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DATE:&#9;27 JUNE 2000
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 DATE:&#9;&#9;&#9;27 JUNE 2000

NAME:&#9;&#9;&#9;JULE GEORGE MARTINS

APPLICATION NO: &#9;AM6450/97

MATTER:&#9;&#9;&#9;KILLING OF BENJAMIN JOHNSON &#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;LANGA ATTACK ON POLICE &#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;VEHICLE - SOWETO

HELD:&#9;&#9;&#9;PINETOWN MAGISTRATES COURT

DAY:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;2

_____________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: It's the 27th June 2000 and we're about to proceed with the application of Jule George Martins, application number AM6450/97. The Panel consists of myself, Chris de Jager, Advocate Sigodi and Mr Lax. Would the representatives kindly place themselves on record?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Chairperson, Eric van den Berg from the firm Bell, Dewar and Hall. I appear on behalf of the applicant.

MR BIZOS: May it please you Chairperson, I am G Bizos and I appear on behalf of the Langa family. I would like to put their names on record. Sam Langa, brother; Justice Pius Langa, brother; Queen Langa, sister; Mandla Langa, a brother and Bheki Langa, a brother and also on behalf of their immediate and extended family and also on behalf of Ms Tembeka Qaqa - I hope I've done the pronunciation justice, the late Ben Langa's companion during his lifetime. Thank you Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, Ramula Patel, I appear on behalf of the victim, Mr Mtetwa. That's in the second incident that the applicant has applied for.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Name?

MS PATEL: It's Mr Mtetwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Mtetwa. Yes Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Chairperson. I beg leave to call the applicant. He is present and seated on my left. If you could have him sworn in?

JULE GEORGE MARTINS: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Martins, you have before you a bundle of documents prepared by the TRC. Can I refer you to page 1 of the bundle through to page 3? That is the copy of the original amnesty application form which you submitted, is that correct?

MR MARTINS: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And I refer you to page 3 at the bottom of the page, that is your signature that appears there?

MR MARTINS: Yes it is.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now the application was not signed before a Commissioner of Oaths. Did you have legal representation or assistance when you completed this form?

MR MARTINS: No I did not.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Were you aware that this form needed to be signed before a Commissioner of Oaths?

MR MARTINS: No, at the time I wasn't aware.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I show you a form - Mr Chairperson, I will hand this up in due course and a copy has been given to my learned friend Ms Patel and to Mr Bizos.

&#9;Is that the amnesty application form which has been retyped and signed by yourself?

MR MARTINS: Yes it is.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, could I hand the original up? It's the original which was signed before a Commissioner of Oaths.

CHAIRPERSON: But the contents is the same as the previous one?

MR VAN DEN BERG: It's exactly the same, it's simply been retyped.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Chairperson, we've also prepared a statement from which I wish to lead Mr Martins. I do have copies for the Panel.

CHAIRPERSON: Could we mark the form Exhibit 1 of Exhibit A and the statement Exhibit B?

MR VAN DEN BERG: As it pleases you, Chairperson.

MR LAX: Mr van den Berg, we've already got this statement. It may not be the - is it a different one?

MR VAN DEN BERG: There may be one or two typographical corrections. If you have referenced particularly to paragraph 14. I think I may have changed the numbering. There in paragraph 14 of the document you have is entitled "The attack on a South African Police Van in Soweto". I've just removed that numbering and then the paragraphs thereafter become renumbered 14, 15, etc. I think that was the only real change.

MR LAX: Well we may as well get it then.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'll hand these up then.

&#9;Mr Martins, if I could take you to the statement which we've prepared, you say in paragraph 1 that you left South Africa during May 1984 to join the African National Congress. Can you recall the date on which you left?

MR MARTINS: No, I can't exactly recall the exact date on which I left. 

MR VAN DEN BERG: Was it before or after the arrest of Payi and Qulu?

MR MARTINS: It could only have been after the arrest Qulu and Payi.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now from the documents which are before us, that appears to have been on the 7th June 1984. Would you have left before or after that date?

MR MARTINS: It would have been after that particular date.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You say that you left South Africa via Umtata and Lesotho, is that correct?

MR MARTINS: Yes it is.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What were your circumstances immediately prior to your departure, where were you residing, with whom were you residing?

MR MARTINS: I was residing in Edendale, Pietermartizburg, with my brother who was working at ...(indistinct) Centre back then. I was a student at Athon High in Pietermartizburg. 

MR VAN DEN BERG: You say in paragraph 3 or you outline in paragraph 3 some of the political activities in which you were involved. Would you just repeat that for the convenience of the Committee?

MR MARTINS: Well, I was an active member of the ...(indistinct) Youth League. I was a member of COSAS too back then. Furthermore we were involved in a number of UDF and mass democratic related campaigns, political campaigns etc etc. You take part in the day to day campaigns of the UDF and similar structures back then.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you. Sorry Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 1, you joined the ANC whether it was during May 1984. Who recruited you?

MR MARTINS: I left exile, I left for exile around June 1984 and that's when I joined the African National Congress formally.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: In paragraph 4 you deal with your relationship with Sipho Qulu. When did you first meet him?

MR MARTINS: I met Sipho Qulu in the early 1980's. That would probably be 1980, 1981. Sipho Qulu was a youth leader of the Sabantu Youth Congress, that was based in Sabantu, Pietermaritzburg. As a fellow student and youth activist we met with Sipho in various UDF and mass democratic movement related campaigns.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Do you recall when he left South Africa?

MR MARTINS: Yes, more or less it was still in the early 1980's. Probably 1981, 1982, I can't exactly recall when exactly he left.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you say in paragraph 5 that when left or when he disappeared it was obvious to you that he had gone into exile. Why do you say that?

MR MARTINS: First of all Qulu was an ANC sympathiser like we all were. The colours of the Sabantu Youth League were black, green and gold, ANC colours. Similarly, so were the colours of Disomatione Youth League. In our songs, freedom songs etc etc, the people that we paid tribute to were ANC leaders, ANC stalwarts living and dead. So when he disappeared, yes, it wasn't difficult to put one and one together vis-a-vis that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Alright. You say in paragraph 6 of your statement that you met Qulu again during May 1984. What were the circumstances under which you met?

MR MARTINS: Well Qulu came to my brother's apartment in Edendale, Pietermartizburg. We had been living at this apartment for quite a while so he just pitched up one day there and he was with Lucky Payi. He introduced Lucky Payi, in fact that Lucky Payi is a fellow guerrilla, he's been infiltrated via Swaziland into the country and this is the comrade with which he will be operating with in the country.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Were you introduced to anybody else at that time?

MR MARTINS: Yes, there was a particular gentleman that was with them. He was driving a car and they introduced him by the name of Dennis and that's the only name that he was introduced to.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What name was used in respect of Lucky Payi?

MR MARTINS: Lucky. They used his first name, Lucky Payi - sorry, just Lucky. I did not know what his surname was until much later.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And then what were your personal family circumstances at the time?

MR MARTINS: What do you mean?

MR VAN DEN BERG: You say in paragraph 6 that your brother was on trial for treason?

MR MARTINS: Yes, my brother was on trial for treason, he was on trial with Stabiso Mashobo and Duma Dubule. The three of them were on trial in Pietermaritzburg for treason.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What came of that trial? Were they convicted, were they acquitted?

MR MARTINS: Stabiso Mashobo was accused number 1, got sentenced to 20 years. My brother got sentenced to 10 years and Duma Dubule got acquitted, I think with a suspended suspense and that's what became of that trial.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The initial meeting that you had with Sipho Qulu. What was discussed?

MR MARTINS: Well, Sipho basically said that "George, I am now a trained MK guerrilla, I'm going to need assistance from people whom we can rely on in the Pietermaritzburg region and the first person that I thought would be of help is yourself" given that the leadership, the senior people who were operative in mass democratic structures in Pietermartizburg back then were literally all on trial or in detention, you know, or underground etc etc so I suppose me and him having been political activists in the past, you know, I became a natural person to come to and besides my brother was on trial.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Right, can you have a look at paragraph 7 and 8 of your statement? You'll read those into the record?

MR MARTINS: I should read them?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Please.

MR MARTINS: Okay.

&#9;"Qulu advised me that he was back in the country and that he sought assistance. Immediately this involved the recruitment of people for training for the continuation of the armed struggle. At the time that I met Qulu he was armed. My understanding was that I would receive military training internally. We did, however, discuss this in any great detail. Qulu also advised me that he sought information. I gave him brief overview of developments in Pietermartizburg since he had left. I did not know where Qulu was based, nor did I ask."

MR VAN DEN BERG: And you say you met Qulu and Payi on several other occasions. Can you relay what was discussed in respect of Dr Faith Motlabani? 

MR MARTINS: At one of these particular meetings between myself, Qulu and Payi, they asked what was happening with regard to the continuing treason trial that was happening in Pietermartizburg. I briefed them and essentially the content of that discussion went something like Faith had given evidence against the three accused, that Faith had apparently been, you know, had gone overboard in terms of him giving evidence in that particular trial. It did not seem like Faith had been forced by the system or the South African Police back then. It looked like Faith had gone on and on about the evidence that he was giving to an extent that apparently the prosecutor, you know, had to at one stage, you know, instruct Faith that that is enough. You know, he was more than willing to give evidence in that trial.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Where did the discussion lead to?

