&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: &#9;21.05.97&#9;&#9;&#9;

NAME: &#9;CLEMENT SIPHO MNISI 

CASE: &#9;JB 2117

HELD AT: PIET RETIEF 

DAY 1

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DR BORAINE: Mr Mnisi thank you for coming to be with us today. What you are going to tell us about are events that took place not so long ago, only in 1993 and they involve not only what happened to you but also what happened to other people and they tell a particular story about the situation here in Piet Retief and specifically in Thandukukhanya. Excuse me asking but it seems necessary for your story to ask how old you are now.

MR MNISI: Nineteen years old.

DR BORAINE: So in 1993 you were 15?

MR MNISI: That is correct. I'll ask you please to start telling us your story but also please to tell us about Situli Shleza(?) as well and why his name is also important. Thank you.

MR MNISI: I greet you all and I would like to know how you are because I'm fine. In 1993 at Thandukukhanya there was going to be a memorial service that, that is Situli Shleza's memorial service. He died on the 3rd of the same month of the previous year. 1992 and we were waking people up at night. We kept on waking the people up at night so that we could convene for the memorial service that was going to be held on the 3rd of that month in that year. 

&#9;As we were still conducting ...(indistinct) we got to

Thandukukhanya in Richards Bay at Sinobile School, next to the school. I was leading the group, I was pushing a tyre which was burning and at some stage the fire went off from the tyre, the fire was extinguished and I collected some papers to try and reignite it so that we could see the road all the way ahead. As I was still collecting the papers and I just arranged them and set them alight my face became visible and that's when they shot me because it was light where I was standing as I was holding the tyre. 

&#9;I fell down at this stage, and when I came to I saw a big light. I don't know where that light came from. I tried to run away and when I did so I could hear some gun fire behind me, I escaped to another street where I discovered some other youths whom I told that I had been injured and I was taken to the hospital in a car.

DR BORAINE: Just take your time please. 

MR MNISI: I went to the hospital, the Piet Retief Hospital, and I was taken from it Natal Spruit Hospital where I remained for the whole month. Then I came back to Piet Retief where I discovered that some of the youths that we were with at that time had mysteriously disappeared.

DR BORAINE: Take some water. Maybe it would help a little bit if you told us about your own group. Were you still all at school?

MR MNISI: Yes we were attending school all of us.

DR BORAINE: In Thandukukhanya?

MR MNISI: Yes that is correct.

DR BORAINE: And you say these people, when you came back, you say they were no longer there. What do you think happened to them?

MR MNISI: They had died. The other ones who died were the ones we were with that particular night.

DR BORAINE: Did you discover how they died?

MR MNISI: Yes I did discover that they were also shot. They didn't die at the same moment that they were shot but they were finished off at a later stage.

DR BORAINE: How did you discover this?

MR MNISI: I was told by Jockey Nkosi.

DR BORAINE: And who was he?

MR MNISI: They used to stay at the same place at Skotipola(?) I don't know whether he's present at the moment, I haven't seen him for quite some time.

DR BORAINE: And do you think there was any connection between your own case and the case of the people who disappeared?

MR MNISI: We knew each other.

DR BORAINE: But in terms of the people who were responsible for attacking them? 

MR MNISI: Yes I can certainly say that.

DR BORAINE: Who do you think that was?

MR MNISI: I do not know them, I would like to know them.

DR BORAINE: I mean when you yourself were shot. When you described those bright lights.

MR MNISI: I do not know who shot me, I never saw who it was.

DR BORAINE: And you didn't hear from any of your friends who were with you?

MR MNISI: I did hear.

DR BORAINE: Can you tell us?

MR MNISI: That told us that Ashmond was present because they said when we were admitted at the hospital he also came there and he was hiding himself at a nearby tree with a gun....he was a taxi driver at the residential area.

DR BORAINE: So he wasn't associated with the police for instance?

MR MNISI: According to my knowledge, no.

DR BORAINE: And can you think of any reason why he should attack you?

MR MNISI: According to my own opinion I think this started when the taxi fares went up because that is what we were trying to address as the youth at the time and there was going to be Situle's memorial service. Maybe it has some connection but I'm not really positive.

DR BORAINE: Could you take us back to Situle and take us back to 1992 when you say Situle was killed. Who was he and how was he killed?

MR MNISI: Situle was a member of the ANC. He was attacked by some assailants at his place and he was also kidnapped.

DR BORAINE: Do you know who those people were?

MR MNISI: I have no knowledge, I would like to know that.

DR BORAINE: Did anybody give any details about what happened to him after he was taken?

MR MNISI: I did hear some rumours but I don't know how true they are.

DR BORAINE: Tell us about the rumours.

MR MNISI: They alleged that Mkwanazi as well as Pina who were present when he was killed.

DR BORAINE: And who were these two people?

MR MNISI: They were policemen here in Piet Retief.

DR BORAINE: And had they given any threats?

