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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;&#9;25.09.1996 NAME: REBECCA MAPOGO

CASE: 1565&#9;&#9;&#9; KLERKSDORP

DAY 3

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CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mapogo, can you hear me, are you comfortable? Can you hear me?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: We say a special word of welcome to you. We are very happy that you are with us. You have brought somebody with you. Is that your mother sitting at your side?

MRS MAPOGO: She is my aunt.

CHAIRPERSON: Very welcome. What is your aunt's name, please? I would like to know what your aunt's name is in order to welcome her.

MRS MAPOGO: Sarah Mapogo.

CHAIRPERSON: Sarah Mapogo, very welcome to you too. Before

we start, Mrs Mapogo, may I ask you to stand to take the oath. If you will just stand, please.

REBECCA MAPOGO: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Now Mrs Mapogo, Dr Fazel Randera will guide you through your testimony.

DR RADERA: Rebecca, good afternoon.

MRS MAPOGO: Good afternoon, Sir.

DR RADERA: Yes, I am.

DR RADERA: Rebecca, you have come to tell us about Stephen Loving Kauba. He was killed by what - when he was shot from a military vehicle on the 7th of March 1990. You are coming from Ventersdorp, is that right?

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;2&#9;R MAPOGO

MRS MAPOGO: Yes.

DR RADERA: Rebecca, before we get into you telling your story, perhaps you can just tell us where are Stephen's mother and father?

MRS MAPOGO: They passed away a long time ago.

DR RADERA: So Steven was staying with you?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes.

DR RADERA: Can you please tell us something about Steven, how old was he, was he going to school, was he a member of a political organisation?

MRS MAPOGO: When Steven died, the witnesses gave Steven's years as 54 years and he was still schooling.

DR RADERA: Sorry, was he born in 1954?

MRS MAPOGO: He was 54 years, he was born in 1937.

DR RADERA: But you said he was still going to school. Now was he your uncle?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes.

DR RADERA: Thank you, that makes it a bit clearer. What was Steven doing in 1990 when this happened to him? Was he working?

MRS MAPOGO: He was from work after he knocked off. Then he passed at my home, he went to his younger brother. Then he got the marshalls who were singing but they were not fighting. 

DR RADERA: What was his work?

MRS MAPOGO: He was working as a gardener at the hospital.

DR RADERA: And was he married?

MRS MAPOGO: No, Sir.

DR RADERA: Did he have any children?

MRS MAPOGO: No, he had no children.

DR RADERA: Sorry, can you go on and tell us what happened 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;3&#9;R MAPOGO

on that day.

MRS MAPOGO: In 1990, on the 7th of March it was at about past eleven, he was from work. He found these children where they were playing, but there was no fighting. He was from his mother's home to his younger brother's home. When he passed in the direction of our home, he was standing and other children were there. At home they were toyi-toying. Then the Hippo passed, the first one passed. Then it turned at the circle. Then it returned to Makweti. The second police van passed again. Then one policeman appeared who was hefty. He showed my uncle a gun and then he shot him with bullets. The first bullet was on the mouth, the second one on the heart, the third one on the waist. Then he died dinstantly. 

&#9;At the time the hearse was called, together with an ambulance. When the two cars arrived, one called Joubert asked somebody and said who shot. The other said the person who shot is Steven. Then he said who is Steven? Then he said Steven who was working with you at the hospital. Then he said who shot? Then he said the second Hippo is where the bullets were coming from. Then he called to stop them. Then they came. Then he asked them, why did you shoot this man? Then he said it was a mistake, I was not sure that I will be able to shoot him. Then he said look, what have you done, is you have shot an innocent person. Then they took out the stretcher and put him in an ambulance. Then they took him to the hospital. From the hospital they didn't even stay one day, then he was taken to the mortuary. They took him to Diepkloof mortuary. Then he stayed there for two weeks.

&#9;Then he was saying he was carrying two petrol bombs. 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;4&#9;R MAPOGO

Then they said this person is not a fighting person. Then he doesn't like things. Then they were thinking that he has petrol bombs. Then we left with my aunt to look for his papers. 

&#9;On the third week they came from Diepkloof mortuary, then they wanted us to identify the corpse. Then we were able to identify the corpse. Then they gave us his clothes. Then we came back home. 

&#9;On the 21st of March we buried our uncle. 

&#9;After that, on the 8th of March we were taken to Johannesburg ANC headquarters, where we filled in the forms, but we do not understand what was happening, because I did not understand. Then we returned home. We left those forms there. Then we went back home. 

&#9;After that the person who was coming to us was Mr Morris, who used to come to tell us the process and the procedure of the whole thing. They haven't come through.

DR RADERA: Rebecca, thank you very much. You were with your uncle at the time when he was shot. You were standing next to him with - I think you mentioned some other people's names. There were Teddy and Archie, all standing together.

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, Sir.

DR RADERA: How far was this police vehicle from you when this man shot?

MRS MAPOGO: It was about a distance from where I am standing, perhaps maybe to these booths where these people are in. 

