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ON RESUMPTION: 30TH NOVEMBER 1999 - DAY 2
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 ON RESUMPTION: 30TH NOVEMBER 1999 - DAY 2

CHAIRPERSON: ... apologise for the late start, the reason for the late start was that the applicant was late in arriving. ... which we were busy with yesterday, and you will recall that at the end of the proceedings yesterday, Mr Snyman had concluded leading the applicant in his evidence and now we've reached the stage where questions will be put to the applicant by Ms Jelal, who is representing various victims in this matter. Thank you.

&#9;Mr Ngcobo, I remind you that you're still under your former oath that you took yesterday.

XHAWULANI THULASIZWE NGCOBO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS JELAL: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Sir, in paragraph 5 - if the Committee will bear with me, of the bundle and more specifically page 21, you say that you received training. When did you receive this training and what sort of training was it?

MR NGCOBO: I think it was either 1989 or 1990, and we were trained at Amatekulu, near Ulundi.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, the other leg to the question was what sort of training was it, what were you trained in?

MR NGCOBO: We were trained in the use of firearms, shotguns and .38 revolvers.

MS JELAL: Who were you trained by, Sir?

MR NGCOBO: There was Capt Hlengwa, who was a member of the IFP.

MS JELAL: I now refer you to ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed, for how long did this training last?

MR NGCOBO: If I'm not mistaken it was for about a week.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just on that. You say "we" were trained, who is "we"?

MR NGCOBO: There were many members from different branches in the Mpumalanga area.

ADV SANDI: Were you given any instructions when you finished that training, as to what you were going to do with the skills you have acquired in the training?

MR NGCOBO: At that time our training was for the purpose that we're going to be reservists for the KwaZulu Police and also for the fact that we were being trained to protect ourselves because of the political situation.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Ms Jelal.

MS JELAL: Were all of you who received this training IFP members?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MS JELAL: Sir, in your evidence-in-chief yesterday you said that two men were killed in 1987 and that you had information that Cebo Majola was involved in these killings, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: That is correct.

MS JELAL: Do you know who these two men that were killed were, do you know their identities?

MR NGCOBO: It was Spatimandla Ngcobo and Sfwana Ngcobo, both my relatives.

MS JELAL: How were these people related to you?

MR NGCOBO: Spatimandla was my father and the other one was his younger brother.

MS JELAL: Sir, my instructions are that there was actually faction fighting in this area and your father died during a faction fight, not during any political - at any point in the political upheaval. What do you have to say to that?

MR NGCOBO: What I know is that it was because of political reasons.

MS JELAL: How did you come to the conclusion that it was politically motivated?

MR NGCOBO: Both these two people were members of the IFP.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but if there's faction fighting and people who get killed in the faction fighting, happened to be a supporter of a political party, that doesn't mean that there wasn't faction fighting. We know from our experience in hearing matters, particularly in this Province, that many, many, many people were either because they wanted to be or merely because they lived in a certain area, supported a particular political party or movement, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of those people being involved in non-political violence and being involved in clan violence or faction fighting. Is the only reason you think it was political is because your father and his younger brother were IFP members?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, that is the only reason.

MS JELAL: Sir, is it also correct that there were two tribes living at the Table Mountain area, namely the KwaZemba and Mbambangalo tribes?

MR NGCOBO: Please repeat the other name.

MS JELAL: The KwaZemba and .

MR NGCOBO: I know of the Kwanyavu district.

MS JELAL: No Sir, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal, if you'll take a look at page 33 of the papers, paragraph 5, are these different or are they the same?

MS JELAL: They're the same.

&#9;Okay Sir, did these two tribes exist in the Table Mountain area at this point in time between 1990 and 1992?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, that is correct.

MS JELAL: And was there not faction fighting amongst these two tribes at the same period of time?

MR NGCOBO: Everything that happened in the area I knew to be politically motivated.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you aware of any violence involving tribal matters or clan matters? - in that area.

MR NGCOBO: No, I didn't know that.

MR MALAN: Of which of these tribes are you a member, are you a member of any of them and if so, which one?

MR NGCOBO: I was under the Kwanyavu district.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but were you a member of either the KwaZemba or the Mbambangalo tribes, either of those?

MR NGCOBO: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't get the interpretation.

MR NGCOBO: There were some of our comrades from the Mpangalo, people such as Mr Bernard Mkhize.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but yourself, were you a member of either the KwaZemba or Mbambangalo tribes? That's the question that Mr Malan has asked you. You personally, if not, which tribe did you belong to?

MR NGCOBO: I was from the Kwanyavu district.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but which tribe is that? We don't come from here, we don't know if you come from a district what tribe you belong to. What tribe did you belong to?

MR NGCOBO: I was under the Kwanyavu, I was not under either the KwaZemba or Mbambangalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;So further to that my instructions are that your father was killed during a faction fight between the Zimo family and your family, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: No, it wasn't the Zimo family, it wasn't only the Zimo family, it was Zimo and other families as well.

MS JELAL: Sir, did you know the identity of the other families that you maintained were involved in this?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I do know them.

MS JELAL: Who were they?

MR NGCOBO: The Gumede family, the Hlengwa, the Ntuli and Ngeti and also the Ngcobo.

MS JELAL: Sir, then how is it that you didn't attack all of these people, that you heard a rumour that Majola was involved in this and you went after him and killed him?

MR NGCOBO: At that time they were arrested, the others who did this.

MS JELAL: What were they arrested for, do you know?

MR NGCOBO: Because of the fights since my father was killed.

MS JELAL: Were these political fights that we're talking about?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, according to my knowledge it was.

MS JELAL: Sir, why did you wait approximately three years in order to retaliate or kill the person that you thought was responsible for your father's death? Three years is a long time.

MR NGCOBO: At the time I was still in school.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ngcobo, where did you go to school?

MR NGCOBO: My primary school.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me just say, during 1987, where were you at school?

MR NGCOBO: Qwanobala Secondary School.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that in the area, the same area where your father's house was, the Table Mountain area?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MS JELAL: Thank you. Were you also in school in 1988/89 and 1990?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MS JELAL: So how did you get time off to go and take this training that you maintain you took?

MR NGCOBO: I was trained in 1991 ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: You said earlier you were trained in 1989 or '90 maybe.

MR NGCOBO: I am not certain of the year because there was a year which I didn't attend school.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, are you saying Mr Ngcobo, just to get this straight, that you were at school and then for one year you weren't at school and then after that you went back to school? So you had a year break in your schooling, is that what you say? Because you said "I'm not certain because I was away from school for a year". Did you finish school when you got training or after training did you go back to school, what is the situation?

MR NGCOBO: After my training I didn't go back to school because even in 1992, I was not in school, we also moved from that area to another area.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Thank you.&#9;

&#9;Sir, throughout your evidence-in-chief we heard the name Bukani Ngcobo mentioned, apparently he was the person who gave you information, inside information relating to the events or the activities of the ANC, where is Bukani presently?

MR NGCOBO: I don't know if he's here, but if he's not in this hall it means he is at his home.

MS JELAL: Sir, we also heard mention of the name Simphiwe Ntombela, was he related to Twalise Ntombela?

MR NGCOBO: His son.

MS JELAL: Thank you. Now if we look at the murders in sequence, with regards to Cebo Majola, did you know what position he held in the ANC, if any?

MR NGCOBO: I don't know him holding any position, all I know is that he was a supporter of the ANC.

MS JELAL: Did you know of being involved in any political activities as such?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MS JELAL: What activities were these and when did they take place?

MR NGCOBO: As I have already explained in my evidence-in-chief there were people who were ANC members and also they were active and he harboured them in his home and gave them weapons.

MS JELAL: Sir in your evidence-in-chief then as well you said that the only thing that separated your house from Mr Majola's house was one school, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, that's correct.

MS JELAL: So can we then say that you knew exactly what was going on in his house since you were practically living close together?

MR NGCOBO: No, I couldn't because it was behind this school and it is not a level area.

MS JELAL: So in essence Sir, you had no direct information or anything that you yourself obtained to prove to yourself that Mr Majola was an ANC supporter, is that not correct?

MR NGCOBO: No, I didn't.

MS JELAL: Okay. If we go on Sir, you said that during the period 1990 to 1992, many IFP supporters in the Table Mountain area were killed, were there any prominent IFP members that were killed at this point in time and can you please give us the names of these members?

MR NGCOBO: Mr Kanyile was from Zimangwene and Mr Mtolo also he's from Zimangwene and Moosa Madlala, he was from Kanyezeni.

MS JELAL: Did you have any proof that these murders were actually politically motivated?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MS JELAL: What proof was this?

MR NGCOBO: Because there were fights between the ANC and IFP.

ADV SANDI: Do you know what day of the week these killings had taken place?

MR NGCOBO: No, I wouldn't be able to remember the days.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal, if I may just interpose.

&#9;That area, the area that we're talking about, would you say it was predominantly IFP or was it predominantly ANC or was it equally mixed between the two movements?

MR NGCOBO: It was equal.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Thank you.

&#9;Sir, at any point did you go after the other people that you mentioned were responsible for the killing of your father and the other Ngcobo?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MS JELAL: Who did you go after and when was this?

MR NGCOBO: The families which I've already mentioned.

MS JELAL: Did you kill any of them?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MS JELAL: Who specific did you kill?

MR NGCOBO: I've mentioned Mr Majola and Simiso and Nzuza, Nduleni and Ngcobo and also Ngoma Shelembe and Dabu Ngoma.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ngcobo, are you saying that all these people you've mentioned, that is - that they all took part in the killing of your father and that was the reason why you killed them?

MR NGCOBO: No, it wasn't that reason, it was because of the political violence because the people who killed my father were arrested at the time.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question asked by Ms Jelal - correct me if I'm wrong please, Ms Jelal, the question as I understood it was, did you go after the people who killed your father, other than Cebo Majola, we know about him, but did you kill any of the other people who were involved in the attack upon your father's house when your father was killed, the actual people involved in the attack?

MR NGCOBO: We tried to attack the Zimo family but we were not successful because we would realise that we could not enter his kraal.

MS JELAL: Sir, is it correct that most of these killings that you're claiming amnesty for, or applying for amnesty for, occurred over weekends, that being from the Friday to the Sunday?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, if I do remember very well they occurred weekends.

MS JELAL: Why specifically on weekends, it seems rather strange, doesn't it?

MR NGCOBO: I will say it was just a coincidence.

MS JELAL: So did you and your accomplices, being Simphiwe Ntombela, Sikosipho Ndunga and Khanyise Ndlovu, all come together over weekends or were you always together?

MR NGCOBO: Most of the time we were together.

MS JELAL: Can you offer the Committee any explanation then as to why you only carried out these activities over weekends, why did you save them for that specific period of time?

MR NGCOBO: I wouldn't be able to explain that, there was no reason at all. What I can say is that it was just a coincidence.

MS JELAL: Okay. If you look at the killing of Simiso Bhengu, the first question that I would put to you relating to that incident is, you said in your evidence-in-chief that your girlfriend, Mabongi, was approached by Mr Bhengu and he told her that you asked for her to go with him and she refused and that was the reason why you were angry, and over and above that that Bhengu on other occasions shot at you. Is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, it is correct.

MS JELAL: So then how is it that on page 24 of the bundle, I refer specifically to paragraph 2.2, the reasons that you submit in your affidavit for killing Mr Bhengu, was that he had attempted to attack and destroy your house, with no success, why is there a change in the reasons now?

MR NGCOBO: I mentioned both of them.

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned both of what?

MR NGCOBO: Both of the reasons.

CHAIRPERSON: Well are you saying that Simiso Bhengu tried to attack and destroy your house?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, they tried to attack and also they tried to attack us when we were in the vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Ms Jelal.

MS JELAL: Sir, I put it to you that you said nothing of the sort, all you did say was that - you mentioned the case of Mabongi, where Mr Bhengu approached Mabongi and then you also said that you were shot at but you managed to escape unharmed. You further went on to say that you were travelling in a vehicle and the vehicle was shot at, so you went home to get guns, but in your evidence-in-chief when you were referring to the reasons for killing Mr Bhengu, you said nothing about the attempt to attack and destroy your house. Now I find this rather strange, if you remember so well exactly what occurred, you didn't mention it then. So which is the true version, what was the reason for killing Mr Bhengu?

MR NGCOBO: I have already mentioned that there were many incidences which occurred.

MS JELAL: Okay, so we will accept that there's a discrepancy in your written statement and what you verbally said. I'll go onto the next question. How many times was your girlfriend, Mabongi, approached and asked to leave with other people, did this just happen once or did it happen more than once?

MR NGCOBO: If I remember very well it was two times.

MS JELAL: Sir, you went further to state that at a subsequent time Simiso and Ngcobo shot at you, Sir I can't understand why your oral version, the evidence that you gave in-chief was so longwinded, yet the reasons that you put down in your affidavit were all in short form, it gave a little bit of information, yet you took approximately four pages to talk about the Zimo murder in detail, yet you knew that it was something that you could not claim amnesty for because it was after the cut-off date. Why did you not explain these ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We don't know that when he made the statement that he knew about the cut-off date, but we do know that - because he was in prison serving time for the Zimo murder. Just if you can perhaps ask him if at the time that he filled it in, whether he knew that he could apply for amnesty. We know that he now knows that he can't apply for amnesty in respect of the Zimo murders, but at the time, perhaps you should put that question first.

MS JELAL: Thank you.

&#9;Sir, at the time of making application for amnesty, did you know that you could not make application for the Zimo murders because it was outside the cut-off date which was in 1994?

MR NGCOBO: I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what are you saying, Mr Ngcobo? When you filled in the form which we have before us, your application form where you made application for amnesty, which appears on page 2 and then there's another one, on page 10 you make application for the murder of Ncamazile Zimo and Zwili Zimo, do you see that? Now when you made that application, were you not expecting that your application in respect of the murders of the Zimos, would be considered by the Amnesty Committee? Otherwise why put it there?

MR NGCOBO: Initially when I filled in the application form I didn't know that I wasn't supposed to put it on my application, after I've put my application I was told that I couldn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Sir, then did you make the affidavit at the same time that you filled in the application form? I'm talking specifically about the affidavit that appears on page 21 of the bundle. Did you make it simultaneously with your application?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Jelal, that one that appears on page 21, seems to be not an affidavit but just a statement.

MS JELAL: I stand corrected.

CHAIRPERSON: The affidavit is on page 24, which was clearly made not at the same time as the application because it's dated the 18th of September 1999, which is just two months ago. So if you can just perhaps rephrase your question about the statement.

MS JELAL: I stand corrected, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;I refer to your statement made from page 21 to 23 of the bundle, was this done together with the application?

MR MALAN: That statement seems to be a translation of the statement which appears on page 16.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS JELAL: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: ...(indistinct) dated the 12th of August '97, which is after the last date for application for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you take a look Mr Ngcobo, if we just clear this up, you've got the application form and then there's a letter written by yourself that appears on page 16 and it goes through to page 20, now the question - and it would seem that the translation of that letter is from pages 21 to 23, now what Ms Jelal is asking you is, when you filled in your application form, did you at the same time write this letter, if not, when was this letter written in relation to you signing the application form? It's page 16.

MR NGCOBO: The statement was written on the 12th of August 1997.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was your application form written, completed?

MR NGCOBO: I don't remember, but TRC Investigators came to me in the prison, Pietermaritzburg Prison.

CHAIRPERSON: So the letter was written at a different time from when the application form was signed. Was it written after the application form?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, it is so.

MS JELAL: Did you write the letter after you gained knowledge of the fact that you could not apply for amnesty in that matter?

MR NGCOBO: Before the knowledge.

MS JELAL: So why did you not go into detail to explain - in your statements regarding the death of each one of the people that you are claiming amnesty for, why did you not give full details regarding exactly what occurred and the reasons behind the murders?

MR NGCOBO: You mean when I was writing my statement?

CHAIRPERSON: What Ms Jelal is getting at, Mr Ngcobo, is in this letter you've gone into a lot of detail relating to the, or gone into a fair amount of detail relating to the death of the Zimos, yet you give in your application and subsequent, in the subsequent affidavit on page 24, very little information relating to the deaths of Messrs Majola, Bhengu, Nduleni, Nzuza, Shelembe, Ngcobo and Mkhize, you just give a couple of sentences in respect of each of those, but you pay more attention to the killing of Zimos, and Ms Jelal wants to know why is that so.

MR NGCOBO: When they arrived they investigated, they said I can just highlight and I will give more details when I appear before the Committee.

MS JELAL: So what type of relation did you have with your superiors, that being Mr Ntombela, Bongani Mpetha(?) and ...(indistinct) Mkhize?

MR NGCOBO: There was no specific relationship except that we were in one organisation or we belonged in one organisation.

MS JELAL: Right. And we're still looking at the incident where Mr Bhengu was killed. You said here that instructions were given to you by the same three people, Mpetha, Mkhize and Ntombela, to act against Mr Bhengu for him going to your girlfriend's house, Mabongi's house, why would they take such a personal interest in something that was happening to you, it was your personal matter?

MR NGCOBO: They did so because we belonged to one organisation.

MS JELAL: Okay. If we look at the killings of Shorty Nduleni, Bhekinzoni Nzuza, Mr Shelembe and Mr Ngcobo, which you put down as one incident, on page 24, paragraph 2.3, but yesterday you explained that they were actually different incidences. Here again these murders occurred on a Sunday, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: The killing of Nduleni, Nzuza and Ngcobo happened in one day.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that a Sunday?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, if I remember I think it was on a Sunday. 

...(end of side A of tape) 

MS JELAL: .... So it was a question of identification of yourself that was involved ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think what he said was that they were on their way to attack the Mlambo house or something like that and they aborted that attack because they saw soldiers around and then when they were coming back they came across these three gentlemen and that's when the shooting took place. And it was mentioned, one of the reasons was because identification, fear of being identified.

