


FOURTH SESSION /




FOURTH SITTING		:	NORMAL	:	16, 19 AND 20 MAY 1997
								









								
								

	VOLUME 5 /	1997







SPINE:	VOLUME 5 1997
















HANS\COV597



	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - TENTH SITTING DAY
	FRIDAY, 16 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 9:09 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

I wish to announce that some buildings within the precincts of the Legislature are presently without electricity.  It is the whole business area and not just the Legislature.  There must be some fault somewhere.  We are just fortunate that the chamber is not affected.  Subsequently there are some machines that are not operating.  Therefore members will have to bear with us.  We are trying to investigate.

I will therefore also announce to those members, who may not have yet received notices of a meeting of the Rules Committee at 10 o'clock this morning in the NCOP boardroom.  Will members of the Rules Committee please ensure prompt attendance in order to finish the business in time.  That is all.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

AN HON MINISTER:  No announcements by the Premier.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

The Minister of Health.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to table the Annual Report for the Department of Health.  The copies will be distributed to the members present, but for those that are not present it will also be distributed on Monday.  Thank you very much.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  There being no further tabling of reports.

	7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

The hon Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I give notice that I will move on the next sitting day of this House, and I will be discussing this matter with the Whips for possible voting on:

	That this House resolves to grant, following satisfactorily negotiated agreement, full, free and unfettered use of the chambers and committee meeting rooms of the Legislative Assembly Building - ~Ulundi~, and of the Provincial Parliament Building - Pietermaritzburg to the KwaZulu-Natal House of Traditional Leaders and to any official provincial gatherings of Traditional Leaders.

Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day.  It is understood tomorrow means next sitting day in our legal phraseology.  [LAUGHTER]

AN HON MEMBER:  Another Rajbansi convention.

MR A RAJBANSI:  

		That the pace of provision of housing in KwaZulu-Natal does not appear to be very encouraging in spite of the subsidies that have been approved;

	According to the National Minister of Housing who gave the following details in the National Assembly of the houses that have been built in the various provinces so far.

	Eastern Cape			:	20 732
	Free State			:	14 542
	Gauteng				:	71 276
	KwaZulu-Natal			:	19 027
	Mpumalanga			:	20 650
	Northern Cape		 	:	  7 831
	Northern Province		:	11 108
	North-West Province		:	21 937
	Western Cape			:	25 321

	This does not present a bright picture of the completed homes in KwaZulu-Natal, as compared with Gauteng's 71 276 and with the other smaller provinces;

	This House is pleased with the fact that our Minister has established a housing construction division that will play an active role to kick-start housing in our Province.

	THEREFORE it be resolved to request the hon Minister to expand this division so that the pace of the provision of homes in our Province can be speeded up.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  There being no further notices of Bills or Motions we will then proceed.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

VOTE 8 : LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HOUSING

For the purposes of this debate I therefore transform the House into a Committee of Supply in order to proceed with the debate in Committee.  I accordingly call upon the Deputy Chair of Committees to take over the Chair.  The House is transformed into a Committee of Supply.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE

MR T S MOHLOMI, THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES, TAKES THE CHAIR

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Committee of Supply resumes.  We are now going to debate the vote on Local Government and Housing, that is vote 8 and I wish to call upon the hon Minister Miller to address the House.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, colleagues in the Cabinet, hon members.

I commence by saying that I hope the empty bench on my right here is not sending me some kind of signal.  [LAUGHTER]  But I am very happy that two colleagues of mine on this side of the House are at least with me in the front bench here.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Once a year each Cabinet Minister gets an opportunity, without undue interruption and before a captive House, to honour a basic tenet of parliamentary democracy, namely to give account of the activities of the Ministry and the Department - surely the very foundation of political and parliamentary accountability.  Each Cabinet Minister gets an opportunity to provide the true facts about their departments, as opposed to the sometimes distorted perceptions which are entertained by some of the more fanciful members on this floor, including the member who moved the last motion, and which surface regularly throughout the year in the media and in other forums.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, I request the hon Minister to withdraw that statement.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear Mr Rajbansi please.

MR A RAJBANSI:  He has cast a reflection on me.  I gave a figure and I said as it appears.  Now that is a serious reflection on me and that is unparliamentary.  He says, "Including the member who moved the last motion", and this is cockiness at its height.  I request that that comment about me be withdrawn.  I will never accept it.  His whole first paragraph is an insult to this House.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the Minister withdraw that please?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  What is to be withdrawn, Mr Chairman?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I did not hear the first comment from yourself.

MR A RAJBANSI:  He named me.  "Including the member who moved the last motion".  So he mentioned me.  I moved the last motion.  Distorted perceptions.  He is accusing me of distorted perception.  I quoted the Minister of National Housing and I complimented this Minister.  He accused me of distorted perception.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Do you regard that as unparliamentary, Mr Rajbansi?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, very unparliamentary.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the Minister then withdraw that?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Will you give a ruling, sir, because I do not believe that I have said anything unparliamentary.  If you rule accordingly and it becomes a precedent in this House then I will withdraw it because if members have got no sense of humour whatsoever, Mr Chairman, how are we going to survive in this House.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am also of the opinion that there is nothing unparliamentary to that.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Also, Mr Chairman, this is an insult to the members of this House in his speech, where you are preaching reconciliation.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I do not think there is anything to be said to that.  We appreciate the comments from Mr Rajbansi, but I do not think we can go on with this debate.  Will the Minister continue please.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  One of the more surprising distortions about my Department, which I have heard stated in an even more surprising forum recently, is that the Department is failing to deliver!  I confess surprise at this particular distortion because I make it my business to keep the members of the House, the media, and the general public informed on a regular basis about the Department's progress and achievements.  To this end I would draw hon member's attention to the fact that I have distributed on each and every desk a further information package here today in an attempt to keep all members appropriately informed.

I want to place on record, at the outset, that the main theme of my address today is in fact "Delivery against all the odds".  The information I now place before this House will prove that the Department of Local Government and Housing is at the forefront of governmental delivery in this Province, despite major obstacles and restrictions which are being placed on its ability to deliver.

Let me first deal with these obstacles and restrictions, bearing in mind that I present them not as excuses for failure to deliver, but rather as factors which make the achievements of the Department of Local Government and Housing in the course of the last year, in my belief, very commendable.

With regard to organisational and personnel issues, last year I reported with some amazement exactly what I had been obliged to report to this House the year before.  In 1995 I reported that despite submitting proposed organisational and management post structures to the Provincial Service Commission (PSC) in December 1994, the structure in question had still not been approved and finalised.  I repeated this in 1996.  I repeat it now.  Many aspects of this issue were debated on Wednesday and I do not propose to repeat those here.  I do want to add just a little of additional information on this subject.

Firstly, lest the wrong impression was created on Wednesday, I wish to unequivocally state that the principle of an independent, impartial body being established to make recommendations on all aspects of the staffing of the Province is supported.  It is essential that an independent watchdog body be present, inter alia, to check that staffing of the civil service is not used for political patronage and nepotism, to monitor party political interference in staffing matters, to ensure that candidates for appointment are qualified for the post and to promote transformation and representivity.  That I want to again emphasise is supported.

I want, however, to say that such a body, besides being impartial, independent and objective, should also be helpful, co-operative, proactive and friendly.  It should facilitate, not obstruct the efforts by departments to get their structures in place.  I want to illustrate two of the problems that my Department has experienced.

My Department and I are adamant that given the size and complexity of the housing need in this Province, given the size of the budget which we administer and given the critical imperative to deliver on the expectations of the people that my housing staff structure must make provision for the post of Chief Director: Housing.  Please note, I ask hon members to take specific note of this, that every other province in South Africa has a Chief Director of Housing, yet in this Province the Public Service Commission refuses to approve such a post.

Secondly, my Department and I are convinced that given the desperate lack of development in the rural areas of this Province, given the total lack of capacity in rural communities to access development funding via the RDP and other agencies, and given the fact that some 400 rural communities are densifying at such a rate that they are actually becoming peri-urban in nature, that we need to appoint a Chief Director: Development Facilitation.

That term "Development Facilitation" confuses some people because they do not understand what it means.  I am going to call it something else today -  a Chief Director: Social Empowerment - because that is precisely what we try and achieve through development facilitation.  The object of such an appointment would be to strengthen the capacity of my Department, to help those who need help most, to help themselves thus giving a huge boost to rural development.  Again I record that the Public Service Commission has decreed that my Department may not create such a post, let alone appoint a suitable person to fill such a post.

I must also place on record, my Department and by implication my own deep disappointment that a Committee of this House can report to this House that after reviewing the case raised by the Department of Local Government and Housing that, and I quote:

	The Finance Committee became convinced that the Department's concerns were not justified.  

We are devastated that such a conclusion can be reached.  Even more so, when I inform the House that that conclusion is reached without any explanation or evidence being requested from the Department of Local Government and Housing.  We were not invited to put our side of the story and I would suggest that the cause of audi alteram partem has not been served.

Nevertheless, we conclude from that report that this House supports the attitude implicit in the actions of the Public Service Commission and that this House too believes that we should not for example have a Chief Director: Housing and a Chief Director: Social Empowerment.  Suffice it to say, my Department is comforted by the fact that the staff of the Commission believe our cause to be fair and just and recommended accordingly.

Perhaps this is one of the factors that has contributed to the decision by the Commission to suspend the Chief Executive of the Commission.  The Secretary of the Commission has been on suspension for the last eight weeks.  He is prohibited from attending meetings of the Commission or signing any documentation which is to serve before the Commission.  The legal authority for such action is questionable to say the least and legal opinions indicate the ultra vires nature of this action.

Those who are finally to solve this impasse will be interested to note that in every Province other than KwaZulu-Natal and at National level, the respective Commissions have delegated the power to appoint staff to the respective heads of departments.  These Commissions satisfy themselves that the final short list of candidates all meet the criteria and then leave the final choice to the department concerned.  How different is our experience in KwaZulu-Natal, where a body which did not interview the candidates makes final and binding choices often from outside the preferred candidates.  A very good example of this is the experience that my colleague the hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism has experienced.

My Department and I have a considerable store of evidence which refutes the content of the Commission's report in so far as it deals with the Department.  We look forward to making this evidence available to the Portfolio Committees that I understand are to deal with this matter.

However, we also realise that there remains little or nothing more that we can do and we will await with interest the actions by other instances to resolve this issue.  In the interim we will soldier on with the resources at our disposal in the hope that in the 1998 budget debate, I might be able to report that this House, which has made such a fine point about the Public Service Commission being accountable to it, will have found a way to empower my Department to do its job.  Suffice it to say too that as far as I and my Department are concerned, we believe that our approach from now on will be low key and we will simply await to see what transpires.

I want to now move on and deal with the issue of the severance package scheme.  I believe this scheme is yet another ill-advised scheme imposed by Central Government on this Province.  Certainly in the case of the Department of Local Government and Housing the result has been an exodus of senior managers in key components of the Department, and the collective experience of these managers will be impossible to replace in the short term.  To date the scheme has cost the Department 898 of its personnel and these include:

	    1   	Director
	   8   	Deputy Directors
	  11  	Assistant Directors
	  60  	Senior Administrative Officers/Administrative Officers
	157 	Chief, Senior Administrative Clerks 
	   4   	Senior State Accountants
	  21  	Planners/Land Surveyors/Industrial Technicians

Any personnel right-sizing, which is structured in such a way that some of the best, most able and experienced personnel are encouraged to leave, while the Department is unable to retire or retrench those whom it would really like to leave, has to be an unmitigated disaster for the organisation concerned.  It is my sincere hope that the Central Government will come to its senses quickly on this matter, and that the current severance package will be replaced with a carefully considered retrenchment scheme, the protestations of the unions and staff associations notwithstanding.

The last obstacle which has been placed in the way of my Department in its efforts to perform its functions effectively is the question of diminishing financial resources.  In last year's debate I pointed out that my Department had in reality received R28 million less than the previous year to render services on a greatly increased scale.  This year the situation is worse.  The operational portion of the Department's budget has been cut by R98 million, which represents a reduction of 12,1%.  I will elaborate further on the effect that this will have on the Department's ability to render services and perform its functions.

The point I really want to make, however, is that despite these obstacles and problems the Department of Local Government and Housing is delivering on its functions and services and operating as effectively as can be expected.  This much will become apparent as I review the progress which has been made by the various Branches and Chief Directorates during the course of the year, on the programmes and policy cum legislative issues currently being addressed.

Before I introduce the respective debates I want to record before this House my sincere appreciation for the support and co-operation I have received throughout the past year from the chairpersons and members of both the Local Government and Housing Portfolio Committees.  I believe the working relationship between my Department and those two Portfolio Committees is an excellent one.

I also want to acknowledge on the floor of this House the excellent service rendered by the Secretary of the Department, Superintendent General van der Walt, the two Deputy Director Generals and the entire management cadre, many of whom are sitting up there in support of the delivery of this budget vote today.  May I then move on to the Local Government branch and the Chief Directorate: Local Government Administration.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT BRANCH

CHIEF DIRECTORATE: LOCAL GOVERNMENT ADMINISTRATION

AMALGAMATION PROCESS

The amalgamation process of former KwaZulu Government and NPA towns has progressed to such an extent that the financial resources previously allocated to these towns and former black local authorities are now paid over to the local councils in 12 monthly payments.

The transfer of movable assets has almost been finalised after protracted investigations and negotiations.  As far as the transfer of immovable assets are concerned, the legal mechanisms are now in place and we should complete this process in 1997/98.

Regarding the transfer of staff, I am disappointed to report once again that progress has been far from satisfactory.  The main reason is that the National Government has not yet approved the necessary legislation to facilitate the transfer of public servants to municipalities.  At the request of the National Department of Constitutional Development, information on the financial implications of the transfer of staff and movable assets was calculated by my Department and provided to the National Department.  At the last moment, however, we have been informed that information on the financial implications of immovable asset transfer is also required before the transfer of staff legislation will be considered.  These delays, I am afraid, are causing us to experience increased levels of personnel difficulties and problems, which require continuous and regular workshops and negotiations with staff and labour unions alike.

PROPOSED LEGISLATION

The Local Government branch is currently dealing with two important pieces of legislation which will have major implications for Local Government in the Province.  These are:

1.	KWAZULU-NATAL LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL

	The KwaZulu-Natal Local Government Bill and the details of that Bill are in the printed document before members and what it will mean; and

2.	PROMOTION AND SUPPORT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT BILL

	The Promotion and Support of Local Government Bill which is a Bill designed to rationalise and amalgamate the activities of the Development and Services Board and the Townships Board to enable them to more effectively serve local communities, local councils and other bodies which require the necessary assistance because they lack capacity.

The latter legislation will enable the Department of Local Government and Housing to play a meaningful role in this process.  It is hoped that by the end of this year we will have a much clearer picture of which areas need to be developed, to what extent, and by what institution.

We also as a Department participated during 1996 in National legislative task teams, mainly to safeguard Provincial interests.  This participation resulted in the scaling down of intended comprehensive National legislation to a number of amendments to the Local Government Transition Act, 1993.  My intervention was also required in respect of certain proposed provisions that would have enabled a metropolitan council or regional councils to govern all other municipalities within their areas.  To this end I convened a meeting of representatives of all Local Government in the Province, where these provisions for a "super-city" concept were unanimously opposed.  The end result was that the KwaZulu-Natal proposal, namely that the division of powers under the Provincial proclamations be retained and only be changed by agreement, is now part of the amended Local Government Transition Act.

ESTABLISHMENT OF REGIONAL COUNCILS

Section 174 of the Interim Constitution contemplated the establishment of rural as well as urban Local Governments, thus paving the way for what is commonly referred to as wall-to-wall Local Government.

This concept was given effect to in the Local Government Transition Act, 1993, designed to provide for the restructuring of Local Government, and section 10(3)(i) of that Act empowered me to disestablish the existing Joint Services Boards and to establish in their place regional or district councils to exercise certain powers and duties in relation to certain Local Government functions for non-metropolitan areas.

Part VA entitled, "Rural Local Government" was subsequently added to the Transition Act to provide in detail for the introduction of rural Local Government as contemplated by the Interim Constitution.  Section 9D of that part fleshed out the programme for rural Local Government, including the representation on regional councils of the transitional local councils within their area, representation of the remaining area, that is the area not forming part of the area of jurisdiction of primary Local Governments within each region, as well representation of interest groups recognised by myself as Competent Authority for purposes of the Act.

By Proclamation No 54, 1996, the five Joint Services Boards were disestablished from 1 July 1996 and from that date in their place seven regional councils were established whose area of jurisdiction together cover the entire Province.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT FINANCE AND FINANCIAL SITUATION OF LOCAL AUTHORITIES

I want to say that local councils in KwaZulu-Natal were given an undertaking during 1995/96 that financial support for the operational expenditure in respect of former KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration towns would be continued at the same level for at least five years, provided adequate funding was received from National Government.  After five years the financial assistance will be reduced by 20% per annum, thus ending this support programme in a total of ten years.  We sincerely hope that in those ten years these local authorities will be able to become viable.

During the 1997/98 financial year the same level of financial support is proposed as last year.  The implication, however, is that in real terms, that is inflation adjusted terms, the financial support received by local councils is already substantially diminished.

The reality is that the transition process in Local Government in KwaZulu-Natal, as in other provinces, has put tremendous pressure on the financial resources of Local Government.

Local Government countrywide is facing a financial crisis of such proportions that I believe it may take decades to resolve, and I feel it is my duty to present hon members with a realistic assessment of the situation.

With the establishment of amalgamated, democratically elected transitional local and metropolitan councils, the income base of Local Government has in the majority of instances remained static while the demands for services, and improvements in the standards of services in disadvantaged areas, has escalated dramatically.  Static or declining levels of income, and escalating expenditure, is of course a classic formula for bankruptcy.  It is as simple as that.

An easy solution to the problem of course would be simply for local authorities to drastically curtail expenditure and simultaneously raise income levels.  But in reality, given the legitimate expectations of disadvantaged communities for improved services and a better quality of life in the new dispensation, to summarily cut the expenditure and hence to lower still further already poor levels of service would be to invite political suicide.  The only answer therefore is for local authorities to concentrate on raising levels of income.  Again, this is much easier said than done.

There are many factors which together have conspired to create a crisis in the income generating capacity of the newly amalgamated local authorities.  I just want to highlight four:

1.	The incorporation of formerly disadvantaged communities with a long history of non-payment for services for what was essentially political reasons, and the continuing culture of non-payment in these areas.

2.	The unrealistically low tariffs which have historically been the norm in many of the former township areas.

3.	The practice, particularly in former R293 township areas, of making up budget shortfalls with subsidies and grants from Provincial and Central Governments.

4.	Finally, the financial management problems being experienced in many local authorities, including a lack of credit control, poor short term cash management, lack of financial planning over the medium to long term, and institutional and administrative management problems.

So far the establishment of fully democratic elected transitional councils has not led to a significant increase in payment levels for services.  While some local authorities have reported an increase in payment levels, in other areas payments have remained static or have even dropped!  Many councils and Councillors have shown little inclination to address the question of non-payment and resulting budget shortfalls because they believe that State funds will be available to make up the shortfall as was the case in the past.

The reality of course is that neither the Central Government nor Provincial Government can continue supporting local authorities indefinitely.  I have indeed indicated that the financial support presently provided to local authorities by my Department is being phased out over a period of ten years.  The funds available for ad hoc projects and assistance to local authorities moreover, has been drastically reduced in the current budget which we are discussing.

To sum up, all indications are that there is a looming financial crisis of major proportions facing local authorities in the coming years.  The situation in KwaZulu-Natal is not as bad as in some other provinces, but nevertheless, the long term financial prospects of many of our local authorities remain a cause for serious concern.

PROJECT VIABILITY

In this regard, we have instituted a project known as Project Viability, and this is indeed proof of the fact that National Government itself is extremely concerned about the state of local finances and gave the lead in the establishment of Project Liquidity by the National Department of Constitutional Development through the Institute of Municipal Treasurers and Accountants.

The objective of the project, which is due to be renamed Project Viability, is to monitor the short term liquidity of all local authorities in South Africa.  The emphasis is to be placed on monitoring the short term cash flows of municipalities and identifying municipalities experiencing cashflow problems by means of various early warning indicators.

To date four local councils in KwaZulu-Natal have been identified as experiencing especially severe financial problems.  A programme is being prepared to conduct so-called "walk through" audits to identify the problems being experienced in these and subsequently other towns and to take the necessary corrective actions.

It has become clear that my Department, in order to execute its function of monitoring Local Government in terms of the Constitution, will need to put some additional financial controls in place during 1997/98.  These measures will, inter alia, be directed at deficit budgeting, timeous submissions of budgets, and the monitoring of budgets once submitted.

A new rates system has been proposed by the Portfolio Committee, but this proposal has not yet been accepted or implemented.  The Committee has in fact decided to revisit these rate system proposals during 1997/98.  I would add, in terms of a parliamentary question which I have already answered, that it is our intention to submit those proposals by the Portfolio Committee to the National Local Government White Paper process.

COUNCILLOR ALLOWANCES

The final issue relating to the financial situation of local authorities which needs to be brought to the attention of hon members is the question of Councillor allowances.

The Steyn report on Councillor allowances was rejected by the National Committee on Local Government (MINMEC), with my support, because of various anomalies in the model suggested which would have been impossible to apply in especially the smaller local authorities.

As a result of that rejection, MINMEC decided to appoint a technical task team to investigate all aspects of Councillor allowances.  The task team is due to submit proposals on the remuneration of Councillors to MINMEC in the very near future, with a view to such recommendations, if supported, being implemented on 1 July 1997.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT TRAINING

Local Government Training too is a very important part of the process of establishing viable, independent and democratic Local Government structures as a key objective of the current transition phase.

In line with current National policy, the KwaZulu-Natal Regional Training Committee is in the process of re-structuring to form a new Provincial Co-ordinating Training Committee (PCT), comprising 50% organised labour, and 50% organised Local Government.  This Provincial Co-ordinating Committee will in future give overall direction for training initiatives in the Province, with the co-ordination and support function to the PCT Training Committee being currently provided by the Provincial Regional Co-ordinator's office.  During the 1997/98 financial year, it is expected to transfer most of the training administration functions to the Training Board/Regional Training Board.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT ELECTIONS

One of the highlights of the last year's activities was no doubt the Local Government elections.  Nine months and R209 million later it is interesting to reflect on the events surrounding the 26 June 1996 Local Government elections contested by 32 political parties for 1 789 wards and 1 208 proportional representation seats.

The June 1996 Local Government elections in KwaZulu-Natal were without doubt the most fiercely contested and the most politically controversial of all the elections held in the nine provinces of the Republic.  Nowhere else was there the same level of antagonism and suspicion between the major political parties, nowhere else was there the same level of political intolerance and potential for politically related violence, in none of the other provinces was there the continuous legal and constitutional challenge to the electoral process, and the same degree of intervention by outside parties and Central Government in the election process.

Nevertheless, I am happy to report that we have indeed concluded a successful election.  I want to indicate to members that there is a very comprehensive report on the KwaZulu-Natal Local Government elections, 1996 and I have instructed that a further print run be made of this report so that every member can be given a copy of the report in all its detail.  I will not go any further now in this particular speech on matters concerned with the Local Government elections.

DEVELOPMENT FACILITATION

I come now to development facilitation which I think from now on we are going to call social empowerment.  The development facilitation or social empowerment component of the Local Government branch had an extremely successful year in 1996/97.  Most of the component's objectives set for the year were realised and other new challenges emerged.

The component's original focus of facilitating the establishment of development committees and building capacity amongst residents in disadvantaged rural communities grew in stature.  This focus took various forms and primarily involved community leaders, women, the youth and children, and assistance with disaster management, as necessary.  New and emerging activities concentrated on the promotion of adult basic education, generating the local economic development of communities so that they can progress towards increasing self-dependence and self-sustainability, and the provision of guidance and support in accessing outside funding for infrastructural and other development.

I cannot emphasise enough the need to help communities to help themselves, and I cannot emphasise enough again that I should be given the staff resources to be able to make this section of my Department really work, and it goes back to my opening remarks in this particular debate.

I am pleased to report that this component succeeded in the 1996/97 financial year in facilitating, in conjunction with the various development committees, an amount of approximately R25 million worth of projects, including road improvements, enhanced water delivery, the construction, furnishing and fencing of community halls, schools, clinics, libraries and creches.  The emphasis in these latter activities was to ensure that labour intensive work methods coupled with appropriate skills training were pursued - thereby providing employment opportunities and income for the residents.  Amongst the institutions providing funding for these projects and activities were the Development Bank of South Africa, Operation Jump-Start, Ithuba Trust, the RDP programme, the (former) Joint Services Boards, the Independent Development Trust, the National Economic Forum and Engen.

Again I must emphasise from that list that I have just read, that we actually have a component in our Department which helps communities access off-budget funds.  Helps communities access funds which are not provided by this Government and as such has a tremendous gearing up effect on the development activities in our Province.  So we provide skills and manpower to be able to use other sources of finances in the interests of communities.

In keeping with the current dynamics and priority foci of the Department of Local Government and Housing, this component is increasingly becoming involved in facilitating the delivery of housing and the promotion of Local Government structures in communities where such institutions are not yet established.  Clearly this involvement is not designed to overlap with the specific functions and responsibilities of the particular line function components of Housing and Local Government Administration.  Rather the Development Facilitation component, through the rapport and trust its field staff have established with communities, is ideally placed to initiate, facilitate and sometimes unlock community obstacles in the housing delivery process, as well as to facilitate the process towards meaningful participation of residents in Local Government structures.

I cannot emphasise enough the importance of this particular component in my Department in assisting communities' access or the services that are rendered by other components within the same Department.

It is anticipated that these two functions - in conjunction with that of community development and upliftment, will constitute the principal areas of focus for Development Facilitation in the 1997/98 financial year.  In this regard, it is important to note that considerable facilitation work has already been accomplished in respect of the housing initiative, with the Inland Region's component actively involved in facilitating approximately 15 different housing projects in the KwaZulu-Natal Midlands.  Also, with the forthcoming elections in 1999, the imperative to make an early start in facilitating the necessary training and skills towards autonomous Local Government structures cannot be overestimated.  The Development Facilitation component is currently gearing itself towards this challenge.

CHIEF DIRECTORATE ENGINEERING SERVICES

The Chief Directorate: Engineering Services in my Department has been assisting in whatever way possible with the handover of functions to the TLCs and Transitional Metropolitan Council in the Province, but this hopefully will soon cease.

The Chief Directorate also assists the Housing Branch to maintain Government rental stock, and it is the intention to hand over this function to TLCs, and ultimately to sell the rental stock in question to the lessees.

From a financial perspective for this particular Chief Directorate, the forthcoming year looks bleak in that minimal funds will be available for utilisation in the rural areas.  Additional funding will be available mainly from the revised RDP Programmes detailed elsewhere in this report.

At this stage, detailed project identification for the coming year has not been finalised, as nearly all the funding allocated to engineering services in Programme 2 will be expended on essential maintenance.  The final distribution of the remaining funds for capital projects able to be carried out in 1997/98 will be reported on in due course through the relevant Portfolio Committee.  I want to say that at best we will only be able to complete projects that we commenced in the past financial year.

The two remaining components of this Chief Directorate are the Architecture and Building Services Sub-Directorates, and the Training Division located in Hammarsdale.  The former is primarily funded by the Provincial Housing Board for the hostel rehabilitation programme, with a budget amounting to approximately R25 million per year.  This sub-directorate also gives architectural advice to head office, regional offices, transitional local councils and rural communities.  It also manages the library building programme of the Provincial Library Services amounting to R12 million per year.  These funds, however, do not appear on my budget - they appear on one of my colleague's budgets.

We have set aside approximately R750 000 for the training function in this Chief Directorate.  The Department intends to provide for its own training needs in the fields of basic building skills, bricklaying, plastering, painting, plumbing and electrical wiring of houses.

FUTURE INFRASTRUCTURE DEVELOPMENT

On this subject, on 1 April 1997 the New Consolidated Municipal Infrastructure Programme, known as CONMIP, was launched.  This Programme consolidates the installation of municipal infrastructure that is currently being provided for under the various RDP Programmes, formerly known as the Municipal Infrastructure Programme, Extension to Municipal Infrastructure Programme and the Bulk Connector Infrastructure Grant Programme.

This improved programme will provide grant funding for Bulk and Connector services to low income households to a basic level of service, and the rehabilitation of such infrastructure.  This programme is in support of the Housing Subsidy scheme which makes provision for internal reticulation services.

I then list the services that will be funded by the programme.  All the above services will be covered under a total grant of R3 000 per stand.  Stringent selection criteria have been determined to control the allocation of funds, and a new process of application has been established which effectively shortens the cycle of application by some 12 weeks.

CURRENT RDP PROGRAMMES

I move on to current RDP Programmes and draw the attention of all hon members to the table in the rear of the printed document which gives details of the progress we are making in that regard.

It is interesting to know that the Department of Local Government and Housing is currently managing an RDP fund of R636 million.  This fund is comprised of the three programmes which are listed.  Great strides have been made and considerable effort, resources and time have been invested by my Department to expedite these RDP programmes.

Currently 408 projects to the value of R589 937 914 have been approved, of which 102 are currently in construction, and a total amount of R60 976 157 has already been disbursed by the Province to the service providers.

Most of the Municipal Infrastructure Programme and Extension to Municipal Infrastructure Programme Projects will be completed by due date of September 1997, with a few exceptions overrunning to March 1998.  As I have indicated, appendix B gives a summary of the current status of the various RDP programmes.

WATER FUNCTION TRANSFER

Liaison with the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry continues on a constructive basis, with the principle contact area at official level being the Provincial Liaison Committee and on a political level MINMEC.

In terms of the Interim Constitution, the Department of Waters Affairs and Forestry were granted the right of ownership of the water related services operated by the former self-governing territory of KwaZulu.  The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, during the course of this past year, exercised his right to assume ownership of these facilities.  A process has now been set in motion to identify all employees associated with the water function for their eventual transfer to the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry.  I just record that this is a complicated function.

The proposal by the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry to once again transfer water from the Tugela River system to the Vaal River system has received widespread publicity in recent months, and I wish to record that we have played an active role and have facilitated two meetings between members of this Legislature and the Department of Waters Affairs to discuss this whole situation.

ELECTRICAL AND MECHANICAL

The electrical and mechanical division of my Department is presently responsible for the distribution of electricity in former KwaZulu areas as well as in former NPA areas.  In addition, the Directorate provides a mechanical support function regarding the operation and maintenance of plant and vehicles, as well as the operation and maintenance of the Department's radio communication network.

Under this paragraph I give considerable additional written information but suffice to say that we are involved in finalising negotiations at the present time for much of this function to be taken over by Eskom.

HOUSING BRANCH

I now want to concentrate on the activities of the Housing Branch.  In my budget address in this Parliament in June last year I expressed concern at the slow rate of housing delivery in the Province, although of course this was by no means a situation unique in KwaZulu-Natal.  At the same time, I announced that my Department and the Provincial Housing Board would be taking a number of initiatives to improve the situation.  I am pleased to report that these measures have collectively started to pay handsome dividends, and I can say with conviction that delivery is really set to take off during the current financial year.

Of interest to hon members, is the fact that on Tuesday of this week at the meeting of the National Council of Provinces, the whole issue of the statistics provided earlier on by the hon Mr Rajbansi was debated.  It became clear that the houses under construction concept is not similarly defined in all provinces and that in fact some of the provinces were using a definition and counting in such a way that had we used the same definition our figure would not have been 19 000, it would have been 35 000.  I merely place that on record before the House.

My Department's achievements in the field of housing must, however, be seen against the background of a totally inadequate top management structure, in the housing branch, for reasons which I have spelt out.  Although a functional structure within the parameters of the amalgamated structure, approved by the Provincial Service Commission, was implemented by my Department, the lack of four senior management posts is seriously affecting the performance of the Housing Branch.

I have already dealt with the question of the Chief Director: Housing and I add to that the need for a Director: Housing in each of the three regions that we have divided this Province into.

OVERVIEW OF PAST YEAR'S HIGHLIGHTS AND ACHIEVEMENTS

STATISTICAL SUMMARY: 1996/97 FINANCIAL YEAR AND TOTALS TO DATE

I will now provide hon members with a brief overview of the Housing Branch and Provincial Housing Board's achievements during the past year and other important housing related developments, before dealing with some specific initiatives which are currently being implemented.

The overview of the past year's highlights and achievements and the statistical survey I do not propose to read out to you today.  It is available for all members in the documentation.

HOUSING SUPPORT MECHANISMS

Under the whole question of housing support mechanisms, I however wish to draw attention to the fact that the Mortgage Indemnity Scheme was established to draw the financial institutions back into lending in previously red-lined areas.  The scheme is administered by the Mortgage Indemnity Fund from Johannesburg.  We in this Province mooted the idea of a provincial Mortgage Indemnity Forum to act as a communication mechanism between the Mortgage Indemnity Fund and the local communities and other role-players.  Membership of the Forum comprise civic, business, and Government institutions.  This partnership between Government and private sector has proven to be successful and as a result has been adopted as a requirement by all other provinces.

To date 87 areas in KwaZulu-Natal have been granted Mortgage Indemnity Scheme cover.  New loans to the value of R340,6 million have as a result been released in those areas.

In my address last year I also made mention of the National initiative to establish Housing Support Centres as a means of assisting individuals to negotiate their way through the maze that is the housing delivery process.

KwaZulu-Natal is fully supportive of the National policy in this regard and mechanisms are being put into place for the administration of subsidies in line with the uTshani Agreement and the National Guidelines for Housing Support Centres.

In further support of this concept, the Department has initiated a capacity building programme to handle an expected influx of applications resulting from this combination of Housing Support Centres and the growing popularity of the "people's housing process" at the low cost end of the market.

PROVINCIAL HOUSING BOARD

The term of office of the previous Provincial Housing Board expired on 30 September 1996.  The role of the Board is primarily to advise my Ministry on housing policy issues and to ensure that policy directives are implemented.  Furthermore, the Board is the instrument through which housing subsidies are allocated to individuals and developers, acting on behalf of groups of individuals, through project linked subsidies.

In order to streamline the operations of the Board, but at the same time retaining representivity, a new Board was reconstituted on 1 November 1996, and the number of members on the Board reduced from 18 to 12.  The 12 members are listed in your documentation.

It is interesting to note that in terms of proposed National legislation in the pipeline each province will be left to decide for itself whether or not to retain a Provincial Housing Board.  I am of the view that the Provincial Housing Board has played a very significant role in getting housing delivery off the ground in this Province.  The Board has furthermore been instrumental in ensuring transparency and equity in the housing delivery process.  For this reason provision will be made in the Provincial Housing Act for the continued existence of a Board in one form or another.

HOSTELS

The Board divides itself up into Portfolio Committees.  The first of these is the Hostels Portfolio Committee and the Board has approved funding amounting to R95 million for upgrading of all the hostels within the Province.  To date a total of eight hostels have already been upgraded.  The Board is presently involved in negotiations with local authorities to take over these hostels.

HOUSING SUPPORT PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE

The next Portfolio Committee in the Board is the Housing Support Committee.  This committee is instrumental in facilitating a people's housing process through the necessary funding.  To date the Housing Support Portfolio Committee has considered ten applications amounting to R683 000.

COMMUNICATIONS AND PUBLIC RELATIONS PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE

We also have a Communications and Public Relations Portfolio Committee whose duties I think would be self-explanatory, and a rural and welfare task team, the main focus of which is to facilitate and expedite housing delivery through the investigation of welfare facilities in rural areas where there has been no progress in the form of previous policies.  We also have a Bulk Services Task Team and a Township Establishment and Facilitation Monitoring Task Team.

JOINT HOSTELS SUMMIT

I also want to report that this Province hosted last year, in keeping with the Provincial peace initiative, a joint hostels summit.  This summit achieved a major breakthrough towards the normalisation of the hostels environment by means of negotiating a Joint Executive Summit of the National Hostel Residents Association and the KwaZulu Hostel Residents Association and this meeting was held in Port Shepstone in January of this year.

The primary theme of the summit was peace, development and administration at the hostels and the surrounding environment.  A strategy to workshop the following topics at the various hostels throughout the country was discussed with a view to holding a National conference.  The matters to be workshopped included:

-	conflict analysis
-	conflict resolution
-	educating for peace and tolerance
-	community policing and justice in hostels
-	administration

INITIATIVES TO BOOST HOUSING DELIVERY

I now want to move on to initiatives to boost housing delivery.  First and foremost we intend to restructure departmental institutions.

RESTRUCTURING OF DEPARTMENTAL INSTITUTIONS

In the early "teething" stages of the Provincial housing delivery programme there was a lack of co-ordinated and integrated control of all matters relating to housing within the Department itself.  I am pleased to report that this weakness has since been rectified, and that a high level Management Committee has been put in place which will ensure co-ordination between Provincial Housing Board initiatives, the RDP and the direct Departmental initiatives.

Three Departmental Regional Co-ordinating Committees have been formed.  The one will be chaired by the Deputy Director General: Housing in the northern region, the Deputy Director General: Local Government has been pulled into this housing initiative for the inland region and the Secretary of the Department himself will chair this meeting in the coastal region.

ADVERTISING OF STATE LAND FOR LAND AVAILABILITY AGREEMENTS

I want to move on to the question of State land being made available for housing.  In the June budget address last year I informed the House that my Department was going to commence with direct interventions, in conjunction with the private sector, to get housing projects off the ground on State owned land.

This involves the Department making land available to private developers for immediate development through Land Availability Agreements.

A typical example of this approach can be seen in the Lovu Phases 3, 4 and 5 developments, where the developer Condev, with the financial backing of Nedcor, has been awarded the rights to develop 5 500 units over five years.  Construction of this exciting project, has already commenced.

The Waterloo project to the north of Durban is currently being advertised along similar lines.  The Waterloo project was made up of seven phases, and phases 1, 2 and 4 were the phases that were developed as part of the old dispensation.  We therefore intend for phases 3, 5, 6 and 7 which have not yet commenced in any shape or form, comprising 2 800 residential sites, to be awarded to a developer or a consortium of developers following the same principles that we used for Lovu 3, 4 and 5.

ASSISTANCE TO LOCAL COUNCILS

We also intend to concentrate a great deal in the coming year on assistance to local councils.  In future local councils will assume a far greater onus for housing development.  It is common knowledge, however, that many of the councils in question, especially the smaller ones, do not have the resources and expertise to manage large scale housing developments.  My Department accordingly will provide assistance at the request of the councils concerned through the Provincial Housing Delivery Programme.

One example of this is the Etete Phase 2 project in the Dolphin Coast Transitional Local Council where land being acquired by the Department of Local Government and Housing will be made available to the council, which will then proceed with the development.

SHORT TERM MEASURES AND SHORTENED PROCEDURES

We have also decided to introduce certain important short term measures and shortened procedures.  Two mechanisms in particular have been implemented in this regard.

1.	Assisted self-help housing; and
2.	Direct housing contracts.

Special Tender Board permission to use shortened procedures has been obtained, and proposals for top structure contracts invited.  Construction of between 3 000 to 5 000 houses is expected to be achieved under this initiative in the very near future.

The Department has initiated these mechanisms through the ~Sakhasonke~ Joint Venture Programme.

SAKHASONKE JOINT VENTURE

In my speech last year I indicated that my Department was proposing to establish inter-disciplinary project teams to get low cost housing development going at selected sites throughout the Province.

To date the Sakhasonke joint venture has identified approximately 120 projects with a potential to deliver approximately 81 000 housing opportunities.  Of the 120 projects, 15 projects are either well advanced in terms of planning and design, or infrastructure services have already been installed.  The 15 projects translates to approximately 8 260 housing opportunities.

On 4 April 1997 tenders closed for the construction of incremental housing in the 15 project areas.  Some 170 tender submissions from 30 different contractors were received and the adjudication process is underway.

To provide maximum choice for the communities in the 15 fast track project areas, the Department has invited proposals for the management of self-help building processes on these projects.  This approach provides communities with as wide a choice as possible in terms of the housing delivery option.

We have also invited proposals for assisting self-help housing "service providers" via the media.  Proposals closed on 14 March 1997.  Adjudication of the proposals has commenced and negotiations with beneficiary communities and implementation will in fact commence shortly.

Bearing in mind the time constraints which I am conscious of, I want to say that I have given in the printed document considerable additional information on land and legal issues and how we intend to deal with them.  In particular, there is information there which deals with the greatly improved situation now in regard to the Ingonyama Trust Act.


LEGISLATIVE ISSUES AND DEPARTMENTAL OBJECTIVES FOR THE FORTHCOMING YEAR

I want to say that the Draft Housing Bill formulated by the National Department of Housing has been discussed extensively and should be presented to Parliament shortly.  It is anticipated that the Act will be promulgated in the second half of the year.

In this Bill provision is made for State-owned housing assets to be transferred to local authorities, and for the loans taken by local authorities to be written off.  The income derived from instalments, rentals and the sale of properties is to be used by local authorities for housing development in their areas of jurisdiction.  I believe that this is a move in the right direction because ultimately the provision of housing is a local authority function.

The National Housing MINMEC, in this regard has recently approved guidelines for the accreditation of municipalities in terms of the Interim Arrangements Act.  I also give considerable additional detail on the whole process of how local authorities will be accredited.

FINANCIAL ALLOCATION FOR 1996/97

I want now just to deal with the financial allocations for 1996/97 and I start with those for the Housing Branch.

Housing funds are made available in two ways: by means of voted funds from the Administration, and a capital allocation from the National Department of Housing for housing subsidies and projects.

VOTED FUNDS

The Housing Branch of the Department has been allocated an amount of R53 million for the 1997/98 year.  R34 million of this amount is voted in programme 1: Administration for the operational expenditure of the Branch, that is for salaries and wages, administrative costs, stores and equipment etcetera.

The balance of R18 million is voted in Programme 5: Housing, of which R8,8 million is for Housing Delivery, that is for professional services such as Sakhasonke Joint Venture, and 10 million is for Housing Support Centres.

HOUSING FUNDS

In the 1997/98 year we expect to be awarded an estimated 39 000 subsidies to the value of R469 million by the National Department.  With an expected carry-through of R121,9 million from the 1996/97 financial year, we have an amount of R590,9 million available in 1997/98.

That is roughly R50 million a month and I have set the branch that target.  I am pleased to say that as I speak to you today we are well on that target in regard to actual expenditure per month.

CHIEF DIRECTORATE: LAND, PLANNING AND SURVEY

I also give an extensive exposé of the activities of the Chief Directorate: Land, Planning and Survey.  This is a very important and integral part of my Department which is involved in the entire development planning process of the Province.  The exposé I give is in the nature of an annual report in the sense that it gives you in great detail, for the information of members, all the activities of that particular branch.

The fact that I have little to say about this particular branch now is both a factor of time constraints and of the fact that this branch is working extremely well, and has achieved a great deal in the past year, but has not been involved in any way in controversy and/or lack of ability to carry out its particular functions.

May I say before I move on to the next subject, that in that regard we will be implementing in the coming year, through this particular Chief Directorate, the elements of the National Act, the Development Facilitation Act and also of course our new Development and Planning Act, which I hope will be serving before this Legislature perhaps even as early as our next session.

GENERAL: MEASURES TO ELIMINATE THEFT, FRAUD AND CORRUPTION

I do want to deal at some length, however, on a general issue and this is one of the measures to eliminate theft, fraud and corruption.  I want to say that this Department has been at the forefront of the effort by our entire administration and all other departments as well in trying to make sure that we eliminate this scourge from the activities of the Department.

On a regular basis press announcements have been made and press releases have been made available to members where we have taken positive action.  I want to highlight two particular instances.

By taking over the management of our own motorcar fleet, this Department has managed to effect savings on a monthly basis of a quarter of a million Rand per month.  Tighter controls and an intimate knowledge of exactly what vehicle is where, who is driving it and what it is doing has contributed to that enormous saving.  Much of that additional cost we know was caused by fraudulent purchase of fuel, fraudulent repairs to vehicles, fraudulent purchase of tyres and like related matters.  I am very happy that I will be presenting to the Provincial Cabinet in a matter of weeks a formal memorandum that will seek to make permanent the arrangement whereby my Department and perhaps other departments will follow suit where we manage our vehicle fleet.

I also want to say that this very morning under this particular subject, the major investigation we are dealing with of fraudulent and theft activities in a component of our engineering services in the greater Pietermaritzburg area, known in the media as the Bailey case, that in fact we are so well advanced on that that we will be able to recover something between R6 and R10 million of fraudulently gained benefits, be they in cash or in kind by that particularly fraudulent scheme that was going on, and in fact we are right on top of that issue and we hope at the end of the day that the actual loss to the Province is going to be minimal.

POST ESTABLISHMENT

I want to deal quickly with the post establishment of the Department.  The Department's present amalgamated structure consists of a total of 12 096 posts.  Of these 7 223 are filled, and I list the various top ranks.

We are currently involved in an investigation to correctly place staff on the amalgamated structure, and to draw up proposals for a rationalised structure for the Department.  Some 4 700 of those staff members will ultimately be transferred to TLCs and TMCs when the necessary legislation is in place to facilitate this transfer.  I also want to draw attention to the fact that justification for a severance package takes two forms, either the post in question is abolished in its entirety, or the posts are filled with applicants who will enhance representivity.  We screen very carefully candidates for these posts to assess their suitability and competence.

I just also want to record that quite clearly we believe as a Department that we will be able to make a significant contribution to the overall effort, not only by our Province but Nationally for the down-sizing of the public service as a whole.

1997/98 BUDGET

I then also list here the details of the 1997/98 budget.  The programmes and the amounts of money are there for all to see.  I want to draw attention, however, to some particular highlights of this budget and in doing so I would draw all members' attention to the information package that they have received, and to document at the back of the information package, where a table is given of the schedule of rural development projects which we undertook in the 1996/97 year.

The major change in my budget, Mr Chairman, hon members, lies in the fact that that particular section of my budget which I utilised last year, R131 million of it, for development in rural areas is reduced in this coming year to R19 million.  It means therefore that I will not be able to initiate a programme such as the one that appears in that schedule in the forthcoming year.  I think what we need to do, and I have already given the necessary requests to my Department, is that we are going to make a very serious attempt to put up business plans and so on to tap into the R158 million contingency fund that is kept in reserve by the Department of Finance.

It is, however, important that people should realise that the responsibility and the drive to really get rural development going, is one that is going to have to be co-ordinated and rationalised.  I want to say that in that process my Department has very considerable capacity and expertise to assist.  The only thing we are going to lack in the coming year is the funding to in fact carry out that job.

I do not intend to actually read out to you all the details of the budget but in summary then I just want to draw your attention to the fact that in the documents before you, you see exactly how we arrive at the situation that the operational budget of the Department is in fact 12% less than it was the previous year.

I have already given the explanation of what we did with that money previously, and the fact that we will not necessarily be able to achieve that level of capital development in rural areas in the coming year.

Mr Chairman, it is therefore my pleasure in closing to propose that this House accept the budget of the Department of Local Government and Housing.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I have an announcement for members of the Rules Committee that the meeting is proceeding.  Could they please go and join the meeting.  The Secretary of the committee is having a problem in that he does not have a quorum.  So will those members please join the meeting.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Naicker to address the House for 15 minutes.

MR S V NAICKER:  Firstly, on behalf of the Housing Portfolio Committee, Mr Chairman, it is fortunate to have competent and committed members.  Two of the Portfolio Committee members, Ms Barrett and Mr Y S Bhamjee, also serve as members on the Provincial Housing Board, which contributes towards closer co-operation between the Portfolio Committee and the Housing Board.  I am not totally certain if this wisdom is in actual fact correct, in the long term.

In spite of Legislative programmes, the Portfolio Committee has held 11 meetings, covering a wide variety of housing related issues, and also visited the Homeless Federation in Piesang River.  I want to place on record therefore the Committee's appreciation and thanks particularly to senior officials, to Mr van der Walt, the Secretary General and both the Deputy Director Generals, Mr Nico Malan and Mr Johnson and Mr S A Bedderson, the Director of Housing for their continued co-operation.

For the purpose of closer co-operation, perhaps if the presence of the Minister in Portfolio meetings could be improved it would help tremendously.

Some of the important items on the agenda, discussed throughout this long period, has been departmental structures, Cabinet decisions and Commission decisions, long strategy, finance, State feasibility for additional land etcetera.  I also place on record my thanks to the Committee and the Committee clerks for their contributions.

Coming back to the debate, I just want to advise that I am personally not satisfied that an important debate of this nature of Local Government and Housing is a combined debate, today on a Friday.  The comprehensive report given to this House by the hon Minister will not be justified within the period that has been given on this speakers' list here.  The question is, do we merely come here to speak to each other?  If one really dissects this report of the hon Minister, then it requires workshopping.  The broad masses are not fully aware as to what really transpires and what contributes to the non-delivery.

This happens to be the third Housing budget presented before Parliament.  Period wise, we are entering the fourth year of tenure of Parliament.

Time has proved that the last thing we should not do as a Government, as I have mentioned previously, is to promise.  Today we find ourselves between promises and performance.  Whereas, the houses built thus far is a reflection of our poor performance.

I am courageous enough to defend the Ministry.  The failure is not attributed to the Minister of the Department.  With my background knowledge, I have been here from the very inception, concerned about departmental structures, which I emphasised at the last debate and the Minister stated:

	Where the Department has failed to deliver, this has been invariably the result of policy restrictions imposed on it by Central Government legislation.

Which is quoted in the last report.  The prognosis for real delivery is very bleak.  This is the result of National policies.  While we all realise that the country's financial resources are limited, surely we should endeavour to use those funds available to the greatest advantage of the underprivileged.  Instead, provinces are warned by the Chief Executive of the National Housing Department that if they should dare to spend one cent more than the allotted subsidy on an individual, he will personally stop funds for the province concerned.

Unfortunately, this is not the attitude that is expected from National level.  Yet, I have it on good authority that some provinces blatantly ignore this injunction, and that it is an open secret among certain large developers, that all sorts of tricks are employed to circumvent this bureaucratic injunction.  These developers allege that the Central Department and the Ministry are fully aware that the limits are exceeded, but they blissfully act as if in ignorance.

Politicians in this Province should stand up together, with one voice, as we have done throughout these debates with an emotional attachment to such issues as housing and towards the improvement of the quality of our people, that we use our funds to build houses.  That we go to the homeless and openly confess that the current policy cannot effectively deliver housing, and that we shall in consultation with communities devise ways and means to actually deliver housing.  The process will not be as fast as we had hoped.

In other words, to deliver on promises that were made three years ago, together with a changed, more realistic approach to deliver housing, and the approach must be completely devoid of bureaucratic self-importance.

In the 1996 budget speech, the hon Minister stated the following, which I want to quote:

	I regret to report that one year later the Department structures and post establishments have still not been finalised.

The Minister was honest enough when he further stated that we must ask ourselves, whether we can afford the luxury of a bureaucratic crocodile.  Have we come to this Legislature to establish that that crocodile has become a larger crocodile.  We now find ourselves in a very, very difficult situation.  The Sunday Tribune Herald quoted a politician, which I have to state, by the name of General Bantu Holomisa who said:

	I have now got a parking space, the parking space of non-delivery.

I want to make it very clear, irrespective of joining anybody, let us selfishly ... 

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member may not raise a question, he is not in his seat.

MR S V NAICKER:  The point I am trying to make, Mr Chairman ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  Can I raise a point of order from this seat?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You cannot raise a point of order, you are not in your seat.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Because is that not distorted proportions.

AN HON MEMBER:  Get back to your seat man.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You may continue, Mr Naicker.

MR S V NAICKER:  The point that I am making is that let this Province not provide a parking space for anyone as a result of non-delivery.  That is the important point.

Let us come back to one of the most important issues which was debated, that is the Public Service Commission.  I have, from day one, been constantly concerned, discussed and have been at cross-purposes with the administration as far as the departmental structures are concerned.  Simply, sir, if your kitchen is not equipped, naturally there will not be the delivery to the dining-room.  That is the bottom analogy of the entire issue.

It is now the fourth year today.  We have heard in this debate about the Commission and about the Commission.  The Cabinet approved staff structures with the Chief Director of Housing and three Directors, one each in the three regions.  When the Commission was requested to advertise, they refused to advertise, claiming to be the highest decision making body in staff matters.  To overcome this deadlock, the Department has been seeking judgment.  Never heard of.  Within our own family there is conflict.  This conflict naturally has a detrimental effect on those very silent people who we are supposed to be serving.

The Minister, during the Commission of Administration debate, stated that 883 staff left with severance packages or to other pastures.  May I say, the Green Paper on the Public Service Commission states very clearly, the caption is, "The customer must come first", and goes further to say:

	A fresh approach is indeed an approach which puts pressure on systems, procedures, attitudes and behaviour within the Public Service and re-orientates them in the customer's favour.

This does not mean introducing more rules and centralised processes or micro managing service delivery actively, rather it involves creating a framework for the delivery of public service.  That is the importance of this matter.

Therefore the documentation presented by the hon Minister this morning, relative to the Commission, is something that this House should support.  We cannot perpetually and continuously experiment socially.  We must be able to move towards the actual delivery.

Coming back to the housing support centres, as an established policy.  How many centres do we have and the personnel to man such centres, comes back to departmental structures.  We have gone out of this country, established such policies and attempted to implement such policies but we just cannot get it off the ground as a result of the departmental capacity.

Let us come back to land affairs.  The land legislation and tenure, as the hon Minister mentioned, a solution has to be found in giving people tenure or changed policy to communal or tribal tenures.

The former KwaZulu-Natal Land Act, Act 11 of 1992, which was withdrawn to National level and has not been reassigned to the Province as yet, also caused delays in the township establishment process.  I do not want to delve into why it was withdrawn, and why it has not been referred back to the Province within a given period.

Let us look at the Ingonyama Trust which was topical.  Problems were experienced with the Ingonyama Trust, which hampered progress, which has not been operational, and also froze our operational fund which pertains to urban and rural development.  In the circumstances we commend, I must say again, we want to commend the Department at long last for its endeavours to overcome this problem, by at least securing a delegation to deal with land related matters in the former R293 towns.  This step has indeed unblocked plus/minus R150 million allocated money, which impacted on our budget.  The delays, the escalation of cost, the suffering of the broad masses must be taken into account.  Again we come back to bureaucratic crocodiles.  I want to implore upon the Department that fast track housing development should be a priority.

The hon Minister is fully aware of the thousands of service sites that we have, left over by previous administrations.  The millions of Rands that have been ploughed into the soil.  Guidelines, I understand, towards the selling prices of those State finance service urbans, according to reports, and recognising extremely complex circumstances impacting on the price of serviced land, the National Housing Board seemed to have revised a policy.  Has the Minister any information as to what the revised policies are.  Perhaps he can make an announcement in this House because this is a burning question, when we have got money by the millions ploughed into the ground?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One and a half minutes.

MR S V NAICKER:  Then the hon Minister again in last year's debate, had the moral fortitude to take the initiative to establish the Sakhasonke project.  Naturally even the Sakhasonke project can be established overnight on that serviced land.  It is a book entry as far as that is concerned.

Over and above that, I am pleased that the hon Minister stated that the National Minister of Housing, stated in her budget speech that a draft Housing Bill will be presented to Parliament, as soon as the parliamentary calendar allows.  Thus empowering Provincial and Local Government to administer National Housing programmes for the first time.  Provincial Government and municipalities are best positioned to identify the housing needs of the people living in the area they are nearest to.  The point at which people interface with Government in articulating the needs and the problems should expedited.

I may go a little further, which was a bit of unpleasant reading:

	November 24, 1996.  KwaZulu-Natal can expect a housing shake-up in 1997 after a dismal performance with just 35% of its housing budget, was actually spent between April and October.

This statement from the Minister of National Housing.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR S V NAICKER:  Thank you, sir.  But I want to make an urgent appeal, an ardent appeal that we collectively find ways and means, that within the period, to establish as many homes as possible.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Naicker.

MR I C MEER:  On a point of order, sir.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, Mr Meer.

MR I C MEER:  I want to raise a matter which affects the dignity of this House.  It is Friday today.  It is a Sabbath day for at least two people that I see present here, who will be absent just before 12.  Why is there such a poor attendance?  There are only eight people from the IFP present. 100% from the Democratic Party.  Total absent from the PAC.  Unless there is an influx towards the Islamic faith and people have started observing the Sabbath which starts at about 12 o'clock, rather early, there must be some explanation.  I was going to rely on the leader of the House to tell us.  He is also absent.  I cannot even ask the Whips, they are absent.

Therefore, sir, I am going to be absent just before 12 o'clock and Mr Rehman is going to be absent, we have a valid reason.  We have been listening carefully to what the hon the Minister said.  But in the corridors of power, there are rumours that this Minister is being extensively boycotted.  I want that rumour to be removed by saying that perhaps there are other reasons.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we request the Whips to go and call the people in, those who are here.  I see that there are very few Whips here.  Oh, the Whips, I understand, are in the Rules Committee, or some of the Whips are in the Rules Committee meeting.

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Chairman, I was going to report, there is a Rules Committee meeting, and the leader of the House and the Whips are in the precincts of Parliament.  They are busy with the work of Parliament.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, I may add to this.  Notwithstanding the fact that a few members are in the Rules Committee, the point raised by Mr I C Meer must be of serious concern.  We are Legislators.  We should set an example.  There are members who do not care whether they attend sessions or not.  I think especially when a Minister of the importance of Housing and Local Government is delivering his budget speech, members of his own party should ensure that a good example is set.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, members, for those comments.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Mr Chair, if I could comment as well from the National Party.  I believe it is totally incorrect that a Rules Committee should be sitting during our budget session, on an important vote such as this.  We wish to register our protest to it.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, thank you, hon members.  I do not think there is anything we can do about the situation right now.  We will have to wait until the Rules Committee meeting is over.  We can then request the Whips to bring in whoever is here to be in the House because they have come here for participation in this debate.  I do not think there is much we can do right now.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We cannot adjourn the House unfortunately.  We have to continue with our debate.  We will see as time goes on if people do come in.  At this point in time I wish to call upon the hon member Ms Barrett, to address the House for 13 minutes.

MISS B BARRETT:  Chairperson, hon members of the House.  To what I consider the singularly most important vote of the Province, it is always much more difficult for me to prioritise the areas that should be highlighted in the time frame provided.  I can only respond to this debate as someone intimately involved in the housing delivery programme, who deals with day to day problems as they emerge.  I too am a recipient of national housing policy, and to our Department's method of implementation.  The only difference is that I am a member of Parliament, accountable to the public for the expenditure of this budgetary allocation and I therefore request that the hon Minister takes this into account in response to the issues I raise.

To reiterate the concerns of our hon Premier, the housing delivery performance of this Province is an enormous problem, that will take the best will and effort of the most committed individuals a very long time to overcome.  Of the last financial year's total budget allocation of R1,151 billion, which includes the total approved overcommitment, KwaZulu-Natal expended 29%, amounting to R341 million.  A substantial portion of this expenditure is sitting with conveyancers, still waiting to be paid out to beneficiaries.

I do not want to get into the argument of comparing our delivery performance to that of Gauteng or Western Cape.  We need to remain focused on our own problems and why the money allocated to committed Provincial Housing Board projects is not reaching the ground.

In last year's debate I highlighted the main causes of these blockages, and essentially the nature of the problems have not changed.  In summary, these can be listed as a serious lack of capacity within the Department, the inflexibility of the subsidy implementation tools, problems related to land assembly and land availability agreements, the poor functioning of the Provincial Deeds Office, and the high risk to private developers.

The Housing Department has found it difficult to respond to this crisis due to their serious lack of managerial capacity.  Hence, the Department was fully justified in seeking outside expertise to fill this capacity void.

However, the critical question for Parliament whenever consultants are appointed, concerns the nature of such appointment and whether effective monitoring mechanisms are put into place to ensure the public is getting value for their money.  This was the motivation behind my questions to the hon Minister with regard to the appointment of the Sakhasonke Joint Venture.

In the last financial year the consultants to the Sakhasonke Joint Venture were paid a total sum of R7,404 million over a period of eight months, consultancy fees amounting to just short of R1 million a month.  In the current financial year Parliament has been requested to approve a further allocation of R8,850 million for the same set of consultants.  If Sakhasonke has taken this money to substantially unlock housing delivery in the Province, then this joint venture initiative needs to be commended, but the "actual delivery of housing" referred to by the Minister in response to my questions needs to be measured in real financial terms.  In short, what is the role played by Sakhasonke to accelerate housing delivery in terms of the actual subsidy amount paid out to beneficiaries, the yardstick for success in the eyes of the public and the end user?  These figures have not yet been provided.

It is this kind of information that we in the Portfolio Committee, as custodians of taxpayer's money, need to be able to monitor on a monthly basis, and therefore it is not an indictment on the Minister when requests for this information are made.

Turning to the Minister's budget address, reference is made to the tendering of housing projects and the establishment of a five year and two year housing business plan, to assist the Department in project identification and prioritisation, and the setting of delivery targets.  In this regard, I would like to appeal to the hon Minister that Parliament and the Department strives towards a closer working relationship, where fundamental decisions of this nature can be made in consultation with one another.  To quote the White Paper on Housing:

	The participation of stakeholder groupings and structures of civil society in the process policy development and public fund allocation is believed to be of critical importance to secure the necessary commitment of all relevant parties for strategies and policies adopted.

This was considered essential so that "balanced and practical advice and decision making can be achieved".  Whilst low cost housing delivery remains one of the greatest challenges to government, all areas of potential conflict must be avoided.  Policy decisions made on the desirability or otherwise of proposed provincial housing programmes must be made in a fair, equitable and transparent fashion, with the highest level of participation possible from key stakeholder representatives, which I consider that we are as elected representatives of this Province.  We cannot afford to slide back into "old style government" administration where key decisions were left to the sole discretion of senior officials or executive heads, and I know the hon Minister would agree with me on this point.

I would like to briefly touch on the issue of Local Government accreditation, and the statement made by the Minister that "ultimately the provision of housing is a local authority function".  Whilst I agree with the essence of this statement, I firmly believe that a clear distinction must be made between the different roles of Provincial and Local Government.  I fully recognise the integral role to be played by Local Government in housing development, but I believe this role should be defined within the ambit of implementing provincial housing directives.  As stated in the Province's response to the National Draft Housing Bill:

	Clearly the co-ordination and monitoring functions of housing delivery and setting of housing delivery goals in a province, should reside at Provincial level.

This sentiment is reiterated in the Housing White Paper which states that:

	Provincial Government has a critical role to play in ensuring effective and sustained delivery at scale.

In terms of the accreditation arrangements to local authority a great deal of concern was expressed at our Portfolio Committee, with reference to that clause in the Draft Housing Bill which permits municipalities thus accredited to:

	Exercise such powers and perform such functions and must carry out such duties of the Provincial Housing Board as may be necessary for the administration of such National housing programme.

Although partial decentralisation to metropolitan local authorities may be possible, I firmly believe that some form of neutral and transparent provincial body or structure, capable of taking a broad, co-ordinating approach to housing development and delivery in the Province, is essential.  At present this function is suitably placed in the hands of the Provincial Housing Board of KwaZulu-Natal, the appropriate statutory, advisory and policy execution body for housing in the Province, with key stakeholder representation.

I would like to conclude by stating that the responsibility for implementing the housing policy in a way which does produce satisfied beneficiaries lies primarily with the Government.  We need to drive this process and put an effective monitoring system in place, in order that blockages can be dealt with as soon as they occur.  This monitoring system also needs to deal with the satisfaction of beneficiaries, and the sustainability of the housing products offered to our poor - a failing with the present system.  If beneficiaries are being exploited through the delivery of inferior materials or core structures, Government must be prepared to intervene on their behalf.

We cannot afford a crisis at the next major flood or cyclone, where all housing top structures produced to date disintegrate or collapse.  Within the present financial restraints, methods must be found to protect our disadvantaged communities.

In closing, I support the budget before us.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Barrett.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Mvelase who will address the House for ten minutes.

MR V V MVELASE:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  Following my colleague who has presented a wonderful speech and proposals and everything, I also align myself by rising, and raise my concerns regarding housing delivery in the Province.

Before I raise my concerns, it will be unfair to ignore the wonderful work that has been done by the Province's Department of Local Government and Housing, which performed so well in such a difficult situation.

I wish to congratulate the hon Minister Mr P M Miller, for an excellent prepared report, and good performance, despite major obstacles and restrictions which are being placed on its ability to deliver.  This Department is one of the most complicated departments.  It needs highly experienced men and women, who are brave enough to face difficulties and criticisms to prove their ability.

I regret with concern to be informed that the Department is losing senior managers with experience in key components of the Department.  It could be a task to replace them.  In any job, to lose an experienced person is a setback.  In the report I read about factors which created a crisis in the income generating capacity of the newly amalgamated local authorities, which needs our input as community leaders.  As I said yesterday during the Works budget speech.  Let us work together and forget party politics.

Our people are waiting to see great things happen, as they were promised.  We have got about 700 days more to come to reach election day.  Good results are expected before the day of an election.  As I said, I rise to raise my concern regarding house delivery.

I wish to say that, there is a growing realisation that the R15 000 per household subsidy does not go far enough to address the housing needs of our disadvantaged communities, whilst the housing policy states that the Government subsidy allocation must be seen as a housing opportunity to assist individuals towards the progressive realisation of a completed home, this does not cater for the harsh reality of the living conditions of the majority of our disadvantaged population.

This vast majority falls within the subsidy bound from the unemployed with no income at all and to those households earning less than R800 per month.  With this meagre income they must feed and clothe themselves and their dependents, with no money left to contribute towards the reconstruction of their homes.  Where are they to find the additional R5 000 to R8 000 needed to build a sustainable structure for their families, over and above their subsidy?

The formal banking sector will not provide home loans to people earning less than R1 500 per month.  The only exception, the KFC does provide loans to people earning in excess of R700 per month who have secure formal employment.  However, the top borrowing interest rate of 21% is charged, which in many instances renders the minimum monthly payment unaffordable.

In this regard, Provincial Local Government can apply a leading role in the provision of low interest micro loans to the lower income groups, ensuring that the residual for a housing top structure is sufficient to build a basic home.

In order to make this recommendation realisable, the associated financial risk implications need to be reduced and avenues found for funding.  Firstly, this Government needs to implement a fair and effective policy to deal with non-payers who fail to make alternative financial arrangements to repay their loans.

Rather than duplicate collection structures, it would be more cost effective if the issuing and administration of micro loans becomes the responsibility of the Local Government, who could combine this function with the collection of rates and service charges.

The funds needed for this recommendation may be impossible to source from within the Department's limited budget.  Appeals could be made for start-up capital from National RDP funds.  Appeals could also be made for foreign funding, provided the Province provides the guarantee for such loans, as well as the infrastructure and costs administration.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I believe that we in the Province need to explore more innovative ways to house the poorest of the poor and our contribution to this effort needs to be increased.

I thank you, Mr Chairman.  Finally, I support this budget.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Mvelase.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Bhamjee to address the House for 12 minutes.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Chairperson, we wish to extend our congratulations to the Minister for his excellent in-depth report.  However, there are certain "fine" steps we would like to take up with the Minister.  Nonetheless it is a report that one could come to terms with on the nature of the work that he and his Department are doing.

However, in response to my hon colleague Belinda Barrett's questions to the Minister on the project of Sakhasonke, we must declare that we find that the responses are nothing more than an excuse by the Minister, to justify a bad decision that can be described as nothing more than a continuation of the delivery programme of the ~apartheid~ era.

The hon Minister stated that he made use of the private sector for delivery, due to the lack of capacity within his Department.  We recognise that fact.  Yet at the same time it is incomprehensible that he; the hon Minister, announced this housing delivery programme without notifying key partners within Government, namely the Portfolio Committee and his professional team, the Provincial Housing Board.  It was only after the Sakhasonke initiative was announced that the Provincial Housing Board was informed and hence, the Minister's protestations in respect of capacity must be viewed cynically.

In respect of beneficiaries and the poorer communities, they have yet to see the benefit of the Sakhasonke initiative, despite expenditure of over R7 million that has been used purely for project management fees and for financial empowerment of consultants.  The Minister has yet to provide evidence that these fees are justified in terms of concrete work that has been undertaken by any of the project management teams.

The Minister goes to pains to explain to us, in his response, that:

	Costs incurred cannot be linked directly to expenditure in respect of housing delivery, but will open opportunities for vast expenditure on the actual delivery of housing in the future.  It is well-known that project management costs are inversely related to physical production.

In each page of his response the Minister makes this point.  Yet, at no point does he provide evidence of actual delivery or of physical production.

In respect of the appointment of the project management teams, it is no less transparent that in the ~apartheid~ era in which firms were secured procurement of work without having to go through a transparent tender procedure or to justify their competency.  The lack of delivery is nothing less than a comment on the competency of these firms to deliver, and it must be made known that a number of community organisations are not supportive of the Sakhasonke initiative because they are not sensitive to the needs of the poor communities.

There is an obsession with the number game and this programme typifies this trend.  Large scale development is fine but it has inherent dangers in it and therefore needs to be monitored and critically evaluated.  Row upon row of box houses all identical in a sterile environment, miles from place of work and social opportunity is not what we want.  This was exactly the type of development that the past Government was doing and a look at the social and economic problems that exist now in the townships clearly indicates that the situation could worsen.  Look at the social and economic problems that exist now in the townships, that this type of development is topped down and runs a serious risk of extending the crisis of non-payment to newly developed areas.

Recently we saw a classic example of how this kind of programme translated itself in Pietermaritzburg.  Land was identified by the Sakhasonke managers, and the TLC was told that they must accept the project or the funds will be diverted elsewhere.  All of this tit-for-tat was being played out in the press.  In the meantime there are people living on the parcel of land in question and it seems that it had not even dawned on the actors that they should be consulted and brought on board.

This is indeed a sad reflection on the programme and the state of affairs in the Province.  How can you possibly decide to proceed with a development project for a certain area when there are hundreds of families living on that land?  Such an approach is both arrogant and presumptuous, and guaranteed to make whatever comes out of it flawed from the outset.  It is the obsession with numbers that leads to this kind of mess.  Let us critically evaluate this programme and make sure that we do not fall into the traps of the past.

Within this background, Government is at pains to question why the private sector is not keen to be involved in the public sector driven housing initiatives.  The reasons are simply:

1.	Unilateral and arrogant actions such as that displayed when the project was announced in conjuring up the Sakhasonke initiative with a few of his advisors and private consultants from the past.
2.	A lack of wide consultation and transparency with the vast pool of resources in the housing field that we have both from the ~apartheid~ days (in terms of administrative capacity), and the post-~apartheid~ era (with the conceptual capacity).
3.	The lack of co-ordination and consultation even between various departments, notwithstanding the Minister's position in terms of lack of capacity.

It can be viewed that this entire Sakhasonke initiative at one level does not enjoy the support of the communities or authorities because of the approach that has been adopted.  The lack of delivery on actual project implementation and the vast amount of money that is spent on the project management fees resulting in the financial enrichment of a few consultants.

An initiative such as the Sakhasonke housing delivery, would require the resources in the form of a partnership between the private and the public sector.  The lack of morale within the private sector who perceives the entire initiative as a monopoly of "the old boys club" perpetuated during the ~apartheid~ era will not see co-operation from essential sectors of the private sector or from other authorities within the public sector.

For example, it has come to my notice that although ZAI has been appointed as project managers, they had lacked the capacity and they had to use the services of another project management company that is, AMV Project Managers.

If the Minister can justify the fact that ZAI was given the task based on competency and capacity, then I beg the Minister to explain why ZAI had to sub-contract the task.  Would it not have been justified to have awarded the contract directly to AMV Project Managers?

The question around the ~Sakhasonke~ initiative in respect of the procurement procedures, the delivery and the actual progress demands that the Minister provides full details.  In addition, we are requesting that an independent inquiry should be undertaken to investigate this initiative right from the start in an attempt to honestly establish whether the only beneficiaries of this housing delivery programme are to be the private sector consultants.

We are aware that the Minister intends to spend an enormous amount of money in the ~Sakhasonke~ project initiative, and we in Government must not allow a project which is evidently not well thought of, that is ad hoc, and that is questionable in its capacity to deliver, to continue unabated and unchecked.

A clear monitoring and auditing system for this project outside of the Minister's Department is required, because of the current problems that need to be investigated, and implemented.  The fast tracking delivery in a whole host of other areas also need to be investigated and perhaps it would become part of the whole programme.

Now to focus a bit on the question of the poorest of the poor.  We find that there has been a slow movement in terms of providing housing opportunities in relation to housing support networks, as far as the Province is concerned.  We know for a fact that over the years the poorest of the poor, through their own initiative, managed to house themselves through many creative ways.

If one has to look at the informal settlements and shanty towns, it is obvious that people contribute to meeting their own housing needs.  Individuals, families, and communities come together to plan and design their home requirements according to their own affordability.

However, the poorest of the poor need to improve the general quality of life and require financial assistance.  While poverty and powerlessness characterises this community, the problem is magnified by a perception that persons who live in such dire circumstances are incapable of identifying priorities and seeking solutions.

The poor generally are characterised as follows:

-	Persons who do not have access to land or security of tenure
-	They have no provision of piped water, sanitation, drainage and electricity
-	Live in cramped, overcrowded dwellings
-	Have no income or very low income
-	And those who will never get access to formal credit

Banks, contractors, and building material suppliers are driven by a profit motive.  They perceive that housing for the poor is a high risk market with low returns.  Such institutions have thus far expressed gross reluctance to take the risk and build for the poor and homeless.  In this context perhaps there needs to be a reorientation as far as the Sakhasonke project is concerned.

As I said earlier, the poorest of the poor and the homeless, fend for themselves.  The housing subsidy scheme is aimed at providing a housing opportunity, thereby giving the poorest of the poor an opportunity to improve their general quality of life.  It is now clear to us that the subsidy is not enough for sites and services and top structure in terms of one's humble expectation of a home, and that people need to rely on their own savings, and their own housing support initiatives.

On the other hand, there are numerous examples which suggest that the subsidy added to sweat equity, can realise a humble vision of a home.  The Government needs to encourage and promote community housing initiatives.  All over the country we are beginning to see shining examples of what is possible in this sector.  These initiatives must be nurtured and supported and not undermined.  Let us encourage mutual help (voluntary family commitment to housing construction usually arranged in groups of families where the houses are allocated after construction so as to gear in commitment, capacity and cost savings). ~Nthuthukoville~ is one example in Pietermaritzburg, and the local contractor builder housing option is another in southern Pinetown.

