'clock in the afternoon?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is my estimation, 12 to 1 is my estimation.

MR BERGER: At the criminal trial, page 3444 you said you arrived at the hostel at about 3 o'clock in the afternoon.

MR BUTHELEZI: I was not sure because - I am saying that I was not sure because I was angry about what happened to me.

MR BERGER: So? Because you were angry you said you arrived at the hostel at 3 o'clock in the afternoon?

MR BUTHELEZI: That was an estimation of time.

MR BERGER: After you got into the hostel you were allocated a room you say, by Mr Mthembu?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is so.

MR BERGER: And then you went to your room together with Jabulani and Doctor, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: What did you do between the time you got to your room and the time you heard the siren go off?

MR BUTHELEZI: We held hands and spoke to some of the gentlemen that we found there. We bought liquor, we sat drinking.

MR BERGER: And there was no talk that afternoon about an attack on Boipatong, was there?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: In fact the first indication that you had that something was going on was when you heard the siren?

MR BUTHELEZI: I asked what this whistle was all about, Serame then told me that we were wanted at the stadium, something might happen.

MR BERGER: And Doctor and Jabulani were drinking with you and talking throughout the afternoon?

MR BUTHELEZI: We sat drinking all together to the time that we heard the siren.

MR BERGER: Well you see, my problem with that is there would then be no time for Doctor and Jabulani to go and fetch the shotguns from Sebokeng hostel.

MR BUTHELEZI: There was time because at some point Jabulani disappeared.

MR BERGER: No, you see you said you sat drinking with them the whole afternoon until the siren went off.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is what I've just said.

MR BERGER: But you also say at some point in the afternoon Jabulani got up and left.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And he left the hostel and he went to Sebokeng hostel, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: I only heard from him when he came back telling me that he was coming back from Sebokeng hostel.

MR BERGER: And the distance from Kwamadala to Sebokeng hostel is quite far, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is quite a distance.

MR BERGER: And he returned with two shotguns?

MR BUTHELEZI: There were three of them.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon, three shotguns.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: By himself he fetched three shotguns and brought them back to Kwamadala.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Despite the fact that he too had no knowledge of any planned attack that night, that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: Are you being honest when you say that you only came to the hostel on the 17th of June and that you had no knowledge whatsoever about a prior attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I am telling the truth.

MR BERGER: Now when you got to the stadium you had no idea what it was all about, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: What exactly were you told at the stadium?

MR BUTHELEZI: When we arrived at the entrance point, myself and Serame, that is the entrance point to the arena, we came across Bajosi and we asked him what was happening. Hollie Bajozi then said to Serame; Mkhize said this is the time, the time which you all have been waiting for, that we should go and attack. He then said Mkhize had just said that we should go and fetch our weapons. Indeed, we went to fetch our weapons. As we were talking there, Mkhize spoke as well.

MR BERGER: And what - sorry ...(intervention)

MR BUTHELEZI: Mkhize then said that the day of reckoning has arrived, it's about time we launched the attack. We then went for our firearms or our weapons.

MR BERGER: Did Mr Mkhize say anything else?

MR BUTHELEZI: I only heard him say what I've just said. I don't know what he said before we arrived at the Arena.

MR BERGER: Did he say who you were going to attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: Hollie Bajosi said we were going to attack the Self Defence Units.

MR BERGER: Did you know why?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I already knew.

MR BERGER: From whom?

MR BUTHELEZI: Serame had informed me that they were tired of being burnt all the time.

MR BERGER: So you knew when you left Boipatong, when you left Kwamadala, that you were only going to attack the Self Defence Units?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: The shotgun that you had was a pump-action, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: The State witness, Mr Moloi, told the trial Court that you were in possession of a pump-action shotgun, so he was correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you were lying in the criminal Court?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Moloi also told the criminal Court that the following day he heard that, he heard you say that you had shot a small child in Boipatong, do remember that evidence?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I don't. I did not know the State witness at the time.

MR BERGER: But he knew you because he accurately described what you were carrying in Boipatong. Let me read to you what was put to you at page 3447 of the record. Mr Bajosi has said in Court that he saw there in Boipatong and that you shot at a person, do you remember that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Is that evidence correct of Mr Bajosi?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is a lie.

MR BERGER: You never shot at a person?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Then it goes on. Mr Moloi has testified that the following morning he was in a conversation with you and other people while he was drinking there and others were also drinking and then you said that you had shot a small child, do you remember that evidence?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I don't.

MR BERGER: You say Mr Moloi was not telling the truth?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Because you knew, or you know, and you knew then that small children were not part of the SDUs, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Do you know what happened to your shotgun?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was taken by Mr Damarra.

MR BERGER: Yes?

MR BUTHELEZI: He took it on the 17th, he took it together with the other two shotguns. He brought them back on the following day, which was on the 18th and during which time we heard or we received information that we were going to be attacked by people from Serele. When we came back, at the robots where we took a turn, Mr Damarra took these firearms again, put them in his Skyline and drove away.

MR BERGER: This is on the 18th?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Mr Damarra Chonco puts three shotguns into the boot of his car, were there other guns in the boot of his car?

MR BUTHELEZI: His car was a distance from where we were. It was on the side of a wall.

MR BERGER: But it was inside the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And there were other weapons in the boot?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not get near the Skyline.

MR BERGER: And then with your three shotguns in his car, he left the hostel and drove away?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And at that time the hostel was surrounded by the police and the army?

MR BUTHELEZI: The police had not arrived yet and the soldier had not arrived as well.

MR BERGER: What time of the day on the 18th was this?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was in the morning. It was after we heard that the Serele people were going to avenge. The time could have been eight, nine or thereabouts.

MR BERGER: And the people of Boipatong were marching towards the hostel, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: They had said they were going to avenge, that is insofar as rumour is concerned.

MR BERGER: And how were they turned away?

