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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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 &#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARINGS

DATE:&#9;&#9;&#9;3 AUGUST 1998

HELD AT:&#9;&#9;&#9;JOHANNESBURG

IN THE MATTER OF: SHELL HOUSE

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ON RESUMPTION

MS PATEL: I thank you Chairperson.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Honourable Chair. May I beg leave to call as a witness on behalf of the objectors, Mr Jimmy Stephens. I have prepared a bundle of - that contains the statements of the witnesses which we intend leading on behalf of the objectors and some other documents which we would like to refer to for purposes of argument. May I beg leave to hand this up to the honourable Committee. It has got an index and it's paginated for purposes of reference Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) 

MR DORFLING: I would think so Mr Chair. Unfortunately I don't know where we've come to. 

CHAIRPERSON: Provisionally we'll mark this as Exhibit E. I'm advised that this will be E, but if it transpires that we will have to change it then we will do that. 

MR DORFLING: As the Committee pleases.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair may I just indicate before we commence with this witness, the witness has indicated to me that he is employed with a specific business concern, he does not wish the specific concern's identity to be disclosed for obvious reasons. May I beg leave for that not to be disclosed for record purposes?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) unless something material turns on it.

MR DORFLING: I don't believe so. I have canvassed that with the representatives for the applicants, there doesn't seem to be any difficulty with that.

MR STEPHENS: (Duly sworn in, states)

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, I would just like to indicate to the witness that the microphone in front of you, Mr Stephens, should be activated by yourself. If you speak, just press the red button. Once you've finished, just press the grey button for it to be switched off.

&#9;Mr Stephens, on the 28th of March 1994 you were the Manager of a business concern situated at the corners of King George and Plein Streets, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Your business was actually situated right at the corner of those two streets, and the windows had a view overlooking King George Street in a northerly direction, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: What time did you arrive at work that morning?

MR STEPHENS: It must have been about 08H00, roundabout there.

MR DORFLING: Just for purposes of background, prior to that day, had you ever seen marches of Zulu people gathering in and around the centre of Johannesburg?

MR STEPHENS: Yes I have.

MR DORFLING: How many times had you experienced it before that day?

MR STEPHENS: Well I'm not exactly sure, but marches used to happen on a continuous basis in the Johannesburg area, but IFP marches, I can't recall exactly how many.

MR DORFLING: Can you please relate to the Committee what you saw on the day of the 28th of March 1994? Can we take it from the time you started, and I would just like you to refer with specific reference to the marchers that you saw, what were your experiences that day?

MR STEPHENS: Okay, there were previous marches in the morning. There was - I remember one specific one which was a fairly small march, where they actually walked down Plein Street in a easterly direction past the Shell House entrance. There was a small group of Inkatha marchers, they were escorted by Police. There were ANC - well I take it that they were ANC people because they had guns, they were waving them at the marchers that walked past. There was one ...(intervention) 

MR DORFLING: Can I just interrupt you there. Then you say you take it that they were ANC people, what brought you under that impression?

MR STEPHENS: Because earlier on they were all gathered outside the ANC - outside Shell House entrance, and they were chatting with one another. When the Inkatha marchers came past, they walked up to the side of the road to where they were - almost like approached them, and anyway, they were waving their arms around as well as the one or two guys that waved hand-pistols. And then the one - there was one biggish Inkatha guy, he looked like he was a steward or one of the guys that kept them in control or so, he actually pointed to the Policemen, saying to them that there were guys, that obviously were antagonising them - well it looked that way, it was from a distance, but he pointed it out to him. 

MR DORFLING: And this big gentleman you're referring to, was he amongst a specific group in particular?

MR STEPHENS: Well he was part of the Inkatha march.

MR DORFLING: And after that had been pointed out to the Police, what transpired then?

MR STEPHENS: Well nothing much, the guys moved back a little bit and the march just continued on peacefully with no other incidents happening.

MR DORFLING: Can we just get the direction in which that marchers were moving?

MR STEPHENS: The march went along Plein Street from a westerly to an easterly direction.

MR DORFLING: At what time did this approximately take place?

MR STEPHENS: It could have been between 09H00 and 10H00, somewhere around there.

MR DORFLING: So these marchers passed in your field of view from, as you're standing in your business, from your left to your right. Is that right?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct, ja. Within - it's about 20/30 metres, it's right in front of the shop.

MR DORFLING: Yes, what happened after that?

MR STEPHENS: Well then they marched off. During the day there was - well during the rest of the time before the main march there were Inkatha guys walking around with their weapons, one or two - mostly one at a time, and they were all walking up towards Noord Street in that direction, and some were going towards the ...(indistinct), so I'm not sure if they knew exactly where to meet, but they were all moving up in a northerly direction.

MR DORFLING: You say they had their weapons, what do you mean with "they had their weapons"?

MR STEPHENS: Knobkierries and sticks, that's the main thing that I saw.

MR DORFLING: Did you see any firearms amongst these people?

MR STEPHENS: No not myself personally.

MR DORFLING: Yes you may continue, what happened after that? MR STEPHENS: Well then - I think it before 12 some time, I'm not sure exactly of the time, - well it was probably about 11, somewhere around there that I actually saw all these guards that were previously part of the Shell House incident. They were just gathering outside the entrance itself. And then afterwards I saw the - when the crowd really started building up at Noord Street there, then I saw this one ANC guard come out with a - which I thought was an AK47, sit next to a pillar and he kneeled down, and he was aiming towards them and ...(intervention)

MR DORFLING: Can we just take it slowly Mr Stephens. Where did this gentleman come from, where did you see him for the first time?

MR STEPHENS: Well I was looking at the marchers itself, and I just happened to look over towards the ANC headquarters at the entrance of Shell House, and I saw the guy coming down with the rifle - well say in the last 5 or 10 metres I just saw him come with the rifle, and then he ...(intervention) 

MR DORFLING: And where did he position himself?

MR STEPHENS: It was - there's two pillars on the side - on the easterly side of King George Street, on the corner of Plein, and he just - first of all he stood there, and when the marchers ...(intervention) 

MR DORFLING: Sorry, is that the corners of King George and Plein? 

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: On the easterly side of the King George Street of the intersection?

MR STEPHENS: That's right, on the Shell House side.

MR DORFLING: Next to the Shell House pillars, so to speak?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct. And anyway, then he knelt down as if he was gonna shoot at them ...(intervention) 

MR DORFLING: Okay, can we just concentrate on the marchers that you saw at that point in time, where were they at that point in time?

MR STEPHENS: I think they were between Noord and De Villiers - approaching De Villiers Street, in the King George Street itself.

MR DORFLING: From a northerly to a southerly direction?

MR STEPHENS: Coming in a southerly direction, that's correct. And then - well anyway, as they came up to De Villiers in King George Street, they slowly moved over De Villiers towards - well still in King George, coming towards - in a southerly direction towards Plein Street, that's when this guard ...(intervention) 

MR DORFLING: Can I just interrupt you at this point in time again. What exactly did - was the crowd doing at that stage? What motions - if you compare it to your normal experience of Zulu marches, how would you compare the actions of the crowd as opposed to normal marches at point in time?

MR STEPHENS: Well they were jumping up and down and there was a - you could hear this "woe-woe" noise, obviously chanting, and that was about all that I could see from that distance anyway.

MR DORFLING: Did anything other than - anything other happen than what would happen in a normal march?

MR STEPHENS: At that time it didn't look any different to any other march, to me anyway, except it was a bigger than previous other marches that I'd seen. That was the only difference.

MR DORFLING: Previously that morning?

MR STEPHENS: Previously that morning, and on other occasions.

MR DORFLING: If you would be kind enough to describe the way in which the crowd was moving forward, were they running forward, were they walking forward, what did they do?

MR STEPHENS: I'd say more moving forward, it's almost when they sort of half run on the spot, but sort of move forward at the same time. But not fast, it was a slow movement forward, almost like a walking pace.

MR DORFLING: Yes, and what happened then?

MR STEPHENS: Well as they sort of crossed De Villiers Street, this ANC security guard opened up fire. That's all I saw, and I never heard any previous shots, I just saw him shoot.

MR DORFLING: Is that the gentleman you were referring to that you earlier saw with the - what you believed to be an AK47?

MR STEPHENS: That's right, it was the same guy that was kneeling down.

MR DORFLING: If you say he opened fire, do you know the difference between automatic fire and single-shot fire?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, I do. It was automatic fire, short bursts.

MR DORFLING: What was the crowd's reaction to this fire?

MR STEPHENS: Oh, they just dispersed with quite a few guys trying to hide behind - there was a vehicle in King George Street, on the corner - well on the corner of De Villiers, but in the southerly side of De Villiers in King George, and they were all trying to hide behind this car. Other guys just ran down De Villiers in all directions, and up Noord as well. They just dispersed within a couple of seconds.

MR DORFLING: How far had the marchers progressed into the block between De Villiers and Plein Street in King George Street by the time the shooting started?

MR STEPHENS: They'd basically just entered it, and then the shooting started and then whatever guys could probably ran in 5 to 10 metres inside - you know, looking for cover, and the rest of the guys ran down the side of De Villiers.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) again, all ran for cover, the people that were being shot at?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, the people who were being shot at by this guard, or the guard that I could see shooting. They ran for cover, there were cars in front. In other words if this is De Villiers and if this is King George - as they came into King George just crossing De Villiers Road, there was a car parked over here which was about 5 metres, maybe 10 metres inside in King George, they ran to duck behind - because the firing was coming from that direction, and the other people ran down De Villiers. So it was basically as they crossed De Villiers that the security guard opened up fire.

MR DORFLING: You mentioned the gentleman shooting in short bursts of automatic fire. At the time when the marchers started dispersing, was there still some fire emanating from the firearm of this guard you saw?

MR STEPHENS: Sorry, just say that again.

MR DORFLING: At the time when the marchers started dispersing, when they started running away, was the security guard with the rifle you saw firing on automatic firing, was he still continuing or had his fire stopped at that time?

MR STEPHENS: He was still shooting an automatic in short bursts. The people had basically - well most of them had -there was a big gap, and everybody else was hiding behind the car, and he was still shooting on automatic at that stage.

MR DORFLING: Yes, you may continue Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Well then what happened was - well I also saw by that stage there was quite a few other guards standing around the guard himself with this Policeman that was standing next to him as well, and by then most of the people had dispersed and there was only people behind the car trying to hide away, and what happened was, he re-loaded and he was busy shooting on single-fire.

MR DORFLING: Are you referring to the same gentleman that was using the automatic fire earlier?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct. Because he actually stopped, and I actually ran out the shop and then I actually - because I was trying to get the attention of the Policemen to tell them to stop shooting, because you know, there was basically people who were just like trying to take cover, and that's when another gentleman came across in a green - it looked like a safari-suite, but ...(intervention) 

MR DORFLING: Sorry, could you just repeat that, when another gentleman?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, he ran across the road shooting with a 9mm, and that's when I ran back inside, and I actually saw him standing around the side because he - obviously he couldn't shoot them properly from the angle that he was at, he tried to get a better angle.

MR DORFLING: Can we just try and position this second gentleman you're talking about? What firearm did he have?

MR STEPHENS: Well it was a handgun, it could have been a 9mm, I'm not sure, but it was a handgun.

MR DORFLING: From which direction did he come?

MR STEPHENS: He came from an easterly direction, he ran in a westerly direction down Plein Street, and he was looking straight on King George down the walkway, the pathway, so he could get a better angle at the people that were being shot at.

MR DORFLING: Was he positioned on one of the two pavements of King George Street, so to speak?

MR STEPHENS: Yes he was, he was positioned on the westerly side of King George Street. He was there only for a second or two. As soon as he had shot his loads, he had run back. By that stage I was back inside the shop.

MR DORFLING: So he was positioned on the westerly pavement of King George Street, he was shooting in a northerly direction?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR DORFLING: And can you just repeat, I'm not sure I understood you correctly, he actually crossed King George Street from the easterly to the westerly side?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Why did he do that?

MR STEPHENS: To get a better shot, or a better angle at the Inkatha marchers that were all trying to hide behind the vehicle. Because obviously from the easterly side of corner Plein and King George, his view was obstructed by the car that they were trying to hide behind.

MR DORFLING: And can you give an indication of the number of shots this gentleman fired?

MR STEPHENS: No, there was quite a few, but I couldn't tell you how many. More than five or six.

MR DORFLING: When was the last time you observed the gentleman with the automatic rifle firing?

MR STEPHENS: Well he was the last person to stop firing. I can't exactly say when the last time I saw him. When he was picking up his bullets and then he went back into the ANC building, that's the last time I saw him. Picking up bullets, picking up the cartridges that the empty, empty cartridges, and there was somebody else helping him pick them up as well.

MR DORFLING: By that time the fire from the gentleman with the handgun had ceased, is that right?

MR STEPHENS: Yes. Like I said, the guy with the AK or the assault rifle, he was the last guy to shoot, that I noticed shooting anyway.

MR DORFLING: Did you look at where these people went to after the shooting ceased?

MR STEPHENS: Well they basically all went back towards the entrance of Shell House, and some of them actually stayed around there as well. I can't say how many went inside and how many stayed behind, but they were in that vicinity. But the guy with the - the security guard that had the rifle, I saw him go back inside Shell House.