MS JELAL: But you hadn't - as the Chairperson has now appraised the Committee of what you said yesterday, you hadn't committed any acts, so how would them identifying you actually prejudice you?

MR NGCOBO: Since we were instructed to go and attack.

CHAIRPERSON: But those people who you shot, they didn't know that you were going or coming from an attack.

MR NGCOBO: In that area it was a no-go area for IFP, therefore we knew on that night that everyone we come across was ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so - sorry, just while you're on this point, are you saying Mr Ngcobo, that in that area - you said earlier that there was an equal mix between IFP supporters and ANC supporters in that area, correct me if I'm wrong, my impression was from what you said, was that the people were, be they ANC on what you say, or IFP, they were all living in the same area, there was no predominance of one political movement over the other. Are you now saying that there were areas which were no-go areas within that area, where if you were IFP, you knew that you would in a problem if you went to that specific place in the area because it was ANC, is that what you're saying?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the area where Cebo Majola lived and with you just on the other side of the school, was that a no-go area for either him or for you?

MR NGCOBO: When Majola was killed we were staying there, we moved after the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: How big is this Kwanyavu area?

MR NGCOBO: I wouldn't be able to estimate but it is a big area.

ADV SANDI: Is this place divided into sections with names, specific names for each section?

MR NGCOBO: There are different names for different areas, there's Sinyamene, XweXweni(?), Kubebuz and there's another district I've forgotten, where Mr Ndlovu was residing.

MS JELAL: Which of these areas were ANC and which were IFP?

MR NGCOBO: If I remember very well we were residing at Nkanyezi and Nkanyezi was predominantly ANC, that's why we moved to the IFP area and it was mixed in these areas, there were ANC and IFP as well.

MS JELAL: Sir, we've ascertained from you now that the killing of Shorty Nduleni, Bhekinzoni Nzuza and Manglethu Ngcobo took place on one day.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shelembe, Ngcobo was on a different ... was he, sorry.

MS JELAL: Right. 

&#9;We've ascertained Sir, that those three murders took place on one day. My instructions are that Mr Shelembe was killed on the following day preceding these three murders, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: I want to explain that I didn't know anything about the killing of Mr Shelembe because he was an IFP member, the one who was killed the following day and I think he was killed because ANC was retaliating.

MS JELAL: Why does his name appear on your application form, page 10 of the bundle?

MR NGCOBO: This one of Ngoma Shelembe, not the one who was killed the next day or the following day after the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: So when was Mr Ngoma Shelembe killed?

MR NGCOBO: I think that one was killed in 1992, together with Mkhize and Ndlovu. They were all killed the same day.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was the name of Mr Shelembe who was killed the next day, the one who you think was a retaliation attack by the ANC, what was his first name, do you know?

MR NGCOBO: No, I don't know his first name.

MS JELAL: So this seems rather strange because in your affidavit on page 24 of the bundle, you distinctly put Mr Shelembe's name there, you refer to him as Shelembe on page, as number 3, and then you go further to tell us that he was killed the next day because he ran away while these people were being shot. So how is it that another Shelembe comes into the picture and you've never told us about him, yet what I'm telling you now is that my instructions are that this Shelembe that is spoken about here is the Shelembe that was killed the next day. It fits in with your story, my instructions and your story is one and the same. So why, why the discrepancy, why is there another Shelembe that has now come into the picture?

MR NGCOBO: The only Shelembe that I know is Ngoma Shelembe, I don't have any idea about the one who was killed the next day because also he was a member of IFP, that one.

MS JELAL: Sir, then is it not correct that yesterday you saw all of these people here, you realised that they were going to say that Mr Shelembe, the one that was killed the following day, whose name is Bonginkosi Shelembe, was actually a colleague of yours, he was the General Secretary of the IFP in that area, he was superior to you. You realised that yesterday did you not?

MR NGCOBO: I wouldn't be able to deny that and I cannot come here and tell lies. I referred to Shelembe Ngoma and not Shelembe the IFP person.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Jelal, so your instructions are from the family of Mr Bonginkosi Shelembe who died the next day?

MS JELAL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you don't have an instruction regarding the death of Mr Ngoma Shelembe, so it would probably be correct to deduce that the notices that were given prior to this hearing went to the family of Mr Bonginkosi Shelembe, rather than Mr Ngoma Shelembe.

MS JELAL: But Chairperson, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that right?

MS JELAL: It could be possible, but my point here is that yesterday ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I take your point, I'm just getting it clear. You don't know anything about Mr Ngoma, you haven't had any of his family instructing you.

MS JELAL: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Only the Mr Shelembe who died the next day?

MS JELAL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Is this Mr Ngoma Shelembe known to your clients, do they know about him?

MS JELAL: This is the first that I'm hearing of his name, so obviously when I consulted with them I didn't even bring it up, it's the first time that it's coming up.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Continue, Ms Jelal.

MS JELAL: Thank you. ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: Just before you proceed ...

&#9;Do you know Mr Bonginkosi Shelembe or did you know him, Mr Ngcobo?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I knew him because he was an IFP member as well.

MR MALAN: Did you know that he was killed?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I do know.

MR MALAN: I thought you said you know only one Shelembe, which is Ngoma Shelembe. Didn't you say that just a few moments ago?

MR NGCOBO: I was trying to explain that I'm referring to the only Shelembe which I took part or I participated in.

MR MALAN: Now this Mr Ngoma Shelembe, where did he live?

MR NGCOBO: Mbooi area, he was a neighbour of Bernard Mkhize.

MR MALAN: And he was killed with Shorty and Bhekinzone and Manglethu.

MR NGCOBO: No, they were not killed together.

CHAIRPERSON: So who was killed together, let's just get this straight? Who were killed together, just give the names please.

MR NGCOBO: Mr Nduleni and Mr Nzuza and Ngcobo, they were killed in one day.

CHAIRPERSON: And when was Ngoma Shelembe killed?

MR NGCOBO: After that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: On the same day or on a different day?

MR NGCOBO: No, not the same day. I think it was after months.

MR MALAN: Why did you mention the four of them in one sentence, you say -

&#9;&#9;"In 1992 I remember killing Shorty, Bhekinzone, Shelembe, Manglethu, along the road in Kwanyavu, as they were coming from the shop."

Here you say Shelembe was also coming from the shop.

MR NGCOBO: I think it was a mistake.

MR MALAN: Now just to get totally sure. You say Nduleni, Nzuza and Ngcobo were killed together on the same day in the same incident. Were they together?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, they were together.

MR MALAN: Now can you tell us the ages more-or-less of Nduleni and Nzuza? How old was Nduleni?

MR NGCOBO: I think Nduleni at the time he may have been 38 or more.

MR MALAN: And Nzuza?

MR NGCOBO: Nzuza I wouldn't be able to estimate, but I think he was more-or-less the same age with the others.

MR MALAN: And Manglethu Ngcobo?

MR NGCOBO: I think he was above 40.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I'm just reading from my evidence-in-chief, please tell me if I've made a mistake, this is my notes that I took when you were giving evidence-in-chief about this incident: 

&#9;"Simphiwe was armed with a shotgun. Simphiwe was the only one to shoot. He shot plus-minus six times. Manglethu was not with them, the other three were together and Manglethu was walking towards his home. Simphiwe first shot at the three and then later at Manglethu. He fired plus-minus six shots at the first three and shot once at Manglethu. Why was Manglethu shot? We were on our way back and we decided not to go to Malombo's as there were soldiers. We had received instructions to kill ANC or people who identified us."

&#9;That's my notes of what happened. Now you're saying that Manglethu was together with, and killed at the same time as Nduleni and Nzuza and that Mr Ngoma Shelembe was killed maybe even some months later. I'm getting confused. Do you have any comment on that, or are my notes wrong?

MR NGCOBO: They were all shot on the street. These two came from the shop, Makletu was walking on the road. It was in one day.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: So then how did you come to know that Mr Bonginkosi Shelembe was shot the next day after the killings that you had carried out?

MR NGCOBO: We were told or a report came that Mr Shelembe had been killed. At that time we were at Ntombela's kraal.

MS JELAL: After the killing and Nduleni, Nzuza and Ngcobo, did you and your companions decide to kill the Shelembe that was accompanying them and walking along the road?

MR NGCOBO: Would you please repeat your question.

MS JELAL: When did you take the standpoint that Mr Shelembe was going to, was also going to be killed? Was it after he ran away, while you were attacking Nduleni, Nzuza and Ngcobo?

MR NGCOBO: I explained before that these three were killed during the night and Shelembe was killed on Monday. I think it was on Monday when he was killed, in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think what Ms Jelal's asking, Mr Ngoma Shelembe now, when did you decide to kill him? Because you said he was killed some months later, maybe even some months later, when did you decide to kill Mr Ngoma Shelembe? And if you could also please tell us the circumstances of his death, how he got killed.

MR NGCOBO: Since there was violence I think Ngoma was no longer staying at home and Mkhize's kraal was attacked and Mapongu(?) was injured and his kraal was set on fire. There were various incidences occurring at Mkhize's kraal and other houses in that area and Ngoma had already left because it was difficult for them to stay in that area since they were in continuous attacks.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so how did you get to kill Ngoma?

MR NGCOBO: There was a certain day where there was going to be a traditional function or ceremony, that day I was in town because we had already left that area, I met Bernard Mkhize in the IFP offices and then he told me that he received a report that there was going to be a function at the Ndlovu's kraal and I was supposed to prepare myself to go there.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened at Ndlovu's kraal? Is that the same one where you say you waited outside the hut, or is this a different one?

MR NGCOBO: No, that incident is about Siyanda Ngubane.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's what I thought. Now I want to know how Ngoma Shelembe was killed, you said you killed Ngoma Shelembe, how and when did you kill him? If not you who had killed him, you're applying for your amnesty, amnesty in respect of his murder. How was he murdered?

MR NGCOBO: I was with Mr Bernard Mkhize in the IFP offices and others as well, he told me that he received a report that there was going to be a function at the Ndlovu's and Themba was going to attend that function and we were supposed to go with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NGCOBO: I was taken from town to Mr Mkhize's kraal.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NGCOBO: When I arrived there I met Mabongu Dladla and his brother and then it was Bernard Mkhize and myself. We were given weapons or firearms because we were supposed to wait for them. It was on a Saturday afternoon. We went to a certain area, the area is like in the fields, maizemeal fields. I was armed with an AK, Mabongu also and the other one with a shotgun and Bernard an AK as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NGCOBO: As they were approaching, Bernard Mkhize was the first one to shoot and Mabongu followed. That's how they got injured. It was at night this time.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that Ngoma got killed?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you shoot?

MR NGCOBO: No, I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Thank you.

&#9;Sir, in this particular incident, which is the killing of Nduleni, Nzuza and Ngcobo, you say that only one person fired, that being Simphiwe Ntombela. Why if all of you were acting in common cause and in furtherance of the IFP, like you maintain, why did all of you not fire?

MR NGCOBO: We didn't want to waster our ammunition because we knew that it may happen that on our way back we can meet other people who were going to fire at us, therefore we didn't want to waste our ammunitions.

MS JELAL: Then if we go back to the instance of Simiso Bhengu, there again we find that you maintain all of you were armed but you were the only one that fired, why was there a sequence where only one person attacked at a time?

MR NGCOBO: As I've already mentioned, we were doing so because we wanted to protect ourselves on our way back, so that if they counter-attack us then we know that we still have ammunition to protect ourselves.

MS JELAL: You further went on on page 24 of the bundle, paragraph 2.3, to say -

&#9;&#9;"These boys were shot because they were ANC members and we were not in good terms with them."

Now are we to interpret that to mean that you were not on good terms with them because they were ANC, or was there some other fight that was going on personally between yourselves and the deceased?

MR NGCOBO: All I know is that it was because they were ANC and we were IFP.

MS JELAL: Okay. Sir, how long were you an IFP member for at that point in time? If we look up until 1992, how long had you been an IFP member for prior to that?

MR NGCOBO: I joined the IFP in 1986, if I'm not mistaken.

MS JELAL: Okay, yesterday you also said to us that Manglethu Ngcobo was related to you, he was actually related to your father, did you know Mr Manglethu Ngcobo well?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

MS JELAL: Okay. My instructions here, are that Mr Manglethu Ngcobo was an IFP card-carrying member for a long, long time. If you knew him so well, you did know then that he was an IFP member did you not?

MR NGCOBO: I don't know about him being an IFP, I only know him as an ANC person.

CHAIRPERSON: But Ms Jelal is saying that's her instructions and she's representing relatives of Mr Ngcobo, that he was a prominent IFP member, and in this regard I refer you to page 38 of the documents in which there's a statement made by one, Ziba Ngcobo, paragraph 5 thereof, where it is written -

&#9;&#9;"I do not understand why he should have resorted to killing my father, he was a prominent IFP member."

&#9;This is the - Mr Ziba Ngcobo is the eldest son of the deceased, the late Mr Manglethu Ngcobo.

MR NGCOBO: What I know is that he was a member of ANC, I didn't know that he was an IFP member.

CHAIRPERSON: So how did you know that he was a member of the ANC?

MR NGCOBO: What I know is that at the time he had issued guns to the ANC.

ADV SANDI: Did you say yesterday you had information from Ketelane Gcabashe that Manglethu Ngcobo was issuing arms to ANC supporters?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I said so.

ADV SANDI: Who was Ketelane Gcabashe, what was his political affiliation?

MR NGCOBO: He was first a member of IFP, but now I think he's an ANC member.

ADV SANDI: When he was giving this information to you, what was he, was he IFP, was he ANC, what was he?

MR NGCOBO: At that time he was still an IFP member.

ADV SANDI: And Mr Manglethu Ngcobo was ANC as well, so you say.

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

ADV SANDI: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: His answer was that at the time he gave the information, Gcabashe was IFP.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think this would be a convenient time, I see it's quarter past eleven, to take a short tea adjournment for 20 minutes and then we'll resume. We'll take a short tea adjournment now, thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

VIVIAN BHANI NGCOBO: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS JELAL: (Cont)

&#9;Thank you, Chair.

&#9;Sir, I now refer you to page 3 of the bundle. Right, therein, if you look at 9A(1), number 3, you say that you are asking for amnesty for the murder of Ndabo Ngoma. Sir, nowhere in your affidavit have you related how this person was killed or what actually occurred there. Could you please tell us why you haven't given us any detail regarding that particular incident?

MR NGCOBO: I thought I was still going to give evidence on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think what Ms Jelal is asking is, we know that you haven't mentioned it while you've been giving evidence, anything about the death of Mr Ndabo Ngoma, but also in your affidavit which appears on page 24 and also in the statement which appears prior to that in the bundle, page 16 and the translation page 21, you make no mention of this person Ndabo Ngoma, and I think that's what Ms Jelal is asking. Why didn't you mention his death in either your affidavit or in any of the statements? Or indeed in your evidence-in-chief?

MR NGCOBO: When I wrote that letter to the TRC, I did mention it but here I thought I was going to be given a chance to be asked about it and then give more details about it.

MS JELAL: Sir, but you were given a chance, you were asked to explain the incidences that occurred, why did it slip your mind?

MR NGCOBO: I only made mention of the incidences and I thought I was going to be asked because since the beginning when I was giving my testimony, my attorney was asking me and then I was relating the incidences. In other words I was answering the questions.

MS JELAL: So are you applying for amnesty for that particular murder or aren't you?

MR NGCOBO: I am applying for amnesty for that incident as well.

MS JELAL: So could you please tell us exactly how Mr Ngoma was killed?

CHAIRPERSON: And why.

MR NGCOBO: Since there was violence in the area, on one occasion Mr Khanyile was shot, he was a resident of Esimangweni and it was known that Ngoma's relatives are ANC supporters even though they were not residing in the area. Ngoma met with them in town and they said sometimes they do come to the Khanyile family and this Khanyile were IFP members.

&#9;We also received information that Ngoma met with the ANC group in town and Ndabo gave them information as to how they can get hold of us if they were looking for us because he knew where we were residing, and we got this information Sabelo Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue please.

MR NGCOBO: When Sabelo told us this I told the leaders about this and the leaders questioned me as to how Sabelo got this information and I told them that Sabelo saw them in town and he was explaining to those ANC people as to how they can get hold of us. ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we're not getting any interpretation.

INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, my speaker was off.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ngcobo, if you could just repeat what you've just said, the translator didn't manage to translate it because of a speaker problem.

MR NGCOBO: On one occasion police came to my home, they searched the house and after they searched the house they didn't get anything and then they asked me if I know Ndabo and I told them yes, and they told me that he was the one who gave them information that there were firearms in my home.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NGCOBO: I met with Mr Ntombela again and I gave him this information. Among the police who came there was one from Petwa, from Number 5 house. I met Mr Ntombela the following day and I told him about this incident or the showing up of policemen and searching of the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NGCOBO: After I reported this to Mr Ntombela, he said he was going to convey this information to Bongani Mpetha and Bernard Mkhize. They met and David Ntombela was one of the them and it was decided in that meeting that such a person should be killed. ...(indistinct) wasn't present. It was also decided that we should meet on another day so that we go and attack Mr Ndabo Ngoma.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue.

MR NGCOBO: Even though I cannot remember the day, but we went to his home, it was myself and Simphiwe. It was in the night. He was at his home and I think his girlfriend was also present.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NGCOBO: On that day when we arrived at his home we knocked and then he asked as to who was knocking at the door and I told him it was myself. He opened the door. As he opened the door he realised that we were armed and then I started questioning him about the police who came to my house. He didn't answer me back, he just ran away and then I ran after him and I started shooting at him. I fired twice. Simphiwe was behind and he shot at the girl, or rather the girlfriend, his girlfriend.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you kill him by shooting at him twice?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what happened to the girlfriend?

MR NGCOBO: She was also killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Thank you. 

&#9;How well did you know Ndabo?

