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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;&#9;4.12.96&#9;&#9;MOUTSE

CASE NUMBER:&#9;JB02204&#9;&#9;NAME: RICHARD MAGAU NTULI

CHAIRPERSON: Welcome Magau. Just relax. I will hand you over to Wynand.

RICHARD MAGAU NTULI (sworn states)

MR MANTHATA: Magau, can you tell us what happened to you the day you were abducted, the kind of torture, assault that you were subjected to please. Over to you.

MR NTULI: Mr Chair, I remember very well on the 12th June 1986 I was at home. There came a certain man by the name of Petrus Mahlangu. In fact it is a business person. He said to us, we were two, that it is getting to Pretoria so therefore has suspected a lot of cars and his suspicions was Mbokoto. He told us that he resides at Tweefontein Erf. He gave us his kombi to go and see whether it is true what has said. Fortunately enough we met with a lot of cars. If my memory still serves me well I think we were about to eight. Therefore we met with those cars at Tweefontein E. Don't remember what I have said, I said on the 12th June 1986 and therefore those (indistinct) stopped us and then the questions they asked us they said they wanted the comrades who burnt down their shops. We said we don't know nothing about that because we said we want to negotiate with them. They failed. They caught us, particularly some of us escaped but unfortunately enough to me they caught me and then they asked me about the leaders. I responded to them that I don't know nothing

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about the leaders and then they said they are abducting me, they are going with me, I am going to show them the leaders and they after that I must bring back their shops, everything. And then they started to beat me like a wild animal, busy beating me and then in turn they were, what can I say, they were holding all types of weapons that even others maybe never been into existence in this world, held by the Mbokoto. Mbokoto took a litre, they gave me, I drank it. They said to me I must drink that particular litre of petrol, they want to set me alight or to burn me down. I said what have I done. They said you know. There were many, even at that time I don't know if it was the Mbokoto Youth League or was Mbokoto what, something. Don't know what was their strategy. They beat me, I fell down. There came two bakkies, there were some tyres. They poured petrol and then at that time I was already laying down bleeding. My question I said are you really killing me. They said yes boy we kill you today because we caught you. Therefore a certain man, I can't remember him very clearly facially, he was holding a beitel. He chopped me here, he chopped me here, he broke my right leg and then one of them took out his firearm and he pointed at me. Somebody stopped him, said no don't kill him we want to burn him. It was a surprise to me because I didn't know what I had done because I said it is the wrong idea that you want I must adopt it because I am not following your procedure. That is just before I am youth, then you get at me that maybe I have done one, two, three and that is an implication. Therefore I think it was past nine to ten that time, I was busy lying down, people were going up and down screaming and then two cars came and then they said to me we are coming back to

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pick you up. We were two. I was with my colleague, that is Sam something Matimunya. Stays at Vlaklaagte number 1. And therefore even himself was already assaulted, tortured, done everything the way Mbokoto was brutal minded against to the members of our society. Then I said to him let us escape because on Mbokoto's return we are going to be abducted or captured or kidnapped. Then we started crawling because we could not walk on our own. We were assaulted, we were injured, we went to another. So that everyone should understand what I am presenting here. We entered into one yard. When we arrived there we were badly injured. They put us under dirty clothes. Mbokoto was busy. When they came back they asked where are these boys. At that time we were hiding. We were crying, we were assaulted, blood was all over. We stayed there until a kombi came there collecting people who were injured and people who were standing outside they said some of the boys are in this yard and they came there, they picked us up like a small child. We were put inside that kombi. I don't remember the colour of the kombi, we were taken to Kalafong Hospital in Pretoria. My leg was broken, I was waiting to be plastered, to be stitched. I can't remember the days but I think three, four, five days. Members of the committee came there to see us in hospital. They wanted to see us when we came out of the hospital. They were worried about our safety. We asked them what was happening here that we were assaulted like this. That is the time when we were recovering from the injuries. We were unconscious when we came there. They said to us Mbokoto assaulted us. They said Majozi was there. Piet Ntuli was there. They called all their names because Mbokoto was everywhere. I can't furnish their names because

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I was not a member of Mbokoto. 

CHAIRPERSON: May you tell us the way you were assaulted then thereafter let's stop there. We should not entertain the part of saying what people told you. When you arrived at the hospital people came to take you out of the hospital and took you to a place of safety. 

MR NTULI: I don't know, Mr Chairman. Sorry, is it a question or is it a follow statement? 