DR BORAINE: Not according to my knowledge.

DR BORAINE: And were they around a year later when you yourself were shot?

MR MNISI: I have no clarity on that aspect.

DR BORAINE: You mentioned the incident when you yourself were shot, you mentioned that you were going down the street with a tyre, and trying to light it again. Can I ask, could anybody have made a connection between the tyre and the possibility of necklaceing?

MR MNISI: I wasn't going to injure anyone. We were burning it so that we could see the road ahead, we were not going to necklace anyone.

DR BORAINE: So could you tell us how many people were in your group. You mentioned that there were a number of you?

MR MNISI: We were quite a large number. I can't say how many we were.

DR BORAINE: Could you define large, I mean was it 10, 20, 100?

MR MNISI: We were more than 10, may be the same number as in this house, but there could be too many in this hall, maybe a little bit less.

DR BORAINE: And were they all about the same age and from the same school?

MR MNISI: Yes I would say so but there were some who were older than us. We were not really the same age but basically teenagers.

DR BORAINE: An then Sipho, you yourself were shot. Were any of the others injured or shot at?

MR MNISI: Yes there are some who were shot.

DR BORAINE: Were they injured or were they killed.

MR MNISI: They were injured. Some were killed.

DR BORAINE: Can you tell us how many were killed?

MR MNISI: Two died.

DR BORAINE: And what happened. Was there a funeral for them in the township?

MR MNISI: Yes, one was buried in the location and the other one I think was buried in Driefontein, but I'm not really positive because at the time I was in hospital.

DR BORAINE: I asked this, was there any political connection at the time of the funeral as there had been in the '80's?

MR MNISI: Yes the funeral was a political one. I think there was a political connection.

DR BORAINE: Was that an ANC funeral?

MR MNISI: That is correct.

DR BORAINE: Can you tell us please what has happened now, what is the situation?

MR MNISI: I think the situation has calmed down.

DR BORAINE: I mean when you were shot this was just a year before the election? Are there still the same differences?

MR MNISI: I think there is.

DR BORAINE: And do you still function as a group of activists?

MR MNISI: Yes.

DR BORAINE: What is your programme now?

MR MNISI: I don't hold any particular position and (it's not clear what the witness is saying at this stage).

DR BORAINE: Sipho how do you, looking back at what happened to you four years ago, how do you feel now, yourself?

MR MNISI: I feel very bad about what happened to me. I feel quite terrible that some lives were lost.

DR BORAINE: Just take some more water please. But do you feel that the tensions which gave rise to your being shot and the other people being killed, do you feel that those tensions have gone?

MR MNISI: I think the situation has calmed down. It's not like before.

DR BORAINE: And do you yourself feel safe now?

MR MNISI: I still fear for my life like before.

DR BORAINE: You do? From the same people?

MR MNISI: Yes I feel that the people who attacked me may still come back because I don't know what they attacked me for, and they might probably attack me once more for the same reason or for reasons best known to themselves.

DR BORAINE: Sipho, you're still a very young man. What are your plans now for the future, what do you want to do?

MR MNISI: I would like to further my education so that I can be able to support myself as well as my parents.

DR BORAINE: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Hugh, Russel?

DR ALLY: Sipho, fifteen is quite a young age to be so involved in political issues. I know that it was happening to many of the youth in the country, but could you just give us some idea of how it was at that relatively young age, 15 that you were so actively involved in politics?

&#9;Sipho did you follow what I was saying or would you like to think about it?

MR MNISI: I didn't hear you quite well, your question was not clear and it wasn't complete.

DR ALLY: Okay I'll start again. I wanted to know how it was that in such a young age, 15 years old, you became so actively involved in politics. What caused that, led you become involved?

MR MNISI: I liked the ANC.

DR ALLY: The township that you were living in at the time and in which I suppose you still live in...(intervention)

MR MNISI: Yes I'm still staying at the same place.

DR ALLY: ...throughout the early 1990's was characterised by quite a lot of political struggle and conflict, rent boycotts, consumer boycotts. Can you just tell us from your own experience, what it was like living through this period. What life was like in Thandukukhanya at that stage?

MR MNISI: There was a lot of violence at that time in Thandukukhanya. At times you would get attacked whilst walking down the street or you would hear some gun fire from the opposite direction.

DR ALLY: And how would you respond to what the police were saying about what was happening at that time. For example they say that during this period the youth would go around intimidating people, stoning people, attacking police, burning down places and that they became involved in order to try to restore some law and order or to bring peace into the township? 

MR MNISI: No the police were not just attacked at random. The police themselves would provoke the youth. Thereafter the youth would retaliate later on.

DR ALLY: So there were attacks. You say the youth were provoked. What was the nature of these attacks? How would the police be attacking?

MR MNISI: At times the hostel dwellers would block the taxis and say the people were not supposed to go to work and instead of the police intervening and blocking the hostel dwellers, they would come and fight us as the youth. They were collaborating with the hostel dwellers.