MR NGCOBO: We were in good terms because I knew him as an IFP member before, but then when these incidents occurred we were instructed to kill him.

MS JELAL: Do you remember the month when the police searched your house? Which month was this and what year?

MR NGCOBO: I wouldn't be able to remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you remember the year?

MR NGCOBO: And also I wouldn't be able to remember the year because it happened when there was violence in the area.

CHAIRPERSON: Because in your application on page 3 again, you've got it down as 1991, it's 1992 scratched out and then 1991 written there.

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I do see that.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you not sure whether it's 1991 or 1992?

MR NGCOBO: Since there was violence I wasn't certain when I wrote this, which year it was or which year it occurred.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Thank you.

&#9;Sir, is it correct that the killing of Ndabo took place about three weeks after Cebo Majola was killed?

MR NGCOBO: I'm not certain about that.

MS JELAL: I refer you to page 42 of the bundle, it's an affidavit by Thandekile Ngoma, she was the mother of the deceased, Ndabo Amos Ngoma and I look at paragraphs 3, 4 and 5, it reads -

&#9;&#9;"I knew Xhawulani Ngcobo as a close friend of my son, the deceased, they even attended the same school, Gangezwa(?) High School, where my son matriculated."

4:

&#9;&#9;"My son had a two-year-old son, was single, in his late 20's, plus-minus 27 years old. He was not employed."

5:

&#9;&#9;"Xhawulani and my son were prominent IFP members and never quarrelled, fought or engaged in any conflict that I knew of."

&#9;So you do agree that Ndabo was an IFP member throughout.

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I do agree.

MS JELAL: So at the time of killing him you knew that you were killing an IFP member and not an ANC member.

MR NGCOBO: I knew him as a friend and also we belonged to one organisation, but since the information I had received about him it showed that he may not be an IFP member anymore.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if I may just put one other aspect on page 42, just for your comment. Mrs Thandekile Ngoma in the same statement, in paragraph 7, says inter alias, amongst other things, there was no political unrest at that time in the area. What do you say to that?

MR NGCOBO: What I know is that there was political violence.

MR MALAN: May I just ask you a question. If I understand you correctly he was also a prominent IFP member with you, you were friends, and I think you confirmed that, that's correct?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR MALAN: Now why did you not take him along to Mkhize, Mpetha and the chief, the chairman, your chairman? Why didn't you ask "Give him an opportunity to speak for himself"?

CHAIRPERSON: Why accept the word of a policeman and not give Ndabo a chance, seeing that he was a prominent IFP member, to at least defend himself or explain?

MR NGCOBO: If I remember well, Ntombela sent a message that he must come and see him, but then he didn't come. I think he tried more than two times.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Thank you.

&#9;Sir, when you received instructions to kill, were these - how were these instructions relayed to you, was it face to face and was it done together with yourself and Simphiwe Ntombela, Ndlovu and Ndunga? Were you all given instructions at the same time?

MR NGCOBO: We used to meet and they will tell us face to face as what we were supposed to do.

MR MALAN: Just before you proceed, Ms Jelal, I want to get back to the previous question.

&#9;You say if you remember very well, Ntombela sent a message to Ndabo, he tried more than two times but he did not come, did I hear you correctly?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, that's correct.

MR MALAN: You reported the incident to Ntombela, that's what you told us, is that correct? Is my note correct?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I reported to him and also Sabelo was called by Mr Ntombela and he also told Mr Ntombela what he told me.

MR MALAN: Did Ntombela ask you to give a message to Ndabo to come and see him? He was your friend, did he not ask you to ask your friend to come and see him?

MR NGCOBO: He told me to go and tell him and indeed I did that.

MR MALAN: Did you go and tell him?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I did.

MR MALAN: Did you go to him more than two times?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I was the one who was going to Ndabo to give him the report.

MR MALAN: Why did you tell us that Ntombela sent him a message, why did you not tell us that Ntombela sent you?

MR NGCOBO: I was still going to explain that when he was sending the message he was sending me.

CHAIRPERSON: When you went to see Ndabo after you had seen Ntombela, did you speak to Ndabo about the allegations against him, that he was now spying and giving the police information?

MR NGCOBO: I told him that Mr Ntombela wants to see him but I didn't tell him that it was in connection with those allegations.

CHAIRPERSON: So from what you say, would it be correct to assume that Ndabo would have no reason to be afraid to go and see Mr Ntombela, seeing he didn't know the reason why Mr Ntombela wanted to see him?

MR NGCOBO: Since we were in good terms I thought he was going to go and see him when I told him, but he didn't.

MR MALAN: Sorry, was that after you ...(indistinct) the first message?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR MALAN: Was it after you gave him the message the first time that you thought he was going to see him?

MR NGCOBO: At first I went to him and I told him that Mr Ntombela wanted to see him and I didn't tell him why he wanted to see him, but then he didn't go and see him. After a week I met with Mr Ntombela and Mr Ntombela asked me what happened and I told him that I had conveyed the message and he told me that he didn't show up and Mr Ntombela told me to go back to him and tell him that he should come and see him and on that occasion that's when I explained to him about the allegations, but still he didn't go.

MR MALAN: I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: So when you explained the allegations to him on that second occasion what was his Ndabo's reaction to that, what did he say?

MR NGCOBO: He only told me that he was going to see Mr Ntombela, and I could tell then and there that the friendship was now suffering.

MS JELAL: Did you ever ask Ndabo if he gave information to the police?

MR NGCOBO: No, I only told him the second time when Mr Ntombela had sent me to come and see him and I told him that the reason he wants to see him it's because of that incident of the police coming to my home looking for firearms.

MS JELAL: From what you've just said now it's obvious that you were still on talking terms with Ndabo even after the police searched your house, so why didn't you ask him if he was the person responsible, why didn't you confront him with the allegations of the rumours that you had heard?

MR NGCOBO: My aim was I wanted Ndabo to go and see Mr Ntombela because I thought if I were to question him he may deny or he may not even give me full information, so I wanted him to go and see Mr Ntombela.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just one little question.

&#9;The police who searched your house, was it the KwaZulu Police or the SAP?

MR NGCOBO: I didn't know at the time but I think the Station Commander was a ZP and he was with the police.

MS JELAL: Sir, it is common that in light of political violence and what has occurred before, if one political party attacks the other you find that there's a counterattack immediately. So every time that you attacked the ANC, was there a counterattack against the IFP shortly thereafter?

MR NGCOBO: Incidences and people I can remember was the Mkhize family which was attacked and one person died and also there was another incident when Mr Khanyile, he was also killed and Mr Mtolo, his house was burnt down and he was also burnt with his house after he had been shot. And Makeke's mother's house was also attacked and the Zondi families were attacked even though no-one died there.

MS JELAL: Sir, can you - you've now given us a list of counterattacks, or what you claim to be counterattacks, after which attack made by the IFP on the ANC did the ANC carry out each one of these attacks?

MR NGCOBO: The list that I just gave as some of them was just an attack and others were counterattacks.

MS JELAL: Sir, I'll put the question more simply to you then. On the - when you killed Shorty Nduleni, Nzuza and Ngcobo, right, which you maintain was in 1992, did a counterattack from the ANC follow immediately or shortly after this attack?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, there was.

MS JELAL: Yes, could you give us the details of this attack?

MR NGCOBO: My cousin, Nthlantla Dlamini was attacked even though he was not injured and Simphiwe was shot at and they were on their way to Bhekizita Mkhize. He was shot at at the knee at first and he survived, he went to hospital, and then later he was shot at and he was killed and Madlala as well was shot at and Mr Ngeti, who was shot near Ntwela area. His name is Sikone Ngeti. And Mduduzi Dlamini was attacked as well, who was staying in a shop, his father's shop.

MS JELAL: Was this all after the incident of the killing of Nduleni, Nzuza and Ngcobo?

MR NGCOBO: I wouldn't be able to say so because these incidences occurred in various days.

MS JELAL: So you cannot say that these were actually counterattacks, we are not talking about counterattacks, are we?

MR NGCOBO: Since there are various incidences I cannot be able to tell which one came first and which one followed, I think there were quite a number, some of them I didn't even count them here or I can't remember them.

MS JELAL: Sir, do you remember all of what you've put in your affidavit in your application, do you remember all of this very well?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I will say I do remember, even though I cannot say I remember them very well. It's not easy because of the time lapse and also of the fact that there were various incidences at the time.

MS JELAL: Okay Sir, because now I'm going to tell you that when you look Sipho Majola and if you look at page 47 of the bundle, there we have an affidavit by Bongiwe Margaret Majola, who was the wife of the later Cebo Majola, paragraph 2 thereof she says that Mr Majola was killed on the 30th of August 1991, and yet on page 24 of the bundle, paragraph 2.1 you say that it was in 1990, you had forgotten the exact date, but that this killing took place in 1990. You see that is giving the families of the victims some bit of - they're not very happy about the fact that you can't remember the date, you can't remember the incidences properly. Can you tell us why is that? I mean you've said that there were numerous incidences but it seems as though you remember little things like who gave you the orders, how it was carried out, it must come to you at some point in time, exactly the sequence of events that took place thereafter.

MR NGCOBO: As I've already mentioned before, it is not easy for me to remember the date. Sometimes I will remember the day but forget the year, as I've already explained that.

MS JELAL: So why is it that every time you had a personal problem, for instance if we look at the case of Mr Bhengu, Simiso Bhengu, he was the one that approached your girlfriend, then we look again at Sishle(?) Mkhize, you gave a similar type of story for the killing of Sishle Mkhize, similar to the one that you gave for killing Mr Bhengu, right, or when you thought that Cebo Majola had something to do with your father's death, why is it that every time you went back to Mr Ntombela with your problems and you tried for him to sort it out? Do you expect us to believe that you did not want to do something on your own? It seems like you took all your personal problems to him, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: I was reporting to Mr Ntombela since he was the Chairperson.

MS JELAL: So did Mr Ntombela then take an active part in everybody or all of the IFP members' private lives or whatever went wrong in their private lives as well?

MR NGCOBO: We knew that these problems were political, therefore that's why we went and saw him.

MS JELAL: Sir, but you conceded that for example, Ndabo was not ANC, it was not political, he was IFP, he was a colleague of yours, he was one of you.

MR NGCOBO: In that case it was because of what he did, as I've already explained.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just assume for purposes of argument, that Ndabo told the police that you had firearms at your house, just let's assume that, why would that make it political? Let's say he went to the police and said that you robbed a shop, would that also be political? The mere fact - your possession of those guns was not legal, he went to the police, on your version, to report some unlawful act, now why does that in itself make it political?

MR NGCOBO: Since we were in conflict with another organisation, if one would go and report such things to police knowing that we were in continuous conflict and attacks with the ANC, then it will be political.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Sir, we then go on to the submission that you made saying that you were caught with possession of home-made firearms and that the charges against you were withdrawn, at which court were these charges brought you?

MR NGCOBO: We were arrested after the incident involving Siyanda(?) Ngubane, he was attacked on the Saturday and we were arrested on a Sunday.

MS JELAL: My question Sir, is that you said that you were charged with the possession of home-made firearms and that the charges were subsequently withdrawn, did you appear in court with regards to this matter?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, we did.

MS JELAL: Okay, in which court was this?

MR NGCOBO: I think it was the Pietermaritzburg Regional Court.

MS JELAL: And were reasons given to you for your case being withdrawn?

MR NGCOBO: I do not remember, it was just mentioned that the case was being withdrawn. I do not remember the reason tabled.

MS JELAL: Sir, what were doing with these home-made firearms and where did you get them from?

MR NGCOBO: One had been brought by Mduduzi Ndaba and another had been brought by Bruce Shezi. These weapons were used by them for protection.

MS JELAL: Were these two people now IFP members?

MR NGCOBO: That is correct.

MS JELAL: So why would they need home-made firearms if you in your evidence-in-chief submitted that Mr Powell supplied you with firearms?

MR NGCOBO: It was just their own firearms that they brought with.

MS JELAL: So did they have other firearms besides these home-made firearms?

MR NGCOBO: No, they didn't.

ADV SANDI: Did you have a shortage of firearms?

MR NGCOBO: No, we didn't have a problem, but these were just their own weapons that they brought, that they had in their possession.

MS JELAL: Thank you.

&#9;Sir, now coming to Sishle Mkhize. Sir, how did you know that he was ANC, what did he do to make you believe that he was ANC?

MR NGCOBO: I got to believe that he was an ANC member when he went to my girlfriend Mabongi and informed her that he had been sent by myself to fetch her. He was in the company of other people at that time.

MS JELAL: So just because he interfered with your girlfriend you immediately assumed he was ANC, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: I believe that since we had not quarrelled, never quarrelled with him before and he was aware that we were in continuous conflict with another organisation, he was just doing that to get back at me or to harm me in a particular way.

MS JELAL: Sir, you were the Youth Secretary for the IFP, did you know most of the IFP members in your area, were you au fait with them, were friends, acceptances, or did you just know them?

MR NGCOBO: At that time I had just been elected into office, so I didn't know all of the members but I knew a few as well as all the other members who were in the Executive Committee.

MS JELAL: Okay. Earlier on you spoke about no-go area, so did you know which were the no-go areas and could you decide now who was IFP and who was ANC because of the no-go areas? And also remember that you said that you knew that Nduleni, Nzuza and Ngcobo were ANC because of the area that they were in, so you could personally differentiate between the areas?

MR NGCOBO: We did have knowledge that it was impossible to move around at night and it would be difficult for you to be in an area where you knew that you were in danger. That is why I also felt free when I was walking in our area because no-one would come. When we met Mr Nzuza and others we knew very well that any persons we were going to meet on that route was an ANC supporter or affiliated to the ANC, because it was not easy for any other persons to be along that route at that time.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, just for my own clarity, are you still talking about the area which you said was 50% ANC and 50% IFP?

MR NGCOBO: Yes.

ADV SANDI: That's the area you say was a no-go area for IFP members at night?

MR NGCOBO: I would say so, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Thank you.

&#9;Sir, if you look at page 55, this is an affidavit of Muzi Wazembo Jake Mkhize, the father of Sishle Mkhize, he maintains that -

&#9;&#9;"The applicant was in our organisation and living with us."

CHAIRPERSON: That is in Kwanyavu?

MS JELAL: In Kwanyavu. He says that you were living with them, so therefore you would know that, if you knew the areas and if he was living with you, that he would be IFP, by your own submissions. And if you go up and look at paragraph 2, looking at line 2 -

&#9;&#9;"All the people in our area were following the IFP, including my son, the victim, who is Sishle Mkhize. I knew the applicant also to be an IFP supporter."

&#9;This is an affidavit made by Sishle Mkhize's father, he says that his son was IFP. Did you know that or didn't you know that?

MR NGCOBO: No, I didn't know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know Mr Muzi Wazembo Jake Mkhize, the father of Sishle Mkhize?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I do know although I didn't know his name.

CHAIRPERSON: And so know what political affiliation he has? That's the father, Mr Muzi Wazembo Mkhize.

MR NGCOBO: I would be telling a lie if I said I knew.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Thank you.

&#9;Sir, most of these people that were killed, right, you are quite adamant that they were ANC and that your instructions to kill them came from higher authority, how are we supposed to believe that your instructions did come from a higher authority, because all that we have for it is your word and nothing else?

MR NGCOBO: Well I'm not in a position to say how or instruct you how you can believe that, but everything that we did was done following an instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Jelal.

&#9;In the bundle, Mr Ngcobo, there's a number of statements from relatives of persons who you say you have killed and in just about each and every one of those statements they say they don't know why their relative was killed "we didn't know who killed our relative, we only learnt now that it's you, since this process has begun, that has killed them and we don't even know why". And if you look at Mr Mkhize's statement here on page 55, he says -

&#9;&#9;"We had the impression that they were killed by ANC people, these were these mysterious deaths that often occurred on a Friday night."

They didn't even know the reason for the killings. The only statements from a relative, on record, which says that their might have been some impression that the relative was ANC, was I think the Majola one where he said that he worked at Buyers(?) in town and there was the impression that most people who worked were members of Unions and therefore ANC, but he wasn't really. Now can you explain why all of them without exception say that their loved ones who were killed were not ANC? And also while on that, if you're going to kill somebody for a political reason, don't you want to get some sort of message across to the community that that person was killed for a political reason, not just a mysterious stealthful killing which no-one knows why it's happening?

MR NGCOBO: We carried out those acts under the instruction from our leaders. They also emphasised that we should not carry out these acts in broad daylight because at night there were less chances that we may be identified and arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MR MALAN: Sorry, just before you proceed, may I just ask one question, I'm not sure that I got that from you. Kwanyavu, was that an IFP or ANC area?

MR NGCOBO: I know it to be a mixed area, there were ANC and IFP people residing there.

MR MALAN: More IFP or less IFP?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot specify who were in the majority because you could not really tell because people would be aligned their organisation and they would not come out publicly with this information.

MR MALAN: And Chief Ndluli, was he IFP or ANC at the time?

MR NGCOBO: I knew him to be an IFP supporter. 

MR MALAN: And Kwanyavu was Chief Ndluli's area.

MR NGCOBO: That is correct.

MR MALAN: So Kwanyavu would not have been a no-go area for IFP? The IFP could move in Kwanyavu.

MR NGCOBO: As far as I know we did have problems with regards to our movements in the area, the ANC experienced the same.

MR MALAN: Yes, but it wasn't a no-go area, you were at risk if you encounter each other, but the presence in the area did not make you IFP or ANC. Is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I would say so.

MR MALAN: And you killed, according to your statement, Nduleni, Nzuza and Ngcobo in Kwanyavu.

MR NGCOBO: I wish to explain that there were two different organisations and you could freely move in your specific ...(intervention)

MR MALAN: I didn't ask you about that, I asked you a question about where these people were killed, were they killed in Kwanyavu? Just answer my question.

MR NGCOBO: Yes, they were.