MR BUTHELEZI: There were many soldiers and the Stability Unit around the area and they came to us,

MR BERGER: And it was only after that that Mr Damarra Chonco drove away?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And at that time the army was already there outside the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: We left the soldiers and the police at the robots.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you leave the hostel on the 18th to meet these people who were about to attack you?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You say, did you go as far as the robots?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we went as far as the robots.

MR BERGER: After Damarra Chonco drove away with the three shotguns you never saw those shotguns again?

MR BUTHELEZI: I saw only two of them later and not mine. He said he was going to bring my gun back.

MR BERGER: What happened to the two that he brought back?

MR BUTHELEZI: The police confiscated them as exhibit.

MR BERGER: When did he bring them back?

MR BUTHELEZI: He brought them back after the soldiers and the police had left.

MR BERGER: This must have been many days after the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: It could have been a week or weeks.

MR BERGER: Did you see Jabulani burying a shotgun?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: When was that?

MR BUTHELEZI: At the time when we were at the veld.

MR BERGER: Was it your shotgun that he was burying?

MR BUTHELEZI: ...(no English translation)

MR BERGER: Whose shotgun was he burying?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was his own shotgun.

MR BERGER: This was after you had left Boipatong but before you returned to Kwamadala.

MR BUTHELEZI: It was on our way to Boipatong.

MR BERGER: On your way into Boipatong you saw Jabulani burying a shotgun in the ground?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Before the attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Jabulani had already passed away at the time, I am the one who buried the shotguns. I did not understand the question.

MR BERGER: I think you understood the absurdity of your previous answer, but let's proceed. You buried a shogun in the veld on your way to Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: The guns were not hidden at Boipatong but were hidden at Kwamadala hostel.

MR BERGER: When did you bury a shotgun?

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Berger, he keeps talking about guns, not a gun, he's using the plural.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Lax. All of this flows from a question: "Did you see Jabulani burying a shotgun?", and he said: "Yes". Now he says Jabulani didn't bury the shotguns, the shotgun, "I did". 

&#9;Do I understand you correctly, Mr Buthelezi?

MR BUTHELEZI: I thought you were asking me if I did see Jabulani carrying a shotgun.

MR BERGER: I'll start again. Did you see Jabulani burying a shotgun?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: At the trial, your counsel put on your behalf a fact that you had seen Jabulani burying a shotgun. And when I say on your behalf, I mean on your, Sipho Buthelezi's behalf it was put, do you remember that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do remember that.

MR BERGER: And you say that is not true?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that was a lie.

MR BERGER: Did you tell your counsel that, that you saw Jabulani burying a shotgun?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I told him so. I told him so as I was trying to run away from the truth.

MR BERGER: How many shots did you fire in Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: About three times, I fired about three time.

MR BERGER: And you fired into houses?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I fired only once, directing to the houses.

MR BERGER: And the other two times?

MR BUTHELEZI: I shot, directing my shots towards the SDUs and I shot for the second time in the air. As the other people that were in my company were getting into the house I shot in the air.

MR BERGER: Why did you shoot into the air?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was too scared to kill a person.

MR BERGER: You wanted to kill people, didn't you?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that was the instruction that was coming from Mr Damarra.

MR BERGER: And you fired into the house because you wanted to kill whoever was in that house, you didn't care who was inside, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: I shot at a certain window, the bullet penetrated the dining-room.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you didn't fire, you fired into the air because you were afraid of killing a human being?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Previously you had threatened to shoot at the people who wanted to throw a handgrenade at Stals Mazibuko.

MR BUTHELEZI: I knew that they wouldn't do that, they wouldn't hit Mazibuko with a handgrenade.

CHAIRPERSON: But you did threaten to shoot them.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I tried to threaten them.

CHAIRPERSON: You told us earlier on that if you had been instructed to go to Sebokeng, you would have been the first one to go there.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I said so.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you going to do there?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was going to kill the people who were trying to kill me.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Buthelezi, at page 188 of your further particulars you say the following: Question 6:

&#9;&#9;"I had a shotgun and I fired shots in the direction of the houses and into the air."

Is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: At page 191, third last paragraph you say the following:

&#9;&#9;"I fired three shots in the first street which we entered. I fired in the direction of the houses and into the air."

Is that statement correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: So you fired at more than one house, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: I shot at one house only.

MR BERGER: You know that with a shotgun that the pellets spray all over the show, it's not just one bullet that comes out of a shotgun, you know that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know.

MR BERGER: So when you fire in the direction of one person you can hit 10 people, you know that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I know that.

MR BERGER: And you went spraying shotgun pellets in the first street in which you entered Boipatong, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And the first street that you entered in Boipatong, was at the bottom, the southern side of Boipatong. The first street was Moshweshwe Street, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Though I do not know the name of the street, but it was the street next to the school.

MR BERGER: Yes, that's Moshweshwe Street, right at the bottom of Boipatong.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: And just at where you came in in that street, Moshweshwe Street, people were killed and in house 666 two people were killed.

DISTRESSED AUDIENCE MEMBER

MS CAMBANIS: Mr Chair, may I be excused from the proceedings for a few minutes? Thank you.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

MR BERGER: And the two people who were killed at 666, Mr Buthelezi, were Anna Sebolai and Percival Sebolai, and Percival Sebolai was shot in the face with a shotgun. Is it correct, Mr Buthelezi, when you say that you didn't see who you were shooting at and you don't know if anyone was killed as a result of your shots?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I am sure that I did not see the person that I hit as I was shooting.

CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat your answer.

MR BUTHELEZI: I am saying ...(indistinct) that as I was shooting, directing to the house on that particular street, I am not sure if I did hit someone or not.

MR BERGER: When you were shooting there were people around you with spears, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that you went into the house at 666, you and your co-attackers, you shot Percival Sebolai whilst your co-attackers stabbed Anna Sebolai in Moshweshwe Street, the very first street that you entered? Isn't that what happened?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR BERGER: Where was Jabulani and Doctor when you ...(intervention)

MR BUTHELEZI: They disappeared, they just disappeared.

MR BERGER: So they were not with you in Moshweshwe Street when you fired into the houses, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, they were not there with me.