MR DORFLING: Did you actually see him entering the building?

MR STEPHENS: No, I can't say I did, but he went in that direction, and that's the last I saw of him.

MR DORFLING: Mr Stephens, as far as the positioning of the crowd is concerned after the shooting, what happened to the injured and the dead people, where were they positioned with relation to the block of King George Street between Plein and De Villiers?

MR STEPHENS: Well the people I saw were all on the westerly direction on the corner of De Villiers and King George, basically were all behind that one car. That's the only injured people I really saw.

MR DORFLING: If witnesses before this Committee were to say that, and specifically ANC guards, were to say that they believed at the time when the shooting commenced that there was an attack on either the life or the property of Shell House, what would your comment be to that?

MR STEPHENS: Not a chance, noways. Because the entrance of Shell House is on the southern side of Plein Street, and they were a good 50/60 metres away, and on the wrong side of the road as well, it was around the corner. So I would not say - I'd say that would be totally untrue. I actually phoned the Citizen the next day because what they had reported in the papers, I - but then the journalist phoned me back and she said that she would come see me the next day, but then the next day she didn't come so I phoned them up and they said no, that she had suddenly taken leave, so that was the last of it. Because I actually - I couldn't believe what I actually read in the papers, because I was there, I actually saw it.

MR DORFLING: Mr Stephens, did you see any firearms at the time of the security guard shooting on automatic fire, did you see at that stage any firearms amongst the marchers?

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately the marchers were too far away from me, they were on the other side of De Villiers Street, so I couldn't see from there. So whether they did have or didn't, I can't say.

MR DORFLING: At the time when the shooting commenced, or throughout the time when the shooting was in progress, did you take cognisance of - or was there, do you know, was there any shots fired from your direction in the immediate vicinity of Nando's in the direction of the crowd? I'm talking on the business - your business side of the street.

MR STEPHENS: ...(indistinct) ja. I never heard any shots except for that ANC security guard who had the assault rifle. That was the only shot that I heard from that side, or any shot at that stage. If there were any shots from the northern side, I never heard them.

MR DORFLING: I've got no further questions, thank you Mr Chair. &#9;Mr Stephens, just one question, before the guard with the AK47 fired a shot, that is now from the corner at King George and Plein Street, did you hear any other shots?

MR STEPHENS: No, I didn't.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Stephens.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Good morning Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Good morning Mr Berger, how are you?

MR BERGER: I'm very well thank you. 

MR STEPHENS: Good to hear.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, according to your evidence at the inquest and according to your evidence today, and according to the statement that you made, there was absolutely no reason for the guards to have shot, and in your view this was, to use your words "cold-blooded murder", is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct. From the position that I was in, that is correct.

MR BERGER: And you were in a very good position to observe exactly what was going on that day, am I correct?

MR STEPHENS: I was in a good position to see what the guard did, but besides that I probably was not in the best position.

MR BERGER: Well, you were in your shop from 08H00 that morning until after the shooting incident occurred, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: You were conducting business at your shop that morning, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: There wasn't much business because the streets were relatively deserted in that area of time, correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You observed groups of marchers moving past and you've already told the Committee what happened with one group of marchers that you saw.

MR STEPHENS: That was the only group - the only marchers that I saw, the rest were just individuals moving up towards their destination that they had to go to. It was only one march that I actually saw some of the marchers.

MR BERGER: You never saw any marchers in front of Shell House performing mock attacks on the guards stationed at the entrance to Shell House?

MR STEPHENS: If there was, I think it would have been individuals, because I didn't see a big group of people as such.

MR BERGER: Did you see a smaller group of marchers, not as big as the group that was coming down King George, engaged in mock attacks on the guards at the entrance to Shell House in Plein Street?

MR STEPHENS: I can't say I do recall, unfortunately not.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) 

MR STEPHENS: I can't remember that to be specifically, but what I did see outside the shop was one or two - that's why I said individuals. There were one or two guys with knobkierries and that, and there were some - just walkers-by, and they would you know, sort of half go for them and then just carry on - say something to them and then carry on. That's why I say it could have happened, because I did see that, but on the Shell House, at the entrance itself, I can't recall.

MR BERGER: Marchers would "half go" for whom?

MR STEPHENS: Just basically people walking in the street, whether they were ANC or not I'm not sure - making mock attacks at them. ...(tape ends) 

&#9;Okay, say for example he's standing over here and he's walking this way and I'm walking that way I'd go like that with a knobkierrie and carry on, and maybe say something to him.

MS KHAMPEPE: So you are saying ...(inaudible) 

MR STEPHENS: Mock attacks, that's correct. But on an individual basis that I saw, it might be one or two people in groups, and I saw that maybe two occasions, maybe three.

MR BERGER: I'm talking about mock attacks on the guards stationed at the entrance to Shell House in Plein Street.

MR STEPHENS: I know that's why I said, there unfortunately I can't say. I can't say it did or it did not happen.

MR BERGER: You never saw it?

MR STEPHENS: I never saw it.

MR BERGER: You also never heard any shots being fired before the ANC guard opened fire with an AK47, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: That is correct.

MR BERGER: We know that shots were fired earlier that morning, shortly before this incident from marchers who were in a westerly direction down Plein Street, towards Wanderers Street, you never heard that?

MR STEPHENS: I never did.

MR BERGER: We know that a shot was fired in the immediate vicinity of your shop shortly before the main shooting incident, you never heard that?

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately you do, I don't know.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon?

MR STEPHENS: I said unfortunately you do know it, but I don't, because I never heard it unfortunately.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect Mr Chair, I think my learned friend Mr Berger is perhaps in this regard relying on the ballistic evidence. It was merely one of the possibilities that somebody was firing from the southerly direction of Plein Street in a northerly direction up King George Street, it hasn't been established as a fact on my interpretation of the evidence. It was put as mere congexture of a possibility that might have existed.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) your question on the basis there was a possibility this didn't happen.

MR BERGER: Chairperson, the evidence that I'm referring to was that the ANC witnesses said that there was a SADF person who fired a shot, that was the - the Police said that there was an ANC person who fired a shot. So it was disputed as to who actually fired the shot, but the fact that the shot was fired, as I understand the evidence, was not disputed. Perhaps Mr Dorfling could comment on that.

MR DORFLING: I don't think that's being disputed. I was talking of the direction from the Plein Street side in a northerly direction, into King George. That's what I thought my learned friend was aiming at.

MR BERGER: No, that's not what I was saying at all.

MR STEPHENS: You said the shot was on Wanderers side, hey, in Plein Street, is that the shot you're talking about?

MR BERGER: No, there are two incidents that I'm referring to, there was two or three shots fired ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: Two or three, not one round?

MR BERGER: No, no, hang on a second - from a westerly direction, from the Plein Street side, two or three shots were fired. You never heard that?

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately not, no.

MR BERGER: That's Wanderers ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: I know where that is.

MR BERGER: Towards the intersection of Wanderers and Plein, you know where that is?

MR STEPHENS: H'n.

MR BERGER: Then I'm saying that there was a shot fired in the immediate vicinity of your shop, near the corner of Plein and King George.

MR STEPHENS: That was the one that was disputed between the SADF and the security guard?

MR BERGER: Correct.

MR STEPHENS: Or the ANC ...(intervention) 

MR BERGER: And the Police and the guard.

MR STEPHENS: Ja, I never heard that shot either. How long before the actual shooting did this happen?

MR BERGER: Shortly before, a couple of minutes before the actual shooting.

MR STEPHENS: A couple of minutes, no I didn't hear it.

MR BERGER: You never heard that. Then there is also evidence that shots were fired from somewhere further up - further north of De Villiers Street.

MR STEPHENS: But in King George?

MR BERGER: No, not in King George.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Shots in De Villiers Street and further north of that towards Park Station, you never heard any of those shots?

MR STEPHENS: When you say the shots came from that direction, is it more towards Wanderers side, or is it more towards Plein?

MR BERGER: Wanderers side.

MR STEPHENS: Wanderers side as well, no I never heard that either.

MR BERGER: As you were in your shop, you had a clear view up King George Street, past De Villiers Street, towards Noord Street, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Well as far as the first line of marchers were, yes, I had a clear view.

MR BERGER: I will read to you what you said at page 2513 of the record Mr Stephens, I don't know if it was me who asked you - yes:

&#9;&#9;"If I understand you correctly, you were standing behind the counter in your shop looking north up King George Street?" Answer: "Correct".

&#9;&#9;"And did you have a clear view all the way from where you were, right up, past De Villiers Street up to Noord Street?" --- Answer: "Basically, yes I did."

Do you confirm that?

MR STEPHENS: I do. When - there was two parts to it, cause you said up to De Villiers up to Noord, because in the beginning in Noord Street the marchers were up to Noord and then they moved down to De Villiers, so I could only see up until the first line of marchers. After that, obviously with the people, I wouldn't be able to see further past. But I did have a fairly clear view, yes.

MR BERGER: Yes. But before ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: Besides ...

MR BERGER: Before the marchers got to De Villiers, you could see all the way up to Noord Street, am I right?

MR STEPHENS: Basically yes, a fairly good - a fairly clear view.

MR BERGER: And you were inquisitive to see what was going on, correct?

MR STEPHENS: From time to time, yes.

MR BERGER: I read again to you at the top of page 2515 of your evidence, I asked - bottom of 2514,

&#9;&#9;"What was it about the group that made you concentrate them? --- I do not know about concentration, I was not concentrating on them, I was just basically looking at them."

&#9;&#9;"Yes, and you continued to look at them?" - 

question. 

&#9;&#9;Answer: "Yes, because we are inquisitive to see what is going on."

Do you confirm that?

MR STEPHENS: Yes.

MR BERGER: Now what you saw, if I understand your evidence at the inquest correctly, is that the marchers started gathering in King George Street near the intersection with Noord Street, correct?

MR STEPHENS: It looked that way, yes.

MR BERGER: And this process of the marchers gathering took approximately ½ hour, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Give or take 10 minutes, I'd say yes.

MR BERGER: The ½ hour is your estimation, page 2523 of the record.

MR STEPHENS: Ja, it was an approximate estimation, yes.

MR BERGER: And the marchers were coming from all directions?

MR STEPHENS: I wouldn't say marchers as in groups, I'd say on the individual basis, yes - individual marchers.

MR BERGER: Let met read to you at 2523, I asked you:

&#9;&#9;"You say it looked like they were coming from both sides to fill up the street?" Answer: "Ja, they were coming one by one, two/three people sort of joining in."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER:&#9;"Some were even coming up King George Street from Plein Street, walking up there as well."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Question: 

&#9;&#9;"To join the marchers?" 

&#9;&#9;Answer: "I take it, yes."

&#9;&#9;Question: "Well the people who were going up King George Street towards the marchers seemed to you to be marchers themselves?" Answer: "Yes."

&#9;&#9;"Going to join the march? --- Yes."

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And some of these people were carrying their traditional weapons?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, they were.

MR BERGER: And they were walking from Plein Street, all they way up Plein Street, over De Villiers Street ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: King George.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon, all the way up King George Street, over De Villiers, continued up King George Street to Noord Street to join this group of marchers?

MR STEPHENS: Correct. When I say one or two, it might only have been one or two, but the majority were coming from the top end, and most of the people, or marchers that were joining, went along Plein Street, some in the Wanderers direction and some in Klein direction and actually came around and joined. There were one or two that actually went up King George itself.

MR BERGER: No you didn't say one or two, you say "some were even coming", but I won't quarrel with that.

MR STEPHENS: Some.

MR BERGER: And this whole process took approximately ½ hour?

MR STEPHENS: Don't hold me to it, but roundabout there, I wasn't exactly timing them, but within - like I said, within 10 minutes, maybe 20 minutes, I'm not sure.

MR BERGER: You see Mr Stephens, what is strange about your evidence, and a lot of other evidence that you give, is that nobody, and I literally mean nobody else describes this as having happened, you stand alone on this point. 

MR STEPHENS: I can only say what I saw.

MS KHAMPEPE: ...(inaudible) 

MR STEPHENS: I know it was closed. I think the thing that made me think that they were Inkatha marchers, some of them had either red bands on or some type of weapon, as in a knobkierrie or a stick, and that's the only way that I would say, but to actually say what type of clothes they were wearing, I don't know. A big assortment.

MS KHAMPEPE: And the red bands...(inaudible), were they around their heads?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, some were, I can't recall exactly.

MR BERGER: Thank you. This group that started at King George and Noord was approximately how big?

MR STEPHENS: I'd say it was hard to say, but it was fairly biggish. But the main time I actually noticed them properly, that it was a proper march, was when they came down to De Villiers, because by them the whole street was filled, which was a lot of people. 

MR BERGER: And when you initially saw them they were not such a big group?

MR STEPHENS: Well I wouldn't say a big group from where I was standing, Noord - you must remember Noord is almost three streets up, if you look from Plein to De Villiers to Noord, and they were on that side of Noord, so I just saw people gathering. And that's why when I say people moving across in all directions, that is the way it looked at that stage.

MR BERGER: Coming in two's and three's?

MR STEPHENS: Ones; twos; threes, ja, basically. Maybe more ones than twos and threes.