MR MARTINS: After I had briefed them about my knowledge that Faith had given evidence, they then said that how would it be, you know, if we would actually kill faith, you know? And the three of us, I don't think Dennis was there, it was me, Payi and Qulu, actually agreed that yes, it would be okay, you know, given that in the early '80's when someone gave evidence against a fellow comrade, that person was considered a sell out and yes, that was the content of our discussion.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And did you put that plan into action?

MR MARTINS: Yes we did. After we had spoken with Sipho Qulu and Lucky Payi, we actually went to Faith Motlabani's place and on arriving there one could see that his car was parked where it would normally have been parked. We went to his apartment, we knocked on the door. No one answered. We then went to the bedroom window where we knocked again and I called his name but Faith nor his wife answered and then they asked, you know, whether they should shoot where the bed would be situated because they asked me too where the bed would be situated and the discussion, as I recall it, went something like Faith had a new-born baby that was a few months old and his wife would probably also be in the room and the likelihood of us, you know, shooting and killing the wrong person was indeed great because they could not see who or what they'd be shooting at. So because of that, that mission was aborted.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Were you armed at the time?

MR MARTINS: No, I was not armed.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I refer you to your statement on page 3 and paragraph 11? When was the first time that the name of Benjamin Langa was mentioned to you by Qulu and Payi?

MR MARTINS: His name was mentioned soon after we had decided to abort that particular mission.

MR VAN DEN BERG: When you say soon after, was it that night, a few days later?

MR MARTINS: That same night, maybe five or so minutes after we had left Motlabani's house.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What did you know about Benjamin Langa, had you met him?

MR MARTINS: Yes, I'd known Benjamin for quite a while. He was a fellow activist in the Pietermaritzburg area and I considered him a comrade.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you relate to this Committee what you can recall about the discussion in respect of Benjamin Langa that night?

MR MARTINS: Sipho Qulu basically said that one of the missions was to eliminate or kill Benjamin Langa. I enquired why they had such an instruction and they told me that a certain Ralph who was - he was one of the commanders or their commander in Swaziland, had given them that instruction to kill Ben because Ben had basically sold out comrades.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you question the instruction?

MR MARTINS: No, I did not question the instruction, I could not question it - if you'll recall, you know, the early '80's, you know, anything that came from the ANC was hardly questioned, especially from operatives in the country in a word, you know, this was an impeccable, you know, source where it came from and MK guy who had just come back from the front so yes, I did not have a basis on which I could question it.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you relate to the Committee what happened that night?

MR MARTINS: Well, after we had had the discussion that I just relate now, we drove - they asked me whether I knew where Benj lived, right? And I said yes. They then asked me would I be prepared to show them where he lives and I said yes and then they further asked me whether I'd be prepared to go with them to Benj's place and knock, you know, such that Ben would open the door and I said yes. We then drove up to the Ben's apartment. We got there. Dennis the driver remained in the car and the three of us walked up to Benj's apartment. We got there, I knocked, Benj asked who it was. I answered that it was me. He knew who me was. He then said "come in". These two guerrillas walked in and ja, they shot and killed him and immediately after that we ran to the car and we drove off. They then dropped me off at the flat or the apartment where we used to live in, in Edendale and they proceeded.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Chairperson, the relaying of this incident has caused some distress to the members of the family. Perhaps it would be appropriate if we stood down for a short period. I'm in your hands and I'm in Mr Bizos hands.

MR BIZOS: ...(inaudible)

MR VAN DEN BERG: What happened then?

MR MARTINS: After that particular incident hardly a few days later, you know, I'd say not even a week passed by and I was I think from Pietermartizburg town on one particular afternoon jumped off the bus. As I was walking up to where we used to live the neighbour - the people in the neighbourhood, when they saw me, forewarned me and told me that a number of police vans had come to the apartment and they were apparently looking for you. They then warned me that I should actually run, you know, because it looked very serious. Immediately, you know, I put one and one together and I assumed the worst had happened, the worst being I thought that Qulu and Payi had been arrested because prior to that, one would be going to the ongoing trial of Stabiso Mashomo, Duma Dubele and my brother and you know, the Security Police were there and nothing was happening. But on this particular day, you know, suddenly they were interested in me, you know, so I assumed that had happened.

MR VAN DEN BERG: We return to the death of Benjamin Langa. Did you during the run up to it and subsequent to the incident have a sense that the police were aware of your activities?

MR MARTINS: No. No in the sense that you know, I'd suppose that the type of activities that the police would any way have been aware of is our youth Disomatione Youth League activities that were above board and that the police knew about. Other than that, until that particular afternoon, I don't think that the police were monitoring or following me or anything like that, no.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you attend Benjamin Langa's funeral?

MR MARTINS: Yes I did.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you participate at the funeral?

MR MARTINS: I just attended, I wasn't an active participant in the funeral.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can I refer you to paragraph 13 of your statement on page 3? Can we just go through that paragraph by paragraph? You say that subsequent to going into exile you discovered certain facts relating to the death of Benjamin Langa. First you say that Payi and Qulu were instructed by Ralph to carry out the operation?

MR MARTINS: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: When did you learn that?

MR MARTINS: I learnt ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Before coming to that? You realised the police were probably looking for you?

MR MARTINS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you then decide to go into exile?

MR MARTINS: No, what I decided to do was to run away from Pietermaritzburg. I ran to Durban where a fellow activist, shall I say ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Persuaded you?

MR MARTINS: Persuaded me to - no first this fellow activist hid me, you know, provided me with a place where I could be out of circulation or not be seen by the police and she then arranged with other activists and comrades in Umtata, the Transkei, that I be brought to the Transkei, Umtata, where after a while, having been, you know, not going out of this particular person's place of residence when they had arranged with the ANC operatives and structures in Lesotho that it was a good time for me to cross the border into Lesotho. Only then did I leave Umtata for Lesotho, Maseru.

ADV SANDI: Was she aware why you needed refuge? Was she aware of the reason why you were running away from the police?

MR MARTINS: Well, back then we could only speculate. You know, she asked me why are you running away from the police, you know, and I told her that, look, you know, I've been in contact with My China. My China was the nickname that we used to Sipho Qulu. So I told her that I was in contact with Sipho Qulu and that probably Sipho Qulu and his fellow MK guerrilla may have been arrested.

ADV SANDI: But was she aware that you were also involved in the murder of Ben Langa?

MR MARTINS: No she wasn't. I didn't disclose to her, you know, why I'd be ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Running away from the police?

MR MARTINS: Yes, why I'd be running away from the police other than telling her that it was probably my association with two MK guerrillas.

ADV SANDI: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Martins, we were dealing with paragraph 13.1. You say that Payi and Qulu were instructed by Ralph to carry out the operation. When did you first learn that?

MR MARTINS: On the night that they shot and killed Benjamin Langa.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And this is what they told you?

MR MARTINS: Yes, that's what they told me, they told me that a commander by the name of Ralph had given them the order or instructed them to kill Benjamin Langa.

MR VAN DEN BERG: 13.2 you deal with Ralph and the various names by which he was known in the ANC. Where did you learn that from?

MR MARTINS: From TRC documents that the TRC provided to me but notwithstanding that, in exile too, when I left the country I informed various security organs of the ANC and MK about this particular instruction, the course of events as they materialised on that fateful night and yes, you know, during the course of my stay in exile, yes I also learnt that Ralph's name - one of his names was Fear for instance.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And - well let's move to that. When you went into exile, as I understand the procedures that you were asked to write a biography?

MR MARTINS: That is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you relate in that biography the killing of Benjamin Langa? Well back then, you know, my memory - my recollection of the actual incident was very clear and very fresh. On quite a number of occasions I wrote a biography exactly detailing what happened, how it happened, etc etc. All in all I could say that I'd written a minimum of about three biographies for the ANC. One in Lesotho, the second in Tanzania, the third in Angola.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If we start with the biography which was written in Lesotho, what was the response to that biography?

MR MARTINS: Well, the person that received me at the border between South Africa and Lesotho, on our way back they'd already known - they'd expected my arrival in Lesotho, they knew who I was and this person immediately told me that they had been in contact with the Lusaka headquarters of the ANC and MK and they had been told in no uncertain terms that that was not a bona fide ANC mission. Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You say that you were told by a person. Can you remembers the person's name?

MR MARTINS: Yes his name is Mazwe.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Is that an MK name?

MR MARTINS: I don't know whether that was an MK name or not but Mazwe is still called Mazwe up to today. So, you know, a number of MK people still go by their MK names even up to today in spite of people knowing their real names. So I'm not sure.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Whilst you were in Lesotho was the death of Ben Langa discussed with anyone else in the ANC?

MR MARTINS: To my knowledge no, the person - the only person that discussed Benjamin Langa's death with me was Mazwe. Mazwe was a senior MK commander in the Lesotho/MK and ANC machinery and that is the person whom I discussed this particular incident with and he's the person that informed me what he ANC - the official ANC's position was from Lusaka, Zambia.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You subsequently prepared biographies in Tanzania. Can you recall whether the incident of or the death of Benjamin Langa was discussed with you there?