MR BERGER: Did you move down to Slovo Park?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we took that direction.

MR BERGER: And did you fire shots in Slovo Park?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not shoot thereafter.

MR BERGER: Why not?

MR BUTHELEZI: I do not have a specific reason why I did not shoot.

MR BERGER: According to you, you hadn't killed anyone up to that point.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Why did you stop your shooting spree when you got to Slovo Park?

MR BUTHELEZI: It's something that just happened unplanned.

MR BERGER: Weren't you still chasing the SUDs?

MR BUTHELEZI: They had already run away, most of them.

MR BERGER: Hadn't they run into the houses in Slovo Park?

MR BUTHELEZI: The others ran towards Slovo Park.

MR BERGER: Yes, and you followed them there.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we followed them.

MR BERGER: But you didn't shoot anymore, even though you could have?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I did not use the chance to shoot them.

MR BERGER: You're not being completely honest with this Committee about your participation in the attack, are you, Mr Buthelezi?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, that is not true.

MR BERGER: You know because you saw the damage that a shotgun can cause, and you want to distance yourself from that horror, isn't that right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Please repeat the question, Sir.

MR BERGER: You know because you saw the damage that a shotgun can cause on a human being, and you want to distance yourself from that horror, that is why you say you didn't shoot anymore in Slovo Park and you don't know if you killed anybody in Boipatong. I am right, aren't I?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I can still hear the interpreter interpreting whilst the next question was already asked.

INTERPRETER: The interpreter was still explaining the question to the witness.

MR BUTHELEZI: I can respond like this, as follows: at Boipatong I did not shoot anyone, all I know what I did was to shoot directing to one house only. In my mind I think that was in the bedroom. I was standing on the street, I think I hit the bedroom. I shot in the air, I left the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Well did you shoot once or did you shoot twice?

MR BUTHELEZI: I used three bullets.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright. The first shot that you fired, where was it directed at?

MR BUTHELEZI: My first shot was directed at the Self Defence Units. The second one was directed to one house and the bullet hit the bedroom.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, you fired directing the shot at a bedroom?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And the third shot, was it the one that you fired into the air?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Berger?

MR BERGER: Thank you. 

&#9;You fired into a bedroom because you knew that there would be people in bed, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: In that bedroom the light was on.

MR BERGER: And you knew there would be people in bed, that is why you fired into the bedroom, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not know that there would be people in bed, or there were people in bed.

MR BERGER: Why did you fire into a bedroom?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was trying to break the windows.

MR BERGER: Well Mr Buthelezi, there were many people breaking windows. Your job was to kill people.

MR BUTHELEZI: I've explained that I myself, I was afraid to kill a human being.

MR BERGER: You knew when you fired into that bedroom, that you had a very good chance of hitting people in bed, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was just shooting.

MR BERGER: Mr Buthelezi, I can see you don't want to answer my question, I'll move on. If there were police and police vehicles in Boipatong, you would have seen them, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: If the police had assisted you and your fellow attackers in Boipatong, you would know about that, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I would know about that.

MR BERGER: Because you would have seen it and you would have discussed it with your co-attackers afterwards, am I right.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Am I correct when I say you said Damarra's group went towards the shops and your group took the other route, that would mean that your group moved right down the first street in Boipatong, correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: In Moshweshwe Street I can just tell you that there were many windows smashed in many houses by your colleagues. Do you agree that there were plenty of people around you smashing windows in Moshweshwe Street?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I agree.

MR BERGER: At 11.93 Dick Mokoena was injured with a shotgun wound.

MR BUTHELEZI: Pardon?

MR BERGER: Dick Mokoena.

MR BUTHELEZI: I do not know that person.

MR BERGER: The next day after the attack, are you saying that you have no knowledge of anything being burnt?

MR BUTHELEZI: I did not know where these goods, the place, the spot where these goods were burnt.

MR BERGER: But you do know that goods were burnt?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Goods which were stolen from Boipatong.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who gave the order that those goods should be burnt, do you know?

MR BUTHELEZI: In the room that I was staying Damarra came in ...

MR BERGER: Yes?

MR BUTHELEZI: He told us that if we had taken something from Boipatong, we should take it to the stadium so that it could be burnt.

MR BERGER: And was anything taken from your room to the stadium?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Who had stolen stuff from Boipatong and what had they stolen.

MR BUTHELEZI: Hollie Bajosi brought a video machine, Skubuzo had a blanket, that is all.

MR BERGER: And Damarra said that these goods must be taken to the stadium to be burnt?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he said anyone who had stolen property from Boipatong, that should be taken to the stadium.

MR BERGER: When you went to the meeting at the stadium, had the goods already been burnt?

MR BUTHELEZI: I hope so.

MR BERGER: But you don't know.

MR BERGER: No, I don't know.

MR BERGER: Isn't it that Themba Khosa gave the instruction that the goods should be burnt and the weapons should be destroyed? I beg your pardon, the evidence linking you to the attack on Boipatong, should be destroyed?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, that is not Mr Themba Khosa's instruction, that was not Mr Themba Khosa's instruction. 

MR BERGER: What was his instruction?

MR BUTHELEZI: Mr Themba Khosa came and I heard him saying that they were shocked about the Boipatong incident and he wanted to know if we had any knowledge as to who did that, who was involved in that incident and everyone denied having any knowledge to that effect.

MR BERGER: Why?

MR BUTHELEZI: No-one wanted to be arrested at that time.

MR BERGER: But when Themba Khosa spoke the police were not in the stadium, were they?

MR BUTHELEZI: I think police were there on that particular day.

MR BERGER: Did you deny your involvement because you knew that such an attack would not be approved by Themba Khosa, is that why you denied it?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we denied our involvement there in that particular incident.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question is, did you deny your involvement in the attack because you knew that Themba Khosa would not have approved the attack on Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, Mr Khosa, I am sure that he wouldn't approve and he wouldn't be happy if he had known that we were the people who did that.

