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PALM RIDGE [TRC]
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 &#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;4TH DECEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;SIPHO STEVEN NGUBANE (RECALL)

APPLICATION NO: AM7295/97

HELD AT:&#9;PALM RIDGE

DAY:&#9;&#9;9

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Good morning ladies and gentlemen, we would like to start. For the record, it's Friday, the 5th of December 1998, it is continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee in respect of the Tokoza SDU members' amnesty applications. The panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record and the appearances are the same.

&#9;We would like to recall this morning the first matter, that of Mr Sipho - the application of Mr Sipho Steven Ngubane, AM7295/97, to clarify an issue that has come to our attention since he has completed his testimony, and Mr Sibeko is representing him this morning, as previously was the position as well.

&#9;Now, Mr Ngubane, do you hear me?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm going to administer a further oath to you, so I would like you to please stand. We've already got your full names, so please stand.

SIPHO STEVEN NGUBANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please sit down. I'm going to ask Advocate Gcabashe to raise the particular issue with you.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, chair. Mr Ngubane, you gave evidence about a number of incidents. One of the incidents you referred to was that during '93 or '94, you weren't sure of the date, you chose certain members of your SDU group and you launched an attack at Dube Street, Tokoza, that's the note that I had made. You said that you were attacking IFP members because they were attacking you. You went on to say that you were with Sipiwe Ndlovu and you said you did not remember the others. Essentially you were saying that there were outbreaks of violence and you then went to deal with one of these outbreaks. Now, Sipiwe Ndlovu gave evidence last week and he said to us that he was with you, because you had taken over as Moosa's deputy, you had confirmed that you were Moosa's deputy anyway, but what Sipiwe Ndlovu said to us about an incident where you were involved was that in about about '93 he thought it was, there was a meeting in Johannesburg of the IFP, he was with you and three other comrades, you heard that the IFP were going to this rally and you had decided to wait for them to return. He went on to say that he and you took two AK47's, you went to Khumalo Street and waited for these IFP members to come back. When the first minibus came back, you ignored it, when the second one came, it was full of passengers, you shot at the second minibus and then you retreated. Now he said that that incident occurred at Khumalo Street. What I would like you to do is to explain whether the incident that you talked about, Dube Street, where you were fighting the IFP, is in fact the same incident that Sipiwe Ndlovu related, that's the one issue, is it the same incident, because we don't know if Dube and Khumalo Street are in fact, they in fact meet at a particular point, that's issue one, issue two, if in fact these are two separate incidents, could you then take us through the incident relating to the taxis coming back from town, and tell us whether you would like to be granted amnesty on that particular incident as well, along with all the others that you have mentioned? It's really just to clarify for us what the position is and to supplement your application for amnesty, so that we've got all the incidents. I hope you have understood that. Thank you.

MR NGUBANE: Yes, I understand. Khumalo Street and Dube are two different streets, I cannot even say they interject at some point. I can say I was involved in that Dube Street incident with Sipiwe and the other members, it was myself who actually issued the instructions as they were attacking there, as they were attacking the IFP members there at Dube Street. The Khumalo Street incident, I know nothing about it, I know nothing about it, I don't know that we ever waited for the IFP members who were coming from the meeting or from the rally, I don't know anything about that incident. I think he is making a mistake.

ADV GCABASHE: You know nothing at all of that incident?

MR NGUBANE: I know nothing about the incident whereby we waited for the Inkatha members coming from a meeting.

ADV GCABASHE: You did not give any order either in relation to that incident?

MR NGUBANE: No.

ADV GCABASHE: You see later on he does talk about Osipho Tshabalala, so it is quite possible, he mentions both Sipho's, Sipho Tshabalala and Sipho Ngubane, so it is quite possible that Sipho Tshabalala is in fact the person he was with and not with Sipho Ngubane.

MR NGUBANE: That is a possibility, that maybe he was with Sipho Tshabalala.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, chair, I have no further questions on this issue.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Have you got any questions?

ADV SANDI: Mr Ngubane, did you ever hear that such an incident had occurred?

MR NGUBANE: That is new to me, I did not hear anything about that story of attacking the IFP members coming from the meeting.

ADV SANDI: You mean to say that you're hearing it for the first time today?

MR NGUBANE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Steenkamp, have you got any questions?

ADVOCATE STEENKAMP: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, questions?

MR SIBEKO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Mr Ngubane, is it not possible that Sipiwe is accusing this attack with any other attack which you might have been involved in with him, that has to do with a kombi or a car?

MR NGUBANE: I think he's making a mistake, I think he is making a mistake somewhere, because there was an attack that took place at Khumalo, Khumalo Street, where I was involved. It was myself there who issued orders. If I'm not mistaken, I think it was early 1994. What made me to say that he is making a mistake, those IFP members who were injured coming from the meeting, the attack itself took place in the morning, it was very early in the morning and no-one would be coming from a meeting at that time, it was very early in the morning. We once attacked a kombi at Khumalo Street, just near the Tokoza Police Station. It was an ...(indistinct) kombi, white in colour. I was with the other members, not the whole section as we used to, it was just a few of us. Sipiwe Ndlovu was also present and Mr Vusu Mabizela was there, and Samuel Khoza, though I can't remember the others, because there were other comrades from other sections. What happened there, it was an ambush, the township was divided, there were kombis that were well-known that they were moving on the side of the hostel and everyone who used to reside there at the time was regarded as an enemy, that is why we attacked an ...(indistinct) kombi early in the morning at about seven o'clock, round about seven o'clock, near the Tokoza Police Station. We shot at this kombi to such an extent that it couldn't move anymore. We started shooting at this kombi while it was next to the Tokoza Police Station until it reached the point where the office was, I think that was the municipality office. From there, we left that place and we went back to our section.

ADV GCABASHE: You started shooting at it from the Tokoza Police Station until near the office you said. Which office?

MR NGUBANE: I think it's the town council office. We started shooting at this kombi while it was still coming, we were standing opposite the gate, the gate of the office, and it came to the office, next to the office, and it stopped.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko, I have a difficulty, maybe you can help me, I'm trying to remember whether the witness did in fact mention this when he testified yesterday or the day before?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, this was not mentioned, it's one of those incidences that he only discovered this morning that he left out, those are the incidences that he left out, and it's because of this problem that we needed to be clarified upon that he forgot to remember, and further there was also an incident mentioned by Mr Mhlauli yesterday, which also involved Mr Ngubane, he only got to remember when Mr Mhlauli was testifying, so I beg leave that such incidences be allowed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no it is so that the discussion around testimony of Mr Ndlovu concerning kombis and taxis and meetings and so on might very well have helped the recollections of your client, and you have already dealt with the one, so please deal with the other one as well that he was reminded of.

ADV GCABASHE: Before you go to the other one, when you started telling us about these attacks, the first one you mentioned was at Khumalo Street, which was in early 1994, but I didn't get the rest of those facts down properly, you were going rather fast, because I have here that it was too early in the morning for IFP members to be coming from a meeting. Can you just go over that testimony in brief again? I just didn't get it down, that's all. I don't understand what that incident was about.

MR NGUBANE: What I was saying was that we launched the attack in the morning. I'm saying that because it was very early, I was collecting Sipiwe when he said the kombi that was attacked was the kombi that was coming from the meeting. What I was actually rectifying there was this, it was very early for one to determine that the people were coming from the meeting or it, it was quite early in the morning. That is what I wanted to say concerning the kombi incident. The other thing that came to my mind as Mr Mhlauli was testifying here yesterday about the kombi, the kombi that belonged to Khumalo, yes I was there, I was present. I was also involved there when the kombi was shot at at Konanga ...(indistinct) and Khumalo Street. That is where we made a plan of organising a lady to try and stop a kombi to pretend as if she was getting to town, and then when the kombi was about to stop, we would attack the kombi. I was also present there. The other one, in 1994, I think it was early 1994, on the 1st of January 1994, an attack was launched next to Slovo Section. As the people who were patrolling during the night, on the New Years Eve, as we were patrolling during the night on the New Years Eve, very early in the morning, at about 4:00, between 4:00 and 5:00, I went home to sleep, I went to sleep, a person who was in my company was Lerato. Both of us were armed with AK47 rifles. On the 1st of January 1994, in the morning, we heard gunshots coming from the direction of Slovo Section. It was just after we had woken up and we saw people running away. I took the firearm and Lerato had his own firearm. I told him to go with me to Slovo Section. As Moosa's deputy, most of the times when he was not present, I was allowed to issue instructions. I instructed Lerato to go with me to Slovo Section. We went to Slovo Section, we found that the IFP members had already attacked the area and there is a place where they used - there is a level that they used to reach when they were attacking, but now it looked like they actually went beyond that level. 

MR SIBEKO: Sorry, I don't follow the very last part of this, what level are you talking about?

MR NGUBANE: I'm talking about Buthelezi Street, most of the time whenever they were attacking, they wouldn't go beyond Buthelezi Street, then it means that used to be their boundary. They crossed that boundary on that particular day. When we arrived there with Lerato, we found the comrades from Slovo who were the members of SDU's. Their problem was they were running short of ammunition, bullets, because during the night, at about 12:00, they were celebrating, shooting in the air, 12:00 midnight, that is the reason why they were attacked that much, because they did not have bullets. We tried to fight, though it was just a minority from their group that was actually helping us. We shot, we exchanged fire and we managed to drive them back and they went back to their place. That is one of the incidents that I happened to remember, that is why I had to talk about them. It is about this incident that I'm asking for amnesty. Perhaps anything that can come up that I've forgotten, I agree that I cannot remember everything. Even if I'm not here in this house, if someone else can bring up whatever that I have forgotten, I would like to further request, I apply for amnesty for those incidents, because I'm willing to apply for amnesty for each and every incident that I was involved in.