MR BERGER: At that stage, when the group moved down towards De Villiers Street, there were no ANC guards standing on the corner of Plein and King George, am I correct, according to you?

MR STEPHENS: I actually can't recall, but they were in that vicinity of the entrance of the Shell House, and when they moved down to De Villiers, the ANC guard came out to the pillar, and there was a Policeman with him.

MR BERGER: Before - that's what I'm trying to confirm with you.

MR STEPHENS: H'n.

MR BERGER: Before the ANC guard came out to the corner of Plein and King George, there were no ANC guards on that corner, correct?

MR STEPHENS: During the day they would go there, then they'd move away; they'd go back to the entrance and they'd come back and move away and come back the whole time. They were just roaming around there the whole time, so I can't say at that specific time, I can't recall that they all were there or weren't all there, or one or two were there, I can't recall it.

MR BERGER: You see because your evidence at the inquest was the following:

&#9;&#9;"There were not ANC guards on the corner at the critical time when the group approached the intersection of King George and De Villiers. As they came to the intersection of King George and De Villiers, this ANC guard came out alone to the corner of King George and Plein Street."

MR STEPHENS: Mmm.

MR BERGER: Do you confirm that?

MR STEPHENS: At that specific time it could have been.

MR BERGER: And he was on that corner with a single Policeman?

MR STEPHENS: Correct. And when he started firing, then the whole lot of them came running out - well not running out, but they were in that vicinity, but not right on the corner itself.

MR LAX: Sorry ...(inaudible), you keep saying "they came running out", I struggle to understand where did they come running out from?

MR STEPHENS: Okay, see Plein Street runs like this, you've got the entrance of the ANC of the Shell House which is probably 15/20 metres long, and they were all gathered in that area. Now they've got another 5 metres or 10 metres to go to the corner, and that's where they ran from. So they ran 5 metres - 10 metres, whatever. So in other words whether you're saying they were actually on the corner itself or near the corner, they were in that vicinity, but maybe not at that corner at that specific time when they guard started shooting. When the guard started shooting, then they came to the corner, the corner itself.

MR LAX: Are you trying to say to us that they appeared around the corner ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR LAX: To your line of vision?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, at that stage, yes. We're talking now as the shooting started, yes.

MR LAX: But you couldn't see around the corner yourself?

MR STEPHENS: No I can, I can see them, they're standing right here in front of me, I could see them. I think, like I said as well, most of the time we were looking more towards the marchers itself, because it's the last thing I expected is shots to go off at that stage.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. You were looking at the marchers and ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: Most of the time, yes.

MR BERGER: Yes. And you can't say from where this person came with the AK47, but the last 5 to 10 metres you saw him coming from the direction of the entrance towards the corner of Plein and King George?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, see because we saw them the whole day type - well the whole day - well that whole morning anyway we saw them, and they were all around the entrance the whole time. And then, like I said, when the marchers were at De Villiers and King George, I saw him break away basically from the crowd and come and stand at the side there with the gun, and he got on his haunches on his knees.

MR BERGER: No you never saw him break away from the crowd, let me read to you what you said at page 2519:

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Middle of the page:

&#9;Question: 

&#9;&#9;"So you first saw the marchers, and then you saw this guard coming from the entrance of Shell House and positioning himself in King George Street?"

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER: Answer: 

&#9;&#9;"I cannot say I actually saw him coming from the entrance, I just saw him. I probably saw the last 5 metres from the entrance, coming in that - from the direction of the entrance that I saw him standing there by the pillar with a Policeman."

MR STEPHENS: Quite correct, but I didn't say he didn't come from a crowd either.

MS KHAMPEPE: ...(inaudible) 

MR STEPHENS: Sorry can you just turn your microphone up, I can barely hear you.

MS KHAMPEPE: I'm probably getting slightly confused because from the exhibit given to us by Mr Dorfling, that's Exhibit E, page 26, you state at paragraph 2 that you saw an ANC security guard coming out of Shell House and standing next to the pillar and there was a SA Policeman standing next to him. Are you still talking of the same person?

MR STEPHENS: Same person, yes I am. So in other words I saw him come out of the - well, in the vicinity of the Shell House. He was standing around there with the rest of the group, so in other words he had come out of the ANC basically, and from there he moved across. So I took it he was part of the Shell House guards, because I had seen him during the day, in that morning.

MS KHAMPEPE: What made him to be so conspicuous to you, what made you to observe him ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: Well for starters he had an assault rifle with him and he was dressed in the ANC security guards' uniform.

MS KHAMPEPE: What kind of a uniform would that be?

MR STEPHENS: Well like I said, I noticed him having a white top on and black pants, and he was standing with the rest of the guys there, and obviously he's not going to be an Inkatha marcher if he's standing there with an assault rifle, that's the way I took it.

MS KHAMPEPE: Okay, were the other security guards that you later observed after his magazine had been finished, also wearing the same kind of uniform?

MR STEPHENS: No, they were all wearing plain clothes. He's the only guy that I recall actually wearing the uniform.

MS KHAMPEPE: And you say it was a black and white uniform?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, I must put it to you that firstly black and white are not the colours of the ANC; and secondly that this man was not in an ANC uniform.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: There's no such thing as a uniform for the ANC guards.

MR STEPHENS: Okay well I was saying a security uniform is what I meant. 

MR BERGER: Let's just get one thing clear Mr Stephens, you did not see this man come out of Shell House, am I correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct I would say, yes. If you're being specific about that, yes.

MR BERGER: I'm using the words used by you in your affidavit.

MR STEPHENS: Well I - during the day I had seen him come out there, yes. But I couldn't say at that time specifically that he had come out the ANC - or out of Shell House.

MR BERGER: All you saw according ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: ...(indistinct) 

MR BERGER: Sorry?

MR STEPHENS: Then it would be no.

MR BERGER: All you saw according to you was the last 5 metres from an easterly direction towards the corner of Plein and King George.

MR STEPHENS: Correct, 5/10 metres, yes.

MR BERGER: He stood there at the pillar and it was just the two of them, the ANC guard and the Policeman next to each other on the corner, no-one else was around them. 

MR STEPHENS: At the pillar itself, no, just the two of them.

MR BERGER: No-one else was near them at that corner, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Correct, that's at the pillar.

MR BERGER: At the corner Mr Stephens, no-one was there at the corner other than this ANC guard and the Policeman?

MR STEPHENS: How far away from the corner do you mean, at the corner itself? Because if it's at the corner itself at the pillar I'd say no, but if it was at the corner - because you've got two corners, you've got the pillar here, and you've got the corner here, which is another 2/3 metres wide, and there some of them were standing and some of them were standing at the entrance. I'm talking now about supposedly I took it as ANC guards, I took it as that. They weren't in any uniform, they were in plain clothes, but they had handguns.

MR BERGER: The ANC guards you are talking about are the guards who were in Plein Street outside the entrance to Shell House?

MR STEPHENS: Correct, at the entrance as well as close to the corner. But at the corner itself, at the pillar, it was only that I - well you're saying that there is no uniform for the ANC guard, a security guard with an assault rifle is the only ones that I saw at the pillar, which I took as the corner.

MR BERGER: Let me put it this way then Mr Stephens, the only two people at the corner of Plein and King George who could have seen the marchers coming down towards De Villiers Street would have been this ANC guard with the AK47 rifle, and the Policeman standing next to him, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Well they definitely could see them.

MR BERGER: The ANC guard standing outside the entrance to Shell House in Plein Street could not possibly have seen a crowd gathering at the corner of King George and De Villiers, agree?

MR STEPHENS: No, they knew that they were there because they were up and down the whole time. That's why I said they weren't in one specific space all the time, they were moving up and down. But at that time when the shooting started, there was only the Policeman and the ANC security - well I took it as okay, the security guard that was standing there, that's all that I knew at that specific time. Before that, 20 seconds before it, 10 seconds before it, the guys were moving up and down, so they knew exactly what was happening. But when the shots started, there was only the guard there and the Policeman. Ten ...(intervention) 

CHAIRPERSON: While they were outside, sorry.

MR STEPHENS: Ten seconds before, 15 seconds before, they could have been there, but when the shooting started, that's when I looked up and saw, and I only saw the Policeman and the security guard there, I never saw anybody else.

CHAIRPERSON: This much is clear, that those that you say were moving towards the corner and back towards the entrance, let's talk about them. Whilst they were outside the entrance, they couldn't have seen the marchers, that's quite clear isn't it?

MR STEPHENS: Quite correct, if they - when they were at the entrance they couldn't see the marchers, which is quite correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Well the picture that you have in your mind is that some of them were moving backwards and forwards.

MR STEPHENS: Yes, they were, the whole time, standing in groups having a chat, moving back towards the corner to see what was happening, and moving back toward the entrance again.

CHAIRPERSON: This might be a convenient stage to take the adjournment. We'll adjourn for 15 minutes.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS 

ON RESUMPTION

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, the evidence that you've given this morning about it's possible that 15 or 10 seconds before the shooting, there were ANC guards on the corner of Plein and King George was simply not given by you at the inquest.

MR STEPHENS: Maybe it wasn't asked, because I was talking at the time of the shooting, I wasn't talking like I said, a little time before, a little time after, it was just - the moment the shooting started, there was a Policeman and a guard there, that's all that I can recall.

MR BERGER: Well I'll just summarise your evidence at the inquest very briefly. At pages 2521 to 2522 you were - I see you have your evidence there.

MR STEPHENS: Ja.

MR BERGER: 2521 in the middle of the page, you saw a guard coming from the direction of the entrance of Shell House; you saw the Policeman, you didn't know where the Policeman came from. Then over the page you said that ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: Like I said over here as well, it says "coming from the direction of the entrance hall", I didn't specifically say, because I probably at that stage didn't actually see him coming out of the entrance itself.

MR BERGER: And then you said at the top of 2522 that the Policeman was standing at the right-hand side of the guard, he was standing at the pillar; you said that the guard was right next to the Policeman, and then I said to you: "And at that stage it was only the two of them on the corner?".

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And your answer was you can actually recall it, you've got Small Street, Plein and then it becomes King George and Plein. So in other words they are on the corner of King George and Plein like you said, on the easterly side. And then I said to you: 

&#9;&#9;"Yes, and there is no-one else around them, it is just the two of them?" 

&#9;&#9;Answer: "Basically, yes."

MR STEPHENS: Yes, basically yes. Because basically because at the corner itself it was just the two of them. If you're talking a couple of metres away, the other guards could have been there. Look here, this happened four years ago, my mind is not - you know, it's something I think about everyday. My main focus was on the guard and the Policeman and the marchers, whether they were two metres away, five metres away, I can't recall 100%. That's why I said "basically, yes".

MR BERGER: You see again Mr Stephens, on this point your evidence stands alone. Nobody, no other witness puts the guard and this Policeman alone on the corner at the critical time of the shooting.

MR STEPHENS: Well I'm just saying as I saw it. At that stage I saw the guard and I saw the Policeman, that's why I said basically that's all I saw at that time.

MR BERGER: Just to go back to the other incident where your evidence stands alone, about the marchers gathering at the corner of King George and Noord for approximately ½ hour, not even the marchers support you on that.

MR STEPHENS: What do they say?

MR BERGER: They say they came from Park Station, they split into two groups, some came ...(inaudible), others came along De Villiers Street, and they converged at the corner, at the intersection of De Villiers and King George. None of them talk about gathering up there in Noord Street for approximately ½ hour. All of them say that they alighted from the train at Park Station and proceeded directly in the direction of Shell House.

MR STEPHENS: Well I can only say that's - like I said the ½ hour, it could have been 10 or 15 minutes either way, I'm not sure.

MR BERGER: Even on the 10/15 minutes, not a single marcher supports you.

MR STEPHENS: Okay, I could be wrong there, I don't know, but that's all that I saw at the time. At that stage 1 minute could have been 5 minutes, I don't know, but I saw the marchers, the marchers were there.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, I put it to you that you're not being truthful at all.

MR STEPHENS: I'm being as truthful as I remember. But you must remember it happened four years ago, I don't think about this all the time. At that stage it might have felt like a long time.

MR BERGER: You also did not see a group of marchers coming ...(tape ends)

MR STEPHENS: At that stage I don't think I did see them, I just saw them basically in King George. But like I was saying earlier as well if you read my statement, we were serving customers, it was basically business as usual to a certain degree. So I just kept looking up and I'd just see marches getting bigger and bigger every now and then, that's all that I saw.

MR BERGER: You agreed with me earlier on this morning that it was not business as usual, in fact it was quite quiet you said.

MR STEPHENS: Yes it was, but we were carrying on as usual, it was just a quiet period, because we do have quiet periods in the shop as well, which is still business as usual.

MR BERGER: We know that a large group of marchers came along De Villiers Street from West to east, and congregated in the intersection. You never saw that, correct?

MR STEPHENS: No.

MR BERGER: Now your evidence is that this group that came down from Noord Street to the intersection of De Villiers and King George, stopped for a couple of minutes in the intersection, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Yes.

MR BERGER: And you were observing them, and yet you say nothing happened in that intersection for those minutes.

MR STEPHENS: Not that I can recall, no.

MR BERGER: For example, you did not see two white policemen in uniform, running up from Plein Street up King George to De Villiers ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: No ...(intervention) 

MR BERGER: With arms outstretched in an attempt to keep the marchers away from Shell House. You never saw that?