MR BERGER: You knew that on the 18th of June 1992?

MR BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat the question, Sir?

MR BERGER: Did you know that on the 18th of June 1992, that Themba Khosa wouldn't have been happy if he had known that you were responsible for the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: That is my view.

MR BERGER: Did Mr Mkhize give an instruction that the goods looted from Boipatong should be burnt?

MR BUTHELEZI: I don't know but in our room, Mr Damarra came.

MR BERGER: So would you answer at page 188 where you say: Question 5.1:

&#9;&#9;"Mr Khosa did not give such a warning, this warning was given by Damarra and Mkhize."

Would the reference to Mkhize there be wrong?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I can say so.

ADV SIGODI: Did you know Mr Mkhize?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: No, at the time, did you know him, at the time of the attack?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, Serame pointed him to me at the stadium.

ADV SIGODI: Thanks.

MR BERGER: This is the night of the attack, the night of the 17th?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR BERGER: Thank you, Mr Buthelezi, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malindi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Buthelezi, it's your evidence that you were not a member of the IFP before the 17th of June 1992.

MR BUTHELEZI: Are you talking about June or July?

MR MALINDI: 17 June 1992.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was not an IFP member at the time.

MR MALINDI: And the only conflict you had had with the ANC was the one involving Doti and Skosana?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you become a member of the IFP subsequent to that, that is subsequent to the 17th of June 1992?

MR BUTHELEZI: I became a member on the 17th.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;To the extent that you approved of this attack on Boipatong, it was because you were motivated by the desire to avenge what Doti and Skosana had done to you?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, deep in my heart I did not like the idea, I was not for the idea of attacking at Boipatong.

MR MALINDI: And you didn't want to take avenge in any form for what Doti and Skosana had done to you?

MR BUTHELEZI: I would try and - I would revenge at Zone 12.

MR MALINDI: So in other words, you can't put forward any reason why you attacked Boipatong yourself?

MR BUTHELEZI: My reason to go to Boipatong is because Mr Damarra said openly that a man that be left behind or that would be left in the yard while the other men go to Boipatong, that man, the one who would be left in Boipatong - the man that would be left in the hostel whereas other men had gone fighting, that man it would be his very last day.

MR MALINDI: After you heard about Nosenga's existence, did you go up to him, Nosenga?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I went up to him.

MR MALINDI: When you got to him and questioned him, who else was with you?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was a number of us.

MR MALINDI: Any names that you can remember?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was the late Mtwala and Tzwee, Papie, Doti, Shemi and Matanana and Chanke. Chanke is Joseph Radebe.

MR MALINDI: Was Mr Richard Dlamini anywhere near Nosenga at that time?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not see him.

MR MALINDI: Were Vusi and Spongolona also there?

MR BUTHELEZI: Though I cannot remember very well, as we were coming towards him I did not see the people who were in his company.

MR MALINDI: At that time was Nosenga taken anywhere, after you questioned him?

MR BUTHELEZI: Do you mean on that particular day?

MR MALINDI: On that particular day and specifically at the time when you were part of the group questioning him.

MR BUTHELEZI: He came there and he joined us. He stood there as we were washing the cars.

MR MALINDI: So as far as you are concerned, on this particular day, the day that you questioned him, he was not taken to any person, he just lay around the premises of Kwamadala?

MR BUTHELEZI: As we were there with him, in the evening a meeting was held.

MR MALINDI: The meeting was held in order to address the Nosenga issue?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the previous question.

MR MALINDI: Was this meeting held to discuss the Nosenga issue?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, and the other subjects were to be discussed.

MR MALINDI: Up until this meeting was called, you had seen Nosenga walking about the premises, he was not handed over to anyone?

MR BUTHELEZI: I can see Nosenga was shocked.

MR MALINDI: And at this meeting, was this meeting on the same day on which you first met Nosenga and you were part of this interrogating group?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR MALINDI: I don't remember if I've asked this question, where was this meeting held?

MR BUTHELEZI: The meetings was held at Kwamadala hostel at the stadium.

MR MALINDI: And who dealt with the Nosenga issue at this meeting?

MR BUTHELEZI: Mr Thembankosi Khumalo.

MR MALINDI: And Nosenga was at the stadium also?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he was also present.

MR MALINDI: And where had he come from before he presented himself at the stadium?

MR BUTHELEZI: I do not understand your question.

MR MALINDI: Did Nosenga go to the stadium like anyone else when the meeting was called?

MR BUTHELEZI: Nosenga went to the IFP Committee.

MR MALINDI: Did he present himself to the committee or how did he get to go to the committee?

MR BUTHELEZI: He came to the stadium with the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question - wasn't your question how did, did he go on his own to the Committee.

MR MALINDI: Yes, that was my question, Sir.

MR BUTHELEZI: People came to fetch him.

MR MALINDI: Who fetched him?

MR BUTHELEZI: I cannot remember those people.

MR MALINDI: You yourself did not see Nosenga being taken away and being taken to the IFP Committee?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MALINDI

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS CAMBANIS: No questions, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.

&#9;As at the 17th of June 1992, how many of you were occupants in the room that you were occupying?

MR BUTHELEZI: It is very difficult for me to say but it was a lot of us.

CHAIRPERSON: You're not being asked about the hostel as a whole, you're being asked about the room that you occupied.

MR BUTHELEZI: Do you want to know how many people occupied one room, is that your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Occupied the room which you also occupied.

MR BUTHELEZI: If I'm not mistaken I think we were about 10 or 13.

MR MAPOMA: And I take it that in the light of Damarra assertion that every man must go and attack Boipatong, all your roommates did participate in the attack, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And of all your roommates, it's only three of you, that is yourself and the two twins who did not attend the Ulundi conference subsequent to the attack, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And your roommates who attended the Ulundi conference, were they necessarily delegates for that conference or were they just attending the conference as interested persons?

MR BUTHELEZI: I think they went there as interested people.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you not attend the conference?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was not interested.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: This interrogation which was referred to which you had with Mr Nosenga, was that an informal situation or was it a formal situation, like a committee situation?