ADV GCABASHE: Tell me, this incident at Slovo, this last one you've told us about, is that the same incident Mhlauli referred to when he was talking about Slovo being a soft spot and the guys that come beyond, he gave evidence about that yesterday if I remember well, was he with you?

MR NGUBANE: No, that is not the same incident. The one that I'm talking about, I was with Lerato, not Mhlauli.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got nothing further for... (intervention).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Ngubane, you are again excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;

 

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;4TH DECEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;COLIN LERATO NTEO

APPLICATION NO: AM 7278/97 &#9;

HELD AT:&#9;PALM RIDGE

DAY:&#9;&#9;9

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, who is the next applicant.

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Lerato Colin Nteo. His application is on page 172, Lusaka A.&#9;&#9;

CHAIRPERSON: What is the surname, Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: It's N T E O.

CHAIRPERSON: M T E O, oh N.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you hear me?

MR NTEO: Yes.

COLIN LERATO NTEO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Mr Nteo, you have also applied for amnesty, is that correct?

MR NTEO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka A, in Tokoza?

MR NTEO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Was Moosa Msimango your commander?

MR NTEO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join this Self Defence Unit?

MR NTEO: In 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Were there acts of violence in which you were involved before the dates 1993?

MR NTEO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When you were involved in the said activities of violence, were you a member of any political organisation or political party, or a student movement?

MR NTEO: Truly speaking, I did not belong to any political organisation.

MR SIBEKO: You were engaged in the said activities as an ordinary member of the community, is that correct?

MR NTEO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind telling us about those incidences before 1993?

ADV GCABASHE: If I could just interrupt, before you do that, I see that he says he's also a member of the ANC. Would that be pre-1993 or post-1993, just to clarify that last aspect?

MR NTEO: As you are still asking me, I was still talking about the incidents before 1993.

MR SIBEKO: So in effect what you're saying is, you only became a member of the ANC from 1993 or after 1993?

MR NTEO: From 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Proceed to tell us about the incidences before 1993.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko, maybe this needs further clarification. Mr Nteo, before 1993, did you not sympathise with the aims and objectives of the ANC, although you're not really a member of that organisation?

MR NTEO: Yes, I used to support their policies, but at the time I was not yet a member. Once in 1990, after there was violence in Katlehong between the two taxi associations, a lot of people and community members used to be - they were injured, a lot of members from the community and school children were injured.

ADV SANDI: Now you say there was this violence between the JND and Inkatha, what is this JND?

MR NTEO: JND was one other taxi association from Katlehong and Inkatha. As these fights were going on, the community from Tokoza would meet with people from Katlehong because it's not only the Katlehong community that was affected, even Tokoza was also affected. There were discussions, peace discussions, that never succeeded. JND was a taxi association that was based at Kusene Hostel, and the people who were residing there, hostel dwellers from Kusene, they would support the JND taxi association in killing the people. That led to meetings with Tokoza community, and even the people from Kusene Hostel would not understand and they kept on killing the people. It happened that one day at Slovo Section in Tokoza, at a church that was opposite Mapanzela Primary School there was a meeting held by Tokoza people.

ADV GCABASHE: What's the name of the primary school?

MR NTEO: Mapanzela, Mapanzela Primary School.

ADV GCABASHE: Before you go further, the meeting that was held by the Tokoza community, was this a meeting with the Kusene Hostel residents? When you talk about the community had a meeting to discuss this taxi issue, was it everybody, all the hostel inmates and the community, or just the community on its own?

MR NTEO: It was the Tokoza residents discussing these issues, trying to find a solution. They had to find a solution to solve the problem.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but my question is, did this meeting include the hostel residents, or did it exclude the hostel residents?

MR NTEO: I apologise for that. The hostel dwellers were not present. On that particular day, the people came, the people from the townships, they barricaded all the streets.

MR SIBEKO: Now did this barricade occur at the time of the meeting at Mapanzela, or did this take place after the meeting at Mapanzela, what was the resolution at Mapanzela, what happened at Mapanzela?

MR NTEO: The decision that was taken there at the meeting was to barricade the streets, because these people were using their cars, moving in the streets, trying to kill the people, so they had to barricade the streets. While we were still barricading the streets, we were at Everest, just opposite the Gadebe Section. Most unfortunately, the members from the hostels and the members from the community collided. When the hostel dwellers saw a large number of people from the township coming, they ran away. As we were still chasing them, they were on their way to Mazibugu Hostel, if I'm not mistaken, the hostel in Katlehong. As they were running away, the other one tried, one of them tried to take cover behind a pole in the playing ground of Gadibe Section. Unfortunately for that person, he was caught and he was pelted with stones and I was also among the people who were doing that to him. From that group of people, one of the people came, one person came with a petrol bomb... (intervention).

ADV GCABASHE: Not a petrol bomb, but a litre of petrol.

MR NTEO: I beg your pardon, he had a petrol in a container. While this person was still lying there, petrol was poured over his body and he was set alight by the people who were with me there. That person died there on the scene. That's all I wanted to say about this incident.

ADV GCABASHE: Did you know him at all, can you give us a name?

MR NTEO: This person was not known to me, but because he was wearing a red headband, that used to indicate that he was supporting the Inkatha Freedom Party, that is the reason that that particular person was killed.

ADV GCABASHE: You said because he was wearing a red headband and he was found in the section where the Inkatha people lived, that's the reason?

MR NTEO: When the Inkatha people are killing, are about to kill people, they move in groups and they have some headbands and red plastics, and it shows that they belong to one party. We just decided that - we just - we thought that this person was coming from that particular group, because he was coming from a group where the Inkatha Freedom Party people were running to, but unfortunately for him, he was left behind and that's why he was caught.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, this, did it happen on that same day when the Tokoza residents had that meeting where it was decided to barricade the streets?

MR NTEO: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you give us an idea as to when this was?

MR NTEO: The year was 1993, but the date... (intervention).

ADV GCABASHE: 1990, I think, not 1993.

MR NTEO: It was in 1990.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, just carry on.

MR NTEO: The meeting was called by - or I could say the chairperson was Oba Mbele. The other one who was present was Bole Mahlangu, who resided at Umbegu Street in Slovo Section.

CHAIRPERSON: All right, so that is that incident where this person was burnt. What else were you involved in?

MR NTEO: The other incidents would be barricading the area, especially after Mr Khumalo was harassing the members of the community. I think it was during the year 1992, myself and my schoolmate, Solly, from Extension 2, that is when Solly told me that at Buthle Buzele High School, there is a certain man by the name of Oscar, who was a member of the Khumalo Gang. We were looking for him, hunting him down, but we were not able to get him at the school. We decided to go to Sipho Steven Ngubane at a certain school called Togotabu. That's where we got Sipho, he had an AK47 in his possession.

ADV GCABASHE: He had an AK47, who is he, Sipho Ngubane or Oscar?

MR NTEO: It was Sipho Ngubane. 

CHAIRPERSON: Is there a problem with the interpretation?

INTERPRETER: We've just requested him to repeat himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh.

MR NTEO: We went to Togotabu and told Sipho that there were rumours about a certain Oscar who was collaborating with Mr Khumalo in their activities of harassing the community. From there, we went to our own school, that is Buthle Buzele, where Solly and myself were attending school. As we were still looking for Solly, Sipho went his own way, we were actually looking for Oscar, and Sipho went around the school and we took a different direction.

ADV GCABASHE: Again, can I just get clarity, as you were looking for Solly or as you were looking for Oscar, because the interpreter said Solly, but she could be right, I am not sure, who were you looking for, for both of them, for different ...(indistinct)?

MR NTEO: I did excuse myself because I had made a mistake, we were actually looking for Oscar. After quite some time, we got together with Sipho and he reported that he came across Oscar who had a gun in his possession, but the way he screamed, he actually felt for him and decided not to shoot him. We thereafter decided to go back to our respective places and we were satisfied that he had not been shot, because he was quite a young fellow. That is what we did at Buthle Buzele School.

MR SIBEKO: Now, is this the same day when Mr Ngubane went to look for Oscar because Oscar was harassing the late Lucky Mampuro's siblings or younger sister?

MR NTEO: That is correct, it's the same day.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident?

MR NTEO: No, there is nothing else with regard to the years that is before 1993, and during the year 1993, because of the already volatile situation after the Inkatha members killed members of the community, especially the Phola Park area, they were killing innocent citizens, at times we would find ourselves in a difficult situation whereby we could not move around in the area. That led me to join the SDU, which was in the early stages of its formation. When I joined, my commander was Moosa. When I was a member of the SDU, it so happened that one day, whilst I was in that section, I was called upon, together with other members of the SDU, we were summoned to the office.

MR SIBEKO: Who was calling you, Mr Nteo?

