


FOURTH SESSION / 




FOURTH SITTING		:	NORMAL	:	13, 14 AND 15 MAY 1997
								







	VOLUME 4 / 
	1997







SPINE:	VOLUME 4 1997

















	DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - SEVENTH SITTING DAY
	TUESDAY, 13 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 9:00 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

I have no announcements to make save to save to say that our Speaker is recovering rapidly.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

Mr Minister?

REV C J MTETWA:  (Minister of Public Works):  No announcements, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Minister Mtetwa.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

Mr Singh.

MR N SINGH:  (Minister of Agriculture):  Mr Speaker, I have pleasure on behalf of the Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs, who has just walked in, to table the annual report of the Department of Traditional and Environmental Affairs for 1996.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Singh.  Thank you that ~Inkosi~ has also just walked in.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	That this hon House, having recognised the multi-cultural nature of our Province's population, calls upon the hon Minister in charge of Traditional Affairs to consider tabling draft legislation for consideration by this House which will recognise, protect and promote the traditions and the customs of all the sections of our Province's communities.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Any further notices of Bills or motions?  There being no further notices of Bills or motions we then go on.

8.	ORDERS OF DAY

8.1	VOTE 11:  TRADITIONAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, can I make an appeal with your permission, that the Annual Report of the Department of Traditional Affairs that is supposed to have been tabled, if we can get copies of that while the debate is in progress?  It will help us to make our contribution.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, thank you for that.  Be assured that it is being distributed as we speak.  Thank you.  I therefore now accordingly transform the House into the Committee of Supply and accordingly request the Deputy Chair of Committees to take over the seat.  The House is transformed.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE.  
MR T S MOHLOMI DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON TAKES THE CHAIR

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

VOTE 11:  DEPARTMENT OF TRADITIONAL AND ENVIRONMENTAL AFFAIRS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Committee of Supply resumes and I have pleasure in calling upon the hon Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs, the hon Minister ~Inkosi~ Ngubane to address the House.

~Inkosi~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs):   Thank you, Mr Chairman and the hon House.  In rising to present my 1997/1998 budget I, like my fellow Provincial Ministers, have been faced with a nearly 5% cut in real terms in the funding allocated to my vote.  This means that many important issues will not be addressed or will not be properly addressed.  Nevertheless, our Department will do its best to fulfil the task which has been laid upon us by the Constitution and other laws of the land.  In my introductory remarks I wish to address the general policy approach on my Department in relation to traditional affairs.

I have become increasingly aware that there is a move afoot to diminish the role of traditional leaders.  This is manifested even in the new Constitution of the Republic which denies the House of Traditional Leaders and the National Council of Traditional Leaders the roles that were envisaged for them, and provided for, in the interim Constitution of 1993.

The fact that the Government of this Province provides for a Department largely devoted to Traditional Affairs is indicative of the fact that we do not accept any reduction in the role of Traditional Leaders.

There has been much criticism about the building of the House or Hall of meeting for the House of Traditional Affairs.  I have become increasingly aware that there is a move.

It should be explained that the envisaged structure is not simply for meetings of the House of Traditional Leaders.  This should have been apparent from the specificationswhich require the hall to seat more than 600 people.  It is part of the Department's plan to assist ~Amakhosi~ in equipping themselves for their leadership role in changing times.  The venue would indeed have been used for ordinary sittings and special sittings for the House of Traditional Leaders and to provide for their supporting staff.  The House would, however, also be used for great gatherings of ~Amakhosi~ and their supporting ezindunas and other councillors both for the purposes of discussing important issues and for information sessions.

As an example, what an advantage it would have been if we had such a venue to gather together the traditional leadership and to explain to them the purpose and requirements of the municipal elections that were held in the Province.

As to the history leading up to the request to build the House, it was my Department which asked for this construction after it was made clear by this hon House of yours, Mr Chairman, that it was not prepared to share the parliamentary building in ~Ulundi~ with the House of Traditional Leaders.  Possibly some sort of compromise could have been reached, but when it was clear that we were not allowed to make use of the meeting place of the so-called democratic Legislature, it was necessary for us to make alternative arrangements.  Similarly, my Department and other departments are extremely hard pressed for accommodation in ~Ulundi~.  The construction of the meeting place for ~Amakhosi~ with supporting office accommodation would have gone some way to alleviating this shortage.

More then two million of the citizens of this Province live in terms of traditional structures.  Many, many of them have exercised their vote in such a way as to support my party which is committed to the preservation of traditional structures.  If democracy is really to prevail, their democratic right to continue to function and live in terms of their traditional styles should be respected.  I fear that in many instances there is a total lack of understanding of the role that ~Amakhosi~ and their councillors play in the preservation of stable societies in the rural areas.  Were this to be taken away, you may rest assured, there would be chaos.  Any efforts to do so would be strongly resisted by the people themselves.

Although I have said that there is a lack of understanding of the importance of traditional leaders, I do not believe that we of the Zulu nation who wish to respect and preserve our traditional practices stand alone.  I am sure there are many white, coloured and Indian people in this Province who through their religions, or their membership of ancient organisations or even the traditional regiments of the Defence Force, understand the value of traditions and the stability inherent in the maintenance of tradition.

I have discussed the question of traditional leadership generally and have made it quite plain that we will not compromise on the maintenance of that system.  But that does not mean that we do not believe that development must take place.  We believe that development is compatible with the traditional structures and that indeed they provide a framework which can be used to facilitate social and economic development.  We believe that the system of communal land tenure is one which actually can positively act against poverty.  The division of communal land into many tiny plots will eventually lead to land starvation and many farmers who cannot produce a living.  I think the same thing was emphasised by the previous Minister, especially the Minister of Agriculture when dealing with the Agriculture Portfolio.  I believe that such a social experiment was attempted in Portugal, with the support of greater technology and resources that we currently have at our disposal, and yet it failed.

So it is the context of maintenance of the traditional structures that I turn specifically to in my vote.  I will also address the questions of environment and nature conservation which also fall within my vote.

PROGRAMME 1:  ADMINISTRATION  -  R4 044 000

Under programme 1 provision is made for the salaries and other expenditure of my Ministry and my Head Office Administrative Support Services.  Because the Department has not yet got its full authorised establishment it has not had a history of expenditure which could be used upon which to base future trends.  We have been conservative in the extreme in providing for funds under Programme 1 which includes covering the salaries of Departmental Secretary, his Chief Directors and Directors.  Those posts were not all filled last year but during the course of this year there is every hope that they will be filled, indeed with the co-operation of the Provincial Service Commission, probably in the near future.  I have to place on record there is barely sufficient funding to cover management salaries let alone that of support services staff.  Some support posts have now been created for the financial and personnel functions and these posts will be filled in the near future.  It remains to be seen whether there are adequate funds, in the light of the reduction to meet the personnel expenditure under this programme.  Programme 1 of course in its nature relates mainly to salaries and similar expenditure.  It is a purely management programme.

PROGRAMME 2:  TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS  -  R25 653 000

When we turn to programme 2 which deals with traditional affairs, the severity of the reduction imposed upon the provinces and therefore to the various votes of our administration, takes on greater significance.  I am being disturbed here, Mr Chairman.

Hon members will see that the figure for transfer to tribal authorities, talking in round figures, has been reduced from 9 million to 7 million.  There are more than 300 tribal authorities and it will be appreciated that this relatively small amount enables us only to maintain the basic tribal structures such as court houses and the payment of tribal secretaries.  This must be contrasted with the need for leadership training and improved tribal administrative capacity.

LAND MATTERS

Although land matters are a Central Government competence in terms of the Constitution, they so intimately concern development and the lifestyle of those persons living in the rural areas under traditional customs, my Department, must remain intimately involved in land matters.

The House is aware that we have interacted with the Department of Land Affairs, and Minister Hanekom personally, in relation to the amendment of the Ingonyama Trust Act, 1994.  I have to report to the House that co-operation is ongoing and that the Head of my Department and the Director General of Land Affairs are currently co-operating in the drawing up of the necessary regulations for Minister Hanekom's consideration.  Associated with that process will be discussion between Provincial, the Central Government and others as to the constitution of the Board of Trustees.  His Majesty the King remains chairperson with the right to nominate somebody to take his place but he remains the titular head of the trust.  We believe that this Act will now fulfil its original intention, and we hope, will lead to title deed ownership of land by tribal authorities for the benefit of their communities.  We are not adverse to discussing mechanisms which will assure individuals of certain rights in that context.  We will urge the Central Government to give consideration to these matters.  I may say that when the Amendment Bill was accepted by the National Council of Provinces, other provinces indicated the possible advantage of having similar legislation in their areas.  I record my appreciation of the co-operation that the hon members on the other side gave in the process of negotiation.

Land tenure is so kernel to the whole system of tribal and traditional leadership that my Department would have to be continually alert to ensure that measures introduced by the Central Government do not wittingly or unwittingly cause conflict in the traditional areas.

May I illustrate this by saying that in one area, with the best of intentions, the Central Department of Land Affairs has assisted in the creation of a trust for development purposes, but in doing so has overlapped the areas of two tribes and two ~Amakhosi~.  There has already been conflict which could have been avoided had my Department been consulted and involved from the beginning.  We will endeavour to prevail upon the Central Department to use our good offices in interacting with traditional leadership.

RURAL DEVELOPMENT

Also in this programme is the amount of about 3,5 million for rural development.  I have the following comments to make on rural development in the light of this funding, but before I make them, I must hasten to say that I believe that the Premier has a vision of co-ordinated service rendering in rural areas for which some of the money in his vote may be made available if the appropriate business plans can be submitted.  My further remarks with regard to rural development must be understood in that context.

The question of how to accelerate rural development in traditional authority areas remains a very problematic one.  This Department's allocation to rural development has in effect, been diminishing over the past few years with very serious consequences for development in traditional authority areas.

It is true that there are many service providers including other departments, development agencies, regional councils rendering services in traditional authority.  Nevertheless, the provision of services nowhere near meets current needs.

In response to this growing concern the Cabinet approved the appointment of consultants to draw up a White Paper on integrated rural development.  In support of this initiative the Directorate: Socio-Economic Development has embarked on two in-depth projects.  The one is an in-depth evaluation of the current development facilitation approach of the Directorate.  The consultants have been requested to make very specific recommendations on how best to facilitate development in traditional authority areas on a sustainable, affordable basis.

A second initiative underway is to consult people living in traditional authority areas about how traditional family and community life should serve as a foundation for future rural development.  In this way it is hoped that people living in traditional authority areas have the opportunity of spelling out what they view as critical issues in the development of their areas.

Both of these initiatives will feed into the integrated rural development policy.  It is hoped that the years of uncertainty surrounding the role of the Directorate and the exact purpose and content of development facilitation will be finally clarified by the integrated rural development policy.

Hon members will therefore see that it is going to be very difficult for my Department to make a meaningful contribution to the physical and social upliftment of the rural people dwelling in traditional areas.  We will, however, also continue to look to our fellow departments such as Local Government and Housing, Health, Education, Welfare and others to play their part in improving the lot of rural dwellers.

PROGRAMME 3:  ENVIRONMENT  -  R3 552 000

Turning to programme 3, Environment, we once again have a very small amount allocated to this programme.  I am grateful for the support that the relative Portfolio Committee has given to my Department in relation to the provision of funds.  Nevertheless, we have had to act responsibly and not ask for funds which we will not be able to use.

The establishment under the level of Director has still to be approved.  As has been indicated in the annual report of the Department we have scaled down the projected establishment from 162 to about 46 posts.  This is notwithstanding the fact that this is a new function.  We have respected the need to limit the size of the public service.  We hope that within weeks the Provincial Service Commission will provide a recommendation for the creation of these posts and their disposition between head office and two or three regions.  This will enable us to recruit enthusiastic staff members committed to preservation of the environment.

Hon members must not think that nothing has been achieved.  Some of what has been happening is reflected in the annual report and I will not dwell upon that.  I must, however, mention that we are in the process of launching a state of environmental study in this Province by using consultants.  There is also a public consultative process in hand with regard to the formulation of a provincial waste management policy.

Once again, I have to thank the Portfolio Committee for its enthusiastic support and also those environmental organisations which to an increasing degree are interacting with the tiny environmental component of my Department.

It is with regret that I report that although the post of Chief Director for environmental conservation was filled last year, the incumbent, Mr N A Steele has been seriously ill and will possibly be retiring on medical grounds in a month or two.  I pay tribute to his dedication to nature conservation and the preservation of the environment and the willingness and enthusiasm which he displayed before his illness overtook him.

A special effort has been made by Mrs S Allan in the pollution control field and indeed in the whole process of establishing the environmental function.  I also thank her very much.

The vision that informs the Environmental Education Directorate is based on the Government's environmental policy which seeks to unite the people of South Africa in working towards a cleaner, healthier society where the people have sufficient food, clean water, decent homes and green spaces in their neighbourhoods.  Achieving this requires a paradigm shift to environmentally sustainable development that addresses:

*	People's quality of life and the living environment that they experience on a day to day basis.
*	More efficient use of energy and natural resources.
*	Greater public participation in environmental governance based on increased awareness and understanding on environmental issues.

Environmental education has an important role to play to ensure that the above is achieved through providing the people of KwaZulu-Natal with relevant information so that everyone has an access to information to enable them to:

*	Protect the environment.
*	Participate in sustainable environmental management.
*	Comply with environmental policy, legislation and regulation.

The environmental education has a responsibility to ensure that all information needed by the public to perform these functions is available, comprehensive, clear, affordable and up to date.  It is the responsibility of environmental education to empower the people of KwaZulu-Natal to improve their quality of life and living environments through enhancing their awareness and understanding of environmental consideration and their capacity to influence environmental decisions.

The environmental education component will increasingly aim to reach out and also receive contributions from the grass-root levels.  It will encourage people to learn to solve problems rather than complain about them.  It shall deliver tools to the people to enable them to change their conditions for the better.

Environmental education will endeavour to provide the people of KwaZulu-Natal with skills, increase knowledge, change attitudes, values and feelings, create commitments and citizenships so that the above can be achieved.

In order to make a meaningful contribution, the environmental education considers the socio-cultural reality of the people of KwaZulu-Natal as the starting point.

The current ongoing programmes, (viz SABC Environmental Talk Show) conducted by this Directorate will continue to be operated as they are capable of enlightening millions of listeners who cannot be physically reached by the environmental officers.  Mr M T Mchunu has pioneered this work for which I thank him.

PROGRAMME 4:  NATURE CONSERVATION  -  R155 277 000

Turning to programme 4, nature conservation, I regret that it has been a hardy annual to say that the amalgamation process is receiving attention but has not yet taken place.  The irritation of the relevant Portfolio Committee reflects the frustration suffered by myself, the Departmental Secretary, leadership in nature conservation and, indeed, the field staff themselves.

I want to assure hon members that in fact co-operative action in the field is taking place at an increasing tempo.  A Bill to bring about the amalgamation is now in final form and in terms of the approved procedures will be submitted to Cabinet in three official languages for final approval for transmission to Parliament for consideration, no later than the end of this month.

I know that I previously referred to the fact that the amalgamation of a public service department and a parastatal organisation is not any easy one.  It has involved really delicate negotiations with the trade unions.  I make so bold as to say that if we had not persuaded the public servants to walk this path with us they could use their right, under the Public Service Act and under certain provisions of the interim Constitution which were preserved until 30 April 1999 to insist on the retention of the status quo with regard to public service posts.  On the other hand, staff of the Natal Parks Board in many instances prefer the idea of retaining employment in the parastatal organisation.  We therefore had to find something approaching a middle path.  This we have done by preparing a Bill which aims for a parastatal organisation but one in which the Minister retains many of the same powers that he exercises over the public servants in his Department.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

~Inkosi~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs):  Oh I am sorry, sir.  Traditional people are not used to these things, sir.  [LAUGHTER]

Assurances are also built in that the conditions of service of the staff of a nature conservation service should not be less favourable than those enjoyed by equivalent public servants.  If these compromises could not have been reached we might have had to go on with the dual system or with a single authority using two types of staff, which would not have been satisfactory.  I also wish to remind this Legislature that legislation affecting public servants is not within provincial competence.  Concurrence of the public servants was imperative, and I am still engaged on tours to different parts of the Province, as my time permits, to reassure the staff that the proposed legislation will ensure that their employment under the Provincial Government and as a parastatal will be no less secure or nor less advantageous than would be the case than were they employed on the public service establishment.

There is an ever growing recognition of the value of wildlife resources as an enormous asset to South Africa and to KwaZulu-Natal particularly.

The phenomenal success of last year's KwaZulu-Natal game auction secured it the prestige of being the most successful event of its kind ever held, and we look forward to a comparable success with this year's wildlife auction in Mtubatuba next month.

On the bio-diversity front, the fact that we have enjoyed good rains bodes extremely well for the wildlife estate of KwaZulu-Natal, which is in excellent condition.  As a result, it is necessary for user agencies to remove some 9 000 animals from our terrestrial protected areas during this year.

On the marine side, we are looking forward to our new fisheries policy being put in place.  This will make for more equitable and responsible use of our fisheries resources.  Our coastal facilities are enjoying greater and greater visitation from previously disadvantaged communities, tens of thousands of whom visited St Lucia, Umlalazi and Sodwana this year.

On the tourism front, continuing trends enable us to look forward to increasing tourism revenues.  The greater focus being placed on wildlife from foreign tourism particularly bodes well for the future, and it has now become possible to expand visitor facilities in our parks.  This will mean the creation of more jobs while bringing more lustre to our wildlife estates.

Here I must introduce a cautionary note.  Protected areas have their limits for development and in this regard it is pleasing to note the growth in number of private sector and community game reserves.  These are of great value, both in themselves and in reducing the impact on formally protected areas.  They substantially increase the spectrum of conservation and its benefits to all concerned.

With the imminent settlement of some land claims, the Natal Parks Board, with the help of private sector companies, has been pursuing the possibility of establishing a development vehicle for St Lucia.  This study has now entered its second phase.  If the project is successful, the participation of local communities in the company, using their land as equity, is a distinct possibility.

Something dear to my heart is the formalisation of greater participation of local people through the establishment of local conservation boards.  This exciting venture will make for greater commitment to and understanding of wildlife conservation and its social and economic benefits.  It will also have the added value of monitoring and auditing projects derived from the very exciting community trust which has been established by the Natal Parks Board.  This is awaiting approval by the Treasury and the Cabinet before being implemented.

The trust, if approved, will be financed by a structured levy for visitors to our protected areas.  This will have a modest impact on visitors but will hold significant benefits for the communities living adjacent to protected areas.

In my view the next year will see the total involvement of all our people in the benefits derived from our wildlife estate, one of KwaZulu-Natal's greatest assets.

On the down-side, it must be stated that I am very disappointed that our nature conservation bodies experienced the budget cuts they did.  It will once again handicap the rapid development of a better service by slowing it down.  However, I am confident the excellent staff that people our new Nature Conservation Services will ensure that this handicap is surmounted and we will continue to provide our Province of KwaZulu-Natal with a wildlife heritage second to none.

One of the pleasures that I have experienced over the past three years that I have been Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs has been the dramatic acceleration of the integration of nature conservation and our traditional communities.  Although there are still many problems to resolve, I am satisfied that our people are now participating and sharing in the benefits that can be derived from nature conservation and more are on their way.

In KwaZulu-Natal there are now dozens of small business enterprises run by community members inside our protected areas.  During 1996 these businesses earned R1,75 million.  What is more, new handicraft centres and services are built which will create more jobs and put more money directly into the hands of our people.  Many of the materials used in the markets come out of the protected areas and nceme, ikwane, thatch grass and other natural resources collected last year by neighbours was valued at R2,65 million.

This initiative of conservation agencies such as many parastatal organisations, the Natal Parks Board, has seen R20 million donated to sustainable community projects near parks and there are now many schools, water projects, chicken farms and even bed and breakfast schemes in communal land as a result.

The most dramatic community development which is nearing the final planning stage is the Gateway Camp in Dukuduku near St Lucia.  The Natal Parks Board is assisting the people to achieve this wonderful goal which will earn millions of Rands for the people.

Our new legislation soon to be published will, for the first time in the world, not even in KwaZulu-Natal, not even in South Africa, guarantee the participation of traditional communities in the management of parks through the establishment of local conservation boards.  This is a wonderful step forward for us.

In addition, these boards will monitor and be accountable for a new tourism levy that we will be implementing to put funds into a community trust.  This trust will raise millions of Rands to help the development of our people.

Finally, it is not just the sharing of hard cash that is new, but we have established our first Traditional Healers Liaison Committee chaired by Mr Lucas Mchunu, one of my appointments to the Natal Parks Board.  It is now realised that the traditional medicine market in South Africa is worth R1,2 billion per year.  The sale of indigenous plants by traditional healers or iziNyangas, in KwaZulu-Natal alone, is worth R61 million per year.  This new liaison committee will see our healers and the conservation staff building a nursery system that will ensure that these medicines will remain of value and service to our people.  The seeds and cuttings of valuable medicinal plants will come from our protected areas.

You can see therefore, that although there has been a perceived lack of empathy from conservation authorities in the past, at last the full value of their work is going to be of real benefit to us all.

PROGRAMME 5:  AUXILIARY AND ASSOCIATED SERVICES - R1 898 000

Under this programme provision is made for the purchase of Government and subsidised vehicles.  We have reduced expenditure to an absolute minimum so that funds could be devoted to the operational programmes.

Provision is also made for a grant of R200 000 for the Oceanographic Research Institute.  I realise that this is a small amount and at the urging of the Portfolio Committee we were grateful that Treasury was able to increase this amount to R400 000 last year.

In the face of widespread cuts we have not been able to increase the amount this year.  Indeed we are not sure whether we are constitutionally competent to fund an institute associated with marine research in view of the provisions of Part A of Schedule 4 of the new Constitution.  We have nevertheless kept the amount in the estimates in the hopes that it will be in order for us to continue to assist ORI.  Other minor transfers are provided for.

Mr Chairman, the hon House, it is now my privilege to table vote 11 for the consideration of this hon House.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane.  I now wish to call upon the hon Chairman of the Portfolio Committee, the hon ~Inkosi~ Khawula to address the House for 15 minutes.  

~Inkosi~ C KHAWULA: 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Chairman, for affording me this opportunity.  First of all, I must thank the hon ~Inkosi~ Ngubane for giving us this news, some of which is bad, and some of which is good.  Thank you, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane.

I must also thank ~Inkosi~ Ngubane for looking after our affairs as ~Amakhosi~. ~ ~Inkosi~~ Ngubane is in charge of a very difficult department, the Department of ~Amakhosi~.  I will now let that matter rest.

Today we are talking about the issue of ~Amakhosi~.  We are today talking about the Land of KwaZulu which is governed by ~Amakhosi~.  The Land of KwaZulu is not a land which has existed only in the present, the Land of KwaZulu was a land which existed before we existed, before any of us in this House existed, before our parents who gave birth to us existed, the Land of KwaZulu existed.

The Land of KwaZulu already had ~Amakhosi~, as far back as the time of King Shaka, ~Amakhosi~ existed.  At the time of the King who was the father of King Shaka, Senzangakhona, ~Amakhosi~ already existed.  The Land of KwaZulu has had many ~Amakhosi~.  I am speaking about ~Amakhosi~ of KwaZulu.  That was before Governments, before even the Governments that existed previously, before the white Government existed.

This was before their existence but the Land of KwaZulu already existed, it was a Land of ~Amakhosi~.  When the whites arrived they found the Land of KwaZulu already in existence, already with ~Amakhosi~ in existence.  ~Amakhosi~ were governed by King Shaka.  King Shaka was governing.  King Dingane governed, King Mpande governed, King Cetshwayo governed, King Solomon governed, King Inyangayezizwe governed, even this present King governs.

Now I want to express my thanks and appreciation to the King, because we ~Amakhosi~, because of the intellect and foresight of ~Inkosi~ Buthelezi, have this Government of ours, of KwaZulu.  We took our land and put it under the arm of the King so that the King could protect it on our behalf, and look after it.

The land is not our land.  The land belongs to the people that we govern.  We work together with them because you cannot have land if you do not have an ~Inkosi~.  You have land which you control because you have people that you govern.  Being an ~Inkosi~ cannot grow out of nothing, you cannot be an ~Inkosi~ without people to govern.  So when one talks about title deeds, we do not intend that if we get a title deed that title deed should refer to me Calalakubo.

There are people of Hlonga, the title deed should be registered in their names, not mine.  I want to express my great thanks and appreciation to the King, and also to Mr Hanekom.  I want to congratulate them, because they protect the land.  We are ~Amakhosi~ because of the land.  If there is no longer any land the Institution of Ubukosi would be finished.

Now here we have the Prime Minister of the Land of KwaZulu, the Prince of KwaPhindangene.  No, not Mbovu, the Prince of KwaPhindangene.  I am talking about the land.  I am not talking about politics.  I am not talking about KwaZulu-Natal.

We have a Prime Minister, ~Inkosi~ Buthelezi.  We were very shocked when we heard somebody speaking at the Royal House, we heard this person speaking.  Who was this person?  He was Sifiso Zulu.  Oh, Sifiso Zulu.  Who got him into the Royal House, because the one who speaks on behalf of the King is the Prince of KwaPhindangene?  When was Sifiso placed in that position?  Who placed him in the Royal House?

We as ~Amakhosi~ were never informed, we were never told, because we know the Prince of ~KwaPhindangene~ who will be the Prime Minister until the world comes to an end.  We would have expected to be called and told if he was no longer the Prime Minister.  We would have to be told that he was no longer the Prime Minister.  We would then have to reply, we as ~Amakhosi~, and we would have to be told the reason or reasons why he was being removed from his position.

The Land of KwaZulu, as you see it, is not really in proper order, because a person went from here at Inkandla, the person used to work at Gamalakhe and his name was Sifiso Zulu.  In fact he was working in this direction closer to you people and his name was Sifiso Zulu.  I have never heard of him being referred to as a Prince.

We were also assisted by ~Inkosi~ Ntuli from the banks of the Tugela at a meeting of ~Amakhosi~.  That ~Inkosi~ said, "I know Sifiso Zulu.  I also know his father.  They had a home in my area on the banks of the Tugela.  His father's surname was Zulu, but he was not referred to as a Prince, and Sifiso Zulu was a boy who had the surname Zulu, but they were not referred to as Prince".

Sifiso Zulu was now being referred to as a Prince.  When Sifiso Zulu was being referred to as a Prince we heard the senior Prince Mcwayizeni supporting him.  We heard him mention that the Prince of KwaPhindangene was no longer wanted at the Royal House.  The Prince of KwaPhindangene no longer wanted at the Royal House!  Where does this person come from?  Here is a person stirring up the Land of KwaZulu and causing it to become murky.

He caused the Land of KwaZulu to become murky.  Today the Land of KwaZulu is not in proper order because in order for the Land of KwaZulu to regain its proper order will only happen once the matter pertaining to the Prince as the Prime Minister of KwaZulu has been rectified.  The land is not in proper order even today.  It was made murky by Sifiso and the senior Prince.

We were very happy when the Government went out of the hands of the whites and we were going to govern the land ourselves, because we realised that this was indeed the time when our grievances too would be rectified.  We were worried when we heard at the Royal Place known as Kwakhangelamankengani, when Father President Mandela said to us, "Hey this young man Sifiso works very well".

We were puzzled.  What does he do very well, this person Sifiso who had come to make the Land of KwaZulu murky?  Where is he now?  We have now been told that he is talking about the King, and making fun of the King, this very same Sifiso.  He is now saying he is leaving the Royal Palace.  He says the King no longer tells him things.  As he is now leaving, who did he report to at the time when he entered there?  He must leave of his own accord.

You are no longer telling Sifiso things.  He is leaving the Royal Palace.  There are certain things that Sifiso needs to confess to at the Royal Palace.  Those things will not be rectified if he leaves without rectifying them, because we got a fright when he drew a firearm on the Prince of KwaPhindangene.  He has not rectified this matter of the firearm.   T/E

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, I rise on a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can I hear the point of order from Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I believe that the highest respect should be afforded to a traditional leader, to whichever party he belongs.  I think the hon members of the ANC are not adhering to this golden long established custom and tradition of this Province.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I am sure the hon members have heard what you said and are going to behave themselves responsibly.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON: [You may continue, sir].

~Inkosi~ C KHAWULA: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, I am now going to commence with my last topic.  I have been complaining about this for some time, and I am not alone in this.

Father President Mandela promised us that he would pay us money.  We agreed about the money.  We said the money should be paid out here to Father Mdlalose.  It has not yet arrived.  Now Father Ngubane has taken over.  We are still waiting for that money.  We are waiting for that money to be paid out here and that it should be passed on to us.

Father promised us money.  Father promised us motor vehicles.  [LAUGHTER]  Father promised us guards and drivers, telephones, and electricity.  We do not now have electricity, we use lamps for lighting.  We are waiting for Father Mandela to honour his promise.

Whilst we are waiting for Father Mandela, we have heard that he is thinking of leaving.  I am requesting Father not to leave without honouring his promise.   T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [The hon member has only one minute left.  You have one minute left, sir].

~Inkosi~ C KHAWULA:  

TRANSLATION:  So that, Father, we will remember you, that it was during your presidency that you gave dignity to ~Amakhosi~.  We will respect you.  If Father leaves without doing this, what are we going to remember you by?

With those words, I support Father ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, the ~Inkosi~ of the Ngubanes.  Go forward, Father, you are the ~Inkosi~ of the Zashuka Tribe.  You were born an ~Inkosi~.  From time immemorial you were an ~Inkosi~ and you are still an ~Inkosi~ from now until the earth passes away.  [LAUGHTER]  Thank you, Mr Chairman.   T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: Our next speaker will be the hon Advocate Madondo who will address the House for nine minutes.

ADV M I MADONDO:

TRANSLATION:   Thank you, Chairman, and the hon members.  Following on from His Excellency Gabhisa, it used to be said that the institution of Ubukosi does not die, but people die.  I was surprised to hear that there was a certain person who could be the Prime Minister until the end of the world.  He will not be here at that time.

Secondly, he spoke about salaries and motor vehicles.  That is good, but their Excellencies refused that.  T/E

LAND TENURE BILL

Mr Chairman, I will concentrate mostly on the Land Tenure Bill which aims at stamping out all the inequalities in the access to land.  There are challenges facing the land reform.

The first challenge is to create viable ways in which the millions of people who live in vulnerable circumstances on other people's land, can obtain permanent and secure land rights of their own.

The traditional set up or the traditional law is a matter for great concern, because it does not recognise the private ownership of land as well as the transfer of ownership of  immovable property.  A person is only allotted a family site arable land and the pasture land.  He only enjoys a right of possession, occupation or the use of land.  He cannot do anything without the permission of the ~Inkosi~.

The land is registered in the name of the ~Inkosi~ or the tribal authority.  In so far as the third party is concerned an ~Inkosi~ is deemed to be the owner of the land.  When the individual leaves the land, the land reverts to the ~Inkosi~ or the tribal authority.

There are these problems because there is no private ownership and as a result no acquisition of a title deed.  The people who are land holders in tribal areas, do not qualify for loans from the financial institutions.  They also do not qualify for subsidies because they are not able to obtain registered title to their homes.

There is also a notion that was raised by ~Inkosi~ Khawula, the hon member, about the acquisition of a collective title deed, and he argued that that could also result in the kind of ownership as in the European sense.  In my view, that kind of argument is untenable and has got no substance.  If it was tenable in substance there would be no reason for amendments to the Ingonyama Trust Act.  That can also be open to various malpractices and serious abuse of power by the traditional authorities, more particularly in the case concerning people who are not very favoured by an ~Inkosi~ and his tribal councillors.

This kind of ownership is an impediment at times and counter-productive to development, because you will find that the community wish to have their land developed and the ~Inkosi~ wanting to demonstrate his power over the land, unreasonably refuses to grant the permission.  The fate of the entire community is thereby unjustifiably placed in the hands of one person.

A notable example of that is the question of the transport forum at Msinga.  The people at Msinga are going to lose out on this R100 million set aside for the community access roads because ~Amakhosi~ do not see the reasoning for the formation of the transport forum.  That is a real problem.

The Government has a duty to introduce measures which will bring stability and security to the rural areas.  The Minister of Traditional Affairs must also be seen to be removing a number of barriers that prevent the rural African people, who make up the majority of the poor, to acquire land ownership by increasing their economic productivity.  If a person acquires the ownership of land that does not mean that he will stop paying allegiance to the ~Inkosi~.

THE INGONYAMA TRUST ACT

The Ingonyama Trust Act.  The aim and objective of the defunct KwaZulu Government in creating or in enacting this piece of legislation was to ensure that the land owned and occupied by the tribes would vest in them, and not become National Government land when the Constitution came into effect.

The intention was to create a mechanism to preserve tribal interest in land within the framework of traditional authority structures.  The Act transferred almost three million hectares of land into the ownership of the trust.  The said legislation turned into being an impediment to housing, industrial and commercial development, as no land may be alienated or leased without the permission of the Ingonyama.  The Ingonyama did not have the administrative facilities to deal with the large number of requests which would be received.

However, I applaud the ANC and the IFP for the manner in which they handled the amendment to this piece of legislation and the consequence thereof.  They managed to bring about unanimously accepted and agreed amendments to the Act.  I also wish to extend my gratitude to both His Majesty the King and the Minister of Land Affairs, Derek Hanekom, for their co-operation and positive response to the amendments.

My last topic I will deal with the training of the traditional leaders.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

TRAINING OF TRADITIONAL LEADERS

ADV M I MADONDO:  In order to ensure the optimum performance of the administrative and traditional functions by ~Amakhosi~ and a good personal and working relationship, ~Amakhosi~ must receive some form of orientation training, more especially the newly appointed ones.  ~Amakhosi~ must be workshopped to know and understand that an ~Inkosi~ is an ~Inkosi~ because of the people under its jurisdiction, not only those who are closely associated with him or her.

Further, that any member of the tribe is important, his or her skill, opinion, knowledge and contribution are necessary to further the objectives and the cause of the tribe concerned, irrespective of his political affiliation or persuasion.  Democratic tendencies be encouraged rather than the despotic ones.  All this, in my view, will contribute largely to the development, peace and stability of his or her area.

It is imperative that ~Amakhosi~ be provided with the necessary support services including transport and to train staff in the performance of their duties.  An ~Inkosi~ be given the remuneration commensurate with his or her social status.

I further urge the Minister, to consider the position of an Izinduna in terms of wages once the question of the remuneration of ~Amakhosi~ has been sufficiently addressed, regard being had to the fact that the custom that allows an Induna to claim 16 head of cattle as lobola for his daughter has been abrogated by disuse, and that we are now in a commercial world.  There is nobody who can work for mahala.  So the Izinduna also should be considered. 

I support the budget and I also support the traditional style of living but it must somehow be improved so that it will be in line with the modern development.  We are in a changing society.  The Ministry itself should be seen to realise that we are in a changing of society.  As we are speaking here we are not speaking because we are against the institution of ~Amakhosi~ but we want to ratify all those problems and shortfalls inherent to the traditional set up.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

ADV M I MADONDO:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Redinger to address the House for ten minutes.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I cannot help but agree with most of what the hon Advocate Madondo has just been putting across to the House.

In contrast with his fellow colleagues, when they were laughing and sneering at ~Inkosi~ Khawula while he was speaking, Advocate Madondo was supporting basically what ~Inkosi~ Khawula was talking about, while the ANC colleagues were laughing their heads off. An amazing situation.

We have a habit in the National Party.  [We will stab where we will stab, but we will support where support is needed].  That is our role.  I hope some of you understood that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Do not worry, it will all come right.  It is unfortunate that ~Inkosi~ Nyanga Ngubane, our Minister, misunderstood what we meant when we spoke of the division of the Executive, the Legislature and the judiciary.  When we spoke of a division at ~Ulundi~ we never ever mentioned kicking out ~Amakhosi~ or the House of Traditional Leaders.  They are an institution of this Parliament.  They are an advisory body to this Parliament.  They have a very important function to fulfil and we support the ~Amakhosi~ to use the chamber in ~Ulundi~ any time they wish to use that chamber.


TRANSLATION:  We in the National Party support ~Ubukhosi~, we also support ~Amakhosi~.  We want to support all community work and projects.  We want this chamber here in Pietermaritzburg to be used, and that it should be used for the work of ~Amakhosi~.

I know that it is small and there are many ~Amakhosi~, over 300, but if there is a meeting here in the south of our country it would be good if this House too could be used for the work of ~Ubukhosi~.  We support ~~Ubukhosi~~.  T/E

All we were asking for, that if you need to expand that administrative block in ~Ulundi~, no problem.  I was on radio, I said that on radio in the name of my party, but we are against the waste of money when it comes to duplication of facilities.  That was our bottom line.  That is all I want to say about that matter.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip): [Mr Chairman, no, there is still a lot that I still want to say.  I like ~Amakhosi~, I like ~Amakhosi~].

I agreed with Advocate Madondo because the people out there in the tribal areas are crying for title deeds.  They want economic upliftment.  They are in fact crying for equity so that they can go to their banks and have something, but this need not happen at the cost of indigenous and customary laws, it need not happen at the cost of the authority of the ~Amakhosi~ and of the Indunas in the tribal areas.

I would like to explain it in Zulu. 

TRANSLATION:  Brothers, a cow that eats out in the field will just have enough to be able to feed its calf.  The calf will have its fill, but if you plant food for it, if you give it food, that very same cow will give two teats to the calf and the milk from the other two teats will fill up bottles.

It is the same with land.  If land is connected to title deeds you can milk it twice.  You can milk for ~Amakhosi~, you can also milk for the community.  The community could last and live well.  We say if we have looked twice let us look again.  Let us look at this Act 11 that was passed in ~Ulundi~ in 1992.  Let us look again at this Act.

The community is very hungry, the community should not be further deprived, like the calf is deprived while bottles of milk are being sold but the calf goes hungry.  The community is like that hungry calf, but they could be fed in such a way that the ~Inkosi~ could live, the Indunas could live, the community could live, and the land could also live.

The mother, that cow, must not be killed.  That is what we want.  That is the policy of the National Party.  T/E

The other matter I would like to address is on our provincial parks in this Province.  We are world leaders when it comes to the preservation of natural fauna and flora in this Province.  We have 10% of our surface area under parks which is the nationally accepted ideal norm for parks in any developed society.  We are so fortunate in having so much land for our parks.  It brings a balance.

For instance, if you take vermin and predators and their survival, which is all necessary, if you take our lynx population, our black back jackal population, the fact that they can survive without impacting on our sheep and farming herds of cattle and small stock, is proof of the fact that our balance is correct.  It is so important that that balance be maintained.

We have more problems from two-legged vermin in this Province.  Do you know that the sheep herd at Mooi River Agriculture College has been decimated.  They have not even got a sheep section any more to teach students how to farm with sheep because they have all been stolen.  So we have no problem from our natural environment it is us humans that destroy what is there.  That needs to be addressed.

The other thing I wanted to raise under parks is the importance of our parks to our tourism potential.  We have most wonderful parks.  In one weekend at Umfolozi we saw four of the big five on the first day.  We did not see the leopard but we saw a cheetah mother with three cubs which is just unbelievable.  Most beautiful.

What I want to say about those parks is that somehow we must address our road system.  If you drive from Hilltop down through to Umfolozi Park it takes you almost an hour.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR R E REDINGER: (Whip):  Now we all should drive slowly in the parks yes, but really I look forward to the day when all the access roads to our parks are tarred and especially the road from ~Ulundi~ to the south-western gate of Umfolozi Game Reserve.  It is a shocking road.  It takes an hour to drive 33 kilometres, purely because of the surface which is like a motor manufacturer's test track.  It is just unbelievable.  We need to upgrade all the access roads to our battle fields, from battle field to park.  We must concentrate on those issues.  I look forward to our Cabinet colleagues working closely together to achieve this.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Redinger.  Next to speak will be the hon ~Inkosi~ Mathaba who will speak for ten minutes.

~Inkosi~ K W MATHABA: 

TRANSLATION:   Mr Chairman, I thank you for this opportunity that you have given me to say a few words on behalf of ~Amakhosi~.  I want to support the speech which has been presented to us today by the hon ~Inkosi~ Ngubane.