MR STEPHENS: I can't recall that, no.

MR BERGER: You never saw a tall, thin, white man with long hair, arms outstretched, trying to prevent the marchers from coming towards Shell House? You never saw that either, did you?

MR STEPHENS: I did not.

MR BERGER: And all of this was going on in the intersection at the time when the group was also in that intersection.

MR STEPHENS: Could be, I don't know, but I never saw it.

MR BERGER: You never saw the two white policemen being pushed out of the way by this group?

MR STEPHENS: Nope.

MR BERGER: You never saw the group engulfing this tall, thin, white man with the long hair?

MR STEPHENS: No I did not.

MR BERGER: And yet you say this group wasn't attacking. How can you say that if you never saw these significant moments?

MR STEPHENS: I can only see what I saw, and at - I didn't see them attacking anybody. They could have, I didn't say they never attacked anybody, I said I never saw them attack anybody. Whether they did or didn't, that's another thing. If you got other witnesses that did see it, well maybe it did happen, but I never saw it personally, so I can't say it did or it did not happen.

MR BERGER: You also saw approximately 10 blue uniformed policemen at the corner of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got to the intersection?

MR STEPHENS: Yes I could have.

MR BERGER: Would you like me to refresh your memory?

MR STEPHENS: Look here, it was a long time ago, if I said it at that stage, it could have been. I had seen Policemen the whole day in small groups of two's, maybe fours milling around there during the morning.

MR BERGER: Page 2529, top of the page, 

&#9;&#9;"You saw approximately 10 blue uniformed Policemen standing in the area of the intersection of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got there?" 

&#9;&#9;Answer: "Correct."

Do you not recall that Mr Stephens?

MR STEPHENS: Not right now, no.

MR BERGER: You told the inquest that there were three policemen on the inside of King George, and two or three on the western side of King George just standing looking at the marchers.

MR STEPHENS: Ja there were - at that stage there were policemen around there, but to tell you the exact amount now, I'd be lying because I can't remember.

MR BERGER: But you see, there weren't these policemen, three on the east and two/three on the west standing looking at the marchers up there at the intersection of King George and De Villiers. It didn't happen. So where do you get this evidence from Mr Stephens?

MR STEPHENS: I can only tell you that's what I saw at the time.

MR BERGER: But the fact is that it never happened.

MR STEPHENS: Is it a fact? So in fact there were no policemen there, is that what you're saying, is it a fact?

MR BERGER: Not at that intersection. The only two policemen at that intersection were Van Greenen and Van Reenen, the two that I described to you, who ran up from King George towards De Villiers with arms outstretched to stop the marchers, and you never saw them, but you saw others.

MR STEPHENS: Maybe they were part of them that I saw. It actually says over here: 

&#9;&#9;"And where they still there when the marchers reached De Villiers Street?", and I said: "I cannot recall that."

If you actually read there. So at the time - I'm not saying that they were there, cause I actually said "I cannot recall that."

MR BERGER: Yes but if you'll turn over the page to page 2530 Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: The Court asked you: 

&#9;&#9;"There were a couple of Police where? What is - you seem to have a picture in your mind of policemen." 

&#9;&#9;Answer: "Say four - say two or three on either side of King George; three on the east side, two or three on the west side."

MR STEPHENS: Basically ...(intervention) 

MR BERGER: And then I ask you:

&#9;&#9;"Just standing there looking at the marchers?" 

&#9;&#9;Answer: "Basically yes."

Then we go on a little bit further,

&#9;&#9;"You did not see them trying to control the marchers?" 

&#9;&#9;Answer: "No."

&#9;&#9;"Then at some point after a few minutes of pause, the group crossed De Villiers towards King George, correct?" 

&#9;&#9;"Correct." 

Sorry, towards Plein, you say "yes" towards Plein.

MR STEPHENS: Can I just read this quickly? Okay I've said here,

&#9;&#9;"And when the group got to De Villiers Street, you cannot recall seeing any Policemen in the vicinity of the group? No, I do not know. What I can remember is there was a couple of Policemen there, whether they moved around the corner or went away, I do not know."

That's what I'm saying, so by the time the marchers got there, the policemen moved away. Does it not say there, unless I'm reading it incorrectly, I don't know, your Worship - Chairman.

MS KHAMPEPE: On a point of clarification, Mr Berger, how soon would you say, Mr Stephens, after observing the uniformed policemen, did you notice the marchers converging at the intersection of King George and Plein Street?

MR STEPHENS: Just repeat that please.

MS KHAMPEPE: How soon after you had observed the uniformed policemen, did you then notice the marchers converging at the corner of King George and Plein Street?

MR STEPHENS: They'd already converged on De Villiers and King George, they had already converged when the guard came out. And he was - and that's when he got on his knees, on his haunches and he aimed towards them, and then when they walked across, that's when he started firing.

MS KHAMPEPE: I probably haven't made myself quite clear.

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MS KHAMPEPE: See, in your - you've just stated to Mr Berger that you agree with what you've said before the inquest court, that you saw approximately 10 blue uniformed policemen.

MR STEPHENS: What page is that one?

MS KHAMPEPE: That's on page 2529. 

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Berger has just put it to you that that's what you said during the inquest, that you saw approximately 10 blue uniformed Policemen standing in the area of the intersection of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got there. And you say it was before the marchers got there.

MR STEPHENS: Okay, which is correct.

MS KHAMPEPE: Now my question is, how soon did you notice the marchers converging at that corner, after you had observed the 10 blue uniformed Policemen you've alluded here at page 2529?

MR STEPHENS: I can't recall, it might - don't know, can't recall. Because the lead-up to the marchers coming down, I saw Policemen in the street. Whether they were at the top there, in the street I saw the Policemen. When the actual march started when they crossed De Villiers, I never saw any Policemen after that, I can't recall seeing any policemen after that.

MS KHAMPEPE: Are you not even able to assist us in approximating in terms of seconds or minutes, or hours?

MR STEPHENS: No, because as you can see, the time that I mentioned before, I've been held to that time now, where at the time I wasn't sure what time it was, and I just took a guess at 30 minutes, maybe give or take, and I wasn't sure. And I'm not sure, I can't say any minutes, otherwise I'm gonna be held again to it, and I am not sure.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

MR STEPHENS: Because it actually says here, and I don't understand where Mr Berger - where the confusion is coming in.

MR LAX: Can I just clarify something?

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR LAX: The impression I get from the evidence that's been put to you about what you said at the inquest, is that these policemen were watching the marchers, doing nothing, when you noticed them.

MR STEPHENS: That's correct.

MR LAX: Now where were the marchers at that point, were they at the intersection already ...

MR STEPHENS: Of De Villiers, yes.

MR LAX: So they'd obviously got to that intersection, they were static at that point, and the Policemen were watching them.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR LAX: Because then they go on to ask you whether they intervened in some way, and you say no, not that you can remember, etc.

MR STEPHENS: Not that I saw, no.

MR LAX: And then after that the shooting happened?

MR STEPHENS: Correct, once they crossed the street - by then the Police had moved up towards the marchers. Maybe that's when - like Mr Berger says, they did try and stop them, I don't know. In that - maybe it was a question of 5/10 seconds where they were holding their hands up and telling the guys not to march. I might have been looking away in those 5/10 seconds, that's why I never saw it.

MR LAX: Just in terms of time, and not to pin you down, this is not the exercise, we're trying to get your help here, but we're talking more in terms of tens of seconds rather than tens of minutes?

MR STEPHENS: Quite right, one or two minutes, something like that, yes.

MR LAX: Thanks.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Stephens, there is no confusion on your evidence, your evidence at the inquest was, and I'll do it very briefly, 2529, you saw approximately 10 blue uniformed policemen at that intersection of King George and De Villiers before the marchers got there.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: You say correct.

MR STEPHENS: That's right.

MR BERGER: Then I asked you:

&#9;&#9;"And where they still there when the marchers reached De Villiers Street?"

MR STEPHENS: I said "I cannot recall that."

MR BERGER: Correct.

MR STEPHENS: No, not correct, "I cannot recall that." - sorry.

MR BERGER: And then over the page 2530, I continued to ask you, I said, confirming what you had already just said:

&#9;"And when the group got to De Villiers, ..." this is at the top of 2530.

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER:&#9;"... you cannot recall seeing any Policemen in the vicinity of the group?" 

&#9;&#9;Answer: "No, there were - I do not know. What I can remember is there were a couple of Police there, whether they moved around the corner or they went away, I do not know."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Then the Court said:

&#9;&#9;"There were a couple of Police where? What is - you seem to have a picture in your mind of Policemen." 

Your answer: 

&#9;&#9;"Say four, say two or three on either side of King George, three on the east side, and two or three on the west side."

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER: Question from me:

&#9;&#9;"Standing there looking at the marchers?" Answer: "Basically yes."

Now it's quite clear what you are saying, two or three blue uniformed Policemen on the west side of King George, three blue uniformed Policemen on the east side of King George - all of this is happening at the intersection of De Villiers when the marchers are there and the Policemen are just looking at the marchers, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Ja, that was before the march, because if you go to page 2529 which is still part of the questioning, it says:

&#9;&#9;"And were they still there when the marchers reached De Villiers Street?" 

And I said: 

&#9;&#9;"I cannot recall that because I was looking more at the marchers than the Police."

And this is all in the same questioning, you can't just take a little context out and say okay, now that's the answer for it, you got to look at the whole thing, and that was part of the - this is continuing from 2529.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, if you look at the top of 2530,

MR STEPHENS: Yip.

MR BERGER: I used your words when I said "when the group got to De Villiers Street, you cannot recall seeing any Policemen in the vicinity of the group".

MR STEPHENS: And I said "no".

MR BERGER: And your answer was "no".

MR STEPHENS: So by then they'd moved away.

MR BERGER: No Mr Stephens, please just read what you got there, you don't say "they'd moved away", you said "no, there were - I do not know. What I can remember is there were a couple of Police there". You don't say they moved away, you say the opposite.

MR STEPHENS: Then it says further on:

&#9;&#9;"Whether they moved around the corner or they went away, I do not know."

MR BERGER: Yes?

MR STEPHENS: I actually don't know what you're actually getting at.

MR BERGER: Well what I'll put to you Mr Stephens, is that whichever way you want to take this evidence, its stands alone. None of the policemen ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: But here it says here:

&#9;&#9;"And when the group got to De Villiers Street, you cannot recall seeing any policemen in the vicinity of the group? No, there were - I do not know. What I can remember is there were a couple of policemen there at that time. Whether they moved around the corner or they went away, I do not know."

MR BERGER: Let me move on Mr Stephens. As the group comes across De Villiers Street into King George, this guard with the AK47 opens fire whilst on his haunches?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And he fires straight into the group of marchers, correct?

MR STEPHENS: That's the way it looked.

MR BERGER: The Policeman just stood next to him doing nothing?

MR STEPHENS: That's the way it looked.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens this is your evidence I'm referring to.

MR STEPHENS: What page are you on now?

MR BERGER: Well that is your evidence, am I right?

MR STEPHENS: Sure.

MR BERGER: No sooner had the group crossed De Villiers, than the guard opened fire, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Well they basically just about crossed De Villiers, yes. They'd come to the end of De Villiers Street when the guard started shooting. It wasn't that they were on the other side of De Villiers and then he started shooting, it was only once they'd - they were in King George, and if that's the road, as they came to the end of De Villiers, that's basically when they started shooting, give or take a metre or two.

MR BERGER: As they entered into King George Street?

MR STEPHENS: Basically as they had just about crossed De Villiers Street, almost into King George, yes.

MR BERGER: And this ANC guard emptied an entire ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: Security guard.

MR BERGER: I beg your pardon?

MR STEPHENS: You said security guard - ja, you said it - okay, ANC guard.

MR BERGER: I said "this ANC guard".

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Emptied an entire magazine on the marchers?

MR STEPHENS: No I didn't say that, I said that he shot on automatic and I wasn't sure if he had emptied - if he had actually finished the whole round. I just took it for granted because I didn't think this he's gonna change the magazine if it wasn't empty. So I take it that he did finish it.

MR BERGER: For how long did he shoot?

MR STEPHENS: 10/15 seconds, I'm not sure, but ...(intervention) 

MR BERGER: Well I won't keep you to that, in your evidence in the inquest you said "a good 15 to 20 seconds". You said he fired 7 to 10 bursts, a good 15 to 20 seconds before he released, correct?

MR STEPHENS: Okay.

MR BERGER: Then he re-loaded and then he started firing on single shots?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And the policeman was still standing next to him doing nothing?

MR STEPHENS: That's the way it looked to me, yes.

MR BERGER: Again Mr Stephens, your evidence on this stands alone. No-one else describes the shooting in this way, but it's what you saw.

MR STEPHENS: That I did see, yes, and I was right there.

MR BERGER: Who else fired shots at the marchers, you've mentioned the ANC guard with the AK47, who else fired shots?

MR STEPHENS: And there was a guy with a green uniform - a green - it looked like a safari-suite, but it was like a matching top and pants.

MR BERGER: Green?

MR STEPHENS: Green.

MR BERGER: And besides the man in green, who else fired shots at the marchers?

MR STEPHENS: Well I only saw one other person that I can recall.