MR MALAN: Thank you. Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Sir, my last question. Was there any conflict in the IFP party itself in this area?

MR NGCOBO: No, I do not have any knowledge with regards to that, what I do know is that the ANC was fighting with IFP.

MS JELAL: No further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS JELAL

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Jelal. Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions you'd like to put?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Just a few, Mr Chair, thank you.

&#9;Mr Ngcobo, were you related to Cebo Majola?

MR NGCOBO: I had heard previously at home people alluding to a certain form of relations ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: I'm asking this because on page 47 of Mabongiwe's statement she suggests that you were a relative, it's on paragraph 4, would you say she's not telling the truth or it's an incorrect allegation that you were a relative to the deceased? Page 47, paragraph 4.

MR NGCOBO: I did hear of that relation ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: You were also ...(indistinct), isn't that correct? - with Cebo Majola.

MR NGCOBO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You either related to some person or not, Ms Thabethe has asked whether you were related to Mr Majola and you say "I did hear about that", are you saying that you're not related or you are related or you may be related but you don't know? What is the position? Do you deny that you were a relative of his?

MR NGCOBO: I do not deny it.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you. 

&#9;Before the incident of you killing him, how did you relate with each other as neighbours and as relatives?

MR NGCOBO: Previously there were no problems that existed between us, the problem only arose when we had these differences.

MS THABETHE: Were you - I mean did you interact, did you talk? Were you used to each other or to one another?

MR NGCOBO: We would greet one another if we met on the road but I was not close to the person.

ADV SANDI: Let's just make this clear. This is not a situation of you and Mr Majola not being on speaking terms, you would speak with each other.

MR NGCOBO: Because we did not have any problems previously with Mr Majola, we would talk and greet each other if we met.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thanks.

&#9;You've been asked several times whether the area you lived in was IFP dominated and your evidence has been it wasn't IFP dominated, now my question to that is I've got statements here in the bundle, page 33 which is Figa Bhengu's statement, page 47 which is Bongiwe Majola's statement and page 55 which is Jake Mkhize's statement, all of them allege that your area was IFP dominated. Are you suggesting that they are not telling the truth or they are incorrect about that fact?

MR NGCOBO: I think that is incorrect.

MS THABETHE: Are you saying the three of them made a mistake and you are correct? Is that your evidence?

MR NGCOBO: I am only speaking about what I know.

MS THABETHE: I want to put it to you, Mr Ngcobo, that it's very unlikely that three people can say your area was IFP dominated and they be incorrect. What is your response to that?

MR NGCOBO: I cannot agree with them. I cannot agree with them because as I said before I am only speaking on what I know.

MS THABETHE: If you claim that they are incorrect about the fact that this area was IFP dominated, why would they create this up?

MR NGCOBO: I wouldn't know.

MS THABETHE: I'll move on, Mr Ngcobo. There was a question as well about the political unrest in the area and your evidence was that there was no political unrest in the area. My question ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think he said there was political unrest.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, he ... 

CHAIRPERSON: I mean the whole tenor of his evidence was that there was a political ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Yes, yes, I beg your pardon, Mr Chair, I'm indebted to you.

&#9;Your evidence has been that there was political unrest in the area, again we've got statements in the bundle from the victims, next-of-kin, page 42 and page 33, who allege that there was no political unrest in the area but there were faction fights. Would you like to comment about that again, did they make a mistake or did you make a mistake about that?

MR NGCOBO: What I know is that there was political conflict in the area.

MS THABETHE: What would your basis be for saying that there was political unrest in this area?

MR MALAN: Ms Thabethe, I think he's given us quite a number of incidents that he referred to, maybe that's his understanding of the conflict.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, I'm indebted to you, I'll move on.

&#9;You've also indicated that Nzuza, Bhengu and Nduleni - I'm not sure whether I've got the names right ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you referring to the incidents ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: The incident where his girlfriend was kidnapped.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think it's Nzuza, I think it's Ngubane and Bhengu.

MS THABETHE: Yes.

&#9;You've also indicated that Ngubane and Bhengu were involved in kidnapping your girlfriend, is that correct?

MR NGCOBO: There are two incidents. In one incident it was Mr Ngubane and Bhengu and on another occasion it was Mr Mkhize and others, whom I did not get to know their identities.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think, Mr Ngcobo, you said that when Mr Mkhize went there they didn't actually take your girlfriend, she refused to go and she stayed but later sometime, another day when Messrs Bhengu and Ngubane came they actually abducted her and took her away and tied her up with chains.

MR NGCOBO: What I said is she was kidnapped on that occasion when Mkhize and others came to her, but on the other occasion involving Mr Ngubane she did not go with them.

CHAIRPERSON: So she was actually abducted by Mkhize and others and that's the time they left her with her hands tied and then she managed to escape, is that right?

MR NGCOBO: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And when Ngubane and Bhengu came for her she refused to go and they didn't take her, is that what you're saying?

MR NGCOBO: That's correct.

MS THABETHE: Okay, so now my understanding is Mr Mkhize is the one who kidnapped her. From the bundle again we've got evidence that Mr Mkhize was an IFP member, now my question is why do you think your girlfriend was abducted or was kidnapped by Mr Mkhize ...(indistinct) his team?

MR NGCOBO: Please repeat that question.

MS THABETHE: Why do you think your girlfriend was kidnapped by Mr Mkhize, who was an IFP member?

MR NGCOBO: What I know is that during that conflict between the ANC and the IFP, an IFP member would not have done something of that nature to me if we were in the same organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Thabethe, if I could just interpose, just before it slips my mind.

&#9;Again I'm reading my notes, Mr Ngcobo, correct me if I'm wrong, but these are the notes that I took when you were giving your evidence yesterday. 

&#9;&#9;"How did you know Sishle Mkhize?" 

&#9;&#9;"He was a resident in our area and a member of ANC. He was a supporter of the ANC. Siyanda Ngubane was a resident of the area and he participated in the fighting."

Then it carries on -

&#9;&#9;"Why was Sishle Mkhize killed?"

That's the question.

&#9;&#9;"On one occasion they went to Mabongi, saying that I had sent for her. They took her and they hit her with weapons and injured her. She went to hospital. Later told me she could identify her attackers. They wanted to kill her but she got away. She said one of them she can identify and explain the clothes. I know him from his description and from the description of his clothes. One day later she pointed him out to me."

&#9;Now that's why when I mentioned it earlier I was under the distinct impression that it was Bhengu and - oh sorry, this was Mkhize, so it was Mkhize that came. Yes sorry, no, I withdraw that.

ADV SANDI: In any case, just explain what would be political about this, people go and see a woman at night, they try to play some trick on her, they take her away and they leave her in a veld, in an open space somewhere, what's political about that?

MR NGCOBO: I was of the opinion that was just one strategy that they were using to fight us because we were in a war situation with them.

ADV SANDI: Yesterday I understood you to say they wanted to kill her as well, do you remember yourself saying that?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, I do.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but if they wanted to kill her, what was preventing them from killing her, they could have just killed her on the spot and not just leave her in that open space?

MR NGCOBO: What I learnt was that when they left her on the spot they were going to fetch their firearms and she managed to flee before they returned.

ADV SANDI: And that stage only her hands were tied and not the legs, she could just walk and go wherever she wanted to.

MR NGCOBO: She told me that only her hands were tied, not her feet.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, thank you, Mr Chair. I also wanted to ask the question how was this political, but I'll move on on that question. 

&#9;Now after you discovered that they had kidnapped your girlfriend, you've just given evidence that you felt that was directed to you, would I be correct to say so?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, that is what occurred to me because when I went to inform our leaders they also were of the opinion that that action was directed towards me.

MS THABETHE: So as a result you decided to kill them.

MR NGCOBO: Actually that was not my decision, it came from the leaders.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, I didn't hear that, can you repeat?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that that wasn't his decision to kill them, it came from the leaders, his leaders.

MS THABETHE: But wasn't that decision based on what you told them?

MR NGCOBO: Please repeat that.

MS THABETHE: Wasn't ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think that's clear from the evidence, that he went and told the leaders and then they made the decision based on what he told them. I think that's not in dispute.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, did he give evidence as to what exactly he told them?

CHAIRPERSON: No, I can't recall, but it was on information provided by him that the, he said the leaders made the decision.

MS THABETHE: Maybe I should ask the question then. 

&#9;Exactly what did you tell your leaders?

MR NGCOBO: I went to report on that day that Mabongi was injured ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: No, sorry, Mr Ngcobo, I just want you to get to what you told them please. What you told your leaders.

MR NGCOBO: I told them that Mabongi who was my girlfriend had been injured, that she had been picked up by persons who had alleged to be sent by me.

MS THABETHE: Mr Ngcobo, is it your evidence that your leaders made a decision that someone was be killed, based on the fact that your girlfriend was kidnapped, is that your evidence?

MR NGCOBO: I would say the decision was issued after the information I had given them, which was also that action, that that action was based on the continuous conflict that we had with the other organisation.

MS THABETHE: My last question, Mr Ngcobo. How was that going to achieve the objectives of the IFP?

MR NGCOBO: The leaders expressed the view that if we are able to remove opposition from the ANC, the IFP would ultimately win that area.

MS THABETHE: Sorry, Mr Chair, I had said my last question, one more last question.

&#9;You have indicated as well that - I might be getting the names wrong, Nzuza, Bhengu and Nduleni were killed because you were afraid they were going to tell about the fact that you were going to burn Malombo's house, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, he didn't say that, he said that one of the elements why they were killed is because they might identify him, he didn't say - I think the impression that we all got, except maybe for yourself, was that they were going Molobo's to attack and then they aborted it when they saw policemen. They didn't tell anybody, they didn't tell Nzuza and Nduleni about it, no-one knew that they were going for that attack in that area, but they killed him on their way back when they saw them because they thought they might be identified and also because, as he says, he was in a no-go area and they therefore assumed that they were ANC supporters and therefore killed them.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, you've answered my question. I have no further questions, thanks.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Snyman, do you have any re-examination?

MR SNYMAN: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SNYMAN

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Do you have any questions, Adv Sandi?

ADV SANDI: Just one, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Can you explain, you say the objective of the IFP was to remove everyone who was not IFP in that area.

MR NGCOBO: I will say yes.

ADV SANDI: What do you mean by removing, to remove, what involved in that?

MR NGCOBO: Since there was fighting a decision had been taken by our leaders that if ANC members attack us we should also do the same because we were sustaining deaths from the ANC.

ADV SANDI: In other words these people had to be killed.

MR NGCOBO: Please repeat your question.

ADV SANDI: Are you saying that these people had to be killed?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, they had to be killed as per instruction from the leaders.

ADV SANDI: If you say in this area it was 50% ANC and 50% IFP, then it means that you would have to kill 50% of the population in that area, isn't that so?

MR NGCOBO: What I can state is that our leaders always informed us that ANC people should be killed because there was this war going on.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions, Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Just on the same score, I heard you - and I can't find my note now, saying that there was a general instruction that wherever you would encounter an ANC supporter you were to kill him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think that came out in the evidence relating to the death of Messrs Nzuza and Nduleni. He said that they were there and there was this standing order.

MR MALAN: I just want to make sure that I heard you correctly. You also say that in a different way on page 24 of the bundle, in 2.4 -

&#9;&#9;"We hated the ANC so much, we wanted to kill them and sweep the area clean."

So there was a general instruction to kill ANC wherever you would encounter them, is that correct? Am I summarising your evidence correctly?

MR NGCOBO: Yes, there was that instruction from the leaders.

MR MALAN: Now if you had known some of these deceased people who you'd killed to be ANC, why did you report them all to the leaders, why didn't you simply kill them? Why did you have to get instructions in each and every occasion if you had that general instruction?

MR NGCOBO: We did this because at each and every juncture we would inform our leaders if something had happened and they would then give us guidance on what to do.

MR MALAN: That's not good enough. The question is, if you knew a person to be ANC, as you say you knew some of these people to have been ANC, why didn't you kill them straightaway?

MR NGCOBO: The leaders insisted that if something happened we should report to them.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any questions arising, Mr Snyman, from questions put by the Panel members?

MR SNYMAN: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR SNYMAN

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: No.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS JELAL

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ngcobo, that then concludes your testimony. 

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to be calling any witnesses?

MR SNYMAN: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jelal, is there going to be any further evidence in this matter, you're not calling anybody?

MS JELAL: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That's fine, I'm just wanting to know because I think we'll take the lunch adjournment now and then we'll proceed afterwards. If there wasn't going to be any evidence then I would have asked you, and I'll ask you in any event, please to apply your mind to submissions to be made and then we'll make submissions straight after we've finished the evidence. And if possible, if we could start again at quarter to two, thank you. 

&#9;We'll take the lunch adjournment now and start again at quarter to two, thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Chairperson, I've just sent somebody to call the witness, Mr Shelembe, he'll be here shortly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MACHINE SWITCHED OFF

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we should then take a short adjournment while we're waiting for this witness. As soon as he comes, Ms Jelal, if you could let us know and then we can resume immediately as soon as he's available.

MS JELAL: Yes, I will.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shelembe, what are your full names please?

SIPHIWE CONSTABLE SHELEMBE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shelembe, when you're speaking the red light must be on, thank you.

EXAMINATION BY MS JELAL: Sir, for how long have you been living in the Kanyezeni area at Table Mountain?

MR SHELEMBE: I think about 20 years.

MS JELAL: Sir, you were present in this area from 1990 to 1992, is that correct?

MR SHELEMBE: Yes, I was.

MS JELAL: Sir, do you know - or how is Bonginkosi Shelembe, how was he related to you?

MR SHELEMBE: I would say he was my brother.

MS JELAL: Do you know the applicant, Mr Ngcobo in this matter?

MR SHELEMBE: Yes, I do.

MS JELAL: Regarding your brother, Bonginkosi, what was his political affiliation?

MR SHELEMBE: Please repeat your question.

MS JELAL: To what political party did you brother Bonginkosi belong to and what position did he hold in this party?

MR SHELEMBE: As far as I'm aware he was an IFP member and he held the position of Secretary.

MS JELAL: And the applicant in this matter, what political party did he belong to?

MR SHELEMBE: As far as I'm aware he was an IFP member.

MS JELAL: Was there political upheaval in this area from 1990 to 1992?

MR SHELEMBE: From about 1990 to 1992 that political conflict had somehow somewhat decreased but people were still being killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Shelembe, did you reside in the same area as the applicant?

MR SHELEMBE: Yes, it was just one area near the Kanyezeni school.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Sir, the applicant has indicated that there were both ANC and IFP people residing in this area, were the ANC dominant or the IFP?

MR SHELEMBE: As far as I am aware the IFP was the dominant party, there may have been a few ANC members living there, but the IFP was dominant.

MS JELAL: Sir, when was Bonginkosi Shelembe killed?

MR SHELEMBE: It was on a Tuesday, I think it was on the 8th of September 1992.

MS JELAL: Were there any killings that took place the night prior to the killing of your brother?

MR SHELEMBE: I know of Bonginkosi and Mr Ngcobo, Mr Nzuza and Mr Nduleni.

MS JELAL: Sir, I am now going to just read out the names of the victims for whom the applicant claims amnesty, just tell me if you know them and if you know to what political party they belonged to please: Cebo Majola.

MR SHELEMBE: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't get the interpretation.

MR SHELEMBE: I do not know which political party Mr Majola was affiliated to because he worked in Durban.

MS JELAL: Ndamo Ngoma?

MR SHELEMBE: I did not know Ndamo well because he was still a pupil.

MS JELAL: Shorty Nduleni?

MR SHELEMBE: I think he was an ANC supporter because when I had discussions with his brother he would inform me that their family is affiliated to the ANC, so I am not sure whether he was indeed an ANC member.

MS JELAL: Bhekizone Mzuza?

MR SHELEMBE: It is also difficult for me to know to which political organisation he belonged, I did not know.

MS JELAL: Manglethu Ngcobo?

MR SHELEMBE: I do not know as well because he was quite an elderly person.

MS JELAL: Sishle Mkhize?

MR SHELEMBE: I do not even remember Sishle Mkhize, I cannot even recall the person.

MS JELAL: Sir, do you know anybody by the name of Ngoma Shelembe?

MR SHELEMBE: Please repeat that name.

MS JELAL: Did you know anybody by the name of Ngoma Shelembe who was killed in that area ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Can you please spell that first name.

MS JELAL: ... during this period '90 to 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Ms Jelal, the translator has asked if you could spell the first name.

MS JELAL: N-g-c-a-m-u.

CHAIRPERSON: Ngcamo, it might be Ngcamo. Mr Snyman is helping us here.

MS SNYMAN: Mr Chairman, it's spelt N-g-o-m-a.

CHAIRPERSON: N-g-o-m-a, Ngoma Shelembe. 

&#9;Do you know a Mr Ngoma Shelembe? I don't know, Mr Shelembe, if you heard the evidence of the applicant when he said that he killed Ngoma Shelembe, he's not sure when but maybe some months after the death of Messrs Ngcobo, Nzuza and Nduleni. Do you know that person, Ngoma Shelembe, that is the question.

MR SHELEMBE: No, I do not know any person by the name of Ngoma Shelembe.

CHAIRPERSON: Are there many Shelembes in that area, Mr Shelembe?

MR SHELEMBE: No, either three or four families.

CHAIRPERSON: And you know those other families do you, or don't you, the other Shelembes?

MR SHELEMBE: No, I do not know the other families except for my own.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: Sir, you have been associating over the past two days now with other families of victims in this matter, in your opinion what is their feeling towards the version that the applicant has put ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry to interrupt you, Ms Jelal - sorry, Mr Shelembe, but you were going through all the names, I think you haven't got to Siyanda Ngubane. So perhaps just for completeness' sake, if you can finish that.

MS JELAL: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Siyanda Ngubane, did you know him?

MR SHELEMBE: If we are referring to Mpopo Ngubane, then I do know that person.