CHAIRPERSON: I am trying to show you that we have ended up where you were safe, you were out of the hands of Mbokoto.

MR NTULI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then that is the end because that is the issue we were interested in because in the hands of Mbokoto what did they do with you. So give us an opportunity to ask questions. You were speaking about Petrus Mahlangu who lent you a van. Did I hear you well?

MR NTULI: He didn't lend us a van, he gave us a kombi.

CHAIRPERSON: What did he want you to do with the kombi?

MR NTULI: He told us that he is going to Pretoria therefore he is leaving the car with us. Then he suspected that a group of cars were responsible for burning his shop and then he suspected that those are Mbokotos. Then he told us about his appointment because he was a business person. Maybe it was a business commitment. 

CHAIRPERSON: He left you so that you should take care of his shop. 

MR NTULI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you meet Mbokoto or where did you meet Mbokoto, where you negotiated with them, because you said you wanted to negotiate with Mbokoto. 

MR NTULI: We met these people at Tweefontein E. They were

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travelling with their cars. 

CHAIRPERSON: Did you move from where this man has met you to the place where you me these...

MR NTULI: Yes, this guy gave us his car at the GG, section GG where we were saying. Then we moved to where we met Mbokoto. 

CHAIRPERSON: When you met Mbokoto were you trying to negotiate with them or did you meet them by accident?

MR NTULI: We met them accidentally, sir. 

CHAIRPERSON: That is where they started to abduct you and made you drink petrol.

MR NTULI: Yes, that is true. 

MR ALLY: Mr Ntuli, when these events took place that you are describing, you were 22 years old. 21, 22 years old.

MR NTULI: I think it is 22.

MR ALLY: And were you at school at the time?

MR NTULI: No.

MR ALLY: You were not. What were you doing at the time?

MR NTULI: No, I was just unemployed. 

MR ALLY: Did you consider yourself a comrade?

MR NTULI: Pardon?

MR ALLY: Did you see yourself as part of the comrades. Did you consider yourself a comrade?

MR NTULI: Mr Chair, these questions sometimes it must be procedural because I can't understand very clear if you are referring to comrade meaning somebody who is destroying or meaning somebody who is a close friend to you, sharing ideas then I think then Mr Chair I will respond on that. 

MR ALLY: Mr Ntuli you can respond any which way you want. Any which way you feel is appropriate because in your statement you actually speak about Mbokoto and you speak

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about yourself as opposing Mbokoto and wanting to fight Mbokoto. And the reason I ask the question is because the way this conflict has been posed is that on the one side of the conflict there were the comrades who were fighting against Mbokoto and its ideas, on the other side was Mbokoto who were fighting against the comrades and there were raids and abductions and people being tortured. So what I was trying to get at is in this conflict did you see yourself as on one side of this conflict, did you see yourself of involved in this conflict in any particular way as part of one of the groups or organisations involved in this conflict?

MR NTULI: Thanks Mr Chair. Now I can respond. We were just an ordinary committee that we understand fundamentally that human right violation it is very much unconstitutional and therefore the way Mbokoto did against ourself it was absolutely rotten so therefore that particular committee was not against the properties of Mbokoto because the property has done nothing to the community at large but we said what is wrong with Mbokoto because we said if we can sit down with it and discuss and get our differences I think at the end of the day there will be agreement between the community and that particular brutal committee or brutal group. 

MR ALLY: Is it true, Mr Ntuli, is it true though that property of people who were considered to be members of Mbokoto was destroyed, that businesses of Mbokoto members were burned, that some people who were believed to be Mbokoto were necklaced? Were those things happening? 

MR NTULI: Mbokoto implemented a certain strategy wherein even Mbokoto burned themself with their businesses and then in turn accusing the youth that the youth was busy

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destroying their properties. That is their strategy that they used in those particular years. 

MR ALLY: I just want to understand very clearly what you are saying now. You are saying that Mbokoto burnt their own properties. Are you saying that Mbokoto necklaced themselves and that they did this to implicate the comrades and the y youth? Is that what you are actually saying, that Mbokoto did all of these things to themselves?

MR NTULI: Mr Chair, I think to say that Mbokoto has been necklaced what has happened against Mbokoto I don't know nothing. So it is upon their tremendous ranks to think that who necklaced them but myself or over my side I don't know nothing. 