MR BUTHELEZI: We would ask questions randomly.

MR STRYDOM: Now when Mr Nosenga said that he was planted in the hostel as a spy and that he should look for places where he could plant bombs and all that, did you believe him?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we believed him because there were threats all the time.

MR STRYDOM: When you arrived at the hostel with Doctor and Jabulani, did you arrive by car?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, we used public transport, we used taxis and we alighted at the robots.

MR STRYDOM: You stated that the instruction to attack was given by Damarra, now if no order was given by him to attack Boipatong, would you have attacked Boipatong out of your own freewill?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, we would not attack.

MR STRYDOM: Did you realise at that stage that Damarra was one of the leaders at the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: You testified about three shots which you fired in the beginning stages of the attack and later on you went to Slovo Park, did you see any comrades in Slovo Park, or did you find any comrades in Slovo Park?

MR BUTHELEZI: The comrades at the street that intersects the Slovo Park and Boipatong, they jumped to the side of the shacks and they disappeared.

MR STRYDOM: After they disappeared, did you see them again?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, we did not see them again.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know or did you see where Doctor and Jabulani fired shots with their shotguns?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not see them shooting.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from yourself, Doctor and Jabulani, do you know if other people also had shotguns?

MR BUTHELEZI: The person that I remember seeing was Mr Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from him - let me ask you, did you know exactly what weapon each of the attackers had with them?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, what is the question?

MR STRYDOM: If he knew the weapons of each one of the attackers.

CHAIRPERSON: There were approximately 300 attackers the evidence indicates, so do you want him to tell us what each one of these men had?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, I know that the answer is obviously no, but if that is the situation he won't know if other people also had shotguns. That is basically the point I want to make. I can just put it straight away.

&#9;Do you know if some of the other attackers had shotguns with them?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, it was quite a large number of people. The only person that was in front of me was Mr Mkhize.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

MR DA SILVA: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: Just two or three.

&#9;Who related to you the event that Nosenga was on the stage at Ulundi? 

INTERPRETER: Will the speaker please repeat the question?

MS TANZER: Who related to you the event that Nosenga was on the stage at Ulundi?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was Joseph Radebe.

MS TANZER: Did Nosenga tell you about this when he returned from Ulundi?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, Mr Nosenga did not mention that to me.

MS TANZER: Did you not ask him questions about being on the stage in Ulundi? I mean it's quite an honour.

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not ask him question, the people were just discussing. I did not ask him a question.

MS TANZER: Did he ever tell you that at the hostel you people were thanked for the good work done in Boipatong, by Chief Mangasotho Buthelezi himself?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: Now on your version Nosenga joined the hostel after the attack, that is correct right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

MS TANZER: Would you say that he got his information relating to the attack from his fellow roommates and hostel dwellers?

MR BUTHELEZI: I think he got that information from the other hostel dwellers.

MS TANZER: Do you think that in fact he pieced together the attack on Boipatong from information he obtained, resulting in the statement?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MS TANZER: Then is it not correct that even if your version is correct and true, you are not relating an important fact to this Committee and that is that the police were involved in the attack of Boipatong?

MR BUTHELEZI: The police were not present and the soldiers were not present during the attack at Boipatong.

MS TANZER: Were you part of Victor Keswa's hit-squad or gang?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

MS TANZER: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax.

MR LAX: Thanks, Chair, just two quick questions.

&#9;You said that a number of you went out to the robots early in the morning on the 18th when you suspected some sort of an attack, did I hear it correctly?

MR LAX: How many of you went out there?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was quite a large number of people.

MR LAX: More than 50, more than 100?

MR BUTHELEZI: I think it was more than 100.

MR LAX: And how did you get marshalled out, who brought you together so that you knew about these things that you went out there? In other words, who called you together?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was Mr Damarra.

MR LAX: And that's when you were re-issued with your shotgun?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

MR LAX: The second issue was the question of Nosenga, you were questioning him and you said they came and fetched him to the Committee, do you remember that?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I do remember that.

MR LAX: Where did they fetch him from?

MR BUTHELEZI: He was fetched from the room.

MR LAX: So after you chaps had finished talking to him you went back to the room?

MR BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR LAX: Did you go back to the room after you had finished talking to him or asking him questions etc?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, we went back to the room.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: You say that you went to the hostel for the first time on the 17th of June.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Had you been to the hostel before that date?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

ADV SIGODI: Did you have friends staying at the hostel, did you know anyone before going to the hostel?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Who did you know before going to stay there?

MR BUTHELEZI: There's a gentleman called Tabang that I used to know and one gentleman called Bono, the other one was Faltein.

ADV SIGODI: Alright, but were you a frequent visitor to the hostel before staying there?

MR BUTHELEZI: I was not a frequent visitor there at the hostel.

ADV SIGODI: And before the attack were you active in politics?

MR BUTHELEZI: No.

ADV SIGODI: And this difference between you and Doti and Skosana, why do you think that it was a political difference?

MR BUTHELEZI: I knew very well that Skosana and Doti were well-known people at Zone 12, each and everyone at Zone 12 knew them at the time.

ADV SIGODI: No, but why do you ascribe your difference with them to being a political difference?

MR BUTHELEZI: It is solely because they said Stals was a member of IFP, that was Smith.

ADV SIGODI: But when you went to join the hostel you were not an IFP member.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I was not yet a member.

ADV SIGODI: You joined on that day.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes.

ADV SIGODI: Did you submit your name to somebody, saying that you were joining the IFP?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, though I cannot remember the name of the person but I was issued a card.

ADV SIGODI: Why did you join the IFP?

MR BUTHELEZI: It's because the people were accusing me of being an IFP member.

ADV SIGODI: Yes, but was it necessary to join as an IFP member on that day? Let me put it this way, you were only seeking refuge in the hostel, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SIGODI: It wasn't necessary for you to join as an IFP member on that particular day, is it correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, there was no need for me to join the IFP.