MR MARTINS: No, it was not discussed at all with me, it was ANC - it was standard ANC procedure, you know, that anyone who had just left the country on arriving in a particular country would be one of the first things that you'd be required to do would be to right a biography. I later learnt that the purpose behind writing a biography is just in case, you know, something could happen to you, people should know who you really are, where you're from, you know, that would I suppose facilitate your next-of-kin being informed of your untimely death or you know, should anything drastic happen. It was a standard procedure. The same happened even in Angola. When I got to Angola I wrote another biography. That biography was almost mean, I suppose, for those purposes and for the purposes of the ANC knowing who all the people were in the ANC camps.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And was the death of Ben Langa discussed with you when you were in Angola?

MR MARTINS: No, it was not. The only other time that Benjamin Langa's death was discussed with me was in Lusaka, Zambia and that was much later.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What were the circumstances there when it was discussed with you in Lusaka?

MR MARTINS: Comrade Jacob Zuma asked one of the ANC's security personnel to ask me to meet him. I then agreed and we drove to a place where I met Comrade Jacob Zuma who asked me very briefly, you know, what had happened on that fateful night. I related to him what had happened, as I've just done to this hearing, and then Comrade Jacob Zuma asked me to please meet comrade Pius Langa because comrade Pius - to hear what happened on that particular night. I then agreed, a meeting was arranged between comrade Pius and myself. We met in Woodlands township in Lusaka where comrade Pius asked me what happened. I told comrade Pius what had happened on that fateful night and the meeting ended soon after that, it was a very brief meeting. 

MR VAN DEN BERG: The other facts which you set out in paragraph 13, 13.3, 13.4 and 13.5. Where did you learn those facts from or those allegations from?

MR MARTINS: In two areas. In exile there was a time where Lusaka during knew that Tami Zulu and Ralph were being questioned by the ANC's security personnel. That's the first time that I heard, you know, that these people were being questioned about their activities, one and two, I got it also from TRC documents that were provided to me during the running up to this particular hearing and furthermore, you know, I also got in the ANC's submission, the second submission of the ANC to the TRC in the past.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg, isn't it clear from the documents and isn't it common cause that Fear alias Ralph alias Cyril Raymond was a Security Police agent, that he posed as a commander in Swaziland, that he instructed Qulu and Payi to come to South Africa and to kill Langa and that he was subsequently questioned by the ANC in Angola and that he died in Angola?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Those facts, Mr Chairperson, are set out in bits and pieces of the bundle which is before you. The only issue which arises and that is dependent on the attitude of Mr Terrence Tyrone, is that in the criminal record Payi and Qulu say that in fact it was Mr Tyrone who gave them the instruction but I know that he has been given notice, I know that he is present but I don't know what his attitude is.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I believe the - I don't want to - but as far as I believe he was present when they were conveyed into South Africa but he didn't give the instruction?

MR VAN DEN BERG: That is how I understand the position as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I do think that it is correct that these are common cause facts.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, if you want to proceed and put it further on record but if it's common cause I think you could state it to us and we will accept it because it's not contested at all.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Just to conclude on that aspect, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Martins, can I refer you to page 135 of the bundle and that's an extract of the further submissions of the ANC to the TRC in August 1996. Can I refer you to paragraph 6.2.7? Can you place that on record please? If you could just read it out?

MR MARTINS: Okay. The heading is "Deliberate Disinformation Leading to Mistaken Attacks"

&#9;"In a few cases, deliberate information resulted in attacks and assassination which dedicated cadres lost their lives. In one of the most painful examples of this nature, a State agent with an MK name of Fear ordered two cadres to execute Ben Langa on the grounds that Langa was an agent of the regime. These cadres, Clement Payi and Lucky Qulu carried out their orders. This action resulted in serious disruption of underground and mass democratic structures in the area and intense distress to the Langa family which was the obvious intention of Fear's handlers. Once the facts were known to the leadership of the ANC, President Tambo personally met with the family to explain and apologise for this action. Qulu and Payi were arrested and executed. A triple murder had been achieved by the apartheid regime without firing a single shot."

MR VAN DEN BERG: Then, Mr Martins, the bundle continues with extracts from the confession of Edward Lawrence Ralph. Did you participate in his arrest, in his detention, in his interrogation? 

MR MARTINS: No, I never participated in any of those acts that you've just described. I was never a security personnel member of MK or the ANC. I was just a guerrilla.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you. Mr Chairperson, I want to move onto the other incident and complete the evidence in chief in toto before we break for cross-examination, I think it would be more useful to deal with it in one go.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: We've established that you left South Africa during June 1984. How long did you remain in Lesotho? MR MARTINS: I remained in Lesotho for about not more than four months and then proceeded to Tanzania.

MR VAN DEN BERG: From there you received training at Kalkalama in Angola and then you received training in Yugoslavia, is that correct?

MR MARTINS: Yes that is correct.

MR VAN DEN BERG: When did you return to Africa?

MR MARTINS: I returned in 1988. It would probably be towards mid 1988.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You say that you were recruited by Special Operations, by Johannes Mnisi and Gordon Webster. Was that before or after you went to Yugoslavia?

MR MARTINS: That's after I had gone to Yugoslavia.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Paragraph 17 you say you were operationally deployed in South Africa. Can you give us a little more detail? More or less when was that?

MR MARTINS: That was soon - that was around April/May 1988. I was deployed by Special Operations to Natal. I came into the country with a particular MK guy who was in my unit. His name was Jekle, I don't know his real name. That was his MK name. We arrived in Johannesburg. We had agreed that he will proceed to Natal, Durban specifically, where he would set up a base for the two of us. He'd then contact me telephonically and I'd then follow him here to Natal.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What became of Jekle?

MR MARTINS: Jekle basically did not meet the deadline on which he was supposed to have informed me that things were ready and prepared in Durban and as a result of that in MK if people missed deadlines you assume the worst, you know? And accordingly I assumed the worst. I informed Botswana about my break in communication with Jekle and because I am originally from Johannesburg, Special Ops commanders in Botswana instructed me that I should operate in the PWV as it was known back then, Gauteng. And that's how I eventually ended up operating as an MK operative in Gauteng.

MR VAN DEN BERG: What did your operations entail?

MR MARTINS: My operations entailed blowing up electric pylons, blowing up big electric sub-stations, it involved attacking personnel of the South African Police, it involved sabotaging oil pipelines, it involved attacking refineries, it involved attacking petrol sub-stations, these big petrol sub-stations. Yes, all that was in the real main scope of special ops operations. Among other things, notwithstanding targets, one also was given the instruction to recruit and train operatives in the country in the use of firearms, explosives, etc etc.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now it was one of these units which was involved in the second incident for which you apply for amnesty. You say that you established two separate units, I'm looking at paragraph 18 of your statement, comprising Zachs and one person whose name you cannot recall. Do you, subsequent to having noted this statement, do you recall that person's name?

MR MARTINS: No I don't. I don't.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Mr Mtetwa is present, who was the victim of the second incident for which you apply for amnesty. Can you explain in some detail what happened?

MR MARTINS: Well, I had trained these two internal operatives in the use of firearms specifically, AK-47 rifles, Makarov pistols, the use of handgrenades and - yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: How long did this training take?

MR MARTINS: Well the training was staggered over a number of days. One would train them in the use of an AK for instance, explain to them the different parts of an AK, how the AK worked, you know show them what a bullet is, you know, the principle behind it and it would be repetitive until you could establish that the trainee has comprehended how this particular firearm or rifle actually works.

CHAIRPERSON: Do I understand you correctly that this unit consisted of yourself, Zachs and the other person, only the three of you?

MR MARTINS: Yes it did.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've trained him for several days and you've been involved in operations with him, am I correct?

MR MARTINS: No, I had not yet been involved with him in any operation. All I had done is to train him and at this stage there was no operation they could have been involved in.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but then you've been involved in this police van operation with him?

MR MARTINS: No, no, this is before the police van.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MARTINS: We first trained them and then after they were trained did the police van operation occur.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the only thing that's sort of worrying me is you've been with this man for several days on end, training him, you recruited him and you don't know his name at all?

MR MARTINS: It's quite a while back now. I remember one's name, his name was Zachs, the other one his name has gone, you know, I really don't remember that person's name.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The actual incident itself, what happened?

MR LAX: Just before you deal with that, Mr van den Berg?

&#9;How long did the training last?

MR MARTINS: Well it lasted I'd say anything between three to five days. Yes.

MR LAX: It's quite a short time to train people in weapons training and so on?

MR MARTINS: Yes it is.

MR LAX: They couldn't have been that experienced?

MR MARTINS: Excuse me?

MR LAX: They couldn't have been very experienced in that?

MR MARTINS: No it is what we called a crash course, you know, you train someone - clearly they couldn't have been as experienced as I was, you know. And that was the whole idea, you trained them in the type of firearms that could be comprehended and used much more easily. It's easy to train someone in the use of an AK. It can take literally a day.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The actual incident itself. Can you describe that to the Committee?

MR MARTINS: The actual incident happened at Meadowlands. Meadowlands borders - there's a railway line that separates Dube and Meadowlands. In 1988 police used to live at Meadowlands, they used to occupy a particular area of the Meadowlands Police Station - sorry, not the Meadowlands, the Meadowlands Hostel, you know? And my two recruits brought this to my attention and basically said that they note that the police used to live there and you know, we discussed what operation we could engage in because they wanted to get involved in fighting and furthering the struggle. So we went there to this particular hostel, we positioned ourselves in the bush on the edge of the railway line and we basically waited for a police van to come in. When we saw the police van come in we opened fire and shot at the front of the police van. After maybe a minute or two of shooting at the police van, the three of us retreated. We crossed, we went down the slope, crossed the railway line into Dube and we disappeared into Soweto.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did all three of you fire?