MS JELAL: Do you have any idea if his name was Siyanda, because that is the only name that we have?

MR SHELEMBE: I do not know the name Siyanda, I just knew the name Mpopo, which I think was a nickname, but I do not know whether it is the same person.

MS JELAL: Mr Chair, could I perhaps ask the applicant's attorney to clarify that ...(indistinct)

MR SNYMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman, the applicant confirms it is the same person, therefore Mpopo Ngubane and Siyanda Ngubane is the same person.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

&#9;You've heard that, Mr Shelembe, apparently Siyanda Ngubane is in fact, went by the nickname of Mpopo.

MS JELAL: Sir, then do you know him and what was his political affiliation?

MR SHELEMBE: I do not know to what political organisation he was affiliated because the IFP was dominant in the area, so even if he was an ANC member it would be something that was done covertly.

MS JELAL: At the time when these killings were taking place, what did the people of the community think, who did they think was committing these murders?

MR SHELEMBE: The community believed that it was IFP hit squads who were committing these acts because they were the people who were dominant there.

MS JELAL: Sir, do you and the rest of the families of the victims believe that the applicant in this matter has disclosed the whole truth before this Committee?

MR SHELEMBE: I do not think that he has told everything that he's supposed to say.

MS JELAL: Do you agree that these acts were politically motivated?

MR SHELEMBE: No, I do not, it was just criminal offences that were committed to further the objectives of the IFP.

MS JELAL: So was it criminal - was it just a criminal element or were they trying to further the cause of the IFP?

MR SHELEMBE: I am uncertain as to whether they were fulfilling the objectives of the IFP, I am more inclined towards thinking that it was just criminal activities.

MS JELAL: No further questions, Mr Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR JELAL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Snyman, do you have any questions you'd like to ask Mr Shelembe?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SNYMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Shelembe, did you at the time when these people were killed, did you at that time during that period, live in the Table Mountain area on a daily basis?

MR SHELEMBE: If you are referring to the death of Nduleni Nzuza, Ngcobo and the others, yes, I was residing at the area at that time.

MR SNYMAN: Now during this period, 1990 to 1992, you say, you testified in your evidence-in-chief that there was a lot of political violence in the area, is that correct?

MR SHELEMBE: No, I said that from about 1990 to 1992, the violence had gone down because prior to that there was a incidence of violence, but during that time the violence had subsided but people were still being killing, in the sense that there was no fighting going on but you would still find dead bodies.

MR SNYMAN: Now the people that were killed, was it because of the violence between the IFP and the ANC?

MR SHELEMBE: I am inclined to disagree because people who were killed, people like Nzuza, were not exactly involved in politics, that is why I think it was more criminal than political.

MR SNYMAN: Mr Shelembe, I'm suggesting to you that at the time, that's 1990 to 1992, political violence between the ANC and the IFP was still rife in the Table Mountain area.

MR SHELEMBE: I disagree, it was not the violence between the ANC and the IFP, people would just be killed. That political violence was prevalent prior to 1990, during this time you would just find dead bodies and there was no fighting that was going on. 

MR SNYMAN: Of what did these people die then if it wasn't political fighting or fighting?

MR SHELEMBE: I think it was because of different reasons because the applicant himself has explained that a girlfriend of his was once involved, but it could have been for different reasons because if you just encounter a dead body the following morning there is no way that you can call that political.

MR SNYMAN: You know Mr Shelembe, I can recall a case in 1992 where people, while they were alighting from a taxi kombi, about eight or ten of them were simply shot dead at Table Mountain, just because they belonged to a different political party than the attacker, political violence was still very rife then.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you recall that incident referred to by Mr Snyman, Mr Shelembe?

MR SHELEMBE: Yes, I do recall, I do recall that incident, but I do not know whether you can call encountering dead bodies in the morning as being politically motivated, because I think that political violence involves fighting between two different groups ...(intervention)

PUBLIC DISTURBANCE

CHAIRPERSON: Please give the witness an opportunity.

MR SNYMAN: I put it to you that all the people killed by the applicant, whom he mentioned in his evidence, were killed because of the political rivalry between the ANC and the IFP.

MR SHELEMBE: That is what you say, but it does not all add up because the applicant himself has testified to the effect that his girlfriend was involved in one incident. In my opinion it was just criminal acts that were committed to further the aims of the IFP.

ADV SANDI: Can you explain what were those aims of the IFP?

MR SHELEMBE: From the applicant's testimony it involved girlfriends and other matters, because even my brother was an IFP member and the applicant himself was an IFP member, that is why I say it cannot be political.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you're saying, Mr Shelembe, is that after 1990 many dead bodies were found and yet there was no apparent reason why they had been killed, no message had been sent by the killing of those people by the killers?

MR SHELEMBE: Yes, that is correct, that started a long time ago, prior to this it was only the IFP that existed in this area. Even if there were some people who were affiliated to the ANC, they were not public, they did not go public about that information, it was the IFP who dominated the area.

MR SNYMAN: No further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SNYMAN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Thabethe, do you have any questions you'd like to ask Mr Shelembe?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Just two, Mr Chair, thank you.

&#9;Mr Shelembe, I just want to clarify something you said earlier on. When you were asked who you think was killing the people in the area, you said ...(Zulu) Inkatha, why would ...(Zulu) Inkatha kill people in the area? Or why do you think Ouma Shabu ...(Zulu) Inkatha were killing people in the area?

MR SHELEMBE: First let me explain that the Kanyezeni area was dominated by the IFP, therefore their killing these people must have been motivated by personal grudges. 

MS THABETHE: You see why I want to clarify this is because on the one hand you are saying it was criminal activities and on the other hand you are saying it was Inkatha killing these people, so I'm trying to reconcile the two. I don't quite understand now what did the community think, who was killing these people.

MR SHELEMBE: Yes, I did say that it was criminal activities, but even as an IFP member there is that possibility and an IFP member is capable of carrying out criminal activities outside the objectives of that party.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Jelal, do you have any re-examination?

MS JELAL: No, Mr Chair.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MS JELAL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Malan, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

MR MALAN: I'm not sure, Chair.

&#9;Mr Shelembe, did you say somewhere in your statement that the family suspected you, or are I mistaken? Okay, thank you, then I have no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sandi?

ADV SANDI: Mr Shelembe, do you know if there was any conflict between whatever clan or family that existed there, was there any tribal faction that you know of?

MR SHELEMBE: Please repeat that.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if there were people there who were fighting each other as families, people who were just opposed to each other for reasons which had nothing to do with politics but just family disputes or clans fighting each other?

CHAIRPERSON: That is during the relevant period, 1990 to 1992.

MR SHELEMBE: The one incident that I recall relates to the applicant's family, that was the death of his father.

ADV SANDI: Can you tell us more about that, what was involved in that incident?

MR SHELEMBE: It is difficult for me to explain because I was not present, I do not have the details of the incident, I do not know what the reasons were.

ADV SANDI: Were people free to walk at night in that area, during the time in question?

MR SHELEMBE: It was difficult to walk around in the area during that time, for the reason that from the period that there was violence in the area it became difficult to move around.

ADV SANDI: Would that have had anything to do with whether one was ANC or IFP? Was this a situation affecting everyone, regardless of political affiliation?

MR SHELEMBE: I would say it was a problem that was faced by certain people. As I mentioned before, the area was dominated by the IFP, so other people may have felt it risky or dangerous to walk around at night.

ADV SANDI: If one walks around at night, would that have created a perception or impression that that person was a member of any specific political organisation?

MR SHELEMBE: Please repeat that question.

ADV SANDI: If a person walked around in that area during the time in question, do you know if there was any specific impression or perception that this person must be an ANC member to be able to walk around? Do you know if there was such a perception in that area?

MR SHELEMBE: I think a person who had a right to walk around freely around there would be an IFP member because that was the organisation that was dominant in the area, so you would expect members of the IFP to be able to move around freely at night.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Shelembe. Thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shelembe, do you know the place, the area where Mr Ndluli and Mr Nzuza and also Mr Ngcobo were killed?

MR SHELEMBE: Yes, it happened on a road, it was on the route towards the Zimo tea-room.

CHAIRPERSON: Now the applicant in his evidence said that the place where they were killed, particularly Nduleni and Nzuza, was a no-go area for the IFP, what do you say to that statement?

MR SHELEMBE: I deny that, the IFP moved freely around the area of Kanyezeni because they were the dominant party in the area. I deny that there was a no-go area.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by Members of the Panel?

MS JELAL: No, Mr Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS JELAL

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Snyman?

MR SNYMAN: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR SNYMAN

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shelembe, thank you very much, that concludes your testimony, thank you.

MR SHELEMBE: I thank you too.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Jelal?

MS JELAL: That concludes the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: The evidence for the victims. So there's no further evidence in this matter. Mr Snyman, are you in a position to make submissions?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed.

MR SNYMAN IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, I must indeed say it's a difficult matter to argue or to make submissions on because as I conveyed to the applicant also, he made matters difficult for himself in his evidence. But be that as it may, he applies for amnesty in respect of eight murders of which most of them were taking place at different occasions. I respectfully submit, Mr Chairman and Honourable Members, that the background against which these murders were committed is very important. The incident happened from 1990 to 1992 in Kwanyavu and the Table Mountain area near Pietermaritzburg. 

&#9;Just as a matter of interest, if you're driving from Pietermaritzburg to Durban, as you're getting on the N3, just as you're on the outskirts of Pietermaritzburg and you look to your left you'll see a long mountain, it doesn't look like Table Mountain in Cape Town but still it looks like a table mountain, and that's the area that we are referring to. It's unfortunate that violence was so rife there because it's a beautiful area.

&#9;In spite of what the previous witness said, Mr Chairman, it was common knowledge at the time and it still is in this area, that from 1990 to 1992 and even after that, political violence between the ANC and the IFP was very rife, people were killed during that period on a daily basis and just about all those killings were linked to political violence. That area Mr Chairman, was a boiling pot of political unrest and the tension between IFP and Inkatha(sic) supporters was very high. &#9;Mr Chairman, it was also common knowledge at the time and still is, as the applicant testified, that people were simply killed because he belonged to a different political party than that of the attacker. Now that is the area in which the applicant lived, he was a member or a supporter of the IFP, the IFP at the time was and still is a publicly known political organisation, there was a serious political struggle between the IFP and the ANC. The applicant, Mr Chairman, had no doubt that his victims were ANC members or ANC supporters and his motive and his objective was to eliminate them so that the IFP could win the elections in that area.

&#9;I will now deal shortly with each murder, firstly, the killing of Cebo Majola in 1990. The applicant had according to him, had reliable information that the deceased had knowledge about his father's murder, he knew the deceased was an ANC supporter and he knew that he was involved in political activities and that he apparently received weapons from his Chief. That he testified to when he was cross-examined. He testified that he received instructions to kill Cebo Majola, from the IFP Chairman from that area. I respectfully submit, Mr Chairman, that he made a full disclosure of what happened and he also showed remorse and apologised for his actions.

&#9;The next killing is that of Simiso Bhengu, which happened in 1992. Applicant knew that the deceased was an ANC member or an ANC supporter and he received information from Vukani that the deceased had been involved in an attack on his house. That he says in his affidavit and further in his evidence. When he was cross-examined he said Bhengu also at a previous occasion fired shots at him.

&#9;He fully described how Bhengu was killed. He told the Committee where he received his instructions from. He told us who his co-perpetrators were, by mentioning their names. He told the Committee where the firearms came from and where they were kept prior to the attack. I respectfully submit, Mr Chairman, that he made a full disclosure and that at the end he also apologised for his actions and showed remorse.

&#9;The next incident is the killing of Shorty Nduleni, Bheki Nzuza, Ngoma Shelembe and Manglethu Ngcobo. Now I must conceded from the outset that the evidence of the applicant is somewhat confusing as to exactly what happened, when did it happen and so on, especially in respect of the killing of Ngoma Shelembe. But also there, be it as it may Mr Chairman, I respectfully submit that the applicant made out a case that this was political violence, he told the Committee fully exactly what happened, he said all the deceased were ANC supporters of ANC members. 

&#9;I respectfully submit that he made a full disclosure of what happened and he said that his objective was to eliminate the ANC supporters and we later heard that there was a standing instruction to kill ANC members wherever they were encountered and this is exactly what he did. It is also important to note, and I want to emphasise that, that he at a certain stage when he was cross-examined, said that "we were in a war situation with them". &#9;Mr Chairman, the next incident is the killing of Sishle Mkhize and Siyanda Ngubane. In his affidavit on page 24 of the indexed papers the applicant said that it happened at the same time, but in his evidence he described it as two different incidents, two different occasions. Be that as it may, Mr Chairman, the applicant admitted that he had killed them. Sishle Mkhize, the first deceased, was pointed out to him by his girlfriend as one who attacked her and abducted her. He was an ANC member and the ANC saw this at the time as that this was directed at him and therefore a decision was made by his leaders to kill Sishle. 

&#9;I must concede it is difficult to see the political motive behind this, but I can't take it any further than submitting that the applicant said that he saw this as being directed at him by an ANC member.

&#9;The death of Siyanda Ngubane, he apparently took part in an attack on his house, on the applicant's house when his house was burnt down, his informant who was an ANC member, Vukani, once again told him that Siyanda was present during this attack and therefore he was killed.

&#9;I respectfully submit in respect of the murder of Siyanda Ngubane, applicant made a full disclosure of what happened and this must also be seen against the background of the situation in the area at the time, that the ANC and the IFP were in a war, engaged in a war so to speak and that they were killing each other.

&#9;Mr Chairman, lastly, the murder the Ndabo Ngcamu(?). He apparently gave the police information that the applicant was keeping firearms in his house, the police searched his house but they did not find anything. 

&#9;Applicant described this incident, saying that it was political because had the police found any firearms in his house it would have made the task of the IFP more difficult to conquer ANC, that more-or-less the tenor of his evidence, and therefore he saw this as a political act and therefore Ndabo Ngcamu was killed.

&#9;I respectfully submit Mr Chairman, that he made a full disclosure of the killings and that there is some sort of political motive behind it. I therefore respectfully submit that the applicant be granted amnesty in respect of all these killings. Those are my submissions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Snyman. Ms Jelal, do you have any submissions you'd like to make?

MS JELAL IN ARGUMENT: Yes, Mr Chair.

&#9;Members of the Committee, my learned colleague, members of the public, it is my instructions from the families of the victims to inform this Committee that they verily believe that the applicant has fabricated the reasons for the killings in this matter. He killed members of his own party, he killed because somebody had interfered with his girlfriend, he killed those who he thought to be linked with his father's murder and he did all of this because of information he received. 

&#9;Throughout his evidence he has never once shown to this Committee that he had firsthand information of the other persons' political affiliations, he even to a large extent has tried to act ignorant of the other parties' political affiliations. For instance, Mr Manglethu Ngcobo, he maintains he knows him, he then went on to say that he was supplying firearms to the ANC, but he never once conceded that Mr Ngcobo was an IFP member.

&#9;It is impossible to see how these killings could have furthered the cause of the political party because all of these killings seemed to have somehow in some way affected the applicant's life personally and not the general public at large.

&#9;My clients in the circumstances, maintain that the applicant has not made full disclosure. Further to that he cannot remember exactly when the incidences occurred, there was some confusion regarding the Shelembe matter and then we went onto the Ndabo Ngcamu matter, there was confusion there when he was questioned as to exactly what occurred or transpired when Ngcamu was killed, he went to describe the event or the incident that he gave us a reason for the killing of Siyanda Ngubane. He started giving that story, instead of relating exactly what happened in this specific incident. Then we had the case of his girlfriend where he maintains she was attacked on two separate occasions and there was a question of identity, he maintains that the girlfriend described Sishle Mkhize to him and then immediately clicked as to who Sishle Mkhize was, but then later on he went on to say that she told him who - she saw Sishle Mkhize and she pointed him out. There were a whole lot of irregularities in his evidence. 

&#9;And over and above that, from the papers that we have before us and more especially the affidavit submitted by the families of the victims, it is blatantly obvious that some of the families could not say for certain which political parties the victims belonged to, but in other instances they belonged to exactly the same political party as the applicant belonged to.

&#9;Mr Chairperson, in the circumstances it is submitted that the families of the victims would not like for the applicant to get amnesty, but would leave the matter entirely in the hands of this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Ms Thabethe, any submissions?

MS THABETHE: I have nothing further to add, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Snyman, do you have any reply?

MR SNYMAN: No reply, Mr Chairman, thank you.

NO REPLY BY MR SNYMAN

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, we will reserve our decision in this matter with the view of handing it down as soon as possible. That brings this hearing to a conclusion. I'd like to thank the legal representatives, Ms Jelal, Ms Thabethe and Mr Snyman, for their assistance in this matter, thank you very much.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Should we take a short adjournment now before we proceed with the next matter or are we ready to proceed straight away? I think perhaps we'll take a short adjournment to let the legal representatives get ready. Thank you, we'll take a short adjournment and then proceed with the next matter.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We will now commence with the next matter. Which matter is that, Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: It's the matter of Majola, Mr Chairman.

NAME:&#9;SEFISO CEDRIC SBISI (MAJOLA)

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM2941/96

MATTER: &#9;NECKLACING OF RADEBE, MURDER OF &#9;&#9;&#9;PUMZILE MBONGWA AND SITHOLE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: If I could at this stage kindly ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, my name is Dehal, Roshan Dehal from a firm Dehal Incorporated in Durban, I represent the applicant, Mr Majola, in this matter. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dehal.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman, the name is Mr Panday. I represent the victim's family, that of Thomsile Bongwa(?)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Panday.

MS THABETHE: Thank you Mr Chair, my name is Thabile Thabethe, I'm the Evidence Leader for the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe. Mr Dehal, is Mr Majola going to be giving evidence?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, that's correct, he will testify. I propose doing it in the following manner, I'll probably get him to confirm aspects of the bundle that's now before us and read a statement in, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dehal. I'll swear the applicant in.