DR ALLY: But during this period a name that comes up very often from the side of the police is a certain Captain Pretorious. Does that name mean anything to you?

MR MNISI: Yes I do know the name, it sounds familiar.

DR ALLY: What do you know about this person. Is there anything more you can tell us?

MR MNISI: I knew that he was the station commander at that time and I had an encounter with him when he assaulted my sibling who was incarcerated by him.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthata.

MR MANTHATA: Sipho, are your parents still alive?

MR MNISI: Yes my mother is still alive.

MR MANTHATA: And then brothers and sisters?

MR MNISI: Yes they are still alive.

MR MANTHATA: And do you know anything about the parents of those youths who died at the attack which you survived?

MR MNISI: No I don't know anything.

MR MANTHATA: You mean you don't know those families or you don't...(intervention)?

MR MNISI: I do not know the families of the deceased.

MR MANTHATA: But did you attend any of the mass funerals of some of these youths that you were with?

MR MNISI: No I was hospitalised at that time.

MR MANTHATA: On coming out of the hospital there was never a follow-up of what happened to some of your comrades and their families perhaps?

MR MNISI: Yes I tried to find out more information but I failed.

MR MANTHATA: Yes, the thrust of my question is based on, there should be almost a common feeling amongst the families that lost their children during that time, and if there isn't that, I would be seeing the youth who survived perhaps going out of their way to find out about those families and how do they think about their children who died.

MR MNISI: Yes we tried to get some more information as the youth, but we came across brick walls.

MR MANTHATA: You came against brick walls as the youth and have you tried to look for some acceptable people in the community who could perhaps help you to reach those families?

MR MNISI: No we never enlisted any help of any prominent person.

MR MANTHATA: Because I think where you have lost the closest of friends, where you were involved in a common action, you would never be happy until you know what you can do for them or what you can do for their families. Hence one would think that where you met brick walls, you should go out of your way to find out who can be of help to you to reach these families.

MR MNISI: We tried but we couldn't get any information.

MR MANTHATA: Are you still being together as youth, you know, with a leadership and with a common purpose of some kind amongst yourselves?

MR MNISI: No not at this juncture.

MR MANTHATA: But what's the relationship so far in your township between the elderly people and the youth that you still belong to, who still push a certain line of action. Is there any understanding between the elderly people and the youth of your group?

MR MNISI: Yes there is.

MR MANTHATA: In short you are saying you can console the families that have lost their children andy you can even put together the entire community for a peaceful living amongst yourselves?

MR MNISI: Yes.

MR MANTHATA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Sipho, I just want to ask one question myself before I sum up. Can you tell us and/or show us the extent of the damage that took place because you were shot as I understand it, in the jaw. You've already described in your statement how much difficulty you have eating. Can you just tell us a little bit about that?

MR MNISI: When I got injured the bullets went through one side of my jaw, out through the other side of my jaw and I lost some teeth, and when there's thunder and when it's cold, I should keep myself indoors and warm because when there's lightning and thunder I can feel it through my jaws. 

CHAIRPERSON: Can you also tell us what help you have been able to, besides the treatment that you received at the time of the shooting. What other help have you been able to receive in terms of helping you with the problems that you have now?

MR MNISI: Yes I used to go to the hospital for treatment but I am no longer going there now.

CHAIRPERSON: Sipho, my last question is, you presumably were a student at the time when the shooting took place. How did the shooting affect your schooling at the time and subsequently?

MR MNISI: I was disturbed. I had to cut my studies. When I passed that particular standard I couldn't continue thereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, is there anything you want to say before I close?

MR MNISI: Yes I do want to say something.

MR MANTHATA: Go ahead.

MR MNISI: I would like this Commission to help me find the people who injured me and the reason as to why they did it.

MR MNISI: Sipho thank you very much. We hear what you're saying and we feel your pain. People in submission that the Human Rights Committee of South Africa is to make to the Truth Commission next week. It's a very lengthy submission but one of the points that comes out very clearly is that between 1960 and 1990, 15 000 people lost their lives in South Africa in the political conflict. But between 1990 and 1994, the same number, if not more people were killed. In many hearings and in different places that we've travelled in the last 15 months we've heard many stories particularly from that 1993-'94 period where people were either shot by cars driving past or people taking shots at them from hidden places, and I have an article here in front of me from the time that you were shot, from the City Press. It talks about your town as a town of living hell. And in fact there's a photograph of a younger you, you were still very young as you say. But people lived in fear at that time and the article intimates that political activists, and you've talked about Mr Shleza as being killed at that time, but clearly there seems to have been a move at that time to kill young political activists and we marvel at you coming here today and being able to tell your story about yourself and about your friends.

&#9;I'm sure people in the community recognise today how far we have got actually from 1990 and '93 to 1997, where yes, clearly we still have problems but at least we live in peace. Thank you very much for coming. 

 

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