Let us also encourage the introduction of savings and loan schemes for the very poor.  We are seeing these options now being introduced by the Homeless Peoples' Federation and other groups such as the Urban Sector Network.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  These schemes are opening up a whole new opportunity for finance and housing development that the banks have never been able to touch.  This process should be commended and supported.

This sector offers huge potential for delivery at scale, as it can gear in beneficiary commitment, socially, financially and voluntary construction processes.  

The South African Homeless Federation has a membership of over 50 000 families and have built over 700 houses without Government aid.  They have built houses between 45 and 70 square metres.  In terms of what is being produced, the private developers cannot compete in terms of the quality of these houses.  Members of the Housing Portfolio Committee visited Piesangs River in Inanda and were overwhelmed by the Peoples' Housing process.  The driving force in this self-help scheme was women who represent almost two-thirds of the heads of the households in South Africa.  The National Government, impressed by the savings driven housing programme, donated R10 million to support such initiatives.  This resulted in consolidating the uTshani Fund, (a revolving fund mechanism), which offers communities the opportunity of managing savings, development capital and loans linked to subsidies.

Finally, Mr Chair, on the question of empowering of Councillors on housing and modes of housing opportunity, the National Minister is very keen on ensuring that the Local Governments get involved in it.  I will touch on that later on.

In conclusion, I think that the Sakhasonke programme needs to be re-visited.  We need to visit it with the intention of making it more accountable, so that all role-players can have a say.  The Minister is committed to housing.  We recognise that fact, but by the same token you cannot be a captain without players, and if you do not bring the Portfolio Committee on board, if you do not bring the other members of Parliament on board and key political organisations, then I trust your Sakhasonke programme is going to be heavily criticised.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Bhamjee.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Bartlett for seven minutes.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, we are debating about an exceedingly big budget.  I have a document here which shows that a total amount of R1,695 billion has been approved, of which R455 odd million has been spent, leaving a balance of close to R1,2 billion.  This is a lot of money.  In addition to it, there is further R100 million in our budget which has been called the "peace fund" to help people to rehabilitate their houses which have been destroyed by political action..

Having said that, my main concern today is the matter the Minister raised, and that is the non-payment of rates.  It is clear from what he has said that many local authorities are approaching bankruptcy, and if this continues still more will face bankruptcy.  We have a culture of non-payment which is threatening the very lives of all our citizens.

We have got to ask ourselves why and how this has developed?  You know, Mr Chairman, there is a very true saying that an Englishman's home is his castle.  I want to make it quite clear, I am not an Englishman; I am a South African English-speaking South African, but my roots extend to the United Kingdom.  This is a very true saying.  It not only applies to Englishmen, it also applies to black South Africans.  I have seen their homes.  Some of them are indeed their castles and they try hard to look after them.

However, what do we find in a many townships today?  I visit a number regularly and they are rundown.  There are a lot of burnt down houses and streets are not clean.  Quite frankly, Mr Chairman, they are in a total mess.  One must ask what is at the root cause of this problem, this cancer, that is eating at our townships.  I would like to submit that perhaps one reason is the lack of security of tenure of homes.  If a home is a person's castle, it can only be so if he has security of tenure.  Only then is he prepared to invest in it, to clean it up, to make it look nice and to be proud of it.  Only then is he really proud of his community.  If he has no security of tenure why should he pay the rates, why should he clean it up, why should he look after it?

We have a culture in many of our townships borne of either criminal or political activity.  Houses in many townships are often the basis of trade, or a method of trading favours by warlords, either political or criminal.  These warlords create no-go areas in these townships.  No one can deny that this is correct.  There is no respect for property owners.  There is no respect for their property, there is no respect for the local authority and there is no respect for the community and this, I believe, is the root cause of the non-payment of rates.  This is my view and I am putting it forward to hon members, they can argue it later if they wish.

AN HON MEMBER:  What a lot of bull.

MR G S BARTLETT:  The hon member says, "What a lot of bull".  Mr Chairman, at this very time people are being chased out of their homes and their homes burnt down.  They are being shot and killed because of the political activity of certain members of certain political parties.  There are no-go areas in places like Mpumalanga, like Fredville and elsewhere, where people are dying nearly every weekend.  A lot of this has to do with politicians and their political intolerance.  Certain political bosses try to maintain their power over the people through intimidation which goes right against the Constitution, because in the Constitution, as far as political rights are concerned, it says, section 19(1)(b).

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  Order please!

MR G S BARTLETT:  It says:

	Every citizen is free to make political choices, which includes the right to participate in the activities of, or recruit members for a political party.

The Constitution goes further:

	There shall be freedom of movement and residence and every citizen has a right to enter, to remain in and to reside anywhere in the Republic.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  Order please!

MR G S BARTLETT:  You know, Mr Chairman, I have been in this political game a long time.  When you start to get your opposition who are guilty of these things squeaking and chirping as they are doing, it means you are hitting right at the heart of the problem.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR G S BARTLETT:  So to these hon members to my right, I want to say five masked men beat up a member of the National Party in the last three weeks, purely because he belongs to my party and he was told, "You have got to get out of the township".  This is the truth.  These hon members may chirp as much as they like but this is one of the root causes of the culture of non-payment of rates.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Chairman, if you owned a property and you knew that your freedom to reside on it, and your freedom to follow your own political persuasions depended on the whim of the warlord of the area, would you take care of your property?  Would you pay the rates, Mr Chairman?

This is the truth of the matter and if the truth hurts, so be it.  I am saying, if we want to build our communities; if we want to build townships and local authorities the people will be proud enough of to cause them to pay their rates, then we have to get rid of this culture of using houses for political domination over people.  Some time ago, I had an ANC member phone me, asking whether I could help a particular person regain her property, which happens to be in an IFP area.  Unfortunately, the house concerned has since been burnt to the ground.  I know what I am talking about.  I know what I am talking about, Mr Chairman.  So these hon members must look to their own consciences.

AN HON MEMBER:  We are.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Then put it right.  Put it right by telling your bosses, like Nkabinde, like Shabalala to stop using people's homes for their own political or personal gain.  This is the root cause of many problems in this Province.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  Order!

MR G S BARTLETT:  It is quite clear I have made my point.  Mr Chairman, I wish to say to the hon Minister, if he wants his local authorities to have their rates paid then we in this Parliament, and here I agree with Mr Mvelase when he says let us forget about politics and let us build together.  The warning he gave us about the election should be heeded.  We have here a budget of over R1 billion with which to build homes.  Will many of these homes be burnt to the ground during the next election campaign as political bosses start to use homes as favours to those, who become their "storm troops" who march in the streets toyi-toying and intimidating people?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR G S BARTLETT:  I think I have made the point.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Bartlett.  Good timing.  Next on the list of speakers will be the hon member Mr Rehman who will speak for ten minutes.  Can we have order please in this House.

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Chairman, hon members.  I wish to congratulate the hon Minister of Local Government and Housing.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Point of order, Mr Chairman.  Point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we take the point of order.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  I thought the next speaker was Mr Dlamini.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  There have been some revisions on my list.  Please bear with me, hon members.  Mr Dlamini will follow Mr Rehman.  Mr Rehman is going to church and in the interests of respecting our cultures and everything, I have allowed him to speak first before Mr Dlamini, but he is next on the list.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Oh, it is just that we have not been informed, Mr Chairman, but we accept that.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, there have been many changes and people have not been informed.  You may continue, Mr Rehman.

MR R F REHMAN:  Mr Chairman, hon members.  I wish to congratulate the hon Minister of Local Government and Housing, Mr Peter Miller, for his presentation of his budget.

More than a thousand days have elapsed since our new found democracy, yet the housing issue in this country appears to have received scant attention.  The delivery of five million houses over five years, was yet another electioneering ploy of the ruling party of this country.  What have they to show for the past three years?  Nothing but progress and development in the Gauteng Province.  Is the progress and success of the new democratic Government to be measured against the growth and development in Gauteng alone?

The National Minister of Housing, in a parliamentary debate on 7 May and the MEC for Housing in Gauteng, in a TV talk show, Two-Way, boasts of the achievements in the delivery of housing projects in Gauteng.  Little if no mention was made of our beloved Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  Our Province, like other provinces, is in dire need of housing.

According to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, and in terms of the Bill of Rights, "everyone has the right to have access to adequate housing.  The State must take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to achieve the progressive realisation of this right".  What noble ideals.  Yet this ideal appears to be a myth rather than a reality in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

Despite all odds, the Housing Ministry in this Province is to be congratulated for its transparency.  There are not many capital works projected for this financial year, but given sufficient funds, this Ministry possesses the capacity to deliver effectively.

We, the multi-party members of the Portfolio Committee, pledge our support to the hon Minister of Housing, Mr Peter Miller.  We commend him for taking the Provincial Service Commission to the High Court, because the Commission allegedly refused to advertise State jobs, despite having Cabinet approval for the move.  It is most disconcerting to all of us in this Province for personnel to be in acting positions for almost two years.  Why the delay in appointing personnel in substantive positions?

A drastic cut of 12% in this Housing budget meant that assistance to emerging local communities would be cut almost entirely.  An amount of R131 million was spent in the rural areas as compared to the allocation of R19 million.  This enormous amount could only be used to maintain existing projects and no new capital works could be undertaken in these areas.  The budget cut also implies that the already  beleaguered local authorities will not receive any ad hoc assistance to deal with unforeseen circumstances such as the recent floods in Margate.

It is both frustrating and embarrassing to our Provincial Minister as well as the members of the Portfolio Committee, when one reads in the press that the National Minister of Housing has arrived in the Province to unveil a new housing project.  This I find most despicable.  We must not try to gain political mileage at the expense of protocol.

On 29 April 1997, at the Public Accounts meeting in Pietermaritzburg, it was heartening to hear the Auditor-General, Mr Chris Foster, compliment the hon Minister of Housing and Local Government, Mr Peter Miller, for introducing transparency and accountability in his Department.

We, the members of the Portfolio Committee, can proudly boast that we have one of the most experienced Housing Ministers in this country.  If only the National Ministry of Housing could take cognisance of his ability, and support him, we could realise the desired outcome of this Ministry.

The majority of the population who might not have suitable housing are still the bane of our communities.  At least, they have a semblance of permanence where they stay.  In the past they may never have known when bulldozers would come, trundling along in the dead of night to raze their humble dwellings.  The aura of permanence is given to the shack dwellers by the provision of clean water and extensive electrification projects that have been undertaken in those areas, and other improvements, such as proper sanitation, good roads, schools and clinics.  It bears repeating that in the past, financial allocations for such communities were unheard of.  The ~apartheid~ Government spent the bulk of the country's finances on improving the lives of the privileged classes at the expense of the impoverished majority.  Sure, everything has not been plain sailing and stormy days lie ahead, yet it remains a fact that our progress as a new nation is very much on course.

However, with regard to the delivery of houses, we are still experiencing problems at local levels.  I am referring to Lot 14144 situated in Fernwood, Newcastle.  This plot was initially set aside for a technical school, but subsequently the Newcastle Town Council found it expedient to subdivide the land into 55 housing plots prior to the 1994 elections.  A loan of over R2 million was approved for the construction of these houses by the erstwhile House of Delegates.  The Newcastle Town Council spent over R200 000 to service these plots.  During the election this project was frozen.

I have since 1994 tried to have the land transferred back to the Newcastle Town Council, albeit in vain.  I believe that at this stage, the said property belongs to either the Department of Education and Culture or the Department of Works.  The costs incurred by the Newcastle Town Council is increasing by the day, considering the interest that is accumulating on the account.

These properties are in the heartland of a sub-economic residential suburb.  I am concerned that with the exorbitant service charges that are accumulating, the price of these properties, when put on the market, will be out of reach for the poor people for whom it was initially intended.

At this point I would like to thank Mr Nico Malan for his assistance in this matter.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR M F REHMAN:  I, today, make a humble appeal to our hon Minister of Housing, Minister Miller, to intervene and to help the people of Newcastle where there is a severe shortage of low cost housing.

Likewise, housing projects should be given priority in any area of KwaZulu-Natal, more especially where existing projects are being suffocated by legislation.  Measures to clear up our problems and complexities should be sought in order to make progress meaningful and attainable.

Finally, we in the IFP support this budget.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Rehman.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Dlamini.  I am sorry for the misunderstanding, to address the House for eight minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Chairperson, the National Minister of Housing made encouraging remarks in her address to NCOP, on 13 May in Cape Town.  The following were some of her remarks:

-	Giving accreditation to municipalities which will enable them to offer home owners best value for money.  What is also more important is that the point of delivery is being brought nearer to the people.
-	Builders were said not to be meeting acceptable standards of construction and they need to be watched very closely.

This is the point that she raised.  The Minister singled out establishment of infrastructure as another area to be handled by the Province.  We cannot overemphasise the importance of this.

It is anticipated that this will result in savings on the infrastructure cost, more especially if as a matter of policy the Province could resort to cluster housing or flats.  Perhaps it should be stated that we need to have a policy to convert cluster houses and/or flats into rental stocks.  I think this would be a logical way of coping with the housing demand in this Province, as well as the question of affordability.

Delivery of houses has become a very crucial issue to meet the needs of the people, not just as a political stand.  It is very distressing to note that there are projects that are 508 days behind schedule.  We need to get a clear explanation about this state of affairs.

It is also disturbing when one hears mixed stories about why we have not made significant delivery of houses.  The procedure followed after land has become available leading to advertising for development proposals and tenders can take anything up to three years.  This is what we are told.

Let us accept for argument sake that there are no shortcuts, it has to take three years, but to hear the Minister of Housing saying, I quote:

	I can say with conviction that delivery is really set to take off during the current financial year.

This is an admission that not much has been done in the area of house delivery.

We have established that there are 54 civil and structural engineering consultants in KwaZulu, handling 288 assignments.  Perhaps we need to emphasise also that these are all white.  In this Province there are nine black consulting engineers, there are four civil engineering companies, two structural engineering companies and three electrical engineering companies, but over and above that, there are two firms in quantity surveying, one firm in land surveying and three firms of architects.

The next question that one would like to ask is how many of these black consulting firms are employed on the housing projects?  There are approximately 300 building companies in this Province.  Capacity to handle building assignments does not seem to be a problem, if you consider the number of building companies in this Province.  The only problem perhaps is that the building industry is too white for everybody's liking.

The given figures lead one to ask the following question.  Why are there so many building companies in KwaZulu and yet very little building has been done?  When you try to make enquiries the Department of Engineering Services would contend that paperwork is complicated and time consuming.

I smell a rat.  I hope there is no foul play.  If the suspicion is right that some people somewhere are sabotaging delivery of houses then the Minister of Housing should rather investigate as quickly as possible.

In conclusion, Chairperson, it would be interesting also to know why there is a roll over of R121,9 million from the 1996/97 financial year after the Minister had complained that the 1996/97 budget was R28 million less than the previous financial year. 

With those few questions I would like to have some answers, if possible from the Minister when he responds but be that as it may, I would like to align myself with the acceptance of the budget.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Dlamini.  Next to address the House will be the hon member Mr Dingila who will speak for six minutes.  I wish to remind the members that he is making his maiden speech.  He has just been sworn in and we will give him the respect that he deserves.  Mr Dingila.

MR F T DINGILA: Mr Chairman, if we were to look at means of improving and developing rural areas, the following points presumably would contribute in minimising unemployment in this Province, through proper funding.

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, I am grateful to get this opportunity to also say a few words regarding the Department of Local Government which is led by a very clever man who clearly put forward his whole speech.

I want to say thank you, and I must also say that I did hear, although I have recently arrived, when something was said about there perhaps being a possibility that you, Mr Minister, sir, were being boycotted.  No, we would not boycott you here in this House.  T/E

Most of the people who now stay in shack houses, are job seekers.  They came from rural areas, and who would willingly go back to their places if means permitted.  This would create a new trend of marketing on the lines of agriculture if we were to concentrate on the rural areas on the lines of development.  People in the rural areas are still keen to concentrate on farming, it is only the circumstances that force them not to.

I also believe that it would create mutual relationships between street vendors and vegetable farmers, meaning street vendors in towns.  That could as a long term goal create mutual understanding between the people staying in farm areas and in towns.

It would change the wrong perception that the rural people are fools and they are ~Amakhosi~'s puppets, [because we are referred to as fools from the rural areas].

I think the good relationship that prevails between the Department of Local Government and the Department of Traditional Affairs, will to a large extent enhance the rural development programme, RDP.


TRANSLATION:  We refer to the RDP as the Royal Development Programme, because this is not the first time we have heard or implemented it.  We are not hearing about it for the first time today.  We know of it from before.  When Father Ngema was in control of it, it was an ongoing thing.  T/E

We could have covered a wider ground if we were not disturbed by a power and arms struggle.  As much as we need housing in the Metro, I feel that rather than satisfying only the needs of the people in Metro, the rural area people would also like to have shelters over their heads.  As a result they all now flock to the towns and they form congestion in such areas, because they also need to be developed, but unfortunately they are not in their areas.

It is not only the town people who should by right get houses but, however, we are now grateful that we have heard from the horse's mouth that the forecast is more close now to the rural areas.  We then hopefully feel that this could reduce the congestion that is taking place in towns, if most people could now be developed in the rural areas as well.

I would like to make an example of this.  Most of the teachers who are teaching in rural areas are people who dwell in townships.  They travel to and from townships because there is no more room to accommodate them in township schools so they resort to teaching in rural areas.  But still people who have been trained as teachers in rural areas, are now stranded because people who come from town are taking their jobs in rural areas.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR F T DINGILA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I would also like to make an example of what happened last year.  Plus/minus 25 000 people who were supposed to be dwelling in urban areas were then thrown onto the Ilembe regional council voter's roll.  16 000 were thrown on the Ndwedwe voter's roll and 9 000 were thrown onto the Umbumbulu voter's roll.  All these people need to be taken care of.  Unfortunately the ~Amakhosi~ have no funds to take care of these people.

They also need townships to be built in these areas.  Hopefully our hon Minister will take note of this.  On our part we have failed to identify such people.  It is either that they were thrown onto such voter's roll for other reasons.  Maybe [in order to increase votes in the rural areas], or at all they are people who are not interested in associating themselves with ~Amakhosi~.  If that had not been so we would have known who they were.

I also further appeal that those people, ~ogalajana~, who had taken these people, who had put these people on the real area voter's roll should at least come out openly and say, "We made a mistake.  We thought we would win the elections in the rural areas as well".

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR F T DINGILA: 
TRANSLATION:  With these words, sir, I want to express my thanks.  I hope that Mr Miller's Department will continue, because it appears to have difficult tasks but it should continue with doing them.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Dingila.  We will now proceed and deal with the second part of our vote which is Local Government.  I wish to call upon the hon member Dr Sutcliffe as Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, Chair.  I stand as the Chair of the Portfolio Committee.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  I will be replying on certain issues later on in the debate.  I want to remind us at the beginning of this debate what the objects of Local Government are.  Our Constitution defines them very clearly.  I will remind this House once again that those objectives are fivefold.

Firstly, that Local Government should provide democratic and accountable Government for local communities.  Secondly, that those Local Governments should ensure the provision of services to communities in a sustainable way.  Thirdly, they must promote social and economic development.  They must promote safe and healthy environments, and they must encourage the involvements of communities and community organisations in the matter of Local Government.

I think as we review the past year's work and certainly review the future's work, we should bear in mind what those objects of Local Government are, and whether we as a Provincial Government have begun to fulfil and encourage the development of those objects.

I would argue that in some senses we have been quite successful, in other senses not.  The first area I want to focus on, is really the use of this Portfolio Committee for example as a resource.  There the record of the Minister, the MEC of Local Government here, has been largely good, but in some areas there has in fact been a failing.  Some of it is not his due, he is not able to attend the monthly Portfolio Committee meetings because they are on the day of Cabinet.  I would argue that in some areas, I believe his Department has not encouraged the MEC to ensure that the Portfolio Committee is used properly.

I will review some of the areas of performance of the Local Government Portfolio Committee, and try and stress the areas where it is not being used effectively.

One area in which the MEC certainly used that Portfolio Committee to assist him in the process of dealing with a very controversial topic was the area of council allowances.  We believe that that matter was able to be diffused in this Province, compared to some other provinces where they still to this day have some very serious divisions between Councillors and Provincial Governments over the issue of allowances.  There, the fact that a process was embarked on by the Portfolio Committee, was in fact something that was positive.

An area where we believe that the Portfolio Committee has done sterling work, was the subcommittee set up under the chair of the hon Gordon Haygarth, looking into rating systems.  In this report it is not correctly noted that that committee did not come up with a single recommendation, they rather put forward recommendations as to how rating rebates, rating systems, could be utilised in terms of existing frameworks and possible future frameworks.

We believe that the Department itself, and here we refer to the officials, have not done enough to assist us in encouraging Local Governments, to in fact, advance that particular process.  We submitted that report not only to the Department but to all Local Governments in this Province.  One of the tragedies there is that it has been primarily officials who have responded to that report, and it has not become the subject of debate, because it was not putting forward and saying this is the rating system that shall be adopted.  That is an area where we believe future and more important work needs to be done.

A third area where we believe that the Department in this case, because we do not know whether the MEC was involved in getting that report, but on at least four occasions the minutes of those Portfolio Committees, and the discussion reflect that we requested the Department to talk about its organisational structure, to provide us, allow us an opportunity, in a workshop environment to talk about the organigram that has now become the subject of such dispute, hot, hot concerns and the like.

More than 18 months ago, we began a discussion.  We were promised that that organigram would be forthcoming to the Committee where we could look at it.  We believe that the Portfolio Committee could have become a very useful resource in beginning to assist in the evaluation and then the support of the Department in many of the claims which are valid.

Unfortunately, as Chair of the Committee, I must stand up and say even to date I do not quite know what that organigram is.  I do not know.  I read for the first time the issue around the Chief Director of Housing and the like.  We would agree that that would have been a very useful resource but it is difficult to be brought in at the end of that.

I want to focus, in the middle section then of the comments that I have, around the issues as have been raised in the MEC's report today.

The first is the issue of legislation.  Certainly it is a matter of concern.  We still do not have that Bill that has been floating around for about 24 months now, because the MEC was one of the first MECs, certainly Nationally, to begin to put on the agenda of the Province, a revision of the ordinance, the R293 and all those other ~apartheid~ based proclamations that define Local Government.  Unfortunately that is still floating around.  We know that there are political reasons, there were obviously also constitutional reasons and the like for dealing with that.

Maybe we need to now start talking about a framework of legislation in the Province, deal with the technical aspects now, let us get them out of the way while the more politically inspired aspects can wait for later.

On the record of legislation, the first area of the Local Government Bill, we believe we now need to sit down and seriously address that.  Councillors will tell you no matter where you are in this Province, that one of the biggest issues that inhibits them, is the use and abuse of the Ordinance, and some of the existing legislation.  You find Councillors will be told by Chief Executive Officers, "You cannot do this because of the Ordinance".

Of course when they investigate it they realise the existing Ordinance does not actually work against them but that it is a tool that is often used by some officials, certainly not all, some officials to retard the democratic operations of local councils.

We need to begin to put that much more seriously on the agenda and start addressing legislation in this Province, that will be a new kind of legislation, to allow the real democracy and democratic participation of local councils and communities in terms of the Constitution to get involved in that process.

The Development Facilitation Bill is another area of concern.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, will the hon member who guides officials on what to do take a question?  I put the question in my introduction.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the hon member take a question?

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  I will certainly take a question.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Will the hon member who is speaking who advises officials behind the scene what to do, take a question from me?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  He has agreed to take a question.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Is it not correct that on the rates issue you advised structures to listen to outdated officials in Durban?  You may say no, but the truth can never be hidden.  [LAUGHTER]

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  I say unequivocally no to that and I would urge the hon member to provide any evidence to the contrary.

The second area of legislation that clearly is of importance to this Province is the Development Facilitation Bill.  A bit of legislation that is beginning to provide new mechanisms, new ways in which development can occur in this Province.  Again we need to speed up that process.  It is not acceptable that again legislation floats around for months upon months upon months, and we do not actually get it before the Portfolio Committee and this House.

Thirdly, the whole area of legislation that is emerging Nationally, the White Paper process in particular, is something that we in this Province need to take that bull by the horns, particularly.  We cannot simply stand up, as the hon Minister of Traditional Affairs did the other day, and simply say ~Amakhosi~ are installed by God and we stop there.  We need to talk about the relationship between traditional leaders, traditional structures as it were and Local Government.  You cannot have a situation where each are contesting democratically elected councillors in rural areas, are contesting for development issues at the same time that some traditional structures might in fact be saying they are at play there.  We need to put that question before our committees and debate that matter.

The White Paper process itself, which is a Nationally driven process, really requires our support and encouragement.  It is an area that I would hope that the hon MEC, but certainly our Portfolio Committee, over the next year is going to address in detail.  Certainly none of us can stand up today and say in rural areas which are the most oppressed parts of our Province have really got democratic Local Government.  You cannot have democracy in a chamber of 320 people who are sitting there and expect that there can be serious democracy operating.  We need to address the issue of rural Local Government in much more detail.

A second broad area that I want to focus on is really the issue of Local Government finance.  Under the Chair of the hon Haygarth, but members of the Portfolio Committee, we have taken that matter extremely seriously this year.  We do not simply sit and say that because the Local Government Transition Act says the National Minister of Finance must monitor Local Government finances that that is enough.  It is up to us to ensure that we are beginning to point out where those problems lie.

The issue of finance is critical.  We should note that Local Governments are the second biggest revenue generators after National Government in our country.  Last year's budget, something like R50 billion, close to R50 billion was generated at local level.  95% of that was generated locally by those communities.  The payments of electricity, water and other service charges and the like.

It is important for us to begin to recognise that.  I would go further to say that in order to assist Local Governments maybe we need a transition levy.  A levy on income taxes for one year that can generate enough funds that will allow us to begin to address rural areas in particular where there is no Local Government that one can speak of.

Certainly the whole issue of revenue generation at a local level is something we should take seriously.  On the other side of it, the expenditure, we must note with concern that every year the Auditor-General's report has indicated an area of concern.  We have gone from something like R3 million in deficits in the 1992/93 year, to R32 million in the 1993/94 year to R50 million in deficits in the 1994/95 year.  That sharp increase in deficits is an area of major concern.  We as a Committee certainly need to assist the MEC in making sure that we nip that problem in the bud, that we do not wait until we have in fact not just four local authorities that are in serious trouble, but 44 local authorities which are in serious trouble, which we have to do something about.  The area of finance, and I hope my colleagues will focus on that later, is very important.

Finance is not just about getting people to pay.  Masakhane is not just about getting people to pay.  Masakhane is a broader programme of building communities, rebuilding our society, of restitution in areas where people were forcibly removed in the past, and have suffered as a result of discrimination there.  It is about us getting together and deciding how we will restitute and reconstruct those communities there.

That Masakhane message must go out to all communities.  How do we make sure things are more transparent, that communities are participating more effectively?  That communities understand their rights, responsibilities for payment for example.  How do we ensure that there is more effective accountability and transparency?  How do we ensure in effect that there is a better life for all?  Masakhane is something that certainly we have targeted as a Committee as something that is quite important in this Province.  We must project that much better.  The second broad area is the whole issue of finance that we need to focus on.

The third and last area that I will touch on is the issue of delivery.  Again we must commend the Department for its operations on the delivery front.  This past year for example, they managed more than 150, I think it was, projects running, as the hon Minister said, to more than half a billion Rand.  That must be commended.

Building of infrastructure in rural areas, replacing and restoring infrastructure in former R293 towns and other township areas, is something that must be commended.  We as a Government must register our concern at those cutbacks in the expenditure on capital works projects.  We realise that we have had to actually bite the bullet this year.  We are going to have to begin to look at ways in which those initiatives can be continued, particularly in rural areas.  We cannot begin to ensure that our infrastructure in fact is messed up there.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  I will conclude then by simply a couple of words.  Firstly, to the Portfolio Committee, I think we have operated as a collective this year.  That certainly comes out of those three traditions that we have.  A tradition of the majority party and the KwaZulu Government, a tradition of particularly the National Party and the former NPA, and a tradition of those coming out of the liberation movement.

We have certainly begun to operate, I believe, much more as a collective.  Certainly even in the period of the elections while we were not intimately involved, that Committee made sure that it did everything it could to ensure we had those successful elections.

To the committee I must certainly thank them for that operation as a collective and beginning to focus on our small areas like whether it is Colenso, whether it is Umkomanzi, we can begin to assist in finding solutions at a local level.

Finally, then to the MEC and his staff, our Committee is committed to ensuring that the Department of Local Government and Housing functions and continues to function effectively.  We commit ourselves to that venture.  We hope in turn the MEC will involve us much more in some of those difficult aspects.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Dr Sutcliffe.  Next to speak will be the hon member Mrs Mkhize who will address the House for seven minutes.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Chairman, may I just beg your indulgence.  I have been sitting here since 9 o'clock this morning and I have a very good reason to leave the House temporarily.  It is no insult to the speaker but my colleague here will take notes and I will be back as soon as I can.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is all right, Mr Minister.  You may continue, Mrs Mkhize.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  Mr Chairman, please do excuse me, I have a hoarse voice, I have flu and I hope what I say will be heard by the members in this chamber.

The Department of Local Government and Housing is the direct wagon of delivery.  Failure at whatever stage of the hierarchy of Government, from National down to Local is a doom for our needy communities.

Failure of National Government to make decisions and laws that are conducive to delivery is a national disaster.  For instance, I will quote the amount prescribed by the National Housing Department.

This amount that is supposed to be given to individuals for housing subsidies, has been proven to be non-workable.  This has been proven during the last three years where you found that people who have been working from the local authorities up to NGOs, to try and make this a success, but nothing has been achieved.

Reading from the Minister's report, I found that there were quite a number of projects that have been given some subsidy, but those could not start.

It is a fact that there are no funds in our Government coffers because of the debts that we have.  If we could think a bit and use what we have in a manner that will enable us achieve something, I think it would be much better.  Especially with the housing problems.

When we go to the communities out there we find that they really prefer the good old four-roomed houses.  In the Government's effort to try and please everybody they are given such little support and this is not working.

To mention a few areas where I feel we have not done much, and in fact the Government has faulted, is the very notorious severance packages.  These severance packages have caused disaster, not only in this Department of Local Government and Housing, but in different departments.  I feel there is a lot of money that has been wasted and it has caused a disaster.

I will also go to the area where I find the Government has not prioritised well and there is a need that it be done, as a first priority.  When I look at the billions and billions that is used for this Truth and Reconciliation programme, I find that there was no proper prioritisation by our hon Government.  In fact those billions of billions of Rands that is being used should have been prioritised and given to some other areas where there is urgent need.  I feel where there is a need but it is not a priority.

We are caught between the horns of a dilemma.  On the one hand, there are masses that are crying because of our failure to deliver.  On the other side, we have a Government that is unable to furnish the needs of the communities.  For instance the 12,1% that the Minister has mentioned, that has been cut from his budget shows clearly that the situation is not getting better, but it is getting worse.

It is even worse now because we are living with people who have a culture of non-payment, which is deeply imbedded in them.  We have people who have a culture of protest.  Now with all these problems we find that even the Masakhane campaign seems to be doing very little to change our communities.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MRS N C MKHIZE:  Training programmes for all councillors is appreciated and should be continued to facilitate their knowledge needs.  Amalgamation that has taken place is also appreciated, but I feel there is a lot of amalgamation that has to take place in the minds of the people that have to amalgamate.

Mr Chairman, I will end there.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Ngidi to address the House for 12 minutes.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  During the debate of the same vote last year I posited that:

	We should examine whether we have been able to utilise Local Government as a tool for transformation?

That question is still relevant.  The process of transformation is not complete.  There are times when I am not even sure whether it has started.  Have we managed to obliterate inequalities brought about by the ~apartheid~ regime?  Judging by the budget we are debating, do we have a vision to transform Local Government?

To be able to answer these questions it is important to understand challenges that we face in our quest to transform Local Government.

Firstly, we need to address the issue of racially divided wards.  Transformation must be seen even at that level.  We need to address the question of the existence of racial enclaves in our local councils.  It is high time we began a process to amalgamate wards.  New demarcations that address this problem must be worked out.  At the same time we must correct some wrong demarcations, which have resulted in confusion and chaos, where communities who used to live together have been separated even where there is no need.  In other areas, inordinately big wards need to be reduced to workable sizes.

Secondly, we need to begin to address issues that directly impact on the administrative capacity of our councils.  It is important that devolution of power and assignment of authority from the Province to our councils takes place urgently.  This would assist to enhance the administrative capacity of our councils as they would be dealing with matters over which they have the final say.  At the same time, it would expedite development as many projects are in limbo due to a state of uncertainty.  Again this would positively address the process of change management.

One big challenge that faces us is the issue of rates.  As rates are the lifeline of local councils it has all the ingredients of being explosive.  As things stand, there is a great likelihood that rates will be the downfall of many councils.  Already there are rumblings within the Province, and before things get out of hand we need to make an input in the matter.  We should try hard to avoid the Sandton saga.

What we should note is that there is no singular solution to this problem.  A negotiated settlement will have to be worked out.  All role-players and stakeholders in the matter will have to be engaged.  A solution that is reached must be such that takes everybody on board.  The solution must be a result of a collective effort of all the role-players, be it civics, political parties, ratepayers organisations, councillors or parliamentarians.

The rate problem will have to be looked at in its historical perspective.  You cannot hope to sort out this problem without revisiting the past.  We need to eradicate historical imbalances in our communities.  As a result, any rating system will have to be judged on the principles of equity.

It is important to note that if our quest for a new rating system is to be successful, it will have to be accompanied by an education campaign.  Such campaign will have to be two-pronged.  Firstly, we will have to deal with those who take non-payment as a way of life.  Everybody must learn now that we have democracy, it is our responsibility to make it work.  We must convince people that there is no need to boycott payment any longer.

Secondly, we will have to target those communities who benefitted in the past regime.  We will have to teach them that they have to make certain sacrifices for the good of our country.  This is not a case of killing the strong to save the weak, but it is a question of facing reality and working out practical solutions.  We will never design a system that pleases everybody.  It is imperative therefore that people should learn that South Africa does not only consist of Morningside, Kloof or Westville alone, but also of KwaMashu, Clermont, Mpumalanga and other areas.

Negotiations towards a rating system acceptable to all will be difficult and long drawn.  Any solution brings forth new problems, the same will apply in the process of finding a new system.  This means that negotiations cannot be a once-off thing.  There will be various phases.  Each phase will have to be negotiated, as each phase will present its own set of problems.  This presupposes a working out of a clear programme of action that envisages a number of stages.  At the same time we will have to work out guidelines which will guide us during negotiations.

In this regard I would like to make a call that this Legislature, through the Portfolio Committee on Local Government, organises a Provincial summit on rates, to involve all role-players which should work out a programme of action and guidelines for negotiations.

One important factor will be the commitment to the new rating system by the elected public officials.  This starts with us endeavouring to purge the rates issue of party political squabbles.  Together with this we will have to work out efficient and effective enforcement processes and enhance the administrative capacity of our local councils.  There is no need to have a good rating system which will be unable to enforce.

Another big challenge we face is in the area of rural Local Government.  Till today we have not come to any agreement involving fundamental issues around that matter.  At the Executive level it is not clear where the ultimate authority for rural Local Government lies.  What compounds the problem is that we have not worked out a model for rural Government.  What we have presently is a makeshift structure created to enable us to have elections and begin to work.

I am not going to propose a model for rural Local Government, save to say that we need to get our act together on this front.  I am, however, going to touch on certain issues, I am sure will come in for consideration in the debate around this issue.

Whatever model we agree upon, must have the Constitution of our country as the starting point.  We must endeavour to enforce the provisions of the Constitution and not seek to undermine it.  Furthermore, the model must entrench and broaden democracy throughout our country.

It is important to briefly examine the relevant provisions of the Constitution.  Section 1 of the Constitution sets out the parameters for democracy and democratic practice for the whole of South Africa, which we should bear in mind as we develop the model for rural Local Government.

Further on, section 151(1) and (2) read as follows:

	(1)	The local sphere of government consists of municipalities, which must be established for the whole of the territory of the Republic.
	(2)	The executive and legislative authority of a municipality is vested in its Municipal Council.

It is instructive to note the objectives of Local Government as has been laid down by the hon Dr Sutcliffe.

What is also important to note is that the Constitution confers supreme authority on local councils.  The idea of dual authority is not envisaged by the Constitution.  What this means is that no one has the right to veto any action by elected councils.  The model we are talking about must take this into account.  The practice by some traditional leaders of vetoing actions of councillors is unconstitutional.

What must also be said is that the model for rural Local Government must envisage a clear separation between elected councils and the institution of traditional leaders.  Our experience is that where there is no clear separation, this confuses matters where traditional leaders want their word to hold sway in councils, over and above the mandate given by the voters to council.  This does not mean that traditional leaders should not be elected to local councils, but when that happens the traditional leader concerned must suspend his role as such and act only in the capacity as an elected official.  We hope that legislation will also work out mechanisms of accommodating traditional leaders and define relations and terms of reference of both Local Government and the institution of traditional leaders.

Within the rural Local Government debate, is the unfinished story of incorporating rural areas into neighbouring urban local councils.  This issue was unfortunately wrongly handled, and the voice of the people was totally ignored.  Political expediency was at the end of the day the only consideration given cognisance.  There is no need in proliferating rural councils which are not economically viable, and that have no prospect of ever developing a tax base.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  It does not make sense to have councils that live on hand-outs.  They are never independent in the true sense and therefore never develop.  To prove this, you only have to compare the total budget of the urban councils against that of the rural councils.

It is my honest feeling that we must never play politics with Local Government.  It is one area where there is a potential of us uniting and developing a common programme to make a better life for our people.  Time is running out for us.  While we dilly-dally and bicker, we may find that we have lost golden opportunities, where we could have made a difference for our people.

Finally, Mr Chairperson, we await legislation with bated breath.  We cannot operate in a legislative vacuum any longer.  I will also be interested in seeing the Department's "strategy for the establishment and development of Local Government capacity for denser populated settlements".  However, the people affected must have an input in this strategy.  One is hopeful that this will happen as the Minister seems to envisage wide consultations.

My prayer is that regard be given to their submissions, even if such seems to contradict the political mandate of our parties.  It is heartening to hear the Minister saying that:

	Legislation and this programme is one of the Department's major objectives for the 1997/1998 financial year.

Let us get on with the job.  I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Ngidi.  Good timing.  Before we carry on, I just wish to announce that we are going to finish this debate before we break for lunch.  So members can relax.  I wish to call upon the hon member Mr Volker to address the House for seven minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, the hon Mr Ngidi, who has just completed speaking, raised a few issues which I believe require a response.  He started off by stating that the process of transformation should be expedited.  I wish to state quite categorically that the position of the National Party is fully supportive of transformation and empowerment as far as Local Government is concerned.

It is, however, necessary that we must get real as far as this is concerned.  One cannot bring about a transformation or an empowerment if the foundation for that is not present.  It must be done at a pace and tempo that will not undermine the effectiveness and efficiency of Local Government in its broader sense.

I wish to refer to the Constitution, as has been done quite frequently.  The hon member Dr Sutcliffe quoted from section 152, the first subsection, namely the objects of Local Government which I subscribe to.  An important additional clause is 152(2) which says:

	A municipality must strive, ...

And then it adds:

	... within its financial and administrative capacity, to achieve the objects set out in subsection (1).

In other words, the Constitution provides that these objects can only be achieved within the Local Government's administrative and financial capacity.  There is another clause, 154(1), which in fact says:

	The national government and provincial governments, by legislative and other measures, must support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs, to exercise their powers and to perform their functions.

Somehow the Constitution requires National and Provincial Governments to do that, but in its budget the National Government cuts the provision to Provincial Governments and thereby does not enable Provincial Governments to be able to give effect to this clause 154.

The ability to do so depends on financial ability, it also depends on abilities in administrative capacity etcetera but there is a balance between what the ideal, the high ideal set by the Constitution and the practical reality of being able to do this.  In the same way transformation cannot be finalised within a matter of two or three or four or five years.

We have the situation in Europe, where East and West Germany became amalgamated in 1989.  It is costing the western taxpayer a massive burden to try and transform the development in East Germany, which incidentally is only a quarter of the population of the western section, it is costing them an arm and a leg to try and expedite that.  It is now eight years, and they expect it will take them another ten years, before they have reached a reasonable amount of parity.

It is totally unreal for us in this country to expect the transformation to be completed within a matter of two, three, four, five or even ten years.  Let us accept in principle that this must be done, but let us take the steps towards that transformation in a realistic way, so that we do not undermine the effectiveness and the efficiency of Local Government.

A few other matters that were addressed by the hon Mr Ngidi.  He said that we must get away from the racially divided wards.  He might not be aware, but the provision of the Local Government Transition Act, stated that for the first period there shall be a parity in wards for the whites, Indians and coloureds and the black areas.  That is only for the first period.

In other words, it is provided that in the next delimitation of wards, provision must be made that there will be a delimitation of wards on a parity basis.  In other words, that a whole local authority shall be considered as one, there shall be no differentiation in determining the delimitation of wards.

Linked to this, I wish to raise the issue, that a real problem is the determination that the election and preparation for elections shall be determined solely at National level.  The regulations at the moment do not provide that Local Governments can update their voter's rolls, because there is no electoral commission at National level, because there is no provision that at the moment Local Governments can in fact update their roles.

If they had an election based on 1995 voter's rolls, updated up to 1996 and there were no deletions, but people who registered in 1995 are still on the rolls, but in a ward that consists basically of an area where there is a substantial movement of people, if there is a by-election now or even next year, the roll can be completely changed.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

MR V A VOLKER:  The roll can be completely changed.  There is no provision in the present legislation that voter's rolls can be adjusted, that there can be a supplementary voter's roll, that people who move from one area to another can register in the new area and be deleted in the one area.  That is a National problem because of the present provision.

I believe it is essential that this matter be addressed.  Primarily the issue of handling and providing for delimitation and registering of voter's rolls etcetera should be the responsibility of the local authority.  It should not be a National issue, because local authorities are in a far better position to do that, under the guidance of a province.  The province is in a better way to oversee the implementation of such matters, but for some ideological reason it is determined that it shall all be done in terms of National legislation.
I believe it is totally wrong.  I believe many, many of the members, including members of the ANC will agree that it is impractical to do it that way, but if they insist on ideological approaches, and I believe that many of the ideological approaches are that it shall be determined at National level because ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR V A VOLKER:  ... because they have no confidence whatsoever in certain ANC provinces to be able to handle this.  That is the underlying reason why they insist on this being done.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Burrows to address the House for seven minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Chairman, there are two issues of Housing and Local Government.  Let me separate them in the remarks I want to make.

As far as Housing is concerned, there is one inconsistency that I have been attempting to probe in the allocation, both of subsidies and of council and other built properties in the housing market.  It is maybe one that the Minister needs to address when he makes remarks at the end.  That is the question that the best promoter of the ownership of property and the maintenance of property is in fact a market system.  A market in land and a market in houses.

We appear to have sunk ourselves into a social or socialist system, which says we are going to provide you with a small amount of money.  I agree with the colleagues here on the right, that R15 000 is not enough in terms of what they get, but then if you build property and want to move that property, it has to be returned or sold to an over-arching authority.  That is as I understand it.  If I am wrong the Minister, I have no doubt will correct me.

The same is applicable in areas like Cato Manor with the Cato Manor Development Board, and it is true in other land and property as well.  I find it very peculiar because if there is one thing that did work out of what Margaret Thatcher did in Britain, and there are many things ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR R M BURROWS:  Hang on.  There are many things that did not work, but if there is one thing that did work, and the Labour Party will agree, it was to sell council houses.  It was to make and create a market in council houses.  It gave the opportunity to people to own property, to care for property and to sell property.  If you have that possibility you will look after your property, the point being made by the hon Mr Bartlett.  That market system in land and property is one that we need to say is a good thing, not a bad thing.

As far as marketing land is concerned, we have the confusion and the problems of the Ingonyama Trust.  Of course the Ingonyama Trust itself is being amended.  I am asking the question are we going to see a market in land developing in areas that have been released from the implications of the Ingonyama Trust?

The second point I just quickly want to raise.  The Minister in his speech, at least in his printed speech which was somewhat different from his delivered speech I must note, he said that the Library Building programme of R12 million does not fall under him any more.  R12 million has disappeared.  I want to know where it has gone.  It has not popped up in Education and Culture.  I know the Library Services are moaning like hell that they have not got money to build Provincial Libraries.

Let me move on to Local Government.  As far as Local Government is concerned, there has been a remark made at National level that we need to find a counterpoint here in Provincial level, concerning the number of Local Government authorities, and their costs.

We know that when we had the Local Government elections on 26 June last year, there was something like 75 local authorities elections that were held or were held later.  It is simply too many.  Some are not cost efficient, some are quite clearly financially incapable of supporting themselves.  I hope the Minister will at least give an idea and a vision to this House, of how he sees that process of amalgamating certain local authorities continuing over the next two years.  To pick up the point made by Mr Volker, and I had noted it down previously, we are in the stage where a Demarcation Board has to be created for the Province, the A and B wards have to disappear.  We are going to have to re-examine all of those structures.  It is going to have a profound and very significant effect on sitting councillors and where they find their next voting place.  Here I must declare an interest.

My wife is a Local Government councillor.  If her ward disappears I must quickly go and find another one with her.  Presumably that applies around the Province.

From the point of view of demarcation, the point of amalgamation, the point of the disappearance of A and B wards, the elimination of hostels as single voting wards, all of these must take place and take place very quickly.

One of the matters the Minister referred to in his printed speech, that he gave me as a member of Parliament a reply to a question that I had asked, was the question of councillors who had not paid their rates.  I put that question in early January.  I received a reply from him at the end of February, saying the matter was being further investigated, and that by the end of March he should be in a position to submit to me the last part of the question I asked, which was the names of all those councillors who had not paid their rates, and what had happened to them that have not paid their rates for longer than a three month period?  What had happened to them and whether elections had taken place.  That has not been answered.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One and a half minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  I see there is a member sitting with it.  I have not had it.  Presumably I would be able to get that fairly shortly.

AN HON MEMBER:  This was my question.

MR R M BURROWS:  Three last things very quickly in my minute left.  First of all, there are five chairpersons of regional councils who are headmasters of schools.  I cannot believe that being a chairperson of a regional council and a headmaster of a school is a compatible occupation.  It is a matter that I will be taking up with the Minister of Education and Culture.  He, in terms of the Public Service Act and in terms of Education regulations has to determine that being a councillor does not interfere with the work of being an educator.  I just cannot believe it is happening.  I would like the Minister to comment on that.

Two quick ones, Chair.  First of all, I trust the African National Congress will distance themselves from the practice of some councils, Howick I name, of having closed meetings, and having all documentation sworn to secrecy.  If you have an African National Congress, it is one party across the Province.  Howick is yours and you must accept their problems as well.

Lastly, I want all parties, including the African National Congress and the National Party to condemn the increases the Howick councillors voted for themselves.  Thank you, Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  Next to speak will be the hon member Miss Xulu who will address the House for ten minutes.

MISS M XULU: 

TRANSLATION:  I thank you, hon Chairman.  I am going to talk about the transfer of civil servants from the old KwaZulu Government to the municipalities.  I asked the hon Minister to look carefully at the issue of townships which were under the old KwaZulu Government, because there is confusion amongst all the civil servants since the election which was held in June.

All the civil servants are confused in the townships, all the townships which were administered in terms of Proclamation R293.  I remember that the hon Minister spoke about the problem of transfers, but what I am requesting of the hon Minister and his officials is to look at this issue because this issue is causing strife.

In all the townships which were administered under R293, the civil servants feel that they do not have a future.  Right from the offices some were township managers, they have decided to take their money and go not because they are going because they want to go, but because they do not know what the future holds for them.

They do this because to answer you, they do not know, they are not told where they stand.  Perhaps if you bear with me you will hear what I am getting at.  There at home in ~Umlazi~, those buildings which are known as ~eMaweleni~, which fall under the Local Government, are standing vacant, the civil servants are not there.  Theresa does not go there, Theresa is in Durban.  She ran away from Durban.  They ran away from their houses which they should be fixing up.

I am speaking about the Mayor indeed.  If the Mayor knew what ~Umlazi~ was he would be concerned about it.  As I speak, the people who used to read the meters, the water meters at ~Umlazi~, they do not know what they are supposed to do.  They are told to go to Pinetown and go and work there.  When they got to Pinetown they were told to put on overalls, they were told to go to the residences of the whites, the Indians, the coloureds, and the blacks, and go and read the water meters there.  What confused them was that that was something that they were doing in the township, so why were they being moved from their place?  What is amazing is that other people have been brought in by the municipality to do their work.  When they ask what is really happening, they do not get an explanation.  As far as the women are concerned, they were told to get into the manholes where you have to go down some steps to go down.

I want you to listen to this issue, because it is a sad issue.  We could take it as a political issue, but it is our children that are suffering.  When they asked how they were going to get into the hole, they were told they must take overalls also and wear them and go and read the electricity meters underground.

When they said they were unable to do that, and that they thought that this was work for males, they were told by the person in charge, who was an Indian, who said, "Well, women have been to Beijing where they wanted the power of equality".  They then said, "Well, now we are equal, the work is the same".

Regarding this, Chairman, I am sad and worried, because all the people who fell under R293 have not felt the benefits of freedom, even the workers there.  I am requesting that this issue be treated as a matter of urgency.

The second issue I want to talk about are the Development Committees.  They should be formed jointly and should not be from one organisation, as it is in ~Umlazi~.  The Development Committee that exists is an ANC one which is known as the ~Umlazi~ Reconstruction and Development Project, URDP.

There is no success from this Committee, because it is controlled by one side.  That is why they even went so far as to ask for money and said they were going to build Masakhane and ended up organising their own campaign for the ANC, where they were running around with ANC flags with money from people's taxes.

Secondly, when I come to the issue of housing rates, hon Chairman, it is still the same there in the people's locations.  I am requesting that if we are going to talk about rates, people should be told first, and educated so that when people talk about rates they know exactly what they are paying for, and what needs are served by the payment of rates.

It was sad that the Metro Council took a lot of money which the ratepayers had paid and engaged consultants with that money, who made certain evaluations and stipulated rates without consulting the home-owners.  When we talk about a top-down approach, we are referring to consulting the people.  Let us look at this market value that is being spoken about, that they keep saying that a market value is going to be done, and let us see whether it is possible to do it in places that are full of shacks.

There was a home owner in ~Umlazi~ who was selling a very beautiful house.  Perhaps it is even better than the hon Dlamini's home, even though that home is very nice indeed.  He has also moved out from it.  This house was being sold for more than R200 000,00 but ...  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Would you take a question]?

MR F DLAMINI:  Mr Chairman, would the speaker like to take a question?

MISS M XULU: 

TRANSLATION:  No, no.  When I have finished, Mr Chairman.  This person that was selling the house was forced to sell it for half the price which was R100 000,00.  That is why I say let us look carefully to see whether the market value works.

Lastly, Chairman, I am requesting that we should look after the interests of those who are unemployed, those who are old, and those who are disabled who have homes.  This thing that I hear about on the radio that they keep talking about, and the people of the Council keep talking about, where they say that if somebody does not pay the rates, that debt will be carried over to that person's child, and will become a debt payable by the child.

I say we must always remember that home ownership does not mean that.  A person can give a home to whoever that person pleases.  That child, what will it pay for if I give whomsoever I please my house, if I make a will in other words?

Nobody has a right to tell another person what to do with what they own.  The owner of the house can dispose of his estate and give it to anybody that he chooses.  I think that we would be placing that child in a problematic situation.  I also think we must look at this issue, people should not be threatened and frightened by being told that their houses would be attached, Mr Chairman.  People must be educated and told what rates mean.

They must also realise what they are paying for.  As I am speaking, there are no roads in the townships, the roads are rotten.   Mr Chairman, I would like the person who has just made a comment to realise that I am not talking about the town in which he lives, but I am talking about the townships.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Two minutes left].

MISS M XULU: 

TRANSLATION:  Lastly, we are requesting the Minister to choose a team that is going to look into these grievances that I have expressed.  That these townships that fall under R293, are they being looked after just as other places that have been brought together, which were under the House of Representatives and other departments?

Those people that were under R293, the hon Minister must choose a team that is going to look into whether those people are indeed treated in the same manner.  Are they being told where their future lies?  Do they have hope in the future, because as I speak these are our children?  Leaving politics aside, these are our children.  It is sad when you come back, the children say they do not know where they are going to work.  They were employed properly by the Government of KwaZulu, they were employed as a result of their qualifications, but today the councillors come and tell them, "I am going to fire you".  The councillor does not know how that person was employed.

That is a request that I put to the hon Minister, that in that team of yours, Mr Minister, it should be mixed.  There should be black people in that team who will be there in that programme to look after the interests of our people.  It must not just be something that is going to be practised.  The hon Minister must ask for feedback about these townships, such as ~Umlazi~ and KwaMashu, and ask whether what Xulu is saying is the truth, or is she mad.  People do not know where their future lies.  If we say we now have freedom it should not be one-sided, it should be on all sides, this freedom, even in our townships.  Our children must feel this freedom.  People that are living in the townships must feel this freedom.  Lastly, I support the hon Minister's budget speech.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you, hon member].  Our next speaker will be the hon member Miss Buthelezi who will address the House for eight minutes.

MISS M N BUTHELEZI:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Chairperson, I want also to congratulate the Minister and his Department for their effort in dealing with the corruption in his Department, especially on departmental transport.

Local Government is the level of representative democracy closest to the people.  It will often be involved in the allocation of resources, directly affecting communities.  The existing grading system for local authorities should reflect the needs of people, and not just existing consumption of services.
Arising from the hon Minister of Traditional Affairs' speech, he said there is a move afoot to diminish the role of traditional leaders.  He further said it is part of his Department's plan to assist ~Amakhosi~ in equipping themselves.  Mr Chairperson, before ~Amakhosi~ were not allowed to give their subjects a place to live but to give them permission to occupy.  No one complained about that, and it shows and supports the statement that ~Amakhosi~ just care for themselves, not for their subjects.

As the Government we should consult widely to ensure that all views are available to the policy making process.  We should also encourage local communities to develop their own priorities, so that we will be able to organise and develop further the vast amount of research and information available to us in the developing of detailed policy.  The people of this Province must together shape their own future.

Local authorities should be assisted to deal with the existing backlog of municipal services through inter-governmental transfers from Central and Provincial Government, according to criteria established by the financial and fiscal commission.  Separate local authorities' administrations must be amalgamated, re-organised and rationalised, after consultation between employer and employee bodies.  A centralised system of collective bargaining for municipalities' employees should be established.

A developmental culture among the local administrations should be encouraged.  The actions of councillors and officials should be open and transparent, with councillors subjected to an enforceable code of conduct.  Local council administrations should be structured in such a way as to ensure maximum participation of civil society and communities in decision making and developmental initiatives of local authorities.

I would like to spend a few minutes on the question of gender representivity.  It is a fact that less than one-third of our elected councillors are women.  Less than 10% of the executive committee members of local councils are women.  In addition, far less than 5% of senior managers in local councils are women.

A key focus throughout restructuring in and ensuring a full and equal role for women in every aspect of our economy and society.  With this emphasis and with emphasis on affirmative action throughout a reconstruction programme we must unlock boundless energies and creativity suppressed by racism and discrimination.  Women are not even considered as stakeholders.  In fact women are the biggest consumers of resources, and the hardest hit by the lack of facilities in rural or traditional areas.  This not only impacts on their participation, but makes them the best consultants regarding community needs.  This Government has a responsibility to consider special intervention methods to redress inherent discrimination.

Since people with disabilities are members of society and have the right to remain within their local communities, their interests should also be addressed.  They should be represented on municipal councils to make the legislative and policy making process more accountable to their needs.  Municipalities should assist the process of empowering people with disabilities to enable them to provide for their own needs by training in the field of economic empowerment.

The Training Board for Local Government bodies should provide more effective training for employees of local authorities.  The entrance criteria of professional bodies, such as the Institute of Town Clerks, municipal treasurers and accountants should be broadened to ensure better access for all South Africans to these professions.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MISS M N BUTHELEZI:  At Local Government level, a woman's portfolio should be established with powers to scrutinize local authority programmes and budgets for gender sensitivity.  Local authorities can play a role in the implementation of affirmative action within the private sector, through special criteria for Local Government contracts.

Mr Chair, the future is in our hands and we must carry forward the work needed to finally liberate ourselves from the evils of ~apartheid~.

With those words, Mr Chairperson, I support the budget.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Miss Buthelezi.  I wish now to call upon the hon member Mr Rajbansi to address the House for eight minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, the first foreign Minister of India, gave a message to the world, that if you want to develop a healthy country, a stable country, and if you want to inject life into the economy of a developing country, give highest priority to the development of housing.

I want to say that every house we build, every shelter we build, we are contributing towards the development of a stable South Africa.  An infrastructure, a foundation for a great country.

I am very thankful for the fact that I serve on both the Local Government and Housing Portfolio Committees.  The relationship between these Portfolio Committees and the Minister and the Department and the other institutions like the Housing Development Board, the Assets Committee, the Town Planning Commission is good.  For that we are thankful.

I agree with the sentiments expressed by the Chairperson of our Local Government Portfolio Committee, and the Chairperson of our Housing Portfolio Committee, that in respect of the relationship, there is definitely need for improvement.  I want to recommend for consideration by the hon Minister that let this contact not be confined to the strict officious atmosphere of parliamentary committee meetings.  Let there be a regular flow of information, so that there will be less questions and less probing into the affairs of the Department.

Of course, I gave figures which were quoted by a National Minister in the National Assembly, in the NCOP debate.  I am very thankful to our hon Minister for indicating to us that in the debate, in the NCOP, the figures relating to our Province were corrected.

Everyone has been unanimous, even the chief spokesperson of Housing of the IFP, the hon Belinda Barrett, that there are delivery problems.  There are tremendous odds.  The hon Minister in his introductory remarks stated that the theme of his address is "delivery against all odds".  I do not want to repeat the impediments which everyone has highlighted.  I just want to repeat some of the sentiments I expressed, when we had the brief debate on our Provincial Service Commission.

I want to say, not only in respect of the Department of Local Government and Housing, but also in respect of Education and other departments, one of the greatest impediments has been our Provincial Service Commission.  I say this for two reasons.

Of the nine provinces in our country, only the Provincial Service Commission of KwaZulu-Natal is having problems with the Government.  Of the nine provinces in our country only our Provincial Service Commission is reluctant, or have refused to delegate certain responsibility to the Department.  When you delegate responsibility you delegate responsibility to senior officials, especially the Heads of Departments who have the experience in respect of financial and administrative accountability.

I will not say anything more.  Let us express the wish that with the intervention of our hon Premier this matter will be resolved.  I hope that the Portfolio Committee of Finance can also play a role as a mediator to resolve this problem.  I indicated that they have very capable black African personnel who have been frustrated, who are occupying positions as acting Directors or acting Deputy Directors etcetera, to the extent, that when some of these civil servants looked forward with a message of hope, that after the liberation election, they had to go into early retirement because of these frustrations.

I want to deal with another odd that is facing this country.  We must not only deal with the delivery of homes, we must also look at the type of homes which we are providing for our people.  Before 1994, there was a policy that no homes were to be built for black African people in an urban area.  That is why in the area adjacent to Cato Manor, you had service sites lying idle, because it was State policy that no homes were ever to be built for African people, in addition to having the notorious Group Areas Act and the influx control legislation.

That is why the highest demand for housing is for African people.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Of course in addition to that, you had the influx control.  Our problem is our National Housing policy.  We must demand that with the global allocation from the National Treasury we should have Provincial autonomy.

In respect of Local Government, I want to pay a compliment to our Minister and to our Local Government election administrators.  I do not think this country has faced such critical, such sensitive elections, as we had in this country on 26 June last year.  The election was peaceful.  It was a tremendous success.  We all played a very significant role in the special presidential task group, that was appointed by our President.  We had to amend regulations.  We had to amend regulations ten times a day.  It was mind boggling to see how the administration coped with these amendments, coped with the problems relating to the voter's roll, etcetera.  Our administration came out with flying colours.  I think we must be very, very proud of the fact that we organised these elections in such a brilliant fashion.

I want to deal with the question of rates, and linked with that is restitution.  I quoted the hon State President on the occasion of the agriculture function in Pietermaritzburg where he placed a tremendous emphasis on restitution.  He said restitution is going to heal the wounds of ~apartheid~.  Putting right the ills of the past in respect of the valuation of properties for ratable purposes, is a type of restitution.  Municipalities are failing.  There is frustration.  I think now it is the responsibility of the Minister and the Provincial Government to step in to ensure that there is justice.

As far as restitution is concerned, I do not like to hear of the word "market value".  Market value is an artificial value that has been created as a result of the Group Areas Act, another racially based legislation.  We must look at a realistic value, taking into consideration the historical imbalances which the broad mass of all people have been subjected to.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Next on the list of speakers is the hon member Mr Haygarth who will address the House for seven minutes.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Chairman, the first issue that I would like to tackle is this vexed question of the Provincial Service Commission.  I am pleased to note that the hon the Minister has somewhat moderated what he had written in his report and read something which was slightly different.

However, in doing so I am not sure that the hon the Minister accepts the principle, while he accepts an independent Commission.  He said that in so far as the filling of posts is concerned, he did not say that he accepted it in so far as the approval of new posts were concerned.  It is on that issue that I wish to raise some concerns.

In so far as Local Government is concerned, the Municipal Service Commission operating in Durban, started in 1952.  One of its most important functions was to check on the need for new posts, and the financial implications that those posts have on the forthcoming budgets of the departments concerned.  If you fail to do so, if you have some sort of doctrine of papal infallibility or whatever that says because I want some jobs and I believe that are properly due, I must have them.  If you adopt that attitude the implications for the finance are or need to be weighed against, the need for the output of the work concerned.

The Minister, in handling his budget, his financial budget this year, indicated that because of the reduction in the amount available to him, and the fact that he could not reduce his salary budget, the impact of that was that the full amount of his reduction had to be taken from other votes.  So while the staff vote or expenditure vote of staff remained untouched, instead of a 4% or 5% cut, whatever it might be on the remainder of the vote, those other votes had to take a reduction of 20% or 25%.  That is the effect of the size of the establishment vote in the Minister's particular case.

Most departments in this Provincial administration suffer from the same situation, namely that their expenditure on staff costs constitutes the most substantial part of their budget.  Unless we are careful in how we permit staff costs to grow in relation to the controls which we are going to continue to have on us in respect of budgets, we are going to run into a very difficult situation.  We are going to run into a situation where the Ministers say, "All I have got left is my staff.  I am sorry I cannot cut anything to meet the budget requirements".

That is of concern.  I think the Minister needs to accept that the Finance Committee has an obligation to ensure, that the impact of staff growth is capable of being met from within the future budgets that are likely to be available.  That was the first point I wanted to raise.

The second point, I want to take up the issue that was raised by the hon member Miss Xulu who made the point, what was the purpose of rates in ~Umlazi~.  I think that, as I understood, was the question that she raised.

I wrote a recent letter to the Minister and I had a response, it came to me yesterday, and I had raised the question of whether service charges should not be deemed to be rates, for the purposes of areas such as ~Umlazi~.  The answer I got back was an exposition of what service charges were all about and it did not really deal, or it did not understand what the question was that I was raising.  Let me just make the point.

In the case of ~Umlazi~ the people pay service charges for sewerage, I think they pay service charges for refuse removal and they pay administration costs for the operation of the establishment which is there.

In so far as the white community, the Indian community and the coloured community are concerned in Durban, those people pay for their sewerage and their refuse removal and their administration costs within the rates they pay.  If you impose rates on ~Umlazi~ people, and leave them continuing to pay their service charges, they are then paying twice for the same thing.

What I was trying to ask the Minister, was whether there is not a way of deeming the service charges at this initial stage to be the rates, work out what the rates should be and have a period in which you equalise that situation.  You take perhaps three years where the services charges in three year's time become the full amount of rates that are payable by the people.  Then the people can understand.  I have heard the hon member Miss Xulu saying before, the people do not understand what is going on, why they should pay rates and what are these services charges that they pay.  What are they paying them for.

Maritzburg is different, because everybody pays sewerage charges, everybody pays for refuse removal as a separate charge.  If you then impose rates on the people of Edendale there is no difficulty.  It is equitable.

What I was trying to get, and perhaps I did not express myself correctly, was that there was an issue which needs to be addressed.  The report which the subcommittee and the Portfolio Committee put forward addressed that issue and clearly the message, we are not talking on the same wave length on that particular issue.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR G HAYGARTH:  The second issue is then the question of deeming rates on the land in ~Umlazi~ to be rates, when you are now dealing with the situation where you are imposing rates and the person is not the owner.

I understand that the City of Durban made an application to the Minister some six months ago, and I am only quoting newspaper comments, I do not know whether that is true or not, asking that in so far as the rates is concerned that the resident be deemed to be the owner, for the purposes of imposing those rates and being able to collect them.  If he is not the owner and a registered owner, how are you going to court to collect those rates?  It was a simple question.  That is the difficulty that I believe that Durban is facing.  They say they have had no response from the Minister for six months.

If they are going to collect the rates that are due or the service charges that are due, whatever it is, it is a difficult situation.  Unless the Minister, within the powers which he has in terms of the proclamations to make laws, he can do it.  It is looking to the Minister to co-operate with local authorities to assist them in initiating charges which the people will understand and be capable of being paid and collected from the people.  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Bhamjee who will address the House for six minutes.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Chair, I wish to firstly refer to the document or the report of the Minister on page 8 and page 9 where he the hon Minister states that major problems facing local authorities in the coming financial year is that of financial crises, and on page 9 again he repeats the same comment.

I think it is a worrying factor.  We all must take note that if you intend improving the general quality of life and to ensure that there are viable local authorities, then Councillors and other experts need to come in to assist the process.  The Minister has alluded to the fact that he is going to try to put a mechanism in place and we welcome that.

However, at one of our Portfolio Committee meetings, the Minister also indicated that the TLCs were irresponsible using the financial reserves built up by previous councils, over many years.  He went further and singled out Pietermaritzburg, where he said reserves could soon be exhausted.  I think that only a National Party thinker, still trapped in the ~apartheid~ mould of Local Government could make such remarks.

Firstly, the Minister is rumour-mongering.  I challenge him to tell this House right now, what the Pietermaritzburg reserves are and how much has the TLC used up?

Secondly, the reserves act as a buffer to help liquidity.  When the Mayor was asked about this he said that there is gross reluctance by the treasury to dip into it.  It is a buffer for unexpected demands on financial reserves, for example natural disasters.  The Pietermaritzburg TLC is well aware that the buffer is necessary to manage its liquidity situation as it receives rates income eight months into the financial year.  I will come back to that issue in a few seconds.

Further, the Minister is perpetuating the idea, again it is somewhat sort of a National Party tactic, that the rates base of our towns and cities were built up by ratepayers only.  He conveniently overlooks the fact that under the National Party rule, commercial and industrial development was concentrated in the cities, to the detriment of the townships.

The townships were deliberately planned to be dormitories and nothing else.  As a result township dwellers had to sweat, work and buy virtually all their requirements in towns and so became indirect ratepayers.  In other words, they kept sales going, propped up the profitability of the CBD sites, which in turn kept land values up, and so the commercial and industrial rates base of our towns and cities were developed.  Thus, even under the ~apartheid~ Local Government, with Minister Miller at the helm, as he was in Natal in the 1980s, everyone contributed to the rates income and so the reserves built up by the local authorities.  Such reserves are not white nest eggs as Minister Miller seems to think, they were based on the exploitation of township dwellers, and, on exorbitantly higher rates paid by those communities restricted to the group areas.

The TLC budget which is very well balanced, especially the Pietermaritzburg one, has kept rates down close to the inflation rate, it granted deserving group areas rebates, it maintained current assets and concentrated development in the former township.  Despite all this, Minister Miller, via the newspapers, felt it fit to say that the Pietermaritzburg reserves were being eaten up.

In November 1996, the Local Government Transition Act was amended, making deficit budgeting illegal.  So Minister Miller's outburst was unnecessary and irrelevant because he had the right to make the necessary ...

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  You are talking rubbish.  You are absolutely talking rubbish.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Point of order.  Point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear the point of order.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  It is not parliamentary language to shout at a member, "You are talking rubbish".  I request that the hon Minister concerned immediately withdraws that comment.

AN HON MEMBER:  He must.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the hon Minister withdraw that comment.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, it is not unparliamentary to say a member is talking rubbish.  It is not unparliamentary.

AN HON MEMBER:  Get this Department to remove the refuse.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Hey, National Party defence there.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Chairman, what is parliamentary and what is not parliamentary is not cast in concrete, it is also not God given.  It evolves.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Or National Party given.

MR V A VOLKER:  It is determined by precedent.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  By National Party precedent.

AN HON MEMBER:  What precedent?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I would like to have the opportunity to finish what I am saying.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Continue.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I think if it offends it is unparliamentary.  It certainly does offend.  I therefore request the hon Minister to immediately withdraw that comment, especially the manner in which it was hurled across the floor.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr Minister.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Chairman, if I am expected to sit here and have people say that I said things which I did not say ...

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Point of order, Chairperson.  Point of order.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  ... I am not prepared to withdraw that comment.  In my view, what I said was accurate.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear the point of order from Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Chairperson, the point of order that I wanted to take.  The hon Minister has an opportunity to respond at the end of the debate.  That is his right.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Minister has not responded as to whether he is prepared to withdraw the comment or not.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  For the sake of peace and quiet, I will withdraw it.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  Mr Bhamjee, you may proceed.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Sir, effectively when a budget of the TLC is to be passed it has to get the Minister in charge to approve it.

If there was a deterioration in the reserves and if the TLC was dipping into it, the Minister had the opportunity to address that issue, and to correct what he actually thought was going wrong as far as the city's reserves were concerned.

I think that the point has been made that if a comment is made, then we want the facts.  If the facts are not available that we cannot accept opinion as being the truth or as the gospel truth, especially if it comes out from the mouth of a Minister.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  I also wish to allude to the fact that the National Minister indicated that she will be introducing, in the near future, special mechanisms to try and ensure that local authorities and councillors are empowered, especially on issues relating to housing.  I trust that the Minister will take that very, very seriously.  His report has clearly indicated that he will do so.  I trust that that will move in a very efficient and fast manner so that the problems that we are facing at Local Government level, problems as far as delivery etcetera, the experts will come in and assist the process.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Bhamjee.  I now wish to call upon ~Inkosi~ Khawula to address the House for seven minutes.

~INKOSI~ C KHAWULA:  

TRANSLATION:  Thank you sir, it is the same thing as the length of time for which I am going to speak.  It is wrong, Mr Chairman, that houses are not built for people in the rural areas.  Houses are built in the towns only, whereas the tax that is paid is the same everywhere.  I am requesting that houses are built for them also.

Chairman, I want to speak about projects which I see there in the rural areas, where communities work together with Local Government.  These projects have built up an understanding between the people, so that people do not discriminate, and keep on saying, "He belongs to this party, and he belongs to this party, and he belongs to this party".

There in the rural areas people are building halls, they are building schools, they are building creches, they are building football fields, they are building tennis courts, all the different parties are working together.  Now discrimination between people is coming to an end, because our youth no longer have the time to wander around thinking of all manner of evil things.

On Saturdays and Sundays people go to play sport on those things that have been built.  Now people are together, all the parties are one.  This thing of saying this party, and that party, and the other party is at an end, and the other party.  Also they no longer have the time to go and do these corrupt things, because there is no time now.  They do not have time to play around.  Associations are now being formed in the rural areas.

Now, Chairman, my request is Father Mr Steve Tshwete must give us money to support these things that are being done so that they do not come to an end.

Mr Chairman, I must say that I am in agreement with what was said by Mr Mkhwanazi, when he said on a certain day that the banks were created and structured in such a way as to benefit the people of other lands, because they wanted to start colonialism in this country, in order that our traditions could be changed.

I also want to say, that on a certain day Mr Gwala spoke and said banks are structured in such a way as to benefit the communities that they serve in that land.

The most important thing is this, Mr Chairman.  We have a bank of KFC which was built for us by ~Inkosi~ Buthelezi.  No, he founded it, he founded it.  These banks of KFC do not make people pay interest, they also do not require title deeds.  Now the other banks require title deeds.  That is why this new law has started where it is said the traditions must be changed, and people must have title deeds, in order that houses can be built for them.

Mr Chairman, let me express my thanks.  I merely got up to say these things because as far as this Department is concerned, it is not a Department that I normally speak about.  I wanted to speak about the type of life that is experienced in the rural areas now, because these problems that I heard my sister Miss Xulu speak about are no longer there in the rural areas.

In the rural areas people have come together, the youth is of one mind, people are just running around normally.  You would not hear it said there that the children are fighting or chasing a child of a certain political party.  People are of one mind.  Development has taken place in a way which is uniting.  Sport and recreation happens in a united way in the rural areas.  The youth is one and they are united.  You people must not go from here and go and cause strife.  Thank you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: I now wish to call upon ~Inkosi~ Mlaba to address the House for six minutes.

~INKOSI~ Z N MLABA:  Mr Chairman and the House.  I would like to focus on the Local Government sector, be it its strengths, weaknesses or threats and also the service and the development delivery.

When one tries to address Local Government issues one cannot simply brush aside some important things like successes and the problems and its threats.

When the voters went to the polls for the first time in November 1995 and in June last year, it meant the end of the ~apartheid~ Local Government.  This unfortunately aroused the expectations of our people.  People thought that the much awaited and balanced service to the communities in both urban and rural areas would be realised, as a matter of concern.  As much as I welcome the budget, I thought that Local Government should have been one of the departments, that was to be allocated a reasonably large amount of the budget, so as to meet the expectations of the millions of our people.

We are faced with a considerable amount of hard work, to correct and develop the model of both the rural and urban Local Government.  Mr Chairman, you will agree with me if I appeal to the Government to revisit the whole question of the models of rural Local Government.

The role of ~Amakhosi~ in the regional councils should be clearly defined.  There is confusion as to what is exactly the role of traditional leaders and their structures in the Local Government.  Are they ex officio with voting powers or are they observers?  There must be a clear definition as to who in the rural areas are expected to authorise and deliver the services.  I guess the best solution here would be to ensure that the Local Government should always be kept in line with the country's Constitution.