SIFISO CEDRIC MAJOLA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Thank you. Mr Chairman, as - sorry, firstly, I have formulated a statement duly typed and signed by the applicant, Mr Majola, I caused copies to be handed over, I understand that all the Members and legal representatives are now in possession of a copy.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday, you have a copy. 

MR PANDAY: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we then receive this statement, this typed statement that's just been handed in and we'll call it Exhibit A.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Chairperson, just one clarifying comment before we begin, Mr Sifiso Cedric Majola indicates that his name Majola is not correct, he's in fact known as Sbisi as would be evident from the affidavit within the bundle, page 18, Sbisi, S-b-i-s-i. It was an affidavit that was taken from him some time ago. That the name, Majola is incorrect. It so happened that certain complainants in the earlier criminal trial of his, incorrectly referred to him as Majola, he was incorrectly so indicted and apparently inasmuch as he took issue with the surname, it stuck since then.

CHAIRPERSON: And then I take it he is in prison under the name Majola, rather than Sbisi.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, no, what happened is that when he got to prison he actually entered prison under the name Majola, but took issue with that at the prison and managed to rectify it. He's now got in his pocket a prison little book in which his name is recorded as Sifiso Cedric Sbisi. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. I think then, Mr Sbisi, we'll call you by your name, not by your false name. So we'll refer to the applicant as Mr Sbisi.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. May I then just ask that Exhibit A be amended. You will notice that it's signed on the last page as Majola Sbisi, a signature that has been forced upon him by the prison authorities and during his trial, so that the name Majola be extracted from the heading and from the tramlines and the name Sbisi to be replaced therewith.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I take it there's no objection to that amendment.

MR PANDAY: No, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, those amendments will therefore be made and wherever the name Majola appears in any of the documentation, be it in the bundle or in this exhibit, we will delete reference to Majola and substitute it with Sbisi.

MR DEHAL: I'm indebted to you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dehal?

EXAMINATION BY MR DEHAL: Thank you, Sir.

&#9;Mr Sbisi, I have a single copy of the bundle, if I may just place it here before us, between us. Do you confirm the pages 1 to 10, interpreted on pages 11 to 17, as being your application for amnesty?

MR SBISI: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: Do you confirm - sorry, firstly, were you assisted in the formulation, in the completion of this amnesty application?

MR SBISI: No, nobody assisted me.

MR DEHAL: May I draw your attention to paragraph (b) on page 11 of the interpreted aspect, where you say -

&#9;&#9;"I was the ANC Committee Member in Estcourt"

Do you see that? Do you confirm that?

CHAIRPERSON: Paragraph 7B?

MR SBISI: Yes, I do see it.

MR DEHAL: And on page 12, paragraph 9(a)(iv), is it correct that what you have recorded therein is correct, namely your ANC involvement and how you became to be arrested with murder, attempted murder etc?

MR SBISI: Please repeat that.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I'm having some difficulty with the channel for the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: It should be on channel 2, Mr Dehal.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, I'm indebted to you.

&#9;Okay, then I take you to page 13, you'll see at the bottom of paragraph 10(a) you say that you are an ANC - sorry, you used to teach persons in the ANC doctrines etc., and everyone that was close to the ANC.

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: And that on the next page you say that the object for which you were part of the ANC and so taught it’s doctrines, was to free the country of apartheid as a crime.

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: And rather than reading all of it into the record, (b) therefore details three paragraphs which records your justification regarding these acts and omissions or offences, as having an associated political objective. Do you confirm that?

MR SBISI: Yes.

MR DEHAL: More importantly I take you now to pages 18 of the bundle to pages 20, do you confirm that this is an affidavit of yours and that the contents thereof are indeed correct? And more importantly that this affidavit deals with the various counts for which you seek amnesty.

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Thank you. Now in addition to that affidavit you have caused to be prepared through your lawyers, a further document which you have before you, Exhibit A, will you please read that into the record, but please read it slowly because of the interpretation.

MR SBISI: 

&#9;&#9;"I am an adult male. I was born and brought up at Hammarsdale and subsequently on moved to Estcourt. I was employed as a barman at the Drakensberg Sun from 1987 up to '92. As from '90, I used to listen to the Radio Zulu. I heard about the different leaders and the ANC policies."

MR DEHAL: Is it correct that then you indicated your mental desire to join the party, the ANC, because you had agreed with the ANC's doctrines?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: You then say that you began to attend political ANC meetings in Estcourt - that means in paragraph 3, that you embraced the ideals of the ANC and its armed wing of MK. Do you see that and do you confirm that?

MR SBISI: Yes, that is correct.

MR DEHAL: Did you understand the MK as being the armed wing of the ANC, otherwise known as Umkhonto weSizwe?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: You then add that during the year 1990, a person by the name of Mapandla Dlamini, came to your home and he educated you further about the policies of the ANC.

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: I take you now to paragraph 4. Do you see that there you say that during 1991 there were many marches held in the area, that these marches were dominated by the Inkatha Freedom Party, that a meeting was called with the Chief in the Bhekuzulu(?) area and that at the meeting the Chief's assistant, a person whose name you had forgotten, indicated that they did not want any people wearing ANC T-shirts, they were adamant that the area belonged to the Inkatha Freedom Party. At the meeting the Chief's assistant also indicated that you and the others with you must take your weapons and go to the Wembezi area and kill all the people that belonged to the ANC. Do you see that and do you confirm that?

MR SBISI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Sorry for interrupting. What was the name of the Chief of Bhekuzulu area?

MR SBISI: Mr M J Radebe.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Sir.

&#9;I then take you to paragraph 5 of your affidavit. There you say that when you and the others questioned the Chief as to why you should kill people, he indicated that you should help the other IFP people as they are resident in the IFP area, correct?

MR SBISI: We questioned the Chief as to why he allowed that situation to prevail in the area because he was non ...(indistinct).

MR DEHAL: Yes, and then in the next paragraph you deal with that aspect of question, you say that you also indicated that all those who did not agree with the IFP in the Bhekuzulu area, must move out from the area together with their parents and family, that they did not want any members who did not belong to the IFP, to live in the Bhekuzulu area. That evening there was a march by the youth of the IFP, you refused to join the march, you together with your friends ran away and refused to join the march. Do you confirm that?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: And then you go to paragraph 7 where you say, at that stage as you had not participated in the march, your house was burnt.

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Was your house burnt down or was it partially burnt?

MR SBISI: It was one bedroom that was burnt, so it was just burnt partially.

MR DEHAL: You then continue to say that the IFP members then began chasing other people who did not support their march and their cause, there was a lot of violence in the area, this was now a continuous problem during '90, 1991 and 1992, and was daily a matter of life and death a question of political survival. Correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Then you continue in paragraph 8 to say that during 1992 there was an election and you and others began canvassing for the elections, you assisted in putting up ANC posters in the Bhekuzulu area. It is at this stage that members of the IFP realised that you were an ardent ANC supporter. Do you see that and do you confirm that?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: You say that these people then accused you that you had returned from Hammarsdale to Estcourt to campaign for the ANC. You and others then formed your own group of ANC supporters. Correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: You continue to say that you together with Sipho Mandla Dlamini, were chosen by the youth as the leaders of the group, you were all then accepted as part of the SDU Self Defence Unit, responsible for the protection of the members being attacked and killed by the enemy. Correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Now who was the Commander of this SDU Unit?

MR SBISI: I was the Commander.

MR DEHAL: And did you give instructions for the various operations to be carried out?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Thank you. Then you continue to paragraph 9 where you say, at that stage the violence was increasingly rife in the area, IFP members were attacking homes and people belonging to the ANC. Despite reports made to the police, the police were not helping. It was then decided that you and others will take the law into your own hands, as the people were making reports of violence to the police but the police were not interested. It was clear to you and others that the police were siding with the IFP and were against you and others in the ANC. Correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Then in paragraph 10 you say that sometimes during 1992, the police brought in a special unit to assist with the violence in the area, that this unit however was once again supporting the IFP and were against the members of the ANC, especially the youth, who were continuously being arrested, harassed, by members of this special unit as well. Correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Then in the next paragraph you deal with one of your counts for which you seek amnesty against that background. You say that on or about - actually that should be on or about, the 25th December 1993, you together with a few other members of the ANC, namely S Dlamini, were seated in a bottle store. 

&#9;At this stage you said you must add that Jabulani Radebe who was the Chief Assistant during 1993, he was an active supporter of the IFP, was seated at the bar. Jabulani Radebe's son came into the bar with a spear and a home-made firearm. The comrades who were sitting with you caught hold of Jabulani Radebe's son and disarmed him of the home-made firearm. They assaulted him and stabbed him with his own spear. 

&#9;Mr Radebe's son ran away. Jabulani Radebe however, arrived at the scene, he helped to get his son to hospital, you and the others then decided to attack him as well, as he was a prominent member and had a stronghold of the people who stood for Inkatha Freedom. They crowded ...(indistinct), chased Jabulani Radebe, who then ran into Dladla's kraal. You then spoke to Dladla and insisted that he must hand over Radebe to you. At that stage you and the others seized Radebe and took him into Bhekuzulu School. Do you agree with all of that?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just before you proceed, Mr Dehal. &#9;This Mr Jabulani Radebe that you're talking about here, you say he was the Assistant to the Chief, M J Radebe, is that right? Or is it the same person?

MR DEHAL: As I understand it, Mr Chairperson, an Assistant, yes. Unless I'm incorrect, perhaps I should ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. What was the relationship between the Chief, M J Radebe and Jabulani Radebe, who you're describing here?

MR SBISI: They shared the same surname and the other one was the assistant to the Chief, he was the Induna to the Chief.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Sbisi, you then confirm that paragraph and all of those as correct, do you? The paragraph that we've just read up to here, that's paragraph 11.

MR SBISI: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: You then continue in paragraph 12, to say that at the school you forced Radebe to drink petrol. Sipho Mandla placed a tyre around Mr Radebe's neck and you filled a tyre with petrol as well, you then ignited the petrol, you and the others then all dispersed from the scene, this incident having occurred between 9 to 9pm. Do you confirm that?

MR SBISI: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: In paragraph 13 you say that the next morning you got up and went to the scene at about 4a.m., you saw the tyre but you did not see the charred body. You heard on the radio thereafter that a man known as Beku Zulu was burnt and was taken to hospital with critical burn wounds. Since that date you were afraid ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I think you said a man known as Bhekuzulu, a man in Bhekuzulu was killed.

MR DEHAL: I'm indebted to you, sorry, I apologise. 

&#9;A man in Bhekuzulu was burnt and was taken to hospital with critical burn wounds. Since that date you were scared and began hiding from the police. Do you remember that, confirm that?

MR SBISI: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: In the next paragraph you say that you are very sorry about what happened to Mr Radebe, however this incident you say occurred at the time when the violence was rife between the ANC and Inkatha members and this country was in a state of war and you were all forced to protect yourselves. Mr Radebe was an active representative of the Inkatha people and it is for this reason that this action was taken against him. He was seen as a legitimate target by the ANC, by the people and yourself. Correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: In paragraph 15 you say that one - sorry, on the 23rd - sorry, that should be "on", I apologise, on the 23rd January 1994, all the comrades in the area became aware that the eldest son of Emily Nkadene Mbongwa, was an active IFP member. He was responsible for the deaths of many ANC members. He was identified as a legitimate target by the Self Defence Units - sorry, that should be "Self", and the ANC. By this time the comrades in the area had accumulated a few firearms. "We had formed ourselves into an SDU Unit and regarded ourselves as MK Unit within South Africa". Do you confirm that?

MR SBISI: Yes.

MR DEHAL: Now if I may just pause there. You had not received specific MK training, did you?

MR SBISI: I did not receive training externally but I did get training internally.

MR DEHAL: And you being a Commander of the SDU Unit, was pursuant to training in that regard.

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: And as I understand what you have said here, you regarded your SDU Unit as a wing of MK within the country, armed to protect the people. Is that correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Sorry, and the training that you say you received within the country as an MK member, what type of training was that?

MR SBISI: With regards to the training, we were trained by a certain person in the use of firearms.

MR DEHAL: And were you educated politically as to what are legitimate targets, how to ...(indistinct) upon informers, the attitude of the ANC on necklacing and aspects of that sort?

MR SBISI: We were not informed on targets, but we were trained in the use of firearms such as AK47s.

MR DEHAL: Were you required to source out and identify and deal with targets on your own according to your own discretion as Commander of the SDU Unit?

MR SBISI: Yes, it was at our discretion as elected persons in the Bhekuzulu area.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but Mr Majola, Mr Sbisi, sorry, you said that you were considered or you at least considered yourselves to be an MK Unit operating in that area and you as the SDU considered yourself to be an MK Unit, did you receive any political education about the policies of the ANC, what they are, what the ANC stands for, what it is striving for, how to conduct themselves etc., did you get any training in that regard?

MR SBISI: No, what we did learn was from the media, the newspapers and the radio.

CHAIRPERSON: So how then would you determine what was a legitimate target and what was not a legitimate target? Was for instance, robbing a bottle store a legitimate target?

MR SBISI: No, it wouldn't be legitimate.

CHAIRPERSON: And what about robbing a bottle store that was owned by an IFP person, would that be a legitimate target?

MR SBISI: If that person was an IFP member and responsible for killing ANC members, then it would be legitimate to rob that person's shop.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Dehal.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Sbisi, may I just take you back just for that purpose, to paragraph 3 here. Do you recall saying that you began political ANC meetings in Estcourt and that you embraced the ideals of the ANC and its armed wing, MK, and that during 1990 this person known as Mpamandla Dlamini came to your home and he educated you further about the policies of the ANC? Do you recall that?

MR SBISI: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: And here in paragraph 15 you are dealing with an incident on the 23rd of January 1994, when you were already a Commander of the SDU Unit and MK as you understood it, which is well after all this education of yours at the instance of Dlamini, correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Okay, then in paragraph 15 you continue to say -

&#9;&#9;"It was planned at a meeting of ours that six persons will go to the Mbongwa house and kill the eldest son by shooting him. The six people who were to have gone were Manku Radebe, Nozwe Ndumo, Lendelani and three other youths. Two AK47s were used (sorry) issued to these people and some of them were to carry petrol bombs. The people left at about 8p.m. They returned at 10p.m. to say that they had killed the son of Mbongwa. The operation was considered a success."

Do you remember that and do you confirm this?

MR SBISI: Yes, I do confirm that.

MR DEHAL: Did you issue these two AK47s?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Did you issue the petrol bombs?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Then in paragraph 16 you say -

&#9;&#9;"I heard the next day to my great surprise, that a young girl died at the home and that the house was badly burnt. I then checked the firearms and noted that one firearm was fully loaded and the second firearm had two used cartridges. I then enquired as to what happened, when I was assured that Mbongwa's son was killed. I subsequently tried to hide away from the police. I was arrested in January 1994. In this incident, although I was responsible for the planning of the incident, the obtaining of the firearms and for handing over the firearms for the incident, I certainly did not go to the house."

You then say -

&#9;&#9;"I do however take full political responsibility for the act, as I had authorised the killing of Mbongwa's eldest son."

Do you confirm that?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Dehal, if I may just ask a question here, arising out of this paragraph.

&#9;Is there any reason Mr Sbisi, why you yourself didn't go on the operation? Taking into account the fact that you had received training in the use of firearms etc., why didn't you form part of the operative unit that carried out the attack?

MR SBISI: The reason was that we used to work in different groups and shifts in protecting the community. On that night I was on patrol, therefore I had to rest the following day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: I know I'm skipping the paragraphs, but may I take you to paragraph 19. Do you see that paragraph there? Is it not correct that you say that you are however adamant that you did not attend the scene on the night of the burning, of the killing, that is that night of the 23rd January 1994, on that night you were standing guard at the Bhekuzulu area to avoid any attack by the Inkatha people, and to acquire a restful night's sleep? That's because you were on guard the night before as well, correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR MALAN: May I interrupt there. I don't understand this paragraph, specifically because you also had it in pen there. How does one stand guard during the night and sleep at the same time? Why did you add that in there?

CHAIRPERSON: Were you sleeping on guard duty?

MR SBISI: We used to work in shifts. If somebody had been on night duty, the following day it would be somebody else.

MR MALAN: Yes, but you could have gone on this operation, it would have taken you two hours there and back, if we look at the time it took the rest of the group, and you could have slept the rest of the night. Why did you not go along, just tell us briefly, don't look at this paragraph now, tell us why did you not go along. Were you sleeping, were you standing guard, or is there another reason?

MR SBISI: I stayed behind with other comrades keeping guard because the IFP used to attack from all angles.

MR MALAN: Now can you explain the portion referring to a "restful night's sleep".

MR SBISI: As I explained before, our policy was to work in shifts, so yes, I should have been resting on that night but because I was concerned for the safety of our comrades and the community I did not.

MR MALAN: So you did not sleep that night, is that what you're telling us?

MR SBISI: Yes, I did not.

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;I take you back to paragraph 16 where we stopped. Do you see that? You continue to say that you heard the next day to your great surprise, that a young girl died at the home and that the house was badly burnt ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think he's - you've finished paragraph 16, yes. 

MR DEHAL: Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Start with 17.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

&#9;Paragraph 17 at the bottom you say people in the area knew of you because you were one of the active ANC leaders in the area, and then you continue on paragraph 18, to say that however, you are sorry about the death of the young child, Pumzile Mbongwa, she was not the intended target. With regard to the damage to Mrs Mbongwa's property as well you do apologise. 

&#9;All this occurred you say, at a time when violence was rife and there was serious ongoing fighting between members of the Inkatha Freedom Party and the ANC. You say the only reason this home was targeted was because the eldest son was an active and ardent IFP supporter and was involved in violence against the ANC, causing the deaths of several ANC members and damage to property. He was identified as a legitimate target. Do you confirm that?