MR BERGER: Who?

MR STEPHENS: It was another one of the guys that was standing around there, that I took as part of the ANC ...(indistinct), round - that was hovering around, but I can't say he was part of them or wasn't, but that was the only other person. So there were basically three people that I saw shoot - actually fire, but my main concentration was on the guard that was shooting as well as the guy that ran across the road because he was quite - it was quite explicit where he was actually coming from. And at that stage I was outside the shop as well, and that's why I saw him, and that's when I ran back inside again.

MR BERGER: Again, your evidence about the man in green absolutely stands alone. No-one else talks about this man, no Policeman, no ANC guard.

MR STEPHENS: Well all I can tell you is I definitely saw him, and I'm under oath, and I swear to God, I saw him. I saw him shoot, I was there, I saw it. Whether nobody else saw it, it's the same as other things that I never saw, whether other people didn't see it as well, I don't know. But I saw it.

MR BERGER: Now ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: And I've no reason to lie either. In fact it would be in my better interest not to be here.

MR BERGER: Well you've been subpoenaed haven't you?

MR STEPHENS: Only after I gave a statement to the Police, but I actually didn't want to let it come to this. So I would definitely not make up things, I can assure you of that.

MR BERGER: The other man who was shooting, now not the man in green and not the ANC guard with the AK47, where was he shooting from?

MR STEPHENS: He was standing next to the pillar on the corner there.

MR BERGER: Same pillar where the policeman and the ANC guard was?

MR STEPHENS: More to the right.

MR BERGER: More to your right?

MR STEPHENS: More to their right.

MR BERGER: And yours?

MR STEPHENS: And mine, correct.

MR BERGER: Now these two, the man on the right and the man in green, they only started shooting at a time when the AK47 was being fired on single fire, correct?

MR STEPHENS: That I could recall, yes. That's the only time I noticed them because if you can imagine this assault rifle shooting on automatic, I think any other little handgun, you basically not even gonna hear it, so they could have been shooting before that, but at the time I didn't see it, because I only heard the AK basically, or the assault rifle. So they might have been shooting before, but I never heard them at that stage.

MR BERGER: Isn't it your evidence, or wasn't it your evidence that the other ANC members only came out and started firing after the man with the AK47 was shooting on single-fire?

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed, yes.

MR BERGER: And so at the time when he was shooting on automatic, that 15 to 20 second period, there was no-one else at that corner firing shots?

MR STEPHENS: I didn't say ...(intervention) 

MR BERGER: In fact there no-one else at that corner.

MR STEPHENS: I said that there was nobody else that I noticed shooting. So in other words, according to my statement, they wouldn't be shooting because I never noticed it.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you said at page 2536, Mr Stephens, line 11:

&#9;&#9;"When his magazine was finished, he then re-loaded and started shooting on single-fire. Other ANC members afterwards," this is now after he was shooting on single-fire, "with 9mm came out and also started firing, okay, and also started firing on the crowd, and that is what happened."

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed, yes.

MR BERGER: Then I asked you the question:

&#9;&#9;"So the other ANC members, the man in the green safari-suite, the other one with the 9mm who fired, they only came out from the entrance and started firing after this man with the AK47 was already shooting on single-fire, correct? --- That's what it looks there - and that is not correct, because when he started firing, that is when everybody came out, but I only noticed the guy that fired with the green uniform afterwards."

&#9;&#9;"In other words when he was shooting on single-shot? --- I do not know if he was there before because what was happening, when he was shooting on single-shot other people was still coming out as well. I do not know if they were inside the building, they had come down, or whatever, but they came out afterwards."

MR STEPHENS: Correct. So in other words, if you read over here:

&#9;&#9;"That is not correct, because when he started firing, in other words on automatic, that is when everybody came out, but I only noticed that the guy had fired with the green uniform afterwards."

&#9;So in other words when he started shooting on automatic the other guys came running out, and I noticed a couple of them standing there, whether it was all of them -but guys - obviously they came to see what was going on, that the guy was shooting on automatic. And I only noticed them shooting when he put it on single-shot, and the reason for that is, it took a couple of seconds to change the magazine and it probably drew my attention to the fact that I heard other shots because now the assault rifle had stopped firing.

MR BERGER: Please turn to page 2538 Mr Stephens, line 17, this is not when you're trying to get the attention of the Policeman:

&#9;&#9;"You wanted to get his attention so that he could stop this man from now shooting on single-fire?" 

this the man with the AK47.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Your answer: 

&#9;&#9;"That is right, because by then the other guards had not started firing yet."

MR STEPHENS: Ja, that I noticed. According to me they hadn't started firing yet, maybe they had have, I don't know. But at that stage I did not see them shooting, or recall them shooting.

MR BERGER: See Mr Stephens your evidence is quite clear, the 15 to 20 second burst with the AK47 was fired directly into this crowd by the ANC guard standing alone on the corner with a Policeman.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: It's only after that the he gets joined by ANC guards from the entrance of Shell House.

MR STEPHENS: No I didn't say that.

MR DORFLING: With the greatest respect to my learned friend, the witness has answered this question on numerous occasions. What the witness said is after that gentleman - after he saw that gentleman firing on automatic fire, only after that did he realise that somebody else was not also firing. He never said nobody was firing before that point in time.

MR STEPHENS: You see, the thing is everything that's written down here, I can only answer from what I saw. They might have been shooting beforehand, I can't say that they were or they weren't, because I can only say - and that's what I've written in my statement here, is what I actually saw. And whether I noticed a minute later or five seconds later that somebody else was also shooting, you must realise that assault rifle is quite a loud shot compared to a little 9mm or a handgun for whatever calibre it is, and it might have been drowning. When he was shooting on automatic obviously it was drowning the other bullets out, I don't know, I can't say because they might not even have been shooting, I don't know. But according to your witnesses they say that they were.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you said in your statement that you wrote shortly after the event. You talk about in paragraph - this is page 26 of Exhibit E, you say:

&#9;&#9;"The IFP or Zulu marchers", paragraph 3, "were gathered at the top end of King George. When they approached De Villiers Street coming down in King George, this ANC security guard then started firing on these marchers with his automatic rifle - think it was AK47, he was shooting on automatic."

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: Then paragraph 4:

&#9;&#9;"When his magazine was finished he then re-loaded and then started shooting on single-fire. Other ANC members with 9mm pistols or pistols then came out and also started firing on the crowd."

MR STEPHENS: Yes.

MR BERGER: Statement is very clear Mr Stephens.

MR STEPHENS: Ja.

MR BERGER: That the other ANC members with 9mm pistols only came out and started firing on the crowd at a time when the ANC guard was shooting on single-fire, it's clear. 

MR STEPHENS: That's not the way it was because - well that's - I don't obviously express myself very well, because some of them had been there while he was firing, so...

MR BERGER: Well that wasn't your evidence at the inquest, it's not in your statement.

MR STEPHENS: Okay, where - just show me where in the inquest, because everytime I've gone through it I think I've sort of proved you wrong, so I'd like to know - because you keep making these statements and you're not upholding it. You even twisting words inside here, and when I read it out to you again it doesn't come out the same way.

MR BERGER: Let me just read to you ...(intervention) 

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Berger may I just intervene at this stage to find out now where are we getting with all this detailed cross-examination on minor differences between what he said here and what was said earlier, and so on. How is the amnesty process advanced by this kind of evidence?

MR BERGER: Chairperson, this witness says that there was a man with an AK47 who opened fire on a crowd for 15 to 20 seconds. That evidence stands alone, there's no evidence to support that. 

MR STEPHENS: So what you're saying the AK ...(intervention) 

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) (microphone not on) and we're not beginning a trial here, I want you to appreciate that please. ...(inaudible). We've got his evidence, we've got the record of the evidence at the inquest ...(inaudible). There are differences between what he's saying now and what ...(inaudible) at the inquest. You can make whatever point you wish to make, ...(inaudible). I'm not going to stop you from continuing your questioning, but I'm just concerned that maybe ...(inaudible) 

MR BERGER: As the Committee pleases. 

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Berger, may I try to be on the same page probably with your cross-examination? Has it not been one of the applicant's version that there was a man who leaned against a pillar from the position which is nearly the same as that alluded to by Mr Stephens, who fired an AK47?

MR BERGER: Yes, that's correct.

MR NGCOBO: But wasn't that one of the applicants Mr Berger?

MS KHAMPEPE: Yes.

MR BERGER: Yes it was.

MS KHAMPEPE: And it's Mr Beea if I remember well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BERGER: No, no ...(intervention) 

MS KHAMPEPE: I can't remember then the name of the applicant exactly.

MR BERGER: It's Mr Khumalo.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Khumalo, that's right. So I think probably we do understand where you want to get us to, but I think you must just try and reconcile that with the criteria that we have to use as a Committee. If you could just curtail your cross-examination to that.

MR BERGER: I will. Ms Khampepe, it's not in dispute that there was a man with an AK47 at the time, but you would have gathered from the evidence of the ANC guards, and in fact the evidence of policemen who were on the scene as well, that the ANC guards were all in a group on the corner of Plein and King George when the shooting began, which is - stands in stark contrast to the evidence of this witness.

MS KHAMPEPE: No I'm sure we are fully aware of that by now, you've really traversed quite a lot to make that crystal clear, we now understand what your cross-examination is aiming at.

MR STEPHENS: I think what you're trying to say is - you know, the thing is, I saw a guard standing there with the policeman. Now you're saying that the rest of the guards were all standing there with him. Within 4/5 metres they might have been, because you've got two pillars here - when you standing with him, I meant - I took it that you're talking them actually standing around the guy with the AK47, which I did not notice at that stage, they were a good 2 or 3 metres away from him, towards the corner because - but I think we're splitting hairs here you know, it's very - it's a small thing this here. Basically the guard did shoot, other ANC members also shot, and I think that's the basic evidence, I don't know whether the guys were 2 metres or 3 metres away, what difference that actually does make. I've never said that they weren't there, they were there, and I've even said that they were shooting.

MS KHAMPEPE: I think the problem Mr Stephens, we don't want to debate this, Mr Berger is a bit worried about what you stated quite earlier on when the issues were quite fresh in your mind, as he has referred us to page 26, particularly at paragraph 24, where you state quite clearly that ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: Sorry is that 22 ...

MS KHAMPEPE: Page 26 of ...(intervention) 

MR STEPHENS: 2526?

MR LAX: No, page 26.

MS KHAMPEPE: No, page 26, that's Exhibit E, the statement that was handed over by Mr Dorfling to us this morning, where you are now - you are stating that the guards came out only after the man with an AK47 had finished his magazine and had re-loaded and was now only firing single shots. And we understand the ambit of - the thrust of your cross-examination Mr Berger, to that extent.

MR STEPHENS: No because I only then noticed the ANC members coming out and also started firing. So only then that I noticed it. You must realise when I wrote this, it was abbreviated, it wasn't an in-depth ...

MR LAX: Can I just clarify one thing. It seems clear to me from what you've been saying that your attention was focused on the man who was shooting.

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR LAX: You didn't - the other people that were in his vicinity weren't shooting as far as you can recall?

MR STEPHENS: Not that I noticed ja, it was like a blur because I basically, like I said in my statement before, I was basically watching the guy with the AK47 and the marchers diving behind cars, and it's only then afterwards that I noticed the other guys there shooting.

MR LAX: When things slowed down and there was a changing of magazines and so-one, then you became aware of other people on your version, coming out, that's how you express it ...

MR STEPHENS: Ja.

MR LAX: And then they start shooting as well.

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed them shooting. That's why I said, they could have been shooting beforehand, I'm not disputing that.

MR LAX: Ja.

MR STEPHENS: It's the same with other - the guys on the roof on the other side on that parapet, or whatever you call it - on a balcony, I never even noticed those people, but they were there. That's why I'm saying, it could have been but I never noticed it, so I can only say what I saw.

MR LAX: Can I say this, if there were people standing in close proximity to this man with the AK47 that was on his haunches, would you have seen them? Did you actually see them?

MR STEPHENS: I saw them, yes, I did see them, but I didn't - how can I say, thought that they were participating at that stage, because they were at the corner.

MR LAX: You see, the impression that you give us in your evidence is that you didn't see them, but you only noticed them later.

MR STEPHENS: Well that is basically what happened. That's why I'm not saying they weren't there, they could have been there, but at that stage my focus was on the guy with the AK47.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR STEPHENS: They could have been there, but I never really noticed them as such, and that's why my evidence that I give might be a little misleading in a way - to the nitty gritty, to great detail, which I don't have unfortunately.

MR BERGER: Mr Stephens, when the guard with the AK47 opened fire, were you watching him, or were you attending to business?

MR STEPHENS: I was watching him. Because when he started aiming I knew that something was gonna happen because the people were too far away for anything to really start happening, and for him to start aiming at them at that distance, I just thought something's gonna happen, and I don't realise why it's gonna happen. 

MR BERGER: You never saw a marcher with an AK47 firing in King George Street between De Villiers and Plein?

MR STEPHENS: Unfortunately I did not it, no, and I never heard it either.

MR BERGER: You see, there was a witness, a Mr Diaz, who worked in a shop in King George Street, directly in your line of vision.