ADV SIGODI: Why did you choose that day to join and become an IFP member?

MR BUTHELEZI: In the township already they were accusing me of being an IFP member.

ADV SIGODI: Did you agree with the IFP policies? Did you know the IFP police?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, I did not know.

ADV SIGODI: Did you know who were the leaders of the IFP?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I knew the leader.

ADV SIGODI: Who was the leader?

MR BUTHELEZI: It was Doctor Mangasotho Buthelezi.

ADV SIGODI: Alright. And you say that when you joined the group to go and attack in Boipatong, you were not really keen or deep down in you you were not for the attack on the SDUs, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Will you please repeat your question?

ADV SIGODI: You say that you did not align yourself with the idea of attacking the Self Defence Units in Boipatong on that night? You didn't know anything about the attack before then.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I knew nothing about the attack.

ADV SIGODI: And so you only went there to attack simply because you were scared of threats by Damarra Chonco that you would be killed if you did not join the attack, is that correct?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;When Nosenga told you a different story than the one that he was sent by the ANC to plant the bombs, did these events happen when you were washing the car, on the same day or was it on different days?

MR BUTHELEZI: As I was questioning him as to what was the reason for him to come to Kwamadala hostel, we were still washing the cars and he told me that the people who were accusing him of being an IFP member. 

&#9;When I heard from Chunkie the following day he said the reason for that person to come to Kwamadala hostel was to assist the possibility of planting bombs. I went back to him and I said; Sir, I asked you the reasons yesterday and you told me that the people who were accusing you of being, you told me that you were being accused of being an IFP member whereas you know very well that you were there to check whether you can plants the bombs. And he told me that he was afraid to tell me the truth.

MR SIBANYONI: So when you confronted him of having told you a lie, was it also at the spot where you were washing cars?

MR BUTHELEZI: We were in the house, in the room when I was asking him that question.

MR SIBANYONI: Earlier in your evidence when you were asked about the shot you directed at a house, I heard you saying that you directing it at the dining-room, but under cross-examination you say you directed it at the bedroom. Did I understand you correctly?

MR BUTHELEZI: No, you did not hear me well.

MR SIBANYONI: You said Nosenga was left to live in the hostel because he was asked by an elderly person at Ulundi and he said that he was an IFP person, he was no longer ANC, did Nosenga become a member of the IFP?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, he became an IFP member.

MR SIBANYONI: At what stage, when did he become a member of the IFP?

MR BUTHELEZI: After the conference in Ulundi.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything arising?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: &#9;Chairperson, there's just one question and it's for clarification only.

&#9;Mr Buthelezi, the Mkhize that you saw armed with a shotgun, that's Bhekinkosi Mkhize, am I right?

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I saw him with an AK47 rifle.

MR LAX: Sorry, the question was, which Mkhize did you see with a shogun? We're trying to clarify which Mkhize you saw with a shotgun.

MR BUTHELEZI: No-one was armed with a shotgun, it was 

only a rifle.

MR LAX: So that was Bhekinkosi Mkhize that had an AK47?

MR BUTHELEZI: It is Archie's one.

CHAIRPERSON: "It's my co-applicant, yes." 

MR BUTHELEZI: It is my co-accused.

MR BERGER: I'm sorry, Chairperson. 

&#9;In answer to a question by your counsel under re-examination as to who else had shotguns, you mentioned a person by the name of Mkhize, and I want to know that Mkhize, is it Bhekinkosi Mkhize, your co-accused.

MR BUTHELEZI: Yes, I thought you were referring to a rifle. I just said he had a firearm, I did not know that he was referring specifically to the size of the firearm.

MR BERGER: Thank you, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BERGER

CHAIRPERSON: Anything arising?

MR STRYDOM: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Thank you, Mr Buthelezi, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;26TH JANUARY 1999

NAME:&#9;PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA

APPLICATION NO: AM 6121/97

MATTER:&#9;BOIPATONG MASSACRE

DAY:&#9;&#9;7

______________________________________________________

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, the next applicant is Paulos Mbatha.

CHAIRPERSON: Paulos Mbatha, yes. 

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will take a break now, we will come back at quarter to five.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: This afternoon we propose just hearing the evidence-in-chief of Mr Mbatha. This is Mr Mbatha, is it?

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the cross-examination can then commence tomorrow morning, unless of course counsel is enthusiastic to start immediately.

MR BERGER: Speaking for myself I ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

&#9;Mr Mbatha, what are your full names?

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Mvuleleni or Mvigeleni?

MR MBATHA: Mvigeleni.

PAULOS MVIGELENI MBATHA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.

&#9;Yes, Mr Strydom?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, just before I start, in the bundle you would only find two pages relating to this applicant and that is page 209 and 210. That is a request for further particulars. 

&#9;At the beginning of this session a bundle of documents in relation to this applicant was handed to the Committee and all other parties, which includes a Form 1, the annexure, his reply to the further particulars and an affidavit by the applicant. I suggest, Chairperson, that we mark the documents 210(a) to 210(i).

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Strydom, I'm still struggling to get hold of those documents. I know that they were furnished to us - oh, I beg your pardon, yes very well, I do have those documents now. That consist of Form 1 ...(intervention)

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson, if ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Which is dated the 7th of August 1998.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, Chairperson, my suggestion is that we mark Form 1: 210(a) (b) and (c).

CHAIRPERSON: Any objection to that course? So Form 1 will be marked - did you say ...

MR STRYDOM: 210(a) (b) and (c), and the annexure to that Form 1, 210(d) and (e).

CHAIRPERSON: Right.

MR STRYDOM: The further particulars, 210(f) and (g), and lastly the affidavit, 210(h) and (i).

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, very well.

MR STRYDOM: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: There is still no sign of Mr Sibongeleni Mkhize?

MR STRYDOM: Chairperson, since the beginning I've instructed the other applicants to try and get hold of him and to warn him to be here. At this stage there is still no sign.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Yes, very well, proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MR STRYDOM: Thank you.