Traditional leaders and their structures have powers and functions in terms of legislation of the former Government.  These powers and functions are similar to the powers and functions assigned to elected councillors, with whom they share areas of jurisdiction.  This virtual duplication of functions and powers leads to friction and inefficiency.

Yes, Mr Chairman, our communities are patiently and eagerly waiting for the service delivery and general development.  Municipalities and local councils must strive to provide democratic and accountable government, in which the participation of the community is encouraged.  They must ensure the provisions of sustainable services, and the promotion of social and economic development in a safe and healthy environment.

I need also to focus on the Local Government in the rural areas.  Here in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal there is only a one layer government system and that is called the regional council.  Its members are indirectly elected.  These councils must be utilised with a view to developing a democratic, effective and affordable system of Local Government.  Regional councils must, if so requested, ensure the provision of financial, technical and administrative support to local, rural and representative councils.  There the council may not impose rates on immovable property.  Their source of revenue is a payroll tax and a fuel levy.  In allocating its funds, a council must prioritise the disadvantaged areas.

The areas of jurisdiction of most representative and rural councils usually include only non-urban settlements such as commercial farming areas and tribal lands.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

~INKOSI~ Z N MLABA:  These councils do not have any or have the same objectives and developmental duties as their urban counterparts.

The whole system, we in the Province inherited from the Joint Services Board, does not seem to offer any change.  There is a dire need to develop a process for working out a model for rural Local Government.  Fortunately the Ministry of Provincial Affairs and Constitutional Development is working towards the White Paper on Local Government in South Africa.

As KwaZulu-Natal we need to contribute towards the development of our model of rural Local Government, if we want to see peace, stability and economical growth in the Province.

The delivery of the housing process seems to be too slow.  The Minister has announced that his Department and the Provincial Board will be taking initiatives to improve the situation.  We hope the Minister will honour this announcement as we are under tremendous pressure to have our people sheltered.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

~INKOSI~ Z N MLABA:  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ndabezitha.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mrs Downs to speak for four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I must say that I do not envy the Minister in his task.  I think he has the area where there is the most ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MRS J M DOWNS:  Sorry?

AN HON MEMBER:  I am obliged to Sutcliffe.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have given you permission to speak.  You may proceed.

MRS J M DOWNS:  He is probably in the area where there is the most expectation.  I think people are expecting such a lot of housing and of Local Government.  They are expecting their lives to change and they are expecting to be transformed.  I think that he has not been able to do so, not because of any fault of his own.

I would like to say that I congratulate the Minister on a comprehensive report, and thank him for that and for the time and concern that he took in preparing it for this House.  I would also like to say that I sympathise with the difficulties that he has had in delivering.  Maybe on a little bit of the brighter side, I come from the area which is adjacent to the Lovu Township development.  The front page in our newspaper, our little local newspaper article said that it would cost domestic workers R250 -a one time payment to get a house in that area.

Unfortunately there are no more left, but to the domestic workers of the area, I am sure that this is a dream which they never thought they would see happen.  There are still houses that are available for a one time payment of R1 200.  I think for the majority of people in our country this represents somewhat of an achievement, and on behalf of those people in my area, I certainly would like to thank the Minister for those achievements.

On the Local Government side.  I think he is facing even more problems with Local Governments in a crisis.  Some of them just without the capacity to develop further, without the capacity even to collect rates.  I hear that some of the Local Governments have not even been able to send out bills, never mind actually getting on the road to collecting rates.

I think that what has been exacerbating this, and which is a moral inconsistency and something which I find incomprehensible.  On the news on the radio on my way here this morning there was a big noise about one of our North local councillors who has not paid rates for some years, and is in debt to his own Local Government for thousands and thousands of Rand.

This kind of position is just not on.  Councillors who have not paid their arrear rates and have made no attempt to address them should be drummed out of office.  They are supposed to be setting an example and they are supposed to be concerned.  I cannot understand why this man is still in office.  It is beyond me.

I think that Local Government is going to require some radical rethinking.  I believe that we are nowhere near even halfway along the process of transformation.  Some of the decisions that we have made and some of the constitutional decisions that we have made, I think are not going to be workable.  I hope that the Minister has put in place some contingency plans.  I would like to ask both the Minister and the members of the ruling party nationally that are here today, what are they going to do if Local Government collapses?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Half a minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I think I will just end on that note.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I was not trying to intimidate you.

MRS J M DOWNS:  No, I was not intimidated.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Ngema who will address the House for 13 minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  He is not in the House.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh, he is not in the House.  I will then call upon Dr Sutcliffe to address the House for six minutes.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, Chair.  Can I have his time as well please?  I stand up to conclude the ANC's side of the debate.  I have listened to some mealie-mouthed liberals today.  I will begin with one of them.  The hon Roger Burrows who had the audacity to stand up in this House and point at Howick.

Let us talk about the facts of Howick.  When our people throughout the Province, whether it was ANC, IFP, National Party got elected to office, and they moved into the TLCs, the chief executive officers pretty much said to them adopt existing rules of order.

Those existing rules of order came from white local authorities in every case.  They did not adopt KwaMashu Town Council's rules of order, they adopted the Durban Council's.

Once they get into office they then try and change these things.  Let us deal with the case of Howick.  In Howick the meetings are open, but there is a problem with those rules.  I will tell you now that in Howick it is the DP member of that council, Councillor Tidbury, I think, who has been appointed to Chair and convene the Committee dealing with changing those rules of order.  Yet you have the audacity to stand up here today, when your own hon member has not even ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please!

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  That hon member has not even convened a meeting to change these rules of order there, and yet the Democratic Party stand here and say, "These rules are bad".  Let us get the facts here correctly.  The facts are that the rules of order are not the correct rules of order.  We need to change those rules of order.  Let us collectively ensure they do and when the hon members of the Democratic Party are charged with that task of convening meetings, get off your butt and do something about it.

Hon Chair, a second issue that we have discussed today, is people who still want to talk about the evolution of our society.  After all we have been in office now for three years.  We should start accepting the notion that there is a major disjuncture between what happens in former white urban areas and the rest of our Province.

In those rural areas we do need a redistribution of resources.  Human, financial, technical resources into those rural areas to assist those communities in that process of governance.  We cannot use terms like the Constitution is referring to, when it uses the terms "within administrative and financial capacity".  That is capacity that democratic Local Governments have.

I would prefer it that hon member Volker does not use those terms, as if implying, because some people have been empowered in the past, we just draw the walls around those people and let the Ntuzumas of the world or the ~Ulundi~s of the world or the Nqutus of the world simply remain in their poverty.  They cannot remain in that poverty.

I think we must talk a little bit about where this Province ...

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  What is the problem?  I think we need to talk quite seriously about where this Province should go.  One of the things I would say to the hon MEC is, that it is an indictment in this Province, that the Government of this Province around the Masakhane campaigns that were being launched and run throughout the country, nothing happened here.  It was a little squeak here.

On those weekends when the ANC went out in their thousands to run the Masakhane and people's campaigns, and people's weekends, we heard a squeak from the Government here.  Nothing was actually said.  Masakhane is about building our nation.  It is about creating patriots, patriots who do not think of party politics first, patriots who actually say, "I want to build my community.  I want to deliver services in my community".  Not to view things as the hon Bartlett views it in the sense that houses are either for the ANC or the IFP and not the National Party.  It is houses for communities.

We want to see the Masakhane campaign beginning to build this Province, and it should be.  Government in this Province is well placed to put that at the centre of the agenda, not some little squeaks that come up every so often that Masakhane is there.  That is the first area we must focus on.

The second area is clearly the issue of financing.  The hon Gordon Haygarth has put forward ways in which we can address the existing difficulties in dealing with the legislation.  You do not have to implement the rating system in the way in which you autocratically say from the centre, "This is how it is done".  Rather build up and get people to pay those service charges, higher and higher amounts, and that ultimately will cover it. 

Let us find unique innovative flexible ways in which we can address the issue of rating and payment figures.  So on financing there is a lot that we have to do.

The third area that we must deal with, and here I make a special appeal to the IFP, even though they appear to be boycotting this debate today.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  We must do something about rural Local Government.  Let us stand up and face the fact that the ~Amakhosi~ and the Iziphakanyiswa Act, anyone who reads that will read that that was an instrument used by the National Party Central Government to simply impose its wishes on even traditional leaders.  When you look at the objects and functions contained in that Act, that Act is not an Act that empowers traditional leaders.

What we need is Local Government now that empowers communities, builds those communities and creates a society of which we are all proud.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I know that in terms of our Rules if a member is not in the House when he is supposed to speak he is not allowed to come and speak again.  In the interests of peace I would like to allow the hon member Mr Ngema to address the House for 13 minutes.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  In the interests of justice because really I mean ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Unless the members feel very strongly about it.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M V NGEMA:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, I notice some members may be supporting you or opposing you but Mr Vincent Ngema is one of the finest gentlemen we have, and they should not disturb him.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Mr Ngema, the floor is yours.  Let us hear Mr Ngidi.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Mr Chairman, whilst I support the ruling that Mr Ngema must be given a chance to speak, but I think members must respect the House.  A member cannot just walk away when he knows that he is supposed to speak and expect that the Chairperson or the Speaker will then think for him.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for that comment, Mr Ngidi.  The floor is yours, Mr Ngema.

MR M V NGEMA:  Mr Chairman, I first wish to thank Mr Rajbansi for his comments and compliments.  Secondly, I do agree with the sentiments expressed by Mr Ngidi and only to say that he should be aware that a responsible member before he leaves he takes the list and counts the number of members before his turn and then moves out.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M V NGEMA:  Nevertheless, Mr Chairman, I thank you for allowing me to speak.  Mr Chairman, hon members, he who does not learn from history is a fool.  Road signs are only useful to road users who are willing to assimilate the information they provide and take it into account as they drive along.

In Biblical terms the apostle Paul warned the Christians in Corinth to take note of what had happened to people of his royal whenever they disregarded God's guidance.  I wish to quote him on the first Corinthians, Chapter 10 verse 11 when he says, and I quote:

	These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfilment of the ages has come.

It is often said that history has a tendency of repeating itself and in Zulu we have this saying:  amanzi lapho ake ama khona aphinda ame.

Whenever I have had the privilege of addressing your House on Local Government matters, I have always felt constrained to warn against the kind of obsession some of us have, that our freedom means that the past experience in setting up Local Government structures has no more relevance to us, as we go about setting up substructures for service delivery to local community needs.

The value of history is not in repeating the mistakes of the past, but it lies in identifying errors in good time and finding relevant solutions in time to avoid repeating.

On 19 April 1997, the hon Premier and the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, witnessed the blending together in a harmonious working relationship between all ~Amakhosi~ of Ndwedwe, 18 of them, as traditional Local Government structures and the new elected councillors within the Ilembe regional council, for the common good of the local community.

The main contributing factor to the kind of defective service delivery in Ndwedwe, is the extent to which that community has organised itself into a community development structure, apexed by the NDC which stands for Ndwedwe Development Committee.

Minister Zuma's comments on that occasion, were that he had learnt from the people of Ndwedwe how it was a lie, the assertion by some that traditional authority structures or Government cannot coexist with western-type structures.  These two must always reflect each other.

The Premier on that day made a firm commitment to take that as a model for the Province.  We must do away with the mentality that forces people to denounce who they are before they can be accepted as normal.  The essence of our struggle has been to resist these tendencies from those who colonised us, and later those who believed that our full participation in governing this country would upset the normality of our society in South Africa.

Similarly, any simplistic view which just assumes that traditional communities cannot have the security of tenure before the westernised Local Government, is a misleading one.  I was very interested in what the hon Minister, Mr Jeff Radebe, had to say at the NCOP on 13 May this year, when he said that, and I quote him:

	Our objective of aligning Government policy, programmes and budgets is about to become a reality.

My understanding is that the Minister is saying that the above instruments of Government, will be aligned to communities as they are in terms of their needs.  I am hoping that my understanding is a correct one, because the alternative would be too ghastly to contemplate.

It is therefore exciting to note the degree of our achievements in relation to the following programmes:

-	Local Government training as reported on by the Minister.
-	Local Government elections in spite of all the challenges posed by the attempts to change the rules at every corner by some of the players.
-	Development facilitation, particularly the facilitation of establishment of development committees and capacity building.

We also applaud the emergence of activities such as the promotion of adult education, generating the local economic development communities, enabling such communities to progress towards increasingly self-dependence and self-sustainability.  Particularly, the provision of such guidance as would support them in assessing outside funding for infrastructural and other development.

We must also take the opportunity, Mr Chairperson, to join you on behalf of the poorest of the poor communities of KwaZulu-Natal, in singing our profound praises to the Development Bank of Southern Africa, Operation Jump-Start, Ithuba Trust, the RDP programme and the former Joint Services Boards, which have contributed to the development of our communities.  To this list I add the Independent Development Trust, the National Economic Forum and Engen of South Africa.

We in this House praise these institutions, because they have become the pioneers in this most important pillar of a sustainable future, in the development of this Province.  We hope that others will take a leaf out of their book.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I wish to stress the importance of co-ordination between this Ministry with other Ministries, such as Traditional Affairs, which have a particular role in community development.  The philosophy of the anti-Cornish movement in Canada was based, among others, on the principle of the supremacy of the individual.  This is our target in all our Government programmes of good governance.  Let us, as Government, adapt to the needs of the people, as opposed to attempting to change the people to what we perceive.

Most African states tried to impose western-type of democracy and structures of Government, but Zimbabwe after walking that road is now on its way back trying to revive and strengthen as opposed to the destruction of traditional authority and their role in Local Government.  The history of Africa, not of us, is there for our empowerment, as we observe and avoid committing the same mistakes.

Mr Chairperson, I wish to say that in response to the question of observing the Constitution, I want to say that Constitutions are made by men for the benefit of men.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M V NGEMA:  Yes, it is in that sense, they are included.  By men I mean human beings.  But people are not made by Constitutions for whatever purposes.  I thank you, Mr Chairperson, for the opportunity.  

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR M V NGEMA:  One minute left.  Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Concerning participation in Masakhane, I want to say that we will always participate in programmes like Masakhane, as fellow citizens of South Africa but we do make a distinction, that we would not need any Masakhane programme if people had not embarked on destructive policies which encouraged people not to pay.  I thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Finally, I wish to call upon the hon Minister, Mr Miller, to respond.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Chairman, prior to today, I obviously fallaciously used to pride myself on having a good personal relationship with every member in this House.  I in fact have gone out of my way, or at least I thought I had, to particularly try and be accessible and helpful and give information over and above what was necessary for me to give to members.  Earlier this week, I actually went beyond what was required of me and helped and demonstrated a collegial spirit towards a member of this House, where we did a duty together on behalf of the Province.

I want to say, having listened twice today to the embittered, jaundiced, vitriolic, poisonous diatribe [LAUGHTER] of the hon Bhamjee, and that is a misnomer...  I want to say, Mr Chairman, that at this late stage in my political career, for what it has been worth, I suddenly realise that perhaps the time has come to put that kind of nonsense behind me.

When people set the scene and the battle lines and they draw them to the extent that the hon Bhamjee did today, then he must fully appreciate that he will receive in like measure, and having made a very sincere and genuine effort to be co-operative and helpful to the said member, I just want to say that in regard to that between now and the next budget he can consider himself politically dead.  [LAUGHTER]

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Chairperson, I am sorry. 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Chairperson, I actually think that the hon Minister is crossing some boundary that is uncalled for.  First of all, I let it go by when he said that the hon Bhamjee was a misnomer, because what he actually meant was that the hon member is not honourable.  I think he has now actually crossed the boundary that is unacceptable.  I request him to withdraw his last comments.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Which particular one, Mrs Cronje?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Politically dead and just shortly before that there was actually an implied threat, that if he draws the battle lines then he can expect likewise, but more particularly that he must consider himself politically dead.  I think for an hon Minister to say that to a member is unacceptable.  The hon member has of necessity to approach the Minister in his capacity as Minister, and the Minister is now speaking in his capacity as Minister.

If he declares a member of this hon House politically dead it means by necessary implication that he will not reply to questions coming from the hon member, he will see him as dead.  I find that totally unacceptable and I think coming from an hon Minister that must be withdrawn.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Minister Miller, what will be your response to that?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Whatever the interpretation is put on what I have said is by the hon Whip, that is the hon Whip's opinion.  Everything that I am obliged to answer for the hon member he will get, but I am not obliged to go out of my way as I have, and then sit here and face what I had to face today, not even factual information, but which goes down on the record of this House.  I do not believe that any Minister in this entire debate has had to face anything like the hon Bhamjee chose to deliver here today.  So I withdraw nothing and I await your ruling, sir.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are there any members who would like to comment on this matter?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, I want to preface my comment by the point ...

AN HON MEMBER:  Do you have a point of order?

MR A RAJBANSI:  The chairman requested me.  You shut up.  [LAUGHTER]

MR B V EDWARDS:  Point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr Edwards.  Can we hear Mr Edwards.  Are you rising on a point of order?

MR B V EDWARDS:  On a point of order.  That is right.  I will sit down.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr Rajbansi, you may proceed.

MR A RAJBANSI:  You asked members if any members have any comment to make.  Mr Chairman, I did not criticise the Minister in my speech, but parliamentary debate is an acceptable thing.

If the Minister is of the view that he was hit below the belt he should hit below the belt, but to issue a threat that a member is politically dead, if you criticise in an open debate, is a threat to parliamentary democracy.  I feel the Minister has overstepped his mark with due respect.  He can read my entire speech, I praised him.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr Ngema, can I hear what you have to say?

MR M V NGEMA:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I think the comments by the Chief Whip of the next largest majority party have been noted by the House.  The Minister has drawn the lines as to what he meant.  Therefore in what he meant, I do not read any threat.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, if there are no further speakers I would like to comment on this matter.  I feel that what the Minister has said is not necessarily unparliamentary, but of course it is a threat.  Anybody could hear that he was threatening and that he was not going to have any good dealings with the member concerned.

I just need to get assurance from the Minister that he is going to do whatever he is obliged to do in terms of his position as Minister in dealing with Mr Bhamjee.  That is what we would like to hear.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Sir, I have already given that undertaking.  I do not at all differ with you in that regard.  I always fulfil my parliamentary duties and my parliamentary responsibilities to the letter with everyone.  I had tried in many instances to go further than that.  I am not prepared to go further with those who take liberties and accuse me the way they have today.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, I do not know whether Mrs Cronje has anything to add.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I will accept your ruling, Chairperson.  I think I have made my point.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think the point has been made that that kind of talk from the Minister is not expected from him as Minister in his position, but of course he has given us his undertaking that he will honour whatever he has to do in his position as Minister.  In that case I will rule that he does not withdraw what he has said, under the condition that he will honour whatever obligation he is supposed to honour as a Minister in this Parliament.  You may proceed, Mr Minister.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I might say that I was interrupted in midstream there.  I have still got some more to say.  [LAUGHTER]

In regard to the criticism the hon member made in regard to what I allegedly said about Pietermaritzburg and its reserves.  I would draw to his attention the report in the Natal Witness, that followed the particular discussion we had in the Portfolio Committee, and where he will see that it was accurately and properly reported.

I in fact was using Pietermaritzburg, since we were sitting in that city, as an example, when I said, that if a town uses reserves, capital reserves to fund recurrent expenditure that town will go down the financial tubes.

I believe that that statement is absolutely accurate, right.  We used Pietermaritzburg as an example on that particular occasion.  There was nothing in there that said that Pietermaritzburg was going down the tubes, or that it was necessarily using its reserves.  He will see for himself that it was reported in the Witness exactly as I had said it.

All I want to say is that, if on the basis of that, all sorts of attacks about Nationalist pasts and all the unpleasant things that he had to say, if that was justified then, Mr Chairman, more than my anger in response is justified.

I also want to say to you, Mr Chairman, that I prepared here a document which runs to nearly 12 pages, in explicit detail, concerning what the Sakhasonke project is doing.  What it is doing in many fields which are not related directly to housing.  All I can say, that I believe the hon Bhamjee had access to this document.  I believe that he read it but quite clearly he did not understand it.  Quite clearly he does not accept the good faith of the information that is contained in this document.  Quite clearly no matter what I was to do to try and reassure him, I would be wasting my breath.

So all I want to say is that I admit defeat.  I admit defeat.  I will never persuade the hon Bhamjee of the merits on anything that is being done in terms of this 12 page document.  I want to say that I believe that reasonable people reading this document and actually carefully perusing the ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Point of order, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  If Mr Bhamjee cannot understand a simple document why did the Minister put him on the Housing Board?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  That is not a point of order.  You may proceed, Mr Minister.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Yes, Mr Chairman, the thought struck me too, I do not know.  I do want to say that with regard to the efforts that we have made in general, it has come as a great disappointment to me.  If he were not such a nice person, the hon Mr Dlamini too might have had me make a little bit of fun of him at his expense.

He raised the question today, he said if last year in my budget, I was R28 million short and complained about it, how come that this year there is a roll over of R121 million?  That is what he said.

We lodged a document, this document, yesterday especially so that members could inform themselves to take part in today's debate.  It is in this document where I say that I was R28 million short.

I would draw to the hon member's attention the R28 million short is on the operational budget of Local Government and Housing.  The operational budget, the budget that I obtained from this Legislature.  The R121 million is not even in this Legislature's budget.  The R121 million is part of the capital allowed for subsidies.  There is no connection between the two sums of money at all.

I go to great lengths in this document to explain to people the on-budget and off-budget funding that we have to deal with.  So we have a situation too, and it was very disappointing to me to hear the statement made by my hon colleague Ms Barrett, that the budget available to me, she said, was R1,15 billion, and therefore we had only spent 29% of that.

May I ask those of you who have this document to turn to page 19.  You will see that the total amount of money available to me to be spent in the 1996/97 financial year was R463 million in round figures.  Of that we spent R341 million which constituted 73% of the total amount of money.  I was not permitted to spend one cent extra above the R463 million.

So we have a balance carried over to add to what we have been given this year, which will give me the R121 plus this year's allocation, which gives me R590 million for this year.  I then also explained that we were attempting to set a target of spending R50 million a month, and that so far this month we in fact have spent that money.

At the end of the day I am at my wits end.  Quite clearly to me it seems, and I suppose this is the lesson I have learnt out of today's debate, that the less you say the better, and the less transparent and open you are the less trouble you get into, right.  So maybe that is the approach for the future.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Could you turn the microphone on please.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  The hon Mr Naicker, I thank you, sir, for your contribution to today's budget debate as I thank all those other members for their contribution, save for those I have dealt with already.  [LAUGHTER]

You gave me some very useful support on the question of staffing.  I must say that I like your analogy when you say that if there are no cooks in the kitchen there will be no food to serve in the dining-room.  I quite agree.

I do just want to make the point, and I think that the parliamentary staff and the parliamentary management must try and deal with this.  I make every attempt to attend Portfolio Committee meetings.  When, however, the schedule of Portfolio Committee meetings makes it impossible, then I do not know how to cut myself in half.

The hon Dr Sutcliffe mentioned, for example, that Local Government Portfolio Committee meetings are scheduled every Wednesday.  Now what do I do?  Do I go to Cabinet or do I go to the Portfolio Committee meeting?  So I am asking that the management of the Legislature try and make it possible for us, it is not because we are trying to avoid attending those meetings.

There has been a great deal of concern expressed, and justifiably so about delivery.  One of the fundamental issues that it seems we have been unable to get across to members, is that in terms of the new policy, and I am not now arguing whether that policy is right or wrong, I am simply saying that in terms of the new policy, Government at no level builds houses.  Government's entire task is to help communities and individuals to build houses for themselves.  Government has never said that they will build a complete house and give it to a citizen.

Government has said that depending on your level of income they will make a once-off capital contribution towards that individual or that community, housing themselves or housing himself/herself.  Yet I hear the cry again and again and again that Government must actually build houses.  We must call for tenders.  We must go and buy a huge block of unoccupied land and we must build houses on it, and then go out to find people to come and live in the houses concerned.

All I want to say on this issue is that we here cannot work outside the constraints that are placed upon us by the policy.  If the policy is wrong please use the channels available to you to change the policy.  We, through the MINMECs and through the avenues that are at our disposal, are trying our best to make useful and sensible adjustments to policy all the time, but the basic structure of the policy is a product of the National Government.  We can either be trying to make the best of that policy or be in conflict with it.  I have chosen to try and make the best of the policy, as far as this Province is concerned.

I do want to say that it is very difficult to face a barrage of criticism by people who do not understand the basic policy under which we have to work in the first place.  It is an age old question of killing the messenger because you do not like the message.

Just briefly again on ~Sakhasonke~.  ~Sakhasonke~ has been going for eight months.  I am asked the question, in those eight months how many actual completed housing projects are there available, now resulting from the intervention of ~Sakhasonke~, which started in July last year?  Much has been made of the fact, that right now there is no completed project.  I want to venture to you that there is no project by anybody that has been completed from conception to completion within eight months.  No project has been completed and therefore that you can say Project A, B and C are a direct product of the efforts of ~Sakhasonke~.

What I do want to say to members is, if they would just do me the favour of reading carefully the explanation there.  They will see that we believe so far, already there is a potential for 81 000 housing opportunities arising from a whole variety of activities, that the Sakhasonke Joint Venture Project has been undertaking.

I am saying by all means crucify the project, but do not crucify it before it has had a chance to deliver.  My information, and I am satisfied together with my senior people that are here listening to this debate today, that in fact we have unlocked a great number of problems that we have identified, a great number of problems.  There are in fact very meaningful advantages that we have obtained from what the Sakhasonke project has done for us.

Several members have said, that the subsidies are too low.  It would make my life a great deal easier if the subsidies were doubled overnight.  It would make everybody's life a great deal easier, in exactly the same way as it would make our life easier here if we had not had any budget cuts.

In terms of the resources that this nation has at its disposal, and I should not be defending this, I should be criticising it, but it has been decreed by those that control the fiscal resources of this country, that that is the level at which subsidies can be paid.

Once again do not look at this desk and this poor individual as being the person responsible for the fact that the subsidies are set at the level at which they are.

I have got a whole page here headed, "Mr Bhamjee".  I will leave that one.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  The hon Mr Bartlett expressed great concern at the non-payment of rates and service charges, and so did a number of other members.  I want to say that it is a source of great concern.  I think it is a source of great concern that I can confidently say is shared right around this House.  We have got to try and get something done about it.

It is true of course that in communities which have been ravaged by violence, and where there is no peace in the true sense of the word, that it becomes all the more difficult to try and get any form of payment culture established.

Several members, and I will not name them, they know who they are, raised the question of housing in rural areas.  In particular in areas under traditional and communal land tenure, and indicated that of course it was necessary that attention be given to housing in those areas.

I want to say that at the NCOP meeting on Tuesday, it was very interesting to learn from the National Minister, that in fact there are very advanced negotiations taking place to relax the strict title deed tenure requirements before you can get a subsidy.  It might well be possible for tribal communities, in the future to be able to apply for a form of institutional subsidy to help the people within their area of jurisdiction acquire housing, but then where the entire tribe as an institution would be held responsible for the repayments or whatever there is that is necessary.

The hon Dr Sutcliffe in his first contribution this afternoon, wearing his Chairman of the Portfolio Committee's hat, made a very constructive contribution I thought.  I have tried my best to use the Portfolio Committee as a resource.  He indicated where that had succeeded and where that had failed.

I am only too happy to oblige, as you know for the last couple of days, I have been moaning about lack of resources, and a voluntary resource such as the Portfolio Committee is one which I happily try and use.  I think my record is proof positive of the fact that where the opportunity has presented itself we have in fact done that.

I want to say in discussions with my Superintendent General in the last 24 hours, we have resolved that we will lay before the Portfolio Committee, and I do not know which one is actually responsible, the whole question of the organisational structure.  So that you can see for yourself, because to say that we are aggrieved by the contents of some other reports about our attempts in that regard is to place the thing very mildly indeed.  We do want to hand that huge body of evidence that we have and information over to somebody to see whether they can do something with it.

In regard to legislation - I want to say that personally as a Minister, having been ready at the end of 1994 to put forward a consolidated Local Government Bill for this Province, the fact is that as I stand before you today we still have not got it, is a great disappointment to me.

AN HON MEMBER:  But it is a great joy for Ambrosini.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  I do not know to whom it is a great joy.  I want to say this, that besides anything else, that Bill will repeal 28 separate pieces of other legislation which are in place at the present time, and which greatly complicates the lives of my Department and probably also greatly complicates the lives of local authorities.

The latest version of the Bill, has been sanitised in the sense that we believe that it complies totally with the new Constitution, and the fact that it complies totally with the new Constitution causes me certain political problems.  The only thing I can say to members is that I am actively involved, right in these last few weeks, in trying to find an answer to how we can deal with that situation.

The need to address rural Local Government I acknowledge, but I want to place on record, that I have an arrangement with the National Minister that that will come out as part of the National White Paper process, and that the status quo remains in this Province, until such time as that White Paper process is completed.

The Development and Planning Bill.  We have made considerable progress.  In fact on the presentation to the Forum for Effective Planning and Development, two weeks ago, the Bill was so highly thought of by the relevant National Department and others, that it is seriously being suggested as a model to be followed by all provinces.  We in fact will be entertaining the Gauteng Development, Planning and Local Government Department, headed by their MEC for two days here in KwaZulu-Natal on the 12th and 13th June.  One of the specific purposes of them coming down is to be thoroughly briefed on the content of our Bill.

We did have certain problems with the procedure and the delays caused by getting legal certificates, the delays caused by insisting on translations etcetera.  We have tried to bring several of those processes to run in parallel rather than run one after the other.  I believe seriously that we will be in a position to put this through at, if not the next sitting, the certainly at the next sitting but one of this Legislature, and it will be law this year.

I was happy that in fact we had consensus around this House on the concern about the financial position of Local Government.  We will continue to work in that spirit of consensus in that regard.  I do thank Dr Sutcliffe for commending the Department on issues of delivery.  It is at least the pleasurable part every now and then when there is a little applause for what you have tried to do.

The hon Mrs Mkhize, pointed out that housing subsidies were non-workable.  True.  I have already commented on that in general.

The question of severance packages.  I repeat what I tried to say in my earlier speech.  Would it not have been so much more sensible to have a deliberate policy of retrenchment to be able to move those who you did not want and keep those who you did?

Mr Ngidi today made a very good contribution here.  I want to pick up on one point that he made, and that is the question of demarcation.  The fact that there are wrong demarcations which have to be put right and there are new demarcations that have to be done.  I want to say that we acknowledge that that is the case, and in fact right now I look at my friend, the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee, and say I am still waiting for your two names for the Demarcation Board.  We must get together and finalise it please, as soon as possible.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):    Mr Ngidi made a very interesting observation.  He said do not play politics in Local Government.  I want to say that posterity might well show that that is about the most sensible comment we have ever had, because the politicisation of Local Government has contributed a great deal to some of the problems that we have right now.

Mr Volker spoke about transformation.  I just want to say we all support transformation.  I just want to say this, and I say this please with an element of humour attached to it, so nobody jumps up and gets angry now, least of all the Chief Whip of the second important party.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  No, no, no.  It is the next majority party.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  The next majority party.  Whatever you like to call it.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  All I want to say, some people believe that transformation equals gxoshani abelungu.  [To chase out white people]  Some people think that transformation means that.  Somebody has just said, "Yes".  So I am correct.  [LAUGHTER]

I want to say to all the people, that [white people] have got a role to play and they would like to work with you and do not just [chase] willy-nilly left, right and centre because that will damage you as much as it will damage those you [chase].

Mr Burrows made a contribution, and I am always careful there because when he makes statements I know he has probably researched them.  I did want to come to his defence on one issue.  The Councillor Tidbury issue, and I want to come to her defence, not your defence, her defence, in that in desperation the Councillor has written to me and has said that for nine months she has been trying to convene the meeting to change the rules.  In all that time the executive committee and the chief executive have found reasons why they cannot hold the meeting.  So I just want to put that down on the record.

MR R M BURROWS:  What about the councillor allowances, Mike?

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  In regard to the allowances in Howick.  May I say that the following administrative action has already been taken.  It is not going to come to an end.  It is my turn and nobody can go until I have said what I have to say.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  What I want to say here is that the Howick Council have been informed that they have acted contrary to the law, and that they must immediately reinstate the councillors allowances as contained in the determination.  They are making representations for a special dispensation that still has to be dealt with.

The whole question of the number of local authorities.  I want to say that there are some people who believe that the reduction of the number of local authorities is the panacea to financial problems.  I just want to say to you that big is not always beautiful and that many of the small local authorities are the soundest financially.

On the question of councillors' names who had not paid.

AN HON MEMBER:  I have got it.

MR P M MILLER: (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  I am glad you have got that, sir.  On the question of chairpersons of regional councils, and exactly the same problem arises with the chairman of the Exco in Durban South for example, who is a full time magistrate.  This is a non-party political issue because it happens across the political spectrum.

The Cabinet of this Province approved on Wednesday at Cabinet, a policy which is to be enforced by a set of regulations, where if the work of a councillor at any level of Local Government, directly impinges on his ability to deliver his primary responsibility to the State as a civil servant, then the councillor concerned, the instruction that has gone out from Cabinet, is to be told that you have got to choose one or the other.  You cannot both be a full-time councillor and a full-time magistrate or a full-time school teacher or a full-time nursing sister or whatever.

In regard to comments made by Miss Xulu.  I want to say that she has real reason to express the grievances that she has expressed.  I want to say that I can only refer her to page 4 in this report, where there is a whole paragraph, where we deal with the unsatisfactory situation in regard to the staff that work for the Province, but are to be transferred to Local Government.  I want to say that until we get that legislation which clearly spells out exactly what the future is to be of those people, it is going to be very difficult for us to satisfy them.

However, what is happening is that we acknowledge experiencing increased levels of personnel difficulties.  This requires continuous and regular workshops with the people, and it would seem that in the particular instances to which she refers, those workshops obviously have not been as successful.  The senior members of the staff are listening and we are going to have to look into that matter further, and to try and do exactly what you have asked us to do.

The hon Mr Rajbansi, I just wanted to put one small matter, I thank him for his contribution, but put one small matter correct.  When we went to the NCOP about the housing numbers, we said our figure of 19 000 is correct but if we used the same criteria as other provinces had used we could have made our figure 35 000.

What we in fact are saying is that our figure is correct but the people were not all using the same criteria in determining their figures.  So in actual fact on the more liberal criteria we were by far and away the second most effective of all the provinces.

To the hon Mr Haygarth, that my views on the Public Service Commission must be read as both those in the printed document, and the additional views that I expressed this morning.  I just want to emphasise that we are very conscious of the effect of the size of an establishment, but what we are also very conscious of is that if you have an establishment and you do not manage it properly then that is even more wasteful.

It is after all in very few posts in terms of numbers where we have the problem.  Our problem lies with appointments in the managerial cadre.  My Department would even be prepared to make sacrifices at other levels to make sure that we could finance those posts, but to have a ship without a captain or a kitchen without a cook, to us seems to be a hopeless alternative.  ~Inkosi~ Khawula spoke about housing in rural areas.  I have mentioned that there are definite moves in that regard.  I am sure he will be pleased.

One of the problems with the hon ~Inkosi~ Mlaba is that he, like others, inevitably has this schizophrenic personality.  He does not know whether he is a traditional leader or a member of the House or whatever.  [LAUGHTER]  When you can be an ~Inkosi~ when it suits you and then not be an ~Inkosi~ when it suits you, it is one of those difficult situations.  [LAUGHTER]

What I want to say, the real contribution we need, we need ~Inkosi~ Mlaba and ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe and ~Inkosi~ Khawula to get together, and come up with some solution as to how the traditional leadership is to be accommodated in Local Government.  I want to say that in the White Paper process that is going on right now, I have submitted to the political committee running that process; I have submitted to them papers dealing with the ~Amakhosi~ and ~Iziphakanyiswa Act~, the ~Ingonyama~ Trust Act, and everything, and I have said, "Now look, these are realities.  If you do not deal with them in the White Paper the White Paper will have not been a thorough document".

I hear members saying, [you must finish].  One more to go.  [LAUGHTER]  Dr Sutcliffe, on the ~Masakhane~ campaign.  I just want to say this, that if we have been making a little squeak here and a little squeak there, it is because we are acting on an agreement reached at National level, that the ~Masakhane~ campaign must be driven by Local Government.  We have, perhaps not been squeaking loud enough, but we certainly have been making tremendous efforts to get Local Government to accept that responsibility.

On the question of rural Local Government.  Again that was raised.  The fact of the matter is we acknowledge that some solution has to be found.  I just want to say that a solution will not be found, if it thinks that the likes of the traditional leadership are just going to vanish into thin air, and will not be there in the future.

To Mr Ngema I want to say thank you for recognising our efforts in development facilitation.  May I close and say that the biggest reward we could get is if you could help us appoint a Chief Director: Development Facilitation.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Minister Miller.  At this point we have to hand over to the Deputy Speaker of the House for him to close the proceedings of today.  I now wish to report to you, Deputy Speaker, that we have had deliberations and debated vote 8, which we have concluded.  The Committee has not completed its work and we wish to request leave to sit on the next sitting day of this House.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED
	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  House resumes.  Mr Deputy Chair of Committees, I thank you for the report on progress and that finalises our business of today.  I hope that there is no announcement by the Premier.  The only Minister who is around has not been instructed to give any announcements.

I have one announcement to make to the House, and that is as reported some time during the week, the Speaker will not be able to attend the sitting on Monday and possibly on Tuesday.  He is still recovering.  The Deputy Speaker, that is myself, will not be available for the whole of next week, starting from Monday.  The Chair of Committees will not be available on Monday, because she is off sick and will only be able to start work early in June.  In the absence of those three presiding officers, Mr Mohlomi, the Deputy Chair of Committees, will therefore act as Speaker for the sittings of next week, on Monday and Tuesday.  That is the only announcement I wanted to make.

That then concludes our business for today.  The House therefore is adjourned until 10 o'clock on Monday next week.  The House is adjourned.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 14:48 UNTIL
	10:00 ON MONDAY, 19 MAY 1997

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - ELEVENTH SITTING DAY
	MONDAY, 19 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 10:02 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE ACTING SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

I have no announcements to make at this point.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

Mr Minister.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE:  No announcement, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  No announcements from the Premier.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

Yes, Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the Rules Committee has an instruction to table an amended set of Rules during the course of this session.  The Committee had a final meeting this morning and wished to table their reports today.  Unfortunately it is not ready.  It will be ready after lunch and I wonder with your permission whether that could be tabled after the lunch break.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I am sure that will be acceptable because you have given notice of it.  Yes, Minister Zulu.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):  Mr Speaker, I wish to table the annual report of the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  The hon member Mrs Mtalane.

DR L J T MTALANE:  Mr Speaker and hon House.  I wish to table the Health Portfolio Committee progress report for the year 1996/97.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  We have no further reports.  I wish to move on to the next item.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

Mr Ngidi.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I wish to give notice that I will move in the next sitting of this House as follows:

	THIS HOUSE NOTING:

	1.	that the future of the Province lies with its youth;

	2.	there is a need therefore to develop a comprehensive youth development policy;

	3.	that our youth have been the section affected the most by violence, crime and other ills of our society; and

	4.	that the past regime's policies led to the marginalisation of our youth.

	THEREFORE RESOLVES:

		to urge the Department of Social Welfare to develop a comprehensive policy and programmes for youth development.

Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mr Ainslie.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I shall move on the next sitting day of this House that:

	NOTING:

	1.	the unexpectedly high levels of theft of Government property and fraud in several Government Departments by members of the civil service; and

	2.	the apparent difficulty in instituting criminal prosecutions and internal disciplinary measures against culprits 

	THIS HOUSE RESOLVES:

		to establish a multi-party commission to recommend measures, including any necessary amendments to the Public Service Commission Act, to ensure that civil servants suspended while investigations are in progress are suspended without pay and the services of those found guilty of such misconduct are immediately terminated.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mr Redinger.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I will move on the next sitting day that:

		That this House notes with disgust and abhorrence the escape from the New Hanover Police cells of five suspects held in connection with serious crimes including the killer of farmer, Mr Werner Schrlach, on Tuesday, 13 May 1997 at 17:45.

		We now call on the Minister of Safety and Security to urgently investigate the circumstances surrounding this breakout, which clearly indicates neglect on behalf of the prison personnel and at worst collusion, and to report his findings to this House forthwith.

Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Redinger.  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

		That this hon House is shocked at the appalling conditions that exist in many of the schools in the Province where there are no basic necessities of life such as water and toilets and requests the hon Premier to earmark all the revenues that are to be collected from the casinos, site and route operations for the provisions of water, toilets and sports facilities in our schools on the basis of where the need exists the greatest.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  That dispenses with the point about Motions and Bills.  We now move on to the next item.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I wish to announce that the House is now transformed into a Committee of Supply and we are now going to debate vote 13, that is Social Welfare and I wish to call upon the hon Minister of Welfare to address the House.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, can I get clarification?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  On a point of order, sorry.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Do the Rules allow that you can continue?  I do not think it prevents you from continuing.  All you do is just take one cap off and give yourself another cap.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can we get some clarity on the issue of Rules?

MR R M BURROWS:  Yes, with respect, Mr Speaker, what you are hearing around the House I think is correct.  That you must actually end the function of this House.  Step out, disrobe, step back in, with respect.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Maybe another Chairman of Committee should take over from me.  I think I will request Mr Haygarth to take over from me and then I may come back later.  At this stage the House is being transformed into a Committee of Supply and Mr Haygarth will take the chair.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE
MR G HAYGARTH TAKES THE CHAIR

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now call on the hon Minister G L Zulu to address the Committee.  Hon Minister.

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

VOTE 13: DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):  Mr Chairman, as an introduction.

1.	INTRODUCTION

The year 1996 was an eventful year for my Department.  1997 promises to be even more so.

If I were to attempt to deal with all we have been through I would keep you here for a week, so I will concentrate on a few significant areas.

Not least of the many occurrences, it appears that my Department's name has been changed behind my back.  It seems as if I only hear the name Welfare and Pensions.

It behoves me to remind this House that in terms of the 1994 Provincial Service Act the Department is currently still the Department of Social Welfare.

This is not a petty semantic point.  It is a well-known psychological ploy that repetition of an inaccuracy leads to belief that it is the truth.

My Department has a significant role to play in many aspects of Human Development.  

The repetition therefore of Pensions in its title, whilst referring to an important part of the function, places the emphasis in precisely the wrong place, on dependency.  This negates the critical developmental role my Department plays and must increasingly play in the future.

2.	MISSION

In keeping with my Department's mission we have made much progress towards achieving the goals set out therein.  In the development of a comprehensive, accessible welfare service for all, emphasis is increasingly shifting to developmental work.

-	this involves extensive retraining of staff, and reprioritisation of objectives, community involvement throughout the process is a prerequisite;

-	the Department is developing, and putting in place structures to ensure effective service delivery, such structures include the liaison forums with private welfare initiative, liaison with traditional leaders and leadership structures, as well as the development of pensioner committees in all areas;

-	ongoing liaison, and the development of a good working relationship with, the Portfolio Committee, the Portfolio Committee members are informed about the progress within the Department, as well as the difficulties encountered.

3.	SOCIAL SECURITY

3.1	FRAUD AND CORRUPTION

As all present are only too well aware, some three years ago I commissioned an investigation into the fraud and corruption riddling my Department.  Today we are at last seeing the results of what has been a long and difficult road for both my Department and especially the Government Fraud and Corruption Investigation Unit.

It is with deep sadness, extreme anger, yet conversely some delight that I can today report that a number of officials of this Department, as well as other departments, have been identified as being crucial to the perpetuating of these dastardly actions.

In the past months an increasing number of critical arrests were made and the one which I regard as most significant has led to the main miscreant, on 13 February 1997 being found guilty and she is now in custody, having been found guilty on 134 counts of theft and nine counts of fraud and sentenced to five and a half years' imprisonment in the Port Shepstone Regional Court.  This conviction has led to a breakthrough on many other fronts.  I am referring to the big fish here.

In this instance the three individuals involved represent the tip of what appears to be a widespread syndicate involving numerous officials and private individuals.

Crucial to the success of this specific operation has been the role businesses play in cashing crossed Government cheques across the counter, sometimes for extremely large sums of money.  In this case, for example, it is estimated that some R3 million may be involved.  Again these specific individuals each represent a different department, Welfare, Works and Education.

In a further case relating to the acceptance of a bribe of R800 to process a perfectly legitimate and normal pension application, an employee of my Department was sentenced to R10 000 or 20 months' imprisonment, plus an additional two years' imprisonment suspended for five years, conditional on no further such crime being committed, and he has to repay the bribe to the complainant.  Appropriate internal disciplinary action in such instances is crucial.

Mr Chairman, at this point I must make a most urgent appeal to this House and the officials under their jurisdiction.  

I am utterly appalled to be informed by my Deputy Director General that despite the conviction and sentencing, the one official mentioned earlier was NOT automatically instantly dismissed.

Whilst the officer concerned's salary was stopped, after the conviction, at the time of drafting these comments some two months later, there still has to be an internal disciplinary hearing and only thereafter may she possibly be dismissed.  

No sane person can but agree with me that this is patently ridiculous.

I most strenuously urge all involved to expand every effort to ensure that the provisions in whichever legislation and/or regulation be rapidly amended to ensure instant and automatic dismissal on conviction of a crime.  Such dismissal should be retroactive to date of first arrest in any way relating to the charge convicted on, or even earlier if legally possible.

Automatic freezing and seizure of any and all assets to recover losses to the State should be mandatory.  The current situation means that a thoroughly corrupt person, who has for a very long time plundered State monies at the expense of the poor, is still entitled to a salary until the said disciplinary enquiry takes place.  This is totally unacceptable and cannot be tolerated.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):  Against all the success we are now reaping in what can only be regarded as a war, I reiterate, we must most urgently re-examine the availability and suitability of disciplinary procedures in respect of officials allegedly involved in such misdeeds.

I would urge the Director General and all responsible parties to rapidly and urgently check whether these procedures are in fact still valid and, if so, to immediately implement procedures required to rectify this situation.

Furthermore, the Provincial administration staff should be thoroughly briefed on the expeditious and correct handling of such cases.

We need to seriously evaluate whether a public servant is an ordinary mortal protected from his or her own calculated misdeeds by every comfort of modern legislation, or is he or she actually a servant of society and therefore even more accountable than the norm.  I believe that, like Caesar's wife, a public servant should be beyond reproach.  Punishment should therefore be even more severe than for the man in the street.

I personally want it clearly understood that I shall not rest until this Department is clear of all such rotten elements.  I am particularly distressed by the revelation that many individuals one would regard as utterly trustworthy are turning out to be totally unworthy of the positions they hold.  I believe we are still in for some shattering shocks in this regard.  I seriously suggest that the remaining contaminated few, pack their bags and leave with the utmost dispatch.

Every route available to counteract these criminal acts within my Department is being pursued and continuously reviewed.  

Thus liaison is, for example, ongoing between my Ministry and the Ministry of Health on areas of mutual concern and overlap, and with Cash Paymaster Services to identify and close gaps.  I must pay tribute to my colleague Dr Mkhize for his keen interest in solving these fraud cases.  His co-operation is highly appreciated.

Recently we took a step which I have long awaited and which I regard as of crucial importance to the wellbeing of this Department.

A firm of highly accredited Forensic Auditors, with a proven track record of successful conclusion of such investigations, was appointed to examine the Department's operations in the minutest detail.  This will not only assist the Government Fraud and Corruption Investigation Task Team, but will also leave the Department in a much healthier state.

The Auditor-General, Mr Chris Foster, has been of great assistance in this exercise and he assures me that any department can only benefit from such an exercise.  I am saddened to hear that he is retiring at the end of this month and wish to tender my warmest appreciation to him for his assistance in counteracting the evil within my Department.  Mr Foster attended all the meetings that we always held once a month with the investigating team.

My staff and I receive ongoing threats, and murder has been committed, ensuing from these investigations.  We have actually had to physically relocate certain key staff to ensure their security.  At National level the process we have initiated to counteract fraud and corruption is seen as an example to all other provinces.  At this point in time there is a murder case that is going on in the Supreme Court that involves the late Miss Buthelezi who was gunned down at Mpumalanga.

The National Minister of Welfare has made mention thereof at MINMEC meetings.  Recently members of the Trengrove Commission visited the Government Fraud and Corruption Investigation Task Team to explore its potential for replication or expansion.

The Task Team has established such a reputation for excellence that another National Department has handed over a major high profile case to them for follow-up.  It is necessary to emphasise that the forensic investigation is far-reaching and is not going to stop before this rot it totally eliminated.

Threats and even murder, can have no impact any more -  a process has been set in motion which can no longer be stopped.  Nobody must imagine that there is any escaping this process.

This investigation is reaching back into the past, and it will certainly continue into the future.  The dishonest amongst us are no longer safe and secure, somewhere along the line they will be caught.

Mr Chairman, it behoves us to remember, she who said she has more brains than ten men is now in gaol, where she is serving a sentence of five and a half years.  She who thinks she is protected "because the files are destroyed", there are numerous other ways of proving involvement.

He who took a bribe of R800 to process a perfectly legitimate application for pension, has been sentenced to R10 000 or 20 months as I have just mentioned, plus two years' imprisonment suspended conditionally for five years.  This individual furthermore has to repay the bribe to the complainant.  His salary was suspended on sentencing and disciplinary procedures with a view to dismissal initiated.

"Walls have ears" - the community and many officials are thoroughly fed up with this despicable behaviour and information is streaming in.  In this respect the 0800 Crime Stop line is reaping magnificent rewards.  Nobody is above the law!

I now have a sense of expectation for a renewed future with the very roots of my Department being cleansed of life-sucking leeches and flexing with the strength of healthy and dedicated branches stretching out to provide shelter and succour for our people.

3.2	LUND COMMITTEE RECOMMENDATIONS

Maintenance Grants have long been the backbone of poorer families, but as in many aspects of our society, there has been a definite racial skewing.

In order to address these inequities and to attempt to bring about equality of access within extremely limited financial constraints, the Lund Committee was commissioned.  I quote from "Recovery"  (August 1996, Volume 1, No 6):

	The Committee is set to recommend a very small Child Support Benefit, for very young children only, with no provision at all for the care-giver, (the amount of R70 a month is under discussion).  The recommendations have many positive features.  The proposed new benefit would be much more easily accessible than the old grant;

	it would end past racial inequalities, and would provide some protection against malnutrition for many children who in the past have had no aid whatsoever.  It would be linked with health strategies, such as immunisation and/or growth monitoring, and with measures to ensure universal birth registration.

There are, however, a multitude of hazards, which in our poverty ridden Province we must take note of and calculate into the equation.  Family preservation is not inherent in these new proposals.  The danger also exists that children currently within families subsisting on grants may suddenly be injected into the formal institutional system or land up on our streets.

The choices are difficult and have some potentially extreme outcomes, and will need careful and sensitive examination.  At National level this policy is being pursued with commitment, but it has elicited stringent opposition.  The negative ripple effects could be extremely severe.

3.3	GRANTS AND PENSIONS

I am receiving many complaints concerning delays in allocation or payment of Grants and Pensions.  The emphasis within social security over the past years has been to implement the new legislation.  The Social Assistance Act, No 59 of 1992 came into operation on 1 March 1996.

For the first time all social pensioners are dealt with in terms of the same uniform legislation.  Much time was spent training staff in the new legislation, something which will have to continue until staff are fully conversant with it.  This implies that from time to time there is a more severe than usual staff shortage to deal with applications.  Further delays ensue from the current fraud investigations.

Many ghost-disabled have emerged.  In one district the payments calculated out to imply that over 90% of the resident community were disabled.  This is ridiculous.  It has therefore become necessary to double-check each and every application resulting in considerable delays.

Painful though it may be, I can only again urge patience on our people.  The rationalisation of the pension systems has been cumbersome and time consuming.

Five previously incompatible and divergent old systems had to be reconciled into one modern system, the Transversal System or SOCPEN 5, which also had to reconcile on a National level.

I must salute the staff involved in this incomprehensible task at the successful launching of this system in December 1996.  The amalgamation of information for a number of other provinces is still to take place.

Whilst the timing could not have been worse in terms of the festive season and school holidays, we have waited so long for this, and it is bringing us so many benefits that I must appeal to all concerned to be very tolerant of the confusion it has undoubtedly sown in the community and the initial teething problems it is having.

For reconciliation purposes all pensioners only received the R430 in December 1996.  Any and all arrears were held back.  

This naturally created a lot of distress and suspicion, for which I can only apologise.  The long term benefits should, however, be considerable.

Currently, however, serious problems with the Transversal System are still being encountered, not the least of which relate to the unacceptable high amount of time the system is off-line and inaccessible.  A further unacceptable element is the significantly delayed response times.

These latter two relate to the centralisation of the whole system on a National level and need urgent resolution.  All this impacts negatively on production levels, and had led to an increase in the pensions backlog, rather than a decrease.

The original pension backlog, initially totally in excess of 30 000 files has received priority attention and has been reduced significantly.  The new, system induced backlog, is currently in the process of being cleared.

It is accepted that, until such time as this backlog is finalised, the negative criticism of this Department will continue.  In order to address this matter, a group of staff have been identified to work on the backlog.  Liaison with the system controllers, to address problem areas is ongoing.

It is believed that the measures taken have ensured that the problem is being satisfactorily resolved.  Meetings with the pensioner community are held throughout the Province.  Regional staff are conveying the changes in social security legislation and procedures to the people.

This trend of open communication and involvement of the stakeholders in the activities of the Department is one with which we will continue.  A matter of extreme concern is the increasing incidence of armed robberies of pension pay points.  So many souls have been lost through this process.  What a shame.

Administrative staff are exposed to situations of extreme danger.  Consideration is now being given to the privatisation of all cash payments, particularly as Cash Paymaster Services has of recent months had increased success in establishing attack-free hours.  
Administrative staff would further then be released to ensure a more adequate administrative pension service is rendered.

3.4	DEPENDENCY MIND SET

There is, however, one issue which we as Government must face squarely.  We have an extremely large deprived community which seems to be developing an entrenched attitude of State-dependency, with our people, (valid and invalid), increasingly looking to the Pensions and Grants system as their major source of income.

Families now exist on a pension intended for the healthy upkeep of one individual.  This is a very disturbing phenomenon and in our economic and developmental activities we need to vigorously attack this dependency mentality which is undermining the backbone of our once proud people.

In this belief in entitlement also lies seeds of the corruption we are having to do battle with.  As we see daily, even well paid secure officials feel they have a right to freely tap into State assets to line their pockets.  

This is an attitude of mind which can not easily be changed except in concert with the people responsible for economic development and job creation.  It must, however, be done.

We do, Mr Chairman, however need on every front and at every opportunity, to counteract this dependency mind set and to rekindle our people's latent pride and work orientation.  

Even with UBUNTU in full operation, laziness and exploitation was never tolerated.

4.	POPULATION POLICY

During this period a new National Population Policy has also been finalised.  For the past number of years this Province's Population Unit has been placed within the Welfare Portfolio.  In that time a great deal of co-operation and cohesion has developed.

The new policy, however, embodies a dramatic paradigm shift from a fertility-orientated function, with project involvement, to a mainly demographic developmental interpretive function.  

This implies a complete change in orientation, both in respect of line function service rendering, and in respect of staffing.

The responsibility for addressing demographic realities of the country and specifically, our Province, now rests with each individual department.  This is no longer the function of the Population Unit.

Each department will have to adjust its activities to accommodate these realities within its own frame of reference.  

This has long been the major criticism that departments have lodged against this unit, so the change should find universal acclaim.

Currently, for practical purposes, the Population Unit remains located in my Department, but may require relocation in the future.

I must, however, emphasise that their services and expertise are at the disposal of the whole administration and must not be seen to be an exclusive Social Welfare function and this needs to be well publicised.  There is valuable expertise available which can strengthen all our hands, not only mine.

I therefore urge all departments to contact the head of this unit, Dr Jack du Preez, and establish to what degree and where the unit can be useful to them.

5.	SOCIAL WELFARE

5.1	NEW WELFARE POLICY

The finalisation of the NEW WELFARE POLICY is at hand.  The most significant change of emphasis is the move away from institutionalisation to a developmental approach with the emphasis on the involvement of the community.  

This is a crucial policy change, although in this Province it has long been implemented in practice despite severe financial constraints.

To single out one service area only as an example.  The care of the aged.  The cost of caring for the elderly in a residential institution is extremely high.

The current policy is thus no longer to subsidise such facilities.  Only frail care will now be subsidised.  This change will of course be phased in over a period of time.  In a similar fashion, all institutional care is being reviewed.  The emphasis is increasingly on community based care.  

In this regard we must join hands with our colleagues in the Health Department.

In this august Assembly late last year, horrifying figures in respect of HIV/AIDS were quoted.  Recent reports in the national media would imply that the situation is far worse than you or I can imagine.

If one, amongst other elements, takes into account:

	that HIV/AIDS is regarded as a Home-based disease, meaning that long term care will be in the hands of the families;

	furthermore, that this disease produces orphans and broken families in greater numbers than we have ever seen;

	that child-headed families are already a reality within our Province;

One realises that there is an awesome burden ahead of us.  For both these departments, and our economic life, this has very severe implications.

Our community focus and capacity building efforts need to be calculating this into all service rendering plans.  In circumstances such as these the care-givers become a new priority.  

My Department will be focusing much more stringently on all related aspects under our jurisdiction, in this regard, in this coming year.

The people involved in addressing this problem face to face are increasingly hampered by the rules of confidentiality and non-notifiability.  

These issues, which relate to the life and death, not only of individuals, but of our society as we know it, are being politicised for dubious benefit.

We need to de-mystify and de-stigmatise this disease if we are ever to save ourselves, our children and our society from tragic consequences.  Our Province again appears to be the worst affected.  To ignore this is, in effect, to commit mass suicide.

5.2	SOCIAL WORK SERVICES

Social work is eminently the profession equipped to deal with community development effectively.  

Community development is, however, an area of expertise encompassing Community Organisation, Community Development and Community Work.

These are not interchangeable concepts, but each a highly focused, complex and specialised field.  Those trained and skilled herein are consequently few.  

Furthermore, the majority of social workers are in the employ of the Government sector.

Adequately staffing the private sector is therefore a truly critical issue in respect of service rendering and will need serious attention in the near future.  

It is tragic that the one profession which has the ability to make such a significant difference, is so sparsely spread and enjoys so little credit for their efforts.

In a Department such as mine for example, the pensions and grants enjoy extremely high profile attention at all levels.  

The sterling developmental work done by the social work section, under enormous pressure, and working frequently long hours, goes virtually unnoticed.  

This is an indictment on the dependency orientated culture our society is developing.

Mr Chairman, each and every one of us needs to examine ourselves for even we have come to accept dependency as the norm.  

The social work service has extensive and awesome responsibility with a very restricted manpower pool.

Whilst a few social workers, (like magistrates and teachers), have been found to be involved in the corrupt activities we are now so familiar with, I would like to use this platform to give praise to those many social workers in both the Department and private sector, who give so very much to the promotion of the wellbeing and upliftment of our people often at great cost to themselves and their families.

Social work is an onerous, thankless and mostly unseen task without which our communities would be infinitely poorer.  

Amongst the many duties they perform, workshops have been organised and attended with agencies rendering services to the community.

With registered welfare agencies a consultative process to foster co-operation and liaison, and to identify areas of overlap and need has been embarked upon.  For example, social relief was extended in crisis.  

Where such relief funds were depleted in the Pietermaritzburg Region for example, welfare agencies offering material aid met and, together with Community Chest and the Rotarians, a food bank was established which operated until March 1997.

Due to the high incidence of children infected with HIV/AIDs in the Pietermaritzburg Region, discussions were initiated by my Department with all role-players.  This resulted in a project to develop alternative ways of caring for children who are affected by the incidence of the virus, that is child-headed families resulting from chronically ill or deceased parents.  

An example of one such solution would be cluster-foster parenting.  This is considered to be a first in the country.

Disasters are ever with us in one form or another.  The Christmas Day 1995 floods had a long term spill-over effect directly affecting social work services.  A number of social workers from the Pietermaritzburg area assisted with the initial counselling, as well as packing and distributing supplies for the victims.

Ensuing from this a number of our social workers attended a course in trauma counselling.  Thereafter additional counselling sessions for some of the severely traumatised victims was offered.  An action plan was drawn up for such future disasters.  
Consequently when the cold and snow last year was unexpectedly severe, all was in place and assistance could be given with almost immediate effect.

The Assessment, Referral and Diversion Programme for juvenile offenders has been successfully operating in Durban for some months now, with the Juvenile Justice Forum serving a similar purpose in Pietermaritzburg.  Social workers/probation officers serve on a rotation basis and are on call at all hours to attend to these youngsters as rapidly as possible.  

This will ensure maximum diversion of juveniles from the criminal justice system and into meaningful rehabilitative programmes.

5.3	RIGHTS OF CHILDREN

The current focus on the RIGHTS OF CHILDREN is long overdue in this country.  Many horrors relating to children are only now emerging into the light of day.  With our children being our greatest heritage, the ratification, at long last, of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child is welcomed.  This has, however, brought many added responsibilities.

5.4	SECURE CARE

On 8 May 1996 hundreds of children who were awaiting trial on criminal offences were released from Westville Prison and other prisons.

The amendments effected to Section 29 of the Correctional Services Act catapulted a large number of awaiting trial youths into our child care system.  

As a result the Inter-Ministerial committee on Young People at Risk was commissioned.

The unco-ordinated release of these children and their transfer to mainstream Places of Safety, led to a crisis in the welfare sector.  

Although these youngsters are innocent until proven guilty, let us never forget they ARE CHILDREN, they are our children in fact, though some are in fact guilty of the most shocking crimes.

My Ministry is committed to the recommendations of the Inter-Ministerial Committee on Young People at risk, for the reform of the juvenile justice system, for the approaches which emphasise the removal of young people from the criminal justice processes, together with their reintegration into their families and communities, and the establishment of specialised residential facilities for children involved in violent crime.

Whilst I was not always happy about the manner in which some aspects of this investigation were conducted, the overall result is helpful and insightful.

The proposals have been integrated into a broad plan for the transformation of the child and youth care system, including foster care, children's homes and preventative services for families and communities.

In order to do our duty to both child and society in the most humane yet effective manner, the internationally accepted concept of SECURE CARE FACILITIES has evolved on a National basis.

A Secure Care Facility is defined as a residential facility and programme of intervention which ensures the appropriate physical, behavioural and emotional containment of young people over the age of 14 years, within an environment, milieu and programme conducive to their care, safety and healthy development.

Mr Chairman, we are dealing with children from a shattered society and I cannot emphasise enough our rehabilitative and development responsibility towards them.  Establishing such a secure care facility is now a matter of some urgency.

The most cost effective and quickest manner of accommodating this situation has been to upgrade the existing Excelsior Place of Safety in Pinetown, utilising a section thereof for Secure Care, as well as a section of the School of Industries at Newcastle.

There has been much negative media focus and community resistance, particularly relating to Excelsior, but on consideration and after extensive liaison with all parties concerned, considering vested community interests, the interests of the youth in question, the CRITICAL financial aspects and the fact that time is of the absolute essence, this decision still equates out as the best possible alternative available.  

Many individuals close to Excelsior feel we have disregarded their interest.  No, we have not.

Their objections and fears have been heard.  Unfortunately the other alternatives mooted involve a multitude of millions of Rands which are simply not available and time consuming procedures which we can indulge in.

One such suggestion concerning the transfer of land involves exceedingly time consuming legal processes, without taking into account the viability or otherwise thereof.

On this account alone it is not currently feasible.  This remains a costly exercise.  The National Minister has promised us R4 000 000 in assistance.  Once this money is received the project will proceed.

5.5	STREET CHILDREN

Negotiations to establish suitable alternatives to these children involving the basics of self-help and rehabilitation are moving forward rapidly.  We believe that these children must actually be assisted to re-enter the community as full scale citizens.

Their emergence is as a direct result of a disturbed society, mainly due to the violence prevalent in our society ensuing from slogans and philosophies such as "Freedom first, Education later".

An interesting factor which has been emphasised during this investigation is the fact that this type of issue truly resorts with the appropriate private organisation, for example Child and Family Welfare.

5.5.1	STRATEGIC CHILD AND ADOLESCENT MAXIMISATION PROJECT (SCAMP)

I am deeply concerned about the ever increasing plight of children throughout the Province.  

It was deemed fitting that in National Constitution Week we should therefore focus on the future and for me this is synonymous with looking to our children and how to serve their best interests.

A number of truly laudable efforts to address, particularly the situation of street children, have sprung up in our cities.  

It is my assessment, however, that the problem is far larger than merely visible on the streets of the larger cities, with the roots lying in deep poverty and dismembered family life and structure.

In collaboration with the many interested and skilled parties in this field a serious effort will be made to initiate life survival training for "street children" and other youngsters in need of such a service.

The intention of this project is not to usurp the role of the many willing hearts and hands already addressing the symptoms, but to provide:

	Firstly, an umbrella unit where all involved can lock in;
	
	Secondly, a co-ordinating pivot for all related efforts;
			
	and most important of all, a venue from whence the root cause can be addressed.

Being mindful of the intentions of the project it gave me great pleasure to announce the launch of a provincial project to not simply remove the street children from the city streets, but to provide a survival training centre for all children and youth who find themselves outside the normal secure, accepted societal net.

My Department is making a limited amount of money available to set the project on its feet.  This money will have to be derived from savings effected within the constraints of an already overstretched budget.

The business community and the public, who will derive the most immediate benefit from this project, will therefore need to support this effort in any and every way possible.  
This is not intended to, nor should it ever, replace existing formal child care systems and facilities.

Until such time our economy provides adequately for all, we will have children trying to survive, and being exploited, on the dark fringes of society.  We can no longer simply accept this as a "fact of life".

The STRATEGIC CHILD AND ADOLESCENT MAXIMISATION PROJECT (SCAMP), is a determined and sincere effort to provide the drifter youth of KwaZulu-Natal with an enhanced chance to survive with greater dignity and safety, and to give them access to opportunities they could otherwise only have dreamed of.

5.6	FLAGSHIP PROGRAMME

The FLAGSHIP PROGRAMME is a very promising programme.  Its focus is the unemployed single mother with a major job creation/empowerment factor.

The National Government has allocated a few hundred thousand Rand to each province to kick-start the programme.  Progress in KwaZulu-Natal is steady.

The Business Plan is currently on the National table for consideration and once approved, the programme's two pilot projects can be formally launched.

It must, however, be emphasised that the National allocation is small and further funding to trigger the escalation of this very healthy concept will need to be found within the Province itself.

This programme emphasises empowerment and independence and should not become a further burden to the State, the involvement of the private sector thus again becomes crucial.


6.	GENERAL

6.1	AMALGAMATION

The extremely complex Amalgamation process has been completed, with the Department reconciling a new staff establishment (of some 2 658 posts) with the assistance of the work study officers.

6.2	RATIONALISATION

In its rationalisation programme, my Department and I have taken cognisance of the inequitable distribution of resources and facilities between the various regions and between the rural and urban areas in these regions.

There is real concern that in disadvantaged areas many people have to travel long distances to access services.  We have therefore begun a major exercise of identifying areas where service can be brought closer to communities.  The following are highlights of this endeavour:

-	At NONGOMA the previously inadequate and dilapidated office is to be replaced.  The site was handed over to contractors on 19 March 1997.

-	The sod-turning ceremony took place on 29 April 1997 at MELMOTH.  I must mention here and in fact thank His Majesty the King who performed this duty in the absence of the Premier.  That was on 29 April.  At Melmoth, (previously serviced from Richards Bay), we now render a visiting social work service.

-	An old school building has been allocated to the Department.  The determination of how this facility can be established as a service office is in progress at BABANANGO, (previously serviced from Richards Bay).  Services are rendered and a pre-fabricated structure is currently being built for use as a temporary service office.

-	At UTRECHT, (where no services were rendered), services are rendered from offices rented from the Local Authority.  A site has been acquired for the construction of permanent offices.

-	At ESTCOURT services exist but expansion is necessary and the necessary building plans have already been approved.

-	At PAULPIETERSBURG services are rendered from hired premises in order to bring services closer to the people.  I am thankful to my colleague Mr Miller's Department that allowed us to share part of their offices.

-	At ONGOYE the site was handed over to contractors on 17 March 1997 for the construction of new offices.

-	At UMBUMBULU a structure has been organised to take over services which were rendered through the Magistrate's office.

-	At INGWAVUMA a structure has been organised to take over services which were rendered through the Magistrate's offices.  Planning of a service office is complete and construction will commence in the current financial year.

-	At UBOMBO a structure has been organised to take over services which were rendered through the Magistrate's office.

-	NEW SERVICES have been established at Madadeni and KwaNgwanase.

By this I mean we have taken back services previously rendered by sister departments on an agency basis.

In a similar vein, effective services are in the process of being established at Underberg/Himeville, Bergville, Gingindlovu, Simdlangenthsa, Vulindlela and Louwsburg but are currently hindered by logistical problems.

In the case of the last instance, for example, access for a large portion of the community is severely restricted due to appalling roads.  Negotiations with the Department of Works are currently ongoing in order to resolve this.  Here again, I must thank the  Department of Roads, because we wanted to render a service at KwaBanagile which is part of Louwsburg but the road was just no good for us to travel there, so they have started on a new road.

Allocation of staff to head office, the three regions and a number of district offices is being addressed.  The process of rationalising welfare services is progressing well but some significant work still needs to be done before this is finalised.

7.	PRIORITIES FOR 1997

This new year has offered us most exciting challenges.  Besides the aforementioned the following elements have been identified as priorities:

-	the passing of the Bill for Social Welfare into legislation;

-	finalisation of Social Security restructuring encompassing the delivery mechanisms, parent and child maintenance with the vast implications of the Lund Committee's recommendations, and issues relating to disability grants;

-	human resources development;

-	optimisation of anti-poverty programmes in Government, and as previously mentioned, I have high hopes of the Flagship Programme in this regard;

-	women and children issues;

-	the five year Social Welfare Action Programme, (SWAP), and Financial Plan;

-	all specialist institutions, upgrade of service rendering possibly infrastructure and focus on community involvement;

-	positioning of welfare within the three strata of Government.  Nationally, Provincially and Locally;

-	finalisation of policies and strategies relating to Population Development;

-	a Communication Plan;

-	integration of various programmes relating to society, families, children, women and youth.

At National level the nine provinces have recently concluded a joint strategic planning session.  Ensuing from this, with the perspectives which emerged from these discussions, a Provincial strategic planning session will probably be held soon.

8.	CONCLUSION

Mr Chairman, finally, before analyzing the budget, it would be extremely remiss of me if I did not avail myself of this opportunity to express my deep appreciation to those many officials within my Department who have retained sound values and principles, and who manifest a healthy awareness of their basic service orientation.

In saying this, I reach out to each and every member of my staff from the cleaner, through to the admin ranks, to the various professionals, right up to the most senior ranks.  I honour them and I give them my thanks.  I pray that they will go from strength to strength and eventually prevail over all the other despicable elements.  I may not forget here the SAPS Task Team that is doing the investigation.  They are doing a very valuable job.

I also wish to express special appreciation towards the group of officials who are working on the enormous pension backlog.  They are filling in where other officials have actually refused to do a job, and catching up on work not done by yet others again.

Their efforts are truly honourable and I convey my personal appreciation to them and their families.  I pray that they will retain a high level of dedication and energy in the remembrance that every dusty old file they touch is actually the manifestation of a desperate human being who is totally dependent on their actions for his or her wellbeing.

I particularly thank my senior support staff and the Government Fraud and Corruption Investigation Task Team for their dedication, support and willingness to expose themselves to real danger in the name of decency and clean administration.  In this regard I want to mention the name of Superintendent, I do not know what they are called, it used to be Colonel Engelbrecht and his team.

I feel a great need, Mr Chairman, to avail myself of this opportunity to thank this House, and all its members, for their unstinting support and encouragement for our efforts to rid my Department of corruption and inefficiency.

I must further thank each and every member who in his or her constituency, attempts so valiantly to assist our clients with the most frustrating problems they encounter ensuing from our situation.  Yes, sir, it is taking time.  I wish also to thank the members of the community who are bringing in information even at night regarding the fraud.

And yes, it may yet be a while before all is resolved, but I have every reason to believe that we finally have sight of the end of a long and extremely dark tunnel.

I believe that this Department is addressing the rot at its core.  I believe that, given the willingness of our good staff and adequate funds, much can be done to benefit our community.  I believe that this Department has the ability to unlock great human potential in our Province and look forward to a year in which we, at last, see the fruit on much effort which has gone before.

9.	BUDGET

9.1	OVERVIEW

An amount of R3 353 698 000 to cover running expenditure plus a statutory amount of R345 000 has been voted for Social Welfare and is included in the printed estimates under vote 13 : Social Welfare.

The estimates are presented according to the six main programmes as follows:

ADMINISTRATION
R     15 411 000
SOCIAL SECURITY
R3 146 733 000
SOCIAL ASSISTANCE
R   111 070 000
SOCIAL WELFARE SERVICES
R     77 827 000
SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT
R       1 657 000
AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVICES
R       1 000 000
TOTAL:
R3 353 698 000


Social Security of course takes the lion's share of our budget.

In comparison with the amount voted for the 1996/97 financial year, this represents a gross increase of R262 315 000 or 8,48%.  Further details of the budget in terms of the various items of expenditure are as follows:

9.2	PROGRAMME 1:  ADMINISTRATIVE EXPENDITURE - R15 411 000

Provision is made under this programme for Ministerial support services, which include financial, provisioning and personnel administration as well as the provision of other support functions relating to labour relations, organisation and work study, communication, language and legal support services etcetera.

The increase of R2 884 000 is due to:

9.2.1	PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE

This item of expenditure has increased by an amount of R2 849 000 as a result of the carry through costs of the improvement of service conditions of public service employees which came into effect on 1 July 1996.

9.2.2	EQUIPMENT

The increase under this item amounts to R35 000 and provides for the purchase of Persal equipment.

9.2.3	OTHER

There is no change to the amounts allocated for other items of expenditure under the programme Administration as compared to the allocation for the 1996/97 financial year.

9.3	PROGRAMME 2  :  SOCIAL SECURITY - R3 146 733 000

This programme provides for the payment of pensions and grants to various categories of beneficiaries for child and parent grants, grants for the aged, grants for the disabled and social relief.  In addition, this programme includes funds to cover the costs of administering social security.