I think that I heard well, Mr Chairman.  I am saddened when I hear the hon Minister who is in charge of this Department complaining about the amount of money which has been budgeted by the Central Government.  Instead of the money being increased it is being drastically decreased.

However, I want to concentrate on Ubukosi.  Our institution of Ubukosi needs the money that has been drastically reduced.  ~Ubukosi~ is something which has been accepted by God himself.  If I look at the speech of the hon ~Inkosi~ Ngubane I am saddened when I take into account the number of ~Amakhosi~ who need to have their courts repaired.

There are more than 300 ~Amakhosi~.  There are some ~Amakhosi~ that will have to continue trying community issues under trees.  That is indeed, Mr Chairman, what is going to cause the dignity of ~Amakhosi~ to be lowered.  ~Amakhosi~ who continue to try cases under trees while the new Government is in power, and we say we are now governed by a democratic Government.

This really takes me back when I look at the situation that ~Amakhosi~ find themselves in.  It reminds me of the fact that for a long time nobody has paid any heed to ~Amakhosi~, it started a long time ago for ~Amakhosi~ not to be taken heed of.  ~Amakhosi~ never separated from the people, they were in exile right here at home.

I think that our brothers in exile were better off, because the stench of discrimination that discriminated against ~Amakhosi~ night and day was in the nostrils of ~Amakhosi~ all the time.  No matter how difficult it is, Mr Chairman, no matter how difficult it was, in spite of that ~Amakhosi~ stayed here in order to look after the interests of their communities, and to look after the welfare of their people.

Our people, the people under the jurisdiction of ~Amakhosi~ were not at home, they had gone to work.  Some of them had gone to Johannesburg, and some of them had gone to Durban.  ~Amakhosi~ together with the Indunas remained there in the rural areas looking after their welfare.

So it surprises me indeed if this Department of ~Amakhosi~, the Department of the hon ~Inkosi~ Ngubane is not considered in order to better the lot of ~Amakhosi~.

It is a very big mistake that ~Amakhosi~, as I have already said ~Amakhosi~ are there to look after the welfare of their communities, that if the breadwinner, the head of the household has left or died the widow is then made to suffer and chased away.  I say it is a mistake many times over.

~Amakhosi~ are the people that look after the welfare of those that have lost spouses, they look after the widows and take them to the Magistrates, ~Amakhosi~ and the ~Indunas~ so that they can get what is owing to them, so that the children can continue with their education at school.

They even go further and look after the fields that were left by the breadwinner.  So it is a mistake to say ~Amakhosi~ would make the widows suffer.  All that I know is that those people that were living in the townships, they were the people once their menfolk or lovers had died, then they would be chased away from their houses because it was said that they were children.

I remember that in 1982 the Government of KwaZulu passed an Act to the effect that women should be free once their husbands had died.  That Act was passed by ~Amakhosi~.  I believe that the hon Mr Madondo knows that.  Advocate Madondo knows that.

I now want to say to the ~Amakhosi~ that are present in this House, whether you belong to the IFP, whether you belong to the ANC, whether you belong to the Minority Front, whether you belong to the National Party I say that ~Amakhosi~ should stand together.

The institution of Ubukosi has a very, very long history.  It is not something that has just come about today.  Let us stand together as ~Amakhosi~ for the welfare of our people.  I have a question, Mr Chairman, that question is, under the prevailing situation, as the situation prevails, what causes ~Amakhosi~ to be disrespected.

As we have entered a new dispensation under a new Government there are certain ~Amakhosi~ who are referred to as ~Amakhosi~ who are believers.  They were outside the boundary of the old Government.  They have now entered into the equation.  You find that as far as those ~Amakhosi~ are concerned, Mr Chairman, there is not even a courthouse, not even a small hall where they can meet.

They used to live on farms.  If you look at the roads which they use, they are not in good condition.  The roads are not in a condition which one would expect from roads that are used by the public.  If, Mr Minister, the amount of money has been reduced what is going to happen to those ~Amakhosi~ who do not have anything?

I think that this is a lot of hatred so that it will look as if ~Amakhosi~ are not able to do what is necessary for their communities.  We have now reached a time where the areas of ~Amakhosi~ which have been left behind for so long must also be upgraded.

It is our wish that our people who work in the rural areas should receive the proper services, they should use roads which are of an acceptable standard.  They should receive water, they should receive lighting, and stop having to use lamps.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Two minutes left].

~Inkosi~ K W MATHABA: 

TRANSLATION: ~Ubukosi~ is an old institution which needs to be respected.  The Central Government also needs to respect ~Ubukosi~, and honour ~Ubukosi~ because it is something that will not be shaken by anybody.

~Amakhosi~ fought for Ubukosi, the old ~Amakhosi~ fought for ~Ubukosi~ as the Chairman of the Committee has already said.  He counted the ~Amakhosi~ that fought a lot of wars with the English, they fought a lot of wars with the Boers.  They fought for this very ~Ubukosi~.  That is why I say I am asking ~Amakhosi~ to stand together, whichever political party an ~Inkosi~ belongs to we must work for the welfare of our communities.  Thank you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

AN HON MEMBER:  Point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can I hear the point of order.

AN HON MEMBER:  On a point of order.  Mr Chairman, why is the National Party not represented in the House?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I am not in a position to answer that question.  Maybe the Whips can go out and find out what is happening.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, let us continue.  We will wait for them till they come.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Mtetwa who is going to address the House for nine minutes.

MR S N MTETWA: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, I am not going to say anything about what was said by ~I\nkosi~ Mbomvu, the hon Minister of the House of Traditional Leaders and the Environment, when he spoke about the fact that ~Amakhosi~ were being diminished as far as they could see.  I am not going to say anything about that.

I am not going to say anything about what happens in the Houses of Parliament, ~Amakhosi~ being chased out and so on and so forth, I am not going to say anything about that.  I am not going to say anything, although I would like to say something about what happened at the time when the Council of Traditional Leaders was formed, because we all agreed.  The only bone of contention that we had was that you cannot be an advisor that advises yourself.

That was the only bone of contention which was resolved in the end, although some people were unhappy.  I am not going to say anything about that.  We agreed at National level, that is where we agreed.  [LAUGHTER]  I want to say that I agree that as far as development is concerned I will have to say something about that and support the speech which has been made.

I will speak when the time is right.  About this issue of the budget being reduced, I do not want to say anything about that, because when I compare the figures, and I compare them with other departments, to me I get an answer which says as far as this Department of ours, of Traditional Leaders is concerned, things are not too bad.

We have already agreed that we have debts which were caused by these fellows that are now out of Government, which have to be paid.  Belts must be tightened.  If belts have to be tightened we must also accept that here in KwaZulu-Natal, because we are part of South Africa.  We must not be too upset about it, because it is not too bad if one considers other departments where drastic reductions have been made.  [LAUGHTER]

I also do not want to say anything about what was said by the hon ~Inkosi~, the Chairman, because he spoke well today.  I did not hear him criticising the ANC.  Rather than that, the ~Inkosi~ spoke about Sifiso.  I do not want to speak about Sifiso because those are old people's issues.  I heard the ~Inkosi~ when his tongue slipped and he spoke words which should not be spoken.  The ~Inkosi~ said there are people who will remain on the earth until the end of the world.  I know that that is not really what the ~Inkosi~ intended to say, that was a slip of the tongue.  [LAUGHTER]

The ~Inkosi~ that spoke before me here is trying to tell us surreptitiously, but he said in the three years that this Government has been in existence it has not yet built offices or courts for ~Amakhosi~.  The hon ~Inkosi~ Mathaba is telling us surreptitiously that for 20 years that the KwaZulu-Natal Government was in existence and the Pretoria Government that we took over from when they were in existence they were not able to build offices for ~Amakhosi~ or to concern themselves with that.  T/E

REV C J MTETWA:  (Minister of Public Works):  Point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let us hear the point of order.

REV C J MTETWA:  (Minister of Public Works): [I wanted to ask whether my son is talking about the speech of the hon Minister or whether he is answering the different speakers]?

MR S N MTETWA: 
TRANSLATION: I want to request that I am able to continue.  I will answer when I am finished so that my time is not wasted.  I have not said anything yet, I am starting to say something now.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

~Inkosi~ C KHAWULA:  Point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Let us hear the point of order.

~Inkosi~ C KHAWULA: [I wanted to ask that seeing that ~Nyambose~ has not told us anything yet, what indeed is he going to tell us eventually]?

THE CHAIRPERSON:. [That is a question, that is not a point of order].   

MR S N MTETWA:  

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, I trust that their Honours will stop the stopwatch if they keep on disturbing me.  I was talking about the 20 years that the KwaZulu Government was in existence, that it had done nothing.  It is therefore clear that as we have just been in power for three years nobody can really blame us for the fact that nothing has happened, that perhaps something is still going to happen.  Let us believe that.  This is a short period of time, it is equivalent to one night.

This is what I want to say, Mr Chairman.  Here in KwaZulu-Natal the majority of the land in the rural areas falls under the jurisdiction of traditional leaders.  That is the truth which cannot be denied.  Traditional leaders are powerful in these areas.  This power was given to them by an Act which was passed during the time of the KwaZulu Government.  We have not challenged this Act until now.

It is also not our intention to challenge that.  That Act is known as the ~Amakhosi~ and Iziphakanyiswa Act.  This Act empowers ~Amakhosi~, it empowers the Minister of the Department of Traditional Leaders to officially appoint a person as a traditional leader or to remove such person from office.  That is a lot of power.

If, Mr Chairman, you look at ~Amakhosi~ they have power to make decisions pertaining to land.  The only thing that they have been deprived of is that they have not been given full rights pertaining to that land.  When they have been given that power it is said go and fetch what is known as PTO which is "permission to occupy".

You are allowed to give the head of the household permission to occupy the land, but you cannot give him the land, because the land is not really in your hands.  It is said that the land is in the hands of the community.  What is even worse is that as election time approached the fellows changed this thing then they passed an Act known as the Ingonyama Trust Act.

I want to say that that caused a problem for us, that is known by the whole country.  What is good about that, I want to say this, Mr Chairman, and that is when we saw what was bad and what had gone wrong we unanimously agreed.  Although there was some disagreement, but in the end we unanimously agreed.

We even demonstrated this to other provinces when we were in Cape Town.  We were with the hon Mphemphethwa and the hon ~Inkosi~ Khawula at the time when all the provinces were present.  We caucused them before the meeting started, and we said, "Gentlemen, we in KwaZulu-Natal have agreed.  Do not change anything here".

These amendments that we have, we have agreed on them.  Indeed when we entered there it was said, "What does Natal say?  What does KwaZulu-Natal say?".  We said, "We have agreed.  We are requesting you not to change anything".  Nothing was changed.  That was a lesson to us that we are able to do some things by consensus.

All those who had their own amendments put them to one side, because we had agreed.  This was something that affected us.  We are able to do something ...  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Only two minutes left].

MR S N MTETWA: 

TRANSLATION:  Hawu, as easy as that.  I am saying what we need to do, Mr Chairman, because you did not stop the stopwatch, now it is necessary for us to obliterate the perception that exists of discrimination which purports that the ANC does not like ~Amakhosi~, that they are liked by the IFP and the National Party which is something which is not true.

We must obliterate the perception that ~Amakhosi~ are animals, they are savimbis, things that are armed to the teeth with firearms on each side, with glassy eyes.  Here are ~Amakhosi~, we have them here, the redoubtable the hon Mathaba who goes around pressing things all over the place, and it is very nice.  [LAUGHTER]

Hon ~Inkosi~ Khawula in times passed when I heard of him I got the impression that he was something else.  Father is always laughing.  I have never found him angry.  We must do this by marching together, Mr Chairman.  Where we are going to work, where we are going to address people we must do that in conjunction with each other.

When I speak and I say in 1995 we were being honest and open and it came from the bottom of our hearts when we invited the hon Minister Zuma and the hon Minister Dr Zulu to Ntuzuma at the football ground in G Section.  We invited the community, all the community and said they must come and address them.

This was after an agreement that had been reached and made at Lindelani after the disagreements.  We wanted to demonstrate this oneness that they had spoken about.  Sadly, one of them was able to attend and one of them was not.

I say we must continue and do those things.  I must also say that when I speak about Lindelani I do not intend to dig up old bones regarding Mshengu who disappeared.  [LAUGHTER]  I am talking about one thing that was good that we did with him while he was here before he disappeared which brought the peace which presently exists.

Lastly, Mr Chairman, in these last minutes that I have, I want to say if we work together we will get the opportunity to work on the problem which exists in the ~Amakhosi~ areas which is lack of planning.  In all the areas where the ~Amakhosi~ are they do not agree that there be planning in their areas.

They think that their power is being eroded and their land is being taken.  There are those who cause ...  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Your time has run out Nyambose].

MR S N MTETWA: [Betterment scheme, that is what I was talking about]. 

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Yes, we have heard you]. I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Nel to address the House for five minutes.

MR W U NEL: TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Today we have seen a new thing in this House, here in the ANC party, because we are seeing that opportunities are being given to members who do not want to say anything.

There is something that upsets me in this country of ours.  In my opinion there is nothing that lowers the dignity of Ubukosi, and the dignity of the Zulu tradition more than this disagreement between Zulus.

That is the thing that lowers the dignity of Ubukosi.  That is what lowers the dignity of ~Ubukhosi~, this political opportunism.  T/E

And I think, Mr Chairman, it is a pity, because the Zulu tradition and culture is indeed the central part of our heritage, it is something that we should all cherish and we could develop it in the interests of everybody, not only in this Province but in the country as a whole.

We see constantly a playing of political games in particular between the IFP and the ANC.  Even the King is not above falling victim to this political opportunism.


TRANSLATION:  We have heard this morning the hon ~Inkosi~ Khawula talking about the issue of Sifiso Zulu.  Sifiso Zulu was brought by the ANC and he has been discarded by the ANC.  If I heard correctly, according to Zulu tradition, the Zulu Prime Minister and the Prime Minister of the King retains his position until the end of the world, according to ~Inkosi~ Khawula.  T/E

Or at least until it is a permanent position.  But on this side of the House we have gamesmanship and we have a so-called spokesman for the King and the next moment he is no longer spokesman for the King.  That kind of lack of transparency I think is damaging.  It is now high time that we started speaking honestly to each other about matters of Zulu tradition and for example, on formulating and finalising the policy on His Majesty the King, his role, his budget and all of those aspects because the continuing speculation can only continue to inflict damage, which is not necessary.

Our position as the Democratic Party is clear and it always has been.  We do not see a political role for traditional leaders ex officio.  That means that we actually acknowledge and we encourage that traditional leaders should wear two hats, that they can serve as traditional leaders but at the same time be elected to office, whether it is at Local Government level in the Province or at National level.  That is why we defended the right of ~Inkosi~ Buthelezi to serve on the National Council of Traditional Leaders as well as to serve in Parliament and be a Minister because we think that is appropriate.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR W U NEL:  Yes, I do.  I do differ with them.  That is a matter that we have addressed in our ranks, but we have resolved it, because we think it is actually vital that traditional leaders should separate their two roles; that of serving as a traditional leader and the political role.  We think it is crucial that they become involved in political life because the Zulu traditions or any tradition is actually central to community life.  If they are to remain central to community life, then it is important that people who are the custodians of those traditions, should serve on community Government structures and those are the democratically elected structures.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MR W U NEL:  There is nothing that prevents an ~Inkosi~, and indeed we expect that an ~Inkosi~ would be elected democratically to a Local Government structure while simultaneously fulfilling his role as traditional leader.

In that regard we have been very critical of the ANC, for what I personally would say is a dishonest approach to traditional leadership in this country.  We have seen it on many issues but also again on the National Council of Traditional Leaders where there is no provision for the representation of traditional communities, but rather of provinces, and Houses of Traditional Leaders.

We would have wanted to see specific requirements, that every traditional community is represented in that House and also a requirement that there be some acknowledgement of communities that are far larger than others.  That was not done and we believe that a National Council of Traditional Leaders that is not properly constituted, in a representative fashion, is not going to serve the interests of advising the political structures in the way that it should.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR W U NEL:  Chairman, yes.  In conclusion, we think it is high time these things be addressed in an honest and open way.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Our next speaker will be the hon member ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe who will address the House for ten minutes.

~Inkosi~ B N MDLETSHE:
TRANSLATION:  I thank you, Mr Chairman, and your hon House.  I am grateful for the hon Minister's speech and all his efforts that he is making in his Department to look after the issues of ~Amakhosi~ and the environment.

I want to thank ~Amakhosi~ who spoke before me for emphasising that Ubukosi goes hand in hand with respect and dignity.  Those are the good tenets which represent Ubukosi.

I thought I was going to reply to the hon member of the National Party, Mr Redinger, when he spoke about the Act of 1992 which was passed by the KwaZulu Government.  This Act, if you look at it, ultimately empowers the affected people and ~Amakhosi~ to be able to make decisions regarding change, because this change affects their land.  Not that they should be prescribed to and told to do this, and this, and this.  There is nothing that is of greater hinderance than that, for us to be told or given orders as if we do not have the brains to see things for ourselves, or to discuss things.

Mr Chairman, I wanted to talk about the House of Traditional Leaders according to the provisions of the Constitution.  That if you look at the Constitution, Mr Chairman, the 1993 Constitution, that Constitution provides for the Provincial Governments and the National Government to be forced to form a House of Traditional Leaders.

If you look at the present Constitution, the new Constitution which has just recently been passed, which was causing the people to jive a few days ago, it provides that Houses of Traditional Leaders can be formed if so desired.  One thing bothers me, Mr Chairman.  If you listen to the members of all the political parties, they give indications of liking ~Amakhosi~ and being supportive of Ubukosi.

Therefore, what then puzzles me is that why make this optional and say if they so desire, Houses for Traditional Leaders can be formed?  There is danger there, Mr Chairman, there is great danger there.  I am puzzled also by the fact that if you look at the interim Constitution it is clear that the Houses of Traditional Leaders are designed to advise the Government.  I do not see one area where they can be a danger to the Government.  I do not see what they fear which causes them to make Houses of Traditional Leaders depend on the desire of people so it is said, "If they so desire, Houses of Traditional Leaders can be formed".  There is a danger there, Mr Chairman.

I must touch on something else, Mr Chairman, which affects ~Amakhosi~ politically.  People like to talk about us ~Amakhosi~ as if we do not have mouths.

As I am speaking now I am speaking because I do have a mouth.  I do not begrudge anybody if that person wants to talk, and say whatever they want to say about you if they have something to say.  I think that we should be given an opportunity to talk about it.  Let us negotiate in that regard.  We must not be dictated to and told that we are not wanted in politics.

Yet you are our people, according to tradition, and according to the natural course of events yet you can speak about politics.  I think that that is confusing the issue, Mr Chairman.  Let me move away, Mr Chairman, for a short while from the issues of Ubukosi.  I want to touch on what the hon Minister said about the environment.

I am happy, Mr Chairman, and I was happy when this Department was joined together under the hon ~Inkosi~ Ngubane.  If you take the environment and nature conservation and compare it to tradition, these are things that are similar.  I would like to congratulate the hon Minister on the job that his Department is doing, that is the nature conservation side of his Department, what they are doing in regard to developing our people.  Originally, Mr Chairman, we knew that nature conservation and the environment were things for the whites.  Those that have their homes near the Hluhluwe Game Reserve, we knew full well that it was just the whites that entered the game reserve and we were not entitled to do so.

We are happy now when this Department is headed by the hon ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, because there are changes that have taken place.  Those changes show clearly that we also have a role to play in nature conservation and the environment.  It has given me a new way of thinking, a broader way of thinking, Mr Chairman, to think that nature conservation and the environment can do something to develop people's lives.

As far as providing work is concerned, stable work, Mr Chairman, that is not going to chop and change, that there is no possibility that the person's work is going to be taken away from him.  It means that if nature still exists that means that your job still exists.

I was happy when the hon Minister spoke about a fund, a community fund that was being started.  This is empowering us, because there in the rural areas we do not have bases which provide work, which can be compared with Durban and Richards Bay.

What we do have in the rural areas are those places that are rich in nature.  So it is a source of economy to us.  If this economic source is going to be used to help us, the community there which is poor, I applaud that.

I also want to applaud, Mr Chairman, what was said by the hon Minister regarding his Department of Nature Conservation when he said that we too were going to play a role in the decision-making process regarding the game reserves and how they were managed and also the development of game reserves.

There is nothing that hindered us more, Mr Chairman, than what used to happen in times passed, where one saw rhinoceroses walking around.  When a rhinoceros is sold one makes a lot of money.  I have the community which I have, but if a rhinoceros could be sold to me my community would get larger.

I am happy, Mr Chairman, that we are going to have a say now.  We are going to be able to have input in the managing and the running of the game reserves which exist close to us.  There are certain programmes which are conducted in the game reserves in order to communicate with the community.

The hon Minister has mentioned them in his speech.  I say one of the things that we who live close to the game reserves must applaud is the initiating of such programmes.  Firstly, this is an indication of the changes that are taking place in order to change the situation which existed previously.  I did touch on the previous situation, Mr Chairman.  I mentioned that previously these were areas for whites only.

We knew that if you entered there and you had a black skin you would be arrested, that is all that could happen to you, nothing else.  There was nothing there for you.  Then it would be alleged that you had stolen a warthog, because we love warthogs.  So, Mr Chairman, if there are programmes that have been started by the hon Minister's Department in order to create communication, and co-operation between the game reserves and us, we must applaud that.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [You have two minutes, sir].

~Inkosi~ B N MDLETSHE:

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Something else that I heard on the television news, where people from the townships were speaking about ~Amakhosi~, when they were talking about which department should be given money.  They said the Department of ~Amakhosi~ could be given just a little bit of money.

They believe that we are useless people, Mr Chairman.  If you want to be fixed up, come to the ~Amakhosi~ from the Mdletshes, you will get that.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Rajbansi who will address the House for five minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  In respect of conservation and our natural resources, our fauna and flora, we can say that we have qualities and standards that are amongst the best in the international arena.

When I talk of standards, I do not look at western standards or the white person's standards, because Mr Ian Player has recognised that some of the greatest roles that was played in conservation in our country was amongst our African people, without western education.

Of course I am very displeased to note in the hon Minister's address that the monetary allocation to our Oceanographic Research Institute, referred to as ORI, has been reduced.  I want to say to the hon Minister that from my limited knowledge of this institute, that we must accept the fact that this institute is playing a very great role in our sea research, because ultimately when we are going to get problems with obtaining food from the land, our salvation will be the unlimited resources in the sea.

Therefore, I want to make a plea to the hon Minister and the Portfolio Committee, to put in every effort, to ensure that this allocation is increased during the current financial year.  I want to also make a plea to the hon Minister, that in spite of negative sentiments expressed about our traditionalism from certain quarters, and I am not criticising the ANC because I know the ANC played an important role in putting that important clause in the Constitution, that traditionalism is here from the dawn of civilisation.

I want to say to those westerners who are looking at traditionalism differently, organised Government was here in this country, organised Government was there in the Asian subcontinent of India, long before the first white explorer came to this country.  We must be proud of that because your traditional law actually is a structure of Local Government, to the extent to which in India we were very proud of the fact that Indians had Government structures, long before the first white man put foot on the shores of India.  Even today, Mr Minister, there is a phrase called "Phanchayat Raj" in the Indian Constitution and that refers to traditional local government.  Every year when the President of India delivers his freedom day message he stresses the importance of traditional local government and traditionalism in India.

I also want to make a plea, as I have placed a draft notice of motion for consideration by this House, what about traditionalism in other communities?  What about retaining and recognising the customs, traditions, practices, activities, way of life of all communities of this Province?  I think we must now consider a slight expansion in the House of Traditional Leaders, to include those traditional leaders from other communities, because as the leader of the Inkatha Freedom Party has always indicated that the foundation of our Province, right or wrong, is built on multi-culturalism and multi-traditionalism.  I want to make a plea today for the recognition of traditionalism in the Indian community, as there is traditionalism in other communities also.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Let us have a policy.  I am very pleased that the hon Minister has laid emphasis on Inyangas and the traditional medicine market, which is growing to R1,2 billion, and related to that he has said that the conservation authorities were misunderstanding this.

It is an important industry.  They get their medicines from the species that are regarded as endangered, and I am glad that there is co-operation between our Parks Board and the Inyangas, as far as this matter is concerned.

Likewise, I want to say, let there me an understanding between the conservation authorities and those who want to lift the ban on shad.  We want conservation, but on the one hand you are punishing the subsistent fisherman and allowing the commercial fisherman to run amok with the catching of shad.  I make a plea to the Minister, let us resolve this.  Let us get the opinion of a very eminent Judge in our Province, Justice John Broome and let us abide by his recommendation.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Gwala to address the House for ten minutes.

MR M B GWALA:  Mr Chairman and the hon House.  I feel so glad to debate on the Traditional Affairs budget vote this year.  I wish to congratulate the Minister for a remarkable speech he made at the international conference on traditional leadership held at Umtata last month.

You actually gave a direction that traditional people should take, and what the politicians should do to avoid a situation that will lead the country into an abyss.  I would appreciate it if the hon Minister could give each member of this Legislature a copy of that speech.

I also wish to congratulate the hon Minister for a well prepared budget speech on the Traditional Affairs vote for 1997.

When one talks about traditional authorities, only a few believe that traditional authorities will one day cease to exist.  This is a serious mistake.  I want to make it clear that traditional authorities will remain forever as long as the African continent and its people exist.

We have repeatedly made qualified statements, that traditional leaders, traditional structures and traditional customary law have a crucial and important role to play in the new South Africa.

~Amakhosi~ are well aware how the ANC in the Kingdom of KwaZulu-Natal wanted to reduce the role of traditional leaders in Local Government structures, and how strongly and ultimately successful the IFP fought to give ~Amakhosi~ a meaningful role in the Local Government in this Province.  Indeed it is tragic that there are elements within the ANC even today who are moving in exactly the opposite direction.

Those who have been in neighbouring countries such as Zimbabwe, can tell you that African leaders are haunted by this nightmare of the lack of traditional leaders or the nightmare as a result of the feeble structures of traditional authorities where it exists.

The true Africanists in the ANC need to stand up and regain control of the organisation from a small clique of communists.  It needs to be recognised that traditional leaders and its structures are not incompatible with democracy, but are in their very essence democratic and legitimate.

Africa knew the concept of democracy before the ballot box was brought to the continent by the western countries, and we need to recognise this.

Traditional leaders and its structures in Africa were and remain democratic, in the sense that it is Government by the people of the people and for the people.  We as African people must stop apologising for our history, our traditions and our culture.

Here in KwaZulu we will fight for the recognition of the institution of ~Ubukhosi~ up to the bitter end.  We will not do it just by word of mouth but to make sure that such recognition is entrenched in Chapter 12 of the National Constitution of 1996.

I wish to repeat, that those who claim that they recognise the King of the Zulu nation, and that the King is the King of all the people in the Province and South Africa, must also recognise the realities that the King is a King because there is a kingdom.  There is no King without a kingdom and there is no kingdom that exists in a vacuum.

Early this year, I mentioned the fact that KwaZulu existed before a white man set foot in this part of the world.  For almost a century now, it was KwaZulu which provided the parameters within which modern history unfolded.  It was KwaZulu which stood there to inhibit the southern expansion of Portuguese interests.

It was KwaZulu which blocked the eastward expansion of the Transvaal whites.  The only full scale war the British army ever fought against a black grouping, was the war it fought against KwaZulu.

Our conquest only thrust us into a state of conquest and enforced servitude, which we resisted in the Bambatha rebellion and in our struggle against colonialism and later against racism and ~~apartheid~~.

Therefore, I think that the existence of the Traditional Affairs Department in this Province is prerequisite, and its existence will help to revive their traditions and customs which were suppressed by colonial forces during the reign of King Cetshwayo.

Due to the fact that the Department of Justice is now a National competence, signals the fact that the Provincial Affairs Department must begin to stand on its own feet, since it has been operating through the district magistrate offices.

I want to make a practical suggestion to the Department of Traditional Affairs.  Since the Department has to control its entire system, all tribal offices be controlled directly by the Provincial Department of Traditional Affairs, so that the quality of services and efficiency rendered by the officials of the Justice Department will remain and be improved.

This means that the Department has to employ its own qualified clerks to run tribal business, which includes financial control and book records.  One understands the fact that such an exercise will consume an enormous amount of money, but the only way of keeping the service in good order is to do just that.

We heard that trucks which were supplied by the then chief Ministry of KwaZulu to assist ~Amakhosi~ in various regional authorities have been withdrawn by this Department.  I appeal to the Department to reconsider its decision, since tribal authorities have been deprived of assistance, which was a fortune for the destitute constituencies such as tribal areas.


TRANSLATION:  I also want, Mr Chairman, to talk about this issue which concerns us greatly.  That is the issue of people not being able to build beautiful houses in the areas which are governed by ~Amakhosi~ because the banks will not advance the finance in those areas.  It would be good if this programme was started on the farms, because there are people who live on the farms and work on the farms.  Let us look at the whites that have a lot of farms.  They have huge farms.  Title deeds should be given to the people that live on the farms first.

Let us see this programme in operation, let us see how it works on the farms, let us first see if it is viable on the farms, then we can come back to the areas of ~Amakhosi~.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR M B GWALA:  

TRANSLATION:  I want to continue and express my regret, Mr Chairman, that there are still people in this House who, when they talk about ~Amakhosi~, ~Amakhosi~ who are the rulers of the land, who were put there by God, and then there are people who talk about the decisions which the ~Amakhosi~ have made and refer to them as "these fellows".

I say to the hon member, Mr Mtetwa, I know him as a person who belongs to the Royal House which is very important, that of the Bathethwas, for him to use a word which saddened me so much, and say ~Amakhosi~ are fellows.  T/E

Finally, sir, I wish to support the budget vote for Traditional Affairs 1997.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Mkhwanazi who will address the House for five minutes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:

TRANSLATION:  They were the first at the coalface of the army.  The very fact that we can talk today and say that we have land here in Africa, it was the ~Amakhosi~ who stood up and fought with their people to defend the land.  So we of the PAC support you, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, in this vote of your Department.

The day we receive a greater vote and the Africans wake up from the sleep that they are sleeping, we will change the name "traditional leaders", and we will refer to them as "the Royals", these people, ~Ubukhosi~.  To refer to somebody as a traditional leader means that that person is an adult who was there and was a leader.

We say they are ~Amakhosi~.  This is the Institution of ~Ubukhosi~ from Africa which was created by the Creator.  I go on from there, Mr Chairman, and say, we reject in toto, "~Amakhosi~ are ~Amakhosi~", according to the natural order and they were born to be ~Amakhosi~.  When these things came, when colonialism came here to Africa there were organised communities.  Our particular community had an army, an organised army.  The regiments were organised according to the natural order.  So the Africans must desist from the notion that ~Amakhosi~ are puppets, that they were bought by the Boer Government or the Government of the oppressors.

That is why we are complaining about the new Constitution due to the fact that anything that mentions ~Ubukosi~, and anything to do with Ubukosi only takes up about 12 lines.  Perhaps even there, there is the notion that perhaps it has been left to the people themselves to resurrect ~Ubukosi~ and place it in its rightful position as we here in KwaZulu restored it and stood for it.

Even when the whites referred to our ~Inkosi~ as a paramount chief, we stood fast and referred to the ~Ingonyama~.  I am now coming to the crux, Mr Chairman, that I want us to rectify.  That is the issue of land and ~Amakhosi~, and banks, and loans which are advanced.

As far as ~Amakhosi~ are concerned, it is not the truth to say that ~Amakhosi~ are people that want to horde everything for themselves as far as land is concerned.  ~Amakhosi~ administer the land for the community.  When you go to ~Amakhosi~ and you ask them for land, ~Amakhosi~ call the community and you are given a piece of land if there is land available.

Yes, I hear what is being said about the fact that as soon as the ~Inkosi~ has an altercation or a disagreement with somebody, the ~Inkosi~ then chases that person away.  No, that is something that did not happen.  What we know is that in times past if a person was a witch or a wizard that killed people there was something that was used in order to ensure that the person that killed people was fixed up in that fashion.

This new thing comes with politics.  This thing of saying that if a person does not get on with the ~Inkosi~, that person is then chased away from the area.  That is not an ~Inkosi~.  That ~Inkosi~ should not be referred to as an ~Inkosi~.  That is just a crook that is exploiting the people.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MR J D MKHWANAZI: TRANSLATION:  In this minute let me say, this thing of saying that the land must not be developed in the areas of ~Amakhosi~, that is done because Africans and others that are sitting in this room, the banks are still colonial banks, they are not our banks.

The people that need to change are the banks, and give money to people so that they can build, because once a person has been given land by an ~Inkosi~, that person will not move from that land.  That land belongs to that person.  The sad thing is that these banks are not our banks.  The banks belong to other people.  They give money to people because that money is going to be used for ploughing, not because they want to help the people.  That money is being employed to work and earn interest.

So then, Your Excellency, let us sit down and talk, and rectify this issue of land tenure so that the people are able to benefit in the land of their birth that was giving to them by the Creator.  They should not be governed by the issue of banks, by people who are sitting in London, and who are sitting in America.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  I now wish to call upon the hon member ~Inkosi~ Mlaba to address the House for nine minutes.

~INKOSI~ Z M MLABA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Firstly, I would like to congratulate the hon Minister for the budget speech he made when he was presenting the budget for his Department.

It is always interesting to say something or contribute when the budget for the Traditional and Environmental Affairs is presented, because to me the whole system and set up of this Department is controversial.  There are many things which need to be looked at and corrected for the good of the Province.

LAND

I will briefly touch on the role and functions of traditional leaders generally.  Regarding land, ~Amakhosi~ and their structures are the custodians of the tribal land on behalf of the community.  Their prime task is to allocate pieces of land for the use of building homes, grazing and ploughing.  This has been practised by the tribes over many years.  Governments have come and gone trying to clarify and define the exact role and functions of ~Amakhosi~ in this regard.

It is only this current Constitution in Chapter 12, where it is clearly stated that the traditional leaders are to sit and be the ex officio members in Local Government and be the members of the House of Traditional Leaders.  There are those who sit in the Council of Traditional Leaders where they play an advisory role to the National Assembly.  In Local Government, as ex officio members, they observe traditions and customs.

LAND TENURE SYSTEM

As for the land tenure system, it is essential to establish a variety of tenure forms that will adequately accommodate African traditional systems of land ownership in both the rural and urban contexts.  A diversity of legal forms must be allowed for different types of ownership, such as individuals, families and groups.

Group based ownership systems, especially of traditional lands, needs to be explored.  The role of the traditional leaders and tribal authorities in administrating the land has to be clarified.  There is a need to investigate the possibility of individually owned systems.

While dealing with the land tenure system, one must congratulate the Minister and the members of the Portfolio Committee on Traditional Affairs for their effort to pass through and enact the amendment of the KwaZulu Ingonyama Trust Act.  This amendment has eased the fears and concerns that the areas falling under the trust will be difficult to develop as Ingonyama alone does not have the capacity to deal with 13% of land belonging to the tribal authorities.

There has always been a disagreement among the parties as to how the House of Traditional Leaders and the Council of Traditional Leaders should be established.  All six provinces which have traditional leaders have Houses of Traditional Leaders with advisory powers, which later created the National Council of Traditional Leaders with the advisory powers to the National Assembly.

Many African countries have the same task of marrying democracy with the system of traditional leaders.  Of course, there are few who have successfully achieved this goal.  Botswana is one of them.  When the delegation of the South African provinces visited Botswana to learn more about the role and functions of ~Amakhosi~, we thought the Botswana system was the best.  The traditional leaders play an advisory role from the Local Government up to National Government level.

We were told that the stability and prosperity was as a result of their system.  For example, there is legislation that bars ~Amakhosi~ from holding dual positions.  They have to choose between the two, be a politician or a traditional leader.

I believe something needs to be done about the tribal areas that border on the towns and cities of our Province, where people have changed their traditional ways of life into semi-urban ways of life.  I want to believe that there is no harm in these areas becoming part of towns and metro councils, if the communities choose to be incorporated.  ~Amakhosi~ and their structures, in this situation, will still have a say in land issues as they are still holding rights on behalf of their tribal communities.

I really believe rural areas should be a priority in terms of development.  The budget for the rural development should be enough to cater for the tribal areas which was deliberately sidelined by the previous Government.  The budget for the regional councils and Traditional Affairs Department is too little and we hope the next budget will address our concern.

In conclusion, Mr Chairman, we welcome the budget presented by the hon Minister for this financial year.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, ~Inkosi~ Mlaba.  I now wish to call upon the hon Minister G L Zulu who will address the House for eight minutes.  Sorry, Mrs Downs, there have been some amendments on my list but you will follow.

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Welfare and Pensions): 

TRANSLATION:  I want to make mention that it was not a mistake that this Department should be headed by an ~Inkosi~ as we believe in the institution of ~Ubukhosi~.

I want to congratulate the ~Inkosi~ and say that he is leading this Department with skill and dignity.  However, I want to state my unease, and my unhappiness with the efforts that are being made to divide ~Amakhosi~ politically.  This upsets me, because the ~Amakhosi~ were the very people who fought with the oppressors when they tried to grab the land.

It was the ~Amakhosi~ and their families.  I want to say that I am upset because ~Amakhosi~ are the tillers of the Zulu Royalty.  So if it is said ~Amakhosi~ should be removed, we have seen with our neighbours to the north where the ~Amakhosi~ were removed.  We have seen the disaster which ensued.

Now we do not want not to learn from the things that we have seen with our neighbours, for us not to learn the lesson that this will be repeated here.  Why should ~Amakhosi~ be removed, because they have a role to play in the governing of the nation?

These are the ~Amakhosi~ who were directly involved with development in the time of ~~apartheid~~.  These are the ~Amakhosi~ who asked their families to make decisions to get involved, and deeply involved in development, to build schools, and to get involved in all sorts of development in the community.

I know, Mr Chairman, that in many countries in Africa ~Amakhosi~ are no longer there, especially in countries which are being governed by Communists, because communism does not go together with Ubukosi.

I want to issue a warning here and say we will never agree that ~Ubukhosi~ be removed, and that Communists replace them, and govern the country.  For this land the people of KwaZulu died, and their blood was shed.  ~Ubukhosi~ of KwaZulu exists because there are ~Amakhosi~ and there are people.

We have seen the efforts that have been made to drive a wedge between the King of KwaZulu and his people, and the Royal House itself.  Those were satanic ploys.  I am grateful, because that which has been ordained by God will not change.

We have also seen that this land of KwaZulu has been taken today by the Constitution of the country.  I felt bad the day before yesterday when we were there at KwaMadabuka, at Piet Retief, KwaMthethwa, where the ~Inkosi~ of the area was going to be inaugurated.  He is a Zulu ~Inkosi~.  He is ~Inkosi~ of the Royal House.  His ancestors were inaugurated as ~Amakhosi~ by King Mpande himself, in order for them to look after the borders there.

I was glad, however, because the hon Mr Mtetwa that was with me there said it in so many words, he said, "Oh, the ancestors of this land, they had come here to guard against the Swazis".  Today it is being said the ~Amakhosi~ of this our land must be Swazis.  There is an insult there.

An insult must be answered at the outset, and removed.  This land of KwaZulu, which boundaries are being diminished by the Constitution, in the end is going to cause a disaster.  I am asking that everybody who wants peace must ensure that the land of KwaZulu is not raped, because it is not a woman.

~Ubukhosi~ of KwaZulu is not raped because it is not a woman.  So I say ~Amakhosi~ must be left alone to continue with development in their communities.  Let them continue to support ~Ubukhosi~ of KwaZulu, because the Royalty of KwaZulu is not the same as the Royalty of the English where the Queen is alone, far removed.  The Royalty ~Ubukhosi~ of KwaZulu has a structure.  The structure is ~Amakhosi~ and their families, because an ~Inkosi~ is an ~Inkosi~ because of his people.

~Amakhosi~ are the blanket of ~Ubukhosi~.  So people must stop beating about the bush, hiding their real agendas, whereas in fact they mean something else.  Mr Chairman, a lot of work has been done by the hon Dr Buthelezi in this land of KwaZulu.