MR NTEO: We had certain young boys who were messengers and they would be sent to call members of the SDU whenever the members were needed. I went to the office, I got Moosa as well as others at the office who were members of the SDU. I was told, together with other members, that there had been an urgent message from Mandela Section, that they required our help. That message was received through a two-way radio. Each one of us took a gun, we prepared ourselves and we duly went to the place where we were needed. We all had AK47's. We were plus-minus 21, I think we were actually 21 in our own section. When we got there, there was relative quiet or calm, and Bonga, the commander, showed us some ways in which we could infiltrate the enemy, he also showed us covers or some cover areas where we could hide ourselves. After some time we divided ourselves into the covering group and the group that was going to carry out the mission. I was in the covering group, because what I wanted to do on that particular day was to shoot at the Internal Stability Unit. My fellow comrades went in and I could hear some gunfire. I didn't really mind much, because I had my own duty which I had given to myself, or which I had been designated to do. After the other comrades came out, we saw a van, a police van, a scout van. The scout van was driven by white people, and at the time, as I was in the covering group, I needed to attack this van in order to afford my fellow comrades some protection, and thereafter we went to the Twala Section. I'm not sure as to whether people got injured or they died, but I would not deny the fact that some died or others got injured, because that was our main intention, to injure or kill. I could say that's about all.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct if I say that you associated yourself with the actions of your fellow SDU members who launched that attack at Slovo Section whilst you were in the covering group?

MR NTEO: The section that was being attacked at that time was Mandela Section. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind. I went along with their actions and I acted when necessary. I did it because I wanted to protect my community.

MR SIBEKO: Now your evidence is that you fired shots towards this police vehicle. Are you in a position to tell us whether you managed to hit any of the occupants of the scout vehicle that you referred to?

MR NTEO: As the police had come out, my sole intention was to kill them, I really wanted to kill them. I don't know whether I was able to shoot and injure or kill anyone of them, and my intention was no to injure, but to kill.

MR SIBEKO: In the event, where any of these police officials were injured or died as a result of your shooting, you acknowledge that you were the cause thereof and you ask for amnesty in that regard?

MR NTEO: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Any other incident?

MR NTEO: The other incident was on New Years Day.

MR SIBEKO: Is it the 1st of January 1994 that Mr Ngubane has just testified about?

MR NTEO: That is so. We had been patrolling the area earlier on. We did not have time to celebrate the festive season because of the situation in that area. We went to Sipho Ngubane's place. We wanted to relax after having spent the whole night patrolling the area. Whilst we were there, we heard some gunfire. The extent of the gunfire, or because we were used to the sounds of gunfire, we could differentiate between Inkatha attacking and the SDU attacking and we realised that we were being attacked, or the area was being attacked. Mr Ngubane was the deputy commander of the section. He said we should go to Slovo Section to investigate as to what was happening. We both had AK47's in our possession. I had this deep hatred, I was consumed by this hatred for Inkatha, and I did not doubt going to Slovo Section. We were going towards that direction and all the people were coming from that direction, running away from members of Inkatha who were attacking and had gone beyond the boundary. They were now at Buthelezi Street where there were people residing there. When we got there, we saw members of Inkatha advancing towards our direction in large numbers, just like ants congregating towards a sweet. At that stage I did not wait for a specific command to shoot, I breeched my AK47 and pointed the barrel towards the members of Inkatha. I started shooting, only to find that Mr Ngubane had done the same thing, because these people were approaching and advancing. We opened gunfire, I could see them falling and others were helping each other up, dragging each other, and they realised that they were not the only ones who were attacking, there was a return of fire or a counter-attack. That is where the members of Inkatha collected and dragged each other and retreated. We also retreated. I was very happy that particular day because I was able to kill or shoot or injure, and say with certainty that I had got some of them. That is as far as this incident goes, that is the 1994 incident on New Years Day.

MR SIBEKO: You also apply for amnesty for the injuries or death that you might have caused in this particular incident, is that correct?

MR NTEO: That is so.

MR SIBEKO: Further for the possession of an unlawful firearm, is that correct?

MR NTEO: That is correct. The other incident, because the situation was volatile in the township and there was no time of talking to the commander whenever you wanted arms and ammunition, we kept some of the rifles in our own rooms and it so happened that I went to the Masuto Section, that is going to my aunt's place. I put up there for that night. After having seen a certain man who goes by the name Tabiso and I had told him that I'm going to my aunt's place and we parted on that note. As I was sleeping at my aunt's place, I think it was between 12:00 midnight and 03:00 towards dawn, it was midnight, I heard a knock and I could hear some gunfire, I was in deep slumber when I awoke to the sound of gunfire as well as the knock at the door. I took my AK47, breeched it and asked as to was at the door. A reply came that it was Tabiso. When I opened the door, he told me that at Tindwa Village, the members of the community were being attacked by Inkatha, and he also had an AK47. The AK had lost its cover, the top cover, we call it the top, and he was not able to continue using it in that condition, and that's why he had decided to come and wake me up. We duly went to the Tindwa Section. When we got to Tindwa Section, there was exchange of gunfire from Zwaragano School and the Leratadema School, there was this exchange of gunfire between the Inkatha people and the other members who were in the respective schools. It was Zwaragano Primary School, as well as Leratadema. I did see some members of Inkatha, because there were these bright street lights we call Apollo lights. I did not wait to be directed to attack, because I enjoyed, or particularly enjoyed attacking Inkatha or attacking the members of Inkatha, then I started shooting. We were helping the Leratadema and Zwaragano people or members of the SDU. We were able to chase these Inkatha people out and thereafter the Stability Unit arrived. Because my ammunition was now finished for the AK47, I had to retreat and I went back home. On the following morning, I went to witness that in the first houses of Tindwa Village, there were certain people who had died the previous night, they had been killed by the members of Inkatha because their house was right at the beginning of the section, or the border of the section. These are the only corpses or bodies, I think there were about three. I did not see any members of Inkatha or any bodies belonging to members of Inkatha and I didn't hear at a later stage that there were members of Inkatha who had been injured or killed.

MR SIBEKO: But you don't rule out the possibility that death or injuries might have been caused as a result, or on the part of the IFP, might have been caused by your shooting, together with your comrades?

MR NTEO: I would not deny that, because I know my intention, or I knew my intention there. That is so.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Sibeko, we missed the last question, you know, after the ruling out, you said something and he agreed, but we didn't get the question.

MR SIBEKO: He acknowledged that there could be injuries or deaths as a result and the question was that he also applies for amnesty for this particular incident.

ADV GCABASHE: Just, this incident, Sotho Section is in Tokoza or in Katlehong?

MR NTEO: The Basotho Section that I'm referring to is in Tokoza and Tindwa is just close by.

ADV SANDI: Are you in a position to tell us as to the year in which this incident occurred?

MR NTEO: I don't remember the year, but it was immediately before the elections, or just before the elections.

ADV GCABASHE: Just one final question, you were talking about the Tindwa residents being killed and seeing those corpses, but you saw no IFP corpses. You are not saying that there is a possibility that your bullets shot the Tindwa residents? Are you ruling that out completely?

MR NTEO: I think I can explain that further. I believe that these people had been killed by members of Inkatha, because I did not attack people in houses, we were shooting and attacking towards the direction of Inkatha members who were approaching from an open field, but people in houses were surely attacked by Inkatha members.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have any other incidences? Oh, okay.

MR NTEO: Yes, there is another incident. I was in Slovo Section. I had been called upon to base at Slovo Section. As I had already pointed out that I specially enjoyed launching counter-attacks against Inkatha members, it happened that I broke the commander's rules, that is Sipho or Moosa's commands. I was staying at a certain house where we used to base. In that house it was myself, Sidney and Sibosiso.

ADV GCABASHE: If you are able to remember the surnames, please give them to us. It helps. If you can remember them.

MR NTEO: I'm very sorry, I don't remember the surnames. This house we were based in was the very first house along the border, that is our border. Whilst we were sleeping during the night, we used to put the guns outside the house and never kept them inside the house in case the police or the soldiers came, we did not want to be found in possession of firearms. Then at night on this particular day, it rained. We heard some cars or casspirs outside, the casspirs that were used by the Internal Stability Unit. These casspirs came to a halt just opposite the house that we were in and the others parked along Khubelo Street just close to the house we were in. We alerted each other and we peeped through the windows to see what was happening. Because we did not switch the lights off in one of the bedrooms, I think that is why this casspir parked opposite the house or in front of the house that we were in. Members of Inkatha alighted from the casspir. The casspir has got some bright lights on the side, so we were able to identify members of the Inkatha, and these members of Inkatha saw that one of the rooms, the lights were on, I think they were scared to approach or to attack, because they were not sure as to what was happening, because the other rooms were dark and this one room was having its lights on. We could see that they were having doubts, they were actually reluctant to come closer. They went back without having attacked or without having said a word, and they left. 

MR SIBEKO: Sorry, Mr Nteo, you say these were IFP people?

MR NTEO: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: It was at night, why do you say that?

MR NTEO: That is correct, it was at night.

MR SIBEKO: Are there any particular signs which showed that these were IFP people?

MR NTEO: I had already explained that if members of Inkatha Freedom Party were going to attack, they would adorn themselves with some red bandannas or red plastics on their heads, so that they would not be able to shoot each other or to attack each other. That is how they identified themselves, and I had already said that this casspir had some lights on its side, and when they got off the casspir, we could see that they were adorned in these red T-shirts and red bands on their heads, so we could actually see them, but they were scared to attack, because they did not know what was happening inside the house. I think there were eight of us inside the house, but I remember Sipho, Sidney and Sibosiso.

ADV GCABASHE: Sipho, Sipho Ngubane, which Sipho?