The increase in expenditure, that is R253 908 000 is due to the following reasons:



9.3.1	PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE - R4 930 000

The carry-through costs of improvement of service conditions of public service employees which came into effect on 1 July 1996.

9.3.2	EQUIPMENT - DECREASE OF R3 000 000

The allocation in respect of this item has been reduced as expenditure is non-recurring.

9.3.3	PROFESSIONAL AND SPECIAL SERVICES - R38 100 000

The expenditure under this item has been increased owing to provision being made for the computerisation of the pension payment system.

9.3.4	TRANSFER PAYMENTS - R213 878 000

The additional funds provide for the proposed increases of 7,5% in respect of social security benefits with effect from 1 July 1997, that is R470 per pensioner per month, which is peanuts of course, with effect from 1 July 1997.

9.4	PROGRAMME 3  :  SOCIAL ASSISTANCE - R111 070 000

Under this programme provision is made for the financing/subsidisation of private welfare programmes.  Provision is also made for the administration costs of the programme.  The funds available for the 1997/98 financial year will be lower than the amount voted for the 1996/97 financial year due to the fact that an amount of R293 million has been transferred to the Department of Health to cover the cost of running the Cheshire Mental Home which function has been taken over by that Department.  There is therefore a decrease of R293 million reflected under this programme.

9.5	PROGRAMME 4  :  SOCIAL WELFARE SERVICES - R77 827 000

This programme provides for the management and maintenance of State institutions that provide care to children, families, the aged, disabled, drug and alcohol dependants and offenders.  In addition, provision is made for the administration costs of social work services.

This increase of R5 816 000 is due to the following:

9.5.1	PERSONNEL EXPENDITURE - R6 116 000

Additional expenditure will be incurred as a result of the carry-through costs of the improvement of service conditions of public service employees which came into effect on 1 July 1996.

9.5.2	EQUIPMENT - DECREASE OF R195 000

The funds allocated under this item have been reduced owing to non-recurring expenditure.

9.5.3	TRANSFER PAYMENTS - DECREASE OF R105 000

The allocation under this item has been reduced as it is expected that the payment of pocket money, will be discontinued.  We feed these people and the pupils and there is no need for pocket money we feel.


9.6	PROGRAMME 5  :  SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT - R1 657 000

This programme provides only for the administration of population development.  There is no change to the allocation as compared with the 1996/97 financial year.

9.7	PROGRAMME 6:  AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVES -  R1 000 000

Under this programme provision is made for the purchase of new vehicles for the administration of social security, performing social work services and the rendering of general management and administrative auxiliary services.  There is no change to the allocation as compared to the 1996/1997 financial year.

Mr Chairman, members of this hon House.  It is requested that the amount of R3 353 698 000 be approved for the Department of Social Welfare.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon Minister.  I now call on the hon member Mr M V Ngema.  He has 15 minutes.

MR M V NGEMA:  I thank you very much, Mr Chairperson and hon members.  Unless the economy of this country takes a dramatic turn, the question of poverty and long effects of AIDS infection, and other society needs are going to pose a serious problem for welfare services in the foreseeable future.

I am very happy indeed to stand before you this morning and debate this very important vote.  I congratulate the Minister for such a detailed account to this House, in spite of whether he is here or not.  Thus indeed accounting to the public of KwaZulu-Natal.

It has been an extreme honour for me to work with the members of the Portfolio Committee, the majority of whom are going to be making their contributions in this debate.  I want to place on record that it is a great honour to serve with people who have respect for themselves, and respect the other people they deal with.

I have stated in this House before, that the human quality the members of this particular Portfolio Committee represent, regardless of their political shades is of a high quality, I thank them.

We have had nine meetings as a Portfolio Committee.  Various issues ranging from amalgamation of former departments, staff establishment, problems relating to the payment of pensions, whether by cash or by the Cash Paymaster System have been discussed.  The budget has been on our agenda as we were instructed by this House to both monitor and participate in the development thereof.

There is a need to strike a fair balance between successfully investigating fraud, which all of us appreciate in this House on the one hand, and having innocent pensioners suffering as a result of their pensions being suspended pending the outcome of such investigation.

It is my view, that we do need to look into ways and means of bringing into play fairness.  Particularly, when the investigation is initiated you find that there is no conclusive evidence as to where the outcome will lead.  Therefore there will be some among those whose pensions have been suspended who will suffer, when in fact such investigations are a result of administrative errors.  I am pleading for a thorough look into this because it may pose problems for us when we pursue a noble goal.

We are happy that in this regard our Provincial Government is leading the way, that is in the investigation of fraud and corruption.  We are leading the way in the entire country.  On Tuesday, the 13th, last week, Mr Dlamini and I listened to a representative from Mpumalanga Province in the debate of the vote on Social Welfare in the NCOP.  She stated that they were apparently prosecuting members of the civil service who had been involved in fraud.  My comment to that, when I spoke, was that we congratulate them for that success, but we in KwaZulu-Natal were ahead because people were already serving sentences.

Mr Chairman, in debating this budget, we are dealing with a situation where the budget only helps us to move and keep things as they are, where we are lucky, but indeed the lack of funding will eventually lead to the diminishing of services.  We will find it very difficult to keep up with the problems inherent in the provision of welfare services.

Emphasis on development in dealing with social welfare and population development is applauded.  I hope that this move in the right direction will cater for the motion tabled by the hon member Mr Ngidi, this morning.  It is quite clear that the vigorous development of programmes that empower youth will prove useful in the long run when the youth grows old and weak and when they need State assistance.  Because of their economic standing at that time, the State will find that it will save huge amounts of money, because the numbers of people who will be depending entirely on State funding will decrease.

The Minister referred to the recommendations of the Lund Committee.  In this respect I wish to comment as follows.  The report has many positive aspects, such as the fact that it brings black children into the welfare system.  In this case it has not existed at all or has been to a limited level.

The missing link, however, in this report it does not tell us what happens to a child once this proposed grant of R70 per month stops.  The assumption is that there is a programme that will take over, but this programme has not been identified.  It would be better to identify it so that we are not landed with a dilemma when these recommendations are implemented.

Thirdly, taking into account the realities of our Province in terms of the levels of poverty, the amount of R70 per month per child does not seem to be realistic.  We know there is a problem with funding generally, as I have commented, and therefore we do understand that it is a matter of half a loaf being better than nothing.

The Minister referred to the building of district offices.  We appreciate the fact that this programme is proceeding, because the nett effect of the provision of these facilities, is that it brings services closer to the people bearing in mind the kind of people we are dealing with in this Ministry.  We therefore feel that this movement is an encouraging development.

Computer delays are still a problem, as the Minister referred to in his speech.  We hope that this will be resolved sooner than later, as people receiving this service suffer when there are such delays.  We would also urge that in looking at the 30 000 cases of backlogs, to which the Minister referred, we also ensure that the system does not allow for a further accumulation of new backlogs, which will result when we focus on the cases that the Minister referred to.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes remaining.

MR M V NGEMA:  Mr Chairman, hon members, there is a need to research on the urgent possibility of reviving the family unit as a base for our social security system.  I suggest that the possibility of an investigation be looked into by the Ministry and the Portfolio Committee, involving the best sociologists, to determine the value of the indigenous ways of protecting the aged members of our society.  I believe that in investigating this we will have a lot to depend on in facing the dilemma before us.

In closing, Mr Chairperson, again I wish to extend my appreciation to the members of the Portfolio Committee, the hon Minister for his co-operation, Mr Mhlongo and the officials as well as the Portfolio Committee Secretariat and the many delegations who appeared before the Portfolio Committee with various problems.

The number that the Minister referred to for the community to receive assistance in case of problems is often given by the media, particularly on the radio is as follows:  0800313233.  I suggest that they should make it easier for the public to assimilate this number by calling it as follows.  0800 31 32 33.  That would be user-friendly.  I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon member Mr Ngema.  I now call on the hon member Mr N V E Ngidi, to address the Committee for 12 minutes.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  For any programme of social welfare to be successful, it must begin to address the basic needs of the object of that programme.  We live in a period where poverty is rampant.  Where there are sections of our people who completely rely on social welfare to get by.  In that case it should be seen as a tool of delivery, of a better life to our people.  In the time allotted to me I would like to examine whether we are delivering on this front or not, and if we are not, what should we do to ensure delivery.

My point of focus will be old aged pensions and youth development programmes.  I believe that these are areas where social welfare delivery will have a great impact on the lives of our people.  The old age pensions are important because they sustain life.  They contribute into making the recipients thereof feel needed and welcome in society, at a time where some of them have feelings to the contrary.  Whereas youth development programmes are an important mechanism of human resource development, thereby ensuring the economic development of our country.

Because of the economic realities of our country, where few job opportunities exist, there is a large percentage of our people that are unemployed.  Some work in low-wage categories and it is impossible for them to save for retirement.  Those who are fortunate enough to prepare for retirement, such preparations are either inadequate or "completely lacking".  The result of this is that our elderly people are vulnerable and "in need of social support".  Not only that, but some of them are forced to use such, to further support their families.  Examples abound, particularly within African communities, where families live off the pension of the granny of the family.  Should that granny pass on those families are left without means of support or subsistence.

I take note of what the Minister has said about the need to fight dependency, but this should be taken against the backdrop of the declining economic situation of our communities.

What this means is that we should pay particular attention to problems that afflict the area of old age pensions.  It is distressing to note that the myriad of problems that face our aged in the process of seeking social relief.  At times the treatment meted to them by clerks and other public servants, make you wish never to grow old.  Let alone the incidents of bribery that is rampant at pay points.  The law seems paralysed to deal with this and come to the aid of defenceless aged.  What is worse, you listen in vain for adequate governmental plans to deal with the problem.

I could produce a long list of problems that our elderly face but I will only restrict myself to a few.

-	There are many old age pensioners who have their pensions mysteriously cut off and, try as they might, explanations are hard to come by.  Some of them are declared dead whilst living.  I am aware of people who have been affected in this way for something like three or more years now.  When payment resumes another battle starts, of getting the full amount owing to them.  I am aware that the Minister has attempted to address this problem through the media, but instead of abating it is worsening.  This is a problem that needs more than the attention of the Department.  This Legislature must work out mechanisms to attend to it.  It is becoming a national disaster.

-	We noted that a great number of our people rely on social support.  It is distressing therefore to learn of a situation where an applicant has to wait for ages before he or she receives an answer.  In the intervening period the applicant is without any means of support.  Whilst one appreciates the need to carefully scrutinize each application, it is, however, still possible to expedite the process and not to prolong the agony of those who live off pensions.

-	Spouses of pensioners who die are left in an uncertain situation.  It is not clear whether they are eligible for any kind of benefits.  What is not clear is when should a pensioner have died in order for his or her monthly allocation to be paid out.  We need to have this straightened out, and the legal situation clarified.

-	Support facilities such as pay-out offices need to be made accessible to pensioners.  Pay-out offices are meant to protect pensioners from the elements when waiting and receiving their pensions.  It is a cause for concern that these seem to be built only north of the Tugela River.  The south needs attention as well.

-	Doctors who are dealing with pensioners must be closely monitored.  Some doctors are ill-treating pensioners.  There have also been complaints of racism from some doctors.  Some are in areas which are difficult to be reached by the elderly, particularly those who are ill.

-	Attention should be paid to those cases who, because of their health and physical condition, it is difficult for them to reach pay points.  Mechanisms should be worked out to ameliorate their conditions.

Age must not be turned into a curse.  It is important therefore that the elderly people should enjoy their golden years in as much physical and spiritual comfort as possible.  Therefore counselling of the aged cannot be sacrificed.  It is a cause for concern that the situation of social workers is what it is at the present moment.  Their working conditions and resources need to be looked into and much needs to go into improving them.

The White Paper on Social Welfare gives consideration to a "strategy for social security for elderly people".  It is important that we uplift our senior citizens from "the doldrums of a life of dependency, and put them in a place where they can live in dignity".  Besides, it is important that they feel that they are still needed by society.  Programmes to make them economically productive within the confines of their age should be worked out.  I would be interested to hear the comments of the Minister in this regard.

Mr Chairman, it has often been said that a nation that neglects its youth does not deserve its future.  The only way of successfully investing in the future of our Province, is to put in place a proactive youth development programme.  It must be a programme that "uplifts our young from the ravages of the life of poverty".  It must be a programme that instills in them a sense of dignity and gives them hope in the future.  The youth need to be engaged in "meaningful ventures in order for them to learn that they have a duty to make a positive input to society".
The programme must also address "social instability that has resulted in high teenage parenthood, delinquency, crime and exposure to sexually transmitted diseases and violence".

This Government needs to work out a comprehensive youth policy that meets the needs of our young people.  It must provide "services and development programmes aimed at the youth with special needs".  Preventative measures must be made available "while providing access to appropriate services for young people at risk".  We need to co-operate with governmental and non-governmental organisations "in community based development initiatives to promote the meeting of the needs of the youth".

Categories of youth with special needs will have to be identified, for whom programmes will have to be developed by this Government, in conjunction and consultation with all stakeholders.  The White Paper on social welfare identifies these categories as follows:

(a)	youth with disabilities;
(b)	youth involved in substance abuse;
(c)	juvenile offenders;
(d)	homosexual and lesbian youth;
(e)	young victims and survivors of violence and crime;
(f)	young people who are HIV positive or have AIDS;
(g)	youth in dysfunctional families;
(h)	young women;
(i)	homeless young adults and those surviving in the streets;
(j)	out of school unemployed youth;
(k)	pregnant or teenage mothers;
(l)	life skills programmes, marriage and family preparation, and leadership development;  and
(m)	reclaiming young people from gangs and from different forms of militarisation.

Social welfare is an area of delivery that can have an immediate impact on the lives of our people.  What must be noted is that the majority of those who will be targeted by its programmes are blacks.  This means that social welfare can become a dynamic tool to redress the inequalities of the past, thereby transforming our society.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two more minutes.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  However, our budget, though finding favour with me, is inadequate in some respects, particularly in the area of youth development.  I hope that in the forthcoming year the Portfolio Committee on Social Welfare and Population Development, will begin to influence the work in this area.  I thank you, Mr Chairperson.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you for helping with the time, hon member Mr Ngidi.  I now call on the hon member Mr S V Naicker to address the committee for eight minutes.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Chairman, at the very outset I want to compliment the hon Minister for his well documented report in this budget debate.  I have mentioned this previously and perhaps as a cautious reminder to this House, and to the administration, and to the country as a whole, that even if a Ministry has 10 000 employees, in the final analysis the Minister stands alone.  In this instance, the hon Minister stands alone in this House to defend all that has transpired within the administration, a very, very important administration.

One of the interesting characteristics of his report has been the possible breakthrough with regards to fraud and corruption.  The hon Minister has been honest enough to state that at a particular juncture, he finds himself helpless where an individual from within the Department, is still serving the Department, whilst that particular official was responsible for something that was totally undisciplined.

Having said that, I want to compliment the hon Chairman of the Welfare Portfolio Committee.  I think that Portfolio Committee is fortunate to have a person of the calibre of the hon Mr Ngema.  I want to thank him for the work.

The hon Mr Ngema did speak about the Lund Committee report, and the R70 one-off, and what happens thereafter, which was also followed by other speakers.  These are practical areas which have to be looked at.

I want to compliment the last speaker, Mr Ngidi.  He has made some very, very important and pertinent contributions with regard to Welfare as a whole on a practical basis.  One of the things he mentioned was the curse of becoming old.  Nature will not allow us to reverse that situation.  We have to get old.  The important thing is how does the young protect the old.  He equally mentioned the importance of youth development.  If we are capable of orientating the youth towards youth and responsible development, they will equally protect the aged.  I must say the hon Mr Ngidi has made a very good contribution.

ANTI-POVERTY
THE SCOPE OF POVERTY IN SOUTH AFRICA

Going further, the scope of poverty in South Africa: 
	More than 30% of the South African population live in poverty.  
	Most of the poor live in rural areas.  
	About 50% of the poor are from female-headed households.  45% of the poor are children under the age of 16 years.  
	A large proportion of the poor are unemployed.

According to statistics of October 1995, the distribution of poverty in the provinces are as follows:

Northern Province		-	18%
Mpumalanga			-	  9%
Gauteng				-	  6%
KwaZulu-Natal			-	21%
Eastern Cape			-	24%
Western Cape			-	  4%
Northern Cape			-	  1%
Free State			-	  9%
North West			-	  9%

A community does not exist in isolation.  It must be studied and understood in terms of its external and internal environment.  This means that the community leader and the community development worker must be able to distinguish and understand the factors influencing the way things happen and the reason why people act the way they do.

INTERNATIONAL AND NATIONAL POLICY AND FINANCE.  

Improved technology and communication systems make it possible for people, information and money to travel or to be transferred between cities and countries very quickly.  This process has brought the countries of the world very close to each other, a process according to which the world has become a "global village".  The consequences is that international politics, trade and finance influences indirectly the lives of people.

If one thinks of community development as a people centred approach, a development policy is needed that will support such an approach.  At the National level, such a policy will have to meet the following objectives:

-	be human-centred in that it will support and promote human development
-	empower communities to take the responsibility for and have access to the means with which to bring about a sustained community self-development
-	encourage sustainable development that will ensure the use and preservation of natural resources to the benefit of present and future generations
-	be obtainable within the limited (financial) resources available in the country
-	build on and expand the existing infrastructure

Remember: 
The existence of shacks in squatter settlements may be a sign of poverty, but it is also a sign of people's ability to care for themselves, and make a plan under difficult circumstances.  Some people may have other needs apart from a strong house.  They live in the shack to start with so that they can save money to address these other needs.  It is at this juncture, I must remind the hon Ministry that it is absolutely imperative for Ministries to work together.

Water, Drainage and Sewage.  
This is a problem that poses serious health problems.  Lack of safe drinking water is one of the clearest signs of poverty, which I had mentioned in the Public Works debate. 

The importance of drinking water.  With no proper sewage system disease can flourish, which will lead to prolonged and repeated illnesses and physical weakness.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes.

MR S V NAICKER:  Remember:  Traditional healers are found in most settlements and can play an important role in the improving of hygiene and combating poor health.

Inadequate Educational Facilities.  
In almost all third world communities there is a shortage of educational facilities.  It deprives children of opportunities to equip themselves for a normal and productive adult life.  They are therefore not competent to deal properly with the challenges of life.

Psychologists from Different Communities to Address Problems from a Cultural Perspective.  
The Department of Social Welfare and Population Development together with the Education Division should advocate for the production of as many psychologists as possible by our tertiary institutions.  This plea was even made during the last debate.  Could the Minister advise us of any progress in this direction?

Restorative Justice.  
I would like to refer to my comments last year with regards to juvenile offenders that there should be more places of safety to be built to address the problems of juvenile delinquency.  Central to this submission, I believe that a section of the Westville Prison, be converted to secure a care centre for juvenile offenders.

In accordance with the National policy, one of the main elements in the restorative justice approach, is the idea that young people who are responsible for minor offences, should be diverted out of the criminal justice system.  This approach is indeed commendable, for this approach, the rights of the young person shall be protected and all programmes should be on the basis of being the least restrictive and most empowering.  We note that at National level, an amount of R33 million has been set aside from RDP funds through the National Crime Prevention Strategy, for the building or upgrading of secure care facilities.

We also note with satisfaction that in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, the Excelsior Place of Safety, has been identified as a secure care facility, and that plans have been finalised and the Department of Works is to commence work shortly.  An amount of R4 million would be made available.  Could the Minister advise us on this progress?

The Province which has 25% of the countries population, and the National budget reflects a R262,315 million increase, that is 8,4%.  This provides for increases in social security grants, increases in salary improvements and administration.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MR S V NAICKER:  The policies as outlined in the White Paper cannot be implemented effectively without adequate funding.  Such social services and social security pensions should be revisited and I want to wish the hon Minister every success and let us hope to find extra funding to care for this important administration.  Thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, the hon member.  I now call on the hon member Mr F T Dingila for eight minutes please.

MR F T DINGILA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Sir, I would like to start my debate by quoting from the hon Minister's speech on page 5, the fourth paragraph where he said:

	I personally want it clearly understood that I shall not rest until this Department is clear of all such rotten elements.  I am particularly distressed by the revelation that many individuals one would regard as utterly trustworthy are turning out to be totally unworthy of the positions they hold.  I believe we are still in for some shattering shocks in this regard.

And lastly, he said:

	I seriously suggest that the remaining contaminated few pack their bags and leave with the utmost dispatch.

To me those are great words.  Identical to the words spoken last night by our President at the funeral of one of the councillors.  The President said: [The President said we know the killers, but they are together with rogues].

To me those also were great words from a statesman but should he have said: [you know the killers].

I could have viewed it on the other spheres.  I think as the State President to say he knows the murderers, it shows that there is a great cry for the whole country, that police are really not doing their job correctly.  It is obvious that it has been the cry for so long.  People need help.  The police must stand up and perform their functions correctly.

Our hon Minister also mentioned the 1995 floods.  I am a little bit concerned about the flood victims who have never been attended to.  Unfortunately there was a horrible perception that these people were planted there for 1996 Local Government elections.

[Sadly, Mr Chairman, there are those from the Department who go and give evidence or testify and say these victims were never there].

Whether I want to believe they had other ulterior motives which led them to such comment,.  [Because we know].   Until now they have been staying in Verulam.  They have had absolutely no attention.  We feel that the Department of Welfare and Pensions, as correctly mentioned by the Minister, could have at least taken the initiative in such cases, because some of the people do not report such incidents to the right people.  I can assure this House that that was not the main purpose for those people.  They were really flood victims.  Up to this present moment they still stay in a hall in Verulam.

The Minister also talked about the problems that his Department encountered in trying to rehabilitate children.  Mageba, it is not only children that needs rehabilitation, there are also others that need to be rehabilitated and developed.

The parents of such children should also be attended to, as you have correctly said as well.  They need rehabilitation morally, spiritually and even physically.  The crime rate is so high not because of the notorious youth only but also because of the adults as well.  However, your tireless efforts, Mr Minister, to address these issues are highly appreciated.


I thank you, Mr Chairman.

TRANSLATION:  We can see that you are doing this not because you are the Minister of the Department, but, Mageba, you do it because you are the father of orphans.  You are the supporter of the disabled, you are a husband to the widows.

If this Department was not headed by you, in whose veins runs the blood of leadership of KwaZulu by birth, Mageba, perhaps the orphans would not be eating anything.  As far as the disabled are concerned, it was said because there is corruption in the Department, it must be closed and henceforth they would have nothing to eat.

But because you, Mageba, have compassion and the knowledge that it is your children who will not be eating anything, you have continued feeding them and making a great effort to eradicate the corruption and dishonesty that is taking place.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member Mr Dingila.  I now call on the hon member Mr R M Burrows for six minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Chair.  I wish to compliment the hon the Minister on a very comprehensive budget address and report.  I thank him also for the fact that he made a copy of the report available to members of the Committee early last week.

The major area I want to address this morning is the question of backlogs.  The hon Minister in his address said that the original pensions backlog, initially totalling in excess of 30 000 files has received priority attention and has been reduced significantly.

In response to an answer to a question that I posed to the Department, and I received the reply.  The information I have is dated 18 April this year, the figures look something like this.

Files from the pre- 1 March 1996 period that have been handled and require Treasury approval, and as far as I am aware have been submitted to Treasury, although nobody is quite sure about this, totals 14 800 files.  There is a backlog still remaining of the pre- 1 March 1996 period, that is the old pension dispensation, of around about 13 000 files still requiring to be handled.  Then there looks to be a backlog of the post 1 March 1996 period of around about 37 000 files.  Those 37 000 files, quite considerable numbers are not and do not have financial implications, but still have to be handled.

The point I am simply making, Mr Minister, is when you talk about 30 000 files having been significantly reduced.  Yes, perfectly true but what has happened is another backlog has now developed, that has to be eliminated.

I grant it that your staff are very severely stretched.  They are working overtime, they have inadequate equipment and computer software, but that is in the process of being corrected.  It is an area that I would urge you, sir, to make special application to eliminate as soon as possible, even if you have to go to your colleagues in Cabinet, and say a special project has to take place to eliminate these backlog files and applications.  These have tremendous financial implications.  Let me give you an example.  I hope you will be able to answer this when you reply to this debate.

I am told that the monies required to meet the previous financial year's payments total over R200 million.  These cannot come out of your budget, because you have made no provision for it, and yet have to be paid from the Province.  I do not know where the money is coming from, I am not certain the Finance Portfolio Committee knows where the money is coming from.

MR A RAJBANSI:  It is coming from the casinos.

MR R M BURROWS:  Oh.  Mr Rajbansi says they are coming from the casino taxes, but anyway.  I am simply wanting to know as to where and how financial provision is being made for the payment of the backlog payments that have to be made.

In this connection, once again you replied in answer to a question, that legal action had been taken against your Department, by people who are waiting to have their applications handled.  No doubt that has speeded the process up.  We hope that we can eliminate this as rapidly as possible.  Certainly by this time next year there should be no backlog.  I think the Portfolio Committee on Welfare needs at each meeting to ask itself, and of the Department the question, "What is the backlog now?  What has been eliminated?  Where has the money come from and who has paid it?"

The second area I would like to touch on is the question of the cutback of welfare organisations.  This is an area that I touched on during the meeting of the Finance Committee with yourself and your Department, sir.  The facts are as follows.

SANCA Durban which is a society on Alcohol and Drug Centred Dependency, has had a 38% cut in its financial provision for this year.  I have the facts.  We can provide them to the Department.  I know Dr Becker has already had them.

This means that this society requires an additional R57 000 per month from the private sector, I understand, in terms of fund raising, in order simply to keep pace with where it is now.  One of the key areas that this body does is outreach work to scholars in terms of alcohol and drug dependency, chemical dependency.  Without this money that programme will come to an end.  Really we need to review the amount of money being paid to the welfare organisations.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one more minute.

MR R M BURROWS:  I will give you a second example, in terms of the under-provision of welfare organisations, and I am not sure how we can get out of it.  The subsidy the Education Department provides to specialised schools, for example for the mentally handicapped has been cut.  The provision of money to welfare societies has been cut.

I have an appeal of a welfare society in southern KwaZulu-Natal which says, "We have a child under our supervision.  She receives a grant of so much a month", very little.  Her father receives a disability grant of R430 per month, it is going up to R470.  She is at a school for the mentally handicapped.  The school fees of that school are going to have to be increased by over 100%.  There is no money to fund the school, there is no money to fund the school fees, because the State has withdrawn funds both educationally and in the welfare sector.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MR R M BURROWS:  It is these kind of detailed problems that we ask the Minister also to address.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member Mr Burrows.  I now call on the hon member Miss M Xulu to address the committee for nine minutes.

MISS M XULU:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson and the hon members of the House.  Firstly, I would like to compliment the hon Minister, the Prince of KwaZiphethe for his good report he presented to us.

Again I want to congratulate him for the big work he has done.  I think he has achieved some of it by working day and night with the task team, which was investigating the scandal of our people who are just taking money form the poorest of the poor.

, I think I also sometimes feel mentally [or a little bit mad] because of the situation I am in at ~Umlazi~.  Anyway, this does not go to the Minister of Social Welfare.  It is a report just to tell this House that since Sunday last week some people have been living on the streets at ~Umlazi~, at H-Section, because of the violence, which I reported in this House.  So that is why I say sometimes I will become ~uhlanya~.

Coming back, ~Sihlalo~, to the work of the House.  We know that this Department of Social Welfare and Pensions has got a big problem.


TRANSLATION:  I also think, Mr Chairman, it is one which has huge problems because of dishonesty and corruption that is rife in it.  There are rogues that are employed that say there is a pot in the Department that is dripping with the fat of the people that are disabled, sick, and old.

This is something that is very bad indeed.  In spite of this, Mr Chairman, I say we must be grateful and thankful to the Prince of Ziphethe, as I have already said, because of this difficult work that he has done.  We especially thank those that were working, who committed themselves fully and eventually gave up their very lives.

We know that it is difficult because crime is something that is everywhere and that all departments are complaining about.  Here in the Department of Pensions I think it is worse.  We are grateful that God gave this Department to the Prince of Ziphethe who, in spite of all these difficulties, is running the Department as it should be run.

He arrests the criminals but others say the big fish have not yet been caught, it is just the small fish that have been caught.  We want to say, Your Excellency, we are grateful also for your wisdom in building offices, these offices that you are building in the rural areas.  I want to say, Mageba, I would wish that even in Mahlabathini there would already have been an office.

Our people who are the poorest of the poor, also need to get work.  Here is an important point, Your Excellency.  I also complained about this in our Department that is run by the hon Minister Miller.  I have the same complaint about the Department of Pensions.  As there have been changes it is said that the files were taken to Durban, because our region is in Durban.

What is very sad is that we are told that there is no person who is specifically tasked with the files, Mageba, from ~Umlazi~ and perhaps KwaMashu.  No, not Mahlabathini, but what I am asking for, Your Excellency, and those that are running the Department, I ask them to look carefully at this issue.  Perhaps it can be checked in order to see whether what is said is the truth or perhaps if it is not the truth.

If it is the truth, a person must be tasked with working specifically and directly with the work emanating from the people from ~Umlazi~ and KwaMashu, if KwaMashu also has the same problem.  As the hon Minister has already said, there are problems with the pensions, and that is the truth.

Even there on the South Coast the situation is very bad, but what is good, and what we are grateful for, our Committee works together.  Our Committee looks at the problem of the poor people in the same way.  In other words, when I have got the details of the problems from the South Coast together, I will bring those details to the Committee on Pensions.  Perhaps we will face this problem because it is too big.  I asked them to make me a list.  Chairman, we need to add our sympathy to the families of those who lost their lives as a result of crime of wanting to take the money of the disabled.  Indeed our sympathy is with the families.  We want to say that we express our sympathy to them, and we express our condolences to them.

To those that became disabled through being shot at their places of employment, also because people wanted money which belongs to the old people, and to the disabled, to those people who are employed or were employed, I want to also express my sympathy to them at this time.

At this time when we say that the Government is ours, when we say that this is a Government of our will which we have chosen, then there are these rogues at this time who say that they want everything to be theirs by force.

Lastly, Chairman, hon members of this hon House, I support the budget which was presented by the hon Minister.  I say, "Forward, Mageba".  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon member Miss Xulu.  I now call on the hon member Miss F M Nahara to address the Committee for 12 minutes.

MISS F M NAHARA: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I would like to congratulate the Minister for his report and particularly also for addressing the problems in the rural areas by placing social workers in the rural areas particularly in the Ingwavuma, KwaNgwanase and Ubombo areas.

This does show that there is a concern that the Department is doing everything to address the problems.  The social workers are quite helpful in these areas, and in the rural areas to help our people with the problems they have.  There are still problems in the rural areas when people apply for disability grants for the handicapped and mentally retarded children.  There is a serious problem in this area, because when people apply for these grants for such children, they are normally told that these children are okay, what is wrong with the child, , [try and do something about it].

I followed this problem up as to why these people get such negative answers from the people who handle these cases.  I discovered that one of the problems that existed in these areas, particularly in the rural areas was that they have no psychologist to help the social workers in assessing the child, whether the child is actually mentally retarded or what is wrong with the child.

You will find that in most cases in rural areas, there are no such facilities for assessing the children.  This results in some of these children not attending school.  They are actually at home, because they cannot cope with the school work.  At school they are normally told that this child is stupid, [it does not learn, it does not do anything, it is just a thing]. So the teacher cannot waste time in taking care of these children, bearing in mind that in our schools our classrooms are still packed.

You have a teacher, and that teacher has 40 to 50 children.  She cannot pay attention to one child.  The child will spend two/three years in the same class.  The child does not make any progress.  At the end of the day the child is told to stay at home because she or he is wasting the time of the teacher.  The mother will run around trying to get some help for this child.  She gets a very negative answer from the offices where she turns for help.

It is a problem.  It also makes one believe that ~apartheid~ has not gone.  There is still racism.  If you look at the institutions of the former NPA, they have these facilities to assess the children, there are psychologists but in the rural areas this is the third year we are in Government, there is none.

I would appeal to the Minister to actually look into this matter as a matter of urgency.  There are quite a number of children.  You have children who are now almost at the age of 12, they cannot get help.  They are in the rural areas and the mother does not know what to do with the child.

We need to look at the attitudes of the people who are working in these offices, because their attitudes have not changed.  It is very painful if you go and apply for a grant and you are told [this child is too old, go and marry it off.  What do you expect us to do with it?]  It is not nice for a parent, whether it is a joke, that joke is uncalled for.  This woman needs help, the parent needs help and such answers there are so many.  There are many answers that I could quote here.  So it becomes an urgency that we look into the attitudes of these people.  I do not think we really need them in our Government.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MISS F M NAHARA: (Whip):  One other problem that I am not sure of, maybe the Minister will clarify this one.  I wonder how many homes do we have for mentally retarded children in this Province?  Are they State run?  When I look at the report of the Minister I can see that assistance is being given to private homes, but do we have Government homes because the processes for these institutions really are a problem for our people.  Bearing in mind that most of our people are not educated and when the person is told to run around, [going to a doctor, going to kwaMuhle, and all over the place], she ends up giving up and not going for help.  It is a problem in our society, particularly the black community.

The question, as I say, is how many such institutions do we have that are Government run?  Maybe if we do have some it will help a great deal.  Some of these institutions are quite expensive.  I think Mr Burrows had just mentioned one whereby the fees and everything are high.  Our people do not have such monies.  I believe that if we have some Government institutions of this nature it will help, particularly our people in the rural areas.

Mr Chairperson, I do not have a lot to say except that I do congratulate the Minister for the budget speech he has given us.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much for saving time, hon member.  I now call on the hon member Mr S E R Khoza for eight minutes please.

MR S E R KHOZA:  Mr Chairman, I hope I will also follow suit and save time.  I wish to congratulate the Minister for the comprehensive presentation of his budget speech.

Social Welfare is a sensitive Department, as it deals with the people who cannot cater for themselves, that is children, the aged and the disabled.  It is the Department closest to the poorest of the poor.

Besides the Ministry having to work out correct and efficient systems of distributing grants to the needy, it is faced with a mammoth task of security of the most wanted commodity, that is the money they are handling.

The Ministry has, besides distributing the money to the correct recipients, to apply stringent security measures during distribution.

Money is stolen in transit to pay points which makes the Ministry responsible, and has now to concentrate on the safety of it.  Much time and manpower is needed thus disturbing the Ministry's budget, as no budget was allocated for this stolen money.

I must congratulate the Minister for the stand he has taken against fraud, theft and corruption.  It is indeed very difficult to detect thieving within a department, as the thieves have more access to the functioning processes and can perform their acts more secretly.

It is an undisputable fact that the some civil servants form syndicates of thieves who prey on the poor people's grants.  Their systems of stealing are watertight, as in many cases senior officials are part of the syndicate.

Coming to the applications for disability grants.  There is a very dirty practice being practised in some area offices.

1.	If the disabled does not have R50,00 he is not issued with an application form.  I know of a place but I will not mention it here.  I will secretly mention it to the Minister because it might leak out and then they will know that they are going to be traced.
2.	If the disabled has paid R50,00, he is issued with a form with a secret mark, for the district surgeon to pass him fit for the disability grant.  No matter what his condition is.  He may be very healthy but if that application has that secret mark on it he will get the grant.
3.	When the applicant receives his or her grant, which comes say after three months, she or he will not be given the full amount but will receive one month pay irrespective of how much the full amount was.  Where the other money goes to we do not know, but I am sure it lines the pockets of the authorities or the civil servants employed.

Mr Chairman, I am aware it is not an easy task for the Ministry to detect such doings, more so because in many cases the applicants themselves refuse to witness, for fear of reprisal.  Nevertheless, the Ministry could employ some methods of trapping and apprehending these wolves who fatten themselves with poor people's grants and pensions.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I support the Minister's budget.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member Mr Khoza, for keeping your promise.  I now call on the hon member Mr A Rajbansi to address the Committee for four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I also want to congratulate the hon Minister, the Secretary and the officials of his Department for a job well done.

You know, we had negative headlines in the media about the Government administration corruption, theft etcetera but what we like to read is the effort that has been made by the various Ministers in catching out those culprits.  I think in respect of the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions, we want to say congratulations to the Minister for taking effective remedial action.

We know that there are financial problems.  We know that with the amalgamation of the various departments we have staff problems, we have problems with our computers etcetera.  I want to make a plea to the hon Minister, to let members of Parliament know who the senior officials in each region are, who are contact persons so that we will be able to deal expeditiously with the social grant cases.

I want to concur with the sentiments expressed by the hon Mr Burrows as far as SANCA is concerned.  The United Nations, the world and our country right up to the level of our Ministry of Home Affairs, our Premier and our State President is giving the highest priority to drug offenders.  To cut back the monetary allocations to an organisation like SANCA is really, doing tremendous harm to the control of drugs, especially in the field of education.  I want to suggest to the hon Minister to review this.

I want to make one appeal to the hon Minister.  The rules relating to our social pensions were made by a white Government.  Let us take our culture, the Zulu culture and the Indian culture in respect of the ownership of properties.  We believe, that even if I bought a property it is put in the name of my father but when the father decides to transfer an asset which is not his property, to those of the children the grant is affected.  Why should that be so?  Because recognition of the traditions and the cultures of the various communities is enshrined in our Constitution.

I want to suggest to the hon Minister that this policy be reviewed.  Where a father transfers the assets to the children, which according to our culture is not the father's property, the grant should remain unaffected.  It is a different case if the holder of a grant alienates his property and violates the rule.  Therefore I want to make an appeal that these traditions and customs be recognised.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I also want to make an appeal.  When letters are written by members of Parliament to the head office at ~Ulundi~, to the regional office in Durban they are never answered.  I want to say that sometimes I approach a telephone with a measure of trepidation, and old ladies on the line all I have to say, "I sent the letter.  I did not receive a reply".  It is embarrassing to tell social welfare pensioners that you cannot get reasonable responses to your queries.

Therefore I make an appeal, give us a hot line in each region so that MP's queries can be answered as expeditiously or speedily as possible.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, the hon member Mr Rajbansi.  I now call on the hon member Miss M N Buthelezi to address the committee for 12 minutes.

MISS M N BUTHELEZI: 
TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Firstly, I want to congratulate the Minister of Pensions and Social Welfare, and say that what he is doing is very clear, that it is done indeed.  He has even been given the qualifications of it being said that he is the husband of the widows.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MISS M N BUTHELEZI:  Social welfare includes the right to basic needs such as shelter, food, health care, work opportunities, income security and all those aspects that promote the physical, social and emotional wellbeing of all the people in our society, with provision made for those who are unable to provide for themselves because of specific problems.

Social welfare rights and distribution of benefits must be guided by the principles of user empowerment and participation through community and worker based citizen's rights education programmes.

We have to focus on the reconstruction of family and community life by prioritising and responding to the needs of families with no income, women and children who have been victims of domestic and other forms of violence, young offenders and all those affected by substance abuse.

A comprehensive range of social service programmes must be developed in partnership with community-based structures to respond to the specific needs of elderly, and those in chronic emotional distress.  Community-based and community planned rehabilitation programmes must be encouraged to meet the needs of the disabled and democratic Government must make adequate resources available for rehabilitation.

The education and training needs of disabled, and other marginalised groups should be catered for as part of a process of facilitating access to the facilities and to the economy, so that disadvantaged groups are seen as an asset by themselves and by society at large.

The efficient and effective delivery of services is contingent upon sound human resource planning and development.  An appropriately trained pool of personnel at all levels, which includes both generic and specialised services, should be developed.  Appropriate training must be provided by all employers in the welfare sector.

We have to ensure that the skills of personnel in the social welfare sector are upgraded, and comprehensive capacity programmes should be embarked upon by both public and private social welfare sectors.  Such programmes should be based on a systematic analysis of training needs and must also form part of ongoing in-service training programmes.

Training programmes should be specifically designed to re-orientate existing personnel towards developmental approaches.  Some of these should be in-house programmes, others should be provided by both governmental and non-governmental organisations.

One important aspect of people being able to take control of their lives, is their capacity building to control their own fertility.  As the Government, we must ensure that appropriate information and services are available to enable all people to do this.  Reproductive rights must be guaranteed, and reproductive health services must promote people's right to privacy and dignity.  Family planning programmes must be promoted through the population development programme, which has an allocation of R1,657 million.

EDUCATION AND TRAINING

Social development theory and practice must provide the framework for welfare education and training programmes.  The Department of welfare should encourage institutions to review current welfare education, training programmes and curricula, particularly in universities and technikons.

Core courses should be redesigned and made flexible and sensitive to Provincial and inter-Provincial variations.  Curricula and training materials should be indigenous and culturally sensitive, and a balance should be maintained between therapeutic and developmental methodologies.  Curricula should be developed in consultation with service providers.  Many other new directions, education and training in the welfare field are needed, such as developmental social welfare and social development, welfare programming, appropriate programmes for people with disabilities, for example people using sign language, rural development practice and others.

Selection procedures for admission to the social work profession should be standardised by the training institutions.  Training of social welfare personnel should be tailored to meet South Africa's basic needs.  Community development workers should be trained to work with National, Provincial and Local Government structures, including NGOs and help them in prioritising community needs and accessing resources.  This key aspect of training to facilitate community participation should be identified as an essential prerequisite for the effective implementation of the RDP.

As the Government of KwaZulu-Natal our vision should be to have a welfare system which will facilitate the development of human capacity and self-reliance within a caring and enabling socio-economic environment.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon member Miss Buthelezi.  I now ask the hon member Mr D P Mfayela to address the committee for eight minutes.

MR D P MFAYELA: 

TRANSLATION:  Chairman, and your hon House.  I am grateful for getting this opportunity to say something about the speech of the hon Minister who is in charge of this Department.  His speech was one of substance, and it gives hope in a very substantial way.

This Department, Chairman, was where ~apartheid~ was felt most keenly by the poor people.  For a long time black people, who may be estimated to number in their thousands, were paid R3,00 every two months.  The money required by the shopkeepers was the same for buying the essential things for everybody in this country.

In all that has happened, Chairman, and your hon House, members of this House should thank the Government of KwaZulu who stood and raised a hue and cry to the Government of the day which was sitting in Pretoria.  The intention of this cry was on behalf of the disabled and the poorest of the poor of this country, so that they too could get pensions that were better in order that they could buy food.

Even now a lot of our brothers and sisters who were in exile would have come back, Mr Chairman, and found that their parents had died of hunger.  At this time the Department continued in its efforts to keep the vultures at bay.  We must stand behind this Department together with the community that we come from.  We must try to teach them about this campaign of the Department to fight the criminals, and the thieves who are causing the nation to go backwards so that the task of the police in catching these rogues is made easier.

It is also important for the Department to support us, and it should act quickly when it has received a report so that the rogues and thieves are caught quickly, perhaps before the damage is too great.  This Department, Chairman, accepts that a lot of people are dead whereas in fact they are alive.  One does not know what the Department is doing about this situation.

There are a lot of people that are blind, that are told to go to doctors to verify that they are still blind.  Unfortunately their pension is suspended permanently.  I do not know what the Department is doing about this.  The community that comes to receive its pension is made to suffer at some of the offices of the Department.

This is reported to the officials of the Department and there is no success which is discernable in the Department in this regard.  The money that is meant to help the disabled that is sent to the offices of the Department in the various regions, I think that it is important that the Department comes closer to their offices so that they can see that the money is received by the correct people.  Not the relations that are liked by those people that are employed in the offices of the Department.

There are people who are made to pay monies which it is alleged they took in their pensions, that those monies were included in their pensions whereas in fact they did not take those monies.  What does the Department say about those people?  There are people who are carried who cannot walk because they are very sick, who are in their homes, because we do not have roads in the rural areas that can be used to take the people from their homes.  It is a problem to take a person to where the payments are made.

Eventually the pension of that person is stopped, and it is alleged that that person is dead.  The Department must watch over those social workers for us, and see whether they are doing their job properly in those cases.

Then there is the problem of files that go missing in the Department.  We do not know whether the Department investigates fully to see whether the files that they have in the Department, that is regarding applications from people who require pensions.

Where are those files kept?  How safe are they where they are kept?  Perhaps the Department could assist us in regard to these complaints which are similar to these, to draw closer and for there to be people who ensure that the Department is not derailed by people who have their own intentions.  Thank you, Chairman.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, the hon member Mr Mfayela.  I am now going to adjourn for lunch and thank the members for co-operating to enable us to get to this stage and ask that we reconvene promptly at 2 o'clock so that we can get through the long afternoon that is in front of us.  Thank you.  The Committee stands adjourned.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED AT 12:57
	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED AT 14:32

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The House resumes.  Hon members, there is going to be a swearing in ceremony of a new member from the ANC.  I request the Whip of the ANC to escort him in.  Mr Magubane, if you have no objection to taking this oath which I am going to read to you now, if you will raise your hand once I am finished reading it and say, "So help me God", or you affirm.

MR EMMANUEL MAGUBANE IS SWORN IN

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  You may sign the paper in front of you.  [APPLAUSE]  

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  At this point in time I wish to convert the House back into Committee of Supply and again will request Mr Haygarth to continue with the vote on the Department of Welfare.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE ADJOURNED
	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE RESUMED

RESUMED DEBATE: VOTE 13: DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now call on the hon member Mrs J M Downs to speak for four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Sorry, my microphone was not on.  We just had a wonderful lunch with the Minister of Welfare.  I hope after this speech he is not going to ask me to pay for my own lunch.  That was by way of a lighter note.

I would like to actually bring up three situations in the Welfare Department, which I would like to address.  The first one is the Excelsior Place of Safety in Pinetown.  Whilst we are fully supportive as a party of specialised places of safety for juvenile offenders, I do know that the people of Pinetown do not think that they have been fairly treated.  You addressed that in your speech.

The problem that I have is that the people of Pinetown, months and months ago offered to supply an alternative piece of land to the Welfare Department in order to build a new facility.  The school next door to the proposed facility also offered to purchase the existing grounds that were there.

You say in your speech, sir, that it would take too long for the transfer of land to take place.  In the original correspondence members of your Department actually wrote back to the Pinetown Municipality and the Ratepayers' Association telling them when, they had offered to actually give you as the Welfare Department this piece of land for no money, your Department wrote back to them and said to them, "Sorry, we cannot help you.  We do not have any money".  Obviously this was a complete misunderstanding of the correspondence that went to your Department from the people of Pinetown.

When I talk about the Welfare Department, I often talk about the murky waters of the Welfare Department, because trying to get any information either in or out of their is like diving into a deep dark pool.  If I can just give a plea to you, as my colleague the hon Mr Rajbansi did earlier, please can someone in the Department take our letters and our requests and our queries seriously and actually reply to them, because this happens all the time.  We just do not get replies to questions that we are asking.

One of the things that I did ask about, was the Excelsior Place of Safety, many months ago, when it seemed that there was a problem with the Department in understanding what the Municipality and the residents of Pinetown were proposing.  I think that if that had been timeously attended to there is the possibility that that place of safety could have gone up in a different place, which would perhaps have been more suitable.

I also think that your Department does owe the ratepayers of Pinetown an explanation.  They do not feel that they have been adequately answered in the things that they are concerned about.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has a minute left.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Okay.  The third thing I would like to talk about it the mentally handicapped members of our society.  If I could just join in with the hon member who spoke previous to me from the ANC, Miss Nahara, and just say that these members of our society are the most disadvantaged of all.  Their subsidies are barely livable as it is and there is very little help and consideration given to these people.

The few homes that are available are underfunded and they are under-subscribed.  I know that you are working within huge budget constraints and that a lot of this is no fault of your own.  I really do think that unless we attend to the least of our members of society, which often the mentally handicapped are regarded as, then we are not a truly just and democratic society.

I would ask that in your youth plans, and in your youth commissions, that there is something that we can look at to help these people to get them involved in normal society.  The past has been to shove them away in their own homes and put them aside and keep them out of society's reach.  I believe that the mentally handicapped, the physically disabled and people with other problems should actually be integrated into society, and be involved.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MRS J M DOWNS:  We should be having some kind of incentive to businesses to employ these people.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member.  I now call on the hon Mrs T E Millin for nine minutes please.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  The hon Minister, in his address, has more than adequately dealt with the facts and figures in his policy speech and he, together with his Department, in spite of certain criticisms to the contrary must be commended for their combined efforts, I feel.

I am in agreement also with our Minister when he states that the emphasis should be on the welfare of our people, as opposed to the pensions side of things, such as grants and maintenance and so on.  Whilst this is very necessary, the poorest of the poor, do tend to perpetuate the hand-out mentality, which is not only very demoralising to the individual, but serves to discourage an individual's initiative to self-reliance.

It is also a fact that no country on earth can sustain indefinitely a welfare system, particularly when, as in our case, the wealth-creating sector is a tiny minority in relation to the wealth-consuming sector, which is huge, and growing.

If a large, extremely wealthy and highly advanced economy such as the United States for example, cannot sustain its welfare system, it is naive in the extreme, and moreover highly irresponsible for an economy such as ours, particularly in these very difficult times, to be expected to deliver, and continue to do so ad infinitum, to the growing masses of economically deprived in our country.

Clearly the amount available for redistribution must be, as I have already stated, only for the most deserving cases, which brings one to the causes of the parlous state of affairs in South Africa today.

Many of us, across political divides, warned at the time that the economic sanctions and disinvestment campaign of the 80s, spearheaded by that much-acclaimed "man of truth", Tutu, that the universal law of cause and effect would inevitably lead to loss of jobs and incomes, homes and other benefits, even to such tragedies as the breakup of families as we witnessed, which, in turn leads on to deprivation of every kind, and then to desperation whereby any means would be justified to feed, clothe and shelter one's family.  So, the escalation of crime, in order to obtain the basic necessities, and then more crime to satisfy wants rather than needs.

Those of us who warned repeatedly of the pernicious dangers of wilfully destroying South Africa's economy, and I am proud to associate myself with such distinguished leaders, in being actively engaged in opposing those boycotts, sanctions and disinvestments, including people of the calibre of Helen Suzman, Mangosuthu Buthelezi, the late Alan Paton, and many others.  The results of such a devilish plot, in setting about to destroy a nation's economy are so logically obvious, that it truly boggles the mind to think that presumably intelligent luminaries such as Tutu, and the current leaders of the ruling Government of our country, could not, and still cannot or possibly will not acknowledge that the aftermath of such a campaign is manifest in the looming disaster, and growing anarchy that threatens to engulf us...

HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MRS T E MILLIN:  The guilty always shout the loudest.

With regard to Archbishop Tutu, who, far from being chastised for almost single-handedly having sought to destroy our nation's economy during the 80s, has instead received acclaim and accolades, even the Noble Peace Prize!

It is my firm belief, had Tutu, as head of the so-called Truth Commission acknowledged his key role in bringing about the 40% plus unemployment rate in South Africa today....

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

AN HON MEMBER:  Protection.

MRS T E MILLIN: .....and presented himself as the first to appear before his own Commission, he would have gained immeasurably in stature, figuratively even if not literally, in the eyes of the former Government and my own party.  Indeed, such a gesture would in itself no doubt have gone a long way towards really meaningful reconciliation, rather than the sadly divisive spectacle of acrimony and revenge we are currently witnessing...

Instead, in the words of Psalm 10, Verse 2.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS T E MILLIN:  Listen, listen, my hon members.  In Psalm 10, Verse 2, one can justifiably echo the words which reflect Tutu's past actions:

	In his arrogance the wicked man hunts down the weak who are caught in the schemes, (in this case sanctions and disinvestments), that he devises.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, I cannot hear the speaker clearly.  She is making a very intelligent speech and the members are disturbing her.  Particularly, she is Mr Peter Miller's great favourite.  [LAUGHTER]

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you.  I am sure I am!  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Not even if every cent of our budget were to be thrown at Welfare and Pensions, would it be able to alleviate, on a long-term basis the immense problems the Welfare and Pensions Ministry, in particular, but other Ministries in general are currently grappling with.  Indeed for a semblance of normality to return, the rampant crime and unemployment plague are number one priorities.

To quote from the Sunday Times' "Opinion" of 4 May 1997:

	Playing to the world gallery while home burns.  Violent crime has become a national disaster.  It is time the Government stopped making excuses.

In this case the National Government.

	It is time the Government got its priorities right.  Crime and jobs.  These are the desperate, and probably interlinked pleas of South Africans of every hue.  In both cases the Government has failed dismally, pathetically, criminally.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, I again thank our Minister and his Department officials for a job well done in very, very far from ideal circumstances.  I give my support to this vote.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, the hon Mrs Millin and for saving us time as well.  I now call on the hon member Mrs O E Ford to address the Committee for nine minutes.

MRS O E FORD:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, and I trust that I have the attention of the whole House.  Zip up and listen.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MRS O E FORD:  Mr Chairman, I would first of all like to congratulate our hon Minister on his comprehensive budget speech and his Department as well, helping him in fighting the fraud that has been rampant.

When you think of the underprivileged who have only got R470,00 to live on in a month, and that money is being stolen from them, it makes me get into what I like to call, and please pardon the pun, killer mode.  It is different to the killer modes we have seen in this Province before, mine is purely mental.

Maintenance grants.  There is a big problem in some areas with the Department of Pensions, Social Welfare should I rather say, and the Department of Home Affairs, because of the birth certificates that were issued in the old KwaZulu Government that did not have an ID number on it.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS O E FORD:  For your information, gentlemen, this is for you so that you can absorb it.  Do not talk such a lot, rather listen.  The problem is only in some areas, I do not know why, but I think it is somewhere coming down through the ranks.  The actual information as to how this should be handled is not quite clear.  I am hoping that in the very near future, particularly in my area, that problem can be solved.

Then I go onto the graft at pay points, and I second what the hon Mr Khoza has said.  It is definitely happening.  Doctors are taking backhands, staff at pension points are taking backhands even the pensioner committees, I hear, are taking backhands.  When you get your money at the end of the day it is a heck of a lot less than your R470,00.

I have stressed, and I hope the other members of this House will stress in their constituencies that affidavits are necessary for the Department to do anything.  It is no good people just saying, "Oh, I was asked to pay".  They must have a signed affidavit, and then the Department can do something about it.

Street children.  Anything that affects children is very, very close to my heart.  I hate the thought of children being disadvantaged, of being abused or anything like that.  If the Department could find funding for homes for street children it would help an awful lot.

There are outreach programmes, but the children tend to abscond from the shelters.  They move from one programme to another.  Some, not many, do return to their families.  I know of one case in my home town of a little boy whose mother has a drinking problem.  She beats seven kinds of nonsense out of him when she is as full as a tick, and he leaves home.  When something is done about it, and he is put back into school, and placed back in his home, it does not last very long and he is outside our local Checkers again begging.

Those are the sort of children that really do need help.  He is not on glue but he is terrified to go home.  He has told me that when he goes home he gets beaten.  So he just does not go home.

Offices that have been opened.  I would like to thank the Department for the office that has been opened in Estcourt.  I am sure it will help us enormously in the problems that we have been having in that whole district.  When the offices open in Bergville it will alleviate the rush, the crowds at the Estcourt office as well.

I would like to thank Mr Mhlongo and the regional director from Pietermaritzburg for visiting the Estcourt office with me and trying to help sort out the problems that have been experienced in our area.  I would also like to thank our Minister, the hon Prince Gideon Zulu, for visiting Estcourt to listen to the pensioners' problems.  I would thank him in advance for the visit he will be making to Weenen, to listen to their problems.  I am hoping that in Weenen they come up with affidavits, so that when the Minister visits these areas it helps an awful lot, because if one of us, as a member of Parliament, says to the Minister or his DG this is what is happening.  He says, "Okay, I hear you", but when it is members of the community who stand up and say, "This is what is happening", then the message seems to go home a heck of a lot better.

The priorities for 1997, I hope are zips for the opposite members of the House.  I am delighted that women and children's issues are on the list of priorities for 1997.  I would also like, after last week's debate on the rape situation in this country, I trust that every member of this House is giving that information out to the people in their constituencies, because the women on the ground do not know what their rights are.  They do not know how to handle themselves in that sort of situation.  I trust that it has gone through, has sunk in in some of the thick heads, that that is what the whole idea of these debates is for, is so that they have then got the information to spread amongst the population, not to sit here and nitpick and throw little stones across the floor.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MRS O E FORD:  Mr Chairman, I hope I have saved time too because we have another very important debate this afternoon.  Once again, in closing, I would like to thank the hon Minister for the interest that he has shown in the people of this Province and trying to protect them.  I have no qualms whatsoever in supporting his budget.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon member Mrs Ford.  I now call on the hon Mrs Galea to address the Committee for seven minutes.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Chairperson.  I also would like to thank the hon Minister Prince Gideon Zulu, and his Department for their comprehensive report on the Department of Social Welfare and Population Development.

The Welfare Department is responsible for payments of social security of some 364 000 benefits, which comprises 93,80 something percent of the budget, and also for the care and wellbeing of families, children, the aged, the disabled and other needy and poverty stricken people.

Of concern is that of the over 50 000 pension files.  I know much has been spoken about this.  They are new applications, pension reviews and queries that have still be to captured on the mainframe.  Unfortunately due to low response time whereas before 300 files could be captured daily per staff member, now they can only process 50 per day.  This is not good enough as many pensioners have been removed from the computer as deceased incorrectly and have to wait months to be reinstated.  It is unacceptable that the Department should deprive people of their bread and butter because of a computer.

It is pleasing to hear that a group of staff have been identified to work on the backlog.  If there are still problems please let us as a Portfolio Committee know because then we can try and assist in getting more staff or ways and means of getting these files processed quicker.

In the White Paper of Social Welfare, at page 52, Violence against Women.

	Strategies will be devised to counteract all forms of abuse and violence against women.  A range of support services will be provided for women who have been battered, raped and sexually abused.  Such women will be given assistance in dealing effectively with both the immediate crises and in long term effects of the trauma.  Women will also be supported through legal proceedings.  Police officers, Magistrates and criminal justice personnel will be trained in the management of violence against women.

All the above will be of great assistance, but do the various departments have sufficient staff?  Have they been trained to do this and is there sufficient funding?  Whilst talking about staff, have all the top posts in the Department and acting positions been confirmed yet or filled?  I would like an answer to that.

VICTIM EMPOWERMENT.  

A programme aimed at assessing the rights of victims and empowering them so as to create a victim centred criminal justice system, and establishing a climate in which victims will increasingly play their role in ensuring successful prosecutions.

CRIMES AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN.  

A programme designed to combat what has been officially declared a National priority crime, by raising awareness about sexual assault, rape, child abuse and wife battery.

Welfare was an equal partner in promoting the National Crime Prevention strategy, particularly in the area of providing secure care for juveniles awaiting trial.  Over the next 12 months the provinces will be launching 15 facilities catering for 625 young people at the cost of R33 million.

All members should be informed of contact people and updated on these various programmes so that we can be of service to our community, and also keep them informed.  The number of complaints of abuse against children have increased.  Child Welfare organisations are swamped with cases of children who have been physically or otherwise abused.  They expect the situation to deteriorate even further.  Their ability to solve the problem effectively is seriously restricted by the staff shortages and funding.

AIDS.  Much needs to be done here.

-	to analyse the current situation
-	to identify and establish regulations with stakeholders
-	to develop care and support models for children who are affected by HIV/AIDS
-	to develop and formulate a policy framework
-	to establish assessment mechanisms for community based care and support programmes
-	to develop awareness raising programmes

NACOSA KwaZulu-Natal have a Provincial AIDS implementation plan which was handed over to the Provincial Government in October 1994.  I do not know whether this was circulated to all departments but I know our Portfolio Committee has not seen this document.

Information is needed on the prevention and education of people in connection with AIDS.  They need to be informed about access to barrier methods:

-	Care
-	Welfare assistance
-	Counselling
-	The pre-test and post-test counselling
-	Allocation of funds;  and
-	The co-ordination with the intersectoral task group.

I would like to know more about the project to develop alternative ways of caring for children who were affected by HIV/AIDS, mentioned in the report under the Pietermaritzburg region.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute left.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you.  I have read about the National Department's strategic priorities of 1997, being poverty reduction, particularly through the pilot projects such as the Flagship programme for unemployed women with children under five.  Pilot programmes will be aimed at helping women become economically productive by giving them skills to enter the workforce or to work for themselves.  National and Provincial Departments of Welfare have drawn up guidelines for planning and implementation of the projects.

Has this been started in KwaZulu-Natal?  In the report it mentions that we have only been given a few hundred Rand to implement this.  All these projects and programmes look good on paper, but unless we are kept informed and we have the funds we cannot ensure that all this can be implemented.

The Portfolio Committee and Parliament should also be informed when National initiatives are being initiated in KwaZulu-Natal.  Surely there should be some form of protocol which would include us all as well.

Of great concern is the syndicate which is defrauding us of over R300 million.  Perhaps we could follow up those businesses who cash those Government crossed cheques.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MRS C E GALEA:  In closing, I support the budget.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member Mrs Galea.  I now call on the hon member Mr F Rehman to speak to the Committee for ten minutes.

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Chairman, hon colleagues.  I would at first like to congratulate our hon Minister of Welfare and Pensions, Prince Gideon Zulu, on his budget.

The Department of Social Welfare and Population Development is committed, through an empowered staff, to the provision, promotion and development of a comprehensive, people centred social welfare service to the community of KwaZulu-Natal.  The amalgamation of the welfare services from the five previous departments into one single Department has taken place.  Because these departments were huge and handled thousands of files, I know our hon Minister and his Department had a tremendous amount of work and responsibility in reconciling all these files into one single Department.

It is pleasing to note that the Department has adopted a one-stop registration, in order to reduce the period of time in the taking, processing, and approving of pension applications.  We have to compliment our hon Minister who has publicly condemned fraud.  He had made it known that those who are found guilty will not be let off the hook very easily.

Mr Chairman, in order to prevent hijackings of pension money, I humbly appeal to our hon Minister to encourage the recipients of pension to either open a bank or a Post Office account.  This would not only save his Department money, but would also prevent fraud and short payment to the illiterate in our rural areas.  This would also save the poor people time and energy trekking for several kilometres and waiting for hours, sometimes being told money will only be available the next day.

Once again, the justice system of our country confuses me.  If and when a person is charged for child abuse, the courts deem it fit to impose a fine of R20 000 or five years' imprisonment but if and when an elderly is attacked the courts impose a fine of R100,00.  What is wrong with us?  Do we not respect our elderly?  We must remember that society is judged by the way it treats its elderly.  We must guarantee the rights and safety of our old people in our country.  It is sad to note that the ruling party in our country has not passed a single law in Parliament in this regard.  Looking around me in this hon House, we have a lot of hon members who very soon will fall under this category.

With regard to street children, rather than grouping these children together, we should rather find ways and means of reuniting them with their families.  With regard to social pensions, this has to be reviewed.  We know that there is an enormous burden on the State.  The role of non-government organisations will have to be encouraged, so as to lessen the reliance on the State.  There has to be a greater partnership between business, NGOs and the State.  Those who earn below a certain amount, should be encouraged to take part in the RDP programme.

Mr Chairman, there is not a day that passes by in this hon House that we do not hear of gender inequality.  It is a well-known fact that women live longer than men.  I am not inciting my fellow male colleagues in this House, but merely stating the fact that it is grossly unfair for us men to receive pensions at the age of 65 and yet my fellow women colleagues in this hon House will receive their pension at the age of 60.  [LAUGHTER]  I do hope that our hon Minister, being from the gender that is affected, will be able to answer this abnormality.

With regards to the School of Industries in Newcastle, which is being administered both by the Welfare Department and the Education Department is costing us, the taxpayers, thousands of Rands.  I have already brought this to the attention of our Education Portfolio Committee.

Whilst I understand that these are special case children sent by the courts, I, being a previous member of the board of management for this school do, however, feel that there are 72 teachers and officials in charge of only 99 pupils.  It is not really a business-like proposition.  A number of houses on this property, and hostels and one section of this school has been standing empty for a number of years.  This part of the school can be utilised for a Primary school for the nearby residents.  I am certain that our hon Minister will immediately take the necessary steps he deems necessary to curtail the costs of running this school.

Mr Chairman, in conclusion, I would like to thank the hon Minister and the senior officials of the Department for having an open door policy to everyone, irrespective of their political affiliations.  I thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon member, saving us some time as well.  I now call on the hon member Mr F Dlamini to address the Committee for 14 minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you, Chairperson.  I would like to join the chorus and commend the Minister for making an attempt to fight corruption in the social security area.

In my contribution to the budget this afternoon, I wish to start by making general comments on the following aspects, namely:

-	accessibility of the social welfare system in this Province
-	regionalisation
-	the structure of the Department
-	negative attitudes of public servants
-	foster grants and disability grants
-	State maintenance grants, vis-a-vis the child support programme that is going to be introduced
-	street children and rehabilitation centres.

Time allowing, I will also focus on specific budget items.  Chairperson, I would like to preface my input by saying that budget debates are often seen as a criticism of the Department officials, and seldom viewed as an expression of concern about lack of delivery to meet the needs of the consumers, and our collective responsibility to make sure that this happens.

In the ~apartheid~ Government services were inaccessible by design.  Let us not make the services inaccessible through neglect.  The Department of Social Welfare and Population Development has not made any significant transformation up until now.  What has been interpreted as transformation is the so-called amalgamation of administrations.  Regionalisation has been done according to ~apartheid~ lines.  It is hard to conceive the rationale that was used in establishing these regions other than to say this is the following pattern in which they have been established.

~Ulundi~ region serves the areas that used to belong to the erstwhile KwaZulu Government.  

The Durban region is what used to be a predominantly House of Delegates territory.  For proof of this look at who has been receiving social relief in Stanger.  Look at the deployment of social workers in the region, with 25 social workers serving Phoenix with a population of about half of Inanda, served by six social workers.  Look at the promotion, who is holding what position.

I do not think this is by accident.  Consumers of services down there have actually observed this.  My colleague, the hon Miss Xulu, made a very serious comment about an apparent neglect of applicants for grants from ~Umlazi~ and KwaMashu by the Durban Regional Office.

The Pietermaritzburg region is basically along the old NPA lines.  I can even go to the extent of saying that there has been no remarkable change in the levels of efficiency.  The region that has delivered better services still does and the region that has been on the lowest rank of efficiency has not moved.  We would like to see out-sourcing of skills to try and bring regions on par, at least.

The structure of the Department leaves much to be desired.  I cannot visualise this service Department operating without the three basic components, namely:

-	The social security division
-	The social welfare services division
-	The policy making division

The hon Mrs Galea, has already asked about confirmation of the acting positions in this Department.  We need to know what the organigram of this Ministry or this Department is.  It is sometimes worrying to look at the top structure, the head office structure, and see that there is actually nobody at head office, but for the Secretary of the Department and a Deputy Director.

A properly structured Head Office is basic and essential in running the Department.  The Department cannot rely on drawing personnel from regions, because that is stressful to those individuals and also affects their management efficiency in their own regions.

The above scenario which indicates a grim lack of capacity, tells us that we cannot even dream of budgetary prioritisation and special attention to rural welfare service delivery, youth development and perhaps the whole concept of a paradigm shift from residual welfare to the social development model.

My colleague Miss Fatima Nahara, has elaborated on the negative attitude of public servants, namely the clerical staff and some of the professional workers.  The manner in which people requiring services are dealt with is embarrassing.  We need to re-educate our service-givers on how to deal with the members of the public.  Failure to do this will certainly discredit and taint the image of this Department, and that is undesirable.

I would like to make brief comments on foster grants and disability grants on a policy level.  The Lund Committee has recommended that the foster grant or foster care grant should be retained as is at present.  That is commendable.  As we know, foster care grants are obtainable until a child turns 18 years.  A policy on saving part of the grant, however small it may be, needs to be drawn up to make provision for the child when he or she becomes of age, because what actually happens at that stage, is that a child who does not have anything to fall back on is actually thrown into the deep end, without any means of survival after the age of 18.  That is a policy matter, but because we have got no policy department in this Province we cannot even start to think about it.

Social security spending is now reaching the ceiling, and we must therefore think of innovative ways of alternative provision for the disabled, which is less humiliating.  Talking about social security, I must commend the hon Mr Mfayela for adding to the many questions that have been asked about social pensions in this House today.

The strategy to combat skills shortage must consider the disabled.  It is high time we legislated for employment of the disabled in the open labour market, namely by ensuring that a nominal percentage of the workforce in every enterprise comprises physically or sensory incapacitated persons.  Tax relief should be encouraged for employment of the disabled so as to entice the private sector to accept this idea.  The Lund Committee report reveals that Africans have benefitted the least from the State maintenance grant that is just about to be done away with.  The figures are as follows:

48% of the SMG went to the coloureds
40% to Indians
15% to whites
Only 3% to Africans.

This is dismal.  This is partly because of the following:

1.	Lack of knowledge and understanding of grants available by the African community.
2.	The ~apartheid~ system that made these benefits inaccessible to Africans;  and
3.	Brainwashing of public servants to believing that Africans were abusing State Maintenance Grants.

Now I speak as a social worker because I know this has been happening, and nobody can deny this.  This grant is now going to be replaced by the Child Support Programme that will attempt an equitable distribution of the grants.  Of course the communities that have benefitted from the State Maintenance Grants in the past will complain a lot and they are already complaining.

In passing, may I say that little attention has been paid to the plight of street children in terms of the living conditions in their rehabilitation centres.  We need to put on our thinking caps in this regard.  Perhaps what we need is investigating in fighting the cause of street children as opposed to funding NGOs that establish homes for these children.  Should we attempt to do this it must be borne in mind that it can only be on a long term base.

As a matter of urgency we need to focus on the concept of family preservation programmes.  

Before I move to specific budget items, I would like to say that we shall be monitoring progress with interest in the Department, following on information given at the budget briefing, on the following items:

-	A numeracy programme
-	Planned projects for unemployed
-	Regional pilot projects
-	Retraining of social workers
-	Community centres planned for Umbumbulu, Ukhahlamba and Impendle.

These are things that are very close to our hearts and therefore will be monitored with interest in the current financial year.

BUDGET ITEMS

SOCIAL ASSISTANCE

I now move on to the budget items.  On social assistance I would like to add to what the hon Mr Burrows said earlier on.  There is a zero budget increase on social assistance and this is a blow to 1 002 subsidised private welfare organisations and institutions.  This affects 34 620 people who benefitted from this subsidy.  Some organisations allege that there was no prior warning that there was not going to be an increase in their subsidies, so that they could have planned for the consequence.

SOCIAL WELFARE SERVICES

On social welfare services I will single out hospitalisation of the disabled, that has a zero budget increase as well.  We understand the move towards community based services coupled with improving the quality of life.  However, up until now there has been no development of residential facilities, no quarters in terms of the law allowing for employment of the disabled or rehabilitated people.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you.  There is an increase reflected towards the disabled.  If my guess is correct, this is towards the blind in ~Umlazi~.  This financial support, whilst welcome, is not a cost effective exercise, because people at the Blind Society are producing but not selling the products.  A mechanism to market their products must be put into place.

SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT

Social development.  There is a zero budget increase again in this area.  The message to me is that the recommendations of the White Paper are not recognised.

AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVICES

Finally, on the auxiliary and associated services.  Again a zero budget increase on transport.  Operational staff lose a lot of man hours or person hours waiting for transport in their offices and therefore cannot do fieldwork.  The subsidy scheme should be reconsidered so that professional staff can have resources to perform their work.  Manpower estimates is another very disturbing area unless one gets a very clear explanation.

Under this item we will see the following breakdown:

-	There are 21 posts reflected on the budget
-	One at Chief Director level
-	16 at Deputy or Assistant Director level
-	4 at administrator level

And there is no indication of who serves under these Deputy Directors or who serves under these Assistant Directors.  To use a hackneyed expression, there appears to be too many chiefs and no Indians at all.

Chairperson, with those few words I would like to say that I wholeheartedly support the Minister's budget.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon member Mr Dlamini.  I now call on the hon Minister Prince Gideon Zulu to reply to the debate.  Hon Minister.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Social Welfare):  Mr Chairman, I wish to thank my colleagues for having thoroughly debated the budget speech on Social Welfare.  I wish to assure them that their input will definitely be taken into account.

I wish to thank the Chairman of the Social Welfare Portfolio Committee, Mr Ngema, for his remarks.  Mr Ngidi, most of the issues raised are covered by the policy speech.  Shelters.  The major works programme provides for two new projects, namely Umbumbulu, new offices to be built this year.  Izingolweni, major renovations have just been completed.  Ndwedwe, renovations are currently in process.  Maphumulo, renovations are currently in process.  Programmes for the aged which could improve their economic situation do exist but there is a need to increase this.

Regarding Mr Burrows.  This question concerning backlogs and SANCA need thorough answers.  I can promise him that his question requires a detailed answer.  So I can assure him that he will receive written detailed answers.

Miss Nahara, the inter-departmental meeting needs the intervention of the Department of Welfare and the Department of Health.   State homes - it is not the policy for the State to take over specialised services such as mental health.  I do not hold much hope that the State coffers will be able to accommodate such an idea in the near future.  This is a highly specialised field.  I am convinced it resorts with the experts in the private sector.  Current thinking leans heavily towards the withdrawal of the State from service rendering and encourages private sector autonomy.

As far as the hon member Mr Rajbansi is concerned, a list of contact numbers for Heads of Regions will be supplied.  Cultural differences being brought into the means test is not possible in terms of the current National legislation.  The member's suggestion will nevertheless be borne in mind when the legislation is revisited.  Enquiry lines already exist.  The details will be made known.

Cuts to the budget, eg of SANCA, a reply in writing will be supplied.

Then the hon member Mr Rehman.  Pensionable age.  This has been debated.  The age of 63 was considered.  The financial implications are, however, prohibitive and further changes have therefore been shelved.

School of Industries.  As mentioned in the report, part of this school is to be utilised for secure care, thus ensuring a more cost effective institution.

I think the hon member Mr F Dlamini surely needs a detailed written answer, that I think will satisfy him.

The hon member Mrs Downs spoke about the Excelsior Place of Safety.  Madam, the people of Pinetown have had a chain of meetings with my Department regarding this place of safety.  We have been to Pinetown several times to discuss this question.  We seemed to have agreed during the last meeting, where I had brought along the architects to effect improvements on that building, because there were many complaining that it looked like a prison.  Unfortunately it was built before my time.  I can only facilitate improvement.

It is a new story that they are coming up with, that now they are offering a new site.  During our last meeting this was never mentioned.  So to me it comes as news.  However, my Department will engage with them at another meeting, to have a thorough discussion.  Sometimes I become suspicious that there are people behind this that fan the flames, that encourage them to start all over again, something that passed, something that we have thoroughly discussed and agreed upon.