MR ALLY: The reason that I am asking this question and I think that the audience also needs to understand this very, very clearly, that one of the main tasks of the Truth Commission in these hearings is to try and understand the conflicts that took place in the past. All of us have political positions, political sympathies, we all have our own political views. Within the Commission though it is important for us to try and get at the nature of the conflict without taking sides on the nature of the political issues involved. That is a personal and a private matter for individuals. Within the Commission it is necessary for us to understand this conflict in all its aspects from all sides, and that is the reason that I was asking you those questions. Not in an attempt to say which political position was right and which political position was wrong. But to try and get as accurate a picture of what was happening as possible. Now we have heard testimony that people who were perceived to be members of Mbokoto yesterday

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and the day before speak about property being destroyed, speak about people being necklaced and implicate youth and implicate comrades in those activities. Now you spoke about yourself as being involved in a committee as showing some understanding of the conflict. Now if you don't know anything about who was doing that to Mbokoto then that is accepted. You obviously can only answer on what you know about it. But I asked you a question very directly about the Mbokoto necklacing and the Mbokoto destruction of property and you said to me that in your understanding it was Mbokoto itself who was doing that. Now I want to come back to that and I want to know whether that is your response or is your response that you don't know who was doing those things to Mbokoto?

MR NTULI: Yes. Everything that maybe has been already presented by Mbokoto claiming those necklacing system, everything that is claimed here, I don't know nothing up to so far about that type of an incident but as I think I have already made a statement that that is the truth as has been written behind myself saying truth, that is the road to reconciliation. I think I cannot respond to any questions which may be it will be some kind of incriminating questions remained as incriminating answers to me. 

MR ALLY: Thank you, we respect your right not to answer certain questions. Thank you.

MR MALAN: Mr Ntuli, may I just put to you a few things. I must tell you that the Act says we must be victim friendly in conducting these hearings. In other words we accept that the witnesses are bona fide, that they are telling things the way they see it. But it is very difficult if the Commissioners and the audience are being played with in the

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sense that you responded to some of the questions where you later came back to Mr Ally saying that you are not going to respond to questions that may incriminate yourself. To that extent we may seek an opportunity to do that in camera as we have talked earlier in the week with another witness to get that information and to see whether you would help us. But I want to point out to you that you said in your statement that you were a member of the UDF. You said in your statement that your organisation's programme of action was to fight the Mbokoto because they were for independence and I quote you again, you say in your statement that they tortured you because they wanted to know who burnt their properties. You see you said that in the statement but now you tell us something different, you tell us that they burnt their own properties. So when they asked you did you tell them you burn your own properties? I am putting this to you to say to you please, I mean make our life easier. If you can't give us information in public say so and we can get it in camera. But don't play with us, it is not making it easy for us. Would you like to say anything further on this issue or shall we leave it there?

MR NTULI: No, I can continue .... (nothing further on tape).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Magau. Did you understand what was being said, Mr Ntuli? Did you understand what Mr Wynand was saying to you? 

MR NTULI: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Joyce will ask you a question.

MS SEROKE: Mr Magau, I will speak in Zulu, I hope you don't mind. The questions are based on a statement which says as a member of the UDF we were fighting against Mbokoto because

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Mbokoto was for independence. So he is asking a question, the manner in which you operated, he asked those people whose shops were being burnt down and necklaced, you said they were the people who burnt their own houses. 

MR NTULI: We wanted to ask those because the people were burning their own shops. 

MS SEROKE: Can you continue how they used to burn their own shops, if that is possible, or you want to tell us somewhere what your objectives were.

MR NTULI: When I gave my statement they channelled us that we should give this kind of statement. They didn't want us to give them a long statement, they wanted to make a short statement. That is how we gave our statements. It was not the first time to give our statements before the TRC. Some few years back we gave some statements. So when the UDF was formed, when the commissioner asked me, Commissioner Wynand Malan, said we don't want which political affiliation does one belong to. 

CHAIRPERSON: I wanted to know as whether did they make it to give you a short statement. You wanted to make a longer statement, that is why we said to you you may extend your statement by being given a chance to be heard in camera. That is what we want to know as to whether you want to appear in camera when we adjourn here. 

MR NTULI: Mr Chairperson I understand but when I go and make another statement it might differ with my testimony. 

CHAIRPERSON: Magau we thank you. We understand the way you were assaulted, they made you to drink petrol and wanted to set you alight. Those are terrible things and we support you. We are happy that you were not killed and then you had strength to know that that was wrong and again that you are able to talk about it outside. We thank you. 