His actions speak for themselves.  I see that there are those who are very concerned about the position which he holds.  We do not care, he can leave his position as Minister of the Interior and come back and live here, and be the ~Inkosi~ of the Buthelezi people, which is a part of ~Ubukhosi~ of KwaZulu.  We do not go to sleep and dream about positions.  The position which he was given was a position that was held by uNgqengelele, it was held by ~Inkosi~, the Prime Minister uMnyamana, it was held by his father who was the son-in-law to the Royal House, Matoli himself.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [There are two minutes left, sir].

PRINCE G L ZULU: (Minister of Welfare and Pensions): 
TRANSLATION:  Yes, I hear that, brother.  It is my plea that the nation of KwaZulu be left to its own devices.  We must not be baited with pie in the sky that we will never receive.  Thank you, Baba.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: Next on the list is the hon member Mrs Downs who will speak for five minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I do not have very much time so I can only focus on one thing.  I am going to focus on the environment.

Just to say very briefly that I went to the library in ~Ulundi~ to find a book on traditional leaders and tribal habits and customs, so that I could speak with some authority, and there was nothing.  There was nothing in ~Ulundi~ library that I could look at that could tell me anything about traditional leaders.

I want to go on to the environment now and I want to speak about the paltry allocation that has been given to fight pollution.  The whole allocation is R3,5 million and only R800 000 goes directly to fight pollution.

I come from an area where AECI, S A Tioxide, SAPPI/SAICOR and so on live, and when I see in my local newspaper, every single week, comments about the air quality, comments about the quality of the sea, where last week in our local newspaper there was a whole article where SAPPI/SAICOR had discharged into the sea, which is near the Aliwal Shoal by the way, and the foam that was on the beaches was more than waist height.

We want to attract tourists to our Province.  We want to attract visitors.  We want to attract business and so on but if we have environmental problems like that, tourists are not going to come.  If they cannot get to the beaches because the foam from some effluent waste is in the sea, whether it is harmful to humans or not, they are going to look at that and say, "Ugh" and go away somewhere else where it is clean, like in the Cape.

We are talking about the environment and this has a direct repercussion on this particular vote.  If we do not spend money in preventing big businesses from polluting our atmosphere, from polluting our soil, from polluting our rivers and from polluting our seas it is going to impact on every other area of living.

Let me ask you a question.  How did Thor Chemicals happen?  Because there was not enough legislation in place to actually deal with offenders, because people just did not care.  We are doing the same thing now, we do not care enough.

We need legislation and I hope the Department is going to be working on this, we need tight controls and not R200 fines for disobeying the legislation.  We need huge fines so that when big business pollutes our land, our seas and our marine reserves they feel the pinch in their pocket, because that is where it hurts and then they will not do it.

Now I have seen again in the local newspaper, in the Daily News I think it was last week, where the people of Wentworth are complaining about Genrec.  The hon member Mr Hamilton, in his speech, made a big noise about the industries that were coming into KwaZulu-Natal and that is good.  I am not saying that that is a bad thing, but I note that industries like Mondi and industries like SAPREF are known pollutants.  I wonder if they are not coming into this Province because our pollution control is so poor.

I also want to bring up things like Durban.  I know that we as a Legislature are not in charge of what Durban Municipality does, but when you look into the streets of Durban and there is solid waste everywhere, lying around everywhere and all the newspapers are reporting rat infestations and so on.  Are tourists going to come and visit Durban?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  If this Department actually puts in a coherent strategy of pollution control, we will then actually send a message to the local authorities that they too must institute their end of it.  

We also send a message to National Government that we can actually handle this, that we should be able to handle it and that it may then become a Provincial competence.  I can see my colleagues in the ANC waving and shouting.  But to spend R800 000 for this entire Province, for the entire pollution control is ridiculous.  It is patently ridiculous and we are heading our ship into very troubled water.

I know that there are financial constraints.  I also know that the Department has said that it does not have the capacity to spend more than that.  If the Department does not have the capacity then we need to employ consultants and people that have, and I suggest that we put in another R20 to R30 million into this area, particularly because it is so serious.  This affects our children that come after us and we need to be responsible and we need to hand over to our children a clean and pollution-free environment.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  Next on the list is the hon Minister of Public Works, Minister Mtetwa who will address us for ten minutes.

REV C J MTETWA:  (Minister of Public Works):

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, and your hon House.  It is very encouraging, it makes me very happy also that I will be talking today about our traditions of democracy.

Listen to me carefully, my child Makhaye, because I am speaking to teach you and others.  Real democracy, not western democracy which arrived with the whites and they turned everything upside down so that they could govern.

I am saying this indeed because I want us to paint the real picture.  History will judge us harshly, we the Zulus that are in this room, because everything that we are saying is being recorded.  We are passing each other, some are going down, and some are going up trying to build lies and turn it into truth.

I am going to talk about ~Ubukhosi~ and the way to govern democratically.  When I talk about ~Ubukhosi~ I want you to understand me well, I am not talking about chieftainship, I am talking about ~Ubukhosi~ as it was before the arrival of the whites.  ~Ubukhosi~ is not the ~Inkosi~ himself, but ~Ubukhosi~ is a structure.

This structure is very wide.  This is the structure that holds ~Amakhosi~ in place.  It is the same structure as Izinduna, it is the same structure that holds the tribal authorities in place which govern together with ~Amakhosi~.  This is the structure that governs the governing of the land, and the community which is governed democratically.

Our traditional democracy operates in this fashion even though it has been undermined in certain areas, but in reality it is the majority that puts the ~Inkosi~ in place.  It is the majority that puts the Izinduna in place.  A person who is going to become an Induna is chosen by the community in the area that he is going to control.

The ~Inkosi~ then inaugurates him as he has been chosen.  A person who is given a piece of land traditionally, because the talk that is going around these days it is said ~Amakhosi~ are the people who give people pieces of land.  People who say that are very wrong traditionally.  There is no ~Inkosi~ that gives land to a person.

A person is found by a relative or a friend.  That person then finds a place for him, introduces that person to the neighbours.  That person is then taken to the Induna.  The Induna then hears from the people whether this person is truly accepted by the community.  Then the Induna takes the matter to the ~Inkosi~.

The ~Inkosi~ does not even know this person.  Perhaps the ~Inkosi~ will not even go to see the piece of land that this person has been given.  The ~Inkosi~ then accepts that and satisfies himself that that piece of land has been given to him.  The ~Inkosi~ himself will then respect that piece of land.  That is his title.  As people that grew up in the mission do not know that people there in the areas of the ~Amakhosi~ have got title deeds.

A person that has built a home in the ~Inkosi~'s area has a title deed that is not taken from him.  A piece of land that was given to my grandfather is still mine today, because that homestead was built by my grandfather.  Then the whites get confused because of what we tell them, and they think that we are telling them the truth, whereas in fact we are not telling them the real way, the traditional way, which is the true way indeed of how things are done.

No ~Inkosi~ just goes out and gives a person a piece of land.  The person is found by a relative or a friend.  That person is introduced to the neighbours, he is introduced to the people of the area and accepted.  If that person is not allowed there, if they do not agree that he can have that land, he cannot be given that land.  That is the voice of the majority.

When the ~Inkosi~ is governing, the ~Inkosi~ just does not go out on his own and get up on his high chair and start trying cases by himself.  The cases are tried by the community, according to Zulu tradition.  Then the ~Inkosi~ is told, "~Inkosi~, he has been found guilty".  Then the ~Inkosi~ says, "You are found guilty", that is after the majority has said so.

The ~Inkosi~ does not go out on his own.  Because people do not know Zulu traditions, people say all sorts of things which are not true, and our traditions are soiled.  Instead of that, now that we have advocates and we have teachers who can modernise things, they should be modernising our traditions so that they accord with the times.

Instead of that, they find fault and talk nonsense.  If you say I am talking nonsense, Ngidi will be my witness.  If we go here to Edendale - how long has Edendale been around?  This is an area where people can buy.  Look how many shacks there are.  [LAUGHTER]  These are people where people can buy, but there is no development there.  This is where people that have bought are living.  Let us go to Blaauwbosch.  That is a place where people have been able to buy for a long time.  What is it like there when you get there?  Is there development there?  Then I will say let us go to Msingatopi, to Madondo's place.  There you will see development in the rural areas.  Then he comes here and denies it and says there is no development in the rural areas.

That is where the voice of the majority was really enforced indeed.  It is now difficult for people to discern, for us as individuals to discern between these two differing voices, and say which one is indeed telling the truth without knowing that when you talk about democracy the whites will understand you perfectly.  It is like putting sugar to sweeten it up.  We are not putting sugar, no.

We must tell the truth as it is.  It is our way of doing things, and if it has to be rectified in order to come into line with the modern times, nevertheless, we must tell it like it is.  We must not minimise it or add to it.  There are a lot of people that are confused.  Those people who accepted Somtseu's law and then they say that that is traditional law, that is our law, whereas in fact those were laws that were changed by Somtseu and he did that in order to make it easy for them to govern.

Somtseu was the person who brought up the idea that the ~Inkosi~ must be the person who talks, and that the ~Inkosi~ must not listen to the Izinduna.  He used to take ~Amakhosi~ out of their homes.  The ~Inkosi~ did not go home at certain times.  There were certain men and it was known that certain matters are dealt with by so-and-so.  The whites realised that it would not go well for them.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  UMhlonishwa unemizuzu emibili esele.  [The hon Minister has two minutes left].

REV C J MTETWA: (Minister of Public Works): 

TRANSLATION:  Thank you, sir.  I am coming back to this issue that the traditional way of ruling is not dangerous, it does not cause problems.  We are the problem, because the majority of us were born when we did not really know what the true way of doing things was.

When this Parliament first convened, Mr Chairman, I tabled a resolution which was accepted unanimously by the House.  I requested that there should be a day when this whole House would go into caucus.  We could talk about ourselves and really get to know each other.  This House agreed, but until today that has never happened.  These are the things that cause us to talk and go backwards and forwards about violence which does not come to an end, people tell lies and say all these things.  This is where the problem lies and needs to be rectified here.  That resolution is there in Hansard, that this House agreed to.  That caucus has never been held, and without us having that caucus we will continue running around in circles, making a cacophony of sound.

We say we have come to Parliament, we have actually come to a concert.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: Our next speaker will be the hon Mr Jeffery who will speak for ten minutes.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I would like to start by adding my congratulations to the hon Minister for his budget presentation.

Environmental affairs and conservation are areas of concurrent competence.  This means that both the Provincial and the National Government share responsibility.  The National Government has powers to override but the main responsibility for the administration of environmental and conservation matters rests with this Province.

This area is a priority.  The Province is blessed with an abundance and diversity of natural resources but these resources are also limited.  They are threatened by the increase in population and the pressures placed by this expanding population on the environment.  If not properly managed they will be gone and we will not be able to replace them.  The environment and the natural resource areas have been referred to as the goose that lays the golden egg.  I think that is with reference to the money that they generate in terms of tourism, and obviously if the goose is starved it will not lay golden eggs.

But the environment is more than a goose laying golden eggs, it is the house that we live in, and if you damage or dirty or destroy your house, then your own living conditions become bad and the quality of your own life becomes bad.

MR A RAJBANSI:  And if you smoke too many cigarettes?

MR J H JEFFERY:  Some of us are trying to give that up.  Not yet though.  The key is to ensure a balance.  Our rural areas are impoverished.  People want development.  They have expectations that development will bring employment, facilities and an improvement in their living conditions and lifestyle, but we need to ensure a balance between development and conserving our natural resources.

Development needs to take place.  It cannot be stopped but it needs to be done in such a way as to limit the impact on the environment.  Environmental impact studies need to be conducted prior to development plans being agreed upon.  There needs to be proper planning.  Development also needs to be geared towards the local people, the local communities.  They need to be directly involved and the projects need to be geared towards their benefit.

It is all very well, for example, to build a large hotel in a rural area, but if the only benefit for that hotel is some employment for the local people that is not enough.  You need to look at the relationship between that hotel and the surrounding communities, and other ways in which those surrounding communities can benefit economically, for example, by the sale of handicrafts made in those local communities, the sale of food grown in those areas as well as the provision of entertainment by local cultural groups and so on.

Local communities need to be fully involved in the whole issue of environment and conservation.  The parks and the reserves are important as tourist resorts.  There have been problems in the creation of those parks, either the creation or the expansion in that people, local communities were often removed for those parks to be created or for them to be expanded.  What was really seen in the past, is they were removed to create parks largely for local whites and foreign whites to come and look at rhinos, elephants and buffalo amongst others.

These issues need to be resolved, taking into account both the claims and the history of the affected communities, the conservation requirements and also the tourism potential.  Solutions need to be found that are advantageous to all the groupings involved, all the stakeholders.  International tourism generates foreign exchange, but we also need to encourage local tourists, in particular from communities who have historically not had the opportunities to visit these areas.

Conservation is all too often seen as a white middle class issue.  It is perceived as the haves who have it all, who want to protect a rare species of frog or spider at the expense of uplifting impoverished communities.  We need to put greater effort into encouraging the involvement of previously disadvantaged communities, in particular African communities, in conservation and awareness of the environment.  This I believe is a priority for the Department.

The Environmental Education Section of the Department hopefully will start addressing these issues, but I think it is a key priority that all communities need to be getting involved on the question of environment and conservation.

It is encouraging to hear from the hon Minister, that the legislation which will result in the long awaited amalgamation of the Department of Nature Conservation and the Parks Board is to be tabled very soon.  This issue though, needs to be properly dealt with.

When I was reading the speech by my hon colleague the hon Mrs Cronje in the budget debate last year, she said that she is beginning to feel like a stuck record when she says it again that the process of amalgamation is long overdue.  She goes on to say:

	However, I believe that if a couple is engaged for too long, the prospective bride and groom start finding reasons why they should not marry each other and relatively small issues then start taking on major proportions.

I was beginning to get concerned that this had in fact happened because of the length of time that the process was taking.  So it is encouraging to know that the legislation is soon to be tabled.

It is important though, in spite of the pressure on us for this legislation, that the proper processes are followed once it is introduced into the House, that we do need to have hearings for the public to make an input and to comment on the legislation before we finalise it.

It goes without saying but when one has to say this, that the budget for Environmental Affairs and Conservation is inadequate.  We cannot achieve our full potential and we need to ensure that in the future, whilst one accepts the pressures of other programmes and projects in departments, that we do get more money in particular for the question of environmental affairs and pollution control.

Mr Chairman, in conclusion, the Committee has in the past enjoyed a very good relationship with the hon Minister and his Department.  One would hope that that relationship would continue and strengthen.  We accept that the hon Minister has a lot on his plate in terms of other portfolios, but we hope that he would be able to spend more time with the Committee in the coming year in order to ensure that there is proper co-ordination between the Committee, the hon Minister and the Department.

In addition, the Committee has in the past approached things on a fairly apolitical level.  There has been a sense that environment and conservation are important issues, we cannot waste time with political bickering over particular points.  We need to collectively work as a team to address the problems facing these areas.

Mr Chair, I would hope that the spirit and this attitude on the part of the Committee can continue in the coming year.  Thank you, Mr Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Jeffery.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Ms Barrett who will address the House for 14 minutes.

MISS B BARRETT:  Chairman, hon members of the House.  I stand here today with a sense of déjà vu, or more aptly déjà dit.  Not only have we already seen this budget, with minor changes from that of last year, but mostly everything to be said today, with reference to the Environment Affairs budget allocation, has already been said.

What I am going to repeat, and will continue to repeat until such time as the firm recommendations of the Environment Affairs Portfolio Committee of this Parliament are taken seriously by Treasury, concerns the gross under-funding of the only NGO in Southern Africa, solely dedicated to marine research and education, namely the South African Association for Marine Biological Research.  SAAMBR is comprised of a research facility, the Oceanographic Research Institute, ORI; the aquarium, Sea World; and the Marine Education Centre.

According to the budget before us, the South African Association for Marine Biological Research has once again been allocated the paltry sum of R200 000.  It has been stated at our meeting with the Finance Committee that SAAMBR is lucky to receive anything at all because 'Marine Resources' is an exclusive national legislative competence, and thus should be funded by National Government.  I have personally queried the Department of Finance and I would like to assure our hon Minister that this argument is spurious.

Firstly, the amount allocated to SAAMBR is a grant, and therefore not affected by constitutional restraints.  Secondly, and far more importantly, SAAMBR is specifically structured to provide products and benefits to the people of this Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  This Association provides essential scientific expertise and decision making support to a range of this Province's departments and organisations, including:

-	The Natal Parks Board
-	KwaZulu-Natal's Department of Nature Conservation
-	KwaZulu-Natal's Department of Local Government and Housing
-	The Natal Sharks Board
-	The KwaZulu-Natal Fisheries Licensing Board
-	Portnet
-	Coastal Conservancies, and
-	Municipal associations

If I had to list the projects undertaken by SAAMBR for this Province, I would need the greater portion of today's debating time, which I unfortunately do not have.

The total cost of research work carried out by ORI over the past three years was R2,228 million in 1994, R2,229 million in 1995, and R3,156 million in 1996.  In the 1997/98 financial year these costs are due to increase to an estimated R3,7 million, which excludes the cost of SAAMBR's educational activities.  Yet the Province's pitiful contribution to ORI's research expenditure does not exceed more than 5% to 10%.  The funding for research done by ORI for this Province is mainly sourced through the revenue generated through the operation of Sea World.

Last month the main tank at Sea World burst.  The future of Durban's leaky aquarium, and hence the funding base of ORI, faces a serious threat, and this Provincial Government has done absolutely nothing to come to its aid.  From an economic perspective, one need only look to the Waterfront Development in Cape Town, to assess the huge source of revenue generated for the Western Cape Province through the operation of its new aquarium, and the tremendous tourist attraction this aquarium has proved to be.  Who would believe that Durban was the brainchild of a waterfront development?

In short, hon members, through the sterling efforts and commitment of the South African Association for Marine Biological Research, and its research arm, ORI, our Province of KwaZulu-Natal has been placed squarely on the map of international marine science and oceanographic research.  The question I pose to members of this House is, are you prepared to protect one of this Province's unique and irreplaceable assets?

HON MEMBERS:  Yes.

MISS B BARRETT:  Are you prepared to pledge your support for ORI's dedicated team of scientists who have to date fulfilled the marine research needs of some of our departments at virtually no cost?

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MISS B BARRETT:  I ask these questions to wake you up to the fact that SAAMBR cannot bear the financial magnitude of this momentous task on its own, and nor should it be expected to.

In the short term, for this financial year, our Portfolio Committee pleads for an increased minimum allocation of R500 000 to the South African Association for Marine Biological Research, and a full motivation for this request can be tabled, through the Department, to the Budget Council in this regard.

For SAAMBR's long term requirements, the Portfolio Committee requests the need for urgent negotiations between our Committee and our hon Minister, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, with the Cabinet on this Province's future support for this Association.  The justification for such negotiations would be based on the realisation that important provincial projects that require commitment for extended periods are impossible to plan and implement with the present meagre and ad hoc funding arrangements.  KwaZulu-Natal is a maritime Province with the most intensely used and developed coastline in Southern Africa.  The seas off KwaZulu-Natal provide jobs, transport, sustenance and recreation for hundreds of thousands of people.  It is our duty to protect this resource for future generations.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MISS B BARRETT:   The second issue I would like to deal with today is the Portfolio Committee's deep concern over Portnet's public response to the container handling problem in the Port of Durban, in anticipation of a final decision to be made by the Transnet Board.  The centre of controversy revolves around initial, unresearched, proposals by Portnet to build a new pier on the large existing sandbank in the bay, hereafter referred to as the 'Pier 3 Option'.

To ensure that the interests and concerns of key decision makers in the Durban Metropolitan region were taken into account, a Local Advisory Committee (LAC), was established together with Portnet Durban to reach agreement on the best solution to the container handling problem.  The composition of the LAC thus included:

-	Portnet, Durban
-	Shipping
-	Labour
-	Business
-	The Natural Environment
-	Provincial and Local Government
-	Residents and Ratepayers, and
-	Bay Users

The LAC's recommendations were forwarded to the Portnet manager of Durban, Mr Bax Nomvete, on 20 November 1996.  These recommendations were reached through complete, and I would like to repeat that, complete consensus of all LAC representatives, including Portnet.

Various options were listed, of which the southward expansion of the harbour received a strong focus.  An urgent study into this option was recommended which, if found viable, would far outweigh the potential of all other options as a long term solution to the container handling problem in the Port of Durban.  In addition, it was agreed by all LAC representatives that the "proposed Pier 3 option should not be proceeded with".

The total rejection of the Pier 3 option was based on numerous considerations.  In summary, the construction of Pier 3 would dramatically decrease the already badly diminished water surface area.  This would not only have a detrimental impact on the natural environment, but would directly foreclose on existing and potential future users, economies and subsequent job creation.

The construction of Pier 3 would have a particularly damaging effect on tourism, Durban's greatest potential income generating sector, and leisure and commercial ventures.  The development of Durban's harbour as a major tourist destination in KwaZulu-Natal stands to be threatened with this option.  In addition, ratepayers have vehemently objected to the Pier 3 option on the basis of the inevitable devaluation of their prime residential sites along the Victoria Embankment.

The Portfolio Committee was, therefore, shocked to read recent public statements issued by Durban's Port manager, Mr Bax Nomvete, where he reported that this sandbank area was the "only logical choice" and was "confident that the go-ahead will be given before the end of Transnet's financial year at the end of March".  No reference whatsoever was made to the IEM study commissioned by Portnet, or the LAC's final recommendations, which both revealed that Pier 3 was not the logical choice and will not be ideally placed.

Furthermore, Mr Nomvete's statement that the "economic necessity in developing the region vastly overcomes the environmental issues" provides evidence that he is not acquainted with the content and conclusions of his IEM study, and has not comprehended the larger economic picture of the region and the innumerable economic linkages to the Bay other than simple container handling.

In conclusion, I would like to request the full support of this House in condemning the short-sighted vision and undemocratic procedures adopted by Portnet in the management of the container handling problem in Durban's port, an issue with far-reaching economic and environmental implications for the Province in general.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Ms Barrett.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Xaba who will address the House for ten minutes.

MR V C XABA:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I am going to address myself to traditional affairs and concentrate on the codification of our Zulu customary law and the effect of that.  Then move on to address myself to environmental affairs and leave the rest to other members.

I want to say that the codification of Zulu customary law did more harm than good, in that it arrested the development of our customary law.  Our immediate action to address that problem will do more good than harm that the development of this customary law has so far suffered.

I hope that the Minister of Traditional Affairs and Environment will look into that matter because in my view it deserves his urgent attention.  If we do not do that the legacy of Shepstone will continue to haunt us.  So I hope he will activate his legal advisors to look into this matter soon - not only that, but also all other related legislations will have to be looked into by his officials.

I also want to address myself to one other aspect which I did not mention in my introduction, that of rural development.  Rural development, I treat that as development of what I term "the heart of darkness".  We need to act with speed in that regard so that our brothers and sisters who reside in those areas will now have the benefit of what their brothers and sisters get in the cities, in the urban areas, in the townships and so on.  Development cannot only be driven by this Department alone, because if we are serious about the question of development, we need to involve other Ministries and their departments as well.

So it means that a mechanism or rather a framework needs to be developed by this Ministry, that framework will seek to co-ordinate various activities, various programmes from various departments which impact on the question of development in rural areas.  I hope the Minister concerned will, in pursuance of that, establish a commission that will take as its priority the question of development in rural areas.  The commission will have to look into the question of schools, clinics, and roads in those areas, and into a number of other issues.

Hence I say that this Department going it alone will not be capable of addressing the question of rural development. Development, development, development should be a buzz word in those areas.

I also want to touch on an environmental question.  I want to say in this regard that KwaZulu-Natal has been slow in comparison with other provinces in establishing its environmental competencies.  I said that in this House last time and I want to say it again, that the appearance, the outside appearance could be interpreted by many to seem that the Provincial Government is more concerned about animals, than the health and wellbeing of those who suffer from environmental degradation outside the game reserves, especially the majority of the electorate living in dirty townships around the big cities who, for example, daily have to breathe in polluted air that makes them sick.

Last time I cited a number of such places.  I do not have to go into that again.  So if the Minister wants to look into that I would invite him to go and check Hansard.  He will check that.  I was not only one who raised that but other members of this House raised it.  The hon member Mrs Downs raised it in this debate again.  So I think we need to look into that question.  The question of environment is key.  Yes, the question of nature conservation is, but I feel that we need to address ourselves more to environmental issues.

While conservation is important, it will be shooting itself in the foot if poor people from the townships, and communities living next door to game reserves do not meaningfully benefit from integrated environmental governance.  There will be no political support for conservation initiatives if the majority of the electorate continue to live in unhealthy and polluted environments that the Provincial Government's budget shows little concern for.  Communities living nearby such polluted areas need to be looked into and also ensure that what they are exposed to is addressed with immediate effect.

Last time I made a comparison between our budget and Gauteng's budget.  Today I want to make a comparison between our budget and the Mpumalanga budget.

-	6,4% of the Mpumalanga budget goes to environmental management/pollution control
-	7,25% goes to environmental education
-	86% goes to nature conservation, that is in Mpumalanga

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR V C XABA:  Let us look at what the figures tell us in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  Only 0,5%, that is half a percent, of the environmental budget goes to pollution control.  So with a budget like this how are we meant to keep watch on industries like Thor Chemicals and others, which keep on doing such a great disservice to our environment.  Only 0,99% goes to environmental education.  When you go through the speech of the Minister you will find that he emphasised the importance of environmental education in no less than 300 words.  That is from pages 20 to 24.  But the budgetary allocation does not reflect the same importance.

As a new competency, environment was thrust upon the provinces while nature conservation has always been there.  People out there will say the Provincial Government is playing games in not wanting to allocate bigger amounts to environmental protection as it should be.

Lastly, to say that the delay in the amalgamation of the two departments is an embarrassment and reflects badly on the capacity of this Provincial Government to govern.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Xaba.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Volker who will speak for ten minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I wish to deal with certain perspectives of the role of traditional structures in the society, especially of this Province.  Of necessity I will have to touch on the political role to which the traditional structures are being subjected in national politics.

One of the members from the ANC indicated that they felt that traditional leaders should choose either between playing a role in politics or playing a singular role in traditional structures.  That is the part of the whole problem between the political division, between the IFP and the ANC.  It is not necessarily the whole of the ANC that feels that way because the Government at National level is not purely an ANC Government, it is an alliance between the ANC, the SACP, COSATU and SANCA.

The element within the ANC that is basically intent on undermining the traditional structures is the SACP element, the Communist element.  I think the hon Minister of Social Welfare has also alluded to that, and it is a fact that as long as this alliance continues, as long as the ANC is not prepared to get rid of its image of being led philosophically by the SACP, that the ANC must be part and parcel of the programme to be seen to want to destroy the traditional structures.

If at the present moment there are peace initiatives and there are attempts to camouflage the role of the SACP within the ANC that is merely a strategy.  It is not necessarily that there is a real reapproachment between the element that wishes to destroy the traditional structures.....

AN HON MEMBER:  "Rooi gevaar" again.

MR V A VOLKER:  .....and those that wish to accommodate the traditional structures.

Historically, the ~Amakhosi~ have played a vital role in the political fabric of not only the Zulu people but of traditional structures in the rest of South Africa as well, and it is totally wrong, I believe, that the National Party believes, to want to undermine the traditional structures.  It is totally wrong because in a society in transition the role of traditional structures which has historically played an important role in the whole political development, must be part and parcel of a continuation of participation in that political role.

If the normal transitional society will impact on changes then it is not a politically driven change, but then it is a society in transition that will result in changes being brought about, because we have moved into a society where there is a globalisation, where there is communication far beyond insular boundaries, where there is an economy that impacts on society, wherever they are and where all these matters have an impact on the situation.

We have the situation that at present there appears to be an insistence that hostels should be abolished and should be replaced by married quarters.  It is a known fact that many of the residents of hostels do not want the hostel system to be abolished.  They do not want married quarters because they wish to continue their link with the traditional and social structures.  They want their families to retain those links, but it also appears that the contact that is made, is made by those resident in hostels will of necessity have an impact on the situation, the linkage that they have to the economy.

The society, in an urbanised situation, can be seen as part and parcel of the background towards the rapid urbanisation that is taking place.  But it would be a total attempt to undermine the traditional structures, to want to abolish single quarter hostels purely for the sake of a social revolution.

AN HON MEMBER:  Nonsense.

MR V A VOLKER:  We in the National Party believe that there must be an evolutionary adaptation.  A society in transition will automatically have an evolutionary development.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR V A VOLKER:  You see, the Communists in the ANC are already squealing.  The situation is that there is a desire to retain economic and social links or to retain the links to traditional communities, and they want their people to retain their involvement in traditional communities.  That is why we believe that it is essential that in the policy of especially the Provincial Government, we must resist at all costs this deliberate political undermining of traditional structures.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Chairperson, will the hon member take a question?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will the hon member take a question from Mrs Cronje?

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, yes I am prepared to take the question.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Does the National Party value family life?

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes, yes, yes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, of course we value family life.  We value family life intensely but you cannot isolate family life from a whole fabric of society.  You cannot value family life as distinct from traditional society, and if we were in a situation that we had to choose ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, please I would appeal to members please to allow me an opportunity.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please!  You may proceed, Mr Volker.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, the interesting situation is if we have to value family life, why is it that the hon member who has just posed the question is settled here in this Province and her husband is situated in Cape Town?  What is the family life there?  [LAUGHTER]

AN HON MEMBER:  Silence.

MR V A VOLKER:  But I will not ask her further embarrassing questions.  I will not be diverted by the Communists within the ANC.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

AN HON MEMBER:  Do you know anything about the Communists?

MR V A VOLKER:  Yes, I know very much about the Communists.

AN HON MEMBER:  What do you know?  Do you know the constitution of the Communist?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please! Order please!

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, I would appeal to the Communists to keep their peace.  The situation is we live in a diverse society.  We live in a society where there is communal land ownership.  We live in a society where there is private land ownership.  We live in a society where there is a subsistence economy in the traditional structures and we live in a society where there is an economy-driven society.  When these two meet there will inevitably be a transition and there will be transitional changes.  To enable this to develop in an evolutionary way, it is absolutely essential that we must enable the traditional structures to play an important role in meaningful development of the traditional areas.

The amount that has been provided in this budget, namely R25,5 million in round terms is pitifully inadequate to allow a meaningful development of the traditional communities.  Traditional communities must be enabled to be developed.  There must be an involvement of the communities.  There must be an involvement of communities in leading development and genuine development.

Let me as a non-Afrikaner say that the Afrikaans-speaking people have moved through the depths of economic and social deprivation.  In the 1930s as a result of the Anglo Boer War, as a result of the international financial crisis, the depression, the drought of the 1930s, 60% of the Afrikaners were known as poor whites.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes more.

MR V A VOLKER:  They have moved through this.  There was an urbanisation process.  They have adapted to the society and they have retained their traditions within an urbanised situation, and it is essential that within the traditional communities the leaders of the communities must be enabled to participate in the planning of real meaningful development of the traditional structures.

Therefore the National Party fully supports the retention of traditional communities, of traditional structures, and appreciates that the only way that change should be brought about, is in an evolutionary way through the meaningful role of traditional leaders within their respective structures.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr MacKenzie who will address the House for eight minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE: 
TRANSLATION:  Hon Chairman, please keep the hadedahs quiet now, they are starting to make a lot of squawks on the far side.  I want to congratulate ~Inkosi~, the Minister Mbovu on the work that he has done, and the work that his Department has done.  I also want to congratulate him on this document that he has presented to us today.  We all thank him very much.

I want to say that it is clear that it appears as if ~Amakhosi~ are the people that are being pressed and made to suffer, because they are the people that are governing in their areas, and that there are others who want to govern there.  I say, why do we not ask those people that are governed by ~Amakhosi~ who they want to be governed by?

I would put my money down that the answer would come back quickly and it would show those that say there should be an election regarding who is going to govern the people in the ~Amakhosi~ areas, that they would be clearly defeated.  We have not as yet asked the people what they want, but here we talk as if we know everything.

When we ask ~Amakhosi~, we ask ~Amakhosi~ because we believe that perhaps the ~Inkosi~ does not want to be moved from his position.  The ~Inkosi~'s pay is very, very little.  It would buy a bit of tobacco.  It is equivalent to a salary of somebody who is a driver, but the ~Inkosi~ governs his people.  I want to go on to the environment and I will speak in English.  T/E

We are extremely tied up with the notion of tourism being a great income earner and this is quite correct, it is a great income earner.

I also noted with a lot of interest the words that came from the hon Dumisani Makhaye when he said "but tourists are increasing".  They may well be increasing now, hon House, but I can tell you if we continue to allow budget cuts to our main organisations that attract tourists, such as at the moment the Parks Board and DNC, then you will see the start of the fraying edges, because we are not able to maintain our essential assets that service these tourists.  When we start showing a frayed edge the word goes out: "Do not go to KwaZulu-Natal because they are on the skins.  They are losing out".

We cannot afford to let this happen.  I do not understand how we can take a 5% budget cut which in itself is now resulting in staff having limited mileage each month, and not able to do their jobs in a full comprehensive fashion.  Yet we expect our parks to attract tourists.  We are bluffing ourselves.

I am also told that the Public Service Commission can stand accused of not being proactive and this has resulted in not only this Ministry now hiring consultants but many other Ministries.  Why is it that our permanent employees in the Public Service Commission feel that they can hold to ransom the proactive work of a Ministry and have nothing said about them?

Has it not dawned on them and all of us that each time we hire a consultant we are increasing the cost to the taxpayer?  It is not a question of, as they are in sheltered employment, and therefore are immune to attack that they are now wagging the dog as the tail of it?  Who runs this Province?  Is it the Public Service Commission or is it us?  Are we to hire now all sorts of consultants to do the job because the Public Service Commission cannot or will not ngoba mhlawumbe bahola nge-hour.  [Will not cut or what, because perhaps they get paid per hour].

AN HON MEMBER:  We are the boss.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  To move on from there.  I want to applaud the new initiatives that have been taken by our conservation organisations, in particular the levies that are being levied on tourists in our game parks, because this money goes directly to the community.

In an attempt to partially answer my colleague the hon Mr Xaba, I agree that the accent on conservation should be, "Look after the people who will look after the animals who will look after conservation and then we will get our tourists".

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR M M MACKENZIE:  The newly formed community trust is to be applauded, and it is things like this that will end up in a truly proactive body.  Nick Steele, my friend of long standing is having a major battle at the moment with illness.  I would like this House to remember him in their prayers and to remember a man who has contributed so much and can still do so.

We also applaud Transfrontier Conservation which is at the top of the Drakensberg, Okhahlamba, where we are as a Province combining with Lesotho.  I believe the country of your origin, Mr Chairman.  It is to be applauded.

AN HON MEMBER:  Is the Chairman a foreigner?

MR M M MACKENZIE:  Recently at NCOP in Cape Town there was a clear proposal in order to create a national database, accessed by the Internet, for a quick exchange of data, information and ideas.  The reason being that there is an awful lot that is being done independently in each province with the net result that we may be duplicating and we may be overlooking extremely vital issues.

I would like to support this budget and the Minister and I thank you very much.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr MacKenzie.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Nel for five minutes.

MR W U NEL:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  As a society I would submit that we still have a lot to learn about how to cherish our environment, especially the bountiful one we have in this Province.  We need to act as if we cherish that environment as individuals, as political parties, as companies, organisations in the private sector, but also as a Government.  So I think the Government and Government corporations often fall far short of what is desirable.

The hon member Miss Barrett referred to the Portnet situation, the Pier 3 option and the Durban harbour, which I think is a case in point.  We find it thoroughly unacceptable from the Democratic Party's point of view, that you can have a representative multi-party, multi-organisational advisory committee, coming up with a unanimous proposal and also have an integrated environmental management report, and all of that simply to be ignored by port authorities who want to simply go and do their own thing.  They have a fairly narrow vision, a very narrow vision of life in general.  I do not think this sort of thing can be allowed to happen.  I think this House should stand united to see that something is done to rectify that unacceptable situation.

We see also in the Government allocations that there is something amiss.  We have in our budget of over 16 billion Rand, an allocation of only R3,5 million to environmental affairs and only R875 000 of that to pollution control.  It is for that reason that we as a party have suggested a specific allocation right now of R21 million of additional funds to bolster environmental law enforcement and pollution control in this Province.  If we are serious about this then we have got to do it and do it right now.

We find it unacceptable that in the annual report of the Department we read that "due to unforeseen circumstances", which we are not told quite what they are, "it has taken longer than was originally anticipated to develop the staff establishment of the Chief Directorate".  Now indirectly we hear what the problem is, because of a squabble between Government organisations to get this established.

It is unacceptable that three years down the line from the election of our Provincial Government and the 1994 elections, we are still battling to get this off the ground.  The hon Minister in his speech said that he deplored the cutback in funding and the dearth of funds available to this programme but said that:

	We have had to act responsibly and not ask for funds which we will not be able to use.  The establishment under the level of Director has still to be approved.  As has been indicated in the annual report of the Department we have scaled down the projected establishment from 162 to about 46 posts.

And all of that is still to happen.  Now that is a matter that needs to be attended to with due urgency.  We cannot proceed like this if we are to be seen as a Province that is serious about its environment.

I wish to move on to a couple of other interesting issues.  There is that of environment education, and that is something that we would applaud, but I would ask that there be a sort of a joint venture with the Parks Board and the Department of Nature Conservation which will take people in their bus loads, people who cannot afford to get to our parks.  We are trying to cultivate a love for our parks, yet if you go to a park it is those who have money and can afford it, that visit them and the others are excluded.  There are many school children who simply have never been to a park and their families cannot afford to take them there.

I appreciate it is not feasible to take two million school children to parks, but certainly we could have a programme where we select perhaps from leadership groups within the schools, prefects or whatever they have at schools nowadays, student representative council members, and take those people in their bus loads into the parks and acquaint them with the treasure that is there and that all of us should treasure.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR W U NEL:  On a local level we should also be making more of an education programme that brings Parks Board officials into schools for elective periods to simply introduce people by way of presentations, slide shows, video shows, whatever to the treasures that we have.  All of that can be done fairly cheaply, the expertise is there, the enthusiasm amongst our conservation personnel I am sure is there.  It is an easy way for us to inculcate a love for nature at a very early age.

Lastly, sir, I want to caution.  We have often had crisis management in situations such as Dukuduku.  It has been about two years now that I have heard very little about Dukuduku.  I am sure the problem has not gone away but what are we doing?  Are we doing enough to resolve the situation?

I read about the programme Gateway, but we need to move with urgency otherwise we will be overtaken by events.  Similarly St Lucia, are we doing enough in the window of opportunity to really secure a viable eco-tourism option which will even look glossier than the potential of mining it, because if we do not then in ten or 15 years, I must say, that that threat will reappear and St Lucia will once again be under threat.  I thank you, sir.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Nel.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Tarr to address the House for six minutes.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I would like to also take up on the matter of the amount of money that has been voted to environment affairs, namely the R3,5 million.

Speakers in this House have pointed out how inadequate this is in order to enable us to carry out our responsibilities in terms of the law and in terms of the Constitution.  I refer members to section 24 of the Constitution because a reading of that is actually quite a sobering thought.

This is not a problem our Province faces alone.  The other provinces have it as well.  It is a new Department and all the provinces are strapped for cash in order to carry out their functions in this regard.  I think if we are serious in this House about doing anything about it, the amount of money that has been voted is a joke, it is a joke elsewhere and it is time we actually looked at other innovative ways to deal with the question of carrying out what our duties are.

That then brings me to two matters.  The one is first of all, we need to create in a statutory sense an environmental audit profession.  The same as we have an accounting profession, where firms are required on an annual basis to be audited by auditors in order to have a clean bill of health, to protect the public and their shareholders.  Why can we not create an environmental audit profession?  We already have organisations set up of natural scientists, environmentalists.  We need to create the legal framework within which such a profession can operate and we can then require certain firms, certain industries to in fact undergo an environmental audit each year, as part of the whole process, let us say the accounting process.

There will be complaints from these firms that this adds an additional cost to their cost of operation, but the reality is that many of these firms are already through externalities imposing a cost on society as a whole.  So that is my first plea.  Can we not look at legislation to in fact empower an environmental audit profession?