&#9;Mr Mbatha, I want you to have a look at the so-called Form 1, I'm going to show you your signature on page 210(c). Do you confirm your signature?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And do also confirm the contents of this document as it has been translated to you?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: In paragraph 9.4 you stated:

&#9;&#9;"I had a spear. I was part of Chonco's group. I stabbed two people. The one person died, the other one ran away."

Do you confirm that?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: In paragraph 11(b) you stated:

&#9;&#9;"I heard for the first time of the attack on the 17th of June 1992, at the stadium. Chonco said that we should attack Boipatong because we had enough of the people from Boipatong."

Is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Now there's also an annexure to this Form 1, which is actually a reply to some of the questions in this document. Do you agree with the contents of the answers as they've been translated to you?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Do you agree with the political objective for the attack as set out in this document?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Is that the reason why you were part of the attackers on the 17th of June 1992?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Then certain questions were asked and answers were provided. These answers as they have been shown to you, are those the answers to the questions on page 209 and 210?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And just for the record, your reply appears on page 210(f) and (g). Then you made an affidavit on page 210(h) to 210(i), do you confirm your signature on the last page, 210(i)?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: And do you also confirm the contents of this document, the affidavit?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: In Boipatong itself on the night of the attack, can you just describe your role and what you did?

MR MBATHA: I went to work on the 17th of June, that was in the morning and I came back late in the evening and I found people coming out of the arena saying that they were going to Serele and I said: "Thank you for a long time I have been wishing that such a thing could happen, not knowing what to do seeing that I didn't have the power."

MR STRYDOM: Why did you say thank you, why did you want to go to Boipatong?

MR MBATHA: I was very angry in those days as a result of the Boipatong problem, the death of people day in and day out. My brother was killed there as well. Those were the reasons that bothered me.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from Boipatong, were you cross with the residents of other townships in the Vaal Triangle?

MR MBATHA: They too, we couldn't walk freely around the townships that were a distance from the hostel but because Boipatong was closer, killing us from just a distance, that is why I got so angry, overly angry.

MR STRYDOM: And why did you want to attack the residents of Boipatong, or let me ask you this, who in Boipatong did you want to attack?

MR MBATHA: I wanted the so-called defence. I didn't know this defence.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know who are the people who supported the defence, as you call them?

MR MBATHA: It was the community of Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Were you cross with the community of Boipatong as well?

MR MBATHA: Yes, but I very much wanted the actual people who were killing people in that area.

MR STRYDOM: Now just to move a step back, at the stadium before you went to Boipatong, tell me who gave the order and what was the order.

MR MBATHA: I did not get that but I later on discovered that it was Damarra. You see, I couldn't go to the stadium.

MR STRYDOM: Why not?

MR MBATHA: I had just arrived from work.

MR STRYDOM: During that period did you work a normal day shift or what?

MR MBATHA: Yes, it was a day shift. I was working during the day only, not in the evenings.

MR STRYDOM: Where did you work?

MR MBATHA: I working at the Sam Jam(?) contract.

MR STRYDOM: Whilst you were in Boipatong, did you see any police or military vehicles?

MR MBATHA: No, not whilst we were inside Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: Did you see any military vehicles or police vehicles at a later stage?

MR MBATHA: There is one vehicle that I saw coming from the Vanderbijl Park direction, moving towards Sebokeng.

MR STRYDOM: When did you see that vehicle?

MR MBATHA: At the time shortly after we exited from the township.

MR STRYDOM: Now in Boipatong itself you say that you stabbed two people, the one died and the other ran away, can you just give particulars of these instances, starting with the instance where you killed somebody?

MR MBATHA: The situation resulted from circumstances in which I found myself.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, just give more particulars about what you did in Boipatong.

MR MBATHA: My participation pertained to the killing of people or the dying of people at Boipatong.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbatha, we understand from the affidavit that is before us that you stabbed a person who died and that the other person that you stabbed ran away, is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What your counsel wants you to do is to tell us in your own words what you did in Boipatong, do you understand the question?

MR MBATHA: Yes. I went into a house, broke a window to gain entry seeing that the doors were locked. I found a girl who was trying to jump out of the window, I apprehended her and I asked her where the other comrades were and she said she didn't know. I stabbed that instant and she fell. I opened the wardrobe ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you stab her?

MR MBATHA: I stabbed her here. I then opened the wardrobe ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just indicate again where you stabbed her.

MR MBATHA: I stabbed her here.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, you are indicating just below the right ear in the vicinity of the collarbone, is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes, but then I pointed or directed my spear downwards.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know how old this girl you referred to was?

MR MBATHA: I would not say but she could have been my age.

MR STRYDOM: How old are you?

MR MBATHA: I am 35 years old.

MR STRYDOM: Why did you stab her?

MR MBATHA: We were frustrated by the fact that we could not locate the people we were looking for. I was therefore infuriated because these are the people who get so excited when we get killed, they are the ones who are always found in the forefront.

MR STRYDOM: When you asked her where the comrades are, did she say anything in reply?

MR MBATHA: She said she didn't know.

MR STRYDOM: After you stabbed her what happened to her?

MR MBATHA: She died.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know where in Boipatong this incident took place?

MR MBATHA: I am not quite familiar with the area, I was there for the first time that evening. I do not even know the streets, but there is one shop that is near the taxi rank and that is the area.

MR STRYDOM: Was that shortly after you had entered Boipatong?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: Did I understand you correctly, did this happen inside her house?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: After that, did you leave the house?

MR MBATHA: I opened the wardrobe.

MR STRYDOM: Yes, what happened then?

MR MBATHA: I found two males in the wardrobe hidden there. I then called upon Themba ...(end of tape) ... because they had trapped the doors to the wardrobe so that we could not open and they were shot from inside.

MR STRYDOM: Who shot them?

MR MBATHA: Themba Mabote.

MR STRYDOM: Do you know if they died or not?

MR MBATHA: They died because they collapsed and we could see their heads outside the wardrobe.

MR STRYDOM: Did anything further happen in that specific house?