I do not like the attitude they are adopting.  They regard these kids as sort of animals.  I want to put it to them, these are our children and it is not due to their making what they are.  It is the outcome of the policies of our country, that existed before.  They are only the victims of circumstances.  So these people must bear with us and work with us.

Mrs Ford and Mrs Millin.  I will discuss with you all that you put in this debate.


TRANSLATION:  Mr Mfayela, I would have been happy, my brother, in relation to these things because you are another member, and I am well acquainted with you.  Oh, he is not here.  His neighbours will tell him, his friends will tell him that it does not help me, that while we work together then he comes to this House and he says these things that he has said, because we work together.  I go there to Ndwedwe, and some of the things I even attend to myself, because what he is speaking about is contained in my speech.

I went to Ndwedwe and I found that there was something untoward going on.  They were there, as the members of Parliament.  So, I was surprised that my brother Mfayela should stab me in the back.  We work together.  His friends will tell him.  I even heard my brothers on the other side saying Mfayela has really struck a blow.  That did not particularly surprise me, because I think that my brother is just confused.  What he is speaking about is contained in my policy speech.  So, it is not very helpful to me, and he knows that I went there and the people told me about these things.  I have one team that deals with corruption.  As I said, the reports, as a result of this programme, are received night and day.  I cannot catch ten fledglings at the same time.

I also heard what Shenge, Miss Buthelezi said, talking about the husband of the widows.  I then realised that I was between the devil and the deep blue sea.  T/E

On the whole I wish to thank everybody that have contributed to the debate on my Department.  I wish to assure you all again that all endeavours will be done to meet your expectations.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon the Minister.  I now close the debate on vote 13 : Social Welfare and at the end of the vote 7 : Health, the matter will be reported to the Speaker.  I now ask the hon member Mr Thami Mohlomi to take the chair for at least the initial part of the Health debate and if necessary, the hon member Mr Dlamini will take over towards the end.  Thank you very much.

MR T S MOHLOMI TAKES THE CHAIR

VOTE 7: DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are now going to debate vote 7, that is the vote of the Department of Health and I wish to call upon Minister Mkhize to address the House.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Mr Chairman, hon members of this House, members of the media, the public gallery.  It is indeed a pleasure to introduce to you today the Health budget for 1997.  I would request members to put their timers in front of them.  This is not because the budget is so generous, or even adequate for that matter, but because I believe I can report on very substantive and meaningful progress in health care delivery over the past year.

In your brown paper bags you will find a number of documents, including a book of statistics showing the most up-to-date figures on visits to hospitals, clinics, patient days, out-patient visits and other items.  The latest health action magazine and various reports and schedules of the Department of Health's activities.

Also in front of you is a cellophane packet with an eggtimer in it.  The egg is a sugar-coated chocolate egg, kindly donated by Beacon Sweets, so you can eat it even though it might not be something a doctor would normally recommend.  The eggtimer is a genuine thing and if you use it to prepare your breakfast you should have a perfect soft boiled egg ready once all the sand has emptied to the bottom.

I am sure that you might think that is a strange introduction to a serious matter like a budget speech and perhaps it is.  However, I do hope that when you see the eggtimer every morning it will help you focus on the issues of health.  Without a healthy nation we will not have an educated nation nor a wealthy nation.  At present we do not have a healthy nation, certainly not healthy now.

Let me give you the reason why I say this.  Since I began talking about three minutes have passed, maybe a little more maybe a little less but more or less the time it takes for your eggtimer to complete one cycle.

In this time, three minutes, another five people in this country have been infected with the HIV virus.  12 babies have been born and probably four or five of them are HIV positive.  There has been a rape.  A child has been abused.  Somebody has been shot, stabbed or beaten.  Two, maybe more, babies have died of a preventable disease like diarrhoea.  Perhaps one of the six children who die of AIDS in KwaZulu-Natal every day has died.  Today a mother will die because of pregnancy complications and 24 babies will also die.

Three minutes, ladies and gentlemen, three minutes.  All these things impinge on health care delivery in this Province and perhaps this example helps illustrate the magnitude of some of the problems that face us.  By us, I do not mean the Department of Health or health care workers in general, nurses or doctors, I mean you and I.

What I believe these figures illustrate is the fact that there is nowhere to hide.  These are not problems that Health alone can address and these are not problems that will affect your life or the lives of your families.  Let us all make a renewed commitment today to do all we can to make our Province a healthier and happier place to live in.

I have said, when we spoke about tourism, I said if the Province is healthy, has got a good health service, the tourists will say KwaZulu-Natal is a safe place in which to fall sick.

Before going on to the next section I would like to refer to a report in the Daily News which listed staff at senior levels of the KwaZulu-Natal Government.  Health is unquestionably the most representative of all with six, not five, African women, six African men, two Indian men, two Indian women, two White men and four White women making up the Head Office team under the direction of a Coloured Secretary of Health.  Excuse me for this, but I think when we talk about representivity we have got to refer to those nomenclatures.

If our Chief Medical Superintendents at institutions, if those are taken into account, our representivity would even be further enhanced and I am very proud of the progress we have made in this regard.

OVERVIEW

The contents of the packet that you have is very comprehensive and I do not intend to repeat a string of facts and figures because those are there for all to see.  Instead I will address the main themes, the achievements and the challenges we face in KwaZulu-Natal and, in so doing, present to you what I hope is a realistic and accurate picture of healthcare in our Province.

Health care delivery on the basis of equity and all human life being of equal importance, and we stress all human life being of equal importance.  This was sadly neglected in this Province, as it was in most of the country.  A great deal of pressures we are facing are because of the equitable delivery of health care across the board, something the system, the facilities and resources were never designed to cater for.

In fact, in terms of SERVICES provided by the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Health, I believe that there has been a change for the better in the past two years in spite of some criticism that has been levelled at the Health Service.  Perhaps the most consistent complaint is to do with the fact that our institutions are under greater stress and this cannot be denied.  However, it is true that the institutions have been opened up to a far greater population base, and that more and more patients are streaming to Government hospitals and, for some at least, the standards might not seem to be what they were.  

However, I believe such CRITICISM must be put in perspective.  A great deal of it comes from groups that have enjoyed a privileged status in the past and the question must therefore be asked whether the bench mark for judging standards is reasonable if taken from the perspective of privilege.

In reality, I am certain that the majority of South Africans believe that health care has improved in the last two years.  In addition, care at South African hospitals is still the finest on the African continent and there is no country in Africa, and many other parts of the world, that can match our services.

This does not mean that there is room for complacency - and there is indeed room for great improvement - but it is not only unfair but it is also inaccurate to say that the reason for changes at all the institutions is because of an inadvisable re-channelling of funds from secondary and tertiary care to primary health care.

The situation in regard to KwaZulu-Natal is that it is true that hospitals have had to make do with smaller budgets in 1996/97 as well as 1997/98, but this is because the total health cake is too small and not because there is an excessive or unwise shift towards primary health care.

Perhaps some serious thought should be given to the notion of tertiary and academic health care becoming a National competence so resources are distributed equally, and this type of care does not impact on provincial budgets.

For the first time in the history of this Province we are viewing the delivery of health care on the basis that every person is equally important, rich or poor.  I believe there have been a great number of successes.

Not least of these successes is finding out what we have been doing badly and why this is.  There is no doubt that the new interactive, and transparent and consultative approach of the new administration has not meshed well with the hierarchial, confidential and instructive system that was inherited.

For this reason, management has embarked on a fairly intensive introspective programme to establish where management is going wrong and how to rectify the situation.  It has been a tough process, exposing, as it has, areas of mistrust, suspicion and inequity.  

In doing so we have chartered a new course to be built on two pillars, that is management competency, and discipline.  This, we believe, is the only way to create a climate in which management will be able to operate effectively and in which staff will be able to deliver the services we are required to deliver to acceptable standards.

This is of particular importance as the indications are that our budget will not grow in real terms and we simply have to become more and more productive.  We cannot have unscheduled disruptions, we cannot afford fraud, we cannot tolerate idleness, we will not brook intimidation.  We must have leadership and we must be innovative and we must be flexible and we must always remember that people are our business.

Included in your package is a new vision, mission and a set of objectives that management has set for the future.  There is also a list of eight focus areas that will be given special attention to try and improve overall health delivery and efficiency.

The strategy has to be to try and change the whole mechanism of Government which is too slow and cumbersome into a much more dynamic and flexible process.  This is essential and in terms of GEAR we simply have to tighten up expenditure and deliver more for less.  We cannot do this with a rigid and inappropriate system.

Before continuing, I would like to state a few facts to provide a more realistic context of KwaZulu-Natal that is often presented in the debate over health issues.  Let us remember, for instance, that of the 8,5 million people in this Province (or maybe even closer to ten, as many believe and hopefully the 1996 census is likely to confirm), the majority live in poverty or very close to it.  To be a bit more precise, 40% of households and 56% of children in this Province live in poverty.  Poverty lines are also somewhat subjective.  Perhaps they should be called destitution lines and a huge percentage that eke out an existence just above the line are hardly living a good life.  

Over 80% of these people are not on a medical aid or insurance scheme and 73% are women and children.

Let us remember that 52% of our people do not have access to running water, and 56% have got no access to electricity.  Over 38% must travel more than 500 metres to collect water and 35% have to travel for more than one hour to get some form of health care, very often the Primary Health Care Clinic.

That is the reality of KwaZulu-Natal, and that is the inheritance of the present Department of Health.  Let us keep that in mind when we consider the equitable delivery of public health care in this Province.  All to often the headlines are about lack of sophisticated services, such as dialysis, at urban hospitals but seldom a word is said about the poor child who never gets as far as even the dialysis machine.  Resources must be distributed evenly and this means there has to be certain limits.

STAFFING

Having started on that note, I think it would be a good idea to deal with this issue.  Between the Department of Health and the Public Service Commission there is still unacceptably long delays in appointing staff.  As far as I am concerned, I do not believe it is necessary for the process of interviewing and offer to take more than a month and I hope we can work towards this in the very near future.

This is because the situation in KwaZulu-Natal institutions is by no means favourable with 13,45% vacancies.  Almost 21% of medical officer posts are vacant, and 15% of nursing posts and 31% of professional posts.

This reflects a huge shortage in professional skills and a need to enhance human resources development, education and training in our tertiary institutions in the Province.  

There is also a high percentage of vacancies in the paramedical field, 24%.  In the technical field, 29%.  In spite of this I believe that a lot of groundwork has already been done to reverse the situation, including new salary packages, improving working conditions, stabilising management environment and improving communication.

As far as ghost employees are concerned, we have completed our audit to the extent of some 30% which is approximately 15 000 employees and is a lot more than the total amount of many other departments.  We are aiming at a target date of the end of May to complete this audit, but we also have determined that it will be done properly and accuracy is the most important factor.

As for severance packages, the Department will not be letting many people go, we are far too short staffed for that.  Those applications that have been approved have only been done after careful consideration and by taking into account things like health, closeness to retirement and whether the function could continue satisfactorily.  Also, in the process of amalgamation, certain duplications in some areas have occurred and this was also used as a factor.  

So far there have been 236 severance packages approved.  The cost of the 226 approved by December was in the region of R9,5 million.  Since then ten more have been approved but as these only come into effect from the end of this month, figures are therefore not available.  Of these one doctor, 116 nurses and seven other professional class packages have been granted.  

1 055 were not approved.  In total 2 278 applications have been received.  A full report on severance packages as of 12 May is in your documentation.

CUBAN DOCTORS

Part of the staffing problem has been addressed by the recruitment of 46 Cuban doctors.  The recruitment of Cubans caused a great deal of controversy and there was a considerable amount of negative publicity and unfavourable reactions.  It should be emphasised that the recruitment of Cubans via the National scheme in no way reflects a desire to replace South African doctors - the gaps are far too great for that.

The Cubans have proven to be of great value to this Province.  Part of this value is their willingness to work in remote areas such as hospitals like Ekombe, for instance, where babies are being delivered for the first time in many years because now we have got Cuban doctors who have been allocated to the hospital.

The Cuban recruitment cannot continue forever and it is essential that attention be given to training more South African doctors from rural and disadvantaged communities.  At present the training of doctors in this country does not reflect a demographic profile of the population.  We must ensure that when the Cubans return home we have our own South African doctors to replace them.  To do this we do not only need to concentrate on the professional education qualifications but also on instilling a desire to serve the needy in their own country first. 

Retention of skills is a priority and various strategies, including accelerated training and the review of subsidies to institutions that do not fully contribute to the availability of expertise, must be considered.  I ask why should we continue to subsidise the institutions that train people for overseas markets when this country does not benefit and has to go cap in hand begging for the same skills?

I would like to point out that at present of the 17 535 students in the Health Sciences in training in South African universities, 5 479 are African, 1 050 are Coloured, 2 699 are Indian and 8 307 are White.  At Stellenbosch, for instance, there are three African medical students in a class of 949 of which 830 are White.  I do not believe that in the new South Africa there should be any problem with these divisions but it must also work both ways and we must ensure that we train people who will stay here, work here and contribute to establishing a peaceful democracy.

FREE HEALTH CARE

I said earlier, I believe that there have been a great number of successes.  Perhaps the first has been the provision of free health care to the children under six and to pregnant women.  This was successfully implemented in KwaZulu-Natal in line with the National policy and we were the earliest with the implementation of free Primary Health Care of all the provinces, introducing this service almost four months before any other province.

I think that this was a great achievement by a province that has been severely disadvantaged by a history of under-funding and the figures for 1995/96 show that over 80 000 deliveries took place in terms of the free health services to pregnant women and almost a million consultations of antenatal clinic visits were recorded.  Free service consultation and attendances for children under the age of six amounted to 1,5 million.  The vast majority of these people certainly believe that there has been improvement in the health care delivery and the figures suggest that they were grossly neglected in the past.  A further indication of this is the fact that unbooked mothers reporting at hospitals has dropped by almost 70%.

TERMINATION OF PREGNANCY

I would like to come to the very thorny issue of termination of pregnancy.  This has obviously attracted a lot of attention, probably a lot more than warranted.  A total of 84 terminations had been done and recorded by the end of March and the average age of the women involved is 24 years.  Although 53 hospitals were gazetted for registration purposes only five are at present undertaking terminations.  This is a sensitive issue and the Department is approaching it with the necessary sensitivity, discretion and caution.  We would like to appeal for the spotlight to be taken off this issue and it has been counter-productive and, in some instances, the basic constitutional rights of our people are violated.

With regard to the issue of a circular sent out on guidelines of abortion, I would like to point out that the concerns raised by doctors were extensively answered in the media and this included four interviews and several newspaper articles.  It was pointed out that in particular the issue that has come out in the press, these were National health guidelines which were draft guidelines and which were distributed under a covering memo stating that these were draft guidelines.

Since the statement that has been quoted is open to misinterpretation and thus can also be misleading, we have asked the National Department that it should be withdrawn and these draft guidelines should be withdrawn until we have got a final protocol.  I must mention that these guidelines had actually come in as routine guidelines that were actually issued by the section on maternal and child and women's health from National office.  The kind of interpretation that has been given to the statement is of course regretted but because we are working on the final protocol we believe the situation would be best served by withdrawing those guidelines.

Ultimately, however, we will deliver the service in all regions and preferably at all major institutions and of course this, in some cases, would have distracted from the National Plan of Action for Children and many related child and maternal issues to which we have to give attention.



IMMUNISATION

Immunisation is also one such area.  The polio and measles campaign of 1996 was a success and we reached unexpectedly high numbers of more than 1,5 million polio and 150 000 measles immunisations taking place.  A similar campaign is underway at the moment and will run through May and June this year.  It is expected that the cost will be in the region of R3,5 million and just over 4 million doses of each will be given.

At this stage I would like to make an appeal.  It has come to our attention that a number of communities have been somewhat negative about this campaign because of the consent form that they have had to sign.  I want to indicate to them that we need to get their co-operation and assistance because the reason why they were given consent forms to sign, was really extending their democratic right.  It did not mean that there was any additional risks posed on their children.

I wish to put this one much more clearly because 

TRANSLATION:  There is something that is being said here, about there being some sort of a campaign that is on the go, to injure the people or to injure the nation, as the children are being injected or being given these drops to inoculate them.  I have heard that the people are confused and frightened when they get these letters that they are asked to sign.  These letters that are signed are documents granting permission by the parents so that the parents know that their children are being inoculated. 

It is not that there is any more poison or any more danger than there was last year.  It is only that it is now a new Government, and you have the right as a parent to know that your child is being inoculated, not that we are just going to inject your children without you knowing.  You must know that your children are being inoculated because we will meet them at school.  We are asking for support from our colleagues in this matter so that wherever we go there is support for this programme.

I also want to thank my colleagues that have given their support in this matter so that people are aware that there is nothing particularly unusual about this.  People must not be frightened and think because they are now being asked to sign that there is some danger.  No, there is no danger.  It is just inoculations against the usual sicknesses.  T/E

CLINIC BUILDING AND UPGRADING PROGRAMME

The launch of the Clinic Building and Upgrading Programme in 1994 was aimed towards working towards the National goal of putting Primary Health Care within the reach of every citizen of our land.  In a Province where the shortage of clinics is estimated to be in the region of 400 this was a daunting task but the fruits of the hard work already done are becoming increasingly evident.

This project has undoubtedly been the most successful Reconstruction Development Programme's financed project in the Province and the money was arranged in conjunction with the National Ministry of Health.

By the end of this year 2 470 new Government posts, and 2 519 temporary community jobs, 3 947 private sector job opportunities and 1 242 permanent community jobs would have been created.  

In total, the programme will have delivered 432 consulting rooms, 96 maternity beds, 130 mobile units and 417 bedrooms by the end of 1997.  In addition, there is housing, storage facilities and other items such as fencing.  Training given to local communities will involve 2 417 people and the population reached by this whole project is 2,6 million people who before had no access to health care or had very far to go before they reached such facilities.

These new facilities will see an average of 38 000 people per week.  In phases four and five, to be completed in 1997/98 financial year, a further 53 new clinics will be added and four will be replaced.  All in all 254 million will be spent on this programme by the end of 1998.  So successful has this project been that we have moved ahead of the process of staffing but in spite of this not one clinic stands unused.

THE NEW DURBAN ACADEMIC HOSPITAL

The construction of this 800 standard central bed and 46 specialised burn units bed New Durban Academic Hospital has begun and the unveiling of the cornerstone was done by the National Minister, Dr Zuma, in October 1996.  It is estimated that the building project will be completed by December 1999 at a cost of approximately R700 million.  Equipping will cost about R300 million and negotiations in this regard, especially with a view to receiving foreign assistance, are at an advanced stage.

The New Academic Hospital has, quite expectedly, overshadowed a number of other CAPITAL PROJECTS, not least being the fact that a new hospital, the Mahatma Gandhi Hospital at Phoenix, has been opened and is in the process of being commissioned in stages.  For 1996/97 capital works projects amounted to R474 million and in the 1997/98 year it will amount to R445 million.  This will involve some 250 projects.

A major task undertaken during the past year has been the reprioritisation of work programmes in line with the findings of the Health Facilities Audit.

DISTRICT HEALTH SYSTEM

As you all know, this Department has adopted the District Health System approach.  Various meetings and workshops have been held locally with National Health and local authorities, community and Departmental representatives with a view to establishing the District Health Authorities.  The aim is to get the powers and responsibilities for health care as close to the people as possible and will allow communities to have a meaningful role in the health care in their areas.  All Regional Directors have been appointed and a great deal of progress has already been made in this regard but the pace has not been rapid enough.

For this reason a concerted effort is being made to put this into place within the next eight months.  The annual report has detailed explanations of the plans and how we intend to do this and some of the challenges to be overcome.  

The basis of the system will be the clinics staffed by nurses as well as the employment of community health care workers.

HIV/AIDS

The HIV/AIDS programme has broken new ground this year by utilising the mainstream media for awareness and information campaigns.  There might be some arguments as to the value of advertising in this regard but it must be said from the start that the amount of editorial coverage achieved through utilising advertising has been enormous, several times the advertising cost.  Although quantifying the success of the media campaigns is not always easy, it should be noted that medical science, or anyone else for that matter, does not have an answer for AIDS.  Communication is the only weapon we have.  I might add that plans to utilise the private sector in assisting with health related campaigns are also at an advanced stage.

The seriousness of the AIDS threat to KwaZulu-Natal cannot be underestimated.  It is estimated that the prevalence of HIV positive adults in the population in 1996 was about 16% and will rise to 20% by the year 2000, with the total of new AIDS cases rising from 66 000 in 1996 to 157 000 in the year 2001 and 185 000 by the year 2006.  Many orphans will be created.  In KwaZulu-Natal, the number of AIDS orphans is projected to almost reach 200 000 by the year 2000 and about 750 000 by the year 2010.  The impact on the welfare services will be tremendous and my colleague has in fact highlighted that part as well.  It is also projected by the year 2010 about 20% of the economically active population will be HIV positive.  

The growth in HIV prevalence at King Edward antenatal clinics since monitoring began in 1989, when a nil figure was reported, was dramatic.  In 1989, when the first assessment was done at King Edward they could not find a single HIV positive person from mostly pregnant women who were attending.  From an infection rate of 1,61% in 1990 it has grown to 22,94 in 1996.  30% of the babies born to these mothers are HIV positive and many are likely to die within five years.

In terms of numbers, this translates into about a thousand babies per month.  In February this year 11 000 people tested positive and HIV prevalence amongst the mothers at King Edward VIII Hospital, was recorded as 28,47% according to the figures from the University of Natal's Institute of Virology.  

The thrust of our policy is to create awareness through community organisations as well as NGOs and to emphasise the importance of home-based care and home counselling.

TRANSLATION:  I want to say this, Mr Speaker, that there is a problem of people not believing that this sickness exists.  It is still very great indeed.  In my view, there is not a district where somebody has not been buried because of being killed by this disease.  I also think that there are very few families who do not have a family member who has this virus.  I am sure that that is what we would find if we were to conduct a proper survey.  T/E

PRIMARY SCHOOLS NUTRITION PROGRAMME

The Primary Schools Nutrition Programme is one of the several nutrition programmes but it is one that attracts the most media attention.  When it was launched three years ago it included 3 500 schools.  It was intended to be an ongoing sustainable scheme.  

This was not feasible mainly because of lack of capacity in communities to administer the scheme and there have been a number of problems whilst establishing this scheme.  What we have achieved is also considerable in that there are 1 080 schools  feeding some 500 000 children.  Within the next week or so 450 schools will be added to this and a further 400 should be funded by the end of this month.

Claims that the scheme owed suppliers R70 million has been proven to be incorrect.  An audit showed that there was R12 million in outstanding claims.  These were investigated and R6,5 million has been paid and the rest is also undergoing further scrutiny. 

Steps taken to rectify the problems encountered included the drafting of a new contract to simplify the arrangement between the schools and Department, the Tender Board approved a simplified tender procedure, decentralisation of staff to regions and a greater co-operation with the Department of Education.  In addition, external auditors worked to clear the backlog of claims by suppliers.  The Department, schools and suppliers are working on these problems on an ongoing basis.  

These remedial actions have had a positive effect and will ensure that the Primary School Nutrition Programme will become a regular and integral part of life at targeted schools.  An additional help will be the establishment of Statutory School Councils, as this will ensure the permanence and continuation in the administration and will also clear up various legal and contractual wrangles.

It is important that the programme achieves its aim which, right from the start, were to feed children so they could concentrate on their studies, to make the communities aware of the importance of good nutrition in promoting healthy lifestyles and empowering the communities so that they could eventually take over the scheme when the Government scales down its involvement.

It is very important to remember these goals as this is not a crisis project to alleviate a massive starvation problems and it will not be operated in this Province in any other way than on a capacity building and empowerment basis.

This is also the thrust of the community based integrated nutrition programmes.  These projects will be conducted in conjunction with other departments, including Agriculture, Welfare, Housing, Education, Works and others.  The projects being run will involve food security, nutrition surveillance as well as disease control and Health has approved an amount of about R4 million per health region to support these initiatives.  Three pilot projects have in fact been identified where the scheme is going to be financed and final allocations are actually going to be done in the next few months.

This is in line with the National policy on nutrition and is partly based on information gathered on a UNICEF sponsored trip to Tanzania where communities take charge of health projects and where health is used as an indicator for need for development.

MALARIA 

A massive outbreak of malaria in the northern area of KwaZulu-Natal in the first three months of 1996 and an upsurge again this year put a huge strain on our hospitals in Ingwavuma and Ubombo districts.

With up to 50 cases reporting and Manguzi and Mosvold hospitals per day, staff were hard pressed to provide treatment.  Although we have coped well enough the seasonal recurrence of this problem and the fact that its spread is increasing underlines the need for a co-operative South African campaign against malaria.  This becomes much more important in the light of what is being discussed as the Lubombo initiative or Maputo corridor.  Particularly with the emphasis on the tourism potential of that particular initiative.  

The total number of cases recorded was 10 535 and I believe compliments to our dedicated staff in those regions is warranted.  The Province is keen to participate in international regulatory malaria control for this reason, to include at least four Southern African countries, that is Swaziland, Mozambique, Zimbabwe and as well as three provinces, the Northern Province, Mpumalanga, KwaZulu-Natal.  We also believe that this effort should be centred around the facilities at Josini.  

From a peak of 120 cases per day in February and March this year, the cases have now dropped to about 24 per day reporting to our hospitals in the malaria areas.

TUBERCULOSIS

It is not only the increase of TB that gives rise to concern, but also the complicating problem is the emergence of the Multi-Drug Resistant TB and the high incidence of related TB and HIV infection.  KwaZulu-Natal has committed itself to the National goal of curing at least 85% of all newly diagnosed TB patients coughing up TB bacteria, by the year 2000.

To this end the Department is creating the necessary infrastructure to deal with the epidemic, starting with the appointment of a Provincial TB co-ordinator from 1 April.  New policy guidelines, based on international recommendations have also been published, and distributed, training workshops for health care workers are being conducted throughout the Province, and the DOTS strategy has been introduced and diagnostic facilities are being expanded and upgraded.

An experiment at King George V Hospital succeeded in capturing and cultivating TB organisms in ward situations and also found that the use of ultraviolet light contributed towards destroying organisms in the air, thus reducing the risk of cross-infection and making wards safer for staff.  This low cost research project has led to what people believe will be a breakthrough in TB treatment and has attracted worldwide attention.  The project was carried out in conjunction with the Medical Research Council, BKS Hatch Consulting Engineers, the University of Natal Medical School and Research Directorate of the Natal Department of Health.

HIGH TECHNOLOGY

High technology also continues to play a vital role in health care.  Whilst the focus has been Primary Health Care and making Primary Health Care more accessible to all the Province's citizens, we have done our level best not to lose sight of the high standards set by many of the Province's institutions.  In this regard, we have not neglected attempting to keep pace with the technological developments of the modern era.  

For instance, a new R6,5 million magnetic resonance scanner was installed at Durban's Wentworth Hospital and officially opened in October 1996.  In spite of its initial cost the scanner will ultimately save the Department a considerable amount of money and will allow outlying hospitals with CT scanners to link into the hospital and benefit from the knowledge and diagnostic skills of specialists located at Wentworth.

This will greatly improve the health care delivery service in that people in the more rural areas will have access to the vast experience and knowledge available in Durban and in this hospital.  This is indeed an example of how important it is to view the health care system in a holistic light and to understand that all aspects impinge on one another.  We are looking at a combination of decentralisation of institutions and institutional management as well as telemedicine in the light of the shortage of specialists in the Province.

An example of this is the plan to put CT scanners in place in Pietermaritzburg, Madadeni, Port Shepstone, R K Khan and Ngwelezana and have them linked telemetrically to Wentworth.  This will produce huge savings as, for instance, the S&T for staff travelling with patients from Newcastle alone amounts to about R1,8 million every year.  The miles travelled by vehicles from this area to and from Durban amounts to 17 times around the equator per year.

AMBULANCE AND EMERGENCY MEDICAL SERVICE

This is one of the most publicly visible aspects of the Department's activities, that is the Department's ambulance and emergency medical service, the only Provincial based service in South Africa, and whoever took that decision took a good decision.  KwaZulu-Natal has for long had its own emergency number which is 10177 and can be dialled from anywhere in the Province.

Responding, as we do, to almost half a million calls every year, it is hardly surprising that there is, from time to time, criticism.  In spite of this, AEMS does extremely well within the constraints.  Late last year the Head of the London Ambulance Service spent a shift with the AEMS crew at ~Umlazi~ near Durban and admitted that he had been amazed at what AEMS staff had accomplished on this single shift with the equipment they have.

This has also led to an invitation for staff of AEMS to enter in an exchange programme with the London Ambulance Services and this possibility is presently being investigated as is a similar programme with the Scottish Ambulance Service.

In addition, the AEMS swept the boards by taking all the prizes at a recent emergency rescue competition in Johannesburg.  This was at their first attempt and they were assessed by international judges.  We are hoping that a sponsor can be found for the team to represent South Africa in world championships in Canada. [You would have shown them that you too, KwaZulu-Natal, are not least].

Allegations of fraud reported by members by this House have been investigated and the report of the auditor, Price Waterhouse, into fraudulent claims and payments to the Kwa-Msane Ambulance Service involving R3,9 million has now been published and this is being referred to the Attorney-General and Auditor-General for further investigations.

COMMUNICATION

The channels of communications that have allowed KwaZulu-Natal to be relatively free of disruptive labour action in the Health sector in the past three years have continued to improve.

HEALTH ACTION

"Health Action", our Health magazine, continues to draw favourable comment.  A radio campaign on Radio Zulu was launched to inform people of the aims of the Department and in providing Primary Health Care to all its citizens.  There have also been radio campaigns on AIDS, malaria, TB and polio.  We believe these campaigns are critical to the success of the projects.

COMMISSION OF INQUIRY

This commission of inquiry into Health Institutions has conducted investigations at a number of institutions.  The main purpose of the Commission was to establish the reasons for the employee dissatisfaction and labour unrest at various institutions.  To this end the Commission has been highly successful but its investigations have taken us far beyond the scope of its initial brief.  In fact, the very establishment of the Commission probably prevented large scale labour disruption that was threatening at the time and as such, saved millions upon millions of Rands.

These findings made by an independent investigation provided a window into the system and its failings.  Being independent it has credibility and justifies action that is now coming to fruition.  Vehicles, offices and other resources have been made available to a unit of the South African Police Services which are investigating fraud and corruption.  It must be pointed out that Health is doing everything possible to facilitate arrests and prosecutions but after we have handed over the evidence it is of course up to the police and the Department of Justice to follow through and we have no control over that part.

There have been a great number of other benefits from the Commission.  A considerable amount of progress has been made with regard to improving communication at a number of institutions.  Considerable action has been taken towards devolving power to appropriate levels of decision-making and included in this is a recruitment policy for all entry level posts at various institutions.

The additional benefit of allowing people to give evidence in open sessions and in full public view has added credibility to the findings and also proved a cathartic effect, with many people being given an opportunity to air long standing grievances.  This has done a great deal to get rid of bitterness, suspicion and anger.

There is no doubt that the presence of the Commission has driven certain undesirable elements to ground and reduced fraudulent activities in the Department.  A full report on the activities of the Commission, on progress regarding disciplinary action and prosecution is included in the package.

I may as well add here that out of the reports that we gave last week we have had a member of staff who was actually assaulted, shot at.  Although fortunately she was not injured as such but eight arrests were made over the weekend and the investigation team is following several good leads regarding the shooting of this pharmacist from PMSC on Thursday.

I can also confirm that several cheques have been frozen since the announcement pending the investigation.  On Friday evening a man appeared in court on charges relating to R620 000, which was discovered last week and in fact two of them were arrested right in the bank and as we say in Zulu, [They were caught red-handed].

Before closing, I would like to refer to our Provincial Hospital in Scottburgh which is the C J Crookes Hospital that last year won the "Baby Friendly Hospital Initiative Award" which is an internationally recognised award for successful implementation of the Ten Steps to Successful Breast-feeding Programme devised by UNICEF.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is now the standard we want to set for all our hospitals.  In fact, we want to make the exceptional the average, we want to become the best health care service on this continent.

I have not mentioned every one of our components or areas of activity, but this does not make one activity any less important than the other.  They are all mentioned in the information package and details of our activities are comprehensive enough and I hope to give you as clear a picture as possible regarding the Department of Health.  In spite of the immense problems, I believe, that I can confidently say that KwaZulu-Natal Health Care is moving forward, things are happening, we are transforming and we are delivering.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Before I come to the closure, I also want to pay tribute to my colleagues in Cabinet for their support and assistance, to the members of the Portfolio Committee, particularly Dr L J T Mtalane, with whom we have got an excellent relationship in terms of supervising and interacting in relation to matters that relate to Health and making sure that there is a free flow of information between the Department and the Portfolio Committee.  I have to thank all the members because without their support the Department would not have been where it is.

Support of course does not mean that I do not get very quizzy questions from my friends across there, but I think all is done in the way of making sure that there is transparency, that there is a progress and that there is accountability.

I also wish to thank the staff from the Department of Health and I want to say to them that we have just begun, and a lot more work is still to come.  Therefore I would like to say that Health should be a priority and should be given special attention in spite of the financial constraints.

You will notice from the budget report that the bulk of the increases is attributable to the salaries in terms of increments.  If the figures are corrected you will actually see there is no increase in the staffing programme areas.  This reality will have to guide us in making the best use of the budget we have.  However, we still wish therefore to present the budget as tabled.

In future the FFC approach of granting global budgets for the provinces will open the way for the provinces to have more participation and practical input to budgeting and determination of priorities where funds must be allocated.  We must work hard to make sure that the negotiation we undertook to ensure that the correction of the KwaZulu-Natal under-funding of the past, will be maintained.

This is therefore necessary to ensure that we can meet our vision which is the vision of the Department of Health of KwaZulu-Natal and this is TO ACHIEVE OPTIMAL HEALTH STATUS FOR ALL PERSONS IN THE PROVINCE OF KWAZULU-NATAL.  I thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Dr Mkhize.  I now wish to call upon the hon chairperson of the Committee, Dr Mtalane to address the House for 25 minutes.

DR L J T MTALANE:  Thank you, Mr Chairman and the hon House.  I am speaking but I am a bit disturbed psychologically.  I have got a close relative who is dying from AIDS.

I wish to thank the Minister of Health, Dr Mkhize, for his informative report.  I wish to thank the members of the Health Portfolio Committee, the Department of Health officials and the Health Portfolio Committee Secretary, Miss Bash Gounden, for their responsibility and dedication to their work.  We thank all responsible staff in our health institutions, who toil for long hours on day and night duty, on public holidays and under dangerous conditions.

BUDGET

The decrease of the total Provincial budget is regretted.  One expected an increase of at least about 5%, considering the inflation rate.

PROGRAMMES

1.	The increase in administration slice is understood to be caused by the cost of the regionalisation.  The completion of the process is appreciated.

2.	Local Government versus Provincial salary scales is a matter of concern and the National Minister was asked to speed up the process of equalising these scales, on 12 May at the plenary session of the NCOP.

3.	Medical emergency services are very costly and we wonder why the Province cannot take over this function.

4.	The Academic Hospital budget.  We feel this budget should be extra to our budget.

5.	Training health services personnel.  We feel that more funds should be made available for this exercise.

The emphasis on building clinics that cannot be staffed is unacceptable to the Committee.  Community hopes are raised and when these clinics are built only for them to be used once or twice a month is very disturbing.  Why not provide the mobile clinic vans?

The training of doctors is our special concern including the paramedical staff.  The establishment of District Health Systems will remain a dream if there is no focus on training of personnel.  The 8 241 vacant posts according to the Minister is alarming, and this should be addressed.

HIV BUDGET

During the budget meeting between the Department, Health Portfolio and Finance Portfolio Committees, the Minister indicated that the HIV budget was included in the total budget.

The report read today contradicts that.  The Positive Outlook Volume 4 (1) reflects that Chess at Natal University was given R100 000 in April 1996 and later R29000.  This is also disturbing because in this magazine it says the Department lacks direction in this aspect of research.

FUNDING OF PRIVATE HOSPITALS

A formula for subsiding private hospitals need to be formulated soon to control Provincial funds.  I learnt from firsthand information that at times the private hospitals hide their income in their trust funds and keep on pleading for more money from the Province.

The capital and maintenance funding needs to be carefully handled to get the hospital's upgrading programmes ongoing.

HEALTH FACILITIES AUDIT

This has been one of the humanistic approaches to our health care delivery.  Both the National and Provincial Health Departments are commended for this.  Mr Conradie has been exceptionally proficient in this exercise.  The audit is to correct the inequalities of the past, whereby the hospitals were graded according to colour.  The images of our Black hospitals are changing and the communities are happy they voted.

.  [We voted.  You can see now that our hospitals are changing, and becoming beautiful.  Let us thank the name of the Lord].

Despite these budgetary problems, the Department felt it could cope.  We would like to thank the Minister and his Department officials for the difficult task of trying to uproot fraud, theft, absenteeism, and even restoring discipline, as reflected in the report that 45 members of staff were dealt with for refusing to obey instructions.  It is not an easy task but with your determination you shall achieve positive results.

I also wish to encourage you from experience.  I was a hospital nurse administrator for 17 years.  So I know how difficult it is to motivate people to do their work properly.

HEALTH PORTFOLIO PROGRESS REPORT 1996/97

The progress report for our Health Portfolio Committee has been tabled this morning.  That gives all members of this hon House our constructive and persistent monitoring, of the budget and personnel management.

Please note that Mrs O E Ford is a full member and ~Inkosi~ M B Mzimela has left this Legislature.

HEALTH CARE DELIVERY

I would like to focus on our health care delivery, and the perceptions our health consumers have, in view of what is delivered and the attitude of health service personnel.  In other words, I shall attempt to outline the image of the health service as seen by the ordinary person.

REGIONALISATION

The Health Ministry has done a good job in this respect.  There are responsible officials who can be held accountable, and to whom the health consumers could appeal to, for instance, when patients' meat was placed in the mortuary fridge in Region C, Mrs T S Mtshali, the Regional Director, was there to attend to the problem.

Regions have been costly to institute but worth the price.  Health, as other departments, has its own Regions.  We, as members of this Legislature made a proposal in 1995 that the Director General and Directors of all other departments review the possibility of forming similar regions.  The House saw the cost effectiveness of such an exercise but there has been no response from the DG, [We are asking, Mkhatshwa, what is happening on that side?]

DISTRICT HEALTH SYSTEMS (DHS)

This is seen as a positive attempt to redress the inequalities of the past.  The Districts are, however, too big to be managed properly.  Health wards were reasonable in size and manageable, although at times one felt they were big.  The District Health System will only be seen to further decentralise the health service, if perceived as a part of the socio-economic development exercise.  If they take the boundaries of the Local Government, then these must be done in close liaison between the Provincial and Local Government leaders.  It is wise to go steady in their development, as you state, Mr Minister.  Perhaps at the same time be focusing on your health service personnel training which is very minimal at the moment.

EDUCATING THE PUBLIC

CURRENT EVENTS

The Department of Health is excellent in this respect.  Radio health advertisements, health education on current health problems, AIDS, AIDS research, for instance those findings of Pretoria re Virodene 58 was so explicitly and timeously explained over the radio, by Dr Mkhize and we thank him for that.

VARIOUS HEALTH WEEKS

These have been proactive, informative and have enlightened our communities.  There are areas that still need more attention like speech therapy, audiology services, and rights of health care consumers.

HEALTH ADVERTISEMENTS

The radio and newspapers have greatly educated our people on health matters.  Advertisements of immunisation campaigns and positive follow-up, of appreciating community participation after the campaign, will improve the health status of our people.  On KZN 2 Nite, I realised the key to your success, Mr Minister, the media communication consultant Mr Fraser Mtshali.  We applaud him for the good work.  I think he is good because both his parents are registered nurses who also contributed to my training.

PRIMARY HEALTH CARE

This programme is firmly established and fully utilised by the community.  It has left the clinics' medicine shelves empty and jeopardised the image of our health service.  Health consumers have expressed concern about the free treatment as if it is of a lower grade or standard.  This was evident from the reports that came from your Health Regions, Mr Minister.  For instance, Nqutu a random sample of 50 clients, 47 said that the free service was valueless.  Most of our poor people are now struggling to get to private doctors.  The envisaged acquisition of cheaper treatment from abroad by Dr Dlamini-Zuma is already causing complaints.  What raises concerns again is that some ANC health professionals from exile say that, this free treatment saga is one cause of the downfall of health care standards in the African States, after their independence.  They say that the health services in most of these States have become impoverished through this free treatment, that they were at the end not even able to give patients a packet of Aspirins, even a single Aspirin.  Bayazi ngoba their health professionals. [They know because they are health professionals].

Whilst I understand why, but it means there is a grey area in that respect that the public must be educated why treatment is free.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

DR L J T MTALANE: 
TRANSLATION:  There is also this thing at times in these African states.  Perhaps this is an indication that the Government of the black people would see a lot of money that was left by the colonial Government, and then they would think what a lot of money, let us give freely.  Perhaps we now need cheap treatment, and then they realised that they were running short in this sphere.  We do not know.  T/E

ASSETS AND TRENDS IN ADMISSION PROCEDURES

ASSETS

The acquisition and re-allocation of specialised equipment in Regional Hospitals, shall save lives and humanise patient care.  Dr Mkhize, we are grateful.  Many people lost their lives due to time factor from injury point and Wentworth Hospital for scan, eg a patient would be transferred from Nongoma or Manguzi or Mosvold Hospital to Ngwelezanea at Empangeni and then to Wentworth.

ADMISSION PROCEDURES

One has observed that there is control in the admission of patients.  The chronic ill, for instance, are sent home.  At times complaints come up that patients who are chronic and present with an acute problem are also sent back home.  One day when I find a suitable case I shall report it to you, Mr Minister.  I always get these complaints after the incidents.

Expressions of doctors saying the "patient must go and die at home", at times assuming that the patient does not understand English needs to be corrected.  Controlled admissions have improved the overcrowding problem here and there and we are grateful for this process, if it is applied with humanity.

ABORTIONS AND EUTHANASIA

The Portfolio Committee was overtaken by the KZN Constitutional Committee in dealing with this Bill.  It was agreed that a referendum will be held in the Province.  All political parties were represented in the Constitutional Committee.  It was a National Bill after all.  The Committee looked at the implementation of this Abortion Act, at the various hospitals.

The Minister and the departmental officials assured us that there will be guidelines and orientation of staff to this new function. To my surprise for the last two weeks the public and different medical associations have complained to me as Chairperson of the Health Portfolio Committee about the guidelines from the Ministry of Health, which now speaks of "termination of pregnancy up to, (there is a query), nine months".  I am not sure because I have just received the guidelines here.  I have been asking for them, Mr Minister, for the last eight days.

The euthanasia guidelines are disturbing, which say that "babies born gasping for breath" should not be resuscitated.  I wish to invite you, Mr Minister, to our Health Portfolio Committee meeting on Wednesday, the day after tomorrow at 13:00 to discuss these guidelines that have been sent to hospitals.  I have been asking for a copy but at least I have got it now.

ATTITUDES HEALTH SERVICE PERSONNEL

The Committee has three times during the past year asked the Department as to what they were doing to improve health service personnel's negative attitudes.  Moonlighting and demotivation that was said to be causing negative attitudes, seem to have been addressed by improving salaries and awarding promotions, as cited in your report, Mr Minister.

Some of our hospitals are very clean and some are so dirty that you wonder if there is staff to do the cleaning.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR L J T MTALANE:  Some of our hospitals serviced by private companies are very clean, for instance Stanger Hospital.  This failure to clean the patient care service areas is closely associated with unionism.  I think whilst unions stand for the rights of employees, that they should instil a sense of responsibility and UBUNTU into their members, to also respect the rights of patients or clients at their workplace.

By the way, when we speak of clients in the health care we mean those people who come for promotive health, and they are not sick.   The sickly we refer to them as patients.  Where are the supervisors in these unhygienic institutions, Mr Minister?

There is no respect for hours of duty.  On payday it is worse.  Your staff, Mr Minister, are seen swarming all over in towns.  There is no respect and control for Government property, especially vehicles.

Three of the Health Regions stated that this free treatment at clinics, causes pressure of work on staff and said they simply dish out treatment.  There are cases where all members of the family come to the clinic and they are dished out with treatment and they build their own dispensaries at their homes, which is a big financial drain for the Government.

One Region said that auditors must see that equipment and other non-expendable items are in fact where they should be, and not in private homes. (Do not mind the perception of the function of the auditors).  The concern here is that there is transfer of Government property from hospitals to private homes. 

Almost all Regions complained about the increased pressure of work particularly on the nursing staff.  This is demoralising the pillars of your health care services.  Mr Minister, it will not be good if your nursing personnel is demoralised.

Yes, the Prince Mshiyeni Hospital problem has indeed taken too long.  That problem is between the ANC aligned NEHAWU and the IFP aligned Workers' Committee.  There have been episodes of unrest and the Health Portfolio Committee was asked to intervene, with short term positive results.  Our last intervention was in September 1995.  We have asked to visit the hospital with Department officials, with no success in 1996.

Catherine Booth Hospital is another area of concern.  The Minister and Portfolio Committee's intervention is at times short lived in this clash between the hospital NEHAWU and the mainly IFP community who are fighting [If the cap fits let us wear it concerning men].

Our greatest concern as a Committee is the expense incurred in hiring private security, during these unrest episodes.  How much has the Department paid for this private security, for instance, in Catherine Booth Hospital?

~apartheid~ attitudes of private farming doctors, especially in Region C area.  The hospital's administration still keep patients' files according to race, different service points and doctors refusing to see patients after hours.

It was in this Region C, Mr Minister, that the catering company stored the patients' meat in the mortuary fridge.  One wishes to applaud the female Regional Director, Mrs T S Mtshali, who was also my student nurse at King Edward VIII, who together with the community handled this matter very well.  They ensured that that meat was incinerated.  When the Committee visited Stanger Hospital, just here, we saw all top management being Muslims, except the matron.  One has learnt that Muslim patients get better quality treatment than Black patients.  Please, Mr Minister, let us rid our service of these racial attitudes.  Those are general images and perceptions that our public have about our hospitals.  Unfortunately even the good staff with UBUNTU get bound up with these bad ones.  One wishes to encourage the good one who know that liberation of the South African blacks from ~apartheid~ rule, spelt hope for all health consumers and they hoped to be even more acceptable in the health service.

The School Nutrition Programme is still a matter of concern and this was expressed to Dr Zuma, the Minister of Health, who admitted that it was a unsatisfactory arrangement.  Why was it implemented if it was unsatisfactory?  Was it for political gains at the expense of public money?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

DR L J T MTALANE:  At the official opening of the administrative offices and laboratory at Jozini, one heard for the first time that there was another nutrition project, a pilot project of R3,5 million.  Funds came from the National Minister of Health but the Provincial Department of Health is apparently controlling the project.  This project has also acquired something like R1,5 million from the Provincial Department of Economics.  This occasion turned to be an ANC event and what hurt most was to hear a community leader in that Maputoland Women's Nutrition project, quoting the name of the doctor who is a Department official and referring to him as "a third force" that was withholding the funds at some point.  Mr Minister, this trend has to be nipped off before it gets too far.  If this continues I will hang up my gloves.

CADAVERS AND POST-MORTEMS

Mr Minister, if it is correct that bodies are now donated, that is the greatest change of heart and culture, that I have heard.  The Blacks have been exploited in the past because of their ignorance.  Even if they pleaded they were to travel a long distance with the body, the doctor will refuse to sign the death certificate, just because he wanted to teach medical students and nursing students.  But there are bodies that are claimed, according to a report, after they have been donated or declared unclaimed.  What is the position here?  Mr Minister, I think you must investigate this.

For the 25 years I spent at King Edward, from the time I was a student nurse until I became a nurse tutor, until I left King Edward, I only saw hurtful practices in this field.  I never did see a post-mortem on an Indian patient nor did I see an Indian cadaver.  In that huge anatomy room, when we were doing a diploma in nursing in education, all the 30 bodies were of blacks.  Mr Minister, investigate whether this is done as stated in your report.  Check whether the ENT specialists have stopped stealing ear ossicles from the bodies in the mortuary.

TRADITIONAL HEALERS

We are grateful that the traditional healers are being assisted to control themselves.  The Committee shall diligently carry out the public hearings in the first week of June.

MONITORING PRIVATE PRACTICE

These private practices have always worried me, Mr Minister.  They are often near bus ranks that are mainly used by Black people.  These doctors have a similar attitude of giving injections to our people.  That is very exciting to our people because they believe in injections.  Daily vitamin B Co and bicillin injections are drawn up early in the morning in 10ml syringes and lined up there and covered.  How does the doctor know how many patients or clients are going to come, who require the bicillin and vitamin B Co?  Let alone some of these doctors behave like Sangomas and sort of tell their findings using the Dr Mkhize.  [Using the tail obhubezi Dr Mkhize].  They give tonics in 750ml bottles and all their doings are sort of dramatised in Zulu fashion.  Is there a way of curbing this exploitation?

MUSHROOMING OF PRIVATE HOSPITALS

One wonders whether this is a way of avoiding white patients being mixed with Black patients, because even in places where there are hospitals nearby, there are people that are phoning me and asking for ways of how they can get around the Minister to allow them to build private hospitals.  How do you see this, Mr Minister, this development versus the shortage of professional health service personnel?

ENVIRONMENTAL HEALTH

The evaluation of 949 farms is a very positive development in the community here.  The residences of farm workers have been known to be very unhygienic.  This positive move by your Department, Mr Minister, that they inspect this and evaluate them will greatly improve UBUNTU, that is emerging in this industry, I mean the farming industry, and where it existed shall be further strengthened.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes.

DR L J T MTALANE:  In conclusion, the District based, community directed and family-based health care is appreciated.  The area of our great concern is the spread of AIDS.  Your Department's targeting of the young people for intensive health education and broader approach to the public and community support groups is indeed a step in the right direction.  It is basically our attitudes as health consumers that must change to raise the health knowledge and responsibility for our health system.  You have energetic staff that seem dedicated to render the service with loyalty and UBUNTU.  Keeping that in mind, the Health Portfolio Committee shall be there to support you, Mr Minister.  This budget vote is supported and on that supportive note, I thank you, Mr Minister, Mr Chairman and the hon House.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Dr Mtalane.  I now wish to call upon Advocate Madondo who will address the House for 12 minutes.

ADV M I MADONDO:  Thank you, Mr Chairman and hon members.  Firstly, I would like to congratulate the Minister of Health and his Ministry on their successes, in providing free health care to children under six years and to pregnant women, and in effectively putting Primary Health Care within the reach of every citizen in this Province.  By building and upgrading clinics, particularly in the rural areas, even though some irresponsible people have taken advantage of the free health care, by frequenting the clinics until they have a dispensary of their own.

PRIMARY NUTRITION SCHEME

I will move on to the primary nutrition scheme.  The primary nutrition scheme is the most wonderful nutrition scheme which has ever been invented in this country, to cater for the indigent and destitute children in the schools.  We are grateful to the ANC-led Government of National Unity for inventing such a good scheme with a view to helping the poorest of the poor.

Too many South Africans are poor, underpaid, homeless and their basic needs and requirements are not satisfied by the economy.  Ten out of every hundred African children die in infancy, five of them from easily preventable conditions.  Of the children who reach the age of five more than half suffer from stunted growth, because of inadequate nutrition.  Among those who manage to enter schools only one out of seven reach Std 10, after many years of repetition.  Of adults, fewer than half work in the formal economy.  For those who become parents, the maternal mortality rate is 70 times higher than in any other racial group.

These inequalities are not accidental, they are a natural outcome of the low wage policies, followed by the private sector and the deliberate policies of the old State to underspend on social services for the black people.

Our country's "economic miracle" of the past has been based on the low wages and migrant labour system imposed with brutal force on black people.  The rural African people who make up the vast majority of the poor, face a number of specific barriers that prevent them from increasing their economic productivity.

I am now pleased to note that our black political parties are no longer closing their eyes to the realities of life.  This was quite evident by the motions debated in this House on violence and unemployment, which are escalating at an alarming rate in this Province.  That is what the people out there are expecting from this democratically elected Government, not constant bickering and political wrangling which do not benefit anybody.  The primary nutrition scheme is therefore essential.

However, Mr Chairman, for the benefit of the Ministry and the beneficiaries of the primary nutrition scheme we should look more critically at the implementation and administration of the primary nutrition programmes.  

In practice, the implementation and administration of the primary nutrition programme is beset with a few major problems like fraud coupled with corruption, mishandling and mismanagement of funds by a person charged with the implementation and administration of the nutrition programmes.

In some cases persons charged with the implementation of the nutrition programmes, collude with some business people to appropriate monies to themselves.  In some instances, people who benefit the most from the scheme are not the intended people but persons who are running the nutrition scheme.  At times, the food purchased for the purpose of the programme is sold to members of the public, and the proceeds thereof is pocketed at the expense of the indigent and destitute people.

It is heart-rending at times to note that some of the people who embezzle or appropriate the funds for the nutrition programme to themselves, do not do that purely for the love of money but with deliberate political intent to portray the nutrition scheme invented by the ANC-led Government as a failure.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

ADV M I MADONDO: 

TRANSLATION:  Chairman, we often hear people asking where are the houses, where are the jobs that were promised by the ANC at the time when it was electioneering in 1994.

They forget that the people know that of all the Ministers that we have, who are ANC Ministers, there is not one who is in charge of the Department of Housing, and who it was who received the most votes in this Province.  On top of that, it is not only the ANC who has a burden of meeting voters' needs, but all the political parties that form part of this Government.

Those that are blocking the things from getting to the communities, because of political reasons, history will judge them harshly in future.  Even now people are saying that the Government has passed a law to finish off the old people.  All that is not the truth.  These are attempts to bring down this Government.  T/E

We often hear the cries for more powers and funds from the Central Government, only to find that the existing powers and funds are not utilised to the fullest.  We must learn to utilise the powers and the resources available to us before complaining.

RECOMMENDATIONS

Lastly, recommendations.  In order to ensure the sustainability of the primary nutrition scheme, co-ordinated and integrated approach to the implementation and administration of the nutrition programme, committees and persons dealing with the scheme should receive some form of training.  There must be some clear guidelines as to the type of food to be served at schools.

Further, in order to ensure that the objectives of the nutrition scheme are achieved, there must be a follow-up and constant supervision and monitoring of the programmes.  There must be an effective control mechanism in place.  I urge the Ministry to provide more household food security projects and to empower the womenfolk to commence and to run the nutrition programmes effectively and efficiently.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Advocate Madondo.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Edwards to address the House for seven minutes.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  The hon Minister and officials of the Department of Health, I think, need to be complimented on the annual report of the Department, and the Minister's budget speech which contains a wealth of information.  Excuse my voice but you will have to put up with it.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR B V EDWARDS:  Also to be complimented is the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee, Dr Mtalane, on the progress report she presented.  At first sight it does appear that the budget allocation for 1997/98 of R3,7 billion, excluding Works, is an increase of 21% on the budget for 1996/97.

This is not so, however, and if one looks at the improvements to conditions of service of R452 million and additional funds provided for Works of R40 million and exclude these, the adjusted budget reflects, in fact, an R18,4 million or 1% decrease.

Members are well aware of the financial constraints placed on this Province in what is in effect a cut in the total Provincial budget of some 8%.

My greatest concern is that the budget before us relates to personnel.  As it relates to personnel the policy and rationale behind it is providing better services with inadequate staffing.  A wider and wider range of health care services are envisaged and quite rightly, in particular primary health care with the addition of the district health system including 168 projects on the clinic upgrading and building programme.

Admittedly the bulk of the cost of the clinic programme was from RDP funding and perhaps we had to grab the crumbs while these were available, but we cannot at the moment staff these properly, if at all, and the Minister needs to convince me to the contrary, I must say.

Personnel in virtually every category in the establishment of 59 000, gives me great cause for concern.  Let us look at the nursing staff.  First, I believe that the nursing profession, student nurses and professionals are dedicated women and men.  They are owed a great debt of gratitude by the people of KwaZulu-Natal for the incredible devotion to duty shown over the past number of years, while the staffing position in our hospitals and clinics has been in a state of crisis.

Nursing staff of some 28 000 out of a total of 59 000 post establishments or nearly 50%, and the majority are in the middle to lower category of remuneration.  Staff vacancies are at present calculated at some 8 600 of which 4 000 are nurses or some 17% are vacant posts.

In addition we have a shortfall of over 400 medical officers or some 20%.  This staff shortage must be equated to the rapidly expanding demand for health services and increased patient numbers, particularly in out-patients, where the average monthly head count has risen dramatically.  That is given in a statistical report which does need some explanation.

The executive summary handed out today gives a host of statistics.  It will need more than one turn of the egg timer to study the real implications, which at first glance show a rapidly rising demand for health services in every discipline.

I find it incredible, however, and my first thought is how incredibly stupid, that the budget provides even less funding for nursing training.  An R11,7 million reduction or 13%.  We are already desperately short of nursing staff.

If it were not for the nurses of our Province, our health services would have totally collapsed and now we dare demand even more blood, sweat and tears in the future.  We are playing with fire and this injustice inclines me to vote against the budget presented, as we have been advised that the reduction will result in fewer nurses being trained in future.

Here in Pietermaritzburg our clinics and hospitals are stretched to the limit.  Shortages in medical and nursing staff, lack of capacity in the administration resulting in many hours of overtime work, the staff are at breaking point.  Indeed many have broken down and have left the service with medical doctors leaving the Province and other staff taking early retirement.  Perhaps this is true of many urban centres.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR B V EDWARDS:  Please, please.  We have been fortunate indeed that hospitals have been undeniably saved from collapse through the dedicated assistance of visiting physicians.  We owe them a debt of gratitude.  But due to the chaotic state of staffing not assisted by under-qualified Cuban doctors, certain practitioners have found their situation to be intolerable.

A well respected practice of specialist physicians was recently forced to put on record, and I have a copy of the letter, that:

	Because of the unacceptable state of staffing at local hospitals they feel they are no longer prepared to assist on legal, moral or ethical grounds.

What a tragic state of affairs.  While I know that the hon Minister and the Director General are doing what they can to resolve this situation, I do not believe that the right course is being followed.  

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR B V EDWARDS:  We cannot afford to chase away locally trained doctors because of poor pay and poor working conditions, and then replace them with under-qualified Cuban doctors, and a further 200 Cuban doctors are on their way, bringing the total in South Africa to 500 and 49 already in KwaZulu-Natal.

I am told that the doctors are dedicated, these Cubans, and are hard working but are just not qualified.  I get this information from medical practitioners and nursing staff.  A nursing sister recently phoned me to relate a remarkable story.  She had just seen that day, a tonsillectomy done through the side of the neck, performed by a Cuban doctor not having an anaesthetist to assist.

This sort of practice was last seen some 40 years ago and certainly opens the Province to many claims for negligence and malpractice.  We are now in a state of trauma, and something very urgent needs to be done to save the patient.

Long overdue appointments of medical superintendents is awaited.  I am pleased that the endemic state of fraud and corruption in the Department is being addressed.  We thank the Minister and the Department for that.  The real problem is a total lack of administrative capacity.

Questions arise on the operation controls in completion of the personnel audit in full.  30% is like being 30% pregnant.  We have to do the job properly.  Emergency medical services especially the abuse of ambulance services.  The MEDVAS trading where the Finance Committee was advised that with improved controls considerable savings are being made in the purchase of medical supplies.  What losses were incurred in the past?  We are told over R300 000 per month is possibly lost.

While I may have been critical on certain issues, I wish to assure the hon Minister he has my full support in the many procedures being followed, in an attempt to cure the patient.  He certainly is doing his damnedest to make sure that this Province works and its medical services will be the best in South Africa.  We thank him for that.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MR B V EDWARDS:  With that I support the budget.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Dingila to address the House for ten minutes.

MR F T DINGILA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I would like to commend the Minister on his well prepared speech.  I feel because of his age and his profession, seemingly, he had to prepare a good speech.

However, sir, I must mention that your Department has a big problem.  The problem is the carrying out of instructions as tabulated from above, meaning from the National Government.  Why do I say this, sir?

1.	I believe you were instructed to feed the school children, as you have mentioned in your speech.  Unfortunately you were given this instruction after the project which was called NNSDP, from the same Department, had dismally failed.

	I must mention this.  I was strongly involved in this project, mostly at Ndwedwe.  We were allocated a budget of about R4 million.  Out of that R4 million we accounted for each and every cent that was allocated to the area.  On our advance we were only given R2,5 million which we accounted for.  The balance of that allocation has never been given, until today.  Each time we went to PNSP, there was a lady, Tina Botha, who then left and then Shereen van der Merwe became the director there.  We visited her on several occasions, speaking the same language.  On one occasion they came to Ndwedwe and said, "Hey, you have done a fantastic job.  We would like to take Ndwedwe as a pilot project, because you have done a good job there.  You have got all the posts there so definitely you should move forward with this", but in vain.  Only to find that whenever we went there they kept on passing the buck.  Eventually nothing came out.

2.	You were also to supply medicine, gratis to various clinics.  That was a hard target to achieve without proper planning.  Until now it has not happened.  In the rural areas clinics have absolutely no medicines.

	Nevertheless, I am not blaming you.  It is because of the instructions from above.  You, Minister, as the person I know, and I believe you are a man of good integrity, you could not have failed to do the job as you have correctly written in this good speech here, well prepared, but partly to cover for the Government.  That is all you have been doing unfortunately, Mr Minister, because if you were talking facts as they are, you could have mentioned to us that there is no medicine in clinics.


TRANSLATION:  Our father even went so far as to explain by saying it is a belief that is talked about, that the truth that you put forward that I heard well was that, Your Honour, what the people are saying is not the truth.  That is how you put it.

The truth is, Your Honour, oh, I want to apologise, Your Honour, to the hon Minister, one of the other speakers who has already spoken said so.  The truth of the matter is that what the people say, they are saying from their positions which are not high positions.  They are in a position to see things as they are really happening, whereas the people that are here they speak theoretically, and they speak very well, whereas practically it does not happen in the areas where they come from.  That is what causes the problem.  T/E

, your Department has an ambulance problem as well.  Patients must be transported by paid private companies, yet the clinics have insufficient doctors.  I should not even say insufficient doctors, there are absolutely no doctors.  In Ndwedwe we have got one district surgeon, who only comes about once a week, only on Thursdays.  Yet the Department of Welfare and Pensions has got people who must apply for their pensions through this district surgeon.  He is not available and we have not even got a single doctor in the whole district of Ndwedwe.

[Sir, it is sad to say this, but it is true].

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR F T DINGILA:  I may even go further on this one. TRANSLATION:  I know, sir, that because of your intellect, if you had been given the authority to employ doctors in your own right, you would have employed local doctors.  I have seen here at Phoenix, and at Newlands West, there are a lot of doctors that are there.  But, sir, because it was not you who employed the doctors, doctors were brought here for you.

What is very sad is that these doctors that are brought here, they come here and take our beautiful women from here, and then when their jobs are finished then they do not want to go back, and then they say they are going to be killed.  That is sad, because if it were doctors from here they would have married our beautiful women that are here, and they would not have been afraid because they are in their own country.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please!

MR F T DINGILA:

TRANSLATION:  You, of your own accord, sir, when it comes to R14 million for AIDS, sir, you would have spent it properly and very nicely if you had been given the authority to spend it yourself here, because you know the needs as you have enumerated them so well.  That is the needs of the people that are suffering from AIDS.  You would have spent the money as it should have been spent where it was needed, as you even went to the extent of giving us figures of people suffering from AIDS.

Because you did not have the authority, what I am asking from all of us here is that we must speak to the Ministers, and say let there be a devolution of power, and that the power must be brought here to you, Doctor, our doctor, because I can see that you are clever.  If this House were to agree that the power should be devolved down to you for you to use, this R15 million you would have used it wisely and you would have satisfied the people properly.  T/E

However, I have been greatly impressed, Mr Minister, by your determination and positive closing note.  Your vision and ambitions can only be met if the Central Government stops dictating and gives the power to the provinces.

I would also like to recite your vision as my closing note, but before that please, Mr Minister, our clinics have no medicine, as I have indicated.  Pensioners have no district surgeons as indicated.

Sir, whether it is proximity I am not sure, whether it is because of our proximity to Durban that makes most of the officials turn a blind eye to Ndwedwe district.  Maybe it is because nearer the church further from God.  Nevertheless, we still stay together with you, Mr Minister, to achieve optimal health status for all persons in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  I do appreciate that vision you have, Minister.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Next on the list of speakers will be the hon member Mr Dlamini who will speak for 14 minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you, Chairperson.  Chairperson, I am not going to respond to the last hon speaker because I know the Minister is going to do that very adequately.

It is my pleasure though once again to participate in the debate of a Ministry that has had a record of transforming South Africa both at Provincial and National level.  I would like to stress from the word go that I associate myself fully with this transformation.  The typical nature of transformation is that whilst the consumers of services welcome the process, and wish for a speedy change, those who have benefitted from the health system of the erstwhile Government have lots of criticism about the transformation process.

Allow me, Mr Chairman, to focus on the Legislative transformation and the implication to the budget.  I promise I am not going to talk figures, but the reason why I would like to focus on legislation or Legislative change is to draw the awareness of your House to some of the changes that are going to have a heavy implication on the budgets now and in the future.

These following two Bills, although not yet scheduled for plenary require our attention, because of the implications mentioned earlier on, and also it is the Bills that have already been discussed at NCOP level through the briefings.

The first one is the Medicines and Related Substances Control Bill, B30 of 1997.  This Bill, amongst other things, seeks to prohibit sampling of medicines aimed at influencing the prescription of certain medicines.  It further proposes a code of ethics relating to the marketing policies.

The Bill provides strict conditions for the sale of Schedule 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 substances to ensure greater safety to the consumers and better quality as well.  This is in line with ensuring a healthy nation.

The Bill will also improve strict control on dispensing of medicines which will be subject to the conditions of a licence.  I think anybody with the interest of the people of South Africa at heart will agree that this will be an attempt to curb the proliferation of all kinds of drugs in this country.

The Bill encourages generic substitution.  Manufacturers of generically equivalent medicines are able to produce high quality medicines at a much lower cost than the innovator counterparts.  This results in low prices for the user.  Medicines in South Africa are extremely expensive.  Examples have been quoted of drugs costing about R50,00 in Australia, when South Africans pay about R150,00 for the same medicine.

This militates against the development of an affordable health care system in South Africa, which is one of the primary objectives of the Government led by the African National Congress.

The second Bill to be dealt with in terms of section 76 of the Constitution is the Medical, Dental and Supplementary Health Service Professions Amendment Bill.  This Bill purports to provide for the establishment of health professions and councils, boards and provide for training, registration and practices of health professionals.

This Bill has been a subject of great controversy of late, particularly for young doctors and medical students.  It should be noted that training a medical student costs this country a fortune.  Whilst this is a State contribution towards its human resource development there is also an expectation that developed human resources will plough back to their communities what they have acquired in terms of skills.

The brain-drain of doctors and engineers has left this country all the poorer.  It is therefore essential to apply restrictive measures against brain-drain where possible, enforcing a specified period of service by young doctors can only add value to the National health system.

Another issue that may become controversial, as the Bill goes to the plenary, is the provision made for Provincial representation, and that persons who are not health professionals will be members of the new council.  This representation will ensure participation in decision making of the council by people representing the consumers of the service.

The third Bill that I want to make a remark or two on is the Pharmacy Amendment Bill.  This is a section 75 Bill.  In order to comply with the principles of consultation, transparency and participation, this Bill makes provision for Provincial representation once again in the council.  It also ensures that members of the public who are non-pharmacists are represented.  The Bill introduces a novel dimension that non-pharmacists can own pharmacies with a proviso that these operate under continuous personal supervision of a pharmacist.

In my opening remarks I alluded to the record of transformation of the South African health system.  I would like to make concrete comments in this regard on policy proposals contained in the White paper for the transformation of the health system of South Africa.

The White Paper gives a very clear common vision based on the RDP principles.  The following are some of the essential features of the policy proposals, namely:

-	The promotion of equity, and that is development of a unified health system
-	Districts as major locus of implementation with emphasis on primary health care.
-	Promotion of common goals by Government, NGOs and the private sector
-	Stress the complimentary role of National, Provincial and district levels
-	Address nutrition and hunger
-	Communication, advocacy and legislation on breast-feeding
-	Developing a code for marketing breast milk substitutes
-	Review all legislation relevant to nutrition
-	Accessibility of maternal, child, adolescents and women's health services
-	Ensure efficient, cost effective and good quality maternal, child and women health services

Chapter 14 of the White Paper is going to introduce drastic changes in norms and standards for a safe and healthy working environment in our country.  Amongst other things, it will focus on the effects of chemicals, physical agents, ergonomic and psychological hazards, as well as attending to the fragmented insufficiently co-ordinated 24 pieces of legislation pertaining to health issues in this country.  This is the kind of transformation that our Provincial Health Ministry is going to play a significant role in.

With those few words I fully support the budget on Health and also congratulate our Minister for a wonderful presentation that he has made this afternoon.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Burrows who will address the House for six minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Chair.  I too would like to compliment the Minister on a very full budget speech, and on the report of the Department, on which I will have a comment or two to make in a moment.

I have just had a quick look at the executive summary of health statistics and I think that they will prove extremely valuable when we have had time to study them.  I must note, however, that it is to my mind unfortunate that, and if I might quote:

	The statistics from October to December 1996 have decreased due to the non-submission of returns by Edendale Hospital, King George V Hospital and Nseleni.

It just seems to me incomprehensible that one can draft statistics for a department and allow three hospitals in fact to skew the statistics.  That is in fact what has happened.

I would like to just devote some time to the Primary School Nutrition Programme, on which other members have made a remark, as did the hon the Minister in his budget speech.  As far as I can see, and I speak under correction having gone through the report a couple of times, there is not a single word on the Primary Schools Nutrition Programme in the annual report.  Not one word.

There is in the Minister's speech, in which he commented on some of the difficulties that had been created.  But I have some problems because, like a number of other departments in this Province, in that particular area extracting information has been like drawing teeth, very difficult and with a lot of pain.

Let me give you an example.  I cited in another department's report, that we appear in this Province to be the lowest of all nine provinces in the expenditure in that programme during the past year.  Some over R103 million, if I remember correctly, was not expended from last year's budget.  We asked this year for another R112 million to be carried forward, and I hope and sincerely pray that it will be used effectively.  We need to have some explanation about that and it needs to be done in a written form.

I say that I hope the money will be correctly spent this year.  I think here the Department needs to be complimented on the work it has done, and the Department of Education be criticised for the work it has not done.  Quite frankly, the delivery system flows from the Department of Education, whereas the funding system comes from the Department of Health.

We have at the present moment elections commencing for school governing bodies, for the 5 341 public schools in this Province.  All those elections to new governing bodies have to be finalised by September of this year.  We are going to have fully elected bodies at all public schools, with regulations setting out how to control school funds, how to regulate them and so on.  I hope that that process will allow us to also investigate what happened to the money that was previously sent into schools.

I heard the hon member, on my left say that R4 million had been received and every cent accounted for.  I want to assure him in the subcommittee on the Primary Schools Nutrition Programme we are aware of many, many, many millions that went into the schools that was never accounted for, and we need to ask questions about that.

Let me say whilst on the subject of schools, and I know it is a fairly sensitive area.  I sometimes think that the organisations that the Health Department in its preventive programmes is least effective as against the departments of the Province.  Let me give you two examples.

There has been a survey now done of all the public schools in the Province.  550 schools have been found to be without toilets.  It seems to me, and I speak under correction, that that is precisely the kind of area where the Department of Health actually goes to the Cabinet and says, "Unless you provide toilets within three or six months we are going to close the schools down", and then something will be done.  Because if you do not do it I want to tell you nobody else is going to do it.  1 900 schools are without water.  Again it is a question where health can take a guiding line.

Let me refer to another one, and that is not in the education sector as such, but still in the public sector.  How can we have headlines in newspapers saying that the stream running through Cato Manner, the Cato Crest stream, is an open sewer and it is a health time bomb waiting to explode.  Again it is a matter where the Department of Health must go to the Durban Metro and say, "Unless you guys do something we are going to take you to court for not enforcing at least some basic health conditions, that have a threat to health in the Province as a whole".

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

MR R M BURROWS:  I am simply saying it is not enough that Nkosazana Zuma can take a fight against for example the tobacco sector.  I think she is absolutely right there.  I do not think we should be smoking but we need also to say to Government departments, "You too have a responsibility for health".

AN HON MEMBER:  What do you know?

MR R M BURROWS:  I was agreeing with her.  How about that.  I will speak to Mr Ellis as well if you like.  The second area I would just like to ask the Minister to comment on when he replies, is the question of Provincial legislation on health matters.

There is the KZN Health Enabling Bill that came before the Committee.  We looked at it, and we said put it to one side until something happens nationally, but we have never been reported back to on what is actually happening in legislative amendments to health in this Province.

Finally, I would like to say that I am extremely pleased to see the very, very comprehensive coverage given in the statistics backing up the Minister's speech against corruption in which clear guidelines are set.  Names are named of people who were offending in terms of fraud and corruption because if there is any Department that needs to be absolutely certain that every Rand it is getting is spent to maintain and establish the health of this Province, it is this Department.  Thank you, Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  At this point I wish to hand over to Mr Dlamini to take the chair.

MR T S MOHLOMO LEAVES THE CHAIR
MR F DLAMIMI TAKES THE CHAIR

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Our next speaker to address the House is the hon Mrs Mkhize.  You have 11 minutes.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I will, first of all, highly commend the hon Minister of Health, and his Department for the outstanding manner in which they have presented the activities that take place in their Department.  I have also realised that the Minister, Dr Mkhize, is a very scientific man who believes in experimenting so that people can see what they talk about.  Anyway, if health is in good hands I feel all departments will have less problems.

The hon Minister is presenting his speech during a crucial period where there is this decline in the economy, and emerging new diseases in our country.  This is even demanding more efficiency, more hard work and higher health standards.

AN HON MEMBER:  And more Sarafina.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  Even more Sarafinas will be required.  The statistics that are shown of the building of clinics that has taken place is quite encouraging.  It is also encouraging that these clinics have been erected in our areas where there has been so much neglect.  Previously neglected areas in the rural areas.

What I would really advise is that these clinics be erected in different areas, so that there is no area which has more clinics and others have less.  I do appreciate the fact that even in my area, in the bundu, there in Newcastle, I have seen the hon Minister going to open a clinic.