MR MARTINS: Yes, all three of us fired.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Are you in a position to say how many shots were fired?

MR MARTINS: Well I won't be able to give you an exact, precise number of how many shots were fired but each of us, you know, fired maybe three or four short bursts with an AK.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Is there anything else about the incident that you can recall?

MR MARTINS: No, not really apart from if you're more specific, but offhand no.

MR LAX: Were you aware of people injured in the incident?

MR MARTINS: Excuse me?

MR LAX: Did you know that people were injured at the time? Did you see people running away from the vehicle? What did you see? What was the result of your shooting, in other words?

MR MARTINS: The vehicle came to a halt and we could see that we were hitting the vehicle and yes, after we had shot we just retreated, we did not go to go and see, you know, whether - how bad the van was or the occupants of the van.

MR LAX: Were you able to say how many occupants were in the van at the time you opened fire?

MR MARTINS: No, it was dark.

MR LAX: What distance were you from the van?

MR MARTINS: Maybe a hundred metres or so. Plus minus a hundred metres.

MR LAX: Thank you. Sorry Mr van den Berg.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Did you know if anybody was injured?

MR MARTINS: No, not immediately then but we thought because the van had come to a halt, you know, we assumed that yes, someone would have been injured.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Were there subsequent press reports about the incident?

MR MARTINS: No, none at all. The newspapers did not cover it, the South African Police, nothing. There was absolutely nothing, we did check newspapers and stuff like that.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Now you carry on in your statement to say that sometime after the incident you were arrested and detained in terms of Section 29. Can you say how long you were in the country for before you arrest?

MR MARTINS: How long I was in the country?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes. 

MR MARTINS: After the actual incident or just when I had come into the country?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I'm talking the period of your infiltration on behalf of special ops until the time of your arrest?

MR MARTINS: It could have been six to nine months after I'd been infiltrated.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You then say you were rescued from police detention and that you returned to Botswana?

MR MARTINS: Yes, I'd got rescued from police detention by another MK operative and I returned to Botswana and subsequent to that I was re-infiltrated into the country again.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If you were rescued did you in fact escape?

MR MARTINS: Yes it amounts to that basically. I was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he's referring to it but he's not actually asking for instance amnesty for escape?

MR MARTINS: That is correct, Chairperson. I'll address on that aspect and also on the aspect of Faith Motlabani which is also not contained in his application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something? You've alluded to the fact that you may have been involved in a whole range of other activities, blowing up things. You implied that those were the objects of special operations? Were you actually involved in any other activities besides this incident at that stage?

MR MARTINS: No, I wasn't.

MR LAX: Okay and this other unit that you say you established? You don't refer to it at all in your statement.

MR MARTINS: Well, you know, it ended up only with me recruiting people but nothing came of that recruitment. I never trained them, you know, all I did was make my presence known to them and make my intentions known to them but I did nothing with them.

MR LAX: Yes and in terms of this particular operation you refer to, the 21st May 1988, in addition to what I presume was three AK-47's that you each would have had, what other weaponry did you have with you? Were you in possession of other weapons? Are you actually applying for amnesty for possession of those weapons?

MR MARTINS: Yes ...(intervention)

MR LAX: It's very vague, we need to know exactly what you're applying for amnesty for?

MR MARTINS: Yes, I had a Makarov pistol and handgrenades, two handgrenades.

MR LAX: What sort of handgrenades?

MR MARTINS: F1.

MR LAX: Thank you and approximately how much ammunition?

MR MARTINS: I'd say about two AK magazines per AK. Full, that would be 60 rounds for each.

MR LAX: So that's two magazines with 30 rounds each?

MR MARTINS: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: You've been asked about the activities of the two units which you established. Can you go into a little bit more detail in respect of the activities?

MR MARTINS: The unit that was based in Orlando West, Soweto, is the actual unit whom I carried out this operation with at the Meadowlands Hostel. Those are the people whom I had trained as I indicated earlier. The other unit was from Emdeni, in Soweto. This unit essentially comprised of two people whom I had made my intentions known to insofar as I wanted to train them. They'd agreed to it but we never got round to me actually training them in the use of firearms.

MR LAX: Had you done any acts of preparation for any other operations?

MR MARTINS: Yes.

MR LAX: Reconnaissance, that sort of thing?

MR MARTINS: Yes, what - on the actual night that I got arrested I was with the unit that carried out the Meadowlands operation and the two other guys from Emdeni. What we had gone to do, we drove from as it was known back then the Eastern Transvaal. Specifically there I'd got instructions from Botswana that I should locate and reconnoitre specific pylons of which the details I was given by my commander. I went with these people to the Eastern Transvaal and we look for this particular set of pylons that we were supposed have located. After the having driven around for quite a long time we could not locate those specific pylons that, you know, I'd been instructed to locate and reconnoitre around 10 - 11 o'clock at night we decided to drive back from that particular area and as we drove into Soweto a squad car that had been parked somewhere on the Soweto highway, saw the vehicle that we were in. They followed us and we were stopped and ordered to lie on the ground and that's how we got arrested.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you. Is there anything else that you want to add to your application, is there anything that you want to say particularly to the victims and the family of the people who were involved in these incidents?

MR MARTINS: Yes. I think I'd like to say that to the Langa family specifically that it is indeed regrettable that they lost a dear member of their family. As I indicated to comrade Pius in Lusaka, this was a situation where the South African Police had infiltrated the ANC's ranks, it used our own cadres to execute another cadre within the movement. All I can say is that - you know, I think I speak on behalf of the two comrades who were also executed that you know, we are sorry that that happened. We know saying sorry won't bring comrade Benj back but yes, you know, in exile and since then this has also really haunted me. For one, it's been really difficult having been a participant to a system set up, so to speak, you know? However many sorrys to the Langa family won't bring comrade Benj back but nonetheless I'm sorry for that particular incident. If we knew better, you know, if one knew that for instance Ralph was a security agent, you know if one had more information with regard to the situation we may not be sitting where we're sitting here today. So yet again, sorry.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Right. Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

MR LAX: Just one thing before you finish?

&#9;How long were you in custody after your arrest?

MR MARTINS: I was in custody for not longer than a month.

MR LAX: And then do you have anything to say to Mr Mtetwa?

MR MARTINS: Yes. To Mr Mtetwa I'd like to say that we're sorry for that particular attack. We were acting in the best interests of the ANC. We were fighting a war against apartheid South Africa. You as a policeman in the apartheid 

establishment were in our eyes a legitimate target. So I never knew you until I saw you this morning here, you know? It clearly could not have been personal, you know, we were fighting apartheid and Black or White you represented a facet of apartheid so that attack on your police van was in the broader context the fight against apartheid South Africa, you know? So it wasn't necessarily motivated by any self or selfish interest. Sorry nonetheless for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Bizos, would you like to proceed now?

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairperson, this is an unusual situation. I would like a short adjournment having heard the applicant to speak to the members of the family who are here, in order to formulate the collective attitude of the family. A short adjournment may have the effect of actually shortening rather than lengthening the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you let us know when you're ready?

MR BIZOS: It should take longer than about 10 minutes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn for 10 minutes or until we are called upon to resume.

MR BIZOS: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know whether tea would be ready. If so, we could take the tea adjournment now but if it's not ready please call on us and we'll come back.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

JULE GEORGE MARTINS: (s.u.o.)

MR BIZOS: ...(inaudible) to answer one or two questions of a formal nature.

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG: 

&#9;Thank you Mr Chairperson, there's just one aspect that I neglected to deal with. 

&#9;Mr Martins, can you just look at the TRC bundle page 1 thereof? That's your application form for amnesty, the one that you completed yourself. Would you have a look at paragraph 9(a)(ii) where the dates of these incidents are set out. Are those dates correct?

MR MARTINS: No, they're not.

MR VAN DEN BERG: If we deal with the first date, what should that date be?

MR MARTINS: That should be in 1984.

MR VAN DEN BERG: And the second date?

MR MARTINS: 1988.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Can you say why you got these dates incorrect?

MR MARTINS: I really can't remember because I mean it just couldn't be 1983 for both these incidences. I don't know what went through my head went I wrote 1983 for both of them.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Thank you Mr Chairperson, that was all.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DEN BERG

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree that the correct date for the first incident would be the 20th May 1984?

MR MARTINS: Yes I do.

WITNESS STANDS DOWN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Bizos.