Going hand in hand with that is the setting up of an environment protection agency.  We could create a statutory body, by an Act of Parliament, which would in fact give the EPA the responsibility of carrying out the bits of environmental legislation that are scattered throughout some 50 bits of legislation in this country.  It could be that statutory body's function to oversee that environmental legislation is actually carried out and is adhered to.  The EPA could then make use of the environmental audit profession to do their job for them.

The reality is we are not going to be able to create a State department with the personnel, with the skills available to in fact do the job for us.  So if we are serious about it, we need to be looking at innovative ways to get this job done by the private sector, setting up an audit profession that do precisely that.  An EPA would involve some State money but nothing of the order which would be required, if the State were to carry out the whole function itself.

I hope that members of the Committee and the Minister will give this matter serious thought.  I am hoping that it will be possible in the next day or two, to move a motion in this House, requesting that the Portfolio Committee in co-operation with the Minister, and in discussion with the Minister should launch an investigation into setting up an EPA, and hand in hand with the EPA an environmental audit profession.  I think that would go a long way towards dealing with the myriad of problems which we have in the environmental issues today.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Tarr.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mrs Cronje to address the House for 13 minutes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Chairperson.  Chairperson, I am proud to take part in the most important debate of the sitting, namely the Environment debate.  However, I feel compelled very briefly to respond to the hon Mr Volker.

Hostels were brought into being by the former National Party Government and have nothing to do whatsoever with the traditional way of life.  That is an insult to the Zulu people, who value family and communal life above all.  Hostels were the NP's effort to bring about influx control.  That was to keep black South Africans out of large parts of their own country under appalling conditions.  I am shocked that the hon Mr Volker is still trying to justify the unjustifiable, and I submit that he should feel ashamed.

If I now can come to the topic of my discussion.

MR V A VOLKER:  ~Ja~ you had better because you know very little about the former one.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I am starting with a vote of thanks and certainly not to the National Party.  I would like to start with a vote of thanks.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear Mr Nel who is rising on a point of order.

MR W U NEL:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman.  I mean interjections are fine but is it in order for members to switch on their microphones in order to make interjections?

MR V A VOLKER:  It is the only way they can be recorded in Hansard.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Chairperson.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I actually want to rule that members must not switch on their microphones when they interject.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Chairperson.  I would like injury time because I have a lot of important things to say about the environment.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, on a point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can I hear Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I suggest the hon Mrs Cronje be given extra time because the DP and NP are fighting the battles on our time.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I have stopped the clock here so when she continues she will continue with her full time.


MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you very much.  I would like to start with a vote of thanks.  

1.	VOTE OF THANKS

I am handing over Chairpersonship of this very important Committee to my dear colleague John Jeffery.  I think members here might know him as a lawyer/warlord or a warlord/lawyer but I know a different side to his personality, and I hand over the reins with the greatest of confidence that he will make a great success of it.

I would like to thank the hon Minister and the Department for the relationship and the spirit in which we have done business.  I would also like to thank the Portfolio Committee, each and every member for the support that they have given me and I think for the support that we have given to each other.  I would like to thank the hon Mr Rajbansi as a member of this House for the support that he has given us in the issue of the fishermen, he has attended our Committees, he has helped us to intervene, negotiate and so on.  You are not getting rid of me, I am remaining on as a full member of the Committee, and I will be as enthusiastic as before, participate in all the activities of the Committee.

2.	CONCERN

Now I would like to put a concern on the table and I think the fact that I had to respond to the hon Mr Volker in this debate actually illustrates my concern.  Environment is such an important Department and such an important subject that it should stand on its own two feet.

We have a situation where it has been coupled ever since this House began with traditional affairs.  We now have an even worse situation, and I wish that the hon Premier were here because when he reshuffled the Cabinet he added Safety and Security to the large burden that the hon Minister is already carrying.

Now you have a situation where you have got three portfolios under one Minister, who for the best will in the world cannot do justice to it because he simply does not have the time.  I am not saying this without sympathy for his plight.  Environment Affairs is now sandwiched between the police and the ~Amakhosi~.  I think that is a major problem.  The Traditional Affairs, Environment and Safety and Security need to be departments in their own right because they are all very important.

It actually makes one think.  In this Province the environment is not given the priority or is not the priority that it should be.  I know frogs do not vote and if people think about the environment as frogs and elephants and a few crickets here and there then you will treat it in this manner, but people do vote and the environment is about people.  The environment is about people and let us start giving it the prominence that it deserves.



3.	AMALGAMATION

I want to go on to the amalgamation issue.  I do not only feel like a stuck record, I think I am now a stuck record.  We still have not effected the amalgamation.  I am, however, heartened by the comments of the hon Minister, that the legislation will be before Cabinet in the near future.  I can only commend him for that.  Let us make that a reality.

I am on record in my capacity as Chairperson of the Committee that we will have public hearings on the proposed legislation.  I am sure that the Committee will honour that commitment because this issue is of paramount importance to the public, many stakeholders.  The communities, conservation agencies, the private sector do not forget our cultural heritage.  We need our museums there, we need our people who are experts on archaeology there.

4.	MAPUTOLAND NATURE RESERVE

I now want to come to an issue that the Committee had dealt with extensively and spent a lot of time, money and effort on and that is the Maputoland Nature Reserve.  I have here with me some press cuttings.  These appeared in the Mail and Guardian.  I do not want to waste time on the dates.  Headline:

	We could decide at events like these who would live and who would die.  On the beach swilling beer and drinking Klipdrift and Coke that is where the members of South Africa's most notorious death squad, in between their back slapping and buffoonery decided who lives and who dies.  Vlakplaas.