On the free health care, I would really say this comes with a positive and a negative effect.  The positive effect is that a person who is indigent and has no funds whatsoever will be treated, especially a pregnant woman with her child in her womb.

AN HON MEMBER:  Point of order, Chairperson.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let us listen to the point of order.

AN HON MEMBER:  The Minister Zulu is not allowed to read the paper when the member is speaking.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Point taken.  Will you continue, Mrs Mkhize.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Point of order on that point, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let us take the point of order.

MR A RAJBANSI:  If the member is reading something of relevance to the debate that is parliamentary.  [LAUGHTER]

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  Right, right.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Please continue.

AN HON MEMBER:  Mr Chairman, I rise to support the member.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I think the House is beginning to do what is typical of people who are getting bored.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  , it is true.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  But let us hope we will conclude this debate this afternoon.  Please give her a hearing.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  I was speaking on the free health care.  I was saying it has a positive and a negative impact.  The negative part is that the people who render this care for free, their morale is jeopardised.  You find that the nurses who have to care for these patients, who come for free, really feel as if they are doing nothing.  In fact there is no boost of morale.  Even the people who get these medicines do not value these medicines, because they feel it may be just something that has been just thrown at them.

No, it is a psychological something.  It is a psychological feeling.  You may not point at it but it is there in the person's mind.  For instance, even these pills for prevention.  People though thinking they were suffering from side effects because they were given these pills for free, and they went to doctors and bought the same pills very expensively.

Another issue which is of vital importance is this.  The clinics for termination of pregnancy.  This issue need not be discussed here because there is nothing more is to be discussed.  It is a law.  At the same time the figures that the Minister has shown, shows so clearly the negativism that the people have got on the issue.

I highly appreciate the manner in which the Minister has said this issue has to be taken quite sensitively, and using people's opinions.  I feel this issue has been pushed down people's throats.  There was no discussion and there was no proper mandate from the people on this issue.  All the same, I have just read that out of the 53 clinics that had been mandated to perform these terminations of pregnancy, only five are now doing this job.  I have just narrated that about 84 pregnancies have been terminated.  For me as a mother I feel about 84 children have died in our Province.

Primary School Nutrition Services is becoming more essential in our communities because of the financial decline and health problems.  I feel that has been the worst thing to happen.  Due to the mismanagement and fraudulent activities, a very good service that was supposed to be given to our starving children now had to be stopped for some time and revisited.  While this is taking place the children are suffering.

I was once a school nurse and I know that a child who has woken up in the morning and goes to school without having eaten cannot  concentrate in the class.  So I would say even if it is not policy, that even if this is revived it must go even further and include the pre-primary schools and creches, so that our children are well catered for while they grow, so that they will be healthy as they grow.

I must say that I am very unfortunate because people come to me and ask questions for which I have no answers.  For instance, I went to Durban and I fell ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member is left with two minutes.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  In fact I visited a doctor and he said, he saw this and said, "You are in Parliament.  Now tell me, I am a doctor, why do you people hate us?", and he said, "You do not want us to dispense medicines".  These were the questions.  He said, "I have got two sons now who are about to finish their course in medicine, and when they get out I have got to bail them out.  I have only been practising for six years and I am still paying.  I have got to bail my two sons out from your Government.  Now why do you want to extend our period of training.  Why do you seem to not want to improve facilities for us doctors from here but rather go out and fetch other doctors?"  Those were the questions that needed answers.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  That was just unfortunate.  I told him I was not the one that was responsible for all those laws.  Anyway, Mr Chairman, in closing I would really say I highly appreciate the manner in which the Ministry of Health is working together with the Department and the Portfolio Committee.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Your time is up, hon member.

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Our next speaker is the hon Mrs Downs for four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I thought that I was going to be taking Mr Mkhwanazi's place.  Is Mr Rajbansi not ahead of me?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am very sorry.  It is Mr Rajbansi for four minutes.  Sorry, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, when there is no water in school, when there are no toilets in schools, this country must hang its head in shame.  When a Minister announces the one millionth person in this country who has got fresh water, our flag must fly high.  When a Minister announces that primary health care has reached 2,6 million people in our rural areas, our flag must fly higher.  That is the language which people will understand not the language of the glitter of the bright lights in our major cities.

This ANC Minister in an IFP-led Government backed by the ANC-led National Government, both backed by the Minority Front has to be complimented.  [LAUGHTER]  Has to be complimented.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A RAJBANSI:  The hon Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, please listen, pointed out some problems which were highlighted by the Minister.  The Mahatma Gandhi Hospital is not functioning well, it has staff problems.  We have money problems.  There are problems.

The hon Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee was correct when she pointed at ~apartheid~.   In order to carry out post-mortems there are only black African bodies used.  In the past few days a great solution has been found, an announcement has been made in the Tribune.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR A RAJBANSI:  The hon Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee can take this to the King Edward VIII Hospital, that we have a body that can be used.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question?

MR A RAJBANSI:  I am a great stickler for Rules.  He is not asking the question from his bench.

AN HON MEMBER:  I will take the question.

MR A RAJBANSI:  There are problems with medicine.  I think every person in this country who belongs to the have nots, who has been a victim of exploitation must stand behind the National Minister of Health, in spite of what people have said about her, when she takes on the giants in this country.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one minute left.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I took on the giants and they promised to reduce me to political dust, and I am here.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A RAJBANSI:  Let us get the generic substitutes, and let us cut down the price of our much required medicine in our country.  I want to ask the hon Minister, have we not got good panel beaters in this Province?  Why were 12 ambulances secretly sent to Johannesburg for repair?  Do you not believe in the dictum "charity begins at home"?  I know the Minister is not responsible.  I know who is guilty, not the Minister of Transport.  

But the greatest thing is our school feeding scheme, nutrition education.  Let us try ayurvedic medicine.  The Deputy State President made an appeal to well-to-do people.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MR A RAJBANSI:  30 seconds, Mr Chairman.  Made an appeal for voluntary contributions.  There are massive school feeding schemes on the part of individuals in this country.  Let us have some small tax relief, so that we can feed thousands and thousands of people.  One hon member of this House feeds 2 000 African children per month.  Let that number multiply.  That member's name will remain a secret.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  The next in line is the hon Mrs Downs for four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I am afraid that my speech is not going to be pleasant for the Minister.  He has asked us not to put the spotlight on abortions, and the reason for that is that it does not bear up under public scrutiny.

I have with me here a copy of the document referred to in his speech and it says here, "The guidelines for termination of pregnancy".  The newspaper reports were not exaggerated, neither were they misrepresented.  It is here in black and white, as to what the Department of Health guidelines are.

I submit to the hon Minister that the guidelines are a normal procedure in the Department of Health.  They are sent out on any number of issues, any number of methods of doing things in the Department and they are adhered to by the Department.

So while this may not be an Act, I think that your policies of the National Government have been exposed in this document.  In the section saying 8.2 it refers to, "Greater than 12 week termination of pregnancies", and then it gives the guideline for them in about four lines and then in the last two lines it says:

	In cases where the gestation is further advanced and an infant is born who gasps for breath it is advised that the foetus does not receive any resuscitation measures.

Here it is in black and white.

AN HON MEMBER:  Read the whole document.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I have read the whole document and there are various other things in this document which also make my hair stand on end.  Like the fact that Misoprostol is to be advanced as a method of termination of pregnancy, because doctors find it more acceptable than doing a primary surgical procedure as it feels more like managing an incomplete.

What this means is that you are using psychological methods to con doctors into doing abortions that they do not want to do, and that is a fact.

I also find the tone of Mr McGlew's rebuttal arrogant in the extreme, as the ANC very well knows that more than 75% of its own supporters do not support abortion on demand, and yet he states in here and it was done by scientific sampling by the Stellenbosch University and quoted by this magazine here.  75% of the ANC's own supporters do not support termination of pregnancy.  His rebuttal here when it says that:

	Those who disagree with the law will again have the chance to make their voices heard in 1999.  It is a process called democracy.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member has one more minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I find it extremely arrogant, because I challenge the ANC to open this matter up to referendum.  They know very well that the majority of this country do not support abortion on demand.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS J M DOWNS:  And I will end right there.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON: [The next one is the hon member Mother Blose, who has 10 minutes].

MRS H M BLOSE:  

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, and the hon Parliament.  I thank our Minister for the job that he has done.  It is such a big task.  Opening doors that had been closed, our old women did not have clinics, clinics in the rural areas where there is nothing.

One would have to be told that there was such a thing as a nurse.  You only saw a nurse when you went to town, because the nurse was wearing a white dress, but clinics have now appeared.

I am very grateful that all the Ministers have not given us something to chew, but today our Minister of Health has shown that a person's health can be gained even by a sweet which one might look down upon.  Then you say you no longer want sweets, because it causes diabetes, and then you say you are sick.

I want to request to talk about this plague that has beset our people, that is known as AIDS.  Minister Nkosazana Zuma has gone up and down, she has even fetched doctors for us from overseas, because there are problems here, because there are no doctors who would be able to meet this task of health.

We are very grateful to Health, because they bothered themselves going up and down, asking that even here in South Africa our doctors could be trained so that they would be able to continue with the work of being doctors and healing our people in South Africa.

We are grateful to Nkosazana Zuma, because she concerned herself going up and down, she even went overseas because she was concerned about her nation, the black nation which was not receiving adequate health care.

I am requesting to talk about abortions that people are talking about every day on Radio Zulu, talking about abortions.  I want to clarify the situation to this House.

I am requesting the men to listen, because they are not the ones that fall pregnant, it is the women that fall pregnant.  In this House I want to say that the whites have been having abortions for a long time, but today because abortions are now legal it is as if it is something new.

Our people, our Government has been drained caring for the health needs of orphans that were unnecessary.  They have now made it possible for black women to be able to have abortions.

Women have been hurt, very hurt in many areas, because you find a leg in one place, you find the head of the child in another place, whereas if this is legalised, abortions will stand, and there will not be orphans who will encounter difficulties, and go walking around looking pathetic on the roads.  Children are put in plastic bags and found on the roads.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thanks for saving us time. [The next person is the hon member Mr Redinger who has six minutes].  Is that a point of order?

MR R M BURROWS:  Yes.  I think Mrs Ford unfortunately is ahead of Mr Redinger.  However, if you wish to give Mr Redinger the opportunity to speak from the grave he may.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am very sorry about this.  I keep on jumping lines.  Perhaps it has got to do with my earlier concentration.

MR M F REHMAN:  Point of order, Mr Chairman.  A dead man tells no tales.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sorry, Mrs Ford.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, it is not parliamentary to call a member dead.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  Order please!  Mrs Ford.  The hon member has got ten minutes.

MRS O E FORD:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  I mean you sit with bated breath waiting for a chance to speak and then it is taken away from you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER  

MRS O E FORD:  Mr Chairman, through you to the hon Minister, thank you for your very comprehensive report.  Unfortunately I am going to have some things to say about it.  I always stand up for my own rights as well as everyone else's.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order! Order please!

MRS O E FORD:  The Department of Health has been very, very proud of the fact that R41 million of RDP funding was put aside for the building of clinics.  I think that is a very, very worthwhile cause.  The only problem being of course that there are a lot of them standing empty because of the lack of staff.  The clinic is only opened when the mobile clinic arrives once, maybe twice a month.  That is very disheartening for the people living in that community.  They are asking the questions, "Why have we got this white elephant".  If something can be done about that, Mr Minister, you and your party will gain popularity.

The next thing I have to talk about is the ambulance services.  I personally have brought complaints from my town about the ambulance services.  Official complaints from the superintendent of the hospital and from local doctors about the service.  The length of time patients have had to wait for an ambulance to come to bring them to Maritzburg.

I had a letter, advising me that the complaints had been taken notice of and that investigations would be made.  I have had no report back.  Through you, Mr Chairman, I would very much appreciate a report back, so that I can report back to my hospital board, of which I am a member.

The next thing is the salaries of nurses.  Now I am sure there is not one person in this room who will not agree with me, the salaries of nurses are really shocking.  To do the work that they do, the hours that they work, it must be very, very disheartening on payday to take home the salaries they do.  It is a strange thing in this country that nurses, teachers and police are the poorest paid.  In other countries, in Europe those people, because of the service that they provide are the highest paid.  So please, if something can be done about that.

The other day we debated about the PSC.  At the Estcourt Hospital, and I am sure everybody here realises that I do not talk about nebulous things, I talk about things that I know.  The acting superintendent has been acting for 12 months plus.  On 19 February the Chairman of our Hospital Board wrote to the Department asking what had happened?  What is going to happen?  The man has been acting for 12 months, and as I am sure you realise, to be in an acting position for that length of time is very disheartening.  Either tell the man the job is yours or the job is not yours, and put somebody else in the place, but not to have the proper authority in that position.

The reply came on 12 May, that was from 19 February to 12 May, saying that the PSC is considering that post.  How much longer do the PSC need to consider?  Please, Mr Minister, put the boot where it needs to be put.

AIDS.  We have heard a lot about AIDS.  A year ago, I am sure in the Health Committee debate, I queried the fact that AIDS is not a notifiable disease.  I was told that it was not because of the stigma attached.  Well, I think it is time that that stigma was wiped out.  Originally there was a stigma attached because if you had AIDS you were a queer.  It is not so any more.  Anybody can get AIDS for all sorts of reasons.  You do not even have to have sex.  So for goodness sake, there should no longer be a stigma. If it is made a notifiable disease then the stigma will be cleared away because it will not be, "Sssh, he has got AIDS".  There are so many people with AIDS in this country that it will be, "Ha, he has got AIDS".

As our hon Minister of Social Welfare said this morning, nobody is above the law.  I must congratulate the Minister on his actions against fraud in his Department.  There seems to be nothing worse than people defrauding the poor.  That is eventually at the end of the day what it all amounts to.

In our local clinic the sister in charge went to get stocks, a bucket of Panado, 5000 of them.  They were gone.  The bucket was empty.  When she picked it up it lifted in her hand.  Somebody, and it must be a member of the staff, took 5 000 Panado.  Now what on earth for, certainly it must have been a hell of a big headache or they are selling them.

When we get onto the guidelines.  At one of the Committee meetings I asked, whether if somebody came for an abortion, that person would be properly counselled, because it is all very well to find out that you are pregnant and decide to go for an abortion not understanding the reality of having an abortion.  I was assured that it would be done, but now in these guidelines it says here:

	Counselling should include listening to reasons for termination of pregnancy.  Counselling and the family planning counselling and giving details of the termination of pregnancy procedures.

Then:

	Counselling, in this context, can be done by any health care provider and does not require special training.

Well, I argue very, very strongly about that one, because I could not give somebody counselling, because I have not been trained.  So to say that the counsellor does not need special training please, Mr Minister, if you are going to be investigating this lot make sure that that is brought in in our Provincial Act if nothing else.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MRS O E FORD:  How many terminations of pregnancies have you had, sir?  [LAUGHTER]  Thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  Enough said.

MRS O E FORD:  Counselling skills for all providers may need to be strengthened through a training programme.  I could not agree more with that.  The thought, as my hon colleague Mrs Downs has read out, and I will not read it again, the thought of allowing a baby because when it is breathing and gasping it is no longer a fetus, it is a baby, it is a human being then.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes left.

MRS O E FORD:  Thank you.  Then it is a baby, it is a human being.  To allow that, to say in black and white, that baby should be allowed to die, it should not be given any sort of resuscitation.  I am sorry, it makes my blood run cold.

In closing, on a lighter note, Mr Chairman, I would like to thank the Minister for this little gift.  I am sure that I will find the egg timer a lot more useful than the gift you gave me last year, sir.  I do not use them.  Thank you.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon member.  Our next speaker is the hon Mr Redinger for six minutes.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I think all our male gender here has taken good note of staying well clear of Mrs Ford.  [LAUGHTER]

Mr Chairman, I am very amused at the death sentence passed on my party here.

AN HON MEMBER:  You have been resurrected.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  It is really very amusing because especially coming from the benches of the DP who ... 

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order.  They passed the death sentence themselves.

AN HON MEMBER:  He is out of order.  Get back to your seat.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!

AN HON MEMBER:  Tiger, can you come to your seat please?

AN HON MEMBER:  Is that parliamentary?

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  I take it coming from the benches of the DP that they are giving notice here that they will be leading the onslaught on the ANC in 1999.

MR R M BURROWS:  In fact we do it now.  We will carrying on doing it.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Probably gaining a 50% majority of the likes, you know.  That is what is so terribly amusing to me.

I wish to focus on AIDS this evening.  AIDS, as we heard from the Minister and from the Department in last year's budget debate, is really a very, very serious matter that is definitely affecting all of us.  One way or another, financially or personally or whatever else, it is going to impact on us and our society.

I think it is very important that we also establish the true statistical perspective of what is actually happening, that we get real analytical figures, that we in fact have a forensic audit on what the position really is, because many perceptions are raised here of our tremendous population explosion.  I hear members talking of our population reaching 17 million in a few years time, where we know it is not going to be that.  Where we know that the scourge of AIDS is going to impact negatively on everything that happens in this Province and in South Africa.  It is going to impact, and I think we need to really know what the statistical situation dictates to how we manage the situation.

It has been raised, the idea of making it a notifiable disease.  Notifiable in the sense yes, that perhaps the district surgeon should have a list of positive HIVs in his district.  I believe we may owe it to society that people have the opportunity to decide for themselves if they want to live with an HIV positive person or not or that you have HIV and HIV associates living together.  It would help to order the situation a little bit.  I am absolutely certain about this.

MR R M BURROWS:  It smells like ~apartheid~ to me.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  You can say what you like but the disease is with us, Mr Chairman.

MR R M BURROWS:  And it will be with all of us.  So stop segregating.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Yes.  I am not segregating here, I am very sorry.  We read of the Anglican Bishop, Rubin Philip and a delegation visiting Kenya and Uganda.  We are very, very keen to hear their findings of what they found there, and to what extent we as a Portfolio Committee could also be involved.  After all we are the link with the public, and we would like to assist the Minister, if at all possible, in this whole thing of addressing the scourge that is with us.

I am certain that they would have picked up a great deal, to be learnt in Central Africa.  We know that Uganda has been quite successful in addressing the problem of AIDS.  We do not know to what extent Kenya has, but we would really love to hear directly from these people what there findings are.  Let us debate this issue, hon Mr Minister, through you Mr Chairman, we would love to be on board with you when it comes to the discussions on how to deal with this issue.  I think it is one of the prime issues that we should be debating in the Portfolio Committee at this stage.  That is all I want to say.  Thank you, Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Redinger.  Our next speaker in line is the hon Dr Luthuli for 14 minutes.

DR A N LUTHULI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman and hon members of this House.  I am grateful to contribute to this budget debate of the Ministry of Health, a Ministry which is very important to the lives of the people.

This year the budgetary allocation to health in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal is R3,7 billion, of which approximately R1,7 billion goes to District Health Services.  It is an improvement on the allocation of last year.  I think it is an improvement of about R300 000 million.

I like to highlight these figures, because as parliamentarians, all of us here must appreciate that despite the financial constraints in the country Central Government continues to attempt to maintain allocations to the more important departments, concerned with uplifting the social life of the people in this country.  In particular, the previously disadvantaged and Central Government is doing this at a steady level.

The supreme aim of Government is to completely turn around health delivery in our country.  In the past, that is under the previous ~apartheid~ Government, the emphasis was on curative, hi-tech health delivery for the privileged few.  This Government aims to turn the pyramid upside down.  The broad base of the pyramid where it was curative will become the preventive health care.  The apex which before was preventive will be curative.  Upside down and the better for that.  This will be achieved through the implementation of comprehensive Primary Health Care, countrywide.

The Department of Health, on assuming power, adopted the District Health System approach, through which District Health Authorities will become the entities for co-ordinating and monitoring Primary Health Care.  The Regional offices will play a facilitator role.  Towards this end, the Department adopted a policy of maximum devolution of responsibility and authority from head office to the regions and eventually to the districts.

In the short time in office, three years to be exact, an incredible amount of work has had to be undertaken by the Minister of Health at National level with the laudable aim in mind, to turn around health delivery as I have already mentioned, to a more equitable, accessible and affordable system.

My colleague hon Mr Dlamini, mentioned the restructuring of the laws pertaining to the relevant areas to accommodate these changes.  I urge the members of this House to give the Nursing Amendment Bill, Medicines and Related Substances Control Amendment Bill, the Pharmacy Amendment Bill, the Medical, Dental and Supplementary Professionals Bill, those are the Bills that Mr Dlamini laid out, to give them the broad-minded support they deserve.  They are good for turning around health in this country.

We should support these Bills rather than join the column of those who condemn, willy-nilly, all that comes from the Department of Health, and we know this is happening.  There are members of the House as well as the public who are just ready to condemn anything that comes from the Department of Health.  It has become really a part-time job to do that.

We must applaud the Minister of Health, Dr Nkosazana Zuma and her Department for showing courage and preparedness to take the bull by the horns and steam ahead, implementing change and for their good work and immeasurable energy.

It is for these reasons that she is often targeted for unfair, uninformed criticism by those who benefitted selfishly from the previous status quo, and would rather continue to see the poor die and only the privileged remain entitled to life.  She is achieving meaningful change and sees over Provincial Health departments equally dedicated to these changes, at least most of them, maybe one province may be doing its own thing.  I am not sure.

Who can deny that under the ~apartheid~ rule everything affecting our lives in our beloved country had gone 100% wrong, and therefore a 100% turn around is required, to right things.  This is the duty of every Ministry, but will take time to achieve, but achieve it will.

Our Ministers and their departments' personnel must not be discouraged by the loud noises of those who made a mess of our country over almost five decades, and now crisscrosses the country shouting the loudest, that the ANC Government has failed to deliver only three years down the line.

The people of this country will not be fooled or allow themselves to again be deceived.  Hon members, we have been subjected by our previous rulers to one of the greatest deceits in the history of mankind.

Focusing on Primary Health Care.  The Ministry has made strides in the past year.  There is the clinic upgrading and building programme.  The Department keeps us informed on this important RDP project on a monthly basis.  An excellent exercise of accountability and transparency.  The Minister already showed how successful the programme is.  I think we all know it.

This programme has steamed ahead with great success.  It is good now, maybe, that not much money is put into this programme.  The Committee feels that, in other words, you know, no more new money, except to complete what had already been started. 

I think a lot of the members in the House here have alluded to this.  I would say that this House should perhaps take note of it.  The Committee feels that more money, concentration and effort should go into the training of personnel to man our health system, in particular Primary Health Care.  I am sure the Ministry is going in that direction, but what is coming out is that in fact the clinic building programme has perhaps gone faster than the production of nurses and personnel to man the clinics and the Primary Health Care programme in general.

I do not think that we need to make a mountain out of this, but what we need to do is to encourage the Department, perhaps, to look into what can be done in that regard.  We need nurses and doctors with a different emphasis on training, who will end up with a different approach and attitude towards our people, the majority of whom still do not know their basic rights and do not know what to do when these rights are trodden on at health care delivery outlets, when all they had gone to seek was sympathetic care for their health problems.

It is worrying that the budget shows a reduction in finance towards this end, that is towards training of nurses.  I just want to say that I think we do have a problem with regard to the people who deliver health care to the sick.  I think this is an ~apartheid~ legacy without any doubt.  It is a matter of how to care for people.  You will find that, and some people have mentioned this already, even those who are there are just not sensitive enough to the kind of work that they are doing.  Patients are often abused and spoken to anyhow and told all sorts of things, when all they wanted was to be heard and get the treatment.

I think this is widespread.  I think that we should take note of this, and perhaps sit down and really think what can be done to really change the attitudes of the people who handle our people at delivery levels.  It is the same with the Department of Welfare, the same problem arises there.  The same problem in Health.  We have people who do not have the right attitude, and really the worst thing is this which makes you feel the pain.

Most of these people are actually blacks.  It will be black nurses and most of these patients are blacks, and they get this kind of treatment.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes left.

DR A N LUTHULI:  They do not usually give the same treatment if it is a white or an Indian.  Basic to Primary Health Care is the Extended Programme of Immunisation, EPI.  Much has been done in this regard.  The announcement from the National Minister that polio should be eliminated in South Africa by 1998, is good news.  It will join diseases like smallpox that have been rendered irrelevant through vaccination.

The EPI programme concerning the other preventable illnesses such as diphtheria, whooping cough, tetanus, measles, hepatitis B, is gaining momentum and it looks like by the year 2000, as targeted by WHO, we will be counted with those nations who will have done well.  TB is amongst those diseases with a vaccination BCG to prevent it.

Presently it poses a serious problem to our country, particularly amongst the blacks.  There are numerous interacting reasons for this state of affairs, but obviously strict measures have to be taken and observed against this preventable illness.  Added to the other measures that exist to reduce the incidence of TB, the DOTS programme is to be welcomed.  This strategy will help on the curative side of the disease.

I just want perhaps to put my case here to the Minister.  I do not understand why TB is so rampant in the country, when there is a vaccine.  BCG, it is supposed to be given at birth and then I think it is renewed at five years.  It should be renewed when they leave school.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

DR A N LUTHULI:  Can I just finish this?  And yet TB is rampant.  Do we chase the contacts and all that kind of thing?  I would like the Minister to reply.  It is really quite baffling.  I would like to say that I add my voice in moving that this House accepts the budget.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Dr Luthuli.  Our last speaker on this budget is the hon Mr Rehman with ten minutes.

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!  Confession.

MR M F REHMAN:  Thank you.  Mr Chairman, at the outset, I would like to compliment our hon Minister of Health, Dr Zweli Mkhize, for presenting to this hon House, the KwaZulu-Natal Health budget in such a professional manner.  I know for a fact that the hon Minister, together with the Secretary General for Health, Professor Ronnie Green-Thompson, formerly of Newcastle, and the senior officials of his Department, has taken great pains and pride in compiling this booklet that we have today on our desks.

Having said that, I am afraid any department would not function smoothly without valid criticism from the outside looking in as armchair observers.  It must be noted that we as members of the Health Portfolio Committee have a duty to perform to our people at grass-roots level.

We all are aware that KwaZulu-Natal was underfunded for many years and as a result has left this Province under-resourced, both in terms of facilities and services.  In spite of this work has continued in our Province under our hon Minister of Health.

In KwaZulu-Natal we have 1 816 doctors.  Of these 536 are foreign.  There is presently a shortage of 453 doctors.  24 237 nurses form the nursing contingent of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  There is a shortage of 4 338 nurses.  Why this enormous shortage of doctors and nurses?  The obvious reason for this shortage is the emigration of hundreds, if not thousands of our medical personnel, to greener pastures.

What is being done to provide these men and women with incentives to remain?  Possibly my colleague the hon Minister of Health will respond.

AN HON MEMBER:  They send them call-up papers.

MR M F REHMAN:  I do hope the Department will carry out a massive training of personnel at our standards.  The very poor children who have the capability of doing medicine, should be encouraged and financed.  As we have heard the hon Minister has already touched on Cuban doctors.  They are doing a wonderful job especially in our rural areas.  A case of Cuba-enteritis I suppose.

I still say that "local is ~lekker~" and we should harness our local resources.  Our local doctors must be provided with suitable housing and security, for both themselves and their families at their places of work.  It may appear to be costly initially but it could save the State a great deal in the future.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Chairman, would you protect me please?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  You are protected.

MR M F REHMAN:  Thank you.  In September 1993 NEHAWU started a strike until May 1994.  For the seven months that they did not work the nurses received full salary.  At present at Prince Mshiyeni Hospital, the NEHAWU nurses are once again on strike for the second week.  I hope the hon Minister will reply to this.  For how long is this strike going to continue?

We, the members of the Portfolio Committee, enjoy a wonderful co-operation with our hon Minister, the Secretary General and the senior officials of his Department in KwaZulu-Natal.  The budget of R3,712 billion for 1997 is not really enough considering the health needs of our Province.

I would like to correct the last speaker, the hon Dr Luthuli, who has mentioned that there was an increase of R300 000.  In fact there is a decrease of 1%.  It is 1% less than last year's budget.

A classical example is the Newcastle Provincial Hospital.  This hospital is presently utilising 270 beds but the hospital budget allows for only 120 beds.  There is a dire need for extra beds, more doctors, more clerks, a pharmacist and more nurses so that this hospital which was built to accommodate 400 beds could be put to optimal use.

Once again we do have a problem with senior staff at this hospital in Newcastle.  I believe the nominations for a superintendent at Newcastle Hospital was closed in December.

Interviews have already taken place in February this year.  I have already been in touch with Dr Howes from the Provincial Service Commission, thinking that once again the delay is in this Department, but was informed that no documents have yet been received from the Health Department with regard to this vacancy.

I do hope our hon Minister will be able to favourably respond to this.  I must, however, sincerely mention that I, as a member of Parliament for the area, do have a duty to perform to my people in Newcastle.  I am certain my colleague the hon Minister understands this.

With regard to the School Nutrition Programme, as my fellow colleagues have already touched on this issue, I know that there are still thousands of children being deprived of the school feeding scheme.  I would like to humbly appeal to our hon Minister to speed up the delivery of this service especially to my area of Newcastle, Madadeni, Osizweni, Dannhauser, Dundee and Glencoe.

On a much lighter note I would like to quote the following:

	A young lady arrives at the clinic and says, "I would like to see the out turn".  The nurse replies, "Surely you mean the intern".  "Internal, out turn, I need an infernal".  "You mean internal", says the nurse.  "~Ja~, ~ja~.  Anyhow show me to fraternity".  "You mean maternity".  "Listen nurse", said the patient, "Intern, out turn, infernal, internal, fraternity, maternity, all I know is that I have not demonstrated for two months and I think I am stagnant".  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes left.

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Chairman, we from the IFP-led Government have pleasure in supporting this budget.  I thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Rehman.  It is now my pleasure to call upon the hon Minister to respond to the debate.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I wish to thank the hon members for the very exciting debate, I should call it a very healthy debate.

Starting with the hon Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, Dr Mtalane.  I really have to thank her for her contribution and her support.  Coming to the issues that have been raised.  I just want to say that the issue of the funds given to the Chess on the HIV, it had to do with a Situation Analysis Report that was asked of them but we can discuss the issue in more detail at the Portfolio Committee meeting.

The issue of the subsidised hospitals hiding funds one way or the other.  Of course we are learning all the tricks now.  I am not quite sure what is going on.  I think that it is something we will need to investigate.  Actually I also would agree that in most of the communities we have tried our best to spread whatever capital projects to as many hospitals and as many areas as possible.  Therefore the balance of the population in this Province do believe that there is an improvement in some of the conditions of their own facilities.

The issue of discipline is quite a challenge.  I will come to that a little bit later.  Let me start by saying that the issue of the health regions, we are doing our best to bring all the boundaries so that they are in line with the Local Government boundaries.  For our purposes I think there probably might be two or so regions where we still have a bit of a difficulty.  I would also accept that there are specialised areas that require attention, like speech therapy and the others that have been mentioned.

Let us maybe deal with the whole question of the free health care and the fact that this might suggest lower standards as such.  I think the policy was based on making sure that we improve the access of all the members of the public to health services.  The belief that if you do not pay for anything, it is of a lower or a cheaper quality is something that we need to educate our people on, to make sure people understand the benefit of the health system as it stands.

I would challenge the aspect that says cheaper medicines are in fact less effective.  I think the part that says cheap medicines caused the downfall of health services in some of the countries,  I am not quite aware of that.  All I can say is that probably the downfall of health services was an symptom of an economic problem in a particular country.

What has been quoted, for example, by experts, is that South Africa is one of those countries that has got a very high cost of medicine per capita.  An estimation of per capita spending for medicine was quoted as US$22,5 for South Africans per year, but if you were to look at the rest of the African countries the highest figure was about $4,5 per capita per year.  The average is about two to three.  I think we can still do a lot to reduce the cost of spending.

In so far as the institutions are concerned, the cost of salaries is the highest, next is the cost of medicine and related to equipment.  We know very well we will not be able to reduce the cost of salaries that much but we can do something about the cost of medication.  Bangibhulele Baba. 

I want to say that there is something to be learnt here.  What Dr Zuma is proposing is not to say that we want cheaper drugs because we want lower quality drugs.  There are drugs which are called generic drugs and those would be the same type of drugs. They actually are of a lower cost because there are more companies that produce the drugs.  That usually happens after about 15 years if the drug has been produced by a particular company.  After so many years that particular company no longer has the patent.  Then other companies can actually produce the same drug and that can be done at a cheaper cost.

What we are saying is that we want to go for effective generics and use those for treatment, instead of actually going for more expensive ones.  I have an example of a particular company, I will not quote it here, where you actually find a company here in South Africa which has got the same medication at a higher cost than for what you will get in Zimbabwe, the same company.  If you go from Zimbabwe to Malaysia, you find it is even cheaper in Malaysia and if you go to India it is even cheaper.  It is one company and it is one drug we are talking about.

What we are saying is that the Government must reserve a right to instead of purchasing it from here where it is more expensive, from the same company, you can go and buy it in India and still find it cheaper.  That is what we are trying to sort out.

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes, and that makes sense.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Of course when I was in Malaysia I spoke to a manager in this particular company and I asked him, "Why is your drug less expensive in Malaysia than in South Africa?"  Then of course he said jokingly, "In South Africa you can afford it".  We are saying that no, we want the right drug.

MR M F REHMAN:  Point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  What is the point of order?  Let us hear.

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Chairman, will the hon Minister take a question?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  When I am through, Mr Chairman, I will take a question.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Minister.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  What I am saying is that I think we also need to deal with this concept to say if something is cheaper then it is actually useless.  That is not actually what the health service is all about.  The concept of saying if you go to a doctor and pay for your services, pay for your treatment, it is better than going to a nurse and getting the same medication.  We need to sort that out.

We know of people who have actually paid dearly to get vitamin B.Co or Aqua-distiller.  I am sure Dr Mtalane would know what we are talking about.  Part of the problem has got to do with the thinking and teaching people to think positively about some of these things.

The problem of admissions where people are sent home when they are quite sick.  I think we need to actually discuss and speak about specific areas so that we can actually attend to some of those.  We cannot condone any attitude that is seen as negative by the public.  Therefore we want to indicate that if there are any cases, the public has got a right to lay a complaint to the superintendent of the institution.  If they are not able to get any redress they can in fact refer the matter for our attention, at the Minister's level.

The issue of abortion or termination of pregnancy.  I can guarantee you that 20 years from now you will have a hot debate, as hot as it is now, it will be then.  It is an issue that will be with us for a long time.  It will always surface more and more during the times of elections.  At any time it will be a hot issue.  Therefore I do not believe that we will be surprised at all the views that are being expressed.  I think we have to take it from here.  The point made about the guidelines, the portion that the members raised, I did indicate earlier that I noticed that that particular portion could be misinterpreted and could be misleading.  From that point of view we believe that it needs to be withdrawn, so that we can actually get the final protocol set in place.

I want to assure this House that the guidelines had nothing to do with any idea of allowing babies to die.  It has got nothing to do with that.  No person would sit here and instruct doctors to actually kill any babies.  That is a different concept altogether.  What we have responded to, which the hon member Mrs Downs is talking about, is a general debate that has been raging for months on pro and anti-abortion, generally.  It was not an issue that we were saying that in this particular case that we are supporting an interpretation that we consider erroneous. 

I am saying that it is an aspect that we need to handle with sensitivity.  I am not quite familiar with the issues of euthanasia.  I think we can deal with that a little bit later in the Portfolio Committee.

The issue of the hospitals that are not well kept.  I think that is actually quite regrettable.  In the House here we have got members of our administration who will make sure that this issue of hospitals being very dirty has to be corrected.  I think we need a little bit more motivation from the staff.  I have also noticed a few letters that have come from the press and some have come from the hon Dr Mtalane indicating to me some of the comments.  I would like us to correct that.  We need to sort that out.

The question of respect for hours of duty.  In your packages you have indications of the kinds of disciplinary hearings that are going on.  When we meet with the Portfolio Committee we can actually give a breakdown of the disciplinary hearings some of whom have actually got an intention of returning the issue of discipline within the hospitals, within the institution.  I have said that our main thrust is going to be based on management flexibility and retraining of management as well, and actually ensuring that there is discipline, and this is part of the issue.

There is no way we can condone the issue of theft of medicines and of course our members have got two things to say.  I think maybe what the hon member Mr Dingila, was referring to, where there was no medicine in clinics, was referring to a situation where people have come, after what Dr Mtalane had mentioned, where there was so much medicine people took home.  So I think that is actually one of the problems of theft that we have got a problem with.

Where we have got cases reported of people stealing medicine they will be charged.  There is no excuse for that.  If somebody is found stealing medicine they will be charged.  Why should they go out and sell medicine when the Government who buys the medicine is not selling it, is not asking any money for it?

The question of staff that is demoralised and overworked.  I think we have got to work on that.  The fact of the situation is that we have got a certain amount of shortages.  You have the figures.  Therefore we are saying that if people are demoralised and we have tried to compensate that by actually improving on the overtime.  When we discuss details it will also show how much we have tried to actually compensate some of the staff because of the overtime they work.

The issue of the Prince Mshiyeni Hospital and Catherine Booth.  I think those are some of the symptoms of the times of transition we have come from.  We will have to attend to them.  Where you have got political intonations in hospital situations, we discouraged very strongly party politicking within the hospital.  We have said that is completely disallowed.  We are saying therefore that we need to deal with and address in the particular institution, as a labour issue and pull out the politics.  Where we think there is politics involved we normally try and get representatives of the political parties, through the Portfolio Committee, to come in and intervene.

In that regard I have to thank the hon member Dr Mtalane and Mr Rehman, who have actually come over with me to try and deal with the situation at Catherine Booth.  I must say that is not a simple situation and therefore, because of the pressure, one is not able to concentrate on one hospital as such.  We gave instructions on how to actually go about this thing once we had met with the community and the ~Inkosi~ in the area.  The other issues related to that, we will need to discuss.

The whole question of ~apartheid~ attitudes in hospitals, we must put it quite clearly that no form of discrimination is allowed in any institution.  Whether it is discrimination based on race or religion or any form it will not be allowed.  When we find proof thereof we will be able to take concrete action against that.

The issue again of the Primary School Nutrition Programme.  There is an area of difficulty there.  I have indicated as to how far we have gone with it and if there are any further particulars needed we will discuss a bit more.  I notice that the hon member Mr Burrows actually had things to say about it.  All I am saying here is that it is a difficult operation to conduct and somebody has to do the dirty work, unfortunately.  When it is quite dirty we have to understand that it is because of the nature of the work that we are doing.  We are hoping that though the formation of the statutory councils of the various schools, they will actually assist us in strengthening that.

Then coming to the issue of the projects that the hon member is talking about.  We have what is called the National Nutritional and Social Development Programme.  This programme was fraught with a lot of problems.  The hon member Mr Dingila did indicate that during his time they actually had R4 million allocated.  They accounted for just about half the amount.  What happened to the rest I do not know.  This is what we found when we came in.

What we then did, and of course we have sent in forensic auditors to follow up.  The hon member Mr Volker, will tell you a bit more about that, but the issue is that we had to do something about it.  The best way of dealing with it was to actually try and integrate that programme and link it up with the Primary School Nutritional Programme.  We have picked up about four such pilot projects.  One of them is what the hon member is talking about.  Funding was given to a group of women in the region of Jozini area.  There will be more amounts.

The other one was given to a scheme which is run by Operation Hunger.  They wanted to start a programme, I think around Bergville, and another one around Umzinto.  The next one also had to do with community based organisations which was also going to be run in areas around Empangeni and Maritzburg.  Now it is different areas.

The second group of projects that we are dealing with is one which is supposed to be run by Valley Trust.  Their aim is to train teachers so that they can go and teach about nutrition in the schools.  So when we talk about it in about three years time, we should have been able to train about 3 500 teachers, who must then in their school regenerate the whole question of teaching.  Teaching children about nutrition, teaching them about bringing food to school which is what we call the Lunch-Box Campaign.  The whole thing has got to be integrated.

I want to also indicate here that when Minister Bartlett, before he actually left as the Minister of Agriculture, we raised the issue that in fact we needed to actually have co-ordination between the two departments, Health and Agriculture on this particular one, as well as Education which was already involved.  We also raised it again with Dr Ngubane who was the Minister of Agriculture.  We will also be involving the new Minister of Agriculture in these programmes.

In fact, earlier on during this session I did mention that I believe we need to actually have co-ordination of all the departments at the local level, and there is such a co-ordination.  Any impression that there was any political impressions gained there, well, I would really say I was there, I did not see any party flags.  I think we just need to correct, where there are misunderstandings.

The issue of cadavers.  I would like to leave that one aside and not go into it too much.  I think what the hon member has raised, I need a bit of time to actually understand that.  Some of the things she said, I could actually benefit from the experience of the old matron.  Some of the things that were said, are things that we need to actually correct.  These are things that went on in the past and these are things that I do not quite understand.  That is, for example, in relation to the question of theft of ossicles from cadavers and why we still only have African cadavers and so on.  I think we will leave it at that.  I just say we will note that.

The question of private hospitals.  Again there the question of increasing private hospitals is an issue.  We are trying to actually compete with the private hospitals because of the overflow into our own hospitals.  That has actually opened up a new market for private hospitals.  What we want to do and this is why we keep on talking about the question of decentralising and increasing authority of the institutions, as well as keeping up the level of expertise, because we want to be able to compete with the private hospitals, so that at the end of the day we will have a high standard of care at the public institutions.

It should not be correct to imagine that if you have a public hospital it has a lower quality care than a private institution.  We want to be able to improve the public hospitals to a level where all the hon members could feel proud to be patients there, rather than moving into the private hospitals.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  We would like to move in that direction and as long as we have that opportunity we will move in that direction.

I also want to thank the hon member Mr Madondo.  I can only say that out of the comments he made we will note them, and say that where the members of Parliament notice and have got evidence of corruption we would like them to point it out and that might help us in sorting those problems out.  It is in the same way that we believe the statutory councils of the schools might help us in the process.

Mr Edwards, again I must thank him.  It is correct, the budget has decreased by 1%, but in reality that is even more.  It should have increased taking into account the question of inflation and so on.

The question of why clinics cannot be staffed.  There are two things.  We can look at it one way or the other.  On the one hand, I believe we actually built the clinics so fast that we have overtaken the staffing process.  It is because we actually took funds which belonged to other provinces.  We pulled them over this way because we were worried that if they could not spend it, it should be brought to KwaZulu-Natal where we could spend it.

However, let me say that out of the 61 projects that have been finalised, 31 are fully functioning.  I believe that is fast enough.  You have heard of all the delays that we have with the staffing problems and I must say it is not in one section.  I did point out in my earlier presentation that within the Department there are delays.  It is not acceptable, but you have also seen why there are some of the delays, because of the shortage of the staff that we have.  Secondly, there also are delays at the level of the Public Service Commission office.

However, I will not say I am laying blame on any particular section.  All I am saying is that the process of staffing is a bit more difficult.  The formula we utilised in getting these clinics off the ground to ensure that we could actually beat all the provinces to build so many clinics.  31 of those projects are fully functional.  Nine clinics are partially functioning because we have got to start with the mobile service.  Until we can pick up the numbers to a particular level and we would then be able to fully staff it.  13 clinics are replacements and they are existing clinics.  They never stopped functioning.  Eight of those have recently been completed and therefore we are in the process of staffing them.

So I think when members see these clinics that are not staffed they must just look at the process we are in.  I will assure you that very soon we will actually be able to take care of those.

There is another interesting point that was raised.  The question of the decrease in the nursing training.  When you have got a budget that is not increasing, that is beginning to decrease you are going to get casualties.  As the Department of Health, you are faced with the dilemma, where do you start cutting?  If the budget is not increasing it obviously means somewhere there is going to be a decrease.  Where do you start?

It is most painful to actually decrease at the level of nursing training in terms of the budget but that is the only place where you can actually start cutting.  Other than that, before we came to the end of the year we had a few hospitals that offered us a solution of closure, as a measure of containing the budget.

I am saying therefore that this is not because of our planning, it is because of the budget and I am happy the members are noticing it.  When I said at the end, that health is a priority, it is this House that will determine how much funds, how much money goes to health.  It will not be anyone else and at that stage we will not be able to blame the Central Government, it will be us who had decided to reduce the training of the nurses because in terms of what we have, that is where we are going to be cutting.  If we can get more funds I can assure you that we need a lot more nurses.  We did say how many nurses are short in this Province.  That is not the only problem that is causing the shortage.

I can only reiterate the gratitude expressed by the hon member to our staff for offering a dedicated service.  Even in the situations where people have served the hospitals from collapsing.

I do not agree that we have actually engaged in any processes that have actually chased our local doctors away.  I do not think so.  I would even say that at this stage the salaries of the doctors and probably most of the staff is better than it was in the other previous Governments.  There has been an increment which is better than any other time in the past.

If you want to know whether that is what they like or not, I would say that it cannot be what they like, because everybody would like a bit more than what is possibly available.  The idea of comparing the private sector salaries with those of the public sector is in fact problematic, because it is not possible for the Government to compete with the private sector, nor is it possible for South Africa to compete with the Middle East and the Arab countries that are draining our doctors.  We will never be able to reach that level.

We must understand that and when I make the point that we need not only increase the training, but we also need to increase the patriotic consciousness of our own people so that they can serve our own needy people, because we have got no choice.  I think if we were to take all the funds and put it into the health staff, so much will go into that, that there will be little else for the other sections.  I think we must face that.

Last week when we presented to the press, about the problems we are facing with the Department of Justice, one of the factors was precisely that.  We are actually in some of the cases finding junior prosecutors who are junior, because some of the seniors have left the service and that again is a problem.  It does not affect only health, it affects more areas.

The complaints about the Cuban doctors.  Let me say, maybe we need to put this into context.  I was in the UK in December, the first week of December.  I cut out a cutting from the local Daily Telegraph, and there they reported of doctors who enucleated the wrong eye from a patient.  That was terrible.

AN HON MEMBER:  Cuban.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  No, this was the British United Kingdom.  Sometimes you get mistakes that happen.  This is what happens to all the doctors.  If you go to the Medical and Dental Council and ask how many complaints they have about doctors, you will see that.  The best demonstration is in the US where you have such a high rate of litigation because of the problems the doctors encounter.

It is something that happens.  You do not have to be Cuban or South African.  If you are a doctor you are bound to make mistakes one way or the other, firstly.

Secondly, if we have a doctor where negligence has been proven, we deal with them.  Cuban, South African, English or Afrikaner or whatever, we deal with them.  I think we must take the complaint, locate it properly and say bring us the complaint.  We report the doctor to the Medical Council.  We discipline the doctor and we deal with the doctor as a doctor.  We do not deal with them in terms of whatever race group they come from.

We have enough foreign doctors here.  We do not wish to place the spotlight on them just because they are foreign doctors.  We have got Italian doctors, doctors from the East, from Bulgaria, from everywhere.  When they come here none of them speak Zulu.  They have got to work through interpreters but that says to us they are giving us a service which we appreciate.  If there is a mistake let us deal with the individual doctor.  There is a professional way of dealing with them.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  The issue of the ghost workers.  Let me just say as a matter of fact the ghost workers are a problem.  I want to assure the hon members that we have set a deadline of May 30 to deal with them.  I would therefore say that whatever answers you have not got we will be able to give them to you.

I would like to also again commend the hon member Mr Dingila for his comments and contribution.  The question of the clinics where there is no medication let us deal with them directly.  Let us report a particular clinic and try and improve the supplies there.  There are a number of problems that we find and I think we can only solve them by bringing those to our attention.  The problem before used to be the supply lines.  We tried to improve that.  The delays, instead of up to three months we now actually have got a delay of about ten days between purchase and payment.  We would like to do our best to reduce that.

The question of local doctors, it is just that we do not have enough of them.  We would otherwise be employing them and no one else from other countries.  The question of getting doctors from Cuba.  That is not the only country we get doctors from.  We have also spoken to Germany who have offered us doctors.  Unfortunately during the testing we only managed to get fewer than the 30 that they originally promised because the sifting process was quite stringent.  We also require more doctors than we can get but that is a temporary solution.  In the long term we need our old South African doctors to be trained.

The question of the R14 million on Sarafina.  I hope we can lay that to rest, because firstly that was a National issue.  To raise it here we will not really be able to get involved in the debate.  We actually believe that the whole concept of drama, using drama to promote AIDS awareness is a good one.  We were not involved in the whole administration and any problems should be referred to the National office.  We have got our own budget and we are trying our best to actually improve that one as well.

I want to also assure the member that we also have a shortage of district surgeons.  If we did have enough we would actually be able to spread them more evenly, but there is no deliberate move to turn a blind eye to any particular area.  We actually are aware of those problems.  It is not only in Ndwedwe.  I think in Nklandla we have got the same problem, in Msinga we have got the same problem where we have got one doctor that covers a very wide area, particularly the rural areas.  It is a problem.

I think it is a challenge that we have got to face and work on. And Vulindlela.  [LAUGHTER]  Oh I see.  I thought the hon member was saying that Vulindlela also does not have doctors now.  We will do our best also and cover the hon member there.

I must thank the hon member Mr Dlamini for his explanation on the Bills.  They will become part of a very hot and active debate here.  We look forward to the discussions at the Portfolio Committee.

I have also indicated and mentioned again the issue of the statistics, hon member Mr Burrows.  I think we have to look into that.  We actually still have teething problems with some of these.  I think that we will be able to correct that type of problem.

I must also then say that there has been quite strong words said about the Department of Education, in so far as the feeding scheme is concerned.  Let me say that the Department of Education, I have to come to their defence, they have actually done quite a bit to give us support.  If there are difficulties it is also because we have got quite a lot of problems here.

I cannot really account for what has happened between the Department and the Portfolio Committee, but in so far as this scheme is concerned, we had a lot of problems that we had to go through, but I think that the assistance we got at the level where we needed it, we actually got satisfactory assistance.

There are areas that we can improve on, but I would say that I do not agree that most of the blame be put on the Department of Education on this particular scheme.  I think we are prepared to take responsibility as the Department of Health.

The issue of saying that the Department of Health should stand up and force the closure of 500 schools without toilets and the closure of 1 000 schools without water.  I wish we were that radical.  I would be very keen to do that.  I would be very happy.  I am not sure how far I would be able to go with it.  I support the principle that we need to be much more aggressive about it but I am not too sure how radical we can be about this one.

If I think back to the school where I grew up, we never had toilets, we used water from the river, we had cow dung polish on the floor and we had four classes in one room.  If there was a very enthusiastic Health Minister who decided to close that school we would have toyi-toyied at his house.  [LAUGHTER]

The issue of the health legislation.  We have delayed that because we want to pick up what is happening at the National level.  We are just worried that we will go too far ahead and find that there is too much contradiction on certain principles at that level.  Otherwise we are ready to move on.  As for Khabazile, thank you very much. [Oh, she has gone Mumbo oMhlophe.  Oh, we thank you very much, Khabazela.  She will be told by the hon member, her neighbour here].

The issue of the termination of pregnancy.  We decided to handle this with caution.  I want to say to all our members that no one is forced to actually perform this.  We have found that some people have just objected.  They see someone else objecting, they say, "No, I also object".  It is not quite because there was an objection in some of the cases but it was because some institutions felt that the workload was being pushed onto them.  That is why we ended up with some of the complaints.

In so far as the questions, and again Mrs Mkhize, that the doctors have thrown at her.  I really must apologise because they targeted the wrong Mkhize this time.  [LAUGHTER]

The issue about the doctors not having to dispense.  It is not correct that we are saying that they must be stopped.  We are simply saying that they must demonstrate that the need for dispensing is enhancing the health service but it is not for profit reasons.  That is really what the whole principle is.

In so far as vocational training for doctors.  I raise the challenge here and I say those hon members who will go to a private practitioner and choose the one who actually qualified one year ago and leave the one who qualified three years ago, and choose that and go and pay with their medical aids they must raise their hands here.  Let us see who would do that.

So all we are doing, we are trying to improve the quality of care in the process.  There will obviously be lots of spins-offs in the process and we want to discuss these quite clearly.  It has actually been quite worrying how we have got somebody who has just completed his internship, walking straight to private practice.  I do not think that really is taking the health of our people quite seriously.  I think we need to actually be quite concerned.

I would also say thank you very much to the hon Mr Rajbansi and I must say that in KwaZulu-Natal we are raising our flag very high.  The amount of progress, despite what has happened, we would like to say that that flag we would like to keep very high.

In so far as the 12 ambulances that were sent to Johannesburg is concerned, I do not know whether there was an emergency.  I certainly wish to get details then we can investigate that.

Hon members in the past have raised questions like this and we found that there was fire behind the smoke.  I want to say give us the information, we will certainly deal with it.  We will dig up and we will come up with the truth.  As we have reported earlier, when we find it we will not hide it from you.

The question of tax relief for those who are feeding.  I think it is a statement which we can only note.  I think we need to send that to the National office.

In so far as the ayurvedic medicine, I think that that is something that is worth further discussions because we are, on the other hand, discussing about sorting out the traditional method of healing in KwaZulu-Natal.

I must also thank the contribution of the hon member Mrs Downs, about the termination of pregnancy.  I have answered the first question and the second one is the statement that we are conning the doctors into terminating pregnancies.  Not at all hon member, we are not conning anyone.  I think the doctors are quite qualified to know when they are doing something, that this is exactly what they are doing, and those who have got moral reasons for objecting they will be allowed to do so, and those who do not have such moral reasons, will actually be allowed to perform this particular procedure.

As for your assertion that 75% of the ANC supporters are actually against the termination of pregnancy.  I would say that the majority of the people who voted for this particular Bill are the members of the ANC.  I do not know how the counting has gone on there.  However, I will say that this is a law at this stage.  I will say that if there is anything else to say, this debate, as far as I am concerned, we will continue for the next 25 years.

Mrs Blose, I also want to thank her for her comments and for her support as well as Mrs Ford.  The issue of the ambulances is a problem.  We are trying our best.  I cannot say to you hon members that we can necessarily change and improve on this, but we would like to look at the specific issues.

In so far as the issue that the hon member is talking about, I am not quite aware which issue it is.  We will deal with it when the time comes, when we have got more information.

The issue of AIDS confidentiality is something that we need to deal with.  I cannot say that we can change the regulations as such but I think people must talk more about it so it is not so much the issue of what the Government is doing, it is an issue of what everybody is doing here.  "Am I free ...", like the hon member Dr Mtalane has done, to stand up and say, "... I have got a relative who has got HIV.  Am I free to say I am HIV positive".  We need to encourage that and I think that we need to deal with that from that level.

Hon member Mr Redinger, again I also want to say that I really wish to thank him for his support.  The issues of HIV is a matter of concern.  We can take the matter further.

The issue of abused staff which was raised by Dr Luthuli is another issue that I think we need to take up on a case to case basis, as well as the hon member Mr Rehman.  The issue of the emigration of doctors is a much broader problem.  We would like to do our best.  In so far as the issue of Prince Mshiyeni, I am fully briefed about what is going on there.

We will do our best to actually make sure that the discipline is resumed in that particular institution, and that we are actually going to discipline members who have misbehaved.  It is just because we have got such a backlog that you are not able to see right now.  We have actually involved many private services to actually speed up the process of the disciplinary processes, so that we can get rid of the backlog, so that when there is something happening our members can see immediately action being taken.

The rest of the issues about the delays I will just acknowledge and say that we will need to actually do a bit more about those.

Mr Chairman, I must therefore at the end thank all the hon members for their contributions and for their support.  I wish to invite them to a departmental get-together after the show.  I am sure all the members have seen the multi-coloured invitations on the side.  Thank you very much.

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Chairman, will the hon Minister take a question please?

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR M F REHMAN:  Point of order.  Point of order.  He promised to take a question.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am afraid he has concluded his response.

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Chairman, the hon Minister promised that he would take it at the end of his speech.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  I will answer your question.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I would like to take this opportunity to thank the hon Minister for a very comprehensive response.  This brings us to the end of our debate on vote 7.  I now wish to report progress to the Speaker.

Mr Speaker, we have completed the business for the day.  As per your orders we debated the first vote this morning, vote 13 on Social Welfare and Population Development and concluded that successfully.  We have now completed the debate on vote 7 on Health.  Unless there is further orders from you, I would now like to hand over to you as an indiction of the conclusion of the Committee of Supply.  Thank you.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE ADJOURNED
	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The House resumes.  I think we have reached the end of our business for today, but before I adjourn the House I would like to know if there are any announcements from the Premier.  I understand the Minister of Agriculture has got a message from the Premier.

REV C J MTETWA:  No announcement, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The Minister of Agriculture I think has been given some messages to give to us.  I will allow him to do so.

MR N SINGH: (Minister of Agriculture):  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  I am sorry I did not talk to my colleague.  Mr Speaker, judging from the reply of our hon colleague the Minister of Health, one can assume that it must have been a very, very interesting debate because he moved from the dead in the form of cadavers to the ghosts that these cadavers seem to be creating. I do not know if those are the ghosts that are moving around in the civil service.

On the issue of the schools with no toilets, it is quite pathetic that when we were flying back from our mission today, there was quite a discussion on this issue of schools without toilets.  I am sure that the hon Premier will make some announcements in that regard tomorrow.

On behalf of the hon Premier and members of the Executive that were not here today, we would like to apologise firstly to the House, and then to our two hon colleagues that presented their budget debates today.  We are not showing disrespect to you, but there was an urgent meeting that we had to attend at Richards Bay where the ~Amakhosi~ of Uthungulu Regional Council were present.  It was a briefing on the Lubombo SDI and it was a meeting that was arranged quite some time ago.  I must report to the House that it was a very, very constructive and informative meeting.

When we arrived from there at about 3 o'clock, we were whisked off to Natalia where the hon Chairperson of the NCOP, Mr Lekota, and the Deputy Chairperson, Mr Bulelani Ngcuka had a meeting with Cabinet and members of the House here, including the leader Mr Jeffery there who is talking a lot from the other side, the Chairman of NCOP, Mrs Cronje and Mr Mike Tarr.  So once again our apologies to you, Minister of Health and to the Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions for our absence.

I would also like to place on record our appreciation to the hon Minister Mtetwa for holding the fort and keeping the flag of the Executive flying high.  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I also just wish to announce that as promised by the Chief Whip, the report on the Rules Committee has been tabled and members have got it in front of them right now.  At this point in time I would like to adjourn the House till 9 o'clock tomorrow morning.  The House adjourns.

Sorry, I have been informed by the secretaries that our session is starting at 9:30 tomorrow instead of 9:00.  So it is 9:30.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 19:22 UNTIL
	9:30 ON TUESDAY, 20 MAY 1997

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - TWELFTH SITTING DAY
	TUESDAY, 20 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 11:25 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE ACTING SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I am sorry, Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  On looking at the Order Paper for today I do not notice as an item on the Orders of the Day, adoption of our Parliamentary Rules and Orders.

I am raising it because the report of the Rules Committee was tabled yesterday.  All members, I hope, received that.  I also have in my possession the minutes of the Rules Standing Committee, their last meeting, where the way forward was resolved as follows:

	It was agreed that copies of the final corrected draft Rules be circulated to all members on that same day, ie 16 May 1997.

Now I know that that had been done.

	Meeting of the Rules Standing Committee be convened on Monday, 19 May 1997 only if members have suggested substantive amendments.

I am on the Task Team and on the Rules Committee, I am not aware of any substantive amendments that have come forward.  And then the final resolution of the Rules Committee was:

	Final draft of the Rules be tabled before the House on Tuesday, 20 May 1997 for adoption.

We have a problem, Mr Speaker, in that the reason why we have had to revise our Rules, is because we had to bring them in line with the new Constitution.  There has been a process of some eight to ten weeks during which we have worked on it.  I think all members have received at least three copies of the revised draft.  I think the House needs an explanation as to why we, it appears, will not be adopting the Rules today.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can I hear from the Chief Whip because according to the Secretary that is the list of items for discussion today that he received from the Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I am at somewhat of a disadvantage.  I was not aware this item was up for discussion and I was busy dealing with some of the business matters of the House.  I assume the Chief Whip of the ANC is dealing with the matter of the Rules of this House.

What she says is correct.  There has been an extensive process between members in this House, that is the Rules Subcommittee and the Rules Committee, to look at the revised Rules.  It has been necessary to revise the Rules to take into account the new Constitution.

For example, better accessibility to the House by members of the public, the creation of the National Council of Provinces.  She is quite correct that we have had to revise the Rules to cater for our Parliamentary Executive Board and also for a number of other things, for example such as the NCOP.

That has all been done.  It is also true that there is now a set of Rules, which has been accepted by the Rules Committee.  Unfortunately what has not happened, and it is not really a crisis as far as the House is concerned, is that, like all other parties, it has not been possible to fully inform members of this caucus as to the content of the new Rules.  The feeling was that this matter could very easily wait over until the beginning of the next session, because today is after all the very last day on which the Rules are really needed.  We function very well as it is, so there is no real crisis.  I would hope, Mr Speaker, we can leave the matter to rest where it is.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Well, that is the explanation from the Chief Whip.  Mr I C Meer.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, when somebody talks about rest I do require rest, but I get restless when we have a certain procedure.  Who decides whether the matter should rest there?  Is that a committee that decides that or is it an individual?

I say this, although I am very much against the Rules and regulations governing my life because they usually tread on my liberty, but we have a Committee.  How is it that two members of the same Committee are telling us different things?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Yes, hon Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Sorry.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can I hear Mrs Cronje first?

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Yes.  Mr Speaker, I hear the hon Chief Whip of the IFP.  It still does not get me past my problem that the Rules Committee, as a Committee, resolved that the Rules should be tabled yesterday for adoption today.

As I understand his explanation, he says the IFP caucus is not ready.  I think we should just be clear on the reasons for the delay, because that is what I understood him to say.  If I understood him correctly, I wish to actually express my concern because as I said earlier on, this process has been ongoing for at least eight to ten months with all parties involved.  Thank you, Chairperson.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, as I understand it, the point of order taken by the hon Chief Whip of the ANC was why the matter was not on the Order Paper.  The Chief Whip of the ANC and the Chief Whip of the majority party and I, and I know the Whip of the National Party was also aware of it, drafted the Order Paper yesterday, and the matter was excluded because we were aware that the caucus of the IFP still had to consider the matter.  That is why it is not on the Order Paper.

I really do not think that it is a matter to create tremendous fuss about.  The Order Paper is as the Whips have agreed and I suggest we proceed.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mr Ngidi.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I think one should take exception to what the hon Mr Burrows is saying, because I think there is a problem here.  The problem lies with the fact that the process of working out the Rules has been a long drawn one, with elaborate stages in which the Rules have gone into.  We were all made to understand that everything was ready for this House to adopt the Rules.

Now for an inexplicable reason we are told that one party is not ready.  I think from this part of the House we take strong exception to that.  I think it is a problem.  It is not a good reflection on this Government.  I think we should take strong exception to that.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Hon Chief Whip.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, Parliamentary Rules are meant to govern the way under which this Parliament operates, and all parties will agree that Rules must be perceived to be totally neutral.  I would really urge members not to make a political issue about the adoption or non-adoption of our Rules today.  We should not politicise our Rules.

There were late additions to those Rules, relating mainly to the inclusion of the Parliamentary Executive Board.  Those additions came very late in the day, in fact they were finally drafted only last Friday, I think.  So it was not possible for the IFP caucus to find an occasion to discuss those fully.  The House can argue that maybe we should have, but it was simply not possible.

There is no harm done.  The proceedings of this House have not been affected, and I would really request that with these few comments that have been made from the various parties that we now proceed with the Orders of the day.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Hon member Mr Redinger.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, I think the impasse is actually caused by the Chief Whip of the majority party himself, because the hon member yesterday morning requested that the Rules be tabled yesterday afternoon.  I think that is what has caused the problem.  Let us now accept what has been said and carry on with the business of the House.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Hon member Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I accept what Mr Redinger says.  Let us continue.  I would like to respond to the hon Mr Burrows.  I do not wish to embarrass individuals in this House more than necessary.  It was not a question of agreeing to omitting it from the Order Paper, it was a question of being aware of certain circumstances.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I still think it is my duty to bring to the attention of this House that we are actually going against a decision of the Rules Committee.  The Rules Committee has not reconvened to change their decision.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Cronje.  I think the objections or the concerns from the ANC have been noted and we are going to proceed with the Order Paper.

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

I have no announcements to make at this point.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

Mr Premier please.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to report that the Cabinet had reason to be absent from the House yesterday.  We ask for condonation by the House for this absence.  We went to Richards Bay to discuss with members of the Regional Council 1, which stretches from Richards Bay, well, all the way from Mandini right up to the border of Mozambique.  We were talking about this special development initiative, specifically the Lubombo initiative.

This requires that the traditional leaders, the communities and the council members become partners with the Government in the Province, and at National level, and to pursue this corridor development which holds a lot of potential for new job creation, for agri-businesses and for new commercial farmers to emerge.  That is the short report I wanted to give.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon Premier.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

The hon member Mr Zuma.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Mr Speaker, I would like to table the Natal Sharks Board annual report for 1995/96.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I also wish to table the report of the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature which will be circulated to members, and also wish to announce that there is another point which will be 8.9.  Another matter of urgent public importance.  We have just been requested by the hon member Mr Mabuyakhulu.  We are going to debate it this afternoon.  Mr Hamilton.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Yes, thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to table the report of the Economic Affairs and Tourism Portfolio Committee and the KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Amendment Bill, 1997. 

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Having dealt with the tabling of reports and Motions.  Oh, Mr Premier please.

THE PREMIER:  I am in a bit of a quandary, Mr Speaker.  There are the reports 1 and 2, if I can call it that, of the Auditor-General.  I have been asked to table these reports but as far as I understand it is the Speaker who tables these reports.  Nevertheless, I do table them.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Well, I was not aware, Mr Premier.  I am sorry about that.  I was not aware that there were those reports.  Having been tabled I think the House will accept that.



7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this House that:

	NOTING

	The continuing violence in Richmond, and noting further the contribution that the exposure of the truth about the involvement, past or present of any individuals and/or parties in propagating this unacceptable state of affairs could make to restoring normality and acknowledging the unanimous decision of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security to recommend the appointment of a Commission of Inquiry and other steps.

	THIS HOUSE CHARGE the hon Premier with the specific implementation, as a matter of urgency, of the resolution taken by the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security following its consideration of the findings of the Richmond No-Go Zone Subcommittee.

Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  Mr Cele.

MR B H CELE:  Yes.  From this side of the House, the ANC will support the motion, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Hon Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Well, Mr Speaker, the hon member in question is no longer a member of this House.  So I do not know how I can conduct a commission of inquiry concerning someone who is not a member of this House.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I have another notice of motion, but I understand Mr Nel gave a notice.

MR W U NEL:  Yes, that is right.

MR A RAJBANSI:  So we are not discussing that motion.

MR W U NEL:  We are not discussing it.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I have my own notice of motion.  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of this hon House as follows:

	That this House applauds the efforts of the hon Premier and also that of the hon members of the Cabinet for implementing the programme of good governance which is effective and clean administration;

	that it be noted that the Province has received negative publicity when acts of fraud and corruption were being unearthed, sometimes the publicity was also generated by certain members for cheap politicking;

	that it be also noted, especially during this sitting of the Legislature that the strong arm of the law against unclean administration was evident; that the Province is developing; there is delivery, etc on many fronts in spite of severe financial and other constraints; and

	THEREFORE it be resolved that all the members of this hon House continue to unite in our fight, above party politics, wrong-doings, poverty, disease and ignorance until such time every tear is removed from every eye.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Any other motion?

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

At this point I wish to transform the House into the Committee of Supply.  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I notice that we have an annual report of the Sharks Board.  Can we know when we are debating the "Sharks Department"?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Well, that is not on my Order Paper, Mr Rajbansi.  So we are not going to be debating it.  At this point I wish to transform the House into the Committee of Supply and request ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe to take the Chair and debate vote 6 and vote 2.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE
~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE TAKES THE CHAIR

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

VOTE 6: DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE AND AUXILIARY SERVICES

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The business of the Committee of Supply resumes.  I would now call upon the hon Premier, Dr Ngubane, to present his budget speech.  Thank you.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  This is the budget vote : Department of Finance and Auxiliary Services.

Mr Chairman, I present here today for deliberation by your hon House the budget for the Department of Finance for the financial year ending 31 March 1998.  The mission of the Department is "to provide and promote an efficient and effective financial administration and management as well as specialised services to the Province of KwaZulu-Natal".

In the pursuance of the broad objectives of the Department, five supporting programmes have been identified.  These programmes are:

-	Administration
-	Treasury
-	Financial Management Services
-	Gaming and Betting.

The main thrusts of the activities of the Department are found in programmes Treasury and Financial Management Services.

It will be remembered that the Gaming and Betting function have been shifted to the Department of the Premier.  The formalisation of that shift by the Provincial Service Commission has now been received and therefore the appropriation for future years will be done in the correct department. 

ADMINISTRATION  :  R4,927 MILLION

The main purpose of this programme is to enable the Department of Finance to finance the management of the Department.  This programme reflects a decrease of R960 000 when compared with the amount provided in the previous financial year.  This decrease can be ascribed to the reduction in personnel and related expenditure as a result of the purification of the departmental post establishment.

Just in case members here are at a loss as to what I mean.  We have looked at all the funded vacancies within the Department of Finance and have rationalised those funded posts which are not filled, and therefore effected a saving.

TREASURY  :   R64,383 MILLION

The main function of the Treasury is the planning and control of Provincial expenditure.  This institution provides the link between the Province and the National Government regarding financial administration matters.  This link ensures that the Province is in keeping with the thinking at a National level regarding State finances and expenditures.

It is in this regard that the Treasury has embarked upon the development of a Medium Term Expenditure Framework, popularly known as the MTEF.  The MTEF is a planning tool which enables the Government to embark upon a multi-term budget planning.  The benefits associated with the use of the MTEF include certainty of revenue over time, the ability to define and prioritise expenditure for the planning period and most importantly, the ability to link policy with the budget.

I can therefore state that as from the ensuing financial year, 1998/1999, the Province will have a multi-term budget.  It is my belief that an improved interaction with all stakeholders will be achieved with the adoption of this approach.  In order to communicate our new approach effectively, Cabinet has resolved that a Budget Indaba be held.

The main purpose of the Budget Indaba is to define and agree on Provincial priorities.  The priorities should be in line with the demands identified in the Provincial growth and development strategy.  We are pleased that the Province's growth and development strategy has been classified to be among the better ones in the country and will be incorporated with ease to the National growth and development strategy.  It is important therefore that we consider it seriously when we plan the future budgets.

For the Budget Indaba to be as inclusive as possible, Cabinet has agreed that it should include all Cabinet members, members of the Finance Portfolio Committee, Chairpersons of other Portfolio Committees, all Secretaries of departments and all budget controllers.  The date of the Indaba will be communicated as soon as all arrangements are finalised.  We intend to bring into that discussion experts from the National Treasury and the Development Bank of South Africa.

The Treasury also deals with Tender Board matters.  This House passed the Tender Board Amendment Act which was assented to by the Premier on 12 May 1997 and was published on 19 May 1997.  The Department has submitted the regulations drawn in terms of section 26 of that Act to the Senior State Law advisor for certification before submission is made thereof to the Finance Portfolio Committee.

The implementation of the Tender Board Amendment Act is still in terms of the original plan.  It is envisaged that on 1 July 1997 the new Tender Board will be in place.  As contained in the Tender Board Amendment Act, the Finance Portfolio Committee will play a pivotal role in the appointment of the members of the Tender Board.  The interim arrangements to bring about a new Tender Board envisage a six weeks delay in the award of tenders, bearing in mind that there has been awards of tenders for contracts not longer than 12 months.

It is hoped that the multi-term expenditure planning coupled with delivery through the revised tendering system, will enhance delivery and at the same time contribute effectively to improved employment levels and economic growth.

FINANCIAL MANAGEMENT SERVICES

The main aim of this programme is to secure the financial management of Provincial departments.  The main focus being on salary administration, financial control and financial management.

In order to optimise our output in this programme, a multifaceted strategy had to be adopted.  This includes the partnership with the private sector in the combat of fraud that seems to be the third largest concern in KwaZulu-Natal after Tuberculosis and AIDS.  The Department has requested approval from Cabinet to reduce cheque payments.  This was accepted and efforts are being made that by the end of this financial year all salaries will be paid directly into banking accounts.

Over and above this, a computerised Biometrical Access System to the Financial Management System, has been developed.  The system allows for the verification of each transaction and matches the amount involved with the authority of the user.  This system ensures that the cheques generated can be traced to the source using the thumb print of the user.  Should any of these be fraud transactions, the evidence will stand in court.

At this point I want to pause and deal with fraud.  You will notice that almost all Ministers that presented their budgets here have complained about the amount of fraud that obtains in our Province.  I am fully behind their efforts to eradicate fraud.  The irony of this is the inadequacy of the criminal justice system.  I think it is ironic that when everyone is concerned about the direction of resources to the services for which they are intended, the justice system tends to let us down.

I am fully supportive of human rights.  These rights, however, should be weighed against the losses that we sustain because of theft.  If a person steals drugs from hospitals, pension money and computer equipment, that person has, in my view, forfeited the benefits of humanity.  I think that a balance must be struck.

It is unfair for departmental inspectors and the police to work months on an investigation and effect an arrest and the criminal walks out the following day on an incomparable bail.  We urge the Minister of Justice to urgently review this position.

Bail should fit the crime.  My Department will do everything within our means to help eradicate fraud at all levels of Government.

What of course is really worrying is now a new phenomenon where, because Ministers are effective in fighting against fraud, stealing of Government property, that Ministers and senior officials of Government now are getting threats against their lives.  This we reject with the contempt that it deserves.

GAMING AND BETTING

I would like now to deal with functions relating to gaming and betting.  The Chief Directorate: Gaming and Betting has had a very fruitful and productive year.

This component has continued with the existing regulatory functions in respect of the horse racing and betting industry, which alone brings in some R50 million each year in the form of betting tax.  In addition, great progress has been made with the implementation of a regulated gaming industry in this Province.

Members are familiar with the process of the adoption of the KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Act, 1996 as well as the appointment of the Gambling Board.  I do not want to dwell on these issues but would rather concentrate on the current activities and the matters before us.

On taking over the responsibility for gaming and betting, I was most concerned with the effect the closing down of the industry would have on employment in our Province.  In this regard I indicated that as a result of appeals made, especially from the employees of the former illegal industry, I would investigate the possibility of issuing temporary licences.  An opinion from senior legal counsel stressed that it would not be legally competent to amend the Province's Gambling Act to allow for the issue of more than five casino licences, albeit in the form of temporary licences, as this would be in conflict with the National Gambling Act.