MR BIZOS ADDRESSES: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, the Langa family has decided, has instructed me not to put any questions to the witness nor to make any submissions in relation to his application for amnesty. We will leave that with the Committee's statutory and constitutional duties as it pleases. We're here for an ancillary purpose and we would urge that the Committee should hear us on that ancillary ...(indistinct) and that is that we are anxious that we should remove the stigma that the circumstances which were disclosed at the criminal trial and elsewhere in relation to the good name of Ben Langa. &#9;I have a statement from President Mbeki, Mr Chairperson, which confirms in part the - he could only speak about matters that he had personal knowledge that confirms the correctness of the statement contained on page 135 of the bundle and that is paragraph 6.2.7 which Mr van den Berg read into the record. I'd like to hand Mr Mbeki's statement in, Chairperson, we have copies for everyone. Thank you. We have a number of copies, I'll hand them out Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, it's dated yesterday and it reads:

&#9;&#9;&#9;"During the 1980's I was a member of the National Executive Committee of the African National Congress in exile. I'm now the President of the organisation. I delivered the ANC's submission to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I confirm the correctness of paragraph 6.2.7 which reads:

&#9;&#9;'Deliberate disinformation leading to mistaken attacks. In few cases deliberate disinformation resulted in attacks and assassination in which dedicated cadres lost their lives. In one of the most painful examples of this nature, a State agent with the MK name of "Fear" ordered two cadres to execute Ben Langa on the grounds that Langa was an agent of the regime. These cadres, Clement Payi, Lucky Qulu, carried out their orders. This action resulted in serious disruption of underground and mass democratic structures in the area and intense distress to the Langa family which was the obvious intention of Fear's handlers. Once the facts were known to the leadership of the ANC, President Tambo personally met with the family to explain and apologise for this action. Qulu and Payi were arrested and executed. A triple murder had been achieved by the apartheid regime without firing a single shot themselves.'

&#9;&#9;&#9;"I was party to the decision that our then President, Oliver Tambo met members of the Langa family to explain the unfortunate circumstances that led to Ben Langa's death and apologised for the tragic loss of a young life."

&#9;I also wish to make a statement from the bar which I have personal knowledge from Mr Jacob Zuma.

CHAIRPERSON: Could we mark this as Exhibit C, the statement by President Mbeki?

MR BIZOS: Thank you. That would be Exhibit C.

&#9;Now Mr Chairperson, we intended to have a statement from the Deputy Leader of the African National Congress, Mr Jacob Zuma. I spoke to him both face to face and on the telephone. He was partly responsible for the investigation that led to the statement that is made in the submissions by the ANC. We thought that we had time to prepare a statement and get him to sign. Unfortunately, Mr Chairperson, he went off to Geneva and we did not have an opportunity of getting a statement. However, Mr Chairperson, you have heard from the applicant himself of what one of the senior commanders of MK said as soon as he arrived in Lesotho which really is corroborative of this. 

&#9;I would like to call Mr Mandla Langa, a brother, because we do believe that it is important for one of the members of the family to speak about the deceased and place information before you which makes so highly unlikely that he would ever have become an informer and I would ask of your leave for Mr Mandla Langa to take the oath and give evidence before you. It will not be lengthy, a statement has been prepared but there are certain preliminary questions that I want to ask him beforehand, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Kindly proceed.

MANDLA LANGA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR BIZOS: Mr Langa, what is your present occupation?

MR LANGA: At present I'm the Chairperson of the Independent Broadcasting Authority, the IBA.

MR BIZOS: Could you tell us about your family? First of all let's start with your father and mother?

MR LANGA: Well my father was a Minister of Religion and my mother was his helpmate, she was a housewife but she was also intensely involved in the church. 

MR BIZOS: How many brothers and sisters were you?

MR LANGA: We were all in all about seven in the family. That is five brothers and two sisters. One brother passed away, Ben, in 1984 and a sister passed away also subsequently in the early '90's, the youngest in the family.

MR BIZOS: What was your father's and mother's attitude to the education of their children?

MR LANGA: I think from very early on I was as somebody growing up in the family that education played a very, very important aspect in the lives of the members of the family but also insofar as the kind of direction that we received from our parents. They placed very, very great ...(indistinct) in our being educated even when it was very difficult. The bottom line in our family was that we had to be educated.

MR BIZOS: Was that easy or did sacrifices have to be made by your family for all of you to be educated?

MR LANGA: I think it was very hard, it was very hard and it was apparent but they even at times when we were not rich, we were in fact very poor family in given times but they did make sure that whatever happened they would sacrifice, they would make sure that some money, some resources were in place for us to continue our schooling.

MR BIZOS: What was your father had or your mother, involved in the political life of the country?

MR LANGA: I would not think that they were card carrying members of any particular organisation but we grew up at a time when so many things were happening in the country and we did get encouragement and sometimes chastisement and sometimes direction from our parents. I remember very, very vaguely at the time of the 1960's when, you know, the Sharpeville Massacre happened. There were books in the house that for instance my mother would warn, especially Ben, who seemed to have quite a penchant for having access to all this literature, not to throw them away but to find a secure hiding place for them, which for somebody who was very quiet as my mother was, was surprising; that revelation that she was acutely aware of what was going on inside the country. My father did give us tacit encouragement but all that was always flavoured with words of warning because I certain she was aware of what the repercussions could be for hard core or very overt political activity.

MR BIZOS: What was - your family as a whole, what was it's attitude towards the African National Congress and other movements which were involved in the liberation struggle?

MR LANGA: From very early on the family did support the African National Congress. I remember at a time when we started, in fact I think it was Ben who gave us access to these - you know to listen to outside broadcasts. This was where as a family or mainly Ben and us, Bheki, who would listen to some of these broadcasts. So we were, I think, very, very, very much in support of the ANC. We never talked about it which was and the family as a whole were around. It was something that all our support, really.

MR BIZOS: The ANC was a number of an organisation in the '60's, was it '70's? Did Ben become active in SASO?

MR LANGA: Yes, in the early '70's Ben and I were students at the University of Fort Hare where Ben was the SASO local Cultural Commission Officer but he had already done his stint with SASO soon after it's formation and after that he was its publication officer and was responsible majorally for it's cultural and publications policies to disseminate the policies of the Black Consciousness Movement as much as possible. So that, of course, is what exposed him to the depredations of the Security Police at the time. Yes, so that is the work he did in SASO and was a hugely highly regarded member of - executive member of SASO.

MR BIZOS: Did he have literary or musical talents?

MR LANGA: Yes, mainly if I can indulge, I would say that my becoming a writer owes - I owe Ben quite a lot when it comes to that because not only myself but I see there are other people here in the gallery who had access to his books and to his music but he had a particular way of making you know and want to read specific writers. So he did have - he also wrote himself, he wrote poetry and he wrote short stories which he hoped to try and publish.

MR BIZOS: Were his poems published?

MR LANGA: One of his poems was published which I saw when I was already out in exile, in fact which was used for a Channel 4 broadcast called "Two Dogs and Freedom" which was a poem titled to my brothers, Mandla and Bheki, which was away of, I think, communicating with us even in exile. It was published in a collection of South African writing edited by -put together by Jane Coetzee and someone else called "Writing South Africa", I think it's a Faber and Faber book.

MR BIZOS: You just mentioned Channel 4, Channel 4 is what?

MR LANGA: Channel 4 is a broadcaster in United Kingdom. In London. So there was a show called "Two Dogs and Freedom" which involved the cream of British and South African literary and theatre and film personalities which collaborated to bring some focus in 1988 on what was going on in South Africa via the text that had been explored and written and purveyed inside South Africa.

MR BIZOS: Do you know whether he moved on to the ANC from the Black Consciousness Movement?

MR LANGA: After 19 - I think it was '81 or '82. '81, when there was the massacre in Maseru where 42 ANC activists and Lesotho Nationals were killed by the SADF. Ben went there to visit and was there at the funeral where he met with Phyllis Naidoo. Much, much later when I met Phyllis Naidoo she said to me that Ben is one of us and yes, so I did think then and still do now that he was participating in ANC activities.

MR BIZOS: Was that the funeral which Mr Oliver Tambo, the then President of the SRC, overflew South Africa in a small plane to be in Lesotho?

MR LANGA: Yes it was presided over by the then ANC President, Oliver Tambo.

MR BIZOS: And you? When did you become involved in the ANC? Well, I left South Africa in 1976 and already when I was in Botswana and in Lesotho I was already a member of the ANC and then I was in - we worked in Lusaka, in Zambia in the Department of Information and Publicity. I went to do military training in Angola and I worked in the Department of Arts and Culture and then much, much later I was in the United Kingdom as the Deputy Chief Representative of the ANC and also it's cultural organisation.

MR BIZOS: You didn't come back before 1990?

MR LANGA: No, I couldn't come back before 1990. In fact I remember at that time there were two things that happened. One, my mother's funeral and much, much later Ben's funeral. Those were the things I certainly felt if there had been a possibility I would have come back but I couldn't.

MR BIZOS: You couldn't. You were really the information Arts and Culture desk of the ANC?

MR LANGA: Mainly yes.

MR BIZOS: Yes. Now was the family reputation an ANC orientated reputation?

MR LANGA: Yes I would say it was quite a reputation that had a lot to do with the ANC.

MR BIZOS: The Security Police would have known about you?

MR LANGA: Certainly yes, they would yes.

MR BIZOS: They listened to you on Radio Freedom, I suppose?

MR LANGA: They must have, yes.

MR BIZOS: Do you know whether they came to your home regularly in order to search?

MR LANGA: Well from as early as I can remember, the Security Police was always searching in our home. From when I was very, very small I think it must have been in Mayville and in Chesterville and in KwaMashu, there was always - we always had Security Police presence and they searched, they took the books, they used to check the frequency on the radio to what we had been listening to. Yes, it was quite their stamping ground. And my other Bheki, who had also been picked up quite repeatedly. So it was - there was that to the point that my mother had developed a reflex in relation to the Security Police. 