I have another cutting.

	~~~apartheid~~'s~ elite death squad at play.  Vlakplaas members and friends cavort on the beach in KwaZulu-Natal.

I want to just quote briefly from another cutting.  This appeared in the Sunday Tribune:

	Wild times.  Members of the Vlakplaas unit and their families at Black Rock, the police camp on the Maputoland coast, a proclaimed nature conservation area.  A hard hitting television documentary on the Vlakplaas unit, ~~apartheid~~'s elite death squad, will reveal that Black Rock, the police camp on the Maputoland coast, was widely used for team building expeditions which were often drunken orgies.

My concern is that all of this relates to the Maputoland Nature Conservation area which falls under the jurisdiction of this House.  Another legacy of the National Party.  The Minister is fully aware of this.  We have briefed him fully.  In fact he has accompanied us on a visit to these areas.

I want to plead on behalf of the Portfolio Committee because we did this again as a team, that we place an immediate moratorium on the further use of these facilities, so that a full investigation can be launched.

There are also areas in this very same reserve, occupied by private concerns such as the Chamber of Mines.  They have a PTO, and this is in a public report tabled at the Portfolio Committee, extensively discussed by the committee and extensively discussed with the Minister.  These PTOs were given to a few select individuals.  You and I and the ordinary people out there cannot do the same.  We cannot get permission to occupy in the Maputoland Nature Reserve.

I would like to know why four or five or six individuals have rights that other people do not have.  Again I plead that we place an immediate moratorium on the further use of such facilities pending a full investigation.  For me it is a moral issue, it is a major moral issue.  I think it was for the subcommittee that dealt with it a major moral issue.

You have one of the most beautiful places in the world, a conservation area.  Communities had been removed from parts of that conservation area to enable previous regimes to declare it a conservation area.  Now please do not interpret my comments as being anti-conservation.  The moral issue for me is; you remove communities, you remove local inhabitants from areas where they were sometimes perhaps born, where they had lived.  You put in its place drunken people from Vlakplaas where they decide who can live and who can die under the Government of the hon member who spoke earlier about the hostels.  We as a Province cannot allow this to continue.  It is immoral.  It is unacceptable.

The Portfolio Committee has a video tape which we have shown to the Minister and the DDG and some other officials.  It is a public document.  We have photographs in our possession.  I will propose at our next Committee meeting that we arrange a viewing for all members of this House who would like to see that video tape and who would like to see the photographs.

5.	PUBLIC ACCESS

I also now want to turn to the issue of public access to conservation areas.  Many members have made the point.  Now if I must express a personal opinion and I make it clear it is a personal opinion, I feel strongly that one should distinguish between gate fees or entry fees paid by international visitors and entry fees paid by taxpayers in this country, by us.  You might actually want a further distinction under the latter category, namely communities adjacent to the parks and I want to request our conservation agencies to look into this.  To me again it seems unfair that people who come from outside pay exactly the same entry fees and exactly the same accommodation costs as us the taxpayers who actually make these facilities available.  I think there can be a further sub-category and that is for people living adjacent to these parks.

My further concern as far as public access is concerned, I think there is a delicate balance in any conservation area between destroying the very environment that you are conserving and public access, and of course we must maintain that balance because if we destroy it, there is nothing for us to go to.  There is nothing to see, and I think various people have made that point.

I also think that it is unacceptable that you have vast tracts of land, and I want to give as an example Tembe Elephant Park, a vast tract of land.  To the best of my knowledge it has eight or ten visitor beds, not cottages, beds.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes more.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thanks.  I want to pose the question.  We are paying to conserve Tembe Elephant Park and I think so we should.  Do not get me wrong.  But why are there only, and as I say I am speaking slightly under correction, but the answer is somewhere in the region of eight or ten visitor beds in that park.  Why can people not go there?  Why have we not developed it?

The hospitality industry in some of our conservation parks is actually going a very long way and I think Hluhluwe is a good example, Itala is a good example, going a very long way to subsidising the conservation effort.  We should look into these issues.

6.	BUDGET

Then on the budget I want to just simply reiterate the concern expressed by members.  We simply do not have enough money.  The kind of logic that I have never been able to understand is we are told something like this.  We cannot do the job because we do not have the money, but we cannot get the money because we are not doing the job yet or we have not done the job.  I need the Finance Committee to explain this to me because it is not the kind of logic that makes sense to me.

I want to also congratulate the Department and the hon Minister, that with limited funds this Province has actually led in many ways.  The environmental policy process.  CONNEPP process, that is the National environmental policy and our own KwaZulu-Natal waste management policy process.  The reason why we could do it is that the hon Minister agreed that we involve civil society.  He backed the Portfolio Committee fully.  He made available to us whatever resources were available and whatever staff were available.  We played a very leading part in the CONNEPP process and we are playing a very leading part in devising our own waste management policy.  I want to commend everybody involved, departmental officials and the Minister for that.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Cronje.  Finally, I wish to call upon the hon Minister ~Inkosi~ Ngubane to respond.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I think first and foremost let me thank all those who contributed to my budget speech.  I would like to thank them for their constructive contributions and some valuable criticism where it was necessary to do that.

I can say, I am very sorry that the hon lady Mrs Cronje is no longer going to be the Chairperson of my Portfolio Committee.  We had a good working relationship with the lady, including the whole Portfolio Committee, but at the same time I am happy that she is not going away, she will be with us going on with the Portfolio Committee.  At the same time let me thank the new hon member who is to be the Chairperson of my Portfolio Committee, the hon Mr J Jeffery.  You all know the gentleman here, we are going to be working well with him.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs):  No, truly speaking, Mr Jeffery is not a problem to me.  I am used to him, he is used to me.  Therefore we are going to promote that good working relationship between him and my Department.

I understand, perhaps starting with the last speaker, that environment has not been given a priority.  Yes, of course the hon member is quite correct.  We need funds in order to develop environmental issues.  I must remind all the hon members all the time that environment was a National competence.  Therefore when it comes to the Province really to make a beginning, to lay a foundation we need funds.  We cannot start from the air.  That is the problem we are facing but I think the message has gone to the Finance Committee, it has gone to the members of this Legislature.  I think we will be sitting together with the Portfolio Committee with the aim to persuade perhaps the Provincial Government, to give more funds in future for this type of an issue.

Yes, of course as far as the amalgamation process is concerned, the hon member, the last speaker here is correct, but as I have said in my budget speech, I do not think I should go further than that.

As far as the area of Maputoland, the camps by the police, by SANDF members, by Chamber of Mines, Department of Agriculture, Department of Health, all those things that we saw there, we did try to address the issue, but then when the new Premier came across, I did give a report to him.  I am going to persuade him that we meet with the Portfolio Committee, so that we find a way out or a way forward, as how to solve the problem of that area.  In fact working to that moratorium as the hon member has proposed.

As far as public access is concerned to our parks, I agree with you, but we should be sitting down with the Department including the Portfolio Committee, to strategise as to what to do in order to help the local people so that they are not on par with tourists coming from outside our country.  I think that is a matter to be addressed.

When I go to another member, the hon Mr Tarr.  The matter of trying to create an environmental audit profession, I am not running away from that, it is a matter to be discussed.  I think I am going to open a platform, as I have said, between my Department and the Portfolio Committee, so that we discuss that and see how to address it and also again with the statutory body, to oversee that environmental legislation is carried out.  We are going to be addressing that.

When it comes to the hon member Mr Nel, he was worried about the Portnet situation which ignored some of the recommendations or all recommendations, in fact he was not the first one to say that, other members also referred to that.  The same issue will be addressed by my Department and the Portfolio Committee.  We must, after this sitting of our Legislature, convene a meeting to discuss this and see what to do to persuade Portnet to follow the other way, which we think is positive.

I do agree with the hon member, that the money should be increased as far as pollution control is concerned.  It will depend upon the Provincial Department then to see whether that is done or not, because fortunately now the cake is to be subdivided by the Provincial Government, no more at National level.  Therefore it will depend upon this hon House to agree on better funding for environmental affairs.

The matter of taking children by buses to parks.  Again it will be a matter to be discussed.  We must not try to create a precedent, when people would be saying, especially politicians, that we have taken schools from a certain area because such a school has a principal who is ANC, who is IFP.  You know, things like that will crop up once we start on that issue.  I think we must sit down and then discuss the issue to find a way out.

As far as the hon member Mr MacKenzie is concerned, he is correct to say whatever we do in the form of rural development or rural participation, we must involve those people concerned in rural areas as to what to do and what not to do.

Yes, tourism.  If we allow budget cuts that will discourage tourism in our protected areas, unless my Department is well funded, it will be impossible to do better than what we are doing at present.

To prove that, because of the shortage of funds, we might even close some of the parks that we had to run before.  Therefore we thought it was unwise to put more monies into new aspects like that one of environment to the detriment of the old structure that has been there all the time, that is the side of conservation, as I am saying, that even if we have given environment such a small sum of money for pollution but still there is the threat of closing some of the parks just because of the shortage of money in our Department.

As far as the hon Mr Volker is concerned, when he talked about traditional leaders to choose whether to be involved in politics or not.  I think that is correct.  Even the hon Prince did mention that and other members.  I have said that even to the hon President of our country, Dr Mandela when he first said ~Amakhosi~ must not be involved in politics, even to His Majesty the King, I have said that personally to him when he was talking about this issue.  That we as ~Amakhosi~, we are prepared to have a meeting where the President will be present, His Majesty the King will be there and some of the ~Amakhosi~ will be there so that we sit down around the table and then discuss the issue.

We must discuss the issue because we have some reservations as far as this issue is concerned.  Therefore, we do not feel at home if our South Africans, especially the blacks, all of a sudden come along and say, "No, no, we are out".  Just to tell us like that as if we are children.  Even children are protected by the Bill of Rights today.  You know, we are treated as if we are just children, who are being told what to do and what not to do.  I do not think that is good, especially to ~Amakhosi~.  Because ~Amakhosi~ are your fathers, all of you here.

The matter of hostels, I do not think I will go into that matter now.  Let us just shelve it for the time being.

When going to the hon member Mr Xaba, who was talking about customary law which did a lot to put down our people.  Yes, there are some of the things that need to be changed, or some of the laws that operated before, which need to be amended.  We as a Department are busy amending some of these laws and regulations.  Therefore something will be done to find a way of looking into these matters.

As far as rural development is concerned.  Yes, that must be done.  I agree that it should not only be the Department of Traditional Affairs which should be involved in rural development, even Local Government under the hon Minister Mr Miller, the Department of Agriculture, Welfare and Pensions, Public Works and others.  The notion of the coming together of departments or forming a certain committee, which will deal with rural development is really very much appreciated.

Again there was mention of the comparison between Mpumalanga and KwaZulu as far as environmental and nature conservation issues are concerned.  I can say in fact it is unfair to compare Mpumalanga and KwaZulu because if you come to KwaZulu Province you will find that the protected areas, our parks are much larger when comparing it to the Mpumalanga Province.  Therefore, I do not think it is fair to make that comparison, when we are really not to be compared with Mpumalanga because of our size.

When it comes to the hon member, my sister over there, Miss Barrett.  I think you are quite correct to put your case on the marine funding of the Oceanographic Research Institute.  Yes, sometimes it should be funded by the National Government but the Province is prepared to do its best towards funding this Oceanographic Research Institute.  I agree that we must prepare a business plan because we know that there is money in the Premier's Department.  If we could prepare a good business plan which will include that, definitely perhaps we would be in a better position to motivate for that.

When it comes to the hon member Mr J Jeffery who spoke about the threat of the increase of the population, especially in environmental areas.  Yes, it is just like that.  He also spoke about the balance and development.  He also spoke about the involvement of local people so that the people are not only workers but to benefit.

In my budget speech I did mention that, how the participation or the involvement of communities are to be done in our parks.  In fact it is not a thing to be done, it is a thing that has already started.  Therefore we are doing something with the aim of addressing that situation.  Our people are no longer just workers but we are in partnership with some of the people around or adjacent to our protected areas.

When it comes to the hon Minister Mtetwa.  He is correct to say democracy started a long time ago in traditional structures.  I can remember when we were attending that international conference on traditional leaders in Southern Africa, the hon member Mr Nel, put that question to those professors who were there, to ask me to explain why we say the structure of ~Amakhosi~ is more democratic than any other structure, not only in KwaZulu-Natal, not only in South Africa, but in the whole world.  Then I had to explain the whole situation, because we are serious and very concerned as far as that issue is concerned.  We as ~Amakhosi~, are not new to democracy.

We started democracy when all of you were not there.  It is where we started democracy.  By the time you were there you found us in democracy.  Therefore be quite sure that we are there for democracy.  As far as development in rural areas is concerned, we have never said no.  The only problem with politicians is that whenever they visit our rural areas they just tell us, as I have said before.  We want people with whom we can sit down and discuss issues.

At the same time the Minister was correct to say people will keep on blaming rural areas for development and other things.  I can tell you that even during the KwaZulu Government time, I can remember when I was still deputising for the former Premier, as Deputy Minister of Health in his Department.  During that time, it was in 1988, we had in rural areas more than 200 clinics which had already been built in 1988.  How many are there now in 1997?  Therefore development was there.

In fact it started some time ago, but the Minister said just go to Edendale because some of the people thought that without title deeds people are not liable for development.  Just go to Edendale as he said.  Those people who were having such title deeds some yes, in memoriam.  There is nothing there in the form of development.  You even become lazy to go there.  If you visit Edendale just once, then you do not feel like going there for the second time.  There is no development.  But people will just concentrate on rural areas to put the perception that ~Amakhosi~ are responsible for the lack of development in rural areas.  Hence that is not so.

I agree with my sister, the hon member Mrs Downs, for all that she said as far as pollution and other things are concerned.  Some of these things that you have said, my sister, we are going to be meeting together with my Portfolio Committee and Department and try to address these concerns that you have put across.

When it comes to the hon Prince G L Zulu, the hon Prince responsible for Welfare and Pension, I agree also with him, because he was talking about getting experience from neighbouring countries where people got rid of ~Amakhosi~ and then there were problems even here in South Africa.  We must be serious as far as this matter of ~Amakhosi~ is concerned.

If we say ~Amakhosi~ should not be members of regional councils, ~Amakhosi~ should not be members of Provincial Parliament and National Parliament you know, this is a process to any individual who can think or write.  This is a process.  Those people who are starting a certain process of getting rid of ~Amakhosi~ because if you say ~Amakhosi~ must not take part in politics.  Where does that start?  Where does it end?

If people talk about my land, where I am as an ~Inkosi~, and then you say the ~Inkosi~ must shut his mouth or her mouth and only be responsible for traditional and customary laws then you know, as I am saying it is a process.  After ~Amakhosi~ have agreed to do that, after five to ten years the people will come and say what are ~Amakhosi~ doing because by that time ~Amakhosi~ will be doing nothing.  Then what are ~Amakhosi~ doing and their answer will be, "Nothing.  They are just doing nothing.  They are sitting there.  They are wasting the Government's money".  It is when the proposal will come along to abolish ~Amakhosi~.  Therefore that is why we are saying this is a process towards abolishing ~Amakhosi~.  We must not agree to that.

I can ask the hon members on the other side, to side with me or to side with my Party, not to agree to that, so that even if we go to Cape Town to put this to our NCOP meeting, then you agree with us not to abolish the ~Amakhosi~.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Traditional and Environmental Affairs):  I think by so doing I am answering the hon ~Inkosi~ Mlaba for what he has said.  As far as the Ingonyama Trust Act is concerned, I know that members are hungry.  One of them is just saying that he is hungry but I cannot do otherwise, I must reply.  As far as the Ingonyama Trust Act is concerned, Ingonyama is not the only man to decide what to do in the Ingonyama Trust Act.  There is a board there.

What has happened is that the ~Ingonyama~ is only the Chairperson of the ~Ingonyama~ Trust.  Therefore he does not do anything on his own because there will be a board which is going to be appointed.

TRANSLATION:  The King gets paid money.  You know yourself that the King gets paid.

I would also agree with the hon member, Father Mkhwanazi, when he said that Ubukosi indeed is not something that came here with the whites.  When they arrived Ubukosi was already here.  ~Amakhosi~ must always be there, even though ~Amakhosi~ are unhappy about the provisions of the new Constitution and how those provisions impact on them.

I will move on from there and go to the hon member Mr Gwala.  He too made mention about this, and he even complimented me on the speech that I gave at the conference of traditional leaders at Umtata, because there were a lot of people.  T/E

We had professors there who were misleading other people.  For instance, one of the professors said during the ~~apartheid~~ time, ~Amakhosi~ were selling land to individuals.  He even went on and said here in this Province some of the ~Amakhosi~ sold land to individuals.  He even went on to quote the former President of Bophuthatswana as somebody who also sold land to individuals.

Then I stood up and asked who?  If he could tell me only one ~Inkosi~ in this Province of KwaZulu-Natal, who has ever sold his land, to whom, for how much, and when that was?  Then the professor could not answer me.  Those are the misleading statements that are put across by certain professors, with the aim to mislead our people against traditional leadership.  I went on to say, even if Dr Mangope did ever do that, I said he did it in his capacity as the President of Bophuthatswana, not in his capacity as an ~Inkosi~ of the area.  Therefore those are some of the things that are usually there.

When we come to the hon member Mr Rajbansi, I think he is correct.  He also mentioned the problem of the Oceanographic Research Institute, the funding there and everything.  As I have said, we are going to address the issue.  He also mentioned the issue of traditional and Local Government in India.  In fact, I was tempted to ask for permission from the Premier, to visit India to see what is really going on as far as that is concerned.

I also agree with the hon member ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe with what he said, as well as the hon member Mr Nel, and the hon member Mr Mtetwa, who is one of the members of my Portfolio Committee. Hon members ~Inkosi~ Mathaba, ~Inkosi~ Khawula, Advocate Madondo and also Mr Redinger, because of time constraints, I do not think I will be going into detail as far as their contributions are concerned.

Let me thank my Portfolio Committee for the role that it played during the past year, in trying to promote environmental structures in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  Also thanking my Department, especially the Departmental Secretary Mr Raubenheimer, thanking also Dr Hughes on the side of Natal Parks Board, thanking also Mr Steele who he is not well, I wish him a speedy recovery.

In short, let me thank all of you, especially the members who have ably debated my policy speech, and also thank the hon House for allowing me to put these few words in the form of a reply.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane.  We have reached the end of the debate, but as we agreed, we are not going to vote on the matter.  We will vote at the end of all the votes.

Before we break for lunch, there is just one small announcement.  I have been requested to inform members of the Disciplinary Committee, that the meeting which was supposed to be held during the lunch break, is not going to be held.  It has been adjourned till further notice.  So you can have your lunch and do not worry about that meeting.  The House adjourns till half past two.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE SUSPENDED AT 13:28
	RESUMED AT 14:37

VOTE 9: DEPARTMENT OF SAFETY AND SECURITY

THE CHAIRPERSON:  We are now going to debate the vote on Safety and Security and I wish to call upon the hon Minister Ngubane to address the House.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Safety and Security):  Mr Chairman and the hon members of this House.  My predecessor, Dr F T Mdlalose, on 20 February 1997, tabled the Annual Report of my Department.  I am sure that all the members are in possession of a copy thereof.

Mr Chairman, please allow me to express a word of thanks to the hon Dr F T Mdlalose.  Charles Tawd has said:

	The race advances only by the extra achievements of the individual.

Dr Mdlalose was such an individual whose devotion and sacrifices made causes to become of value.  My vision is to commit myself to the same devotion and sacrifice for this Portfolio.

Crime dominates to an unprecedented degree the concerns of all South Africans today.  Not only does crime erode the very fabric of our society but it is also one of the biggest disincentives for investment in this country.

Action against crime has to be led by Government at all levels, and such action must be based on a policy, adequate resources and a strategy that decentralise the responsibility for crime prevention within a firm set of guidelines.

It is my wish, Mr Chairman, that in tabling my budget speech today it will also serve to stimulate debate that will contribute to the process of finding some cure for the very malady that is causing such suffering in our communities.

CRIME AND VIOLENCE

In order to inform this House as to the prevalent crime trends in KwaZulu-Natal, I have deemed it prudent to categorise the crimes that affect our communities most, into four main groups, namely:

1.	SOCIAL FABRIC CRIMES
	That is rape, crimes against children, assault with intent to do grievous bodily harm and common assault.

2.	VIOLENT CRIMES
	That is murder, attempted murder, crime against international tourists, armed robbery, taxi violence and attacks against the security forces.

3.	PROPERTY CRIMES
	That is housebreaking, attacks on farms and smallholdings, stock theft and cross-border stock theft, firearms, theft of motor vehicles and theft out of motor vehicles.

4.	COMMERCIAL CRIMES
	That is fraud, stolen cards and buying association vouchers, financial institutions and insurance and administration of justice.

I have included in my budget speech statistics that compare the incidence of crime in the categories that I have mentioned.

Figures are reflected for the period of October to December 1996 in comparison with figures for January to March 1997.  I am indebted to the Crime Information Management Centre of the SAPS for this submission.  As the submission is comprehensive I will not attempt to go over the entire submission save to highlight certain areas of concern.  As can be noted, the incidence of rape and attempted rape has shown an increase, and it is alarming to note that out of a total figure of 2 075 cases reported, 1 076 were in respect of females, children in the age group of 0 to 17.

We are also aware that these figures do not represent the full picture as many victims are still unwilling to report cases of sexual violence to the police.

The second area that is of concern is the incidence of attacks on farms and smallholdings.  Attacks on farms are on the increase.  It is alarming to note that there was an increase of 50% over the comparative periods.

On 23 April 1997 a joint Portfolio Committee meeting with Safety and Security and Agriculture was held to discuss this concern.  A further meeting is planned for later this month.

An area of great concern to me, and I submit to every member of this House, is the attacks on police officials.  The wanton killing of police officials and ostensibly with impunity can no longer be tolerated and we must all endeavour to see that those who kill police officials pay a fitting price.

However, the statistics that are submitted also reveal features which must give us some reason for optimism.

There has been a decrease of more than 9% in the number of murder cases reported, a decrease of 2% in armed robbery cases, and here I am happy to report that business against crime has donated 11 BMW cars to combat vehicle hijackings.  The police drivers of these cars are at present undergoing a special course and the vehicles will be operational very soon.

The incidence of taxi violence has also shown a decrease of 32% in the number of people killed.  This is mainly as a result of stepped up preventative measures at taxi ranks and continuing meetings between taxi associations and the police aimed at reducing conflict in the taxi industry.

Similarly, the initiative must be taken with regard to conflict resolution where conflict arises in communities.  What is needed is a more active part by role-players in combatting faction fighting.  The police service needs to play a more proactive role together with the peace structures in involving the communities to ensure a peaceful co-existence.

There are two issues that will have an impact on Safety and Security during 1997/1998.  The first is the National Crime Prevention Strategy.

NATIONAL CRIME PREVENTION STRATEGY (NCPS)

As reflected in an earlier report to this Legislative Assembly, arrangements for the Provincial summit in respect for KwaZulu-Natal are on track and I am hopeful that the summit will be held within the next two months.  The Provincial Secretariat for Safety and Security has been assigned the responsibility to co-ordinate Provincial inputs to the summit.

One example of the practical benefits that will emerge from the NCPS is the border control initiative.  On 30 April 1997 the National Cabinet adopted recommendations that will significantly tighten border control in South Africa.  Some of the important aspects are:

*	The number of land border posts through which bulk commercial goods may be imported or exported will be reduced from 52 to only 19.  These 19 border posts will be fully staffed and upgraded according to strict criteria and re-organised to meet strict National standards.

*	The number of international airports authorised to clear flights in or out will be reduced from 36 to 8.

*	The country's seven international seaports will all remain open to international traffic but the quality of border control at the ports will be improved.

In respect of KwaZulu-Natal, only Golela border post and Durban International Airport will be open for commercial imports and exports.

It is interesting of course to note that of the 95 current designated border posts in South Africa, only 20 are staffed for customs purposes.  South Africa also has 36 designated international airports compared to just seven in the United States and four in France.

SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICE PRIORITIES AND OBJECTIVES 1997/1998

The second issue is the police plan for 1997 and of course 1998.  Announcing the South African Police Service priorities and objectives for 1997/1998 in Parliament on 17 April 1997, the National Minister for Safety and Security asserted that 1997 will be the Year of Service Delivery for the South African Police.

It is one of the main objectives of my Ministry to ensure that delivery as far as Safety and Security is concerned, is indeed effected within the limitations of the Provincial mandate provided by the Constitution.  As Provincial MECs for Safety and Security we need more powers to be assigned to us to enable us to interact with our communities and the police service to formulate effective strategies to prevent and combat crime.

I also wish to point out that for the first time in the design of the police plan, and in accordance with Chapter 11 of the 1996 Constitution relating to Provincial responsibility, a monitoring plan formulated by the civilian secretariats at both National and Provincial level, will be aligned to the police plan.  This will greatly assist the provinces to evaluate needs and priorities for the provinces.

It is my pleasure to also table the KwaZulu-Natal priorities and objectives for 1997/1998 for the South African Police Service.

COMMUNITY POLICING

The transformation of policing in South Africa can also in many respects be translated into a transformation of the nature of accountability.  The community who are the direct recipients of service must be able to hold the service providers accountable.  This must be done through the system of community police fora and boards at local level.

The monitoring of service delivery in respect of priorities and objectives of the service will be co-ordinated by the Provincial civilian secretariat through this system.

Five area boards have already been established.  To wit, Durban, Midlands, Umfolozi, ~Ulundi~ and Umzimkulu and it is envisaged that the remaining area board, namely Tugela, will be constituted in the near future.  Once the six area boards are in place we can proceed with the establishment of a Provincial board.

This brings me to the question of funding of community policing structures in this Province.  It is common knowledge that Provincial funds are available.  The allocation of funds to fora and boards is done according to criteria as prescribed in the Police Act of 1995, section 18(1) of the Act No 68 of 1995.  Appended to my report is an explanation on funds allocated during the 1996/1997 financial year.  Once the boards have been constituted I will examine proposals to allocate the funds to the boards for allocation to their respective forums.

PROVINCIAL SECRETARIAT FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY

The Secretariat was only established in 1996 and it is therefore still in its formative stage of development.  Its core function is to provide capacity for my Ministry and the monitoring of various activities within the Department.

The functions of the Secretariat are prescribed in section 3(1) of the Police Act of 1995 which stipulates that the Secretariat shall:

1.	Advise the Minister in the exercise of his or her powers and the performance of his or her duties and functions.
2.	Perform such functions as the Minister may consider necessary or expedient to ensure civilian oversight of the service.
3.	Promote democratic accountability and transparency in the service.
4.	Promote and facilitate participation by the service in the reconstruction and development programme.
5.	Provide the Minister with legal services and advice on constitutional matters.
6.	Provide the Minister with communication, support and administrative services.
7.	Monitor the implementation of policy and directions issued by the Minister and report to the Minister thereon.
8.	Conduct research into any policing matter in accordance with the instructions of the Minister and report to the Minister thereon.
9.	Perform such functions as may from time to time be assigned to the Secretariat by the Minister; and
10.	Evaluate the functioning of the service and report to the Minister thereon.

A key role which the Secretariat has been assigned is that of co-ordinating the activities of the National Crime Prevention strategy.  This includes the task of ensuring co-ordination between my Department and the other departments who form part of the lead agencies in the NCPS.

The Secretariat will also play a major role in the monitoring of the Provincial priorities and objectives for 1997/1998 of the SAPS.

The amount of R2 846 000 has been budgeted for my Department for the 1997/1998 financial year.  The amount of R1 651 000 has been allocated to the civilian Secretariat.

INDEPENDENT COMPLAINTS DIRECTORATE (ICD)

The ICD as an independent body has commenced its work as from 1 April 1997.  The ICD will be responsible for ensuring that cases in which misconduct on the part of police officers is alleged, are investigated speedily, fairly and thoroughly.  Due to budgetary constraints the ICD will for the moment focus primarily on cases in which civilians have died in custody as a result of police action.  Therefore the police members should be aware that there is that body now which is in existence if there was perhaps any playing around with people in custody.  I think it should stop now.

Other complaints will generally be referred to the SAPS but will be closely monitored by the ICD.

PROVINCIAL PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY

The Portfolio Committee continue to play an active role as far as Safety and Security is concerned and I express the hope, that I will enjoy a constructive and productive relationship with them.

CONCLUSION

To bring about stability and thereby a sense of security in our communities; to restore confidence in our law enforcing agencies and respect for the rule of law is the objective of this House.

Members of this House must note and carry forward to their constituencies that we will do our work.  We will do what is necessary to combat crime.  This will involve more roadblocks as we have already started, which have so far been very successful, and search operations and such activities that are deemed fit from time to time.

My Department has pledged itself to these objectives and with that commitment, Mr Chairman and the hon House, I end my first budget speech as MEC for Safety and Security to this hon House and request the hon House to consider this budget.  I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Bheki Cele who will address the House for 25 minutes, which is 15 minutes as Chairman of the Portfolio Committee and an additional ten minutes. 

MR B H CELE:  Mr Chairperson, thanks very much.  I hope one will be in the position to contribute towards the better policing of the Province, hoping by doing so one will have to tell no lies and claim no easy victories.  It is then when you begin to do things that are proper.  It can be such a dangerous thing to claim easy victories and begin to tell lies.

As it has been explained, as the Chair of the Portfolio Committee, the Committee that has worked tirelessly and the Committee that has worked endlessly, started when it divided itself, it has had its ups and downs, divided itself into subcommittees to make sure that its work is easier.  One or a few of the subcommittees that have come out of this Committee, is the subcommittee on appointments, the subcommittee on hot spots or hot areas and the subcommittee on community policing fora.  Some of these subcommittees, when I begin to expatiate people begin to understand how much effort they have put in.

This Committee including its subcommittee during the previous financial year had 34 meetings and made some significant interventions in terms of violence and in terms of appointments and community fora, as I have said.

It will also be noted that, the Ministry that this Committee works with, has changed four times.  One Minister had the bad luck of not meeting the Committee until he vacated his position as the Minister of policing the Province.  That has not given this Committee enough chance to have access to the Ministers but is quite promising with the present Minister, that we will be having a warm working relationship that will be frequent and regular.

This year alone this Committee had already held 14 meetings, including subcommittees.  We have also had a joint meeting as a Committee with Agriculture trying to address the problem of security in the farming communities.  Note farm communities, all farm communities regardless of who is there.  Soon we will be having a meeting with the Education Portfolio Committee and Safety and Security to address the security at schools.  I hope the Minister of Education will be very happy with this, that we are beginning to have those joint meetings to address that kind of problem, not just to make it an education baby, this kind of problem.

We will further explore all other relationships with all other committees, where we can make inputs to make sure that we contribute to the better policing of our beautiful Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

Definitely, looking at the priorities that are both Nationally and Provincially as dovetailed, we will have to put in more effort.  It is true that political violence has declined in the Province.  Some people would not like to agree with that, but that is a matter of fact.  Some of us, colleagues in this House and the other House, we have stood at open graves weekend after weekend, and that has declined a little bit.  Unfortunately, violence on women and children is definitely increasing and it must be one of the most serious priorities.

Organised syndicates are clearly on the increase.  Well, people are asking questions why?  Is it because now there is a new Government that is failing?  No, we have not been exposed to the international community for the very fact that today we are happy to be part of the international community.  Organised syndicates are happy to be a part of the international community too.

This kind of act has been increasing in the Province and in the country for a few reasons.  South Africa has developed a banking system so it will be easy for criminals to take the money out of the country.  It has developed linking systems through boats, through ships, through aeroplanes and all those kinds of things.  So it is easy to link.

Thirdly, it is a new market for drugs.  That it is in the southern hemisphere and the continent where people relatively have extra money to spend.  It is unfortunate that things like drugs are not used mostly by the people that have extra money to spend but by those who do not have money.  The fact that they do not have the money to spend on those things, the crime increases because they find ways of getting the money.  Hence the hijacks.  They sell those vehicles to get the money to go and begin to entertain themselves, while the crime is then international, our policing will have to be international.  Hence the Interpol which we have not been exposed to, thanks to the new dispensation.

Maybe it would be controversial if I come to this point as the Chair of the Portfolio Committee, but I would like to make this point because now and again it has been raised, not only this Department's policy but others, especially Mr Rehman, my colleague there, who was here yesterday about education.  When I wanted to respond to him he had already left.

POLICING AND CONSTITUTION

I want to deal with this question of the devolution of powers.  Mostly this is a constitutional question and unfortunately or fortunately the Constitution does not provide policing powers to the provinces, but never uses the term "devolution", instead it uses terms like "assigned" and "allocation".  If you check your Constitution those are the terms it uses, "assign" or "allocation".  Which means this question of devolution is misplaced to be debated here, it should be debated constitutionally.

The meaning of these terms are quite close but never the same, the members then could look at their dictionaries to find out what these terms mean.  The term I want to deal with is the devolution of power, that is not provided for in the Constitution in terms of what we are talking about now.  I want the members to understand each time the members argue about devolution of powers, they are arguing on a constitutional matter.  I do not want to argue about allocation and assignment of powers, because that is already provided for in the Constitution and further elaborated in the Police Act.  If you look, Chapter 11 of the Constitution, clause 206(3) says:

	The Province is entitled:

	(a)	to monitor police conduct;
	(b)	to oversee the effectiveness and efficiency of the police service, including receiving reports on the police service;
	(c)	to promote good relationship between the police and community;
	(d)	to assess the effectiveness of the visible policing; and
	(e)	to liaise with the Cabinet members responsible for policing with respect to crime.

All these are powers that the provinces enjoy.

Further to elaborate my point, the Province has tremendous powers in connection with appointments and firing of the Provincial Commissioner.  Looking at clause 207(3):

	The National Commissioner, with the concurrence of the provincial executive ...(That means the MEC)... must appoint a woman or a man as the provincial commissioner for that province, but if the National  Commissioner and the provincial executive are unable to agree on the appointment, the Cabinet member responsible for policing must mediate between the parties.

He does not intervene, he mediates.  The onus lies with the MEC whether he takes it or he chucks him out.  Those are tremendous powers that the Commissioner of the Province has to decide on.

As I have indicated above, the MEC here also has the firing power of the Commissioner, is supported by clause 207(6).

	If the provincial commissioner has lost the confidence of the provincial executive, that executive may institute appropriate proceedings for the removal or transfer of or disciplinary action against, that Commissioner, in accordance with the National legislation.

He has the power to chuck him out and tell him, "Go home".  He has those powers here.  So I want us to be clear, because it is no use crying for more powers when we have so many powers.  How far have we gone in the implementation of the many powers that we have?

HON MEMBERS:  What about Gauteng.  Gauteng is looking for more powers.

MR B H CELE:  Ask it, I am not Gauteng.  Not only the Executive member has so much power over policing in the Province but even this Legislature has some powers looking at section 206(9):

	A provincial legislature may require the provincial commissioner of the province to appear before it or any of its committees to answer questions.

Those are the powers we have, tremendously so.

Now I want to argue about devolution of powers which I think several years down the line I would agree with, but not now and I have my reasons.  The present dispensation has inherited segmented and fragmented police forces from the ~~apartheid~~ South Africa and fiefdoms of Bantustanism.  The common thing about all these fragments were:

1.	Ill-trained
2.	Under-trained
3.	Wrongly trained
4.	Badly trained
5.	Abused for political gains
6.	Underpaid
7.	Developed to be the killing machinery of ~~apartheid~~
8.	Racially biased
9.	Sectionally development
10.	Disorientated.

These are the policies we have inherited.

I believe that South Africa remains one country historically, economically and even culturally, so things that pertain to policing remain intertwined in this history.  Let us take an example.  South Africa has forensic experts, I am told, that deals with the checking of cheques as the final handwriting.  I am told that there is one person that is an expert in the whole Republic of South Africa and he is in Pretoria.  If he goes then we will not have such an expert.  I am told he is somewhere in Pretoria, alone in the whole country.  If he is knocked down by a car today we will have to import that expert.  So if we begin to get and have our own powers we would be minus that expert.  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION.
	
MR B H CELE:  Maybe from Germany this time.  South Africa has one forensic expert base who is a head and also a department himself, though I am not sure, I doubt if this Province has a black bomb disposal expert.  I am not sure if this Province has significant, if any, blacks in the water and divers unit.  I am not sure if this Province has a black police pilot.  I am not sure, maybe I will be proved wrong.  Maybe there is one black pilot doing the police work in this Province but I am not sure.  But there are many other specialised units in the police, some of them are found out of the Province, which if we demand the complete devolution of power, which goes with exclusiveness because I believe devolution goes with exclusivity, will be cut off to these skills and whatever standard that is, if there are any standards, will further deteriorate.

APPOINTMENT AND PROVINCIAL MANAGEMENT

We are told that this Province has between 23 000 and 24 000 policemen and women.  No doubt more than 80% of them are black, in particular Africans.  I know somebody will shout, "Oops", when I talk that language, it is good for you.  You will shout again.  It is the crux of the matter, there are more Africans in this Province, more than anybody else and I am not ashamed to say so.  I will say it next and every time, I will remind all of us who sit here.  If you shout "Oops" if you want to more than that.  I am sick and tired of people when you begin to talk facts here they shout "Oops, oops, oops".

MR M S C M MOTALA:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear the point of order from the member.

MR M S C M MOTALA:  Mr Chairman, it is worrying us now, I think the speaker is threatening the members on this side and it is frightening.  I think we need police protection, Mr Chairman.  [LAUGHTER]

MR A RAJBANSI:  On a point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  That side of the House say they are unthreatenable.  So that member is casting a reflection on the strength of his party.  [LAUGHTER]

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Will Mr Cele continue please.

MR B H CELE:  No doubt more than 80% of those are blacks, are Africans in particular.  It is with deep pain that up to today and era we still argue about representivity and anyway, this is only a South African term.  There is nowhere else, you peruse your dictionary, there is no term "representivity", it is only used in South Africa.  In anyway I will use it.  Representivity and the reflection of our population in this issue.  We have three Provincial Commissioners in this Province, two are white and one black.  Two of them are here, one is not.

AN HON MEMBER:  Are you racist?

MR B H CELE:  Maybe.  Two are whites and one is black, vice versa of 80%.  We have six Area Commissioners, who have always been five whites and one African.  If that is racism sorry, it is the wrong statistics I am giving.  One African even is out there at ~Ulundi~, hidden there, because he cannot be a Commissioner in the glittering and bright lights of Durban and Pietermaritzburg.  He cannot come close here.

We were hoping that this natural process would provide us with the golden opportunity to redress the short-comings when the other two Commissioners resigned, Durban and Maritzburg.  What has happened with a lot of intervention from the Portfolio Committee, I do not care who says what, one Commissioner has been employed that is of Indian origin and we love that.  The other one has been shifted from Newcastle to Maritzburg because Maritzburg is a senior position, it is better pay and all that so we could not get an African here.  Yebo kunjalo, Shout, "Oops".

At least at the present moment we have three white Area Commissioners and then we have one African and one Indian, two blacks still very much disproportionate.  If I am not mistaken, we have a pool of nine General Commissioners in this Province.  Three are black and six are white and not the percentage of the Province.  We have a pool of 24 Directors, those are supposed to be Brigadiers.  I think there are 12 blacks out of 24.  That is 50%.  Nine Africans and three Indians.  Please note with interest this Province and I guess in the country, there is no woman good enough to be a Police Commissioner, especially African.  None good enough.  Coming to this Province there is not a woman good enough to even be a Director, as long as she is an African, she cannot be a Director in this Province in the organisation that has 24 000 members.

Fortunately, it has one Senior Superintendent African woman, that got in there with serious intervention of the Portfolio Committee.  She had to be interviewed twice last year for her to become the Superintendent.  She could not make the first grade.  When she was re-interviewed somebody thought she was then good.

You call it racist, I am just giving statistics.  Unfortunately no pink or yellow people I will be calling them, so they are still black and white.  Of late there has been a promotion that has taken place in the country.  People moving from being Sergeants to Inspectors.  I have the list.  The members, if they want it, they can get it.  The suggested figures there is that the ratio I have worked out of that list, there are 553 whites and 56 blacks that have been promoted.  It is the ratio, I can give you the whole list out of about 3 000.  It is 553 to 56.  They are not even good enough to be promoted from sergeant to become inspectors, ordinary warrant officers.

The Minister spoke of BMWs from the Business Against Crime.  There were supposed to be a few African young hot-headed police to go and occupy the office of the Commissioner for the black drivers to be included.  They are not even skilled enough to drive the BMWs.  So I will argue that we will have to put this organisation in order and then we can begin to argue about other things.

Community Policing Fora and Distribution of Resources

What do not know here is that we do not have money for policing but we do not know how much money is spent in this Province.  I understand that money has moved from R8 billion Nationally to R11 billion but we do not know how much money in this Province per se.  I know that in one police station around Umbilo, Durban used plus/minus R12 to R13 million in one year and that police station is just a stone throw from the headquarters, C R Swart.  If you move from my home town, Port Shepstone to Durban you walk on foot from police station to police station and mind you, who is staying and living along the sea?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR B H CELE:  But at Zakheni there is a police station where the Station Commander until recently could not phone out because the station had only incoming calls while others are provided with R13 million to run their business.  Note where they are situated.

Turning to the Community Policing Forum.  Why are these 30 minutes so short?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  25 minutes, you have spent 23,36 already. 

MR B H CELE:  Turning to the Community Policing Forum, democratic policing and theory acts as a balance between the rights and needs of citizens as individuals and their responsibilities as members of the community.  But to perform the role, the modern police officer needs not only to be a lawyer and a social worker, but also something of a scientist, a marriage counsellor, a mediator, criminologist, sex, race and community relations psychologist and a youth worker, together with having some skills as an athlete, accountant, a firearm specialist and in dealing with drugs and mental problems.  In addition, it is necessary to be knowledgeable about politics and current events.  That is the police we need to put in when we deal with Community Policing Forums.  Are they equipped then to be so?

My question then, do we have this kind of police to run and manage the structures of community policing?  The one thing I want to say before I sit down about the Community Policing Forums.  Police and communities will have to act as equal partners.  The problem is that you only train the police, so that they begin to manage and run the process, instead of training the community members so that jointly they can manage the process including the resources, not to come and tell us how much we must spend but we must sit down and find out, all of us, how much we need to spend and why.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Right on time, Mr Cele.  Thank you.  I wish to now call upon the hon member Mr Ntombela to address the House for nine minutes.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, and your hon House.  I thank you for allowing me to speak after the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee of Safety and Security, Mr Cele.  I have heard him holding forth some of the things that he has said, I have heard for the first time.  I would not dispute them.

If somebody is telling the truth, some of what he says must be understandable.  You must not dispute something that someone says if he is saying what is necessary.  Chairman, firstly, I must congratulate Nomafu who is in charge of Safety in this Province of KwaZulu-Natal, that is ~Inkosi~ Ngubane.

It is my belief that there is no one who does not know that the Premier of this Province, that is Premier Ngubane, showed great wisdom by choosing a person who is an ~Inkosi~, and who knows how to try cases, and a person who knows, who has the insight to know what causes people to suffer.  I also do not think that there is anybody in this House that should go against or dispute what the ~Inkosi~ says, when the ~Inkosi~ says how people should be governed, and also how the police should be controlled.  Were there to be such a person, that person would be showing disrespect.

Chairman, I want to choose my words very carefully when I speak about this Department.  There is great suffering amongst the community of this country which community does not have the wherewithal to protect itself.  They are being made to suffer by those people who have the wherewithal and who are able to harass other people without any consequences arising therefrom.  That is because they have the wherewithal.

We, the small people, when a person dies it is treated as a triviality.  We get pulled into court and it is treated as a triviality, because we are small people.  It is true to say today there is a great hue and cry from all the people, where people are saying the police are making mistakes, the police are making mistakes.  People are arrested by the police, they are taken to police stations and locked up.

It then becomes apparent who is undoing the work which is being done by the police.  I want to say to my Chairman Ndosi, let us remember that it is the politicians who undermine the work that is done by the police a great deal.  I am talking about things that I am going to mention.  They will admit some of them and deny some of them.

I say the police are doing their work.  They arrest people and take them to the police station.  On that very night that those people are arrested, JJ goes out and goes to the police station and says those people who have been arrested must be released.

Indeed this is the truth that I am telling.  The hon Ministers must refrain from this.  It is not my belief that if a person is an hon Minister I should ridicule him.  I do not want to ridicule Ministers.  I am talking about the evidence that there are certain Ministers who go to police stations and say that those persons that have been arrested must be released.

I am mentioning JJ because he is a colleague.  We are both at a low level, but there are Ministers, I do not want to ridicule them, that when people belonging to the ANC have been arrested they do not sleep that night, they go to the police stations and when they get there they say, "So-and-so must be released".  These are truths that I am saying.

I say as far as finding fault with the way that the police do their work, when we are finding fault with them we must do so in the knowledge that we politicians make mistakes which cause the police to be in a position where they cannot do their work freely.

Mr Chairman and your hon House, I say, as an old man, this Province was spoilt and the whole of South Africa was spoilt on the day when an organisation, which is the ANC, called itself POPCRU, because all the stations that exist are full of POPCRU.  If you go to lay a charge at the police station you will find that that police station is full of POPCRU.

You say to this POPCRU person, "Here is a docket.  You must go out and arrest so-and-so".  That person will not be arrested.  Chairman, I am talking about the evidence of charges that were laid at Stoffelton, where a member of POPCRU was charged in connection with a kangaroo court.  People died, people were killed, charges were laid.  Up until today nobody has been arrested, because those dockets are being controlled by POPCRU.  I, David Ntombela, will never be at peace while police stations are controlled by a certain organisation.

The police should be neutral and should not belong to a certain organisation, because that is why there is this corruption and this great violence.  The hon Premier together with the hon Minister Zuma, and all other Minister are engaged in a great struggle to ensure that the IFP and the ANC holds discussions and that we tell each other the truth.  If these truths are not told while there is a certain organisation that controls the police, POPCRU, then people are arrested and released because they are ANC.  My friends, there will never be peace.

Chairman, and your hon House, when we are talking about safety I think that the Prince of KwaPhindangene, who is the President of the IFP, many years back in conjunction with ~Amakhosi~ of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, as a result of the threats that he would be attacked and killed, that houses would be destroyed, that the courts of the ~Amakhosi~ would be destroyed, schools would be burnt.

With great bravery the Prince endeavoured to ensure that there were persons trained to protect the Ministers, and to protect the buildings.  ~Amakhosi~ had agreed to that.

Those people went to be trained, but this became a great point of discussion, talking about the fact that the Prince sent people for training.  That those people were being trained to kill people.  That is not the truth.  Today, Chairman, it has come out that indeed what the Prince was saying has been revealed by the Deputy President, that there were desires that the Prince should be killed.

That existed.  Where is this safety that we are talking about, because the Prince had divined that there should be people who would protect those people that did not have the wherewithal.  He did that, but was criticised.  I say today, Ndosi, my brother, let us come out into the open as people from one place, come out into the open and support Thabo Mbeki who said there was such an endeavour to kill the Prince of KwaPhindangene.

We must also say it in this Province, and agree that there was such a thing and not deny it so that the Prince is vindicated in his heart, and we of the IFP are also vindicated.  It was never our intention to turn people into rogues who were going to kill people.  They were people who were going to protect other people.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You have one more minute.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 
TRANSLATION:  Chairman, the hon Nomafu, I say we have not got to where we want to go because there are many members of the IFP in gaol.  They are not allowed to receive bail, they are languishing in gaol even as I speak.  A certain person of the ANC who killed a boy who was a member of the IFP at Donnybrook, Khati, spent two days in gaol and was granted bail.

Suspects who belong to the IFP we are told that their cases are still being investigated.  Even today they are languishing in gaols.  Where is this safety, my friends, that we are talking about with Ndosi, saying that there should be safety?  There must be safety for every person.  There must not just be safety on the side of the ANC, and yet on the side of the IFP there is no safety.

I say let us agree that Ndosi and I will go together to the police stations and say the IFP people must be released.  Indeed I am saying that the IFP people must be released, because, my friends, it is no use, Chairman, for us to talk about peace here between the IFP and the ANC, and on the other side during the night so-and-so creeps around, JJ and others, and they go and say, "Let us oppress the people of the IFP, and not release them from gaol".  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip): 
TRANSLATION:  Indeed, Chairman, I say as an old man, I say I am asking Ndosi to listen carefully to this thing, that let us agree, let us go with ~Inkosi~ Mlaba and release all these people that are members of the IFP, that are filling up the gaols let us release them.  Thank you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:.  Yes, could we hear, Mr Bartlett?  Your microphone is not on.

MR G S BARTLETT:  We often criticise the interpreters in this hon House.  I believe that today with that hon member's speech the interpreter has done a wonderful job and I would like them to know it, sir.  My Zulu is not that good, I do not want to comment on the hon member's speech, but I just want to record that that interpretation of what was said was excellent and I want to just thank the system and the interpreter, sir.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  Well, I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Roy Ainslie to address the House for 12 minutes.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  I welcome this opportunity to comment on some of the issues raised by the Minister and by the Chairperson of the Committee, Mr Cele, and Mr Ntombela.

Before I do that I think I want to take issue just a little bit with the previous hon speaker Mr Ntombela.  As party leaders surely it is our duty to look after our members when they get into trouble.  I am quite sure the same principle applies to the IFP.  If our people get into trouble with the law we have to ensure they have representation.  We attempt to get bail where necessary.  I must also assure the hon Mr Ntombela that there are plenty of ANC members in gaol.  I visit them in Westville Prison, I visit them elsewhere and we too cannot get bail for them.  It does not only apply to the IFP.

The first issue that I would like to deal with concerns a matter raised by both the Minister and the Chairperson and that is Community Police Forums.  In a recent TV programme, which members may have seen, two case studies were chosen in discussing policing.  The first was the Congo and the second was Malaysia. Both of those countries had histories of high crime levels.

Both of those countries sorted out, to a very large extent, their crime problems by involving communities in policing.  In fact I think I recall from the programme, it was pointed out that every criminal has a neighbour.  If we can try and involve those neighbours of criminals in assisting us in policing, I believe we will go a long way to solving the crime problem.

This is the international experience, that the police cannot successfully combat crime unless there is community participation in policing.  It is a principle, as we know, that we have accepted in this country.  In fact one of the four pillars of the National Crime Prevention strategy is community participation in crime prevention.

I see that the Minister in the documents that he has handed out to us today has included version two of the National Crime Prevention strategy.  I have only seen version one.  I am on the Committee, the Safety and Security Committee.  I have not seen this document.  It will be very useful if in future when such important things are to be tabled and discussed with the communities that they first come to the Portfolio Committee.  I am not too sure.  I see the Minister's photograph is in this document.  I do not know if the Minister has even seen it.

On paper there is an impressive list of Community Police Forums, but I believe if we look at these forums and analyse what they are doing there are in fact very few forums that are successfully performing their function.  I have listed several problems relating to the forums that I work with.  The first is:

1.	Former members of the security police or members suspected of third force activities attempt to play a key role in these forums.

2.	There is a lack of co-operation from some members of the South African Police in assisting to establish these forums and failing to assist communities who have got crime problems.

	Late last year I was part of a delegation from Ntuzuma.  We went to see the Area Commissioner about the crime situation in Ntuzuma.  We asked for additional patrols in key areas, we got nothing.  We asked for mobile police stations in Ntuzuma, we got nothing.  We handed over a list of cases we were concerned about, we were assured we would get a written response to our queries, we are still waiting.  We were assured at the same meeting that minutes of that meeting would be sent to us, we are still waiting.  That was eight months ago.  I have now given up phoning the Area Commissioner's office to receive this vital information.  Can you imagine how difficult it now is to go back to that same community and talk to them about improving police/community relations?  It is almost impossible.

3.	There is a reluctance by the SAPS to supply forums and members of this House with statistics regarding crime.  In his speech, the Minister thanked one of the police departments, I think it was the Crime Management Information Centre for the figures that they had given him.  Forums cannot get those figures.  As a member of Parliament I have phoned this centre, they will not give me figures.

	How can members of Parliament assist forums?  How can forums function properly if they are not given statistics in their areas of operation relating to crime?  Part of their function is to stop crime.  They need to know the extent of that crime.  Perhaps the Minister can respond in this debate.  Why is it not possible to get these vitally important statistics and what can the Minister of Police do about it?

4.	Probably the biggest problem is the lack of resources and lack of training.  This situation pertains despite the fact that R3 million was made available to Community Police Forums, I think it was in 1994.

This money was earmarked specifically for training.  Yet despite this almost, what is it, three years now only R33 000 of that R3 million has been spent.  That is under 2% of the total.  Even where communities meet the criteria established in the Police Act for receiving these funds they are not getting that money.

An example I can give you, is a forum I am involved with and that is the Vela Police Community Forum in Inanda and there they meet all the criteria in the Police Act and they meet more criteria.

Let me tell you how this forum functions.  They have very close community police co-operation.  If you go to a forum meeting in Vela and you are a newcomer, you cannot distinguish between members of the community and members of the police.  They are speaking the same language.  They believe in the same programmes.  Yet we are doing so little to support these fora.

In the Vela Police Forum all the major stakeholders support this forum.  The FP support the forum.  The ANC supports the forum and despite problems of funding they have had two major successes:

1.	In helping reduce the criminal violence in Bhambayi; and
2.	In fact in stabilising generally the crime situation in the area of Vela Police Station.

If any forum needs financial assistance, if any forum needs additional training, if any forum needs some of this R3 million, which is not being spent, it is the Vela Police Forum.  Yet repeated attempts by this forum to access this money have failed.  Their requests for funds are either ignored or turned down.  Possibly, maybe not today, but later on maybe, the Minister can tell us what the problem is.  Why are successful forums not being assisted?

There are other forums also that need assistance.  Mtshebeni Police Station in Inanda has also for some time been attempting to establish a forum.  They have serious problems which those members of the police force in charge of these forums ought to know.  They ought to go out and assist places like Mtshebeni without having to receive reports of this nature from me, but that is not happening.  There is no pro-activity.

The international experience is being borne out in our Province.  Where community police co-operation exists, crime levels are reduced, such as the Tongaat Police Forum experience, or crime levels are stabilised such as the Vela experience which I have just indicated.

Where there is no such co-operation or where there are no CPFs or where CPFs are battling to get off the ground, there crime increases as in Ntuzuma and as in the northern part of Inanda around Mtshebeni Police Station.

These are some of the comments I wish to make.  It was the Minister and the Chairman of our Portfolio Committee who raised the very important issue of CPFs.  We are not going to get anywhere near combatting crime until we take this matter very, very, very seriously.

There are one or two minutes I think remaining.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  You still have three minutes, Mr Ainslie.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Okay.  In those two or three minutes I wish to briefly address the question of the uneven distribution of police resources in the Province, as also referred to by the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee.

There appears to be a two-pronged tactic in this Province with what objective I am not sure.  The first prong, to retain control of the SAPS in the hands of the old white guard.  The second prong, a continuing bias in the use of financial resources, equipment, vehicles, facilities and so on in favour of former white areas.

It is no use having the rainbow nation shine in this House.  We have got to have the rainbow nation also shining outside, when it comes to such things as personnel as also referred to by the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee.  I am very concerned when it comes to the question of promotions in the police force.

I have done some of my own research.  The hon Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee earlier on was trying to find where specialist policemen are, whether they exist or not in this Province.  I must tell the hon member I do not know where these specialist policemen could be found, but I must tell him where not to look for them, because I have done some of my own research with regard to certain specialised units of the South African Police.  Let us take a few examples:

-	The commercial crime unit.  Top structure completely dominated by white people
-	The firearm unit.  White members in most of the senior positions
-	Internal security unit.  Majority of senior positions held by white members
-	The murder and robbery unit.  Majority of senior positions held by white members
-	Organised crime unit.  No Indian or black members of the police force in senior positions
-	SANAB.  Majority of senior positions held by white members

And so it goes on and on, specialised unit after specialised unit.  The stock theft unit, the same applies.  The vehicle theft unit, the same applies.  The diamond and gold unit, the same applies.  The unrest and violent crimes unit, the same applies.  Black people are simply not good enough in the eyes of the people that select senior officers for these positions.

This is a matter which we have debated in the Portfolio Committee.  We are hitting our heads against brick walls.  It is a matter I urgently believe that the hon Minister must address, because it is leading to a lack of morale in the police force and ultimately it is going to inhibit our efforts to fight crime.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Ainslie.  Next on the list of speakers is the hon member Mr Haygarth who will speak for nine minutes.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Chairman, thank you very much.  I am going to introduce a little bit of history first, prior to the advent of the political parties in the chamber so that we do not get too politicised in this matter.

I am going to take some extracts from the Barrier of Spears by R O Pearce.  Once upon a time there were two tribes in the western part of Natal, in the foothills of the Drakensberg, the Amazizi and the Amahlubi.  In these cases tribal warfare had been rather a pleasant affair, very similar to the medieval jousts and tournaments in Europe.  No one was seriously hurt, lots of shouting and clashing of sticks and a few embarrassed men tumbled in the dirt.

In 1822 the successor of King Dingiswayo was King Shaka.  King Shaka was one of the most remarkable characters in South African history.  He was a savage if brilliant conqueror, one of the greatest military geniuses Africa had ever known.  The long throwing spear was changed for the short stabbing spear.  His men were given a larger shield, the encircling movement and a much fiercer type of warfare where no quarter was given, was introduced.  By comparison with the jousts of the Amazizi and the Amahlubi, to quote R O Pearce, "It was now war to the death".

The sudden unannounced strike in the night, the wholesale massacre of men, women and children.  His men were well looked after, their morale was high.  The devotion of his men exceeded that of the Roman legends, while their ferocity outstripped that of the Goths and the Huns, "As an architect of victory he was incomparable".

Why do I say that?  Because the heritage of King Shaka is still with us.  That is no sin.  In Ireland the heritage of 300 years is with the people and they are at each other's throats today after many, many years.

The difficulty that one has and the police have and the Community Police Forums have is how do you deal with the violence, and I am dealing particularly with the political violence that exists in our Province.  If you think of Richmond and the area of Magoda the words, "a sudden unannounced strike in the night, the wholesale massacre of men, women and children", how true that was.  Men armed with pangas chasing families in the dark through the bush in Magoda.  People who had to leave their homes, become refugees.  That was part of what that heritage has meant.

The police suffer from a terrible lack of funds.  Men, vehicles, fuel.  How do they deal with this situation?  There are four Ds in respect of security and I take two of them, divert and deflect.

What is happening in the country is security is effectively being privatised.  What we are working to is a stateless Government.  A Government that is not there because it has not the funds to give the public what they need.  So what is the public doing?  Five years ago there were 525 security firms.  1996 there are 3 500 security firms and they have 200 000 employees.  More than the South African Police Services themselves.

What is the public doing?  The public is spending its own money on the provision of security.  We have heard about the farmers, we have heard from hon member MacKenzie what the farmers do.  What is the residential community doing, and we see in the paper just the other day in the area of the hon member here, the hon member Mr Burrows, the people are talking about electrified fences around a street block.  There are people who have engaged security firms to patrol their own residential areas at considerable cost.  The farmers already are saying, "How much more do we have to spend to protect our assets".

The sadness is that the security is costing more and more money, the police are being starved of their own funds and how do we make a forward move?

A lot of emphasis has been placed on the subject of community policing.  I want to make one point on community policing, and on the violence in which we are situated.  With the intimidation that arises from the political strife in these areas, it is very difficult to have satisfactory community policing in the difficult areas. 

How are we going to have some by-elections in Richmond with the mayor situated in a house surrounded by police and the army?  How can you have a democratic election in those circumstances?  Where are we going to in the elections that are going to take place in 1999?

We were all very proud of the achievements of this country when they had what was termed a democratic free and fair election.  Can we be satisfied that 1999 will produce a similar event?  Are we going to be faced with security having to be brought in by the Local Government sector, by the expenditure of huge sums of money to attempt to provide a climate in which we can succeed?

Take the situation again at Richmond.  I read in the paper the name Bob Ndlovu is etched on my mind.  If it came up once in the Richmond subcommittee it came up 100 times, and I see that another attempt was made to arrest him and some of his colleagues, ten of the most wanted criminals in South Africa.  They had helicopters, they had the army and the police being dropped to track these people, tracker dogs and still those people remain at large.  How can we in those circumstances be satisfied that we can succeed?  I do not wish to be negative.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two more minutes.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Two minutes?  Thank you, Mr Chair.  How are we as politicians going to play our role?  Much criticism has been lodged of the police in so far as affirmative action is concerned and I know my Chairman, he speaks from his heart.  He has that feeling.  He is a very angry man but I think one has to balance the rate of affirmative action with the practicalities of the day.  I do not say that in a sense of criticism.  I think it is factual.  One has to be very careful as to progress in this field, and it will affect everybody in whatever field we work in.  Change is one of the most difficult things to achieve.  It is not easy at any time and the sudden change from one to another is something, with the greatest respect I have for our Chairman, to say it is not the sole solution to our problem.

If we are to carry forward a positive note to our constituency on the need for peace, we have to satisfy the people that there is going to be a change, that there is going to be some success, that we are going to go into an election in 1999 and succeed to carry our very young democracy forward into the future.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Haygarth.  I just wish to announce to members that we have a standing rule that we do not open our cell phones.  Cell phones have been ringing constantly.  So members are reminded and the public as well that cell phones are banned from this House.

Next on the list is the hon member Mr Roger Burrows who will speak for six minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Chairman, I listened to the hon the chairman of the Portfolio Committee with a fair degree of amazement, not amazement at what he said, because I do not disagree with what he said.  He will know that I have been a proponent over a considerable number of years that the public service of South Africa should reflect the demographics of the population.  I do not disagree with him.

My problem is to whom is he saying it?  There is a budget before us of R2,8 million, it is a tiny Department, Mr Minister, you will agree.  It has got a very important function, but the hon the Chairman of the Portfolio Committee is a member of the African National Congress.  The Minister of Safety and Security at National level is Mr Sydney Mufamadi, a member of the African National Congress.  Now who the hell is he talking to?

He, if anything, is talking to his own party.  Now please let us just understand that.  If he wants to change the complexion and the nature of the South African Police Service he must do it within his own party.  It is no use pointing fingers at this side, he may point them by all means at the Provincial Commissioner and what he does, but let us understand where that message is going to.  It is going to the ANC and what they are doing or not doing to fight crime in this country.

I asked the question of the previous Minister of Safety and Security in this Province.  Is there a freeze on police recruitment and/or appointment?  If so, for what reason?  His answer to me was, this is Dr Mdlalose:

	I confirm that there is a National Cabinet moratorium on recruitment to the SAPS.  The National Minister of Safety and Security will be able to submit a reason for this.

Quite frankly, I then asked a question about give us a breakdown of the figures.  10,8% of all the positions for the South African Police Force in this Province are vacant.  They cannot and will not be filled until the freeze on recruitment is lifted.

So if we want a combined message to go out of this House that we can all agree on, let us make that number one.  Lift the freeze on recruitment and by all means fill every post that you want with the people that you want to fill it with.  There are 2 500, at the time of answering this question, police persons short in this Province.  Yes, we have got between 22 000 and 24 000, but do you know that is less than half of the City of New York which has the same population as this Province.

We do not have enough police and why do we not have enough police?  Because the National Cabinet controlled by the ANC saw fit not to give enough money to the South African Police Service.  Let us just understand that.  Let us understand that the position is exacerbated in individual police stations.

I had a fax come to me this afternoon saying there are supposed to be 220 police on the staff at the Margate Police Station, currently 80 are stationed there and crime is rocketing out of hand.  The Community Police Forum is going to lead a march on Saturday in support of that.  I have a concern because my colleagues have also asked questions about the resources at police stations.  Yes, these are key areas and I do not think there is any disagreement amongst members of the House as to the allocation.  I just picked up two police stations in the Midlands area.  Let me just give you one of them.

The Impendle Police Station.  Stationed there 19 policemen, no policewomen.  It has three reservists.  It has three vans.  Nine handcuffs.  No torches.  Can you imagine being a police person in Impendle without a torch.  I do not understand it.  19 policemen, six handguns, seven shotguns, 11 batons, four telephones, one computer, two radios.  It is simply not enough for a vast rural hinterland, and here I agree with the hon the Chairperson.  The resources are not there.

AN HON MEMBER:  They were all stolen.

MR R M BURROWS:  Oh I am being told from informed sources that they have been stolen.  I am sorry, I did not know that.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR R M BURROWS:  The point I am simply making is I am agreeing with you, there is a resource shortage.  The only way to correct a resource shortages is yes, you will have to shift them and I agree with Mr Ainslie, from the advantaged areas to the disadvantaged and yes, maybe the community in advantaged areas must make contributions of the BMWs and maybe they must donate radios and maybe they must donate some torches.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One more minute.

MR R M BURROWS:  Because the disadvantaged areas cannot get it from their own community.  So we have got to do the shift.  The key area is to push the National Police budget up and to stop the freeze on recruitment.  Let us make it quite sure that we adopt as a principle of this Ministry, in this Province, zero tolerance to crime.  You commit a crime you will be prosecuted, you will go to gaol, but we have got to follow that through.  Police have got to open cases, they have got to be followed up.  There has to be vehicles and transport to follow up those cases.  There have got to be prosecutors to follow them up and action in the courts and they have got to be taken to prison and not released on bail to disappear.

You know, quite frankly, the population of South Africa, the broad population across all political and racial lines, is sick to death of the criminals running riot over our police forces. The only way we can do it is to make crime our number one priority to say yes, we have got to spend money on all these other important things, if we do not stop crime then you can actually write, "Finish to us all".  If we can all agree on that then I think we will have achieved something in this House.  Thank you, Chair.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  At this point I wish to hand over to the hon ~Inkosi~ Mdletshe to take the chair.

~INKOSI~ B N MDLETSHE TAKES OVER AS CHAIRPERSON OF THE COMMITTEE

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Mohlomi.  On the list now I will now call upon the hon member Miss M Xulu.  You have got eight minutes.

MISS M XULU: 

TRANSLATION:  The hon Chairman, and the hon House.  Mine is to report today.  I want to report about incidents which are happening in Umlazi that started on Sunday.  On Sunday we were going to open a branch of the IFP at Umlazi H Section.  When we came back from there people from H Section, the branch was going to be opened at V Section, when the people from H Section were coming back from there in V Section, when they arrived there, there was a group of people who were toyi-toyiing.

These people of ours who had arrived back were also toyi-toyiing.  They thought that the other people who were toyi-toyiing were meeting them and were happy.  What puzzled them was the singing.  They say it was as a result of the songs that were being sung that they realised that the people were looking for a fight.

Hon Chairman, the songs were swearing and insulting the leader of Inkatha.  The songs were saying that the leader of Inkatha, at the time when others were in gaol fighting for freedom the leader was shaking Juba cartons.  I am talking about Juba, that is drunk.  That is the type of Juba that I am talking about.  That is what caused the fighting.

Although our people were carrying sticks and shields they were shot and they ran, because this was the youth.  The youth ran to where the older people were.

What I want to report, hon Chair, is that this is an old war between the ANC and the Inkatha.  Our Inkatha leaders teach us that we must be peaceful, and that we should go and teach the people in the lower structures that peace.  When you get to the lower structures that is in conflict with the lower structures of the ANC, I do not know what we are going to do because this war is being fuelled by the councillors.

There are two councillors, an ANC councillor that was chosen via the ballot paper for the ward council, and a councillor that was elected via the party list by the IFP.  The ANC councillor says to the people, "This person is not allowed to say anything to you, he is not allowed to hold meetings.  If he holds a meeting you must shoot him".  

He is not a councillor, he is just a thing for making tea in the chamber, that is all.  When the IFP people attempt to go to the ward councillor with their needs, the ward councillor says, "Here is a form, bring your R12,00 and join".  They come back to us and say, "Seeing as we do not have a councillor what do you expect us to do?"

I have made many efforts to contact my brother Makhaye on the other side, and my brother Dlamini and fix up this matter.  I even went to Msholozi and said, "Here is a matter that will burn houses".  I said this matter should be rectified because I live there, I can see.  That did not happen, it only happened yesterday when there were dead bodies.

That is why I say, before anything else I must report this because it upsets me, it upsets the whole of Umlazi.  There is not only one body, sir, there was one body yesterday, and other people have been killed.  So I am requesting this House to take steps about this matter.

In December I reported here after an incident had occurred at Umlazi in C Section.  Inkatha was going to hold a rally and it was blocked by the ANC which was armed to the teeth with their big guns.

I put this weight on Msholozi's shoulders in this House, and I asked him to go to the people and tell them that things had changed now, we are not fighting now, there is peace now.  Until today, as the leader of the African National Congress, Msholozi had promised to hold a meeting between his people and the Inkatha.  That meeting has not happened, hon Chairman, to this day.

We tried yesterday.  I must thank my colleagues, the hon Mr Cele, the hon Dlamini, the hon Father Mthiyane and myself got together to try and solve a problem.  We thought we had prevented the problem yesterday.  What was bad was that when we went back to our people separately, when we got to our people we found that our people said that their things had been taken.  The doors of their houses had been smashed.  What were they supposed to do under those circumstances?

We thought it best to go back to their honours and meet again, and tell them about the problems that we had encountered.  When we went back to their honours they fled indeed.  Dlamini said that I was turning the people against him, and he fled.  Until now they have not asked us what happened when we spoke to the people.  What happened was that we asked the police to accompany the people to the place where the people were crying.  The police accompanied them, they then had firearms pointed at them, at their faces, and they were told that their brains would be splattered, that they should leave there because they were in the company of people of the IFP.

I do not know, Your Honour, whether you could say there was safety in the land under those circumstances.  What upsets me is that when we voted we all had hope.  After the election we said we were coming out from under oppression.  We knew that our only sin regarding oppression was because of our black skin.  Now, Mr Chairman, it is worse than that, because it is a political war.  We could see that powers should be given to the provinces, but powers were not given to the provinces.  Instead they are being hogged higher up by His Honour in Pretoria.

The State President will leave this country boiling in corruption.  He is going to go on pension, Your Honour.  Rogues are hiding in organisations, they know that whatever they do they will not be put to death.  It is said that that is their right, irrespective of what they do.  We then in the IFP will never get rest.  We are hit and killed because of the fact that we belong to this organisation.  The drafters of the Constitution did not think about the provinces, and take into account the fact that those that live in them are different, and they live different lives.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [There is one minute left]. 

MISS M XULU: TRANSLATION:  But all these people do not get rest.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  If I still have a minute left, I want to emphasise that I will not play the fool with ~Inkosi~ Mbovu, because he is in control of the Safety and Security Portfolio.  He does not have any power, the power is higher up being hogged by that man that is higher up.

I want to ask Makhaye, the Chairman, because I have heard the people that read the news saying he is the Minister of Police, let them discuss and agree that it would be good for the powers to be delegated to the provinces, because the provinces will then take their own decisions.  They will see to it that the people are safe in their own areas.

I will not play the fool with the Police Department.  I have heard what Makhaye has said.  I agree with some of the things he had said, because at Umlazi yesterday when we wanted their help we were told at the charge office that they did not have the proper equipment.  That that equipment had been taken by a person who was in control, who was known as Superintendent Sayer and that he is the one who knows what he did with that equipment or who he gave it to.  It then became necessary to telephone Durban, to the Deputy Commissioner in order to get the police.  Those are the police that were told that their brains would be splattered with bullets.

So if all the power is still being hogged higher up, if the hon Minister has not been able to organise things with the Commissioner, nothing is going to be rectified here in this Province of ours, not unless the power is delegated to the Commissioner so that the Minister, our Minister, is able to organise things for himself.

We will be happy if that happens.  I understand the provisions of your Constitution.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [The member's time is over].

MISS M XULU: TRANSLATION:  Thank you, Chairman.  I was just replying to Makhaye with this Constitution of his that is in his pocket, that he organised with Comrade Sidney.  T/E

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!  The next speaker will be Mr S B Mthembu.  You have 12 minutes to speak.

MR S B MTHEMBU:  Hon Chairperson, it is highly discouraging to rise following a speaker who speaks about the very disturbing things, which are taking place at this point in time in our Province.  We really understand, all of us as we are here, that the situation is not conducive outside, that is why we are all out by all means trying to create trust among ourselves as leaders, and try by all means to convey the consensus, the agreement which we have achieved at the level of leadership.

Gradually, steady but sure, the situation will change.  I hope that we are not going to be discouraged about what is taking place and about what Miss Xulu has just reported, and this is the challenge which we need to accept as a challenge and make sure we are going to face it as it is for a good cause, to save the nation, to save the people of this Province.

I wish to congratulate the Minister of Safety and Security on his excellent speech he delivered this afternoon.  I would like to address myself to the question which is always raised by the ordinary people on the ground, that the MEC of the Safety and Security Department have got something to do which has been waiting for the functionary lines of Safety and Security but does not materialise.  They were supposed to give guidelines to the functionary structures, but unfortunately up to this stage there is a serious problem and those expectations are not fulfilled.

REDISTRIBUTION OF RESOURCES

The problem of redistribution of resources.  If one is really committed to the safety and security of the people of this Province, you can just go around and check the feeling of the experts and the feeling of the ordinary people, you will always find that there is only one crisis, that there is a serious shortage of manpower and there is a crisis of a shortage of transport, to transport the member of the police to where they are required.

Why is this happening at this point in time?  Why does this take place when we believe that people who are leading the Department are trying by all means to solve the problem?  If one complains about the rural policing problem to the police station wherever you are, you always find one and the same answer.  There is the problem of manpower and there is a problem with transport, nothing can be done.

If one looks at the current situation, it seems as if it still favours the urbanised people or whites, simply because when you are in an urban area, mostly it takes you not more than five minutes to see the police patrolling the area.  It will take you no longer than 20 minutes to see the van patrolling those streets.  The people who were of the opinion that voting in 1994 would give them their proper protection, are still crying tears as there is no assistance, there is no protection for them.

When are we going to see to it that all these things are properly changed as per the people's expectations?  Proper redistribution of resources is there in terms of papers, but what does not appear is the practical and implementation of it.

CRIME COMBAT

On crime.  Our country is facing a serious situation whereby we are rated among the highest criminal countries.  If one asks him or herself the reason why this is taking place, why such excellent proposals of trying to combat crime is not being implemented effectively, one finds different answers.

My strong belief is that within the police force among the top structures, there are those pure conservatives who are purely anti-democratic, who are unable to make sure that things happen as it is proposed by most of the policies and other guidelines produced by the Department of Safety and Security.  I strongly believe that, because I fail to be convinced that these very same people who were so effective in getting the terrorists of the past are now failing to arrest the criminals, who the people are pointing out to them, that these are the people who are giving problems, but they are not doing the proper thing which is required of them.

Now is the time to accept those realities, that the old people who were trained to work completely differently from what we are talking about today.  It is going to be difficult forever for them to have a complete change.  So something better than that should be considered.  There are good young people in the police force who are women, willing to assist the Government of the day, to make sure that we combat crime, but those people are far.  They do not have a say.  They are not in a position to implement what they believe is going to assist the nation, in terms of the policy and other guidelines provided.

So I believe that the only way to deal with this situation is to make sure that we get rid of those rigid conservatives and make sure that we replace them with the people who have an interest to do the job.

The question of the shortage of manpower is not an issue which one will just dwell on, and say that it is a point because we believe that with the number of police we have, if they are all committed, the situation will improve to the extent where one will be able to say something is happening, although there is a shortage of manpower.  But at this point in time something more drastic than that should be implemented or we must find it in this House.

RIGHT-SIZING

There is this policy of right-sizing.  I believe it is where the Government will bring a solution.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR S B MTHEMBU:  I believe that if we could follow that, we might have a lot of chances to come up with the solution, where we will be able to raise people who are going to assist the nation in terms of policy.

POLICING FORUM

I wish to conclude by touching on a few points on the policing forum.  If you look at section 18(1) of the Police Act, 18 of 1995, it specifically provides that:

	The police service shall liaise with the community through CPFs with a view to inter alia establishing and maintaining a partnership between the community and the service.

In the very same section, section 22 states that:

	The Minister shall, in consultation with the executive co-ordinating committee, make regulations to ensure the proper functions of CPF and CP boards.

If you look at what is taking place at this point in time, you will see that we are failing, totally failing to implement what has been implemented as something which is going to assist the nation in taming the violence and criminal situation.

CPF ADMINISTRATION

Mr Chairman, I would like to conclude by requesting all those who are committed to the safety and security of this Province to make sure that we try by all means to utilise the CPF or get involved in the CPF structures, to make sure that the equipment, the tool we have to combat crime and political violence is implemented.  I therefore support the budget and thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  On the list I will now call upon Mr Rajbansi, four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  A police establishment in any country is a social institution and a very, very significant arm of the social institution where you can get social control.  I agree with the sentiments expressed by other hon members, that if we want to reduce the level of crime, society or the community will have to play a very important role.

I think what we have to do jointly with the police establishment and the Portfolio Committee, is to examine why Community Police Forums are not functioning or are failing to succeed in certain important areas.

Last Friday, I indicated, that in addition to asking for increases in the budget of the security establishment in this country, we require certain bold steps immediately, and one of the suggestions I made was that we require very, very tough gun legislation in our country.  If we have the responsibility in terms of the Constitution we should do so at Provincial level.

Yesterday in Cape Town, the Minister of Safety and Security, Minister Mufamadi, gave figures of the number of guns that were confiscated in the various provinces, and his figure shows that KwaZulu-Natal tops the list with 8 553 guns confiscated last year.  Gauteng is second with 3 444.  1 275 in the Western Cape.  1 049 in the Eastern Cape and 571 in the Free State.  These are confiscated guns, and I believe that the cry for us to have some stringent measures in respect of gun control, are sometimes even suggesting the total outlawing of guns in our country, may be necessary.

There has been much emphasis on transformation.  My colleague, the hon Mr Roger Burrows, was quite correct to state that this debate is a very small debate, it centres around the monetary allocation for the Ministry of Safety and Security in our Province.  Transformation is necessary.  Effective transformation is not taking place, and wherever significant transformation has taken place it was a result of the role this Portfolio Committee has played.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I want to give you the example of the Area Commissioner in the Pietermaritzburg area.  It is sad to say that an outstanding applicant, whether he may have succeeded or not succeeded, an attempt of sabotage with a trivial charge being laid against him.  We do not expect this at the time when we have freedom in our country.

I want to make a plea for the appointment of senior female officers in our highest rank, with figures given by the hon Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee, we only have three females in high ranks in the police force in our Province.  We want to make a plea that this must increase and as far as resources are concerned, let us adopt the policy that lets us shift our manpower and machinery to those areas where the need is the greatest.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr G Bhengu.  You have eight minutes to speak.

MR G E BHENGU: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, and all the House.  I want to congratulate the Minister of the Department after he has given his budget speech today.  I want to say that we are here today because we have come here for the people in order to listen, in order to determine what we are going to get for the people.

~Inkosi~ Mdletshe, when he spoke yesterday, said, "Do not lie to the people".  There too, ~Inkosi~ Khawula spoke and said the same thing when he said, "Do not play the fool with the people".

Our coming here today, Mr Chairman, we have come here indeed because we have been sent here by the people.  The people say we put members in Parliament, we put leaders there.  What are you doing about it?  What we are really sent for at this time is the dying of the people, it is the rape of the people, it is the taking of other people's property by force, it is the shootings, it is the stabbings, and all the other things that happen that should not be happening in a world which believes, and in a world which is properly governed.

Mr Chairman, I want to start off in the beginning by making an example of the painful and frightening existence which we are living.  When the Safety and Security budget has been read we hear the statistics.  We find that from January to April in our region of KwaMashu, 99 people were killed in three months.  In three months, Mr Chairman.  Then we come to those who were attempted murder victims, there are 80 of them.  This is down in writing for all to see.  Should anybody doubt it we could prove it to them.

There were 206 armed robberies.  There were 364 assaults with intent to do grievous bodily harm.  There were 101 rape victims.  It is for that reason, Mr Chairman, that I have decided to stand up and say to this Parliament that the situation we find ourselves in is very difficult, because no reasonable honest homeowner would agree to this situation.  I hear in your beautiful House, Mr Chairman, the main thing is that each speaker speaks, wanting to satisfy themselves that they have made an impact.  We say let us as men and women of Africa come back and kneel down and see what really can be done.  What are we going to say when we get home, because as soon as we get home the people come to us and say, "What did you say?  What did you say in Parliament".  Then those words that the ANC member over there said will be repeated, that at the time when the voting took place people thought that by now things would be quiet and still, but it is not so.

Why then, Mr Chairman, is it that our brothers in the ANC who are controlling the reigns at National level.  It is good because there my brother Msholozi is present.  They must try harder or we must try with them.  Let us look at Mufamadi and say, "Mufamadi, what is your intention indeed?  Your people are being obliterated.  How many do you want to have left?"

If we can lose people at this rate every day, every week without knowing what the problem is, where are we going to end Msholozi?

Msholozi will remember that there have been few occasions since I have arrived if there is something that is not right I contact him speedily.  Likewise the person at the back there, the Regional Chairman of the ANC, I contact him and tell him.  I contact him and say, "Hey brother, there is something that is not right, Hlomuka."  I say if indeed, friends, our House is so black where are we going to?  Let us forget about being haughty and thinking a lot of ourselves.  Let us work for the people.

People have never been fools, they know the people that work and they also know the people that do not work.  I am talking about the people.  Who of us today would say, "Let us go to my station and check to see what is going on"?  We could take perhaps two or three days so that you and others could see how much the people are suffering, Msholozi.

This is a problem which deprives one of sleep, where the phone rings until daybreak for us who live among the people.  Perhaps those people who live in town and in flats are lucky, but we who live with the people, we have a problem in that our phones ring until daybreak, and we are told there has been an attack at such and such a place, so-and-so has been shot, so-and-so has been killed.  One is not able to get any rest.

We are saying therefore to the Safety and Security, that is our hope indeed.  When we shout for our hope it should jump quickly at our station.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:.  [The member has two minutes only].

MR G E BHENGU: TRANSLATION:  Two?  I only have a little time left.  At our station, Chairman, if you go there quickly and you think you are trying to save time, when you get there you are told that there are no vehicles.  All over the place there are no motor vehicles.  When you ask for the station commander you are told, "We do not know where he lives".  When you ask for the second-in-command you are told he is not at his place of residence.

Our problem, Mr Chairman, is that this Department appears not to know whether it is coming or going.  They say a new Commissioner has arrived, that when I got there after asking for everybody, I took my phone and I phoned him and when I phoned I was told that he will require an appointment, and I said, "We are still sitting in the bush indeed".  If we have a situation where in the light of so much damage we still have people who say they require an appointment with Bhengu, seeing that Bhengu works for the people.

I am saying where is Mr Mufamadi?  When are we going to get an opportunity, you and I and others, so that we can tell him the truth as it is.  We know ~Inkosi~ Ngubane well, because he knows about the departments that he is in control of.  If ~Inkosi~ Ngubane is told to do a job he does it.

He is not a man who sleeps.  Let him be given this Department.  He will satisfy you.  ~Inkosi~ Ngubane does his job, and will do the job.  He will realise also that the Zulus of KwaZulu-Natal know how to work.  They are able to work together.  Let us, my friends, stop bluffing the people, saying we fight for the people we have come to sit in Parliament whereas in fact we have as yet not done anything.

Therefore my request, Mr Chairman, is that my brother Bheki Cele, I am requesting him in your presence, Chairman, that he should accompany me to go and see the place where I live, that indeed we are suffering to this extent.  He, as the Chairman of the Committee, let him see indeed how the people are suffering, a problem that I am ever afraid to explain, because I thought I was just trying to make you see that suffering is indeed upon us.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON: [Thank you the hon member].  On the list I will now call upon the hon member Mrs C E Galea.  You have nine minutes to speak.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Chairperson.  Minister of Safety and Security, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, hon members.  Vote 9 covers administration, the civilian Secretariat and the Ministry.  Devolution of power has not been passed onto the Province so we are still controlled nationally.

I agree with our Chairperson, Mr Cele, on security for schools. Unfortunately this is not covered in our budget so we will actually have to fight for this at National level.  As the Constitution reads, and I am going to read it again, section 206(3):

	Each province is entitled to:

	(a)	to monitor police conduct;
	(b)	to oversee the effectiveness and efficiency of the police service, including receiving reports on the police service;
	(c)	to promote good relations between the police and the community;
	(d)	to assess the effectiveness of visible policing; and
	(e)	to liaise with the Cabinet members responsible for policing with respect to crime and policing in the province.

This is just to show that staffing is a National competence, not Provincial.  Every member sitting here knows of someone who has been touched by this violence and crime, which we are living with.  I believe, as I think it was the hon member Burrows said, crime is priority one.  It is of concern to me, and I know the hon member Mrs Cronje mentioned for environmental reasons that our Minister is the Minister of Traditional Authorities, Environment and Safety and Security.

I just believe that he is an very hon member.  I have seen him in action and his working in the community.  He works very hard, and with all these hot spots that we have in our police areas, we definitely need a small multi-party group of MPPs to go out to all these hot spots as well as the other areas, to show the people we are there, we are supportive of the police and we want to stop crime.

What concerns me is the ANC talks with the IFP re a peace plan.  No one except a select few know about it.  Talk about being transparent and all inclusive.  To bring about peace in this Province you have got to bring all role-players together.  That is the parliamentarians, the church leaders, the labour, business and we can go on and on.  It has got to be an all inclusive team because they must be made part of the solution.

I would like to congratulate our Premier because my grass-roots people tell me that when he talks to the communities he tells them to work with the police, and that I think is wonderful.  Not like some parties who tell their people not to talk to the police and not to give them information.  How can we get peace in our Province when people still tell them these things?

There are many important topics to be discussed.  Rape, violence against women, our portfolio bosberaad, citizens against crime and violence, hijacking, white collar crime, the number of policemen and women killed, the number of officers taking voluntary retrenchment packets, security companies, attacks on farming communities.  Incidentally, I am glad to see that those figures are now in our stats.  It was something we asked for and thank you very much to the Department.

Something very close to my heart, and I think I am the unofficial whip for the Peace Committee, I would like to talk about our Peace Committee and Community Policing Forums.

The Peace Committee's mission statement is to strive to promote peace and stability in KwaZulu-Natal by means of peace-keeping, that is monitoring.  Peace-making, that is negotiation, and peace-building which is development facilitation, thereby creating a spirit of mutual understanding and tolerance among people.

I know there are many members of Parliament here who have asked what the Peace Committee is doing?  What are the goals?  But we do have a problem.  I am going to mention it further on.  This is one mechanism for attaining peace, if we all support the mission and try and make it work.

As I said, I am the unofficial whip.  We have a meeting on 22 May, 1:30 for two.  The notice was sent out on 29 April from the KwaZulu-Natal Peace Committee and it is also on the Parliamentary schedule for meetings.  Last night I received a fax from one of our Portfolio Committees of which eight of our members are committee members and now they have called a meeting for 2 o'clock on the same day.  So I appeal to all my colleagues on the Peace Committee, if you want peace in this Province please attend that meeting.  We have a number of important things for our Province to discuss.  Well, I just hope that we will have a quorum.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MRS C E GALEA:  What are Community Policing Forums?  It made my heart so happy when I heard the hon members Ainslie as well as Mthembu talk about community policing.  This is the way to get down to your grass-roots people.  How many other members of Parliament attend community policing forums or even know they have got community forums in their areas, or has one not been established in your area?

AN HON MEMBER:  Do you want a show of hands?

MRS C E GALEA:  I would love to.  In the South African Police Service Annual Report we read that there are 170 community police fora and 47 sub fora.  My golly, I am sure we could double that by the end of the year if we all just took that little effort to get to the community and as my colleagues have spoken about community forums, this is one way where the police and the community are equal and you can work out plans to stop crime.

All right.  Now I am going to lecture you because I believe nobody really knows the policy framework for community policing.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MRS C E GALEA:  Oh my golly.  The Constitution prescribes community policing as a style of policing to be adopted by the South African Police Service to meet the safety and security requirements of all people in the country.  Fundamental transformation is therefore needed to ensure that the South African Police Services develop a community orientated police service, which adopts a consultative approach to meeting the safety and security needs in the community it serves, a service which therefore becomes more accessible and acceptable and more efficient and effective.

The definition.  Community policing is a philosophy that guides police management styles and operational strategies and emphasises the establishment of police community partnerships, that is where you are equal, and a problem solving approach responsive to the needs of the community.  It is based on the assumption that the objectives of the SAPS, namely the prevention, combatting and investigation of crime, the maintenance of public order, the provision of protection and security of the inhabitants of the Republic and their property and upholding and enforcing the law can only be achieved through the collaborative effect of the SAPS and other Government institutions, the organisation and structure of civil society and individual citizens.

General principles of community policing is the respect and protection of human rights.  Community policing informs, guides and sustains all policing activities.  All members of the SAPS should participate in community policing and problem solving initiatives.  Problem solving should be based on a consultative approach.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you.  I just hope people will find out more about this.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you so much.  On the list, I now call upon the hon member Mr M B Gwala.  You have nine minutes to speak.

MR M B GWALA:  Mr Chairman and the hon House.  I am very grateful to debate on the vote for Safety and Security in this Province.  Without safety and without security human life is vulnerable.

I appreciate the fact that the Minister responsible for this Department is an ~Inkosi~.  ~Amakhosi~ are the custodians of law and order.  Where there is no ~Inkosi~ chaos and disorder reigns, as Mr Ntombela has clearly put it.

The Premier of the Province was perfectly right when he appointed ~Inkosi~ of KwaZashuke, ~Inkosi~ N J Ngubane to be the Minister of Safety and Security in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

I was impressed by the way in which the budget speech was tabled by the Minister.  I wish to make a few remarks as a contribution to what the Minister had said.

A number of things anyway have been said by the previous speakers including Mr Ntombela and Mr Cele.  Right from the outset, I want to express my dissatisfaction about the police appointments, as Mr Cele pointed out.  This problem has been with us for some time now.  The National Department of Safety and Security is acting on its own, by liaising with the Provincial Commissioners and excluding the Provincial Ministers and Portfolio Committees on Safety and Security.  This is an untenable situation.  The police appointments must involve every interested party, particularly the Provincial Minister, who must be at the centre stage together with the Provincial Commissioner of Police.

We have noted with interest the way in which the appointments are done by the Provincial Commissioner, in conjunction with the National Ministry.  It is a matter of disappointment because you find that senior posts in the police force are given to whites.  Key areas such as Durban and Pietermaritzburg are seen as sacrosanct and can be commissioned by a white officer not a black officer.  This racist tendency in the police force must cease to exist.  We are the victims of police appointments.  I recall, that when we were in the KwaZulu Legislative Assembly a situation of this nature occurred when a Commissioner for KwaZulu Police was appointed by Pretoria.

The National Constitution has compounded the situation because the Provincial Minister is just a scarecrow, and the police business is between the National Ministry and the Provincial Commissioner who cracks the whip.  I think it is time now to desert the old order and introduce a new order in the police force.

I want to go further to say that in the past we had a situation where people were murdered in broad daylight, but only to find that the police failed to apprehend the assassins.  This was a frustrating situation which resulted in people deciding to take the law into their own hands.  That situation still exists in the present police force.  How are we going to overcome this?

The surprising increase of crime in our society is incredible.  The only way that we can be assisted to reduce crime, is for the National Government to devolve power to provinces and that provinces must be given autonomous powers, so that they will be able to fight crime on their own.

The devolution of power can also help the Provincial Minister to effectively control the situation, without being overrun by the National Department of Safety and Security.

This competition of departments results in a poor performance to the detriment of the people.  We will always complain about the Constitution for this country because it creates problems for us in every sphere.  As I have indicated earlier on, the Provincial Commissioner of Safety and Security is responsible to the National Commissioner and National Minister.  That alone creates a problem for the Provincial Minister who has no power over the Provincial Commissioner who, in the case of KwaZulu-Natal, feels at ease to treat members of Parliament as a kindergarten master treating kids.  The Provincial Commissioner has so many powers and is abusing such powers in a manner that is beyond comprehension.

I will never forget the way in which the Provincial Commissioner treated me late last year, when I made a statement regarding the community complaints after the Inchanga massacre.

The Provincial Commissioner of KwaZulu-Natal paged me on 30 December 1996, while I was attending the funeral of the late Her Royal Highness Morgina kaMathole Buthelezi, a full sister of ~Inkosi~ Mangosuthu Buthelezi.  

I immediately called back to the Commissioner, who demanded that I give him an account of the statement I made about the negative attitude of the police, prior to the Inchanga massacre.

I gave him an account as he demanded.  I told him that the IFP leaders in Tin Town complained to me about the police who refused to take the matter seriously, when tipped off that there would be an attack the following day.  I told him that I was also interviewed by the SABC, when I conveyed the same message I received from the people.

I must tell you that I was speaking from a position of strength as an elected leader.  The Provincial Commissioner told me that he would send someone to take a statement from me and statements from those who told me about this.  Two days later I received a phone call from Advocate Neville Melville of the Independent Complaints Directorate wanting to meet me about the same statement, not about the massacre.  I told him that I would be available at home for a week.  Nothing was forthcoming either from the Provincial Commissioner, General Serfontein or from Advocate Neville Melville.

I was shocked to hear three months ago that the report had been tabled before the National Minister of Safety and Security, Mr Sydney Mufamadi.  The report ruled that Mr Gwala's allegations were not true.  I think it is important to defend myself because if I do not then a wrong perception will be created, and that this allegation that I was lying will be tied around my neck for the rest of my life.

In fact what I said to the media was exactly what the people of Inchanga told me.  They had a right to tell me as one of their leaders.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR M B GWALA:  They also told the mourners in front of the former Premier, Dr F T Mdlalose, and the hon Minister of Economic Affairs, Mr J G Zuma and various senior leaders of both the IFP and ANC during the funeral of the six victims of the Tin Town massacre.  The people I am talking about are still alive and have not yet been approached by the police.

I felt so aggrieved that the police decided to crucify me for no other reasons than to cover their backs at my expense.  Over my dead body will I ever accept this.

The report which was tabled before the National Minister of Safety and Security, Mr Sydney Mufamadi, was a document cooked up in the dark rooms by the police, aimed to mislead the Minister and the people of South Africa.  I challenge the validity of that document.  I also request that the whole report be withdrawn so that new interviews can take place.

I am saying this because the complainants and I were not approached as yet but the report has been completed without an atom of truth in it.

I am worried about the involvement of the police in criminal activities such as car hijacking, bank robberies and so on and so forth.  Then you find that even the top brass of the police force are involved in cover-up situations.  We are not going to tolerate this kind of practice, and we suggest that autonomous powers be given to provinces so that Provincial Ministers will be able to curb a deteriorating situation within the police force.


TRANSLATION:  I end, Chairman, by saying the only thing indeed that the police have done in this Province of KwaZulu-Natal, was to change the number-plates that began with the letters ZG, and those that said ZP, which were the police number-plates of the KwaZulu Police and they were changed to SAPS.  

That was the work indeed which was given priority, dockets were left.  They stopped catching and looking for people who were killed with firearms as we have a situation where Inkatha has more than 430 leaders killed.  Thank you.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will now call upon the hon member Mrs J M Downs for four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I wish I had a lot of time on this particular subject, because there is so much that I want to say.  I will just start off by saying, very quickly, that I believe that the problem of crime in this country can be laid squarely and fairly at the door of the National Minister Mufamadi, because in order to give policy feet it has to be funded and our police are underpaid, underfunded and undertrained.

If you ask these members who guard us, standing outside the door here, what kind of salaries they get and compare it to the kind of salaries that we get it is actually shocking.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MRS J M DOWNS:  But having said that, because I have got such a short time, I want to focus very particularly on the crime of rape.  Everybody stands up, many people in this House have stood up and said we have got to do something about the rape statistics.  I want to talk about two actual rapes that occurred, and my knowledge of them, to give you an idea of what is not being done and how it is not being addressed.

The first case is the case of Mrs Catherine Sheppard, who has given me permission to use her name and her details if it will help to prevent something like this happening to other people.  She was raped by two or three people at half past one one morning and the police arrived.  Now to their credit they were very kind, they dealt with her very sensitively.  So that much at least has changed.  But they did not follow the protocols when they were dealing with the taking of her statement and the evidence, because they took her to the district surgeon who was unavailable, although he was on duty at the time he could not be contacted.  Instead of following the protocols and going down the next roster and going to the district surgeon who was in charge, in order to get the correct evidence, they took her then to a private doctor who refused to see her.

It was quite a shocking situation and she ultimately ended up not going and having evidence taken.  So there were no semen samples and so on because protocols were not followed.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS J M DOWNS:  Can I stop and have my time back.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MRS J M DOWNS:  May I continue?  I hope I am going to have that time back.  In that situation, if the proper protocols were followed, there would have been a case.  Even if those rapists are ever caught, which I very much doubt, they will never be brought to book for the rape because there was no evidence because protocols were not properly followed.

Last week I had occasion to tell you, that a member of my family, last weekend actually became the latest in the rape statistics. To date, this was a rape of a different kind, the perpetrators are known to us.  Three of them, despite having been named, one of them the surname was not given but the place where his wife works, was given.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MRS J M DOWNS:  So he could be traced through that.  Of those three perpetrators only one has been arrested, despite names and addresses having been given.

I have got a serious problem with this and I really think that we need to pay more attention.  I am very glad to see that in this document specialised family violence child abuse and sexual offence units in high priority areas are going to be instituted.  I submit to this House that it is too little and too late.  We actually need to have much more priority placed on the prevention of rape before it actually occurs, on the prevention of child abuse before it occurs.  We need to have our officers properly trained in protocols, we need to have them properly trained in how to take evidence from traumatised victims, because in cases of sexual assault the victims are normally very traumatised.  We need to have prosecutions increased and that would mean that we need to have more rapists caught.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member's time is over.

MRS J M DOWNS:  And we need to spend a priority of time and money on this.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  On the list I will now call upon the hon member Mr Rehman.  You have eight minutes to speak.

MR M F REHMAN:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I firstly congratulate our hon Minister of Safety and Security, ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, for taking on a very, very hot potato portfolio.  We from the IFP support his budget fully, though we all know that once again we are being sabotaged by big daddy in Pretoria.

Our aim to inform and restore confidence in a police service that emerged from the ~~apartheid~~ era, in tatters, has failed.  The estimated 300 plans and projects presented to restructure and reform policing has also failed.  Four of the 20 most serious crime categories have shown a marked increase.  Only murder has declined from 26 832 in 1994 to 25 782 last year, but this is almost certainly due to an abatement in political killings.  The murder of policemen by organised syndicates and hitmen continues unabated.

Transformation has seen the dumping of military ranks and the introduction of community police forums and a civilian secretary.  From January 1995 to January 1997, 34 422 members left the police service.  The problem of thousands of policemen without driver's licences and with an education of Std 8, has placed severe constraints on the transformation process.

How could the ~~apartheid~~ Government recruit members without a driver's licence into the force?  A police officer without a driver's licence is like a carpenter who cannot handle a wood saw.

Management of resources is the main problem, with 2 629 mostly senior policemen having taken retrenchment packages since September 1995.

Although, we in the IFP will abide by the Constitution, it must be remembered that there are many points that need to be revisited.  Let us give our hon Minister ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, and our Provincial Commissioner, Commissioner Chris Serfontein, more powers to rule our Province effectively.

Reconciliation, co-operation and nation building have become central themes of our President Mandela.  We commend him for that, but unfortunately the spirit of reconciliation has dimmed and the country is reverting more and more, to a pattern of crime and intolerance.

The upsurge in incidents of housebreaking, car hijackings and crime in general has severely impacted on the quality of life.  Fortunately communities in collaboration with the South African Police Services are organising themselves and establishing neighbourhood watches.  This concept has no doubt proven to be successful.  The civilian is the eyes and ears of the police.  With greater participation of business and communities the incidence of crime can be effectively curtailed.

Gone are the days when one could turn a blind eye to crime.  Whilst this is still the case, greater community awareness needs to be instilled to counter crime.  Crime and the question of security has negatively affected the flow of tourists to this country.  However, it was pleasing to note that with effective policing in KwaZulu-Natal, a rather peaceful Easter weekend was enjoyed by visitors to our beautiful Province.