MR NTEO: Sidney, I'm sorry, I made a mistake, Sidney. We agreed amongst ourselves that as, or if the Internal Stability Unit confiscated the guns, the guns wouldn't be taken to the police station, but the guns would be handed over to members of Inkatha, and we decided amongst ourselves that we should launch a mission or an operation of some sort, with the intention of disarming members of the Inkatha and later killing them. The eight of us, I think there were about six of us who had AK47's in their possession, and amongst those AK47's there isn't anyone who had ammunition or bullets that amounted to more than ten, we all had less than ten bullets each. We agreed, we proceeded to Dube Street. We were walking between Dube and Sabe, that is in between two streets, these are the streets or the places that we referred to as our covers. We went and proceeded, that is after Sidney had gone into one of the toilets in the houses, he wanted to relieve himself, but when he got to the toilet, he had some suspicion that there were people who were living in that house, because the yard and the toilet was clean. We went past and got inside. As we were on the Sabe side of the street, there is a hedge tree or some hedge which was covering the actual fence, so we were not able to see what was happening on the other side because of these hedge trees, but we were able to see a member of Inkatha getting into the toilet and the next one was having an AK47 in his possession, and the AK47 was somehow concealed on his back.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, can I just get this right? You were in the one yard, Sidney was using the toilet, but you could see into the next door neighbour's house, the back opposite, in a sense, behind you, is this what you were looking at?

MR NTEO: Could I just rectify myself? The toilet, we had gone past that house, because he suspected, due to the cleanliness of the toilet, he suspected that there were probably people living in there, so we went past that house and proceeded to the other houses, and when we got to this particular yard, I went inside the house itself, that house had been abandoned, it was empty, and open, I wanted to peep through and see whether I could not see any Inkatha members, and as I was coming out of the house, after having discovered that I could not see any members of Inkatha, I heard some gunfire at that stage.

MR SIBEKO: Can he continue?

ADV GCABASHE: I must be frank, I'm a bit lost. What did you do with these two IFP members you saw, the one who went into the toilet and the other with the AK47, you just left them and walked past?

MR NTEO: I was still explaining that as we were in this yard, that is opposite to the yard or the house where the Inkatha people went, we did not want to act hastily, the other one was going towards the tap and the other one was getting into the toilet itself. I went inside the house, that is in the yard wherein we were, just to look if there weren't others in the opposite or neighbouring houses. I realised that there were no people. I went back, and as I was coming out of this house, I heard some gunfire. I saw Sidney lying down on the ground. When I tried to have a look at the opposite house, I could see an Inkatha member lying down, I think he had been shot, other members of the SDU had run away at that stage. I think only four of us were left behind at that time. We picked Sidney up and I think the area that we were attacking at that stage was an Inkatha stronghold, because there was this strong and rife gunfire that just went on at that time. When we were trying to pull Sidney, we saw one of the members of Inkatha coming towards us. He came to tell us that, where Sidney suspected or had said he suspected that there were people, there were now of the Inkatha members. When we realised that we were in their midst, I took some bullets from my other friend's AK and instructed him to go and ask for some assistance from other SDU members from the Slovo Section who were with us there. I kept a lookout outside. They took Sidney and put him inside the toilet.

ADV GCABASHE: Was Sidney still alive at this stage?

MR NTEO: Yes, he was still alive, he had a gunshot wound on the groin and he wasn't able to walk. Fortunately, the other SDU members who we had sent out from some back-up or assistance, came back timeously and one member of the SDU, who goes by the name of Jackson, his other name was Jamani, and he's the only one who was able to operate a G3 in Slovo Section.

ADV GCABASHE: What is a G3?

MR NTEO: A G3 is a rifle. I saw him coming, he used to walk in the middle of the street whenever he was fighting, he never used to duck and dive like us. I told my other brothers or comrades that we had got some assistance, or some assistance has arrived. They picked Sidney up and I was busy firing at the Inkatha members at the time in Dube Street, and I was shooting and retreating in order to be able to cover the people who were carrying Sidney away from the scene.

MR SIBEKO: The Inkatha people, were they shooting from the house, where exactly were they in this vicinity?

MR NTEO: Yes, some were shooting from the houses, and the others I think were shooting from the pavement, because at times when we fired, they would be coming from the houses and standing in the pavements. We were then able to leave the area safely, but after Sidney had been shot. We went back to our own area.

MR SIBEKO: In this shooting, are you in a position to state whether, as you were covering your comrades, are you in a position to tell us whether you hit the target or not?

MR NTEO: Yes, I do agree, there could have been somebody who was hit and consequently injured or killed, because my sole intention was to kill.

MR SIBEKO: And you also apply for amnesty for this incident?

MR NTEO: That is so.

MR SIBEKO: Now... (intervention).

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko, before you allude further another incident, what eventually became of Sidney, he was shot on the groin, did he survive this wound?

MR NTEO: Yes, Sidney was taken to the hospital and he survived the incident.

MR SIBEKO: Now when you started telling us about this incident, you referred to a house where you were based and the house which had one bedroom with its lights on, whose house was this?

MR NTEO: It's a house that was abandoned by the Mhlango, that's Bole's place, Bole Mahlangu, the one I referred to earlier on during my testimony, that was Bole's place.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that they left this house as a result of this ongoing violence?

MR NTEO: Yes, that is correct, they abandoned it because of the violence, because a lot of people in that area had already moved now and the street was now used by members of the SDU exclusively.

MR SIBEKO: Now that this house was in your side of the section, that is it was not on the other side where one can say it was the IFP stronghold, will I be correct to say that Bole's family was not IFP members or sympathisers?

MR NTEO: That is so.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

ADV GCABASHE: Just clarity again on this same incident, you started off by saying that it happened that you broke the commander's rules and you explained Sipho and Moosa were your commanders. Where does that little bit of testimony fit into this whole story, what rule had you broken, why do you mention it?

MR NTEO: What I was referring to is that each and every section of Tokoza had its own commander who was in charge of that particular section and what I wanted to point out was that I was in Lusaka Section, but because of the situation in Slovo Section, I realised that I could not wait for my commander to say I should go out and assist because that would take a lot of time and many people would have died, so I took my own initiative to take the AK47 and go to the other side of Slovo Section, that is the houses that were the first bases, that is where we based to protect the community.

ADV GCABASHE: So you were basing at this house without the authority of your commanders, you just decided to do it?

MR NTEO: That is correct. I'm speaking now for myself, because I'm the one who disregarded the rules, or I could say I went on my own initiative.

ADV GCABASHE: Were the other members you were with Slovo SDU members?

MR NTEO: That is so. The Slovo Section was a section of SDU members.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the panel?

ADV SANDI: No questions by me, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV GCABASHE: Some of the other incidents that have been mentioned, I immediately think of Mshayazafe, were you involved in that incident?

MR NTEO: Yes, I think I played a minor role. When I arrived, I think the people had already gone to the hostel and some were on the roof of the Mshayazafe Hostel with hammers and all assortment of weapons.

ADV GCABASHE: But you are not associating yourself with any of the acts that happened there, with any of the killing or the injuries?

MR NTEO: Yes, I would associate myself there, because whatever happened as a result of SDU members or anything towards the former government or the SDU, or should I say Internal Stability Unit, yes, I associate myself with that.

ADV GCABASHE: And you want amnesty for that as well, obviously?

MR NTEO: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: A couple of other incidents, there was the one about the man from Ngandla that we've heard about, I don't know if you were involved in that at all, there was also the chap who had a shack, I just forget his name, who had come to collect his things, who was shot as well, any of those incidents, are you involved there at all?

MR NTEO: No.

ADV GCABASHE: And then just to clarify for my own understanding, the incident where Bonga asked you to come and assist, that would be the Penduga, what's also called the Penduga incident, am I right? I'm just trying to link the different incidents that have been mentioned by other applicants.

MR NTEO: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you, Mr Nteo, thank you, chair.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nteo, thank you, you're excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;4TH DECEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;SAMUEL LESOLOLO KHOZA

APPLICATION NO: AM 7661/97

HELD AT:&#9;PALM RIDGE

DAY:&#9;&#9;9

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, who's next?

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Samuel Khoza. His application is on page 258, Lusaka A.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Mr Khoza, can you hear me?

MR KHOZA: Yes, I can hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Good.

SAMUEL LESOLOLO KHOZA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Mr Khoza, before we proceed, I observe that your application for amnesty was not signed, it doesn't have your signature?

MR KHOZA: By the time we filled out these forms, I was still in custody. The person who inquired about these things at the townships, I told them everything, I was not aware that I must attach my signature. He left. To date I didn't sign it.

MR SIBEKO: And you request that your application form be accepted as it is, is that correct?

MR KHOZA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that it is your application form and that you intend to apply for amnesty?

MR KHOZA: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko, please proceed.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka A?

MR KHOZA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Your commander was Moosa Masango, do you confirm that?

MR KHOZA: That is Moosa Msimango, not Masango as you said.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the unit, sir?

MR KHOZA: In 1993, that is when I joined the SDU.

MR SIBEKO: Were you involved in any incidences of violence before this stage?

MR KHOZA: Before 1993, there are incidents that I was involved in.

MR SIBEKO: Are those incidences before 1993, the ones that we have already heard about from Mr Ngubane and Mr Nteo and Mr Mhlauli?

MR KHOZA: The one that I'm referring to was in 1990 when taxi violence erupted in Katlehong before it came to Tokoza.