MR BIZOS: Your brother Pius, was busy defending people in political trials?

MR LANGA: Yes and that also was an issue that was quite - that put our family on the spot or in the eye of the security storm, so to say.

MR BIZOS: Now I know that you were not here for Ben's funeral but from the time of his death and when it became known that two ANC cadres were responsible for his death and it was alleged that it was because he was said to be an informer, did the community believe it? What was the attitude to you, what was the attitude to the members of your family, from the community at large, from the ANC and from everyone else?

MR LANGA: There was at the beginning quite a lot of confusion. I have a memory of the time when this was announced and when this came out that it was because Ben had been labelled an informer and I remember that there was a sense of disbelief among my - I was in Lusaka at the time - among the comrades, my colleagues were there, you know, the broader community in exile, all the way since from 1984 through today I have not received any feedback from my comrades which could have made me know or understand or feel that they felt that Ben had been an informer. 

&#9;On Sunday, this past Sunday, on Friday, Saturday, I was with Wallace Seroti who is one of South Africa's premier poets and who is also a writer and we were talking about this and he was saying that there is something that he also felt needed to be put on the table and dealt with quite definitively because it's something that he knows and that he felt and that he, you know, instinctively that a mistake had been made. So I have yet to find somebody who will say to me that they really did believe that Ben had been this or that.

MR BIZOS: You're a writer, you've published a considerable amount of work. 

MR LANGA: Yes I am.

MR BIZOS: With the permission of the Committee I would like you to please read something that you've written?

MR LANGA: Yes.

MR BIZOS: Could we hand it in as exhibit?

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit D.

MR BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

MR LANGA: The only thing that is an error is the 24, it's supposed to be 3 August 1944. These are ......(intervention)

MR BIZOS: Hold on, let it be distributed? What exhibit is it?

CHAIRPERSON: Exhibit D and it should be - what should the date be?

MR LANGA: It should be 3rd August 1944.

&#9;&#9;"Ben's dreams were huge and filled the sky. In a country that discouraged visions and anchorage to ...(indistinct), his dreams but him at odds with his surroundings, caused him daily and in the snarling loneliness of the midnight hour, to strive mightily to push back the ceiling which threatened ...(indistinct) his imagination. A hard working student, he sought no less beyond the stultifying confines of a system of education whose main objective was geared towards manufacturing a nation of hewers of wood and drawers of water. He read as much as he could about everything, preparing himself without consciously knowing that for a life served to rest his own people from the scourge of ignorance of ...(indistinct) and poverty.

&#9;&#9;We can only imagine the effect of the draconian apartheid laws on him because he had eyes, he must have witnessed the waste of human resources on the streets in the unemployment queues, people on the breadline, thousands on the treadmill. He must have been touched by the diminishing fortunes of his own family, the succession of relocations from Pietersburg, Stanger, Mayville and Chesterville to KwaMashu. You know these transitions where his father was a Minister of Religion and his mother a housewife, it could not have escaped him that his own family was struggling. He was as aware as was any Black person growing up in the turbulent 60's that the apartheid state was evil and that it was killing innocent unarmed people. All around him, after the massacre of Sharpeville, his close friends were disappearing into exile and that the country was in trouble. 

&#9;&#9;His own troubles deepened when he became an executive member of the South African Students Organisation where he was its publications officer. This is why he read and purveyed the history of the liberation movement. He provided access to writings by luminaries such as Frans Fennon whose "The Wretched of the Earth" was any aspiring revolutionary's bible. There was A M Cesar, whose memorable poem, "Return to my Native Land" was performed on days of celebration and affirmation. There were "Malcolm X, Angela Davies, Julius Nyerere and Goman Gruma, there were the underground tracks from the ANC. He tuned into the Radio Freedom frequencies where the ANC broadcast from Addis Ababa or Moscow. He opened the path for many of us to appreciate and develop another triad for reading and an unquenchable thirst, curiosity about what was happening in other parts of Africa, Asia and Latin America. He worked tirelessly with his compatriots, spending days, even weeks on end, spreading the policies of the Black Consciousness Movement. In those rare moments when he was with his family he would indulge in his love for music and literature. One remembers the artist, there was ...(indistinct) about Black people hanging, lynched in the Deep South. Her version of "To love Somebody" and "Cinnamon, where have you run to?" and "To be young, gifted and Black" which became an informal anthem of youth. One remembers Donnie Hathaway duetting with Roberta Flack, "Love Songs in a Loveless Country". Miles Davies - there was John Coltrain whom James Baldwin, Ben's further right writer, must have had in mind when he wrote "Tell me how long the train's been gone?". There was Miriam Makeba, the "Caged Songbird" our country couldn't bear to hear. 

&#9;&#9;He shared his music, his books and even his material possessions with the more disadvantaged around him. He owned all this, he supplemented his love for music and literature through setting up music and literary formations, inspiring young people, extending his dream through their creativity. He and SASO organised concerts featuring people like Abdulla Ebrahim where Steve Biko's dictum, "Black man, you are on your own" was emphasised such that it became a reflex.

&#9;&#9;One remembers the time he came back from his first lengthy detention. This must have been around 1974 after the murder of Mgapots Abraham Diro who was blasted by a parcel bomb in Botswana. The change in him was not physical. He was still introspective, gazing out at the world which could spawn such cruelty. He wrote his poems and stored his ...(indistinct) but it was clear that something profound had happened to him. This was accentuated later when he was picked up routinely and locked up for months. He would come back to discover that a colleague, like Mapethla Mohapi, had been killed in detention.

&#9;&#9;In the 1980's, Ben frequented the Alan Taylor residence in Durban which was the hub of student activism. This was at the height of State repression against any formation that was even remotely identified as supporting the African National Congress. Because he was quiet, unassuming but assertive, Ben gave leadership to the confusion that sometimes reigning supreme among the student body. One of the more harrowing scenes he saw was in Maseru, it must have been in 1981 when he attended a funeral of 42 ANC cadres and Lesotho Nationals massacred by the South African Security apparatus. This is where he met the exiled ANC and more especially his lifelong friend Aunt Phyllis Naidoo. 

&#9;&#9;He left Durban for Pietermaritzburg where he was instrumental in laying a solid foundation for the formation of progressive students and community activity as embodied in the ...(indistinct) poets and the Disomatione Group in Edendale. It was in Pietermaritzburg that he was killed.

&#9;&#9;One cannot imagine what went on in his mind the day of that fateful knock when he opened the door on hearing what he thought was a friendly familiar voice. Since he was a trusting man who supported people like they were his own family, who had many, many brothers and sisters out there on the mean streets of our time, the friendly voice must have sounded like a call that leads one ashore during a storm. When the light went out it stilled all that poetry, all that music and all that love that had beaten in his heart. It was a love that had extended to nameless numberless multitudes that had inspired him and fired his vision. 

&#9;&#9;It is difficult to remember him and not recall a poem he was wont to quote by African American poet Margaret Walker. It's called "For My People":

&#9;&#9;'For my people everywhere singing their slave songs repeatedly, there are dirges and there are ditties and there are blues and jubilees, praying their prayers nightly to an unknown God, bending their knees humbly, to an unseen power. For the cramped ...(indistinct) we went to school to learn, to know the reason why and the answers to and the people who and places were and the days when in memory of the beta hours when we discovered we were Black and poor and small and different and nobody cared and nobody wondered and nobody understood. For the boys and girls who grew up in spite of all these things, to become, to be men and women, to laugh and dance and sing and play and drink their wine and religion and success, to marry their playmates and bear children and then die of consumption and anaemia and lynching, for my people blundering and groping and floundering the dark of churches and schools and clubs and societies of associations and councils and committees and conventions, distressed and disturbed and deceived and devoured by money hungry, glory craving leeches, preyed on by facile force of State and further novelty by false prophet and holy believer. For my people standing staring, trying to fashion a better way from confusion from hypocrisy and misunderstanding, trying to fashion a world that will hold all the people, all the faces, all the Adams and Eves and their countless generations. Let a new worth rise, let another world be born, let a bloody peace be written in the sky, let a second generation full of courage issue forth, let a people love and freedom come to growth, let a beautiful of healing and the strength of final cleansing be deposing in our spirits and our blood. Let the martial songs be written, let the dirges disappear, let a race of men now arise and take control.'

&#9;That is the end of the poem.

&#9;&#9;"To have known Ben as a privilege, he was before his time and he took bold strides that finally put him in the eye of the enemy's storm. Those who slew him did so believing what they were led to believe. One can only hope and pray that this process will release him from the torment of stigmas and labels and names wrought in hate for he embodied an unbearable love for his people."

MR BIZOS: Thank you Mr Langa. Thank you Mr Chairperson. That is all Mr Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BIZOS

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;Having heard the testimony of the applicant, Mr Martins, my instructions from Mr Mtetwa are not to oppose the application. I accordingly have no questions for him. Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any evidence to lead?

MS PATEL: No, Honourable Chairperson, my client has chosen not to testify. On another matter, the family members of both Lucky Qulu and Clement Payi are present. Mr Payi's mother is here and Mr Qulu's brother is here. They have both indicated that they wish to say something to the members of the Langa family who are present here, with your permission. If they may be allowed to come forward?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you call them? Could we make arrangements to get them seated somewhere?