With the impending opening of the convention centre in KwaZulu-Natal, our Province is poised to attract visitors from far and near.  The spin-offs from this venture can be enormous, if only we can succeed in combatting crime significantly and improving our security mechanisms effectively.

The hon National Minister Mufamadi, accused Commissioner Fivaz and his team of ineptitude.  Commissioner Fivaz countered by accusing the ANC Minister of political meddling.  The police themselves have acknowledge that they have a severe shortage of skills.  This is true of the entire Government, not just because skilled people are leaving the service, but because special skills are required to manage the transition and transformation process.  The problem is aggravated by the fact that police themselves have become victims, as if deliberately targeted by criminals.  Last year 72 officers were killed on duty around the country.

The fact that crime patterns are different in different parts of the country means that regional strategies need to be devised by the areas concerned.  This is best done by the authorities in that area and not from Pretoria as is currently done.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR M F REHMAN:  It is for this reason that we in the IFP believe that more policing powers be given to the provinces.

The Government's right-sizing programme has set back the fight against crime by two to four years.  The New York Police Department, for example, has 38 000 police officers for 8 million people.  In KwaZulu-Natal, with a population of about 9 million, there are only about 20 000 police scattered over a very wide area. 

The situation becomes even more grave when policemen are implicated in incidents of theft and corruption.  With the greater understanding of the crime situation and strategic planning, the safety and security situation could improve.

It is not acceptable to us, when the National Minister of Safety and Security pitches up in our Province, without even notifying our hon Provincial Minister and the multi-party members of our Portfolio Committee.  There is something almost obscene about the lengths the Government is prepared to go to perform on the international stage, while at home the country is in the grip of a fire storm of lawlessness.

In Zaire we bend over backwards to get a corrupt and half dead dictator and a jumped up revolutionary, to talk to each other while there is little evidence that either is the master of his own destiny, never mind that of Zaire.  No one would deny that the economics and fates of African countries are interrelated, but it is by no means clear whether our young democracy is best suited to sorting out the problems of our neighbours.  Charity and stability and development begins at home.  I thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr A J Konigkramer.  You have nine minutes to speak.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER: [Mr Chairman, I will start in German.  I will ask Mr Redinger to interpret].

~Vorsitzender~, ~Das~ ~Grundgesetz~ ~unseres~ ~Landes~ ~verflichted~ ~uns~ ~die~ ~Muttersprachen~ ~SuedAfrikaner~ ~zu~ ~foerdern~.  ~Einer~ ~dieser~ ~Sprachen~ ~die~ ~im~ ~Grundegesetz~ ~ersheint~~is~ ~Deutsch~.

MR B H CELE:  Point of order.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Point of order.

MR B H CELE: 

TRANSLATION:  We want to hear and I do not think that that is one of the official languages to be used in this House.  We request that official languages be used in this House.  There are 11.  He can choose from those 11, but this language he must refrain from.  T/E

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Chairman, I am within my rights in the Constitution ...

MRS B S MOHLAKA:  Point of order.  The hon member has got a right to express his feelings in any language.  It will be translated into one of the 11 languages.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Ich moechte deshalb ein paar Woerter am beginn meiner Ansprache in Deustch sprechen.

MR B H CELE:  Mr Chairman, point of order.  Point of order, [I think we are being made fools of].  We are busy with official business. We are doing an official business here and then we are communicating in official languages.  Yes, he has but the Constitution allows us to hear in one of the 11 languages.  So we are not just playing marbles and all that, one of the official languages must be used in this House.  I want to plead with the Chairperson.

THE CHAIRPERSON: 
TRANSLATION:  I ask the hon member, in order for him to get assistance, let him use this because all languages have the same right.  Because of that I ask the member to continue.  T/E

AN HON MEMBER:  I do not know what you are saying.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Chairman, point of order.  I mean looking at the Constitution, section 6, the official languages of the Republic and there is a list.  I cannot find German.  The only place where German is found is about the Pan South African Language Board which must promote and ensure respect for all languages and then German is listed there.  Now that is something the Pan South African Language Board must do.  We have got 11 official languages.  As the previous hon member has said, people must address this House in one of those 11.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Chairman, may I suggest the hon member be given his extra time.  You know constitutionally German is not an official language but we have a translator.  If the translator is prepared to translate ...

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A RAJBANSI:  May I suggest that we go to the Constitutional Court for a ruling whether German can be used.  [LAUGHTER]

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Chairman, in the interests of progress, I will continue in English and what I will say to you, Mr Chairman, I have proved my point, because the problems that have been caused in this Province are exactly as expressed by the hon Chairman of the Portfolio Committee is intolerance and that is what the ANC has demonstrated again, intolerance.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR B H CELE:  I am constitutional, not intolerant.  I am constitutional.

AN HON MEMBER:  Sit down.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Mr Chairman, I trust that I will be allowed now to begin again.  I will simply say this, that I am a South African of German extraction and the one thing that I am very sensitive about is the fact that in Germany, enormous crimes were committed in the name of the German people and they were committed because ordinary people kept quiet and I for one will not be kept quiet and I do not care how uncomfortable it makes people, particularly the hon members opposite.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  In this regard, I wish in particular now to refer to the Richmond area, and it has demonstrated exactly the point I wanted to make.  For more than a year, I and other members, sought to put the spotlight of truth on the dastardly and evil things that were going on in the community at Richmond.  And for more than a year my colleagues opposite spent a huge amount of energy, as they have done now, to prevent unpalatable truths from coming out.  Twice my colleagues opposite sought to censure me and sought to have me hauled before the disciplinary committee of this House.  Both those two gentlemen owe me an apology.

AN HON MEMBER:  Yes, right now.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  I noticed earlier that a member of the family of murdered policeman Lauren Pillay was in the House.  I attended on March 17 a memorial service for that particular policeman and I can assure you that the family of that policeman who was murdered savagely and in cold blood is still devastated.  We in this Parliament, we owe that family an apology and we need an explanation as to why these killers of the son and husband of that family have not been arrested, because the killers are known.

Well over a year ago, I told the National Commissioner and the Regional Commissioner, who is in this House, in the presence of the Safety and Security Committee that one of the killers had been seen sitting in Mr Sifiso Nkabinde's lounge in the presence of a senior policeman.  Now that is more than a year ago.  Why was nothing done about it?  Two days later, two days after I had told the National Commissioner this, three Mountain Rise policemen, including Mr Lauren Pillay, were murdered in cold blood.  Two days.

We also have drawn attention that in the minutes of the Community Police Forum at Richmond, Mr Sifiso Nkabinde said that if any members, other than the Richmond Police, come into the area they will be killed and the threat was carried out, policemen were killed.

I revealed to the Safety and Security Committee, that on another occasion, 13 policemen in a police Caspir saw the two murderers wanted for the murder of those policemen.  They were not arrested, ostensibly because they feared coming under AK47 fire.  Another reason that was given to me officially, by the Commissioner, was that a member of Sifiso Nkabinde's family was on this Caspir and that they feared retribution.  What is going on here?  How is it possible for people to hold the police force to ransom on issues like this?  It is a scandal.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  A further issue that demands an answer, is why the senior ANC leadership remained silent for so long about the terrible truths they knew about Mr Nkabinde's action at Richmond?  Had they spoken up earlier, and had ANC members of this Parliament not sought to frustrate that inquiry, those three policemen would be alive.  They would not be dead and lots of other members would not have been dead.  Let me say in all humility, that history will judge you very harshly for that.

Why did the Chairman of the Safety and Security Committee, Mr Bheki Cele, why did he preside when Mr Sifiso Nkabinde was awarded the freedom of what his colleague now call a concentration camp?  We need answers, Mr Chairman.

AN HON MEMBER:  They knew that.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Secondly, the famed ITU and its main sponsor, Mr Howard Varney owe this Province and this country an explanation about Richmond.  I have it on the best of authority, that everything that we know and everything that the National leadership of the ANC knew, the ITU has known for a very long time, and they have done nothing about it.  The murder of people, the blood of those people that have been murdered is on their hands because they did nothing when they knew what was going on there.

I want to make a few concluding remarks and I want to address myself, I want to say something about Captain Meeding.  I shall measure my words very carefully.

Firstly, I believe it can be shown quite conclusively that that policeman misled a committee of this House.  He did not tell the truth about the deal he had made with the ANC's Mr Nkabinde, and he shamelessly tried to hide his tracks by besmirching the IFP.

Some of the hon members opposite condoned this misrepresentation, - nay they defended it - because it suited them politically.  That is a disgrace, an absolute disgrace.  I could reveal more about Captain Meeding but today is not the time.  All I wish to say is that I have been astounded to note that he now works for NITU.  NITU is responsible to the National Minister, and I am even more astounded to reveal that his name is given as the contact person to track down the killers.  That is a disgrace and I believe that it is imperative that that man be removed from his position forthwith, until the truth about Richmond is brought out.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  I just want to say one last thing in conclusion, and that is that after the committee finally agreed to the appointment of a commission, I and my family were submitted to the most unbelievable threats.  I have been used to that but this time it was completely unspeakable and it came from all sides, to such an extent that the police actually advised me to leave the country, which I did.

Now, Mr Chairman, in conclusion I want to ask this House, how is it possible that a member of Parliament, but I do not regard myself as any different, but this has become the ground rule of politics in this country, and that is intimidation.  The more you intimidate, the more you think you can get away with it and it is time we in this Province put a halt to that.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will now call upon the hon member Mr J D Mkhwanazi, four minutes.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, if I were not an astute politician I would be confused and devastated about what is being said.

I was very disturbed to hear what Miss Xulu said about what is happening in Umlazi.  We had hoped that the issue of political violence had subsided, particularly between the IFP and the ANC, and some of us who believe in peace and the fact that the leaders are talking, we did not expect what came from Miss Xulu.

In this regard I must appeal further to the leaders of the IFP and the ANC not to be discouraged but to continue and talk amongst themselves but most importantly, it is not enough to talk at the top, they must go to their grass-roots.  I have been to different areas that when you get there they say this is our domain, we do not want the PAC here.  It is going to bring violence or it is going to bring a different ideology, and people go around talking about free political activity.  I appeal to my brothers and sisters, I think I must say it publicly, I am very encouraged by the fact that they are talking amongst themselves behind closed doors.  I think that will give us the solution if they talk face to face.  No television, no radio, no publicity and tell one another truths and even confess to one another.  At the end of the day we will have peace.

Having said that, on the matter of the police resources.  Yes, we are short of resources.  I agree with everything which Mr Cele said and also collaborated by Mr Gwala, although they are from opposite directions.  There is a lack of resources but even the little bit that there is, is not evenly distributed.  I live in Umlazi, I think it is one of the biggest, if it is not the biggest township in KwaZulu-Natal.  If you go to the police station at Umlazi they will tell you that they only have one van, therefore they cannot do anything.  At one time a man was murdered right across from my gate.  We discovered the body at 6 o'clock in the morning, that body stayed there until 11 o'clock because there was no vehicle to come and remove it.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:   I had to phone Durban personally and fight those people that if this man were white, this poor woman and children looking at that body and nobody could touch that body before the police came.  I think something has to be done.

What I want to end with, Mr Chairman, I know all these things are good things that have been spoken about, some in a very hot matter.  I am glad the Minister has brought all his top brass, they are here.  I think what they want to hear is criticism and I think also what they want to hear is the assurance that we will support them.  We cannot support the police unless we ourselves are united against crime.  It is a very serious thing, this thing of crime.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member's time is over please.

MR J D MKHWANAZI:  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  On the list I will call upon the hon member Mr P Powell.  You have nine minutes to speak.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I would like to start off by congratulating our hon Minister who is making his first budget presentation in his new Portfolio and welcome the Secretary of Safety and Security, Mr van der Merwe.  I am also glad to see that this year we have been graced with the presence of the Provincial Commissioner, Commissioner Serfontein.

On a more sombre note I would like to pay tribute to the unsung heroes and heroines of the SAPS who have laid down their lives in the fight against crime, during the past year.  Let us hope that they have not died in vain.

We have pleasure in supporting the budget presented by the hon Minister, but I would like to note some reservations.  Despite the lesson in elementary political semantics given to us by our hon chairman, Mr Bheki Cele, I remain unconvinced.  Mr Cele gave us an insight into the ANC's dictionary of political jargon.  He expected us to understand the difference between devolution and assignment.  A commentator once observed that in political discussion heat is inverse proportionately to reason and knowledge.  This certainly was true in today's lecture on political vocabulary by the hon member.

Fortunately the clamour for increased powers to be assigned to provinces has not been led by KwaZulu-Natal or the IFP, but rather by the MECs of provinces which are led by ANC Governments.  It is the demands for powers from the ANC Government in these provinces which has led to the long awaited Shubane report on the devolution of police powers.

I do not care and the voters of this Province do not care what Mr Cele chooses to call it, but we all know what is urgently needed; give the provinces the tools to do the job!  Have the confidence in Provincial Governments to join in this fight to bring about an end to the greatest crisis which faces our democracy.

People are sick and tired of excuses and rhetorical devices used to explain away non-delivery in this vital field.  It is clear to anybody that the present regime which we have in policing is not working.  It would be acceptable and perhaps understandable if we were dealing with a shining example of success in policing.  We would then perhaps be able to stomach the kind of lecture we were given on the difference between devolution and assignment, but the harsh reality is that policing in this country is a dismal and absolute failure.

AN HON MEMBER:  We need a revolution.

MR P POWELL:  I would like to call for the building of capacity at all levels.  I am not only talking here about Provincial capacity but also the empowerment of Local Government to join us in this fight against crime.  We cannot afford to discard any allies in this war which we have to fight.

The bankruptcy of this imbalanced relationship between the National Government and the Provincial is nowhere more evident than in the behaviour of our own Provincial Commissioner.  This House is being insulted by the kind of treatment meted out to it by him.

The Provincial Commissioner recently released a document entitled, "Policing priorities and objectives for 1997/1998", at a function in Chatsworth.  It was significant that neither the Minister nor the Secretary were present, and I am led to believe that they were not even invited.  What is worse, however, is that our own parliamentary Safety and Security Portfolio Committee did not see this document before it was released.

Given the kind of clamour that there is from parties across the board for us to get serious about crime, this kind of rejection of Parliament's role in overseeing policy is absolutely unacceptable.  This insult was compounded by the fact that the Provincial Safety and Security Portfolio up until ten minutes before this debate, had never seen this document.  We met the hon Minister before this and I had sympathy with him when members expressed their concern about never seeing this document before.

This state of affairs is wholly unacceptable.  One wonders why POPCRU, Lawyers for Human Rights and Mary de Haas of all people, were consulted on this document and our Parliamentary Committee was excluded.

Perhaps after reading it we can be grateful that we do not have to be held responsible for the contents of this document.  I compared it briefly with another document called, "Policing priorities and objectives for 1997/1998", surprisingly the same title which was released by the National Minister, and surprise-surprise there is no difference between the two.  What we have here is a document which parrots word for word his master's voice from Pretoria.  Not a scrap, not a shred of evidence of any independent thought.  Not a single example of taking into account the unique priorities which this Province has when it comes to fighting crime.  That is unacceptable.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR P POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I think that this House demands that it be taken seriously, and I would ask respectfully, that the Provincial Commissioner remembers that our democracy has placed a responsibility on us to oversee and to ensure that the voice of the people is heard, when it comes to setting Government priorities and establishing policy.

I recently in this House touched on the issue of political interference in support of a point made by my hon colleague Mr Ngidi, and I would like to assure the hon member Mr Jeffery that to the best of my opinion, Deputy Minister Matthews shares all of Commissioner Fivaz's concerns about political interference.

In this House, we have seen in recent weeks, a barrage of pressure brought on senior management of the police.  Mr Konigkramer has alluded to the fiasco of Captain Meeding.  It has a sequel.  Now that it suited the ANC, pressure was placed on the Provincial Commissioner to remove Captain Meeding, which he of course forthwith did and replaced him with a senior superintendent drawn from Pietermaritzburg, Delport.

Not satisfied, Minister Mufamadi once again interfered and sent his political super cop from Pretoria.

AN HON MEMBER:  The one with the bushy eyebrows.

MR P POWELL:  Bushy Engelbrecht, someone who has a proven track record of listening clearly to his master's voice and has sent him down here to take over the investigation.

I would like to leave you with one thought, I know that my time is finished.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member's time is over please.

MR P POWELL:  The SAPS budget of R9 billion for a population of 42 million people, implies that every member of the population is entitled to 58c worth of policing services per day.  I would put it to this House that you get what you pay for.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.  I will now call upon the hon member Mr J H Jeffery, 15 minutes.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I want to start by responding to the issue of Richmond because it is an issue that Mr Konigkramer has raised now, and it is an issue that has been mentioned on earlier occasions during this budget session.  Mr Konigkramer has particular said that the ANC sought to frustrate the inquiry.

Just to actually set out things properly: assertions were made by Mr Konigkramer regarding problems in the Richmond area.  We proposed and supported the setting up of a subcommittee to look into more detail at those concerns because we did not think it was correct for allegations to be made without actually doing that.  So a subcommittee was duly set up.

The subcommittee ran into problems over the terms of reference that it was meant to follow, but it did hold a number of meetings and it did call a number of witnesses.  It became apparent during the progress of the subcommittee that this was probably not the appropriate vehicle to continue further with the issue, that the appropriate vehicle was actually for proper policing and proper police investigations into the matters.

AN HON MEMBER:  That is your opinion.

MR J H JEFFERY:  That is my opinion, yes.

AN HON MEMBER:  It is his speech.

MR J H JEFFERY:  It is my speech not yours.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

AN HON MEMBER:  Hey, Wessel, thula.

MR J H JEFFERY:  So it became apparent and I thought it was generally the agreement of the full Committee that this was not necessarily the appropriate body to continue further.  There were proposals from the IFP side for a commission of inquiry, my own feeling on this issue was concern, that if there is a problem of intimidation of witnesses, if you are going to take a witness out and put him or her into witness protection, you may as well do that for the criminal case which will result in people hopefully being convicted, rather than for a commission of inquiry that makes findings which actually do not have any force or effect.

Just to read from submissions that I made.  I personally had never said that Richmond was not a no-go area.  The submission I made was that on the basis of the evidence ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Chairman, would the hon member take a question?

MR J H JEFFERY:  I will take a question at the end.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J H JEFFERY:  I will take a question at the end if I have got time.  I will read from the submission I made.

	It is submitted that on the base of the evidence before the Committee, that a conclusive finding that sections of Richmond are a no-go area for the security forces cannot be made.  There are further witnesses who should be examined before the subcommittee would be in a position to make such a finding, in particular more members of the Richmond community and the SAPS from Richmond.

So just to clarify that, what was important with that inquiry that we followed the correct procedures, that we basically looked at evidence before us, and that things were placed before the Committee.  Not the views, the individual concerns of members.  If we were unable to have things before us because of intimidation or whatever else then we need to look at a different form.  So just to actually put that on the table.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Chair, if I could be protected please, I did hear you protecting other members.  The other point to raise, the question Mr Konigkramer raises, is the issue of Mr Cele attending the inauguration or the granting of the freedom of Richmond to Mr Nkabinde.  What about asking the question of why did Mr Powell attend his press conference after he had been kicked out of the ANC?  Why also has there been selected concentration on particular people?  I mean other names have been mentioned as potential police agents or possible police agents or possibly involved in violence.  Why has there not been focus on those people?  From our side the issue is not to conduct witch hunts but that there must be proper investigations.

AN HON MEMBER:  You will know the names.

MR J H JEFFERY:  The due process of law must work.

AN HON MEMBER:  They will come out.

MR J H JEFFERY:  If somebody has committed a crime there needs to be a proper investigation, a prosecution and hopefully a conviction if they are guilty.  Also just on that issue, to take up the question that the hon Mr Ntombela raised earlier about myself going and interfering with the police, if I heard him correctly, and getting bail.

MRS B S MOHLAKA:  Point of order.  Point of order, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order! Order!

MRS B S MOHLAKA:  With due respect we address a member as honourable.  Thank you.

MR J H JEFFERY:  I did say the honourable with respect, Mr Chairman.  If the hon member over there could listen.

AN HON MEMBER:  They do not listen.

MR J H JEFFERY:  I mean I am quite astounded by that.  Obviously if a member of the ANC gets arrested I will phone the police and try and find out if they can get bail.  I will not ask the police to bend the rules and grant bail when they are not entitled to it, and I understand that members of the IFP have done similar things.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!

MR T D NTOMBELA: (Whip):  Mr Chairman, I do not know whether the hon member will take a question.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order please.

MR J H JEFFERY:  No, Mr Chairman.  I have said I will take questions at the end.  Let me move on.  Mr Chairman, I am not surprised that the police in this Province are experiencing problems, or the police in the whole country.  It is a difficult past that the police are coming from, from being an active agent of oppression and suppression of the ANC, the PAC and other organisations into a police service.

AN HON MEMBER:  Not the DP and not the ACDP.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Not those other parties no.  So it is not surprising that there are morale problems, there are difficulties that senior management of the police have in adapting, and one has seen those difficulties.  That trip that the Committee went on, to Inchanga, to actually hear from a senior member of the area command in Maritzburg his general dissatisfaction with life, the situation there and policing in general.  That was unacceptable.

One is not surprised that there are those problems.  If the police service is to become an effective force they need to be properly structured, they need to be properly trained.  There are still difficulties with the fact that investigators seem to think, that the new Constitution takes away all their powers of investigation, and seem to be unable to adapt to the new dispensation where you do not solve cases by beating confessions out of potential suspects.

I wanted to deal with the question of the appointments.  Now I was quite surprised, I mean whilst some of the more senior appointments are made by the National Commissioner, not the National Minister, there is a process in the Province involving the Provincial Commissioner.  My understanding and maybe the hon Minister could give us clarity on the point, is that he is consulted on those appointments and that is how the appointments are then finally made.  Could the hon Minister tell us, was he consulted?  Did he object to any appointments?  What was the response?

The other problem with the appointments is that there was meant to be oversight of the appointment process by the Provincial Portfolio Committee, and as I think members of that Committee will know and the Commissioner will know, we had not exactly been taken seriously in that.  The Committee had not been informed about many of the interviews taking place.  So I do not think it is so much of a problem with the National Minister or his deputy as the case may be, but I think it is a problem of what goes on in this Province.

There have been problems as well, as the hon Mr Rajbansi had raised earlier, with potential people who could have been appointed or could have been eligible getting charged or getting investigated and those investigations taking an incredibly long time.  To this day it appears there still is no decision on those investigations.  When we have asked as the Committee for a response we are told the matter is sub judice which, with respect, is ridiculous because sub judice is when it is actually before court and this matter is not something that is before court.

I want to deal briefly with the question of the devolution of powers.  Certain members, and unfortunately one seems to have left the House, are like a stuck gramophone on the question of more powers, more powers.

No 1, this final Constitution, Act whatever, 200 of 1996.

AN HON MEMBER:  Never mind that.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Sorry.  Anyway, you know the one I am talking about, was passed by the Constitutional Assembly which was elected democratically by all the people of this country.  The people of this country voted for the people who voted for that Constitution, and it was supported as far as I know, by Mr Nel's Democratic Party, by the members of the National Party, unfortunately the IFP did not participate, but they had the opportunity.

That Constitution gives substantial powers, I would argue, at least of oversight to this Province.  The question we need to be looking at is, is the Province making use of those powers?  No 1, it seems that the members of this House are not aware of those powers.  The hon Mr Gwala spoke about the problems he had with the Provincial Commissioner.  But as the hon Mr Cele spoke earlier, the Provincial Executive, the Cabinet has the power to take disciplinary action against the Provincial Commissioner.  The Provincial Cabinet gave approval for the appointment of the Provincial Commissioner.

So there are certain powers.  There is the power of oversight.  Are we making full use of those powers?  Why is it that in the money allocated for community policing forums that we have only spent R33 000 instead of R3 million, over a year?  This budget on the back of the Minister's document, 1 April 1996 to 31 March 1997, as far as I can see that is a year.  We have spent just over a tenth of the budget.

AN HON MEMBER:  A hundredth.

MR J H JEFFERY:  A hundredth.  Sorry, a hundredth.  I am not a statistician.  But anyway, whatever it is, we have spent very, very little.  Why is it that we have not actually set up the structures?  We do not have a Provincial Secretary of Police.  We have got, with the presence of Mr van der Merwe, we have got a provisional Secretariat and I understand there is going to be an acting secretary appointed soon.

If we want more powers should we not be showing that we have the capacity to use them?  Should we not be showing that the powers granted to us in terms of the Constitution, in terms of oversight, are properly put into practice because for one thing, to support an aspect of Mr Powell's speech you know, Mr Powell has only recently joined us from the Senate.

MR W U NEL:  Do not be patronising.

MR J H JEFFERY:  I am not being patronising, Mr Nel.  That might be what you are used to but I am not.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR J H JEFFERY:  With respect to the Provincial Commissioner, we are treated as a joke, I think, by the Provincial Commissioner, the Standing Committee.  The Portfolio Committee raises issues.  The police do not respond, they come back and give half responses and we just do not get the responses that we are expecting.  
The representation of the Provincial Commissioner.  We had said we would like him to attend, if he cannot attend to send a permanent rep.  It took a year for his office to work out a permanent rep on that Committee, and in that period we kept on being given answers such as, "Oh well, he did not know there was a meeting taking place.  He was not aware that this issue was being discussed or that issue was being discussed".

The hon Mr Lee who unfortunately has left this House, raised I think a year and a half ago....

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Three minutes left.

MR J H JEFFERY: .....concerns at Eshowe regarding assaults by members of the army that were being investigated by the police and alleged assaults by members of the police.  The Portfolio Committee is still waiting for a response.  Then as Mr Powell had said, I mean this document, it is the first time we see it.  I see the Minister and the Provisional Secretary's photographs there but it is the first we have seen it.  We have seen this which looks like a whole lot of photocopied overhead projectors.  That was what we saw and it does not bear any resemblance to this.

If we are going to make effective use of the powers we have got, I would appeal to the hon Minister to make sure that the Provincial Commissioner treats the Safety and Security Portfolio Committee properly, that he works closely with it, consults it.  It is a Committee representing all the parties elected in this Legislature.  It can do a lot of good and it can give a lot of good input, and it can help with the programme and the processes that are going forward.  So before we actually start wanting more powers, let us make use of the powers we have got.

The issue, just very quickly, of recruitment.  My understanding is that there is not a moratorium on the recruitment for the specialised units.  There is an attempt to actually take stock of who is employed in the Province.  I would again appeal to the hon Minister to make sure that the Provincial Commissioner completes that process so that we do not just employ willy-nilly.  

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR J H JEFFERY:  Us the Province, all of us, Mr Singh.  You included.  Particularly the Provincial policing section.  I had heard of one department within the Province that felt there was not sufficient productivity so they doubled the staff and the productivity was even less.  There is a problem with absenteeism, with policemen not attending when they should be.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Let us actually correct those problems.  They may relate to morale, with people not being able to cope with the new order, the new dispensation, it may relate to frustration in terms of promotions, in terms of the length of time, the period they have worked, but let us deal with those problems first and then we can go on further into the question of recruitment.

The key issue, and I want to hammer it again and again.

MR W U NEL:  Mr Chairman, will the hon member take a question now since he appears to be finished?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Are you prepared to answer the question?

MR J H JEFFERY:  Mr Chairman, I said I would when I have finished.  I have not finished yet.  I would respectfully request that you tell the hon member not to keep wasting my time.  If I am finished I will get to his question.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Continue.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Thank you.  Mr Chairman, the key issue is let us make use of the existing powers that we have got under the Constitution.  You keep on here heckling from the other side of the House over the question of greater powers and how bad the National Government is.  Let us make use of what we have.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The member's time is over.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Was that including the time that I had to respond?

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Yes, sir.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

MR J H JEFFERY:  I will take the question, but my time is up.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS AND LAUGHTER

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will now ask the hon Minister ~Inkosi~ N J Ngubane to reply.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Safety and Security):  Mr Chairman and the hon House.  I think first and foremost let me thank the hon members for the manner in which they debated my budget speech.  I would like to thank them for the frankness, openness and even sometimes for the attacks and criticisms here and there.

Really, the unnecessary attacks on police will result in communities attacking our police.  In fact, I am not surprised that the attacks on police is just increasing in this fashion, because what I have got here from this hon House, this afternoon, really does not help my Department to improve the situation of policing in the Province.  We have been here listening to attacks, political fighting amongst political parties, parties fighting for power, parties blaming each other but using the police side of my Department.  I do not think we are going to tolerate that.

When people are preparing for a faction fight or for attacks in townships, they do not inform the police that, "Look police, today we want to fight and do you agree that we should go and fight".  People do not behave in that fashion.  They just fight.  The police will always be there with the aim of solving the situation.  Once the police are there then the people will start saying the police are favouring the IFP, the police are favouring the ANC, the police are favouring a certain faction.  I do not think this is the way we as politicians, especially as people who have been elected by our communities, should behave.  We must be the people who send a good messages to our people who elected us, that this is the correct manner in which to treat the police.

We agree with constructive criticism from the hon members.  We cannot run away from that, but just to use the police as a platform, where political parties are to come and fight one another here, really, it did not help me this afternoon.  The majority of the members who spoke here were just fighting for political power, as I have said, instead of contributing as to how to improve the police service in the Province.  In fact, I was more or less disappointed as far as this issue is concerned.

On promotions.  We have heard people talking about promotions and top structures dominated by whites and other things.  Nobody can run away from that.  At present I think the situation is still like that.  We have more white staff in the higher echelons of the Department, but I think another thing that we should remember is that democracy has just arrived, we do not have sufficient black people or other people to be appointed in the higher echelons.  At the same time, the time will never come when we will only be able to put blacks in the higher echelons.

Therefore what we are going to do as a Department is to promote the blacks, promote the coloureds, promote the Indians so that eventually there is a mixture in the higher echelons.  We must not expect that eventually, we will only be having blacks, if we are serious about having a rainbow nation.  If it is a rainbow nation, it means the higher echelons must be representative of  that rainbow nation.

Therefore, I think as far as other issues are concerned as politicians, I have been saying politicians must preach the gospel of peace rather than coming here and blaming the police.  I do not mean to say that police must not be blamed.  No country will ever have sufficient policing.  We can go anywhere.  The work of the political parties is to come together and then strategise and devise a good policy for our Government.  If the policy is good, and the people have said yes to the Constitution, we will not encounter problems that we meet in the form of policing.

It is quite evident that the Constitution of our country is not good.  You notice that, by the escalation of violence.  The people did not say yes to the Constitution.  That is why we are having so many problems.  Let us come together as politicians of all political parties, and try to sit down and then agree to a Constitution of the people of South Africa, not a Constitution that will be responsible to a certain political party.  We have argued on this thing before.  We said a Constitution must be a Constitution for the people.  All the residents must say yes to the Constitution, so that if a party is out-voted, there would be no need for the party that has won the elections, to come along and sit down and then start drafting a new Constitution.

That is the danger in South Africa, which might happen, if another party wins the elections, because we did not all say yes to the present Constitution, which is a result of this escalation of violence in our country.  Therefore we must not start blaming the police, we must look at ourselves first before we blame the police.  What have we done?  Is what we have done correct?  Those are the things that we must try to address.  It is the politicians, as I have said, who make the laws.  The police are there just to implement the laws.

It is ridiculous to say that powers have been devolved or assigned to the provinces as far as policing is concerned.  In fact that is why all the MECs from all provinces responsible for safety and security were begging for more powers from the National Minister.  That is why even the hon Premiers, all of them, from all provinces went to the Minister to beg for more powers, to salute for more powers, to kneel down for more powers.  It is what we are looking for.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Safety and Security):  Within this set up of laws really, no police will ever succeed.  Nobody will ever succeed.  There is a moratorium on police recruitment all over South Africa, not only in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  If police go out to intervene in faction fights, as I have said, we will find that we have a shortage of police vans.  Even the establishment is not there as the hon members have said.  Why?  It is because we do not have sufficient funds to do that.  The police are controlled at National level.  We do not have a say in the police matters.  We have to listen and then implement what we have listened to from National level.  We cannot work like that.

When you face a critical situation, let us say perhaps in rural areas, there is one policeman, then you are told that there is only one official with only one van.  That is why police are being attacked.  If you go to the other side to SANDF members, you will never see a soldier travelling alone in a van.  You will see them in a big group well armed, fully armed.  That is why they are not attacked by anybody, but our police, are just vulnerable and are being attacked.  We find a policeman travelling on his own in a vehicle which is not even bulletproof.

Those are the problems that we are facing.  If the Police Department was controlled in the Province, if we could get a budget as far as policing is concerned, we would sit down as a Province and discuss ways and means of combatting the crime in our Province.  We cannot do that.  It is impossible.

I have answered and said that there are no blacks in the higher echelons.  In fact we are going to sit down as the new Minister in the Province as far as promotions are concerned.  I am also not happy about what is being done, but the extent to which the Department or the police are being blamed is not constructive.  Blame them and then put your proposal.  Blame them, and then thereafter say what is the solution?  It is what we expect from you to tell us.  After blaming the police then propose a solution.  If you just blame and sit down really you have done nothing for us as a Department.  Those are the things that we should be working on.

The interim security component.  I can tell you that though I do not want to argue about that, but the Provincial Commissioner of internal security is an Indian.  I can tell you it is not all whites.  The total establishment of police in KwaZulu-Natal is 19 446.  We have got two black area commissioners, one Indian area commissioner and three white area commissioners.  We are still new, as I have said, in this democratic Government.  We will keep on doing these promotions.

I am going to meet with you as a Portfolio Committee together with the senior officials of my Department.  I will never allow the senior officials of my Department to put down other racial groups.  It is something that I will never agree to.  But give me a chance as somebody new to the Department, so that we sit down and then strategise a solution.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Safety and Security):  In fact as I have said, as far as BMWs are concerned, let me go to that project first.  I can give you these statistics.  The Indians who applied as drivers were 26.  Those who were interviewed were 23 and then those who were finally appointed were 14.  Then blacks who applied were 23, those interviewed were 14 and then those appointed, 14.  In other words, all those who were interviewed as far as black drivers are concerned were appointed.  Whites were 57.  

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS!

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Safety and Security): Could you help me, Mr Chairman, because I am not debating, I am answering.  Therefore, I do not expect hon members to keep on interjecting.  In fact at the same time it is not traditional, as a traditional leader.  It is not traditional.  [LAUGHTER]

As far as whites are concerned, applied were 57, interviewed 55 and only 27 were appointed.  I can tell you, Mr Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, hon members of this House, that in all categories there were applicants without driver's licences.

To prove that KwaZulu-Natal police are doing their best is proved by the number of guns, as you have heard one of the members debating here, confiscated in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, which was more than in any other province of the Republic of South Africa.  That proves how serious policing is in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, with the aim to combat crime.

The matter of the Commissioner who wanted an appointment before the hon member could talk to him, I think we must get the details so that we can investigate that.  If the hon member says he wanted to talk to a certain commissioner who said, "No, no, no, go back.  Let us go for an interview".  I think we must get the details so that we can investigate the matter.

As far as security at schools is concerned, as it came from other members.  I do not think there is anybody who can satisfy the need for good policing to all schools, because the number of schools appear to be more than the number of the total establishment of police in the Province.  Therefore it would be impossible to provide security to schools.

What we are going to do because it is a new matter, what I am saying is just my thought, we are going to sit down with the Portfolio Committee and the Department of Education and Culture so that we can find a way out.  But really, I do not know how we can provide policing at schools when the community is suffering in this fashion.  We have heard here that the farmers are being attacked.  Even the police themselves are being attacked.  If the police are attacked, who can say the police are not doing their work, if they themselves are in danger of dying every day?

Therefore it is the work of politicians, it is the work of us as a community to preach the good gospel to our followers because those people who kill the police are our followers as politicians.  Those are the people who voted for us as politicians, the people did not vote for the police.

I agree, if the Portfolio Committee could go out and show support for our police, as one member has suggested.  The Committee is there to help the Department and police to fulfil their task.  Police appointments are not controlled by provinces.  If senior posts are there for whites only, I think the situation should be rectified if really that is the case.  We are going to correct that.

The new order in the police situation is one which is there, as you know, and all is controlled by the Constitution, as I have said.  Unless we do not get powers as provinces there is no hope of future development as far as policing is concerned.

As far as the involvement of police in cases of criminality is concerned, I think I have said that in my budget speech, that there is a body called the Independent Complaints Directorate, which is specifically there to deal with the matters of policing, in cases where there is corruption as far as policing is concerned.

I agree with the notion by some members, that what we are going to ask the politicians to do, is to give us a chance as police.  In fact, after getting a report about what happened in Richmond I was really not happy when I heard that there was that interference by the politicians, to tell the police to have a certain police officer investigated and not other police officers.  You make things difficult for our Department.  Because after the Commissioner has done that what would have happened if other people came and said, "No, no, no, we do not want this officer, who has been identified by other politicians.  We do not want him here".  How do we do our work as a Department?  Please do not interfere with our work, but help us, so that we can help you.

If there were problems, I would have loved our politicians, my colleagues as politicians even to include me in that.  I was not even consulted but what happened, politicians went to my senior officials, they discussed these details with my senior officials without informing me about the matter.  I was just informed by the Provincial Commissioner as to what had happened there.  In fact, I was not happy as far as that was concerned.

Prevention of rape or sexual assault.  That will only succeed if the community is also involved.  I will not expand on that because it is part and parcel of our work as parents also.  It is not a matter only to be solved by the police.  It is part and parcel of myself to see where my daughters are.  It is part of the community to see that their children are safe.  We cannot just put the blame on the police when the young girls sometimes go out to "egiginis" with the permission of parents and then they are raped there.  Therefore we must work together with the aim to solve this problem.  Do not just shift it on to the police.

I would be happy if hon members could advise us how to better run our Department, as I have said, rather than attack.  We are here as a Department to be advised by this hon House.  I agree also that ANC and IFP leaders should continue talking about peace.  What is happening, as we have heard at Umlazi, really is going to ferment the escalation of violence.  I think both political parties must come together urgently to address that situation, because if people hear that parties are fighting again we will hear of another fight somewhere else in another area of our Province.  Therefore I think we must try to address that matter immediately.

I think I should stop there and then take this opportunity to thank the members of my Portfolio Committee, who helped us in addressing these very sensitive and political issues that involves the Police Department.  At the same time to thank our Provincial Commissioner, the Secretariat and other senior officials who are present here.  You can see here I have whites, I have blacks, I have the ladies, I have the Indians, I have  everything.  I have everybody here.

AN HON MEMBER:  Rainbow.

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Safety and Security):  Rainbow nation as I have said.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

~INKOSI~ N J NGUBANE: (As Minister of Safety and Security):  In fact, you can see we do not have sufficient space, that is why I said they must only bring one black lady, one Indian lady.  [LAUGHTER]  In fact, I told them to do that.  Then one white lady, then one Indian and then the senior officials.  In fact they are all here.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you so much, Mr Minister.  We have come to the end of vote 9.  Before we close I will ask the hon Premier if he has something to say.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I will request permission to table two reports at the end of my remarks.  I would like to congratulate ~Inkosi~ Ngubane, for coming to grips with this very difficult portfolio, so soon after his appointment.  If there is any issue that calls for multi-party common purpose in this Province, it is Safety and Security.  We can talk of all sorts of things, of transformations, of liberation, of democracy, if we do not have this one institution that gets under and protects our fledgling democracy we shall have failed.  We will have to go back to our constituencies, promote a new culture, a culture that supports the law enforcement and the law protecting agencies, safety and security.

It is not an arena for political rhetoric for showing how smart we are, for saying that we will only support the institution once our type of political people lead it.  If we go that path we are leading this Province to partition.  We have to accept the police composed as it is, as an important agency of this new democratic State.  We have to support the Commissioner, whatever reservations we may have.  It is our duty.  We cannot use politics in this particular portfolio.

So I request the members of this House to restrain themselves, not to abuse the positions of power that the electorate of this Province has given to them.  We owe a duty to our police.  Every day we should be standing up for one minute of silence to remember those who have fallen in the service of their fellow mankind.

So I am a bit disturbed, colleagues, with the sort of rancorous debate that has gone on.  We have been attending to our own political issues here rather than to the Province's issues.  Let us reflect on this.  The Minister has been right in recalling the importance of this House in support of his Department.

I would like to thank Mr Hugh Lee on this occasion of the vote on Safety and Security.  Mr Lee has been very exemplary.  He has gone to areas of suffering, collected evidence and assisted the police in addressing those issues.  It is our duty to do so.  I do hope that those who remain in the Portfolio Committee will carry on this very noble tradition.

Tomorrow, we have agreed that we shall break for 30 minutes from our Cabinet meeting to go to the prayer service organised by Religion Against Crime Group, which is supported by the South African Safety and Security Service and our own Provincial Safety and Security Service, to register our deep concern and our commitment to fight crime in this Province.  I do hope that those members who will be around here, because our Parliament will only start at 2 o'clock, will also join in this service, to really give hope to the people of this Province that the politicians, the Parliament, the Governments mean what they say when they say they want to root out crime and protect the innocent people of our Province.

Therefore, I would like to congratulate the Minister once more, and the House, and just request that the House really addresses this issue at constituency level.  It is not an issue that you can win in this House, it is an issue that will only succeed if we address it in the minds and souls of our people when we repair the broken social fabric of our society.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Order! Order!

MRS C E GALEA:  Sorry, Mr Chairperson.  Mr Premier, if I could just ask a question.  The venue and the time of the prayer meeting.  The other hon members do not have any notification.

MR N SINGH:  We will announce it just now.  I will find out.

THE PREMIER:  Mr Singh will help me with that just now.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you.

THE PREMIER:  I would like to table the annual report of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Service Commission tonight, so that the members can have a bit of insight into the report before we debate it, and also table the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration annual report 1996/97, Department of Finance and Auxiliary Services.

It will be in the City Hall at 10 o'clock.  Thank you very much.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Premier.  The House will adjourn now till 2 o'clock tomorrow.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 18:18 UNTIL
	14:00 ON WEDNESDAY, 14 MAY 1997

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - EIGHTH SITTING DAY
	WEDNESDAY, 14 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 14:10 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND MR REHMAN READ THE PRAYER.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, can I raise a point of procedure.  We have been overlooking an error, because when the House goes into Committee Stage, the Speaker has a small handing over ceremony, but at the end of the Committee Stage on each day there must be a handing back ceremony to the Speaker, where the presiding officer who is the Chairperson of Committees must report to you that there is progress.  What we are doing is that without the handing over ceremony you start the session each day.  At the end, before the adjournment, that Chairperson of the Committee Stage must hand over the Chair to you officially.  So I think we should follow that procedure.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  It was an issue for discussion and it was debated by a few people.  It was agreed that we should pursue it this way, but now that you have raised it we are going to follow what you are saying.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The only disadvantage is the Speaker has to wait in his office for a few hours.  He cannot go home.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  That as well will be done, Mr Rajbansi.  Let us move to our Order Paper.

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the IFP have a new member who will be replacing Mr Lee.  He is waiting outside and I request permission to escort him into the House.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can we have order.  Can we have order please.  I will then request you and another member from your party to bring him in, but I also request the names, the proper names.  If I can have the proper names, Mr Tarr.

MR T F DINGILA SWORN IN

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  Will the hon member be escorted to his chair.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I made a query about another vacancy.  I think we should adopt a rule that if a party fails to give a name we should draw lots and allocate that seat to the other parties.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi, since you raised the issue, you prompted me as the Speaker to go into the affairs of that party and try and find out what is happening.  I have pleasure in announcing that I have now been forwarded a letter with the name of a person that is supposed to be taking over.  I have been informed that that person is going to be brought to the Legislature to be sworn in.  Thank you.

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

I have to report that the Speaker is not going to be available until this particular sitting is over.  I also wish to report that I, as the Deputy Speaker, will be representing this branch of KwaZulu-Natal as per the arrangements made prior to the formation of the branch at the CPA Africa Region Annual Conference, to be held in Harare from 16 May to 24 May.

Again I have to report that after Harare, I will be joining other Deputy Speakers and Whips on a tour of the Deputy Speakers and Whips to Italy and to Switzerland.  That trip will take place from the 25th to 31 May.  That then means that the panel that was elected by the House will have the responsibility of overseeing the affairs of the House for the next two weeks until the Speaker or myself are back.

I also wish to report that I received a letter from the doctor of Mrs Gasa, and it was also informing us that she is still not able to resume her duties until early next month.  That does away as well with our Chairperson of Committees.

Those were my announcements and reports.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORT BY THE PREMIER

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I now wish to hand over to the Premier to make announcements or table reports as he may have.  Thank you, Mr Premier.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

Thank you, Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, sir.  I wish to table formally the annual report 1996/1997 of the Department of Finance and Auxiliary Services and also the annual report of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Service Commission 1996.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  There being no further tabling of papers or reports we will then move on to notices of Bills or Motions.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS 

Mr Rajbansi, you seem to be the only one these days.  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Yes, I have to place notices of motion because the party that believes in the greatest democracy wants to stifle minor parties as far as time allocation is concerned.

I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	That this hon House is committed to the healing of the wounds of ~~apartheid~~ putting right the injustices of the past.

	It be also noted that the Group Areas Act has had a devastating effect on the valuations of properties for rateable purposes.  Artificial situations were created to create unrealistic market values.

	The Local Government Portfolio Committee, after thorough investigation, has recommended to the hon Minister of Local Government and Housing that the law relating to rebates be improved upon.

	THEREFORE it be resolved that the hon Minister be requested to give effect to the unanimous recommendation of the said Portfolio Committee on rates rebates.

Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Mr Rehman.

MR M F REHMAN:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I had recognised Mr Rehman.

MR M F REHMAN:  Mr Speaker, I give notice of the following motion.

	This House noting the presence of the M-Net team here at the KwaZulu-Natal Legislature - Pietermaritzburg providing coverage of proceedings, whilst appreciating the service provided by this team, also notes with concern that broadcasting of these recordings is done at odd hours and on Channel 21 (a satellite station) which is available to an elite few of the Province.  We also note that the majority population of KwaZulu-Natal, who should be informed of the proceedings of Parliament, do not have access to this channel.

	This House therefore proposes that these proceedings be aired during M-Net Open Time so that the full spectrum of the population of KwaZulu-Natal can be afforded the opportunity of watching our proceedings.

Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rehman.  Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I have two notices of motion which I will be moving tomorrow.  The first one is:

	THIS HOUSE -
	
	noting with concern the high level of unemployment in this, the most populous province of our country, believes that all avenues of sustainable job creation should be investigated.

	THEREFORE RESOLVES -

	to instruct the Portfolio Committee of Economic Affairs and Tourism and the Cabinet to investigate all means of job creation, and the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism to report back to this House before September 1997.  Such investigation should, inter alia, cover the following areas of potential job creation:

	1.	Manufacture for export;
	2.	Rural development by promoting cash crops for small farmers;
	3.	Capitalising on Spacial Development Initiatives (SDIs);
	4.	Benefication of local raw materials; and
	5.	Unlocking tourism potential.

Mr Speaker, the second motion which I would like to move is:

	THIS HOUSE noting:

	1.	the totally inadequate budget of 3,552 million that has been allocated to Environmental Affairs (vote 11, Programme 3); and
	2.	the severe problems this creates for the Provincial Government in carrying out its Constitutional and Legal requirements.

	HEREBY RESOLVES:

	1.	to instruct the Portfolio Committee on Conservation and Environmental Affairs to investigate and report back to this House by November 1997 on ways and means to implement an effective environmental programme.  The report back should contain recommendations on possible legislation if deemed appropriate.
	2.	such investigation to also deal with the establishment of a statutory Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to oversee the implementation of environmental legislation and the creation of an environmental audit profession as a means of carrying out the duties of the EPA.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Tarr.  No further motions.

8.	ELECTION OF LEADER OF THE HOUSE