MR SIBEKO: Would you mind telling us about your involvement, your specific involvement?

MR KHOZA: It so happened that one day in 1990, we were relaxing during the day, but we would hear over the radio that people are being killed, and those that come from Tokoza, we saw are involved. I was in the company of Veli, who stayed in Spruit, I'm not sure about his domicilium. As people were being killed, we heard rumours that possibly Inkatha members that night are prepared to launch an attack in the township.

ADV GCABASHE: Was that Veli Nhlapho? What's the surname, Veli's surname?

MR KHOZA: As I said, I just met this person, I didn't inquire about his surname.

MR SIBEKO: But this Veli is from Katlehong not Tokoza, is that what you say?

MR KHOZA: Veli resides in Katlehong.

MR SIBEKO: And then you said whilst you were still with him you got an information to the effect that there would be an attack from IFP members the same evening, is that what you said?

MR KHOZA: That is correct, we heard such a rumour.

MR SIBEKO: Where did you get that information from?

MR KHOZA: That is something that we heard, that there are people who got into the hostel and that they were told that we're very alert, because some of them resided at the hostel and some in the location.

MR SIBEKO: What happened after you received that information?

MR KHOZA: What happened after we received that information, it was at about 3:00 in the afternoon, myself and those in my company, we decided to collect some money that we had. There was a garage nearby, next to Gadebe.

MR SIBEKO: Yes, and what happened?

MR KHOZA: After we got the money, we got a five litre container, we went to this garage to buy petrol. Our intention was to come and make petrol bombs, and we did so.

MR SIBEKO: Yes?

MR KHOZA: After making these petrol bombs, we made them at the Mkatesa School, we arranged with the caretaker to give us the keys to get into one of the classrooms to make petrol bombs. We did so. Since it was late, going towards six o'clock, we decided that we'll meet later on, because the attack would probably be launched at about nine o'clock the evening. 

MR SIBEKO: Yes?

MR KHOZA: Later on, after some time, the people from Everest, some were running, coming into the location along Schoeman Road that divides Katlehong and the hostels, there is this ground that is facing Everest, there were a lot of men, whether they were ready to attack or not, I was not sure, but there was a lot of them, men. People were summoned, men were summoned to go to that side, that is where I met these people that we made petrol bombs with. We took this case in which we put our petrol bombs in. We reached that place. I had four petrol bombs in my pockets and I had one in my hand, some were still in my pockets. As we approached this area where I saw this man, they were chanting songs that we had men from the location and with some of the younger boys. Men from the location were there to inquire from these others who were chanting songs what was happening, but we could not decide as to approach them or not. 

MR SIBEKO: Did you see the group of men that you are referring to, that is the group that was in the soccer field?

MR KHOZA: Yes, I could see them, because I was up front.

MR SIBEKO: Were those men armed, were they wearing any distinguishing, whatever they were wearing, was there anything that could be said was distinguishing them from any other main person?

MR KHOZA: They had something in their possession and I could identify their affiliation to an organisation, they had red headbands and red plastics.

MR SIBEKO: Out of that observation, what would you say those men were?

MR KHOZA: I then concluded that these are the people who are going to attack us in the evening, as I have said, because I had these four petrol bombs. As time went on, a police motor vehicle came from the side of the hostel where these men came from. We stopped this motor vehicle as it went down the road, we asked them to go to these men to move from that place. If not, something would happen to them. The police vehicle stopped and we talked to these police officers. They took some of us and we approached these people, but we were not in the vehicle, we were following this vehicle, many of us were left behind. When we got to these people, we were not that close as to we can touch each other, they were about ten feet from us. What happened, they were on this open field, but they went to Schoeman Road. Seemingly, now they wanted to create a situation where bedlam would erupt. The driver of this motor vehicle could foresee maybe he could be in a problem, he's between groups that might fight at any time. The driver sped away, I don't know where he went, thereafter we were facing this group. Now we just had to defend for ourselves. There were men who had guns and there was exchange of fire and they retreated. Seemingly they didn't have firearms, they had knopkieries and spears. We chased them until we got to the houses next to Gadebe and there was this Magade. As we chased them, there are those who got into the houses. There was one that I got, I caught up with, and as they ran away, I threw in these petrol bombs and I ignited these bombs.

MR SIBEKO: Did I hear you got... (intervention).

ADV GCABASHE: The houses that they ran into, were these houses occupied by IFP people or occupied by people who were not associated with IFP?

MR KHOZA: At that time you could not distinguish between IFP 

and those who are not aligned with the IFP. The people that we 

were fighting against were those who came from the hostels. 

There was not this distinction that we could make.

ADV GCABASHE: Now you threw your petrol bombs, where did you throw that petrol bomb, were you throwing it into those houses?

MR KHOZA: I did explain that the petrol bombs that I threw, I threw them amongst these people who were running. I was just about to explain what happened.

MR SIBEKO: Before you continue, you said whilst you were throwing your petrol bombs, you could see one of those men who were running, he was running away, is that one he was hit by the petrol bomb as a result of which he was on fire, is that what you said?

MR KHOZA: That is the one who caught fire when I threw the petrol bomb. I don't know what happened thereafter. I went ahead, there were others who came after me, what they did to that person I can't tell. When we reached this house at Gadebe, there is one who ran into a certain yard, trying to hide himself with some shrubs or flowers. The lady in that yard was looking through the window, could see that this one person who was hiding himself or herself at the flowers, then she shouted that "There is one who is hiding in my yard". With the petrol bombs that we had, but I was not alone in that, we poured him with this petrol and we set him alight. Some had their pangas and they hit him. We left him for dead. That is what I wanted to explain with regard to incidents in 1990.

MR SIBEKO: Now your evidence is, after you found this man who was hiding himself in that flower garden, you poured petrol on him, some of you were carrying pangas and you set him alight, what specific acts did you do to this particular man?

MR KHOZA: I poured him with petrol, that is what I did.

MR SIBEKO: You only poured petrol, you didn't light him?

MR KHOZA: I poured him with petrol. We were many of us trying to deal with this man.

MR SIBEKO: You acknowledge that you have contributed in this man's death, is that correct?

MR KHOZA: Yes, I agree, because if I did not pour him with petrol, he could not have been set alight.

MR SIBEKO: You said you don't know what happened to the one who was running away, the one that you threw him with the petrol bomb, you don't know what happened to him?

MR KHOZA: I don't know what happened to him. I never bothered myself with what would happen to him.

MR SIBEKO: You seek amnesty for those incidences, for the two incidences that you - setting the one on fire and then pouring petrol which led to the death of this one who you found in this garden, is that correct?

MR KHOZA: That is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just explain to me, the first one, you poured petrol over him or you threw the petrol bomb at him, I know you ran straight past him after that, but what exactly did you do to him, the first one?

MR KHOZA: What happened, you mix a lot of components and you have a rag that you leave hanging on the top of the bottle, and I lighted this rag and, because it was on fire, this rag, I threw this thing to this man and it hit him, that's what happened.

ADV GCABASHE: It exploded as it hit him and his clothes caught fire, is that what happened?

MR KHOZA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: You did not even hear subsequently what happened to this man, from people talking about what had happened between your group and this particular group?

MR KHOZA: No, subsequently I never heard a thing, because none of us died, because no-one cared what happened to whoever.

MR SIBEKO: Would you exclude the possibility of this person having been killed by a group in the midst of the turmoil that was taking place at that time there?

MR KHOZA: Yes, I can agree that he died, because I did what I did and I ran past him, there were others who were following behind, maybe they did something to this man. When we came back, we chose another route. As we were chasing them, they chased us as we ran back, we never bothered to see what happened to so and so. Some of them were left behind at the gates and chanting songs. Thereafter there was gunfire, sort of an automatic gun that was firing shots. It was quite difficult at that time. You would understand that I would not bother myself with people that I might have done a thing to them, and those that I was with or who were in my company, I didn't bother what had happened to them.

MR SIBEKO: So we should take it that this person must have been killed in the same way as the second one?

MR KHOZA: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: You say before the clash actually erupted, these people were singing. Are you able to recall what these songs were saying, what were the words of these songs?

MR KHOZA: The songs that they used to chant have no meaning. If you would like me to chant the song, I would. Mostly when they went to chant songs, they would bring young boys.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but Mr Khoza, I'm not asking you to sing those songs, but if you can say what words were contained in those songs, but if you don't remember the words that went with these songs, you can leave it? What was it, was it hymns or was it pop songs, or was it fighting songs or what was it?

MR KHOZA: I did not understand the question, those were war songs.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR SIBEKO: Is there anything that you want to add on this?

MR KHOZA: Thereafter I was not actively involved in the things that took place until '93. In 1993, I joined the SDU. There were circumstances that made me to join it. There are cars that drive past shooting at people at night vigilance, people were forcibly removed out of their houses at Kenduga, because I could foresee this might even reach my home. I never liked that, so I decided before these people reach my home and shoot my family, I must start defending the community.

MR SIBEKO: What specific acts were you involved in?

MR KHOZA: In the first instance we used to patrol and barricade roads in the location, we used to attend meetings as SDU members only, we discussed as to how we would protect the community. Those are the things that I did, until the community got together and gathered some funds so that we did not defend through words or stones or petrol bombs, if a person shoots at you, you would not wait for him to shoot you, so you were prepared to shoot back. That is how I got active into these things. In 1993, it so happened that whilst walking with Mulabise, we were just walking around and we landed at the shops, we saw this casspir, sorry it was a Nyala, five men alighted out of this casspir, some of them were wearing coats, because this car was coming from Tshabalala Street... (intervention).