MR SBISI: Yes, I do.

MR DEHAL: You then go on to say in paragraph 20, you once again apologise for your acts or all your acts, at that stage many people died, including lots of ANC people, you however had lost a secure job which you had with the Drakensberg Sun, correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: In paragraph 21 you then deal with the other incident for which you seek amnesty and you say the following -

&#9;&#9;"I was involved in another incident for which I seek amnesty, when one Kamanati Sithole was shot and killed."

This incident you say occurred in September 1993. "Mr Sithole and Mr Jabulani Radebe worked together in propagating violence by the IFP against the members of the ANC." 

&#9;You together with approximately four of five youths went out looking for Mr Sithole, you all found him at his house, you knocked at the window, Mr Sithole opened the curtain, all of you were armed with AK47s, you all then shot through the window. Your intentions generally were to kill Kamanati. You heard the next morning that he was seriously injured and he was taken to hospital by ambulance. You say you were not charged for this offence, but you wish to make full disclosure of this and apply for amnesty. That you all regarded Mr Sithole as a legitimate target and that you acted as SDU members and as the untrained internal wing of the MK. Correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: By untrained here you mean not trained outside the country, is that correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: You end up by saying that you apologise for all your acts and the injuries, deaths or damage to property. You would not have so acted had the country not been in the thick of such heavy daily violence and murders. With all of you getting no help from the police or any other source you were forced to defend yourselves, you are deeply remorseful and wish to reconcile with all those who were affected and their family members. Is that correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: Thank you. Now just before we finish, Mr Sbisi, this affidavit which you confirmed earlier, which is contained within the bundle, pages 18, 19 and 20, can you please tell this Committee how it came about that you made this affidavit. When was it made and who took this from you?

MR SBISI: I arrived here on Friday from Johannesburg Prison, a certain lady arrived and informed me that I was requested to appear before the TRC, that she had arrived to take a statement from me. She asked me several questions to which I responded and after that she left. And she informed me that she would fax a letter to the prison authorities as to when my date of appearance before the TRC would be.

MR DEHAL: And you did not have a lawyer assisting you at the time, correct? It was just a matter between you and the TRC lady.

MR SBISI: Yes, it was just the two of us.

CHAIRPERSON: And you didn't sign - did you sign anything or did she just ask questions and record them, what was the situation? I don't see any, although it's called an affidavit, I don't see any signatures, I don't know if this is just merely a typed copy of some other document. Did you sign anything, Mr Sbisi, this last Friday, on the 22nd?

MR SBISI: I did sign some three or four pages.

MR DEHAL: In any case you confirm ...(intervention)

MR SBISI: It was P21 documents that were hand-written.

CHAIRPERSON: So this is probably just a typed version of some hand-written statement.

MR DEHAL: You confirmed already however, that this affidavit is correct, isn't that so? Anyway, I now take you to - sorry, may I just find ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: Sorry, Mr Chairman, just to interject. My learned colleague's question confirming whether the affidavit is on page 18, 19 and 20 is correct. I think he was waiting answer from the ...

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Panday.

&#9;Mr Sbisi, do you confirm the contents of the affidavit which you recently signed, the one, the typed copy which appears on pages 18, 19 and 20 of the bundle? Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit to be correct?

MR DEHAL: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I don't intend to interject, but at the beginning of his evidence he confirmed this as correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I think this is just what Mr Panday was asking.

&#9;Is that correct?

MR SBISI: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Thank you. Now finally, you are presently in prison, having been sentenced to an effective 30 year imprisonment for the four counts which are contained on page 21, being the indictment, being attempted murder, murder, attempted murder and arson, for the acts for which you now sought amnesty, correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR DEHAL: That is the evidence, Mr Chairperson, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DEHAL

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sorry just before I ask Mr Panday, Mr Sbisi, with regard to that last answer of yours, that you apply for amnesty in respect of all the offences for which you were convicted, which appear in the indictment, is there any reason why you didn't mention those other matters in your application form? You mention Jabulani Radebe or Hadebe - is it Hadebe or Radebe, Radebe, but you don't mention Pumzile and ...(intervention)

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, if you look at page 13 of the bundle, under ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: You mentioned page 12 has got Dlamini ...(intervention)

MR DEHAL: ... he says Radebe and Pumzile Mbongwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I suppose so. It's just that it's not very clear.

MR DEHAL: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, no, there's nothing in that. Mr Panday?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Sbisi, before we go into your evidence, you mention that a person from the TRC approached you and questioned you on certain aspects, is that correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Did you understand her on all of the aspects that she questioned you?

MR SBISI: Yes, I did understand because she spoke my language.

MR PANDAY: And had you had an attorney present, would your response have been any different from the answers you gave her?

MR SBISI: I regarded her as somebody I could trust, therefore I responded to her questions truthfully.

MR PANDAY: Right. Now Mr Sbisi, do you maintain that with regards to the incident on the Mbongwa family you were not present on the day of the attack?

MR SBISI: Yes, I do maintain that. When the house was attacked I was not present.

MR PANDAY: Right. Mr Sbisi, I'm going to refer you to page 28 of the bundle of documents and I'm going to quote from the judgment.

CHAIRPERSON: This, Mr Sbisi, is the judgment from your trial.

MR PANDAY: Do you recall the witness, Emily Mbongwa? That was the mother of Pumzile Mbongwa.

MR SBISI: Yes, I do.

MR PANDAY: Do you recall the judge regarded her as an outstanding witness?

MR SBISI: I do not recall the judge saying she was an outstanding witness, but he did say that he was not going to believe anything that I said.

MR PANDAY: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: I can confirm that in the judgment the judge said Emily Mbongwa was an outstanding witness. This appears on page 28.

MR PANDAY: May I proceed, Mr Chairman?

&#9;Now Mr Sbisi, do you recall when you were arrested, on what day you were arrested?

MR SBISI: I do recall the date on which I was arrested, but when I explained it in court the investigator disputed the date and gave a fresh date which was accepted by the court.

MR PANDAY: And what date did the investigator give of your arrest?

MR DEHAL: Sorry, Mr Chairperson, I don't intend to be unfair, but my learned colleague, I thought the drift of his cross-examination was that in the event of him, that's in the event of Sbisi having now confirmed what the TRC lady had taken down in pages 18 to 20, and him having had no difficulties with talking to her, now seeking to deal with certain aspects from the earlier transcript. The one doesn't follow from the other firstly and secondly, the difficulty I have is that I have omitted to deal with this, I apologise, with the trial. My instructions were that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think let's hear what the questions are, I don't know what they're leading to. I don't think they're unfair or anything like that, Mr Dehal, he's merely asking straightforward questions, I can't see it being unfair. You may carry on Mr Panday.

MR DEHAL: No, sorry, Mr Chairperson, the contention was not that it's unfair, I was just placing on record that I have omitted an aspect, to deal with the transcript.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you'll be given a time to re-examine at the end, you can get into that at that time.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Do you recall the day that you were arrested on, what day were you arrested, Mr Sbisi?

MR SBISI: No, I do not recall, but I think it was on the 26th of January 1994.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, the mother of Pumzile Mbongwa, the girl that was killed by mistake, as you allege, if I had to put it to you that she identified you as being one of the people that attacked the Mbongwa residence, what would be your response to that?

MR SBISI: I maintain what I said in court, that that is not true.

MR PANDAY: So you maintain that you were not present on the day in question, is that correct?

MR SBISI: Yes, I was not present at the scene, but I have knowledge with regards to the planning.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, is it also correct in your evidence-in-chief, after there was doubt with regards to paragraph ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about evidence-in-chief here?

MR PANDAY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Not at the trial.

MR PANDAY: Yes. Do you recall when there was doubt with regards to paragraph 19 of the affidavit that was handed in as Exhibit A, you rectified the affidavit by saying that you were keeping guard duty on the day of the attack, is that correct?

MR SBISI: That is correct, I remained behind keeping guard.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, I'm going to take you back now to pages 18, 19 and 20 of the bundle of documents. Now bearing in mind that you (1), confirmed the contents of this to be true, (2), you trusted the official from the TRC who put certain questions to you regarding your incidents, I'm now going to ask you the following question, or rather refer you to the following paragraph. In explaining ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you can just home in on it for us.

MR PANDAY: If Mr Chairman will just bear with me, I will direct Mr Chairman.

&#9;In explaining as to why you did not attend the attack on the Mbongwa residence, you state the following in your affidavit - it's on page 19, the second paragraph, the fifth line. You distinctly say -

&#9;&#9;"I did not attend because I was sleeping after being on guard duty the last night."

Right. Now Mr Sbisi, would you now agree that that is in contradiction with paragraph 19 of the affidavit you handed in as Exhibit A, where you explain that you were in actual fact keeping guard duty?

MR SBISI: As I've already explained, we had a policy or working in shifts. On that night I was supposed to be sleeping, but because there had been many instances of people being attacked and killed, therefore I was fearful that something like that would happen to me as well, therefore I found it difficult to sleep because the situation was very serious at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: So then this is wrong, what's in this statement because here you say -

&#9;&#9;"I did not attend because I was sleeping"

... and now you're saying you had difficulty in sleeping. I think just let's - sorry, Mr Panday.

&#9;Did you go out and guard that night? Patrol?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: What time did you go out and patrol?

MR SBISI: Around half past eight because the people who had gone out on the attack had left at eight.

CHAIRPERSON: And what time did you get back from your guard duty or patrol?

MR SBISI: We used to patrol only the area that we resided or slept in. I would say that I was back by nine.

CHAIRPERSON: By nine. So you went out for about half an hour, a short time?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And what time did you go to sleep that night? - more-or-less. What I mean "go to sleep" I mean not get into bed and lie awake but when you actually fell asleep, what time would that have been more-or-less?

MR SBISI: I cannot specify the time because I forced to wake up for the people who had gone out to launch the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you stay awake until they came home?

MR SBISI: Yes, I did.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Panday.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, you first mentioned to us that you were first sleeping, that is why you did not go on the attack, then you mentioned to us that you could not sleep and you started to patrol, and you followed this by saying that you waited for the people to return about the attack. Now you are the leader of the MK in the area, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I think at least of the SDU, they regarded themselves as MK, whether they were or actually not, I don't know, but we'll call it SDU.

MR PANDAY: SDU. Is that correct, you were the leader of the SDU?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

MR PANDAY: Now how many people knew of the eldest son of the Mbongwa family? Who could identify him?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean of the group that left?

MR PANDAY: Of the group that left.

MR SBISI: They all knew him.

MR PANDAY: And how did information come, according to your paragraph, that he was an active IFP member?

MR SBISI: Please repeat that question.

MR PANDAY: How did you get information about the eldest son of the Mbongwa family being an active member.

CHAIRPERSON: Of the IFP. You said that he was regarded as a legitimate target because he was an active member of the IFP, and I think you also said responsible for the deaths of many people. Now what Mr Panday wants to know is where did you get that information, how did you know that that was in fact what the position was.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SBISI: I did have such information because I would see him on the marches. Even on the day when we were chased, he was the person chasing me. Secondly, he was involved in the death of Sipho Ngwenya, Sibusiso Ngwenya. That person was my brother-in-law and when they went to his home they were looking for me and could not get hold of me on that day and abducted him and attacked him. Fortunately he survived that attack and he could identify the people who had attacked him, when he was in hospital.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, how old was the eldest son of the Mbongwa family?

CHAIRPERSON: Did he have a name besides Mbongwa? Perhaps you can ask.

MR PANDAY: We're going to find that out as well, Mr Chairman. 

&#9;If you could answer Mr Chairman's question first. What was the name of this eldest son of the Mbongwa family?

MR SBISI: I just knew him by that name, Mbongwa.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, you were the Commander of the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think we had one more question to be answered. 

&#9;How old was he? If you don't know his exact age, how old would you estimate him to be?

MR SBISI: I can estimate, I would say he was about 24/25.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, I'm going to refer you once again to the bundle of documents and on page 22 and where the place it refers to Count 3: attempted murder, these were the following people that you were accused of attempting to have murdered - (1) was Emily Nsendi Mbongwa, right? I think that is common cause that it is the mother of Pumzile Mbongwa, right, and that is the lady that gave evidence against you in the trial. (2), the second person is Sifiso Mbongwa, that is another child of the Mbongwa family. (3), Bongiwe Mbongwa, Minilise Mbongwa and Kubelani Mbongwa. These are all children of the Mbongwa family. Now my instructions are from the father who is present at this hearing, that during the period of this attack on the Mbongwa family the ages of the children were from 19, that being Pumzile, that was the eldest child, the daughter, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: 19 years of age?

MR PANDAY: 19 years, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR PANDAY: ... Sifiso Mbongwa that was 15 years of age at the time of the attack, Minilise Mbongwa and Kubelani Mbongwa, these were all children that were younger than Sifiso Mbongwa. Now how is it that you identify a son in the Mbongwa family as being 24, when the eldest child was only 19 and that was a female?

CHAIRPERSON: And then the second eldest was 15 and that was ...

MR PANDAY: Sifiso.

CHAIRPERSON: Sifiso.

MR PANDAY: ... Mbongwa. That was at the time of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: So what you're saying is that the oldest age, according to your instructions is that ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: Is 19.

CHAIRPERSON: ... and the son ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: No, it's 19, Pumzile, that was the daughter.

CHAIRPERSON: No, but that's not a son, the target was the son.

MR PANDAY: The target was a son, 15.

CHAIRPERSON: The oldest son was 15.

MR PANDAY: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that, Mr Sbisi? 

&#9;This is at the time in question, is that right?

MR PANDAY: This is at the time of the incident, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR SBISI: Actually I cannot specify and be certain of his age but because of his height that is how I came to that estimate age of 24/25.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, how old are you?

MR SBISI: I'm 32.

MR PANDAY: And at the time of the attack on the Mbongwa family?

CHAIRPERSON: I think we can take five years away and ...(intervention)

MR SBISI: I have forgotten.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you have been about 27? If you say you're 32 now and this happened in 1994, depending on when your birthday is, you'd be roundabout 27 years of age, would that be correct? In 1994. His birth date is the 6th of July 1968, so we can work that out.

&#9;Is that your birth date, Mr Sbisi, 6th July 1968?

MR SBISI: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Now Mr Sbisi, you mentioned that he killed ANC members, this 15 year old boy, that was the eldest son of the Mbongwa family, did he do this by himself or was he accompanied by others?

MR SBISI: He was in the company of others.

MR PANDAY: Do you know the names of the others?

MR SBISI: I can specify the names of those who were mentioned in the community, one person was Mr Jabulani Radebe's son as well as Masojay(?) Radebe.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, how old were these two people that you mentioned now?

CHAIRPERSON: At that time.

MR PANDAY: At the time of the attack.

MR SBISI: I do not really know, but they were about the same height as myself but I cannot specify their ages.

MR PANDAY: Well how old do you think they were?

MR SBISI: I cannot estimate that because I have just done the same with the Mbongwa boy and make a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON: Well Mr Sbisi, would you say they were young men or were they old, 70 years old, 50 years old, or were they in their primes, strong, fit, young?

MR SBISI: They were young men.

MR PANDAY: You see Mr Sbisi, that's the problem we're having, you were the Commander of the SDU that existed in the area and if you read page 19 again, on paragraph 19, three lines from the bottom of that paragraph you say that -

&#9;&#9;"Nobody above myself ever gave instructions to commit such acts, it was purely decided by members mentioned above who were physically involved and worried."

&#9;Now you tell us in one breath that you were the person responsible for all these attacks and you could only give the decision, but yet you as a member or the person in charge, can't identify all these people properly, how is it that you place the eldest son of the Mbongwa family, whose name you do not know, as being an IFP, active IFP member?

MR DEHAL: Sorry, only whose first name he does not know, he knew him as Mbongwa.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, he knew him as Mbongwa.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, if you'll bear with me, that is the point.

CHAIRPERSON: You can carry on, perhaps just rephrase it.

MR PANDAY: You being the head of this organisation, in charge of the organisation, you did not know the full details of people that you were going to attack, but yet you want to protect your members, now how is it just for this incident on the Mbongwa family, you assume it to be the eldest son and not know his full details, but yet for the Radebe family you can identify all of the parties by their first, middle and last names? Why is there a discrepancy here with the Mbongwa family and the Radebe family?

MR SBISI: Prior to the violence I did not know the Mbongwa son well, but with regards to the others, I knew them in the community prior to the violence and also for the fact that they were also in may age group.

MR PANDAY: You say they were also in your age group, so was the Mbongwa son not in your age group?

MR SBISI: I would not say he was because I was usually in the company of my peers, but I would not be in a position to describe him fully. I first knew him when I saw him in instances when we were attacked and secondly, when the community itself starting complaining of him.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, when was the first attack made by the Mbongwa son, when did he first start attacking people, the Mbongwa son, what year?

MR SBISI: It was in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Panday, just before you proceed I just want to get clarity on your instructions. You've referred to the Mbongwa family as they appear on page 3 of the indictment, Charge 3 of the indictment, were there any other sons who weren't attempted murder victims in the sense that they might not have been at home that day and they were some place else?

MR PANDAY: No, Mr Chairman, this is the only victims that we're referring to, these are the family members, there are no other family members. 

Those are my instructions. 

CHAIRPERSON: So that's the entire family?

MR PANDAY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I just wanted to clear that up.

MR PANDAY: You mentioned in 1992, do you recall the month of 1992?

MR SBISI: I do not recall the month.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, is it correct that you apply for amnesty in respect of three incidents, namely the Radebe necklacing, the Pumzile, the murder of Pumzile and you mentioned one other incident with regards to Kamanati Sithole? Now were these the only incidents that took place in this area?

MR SBISI: No.

MR PANDAY: Were there many more incidents?

CHAIRPERSON: I think - you're talking about incidents committed by the ANC/SDU?