DR RADERA: And you say there was no, people were not running around, they weren't throwing stones. You and your uncle and your two friends, and other people were just toyi-toying, but you were just standing there. Is that right?

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;5&#9;R MAPOGO

MRS MAPOGO: Yes. The people were just standing.

DR RADERA: Was there anybody else who was shot on that day?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, people were shot, two people were shot.

DR RADERA: Were they killed?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, they were killed.

DR RADERA: On that afternoon three people died?

MRS MAPOGO: Phiri Matupi and Steven Kauba.

DR RADERA: Now in your statement you also say that when Hannes Joubert, who was the ambulance driver, who worked at the same hospital and knew your uncle, came to the spot, he actually spoke to the people, to the person who shot your uncle. Is that right?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, that's true. He was asking why did they shoot Steven. They said it was a mistake. They were saying they didn't know what they were doing. Then he told them that now, see that this person has died. And they said that they are very sorry of what they have done. Then he said it doesn't help because he has died.

DR RADERA: But initially you said in your statement they were laughing?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, they were laughing.

DR RADERA: They were laughing during the time that they were shooting people or afterwards?

MRS MAPOGO: After they had shot they were laughing.

DR RADERA: And then when Hannes Joubert came they actually apologised?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, Sir. Then Hannes Joubert called them. Then he talked with them. Then Hannes Joubert said you have shot a person who is innocent.

DR RADERA: Do you know the names of these - were they policemen or were they Army people?

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&#9;6&#9;R MAPOGO

MRS MAPOGO: They were private policemen.

DR RADERA: Private policemen?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, Sir.

DR RADERA: They didn't have any uniform on?

MRS MAPOGO: They were having a uniform, but they didn't have their - they didn't have their epaulettes. They didn't identify themselves, Sir.

DR RADERA: Would you be able to recognise them?

MRS MAPOGO: I just know that he is a hefty person, but who is very short. He was not staying at Ventersdorp, I don't know where he comes from. The person who should know them is Palmer, who has called them.

DR RADERA: This is the former station commander?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes.

DR RADERA: Mr Palmer?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, Sir.

DR RADERA: But he has been transferred somewhere else, you say.

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, Sir.

DR RADERA: Now you went and you filled in some forms at Shell House in Johannesburg.

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, that's true, Sir.

DR RADERA: And this Mr Morris who came afterwards to see you, was he a lawyer from the ANC?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, he is the person who accompanied us to the Shell House in Johannesburg. He was helping us to fill in the forms. He was a leader of the ANC.

DR RADERA: Is he from Johannesburg or from Ventersdorp or where is he from?

MRS MAPOGO: This Morris, he is staying at Ventersdorp.

DR RADERA: He stays in Ventersdorp.

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;7&#9;R MAPOGO

MRS MAPOGO: Yes.

DR RADERA: Now once that was done, you know where the bullets went in. Was that from the post-mortem?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, it was from the post-mortem report. My elder uncle is the one who came with the information, and those papers, we lost them when we were on our way.

DR RADERA: After that, was there an inquest?

MRS MAPOGO: There was nothing extra, Sir.

DR RADERA: Did you report it to the police station?

MRS MAPOGO: We did report it to the police station but they didn't help in any way.

DR RADERA: So Mr Morris - did you got and ask Mr Morris again after that what was happening?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, we went to ask him. Then he said we should not be impatient, we are so many, so we should not be impatient, they will give us a report later.

DR RADERA: So you are saying that after the post-mortem you heard nothing else, besides filling in some forms with Mr Morris?

MRS MAPOGO: We didn't hear anything thereafter.

DR RADERA: Rebecca, I don't have any further questions, thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Rebecca, I just have one question. Your uncle, he lived with your family. Is that correct?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, that's true, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your family dependent upon him, his income, did he contribute to the family's finances?

MRS MAPOGO: Can you repeat the question, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Did he bring money to the family?

MRS MAPOGO: Yes, he is the one who was taking care of the family. He was buying us everything. He was clothing us, 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;8&#9;R MAPOGO

buying us food.

CHAIRPERSON: And when he died, what happened to the family?

MRS MAPOGO: We were just suffering, not having somebody to look after us.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you so much.

DR RADERA: Rebecca, and your auntie, you know sometimes we are lost for words when we hear the stories that people tell us. I must say I am lost for words right now, because here was a man who was doing his work, who had his job, who was on his way home, supporting his family, and people shoot at him. Then they actually say that they were not sure whether they would be able to shoot at a person. There are so many of these stories of what happened in our country, and even in these last few days, as we have heard, the stories from different townships in this, what I call the circle, the old Western Transvaal area, undoubtedly there were young people, there were elderly people like your uncle, who were either tortured or in your uncle's case, killed. We need to find some answers. 

&#9;In many ways, I think one of my fellow Commissioners, Ms Sooka, said yesterday that the very people who are meant to be the custodians of our safety, appear to be implicated in what was going on. 

&#9;Her appeal and my appeal, of course today, is that we need to listen from their side, so that this truth that we talk about, can be laid open and we can understand what happened from both sides. 

&#9;I thank you very much for coming and you will be hearing from us again. Thank you very much.

 

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KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