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, I didn't get that, some were wearing what, combs or coats?

MR KHOZA: Some were - coats. As we saw these people, we never wanted to ask them where they come from, "Who are you?", why the police are leaving you here, we concluded that is the enemy, the police brought them here, maybe they would shoot, afterwards run away. That was quite a known factor that the stability officials would come and drop off people there and thereafter would come and pick them up and leave with them, and you found people being killed thereafter, so we did not want to experience this, because we saw them alighting out of that car. Some of us ran to get AK's. Where we were at the shops during the day we had to put some arms not far from that shop. We chased these people. They ran away. Fortunately, and unfortunately for the one that we were chasing, we caught up with him. We then asked him where he came from. He said he's from Penduka, he came with these police, that they were going to fetch someone from our section in Lusaka. We never asked him, "Why are you going to catch this man here?" Those who ran away might have had firearms, because they were wearing these coats, so Mulabise, who had the AK47, forgive me for being fast, Mulabise, as we called him Mushegas, shot at this person. This guy was alone. We could not use all our AK's, shoot the single person with many AK's, a person who said whatever he said at that time. He was then killed, as such, and the police came to fetch him the next morning.

MR SIBEKO: You associated yourself with Mulabise's conduct, is that correct?

MR KHOZA: Yes, I associated myself with it because I chased this person and I had a firearm, if Mulabise did not do it, I could have done it.

MR SIBEKO: You seek amnesty for the unlawful possession of that AK and causing of then the death of this person that you ran after, is that correct?

MR KHOZA: That is correct, I seek amnesty. Again in 1994, around January, this was not a message, at Lusaka Section, which is next to Slovo Section, everything that happened at Slovo Section, if maybe there's gunfire, I would hear that, and if there's fight that ensued, I would hear, if people are playing with guns, we would hear that. On that day, you could tell through this gunfire that a battle ensued. Those that were in my company, the 21 Battalion, as we referred to ourselves, we had 21 AK47's, we left as the 21 Battalion, we divided ourselves in three groups of seven each, we assisted our fellow comrades at Slovo Section. We managed to push these people out of the section. Most of the empty houses, we regarded them as houses belonging to residents that were forcibly removed out of the location. When everything became stable, when these police came in, we left for Khumalo Street. We have a section that was the Basotho Section, we have a place that we made our own shooting range, others went to this shooting range and they observed what was happening up ahead. The duty that I used to do, also carrying a firearm, was that when the 21 Battalion or the SDU members were hungry, I would be informed. The ladies in the township would inform me where the battalion, the SDU members would get food. Each parent would allow that we would come and eat at her house, so I would tell them that at a certain street in such and such a section at this time, we would go and eat there. We had our messengers who would bring such information to me, so I told them that so and so that you tell these guys to go and eat at a certain place. As we retreated we left our guns there, because the situation was not yet stable, it was quite tense, the reason being that as you passed Khumalo and trying to get to the Basotho Section, a bullet was just passed by. We never thought that we must be all of us as the 21 Battalion or others from Lusaka. Everybody knew where to go and eat. Others arrived. Some of us could not arrive because along the route there was this explosion that I never heard before, I thought Tokoza was up in flames. We decided that we forget about the food until the situation became stable. We found a big hole at the hostel, it was a confusion. I had this AK, I shot at these people who were still around, these people from Khumalo were up at the end of the street. There are shops along that street and there was these trucks, people were watching at what happened, there was this one casspir, so called Mamba, there were a lot of people from both sides. Those in the street were not shooting, but there was just exchange of fire, others were inside the hostel, so they managed to get there but I could not because I ran out of ammunition. So I came to the shooting range and I used a thoroughfare, got into one house and I asked this woman to hide this gun for me. She agreed. I asked her if she does not have a spade or a hammer so that I could go and assist, as I didn't have ammunition. This AK was just like a knopkierie. I would not carry such a knopkierie, because if the police would come across, we will be in trouble. This woman gave me a five pounds hammer. I took it along. My aim was to get to this hostel and break the wall, we wanted to put the hostel down to the ground. I never reached my aim. I came to a certain place. There were some whites, because seemingly one of the photographers who was white was killed. There were two of them. The other one was carrying this white photographer and summoned for the casspir to take this person. Bafana Boloyi was also killed and a lot of them who stayed in Gobe Section, I forget their names now, such people passed away. That is when we retreated, because the soldiers also appeared at the scene, because soldiers would not ask and would shoot at you on sight, so we retreated. That is what I did on that day, I shot at the hostel and in the township before we left for the hostel, so I'm seeking amnesty if there was somebody who got injured whilst I was shooting, that is what I did.

MR SIBEKO: Now, you have a few incidences which you have - some of the applicants have already testified about. If I'm not mistaken it's Mandela, Mandela Section, 1994, and you were also involved in that incident?

MR KHOZA: That is correct, I did participate at Mandela.

MR SIBEKO: You also apply for amnesty for your participation there?

MR KHOZA: That is correct, I seek amnesty on that score.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Questions, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel?

ADV SANDI: Mr Khoza, what did you do at the Mandela Section?

MR KHOZA: At Mandela Section, what happened on that day, or what I did on that day, as I said, we divide ourselves in three groups when we go and launch an attack. Others would tell that the two-way radio, through it we got a message that we must go and assist them. When there are covering groups and we had an assault group, we had two covering groups, I was in the first covering group, meaning I was assisting those who were going to launch the attack itself, so we were on guard that nobody would get us unawares, maybe the police or the enemy from behind, so we'll be facing the enemy, or anybody would come across us, so we are just assisting these people to launch the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Any other questions?

ADV GCABASHE: Just give me one or two of your comrades' names who were with you, people who have given evidence on this incident?

MR KHOZA: Those comrades who were present was Moosa Msimango, Kenneth Mabizela was there on that day, Steven Ngubane, those are the people I can recall at the moment who were present on that day.

ADV GCABASHE: Steve Ngubane is Sipho Ngubane, thank you.

MR KHOZA: That is correct.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Khoza, you're excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for lunch.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;4TH DECEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;VUSUMUZI KENNETH MABIZELA

APPLICATION NO: AM 7762/96&#9;&#9;&#9;

HELD AT:&#9;PALM RIDGE

DAY:&#9;&#9;9

______________________________________________________

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, who is the next applicant?

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is Mr Kenneth Vusumuzi Mabizela. His application appears on page 321, Lusaka A.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mabizela, do you hear?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

VUSUMUZI KENNETH MABIZELA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Mr Mabizela, you've also applied for amnesty, is that correct?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct. 

MR SIBEKO: Were you also a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka A?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: You confirm that Mr Moosa Msimango was your commander?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct if I say that you joined the Self Defence Unit in 1993?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have incidences of violence that you were involved in before the year 1993?

MR MABIZELA: No.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have specific acts of - do you have incidences wherein you were involved after 1993 as a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Kindly tell us of those incidences?

MR MABIZELA: I was involved in Mandela Section in a kombi, and the matter at Mazibugu, I was also involved in the matter that took place at Mazibugu Street.

MR SIBEKO: Where a kombi was attacked, is it the same incidence that was referred to by Mr Ngubane?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: What was your role in that incident?

MR MABIZELA: I went to hit a target there.

MR SIBEKO: By a target, are you referring to this kombi?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, I'm referring to the kombi.

MR SIBEKO: Were you carrying any weapon?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, I was armed with an AK47 rifle.

MR SIBEKO: Did you fire any shots towards this kombi?

MR MABIZELA: Yes I did.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to tell us whether you hit the target, and if so you could injure or kill the occupants of that kombi?

MR MABIZELA: I did hit the target, because I was aiming at it.

MR SIBEKO: Yes, but are you in a position to tell us whether your bullet injured or killed anybody who was in the kombi?

MR MABIZELA: I think I managed to injure people inside, because the bullets reached the kombi, the bullet hit the kombi.

MR SIBEKO: You're applying for amnesty for this particular, in fact for your unlawful possession of the AK and you shooting towards this kombi or causing injury or death to anybody who might have been involved in that - who might have been in the kombi?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Now you have also mentioned that you were involved in an incident at Mazibugu Street. When was this incident?

MR MABIZELA: It took place in 1994.

MR SIBEKO: Is this incident the one that was referred to by Mr Ngubane again which occurred at, what's the section, is it Slovo or Mandela?

MR MABIZELA: Mandela. Yes, that is the same incident.

MR SIBEKO: What was your role in this incident?

MR MABIZELA: I was in the covering group. As I was in the covering group, I was waiting for the people going out, I was in the first covering group. We would wait for them and go on with the fight, so we would wait for them until they come out of the place. 

ADV GCABASHE: Until they come out of which place?

MR MABIZELA: In the entrance.

ADV GCABASHE: You were waiting for the IFP people to come out of their places so you could shoot at them, or you were waiting for your comrades who were retreating and you were giving them cover, which of the two is it, just help me?

MR MABIZELA: We would wait for our comrades on their way out.

MR SIBEKO: Were you carrying an AK47 in this incident?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Did you get any opportunity of using your AK47 as you were in the covering group?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Tell us what happened?

MR MABIZELA: The first group that went in, on their way out we went inside and fired, we were actually shooting at the people, at the IFP people who were inside.