In view of this, there was very little point in pursuing the question of amending the KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Act to make provision for temporary licences and other options had to be found.  Together with the KwaZulu-Natal Gambling Board it was agreed that no amendments be made to the Act to allow for temporary casino licences but as an alternative, steps should immediately be taken to issue the five casino licences as contemplated in the National Gambling Act for KwaZulu-Natal as well as to continue with the fast tracking of the route and site operations.

The Board has already completed its first task, namely, the draft macro plan for the licensing of route and site operators, as prescribed in Section 6 of the Gambling Act, 1996.  This draft macro plan was recently referred to me and I published it in the Provincial Gazette for general information and comments on 9 May 1997 with the public having until 27 May 1997 to submit their comments.

In order, however, to ensure the widest possible participation by all concerned in the finalisation of the macro plan, I have referred the matter to my Portfolio Committee who will now hold public hearings before finalising their comments on the draft.  I urge all interested parties to use both the aforementioned opportunities to air their views, and give constructive input into the finalisation of the macro plan.

The macro plan contains proposals for the regulation and licensing of route operators and site operators.  In the case of route operators, the Board has recommended that they be licensed to have up to 1 000 gaming machines or limited pay out machines in their possession for installation in the premises of site operators.  Industry sources have demonstrated that this number of machines will allow a route operator investing in the industry to operate a viable, if not extremely profitable, business.  In the interests of a free market approach and the development of entrepreneurial opportunities for the small and medium business person, the Board has recommended that there be no cap on the number of route operators permitted in the Province which, together with the first mentioned recommendation regarding the maximum of 1 000 machines, will mean that it will not be possible for two or three big operators to dominate the market.

In the case of site operators, the Board has recommended that there be two categories of sites.  The A-type sites will be premises such as public bars, shebeens or taverns and betting outlets which will be allowed to have a maximum of five limited pay out machines.  The B-type sites will be larger establishments that provide mainly adult entertainment, such as a bingo hall, a race track and other venues which fall within the definition of this type of site and they will be permitted to have a maximum of 100 machines per site.

Although the macro plan contains many recommendations, it is not my intention to discuss them all at this time, but I believe that the fundamental recommendations that I have just described, will provide opportunities to the small and medium entrepreneur which will be complimented by the business opportunities that will emerge with the licensing of the "big five" casinos.  I would warn, however, against forming conclusions on the draft macro plan before studying the complete document.

With regard to the licensing of the "big five" casinos I would like to report that recently, with the support of my Cabinet, I asked the Board to take steps to fast track the issue of the five casino licences, which the Province is permitted to issue in terms of the National Act.

The Board has referred its proposed plan of action to me and I am satisfied that every effort is being made to give priority to both the issue of route and site licences and the issue of the "big five" casino licences.

In this regard I can inform you that if all the deadlines in the proposed action plan are met, we will be in a position to release the invitation to apply for a casino licence, that is the request for proposal on 18 June 1997 and to accept applications for route and site licences by mid July 1997.

If dealt with correctly, the gaming industry has the potential to meet the Province's objectives for the development of a gambling industry, which are the promotion of tourism, the creation of job opportunities and the economic and social development of the people of KwaZulu-Natal.  One must, however, be mindful of the potential gambling has to impact negatively on our social structures and to take steps to safeguard the general public good.

Finally, Mr Chairman, I have listened to the unemployed workers, and to this end I have put a plan of action in place that will ensure that the legal industry is up and running in the quickest possible time, whilst at the same time providing a further opportunity for all interested parties to voice their opinions and their concerns.

AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVICES

Provisioning Administration

Apart from endeavouring to satisfy the ever increasing demands of departments for standard stock items from the Central Provincial Store during the 1997/98 financial year, the Provisioning Administration sub-directorate of my Department will be actively embarking on the implementation of the new Provisioning Administration System.  The stores administration system in place in the erstwhile Natal Provincial Administration has worked extremely well but has now become rather outdated and needs to be phased out.  Support and approval was obtained from heads of all Provincial departments in mid 1995 to implement the Provisioning Administration System which is to be a rewritten, user-friendly version of the Department of State Expenditure's VAS system that has been specially adapted to meet all the administration's requirements.

The development and rewriting of the system through the auspices of the Department of State Expenditure and its consultants progressed reasonably during 1996/97 and four pilot sites in different departments of this administration were identified to spearhead the implementation.  The final amendments to the system have been done and the pilot sites which have been at an advanced stage of readiness to implement the system should be live by the start of or very early in the new financial year.

In all, some 800 administration institutions/stores throughout the Province are destined to either change from the old NPA system or take on the new system over the next five to six years.  Contact is being maintained with departments and already priority sites have been identified for the ongoing implementation of the system in 1997/98.

The administration is thus pioneering the PAS system and it is the Department of State Expenditure's intention that this upgraded version will eventually replace VAS nationally.  Tremendous interest is already being shown by other administrations and State departments in the new system.  The Provisioning Administration sub-directorate of my Department has an extremely challenging time ahead of it overseeing the implementation and maintenance of the PAS system throughout the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration region but views the project with great enthusiasm and intends to make it a showpiece for the rest of the country.

Information Technology

Besides the main function of providing an overall professional Information Technology Services to all the Provincial departments, this sub-programme has embarked on the following new ventures:

-	Tribal Levy System for the Department of Traditional and Environment Affairs
-	Asset Register System for the Treasury as well as all other departments
-	Document Imaging as well a Management Information System to be utilised by all Provincial departments.

Two other systems that are being rewritten due to outdated technology are the Stock Control System as well as the Hospital Billing System.

Mr Chairman, I intend to have a situation where we can converse and reach decisions with all Cabinet Ministers through E-Mail.  We run a Government in different centres and this creates fragmentation of administration.  It is therefore important that we invest in a Communications Technology System that will seek to reduce this fragmentation and consequent inefficiency in Government.

With this information given above, I move that the budget of the Department of Finance be accepted by this House.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON: [According to the list in front of me, I am going to ask the hon member Mr D H Makhaye to start his speech.  He has 15 minutes.  Thank you]

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Mr Chairman, once again it gives me pleasure to speak on behalf of the Finance Portfolio Committee of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

I must first thank the Minister of Finance and his staff for having been extremely co-operative with the Finance Portfolio Committee throughout the year.  The Portfolio Committee is lucky to have MECs for Finance who are really civilised and urbane.  We first had Mr Senzele Mhlungu as our Finance Minister and now we have Dr Ben Ngubane.

The Finance Committee has met on a continuous basis for the last five weeks.  Over the last 12 months we have met monthly to examine the expenditure of each department.

The strong point of the Committee is that once working as the Committee, we cease to think in narrow, sectarian or even demagogic partisan ways.  We have been able to forge unity of purpose among all the members of the Committee, through the scientific application of the laws of negation of negation, of unity and struggle of the opposites and from quantity to quality.

Where we have differed we have not adopted a confrontational nor an adversarial attitude, but a joint problem solving method.  In the process of interaction with each other we have developed a unique culture of the Committee, a culture that has made us one family, a culture of mutual respect and mutual confidence.  We are singing the same songs from the same hymn book, with the same tune.

I must also thank the Finance Subcommittee, which we created in order to facilitate the work of the Portfolio Committee.  Of course without the Committee shirking its responsibility.  The subcommittee is composed of Mr John Aulsebrook, Dr Mike Sutcliffe, Mr Gordon Haygarth and Mr Wessel Nel.

With these few words I support the vote of the Minister of Finance.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you to the hon member].  On the list I will now call upon the hon member Mr Konigkramer.  You have got ten minutes to speak.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, in most sessions of Parliament there are very rare moments during a debate when something really significant happens, and to me one such incident happened yesterday, during the response by the hon Minister of Health, the hon Dr Mkhize.

Those members that were present in the House, will remember that at one stage the hon Mr Burrows, suggested in fairly forceful terms that all the schools without toilets and all those without running water should forthwith be closed.

MR R M BURROWS:  I did not actually, but that will do.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Yes, the hon Mr Burrows says that is not so but I think it is.  Anyway, be that as it may, we all know the hon Mr Burrows is a perceptive debater and is a caring soul, so I am quite sure he meant well.

What was more significant, he also referred to the open sewers in Cato Crest and suggested that some swift action be taken about those.

MR R M BURROWS:  Put pressure on the Durban Metro.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  I think the really significant thing was the response from the hon Minister, because he was clearly, I think almost outraged by the suggestion and then revealed something very significant, and that is that when he was at school there were four classes in one room and there were no toilets, and yet today the same the hon Dr Mkhize is the Minister of Health.  So you can see that he, although he came from a school where there were four classes in one room and had no toilets, he has been very lucky and today he is the Minister of Health.

The reason I mention this is that this I think indicates that, and as I have mentioned this in this House before, he has been one of the lucky ones.  What we need to accept, particularly looking at the budget, is that we are heading, I believe in this Province, and in this country, for a real crisis.  It is going to be a crisis of monumental proportions that I believe has the capacity to derail democracy and plunge this country into chaos.

The reason for that is that as is well known, 35% of the population are unemployed, and I have said in this House and I want to say it again that we will ignore those people at our peril.

The indicators of the crisis to come are several, but one of them is crime, which I think is now really beginning to reach proportions where it is getting out of hand.  There are indicators, if you look at the opinion and surveys you will notice that for example 59% of all Africans in our country have indicated that they believe that foreigners in this country should be summarily arrested and repatriated.  Among whites this percentage is 79% and among Indians this is 64%.

What does this tell us, Mr Chairman?  It tells us that the people that are unemployed are now no longer prepared to accept the situation, and they are prepared to have dramatic things done to have this reversed.

Also if you look at a recent survey which was done in our Province you will see that 60% of all black Africans now favour local policing.  I do not want to make party politics about this again, but I think there is a lesson to be learnt, and that is that people are no longer prepared to tolerate the current situation, and the only way to effectively address this situation is to give real original policing powers to the provinces.  This is what the people want.

The next point I want to make, and the members of this House know this, but we do not do enough about it, and that is that we, particularly in our Province again, are faced with a veritable youth avalanche which is beginning to descend on this Province.

In 1993, 30% of the population of KwaZulu-Natal was under the age of 14, and there are indications that 50% of the population of KwaZulu-Natal is under the age of 20.  If you look at that, what I call a youth avalanche, and you look at that against other indicators in the Province, particularly rural poverty, unemployment of at least 35%, changing education systems and underemployment on a very large scale, I think we have a very explosive mix.

Mr Chairman, also if you look at what is happening in our education system, particularly at tertiary level, again I think there are very, very serious indicators.  If you look at the eruptions at our universities and at our technikons there are real, real danger signs of what is facing this Province.  There are those that have attempted to just dismiss what is going on in racist terms and basically saying, "Well, what do you expect from black people", and I would counsel against that because these people are not reading the signs.

What is being demonstrated, I believe, at these tertiary institutions of education, is that the difference between being at a university or a technikon and not being there literally can mean the difference between life and death.  It can mean the difference between having a job and not having a job.  It can mean the difference between having a house and not having a house.  It can be the difference between being able to feed your family and the extended family and not having one.  We will ignore this at our peril and I believe this is something this Parliament in particular needs to address.

Having said that by way of background, I think what we in this House need to ponder very carefully on, is that we must stop quibbling about the budget.  We must begin to look very seriously at what we are doing.

As I have indicated earlier, we in this Province in particular need to pay very special attention as to how we spend our money.  We need to make absolutely sure that we spend it in such a way that it is actually going to result in the creation of jobs.  It is no good spending R6 billion on education, and then educating people literally for hopelessness, for a situation where these people, when they come out of schools, there will be no hope of a job.  It is time that we in this Legislature began seriously to address these issues.

Having said that, I am very pleased to note that the hon Premier, has indicated now that there will be an Indaba on the budget.  It is so that we still live with the relics of the past in that the budget is historically based.  It has been impossible for this Province to actually set its own priorities and hopefully now for the first time, and as I say, I am very pleased to note from the hon Premier that this is going to happen, that we can actually spend our money in such a way that not only can we give people a better life now, but that we can avoid the real disaster which is coming.  Unless we address the problem of the children that are going to come out of school and there is no hope whatsoever of a job.

Having said that, with those few remarks, it gives me great pleasure to support the budget of the Premier.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Next on the list is the hon member I C Meer for 12 minutes.

MR I C MEER:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I want this Legislature with all sincerity to pledge to our new Premier, the hon Mr Ben Ngubane, that under him we will abolish corruption, fraud and theft in this Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

Let us remember that Parliament does not make money, Parliament does not earn money, Parliament spends money; Parliament has a tremendous responsibility to see that every department of this Legislature firmly practices frugality, efficiency and works in the interest of each and every person who constitute the millions, who are relying on us for this new change that has taken place, where the shadows of the past, the darkness of ~apartheid~ is lifting, and a new dawn has commenced.

In that spirit, I want to suggest to this House that the new dispensation from the Central Government must be welcomed.  We will decide how much money is to be spent on particular portfolios.  Just as we have reached unanimity and common purpose in the Finance Committee, we hope we will reach it in the Legislature as a whole, and stop blaming the Central Government for how we divide and how we spend that money.

Let me make this point, that when we were denied the fruits of capitalism under the past racial white dominated Governments, our forefathers found a solution.  We, some of us, received our education, not because the grant came from the Central Government but the uplift came when our women carried a huge basket on their head with fruit and vegetables and went from house to house, sold the fruit and vegetables, saved that money and sent us to university for education.  This is the time to pay tribute to those people and to learn from them what frugality means.

A single cent that is spent wrongly, is a blot on the name of each and every person in this Legislature because the buck stops not with the Ministers, the buck stops with us.  We must plan in such a way that the money which is taken from the poorest of the poor, when he goes to buy and pays 14% VAT, that amount is properly spent.

We as the Legislature act as a watchdog of the people.  From them we are temporarily drawing on their sovereignty.  Sovereignty does not rest with us, it rests with the people.  We are merely trustees of that sovereignty and one of the things for which we have been sent to this Parliament.  One of the things for which we have made such a tremendous sacrifice as individuals and organisations, went to prison, went into exile and so on, was to see that there is justice and equity given to our people.

We never asked for equality, in the sense that the wrong type of high living of the white ruling class should become our standard of living.  We wanted equity not equality.  We did not want to be called the Nationalists who were giving some youth R30 000 a month salary that we must do likewise, follow that as a measure of equality.  We want equity not equality.  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR I C MEER:  I do not want interruptions from my friend because I may say something which he might not like about the shadow that still exists in our midst.  [LAUGHTER]  But let me make this point, that when we are told that R75 per child is what we can afford and not R135 per grant, that is an important lesson that we have to learn.  We have to learn the lesson that perhaps we have gone wrong in saying that our people should get equality with the amount of money that was being robbed from the people who made that money, and that is the majority who were denied the right to have a decent living in this country.

I would appeal as a new event, a new procedure, let every Minister draw up a budget of the needs of the Department, and I want to thank Mrs Millin when she drew a distinction between needs and want.  What is necessary is needed, what you may want is too expensive even for a cent extra.  What is needed in each department, let us say that we require for education not R6 million but R7 million, and then that is based not on building a school, which is going to cost us R32 million, but schools which can be built for R4 million and not R32 million.

We did that.  We planned schools.  I was connected with something like 260 odd schools.  I can prove it to the final cent that what the Public Works Department, at that time budgeted for that particular type of school was 20 000 Pounds and we were able to build that school for 10 000 Pounds, because we were dealing with public funds.  We knew how to use it carefully and with frugality.

We reached a point in my own area, that is the Inanda district, where at Ottawa we got the whole community on the weekends to come and build schools.  This is what you call a community driven programme.  The Ottawa School is perhaps the monument to the spirit of self-help.  Lawyers, doctors, school inspectors, shopkeepers all came under the supervision of qualified bricklayers and we laid bricks on Saturdays and Sundays.  The Tongaat Bakery which was owned by a very important Greek gentleman gave us bread free for those weekends and similarly we had vegetables given.  We cooked a big pot of food, we ate and we built that school.  That entire school cost about R300 to R400 and is one of the finest schools.  In fact the people who made bricks, realised what we were doing and gave us almost the entire bricks needed for the school completely free.

It is that type of spirit which we want now.  Let us remember that when the Government was dominating us, we went out and did the work which that Government should have been doing.  They did not give schools to the Indians because they were to be repatriated.  They did not give schools to the Africans because the Africans were told not to go beyond that stage where they could remain permanently as low unskilled workers.  In that situation we assisted the State and built schools.  It is now more than ever necessary, now that we have a democracy to call on our people to supplement whatever they did in the past in the same way, to see that our financial problem is resolved.

Let me appeal to our Premier, please give us guidance and lead us.  We are landed with R39 billion a year, in interest alone, for the sins committed by those who ruled and oppressed us.  This amount should be written off as a debt.  Africa is demanding that.  If we have that amount available, R39 billion a year, I have calculated that of that amount at least between R5 billion to R8 billion comes from this Province.  We can solve all our problems in respect of education, in respect of housing and in respect of the health needs of this particular Province.

While the whole of Africa is demanding the writing off of the debts, we have remained silent on it, except the NGOs have taken it up.  Only recently the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church supported it.  It is our duty to get all political parties to go into this matter carefully and come to a positive decision in the interest of our people at large.

Why should I be made to pay, the poorest of the poor should be made to pay 14% of VAT, a portion of which goes towards that debt.  Not only the payment of the debt, but payment of interest on that debt, for wrongs committed when we went around our neighbours and got ourselves involved in a military war against people who were demanding their freedom.  That is the sins of ~apartheid~, we will not be liable for it, we should not be liable for it and if we get that money back we will solve our problems.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR I C MEER:  This is an occasion on which we pay tribute, to all those Ministers who have opposed corruption, we have had a very important pronouncement from the Department of Welfare and the hon the Minister in charge of that Department.  We had a very interesting disclosure splashed in the papers, of our hon the Minister of Health as leading in this field of ending corruption.

We want to now pledge ourselves, that we will have good governance and good governance depends on our own frugality.  Good governance depends on eliminating all that is wrong.  Therefore in supporting this particular budget, I want to pay tribute to our Minister in charge, and I want to say that he will get the fullest support of each and every individual, so that under him as a Premier we will make KwaZulu-Natal a clean Government, completely ending the present wrongs that are going on.  Thank you very much indeed.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  On the list I will now call upon the hon member Mr G Haygarth.  You have got 13 minutes.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, in so far as the budget is concerned, the National Party supports the Cabinet's commitment to good governance and a corruption and crime-free Provincial administration.  We note with pleasure the responses that have been made by the various Ministers to their action in this regard.

Good governance presupposes a transparent and responsible accountable handling of public funds.  It is for this reason that the National Party has called for the transparent and multi-party handling of Public Works.

The Minister is aware, that this morning, discussions have taken place in regard to certain issues that are on the budget.  Subsequent to that meeting, advertisements were delivered to various people, to show that there were some tenders called for as it was described.  I will say that the documents actually are calling for pre-qualification of tenderers and they were divided into between buildings 1 and 2.  Buildings 1 and 2 are for the Department of the Premier and the office of the Director General.  Building 2 which is for administrative extensions.  The third building was defined as the chamber for the Department of Traditional Leaders.

If one takes the square footage of buildings 1 and 2 individually, which is 7 000 and 17 800 square metres, a total of 25 000 square metres.  Multiply it by roughly a building cost of R3 000 per square metre, one sees that buildings 1 and 2 are effectively in the order of 75 million, which is basically what is on the estimates.  We have accepted the Minister's assurance that that amount on the estimate is only for buildings 1 and 2, and that there is no intention at this stage of beginning the construction of building 3, until such time as funds have been provided for that purpose.

We note with pleasure that the Minister was prepared to accept a proposed amendment to the Finance Committee's recommendations, providing for the multi-party Public Works Committee, to review all of the plans for major new works in this Province wherever they be situated in this Province, and on that basis any new construction would be considered both by the Portfolio Committee and the Portfolio Committee to which the works were to apply.  So we are satisfied that what is in hand is only in relation to buildings 1 and 2.

The second point that I made was the question of the subject of fraud and corruption.  I want to say first of all, that this party congratulates those members of the Department of Finance, who have come up with initiating solutions to the problems of expenditure control.  The works that, under your leadership, have been undertaken in this regard have been substantial.  They will certainly assist, they will not prevent exclusively the problems of fraud and corruption because there are literally thousands of people who can become involved in it.

What we want to say is that fraud and corruption exists at every level of Government, not only in this country but in every country of the world.  So this Province must not be treated as something unique in that regard.

Furthermore, fraud and corruption involve two parties to the equation.  On the one side, there are the employees, the directors, whoever they might be, of various institutions, and on the other side the employees of the Provincial Administration.  Without the collusion of people on both sides, it is not possible to have the fraud and corruption that we have been seeing in existence today.

The first recommendation that was made by the Finance Committee was contained in the recommendation on page 2 of its document which applies to all departments.  At the bottom of the page it says that:

	On a monthly basis departments must provide the relevant Portfolio Committee with a breakdown on expenditure to date and any projected overruns must be brought to the notice of the Portfolio Committees immediately they come to the attention of the departmental Secretary General.

Our Chairman was talking about the teamwork that goes on in the Portfolio Committee on Finance.  What is necessary is teamwork in respect of every Portfolio Committee and the Secretary General of the Department concerned.  The relationship must be one of a team having respect for one another so that the Head of Department, the Secretary General, can have confidence to come to his Portfolio Committee and bear his soul.  In doing so he keeps them fully informed.  Where they see excess votes developing, because that generally speaking is one of the first signs that are indicative of fraud taking place, excess votes on any vote gives you an indication that there is a problem there that needs to be looked at.

If the Portfolio Committee is willing to assist that Director General or the Secretary General in respect of his problems, then together you go forward to solve that problem.  If, on the other hand, the Portfolio Committee looks at it on the basis of crucifying the Head of Department concerned, they are then not going to get his co-operation, which is vital to working together to find solutions for this problem.

I am emphasising the need to get information which is indicative of problems coming, and to work with the secretary generals and their staff to achieve solutions to these problems.

In so far as the process of fraud is concerned, there are two basic methods by which this is achieved.  The first group we shall call the false claims basis.  That includes the variety of frauds which you have been seeing come to light under the investigations which are taking place at the present time, and one thinks of the various types of businesses involved.  There has been the cost of transport, the cost of medical services and things of that nature.  They are all a result of collusion between people in the service and people in the private sector.  Again I am emphasising that that sort of fraud cannot be undertaken without that assistance.

What we need is a commitment from the business community that they equally are going to eradicate fraud from within their own establishments, and for those who set out to trap often, employees in the public service.

The second type of fraud is perpetrated in either major construction or building contracts.  There the collusion exists between, on the one hand, the parties who prepare the documentation for the construction or building works concerned, and the relationship between those people and the prospective tenderer to whom they would like to see the job to be given.

What happens in these circumstances, is that the party drawing up the schedule of quantities has specific knowledge in regard to the site and the works to be undertaken.  He so draws those specific quantities in a way in which the contractor can submit his tender with the price for the various schedule of quantities, that if there are alterations in the contract which the agent, the professional, whoever it be who has designed the contract, that there are going to be alterations.  So the amount of quantities which are going to be added are put in at a high rate in the tender and those which are going to be reduced put in at a low rate.  The balance of that is, that the effect is that the person can construct a tender which makes it the lowest, but when the alterations are effected a considerable sum of money is generated for that particular tenderer.

It is those types of tenders, where in the interests of the Province, one should have in regard to the planning, the estimating and budgeting, the assistance not only of the Multi-Party Portfolio Committee, but perhaps a technical committee of independent professionals, who have a look at the documentation to avoid this thing happening and the cost ultimately escalating for the parties concerned.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Now in regard to the first one that I talked of, the false claims one, I understand and I am trying to follow it through, that in the United States of America there is an Act called the False Claims Act.  It is known as the whistle and blow Act, because what it does is encourages, and if you think of the United States and the contracts for NASA and the rockets and whatever goes off, the billions of Dollars that are involved in these major contracts, the whistle and blow syndrome is an opportunity to encourage people with a financial reward to give the necessary information so essential, to finding out where this corruption is taking place.

If my information is correct, an amount of 15% of the amount recovered by the Government from such schemes is given to the party involved who enables the people to be brought to book and the amounts to be recovered.

The other sort of arrangement that can be considered is, for example, in the Health Department you have a section called the MEDVAC account, and the R25 million that is involved in that has recently been increased by some R6 to R7 million to raise it into the R30 million category.

While one understands that the price of medicines have been going up, one is a little worried that perhaps some of that money was being provided for the fraud and corruption that takes place.  The suggestion was made last year that that operation ought to be privatised and it was received, like my colleague here would describe it is as from a dead sheep.  Nobody was interested in doing that sort of thing.

If you have a privatised operation, where you put the responsibility for running that pharmaceutical department in the hospital which provides medicines for the whole works, you eliminate the corruption that can take place between the suppliers of the medical requirements, and the parties within that organisation, and you limit your potential to requisitions between the hospital service and the supplier then of the medicine.

When we asked this time as the Finance Committee, that we have an inspection of this facility, the answer we got from the SG was, "Well, you must ask the DG about it".

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member's time is over please.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Because of time, this House will adjourn now until 2 o'clock in the afternoon.  Thank you].

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED AT 12:46
	RESUMED AT 14:00

RESUMED DEBATE: VOTE 6: DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE AND AUXILIARY SERVICES

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  The business of the Committee of Supply resumes.  We continue our debate.  On the list I would ask the hon member Mrs N C Mkhize, I do not know whether she is available.  Okay, we will skip her.

AN HON MEMBER:  Nobody whipping the IFP?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then next on the list we will ask the hon member Mr W U Nel.  You have got six minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Thank you.  Mr Chairman, I would like to endorse the words of the hon member, my friend Mr I C Meer, when he explained how in his experience they managed to build schools for virtually half the price of the official tenders.  I believe that if we want to get anywhere, then we are certainly going to have to adopt all sorts of measures, to get value for money to make these Rands on the budget stretch further.

We are encouraged by some of the remarks of the hon Premier in his speech.  The fact that we are going now officially to the multi-term budget, the Budget Indaba that is envisaged, the new and very exciting Biometric Access System which will vastly improve security.  Might I say I was disappointed that when this thing was shown to members of the Committee only three people arrived to watch that presentation.  I think it is a very exciting and cheap-at-the-price development for this Province, and might well make us the leader in this country in that respect, which is nice to know.

We welcome also the measures to combat fraud which we have seen in many of the departments.  I might caution that, whilst we share the sentiments over bail, the issue is not the amount of bail, the issue is how you apply the criteria, because the purpose is not to make the amount so big that the person cannot afford it.  Our maxim is always that you are innocent till proved guilty.  The issue is simply, is there a risk that the person will commit a crime while out on bail?  Is there a risk that he could intimidate witnesses?  Is there a risk that the person would not be present for the hearing at a later stage?  Is there a risk of tampering with evidence.  For that reason bail is set at a level, if at all, at a level which will entice the person to at least present themselves and to comply with bail conditions.

There were remarks about gambling.  I will not spend time on that, but to say that sadly the Democratic Party is still not able to support this vote because now we have introduced into this vote the R158 million which previously was in the Premier's vote.  We had no indication of the process and the criteria other than what has been given before.  No assessment as to whether the deadlines can be achieved and we heard that the deadlines would be the end of June.  We believe those cannot be achieved for tabling projects and approving them.  Our conclusion is that the money will not be wisely spent and that at the end of the day that would be a pity.  The time for reprioritisation is before the budget is approved and that is why we move our amendments.

But opportunity beckons for this Province.  We all want progress for this Province, we want the best for our people.  We really want the economy to grow, jobs to be created, the basic needs of people to be serviced and disabled children, disadvantaged people to be helped.  The actions of political parties in this House tend to sabotage this every single day.  It seems the only consistent thing we can expect in this Province is the inconsistency in the behaviour of political parties.

For that reason investors sit around and wait and they must say, we will wait until they sort themselves out.  We will wait until they know what they want or otherwise if we get frustrated we will even go elsewhere.

I want to make a plea to this Government especially, let us now start having some consistency in our decisions and in our goals.  Two issues illustrate this very clearly just in the last couple of days.  For weeks and months members of these minority parties here and members of the IFP battled against the ANC intransigence to get an investigation going in Richmond.

I am sure the IFP members all remember Gengeshe.  They remember Pateni and Smozomeni where tens of their members were cruelly killed and that is why we fought for that investigation.  Now we have the ridiculous situation where members on this side of the House support our motion to appoint a commission to complete that investigation and the IFP has now turned the other way.  It is not an investigation against a specific individual, it is actually just an attempt to get to the truth of it.

The other issue is that of the buildings in ~Ulundi~, where again we are now faced with a ghost building.  We are told the building was never for the House of Traditional Leaders, it was never approved.  The adverts for tenders seem to have been a mistake.  The feasibility and plans that we have seen are simply an illusion, and if the Minister gave wrong answers to questions that was inadvertent and a mistake.

But yesterday the DP efforts, to get unanimous agreement to a motion where this Parliament will share facilities both in Pietermaritzburg and ~Ulundi~ with the House of Traditional Leaders was rejected.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR W U NEL:  Now the mind boggles.  We cannot interpret these conflicting decisions and we would appeal for some consistency, and we would oppose certainly this vote and would propose that it be reduced by R158,8 million, sir.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Next on the list I will now call upon the hon member Mr Motala.  You have got ten minutes, sir.  Thank you.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, let me also start by supporting those members that have complimented the Premier on the presentation of this particular budget.  I think we have heard this from day one when he first presented the original budget, and today is no exception.

We have been sitting here for some time now.  What have we been hearing from speaker after speaker, every Minister that has presented his budget.  The only thing that we have heard is we are short of funds, there is corruption, there is fraud and complaints and grievances in the various departments.  I believe that that is the cancer that one must now start getting rid of.

What is heartening, is that one must take note of the bold steps the Premier and his Ministers have pledged in this House, and the call that has been made by the hon Mr Meer and various other speakers.  This House should also support that call for the eradication of fraud.  That has to definitely go.

I am sure there are a lot of people that would like to go home early and see that this session finishes.  I am not going to take up the full ten minutes that has been allocated to me.  I will try and keep my talk as short as possible.

What is encouraging is that when we read the local press we read things like, Premier Ngubane releases aid from his Special Fund for agriculture, for the special assistance that he has given to the Minister of Transport's vote where he has allocated funds for the access roads.

I would like to place on the record, as Chairman of the Portfolio Committee, our gratitude to the Premier for the generosity that he has shown to that Department and also say that he is putting the money where his mouth is.  We are making sure that we are delivering to the poorest of the poor.

The other issue that I would like to raise is, before I sit down, is that I also want to compliment the Premier where he has also assisted the hon Mr Jacob Zuma in the Economics Department.  They have provided funds for the KFC, which is very encouraging to see, that there are entrepreneurs that come from the SMMEs are now going to be provided for and there is additional funds that are available.  I want to say a big thank you as well to you, Minister.  It is encouraging to note that investments are now going to start creating jobs in this Province of ours.  When one reads the newspaper you know, one starts getting frightened when you read things like "Lack of job creation is a disappointment".  That comes from COSATU and the Alliance.  We do not know whether it is the Minister of Labour, Tito Mboweni riding on the back of Sam Shilowa or is Same Shilowa riding on the back of Tito Mboweni.  [LAUGHTER]

I just want to quote, because what is important here is what the Minister of Economic Affairs is doing with the help of the Premier's Department, is creating jobs in our Province, but we hear the comments that are being made in the newspapers is like where it says:

	Three years after the African National Congress promised "jobs, jobs, jobs", in its 1994 general election campaign, there was still no real growth in the labour force, Congress of SA Trade Unions secretary-general Sam Shilowa said on Saturday.

Then he went further on to quote to say that:

	The 1997/98 national budget was a "missed opportunity" to act as a government tool to implement policies which would ensure the redistribution of resources.  

	Jobs must be created by building houses, roads, dams and developing infrastructure, particularly in the rural areas, Mr Shilowa's said in a statement.

This is why I say that it is very encouraging that what is going on in our Province, it is now going to be creating those jobs.

Lastly, Mr Chairman, I just want to touch on one aspect which was debated here in my absence, where it was said I was on a collision course and it was an accident, that I had to disappear from sight.  It was hit and run and it was said to me by my colleague Mr Tino Volker, the Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.  I want to say here, I would like to make it abundantly clear to him that I did not disappear from the scene of the accident.  It was unfortunate that my nephew was shot and I had to rush off to hospital to go and see him.  I had reported the issue to the Minister of Roads whose Portfolio I chair and had his permission.  I also advised the leader of the House and the Chief Whip of my party.  So I hope I have cleared the air.

I also want to appeal to him and make it abundantly clear to him, and I want to quote the statement that has been made by the Premier in his speech today, where he goes on to say:

	At this point Mr Chairman, I want to pause and deal with fraud.  You will notice that almost all Ministers that presented their budgets here have complained about the amount of fraud that obtains in this Province.  I am fully behind the efforts to eradicate fraud.

We heard the hon Mr Meer exactly echo those words and this has been going on in every Committee at every meeting; but what has been happening, what the Chairman of the Public Accounts has been doing, he has been getting to the press and politicking by saying that his Committee is finding the fraud, his Committee is the policemen that is really policing this Province and he is casting an aspersion on the Premier and his Cabinet.  I want to appeal to him to ...

MR V A VOLKER:  You do not know what you are talking about.  You still do not know what you are talking about.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  I will deal with that as well of what I am talking about.  I also want to say that I have known the hon Mr Volker, he is getting me annoyed, but this is what I want to say, for the last 20 odd years.  In those 20 years he is the leopard that does not change his spots.  Totally.  I knew him as the MEC in charge of Local Government, when we in this Province asked him to change the rules.  He never did that.  When he was the MEC of Roads, we asked him for roads in the rural areas in the poorest of poor areas.  He never did that.  What was he doing?  Feathering his nest in his community.  This is when he says, he gets up here and makes those public statements casting aspersions on the Premier and his Cabinet, to say they are incompetent, by saying that his Committee has found the fraud that is being discovered.  His Committee, him as Chairman of the Committee is the one that is exposing the fraud.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

MR M S C M MOTALA:  I would like him to know that, that he is one of the most racist MECs that I have come across in my days.  I have known him for 20 years in Local Government.  I was a student of the LAC.  I served my apprenticeship there and ever since then I have known him.  So he must not come here to this Legislature and profess that he is here to do the cause for this region.

Lastly, I want to say by concluding, as far as I am concerned he and his NATS are dead.  They have no political future in this Province.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Order! Order! Order!  Next on the list is hon Mr Rajbansi.  You have got four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  The importance and the significance of this Legislative sitting is the fact that the truth is revealed and the truth is that every Minister ...

MR W U NEL:  Point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order! Order!  Yes.

MR W U NEL:  I believe it is against parliamentary practice for members of this House to flash around newspapers even if the headlines tickle their fancy.

MR A RAJBANSI:  In any case, that stand which the hon member has taken is too fanciful and remote and any court rejects it.  [LAUGHTER]

AN HON MEMBER:  You should know.

MR A RAJBANSI:  But the important factor is that every Minister of this Legislature has taken action against fraud.  Every department has taken action against fraud and wrongdoing.  Nobody has the sole right or the monopoly to go to the press and say, "I or my committee is doing this".  Let this message go out very clearly to the printed and the electronic media.

The hon Mr Motala, and others have spoken about job creation.  We must not engage in any exercise where there is job destruction.  I am glad that the hon Premier, has gazetted the draft macro plan for site and route operators.  I want to make a plea that in consultation with the two Portfolio Committees, Economic Affairs and the Premier's Portfolio Committee, we now determine our plan for the five casinos licences that have been allocated to this Province.

Before I deal with certain policy issues relating to the gambling legislation, I want to make an appeal to the hon Premier.  Engaging of consultants in this country has become a racket.  Qualified people are not applying for jobs, they know they are going to get 10/20 times more doing the same job as consultants.  Consultants are necessary.  They are required to undertake specialised jobs on an ad hoc basis, but you cannot defend the employment of a consultant for ongoing administration.  Especially when you have people in like situations in the various arms of our Government who are doing excellent work at 30% of the salary which is paid to a consultant.

I want to make a plea to the hon Premier and to the hon members of this House, we are living in Africa.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Where there was group areas, where there was ~apartheid~ and we will deal with that when we are dealing with the macro plan for site and route operators.  This Gambling Act says that the main purpose of this Act on the gambling industry is to promote tourism, development etcetera, but nowhere in this Act does it say, that you must promote tourism and development and social upliftment by favouring the giants and trampling on the small site and route operators.

Section 6, section 7, section 53 of this legislation gives policy making powers to the Board, where you saw good governance in this world, where the executive responsibility was given to a structure of nine or ten people.  We must put this right.  All the powers are given to the Board in these sections and in section 87(1) the Minister has power to make regulations on the same issues.  

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member's time is over.

MR A RAJBANSI:  What happens if the Board sets a set of rules in terms of section 7, and the Premier sets a set of rules in terms of section 87(1), whose rules is the Board going to obey?  We need at least two females to be appointed to the Board and if it means necessarily that we must overhaul this Act, this Act was written hurriedly, it is a bad piece of legislation, it needs to be cleansed up.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member's time is over.

MR A RAJBANSI:  30 seconds, Mr Chairman.  Remember we have put 30 000 workers onto the streets.  We have to bring back the food in the mouths of 240 000 people in our Province.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Raj, you sounded like a shark.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Next on the list. [The next speaker on the list is the hon member Mr Ngidi].

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, I bring to your attention that I heard Dr Mike Sutcliffe saying that I am a shark and that is unparliamentary.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  No, no, I said he was sounding like a shark.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Oh I see.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON: [The next one on the list of speakers is the hon member Mr Ngidi, who has 12 minutes].

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  The best approach to the budget process is an apolitical one.  It is the only way in which we can deal with allocating monies in a rational manner.  It is the only way in which we can ensure that taxpayer's monies are not used to promote party political plans but are used for the betterment of the people of KwaZulu-Natal as a whole.  Budget time is not campaign time.  We have 1999 for that.  The fundamental question that each department has to answer is whether they are meeting the needs of the people of KwaZulu-Natal as a whole.  When the people go to the polls in 1999, they will judge us not on how we were able to defend and promote party political positions, but on how we were able to address their needs.

It is important to approach the budget as a negotiating forum.  We must expect that we are not going to get everything that we look for.  We will have to compromise in some respects for the good of the Province.  Threats should not be part of a budget debate.  To be told, as we were during the current debate, that unless we agree to something that the majority party wants there will be no peace in this Province, is just not on.  Let us not be held to ransom.

This in fact runs contrary to the spirit of the Constitution.  We just have to look at the guidelines set by the Constitution in section 215(1) which reads thus:

	National, provincial and municipal budgets and budgetary processes must promote transparency, accountability and the effective financial management of the economy, debt and the public sector.

Threats mean that we hide things and not talk about them for fear to tread on other people's toes.

This Government, in setting the tone for delivery, has embarked on a campaign of good governance.  We have in various ways committed ourselves to clean Government.  We have in the same vein committed ourselves to be a transparent and accountable Government.  We have committed ourselves in fighting corruption wherever it rears its ugly head.  Indeed we have heard encouraging accounts from some members of the Executive Council how they are combating corruption in their departments.  However, that is not enough.

Good planning is an essential part of good governance.  Each department must be able to develop programmes that are part of the Provincial macro strategy.

It must be clear that every plan, for each department forms part of a coherent Provincial plan.  One must be able to feel that the Executive Council has thought out a plan to take this Province forward and it is not a case where each Minister simply does as he pleases.  In this case we need to see the leadership taken by the Department of the Premier.  From time to time this House takes resolutions.  These resolutions are not just a mere formality but are serious decisions that need to be adhered to by all arms of the Government.  One is concerned by the comment of the Financial Portfolio Committee in its report that, and I quote:

	For the second year in a row departments have failed to carry out budget-related resolutions taken by this House.

I would like to call on the Finance Portfolio Committee to expose those departments concerned, and the relevant MECs must account.  In this regard I would urge the MEC for Finance to give serious consideration to the recommendations of the Portfolio Committee, especially because these are not just recommendations of one political party, but those of a multi-party organ of this Legislature.

One major task of this Government is transformation.  This, at the governmental level, has to take place taking into account the three traditions of this Province.  We must see in all departments, particularly at the level of personnel, that those from the old NPA as well as KwaZulu Government and the Liberation Movement are being accommodated.  I am not sure whether the third element in this regard has been adequately accommodated.  Not only must transformation take place within Government structures, but we need to see the playing fields on the socio-economic front being levelled.  Parity and equality between those who benefitted from the past regime and those who were excluded must be brought about.  It can never be business as usual.  Those disparities created by the ~apartheid~ regime must be addressed.

We need to see this Government seriously addressing the gender issue.  It is worrying that a number of departments still reported in this debate that they did not have women in top managerial positions.  What must be clear is that we are not doing our women a favour.  They are not poor, helpless little creatures who need our pity through hand-outs and perquisites.  When we promote our women we are beginning to address an historical injustice that has been in existence from time immemorial.  We are beginning to take a stand that this Government is going to make a clean break with the past and do what is right and just.

Whilst a number of departments have advanced quite a lot in restructuring, this process is far from being complete.  There are situations where posts need to be filled to be able to perform certain duties.  Because of unfilled posts, departments have had to put a brake on some projects thus resulting in unwanted roll-overs.  There is also an untenable situation where some officials have been on a temporal basis for almost three years now.  We simply cannot have this.  It is unjust.  There are some departments who have not completed their staff rationalisation planning.  These should be urged to get on with the job.  Another issue is the restructuring of parastatals like the KFC.

Mr Chairperson, I listened with encouragement to the suggestion by the Premier of a Budget Indaba.  I would like to sound support for this initiative, because it is a forum out of which we hope that we will get clear plans on how we are going to take this Province forward.  Guidelines in tandem with the spirit of the Constitution will have to be worked out in that forum.  Decisions thereof, I would suggest, will have to be brought to the Legislature for endorsement.

Let me encourage again the Premier in his efforts to enhance communication within the Executive Council through introducing advanced technological means of communication.  This will auger well for good governance and will enhance the efficiency and effectiveness of our Government.

The hon Mr Konigkramer talked about the youth avalanche in this Province.  To me this demands urgent action from us.  The majority of the unemployed are youth.  Furthermore, the youth are afflicted with a number of social problems including drugs, teenage pregnancy, AIDS, crime and violence to count but a few.

This therefore calls for this Government to develop a comprehensive programme for youth development.  In this regard a youth commission is more than an urgent necessity, it is a fundamental essential.

I agree with the hon member Mr Nel that consistency from political parties to be able to address successfully the issue of peace is essential.  However, the DP itself must take lessons of consistency to heart.  They have not been a shining example in this regard.  Furthermore, it is the highest incident of irresponsibility to raise issues only for the reasons of political shine.

In conclusion, Mr Chairperson, let me say that on the whole we can take pride in the fact that we are moving forward.  A lot of improvements will have to be made.  A lot of obstacles will have to be removed and there is a lot that we have to learn, but undoubtedly we are not at the same point that we were when we started.  There is hope for KwaZulu-Natal and with these words I support your budget.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr A J Hamilton for ten minutes.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Chairman, it gives me great pleasure to compliment the Minister/Premier on a well structured and balanced budget, especially given the lack of funding from the National fiscus.

The dynamics of Provincial Government has changed forever in South Africa.  Complacency of the old days where there were only four competing provinces for funds, and resources and development opportunities are gone forever.  

Today, as we know, there are nine competing provinces, and make no mistake, it is a competition which is healthy.  But what this means is each province must identify its competitive and comparative advantages, and get out into the world and market its attractions aggressively, for it is a competitive world out there with many countries competing for investment.  This whole dynamic is very healthy and will result in those provinces which get going becoming strong with vibrant and growing economies each contributing towards a strong and vibrant National economy.

This competition for development will increase with the irresistible world trend of globalisation of regional economies, make no mistake about it.  It is never going to revert back to the old idea of country trade, it is now globalisation of regional economies.  Those provinces that are going to be successful are those whose Governments recognise this new dynamic and use it to their advantage.

Without doubt, Mr Chairman, two of KwaZulu-Natal's comparative and competitive advantages are tourism and our ports.  It is not my purpose to expound further on the reasons for relocating Durban International Airport to La Mercy, they are already well-known and researched, suffice it to say that the freeing up of the old Durban International Airport site is perhaps the best reason for relocating to King Shaka.  It presents the Province, the Metropole and the nation with a unique and once-off opportunity, to construct a deep water international dedicated super container and bulk liquids hub port, with the transhipment facilities so necessary to attain international hub port status, providing an additional four million containers a year and a 40 year outlook for our port.

This Province and the jewel in our golden crown, Durban, have been identified as South Africa's global competitor.  In other words, the region with the best potential for development.  There are a number of reasons for our selection as South Africa's first choice as a global competitor.  I am only going to touch on one.

The new port opportunity in the words of the Centre for Development Enterprise, and I quote:

	If the objective is to turn Durban into a world-class "hub port", against competition from other Indian Ocean ports, it will be necessary to sacrifice some environmental and recreational features that currently limit options for expanding the container handling facilities.  Moreover, if the authorities avoid making a decision on the role of the bay in Durban's in economy over the next few years, this could be seen as irresponsible.  Such a choice will not be easy, but if it is to be avoided, the bay will probably become neither a significant tourism asset nor an international competitive hub port.

	Rather, what will emerge is a sub-optimal mix determined by short term responses to pressure.  If a mediocre compromise is to be avoided, a bold and creative vision of what local leaders expect the city to become will have to be linked to the vision of the port and Province's future.

This Government cannot let this opportunity slip by us for we will not have another chance.  We in this hon House and the Metropole must join forces with the port authorities, and undertake a preliminary feasibility and financial package to establish once and for all that a new second port of Durban is very viable and, Mr Chairman, it is, but we must prove it.

This study can be undertaken very cheaply and quickly, well within three months.  The information to undertake this study is available now.  We must pursue the objective with utter determination and commitment.  It is one of the quantum leaps along with the airport, that we must make to secure the future of our Province.

Another quantum leap we have to take in the Province is that of becoming an investor friendly region.  The investor friendly region.  Perhaps unfairly, although I am not always sure about that, we enjoy a reputation of being one of the difficult areas for investors to develop.  So let us perhaps call together all the municipalities, sit down together with them and find out ways and means of streamlining our investor services.  One way I can think of would be the establishment of ombudsmen, ombudsmen with real teeth.  Teeth to strike down stupid legislation, stupid by-laws, stupid regulations, some of which date back to the last century.  We have got to become investor friendly and that is perhaps one way to look at it.

Also the introduction of rates holidays to certain chosen industries.  Focus on the industries we want to attract here, offer them rates holidays, peppercorn land rentals where you give a company that you want to attract, because of its job creation opportunities, an incentive it cannot say no to.  25 years at a peppercorn lease.  Reduction in service tariffs such as water and electricity.  This is a water rich Province.  We must be able to come to some agreement with the service providers in making these attractive.

Another interesting thing for us that is coming forward is the Provincial Borrowings Act, which will come into effect next year in April.  This Act, I submit to the hon House, has lots of opportunities to assist the provinces in undertaking major capital and infrastructural developments.  We have to be and learn to be innovative in our way of financing capital projects such as a build, operate and transfer.  There are many other options.  There are many very competitive interest rates available, not only throughout the world but right here in South Africa.  We must be bold and we must step out into the future to use these new methods, to fund vital infrastructure, that we need in this Province, because at the end of the day our ability to create infrastructure will determine our future.

I believe something that we could well do, is for this Government to actually make out the case for the National Government, for extending export incentives to the tourism industry.  If ever there is an industry that qualifies as a classic example of an export industry, it is tourism.  Every penny that comes in is foreign exchange, and yet it is always treated as a Cinderella industry.  I will never understand why.

Not only is it a classic export industry, it is the largest and fastest growing industry in the world.  We must back the growth of this industry with every penny we can afford and lots that we cannot afford.  Short term, it is our quickest way to prosperity and massive job creation.

Mr Chairman, finally, I believe that in terms of the new world economic order, and that is the globalisation of region economies, we have got to undertake a raising of the profile of our Province.  We have got to be seen nationally, we have got to be seen internationally, through a means of trade missions, diplomatic missions, to get ourselves known to foreign Governments, to explore possibilities with foreign Governments, with foreign banks, to encourage foreign investment, organise tours back here, identify groups of industries that we would like to attract here, invite them.  If necessary, pay for their visit to this Province and raise our profile internationally and nationally.

With that, Mr Chairman, I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I therefore call upon the hon member Mrs J M Downs.  You have got four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Unfortunately, through you, Mr Chairman, to the MEC for Finance, if we had more time we could focus on some of the areas which we agree with, but unfortunately there is not enough time, so I am going to have to focus only on areas of disagreement.

The first issue that I would like to speak about, and seeing that it has been brought up by a previous member in this House, I feel that I cannot leave it alone, is the matter of the buildings.  As you yourself said this morning, Mr Premier, that we have now a ghost building in ~Ulundi~.  It is a very strange ghost building because there is actually an advert out, which I have a copy of, asking for pre-tender qualification on it.  I would like to know who put that out and who authorised it, and why did they put it out?

The second problem that I have got, is that your own leader of the House, actually stood and defended the issue of having this debating chamber in ~Ulundi~.  He actually made, as one of the previous speakers, the hon Mr Ngidi referred to, made some quite inflammatory statements, saying that there would be war or problems if this building was not built.  It is still in the Department of Works' report as a part of a continuation budget, ending up in R226 million.  Now who authorised that?  Who put it into the Department of Works' report?  These are questions that I would like to know.  If it was not authorised, why did they do it and put it in as an unauthorised item?  These are questions that we should really be asking.

The second issue that I have got a problem with is your R158 million.  In the debate on the Premier's vote, I actually asked for your assurance that this R158 million would be spent before the end of the year.  I have great sympathy for you wanting to actually shortcut some of the other departments, because I know that for example in the Department of Agriculture, there was supposed to be an allocation for drought relief, which was three years ago, which still has not been allocated.  I understand that you want to fast track some special projects and put them where they are most needed, but I am really concerned because it is actually going back to the very line departments where the problems of delivery are in the first place.

So in order for me to support this budget, which I cannot at the moment, I really need your assurance that the projects are in hand, that they are identified, that you know what they are, that you know where they are going to go and the money is going to be spent before the end of the year.

The third issue that I want to raise is gambling.  I do not think you are going to like me very much for this, because this seems to sort of tarnish your image a little bit with a bit of a nasty brush, I am afraid.

Just as your predecessor was leaving and you were coming in as Premier of the Province, he took a very hard line on this gambling issue.  He actually said that the illegal operators would be shot down and that was that.  That seemed to be your party's stand on the issue.  We then heard via the newspapers and media, which you yourselves have accused of subverting what actually happened, saying that the reason that Dr Mdlalose had to leave, was because of interference from your National President and that there were considerations of you having received funds ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MRS J M DOWNS:  Can I ask for your protection please?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order! Order!

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS J M DOWNS:  Can I ask your protection please?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please!  Order! Order!  Order, hon members.  Order.  Let us give her a hearing.  Thank you.  Continue.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I hope I am going to get my time back.

DR L J T MTALANE:  Mr Chairman, point of order please.  This person belongs to a Christian Democratic Party and she must not tell lies here, that there was interference with Dr Mdlalose from our President.  She is in the Christian Democratic Party, a Christian.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Continue.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I hope I am going to get my time back, Mr Chairman.  This was a matter of public record, it was in the newspapers.  I am quoting what I saw in the newspapers and I said so.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MRS J M DOWNS:  Can I have your protection please, Mr Chairman?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!  Order please!

MRS J M DOWNS:  I cannot continue with my speech while there is such a lot of noise.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!

MR M F REHMAN:  Point of order, Mr Chairman.  Will the hon speaker take a question?

MRS J M DOWNS:  I will take a question at the end if I have time and that is not a point of order.

AN HON MEMBER:  You will not forget to take the question at the end of your speech? 

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Chairman, can I have your protection please.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!  You may continue.

MRS J M DOWNS:  May I have my time back?  If I can be allowed to finish what I was saying.  I am duty bound by the very precepts of my party that have elected me into this position, to talk about this gambling issue because it is controversial.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MRS J M DOWNS:  The problem is ...  Can I have protection please.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Chairman, can I have your protection please.  I cannot go on, it is just too much.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order! Order! Order! [I am asking the members to listen to her and let us hear what she has to say.  Thank you].

MRS J M DOWNS:  I am prepared to speak through a minimal amount of interference, Mr Chairman, but this is really too much.  If I may go on.  As I was saying, sir, there were allegations in the newspaper ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MRS J M DOWNS:  ... that the Gambling Association of South Africa had given funds to the IFP and it was because of these considerations that there was a proposed change in the gambling legislation.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Chairman, do I have to keep asking for your protection like this all the time?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order! Order!

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Chairman, I believe that this just serves to illustrate the controversy surrounding the gambling issue.  This is something which my party is well-known to be in opposition to and I really rest my case.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Okay  [The next person on the list of speakers, I am going to ask Advocate I M Bawa who has 13 minutes].

ADV I M BAWA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I would like to begin by agreeing with our Finance Portfolio Committee Chairman, Mr Makhaye, that there was close co-operation and assistance between the Finance Committee and the Department of the Premier and the Premier's other departments as well.

As a member of the Finance Committee, I bear testimony to that fact, that that was a very desirable and a worthwhile co-operation, which was highly appreciated by the Finance Committee.

I would like to make observations on a few items before I say something on our judicial system.  I entirely agree with Mr Konigkramer's concern that there are many issues concerning youth which are of an explosive nature, and could lead to tremendous civil disturbances.

I am amazed to see that the older generation and the middle age group, have so much patience with all the problems that are in this Province.  They bear all the disadvantages into which they were involved or situated with such great patience that one is amazed at how are they able to bear that.

The youth of the country are not going to share that kind of patience any longer.  We have been told that the majority of our Province's population is in the youth category, they are going to be an extremely dissatisfied group.  As such, unless steps are taken to try and remedy the problems that are involved in this situation, there is going to be serious concern, and serious disturbances that will take place.  It is a time bomb that can explode unless remedial actions are taken.  This must be taken very seriously because I think we tend to ignore the problems that are connected with the youth situation in this country.

I was a bit heartened to hear of the steps that our Premier and the other Ministers are taking in regard to the controlling, I use the word "controlling" advisedly, of fraud and mismanagement of funds.  It is virtually impossible from the human point of view, to be able to eradicate completely this particular cancer in our society.  Where it is possible to introduce a mechanical system of controlling it, that would be possible to a large extent.

There are areas where human beings are in control and are expected to manage this particular area of concern.  You then have one human being to look after or take care of and to find out what the other human beings are doing in their particular departments.  That reminds me of a saying that you need a thief to catch a thief!  So, eventually we are more or less in the same situation that we find ourselves in at the moment.

It is a human problem and something that is really, basically, at the root of it, is that it eventually resolves itself under the question of moral systems and moral values.  If you believe that it is wrong to commit theft, if you believe that it is absolutely wrong to do anything that is irregular in that way, then of course you have same hope of being able to eradicate this more or less completely, but until that value system is there we will not be able to eradicate it completely.

The hon member Mr Meer mentioned about writing off the interest from our National account.  One remembers that all the countries that advanced money to the African States, ostensibly for the purpose of development, and yet no development took place in those countries.  Despite that, the aid continued to be given, and no steps were taken to see that they were really used for the purpose for which they were ostensibly meant for.

One feels uncomfortable about our debts, by realising that what really was the motive behind this, was to support the autocratic regimes who were favourable or favourably disposed to those powers that were giving out the loans.  The result was that huge interest debts accumulated, leave alone the capital.  The capital could never be repaid.  The interest too could not be repaid and the only moral solution, real economic solution will be to write off all this interest that has been accumulated by those countries.

If the donor countries are not prepared to write off the debt, the countries concerned should fairly repudiate all those claims completely.  I think that would be perfectly justified in the light of what the motive behind it was and it has destroyed the continent.  You just cannot imagine how intolerable that burden is.  I remember that under President Nyere, I think it was Tanzania which refused to take that kind of aid from foreign countries.  He said, "I would rather be an agricultural country, develop my country within the resources of my own country and not be dependent on foreign powers".

It reminds me also of the country of Iran.  They never took any loan from any country of the world.  They redeveloped their own resources.  Today its one of the most powerful countries in the Middle East area and perhaps in the world.  All within the strength of their own resources.

I am a bit concerned about the statement that was made that women are not being taken care of in the appointments.  Now one remembers that when God created Adam, and placed him in the best of paradise, he was very lonely and found himself to be very unhappy.  So God had to create a woman to enable them to live together in harmony and peace and comfort and happiness!

There are two parts to this human entity.  I do not see why one should look upon this as a favour to women or that we have to justify the promotion of women in this situation.  I do agree that they must be given all the possible help that can be given to be in those positions where they should be, and are entitled to be.

I would like to make a brief reference to the criminal system.  We have had a lot of complaints about how prisoners are being treated by the courts of law.  If one looks at the Criminal Procedure Act, one looks at the criminal Act at the definitions of crimes, one looks at the law of evidence, this is a veritable paradise for the criminals, and for the lawyers who practise in the criminal courts.

One is told that it is better to let off ten guilty persons than to let one innocent person be convicted.  My own experience is this, that out of 100 serious crimes committed, criminals of the serious category, 90 or 95 get out of there, escape the convictions, simply because of the failure on the part of the State, to prepare properly and the lack of evidence enables competent lawyers to take advantage of the weaknesses and so all the criminals are left free.

There is a need to tighten up the whole system of criminal jurisdiction.  I know that efforts are being made in this connection, but I think one gets the impression that the efforts that are promoted, are being spoken about, will not be  sufficient to tighten up this whole system where justice will be done to those who deserve justice.

In line with everybody else who have cut down on their own time, I also wish to conclude by complimenting the Premier on the presentation of his budget speech here and support the budget as the others have done.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Dr M O Sutcliffe.  You have got 12 minutes.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, Mr Chair.  I will be quite brief in my comments today.  If I could first indicate our appreciation to both the Chair of the Finance Committee but certainly to all members of that Committee.  We do have an environment in which we can pursue all departments and try and ensure that we are maintaining the kind of watchdog role, that this Portfolio Committee should have.  Certainly one should thank also the Department and certainly the MEC for the very good relationship we have had over the past six months, but certainly over the past few years.  We have never failed to get information.  There is a degree of transparency that you do not find in other departments, and then there is an attempt to engage with us over issues.

This afternoon I want to touch on a few quick issues because we are running quite late.  The first is really to indicate that at times we are treating this period of transition something like running a 100 metre sprint, and not realising that in fact it is something of a marathon.  We often have initiatives that we want to put on the table, we put them on the table and before we realise it, we are swept away with a tide of other issues that come on the table.  What we have to do is try and ensure that we are building capacity to take forward those initiatives.

Certainly the Premier, in coming in as the MEC of Finance, one of those initiatives which was certainly applauded by this House, was the issue of the tender legislation.  It is among the best in the provinces, it probably is the best legislation we have in the provinces, but what we now need to do is to ensure that certainly at senior management level, there is an understanding of what that Tender Act means.

We have got to ensure that those regulations are regulations that really begin to assist us in ensuring that Government funds can be used as something of a muscle to restructure the way the private sector, non-governmental organisations, CBOs etcetera engage in this Province, because certainly what we do not want is, as we have seen in other legislation, that the legislation comes on the table and all we have is the private sector now starts using new terms like RDP and accountability and transparency.  It is the same old private sector getting the same old contracts.  Sometimes they have one or two new faces on their board, but it is the same old problem.

I would really urge that the Premier and MEC of Finance here, encourages that we actually ensure that we are emphasising that we are running this marathon and not just that sprint.

The second issue is, and this really is the second plea to the Premier here, is to say that he should officially appoint all the MECs as really deputy MECs of Finance, because it is a job that requires every MEC to begin to be involved in.  Our biggest problem that we are faced with at the moment is really encouraging senior managers, executive managers in this Province, to really realise that we are in a new ball park, a new era now.  The issue of accountability, of transparency means that when you come to Portfolio Committees you are either prepared or you are able to say I am not prepared but I will be on this particular day.

Too often we have management coming to meetings, making comments that in fact the MECs do not even know they have made until they see it in the press the next day.  We really must encourage that we are building amongst senior management, a recognition that it is a right and a responsibility having committees, in the transparent way that we do.  We cannot blame the press.  We cannot blame even individual members of this House of saying whatever they like.  What we have to do is to ensure that Government begins to be much more prepared, much more professional in its approach to these tasks.

The third issue that I want to touch on briefly, is this issue of the new ways in which we govern.  Throughout the world you find, as we have moved through a period of structural adjustment, that new ways of dealing with partnerships emerge.  The hon Minister Kadar Asmal in Parliament yesterday was commenting on BOTT, the Build, Operate, Train and Transfer, which the hon MEC of Finance had mentioned a month or two ago.

We must not simply say, because these are initiatives that were brought and put on the table, that they are automatically good, that they have to be good.  There is a very interesting article which I will be giving to the Secretary of the Treasury from Urban Studies, which is an academic journal which has reviewed these public/private relationships in most developing countries of the world.  They indicate that you have got to be very careful about these initiatives of whether it is straight privatisation or these Build, Operate, Transfer and Train mechanisms and the like.  The idea of simply saying that the private sector can do things better, often means it is more costly, it is more inefficient and there is absolutely no control over it.

We have to start taking these things seriously, and not simply accepting that those new partnerships are automatically good.  We have got to build them in such a way that in fact they are part of the overall mission of the Province.

That is where the Indaba comes in, because really that Indaba should ensure that we are all in agreement with what the framework is, within which we are doing things, and delivering on a different basis.  We certainly would need to commend the MEC here and the Premier, for agreeing to the holding of that, or in fact for initiating the idea of an Indaba on the budget, where one begins to say, what is the framework within which we are doing things, so that then those political arguments we have are political arguments we can have fairly and squarely.  They do not become confused political arguments, where there is a defence of some bureaucrats who are saying we must build this or we must not build that, and that then begins to be a half political half bureaucratic half whatever argument.  Let us rather get an agreement on what our goals are and then we fight our politics within those particular goals.  So certainly we need to commend the MEC for that.

The last point is that we really need to find ways in which we can improve communication within both Government and the Legislature.  It is not adequate that we have a fairly confused system of communication that operates here.  We should not have a situation where you are finding that some members of committees, or some members of the bureaucracy, come to committee meetings with some information which MECs might not know about, which others might not know about.  So I would really urge that this Department ensures that we jack up the communication side of Finance because ultimately that is one of the key aspects.

With those few words, Chair, I would like to suggest that we support this Finance budget, and certainly apologise to our hon Faith Gasa that she was dragged out to come here.  She should not be with us today.  So I must take some personal responsibility for that and apologise there.  Thank you, Chair.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you. [We thank you very much.  The Whips have agreed that I should give Mrs Mkhize the right to speak, because she was not here.  She will speak for 10 minutes].

MRS N C MKHIZE: (Whip):  Mr Chairman, hon members.  The most serious indictment against this Province is the lack of visible delivery in the rural areas.  By this I am not talking about peri-urban land which is about 8 kilometres outside Ladysmith or Port Shepstone.  I am talking of our communal land where more than half of KwaZulu-Natal's population reside, and which constitutes about 40% of this Province's land mass.

The allocation of R158 million to the Finance vote in this financial year's budget is the first concerted attempt by this Parliament to address this anomaly effectively.  Substantial projects dealing with the infrastructural deficiencies in rural areas can now be embarked upon.

In my opinion, this allocation should be viewed as a modest beginning to a planned programme in this Province to address the needs of the poorest of the poor.  The R158 million of a R16 billion budget is grossly disproportionate in terms of the enormity of the problem we are addressing.  I hope I can stand here next year to vote an allocation of maybe two or three times this amount.

My short involvement on the Provincial Housing Board, has indicated to me that actual expenditure is quite difficult to achieve.  This Government needs to prepare itself for delivery at grass-root level.  In brief, this should at least require the following:

1.	The establishment of a focused development team, needed to drive the process from inception to delivery on the ground.
2.	A needs analysis must be done, prioritising the areas of need.  In this respect much has been done in each line department, and may require a simple collation of current data.
3.	A development programme must be planned, realistically targeted by taking into account the capacity of Government and the private sector to deliver.
4.	Simultaneously, an effective monitoring process must be established to ensure that funds are spent in the most cost efficient manner.  The success of this monitoring system will be judged by its ability to unblock blockages as they occur.

I have gone into this detail during this financial debate, because I believe these are the sort of procedures that should be embarked upon by all service delivery departments, engaged in community based programmes.

This will provide a guarantee against the situation arising and has arisen in many departments to date, where halfway through a financial year, very little expenditure has occurred and there is a desperate last minute rush to spend the budget.  A situation conducive to mismanagement and bad management and the concern of the Finance Department.

I would like to conclude by stating that Government and its bureaucracy is not necessarily the best delivery tool, and that we may need to look beyond Government structures to the private sector to provide us with the expertise we need in the areas of financial management, development, planning and project management.  The employment of consultants must, however, be done in a transparent fashion and as far as possible, there should be a transfer of skills to the public sector.

Mr Chairman sir,.  Thank you.

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, the Minister of Finance who is the Premier of this Province of ours, of KwaZulu.  He said something very important, because he was talking about money.  Money is the backbone of our lives, and our children's lives, and the whole nation.

A nation which does not have money and does not have ways of making money is looked down upon.  Communities which do not have money and are unemployed become the nest of those horrible things such as violence, wars, acts of filth, hatred, killing, and distress.  It is this Government that is called upon to destroy this nest.  Where we have people who are skilled, we must ensure at all costs that those skills of theirs are used for building up the strength of our currency and developing the people so that they are able to build factories.

We, as the women, are involved in working with the people who are putting in fruitless efforts.  It is important that these efforts of theirs be co-ordinated.  Those that are attempting to do the intricate work with their hands should be developed for greater things.

It is sad to find, however, that as the Government of this Province is directly faced with the challenge of creating work for people, there are other things that are going on which we do not have the power to rectify.  Like this issue that comes from above regarding casinos, which the Government is powerless to do anything about.

It is the same with the issue that we spoke about here yesterday, that medicines would be obtained from countries overseas, and then you find that those people who manufacture medicines in this country, will not have a market to sell their medicines.

I am asking my brothers of COSATU, who are across on the other side there, to really take this matter to heart and to make as much noise as they can about it, because their people will lose their jobs.  With those words, I thank you very much.  I support the budget speech by the hon Premier.  Thank you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you very much to the hon member.  At this juncture I am going to ask the hon Premier, Dr Ngubane].

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I would like to thank my colleagues for the encouragement they have given myself and the Department of Finance, in the work that we have to accomplish for this Province.  We are looking at new ways of delivering Government services to people, of providing revenues that are collected, to be applied in the service of the people of this Province.  We are working closely in this matter with the Department of State Expenditure and the National Minister of Finance, together also with our colleagues from other provinces, because essentially we face the same budget constraints, and we face the same steep social problems and the demands that accompany those problems.

I have taken to heart what Mr I C Meer has said, wise, encouraging always, and truly compassionate and charitable.  I am really disappointed with my fellow Christian Mrs Downs.  I know Christians as charitable people, but what she has done today is to read into Hansard something that is absolutely false.  I have never at any stage sought to open the illegal casinos.  What I did was to respond to the petitions by mothers, by young people, by husbands who said, "When your Government closed these casinos, when we did not really expect it, when we were not prepared for other jobs, where we have got serious overheads, where our houses are being repossessed".  I am a Christian you know.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Chairman, may I ask the hon Premier a question?

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Yes please.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Premier, through you, Mr Chairman, I hear what the hon Premier is saying, but the question is this.  Those casinos were illegal in the first place.  Now if they were illegal how can we then say because people are now going to be thrown out of work we must allow them to continue?  I put the question to the Premier, if this is applied to casinos what about all the other illegal happenings that are going on in this country which are so-called employing people?  Must we then say these things must continue because they are providing sustenance to people?

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  It is the National Party that must be shameful, that allowed illegal shebeens to continue, when they said we will begin to licence them.  The National Party must be ashamed of what Chris Fismer has done to this country.

MR G S BARTLETT:  We are not talking about shebeens we are talking about casinos.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order!

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Mr Chairman, if only the hon Bartlett had given me time I would have told him that I promised to investigate legal ways of establishing casinos, fast track the granting of licences, in some cases even temporary ones.  That is what I was aiming at.  To create a legal vehicle for these people to continue to be employed in the trade that they had expertise in.

This is what we have done now.  The Board, at last, has agreed to fast track the five big licences, has agreed to fast track the granting of the site and route licences because we want to lessen the number of people who are unemployed.

Some of us you know have grown up with suffering.  We know what suffering is.  George Bartlett was a member of a discredited Government in this country, a Minister in that Government.  He has no idea how blacks suffer in this country.

MR G S BARTLETT:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  That is the trouble.

MR G S BARTLETT:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!

MR G S BARTLETT:  That hon member knows nothing about my background.  Mr Chairman, I ask that hon member to withdraw what he has said.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order! Order!

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Chairman, I want that hon Premier to withdraw what he has said because he knows nothing about my background.  I want to tell the hon Premier that my mother worked night and day to assist my father to educate us and we grew up during the great depression.  So we know what the struggle is all about.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND EXTENSIVE CROSSTALK.  COHERENT TRANSCRIPTION NOT POSSIBLE.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order! Order!

MR G S BARTLETT:  I want to tell the hon Premier, Mr Chairman ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.  Order! Order! Order!  Order, hon member Mr Bartlett.

MR G S BARTLETT:  This is a racist comment the Premier has made.  It is typical of the Premier...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND EXTENSIVE CROSSTALK.  COHERENT TRANSCRIPTION NOT POSSIBLE.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order! Order!  Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Chairman, I would request that you urgently at the conclusion of this sitting convene a meeting of the disciplinary committee to look into the behaviour of that member.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Agreed.  You may continue.  Order.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I am sorry, Mr Chairman, I apologise for yet again interrupting the hon Premier, but from the ANC's side we will fully support that.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, on a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I must record that we also support the Chief Whip.  This behaviour of this National Party member is despicable.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Mr Chairman, you know probably the hon member suffers from amnesia.  [LAUGHTER]  He seemingly has forgotten that he was a Minister of State in the National Party Government.  That is all I reminded him of and it has unleashed virulence and vitriol.  Incredible, the guilty protest loudest.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Mr Chairman, I wanted to set the record straight for Mrs Downs.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Because I do not think it is Christian and charitable for a member of this House to actually speak into history, because when we speak here we are speaking into the record, into the Hansard.  To actually state something that is not true as a fact, that I wanted to re-open illegal casinos, when all I committed myself to was to investigate ways in which we can create legal operations of the casino industry.  I was perfectly correct in doing that.

Of course when I got legal counsel, senior legal counsel to say, "No, no, if you did that it would be in contravention of the National legislation", because a casino licence cannot be temporary, it will be a casino licence.  I announced to the people of this country and KwaZulu-Natal, that we were not proceeding in that direction because it has been clearly shown to us that it was not tenable.  But for the lady to sit here and speak into the Hansard and say the Premier of this Province wanted to do something illegal, I reject it with the contempt it deserves.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Then of course there is a lot of breast beating and sanctimoniousness about the R158 million.  My sister, the hon Constance Mkhize has pointed out, that out of a budget of R16 billion, R158 million is peanuts.  Again I appeal to my colleagues who do not live in the black community, this money is merely just the beginning of attempting to address the backlogs and the issues out there.  It is nothing.  It will not even go a kilometre to address the issues that we face on the ground.  Yet, I get again and again from those people a challenge that one is being irresponsible, one is not following the rules.

I will tell you, Mrs Downs, tomorrow I will be presenting a submission to the Cabinet of this Province and it states, the subject matter:

	Every school in KwaZulu-Natal is to have toilets and water by the end of 1997.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance and Auxiliary Services):  That is the submission I will be presenting tomorrow.  The money to finance that will come out of the R158 million which we can fast track to produce this very result.  So please have faith in us.  Have faith in us, you may think whatever you like, but we are responsible people and we will govern this Province properly.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance and Auxiliary Services):  I am very happy that the idea of an Indaba of our Cabinet is being received so enthusiastically.  I would really encourage not only the Chairpersons of Portfolio Committees, but the entire Portfolio Committee of Finance to attend together with the Heads of Departments.  This Indaba is going to be very crucial for this Province because it is going to turn around the traditional ways of approaching budgeting, and start creating priorities as the yardsticks against which we allocate funding to departments.

It will also complement the legislation that we will be introducing later this year on performance measurement by departments as we will be passing the Performance Measurement Bill.  We are serious about bringing good governance here.  We want to achieve results that do start to bring a change in the lives of so many desperate and suffering people.

With these words I would like to thank the House for supporting the budget.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr Premier.  Order.  Yes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, on a point of personal explanation and I deliberately waited till the end of the debate.  I rise to draw attention to the totally untrue and unwarranted vicious personal attack on me by the hon member Mr Motala.  Whereas he was aware that I was not allocated an opportunity ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order.  Mr Powell.  Point of order, Mr Powell.

MR P POWELL:  Mr Chairman, on outstanding points of order, I would like to ask you for a ruling from the Chair on whether it is parliamentary for an hon member to refer to another hon member as a racist?

MR B H CELE:  Mr Chairman, on a point of order on what he is saying.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!  Yes, Mr Cele.

MR B H CELE:  On what is happening right now.  Are we all going to be allowed, yet we are not on the speakers' list to stand up and respond to what has been said by a members.  Although we are not on the speakers' list?  Is that the new precedent, are all of us are going to have that precedent the next time?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

MR B H CELE:  If not, this member should sit down.  He was not on the speakers' list and he has no right to respond unless all of us are going to get that privilege.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!  Hon Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Chairman, it often happens in this House that things are said between members, especially in the heat of the debate, politics is a tough game to be in.  Sometimes things are said that you do not like.  Quite frankly, I do not see any justification for Mr Volker to stand up on a matter of personal explanation.  If he wishes to do a matter of personal explanation he should apply to you in your office, and you can allow him to rise at the next plenary of this House.  He can then offer a matter of personal explanation.  But on an ad hoc basis during the course of debates, it is just not a parliamentary custom to do that at all.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I would therefore ask the hon member to take his seat.  Thank you.