MR STEPHENS: I don't dispute that, he could have seen it, but I never saw it, so I can't say I did. Like I say, I never heard it, whether he did or didn't.

MR BERGER: And he said that at the time this man with the AK47 was firing, the marchers were approximately 10 metres past his shop, Mr Diaz's shop, towards Plein Street, and he put his shop, the entrance to his shop as approximately 20 metres from the corner of De Villiers. In other words, what he was say was, at the time that this man with the AK47 was firing, the marchers were approximately 30 metres into King George Street.

MR STEPHENS: Between De Villiers and ...

MR BERGER: Plein.

MR STEPHENS: Plein. No, I disagree with that, because as they crossed, they weren't even 5/10 metres, they basically got up to the car when he started firing, so I would disagree with that.

MR BERGER: A Policeman by the name of Skippers also saw a marcher with an AK47 between De Villiers and Plein Street.

MR STEPHENS: He could have, I never saw it.

MR BERGER: Your evidence is that the guy with the AK47 opened up, after 15 to 20 seconds he reloaded, and the road was basically clear except for the people who were hiding behind the cars?

MR STEPHENS: Correct.

MR BERGER: And was only then that the two other ANC people, the one in green and the one not in green, started firing.

MR STEPHENS: That I noticed. They could have started firing before that, but I never noticed.

MR BERGER: If that was your evidence, you certainly would have told the inquest court that as well.

MR STEPHENS: But I just realised that whatever I'm saying now I'm getting held it, it's like the nitty gritty, we're going into great detail. At that stage it was just you know, basically suddenly things were happening, I didn't realise that this was the way it was gonna lead. I know I've got to watch what I say now, and I can't recall everything.

MR BERGER: For the record Mr Stephens, we went into great detail at the inquest as well. You never heard any warning shots being fired, is that correct?

MR STEPHENS: Nope.

MR BERGER: And you're absolutely certain that the very first shots you heard that morning were shots fired by the man with the AK47 into the crowd?

MR STEPHENS: Yes, that I heard, yes.

MR BERGER: The white person, the white man with the long hair who you never saw, testified that this crowd at the corner of King George and De Villiers were waving their weapons and then proceeded down King George Street towards Plein Street on full charge, in the manner of carrying out an attack.

MR STEPHENS: If that's the perception he got, I can't say that it's not. That's his perception, and that's his version, but from where I was standing it did not look like a charge, it looked like the start of a march.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR DORFLING: Just one aspect with your leave, Mr Chair. Mr Stephens can I hand you a map depicting the scene, and I would like you to with reference to this map, just indicate with the red pen with the letter "O" - I see there's another red mark, it might be misleading on another place on the map, but with the red letter "O" where your business concern was situated, from where your view was.

MR STEPHENS: Okay. Okay, can I just see if I'm understanding that correct, you wanna know where the guy with the AK47 was standing, where he was shooting?

MR DORFLING: No, I want you to with the letter "O" point your business concern.

MR STEPHENS: Oh business concern.

MR DORFLING: Your business premises. Before you hand back the map, can you at the same time with the letter "P" perhaps indicate where the gentleman with the automatic assault rifle was positioned. 

Mr Stephens in conclusion may I ask you whether from your vantage point where you were positioned, can you from that point actually observe the main entrance to Shell House?

MR STEPHENS: From my shop to the main entrance, yes I can.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair. If that could just be handed to the Committee. That's unfortunately the only one I've got, may I beg leave to just get it back once it's been ...(indistinct)

&#9;I've got no further questions to the witness, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Stephens thank you very much, you're excused.

MR STEPHENS: Thank you sir.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair, I'm ready with the next witness, I've just been talking to my learned friend who has a watching brief on the South African Police Services. It would appear that it's not advisable to start with the evidence in chief now and commence after lunch, I would rather have us adjourn now, we might perhaps just start a bit earlier if you so wish, and then proceed with the evidence in chief of the next witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Your reason for not starting now?

MR DORFLING: It's virtually lunch, it's 12 minutes to lunch time, we would probably not even finish the evidence in chief of this witness, I'd rather have us adjourn perhaps 10 minutes and start 10 minutes earlier, to have the evidence in chief and the cross-examination in one session.

CHAIRPERSON: Well on the understanding that we do start 10 minutes earlier ...(intervention) 

MR BIZOS: Mr Chairman, may I indicate, unbeknown to me I have made an arrangement to meet someone at between 1 and 2, but of course I may have to cut it short in order to be here, but there's no reason I submit, why we can't use the 10 minutes now available.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now Mr Bizos, if we did there's gonna be very little difference in the totality of all this evidence.

MR BIZOS: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then whilst your absence is gonna be missed by me, I'm sure that we'll be seeing more of you.

GENERAL LAUGHTER

MR BIZOS: Thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn now and we will resume at 13h50.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: I've been told that on - those who have difficulty, his evidence in Afrikaans can be heard on channel 4.

J M S POTGIETER: (Duly sworn in, states):

MR DORFLING: Chairperson, Sergeant, you are a Sergeant that is stationed at the Border Police, Johannesburg International Airport?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: On the 28th of March 1994 you were a Constable in the South African Police, and on that day you were stationed at the Small Street Satellite Police Station, is that correct?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that is correct.

MR BERGER: Is there not another way that we can do this, because one is hearing English and Afrikaans at the same time? Is it not possible for the interpreter to sit in the panel - in the booth?

CHANNELS BEING TESTED BY INTERPRETER - CONTINUED ON TAPE 3

MR DORFLING: ... of March 1994, Sergeant, you were stationed at Small Street Satellite Police Station?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: During that morning you were posted for service at Shell House, and more specifically on the corners of King George and Plein Street?

MR POTGIETER: Originally we were posted to patrol in the station, and the Colonel gave us the instruction to patrol at Shell House.

MR DORFLING: Were you on foot when you were posted at Shell House?

MR POTGIETER: We were transported there with a vehicle, but at that stage we were on foot.

MR DORFLING: Did you see any Zulu marchers going past Shell House when you were there?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR DORFLING: Shortly before what is known now as the chief shooting incident, certain events took place in which you were involved. Can you briefly describe what happened?

MR POTGIETER: I was on the corner of Plein and Klein Streets. We heard a gunshot in a western direction, we ran in that direction. When we crossed King George we heard shots being fired from the back of us. We took shelter, turned back and saw that there was an ANC guard, and we gave him the order to stop firing.

MR DORFLING: You said that there was an ANC guard on the parapet and you gave him the order to stop firing?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Did you see him firing?

MR POTGIETER: I heard him shooting.

MR DORFLING: What happened next?

MR POTGIETER: We stood up and moved back in the direction of Klein Street. When we crossed King George we saw a group of protest-marchers in King George Street at Noord Street. 

MR DORFLING: You therefore moving down from west to east in Plein Street in the direction of King George Street at that stage?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: Where exactly did you see the protest-marchers? 

MR POTGIETER: They were in King George Street on the corner of Noord Street. It was a large group, they were in King George street between De Villiers and Noord.

MR DORFLING: In what direction were these marchers moving?

MR POTGIETER: They were moving southwards down King George?

MR DORFLING: In the direction of De Villiers?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Where exactly was your position at that stage?

MR POTGIETER: I was on the corner of Plein and King George.

MR DORFLING: And what happened next?

MR POTGIETER: Then between 10 and 15 ANC guards arrived on the scene. Sergeants Van Reenen and Van Greenen moved northward up from Plein Street in the direction of De Villiers in order to prevent the approaching Zulus.

MR DORFLING: Were there any other Police members with you where you were?

MR POTGIETER: Myself and Sergeant Gollach.

MR DORFLING: What happened next?

MR POTGIETER: I was with the ANC guards and Sergeant van Reenen that was with the ANC guards, that stood between them and Sergeant van Reenen. 

MR DORFLING: So you were more or less in the vicinity of the corners of King George and Plein Streets?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Between 10 to 15 ANC guards, those that you saw there, were they armed?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Which arms did you see?

MR POTGIETER: Handguns as well as a man with an AK.

MR DORFLING: What happened next?

MR POTGIETER: I turned around and looked at Sergeant van Reenen and the others to see what was happening, then when I turned around again and ANC guard was pointing a weapon at my chest and told me to leave or he would shoot me personally.

MR DORFLING: In other words you looked northward up King George and De Villiers Street in the direction of the protest-marchers; after that you turned around, you were still on that corner and at that stage the weapon was pressed against your chest?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MR DORFLING: What happened after that?

MR POTGIETER: I moved around and saw that the man was serious. I went to stand behind them. From there I looked in the direction of De Villiers Street and saw Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant van Greenen being pushed out of the way, in the directions of east and west.

MR DORFLING: Just a moment, you said that you moved around them, you are now referring to the ANC guards?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: What do you mean when you say that you moved around them?

MR POTGIETER: If I stood like this, I moved around them to the back.

MR DORFLING: Were they in a specific formation?

MR POTGIETER: No they were just a group of people standing there.

MR DORFLING: You took your position in behind them and looked in the direction of De Villiers Street - north, what happened then?

MR POTGIETER: They told us that they would shoot, upon which we told them not to shoot, and upon the moment that Sergeant van Reenen and the others were pushed out of the way, the shots were fired.

MR DORFLING: Where did the shots get fired?

MR POTGIETER: From De Villiers over the street corners into King George, that was approximately 5 to 6 steps from the corners when they pushed the two officials out of the way.

MR DORFLING: So these protest-marchers crossed De Villiers Street, they were moving in a southward direction, and you say that the front part moved into King George approximately 5 to 6 metres?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: And when the shots were fired, did you know from where they were fired?

MR POTGIETER: From among the guards.

MR DORFLING: Are those the guards behind which you took your position?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: What did you do then?

MR POTGIETER: When the shots - while they were still shooting we kept on asking them "don't shoot, don't shoot", but when the shots went off I ran around the building to see what had happened to Sergeants van Reenen and Van Greenen.

MR DORFLING: When you say that you ran behind the building - or around the building, do you mean from east to west down Plein and then north into Klein, and then once again west into De Villiers?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, from west to east in Klein and then from east to west in De Villiers.

MR DORFLING: So you ran past the main entrance of Shell House, around the Shell House building, into De Villiers?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Until the stage that the first shots were fired, did you watch the protest-marchers?

MR POTGIETER: Correct, it was one image from where I stood.

MR DORFLING: Did you see any fire-arms among the marchers at that stage?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR DORFLING: This Committee has heard evidence that the protest-marchers shot in the direction of either Shell House or where the guards were standing; that the marchers stormed forward in the direction of the ANC guards and that the ANC guards were under the impression that an attack was being launched on them. What is your reaction to that?

MR POTGIETER: I heard no shots from that side, they didn't run, they were toyi-toying, it was sort of a jogging motion at a metre distance tempo, they didn't dash.

MR DORFLING: On the day of the incident, 28th of March 1994, how many years of service had you behind you in the South African Police?

MR POTGIETER: Almost two years.

MR DORFLING: Were you at any stage before that day involved in marches, specifically where Zulus were involved?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct, part of my functions were to assist in marches.

MR DORFLING: The image that you had in the direction of De Villiers Street, the group which you saw moving forward, was their behaviour in any way different to the experience that you had had of such marches before that day?

MR POTGIETER: No, they were basically just toyi-toying.

MR DORFLING: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) 

MR PRETORIUS: Just one question please, Chairperson. Sergeant, earlier that morning, you were in the vicinity of Lancet Hall, is that correct?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct, yes.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you attempt to enter Lancet Hall?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: From where did you attempt to enter Lancet Hall?

MR POTGIETER: The motor-gate in Von Weilligh Street.

MR PRETORIUS: When you went there was the gate in order?

MR POTGIETER: It was in order, I broke it.

MR PRETORIUS: Did you break it yourself?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRETORIUS: Why?

MR POTGIETER: In order to gain entry because the front gates were locked.

MR PRETORIUS: No further questions.

MR BERGER: Thank you Chairperson. Is it Sergeant Potgieter?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Can we first of all deal with the shooting a few minutes before the main shooting in Plein Street, do you recall that?

MR POTGIETER: Ja we heard the shots, ja.

MR BERGER: You can speak in Afrikaans if you like.

MR POTGIETER: Thank you.

MR BERGER: Those shots, those first shots that you heard, they came from the direction of Wanderers Street, corner of Wanderers and Plein, correct?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that a number of Policemen then went to investigate what was going on down in Wanderers Street - you started off going in that direction?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct Sergeant, that the reason you went in that direction was because one of the ANC guards came to your group of Policemen and said "they're shooting at us, please go and investigate"?

MR POTGIETER: No, we heard shots and we went to investigate.

MR BERGER: You were with - at that time you were with Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant van Greenen, is that correct?

MR POTGIETER: And Gollach. I don't know about Van Greenen, but Gollach definitely.

MR BERGER: Gollach was there, and Van Reenen was there? 

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You went in that direction to investigate and then there was a shot behind you?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And is it also correct that behind you at the time, there were ANC guards and there were also members of the SADF?

MR POTGIETER: I know about the ANC guards, but not about the National Defence Force.

MR BERGER: You say that that shot that you heard behind you came from the ANC, but is it correct that you don't really know who fired that shot?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct, we saw a man with a shotgun on the parapet, that's all.