ADV GCABASHE: If you can just be explicit, inside where, just to help us, because right now we have so many incidents in our mind and it's in the same area, so it helps us identify which one you're talking about if you're just a little more specific. Thanks.

MR MABIZELA: As the group went in, into Mazibugu, we were running in the covers among the houses.

MR SIBEKO: Now who exactly did you direct your shots at when your comrades exited from the area where the fight was?

MR MABIZELA: We were directing at IFP members.

ADV GCABASHE: Where exactly were these IFP members, in houses, in the hostel, on the street?

MR MABIZELA: They were running up and down and we were also doing the same thing, but we could see them, and they could see us and we were shooting, and we were taking covers also. The others were falling, but I didn't know who were falling, I didn't know their names.

MR SIBEKO: So it's possible that, as a result of your shots, you could have injured or killed somebody from, or a number of people from the IFP members?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And you're applying for amnesty for carrying that AK47 and for the shooting that you made?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident?

MR SIBEKO: Yes, the incident of Mshayazafe. I was also in the covering group, first covering group, but I did not manage to reach the wall as the other comrades went through the opening. At Mpazane Street, the houses at Mpazane Street were actually facing the hostel. We were shooting and some comrades got inside and I was actually keeping guard on the ISU. One comrade passed away, whose name was Stoffel, and he was brought out of that place, but he went in there without an AK47, but when they were taking him, they brought him to me and the other comrades from the other sections were there. I took this comrade to one of the houses there.

MR SIBEKO: Is this the incident that occurred in 1994?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: You were carrying an AK47 in this particular incident?

MR MABIZELA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Sibeko, just give us a second, we're just talking about something ...(indistinct).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sibeko, carry on please.

MR SIBEKO: Now, in this incident at Mazayazafi, did you get an opportunity of using your AK47?

MR MABIZELA: No.

MR SIBEKO: But you associate yourself with the conduct of your comrades who got an opportunity of getting inside the hostel and fire some shots towards the IFP people, is that correct?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And you are applying for amnesty for that attack and your carrying of an unlawful firearm, is that correct?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident that you want us to know?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, the incident at Slovo Section.

MR SIBEKO: When was this incident at Slovo Section?

MR MABIZELA: It was in 1994.

MR SIBEKO: What happened?

MR MABIZELA: We got a message at Lusaka Section that the IFP had infiltrated, so they were looking for some assistance. We went there to assist them, as our commander had already said, and Ngubane was his deputy. I went to another group seven, I went to Dagani Street. We were already mixed with the other sections, even the comrades from Slovo already there. The role I played there, I was shooting, shooting at the IFP members.

MR SIBEKO: Were you carrying a pistol or an AK47?

MR MABIZELA: I was armed with an AK47 rifle.

MR SIBEKO: Do you know whether you, as a result of your shooting, anybody might have died or got injured, that is from the side of the IFP?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, people were injured, even from our own group.

MR SIBEKO: But you don't rule out the possibility that there could be others who might have died from the side of the IFP?

MR MABIZELA: I cannot say, because the people were shooting and the people would fall and we would proceed.

MR SIBEKO: But it's possible that some of them might have died as a result of the shooting, is that correct? 

MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is possible.

MR SIBEKO: And you take the responsibility as one of the people who fired shots towards the IFP members, is that correct?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And as a result you are applying for amnesty for this incident and for carrying an unlawful firearm?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other incident?

MR MABIZELA: No, there's nothing else.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Questions, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions by the panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Chair. Mr Mabizela, where did you keep this firearm?

MR MABIZELA: I did not have a choice, I had to keep a firearm because I was a member of the SDU.

ADV SANDI: Now what I'm trying to establish is whether the firearm was continuously in your possession?

MR MABIZELA: No, I would get it from my commander, Moosa Msimango.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, thank you Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mabizela, the Mazibugu incident, it could have been December '93, or it could have been in '94?

MR MABIZELA: If my memory serves me well, it was in 1994.

ADV GCABASHE: Were there a number of incidents at Mazibugu that you know of, apart from the one in '94?

MR MABIZELA: I cannot say because I was only involved in two incidents and the one at Mandela Section.

ADV GCABASHE: But it is possible that there were more that you were not involved in?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is possible.

ADV GCABASHE: Just remind me, the Slovo Section, this last one you referred to, was that the one when Bonga sent the message that they needed help?

MR MABIZELA: Bonga was not at Slovo Section, but he was at Mandela Section.

ADV GCABASHE: So really what you talked about, the Mazibugu Street incident in 1994, when you went with Sipho Ngubane, would that have been the one where Bonga asked for assistance from you, that's the one that happened at Mandela Section?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: This incident at Slovo Section, was that just before the elections? Do you know when it happened in relation to the election?

MR MABIZELA: It took place before the elections.

ADV GCABASHE: Give me a rough estimate as to whether it would have been in January or in April, in relation to those May, the April elections rather, would it have been towards April or more in the early part of the year, just if you can remember?

MR MABIZELA: If I'm not mistaken, I think it was in April.

ADV GCABASHE: Tell me, you say that you weren't involved in any incidents prior to 1993, are you then excluding any patrols, any barricading, you were not involved in any of those activities?

MR MABIZELA: Yes, I was involved in barricading and patrolling.

ADV GCABASHE: And that would have been before 1993?

MR MABIZELA: It took place in 1993.

ADV GCABASHE: Are there any incidents in relation to barricading and patrolling that you seek amnesty for? You know, if you did nothing but just patrolled, and you didn't search people, you didn't harass or assault them, then of course there's nothing to apply for, but if there was any form of assault or any form of a violation of their rights, you may want to apply for amnesty for that in that case, you know just during the barricading and patrolling incidents?

MR MABIZELA: There is something that I did during the patrolling and barricading, and I'm applying for amnesty for that.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, but you just need to give us an idea as to what something is. It could have been killing somebody, I wouldn't know, just give us an idea, "When I was patrolling, this is the type of thing I did. When I barricaded, this is the type of thing I might have done", just one sentence, one sentence.

MR MABIZELA: As we were barricading, we used to patrol and assault people. If we see people with a sharp object or firearms, we would confiscate them. We would accompany that particular person to his or her home and we would proceed with our job patrolling and barricading.

ADV GCABASHE: But you didn't do any of this before 1993? I just want to cover everything that we've heard in the last week and a bit, in fact in the last two weeks, just to make sure that you are not leaving anything out, pre-1993 you didn't do any barricading and patrolling, like some of your other comrades?

MR MABIZELA: No, I was never involved, I started in 1993.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you very much, thank you Chair.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Mabizela, thank you, you're excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;4TH DECEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;PHODI EDDY KHAMBULE

APPLICATION NO: AM 7736/97 &#9;&#9;

HELD AT:&#9;PALM RIDGE

DAY:&#9;&#9;9

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Sibeko, what else have you got lined up?

MR SIBEKO: I've got the last applicant in uniform and that will be it for myself.

CHAIRPERSON: All right. No, no, that's good, and just in passing, we've assumed that Mr Mabizela is in the same position as the other people, that the present situation has got nothing to do with the... (intervention).

MR SIBEKO: Yes, Mr Chairman, as far as all the applicants from ...(indistinct) are concerned, it has nothing to do with what you are dealing with here.

CHAIRPERSON: Excellent. Would you call that remaining one?

MR SIBEKO: Mr Eddy Khambule, his application is on page 313, Lusaka A.

SIMON PHODI EDDY KHAMBULE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Mr Khambule, you have also applied for amnesty, is that correct?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you a member of the Self Defence Unit, Lusaka A?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: When did you become a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR KHAMBULE: In 1993.

MR SIBEKO: Do you confirm that Mr Moosa Msimango was your commander?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have any incidences of violence wherein you were involved prior to 1993?

MR KHAMBULE: No.

MR SIBEKO: Were you not involved in patrols and barricades prior to 1993?

MR KHAMBULE: No.

MR SIBEKO: Are there incidences wherein you were involved after 1993 as a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Tell us about those incidences, sir?

MR KHAMBULE: The incident at Mazibugu. We got a message. As we were residing at Lusaka A, we were using a certain code, an alarm, if it rings it means something. When this alarm rang, we got a commander who told us that he received a message that we are supposed to assist at Mazibugu, supposed to assist at Phulamgashe, Comrade Bonga, who was known to Mandela Section. We left there as the SDU members, we took a shortcut through Mavumbele Section, Nyala Section and Thela Section up to Mandela. When we arrived there, we went to a base where the SDU members were staying from Mandela Section. Bonga pointed us the place that was their boundary, and there, beyond that particular crossing line was the IFP territory. I was armed with an AK47 rifle.

ADV GCABASHE: Can you just tell me, you say he pointed out the boundary and beyond that was IFP territory, but you are talking about houses?

MR KHAMBULE: There was a place where the SDU members from Mandela Sections were staying and there were houses that they aren't occupied, and there would be a territory that was occupied by the IFP members.

ADV GCABASHE: So you'd have the boundary with your community on one side, on the other side a row of empty houses or whatever, and beyond that IFP housing, go backwards, going to that way?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Just again help me locate the nearest hostel on the IFP side, in that picture I now have in my mind, which would have been the nearest IFP hostel on that side, because we were told that they essentially were all around Tokoza, so Mazibugu area, which is the nearest IFP hostel, hostels 1 and 2?