MR MBATHA: No, we then left.

MR STRYDOM: Now you also said that you stabbed another person but this person ran away, can you tell the Committee about this incident?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I can.

MR STRYDOM: Just go ahead.

MR MBATHA: I found this person in this one particular house. When we left that house just about to enter another house I saw him coming out trying to escape. There was a Peugeot vehicle and he tried to conceal himself behind the vehicle. 

&#9;I noticed and I approached during which time he fled. I chased him and he jumped over a fence and I stabbed him as he was jumping the fence. He landed on the other side and he continued running. I don't know what became of him.

MR STRYDOM: This person, was it an elderly person, or can you just give an indication of the age of this person?

MR MBATHA: It was a person older than myself. Even though it was at night I think he could have been older than myself.

MR STRYDOM: Tell me generally, what was the situation with light in Boipatong, was it dark or could you see what you were doing, what was the situation?

MR MBATHA: It was dark.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from the two instances you've referred now, were you personally involved in any other instances where people got killed or injured?

MR MBATHA: I would say yes, even though I was not directly involved. I was doing that myself even though not directly killing someone.

MR STRYDOM: What do you mean, did you see other people doing things or what?

MR MBATHA: We went into a house which was empty. We searched inside and I found these people under a bed and I removed them. It was a male as well as a female. I pulled them out and Themba shot them.

MR STRYDOM: Anything else?

MR MBATHA: That's it.

MR STRYDOM: Just to move a step back, you referred to a Peugeot, do you know where this Peugeot was parked in relation to the journey you followed through Boipatong? Was it in the beginning of the attack when you saw the Peugeot or towards the end?

MR MBATHA: I saw it once we were inside Boipatong.

MR STRYDOM: And this last instance where you chased people which Themba shot, can you give any indication where in Boipatong this happened?

MR MBATHA: I am not in the position because I was just walking around not being able to tell in which area we were.

MR STRYDOM: You state in your affidavit that:

&#9;&#9;"I was not in Slovo Park."

Do you stand by that?

MR MBATHA: I don't know whether we went to Slovo Park because I do not know Slovo Park.

MR STRYDOM: Apart from what you've told the Committee now, did you see no further instances where people were injured or killed by any person?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR STRYDOM: Then you left Boipatong and you went back to the hostel, is that right?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

MR STRYDOM: After the attack did you go to the stadium or directly to your room?

MR MBATHA: I went straight to my room to sleep.

MR STRYDOM: I've got no further questions, Chairperson, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR STRYDOM

MS PRETORIUS: I've no questions, thank you, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PRETORIUS

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DA SILVA: May it please you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;The vehicle that you saw, the military vehicle, do you know the streets that surround Boipatong, do you know Frikkie Meyer Boulevard and Nobel Boulevard?

MR MBATHA: No, I cannot differentiate between the two streets. There is one that comes from Vanderbijl Park and the other one that leads towards the firms.

MR DA SILVA: The one that comes from Vanderbijlpark, is that the street that separates Boipatong from Kwamadala hostel?

MR MBATHA: I think so.

MR DA SILVA: Did you see this military vehicle on that street?

MR MBATHA: Yes, I saw it approaching towards Sebokeng on that very same road.

MR DA SILVA: May I just obtain instructions, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;The vehicle that you saw, what type of vehicle was this?

MR MBATHA: It was the kind of vehicle wherein you can see somebody or somebody's head peeping from inside. I don't know what kind of a vehicle it is, I don't know it's name really.

MR DA SILVA: Can you say whether it was a military vehicle or any other vehicle?

MR MBATHA: I saw it and concluded that it must be a military vehicle.

MR DA SILVA: What made you reach that conclusion?

MR MBATHA: I used to see that kind of a vehicle with soldiers inside.

MR DA SILVA: Did you see that this vehicle had soldiers inside?

MR MBATHA: No.

MR DA SILVA: Can you remember what colour the vehicle was?

MR MBATHA: It could have been brown.

MR DA SILVA: When you say it could have been brown you don't sound sure, could it have been another colour?

MR MBATHA: It was brown.

MR DA SILVA: At what time did you see this vehicle, can you estimate?

MR MBATHA: I am not binding myself insofar as time is concerned, we had already left Boipatong.

MR DA SILVA: Did you see this vehicle in the vicinity of the robots?

MR MBATHA: When I saw it for the first time it had not yet arrived at the robots, it was approaching the robots. On arrival at the robots it made a turn towards the Cape Gate firms.

MR DA SILVA: And when you saw it the first time, can you estimate how far it was from the robots?

MR MBATHA: I am not in the position to, but it was quite a distance.

MR DA SILVA: Would you say further than the length of this hall or are you not able to say?

MR MBATHA: No, it was a distance, it was quite a distance away.

MR DA SILVA: I have no further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DA SILVA

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS TANZER: Are you aware of a person at the hostel by the name of Andries Matanzima Nosenga?

MR MBATHA: No, I don't know him.

MS TANZER: You have been sitting in these proceedings and listening to the evidence and to the statements that Mr Nosenga has made regarding the night of the 17th and events that led up to the attack. Insofar as your version differs from Mr Nosenga's, and that is relating to the police presence at Boipatong and their assistance in the attack, what are your comments?

MR MBATHA: I don't know that, I just know that we conducted the attack ourselves.

MS TANZER: Is it possible that there could have been police present at Boipatong that night?

MR MBATHA: No.

MS TANZER: Did you attend any meetings prior to the attack being launched?

MR MBATHA: No.

MS TANZER: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS TANZER

CHAIRPERSON: Will this be an appropriate time to adjourn? Very well, shall we commence tomorrow morning at about 9 o'clock? Are there any objections to that or is that too late? Yes, very well, we will reconvene tomorrow at 9 o'clock.

&#9;Mr Mbatha, we cannot finish your evidence today, you will have to come back tomorrow morning at about 9 o'clock. Would you make sure that you are here by 9 o'clock?

MR MBATHA: Yes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