MR BERGER: You only saw one ANC guard on the parapet with a shotgun?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: That shot that you heard which you attributed to the ANC, was that the only shot that you heard which you would have attributed to the ANC before the main shooting?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: There were no other shots in and around the vicinity of Shell House prior to the main shooting other than this particular shot we're talking about?

MR POTGIETER: No, not that I know of, it's only those shots that we heard that made us run in that direction.

MR BERGER: Prior to that shot, or the shots which you heard coming from the direction of Wanderers Street?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: If one has a look at your affidavit, paragraph 13 - page 13 sorry, paragraph 3, this is where you deal with the shooting from the direction of Wanderers Street, and that's where you say that you Sergeant Gollach and Sergeant van Reenen ran in that direction, you say there:

&#9;&#9;"While we were busy running in that direction people came out or appeared on the balcony of Shell House with shotguns, which they shot over our heads at a group of Zulus who were in Wanderers Street."

MR POTGIETER: In my affidavit I say that there were people on the balcony, but not that people appeared on the balcony, meaning that they were already there. I didn't say that they had appeared on the balcony.

MR BERGER: They shot with shotguns from the balcony ...(intervention) 

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Towards the people - marchers in Wanderers Street?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: I don't want to nitpick with you, but your evidence was that there was one person, and this was the same point that was raised at the inquest, one point with the shotgun, and you can't explain why in your affidavit you speak about a number of people with shotguns, am I right?

MR POTGIETER: No, that's correct.

MR BERGER: What is not disputed is that there was a group of marchers in Wanderers Street and you and Sergeant van Reenen - or Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant Gollach were of a view that there were shots had come from their direction, and that's why you went in the direction to investigate.

MR POTGIETER: The shots came from that direction, but we don't know exactly if they came from the Zulus.

MR BERGER: But you saw them there?

MR POTGIETER: Yes.

MR BERGER: And would you confirm your evidence at page 3101 of the record that there two or three shots ahead of you, that's from the direction of the marchers in Wanderers Street, one shot from behind?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: When you were coming back, is it correct that you didn't go further down Wanderers Street because you - I beg you pardon, Plein Street towards Wanderers Street, because that group had now disappeared?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You were now coming back towards Shell House?

MR POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: And I take it you can't dispute that Sergeant - or was it Constable Scheepers was also with you at that time?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, I didn't see him personally, I know that he had been posted there at Shell House.

MR BERGER: He stated in his statement and he also stated in evidence, that as he was crossing King George Street in Plein Street moving in an easterly direction, he saw a marcher with an AK47 approaching down King George Street between De Villiers and Plein.

MR POTGIETER: No, at that stage they weren't that close.

MR BERGER: Did you ever see a marcher with an AK47?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And no stage?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And you never saw a marcher firing an AK47 either?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And you were standing on that corner for the entire duration of the shooting?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You also wouldn't be able to explain or comment on the evidence of Mr Diaz, you heard me put it earlier this morning whilst you were in here to Mr Stephens, that Mr Diaz says there was a man with an AK47, in fact firing. In his statement he says: "spraying Shell House", but then in his evidence later, he said: "firing an AK47 into the air", right in front of his shop.

MR POTGIETER: No I didn't see somebody like that.

MR BERGER: He was there, you ought to have seen him.

MR POTGIETER: If he had been there we would have seen him, we were in the street, but I didn't see that person.

MR BERGER: You also never saw any marcher shooting towards Shell House at any stage?

MR POTGIETER: No, I saw no shots being fired from that side.

MR BERGER: We know that shots were in fact fired at Shell House, but you didn't see that?

MR POTGIETER: I didn't hear or see them.

MR BERGER: You had received no specific instructions when you arrived at Shell House other - from Major Nel, other than to do general patrols around Shell House?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You were quite worried were you not, that you as Policemen were under-staffed, should any trouble break out at Shell House?

MR POTGIETER: At that stage we didn't think that any difficulties or problems would arise.

MR BERGER: During the evidence at the inquest it was either Sergeant Gollach or Sergeant Scheepers who said that - I asked them "were you not afraid what should you do if trouble broke out", and the one of them's evidence was "yes I was afraid, in fact I asked Sergeant Potgieter what we should do and I discussed it with him, and he also didn't know, he was also afraid".

MR POTGIETER: At that stage I wasn't a Sergeant.

MR BERGER: Well he spoke about Potgieter.

MR POTGIETER: No, I can't remember anything like that.

MR BERGER: The Policeman in charge was Major Els, is that correct?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And at the critical time of the shooting he was nowhere to be found, is that also correct?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And I see a smile coming onto your lips because you know what the next question is, isn't it correct that you pulled him out from under a car, he was hiding under a car during the shooting?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: He had been - just before he took cover under a car, he had been at the corner of Plein and Klein Streets, am I right?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct, that's where the car was.

MR BERGER: And that's where you found him taking cover?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Now the ANC guards who came to the corner of King George and Plein Street, came in a group - there were a number of them who came to the corner, is that correct?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You told the Committee today that they were armed with handguns and an AK47?

MR POTGIETER: In as far as I know.

MR BERGER: Those would be 9mm handguns and one AK47?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, one could call them handguns, 9mm 762's as well as AK's.

MR BERGER: So when you say in paragraph 5 of your statement at page - of your affidavit at page 14, that: "They had shotguns and 9mm pistols", that's incorrect?

MR POTGIETER: I can't remember everything, but I know about the pistols and the AK, a man was lying there and shooting.

MR BERGER: This evidence of an ANC guard pointing a gun at you and saying that he would shoot at you, that's not correct is it Sergeant Potgieter?

MR POTGIETER: It is correct.

MR BERGER: You made this up after the event didn't you?

MR POTGIETER: Negative.

MR BERGER: Other than the shots that you've testified to about down at Wanderers Street and the one shot behind you, there were no other shots prior to the actual shooting incident, you've already said that to the Committee. You never heard any shots in De Villiers Street shortly before the main shooting?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: You never heard any shots coming from the direction of Park Station shortly before the main shooting?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And at that time you were stationed at the corner of Plein and King George?

MR POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: You'll recall Sergeant Potgieter, that when you gave evidence in the inquest we did an exercise in Court and we - to get an approximation of how long the shooting lasted?

MR POTGIETER: Yes. 

MR BERGER: And we agreed that it was approximately 12 seconds?

MR POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: From the time that the marchers were shot at until the shooting ended, 12 seconds.

MR POTGIETER: Yes, approximately that long.

MR BERGER: And at no stage did you hear any warning shots being fired?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: And also at no stage did you witness any shots being fired into the overhanging ceiling at the corner of Plein and King George?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: You see, because we know from the ballistic evidence that shots were fired into that overhanging ceiling, and we know specifically that two 9mm shots were fired, to use the words of the expert "directly upon into the overhanging ceiling at the corner of King George and Plein", you never witnessed that?

MR POTGIETER: No, I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: It's your evidence that there was an initial shot from amongst the group of ANC guards.

MR POTGIETER: There was the one shot, and then a millisecond later the gross shooting took place.

MR BERGER: You never saw a man in green running across the road and firing shots down the western pavement of King George Street?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Now you saw Sergeant van Reenen and Sergeant van Greenen moving down - or north up King George Street to the intersection to try and prevent the marchers from coming down?

MR POTGIETER: Correct.

MR BERGER: You saw that they had their hands open and they were clearly indicating to the marchers "don't come down this way"?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You saw that they were completely ignored by the marchers and your words were "pushed out of the way"?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Do you know that Sergeant van Greenen received an injury in that process?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, we found that out subsequently.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct that prior to the main shooting incident you thought that the Police needed reinforcements?

MR POTGIETER: There was a large group of people, yes. One would have expected or needed greater assistance.

MR BERGER: From where did the marchers come?

MR POTGIETER: In King George from Noord Street in a norther direction.

MR BERGER: From north to south down King George?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You never saw any marchers coming from De Villiers, from west to east towards King George Street?

MR POTGIETER: No I didn't see anything like that.

MR BERGER: You'll have to speak up.

MR POTGIETER: No I didn't see such people.

MR BERGER: I take it that you were particularly concerned to see what was happening in the intersection when Van Reenen and Van Greenen went up to stop the marchers?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And at no stage, is it correct, did you see a tall, thin white man with long hair also attempting to stop the marchers from proceeding down towards Plein Street?

MR POTGIETER: No I didn't see such a man.

MR BERGER: Isn't it possible Sergeant Potgieter, that you were not observing the marchers at all relevant times?

MR POTGIETER: No, I did observe from time to time.

MR BERGER: You see, because there's no doubt that that man, his name is Mr von Eggedy, that that man was in the intersection at the critical time.

MR POTGIETER: I didn't see him.

MR BERGER: And therefore I put it to you that you were not observing the marchers at the critical time.

MR POTGIETER: I did.

MR BERGER: How many of the ANC guards at the corner there of Plein and King George did you see opening fire on the crowd?

MR POTGIETER: I'm not entirely certain, but I would say about 10 to 15 people, I'm not certain.

MR BERGER: Between 5 and 10?

MR POTGIETER: Approximately 10, between 10 to 15, give or take a number of people, I'm not certain.

MR BERGER: This person, Mr von Eggedy, says that the marchers were waving their weapons around and that they commenced coming down towards the corner of Plein and King George, or towards Plein Street, on full charge in the manner of carrying out an attack.

MR POTGIETER: No, they toyi-toyied, it was a sort of a jogging-walking motion, it wasn't a sprint that they ran, it was a sort of dance.

MR BERGER: Surely if you never even saw Mr von Eggedy, you can't dispute his evidence as to what was happening at the critical time Sergeant Potgieter.

MR POTGIETER: I didn't see Mr von Eggedy, I don't know what he saw.

MR BERGER: Mr von Eggedy too was injured as the marcher overran him.

MR POTGIETER: I don't know about that.

MR BERGER: He is seen on TV with blood streaming down his face.

MR POTGIETER: I don't know, I only saw the photos during the inquest.

MR BERGER: Isn't it correct Sergeant Potgieter, that as the marchers - as you saw the marchers ignoring Sergeant van Reenen and Van Greenen, and as they began their attack, that you ran around the corner for your own safety?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Did you ever run around the corner for your own safety?

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Let me read to you what you say in paragraph 9 - I beg your pardon, paragraph 8 of your affidavit, it's at page 14 of Bundle E, you say, I will translate from Afrikaans to English:

&#9;&#9;"The Zulus then pushed Sergeant van Greenen and Van Reenen out of the road and moved closer to Shell House. One of the people who stood there with me shouted that they were going to shoot - that he was going to shoot, which he did." 

Well while we're at that point, I put it to you that that never happened.

MR POTGIETER: A shot was fired, I can't remember seeing a specific person firing that shot. One shot was fired and then the gross shooting began.

MR BERGER: After - what I'm putting to you, I'm not putting to you that there wasn't shooting, I'm putting to you that he didn't shout "we're now going to shoot", and then shoot.

MR POTGIETER: That happened.

MR BERGER:&#9;"After he started shooting everyone was standing around him began shooting with shotguns", which you don't remember anymore, "pistols, and the person with the AK47 started firing with automatic fire."

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: You'll agree with me at least if I put it to you that there were no shotguns at that corner?

MR POTGIETER: I can't remember that.

MR BERGER:&#9;"There was also a person on the balcony of Shell House who began to shoot at the Zulus with a shotgun."

MR POTGIETER: I can't remember that.

MR BERGER: Well, I can tell you that there were four people on the balcony, and as far as shotguns are concerned, there were three people who fired shotguns on the balcony.

MR POTGIETER: Probably, I don't know.

MR BERGER: And then this is the part that I wanted to read to you:

&#9;&#9;"I saw" - and I'll read it in Afrikaans, "Ek het gesien dat van die Zulus val en het toe om die hoek beweeg vir veiligheid en het toe om die gebou beweeg om te sien of ek hulp aan die ander twee lede kan bied."

MR POTGIETER: That was the during the inquest, I can't remember why safety was put down there. Where I was standing there was no danger to me in my direction. I just moved around the building to see whether I could offer assistance to the other two members.

MR BERGER: So when you say here that "I moved around the corner for safety", you cannot explain why that appears in the affidavit?

MR POTGIETER: No, I don't know.

MR BERGER: Isn't it because you are a little embarrassed, and really there's no reason to be embarrassed ...

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: To admit that things were actually frightening at that time, and that you did what any person would have done in your position, and that was to just get around the corner for safety.

MR POTGIETER: No, the Zulus were approximately 50 paces away from us. On that corner there was no danger because I heard no shots from that side, or experienced any danger from that side in my direction.

MR BERGER: You see because if you had gone around the corner for safety, that would explain why you didn't see Mr von Eggedy; that would explain why you didn't see the man with the AK47 infront of Mr Diaz's shop; that would explain why you didn't see any shots being fired at Shell House by the marchers, it would explain a whole lot of things if you would just explain what is in here in your affidavit that you went around the corner for safety.

MR POTGIETER: Sir I didn't see any white man, I didn't see anybody running in front of the shop with an AK47, I didn't run away to seek safety.

MR BERGER: You also said in your evidence at the inquest that after you'd gone around the corner from King George to - along Plein to Klein and then up to De Villiers, and then round again to the corner of King George and De Villiers, that you spent three quarters of an hour on that corner, you recall that evidence?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, that's correct.