MR PANDAY: If I may just rephrase the question to him.

&#9;Mr Sbisi, in the area you lived were there lots of incidents of violence?

MR SBISI: Yes, there were many incidents of violence because there are many instances that I can specify where our members were killed as well as instances IFP members were also killed. In some instances the members from the two political organisations would sometimes meet and engage in fights that were ...(indistinct) sanctioned by the organisation.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, were you involved in more than the three incidents mentioned here?

MR SBISI: I only took part in the incidents that I enumerated in my application.

MR PANDAY: Now you see Mr Sbisi, that's another issue to consider, you were the head of the Self Defence Unit that was formed to protect your members, now how is it being the head you only were involved in three incidents and not the many incidents that took place? Because you had to make the decisions, you had to give the orders, now what head were you really? Was someone else higher than you or were you the main person to speak to?

CHAIRPERSON: Or was your SDU Unit only involved in three incidents?

MR SBISI: As I mentioned before there were incidents that took place without being sanctioned by us.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Panday, if I might just interject while on this.

&#9;Those six people that you sent off to the Mbongwa house to attack it that night, you've mentioned three of them as being youths and you've mentioned the names of three, were those people ever trained?

MR SBISI: The Bhekuzulu area was a stronghold of the IFP, most people go to learn about the ANC after we had distributed pamphlets, election pamphlets, that was when most people got to know about the ANC and what they stood for.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but my question was, those people that went on the operation to the Mbongwa house, that went off with the guns and the petrol bombs, were they trained people, had they received any military or paramilitary training, or were they just loose cannons?

MR SBISI: They were not trained.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, just on the point, you as the Commander who had to protect the people sent untrained people to attack an alleged IFP activist, now didn't you doubt that this operation is going to fail?

MR SBISI: I sent those people for the reason that I realised their commitment and their courage in the struggle that we were in.

MR PANDAY: Now you accept the possibility that they would have attacked the wrong family, seeing that they were untrained.

MR SBISI: No, I would not accept that because the people we used were from the area, they were residents in that same area, so they knew the area well.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, I may stand to be corrected, you mentioned that you first took notice of the Mbongwa son during a march, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: He said he first noticed him during the attacks, yes.

&#9;And I think he was one of the persons who chased you at that march, yes. So it must be I think, just by deduction.

MR PANDAY: Now the Mbongwa child, the son, do you recall the year that he first chased you?

MR SBISI: I do recall the year, not the month.

MR PANDAY: What year was that?

MR SBISI: It was in 1992.

MR PANDAY: And he would have been approximately 13 to 14 years back then, if this is the eldest son of the Mbongwa family, is that correct, who was 15 at the time of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think it's a question of arithmetic, we don't have to get everything ...(indistinct) on the evidence.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, it is the belief of the family - firstly, it is my instructions that the son was not a political activist, two, he was only 15 years of age at the time, who was very much involved in school, and it is my further instructions that he's currently in school and he's approximately 19 years of age to date, and they cannot accept your version that the killing or the attempted killing of the son which went wrong, was as a result of a political motive. More importantly, you are adamant to the fact that you were not present at this attack, now the only question that comes to mind thereafter is how you were linked to the murder of this child, the daughter, Pumzile Mbongwa. Now it doesn't take someone with an exorbitant amount of intelligence to establish that the only possible way that you could have been linked to this attack is by virtue of the fact that someone had to identify you as being at the scene, and this is very evidence in the judgment that was delivered, on page 27, five lines from the bottom of that page, where the judgment is quoted as saying the following ...(intervention)

MR DEHAL: Sorry, perhaps at this stage there have been three questions so far in that long question. If in fairness the witness can just answer the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It is getting a bit lengthy, perhaps ...(intervention)

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, I haven't directed the question.

CHAIRPERSON: He's actually put forward a prosthesis here, saying that - what Mr Panday is saying, Mr Sbisi, is that he is wondering how you at your trial were connected with the death of Pumzile Mbongwa and he is suggesting that the only reason he can think of why you were implicated at the trial and why you were convicted was because you were actually seen to be participating yourself in the attack, and now he's referring to page 27 in the judgment. 

&#9;You may now refer to that.

MR PANDAY: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Sbisi, you've heard what the Chairman has just said to you and more importantly, this identification is substantiated by the judgment on page 27, where the judge says or summarises the evidence of the mother -

&#9;&#9;"At the window she saw the accused with the firearm"

And now Mr Sbisi, the doubt that one now has in your evidence of even to the point of disclosure, is that you firstly deny that, thereafter you hand in a supplementary affidavit or an affidavit rather, marked Exhibit A, which contradicts your affidavit on page 19, or the paragraph that is on page 19. Now Mr Sbisi, it is my respectful submission that you are not disclosing to this Committee as to your whereabouts on the day of the 23rd of January, the day when Pumzile Mbongwa was killed. Do you have any comment on that?

MR SBISI: Yes, I can comment. On that day and on that year we were fugitives because our homes had been burnt, we had been chased out of our homes, we were at that point using somebody else's house as a base where we slept, where we hid and it was not easy for IFP members to access that place for them to kill our members.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, you said you hid at this house, so is it correct that people did not know where you were?

CHAIRPERSON: I mean unless he was hiding all alone, he was with other people.

MR PANDAY: Mr Chairman, the point one wants to confirm is ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: The authorities or the IFP people?

MR PANDAY: If Mr Chairman will allow me to extract an answer from the applicant, then that would be substantiated by a following question.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, you mentioned just a while ago that you were in hiding and you were fugitives, so did anyone know where to find you?

MR SBISI: It was not easy for people to know because we used different houses at different points. At that point we were on the run from the police who were on a campaign to arrest and harass ANC members, which they did not do to the IFP, and for that reason it was not easy for people to find out where we lived because we were on the run from the police and also from our attackers.

MR PANDAY: Now Mr Sbisi, when there was a contradiction in your affidavits as to you falling asleep and then being unable to sleep, you mentioned you went to guard, now why should you have that worry to guard if people cannot find you, it was not easy for them to find you?

MR SBISI: On that day we were using the Ngcobo household as a base, the attackers knew that most of the comrades used that house as a base because we had to stay together. It was not easy for them to move from that area, from their area to attack us there, we would normally be able to stop them along the way and they would flee back to their own area.

MR PANDAY: Mr Sbisi, that's just it, you contradict yourself once again, first it was not easy for them to find you, you were able to hide from the attackers and the police and now you say the attackers knew that the house was used as a base ...(intervention)

MR DEHAL: No, that's not what he said.

MR MALAN: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR PANDAY: I understand it ...

MR DEHAL: Sorry, he did not say that this is the house that the attackers knew he was in, he said the attackers knew where ANC personnel and people had taken refuge in ..(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That he was there. But Mr Panday, I don't know if you're getting anywhere because - are you now going to argue that - well we know your version, your version is that he was on the scene, but if people are on the run and are hiding and shifting from one place to another, it certainly not unreasonable to have a guard to check ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR PANDAY: I concede, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact, if I was on the run doing that I would think it would be negligent just to sit inside and not know what's going on outside.

MR PANDAY: I concede, Mr Chairman, thank you. In the light of that there's nothing further, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PANDAY

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any questions?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair. Before I address the questions I just want clarification, I don't know whether I should ask the applicant or through the legal representation, it's about the incident which is on Annexure A, of Sithole, paragraph 21.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS THABETHE: Of Sithole, Kamanati.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well I think ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: Paragraph 21.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 

MS THABETHE: My difficulty, Mr Chair, is that it's the first time we hear about this incident, it was not mentioned anywhere in the applicant's application. So I'm faced with a very difficult situation because the Act requires us to notify the victims and also I'm not sure about the cut-off date as well, whether that can be encompassed since it wasn't there in the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I understand those difficulties. Mr Dehal?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, those appear to be reasonable difficulties, I unfortunately have no answer for that ....(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think that was when I - remember when I was asking that this is very brief, in fact it's correct, there's no mention of Sithole.

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, you will recall the difficulty I had is that Ms Kooverjee yesterday consulted ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, we're no blaming anybody, Mr Dehal, we just want to - you see the situation is we can't consider applications for amnesty that weren't made within the time limit, I know that we do give leeway that is somebody applies for the murder of somebody and he hasn't applied for being in possession of a firearm and he used an illegal firearm to shoot the person, then sometimes they include it, but when they came in with a completely new incident of a serious nature such as a murder that hasn't been mentioned before, then there's legal difficulties, it's not a question of us not wanting to or that it's a question of us not being able to hear it. So that is the first difficulty, and then the second difficulty is, we know that - well we don't know when it was, the cut-off dates as you know is 10th of May 1994, I don't know when it's alleged that this murder took place. It would seem ...(intervention)

MS THABETHE: December.

CHAIRPERSON: ... that it took place before his arrest, yes, so that's not a problem. But our difficulty is, are we seized with it, can we be seized with it?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, I need to look at these documents more fully, unfortunately I did not study them as detailed ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we can adjourn until tomorrow. I see it's quite late now, but are there any other difficulties that need to be addressed now instead of being raised tomorrow morning, that you have, Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: No, it was just that, Mr Chair, otherwise I was going to be very short with my cross-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, well perhaps you can be very short. Should we finish it?

MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair.

&#9;On page 19 of the bundle, paragraph 2, you indicate Mr Majola, that - Mr Sbisi, that you were involved in the planning of attacking Mr Mbongwa, where did the planning take place?

MR SBISI: We were at the Ndumo house.

MS THABETHE: How many were you when you planned this?

MR SBISI: If I'm not mistaken we were eight or nine.

MS THABETHE: Were you all SDU members?

MR SBISI: Some of us were and some were not.

MS THABETHE: Now what exactly did you decide during your planning, how were you going to attack Mr Mbongwa?

MR SBISI: The plan was, we had received information that the Mbongwa boy was present at home because at that haunt(?) he did not reside at his home but had fled to somebody else's house. His home was on the boundaries between these two areas. The decision was that he would be removed from the house and be killed outside.

MS THABETHE: Right. So on the night in question when the other people left, that was the plan, to take him from his home I guess ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well that's what he said, the decision was to remove him from the house and to kill him outside.

MS THABETHE: And why wasn't this done? Why was a petrol bomb thrown inside?

MR SBISI: After I had learnt about the death of that girl when I was questioning them, they informed me that when they arrived there the lights were switched off and for that reason they threw in a petrol bomb and they started firing. Even then I was very sceptical of their act because I knew how many bullets were in the firearms that they had had in their possession and I discovered that only two bullets were used in one firearm that had been used by Zwee(?). That is why I maintain that the death of that girl was caused by Zwee whose firearm had two bullets missing on their return.

CHAIRPERSON: It would also be a weak reason as to why to throw the petrol bomb, just because the lights were out, I mean what would they have done there if the lights were on? Anyway, carry on.

MR MALAN: Sorry, but didn't you say in paragraph 16 on page 5 of your statement that only the next day after they had reported to you, did you learn that the young girl died? And that you only then checked the firearms and noted that there were two used cartridges. Here in your statement you don't say that you did it in on their return, you said you did it the following day after you got the news that Mbongwa wasn't killed, that it was his daughter(sic) killed. That's page 5 of the affidavit, paragraph 16.

CHAIRPERSON: It's of Exhibit A.

MR MALAN: Of Exhibit A, I'm sorry.

MR SBISI: Please repeat that question.

MR MALAN: You told us now in response to a question by Ms Thabethe, that when they came back you immediately checked the firearms and you found the two bullets were spent, to cartridges, and that you therefore knew it to be, I think you said Zwee, who shot. Who is Zwee, Ndumo or Mashandolo? Because you didn't mention him in this first statement, but probably Ndumo. Now I'm referring you to your statement which was signed and which was handed into us, signed today. In that statement, in paragraph 16 on page 5 you say that only after you had heard that the girl had died, did you check the firearms and you say it was the next day. Now when did you check it?

MR SBISI: I checked on the following day after receiving information that a girl had been killed.

MR MALAN: Ms Thabethe.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when did you hear about the death of Pumzile, or of a girl being killed, the next day or that night? The night of the attack or the next morning?

MR SBISI: I heard about it on the following morning.

CHAIRPERSON: So then why did you - okay, so what did the people tell you when they came back? You said you waited for them, you waited up, you did a patrol for half an hour, eight thirty to nine and then you waited for them to return, what did they tell you when they returned then?

MR SBISI: For the reason that it was difficult for all of them to return it was only Zwee who returned. He informed me that the boy had been killed, the rest had gone to hide the firearms that had been used because the police were now all around ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That's how I understand it, and then the next morning you learnt what really happened and that a girl in fact had been killed and not the boy. Yes, thank you. Ms Thabethe?

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Chair.

MR MALAN: Sorry, may I just follow up here. 

&#9;Why did they go and hide the weapons? You issued them with the weapons and you issued them with the petrol bombs, why did they go and hide it, why did they not return it to you?

MR SBISI: The reason they didn't bring the guns to me it was because every time after a shooting police would come and in our area there was no electricity, it was easy for us to identify a car from a distance, therefore if you see that car coming it wasn't wise to carry those guns because they were scared that they might be searched by the police. Or even if they're coming to our base they would not bring the firearms with them because they wouldn't want the police to find the firearms with us.

MR MALAN: And why did you issue them with the petrol bombs, what were they to do with the petrol bombs?

MR SBISI: We were using petrol bombs because sometimes when we were on our way to attack we will find that whoever we were there to attack, had been ready for us and they were armed, so it was easy for us to use the petrol bomb against such incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe.

MS THABETHE: Thank you.

&#9;I would be correct therefore to say that the petrol bombing of Mbongwa's house was done outside the decisions that were taken during your planning ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, I think that's - he said so, I mean he said the planning was to remove him and shoot him. That's for argument, you don't have to get everything on ...(indistinct)

MS THABETHE: Okay.

&#9;My last question is, how was attacking Mr Radebe going to further the objectives of your organisation?

MR SBISI: We were trying to destabilise the IFP base because one, Mr Radebe used to bring people from outside who were IFP supporters, who were not the residents of the area, he would harbour them, IFP attackers. People we never even met before were attacking us, therefore we saw it as a reason that if we attack him we will defeat the IFP.

MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Thabethe.

MR MALAN: May I just refer you quickly to page 18 again, Mr Sbisi, this is the affidavit or the statement that you made to the TRC Investigator you said you trusted and therefore you told us here you spoke the truth, it was a truthful statement, that's how you were interpreted. The 10th line from the bottom on page 18, you are saying that your intention was to give him opportunity to run away but that you were overpowered by the angry mob. Do you see that?

CHAIRPERSON: Are we still talking about the Radebe attack?

MR MALAN: Yes, the attempted necklacing of Radebe.

&#9;Do you see that?

MR SBISI: Yes.

MR MALAN: Is that true?

MR SBISI: Yes it is partly true. What I meant here is that these were the words I said to Mr Dladla because I wanted Mr Dladla to release Mr Radebe in my hands or to give him to me.

MR MALAN: No, you're not saying these were the words you used to Mr Dladla, you're telling the Investigator that you negotiated with the head of the family for him to be released into your hands, he was then led to the local school, and then you say it was your intention to give him an opportunity to run away and only at school yard was it agreed that he must be necklaced. That's what you're telling us there. 

&#9;Now that certainly is not the same story as what you tell us in the affidavit that you signed today, where clearly it was your intention where you went you forced him to drink petrol, you poured the petrol into the tyre when he was necklaced, you set it alight. Which story is true? Do you have any comment?

MR SBISI: What I can say is that it wasn't going to be easy for me to rescue Mr Radebe, because also my aim was that he should be killed because they had killed quite a number of ANC members and the people who were responsible for that were brought in the area by Mr Radebe, therefore we saw it that he should be killed. He used to bring people from outside our area and kill us. You will meet people you don't know in the street and those people were just shooting at us. If I can put an example, when a man was killed it was because of Mr Jabulani Radebe.

MR MALAN: No, I don't think you have to go into that, that does not relate to my question. A last question, in the judgment there's a reference to some bringing of yourself before this Chief, before Radebe, by the Ntjalintjali(?) family. You denied it, the story that was Wusani Ntjalintjali said that you were brought before the Chief. I'm referring you now to page 27 of the bundle. Were you ever before the Chief?

MR SBISI: That is not true, it never happened.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dehal, do you have any re-examination?

MR DEHAL: Mr Chairperson, could I perhaps ask that this matter be adjourned until tomorrow, so that I can take instructions on that one aspect and then establish whether there are aspects. As presently advised there appears to be none.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see that it's now nearly quarter to five, the interpreters are working overtime and we've been talking all day, I think it would be appropriate if we did and then I'd ask please to consider your submissions in this matter, that we'll just take submissions and then proceed with the next matter after that tomorrow. 

&#9;So we'll adjourn till tomorrow, what 9 o'clock?

MR MALAN: Chair, with your permission, just before we adjourn, may we ask Mr Dehal to furnish us with the other affidavits in advance, so we can all read them, exchange them, so that we don't have to verbatim read them again into the record, it will save a lot of time, please.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you be able to make it by 9 o'clock or ...?

MR DEHAL: Mr Dehal, I'll be able to make it nine, on the basis that I begin with the next person that I'm ready for. The only one problem I have is that today we took instructions and dictated statements for the other persons, if I would wait for them to be typed, that might delay me a little. Unless I could arrange for them when typed ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: To be faxed?

MR DEHAL: To be faxed, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I think there is a fax facility here. Perhaps before you go Mr Dehal, if you could link up with Ms Thabethe, get the fax number so that you can then fax it, and I think there's photocopying facilities here as well, so they can then make a photocopy of the fax and I'm sure that will be sufficient for our purposes, we won't insist upon having the actual original.

MR DEHAL: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

&#9;Then we'll adjourn this matter for continuation tomorrow at 9 o'clock or so soon thereafter as possible, when we'll finish and then resume with the rest of the roll after that, thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