MS PATEL: Right, thank you.&#9;&#9;

CHAIRPERSON: Could you Mr ...(inaudible) for an instant - I see you've got a microphone before you, if somebody could be seated in your place? I'll appreciate it. Could you perhaps just move behind your client?

MR BIZOS: There's a chair here.

MR LAX: Could the interpreters just talk to the witness for a moment so that she can hear you?

ADV SANDI: Mrs Payi, would you like to give your evidence in English or Zulu?

MRS PAYI: In Zulu.

EUGENIA TANDIWE PAYI: (sworn states)&#9;

EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. &#9;Mrs Payi, you can go ahead and say whatever it is that you wish to say to the family members.

MRS PAYI: I am grateful to meet with the Langa family although I knew Pius prior to this because we are from the same church. To the Langa family I am grateful for the opportunity to meet them and know them.

&#9; As far as I'm concerned, as Lucky's parent, I wish to apologise. I lost my son in 1984. I was at church praying. I do not know whether they knew anything about this on that day. When I returned from church he had already disappeared. I enquired from the neighbours where he was and they said they had no idea. All I knew was that he was at home when I went to church and on my return he had already disappeared. I went looking for him all over. I do not know what had happened to him. Up until when this matter came before the Truth Commission, this affected me badly emotionally. 

&#9;He had disappeared from 1979 to 1980. It was only in 1984 when I learnt that he had been arrested in Pietermaritzburg. I was informed that he had been caught by the Security Police. I was even forced to leave work because at that time I was involved in his trial. Prior to that I did not know what had happened to him, how he had gone, with whom he had left. It was only on my arrival at Pietermartizburg when we were informed to go see them and on that day I was informed that I was not supposed to ask him anything nor say anything to him but only inform him about what was happening at home. Because I was not familiar with court proceedings I did not know what to do and it was mentioned in court that he was a member of the African National Congress. I have enquired ever since that time because I do not know what to say. It bothered me, it troubled me when I saw the Langa family in church and I requested to meet them, to talk to them because I will see Mr Langa at church and I did not know what had happened. When we went to trial I heard what had happened and I did not know, I did not understand what had happened. I attended the trial in 1984 and also went to Pretoria but I had no right to speak to him and I could not question him on what had happened because I did not know anything when he left. I was told by the police officers that I should not question him about why he had been imprisoned and what had gone on. It was at the trial when everything was explained and that is where it ended. I did not even know what Mr Langa, the deceased at done or what they had done. Even when they were executed we did not even see them, we just saw their coffins and we were informed to return the following day to view their coffins. So we did not go to view coffins, not even see the bodies inside. It was difficult for us to go view coffins when we did not even know where the children had gone to, why they had left. That was the last I saw of my child. 

&#9;Because of the expenses that I had incurred during the trial, I had to seek employment at a later date. I just heard eventually that they had been executed and we were puzzled as to how they could be executed without us seeing them and we did not know why, what was the reason they had to go through that and why our family had to go through that trauma from 1984 to 1987 because I was trying whatever I could to save him because he still had small children. 

&#9;I was traumatised because I was fired also from my employment. I was so harassed that I ended up being homeless. I even had to ask my daughter-in-law and other members of the community for a place to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Tell her she needs not hurry - if she wants us to, shall we adjourn for a few minutes?

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

EUGENIA TANDIWE PAYI: (s.u.o.)

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, Mrs Payi is too distressed to continue. I request that you excuse her from further testimony and Mr Qulu is present. He wishes to say something to the family as well.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you and you'll express our gratitude for the courage she had to come forward and give evidence here.

ADV SANDI: Mr Qulu, are you going to speak English or Zulu?

MR QULU: Zulu.

THEMBA QULU: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. &#9;Mr Qulu, it's correct that you are the brother of Lucky Qulu?

MR QULU: Sipho Qulu.

MS PATEL: Yes, you've indicated that you wish to say something to the family members of Mr Langa? You can proceed.

MR QULU: Thank you very much. I'm happy just to get this chance to speak to the family, Ben Langa's family.

&#9;You know, it's very difficult to actually start. I'm not sure where to start but what I can say is that when this thing happened, when Ben Langa, when I heard that Ben Langa was dead I was very much shocked and I mean it came also as a shock when I discovered that when my brother was involved in the killing of Ben. I knew Ben personally, we were students at the University of Natal and he was my friend actually and I knew that they were very, very close with my brother. I also know that he is one person who actually recruited my brother to join the MK. So it was very, very, very difficult, it was confusing. I mean it was very difficult for the family or even for myself to actually understand what actually happened.

&#9;But what I can say, Ben Langa was an ANC soldier as well as my brother and Lucky, they were all ANC soldiers. On behalf of my family, you know, we'd just like to say on behalf of my brother, because he is no longer here, on behalf of my family we feel sad and we are sorry that this thing happened.

&#9;I remember when my brother was just about to be executed. I saw an article, I think it was City Press where Pius Langa was just commenting about the whole issue and that made me feel bold to go and meet Pius just to ask him if he can help us to support our petition so that my brother and Lucky don't hang, you see?

&#9;So he spoke very well, he accepted me as a brother. He even said to me Themba, it's just like children of the same family. I mean, so he put it like that to me, he said when I understand it's just like children of the same family and then this thing happened. So on behalf of my family, you know, I know how difficult it was for my brother when he had to do what he did because I know they were actually very close with Langa, they were working together and they were also involved in activities of Disomatione. So I just wish that maybe if possible we could another session with the family while my mother is here. My mother could not come because of poor health, but my brother's daughter is here, Simsindi, she is sitting over there at the back and my brother and my brother's wife is also there. So even if we didn't get this quite early, just to know that this thing is going to happen, but we feel sorry, we've got nothing at all against the Langa family and what made me happy is that Pius, the person I used to meet during those days, he never - he was not bitter. I was very scared, I even told him that "Pius, I'm coming to talk to you but I'm not sure how you're going to take it". He said "No, Themba, cool down, just sit down." And then he even said to me "Themba, you know people, when such things happen, people are always scared to come up and just presume". So then we spoke nicely.

&#9;So on behalf of my brother and behalf of my family, I really for my brother ...(indistinct), you see? I know that Ben Langa was an ANC soldier, my brother was an ANC soldier, Lucky Payi was an ANC soldier. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Did your brother have any children?

MR QULU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you kindly give their names to the evidence leader together with their addresses?

MR QULU: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: So that she could forward it to us? Thank you. And the same would apply to the other deceased.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, that will then be all from my side.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody any questions? Thank you Mr Qulu, thank you for coming forward and thank you for what you've said in order to expedite reconciliation.

MR QULU: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any further evidence or any further statements perhaps?

MR QULU: So sorry, can I just ask something? Maybe it's nothing to do with this.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR QULU: You know, when my brother was executed in Pretoria, everything was done privately and we were told that we were excluded in everything, the funeral and otherwise and then we were only given the grave numbers I think after two, three, four months. Now our problem was that we wanted to exhume their bodies so that they're buried in Natal. So we've been finding problems in doing that. When we applied in 1986, I mean that was turned down and now we've also applied to the TRC and I was told that there is no funding for doing that kind of a thing. I'm not sure whether we'll get a person who will assist us in connection with that?

MR LAX: Mr Qulu, there were some funds available and I'm talking about two years ago, when before I was on the Amnesty Committee, to assist in situations like this. I'm not sure what the current position is, I know that our budget has been cut drastically but if you give Ms Patel all your details I will make the necessary enquiries and try and find out for you what can be done through our auspices, if at all. I can't promise anything but we will make the necessary enquiries and I will give you the assurance that I will get back to you on it.

MR QULU: Okay, thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Any argument Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG: I do have some aspects to address you on but I'm not sure whether you've completed any questions you might have for the applicant. We've interposed a number of people not strictly in sequence but I don't think that that's neither here nor there. Mr Martins is still here, he is still available for questions which the Panel may still have for him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, could Mr Martins come forward?

RECALL OF JULE GEORGE MARTINS

JULE GEORGE MARTINS: (s.u.o.) 

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Martins, you're still under oath. Any questions by representatives? Any questions by members of the Panel? Advocate Sigodi?

ADV SANDI: Yes, Mr Martins, there's just one aspect I want to clarify with you? When Mr Qulu and Mr Payi told you that they had received instructions to eliminate Ben Langa, did you also agree with the idea that he was an informer or did you believe them or did you align yourself with that idea?

MR MARTINS: &#9;When they informed me that Benj was an informer I basically took them, you know, on their word. I did not question or challenge the notion that they were wrong or right. All I did was to ask for clarity with regard to how could this be? That's when they informed me that they got this instruction from a senior MK commander in Swaziland and that this person's name was Ralph. In other words if you had a sense of the early mid '80s, when someone from exile, especially someone that's a trained guerrilla of the ANC came to you and told you that this is what the ANC says, you are in credible position or in no position at all to argue against that kind of assertion or instruction.

ADV SANDI: Yes but did you also have the intention to have him eliminated? You went there, what was your role? Did you go there merely to assist them or to show them where he was or did you go there with the intention to have him eliminated?

MR MARTINS: Well, prior to going there as I testified earlier, we had actually discussed the matter and we had agreed, the three of us, that that is what was going to be done. So in other words, yes, I was mindful and I knew what their intentions were and I co-operated with, as it so turned out, our intentions ultimately.