MR BERGER: And it was only after you'd spent that three quarters of an hour that you returned back to the corner of King George and Plein Street?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: And we've dealt with this before, but I'm sure you know where I'm going ...

MR POTGIETER: Yes.

MR BERGER: Paragraph 9 of your statement, of your affidavit, page 15, this is now after you've gone around the corner "vir veiligheid" and gone around the building to see if you can help anybody, you say:

&#9;&#9;"...ek het later ongeveer 2 minute later terugbeweeg en het op die hoeke van Kleinstraat en Pleinstraat gaan staan."

Now you say that's not correct?

MR POTGIETER: I don't know about the two minutes later, this entire paragraph is not part of my memory.

MR BERGER: We'll come to the rest of the paragraph, but this statement, this affidavit you signed three days after the incident, so these events were very fresh in your mind at that stage.

MR POTGIETER: Yes, I can't remember.

MR BERGER: You see, the reason I'm going to suggest to you why you've now put yourself three quarters of an hour at the corner of King George and De Villiers is because, as you say, the rest of this paragraph wouldn't make any sense, but let me read it to you:

&#9;&#9;"Daar het toe weer geweervuur vanuit die gebou regoor die Shell House gekom in die rigting waar die Zoeloes hulle bevind."

MR POTGIETER: No.

MR BERGER: Now that "gebou" would be the building above Nando's wouldn't it?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER:&#9;"Een van die persone wat nog op die hoeke van Pleinstraat en King Georgestraat geskiet het vir die Zoeloes het na die deure van die Shell House beweeg ...",

this is now one of the ANC guards moves to the entrance of Shell House, the doors of Shell House, 

&#9;&#9;&#9;"... en met 'n haelgeweer na die gebou oorkant die Shell House waar die vuur vandaan kom, gevuur." 

This person then runs to the entrance of Shell House, takes a shotgun and shoots at someone shooting out of the Nando's building.

MR POTGIETER: I can't remember anything like that.

MR BERGER: You've had plenty of time to think how this - since I asked you these questions at the inquest, to think how this could possibly have come into your affidavit.

MR POTGIETER: I still don't have an answer.

MR BERGER: Sorry Sergeant, just a few more questions. Chairperson, I have no further questions to put to the witness, but my learned friend Miss Moroka has some questions, it relates to Lancet Hall, if she could just put these questions. Thank you Sergeant Potgieter.

MS MOROKA: Sergeant Potgieter, I want to ask you questions only in relation to the gate at the basement of Lancet Hall.

MR POTGIETER: Okay.

MS MOROKA: You do have your evidence there infront of you?

MR POTGIETER: Ja, I've got it here.

MS MOROKA: You were asked a question by Mr Berger at the inquest, you described how you forced open the door, is that correct? You then indicated that it opened - that you broke the hydraulic mechanism.

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MS MOROKA: And you were able - the door opened - I mean the gates opened only for a small space ...

MR POTGIETER: Correct.

MS MOROKA: That enabled you to go through?

MR POTGIETER: That is correct.

MS MOROKA: You then also further indicated that you don't know what happened to that gate thereafter.

MR POTGIETER: No, I don't know what happened to the gate.

MS MOROKA: You cannot say whether the gate - people were able to go in and out of - using their ...(indistinct) in and out of the gate?

MR POTGIETER: No I wouldn't be able to tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chair. Sergeant with reference to the scene as you found it when you moved around Shell House to look for your colleagues, do you still have any picture in your memory regarding where the injured and those who had died were positioned in relation to the block between De Villiers and Plein Streets?

MR POTGIETER: The only picture that I still have is that when I came around the corner there was a person with his back against the pillar and his ankle had been shot off, that's the picture that I have in my mind.

MR DORFLING: Do you have any idea of what the furthest was that a deceased or injured person had been lying down that block in the direction of King George and De Villiers Streets?

MR POTGIETER: Approximately 10 paces from the shop corners until King George Street.

MR DORFLING: In a southern direction?

MR POTGIETER: Yes that's correct.

MR DORFLING: Do you have any impressions of whether or not you noticed any weapons, be it firearms or traditional weapons?

MR POTGIETER: All that I saw was basically spears, corpses and shields, I didn't see any firearms.

MR DORFLING: Sergeant, I just want to ensure at which specific point in time you left the scene around Shell House, could you assist us in that relation, you were standing behind the guards?

MR POTGIETER: I stood behind the guards ...

MR DORFLING: You heard the shots?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR DORFLING: Could you tell us how far you could see before you moved in an eastern direction down Plein Street?

MR POTGIETER: As soon as the shots began to subside, when it was no longer that intense shooting, I went around.

MR DORFLING: At that stage, was there still any gunfire when you started running?

MR POTGIETER: I don't - I think so, it began to subside.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been questioned about whether you saw this gentleman called Mr von Eggedy at the scene.

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that you didn't see him?

MR POTGIETER: No I didn't see him.

CHAIRPERSON: What could be the reason why you didn't see him if he was in fact there, was it because there was too much of a crowd that blocked your view?

MR POTGIETER: There was a great number of people there and it would have been very easy for him to become lost among all those people if he was indeed there. However I didn't see him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any other reason why you may not have seen him besides the possibility that the crowd was too big?

MR POTGIETER: No, not as I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible that your own attention was not focused all the time there, and you were concerned about your own safety?

MR POTGIETER: I was concerned about my own safety when the man pressed the pistol against my chest, and that's the only time that I was really afraid for my own safety.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that must have given you some idea as to what might happen to you.

MR POTGIETER: Yes to me personally when the weapon was pressed against my chest.

CHAIRPERSON: And did that not possibly put you in a frame of mind where you were very concerned about your own safety as to what might happen?

MR POTGIETER: What could happen, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And your attention then was, if I may use the word "attention", was not on the scene all the time because you were a very worried man as to what might happen to you.

MR POTGIETER: I was watching them all from where I was standing at the back, and the entire scene was infront of my eyes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you yourself armed?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And anybody who saw you would see that you had an arm - that you had a gun in your hand?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, if they had seen me from affront.

CHAIRPERSON: And your colleagues, were they also armed?

MR POTGIETER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Everybody could see that they had guns in their hands?

MR POTGIETER: Yes, they should have been able to see that.

CHAIRPERSON: If any of them used their guns, would you have known?

MR POTGIETER: No, not at Shell House, none of us fired any shots.

CHAIRPERSON: You wouldn't have known?

MR POTGIETER: I would have known, I know that Sergeant van Reenen fired gas.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear gunshots without knowing where they came from?

MR POTGIETER: In the beginning before the gross(?) shooting began, yes, from a western direction in Plein Street, but we didn't know specifically where the shots were being fired from.

CHAIRPERSON: And later during that morning, did you not hear gunshots ...

MR POTGIETER: At which point?

CHAIRPERSON: Without knowing where they came from?

MR POTGIETER: No, just earlier that morning.

CHAIRPERSON: The time you went around Shell House to see whether you could help your friends, at that stage did you hear any gunshots?

MR POTGIETER: I can't recall.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Just hold on.

MR BERGER: Just one other question, in the same sort of vein, that was the evidence of this person with the AK47 who was shooting outside the shop that Mr Da Silva spoke about ...

MR POTGIETER: Yes?

MR BERGER: I just want to know if there was any reason that you can offer us why you didn't see that happen?

MR POTGIETER: No, I can't give you any reason, I didn't see it. It was in the street, in King George Street. There is no reason why I shouldn't have seen him.

MR BERGER: Okay, that was really the point I was more interested in, if there was - if it did happen, you surely would have seen it?

MR POTGIETER: That's correct.

MR BERGER: Thanks.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman, with your leave there's one aspect I omitted. Looking at the statement again, specifically paragraph 7, with your permission, may I just ask the witness about it?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may.

MR DORFLING: Sergeant I want to refer you specifically to paragraph 7 of your affidavit on page 14 of Exhibit E, the person with the AK47 to whom you are referring, you described his clothing in the final sentence of paragraph 7, you said he was wearing a white bulletproof jacket, do you confirm that?

MR POTGIETER: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thanks very much you are excused.

MR POTGIETER: Thanks.

WITNESS EXCUSED

MR DORFLING: Mr Chairman with your leave may I ask for a very short adjournment, I would just like to discuss something with my colleagues who are appearing on behalf of the objectors before we call our next witness.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) 

MR DORFLING: Certainly not Mr Chairman.]

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

MR DORFLING: Thank you Mr Chairman, as it would appear from the index of the list of witnesses to possibly give evidence on behalf of the objectors, on whose behalf I appear, I would like at this point in time to indicate as far witnesses no 3, 5 and 6 are concerned, that we do not intend calling these witnesses. Mr Chairman may I just with regard to the motivation thereof, on the 24th of June we were requested to motivate the reason for witnesses being subpoenaed by the Committee, and in response thereto on the 25th of June we replied inter alia in paragraph 7 of the letter:

&#9;&#9;"Although we requested a number of witnesses to be subpoenaed, we must stress that they all give a specific interpretation of what transpired. They furthermore give a perspective from different vantage points and different stages of the incident. We do not intend to duplicate any of the evidence and therefore anticipate that we would only call as many witnesses as would contribute to a considered decision by the Amnesty Committee."

&#9;That is the position with regard to those three witnesses, hence us having decided not to call witnesses no 3, 5 and 6. That leaves only two witnesses remaining on the list Mr Chair. As far as Mr Ralph von Eggedy is concerned, we've been trying desperately to locate him, we've even asked Ms Patel to assist us, we've asked the Attorney-General's staff, the Investigating Officer of the Shell House inquest matter to assist us. Up to this stage we are not able to locate Mr von Eggedy. As you would no doubt see from the judgment of Mr Justice Nugent, it is an important witness. We were trying to get hold of him, we tried all avenues but without success at this point in time. He's therefore at this point in time not available as yet. The last ...(intervention) 

JUDGE NGCOBO: Wasn't there some kind of an agreement in regard to his evidence?

MR DORFLING: With regard to the present proceedings Mr Justice Ngcobo?

JUDGE NGCOBO: Yes.

MR DORFLING: I'm not sure that there was any specific agreement which - I'm not sure.

CHAIRPERSON: It's not some kind of an understanding that his evidence at the inquest would go in by consent?

MR BIZOS: ...(inaudible) argument in which the evidence of Mr von Eggedy was praised and we said we accept that and second it, and Mr von Eggedy's evidence stands as whatever it says it says.

JUDGE NGCOBO: That leaves us with the last one, Mhlaba.

MR DORFLING: Indeed so, at the adjournment of the last proceedings I already indicated that this witness will be called. I had by agreement on that date agreed with the witness to come and consult with me last week, he didn't arrive. Somebody's trying to locate him, he's supposed to be residing at Room 7E Mansfield Hostel. We haven't been able to locate him, I can't advance any reason for his non-attendance of the meeting last week. I haven't been able to get in touch with him. I've got two gentlemen actually trying to locate Mr Mhlaba. His statement is contained in pages 37 and 38 of Exhibit E. I would therefore request some indulgence to try and locate this witness. He is indeed one of the marchers, Mr Chair, I've insisted on the gentlemen looking for him, to try and have Mr Mhlaba available tomorrow morning. I cannot give any assurances, it is difficult to locate him, there's no way of contacting him but in person, and we're having difficulty to locate him.

MS KHAMPEPE: Is he still residing at the address you just mentioned Mr Dorfling, to your knowledge?

MR DORFLING: That was the indication I had from the witness the last time when we adjourned here.

MR TIPP : Mr Chairman may we just raise the position of now Inspector van Reenen, Sergeant Gollach and Sergeant van Greenen. Now obviously we've never consulted with any of those gentlemen. Their evidence falls into a different category from that of Mr von Eggedy because there are matters in dispute in respect of their evidence, which is not the position of Mr von Eggedy. Now it's not our wish to make work for the Committee or to delay the proceedings, all of those persons are present here Mr Chairman. We don't want to call them as our witnesses, if they had to come we'd prefer to cross-examine them obviously, but if there is agreement between ourselves and our learned friends that one may have - make reference to what they have said and concessions that have been made by them for the purpose of argument before the Committee, then we would have no difficulty in leaving the position as it is.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) that are here.

MR TIPP: No Mr Chairman, sorry, I didn't make myself clear, in the course of their examination in the inquest, because again, they were fully examined by all sides. 

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR TIPP: So really on the same - in the equivalent of that of Mr von Eggedy, but with the understanding that unlike Mr von Eggedy, there are matters in dispute in respect of what they've said.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DORFLING: Mr Chair, if I may just indicate, there are definitely certain points in dispute as between the applicants and the objectors with regard to that evidence, there has been certain findings made in this regard by Mr Justice Newgent and you've rightly indicated, we're not re-visiting the Shell House inquest, so only in as far as the aspects are common cause, can this be regarded by this Committee. Without this Committee having seen these witnesses and having had regard to the points in dispute, I think what we would be doing is to re-visit the Shell House inquest judgement instead of having our own decision or this Committee's own decision on it.

CHAIRPERSON: Well a great deal of our time has been taken up in visiting the inquest proceedings, isn't it. Lengthy cross-examination of witnesses from both sides relating to what they said during the