VOTE 2:  PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We will continue.  We have come to the end of the debate.  The next item on the agenda is item 8.2.  The vote of the Provincial Legislature.  Since there is no speakers' list for this, the debate on this vote is deemed to have been disposed of.  A comprehensive report has been tabled on the activities of the Legislature for the budget year 1996/1997, for the information of the members and the public.

I have been informed that there is agreement amongst all parties to support this vote.  Thank you.

MR V A VOLKER:  It is not for the Chairman to say that, it is for the House to decide that.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I therefore have pleasure, Mr Speaker, to report that the Committee Stage of the budget debate has now been disposed of.  Thank you.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED
	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The House resumes.  We are now going to deal with item 8.4.  I wish to call upon the hon member Mr Makhaye to give us a report.


8.4  DECISION ON FINANCE PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE REPORT.

MR D H MAKHAYE:  Mr Speaker, I request to table amendments to the report of the Finance Portfolio Committee on the budget.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Makhaye.  I would like to know from the political parties in this House as to what their views are on the Finance Committee report.  I will start with the IFP.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I understand that there were amendments.  Did the hon member move them?  I was distracted in another discussion.  We support the report as amended.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  ANC.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  The ANC supports the report as amended.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  National Party.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  The National Party supports the report as amended.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  DP.

MR R M BURROWS:  The Democratic Party will oppose the report.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Minority Front.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The Minority Front supports the report with amendment, which was unanimously accepted in the Finance Portfolio Committee with the DP being present.  [LAUGHTER]

MR R M BURROWS:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Sorry, can we hear the point of order.

MR R M BURROWS:  If the hon member had heard me correctly, I pointed out that the Democratic Party opposed the report in toto.  We are not concerned about his amendments and whether he plays around with them or not.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  That clears the position of the Democratic Party.  Can we hear the ACDP please.

MRS J M DOWNS:  We support the report, before the amendments.  We do not support the amendments.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That brings us to the item 8.5.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

8.5  DECISION ON VOTES 1 - 16

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Order please! Order please!  That brings us to item 8.5.  The way that we are going to do that, we are going to take each vote at a time, and we get the view of all the political parties, so as to allow others who might have some amendments, to raise their amendments.  I will start with vote 1.  I wish to table vote 1 and hear the views of parties on vote 1.  IFP.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I believe the IFP did not hear you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  All right.  Let us try and simplify this process by not going through party by party.  I put vote 1.

VOTE 1: THE DEPARTMENT OF THE PREMIER - PASSED
VOTE 2: THE PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE - PASSED

I will now put vote 3.  

MR W U NEL:  No, not a point of order, Mr Speaker.  Before you put it to the vote, I would like to move an amendment to vote 3, to increase the amount to R358,998 million.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  There is an amendment from the hon member Mr Nel.  Can we hear the response from the Chief Whip?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the amendment is not acceptable to the IFP.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, as I understand the Rules of this House, it is possible within this House in terms of Rule 131(2) to move an amendment to a money Bill.  If I may read that:

	In an amendment to a Bill referred in Subrule (1) seeks to increase expenditure or to alter the destination of expenditure, such amendment, whether moved in the House or in Committee, shall not be passed unless the Premier has moved or recommended it.

I regret to say that I must, with respect, disagree with the Chief Whip of the IFP.  I am not terribly interested in the views of the IFP, I would wish to know whether the Premier will support or agree to the amendment.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Obviously the hon member seeks to help the Department of Agriculture.  We have tried every possible way to give them adequate allocations, because of the task that faces them.  We have allocated R10 million to the new agricultural union, because it is going to be an important partner for the Department in bringing about a change in subsistence farming.  We have done the best.  We cannot find a further allocation.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Also in terms of Rule 127(2) which reads:

	No amendment which has the same effect as an amendment previously rejected in the committee...

I suppose the DP has put its amendment to the Committee.  It has not.  Okay.  In that case we may consider it.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  I also wish to point out that such a motion cannot be moved, an amendment cannot be moved by a private member to increase the expenditure.  It can only be moved by the Premier.  A member can move the reduction of a vote, but not the increase of a vote, in terms of normal Treasury procedures.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  With respect, Chair, if the hon member who has just spoken will read Rule 131(2), it certainly states quite clearly that a member may move:

	If an amendment to a bill referred to in Subrule (1) seeks to increase expenditure or taxation or to alter the destination of expenditure, such amendment, whether moved in this House or in Committee, shall not be passed unless the Premier has moved or recommended it.

The Premier has indicated he does not support it, therefore the matter stops at that point.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, any amendment cannot be considered, cannot be discussed, you cannot ask the Premier if it is not tabled in writing.  So that must be taken off the record.  [LAUGHTER]

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I think that dispenses with the amendment from the DP and I wish to proceed and move on to vote 4.

MR R M BURROWS:  Sorry, with respect, Chair, and I know it is going to take a little while.  Each of the votes, we are proposing amendment, it is not being supported by the Premier, the vote still has to be moved.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  That is what I am trying to do, Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Vote 3.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Oh.  Well, yes, we are still on vote 3.  I wish to put vote 3 to the House.

VOTE 3:  THE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE - PASSED

We move on to the next vote, that is vote 4.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, we would move to amend that the vote be increased to an amount of R132,885 million.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can we hear the hon Premier.  Is there any response from the Premier on the amendment from the Democratic Party?

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  They are not accepted, sir.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The Democratic Party's amendments are not accepted by the Premier.  I therefore put vote to the House.

VOTE 4:  DEPARTMENT OF ECONOMIC AFFAIRS AND TOURISM - PASSED

I wish to move on to vote 5.  Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, we move that the amount granted be increased to the amount of R6 259 335.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can we get a response from the Premier?

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  It is not accepted.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The Democratic Party's amendment falls away.  I now wish to put the vote to the House.

VOTE 5:  THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION AND CULTURE - PASSED

I want to move on to vote 6 and put it to the House.  Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, we would like to move an amendment that the amount voted to Finance be decreased to the amount of R168,211 million.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Any views on the amendment, Mr Premier?

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Not accepted, sir.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I now wish to put vote to the House.

VOTE 6:  THE DEPARTMENT OF FINANCE AND AUXILIARY SERVICES - PASSED

Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Will the opposition of the Democratic Party please be recorded?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The opposition of the Democratic Party will be recorded.

MRS J M DOWNS:  And the opposition of the ACDP.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The opposition of the ACDP as well.  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, may I get clarification.  I think you can ask when you put it to a vote that reservations be recorded, but not after the House has voted.  You declared that the vote was carried, and after it was carried we get a request that their opposition be recorded.  That should be done before you make the declaration.

MR R M BURROWS:  Rubbish.

MR A RAJBANSI:  He says rubbish because he is engaging in rubbish publicity.  It is all arranged.  Read the papers tomorrow.  This is for the press.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, Mr Rajbansi speaks with expert knowledge about the press no doubt.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, yes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, with respect, Mr Rajbansi is exactly wrong.  Once you have declared there is a choice for the members either to call a division or to declare opposition, but it cannot be done beforehand until you have declared.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  With respect, Mr Speaker, he must do it before you declare the decision.

AN HON MEMBER:  How can you?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Before you declare the decision.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is not true.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Well, I think we will move on to the next vote, that is vote 7.  I wish to put vote 7 to the House.  Are there any proposed amendments from the DP?  Nothing.

VOTE 7:  THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH - PASSED

I want to move on to vote 8.  I table put 8 to the House.  Any amendments from the DP?  None.  [LAUGHTER]

VOTE 8:  THE DEPARTMENT OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT AND HOUSING - PASSED

I want to move on to vote 9.  Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I would like to move that the amount allotted under this vote be increased to the amount of R82,846 million.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can we get the Premier's response to that?

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Not accepted, sir.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The Democratic Party's amendment falls away.  I wish to put the matter to the House.

VOTE 9:  SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICES - PASSED

Vote 10, any amendments from the DP?  [LAUGHTER]  I wish to put vote 10 before the House.

VOTE 10:  PROVINCIAL SERVICE COMMISSION - PASSED

I want to move on to vote 11.  Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I move that the amount allocated under this vote be increased to an amount of R211,024 million.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mr Premier please.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Not accepted, sir.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The DP's amendment falls away.  I now wish to put the matter before the House.


VOTE 11:  DEPARTMENT OF TRADITIONAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS - PASSED

MRS J M DOWNS:  I wish to have the ACDP's "nay" recorded please.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The ACDP's "nay" will be recorded but the "ayes" have it.  We move on to the next vote, vote 12.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I have an amendment to this important vote of Transport.  My amendment is that the salary of the Minister be doubled.  [LAUGHTER]

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mrs Cronje please.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the ANC we would like to know the Premier's response and whether he will recommend that.  [LAUGHTER]

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance and Auxiliary Services):  Mr Speaker, with real regret I have to oppose this because all the other Ministers will want a doubling of their salaries.  [LAUGHTER]

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Well, Mr Rajbansi's amendment falls away.  Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I wish to move that the amount allocated under this vote be increased to an amount of R637,830 million.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can we get the response from the hon Premier?

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Not accepted, sir.

VOTE 12:  DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT - PASSED

Vote 13.  Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I move that the amount voted under this vote be increased to an amount of R3 373 698.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon Premier, your response please?

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Not accepted, sir.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The DP's amendment falls away and I put the matter before the House.

VOTE 13:  DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL WELFARE AND POPULATION DEVELOPMENT - PASSED

Vote 14.  Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I move that the amount voted under this vote be reduced to an amount of R523,149 million.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can we get the hon Premier's response?

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Not accepted, sir.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The DP's amendment falls away.  I wish to put the matter before the House.

VOTE 14:  DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS - PASSED

Could the hon member talk into the microphone.

MR R M BURROWS:  I wish that the opposition of the Democratic Party to this vote be recorded, sir.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Likewise the opposition of the ACDP.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  That will be noted.  I wish to move on to vote 15.  Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, we would like to move that the amount allocated under vote 15 be reduced to nil.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Hon Premier please.

THE PREMIER: (As Minister of Finance):  Not accepted, sir.

VOTE 15:  RECONSTRUCTION AND DEVELOPMENT - PASSED

MR R M BURROWS:  Will the opposition of the Democratic Party be recorded, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I now wish to put before the House vote 16.

VOTE 16: THE PUBLIC PROTECTOR - PASSED

That brings us to the end of the votes and we will now move on to the next item on our Order Paper.  I now wish to put the whole budget before the House, and request each party to stand up and state its position on the budget as a whole.  I will start with the IFP.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Sorry, Mr Speaker, I thought you would simply put the question again.  Quite obviously the IFP have great pleasure in supporting the whole budget.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  ANC.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the ANC has pleasure in supporting the budget as a whole.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  National Party.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, the National Party supports the budget as a whole.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  DP.

MR R M BURROWS:  For reasons indicated throughout the debate of the past 12 days, the Democratic Party will oppose the budget.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Minority Front.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Because we want to earn our name in the press, we will support this budget wholeheartedly.  [LAUGHTER]

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  ACDP.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Also for reasons given throughout the debate, we oppose the budget.

MR M B GWALA: (Whip):  On a point of order.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Point of order, hon member Mr Gwala.

MR M B GWALA: (Whip):  In fact I just want to ask the hon member Mrs Downs, when you talk about "we", who is "we"?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  That is not a point of order.  [LAUGHTER]

MRS J M DOWNS:  I would actually like to answer that question.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Well, I will not allow you because it is not a point of order.  He rose on a point of order.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Sorry?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  It is a question.  We will now move on, hon members, to the next item on our Order Paper and that is the Tourism Authority Amendment Bill.  I would request the co-operation of members here.  I can see that the members have been given one minute, one minute.  So please let us try and restrain ourselves.

MR R M BURROWS:  Point of order, Chair.  I am sorry I have been nudged by my colleague next to me in a friendly manner this time.  I, with regret, just have to point out that I would suggest you declare the result of the vote on the budget, otherwise it could be assumed that it was lost.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Well, Mr Burrows' request that we declare the results.  I would say that the majority of the people in this House supports the passing of this budget.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL - PASSED

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  An overwhelming majority.  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, the reason why I suggested that to Mr Burrows is that you had to declare it.  I think this Hansard must be recorded that "overwhelming" in bold print.  We know the small minorities will get the headlines tomorrow.  [LAUGHTER]

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi, for that advice.  I now wish to call upon the hon Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism, Minister Zuma, to address the House.

8.7  DEBATE: KWAZULU-NATAL TOURISM AUTHORITY AMENDMENT BILL, 1997

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I must apologise before I speak, I have a very irritating and continuous cough so I am going to be coughing all the time.  I have flu, I do not know where it comes from.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism): [Our mothers who knew about Bhagla have died, our wives do not know about it].

Mr Speaker, the purpose of this amendment Bill is to correct certain textual errors which appear in the KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Act, Act No 11 of 1996, so as to ensure that the Act will accurately reflect the intention of the Legislature at the time the Act was passed.  The background is as follows.

The KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Act, No 11 of 1996, was first published as a Bill in the Provincial Gazette of KwaZulu-Natal on 8 November 1996, and thereafter unanimously passed, with certain amendments to the said published version by the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature in December 1996.  The Act was assented to by the Premier on 10 January 1997 and came into operation on 10 April 1997.  

After being assented to by the Premier on 10 January 1997, the Act was published in the Provincial Gazette of KwaZulu-Natal on 12 February 1997.  However, the said published version contained numerous errors, including the inclusion of a subsection 25(4) which appeared neither in the original published version of 8 November 1996, nor was it adopted by the Portfolio Committee on Economic Affairs and Tourism as an amendment.  In the Portfolio Committee's report there is also no reference to such an amendment.

On 19 February 1997 only the English version was republished in The Provincial Gazette of KwaZulu-Natal purporting to correct the incorrect version published on 12 February 1997.  However, the Afrikaans and Zulu versions should also have been published as they also included the said unauthorised subsection 25(4).  So suddenly these two had this insertion which was not there at the beginning.

Furthermore, the republished version still contained numerous errors and/or omissions and such section 25(4) had also not been deleted.  The erroneous inclusion of subsection 25(4) caused a serious contradiction in the Act.  

The date on which the Act should have come into operation was furthermore omitted from all the versions published on the 12th and 19 February 1997.  That is to say from the English, Zulu and Afrikaans versions.

In the Provincial Gazette of KwaZulu-Natal of 10 April 1997 this said date was determined as the date on which the said Act shall come into operation.  The attached amendment Bill seeks to remedy the abovementioned errors.

Only two amendments will affect the meaning of the Act as published, but not the principle and object thereof.

(a)	Section 3(g)(1)(cc) was intended to empower the Tourism Authority "to become partners or shareholders in companies, closed corporations or other bodies and to sell all or part of such shares or interests".

	The words to sell were omitted from the English version of the published version of the Act, and the Bill seeks to insert these words.

(b)	Section 25(4) refers to a situation where a Regional Council fails to call a meeting to establish a Regional Tourism Committee.  This is not in accordance with the intention and decision of the Legislature as set out above and causes a material contradiction in the Act.  Hence the Amendment Bill seeks to delete this subsection.

The remaining amendments contemplated in the Amendment Bill are of a technical nature and do not affect or impinge on the meaning or intention of the Act as promulgated.

In order to enable the appointment of the Tourism Authority to be initiated, it is essential that these amendments be passed during the current sitting of the House.

Before I move, Mr Speaker, I would like to propose that the Economic Affairs and Tourism Portfolio Committee, investigate this matter as to where the mistake occurred.  I have a suspicion that there was a deliberate insertion of subsection 25(4) and in my view, that seeks to undermine the authority of this Legislature.

I would therefore want to make the firm proposal, particularly because that very section had been put in the public debate that had occurred, as well as one party had put it very strenuously as we moved on, and it never got support from the Committee at any level.  It was therefore defeated, but the fact that it then emerged mysteriously and I had to be questioned, as you remember, I had to answer a question in relation to this during this session, that gives me the suspicion.  I would therefore want this House to support that this matter be investigated so that we know exactly what happened.

Having said that, I move accordingly as I have proposed.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Minister Zuma.  I now wish to call upon the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee, Mr Hamilton, to address the House for one minute.

MR A J HAMILTON:  Mr Speaker, the Economic and Tourism Portfolio Committee, having received and considered the KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Amendment Bill, 1997 at a meeting of the Committee on 19 May 1997, recommends to the House that the Bill be adopted, subject, however, to the following amendments, which were accepted unanimously by the Committee:

(a)	The Bill be amplified by providing for the deletion of the heading which appears above the long title of the Act in all three languages;
(b)	Section 4 of the Bill as introduced be amended by retaining the existing wording of section 25(2)(a)(iv) of the Act, leaving only the deletion of section 25(4).

No other amendments to the Bill were proposed or considered.  An amended version of the Bill incorporating the above two changes is attached hereto in all three languages and all members should have it.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Hamilton.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Konigkramer to address the House for one minute.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I will be brief.  I just want to associate myself with the comments of the hon Minister.  I believe that somebody has deliberately set about to subvert the decision of this House.  That is a very serious matter and I believe that we should get to the bottom of how that occurred.

What is most serious about this, apart from having subverted the will of Parliament, but much more serious is the fact that it has resulted in an enormous amount of wasted expenditure, and an even greater amount of wasted energy on behalf of the IPTSC, and thirdly, it has frustrated the staff of the IPTSC who have been unable to carry out the mandate of this Parliament.

With those words, Mr Speaker, I would support the amendments as proposed by the hon Chairman, Mr Hamilton, and secondly I would strongly urge that the Portfolio Committee as a matter of urgency investigate how this came to be.  I thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The hon member Mrs Ina Cronje for one minute.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I support the amendments amending the Act tabled by the hon Minister, and note with grave concern the comments of the Minister and also fully support the hon Mr Konigkramer, and would also lend my support to a full investigation by the Portfolio Committee for ultimate report to this House.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mr Bartlett.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, we in the National Party fully support the Minister and the amendments which have been put to this House.  I agree that these problems we have run into have delayed the implementation of a tourism policy for this Province which is of great concern to all the members of the IPTSC and I am sure all members in this hon House.

I am also very concerned about the suggestion that there was some person or persons or interest group that caused this change in the published Act to have occurred.  I think this is a serious implication or allegation.  I think it should be fully investigated.  We support this.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Nel.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, yes, we too look forward to finding out quite how the ghost clause got there, but would also support this legislation.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The Minority Front supports the legislation and also in respect of other legislation we are going to raise similar queries.  There are people who are definitely writing certain clauses into some of our legislation.  We will have to find them.  I saw them at the coffee shop at the Royal Hotel drafting one of our regulations.  [LAUGHTER]

MR W U NEL:  They are ghost writers.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mrs Downs.

MRS J M DOWNS:  We support the amendments as tabled by the Minister.  We also add our voices to everyone else's with having this grave concern that legislation proposed by this House is being tampered with.  We would ask that an investigation ensue.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon Minister Zuma to wrap up.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to thank the House and the members for their support.  I think this is indeed an important step to make our tourism activities take place in the Province.  I would not want to take much of your time because these are just amendments.  I would like to thank everybody for the spirit with which they have discussed my amendments.  I thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Minister Zuma.  That brings us to item 8.8, that is a debate on a matter of public importance.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Do you not put the question.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I am sorry.  I am sorry.  Could I put the question to the House on the support of the amendment Bill. 

KWAZULU-NATAL TOURISM AMENDMENT BILL, 1997 - PASSED

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you very much for reminding me about that.  I wish to now call upon the hon member ...

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Sorry, Speaker.  They should read it into the record.  The short title.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Oh, the short title.  Yes.  Could the Secretary read the short title of the Act.

THE SECRETARY:  KwaZulu-Natal Tourism Authority Amendment Bill.

8.8  DISCUSSION RE DEBATE ON A MATTER OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE RE ABORTION INTRODUCED BY MRS T E MILLIN

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Let us move on now to item 8.8 and I wish to call upon the hon member Mrs Millin to address the House.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you Mr Speaker.  May I start by thanking the Speaker for allowing this very important motion to proceed.  I would also like to commend the Minister of Health, who I am very happy to see here sitting with us, who appears, as usual, to be a very charming, intelligent and fine looking young man.  The type, quite honestly, that any mother would be proud to call her son.  A doctor into the bargain, dedicated to upholding the sanctity of human life.  I am sure that we all here are very glad that his mother did not have him aborted and left to die gasping for breath, Mr Speaker.

In a pamphlet entitled "Update on Good Governance" which we got in the package yesterday, dated February '97, (the same month as the Circular on Abortion Advice was sent to doctors), Professor Green-Thompson, the Secretary for Health in KwaZulu-Natal states

	"We must be living examples of Good Governance".

Here again, he is lucky, he is alive to make such a statement and that his mother did not have him aborted.  In fact, all of us here present can be similarly grateful, I am sure we agree.  Professor Green-Thompson ......

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, we were all aborted after the due date.

THE SPEAKER:  Will the Hon member continue, Mrs Millin.

MRS T E MILLIN:  I will continue thank you Mr Speaker.  No more remarks from the peanut gallery please and especially when it is not from your own seat!  Professor Green-Thompson also reports in his letter, for immediate release, that 84 abortions have taken place in KwaZulu-Natal since abortion legislation was adopted.

My colleague, the hon Mrs Constance Mkhize, in her speech during the health debate, expressed concern at this number.  However, I contend, shocking though any and every abortion might be, this figure of 84 is in actual fact surprisingly low given the fact........ 

MR J H JEFFERY:  INTERJECTION

MRS T E MILLIN:  Even you I am glad were not aborted at birth, Mr Jeffery, and that is saying something!  Given the fact that the citizens of South Africa were bombarded by the ruling Government and its cohorts with the myth that the vast majority were clamouring for abortion on demand, with the prospect of queues and queues of pregnant women just waiting for the green light to abort their unwanted babies.

However it is patently obvious that such is not the case, Mr Speaker.  In fact an abortion on demand for the vast majority of our citizens is neither acceptable nor wanted, and illustrates with striking clarity how the ANC led Government ignored overwhelming public concern, outrage and rejection of abortion on demand.

The hon Minister Mkhize, in repudiating the hon Mrs Downs yesterday, on the figures she gave of 75% of ANC supporters not in favour of abortion on demand, must, I am afraid, be himself repudiated.

With respect hon Minister, according to an independent survey conducted in 1996 by the Mark Datateam, an arm of the Human Science Research Council, it showed that the highest opposition to abortion on demand came from ANC ranks, namely ANC 78.7%. Freedom Front 75,2%, IFP 74,6%, National Party 73,7% and the DP 40,5%.  In a survey by IDASA also in 1996, 72% of the general public was opposed to abortion on demand, and in the national opinion in Mark Datateam which you can all read at leisure, we all get this excellent magazine put out by the Helen Suzman Foundation.

You can see that was in early 1997, the overall opposition from all groups had increased to 74,3%, described as crushing opposition in Focus.

HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MRS T E MILLIN:  Keep quiet Mr Ainslie!  You too, I am glad were not aborted at birth!

HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MRS T E MILLIN:  All parties who value true democracy should allow their members a free vote on conscience issues.  Surely the free vote is the very essence of democracy.  Sadly, the party that claims the...

HON MEMBERS;  INTERJECTIONS

MRS T E MILLIN:  name of democracy in its title, the DP, compelled its members to vote for the Abortion Bill.  Shame on you!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Two minutes.

MRS T E MILLIN:  interesting to note, four voted in favour in the DP, and three were absent.  Ha!  Ha!.  My party, the IFP, in the true spirit of democracy gave its members a free vote, as did the National Party, I commend you National Party...   A bit of praise for you for a change!  

The majority ANC party, in stifling free choice ensured that this shameful and shoddy legislation was passed by a small majority on October 30 1996, a day of shame for out nation, our having rejected God's holy laws, to be replaced by fundamentally flawed man-made laws, passed by an assembly of so-called honourable members applauding at length, legislation legitimising genocide on a scale a Hitler or Stalin would have envied.

Mr Speaker, Dr Green-Thompson in the concluding paragraphs of his letter, makes somewhat overtly political statements, for a department official, namely

	The Government chosen by the vast majority of South Africans decided to implement this law and "those who disagree with the law will again have the chance to make their voices heard in 1999. 

It is a process called democracy, he says.  May I add the ruling Government, may, repeat may have been elected democratically but I question, are they governing democratically?  That is the point... 

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MRS T E MILLIN:  When clearly public opinion in the form of hundreds of thousands of petitions and submissions, surveys, letters to the press, marches and demonstrations opposing abortion on demand were simply ignored.  

I thank you at this stage.  That is all I have to say.  Thank you Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you Mrs Millin.  I now wish to call upon Dr Luthuli to address the House for 7 minutes.

DR A N LUTHULI:  Thank you Mr Chairman and members of the hon House.  I am quite amazed at what the hon Mrs Millin has been telling us.  

HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.

DR A N LUTHULI:  We have got Parliament, you know which is put there by the people.  Bills are passed in Parliament.  All Bills in the past and present time, even under the previous Government were passed in Parliament.  That is the way democracy functions.  
And when they are passed in Parliament they would not be Bills if they were defeated.  This Bill has been passed by the majority in a democratic fashion in a Parliament of the people.  I really do not understand what you are on about.

HON MEMBER:  Neither does she. 

HON MEMBER:  You must write notes.

DR A N LUTHULI:  I am sorry, no Government can govern by going to the streets in the manner that you have been telling us and Bills are passed that way.  I am sorry.  It just does not work like that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

DR A N LUTHULI:  If we look at the situation here, if we look at what is happening here, we have got this Bill as I have said already, it was passed democratically.  It gives the people of this country the right to choose.

I have no right in a democratic situation to go and stand in the way of your choice, in a free democracy.  I do not have that right.  You also do not have a right to come and stand in the way of my free choice, and that is democracy.  That is democracy.  Imposition of your own will on me is not democracy.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!   Hear!

DR A N LUTHULI:  When we see what is worrying Mrs Millin, I do want to say that in the request to the Speaker for a debate on a matter of public importance, you will note that the Minister has already withdrawn the first part of your concern.  So we can dismiss that.  It does not exist.  It is not there.  In fact this debate is about nothing.  It is really about nothing.  You are trying to bring in a matter here which has already been decided in Parliament, and you are bringing it in in other ways.  If your worry was what Minister Zwelini Mkhize is supposed to have said, he withdrew it yesterday.  Therefore this debate is about nothing.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

DR A N LUTHULI:  On the second matter there, the definitive Provincial Protocol is being finalised by the Department of Obstetrics and Gynaecology at the University of Natal.  That is being finalised, it is not yet finalised.  So that will answer your concern number two.  I have nothing to say about concern number three - it is really no concern.

Now we are talking about the period 13 to 12 weeks of pregnancy which is stipulated in the Act.  I want to say clearly to this House that the foetus at that stage is not viable.  Go to school.  Go and spend 7 years, you will learn that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

DR A N LUTHULI:  Yes, the foetus at 13 to 20 weeks is not viable.

HON MEMBER:  Mrs Millin does not know.  She is not a doctor.

DR A N LUTHULI:  She is free to go to medical school it is open.  Even at that age they do not chase anyone away.

HON MEMBER:  But you have got to be intelligent.

DR A N LUTHULI:  I also want to draw the attention of this House to some figures.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Two minutes left.

DR A N LUTHULI:  Which are interesting really.  

HON MEMBER:  Unlike Mrs Millin's.

DR A N LUTHULI:  We have here figures, 1994 legal abortions for the period 1 January 1994 to October 31 1996, this new Bill which you call the Bill of the ruling party came in after that.  There were legal abortions before.  You did not make the noise you are making now.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

DR A N LUTHULI:  There were, there were, but they were for some people and not the others.  Let us read the figures, they speak for themselves.  1994 Addington 48, Benedictine 1, Charles Johnson Memorial 1, Empangeni 4, Grey's 22, Murchison 1, Northdale 4, Newcastle 1, Ngwelezane 1.  So you see the picture there?  R K Khan 10, total 93.  The bulk came from Addington and Grey's Hospitals.  So those abortions were there. 

1995, Addington a similar picture, 40. Benedictine, Charles Memorial, Empangeni, 1.  Grey's Hospital 43.  King Edward Hospital 10, R K Khan 13.  

Now we come to 1996.  It is still the same picture where you have Addington 36, Empangeni nothing, Grey's 57, Kind Edward Hospital 5, R K Khan 9.  Now you see a picture there.  It is clear that these legal abortions were taking place.  But who had that opportunity?  Whilst some people were having legal abortions they were safe in hospital.  The other people who now can have this facility were dying from having their abortions illegally.  And I think maybe some members like that.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The Hon member's time is up.

DR A N LUTHULI:  These were done in terms of the old Act which really indicates that the incidents of terminations in terms of the new Act have not really increased.  Now she gave you the figure of 84 abortions since October '96.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

DR A N LUTHULI:  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Redinger to address the House for 3 minutes.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MR R E REDINGER:  Thank you Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman I ask for protection so that I may address the House.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  You have my full protection.

MR R E REDINGER:  Thank you.  Mr Chairman, this is of course a very highly sensitive matter.  This legislation is probably the legislation that most intimately effects the lives of individuals and people.

When I was asked about my views before the abortion legislation came into effect I had a standard reply.  I said to people who came to me, do me a favour, go and visit the hospitals in our Province on a Friday evening, and see how many people present themselves at the casualty wards with incomplete abortions.

That is a fact of life.  Those incomplete abortions amounted to literally hundreds of cases, if not thousands.  It always happened on a Friday evening, especially at King Edward and those hospitals, where people would present themselves and probably, if they were lucky they would be back at work on Monday or Tuesday the next week.

That is a fact of life, and in fact it has been going on for many many many years.  So there is no simple standard reply or response to this issue which is so terribly sensitive.  

My heart goes out to a woman who loses her baby, when it is stillborn, prematurely.  My heart goes out to that person when that child is born prematurely and is alive and then should be kept alive, if at all possible.  But the matter is not a simple matter.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  One minute.

MR R E REDINGER:  Mr Speaker, I maintain that we have had abortion on demand, which was induced illegally, but we have had abortion on demand for all time as it is.  That is a fact of life. I just wanted to say that to bring a bit of balance to this matter and speaking as a former MEC of Health.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you Mr Redinger.  I call upon Mr Burrows to address the House of 2 minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you Chair.  The Democratic Party by Federal Congress passed a resolution by majority, an instruction that its public representatives were to support legislation leading to the termination of pregnancy.  The Democratic Party supported that national legislation, last year.  There has been, as has been noted, no flood into the hospitals as a result.

However the motion that is being presented here today and the circular which is referred to, which I have had an opportunity to scrutinise certainly appeared.  I know it is going to be withdraw and I am going to talk about it, certainly appeared to go far beyond the scope of the National Legislation itself.  We believe that that circular was unacceptable, we are pleased to note that it has been withdrawn, as the hon the Minister noted yesterday.

We suggest that whilst we are pleased that the University is involved in the drafting of a circular and guidelines to the hospital that this be done extremely carefully and with both medical and legal advice.  We do not believe that it is sufficient to word it in the manner that it was worded in the past.  However we are glad that this debate has taken place, since it does focus on the issue of the Termination of Pregnancy Act, which is a piece of legislation and law, which has to be applied by the Department of Health within this Province.  I think it behoves all members to try and understand how that piece of Legislation must be made to work in our hospitals.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you Mr Burrows.  I wish to call upon Mrs Ford to address the House.

MRS O E FORD:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The termination of pregnancy, it sounds so much more civilised than abortion, but it means exactly the same thing.  I think to put the hon member Dr Luthuli's mind at rest, I personally, am not against abortion where there is need.  I am against abortion as a means of contraception and as a means of controlling the population.

I have already mentioned the problem of counselling Mr Speaker, for applicants for abortions, and would like to list just some of the things, the dangers that women face.

In the United States legal abortion for 21 years there, it is the sixth leading cause of maternal death.  The risk of tubal pregnancies doubles after one abortion, and increases as time goes by after more abortions.  Pelvic inflammatory disease is a common and serious complication.  Women who have first trimester abortions double their risk of breast cancer.  Psychological effects on the mother causing feelings of guilt and depression, some women never get over these feelings.  So please, counselling must be given as was promised by the Department at a Portfolio Committee meeting, the utmost consideration.

It is not fair Mr Speaker, to allow a woman to have an abortion if she has not been properly counselled.  I know, we have heard that the Minister is going to withdraw this guideline.  I hope part of what is to be withdrawn is that the counselling can be done by any health care provider, whether they have been trained or not.  I must emphasize that.

HON MEMBER:  Hear!   Hear!

MRS O E FORD:  The Act states that the choice will be entirely that of the woman.  Can we honestly consider a young girl of 12 or 13 a woman, capable?  She is capable of falling pregnant but is she capable of making that decision without the consent of her parents, without their knowledge if necessary.  Anybody under the age of 18, I think it is, cannot have an anaesthetic without the consent of their parents, their guardian or somebody.

But some young girl can go and present herself at a clinic and say I am pregnant I want an abortion, without any counselling, nothing, the job is done and she is on her way again.  Fantastic.  A fantastic world.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MRS O E FORD:  There is one question I would like to ask the members of this House.  How many of them have actually gone out into the rural areas, addressed meetings and asked the women there whether they want abortion on demand.  The women I have addressed Mr Speaker, have said no!  If there is an urgency to it, if there is a reason for it, if it is rape or something like that, I have no problem.  If you genuinely need an abortion, fine.

HON MEMBER:  Hear!   Hear!

MRS O E FORD:  I am pleased the hon Mr Cele, you are giving me a little bit of doubt as to whether how pleased I am, that you were not aborted.  [LAUGHTER]   I would appeal to the Minster  today, to publicly withdraw the guidelines issued in this document by Dr P S Maharaj, on 21 February. 

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  One minute left.

MRS O E FORD:  Do not let your party be known as the baby killers instead of the life-givers because the way this is worded, Mr Speaker it says in cases where the gestation is further advanced and an infant is born who gasps for breath, it is advised that nothing is done.  Please, I appeal to you Mr Minister.  Thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you Mrs Ford.  Mr Rajbansi to address the House for two minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The hon Dr Luthuli, in giving us the statistics, together with what the hon Rudi Redinger has stated that things are now balanced, but of course every religion, religious leader will give you a lesson, that the Almighty decides your destiny.

You know Bheki, somebody wished that Bheki might have been aborted.  [LAUGHTER]  But it is the decision of the Almighty that he remains in the Universe because he was taken to Tongaat, and somebody said the wrong man has been brought, so he is with us.  They tried to abort him just a few years ago.

You know Mr Speaker, I met a very great Christian, a black American, Dr Miles Monroe, gave us an excellent lesson of how God determines who is born, and who is not born.  I honestly believe that when the mother takes the decision, that decision is taken by the Almighty.  And the Almighty decides.

HON MEMBER:  Never, never.

MR A RAJBANSI:  But there is a great debate.  Apart from viability of the foetus which the Dr Luthuli referred to, is when does the soul enter the body?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Half a minute.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Are we taking a decision on behalf of a foetus that already has a soul.  That person who can confirm that, is not yet born.  I will say that I will take my seat, waiting for that person to be born.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you Mr Rajbansi.  I now wish to call upon Mrs Downs to address the House for two minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I will address myself very quickly to the myth that legal abortions are safe abortions.  I am quoting from the feminist book called Agenda, and it says here:

	Sandra was admitted to a private clinic with septicemia because her uterus was not properly evacuated.

That was a legal abortion.  There was an example of several more.  I suggest you get it and read it, and especially when the Act actually allows non-doctors, non trained doctors to perform abortions, we are going to have many more medical problems with women than we solve by legal abortions.

But let me now address myself to the issue at hand which is this circular which was put out by the Medical Department, and that is the issue which is raised by Mrs Millin.  I really submit to you that if this circular had not been brought to public scrutiny, if the spotlight had been shone upon it, that it would still be there.  That hospitals and medical personnel would be following these guidelines.  

I am very glad that the Minister of Health has withdrawn this document.  We will be checking on it.  We will continue to bring these things forward to this House for public debate.  This shows the value of public debate because without this public debate this document, as I said before would still be in force.  It is actually beyond expression.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Half a minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I cannot express how we feel about the document.  The statement that we made in here to say that it is disgusting is not expressing enough dissatisfaction.  I cannot even think of the words of this Department.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS.

MRS O E FORD:  The members are worrying me again.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Order please.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I can answer the question about Mr Fakude, he has gone to the IFP.  I wish them well with him.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you Mrs Downs.  I wish to call upon Mrs Millin to address the House for 3 minute again.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you Mr Speaker.  First of all, I would like to thank all those who participated in this lively debate.  I just wish we had had more time because really, this is a very serious subject.

Mr Speaker, as has been said, the Minister has told this House, that the particularly offending Clause 8.2 of the circular to doctors has been withdrawn.  If so, such a withdrawal is welcomed, and should vindicate, and would vindicate, the actions of such organisations as "Doctors for Life", in putting the necessary pressure on the powers-that-be to withdraw this advice.

However, I would like to say Mr Minister, one would require a categorical statement to this effect, and an undertaking that the Minister and his Department officials will distribute such information to the relevant medical personnel.  I really do appeal to you to do that.

I would just finally like to actually make an appeal to our State President Mandela, to use and exercise his discretion and to actually repeal this entire legislation and start again.  

I would just like to point out, also, that I think it is Swaziland which has had this Legislation,... they have been sitting on it for three years and have still not actually passed it, and King Boudewijn of Belgium actually abdicated,u rather than sign such Legislation into being.  I really would appeal to our State President to really show statesmanship and repeal this Legislation.  Thank you Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Order please.  Thank you Mrs Millin.  Finally I wish to call upon the Minister of Health Dr Mkhize to respond.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Thank you Mr Speaker.  I must thank the hon members for the debate.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!   Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  I must also say as I indicated yesterday that this is a very sensitive issue.  I think as I have said, again if you were to be here in another 20 years time, this issue will be as topical and emotional.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear!   Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  I would therefore approach the issue from the point of sensitivity that it has, and explain once more that the issue of the circular has been withdrawn.  The reason for withdrawing it was that it was open to misinterpretation.  Therefore we believe that it should be withdrawn.

I want to ensure the members here that this particular circular was circulated to professional doctors and nurses, and I can assure you that no babies would have been killed as a result thereof.

I also want to give you a bit of background.  I believe there is an issue which has raised the point at this stage, it is not because people did not quite understand what was meant in the guideline.  I thought what was involved here was that people were wanting to pick up the issue because it is their right to challenge this Bill, and challenge this Act.  It has been challenged and we know that people have got very definite views about it.

The Medical Research Council's findings, I will just give you a few things which were also part of the background of this legislation.  An estimated 44,686 women in South Africa present themselves to hospitals with incomplete abortions every year, and that is the group that hon member Mr Redinger was referring to.  The vast majority of these are caused by illegal abortions.  It is estimated that 99% of those are black.  The average age was 28 and ranged from 14 to 49 years.  Estimated that 1,425 women die in hospital every year from illegal abortions, and the costs to the State for treating incomplete abortions was estimated at R18 698 648 per annum.

I will just touch briefly on the nature of the Act.  I think we need to deal with the misconception that one has picked up.  Firstly, I do not believe that this debate necessarily would have actually brought us to withdraw this.  I think it was adequate.  It was a draft and in their comments the people have pointed out something which is not quite clear.  From that point of view it would have been withdrawn in any case.  The debate was to focus on the facts that people have got views, and I may as well just go ahead and express those views, insofar as the position of this Act is concerned.

I would therefore quote on this Act 92 of 1996 the circumstances in which, and conditions under which pregnancy may be terminated. 
2.	(1)	A pregnancy may be terminated -

	(a)	upon request of a woman during the first 12 weeks of the gestation period of her pregnancy;

	(b)	from the 13th up to and including the 20th week of the gestation period if a medical practitioner, after consultation with the pregnant woman, is of the opinion that -

		(i)		the continued pregnancy would pose a risk of injury to the woman's physical or mental health; or
		(ii)		there exists a substantial risk that the foetus would suffer from a severe physical or mental abnormality; or
		(iii) 		the pregnancy resulted from rape or incest; or:
		(iv)		the continued pregnancy would significantly affect the social or economic circmstances of the woman; or
	(c)	after the 20th week of the gestation period if a medical practitioner, after consultation with another medical practitioner or a registered midwife, is of the opinion that the continued pregnancy - 
		(i)		would endanger the woman's life;
		(ii)		would result in a severe malformation of the foetus; or
		(iii)		would pose a risk of injury to the foetus.

I must say that in the last two I can talk of personal experience where a decision has had to be made that rather than losing the mother, you rather lose the baby.  That is a medical decision which has taken place.

HON MEMBER:  Hear!   Hear!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  I want to question the issue if you are saying that is killing babies and that is concentration, I say think again.

The next issue I want to deal with, deals with another portion which is on page 4, which is conscientious objection.  I want to read this because one member indicated yesterday that there was a guise under which we were conning doctors into doing some of the terminations, and I want to declare here that it is not possible to con a doctor and make him do what he does not intend doing.  

And in this case page 4 here says sub-section 8 says:

	Subject to sub-section 2 no person shall be under any legal duty, whether by contract or by any statutory or other legal requirement to participate in the termination of pregnancies, if he or she has a conscientious objection to the termination of pregnancy.

I want to state that that is what the law says and we stick to that.  Therefore there is no issue of anybody who might actually be forced to do what they did not intend doing.  There is no one who will be forced to actually be a baby killer, as has been mentioned.

I also want to deal with a few myths about this whole question of termination of pregnancy.  First is that this Act is there to encourage abortion.  Untrue.  The Act is meant to stop illegal abortions and to decrease septic abortions and also stop the complications that are related to it, such as septicemia, such as pelvic infections and hysterectomy as a result.  I hope that the hon member will open the speaker somewhere outside where she will be going, so that before we complete the debate she would have been part of the whole discussion.

And of course we wish to reduce the risk of death which has been mentioned.  I can recall as a student, when I was doing Std. 8 we lost a class mate because of this problem.  She had a boyfriend who was employed.  She was too scared when she discovered that she was pregnant, and she tried this illegal abortion, which we call criminal abortion and of course we lost her.  And this happens every day.  It is something that is going on in a number of places.  I think that is also what we want to try and stop.

The second myth is that no counselling is done, and whoever asked for termination of pregnancy will get it.  It is not correct.  And again we have said that on the issue on Section 6, the Act states that:

	The counselling will be done at the cost of the State.

Which means that those employees who are there will actually be the ones who are doing the counselling.  I do not believe that you will actually take a general worker or a sweeper in the hospital and ask him to go and counsel a patient, and tell her what it means to have a termination of pregnancy.  What is meant there is that you do not want to have a specific category of counsellors who are going to sit there and do the counselling, but those who are actually qualified to do this can do it.  And if they need further training that can be given.  It is all in those guidelines that have been given.

One of the things that has got to be stated clearly that is stated in the guidelines, that we have actually circulated, is that you first want to know the reasons for the termination, and subsequently you also offer the alternatives.

The other point that has been raised by the hon member Mrs Downs is, it has not been said that termination of pregnancy has got no risks.  Any operation has got a risk.  Even without an operation, by just going into a hospital, there is a risk.  You can get what we call streptococcus infection which is infection from bugs that are loitering around in the hospital.  So everything about a hospital is a risk.  This is why we are trying to keep a lot of people out of hospitals.

And of course there is another myth that no abortions have been done before in this country.  The figures have been read.  In fact it has been done before.  I want to challenge anyone who says that the issue of termination of pregnancy, that this Act is actually licensing people to be baby killers, because it has gone on before and certain hospitals have been doing it. 

I can tell you it is the doctors who have to face the women who are crying when they have got a problem.  They explain all their problems to them and they are the ones who have got to actually find the reason for this person wanting the pregnancy to be terminated.

But I want to go on and say, I am not going to burden you with the figures because the figures have been read here by hon member Dr Luthuli.  

I want to also go on to the question that family planning has been abandoned and that termination of pregnancy is the new form of contraceptive.  It is a myth.  It is untrue.  In fact when people come for termination of pregnancy they have got to be counselled on family planning before as well as after the termination.  This is a myth again that we are now saying that people must go.  It is a free-for-all, you can do what you want, you will get a termination.  It is not true.

Religious teachings which declare premarital sex to be taboo have to be encouraged and are actually being encouraged.  Cultural traditions which are the ways that have actually reduced pregnancies before like [Foreplay or the advice that used to be given to young girls by the older girls].  Encouraging virginity like in the places where we have got ukuhlolwa kwezintombi [like the examining of virgins] and so on, that is encouraging because the whole issue of making sure that we can delay sexual activity as late as possible, until somebody is mature to handle it themselves, we are actually encouraging that.  So I think it is a myth.

I think if somebody has it in mind that termination of pregnancy is there as a form of contraception, no woman ever goes out to fall pregnant so that she can terminate her pregnancy.  It does not happen.  I think it is actually undermining the thinking and the integrity of woman, to believe that anyone can actually decide to go ahead, fall pregnant as many times and you will have a termination now, you will have a second one, you will have a third one because it is legal, it cannot be true.

The effect of the Act is that it allows an individual a choice.  You choose as an individual what you want to do.  The main issue on the termination of pregnancy is also the issue of psychological trauma.  You have got to be sure that if you are taking somebody through a termination they will be able to face the problems of the psychological trauma.  That of course is a serious issue, and of course it is not the only thing that somebody considers.  

How many girls have actually been driven to termination of pregnancy, because they have been rejected by boyfriends?  How many of them have been driven because they are scared to tell their mothers and fathers, and the reason why they are scared to talk to them about their pregnancy is that they have not been taught how to go about the issue of relationships.  That is where we need to be concentrating.

The biggest problem, everywhere you go the mother will be worrying what the father is going to say?  There is no co-operation.  As a result the young girl will then run around and say look I do not want anyone to know about this.  It does not only happen with young girls, even to old people it happens. 

I am therefore saying that all social, medical, cultural and religious forms of contraception have to be encouraged.  But what if this fails?  I do not think we should actually bury our head in the sand and behave as though everything we wish would happen does happen.  A lot of things do not go right.  It is now not for you but it is for the doctor and that particular individual to try and sort it out and see what they can to do about it.

What if there has been rape?  According to the records we have, according to our district surgeons they have recorded in this Province 5 383 rapes.  What do we do with those pregnancies?  When those people become pregnant what do we do with those?  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health):  Then we have got another report here from the district surgeons, they have actually got this from the police service, who have recorded from 0-17 years the number of rape cases reported were 4 107.  I do not want to read the rest of the figures.  But that to me is actually the issue.  What if there is incest?  In fact in some of the situations where we have actually allowed the younger girls to go for termination, without necessarily the consent of the parents, is when the children are so scared because maybe one of the parents or relatives were involved.  And that is a serious matter.  We cannot behave as though we are not aware that there are those types of things.

When you make a ruling, you have got to make a ruling based on the fact that there must have been a reason why somebody decided to have a termination.  And what if there is a threat to the mother?  Sometimes you have got intractable heart cardiac failure, and you have got to deal with it.  Sometimes you have got asthma, sometimes you have got serious problems of bleeding, sometimes it is very severe hypertension and those are some of the problems.

So what I want to say is that the issue of termination of pregnancy is an issue of an individual.  It is an issue of that particular person, it is an personal issue.  Therefore let us keep the Government out of it, let us keep the doctors out of it. Doctors have treated people with sexually transmitted diseases.  They have not gone back to them and said, because you have got this through an unfaithful relationship you are not going to be treated.  We have not done that.  You go ahead and you treat them and then counsel them on how to behave.  But you cannot say because somebody has made a mistake therefore they must actually take a risk and end up having themselves killed.

So we want to be able to say to people that there is life after those kinds of mistakes, there is a life after there has been a termination of pregnancy.  It is a matter of the conscience and the conscience is the one that will determine.

It may be a scene but I also want to refer to the fact that we should not be the ones who should judge other people.  We should let the individuals make their own decisions.  I just want to quote one story in the Bible that refers to a situation where a woman was actually caught because of adultery and everybody was ready to throw stones at her and then of course in John Chapter 8, Verse 7, Jesus said: [When he had asked the question he spoke and said to them: "He who has no sin amongst you let him be the first one to throw a stone"].

So the issue here is, we should not be the ones who are judging other people but if it is a sin, it is a matter between the person's conscience and his God.

But for us here we must actually do our best to save the lives that we can and leave the individual to take the decision.  Leave the doctors out and leave the Government out.   Thank you very much Mr Chairman.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you Dr Mkhize, Minister of Health.  Hon members, I now wish that we proceed and go to the second debate on a matter of public importance.  Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I wonder if I could raise a point of order before we proceed to the next item on the agenda?

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  You may do so.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, you were not in the Chair at the time, but you will recall the incident surrounding the hon member Mr Bartlett.

I stood up and suggested that the matter should be referred to a disciplinary committee and it was left hanging in the air.  What I should have referred to was an ad hoc committee, but in the heat of the debate I used the word "disciplinary" instead of ad hoc.  This was supported by the other parties and I would like to suggest the matter be referred to an ad hoc committee to investigate the actions of the hon member and the events surrounding his actions, to report back to this House before the next plenary.

The ad hoc committee should consist of four members from the IFP, three members from the ANC, two members from the National Party and one member each from the minor parties.  That that committee should convene and then deal with this matter.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Tarr.  In fact I wanted to deal with those.  There are two issues actually because the hon member Mr Powell also raised an issue about the Chairman giving a ruling on the utterances of the hon member Mr Bartlett, when he said the hon Premier is racist.

So I have been holding that matter because I wanted to deal with it right at the end, once we have finished all our debates.  Since you have raised it, I think we should just deal with it now.  Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, we did support the hon Chief Whip of the IFP initially, and one can understand his comments, "in the heat of the debate" he used the wrong terminology and referred to the disciplinary committee.  We will still support his proposal as amended now.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Cronje.  I take it therefore that this House agrees that an ad hoc committee will be established, as recommended by the hon Chief Whip which will look into the matter, unless there are further submissions or comments on the matter.  If there are none, I take it that is the decision of this House.  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, we cannot have another committee that might not exist.  I think you must authorise the Whips to ensure that the names are supplied within three days.  The names of members from the various parties.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, yes.  That was an oversight of mine.  I would suggest that the names of the members to serve on the committee could be submitted to myself, and then the committee itself can elect its own Chairperson.

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of correction - to the Secretary.  We must never submit names to the Chief Whip of any party.  This is Parliament.  I want to propose that amendment.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I am sure there would not be any objections to that.  So the names will be submitted to the Secretary.  Mr Redinger.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  The National Party welcomes this move.  Thank you very much.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Redinger.  So our decision is that we will establish an ad hoc committee made up as recommended by Mr Tarr and supported by the ANC and other political parties.  The names will be given to the Secretary of Parliament, and that has to be done within three days from today.  That disposes of the matter.



RESOLVED TO ESTABLISH AN AD HOC COMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE INCIDENT INVOLVING MR G S BARTLETT

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I just want to deal with the issue of a ruling that was requested by the hon member Mr Powell, and wish to say that I wish to reserve my judgment at this moment.  I will give my ruling at a later stage, maybe at the next sitting day of this Parliament.  If it is not me in the Chair, the hon Speaker will deal with the matter.

Let us proceed and now deal with the second item, that is the next item, that is 8.9.  That is the debate on a matter of public importance as requested by the hon member Mr Mabuyakhulu.  Mr Mabuyakhulu, the floor is yours for seven minutes.

8.9  DEBATE ON A MATTER OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE CONCERNING AN INCIDENT AT MKUZE.

MR M MABUYAKHULU:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, in introducing this debate, I am of course deeply saddened by the fact that three years in a democracy, we are still experiencing incidents such as the one that occurred during the early hours of Saturday morning, this last Saturday, on 17 May 1997, where a group of policemen, allegedly policemen, based at Jozini working together with the Stability Unit, went to the ANC Regional office at Mkuze, at about 1:00am in the morning.

They kicked the door of the office down, they went into the office when there was nobody accompanying them.  They forcefully entered that office.  They ransacked the office, trashing everything in that office, pulling out drawers, fiddling with the computers and also opening the filing cabinets of the ANC in that office.

This kind of scenario is one that is very synonymous with our immediate pass.  A scenario where we used to be chased in every corner of this country.  A scenario where the ANC as a party was regarded as an unlawful organisation.

What is therefore happening in the area of Jozini and Mkuze and around the ~Ubombo~ areas, is something that we can never tolerate in a democracy, where you have people who have been given the very responsibility to protect society but who themselves are acting like hooligans and thugs.

Sometimes one runs out of words to explain these kind of disgusting acts on the part of these members of the police service.  However, I want this incident to be taken in the context with what they have done in the past.  This is not the first time.

Earlier this year the Post Master of the Mkuze Post Office was dragged and killed by members of the South African Police Service.  Until today that case has never gone anywhere.  Yet we must expect that these very individuals are there to ensure that they maintain law and order in this country, and in particular in this Province.

When we were running towards Local Government elections in that area, the leaders of the ANC in the Ingwavuma and Manyiseni areas and Ubombo area were constantly harassed.  Days before the election their homes were visited in the middle of the night, their families were intimidated and some of them were even arrested on spurious grounds made by those police officers.  They were subsequently after the elections, released which then tells us that those individuals are playing politics with us.

I cannot help, but to regard these kinds of individuals in the police service, that their mission is a mission that they want to continue to undermine the kind of image we are building for the police service in this country, from an ~apartheid~ service to a democratical service, that is actually policing a democratic State.

I cannot help but to regard these individuals as people who are actually undermining the Constitution, which protects legal political formations in this country.  If you can have individuals going to the office of a legal political party in the middle of the night and kicking down the doors and entering and trashing and doing all kinds of things that they did in that office.  I cannot actually understand any other thing except that they are undermining democracy.

They are also doing something else.  If we were unable to get people who were close by who saw those individuals that they were members of the police service, we would have assumed that it might have been the IFP.  They would have wanted us to assume it would have been the IFP.  They want us to pin the ANC and the IFP.  It is these kinds of gangsters within the police service that we must never allow to reign supreme, when there is a rule of law in this country.

People like these need to be taught a lesson.  A lesson in the first instance that they are not above the law but secondly, we need to take prompt action in dealing with them.  In taking prompt action in dealing with them we must with immediate effect investigate this matter.  In fact I would have wanted a situation where we investigate the matter when they are already suspended.

I would like to know who gave them the order to go in the middle of the night to kick down the door and forcefully enter an office of a lawful organisation, when there was no one under the guise that they were actually searching and they were looking for illegal weapons?  I cannot buy that.  I believe they have their own agenda, they are federal.

I think the time is right that we, who are the honourable people in this country, in particular we in this Legislature, must stand up and deal with the rogue element within the police service.  That rogue element is tainting and tarnishing the image of the good men and women within the police force.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Two minutes.

MR M MABUYAKHULU:  Mr Speaker, I am saying this because we continue in that area, to receive very disturbing reports, about arms and illegal weapons that continue to infiltrate this Province from that part of the world.  Yet we have the so-called police people whose responsibility is to investigate, whose responsibility is to actually stop those kind of illegal activities from happening.  They do not do that, but instead they go and actually force themselves into the office of a legal organisation.

I therefore want to end by saying I think the hon Minister of Safety and Security in this Province, together with the Portfolio Committee will now take effective steps to investigate this matter promptly and to bring those individuals to book.  We must show them that they are not above the law.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Mabuyakhulu.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Konigkramer to address the House for five minutes.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Let me preface what I am going to say by saying, that we on this side of the House would certainly totally support your request that this be thoroughly investigated.  We would also support fully that it is totally unacceptable that members of the police, if they did what you say they did, then it is totally unacceptable.  It should be thoroughly investigated.  As a party that has suffered a lot from similar actions in the past, I want to make the following observations.

First of all, while we as political parties have been intimidated, I agree, it needs to be attended to, but I think even more serious is the fact that the police on a very large scale to this day, are not only invading the privacy and destroying offices of political parties, but they are actually invading the homes of people, almost on a daily basis, thousands of them.

For example, in Mandini, my former colleague Mr Lee, produced much, much evidence to show that almost on a nightly basis the police would go in and kick the doors of houses down.  It is happening in many other areas and it is totally unacceptable and we as political parties are no different from ordinary people.  So with that proviso, as long as that is understood.

Those who are more knowledgeable on this, have informed me that one of the reasons why this happens is because there is a provision in the Police Act, which actually allows the police to do this.  You can use reasonable force when you believe that a crime is being committed on the premises.  Now that to me is a licence to do the sort of things that are happening and it needs to be stopped.

On the question of the smuggling of arms into KwaZulu-Natal.  I do not want to engage in polemics and cause unnecessary strife, but I would ask my hon colleague to be very careful when you talk about the smuggling of arms into that part of KwaZulu-Natal, which is still going on and the police have done nothing about it.  When the party to which the hon member belongs, as recently as 1993 smuggled large amounts of arms illegally into Natal through the Golela border post, and those arms were used for political purposes.

The other thing that we need in this House to address is that some of those arms were used to attack members of this House.  The hon Mrs Mchunu, was attacked by individuals and she was nearly murdered but that individual has not been prosecuted because somebody has granted him indemnity.

These sort of things we cannot think that we can now start from a clean slate.  Things that were wrong in the past must be put right and particularly since we are talking about that particular area, this House still owes Mrs Mchunu an explanation as to why somebody that tried to murder her and murder her family has not been prosecuted.  Those things have got to be attended to and once you have done that I think we can begin on a new footing.

It is not my intention to cause strife, we would thoroughly support the hon member as long as, as I say, there is equity and that things are dealt with on a fair basis.

In addition, just lastly, Mr Speaker, it is a fact in my judgment, that units of the police that are politically motivated and controlled from Pretoria have been used to further the aims of political parties in this Province.  That too has got to stop.  We cannot have those sort of things carrying on any further and if we can achieve that, and I believe consensus can be achieved on that basis, then I believe we can all go forward together.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Hon member Mr Bartlett.

MR G S BARTLETT:  Mr Speaker, the National Party is totally opposed to any form of political intolerance and especially actions perpetrated by the Safety and Security forces of the South African Government.

We therefore, and I want to say to the hon member, unreservedly condemn such events as has been described by the hon member Mr Mabuyakhulu.  In fact we support his call for very strong action.

However, Mr Speaker, in the light of the many incidents of South African Police Services' members being involved in political action in recent months, which include acts of gross human rights abuse, such as the burning of people's homes, attempted murder, and if we are to take President Mandela at his word, even murder in the case of Councillor van der Spuy of Richmond, we in these benches question whether this particular act, by itself constitutes a matter of urgent public importance to be debated in this House.

I would have thought, especially after the attacks on Mr F W de Klerk's submissions at the Truth and Reconciliation hearings last week, by both the Chairman and the Vice-chairman of the TRC, and might I say, by certain of the ANC members, that a truly important matter of urgent public importance is the fact that members of the South African Police Services who are, after all, public officials of the present South African Government, are actively involved in more than just trashing an ANC Regional office, but are also involved in acts of gross human rights abuses such as murder, attempted murder, intimidation, destruction of property and indeed of driving people away from their homes or residences.

Late last year a member of the South African Police Services along with another person attacked the home of a National Party member, at a time when a vigil was being held for an NP branch secretary who, along with another National Party committee member, had been shot dead by two masked gunmen.

In that attack, four people were wounded, but fortunately, one of the attackers was shot dead and he was a policeman.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Half a minute.

MR G S BARTLETT:  If I say fortunately, Mr Speaker, because had he not been shot dead a massacre of nearly 20 people could have taken place in that house.  This is known by the police, it has been reported in this House before, and I assume that President Mandela is obviously aware of these facts.

So therefore, while we support the hon member, we say that if we are to accept the so-called logic behind the criticism levied at Mr de Klerk last week, during his appearance before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, then I believe it must follow that President Mandela must not only apologise to the nation for these acts by his public servants, but I suggest that perhaps he should also apply to the Commission for amnesty, sir.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Mr Nel, for four minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Speaker, I am baffled by the conclusion that the hon member Mr Bartlett has just drawn.  I fail to see the comparison that he draws between acts for which the prior National Party Government should account for and renegade civil servants who happen to transgress the law now, which is an entirely different kettle of fish altogether.

We too in the Democratic Party obviously cannot condone this kind of behaviour and the act that took place.  Quite frankly we are baffled that this should be presented to this House for debate as a matter of urgent public importance, because we do not think it qualifies.

I do not understand whether this is actually supposed to be because the motion itself does not implicate members of the South African Police Services, it in fact just simply refers to an attack without apportioning blame.  Yet listening to this debate we suddenly now find that it is a direct criticism and the implication is that it is an attack that was carried out by members of the SAPS.

So we do not know, the Democratic Party certainly does not know whether this now purports to be a motion of no-confidence in the SAPS and perhaps the National Minister of the SAPS, or is it an allegation of continued third force activity and if so, at whose behest and who is paying for the bill.  Thirdly, perhaps is it just a party politically motivated attack on the IFP by insinuating that somehow they are behind these attacks on ANC offices in Mkuze.

I really do not understand why this has been brought to this House to be debated in this fashion.  We are, however, happy to hear that the hon Mr Mabuyakhulu, has suggested that the Provincial Minister should take this up.  We would endorse any actions of our Provincial Minister in taking the initiative to use some of the powers which he has in Safety and Security.

So yes, sir, we would like for this to be cleaned up and to be cleared up and we would certainly appreciate if our Provincial Minister takes up the initiative to make sure that we find out what lies at the bottom of it.  Just again, to come back to the hon member Mr Bartlett, I fail to see the comparison he draws between acts and human rights abuses in the previous regime which were racially motivated and party politically motivated to those now perpetrated by renegade civil servants in whatever department.  I thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  Mr Cele for five minutes.

MR B H CELE:  Thanks, Mr Speaker.  Really, the conclusion by Mr Bartlett defies even the most flexible logic of an illogical person.  I would not really waste my time on that.  What I would suggest is that we do have a problem on our hands that we need to deal with, much broader than what we see.

We need to deal with the police and try to improve and get the best out of the service we have in hand.  Maybe if we begin to follow a few clever or quite brilliant advices from the book, "Community Policing in Action", by Stevens and Young, when you open it at page 3 and you read:

	We believe that the community is at the heart of effective policing, a close and positive relationship between the police and the society it services is the essential precondition to effective policing.

So that has been killed here and is being killed so we cannot expect then effective policing if there is that.  We could continue and we read another paragraph that says:

	Police need to reflect the society they police.

Which is still one of the very big problems we are facing here, that the organisation has not begun to reflect the society that it is policing.  They need to be more representative of the community.  This is vital to improving communication with and confidence in police and in easing tensions that are there.

An active and vigorously applied equal opportunities policy and strategy is essential.  This impacts on the working practices and also delivery of service.  Training in this area is an essential influence both to unlearn racism and sexism and also to identify ways of applying good practice to ensure non-discriminatory services to members of the community.  Along with training it will be important to monitor progress.  Failure to monitor could result in action.

So this House has a constitutional right to monitor what is going on.  We will have to follow that up.  It has the constitutional right to begin to deal with the relationships.  The thinking is that it is only the communities that will have to improve their relationship with the police.  Yet, if the communities will have to take one step definitely the police will have to take two, because they were deliberately separated from the communities they serve.

So I will urge that rather than look at this small incident, by small meaning focusing on this one, we need to follow up a few things like training, like improving, like the re-orientation of the police that were disorientated by the National Party.  So we have a task to orientate them again and to tell them that their main duty is to protect and provide the service, not to be feared and run away from them whenever you see them.

So that is the task of the Minister and the Portfolio Committee and all of us to begin to implement some basics that really were eroded by that unscrupulous Government of the National Party, for 46 years.  I thank you, Speaker.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Cele.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mrs Downs to address the House.  Oh, she is not in.  The next one on the list is the hon member Mr Ntombela who will address the House for five minutes.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip):

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Chairman.  Firstly, I want to say that this is a serious issue that has been brought by my colleague on the other side, as a result of the incident that happened at Mkuze.

I had intended to speak about a lot of things, but because of the spirit that I have seen today, which is good, where I also saw the strength of our Premier, that he has wisdom that has been given to him from heaven, by meeting His Honour there on the other side, Nxamalala, and fixed up the house.  This spirit makes it possible that when we speak, we speak with one spirit.

I applaud that.  That causes me, as an old man, to refrain from dragging out some of the things that I would have done.  I do not want the old man to drag out things that have passed.  I think that when we talk about this issue that happened at Mkuze, it is necessary for us to speak indeed, and to dredge out the whole truth.

So that Father Msholozi, and our Premier, and the Minister who is in charge of this Department of Safety, so that we can look at this thing, and say that we need to condemn this.  Not merely to condemn it because it has been brought by a colleague in the ANC, there are many things that have happened in this Province.

In this Province there is a big problem.  The problem is, Mr Chairman, the person who is in charge of the police does not have any power.  If Nxamalala, and our Premier, and all the Cabinet, as it is obvious that we are eating out of the same dish, that is the IFP and the ANC, we need to come out into the open and say that the Minister of Safety needs to be given powers to be able to carry out his function.

My friends, I want, as an old man, to say that nobody who is in control of his own home would tolerate the situation where his home is controlled by another man, because that would mean that if I had a wife, my wife, there should be another man who would lay down the law to me.  I do not think that there is such a thing, because that would mean that the Minister of the Department of Safety, that there is another man who is laying down the law to him.

I do not think, Msholozi, that we should say that there is peace which will occur in this Province.  We strongly condemn the fact that the police went during the night and entered offices when there was nobody there, and they broke down doors and did all those things.  Indeed we condemn it.  We would not agree to that.

We must also remember that this is not the first time it has happened.  A lot of things used to happen, and those things were done by the police.  At Mandini people are being killed, nobody has been arrested yet.  Then because certain persons were pointed out, it was then said that it was them.

There at Impendle, Shange was arrested, and hit, and tortured by the police.  A charge was laid, Mr Chairman, up to this day nobody has been arrested.  We must be willing to look carefully at this issue.  If we are going to tell the whole truth, Nxamalala, my father that I like very much, just look at this issue.  What sort of police do we have at the police stations, because there is this bad thing that is happening that people say that the IFP has its own branch of police in the police stations.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [The hon member has one minute].

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 
TRANSLATION:  I think that the other police, Nxamalala, realise that it is said that there are police that are known as POPCRU.  My friends, I will not rest, Ndosi, if this thing called POPCRU has not been disbanded.  It must be the South African Police, not the police of a party.

I am saying that should not happen.  My friends, there at Ntambanana a teacher was taken by the police, but that teacher Mabaso was discovered in the mortuary.  Who killed him?

I am not saying that he was killed by the ANC.  It means that some people are using the third force that has been spoken about. When something happens, as it has happened at Mkuze, then it is said it is the IFP that has sent the police.

There is the IFP office where a whole wad of muthi was put, because they wanted us to say that it was the ANC that had put it there.  I say let us look at this thing as the IFP and the ANC.  That there is somebody who wants to keep us at loggerheads, and then that person becomes a spectator when there is confrontation between the great bulls.

That has become clear today in this debate that the ANC and the IFP walk together.  They say we are voting.  Those on the outside say we do not vote.  That is their concern.  Thank you, Chairman.  T/E

THE ACTING SPEAKER: I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Mabuyakhulu to address the House for three minutes.

MR M MABUYAKHULU: 

TRANSLATION:  I thank you, Mr Speaker.  I thank the hon members of this House, that when a person raises an issue of such importance they were able to conduct the issue in the way in which it has been conducted.

Mr Speaker, I will not say much about some of the members that are always taking a contrary view.  I would just say that it is shocking when one hears a member of this House, such as the hon Mr Nel, saying when there are persons that go to an office of a party and force their way into it while there is nobody there, that is not an important issue, that is not an issue which could be regarded as an issue of public importance.  According to the DP then, what is an issue which they would regard as an issue of public importance?  

I want to come back, Mr Speaker, and say on this point that we are considering, it is important to us as members of Parliament, in this House of yours, to be very careful not to have the embarrassment and shame on us, of having allowed criminals that we found in the Police Force to continue with crime.

We want to deal with those criminals, and cleanse the name of the police that work well in the Force.  There are many policemen and women who do a good job.  I also, sir, want to thank Mahlobo for the words which he spoke, which are similar to mine when I said the committing of this type of criminality, the intention behind this type of criminality is to bring us in the ANC into confrontation with the IFP.  Fortunately or unfortunately for these criminals we were able to see now that somebody is throwing stones between us.  We must not allow them to do this.

I want to say, Mr Speaker, I am grateful for that.  I want to end by saying I am grateful for the fact that all the members agree that this issue that I have tabled in your hon House is an issue which needs to be addressed with great haste.  There needs to be a skilled thorough investigation indeed, because in this area the police will cause the situation to be unnecessarily sour.  Then they will continue causing us to be at loggerheads.  They align themselves with some on this side, and they align themselves with some on that side, and they commit filthy deeds.

We must not allow this right now.  We must work on the assumption that we will confront the bad people, because they still call themselves the Special Branch there at Jozini, whilst we know that the Special Branch has been disbanded for a long time.  That is what I wanted to say, Mr Speaker.

Lastly, I want to say that when that investigation has been done, we would be grateful for it to be placed before this House of yours, so that those who do these things in the Police Force will know that this House, which is the House which passes laws, will never again tolerate happenings such as these.  With those words, I thank you, Mr Speaker.  T/E

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I just wish to remind the members of the public and the press that we have raised this matter in the past, that people should not put their feet on the railings at the top there, or to lean over the railings, because it does not give this House the dignity that it deserves.  So I request those members of the public to refrain from doing so.

Lastly, I wish to call upon the hon member Minister Ngubane to address the House.  The Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  As I understand, the House rises today until the next plenary.  Oh sorry.  [LAUGHTER]  The Minister has not spoken yet.  Sorry.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Oh I see.  ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, sorry.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and of Safety and Security):  Mr Speaker, I do not think anybody will blame you.  We seem to have too many Ngubanes here.  [LAUGHTER]

Mr Speaker and your hon House.  I think first and foremost let me thank your hon members for such a debate, as far as this matter is concerned.  The matter before your hon House is of course a very delicate one and it needs a degree of attention.  As some members have already put it across, I can say let us come together as different political parties in the Province with the aim to reduce, or if possible to bring violence to a dead stop.

What is said to have been done to the ANC offices brings some confusion.  I am told here that on the 16th of this month in fact, of this year, police received information that there were some illegal weapons somewhere in that area we are talking about.  It was also said that such weapons were being used by some taxi people to attack each other.  It was also revealed that another objective for these firearms was to commit armed robberies.

Then according to that information, a search warrant was issued by the local magistrate of Ubombo.  The police then  proceeded on their way to go and search, where they had been directed to.  Unfortunately, during the search or fortunately, I do not know what is correct there, but during that search nothing was found.  I do not have any details as far as any damage to ANC offices is concerned, but it must be kept in mind, hon members, what the objective of the police was.

In other words, it was not to harm or to harass ANC members or to destroy their office, but the members of the SAPS were doing their duty, after somebody had whispered to them that there were some illegal firearms in that office.

That was the information.  Nobody can prove that, hon members.  I do not deny that there was something done to the computers and other things, but it was just ordinary information from the members.  No member can prove that.  Therefore I do not expect members to say anything as far as the matter is concerned, because that is why the proposer here said there should be an investigation, because nobody amongst us here is cock-sure of what really happened.

As I said in my budget speech, the aim of the police was to get rid of all illegal firearms.  In fact as a Police Department we will continue to do that.  To remove all these illegal firearms with the aim to bring not only our Province to normality but South Africa as a whole.  If there is any smell of any illegal firearm anywhere police will act accordingly.  How such action was done really, that is another thing.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Can we hear the point of order from Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, on a point of order.  I am not sure that the hon Minister is discussing the same topic as the hon Mr Mabuyakhulu introduced.  He is referring to an incident on the 16th.  Perhaps we can get clarity on that matter.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  I am sure the Minister will address that.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs and of Safety and Security):  I think the hon member is out of order because I have said the report came to the police on the 16th.  I do not deny that the searching was done on the 17th.  That is what I said here.

After it had been whispered to the police about the influx of these illegal firearms, they as the police had to act, as I have said, immediately.  Not to find the firearms does not mean to say there were no illegal firearms in that vicinity.  Perhaps police were misled to go to the ANC office, but it does not mean to say there were no illegal firearms in the same vicinity.

Therefore I agree with the hon member, which was supported by other members in the House, that an investigation is to be done as far as the matter is concerned.  I also agree that we have to table the results of such an investigation before this hon House, sir.  I thank you.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That brings us to the end of our debate today.  Before I adjourn the House I wish to call upon the hon Premier to make whatever announcements he might have.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  As I indicated, we will be presenting to Cabinet tomorrow a proposal to begin with the work on creating toilets and water supply tanks, and so on, throughout the schools in KwaZulu-Natal where these facilities do not exist.  The process will carry through the rest of the life of this Government, to earmark certain key targets, targets that are crucial to communities be it health, be it education, be it traditional affairs and rural development but to actually target such areas, and proceed very swiftly to bring a change.

I think this will be to the service of this House if Cabinet adopts such an approach.  Of course we will deal with these matters through the Budget Council, the DG and of course the relevant Portfolio Committees will be involved.  We intend to set up an interdepartmental technical committee to bring about co-ordination between departments.

I would like to thank the hon members for the very hard work that was done over the past two weeks.  I think we have brought honour to this Province.  I inadvertently found a channel on TV which had a debate of this House on the international channels.  It was very interesting because the whole debate was broadcast.

I think when investors see the work being done here their confidence to invest will be strengthened.  So I hope that we will continue working with the Portfolio Committees in the interim until our next plenary.  Thank you very much.

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  I have been reminded by the Secretary that in fact we are supposed to take a formal decision on the recommendation to set up an investigation team or to investigate the matters proposed by Mr Mabuyakhulu and I think supported by the Minister of Safety and Security here.  I just want to put the matter to the House.

THE MOTION BY MR M MABUYAKHULU TO INVESTIGATE THE INCIDENT AT MKUZE - PASSED

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  So for record purposes we have formally taken the decision that we are going to investigate the matter.

At this point I wish to adjourn the House and thank all the members for their participation during this budget debate.  I think we have had a lively debate in all the votes and we have been able to resolve whatever differences came up.  I thank you very much for that.  Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, before you adjourn.  I think our heartiest congratulations goes to you for rescuing us at the time when the Speaker and Deputy Speaker were not available.  In my experience, I say from experience, you set a very high standard.  Keep it up.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE ACTING SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  At this moment the House adjourns sine die.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED SINE DIE AT 17:40