ADV SANDI: Okay and what weapons did you have?

MR MARTINS: I personally had no weapon, they were the only ones who had weapons on them.

ADV SANDI: And what weapons did they have?

MR MARTINS: They had pistols. I saw two pistols, one on each of them.

ADV SANDI: Do you know where they got the pistols from?

MR MARTINS: Well, I could only imagine that they got them from the ANC, uMkhonto weSizwe.

ADV SANDI: And who fired the first shot?

MR MARTINS: I won't be able to tell you because all I did was to knock. When Ben said come in I stepped back and the two of them went into his apartment and shot so I wouldn't be able to conclusively and reliably tell you that who shot, who fired the first shot.

ADV SANDI: Okay. Thank you Chairperson.

MR LAX: Just one question, Chairperson.

&#9;Did I understand you correctly that the person you refer to as Dennis was waiting in the vehicle for you?

MR MARTINS: Yes that is correct.

MR LAX: And that he drove you away from the scene?

MR MARTINS: Yes.

MR LAX: Is that the same Dennis whose name appears in your statement?

MR MARTINS: Yes, that is the same Dennis.

MR LAX: Any idea what has happened to him since then?

MR MARTINS: I've since gathered from my interaction with the TRC that Dennis subsequent to that particular incident when Payi and Qulu were arrested turned State witness. Subsequent to that I've never since then ever had contact with Dennis at all.

MR LAX: Was Dennis party to your discussion, did he know what you were going there to do? Was he aware that you were going to go and murder Benjamin Langa?

MR MARTINS: Yes he was aware. Our discussions took place in his presence in, you know, wherever the three of us were. Yes he was aware, he knew what was going to happen.

MR LAX: No, thank you. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr van den Berg, any questions flowing from questions by the Panel?

MR VAN DEN BERG: No Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: No re-examination?

MR VAN DEN BERG: No re-examination.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN DEN BERG

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Would this conclude the evidence?

MR VAN DEN BERG: We don't intend to lead any other evidence, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else wanting to lead any evidence? Would you like to address us Mr van den Berg?

MR VAN DEN BERG IN ARGUMENT: Very briefly Mr Chairperson. Chairperson, I respectfully submit that the provisions of Section 19 - sorry, that's Section 18 and 19 have been complied with, that there is a duly completed application form before you. There is an explanation in respect of the failure to depose to that original application form for a Commissioner of Oaths and that you accept the explanation given to you by the applicant in that regard.

&#9;Mr Chairperson, in respect of Section 20 of the Act I respectfully submit that in respect of the first incident, that is the death of Benjamin Langa, that at the time that the act was committed, the applicant fulfilled the requirements of section 20(ii)(a) in that he was a supporter of a publicly known political organisation. Alternately, that he fulfils the requirements of Section 20(ii)(f), a person who on reasonable grounds believed that he was acting. Alternately (g), a person who associated himself with any of the acts.

&#9;Insofar as the second incident is concerned, that is the attack on the van, the SAP in Soweto in 1988, I submit that the provisions of Section 20(ii)(a) have been fulfilled. That he was a member of a publicly known political organisation.

&#9;In respect of both of the incidents, the submission is that both were carried out bona fide in the furtherance of the political struggle. I must be born in mind that at the time of the death of Benjamin Langa, the applicant had not received training, that the applicant acted in concert with two ANC cadres, people that were certainly one that he knew personally and to whom he respected and whom he no basis on which to doubt.

CHAIRPERSON: But do you accept what's put forward in the bundle on page 139 under C. "Report on Cyril Raymonds" - sorry ...(intervention)

MR VAN DEN BERG: It's on page 136 following the extracts of the confession of Eddie Lawrence.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Eddie Lawrence.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes Mr Chairperson, we don't - we accept that that is the version as put up by the African National Congress. We've no reason to disbelieve it. Insofar as it may impact on this application, the applicant was not aware of these facts at the time of the incident and so he was bona fide at the time of the incident. You've heard that he accepts now with the true facts, things would obviously have been somewhat different.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR VAN DEN BERG: The amnesty application only deals with two incidents, that of the death of Ben Langa and the attack on the police van. On a reading of the application, it also deals with the question of Faith Motlabani and the conspiracy to murder him. The applicant was not aware that those actions constituted a crime. My submission is that insofar as a complete application is before you in respect of those facts, that were you to consider his application favourably, that any amnesty granted to him would include the aspects relating to the conspiracy to murder Faith Motlabani. 

CHAIRPERSON: There's no mention at all, not even the name of Faith in his application. Can we at this stage, we've got no powers in the Act to condone or could we add in a quite separate incident not related to the incidents mentioned? I could understand you could ask for amnesty for instance for the illegal possession of weapons because that was an integral part of the offence he is asking amnesty for but this is quite a different offence?

MR VAN DEN BERG: Yes Mr Chairperson, we're constrained by the corners of the amnesty application. It's certainly not as if there is a rider as we had with Mr Ismail yesterday or any of those kinds of things which allow us that kind of leeway and I accept that we are bound by the four walls of the particular application. It's clear though from the evidence that he has given in support of and to supplement his application this morning, that certainly there is this additional potential offence. At a really practical level it's unlikely that he would ever be charged with the offence, that the only person who could possibly testify against him is Dennis Nzamo Gadebe, if he is still around or not. He was certainly, as I read the transcript of the criminal record, he received an indemnity in terms of Section 204 of the Criminal Procedure Act. He testified against Payi and Qulu. I don't really want to take it any further than that. If the application doesn't allow for it then we must deal with it if and when it arises. If the application is supplemented by the evidence it's broad enough to allow for it then I would ask that you consider it. I'm in your hands as far as that is concerned, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll consider it. I'm not saying we can't do it but I've put my difficulty to you and we'll consider it and we'll include it in our decision.

MR VAN DEN BERG: I have no other aspects which I wish to address you on. We're asking for amnesty in respect of the death of Ben Langa, the attack on the police van and any incidents which may flow from that and primarily reference to the legal position of arms and ammunition. As it pleases the Committee.

MR VAN DEN BERG: Any submissions Mr Bizos?

MR BIZOS IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I would not make any submissions to oppose the application for amnesty by the applicant. What we do, however, urge the Committee to make a finding of fact because it will help putting an end to this ...(indistinct) that were made in relation to the late Ben Langa. We make this submission not on the basis of a mere suggestion that - well as a mere suggestion but I base it on very cogent evidence. The evidence comes from the African National Congress. We've already referred to page 136 and also to which is specific but also 135 which is specific. There is a confession, there is no reason to disbelieve it. There is the statement in 6.2.7 but I would submit that you will find corroboration in this, in the evidence of the application that this was a serious error. It's corroborated by the evidence of the applicant himself who says that as soon as he got to Lesotho he was told that this was a mistake and although he did not use those words quite clearly, that it should never have happened. So this is not an ex post facto attempt to clear Ben Langa's name. There is solid evidence to support it.

&#9;A finding of fact is necessary and will be particularly useful in the process of reconciliation. A finding of fact to that effect will put an end once and for all the statements made. I think I ought to draw attention that there is a contradiction between the statements of the two persons who did the killing as to the identity of the person who gave the instruction. They say that it was a person who brought them over, brought them into the country.

CHAIRPERSON: At the trial?

MR BIZOS: At the trial.

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence at the trial.

MR BIZOS: At the trial. Now I think I want to put on record that I had a consultation with that person who is present here and he denies that he gave such instruction. One can only speculate as to why the persons on trial may have named the wrong person who was said to have given them the instruction. They obviously would not have wanted to implicate their commander, their senior commander, and it may well have been an easier course for them if they attributed the instruction to a person that was not well known, that the police were not likely to have known and also would not have implicated a high-profile person. So insofar as one has ever been able to prove that a serious mistake was made, it has been proved in this matter and we would urge the Committee to make a finding of fact with that effect, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel?

MS PATEL IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;In my capacity as legal representative for Mr Mtetwa, my instructions still remain, not to oppose the application. If I may for a moment be granted an opportunity and take that hat off and put my hat on as leader of evidence and respond to my learned colleague Mr van der Berg's request that you consider an additional application in respect of the conspiracy to murder Dr Faith Motlabani. If I may place on record that that matter is not properly before you, it hasn't been investigated at all.

&#9;Furthermore, that the application as it stands, Mr Martin's application as it stands, the language in which it is phrased doesn't allow you any leeway in which to consider any further applications or applications for further incidents. It is unfortunate but unfortunately we are bound by the terms of the Act and we do not have the capacity or the jurisdiction to condone a late application of this nature. Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, before ...(indistinct) may I take the opportunity to thank our staff, the TRC, for the preparation of the record before us. I think they've done thorough work and it's seldom that we have the opportunity in public thank them for what they're doing behind the scenes. I'd like to put that on record today.

&#9;Doe that then completes our roll here in Pietermaritzburg?

MS PATEL: Yes that is correct, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You'll get hold of the names of all the possible victims, of the various deceased?

MS PATEL: Yes I will Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Anything else somebody wants to add? 

&#9;The Committee will adjourn and wish to thank the staff for the preparation here and everybody who attended and all the families who came forward and advanced the reconciliation that we all seek to achieve through the TRC Act. Thank you very much.

HEARING ADJOURNS

&#9;-------------------