MR KHAMBULE: These hostels were differentiated into three, there was Hosiahzafe, Mazibugu and something else. The street that we used when we were coming in, it was not next to Khumalo, but we were next to houses. I am not sure which hostel was nearer to those houses.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: But Mr Khambule, was there a kind of a no-go area between the ANC supporting side and the IFP supporting side?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, there was a no-go area.

CHAIRPERSON: And if you venture in there, then you expose yourself to attacks?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now, in trying to explain, I heard you referring to Hosiahzafe, Kutuza, and you don't have the name of the third hostel, did I hear you correctly, when the question was that which could be the nearest hostel?

MR KHAMBULE: The hostel is in Khumalo Street, it has got some blocks and the gates have got different names, gates to different blocks, there were three hostels, and we went into the hostel through the other street where there was a hostel.

MR SIBEKO: I can safely say the nearest hostel is the - of the three hostels, that is Kutuza, Hosiahzafe and then the third one, those could be the nearest hostels around?

MR KHAMBULE: No. As I'm explaining to you, this hostel, this hostel building is very long, it's going down the street, maybe Kutuza was nearer to Mazibugu and the block would go down up to a section called Sisulu, between Sisulu and the petrol stations. Bongo pointed us the place where the IFP members were. We wanted to get to Mr Mafulele's house, who was the one who was regarded as powerful in the IFP members. We went there with the other comrades who were the SDU members. It was Sipho Steven Ngubane, Ngosane Aron Tshabalala, Gideon Sakkie Msamango, Hobisiso Tshabalala and the others, of which I can't remember their names. We were... (intervention).

MR SIBEKO: Now, will you repeat the names of the people you were with when you went to this house?

MR KHAMBULE: When we left, we were about 21, we called ourselves the 21 Battalion, we were divided into three groups of seven, the other seven was the assault group and the other seven was the covering group and the other one was the retreat group. In the assault group, it was myself and Steven Sipho Ngubane and Ngosane Aron Tshabalala, Gideon Sakkie Msagmango, Hobisiso Tshabalala, and the others, I cannot remember their names. We reached the place. We were shooting the IFP members and they were also shooting at us. This took place until some of the shacks were burnt down. In the war it is a common thing that people get injured and even their shacks were burnt down.

MR SIBEKO: What was the cause of the damage to the shacks, that is the shacks burnt down, who burnt those shacks?

MR KHAMBULE: I won't know, because no-one had petrol, we were only armed with AK47 rifles. Perhaps there were primus stoves that were being used and the other things like paraffin, but we don't know what was the cause of fire, because this was, this situation was very tense.

ADV GCABASHE: Did people live in these shacks, or were these abandoned shacks?

MR KHAMBULE: There were people who were living in the shacks.

ADV GCABASHE: Were these shacks on your side of the boundary or on the IFP side of the boundary?

MR KHAMBULE: It was on the IFP side.

MR SIBEKO: Now when you saw this fire, could you see whether there were people coming out of those shacks or not?

MR KHAMBULE: I saw only two people, and we chased them in such a way that they were shot and they fell, and after that we did not see anyone.

MR SIBEKO: So it's possible that when these shacks were burning, there could have been people who were inside?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is possible.

MR SIBEKO: And you acknowledge that if they were injured or they died as a result of this fire, it's possible that it was through your shooting?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: And you are applying for amnesty in this regard?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And then the two that you ran after, because your evidence is that the two were injured as a result of your bullets, do you know what ultimately happened to them?

MR KHAMBULE: No, I don't know what happened, because we had to retreat.

MR SIBEKO: You also take responsibility for their injuries, is that so?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And you are applying for amnesty in this regard?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: What happened - is there anything that you would want to add on this incident?

MR KHAMBULE: All I can say is this, after that, we retreated and we went back to Lusaka Section and nothing else happened thereafter.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have any other incident?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, there is something else. It was the incident at Mshayazafe Hostel. It was early in the morning, we heard the gunfire, we heard gunshots. As I've already said, that if there was something happening, the alarm would ring and we went out to the meeting point. The gunshots were coming from Slovo direction, and we left there as the 21 Battalion, and when we went there, we could see that the situation was really bad. There were members of SPU, the Self Protection Unit, and there were members of SDU. As we knew where was the enemy and we knew where it was, and we assisted the other comrades of the Self Defence Unit. We exchanged gunfire until the ISU came, and when the ISU came, we had to retreat, because we knew that we are going to experience problems because they would be assisting on the other side, so we had to retreat. We left our firearms at Khumalo Street and decided to go and take a rest and have something to eat. We went back to Lusaka Section. I'm one of the people who managed to reach the section. As we were still sitting there, we heard a sound, a loud sound that was like an explosive, explosion, we heard an explosion. We did not take it seriously at first, but when we heard it for the second time now, we just decided that maybe something is going on, but we knew that we had no explosives in our sections, or even among the members of the SDU's, no-one had an explosive. We thought that there are people who are trying to destroy the townships, the township. We went out, we rushed to Khumalo Street. We were in the house - we went into the house where our ammunition was, and we took the ammunition and the firearms and we proceeded. We exchanged gunfire with the member of SPU and we were too powerful for them and they had to go back. We managed to get into the hostel through the opening. As we were getting into that hostel, one comrade whose name was Stoffel Ngele, climbed on top of the hostel with a hammer in his hand. While he was still up there and he was shot at the head and he fell down, and when we went to him, he was already dead. That made me very angry, I just decided there also, because my comrade had died, we went into the hostel, it was Steven Sipho Ngubane who was also there, and Hobisiso Tshabalala and Gideon Sakkie Msagmango, we went inside, there was confusion inside and the people running away, that is when we started shooting. We fired there and when we heard the police casspirs coming, we left the place. When we left the hostel, we realised that some of our comrades had fallen. That was Comrade Bafana Boloyi and Prince Thlajawo, who was residing at Umbeli Street, myself and Stoffel Ngele, we went back with Stoffel Ngele and we left him at his home and the others took Prince to his home, and Comrade Bafana Boloyi died at the hospital on the very same day. When we went back, our aim was to go back to Khumalo Street and wait for the SANDF to leave, so that we could go back to Khumalo. When we went to Khumalo, we found that there was Tokyo Sekwale, the former Gauteng premier, who tried to cool us down and he told us not to kill one another like that as a nation. We had to stop and we went back. That was the end on that particular day.

MR SIBEKO: Now, all the time you were carrying your rifle, is that correct?

MR KHAMBULE: What time are you referring to, on our way back or... (intervention).

MR SIBEKO: The first time when you went there, before you decided to go back to your section for lunch or for your rest, and then you went back again when you heard that explosive or whatever, you were carrying your arm, is that correct?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, when we left for the first time we had them, but when we decided to go and take a rest, we had left them somewhere, and then from the section, we went back to the place where our arms were.

MR SIBEKO: There were exchanges of fire before you went back to your section?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is true.

MR SIBEKO: It's possible that you might have killed or injured a number of people, that is the IFP members?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is possible.

MR SIBEKO: And you are applying for amnesty for your participation herein?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is true.

MR SIBEKO: And the second time you managed to get through the hole, and you went right through inside the hostel where you also fired shots, is that correct?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is true.

MR SIBEKO: It's also possible that you might have injured or killed a number of people there?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is possible.

MR SIBEKO: And you're also applying for amnesty for this incident?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Is there any other thing that you'd want to add?

MR KHAMBULE: No, there is nothing else.

MR SIBEKO: Is that all that you are applying for amnesty?

MR KHAMBULE: No, there's still more.

MR SIBEKO: What else were you involved in?

MR KHAMBULE: The other matter is barricading and patrolling in our communities. During our patrols, we were having the sjamboks and the firearms. If we happened to find someone with a firearm that was unlawfully possessed, we would have problems, we would experience problems, we would hear the gunshots and we didn't even know where they were coming from. We had our own policies, that if there was someone who will be possessing an unlawful firearm, that should be confiscated, so if it happens that someone is killed, we wanted to be the only people to be responsible for that, so we just decided that if someone has got a firearm and we don't know anything about that, that he's supposed to be taken to our commander, that firearm should be taken to the commander, that should be handed over. If your firearm is licensed, we would do nothing, because that means a person would have a permission. So we were actually avoiding problems in our community, because the people's lives in our communities were in our hands, and even during the barricading, when we were barricading the roads, the streets, the cars that would come into the sections during the night would use a certain code and they knew what to do if they get to the township at a certain time of the day. If that car would just come anyhow, we would know that that car does not belong to our community. Through all those actions, we would harass people by actions and by talking, and I would like to ask for amnesty for that type of harassment.

MR SIBEKO: Would that be all?

MR KHAMBULE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Questions, Advocate Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, sir.

ADV SANDI: What exactly did you do to these people who came with vehicles bearing registration letters which were not known to you? 

MR KHAMBULE: If that person was not using that code, we would ask him, and we would even ask where that particular person was going and we would even accompany him to that particular person, and if he was not prepared to explain and we would explain our problems to him and tell him that there were cars that were used and people would be killed by people driving those cars and run away, so we would explain such problems.

ADV SANDI: Are there any specific incidents during which something wrong was done to these people, such as the beating up or the burning of their cars?

MR KHAMBULE: That never happened. We would harass people, whereby we would harass people, whereby we never actually damaged their properties.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Khambule, thank you, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn the proceedings at this stage until Monday, I think it's the 7th of December, if I'm not mistaken. We will reconvene here at 10:30 on Monday, the 7th of December.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