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  As the House will remember there is a vacancy that exists for the position of leader of the House.  I have been approached by the majority party wanting this issue to be put on the Order Paper.  Mr Tarr.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, hon members will know that with the appointment of Mr Singh to the Cabinet, this position has now become vacant.  It gives me great pleasure on behalf of the majority party to nominate Mr M B Gwala, to fill this position.  Mr Gwala is a member who has been with us since the inauguration of this House, he is a popular member, he is well versed in all the issues relating to the functioning and operation of this House and we believe he will be an ideal person to fill this position.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Chief Whip.  There is a proposal.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, it gives me great pleasure from this side of the House to support the nomination of Mr M B Gwala.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  The name of Mr Gwala has been proposed and seconded.  Agreed?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, on behalf of the minor parties we support the nomination, but we will make a proposal to the Parliamentary Board to adjust the status of the leader of the House which we discussed previously.  The Steyn Commission has equated that position to that of an ordinary Whip.  We believe it deserves a higher status as Gauteng has done.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Is there any opposition?  No opposition.  Agreed.  Mr Gwala is elected as the leader of the House unanimously.  Congratulations, Mr Gwala.  [APPLAUSE]

MR M B GWALA IS ELECTED LEADER OF THE HOUSE.

9.	ORDERS OF THE DAY

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I am therefore not adjourning this House and I am simply transforming it into Committee Stage to allow the debate in the Committee of Supply to take place on vote 10.  House transforms into Committee of Supply.  Thank you.  I request therefore accordingly the Deputy Chair of Committees to take over the chair.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE.
MR T S MOHLOMI THE DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES TAKES THE CHAIR 

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The Committee of Supply resumes.  We are now going to deliberate on vote 10 which is the Provincial Service Commission and I wish to call upon the hon Premier, Dr Ngubane to address the House.

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

VOTE 10: PROVINCIAL SERVICE COMMISSION

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I have the pleasure to present to the House the 1997/1998 budget for the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Service Commission, amounting to R8,756 million, which is a reduction of 28,58% on the budget for the 1996/97 financial year.  This reduction was made on the recommendation of our Provincial Budget Council.

It is by now known that the 1996 Constitution does not provide for Provincial Service Commissions and in fact provides for a single Public Service Commission for the Republic of South Africa.  This single Public Service Commission will consist of 14 commissioners appointed by the President, of whom five will be approved by a resolution of the majority of the National Assembly, and one commissioner for each province, nominated by the Premier of the relevant province and approved by a resolution of the majority of the provincial legislature.  

The prescribed procedure is laid down in section 196 of the New Constitution.  The Constitution further provides that commissioners nominated by their provinces, approved by resolution of their provincial legislature and appointed by the President may exercise the powers and perform the functions of the Commission in their respective provinces.  The powers and functions of the Public Service Commission differ considerably from the powers and functions presently vested in service commissions (that is Public Service Commissions and Provincial Service Commissions) and, in short, entail the following:

-	to promote the basic values and principles governing public administration and stated in section 196 of the Constitution;

-	to investigate, monitor and evaluate the organisation and administration, and the personnel practices, of the public service;

-	to propose measures to ensure effective and efficient performance within the public service;

-	to give directions aimed at ensuring that personnel procedures relating to recruitment, transfers, promotions and dismissals comply with the basic values and principles stated in section 195 of the Constitution;

-	to report in respect of its activities and the performance of its functions; and

-	to investigate on its own accord or upon receipt of any complaint, the application of personnel and public administration practices, grievances of employees and to recommend appropriate remedies, to monitor applicable procedures in the public service, and to advise national and provincial organs of state regarding practices in the public service.

It is not yet known when this single Public Service Commission will be established as legislation to give effect to it, has not, as yet been presented to Parliament for its consideration.  Section 24(2) of Schedule 6 of the new Constitution contains transitional measures whereby provision is made for the continuation of service commissions in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution Act, Act 200 of 1993.  Until such time as the single Public Service Commission for the Republic of South Africa is established, the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Service Commission will continue to operate in terms of the abovementioned transitional measures.

The House will recall that the establishment of the Provincial Department was accomplished through a schedule to the KwaZulu-Natal Act constituting the Provincial Service Commission, that is the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Service Commission Act, Act 6 of 1994.

In the light of the fact that the proposed Public Service Commission Act will abolish all Provincial Acts relating to the constitution of Provincial Commissions, and the Act pertaining to the National Commission will be repealed in conjunction with the Act.  It stands to reason, therefore, that the abolition in toto of our Act will leave this Provincial Administration without a legal provision for the continued existence of the provincial departments.  It is suggested, therefore, that the continued existence of these provincial departments be provided for in another piece of legislation, that is, either a proclamation by the Premier or a new Act of this Provincial Legislature.

The Provincial Service Commission set itself objectives last year, which were partially achieved.  One of these objectives was to finalise the amalgamation of the departments of the Provincial Administration.  The total number of posts in the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration, (excluding CS educators), amounts to 99 270.  The culture service educators do not fall under the Provincial Service Commission's jurisdiction but under that of the Minister of Education and Culture.  Now that this process has been finalised, it is necessary that the amalgamated post establishments of the departments of the Provincial Administration be rationalised.  This process will not be an easy one as the Central Government's programme of right-sizing has a direct impact on rationalisation.  It is indeed regrettable that service commissions have not been consulted prior to agreeing to and embarking on a programme of right-sizing, nor have they been given a specific role in this programme.  The KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Service Commission observed that the programme of right-sizing in reality revealed itself as a programme of down-sizing, that is reducing the public service.  The Provincial Service Commission's view is that in order to determine the right size of the public service as a whole, it will be necessary to determine the right size of each of the components comprising the public service as a whole.  The right size will consist of an optimum number of posts which will be necessary to effectively and efficiently serve the public.  This may not necessarily mean a reduction in the number of posts, but can in fact mean that in some components an increase in the number of posts takes place.  The principle applicable to this process is one of questioning the existence of each and every post and justifying their continued existence, including the level at which each is provided and the numbers needed to render the type of service required by the public.

Some provincial departments have already made proposals for rationalisation to the Commission, but the Commission could not accede to these as the principles stated before have not been met.  Provincial departments seem to take as their point of departure that the existence of their amalgamated posts, automatically confirms the continued existence thereof without even questioning whether a post was justified in the first instance.

The Commission consequently had to resort to meetings with key role-players in provincial departments in a workshop situation to explain its approach and also to assist with justifying posts based on rational principles.  The Commission will continue to interact with departments of the Provincial Administration in this manner in an effort to assist them with the rationalisation process.

The Commission also set itself the object last year to ensure that serving officials are absorbed into the posts of the amalgamated establishments and thereafter to assist with the filling of the remaining vacancies.  The Commission is particularly concerned about the filling of top management posts as the incumbents are the ones who are the driving force behind service delivery and who give direction to subordinates.  When posts in the public service are filled, the provisions of the Public Service Act 1994 have to be observed against the background of the Constitutional imperatives of non-discrimination and of making the public service representative.  It is, however, often found that requests from provincial departments do not comply with the requirements laid down in the Public Service Act, nor do they in some cases comply with the Constitutional imperatives.  The Commission is compelled to return these requests to provincial departments and this inevitably leads to delays.  It often happens that the delays are then blamed on the Commission instead of the provincial departments acknowledging the fact that they have not been complying with the statutory requirements for the filling of posts in the first place.  Regrettably, these problems are not confined to top management posts only, but also do apply to posts at all levels which are submitted to the Commission for recommendation.  The Commission's Office issued a number of Circulars to advise and guide provincial departments in their efforts, and whilst there are a number of departments who accept this advice and guidance, a large number of departments do not heed this advice and this leads to delays with the filling of their posts.

In conclusion, hon members, the Provincial Service Commission is committed to the realisation of a Public Service which provides for the appointment of members of the previously disadvantaged groups and the elimination of gender disparities.  As a manifestation of this commitment, this Commission has issued a directive to a number of departments indicating that these imperatives should be reflected in the proposals submitted to the Commission for its recommendation.

I would like to add here that in my Premier's vote, that is vote 1 budget speech, I did speak about the need for right-sizing Government departments, and of course for reprioritising Government programmes and activities which includes examining the rationale for the existence of the activities and the questioning of whether certain activities were still relevant to the purpose of Government, which is to render public services.

Now some people have unfortunately interpreted this as an intention to retire people, to retrench people and to create unemployment inevitably.  This is far from the case.  We have received a directive from the President in the past who said we should look urgently at the rationalisation of all funded vacancies because a lot of money is still going to departments on the basis of unfilled funded vacancies.  That is where the rationalisation and right-sizing process should start first.  Cut down those posts which are excessive or supernumerary, and then create a very rationalised service which actually meets the constraints that we face today in terms of limited budgets and cut backs on Government expenditure.

With these few words, I thank you, sir.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, hon Premier.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Xaba to address the House for eight minutes.

MR V C XABA:  Mr Chairman, I thank you for granting me this opportunity to again make an input in this debate, regarding the Provincial Service Commission.

I have noted that in the new Constitution the Service Commissions that have been in provinces will now have to be abolished in terms of the new Act that is going to be passed by Parliament, giving way to a single Public Service Commission that is going to exist at National level, obviously with representation from provinces.

I am not sure if the decision of having a single Public Service Commission will in fact provide an effective and speedy process of attending to the needs of our administrative arrangements.  I am sceptical as far as that is concerned, taking into account that the process of filling of posts in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal alone has been a long drawn out affair, besides conflict between the Cabinet on one hand, and the Provincial Service Commission on the other, or sometimes conflict between a Minister on one hand, and the Provincial Service Commission on the other.  That conflict has not helped the Province in any way.

I am raising this point because the creation of the Service Commission in this Province has come about as a result of our own legislation.  In short, it is our own creation, and if problems arise as a result of the interaction between our Cabinet and a Provincial Service Commission it would be proper to have that reported to this Parliament so that this Parliament, if it deems it fit, will then take the necessary steps to try and deal with that.

One of the functions of the Provincial Service Commission is to promote efficiency and effectiveness in the public administration.  It is true that that has to happen but I want to indicate that if that is not accompanied by capacity building  we shall fail in our duty to ensure effectiveness in our own administration.

It is noted in the report delivered to us by the Provincial Service Commission that a recommendation towards the setting up of KwaZulu-Natal Human Resource Development Institute, has been frustrated by the fact that the former Premier of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal had not actually tabled a memorandum which proposes a number of provisions that would put the institution in motion.  In that sense it therefore made the Premier or Cabinet guilty of stalling training and development programmes of managers, taking into account that the question of building of capacity is very essential.

I also want to indicate that we have heard about the delay in filling of posts, especially top management posts in the Department of Education.  I must also indicate that it displeases one, in that we really need to have our top management posts in place so that effective management is not compromised. 

Let me turn to the Shabalala saga.  The fact that the Provincial Administration still retains a person who has reached the age of mandatory retirement is indeed embarrassing on the part of the administration in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  So we need to catch the bull by its horns.

I also want to state that this process of abolishing the Provincial Service Commission in the Province is indeed a worrying one.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

MR V C XABA:  We hope and trust that measures will be put in place to ensure that we do not have bureaucratic procedures "red tape".  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Xaba.  Next on the list of speakers is the hon Minister Mr Miller who will address the House for 15 minutes.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Chairman, at lunch today in conversation with my Premier, we agreed that it would be right and proper that any particular grievances that we might have with the Provincial Service Commission should be played down in order to demonstrate a degree of solidarity amongst the institutions of Government in this Province, with a view to promoting good governance.

I must say that that particular agreement was made prior to anybody having access to this report, the content of which is mind boggling in its arrogance.

In fact, I want to say that in all my time in public life of nearly 20 years, I have never ever heard an institution created by this Legislature and appointed by the Executive under the Premier, hold the Executive and the Premier in greater contempt than this report does, in its particular paragraph here headed, "Independence and Impartiality of the Commission".

The Premier and Executive are in fact told, not in a roundabout way, but directly that they have no competence, and I quote, "no competence to overturn or amend the recommendation of the Commission".  "No competence to amend or overturn".

The flip side of that coin is then that they will accept the recommendation whether they like it or not, and therefore the use of the term "recommendation" becomes a joke, because it is not a recommendation at all, it is an order.  It is an order, it is an inviolable dictate.  So in fact this report says that the supreme authority in the Government of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal is the Provincial Service Commission.

Those words might well be harsh and, Mr Premier, I will run as fast as I can after this lest you should chase me, but I want to say that what I have said really demonstrates the dilemma we are in.  It demonstrates the fact that an executive can appoint a body and then the only way it can have any say and influence on the decisions that that body takes, is in fact to perhaps repeal the legislation that created the body.

You see, I for example, as a member of the Executive, pride myself that, within the constraints under which we all act, I am running a Department whose record is, to put it mildly, reasonable.  A Department which in fact has done a reasonably good job under the circumstances, and which I think is reasonably well recognised around the Province as one of those where delivery and other administrative activities are at acceptable levels.

When you, as the responsible Minister, and your senior management have gone to great lengths to try and devise a structure to manage the responsibilities that you are given.  When you are faced with great difficulties in regard to the unanticipated problems that are arising with the new Local Government bodies, and problems with the administrative capacity of those bodies, and the financial capacity of those bodies.  Where you know that it has never been more important ever than to be well equipped to be able to assist and advise and run those bodies, then you get told that the reason why your structure is being turned around is that your structure will not be necessary.  Just like that.  Not be necessary once Local Government bodies have been established.

I want to tell the hon gentleman that came up with that particular view that it has never been more necessary, ever than now, to have the support staff and to have the support capacity to help those very local authorities, and it is going to be like that for the next decade.  There is no way at all that the function can simply be carried out in that way.

I consider that, to be direct intervention in a managerial competence of a department.  So the context of my problems can perhaps be understood when you realise that six pages of this report are devoted solely to an unmitigated attack on the Department of Local Government and Housing.

I have stood before this House three times in a row now.  Twice already and the third time I will stand on Friday.  Three years to say that the structure that I require in order to run my Department effectively is not yet in place.

I think it is reasonable under those circumstances for me to feel aggrieved that that in fact is the case.  I want to state that it is beyond my comprehension that such a state of affairs can be allowed to continue.  That we can actually have a body brought into being by legislation of this House, whose purpose it is to facilitate and promote good governance, through making it possible for departments to effectively deliver, which on the contrary can prove to be the single most important hindrance and obstacle to effective delivery.  That situation to me is mind boggling.

I first lodged my Department's proposals in December 1994.  The Commission produced its own recommendations towards the end of 1995.  Those recommendations were not acceptable to my Ministry and to my Department, but I have heard in this report that I was not allowed to find those unacceptable.  Acting in my capacity as the executing authority in terms of the Public Service Act, those recommendations were not accepted.

The Commission argued that in terms of the Constitution, it was not in my power to reject those recommendations, and so without conceding the point I then went to the Cabinet and the Cabinet and the Executive Council rejected the recommendations.  We have also learnt that the Cabinet and Executive Council is not permitted to have done that.

To cut a long story short, there is a lot of argument here about a legal opinion versus a legal opinion.  Apparently the two senior counsel that have been advising the Executive Committee and the Premier and my Department are incompetent.  That also comes out in this report.  Be that as it may, I accept any dispute over a legal interpretation.  I am sufficiently intelligent to know that there can be contrary opinions, and the only way of course that that can be resolved is to obtain a declaratory order of some kind or another as to which opinion is correct, and then we will have to abide by that.

I want to draw to a conclusion by just saying this.  That in the last six months my Department has lost 883 members of staff to the severance package proposals.  Many of whom were senior managerial people in acting capacities who had been there and had eventually given up that they would ever be confirmed in the post in which they were acting.  This has resulted in an unfair workload on senior officials in the Department with some officials, as I have just said, acting in posts for more than two years and numerous key management posts being left unfilled.  This has resulted in uncertainty and even disillusionment amongst the senior ranks of the Department, and disturbing numbers of members leaving, as I have indicated.  Numbers of members are leaving.  As a result we have to employ more consultants to fulfil our duties etcetera.

I would have also thought that my colleagues in this House who prepared the report on the budget vote 10, the Finance Portfolio Committee, who have come to that conclusion, and it is their right to come to the conclusion I suppose, who have come to the conclusion that, after having reviewed the cases raised by the Department of Local Government and my colleague here from the Department of Education and Culture, who would have applied the administrative and legal principle of audi alteram partem, to hear both sides of the story, the concerns are not justified.  

I would like to invite the Portfolio Committee, and I hope the Chairman is listening, to actually hear the other side of the story, and if they still come to the same conclusion then at least they will have come to that conclusion with all the information at their disposal.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Chairman, what I have to say here has got nothing to do with personality and I want to emphasise that.  It has to do with a belief, and what has finally convinced me is this report, that in fact people are getting pleasure out of conducting a vendetta against the Department for reasons I do no know.

It is therefore without any twinge of sadness, I must confess, having been an avid supporter of the idea of a Provincial Service Commission, and an avid supporter of nominations to that Commission, that when I hear the speech now of my Premier, and when he indicates the timetable for the demise of the institution, it leaves me cold.  If in fact the legal views that are expressed in this document are all true, and we have unknowingly and inadvertently created this monster which is the supreme authority over everything, then I believe that the only way out is to be found in the very Act that this Legislature passed, where it says that if it is in the interests of efficiency and economy the Public Service Commission can be summarily dismissed.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is up.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Miller.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mr Volker who will address the House for seven minutes.

MR V A VOLKER:  Mr Chairman, having listened to the previous speaker, I can only say I will come to some issues raised by him presently.

I first wish to respond to the first speaker on this side of the House, the hon Mr Xaba, and wish to say that I basically tend to agree with him when he says that he is sceptical about the ability of a National Service Commission to be able to deal with the issues that have to be dealt with within this Province.  I take it that by that he indicated that he believes that it was better to be able to have a Service Commission within the Province, that could deal with those issues in a more direct way.  The principle of that, I would say, I agree with him.  The hon propagandist for the - let me leave it at that.  I think the hon member who is looking at me knows what I mean.  [LAUGHTER]

Indicated in this annual report, in the very first chapter, it says:

	The primary responsibility of the Commission is to ensure that the principles of fairness, impartiality, accountability, merit, efficiency, effectiveness and transparency are upheld.

Noble tasks of the Commission.  That in fact is why, and here I must indicate that I do not agree with what the previous speaker, Minister Miller, said in his apparent understandable criticism of the paragraph on independence and impartiality of the Commission.

The situation is that there is a difference between the executive Government or the Government, and various other bodies, and in the Constitution there must be a guarantee that certain bodies can act independently and impartially, separate from the Government.  Such other posts are, for example, the judiciary.

The Judges can under no circumstances be subservient to executive directives from any Cabinet, be it at Central or Provincial level.  The same applies to the Auditor-General.  The same applies to the Public Protector.  The same applies to a Service Commission which must act in impartiality to ensure fairness for a large structure, a large component, on which the whole administration of a country depends, they must be able to ensure that such administrative structures act independently and impartially from any possible political directives from executives or legislation.  That principle cannot be faulted.

Then I wish to come to the matters addressed by the hon Mr Peter Miller.  I have an understanding and appreciation for the frustration which he has experienced.  In addressing the conflict or the unresolved conflict that his Department has experienced with the Public Service Commission, there is understandable reason to be frustrated, and it is difficult for me to comprehend why it was not possible for rational co-ordination of addressing the interests of any department, including the Department of Local Government.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you.  I understand that the views expressed and indicated in this report appear to be not totally justified, because with the situation that local authority has been restructured, that vast areas of the country that previously had no local authorities now do have local authorities, the total composition of local authorities is totally restructured in terms of political requirements of the new situation.  It is logical to me that support staff must be necessary.  I think the views expressed that the size of the Department of Local Government, which incidentally is only 7% of the total indicated staff structure of the Province.  I believe that the Local Government staff structure is not excessive, and I accept that a large shortage of skilled staff does exist at the moment.

I would like to compliment the Minister, in spite of that, having dealt with issues affecting his staff structure in an efficient and effective way.  Probably more so than some other departments.

I would sincerely hope that this conflict that has arisen, this unresolved conflict should be addressed in a responsible way between senior departments and senior officials, because the Province cannot afford to continue with a conflict of this nature.  I believe that if the Commission has the task to ensure that the staff structures should be not only impartial, but accountable, that they should be based on merit, that there should be efficiency, that there should be effectiveness and transparency, then at the moment saying this in my capacity as Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, numerous departments have still not reached that stage, and it is essential that urgent attention should be given to that.

I agree totally with the commitment of the Premier and the Cabinet to good governance, to effective governance, to ensure transparency, to ensure the elimination of all the wrongs as far as corruption and such matters are concerned.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time is over.

MR V A VOLKER:  Thank you.  And for that reason, Mr Chairman, I sincerely express my hope that this conflict will be resolved while we still have a Provincial Service Commission.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Volker.  Before I call upon Mr Burrows, I just wish to make an announcement.  It has been brought to my attention that some members of the public and especially from the press gallery are putting their feet on the railings or leaning over the railings.  So please refrain from doing so.  It does not show respect for this House.  Also members of the public should please switch off their cell phones, there is a standing Rule in this House that cell phones are not supposed to be on during the proceedings of this House.  Thank you.  Mr Burrows please.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Chairman, I think this House will welcome those members of the Provincial Service Commission who are present here today, and there are members who are not present and we should note that too.

The Provincial Service Commission has a short life ahead of it.  It will be governed by the passing of the Public Service Commission Bill, Bill 31 of 1997 that is now being tabled in the National Legislature.  The Public Service Laws Amendment Bill will also change the composition and nature of the public service of the Republic of South Africa, not the public service of the Province of KwaZulu-Natal, the public service of the Republic of South Africa.

There is an interesting phrase in that memorandum on that Bill, that is the Public Service Laws Amendment Bill:

	It is no longer considered desirable that the President, (that is of South Africa) should be able to reject certain actions affecting the public service or its members.

The Act has accordingly been amended.  Now that is an interesting one because it accords with what Mr Volker said, that there should be a separation between what the Executive can do and what the Public Service Commission or in our case the Provincial Service Commission is recommending.

The problem I have got is when you read the report you come to the conclusion that there is such an enormous gap existing between our Executive and the Provincial Service Commission created by this House, that it is almost unbridgeable.

I did a quick tally, on page 6, of the posts that have been able to be filled in the top four echelons of posts in this Province.  Superintendent General, Deputy DG, Chief Director and Director.  122 have been filled and 108 are vacant.  That is not a success.  That is a failure and I do not care who you point the fingers at.  This House can point them at the Executive or they can point them at the Provincial Service Commission.  I will tell you it is not a success.

If you read the report further, you read the concerns that have been expressed by members about the Superintendent General of Education in the post, and the difference between Cabinet resolution and Provincial Service Commission's point of view, of legal advice sought by both parties competing one against the other.  We see the same with the hon Mr Miller's Department of Local Government and Housing.  We see it in other departments that have come before the Finance Committee and said they cannot get posts filled.

The Commission realises that it does not control the process of initiating the advertising.  They make the excuses, they say it is not their responsibility, the departments say it is not their responsibility.  I must tell you, and this is before the hon Mr Miller spoke, when I read this and wrote these notes down, I find this document hard to believe, that we end up in a situation where the hon Minister of Local Government has threatened to the Finance Committee to take the Provincial Service Commission to court to get an establishment, a declaratory, for his Department.  In this document the Provincial Service Commission appears to threaten to take the Cabinet to court.  Now it is nonsense.  It is an utter nonsense.

We hear further that there are personal divisions between members of the Commission themselves and their staff, that there is lack of co-operation between staff of departments and the Commission itself.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute.

MR R M BURROWS:  I simply want to appeal, at the end of the day, Mr Premier, there is only one way out, and that is to invoke section 127(2)(e) of the Constitution, the power given to you to appoint a commission of inquiry, that you appoint a one person judicial commission of inquiry to enquire into the workings of the Provincial Service Commission.  Thank you, Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Rajbansi who will address the House for three minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  We must recognise the fact that we have only one public service for the country.  We have one Public Service Act.  In addition to what my colleague, the hon Mr Burrows has stated, our investigations reveal that the only province in this country that is having problems with its Provincial Service Commission is KwaZulu-Natal.

The Minister of Local Government and Housing indicated to the Portfolio Committee, that this is the only Provincial Service Commission, that has refused to delegate certain responsibilities to certain officials.  Then we must ask ourselves why are there no problems with the Provincial Service Commission in other provinces.

The wise suggestion of Mr Burrows should be accepted.  What you need is that there are two separate opinions, and I am glad that the Premier is acting today on this matter with a high measure of diplomacy.  It augers well for this Province.  Appoint a Judge to give a ruling, because you have got two conflicting opinions.

I want hon members of this House to search something.  A black African cannot be promoted in Durban at the Esplanade Government Building and he is holding an acting post because of this situation.  A black Indian was sent by a Minister to study housing in India.  When he comes back he is frustrated because he cannot be appointed to a relevant post and he takes a post in the North-West Province.  Another black, excellent in ability, is frustrated, his work is suffering because he cannot be appointed to the post in which he is acting.

I can give you examples, but it is frustrating the work of this Province.  I want to make one appeal, take the bull by the horns, there is no sense in a Minister making application and the Commission making an application.  Let us make one application, I would not recommend the Judge President, let us get somebody who can give us a final ruling on this matter.

I want to say let us be united and I think the Portfolio Committee of Finance should reconvene.  They have pointed their way out.  It is a neutral structure between the Executive and the Commission, and let the Portfolio Committee advise the Premier, and the Premier should accept the advice of this Portfolio Committee.  I appeal to the hon Mike Sutcliffe not to play politics on this issue.  Let us be united.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mrs Downs for three minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I actually thoroughly agree with the principle of having a body that is not accountable to the Executive to oversee some of those things, but when a Minister of the calibre of the hon member Mr Peter Miller stands up in this House and says that he cannot do his work and that his Department cannot fulfil its objectives, then I have got to listen to that.

When I sit in Portfolio Committee after Portfolio Committee, and when the departments give their reports to the Portfolio Committee and they say, "We cannot do our work because this one is acting, that one is not fulfilled, that one is a problem, that one was sent back by the Provincial Service Commission", something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

I thoroughly agree with the proposal made by Mr Burrows that the Premier appoints a one man commission of inquiry into this and that we sort this matter out.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  Mr Mkhwanazi is not here.  I will then call upon the hon member Mr Tarr to address the House for ten minutes.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Chairman, I will not be as long as ten minutes.  I would like to take a slightly different tack to my speech today, and I think we should actually look at one or two fundamental principles.  I would like to look at those fundamental principles from a parliamentary point of view.

The Constitution very clearly spells out the functions and powers of Parliament and I refer members, without reading it out, to section 114(2) of the Constitution which spells out the powers of Provincial Parliaments.

Now you will realise that Parliament cannot carry out those duties unless it has institutions in place, such as the Auditor-General.  It cannot carry out its duties unless it has institutions in place such as the Provincial Service Commission.

If the Auditor-General or the Provincial Service Commission are to be able to do their job properly they must be neutral and free from any form of political interference at all.  If it is possible for a Government or this House or anybody to simply fire them then we make a mockery of this - the whole concept of the impartiality and independence.

So we are putting into place institutions which by their very nature, such as the judiciary, such as the Auditor-General, such as the Provincial Service Commission, parliaments here and elsewhere in the country rely on them in order that those parliaments are able to do their jobs.

What has actually happened in this House here today, I think is perhaps a great source of concern to all of us.  Quite clearly it may be necessary that the parameters within which a Provincial Service Commission or the new one created in terms of the new Act, the PSC Bill of 1997, needs to be clearly looked at.

Having said that, I think that most members here will agree that where we have reached the situation, where we have two organs of State, where they are both involved in litigation one against the other at great cost to the State, I think it is incumbent upon us as a Legislature to see whether there is not some other way of resolving this question.

I do not know all the details of this case, I am not at the rock face, as the hon Mr Miller is, I am not at the rock face as the PSC is, and it is very difficult when you have legal opinion from two sides, top and very highly respected legal opinion giving different viewpoints.  Then of course we must understand that lawyers give viewpoints against the background of the laws that exist against the sets of parameters that exist.

So what you actually need to look at then is at the fundamental principles and the parameters within which the PSC operates, because if you want to actually attack someone's argument, you do not look at the arguments, you look at the fundamental basic axioms upon which it rests.  We would need to look at that.

I would simply hope that there is some way whereby these two bodies of State can in fact be brought together, and made to sort of talk this thing through and reason this thing through, because life being what it is, you will know, that once people start communicating from a distance or through the press or via lawyers the original problem is exacerbated and becomes far worse than it originally was.  I would hope that there is some way whereby this matter can be resolved in some fairly amicable way without going through the whole process of litigation.

I would like to emphasise in conclusion what I have actually said.  We cannot function as a Parliament unless we have independent, impartial bodies such as this upon whom we can rely.  When in fact the integrity or the decisions or the rulings of one of these impartial bodies is brought into sort of question, then I think we have a serious problem.  We have a very serious problem, and it is something which I would hope that by getting the right people together we can sit down and talk about it without making a spectacle of ourselves.

Mr Chairman, I thank you for those few words.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Tarr.  Finally, I wish to call upon the hon Premier, Dr Ngubane, to respond.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Am I allowed to address.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh sorry, sorry, sorry.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  That is okay.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Oh wait a minute.  I am sorry, Dr Sutcliffe.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  I am quite happy to sit down.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Dr Sutcliffe to address the House for eight minutes.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Thank you, Mr Chair.  I rise because I was hoping this afternoon's debate would not focus on really some of the problems that we have, but we begin to look at the broader situation of the Public Service Commission.

Firstly, I want to remind this House about the Act that we passed in this Legislature a couple of years ago, because it is that Act and that is the law that empowers that Commission to do its job.  That Commission is accountable to this body even though it does not have a direct means of dealing with this body, and it was set up, the Constitution itself says that that Provincial Service Commission must act in a fair manner, it must be impartial and it must be independent.

Now the difficulty is when you look at that in a strictly legal sense, they have to act fairly, impartially and independently of even those institutions of State that appointed them.

The first issue we must recognise is that we have got to find ways in which we can take that strictly legal interpretation, and ensure that we are mediating a solution that is for the good of this Province.

The second issue that I believe is at issue here, is one of the constitutional imperatives that is given to this Commission, that says that they must operate in a non-discriminatory way and they must ensure that they are building a public service that is representative.  Ultimately that is what is at stake.

If you read this document here, the kind of management structures that we have inherited we know are the result of ~~apartheid~~.  We know that they are structures that have in top management less than 5% women contained in them and generally speaking, although there are Africans represented there, certainly we cannot say that Africans are truly empowered in those positions.

So part of their constitutional imperative is to begin to create a public service that in fact is not discriminatory and in fact is representative.  It is incumbent on us to find solutions.

The third point I want to make is that, let us firstly put aside the problems and look at the work they have actually done and I think we have to, whether we have got problems as members of the Executive or not, the work that this Commission has achieved is enormous.  The number of issues they have actually addressed and the speed at which they have addressed those decisions, I believe, is something we should be commending, irrespective of the particular complaints there are.

Unfortunately, they have not given information in this annual report that the Finance Committee got from the Committee, but actually tried to give a sense as to when they received from each department, for example, it's top structure posts, the date that that was submitted to the Commission, the date the Commission made a recommendation and the date the Commission conveyed that recommendation.  When you look at that you start realising that this problem does not just lie with the Commission.

In fact in every case they gave a response within two or three weeks.  Yes, one might say it was an inadequate response, that they responded and said, "You have not got enough women in your structure", or "You have got too cumbersome a structure", or whatever but they did reply within two to three weeks.  Then what you find is that there is another six month gap before the departments came back with another request to that Commission, and then two weeks later they got a response and another six months might pass in departments.

Those are the facts that we have to consider.  You have a situation that does embarrass this House, it is contained in the report here, where not only is the hon MEC of Education but also the Premier and Cabinet and this Legislature embarrassed because a decision is conveyed to the Director General in December, nothing happens.  In January another decision and nothing happens for more than six months.  No response back to say look, this matter is a serious issue.

What I want to ask is why do we not use the institution of this Legislature, because after all that Provincial Service Commission is accountable ultimately to this Legislature, to have assisted in that mediation process, because Portfolio Committees should have been brought in right at the early stage to assist in looking fairly at what the arguments are and seeing if, through persuasion, they can ensure that something happens.  There is something really wrong when it only gets to the Legislature after this matter has blown up.

The Finance Committee took its decision to say it is wrong for two institutions of State in the same Province, this is not a battle between Province and National Government, it is wrong that we actually have two of our own institutions going to court and spending hundreds of thousands of Rand in this.

It is wrong and we believe that decision of the Finance Committee is a correct decision, that we should not spend money on lawyers and I do not believe we should spend money on commissions of inquiry because I believe these issues can be resolved, if we allow that Commission to act fairly and independently, we allow the Executive to put its case and the Portfolio Committees assist in some of that discussion.  If it is then necessary to say listen one side in this matter is completely wrong, then let us change that decision.  If, however, we believe there is a mediated solution let us find it.

Really, what we must urge here is that we do not behave to throw out the baby with the bath water because a lot of valuable work has been done if for no other reason than that Commission is bringing to bear the issue of representivity and the issue of non-discrimination.  It is two fundamental principles on which to build that public service, we have done a lot of good.

Yes, there are going to be issues, and I would urge that the Premier in his concluding comments would reflect on that matter.  I believe we can mediate this thing because these issues when they came to us should never have reached these learned legal people of this Province.  They should have come to, for example, Portfolio Committees or a means of mediating earlier.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Two minutes left.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  So could we suggest then in my summary argument, that the facts of the matter are that we have to move from a system that was founded on discrimination and it was founded on non-representivity.  We have got to move to a system that is not discriminatory and is more representative.  Let us mediate our way there.  Thank you, sir.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Dr Sutcliffe.  Finally, I wish to call upon the Premier to make his input.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  I would like to thank the hon members for bringing a lot of sense and effective advice on this issue.

I have a date to meet with the Provincial Service Commission very soon, and I do hope out of that meeting will flow a lot of valuable actions.  One of the actions will be to call in the Portfolio Committee to help us resolve this issue.

Unfortunately this issue has been bedeviled by a lot of emotion, a lot of face-saving and very little of facing the realities of our situation.  

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  On a point of order, Chairperson.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Can we hear the point of order.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  I am sorry to interrupt the hon Premier, but I believe that I do hear a cell phone ringing.  I am not sure whether it is coming from members or from the gallery.

MRS O E FORD:  My apologies, Mr Chairman and Mr Premier.  I have switched it off.  I thought I had before I came in here.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Ford.  Members are reminded, and the public as well, that cell phones should be switched off.  Thank you.  You may proceed, Mr Premier.

THE PREMIER:  In the words of James Madison, that great thinker in American constitutionalism, his dictum was, "Employ ambition to counter ambition".  Therefore the principle of the separation of powers is a holy principle when we come to constitutionalism.

Therefore I will be very saddened to see the Provincial Service Commission being abolished.  I will certainly not rejoice about this because it detracts from our commitment to subsidiarity and to doing things where they should best be done and the Provincial Service Commission is absolutely necessary for efficiency, effectiveness and appropriateness of Government departmental functions, particularly the thinking about posts, structures, the whole rationalisation process.

On the strength of the work that they have done, I would like to commend and congratulate our Provincial Service Commission.  The difficulties that we have experienced are nothing else but human.  I would be very sad if we end up facing each other in court.  This will be ridiculous really.  Although of course in a situation of conflict those positions arise and decisions are taken at times.  Now we have got a window of opportunity to resolve these differences and to contribute to the effectiveness of our Government.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

VOTE 16: THE PUBLIC PROTECTOR

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  We will now move on to the next vote, that is vote 16 which deals with the Provincial Public Protector and again I will call upon the Premier, Dr Ngubane, to address the House.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Vote 16 is about the Public Protector.  Mr Chairman, members of this Legislature will recall that the Legislature, during its May/June 1995 sitting, considered and passed the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Public Protector Bill.  The Provincial Act, Act No 9 of 1994 was promulgated in the Provincial Gazette of 23 August 1995.

Members will have noticed that the KwaZulu-Natal Act was based on the provisions of the interim Constitution which clearly provided for provinces to establish an institution of Provincial Public Protector.  Although the current Constitution does not contain similar provisions, it also, as far as I could ascertain, does not make provision for the abolition of Provincial Public Protectors as is the case with Provincial Service Commissions where there is specific provision to enact legislation for their eventual abolition.

I am of the opinion that the institution of Provincial Public Protector is of great importance for the Province, and I will personally see to it that we obtain the necessary legal opinion as to the best manner in which to effect the necessary changes to our Provincial Act in order to remove any uncertainty that may exist as a result of the replacement of the interim Constitution by the current Constitution.

The passing and subsequent promulgation of the Act is an indication of the commitment of this Legislature and Executive to use all means available to ensure that public administration in this Province is conducted in such a manner that any attempt by an individual or individuals to abuse power or enrich himself, herself or themselves, is discovered and acted upon.

There is absolute commitment to transparency and the electorate at all levels are in fact encouraged to make use of any available means to bring possible improper or unlawful activities to the attention of the Government and its organs instituted to combat maladministration.

The attention of the Government is, however, not only focused on all types and forms of crime, but in fact on any type of misdemeanour, whether it may lead to criminal prosecution, civil action of disciplinary proceedings.

In respect of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Public Protector Act, Act No 9 of 1994, members may well ask, "Why, since its promulgation in 1995, has nobody been appointed as Provincial Protector?"

This is a fair and reasonable question that deserves consideration.  Although I was not part of the Executive or Legislature at that stage, and can therefore not really give a satisfactory reply, I can give a commitment from my side that I will endeavour to expedite proceedings to ensure the speedy appointment of a Provincial Public Protector, should all parties agree thereto.

The Act under discussion provides in section 2 that:

	The Premier shall, in consultation with the National Public Protector, appoint a Provincial Public Protector for the Province a person -
	
	(a)	Nominated by a committee of the Provincial Parliament consisting of one member of each political party represented in the Provincial Parliament and willing to serve on such a committee.

It is therefore up to the Legislature to empower me to appoint a candidate as contemplated in subsection (a) of section 2 of the said Act.

I wish, however, to stress the importance of nominating a person of such standing in the community at large, that he or she will have credibility on all levels of society and will therefore be acceptable for this position of high trust and responsibility.  All parties should approach this nomination in such a manner that they will not try to satisfy party political aspirations and considerations, but only the best interests of the Province and its people.

Having acknowledge that we have not perhaps accorded the highest priority to the appointment of a Provincial Public Protector, I must rush to point out that this apparent lack of urgency does not mean that nothing has been done to address maladministration and corruption in the meantime.

Without going into any detail, I must direct members' attention to the programme for good governance and the attempts in terms of that programme to improve service delivery, eradicate bad behaviour and instill a positive and sound work ethic.

I must also refer to the Government's anti-corruption campaign and the successes already achieved in trying to rid the administration of fraud and corruption.

The personnel audit currently being undertaken in all provincial departments is another example of the Government's commitment to ensure sound administration and the best utilisation of one of the scarcest commodities, namely money.

The activities of the South African Police Services and, more specifically, that of the Commercial Crime Units in fighting commercial crime that runs into millions every year, bear mentioning.

The private sector unfortunately does not escape the scourge of corruption, fraud and theft.  I must, however, give credit to the private sector for their support to the Government to, not only eradicate corruption and maladministration in the public sector, but also to rid the private sector of the same evils.  Programmes such as "Business Against Crime" helps to strengthen the Government's hand in this regard.

The role that organised labour can play, and in fact, does play in instilling a sound work ethic must be acknowledged.  To this end, a joint workshop was held between management and organised labour where a set of guidelines on work ethics for the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration was agreed upon.

I would lastly like to acknowledge the role of the press as watchdog over public affairs and wish to encourage them to investigate all possible transgressions thoroughly, but to do so in a fair and objective manner.

I see the appointment of a Provincial Public Protector as one further step in our fight against crime, corruption, maladministration and all other evils that bedevil the sound workings of our Government and its institutions.

Vote 16 makes provision for R500 000 for this financial year.  Given the fact that we are already two months into the financial year, I believe that the amount as budgeted will suffice to get the institution of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Public Protector established and that any money spent on this institution for this and any other subsequent financial years will be to the best advantage of the Province and all its people.

It will also guarantee to our citizens that they have access to redress where they have been unjustifiably badly treated or wronged.  I thank you, Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  Our second speaker on the list is the hon member Mr Jeffery who will address the House for five minutes.

MR J H JEFFERY:  Thank you, Mr Chair.  Mr Chair, it goes without saying that this matter has dragged on for some time.  The Act was passed in, I think it was March or April 1994.  It took over a year to be promulgated and nothing has happened since then.

I would appeal to the Premier to look seriously at the legal issues, and whether the Province is still empowered to have a Provincial Public Protector.  At the moment in terms of the National Public Protector Act there is mention of Provincial Public Protectors, but I do not know whether there is any intention of amending that Act.  So I would really suggest that the legal issue is gone into, number one.  Number two, that the intentions of the National Assembly, the National Parliament are also considered very seriously because they could make a change.

The rest of what I want to say is really in the form of questions.  The key issue is really do we need a Provincial Public Protector, given the budget constraints facing our Province?

I am not sure how much the budget for the Provincial Public Protector translates to in terms of how many schools can be built, how many clinics, how many houses, but when one is weighing up that issue and the concerns that have been raised by other departments of a lack of money, is this actually really a priority?  The Province does have access to the National Public Protector.  Has that route been followed and if so, have there been any problems with it?  So let us really evaluate the situation given the conditions and the routes that are available to the Province.

If there is a need, as part of the good governance programme of the Province, to have a position like this, does it actually need to be something as big as a Public Protector?  One of the concerns is that the Provincial Act talks about the Provincial Public Protector being paid:

	The remuneration and other terms and conditions of employment of the Provincial Public Protector shall be the same as that applicable to a Judge of the Supreme Court.

I would imagine then that a large bulk of the budget in this vote would be going to the salary and the package of this Provincial Public Protector, and you could end up with a very good person as Provincial Public Protector, but if they do not have the machinery to investigate, it is a waste of money.

So I do not know whether, if the intention of the Province is still to keep this, whether one needs to continue with a person in the position that was originally envisaged, because of budget constraints.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION

MR J H JEFFERY:  Well, if it earns more money maybe.  So really, the issues that I wanted to raise are that let us look at this in the light of the budget constraints facing us, the needs of the people of the Province, the other avenues that are available to the Province, let us conduct a thorough evaluation of this before rushing into appointing someone and let us see, even if we do decide we do need a person in that kind of position, whether the existing legislation is still applicable to our circumstances now, in particular the whole issue of the payment of that person.  I thank you, Mr Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Jeffery.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mrs Galea who will speak for five minutes.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  Vote 19 decreased by 40 000 and this Legislature passed our Public Protector Bill in 1994, and this is the third time I have actually got to speak on this and every time I have mentioned the gender issues.  So when the Premier, in consultation with the National Public Protector, I hope he will remember the gender issue as well.

I see the hon John Jeffery is on the other side.  I just wanted to say we have the anti-corruption and fraud campaign.  We have got the Independent Complaints Directorate and I was just wondering now should we get the Public Protector.  Would this fall away or would we still have this because, as I said yesterday in my Safety and Security debate, that I do feel crime is priority number one, and we must use as many mechanisms as we have to actually get our Province back into order, and even this morning, with Religion Against Crime, I think that is also a very good initiative taken by the Province.

We passed this last year, and it is in our Constitution, so, Mr Premier, I will wait and just see whether we are still going to include the anti-corruption and fraud campaign as well as the Independent Complaints Directorate.  I thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Galea.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr I C Meer who will speak for five minutes.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Chairman, if you do not know and if the House does not know, this side of the House not only asked questions, as Mr Jeffery has done, but endeavours to answer them and that would be my difficult task.  I want to say at the outset that I support the budget provision in respect of this matter.

Let me say that there is an old saying about procrastination.  I do not know what it steals.  In this particular case it has stolen from the right of the people to have easy access in respect of any grievance that they may have, and that is an error which you must rectify.

I want to also suggest to the hon Premier, that the nominees of the political parties on the Committee of the Premier, should be summoned with some urgency, and I say that because my party has elected me to be on that Committee.  We should pay our attention to this matter as a Committee even before we nominate the person.  We must also then consider the possible person that should be nominated, and I say this for very good reasons.

I say this because even if there are legal restrictions on our implementing our own law in this matter, a law which was passed before the National law, we have a way of remedying the position.  We can in fact think of the name, we can go into the legal position and even if we have not got the right we can suggest to National Parliament that that particular person should be appointed as present in this Province under the National provision.

I want to also point out that one swallow has never made summer and one Baqwa cannot in any way solve the problem that he faces.  In other words, the winter of discontent in this Province will continue and no summer will come as far as grievances are concerned, unless we have the physical presence of a person under National or Provincial to deal with the problem.

This is very fundamental.  The Bill of Rights is meaningless unless people have access to it.  Human Rights Commission, meaningless until people have access to it and the Public Protector's office is meaningless unless the average person in the rural areas, in particular, have access to that person.  We must make it known that so and so is responsible for listening to the grievances.  At present we have a vacuum with regard to that matter in this Province, which must be rectified.

I know that the Premier is not responsible for procrastination.  He is a man of vigour and speed and I hope that vigour and speed will continue with regard to this matter.  We have an urgent need to implement a matter on which this House had a very full discussion, resolved that, and passed a law.  That law has now to be implemented.

Whether it is a Provincial competence or a National competence we want in this area a functioning Protector.  That Protector's function is to see that anything wrong done by even members of this Legislature is brought to the notice of a higher authority which can adjudicate over us.  So we require that adjudication for everybody and that watchdog for everybody including ourselves.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Meer.  Our next speaker will be the hon member Mrs Downs who will speak for two minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  I will tell you now why we need a Public Protector in the Province.  This is said with the greatest respect for the National Public Protector, it is through no fault of his own.  We made a complaint over three months ago to the National Public Protector which to date we have not received a reply from.

I cannot blame him because I know that if he is receiving complaints from all over the country.  He (and his staff) must be absolutely inundated.  I would ask the Premier to act upon this as soon as is humanly possible, and I would ask the majority party to convene the multi-party committee of this House which needs to be involved in that appointment forthwith.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mrs Downs.  Next on the list is the hon member Mr Powell who will speak for 15 minutes.

MR P C POWELL:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I certainly do not intend to make use of the full 15 minutes and I am sure members will be grateful to hear that.

I rise to participate in this debate from a slightly disadvantaged position in that I was not party to the process which led to the adoption of the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Public Protector Act of 1994.

I was, however, extensively involved in the process of adopting the Provincial Public Protector Act No 23 of 1994, in the former Senate, which was formulated in the backdrop to this legislation and also of course shaped in terms of the requirements of the 1993 Constitution.

While it is correct that the Constitution of 1996, makes no mention of the Public Protector, I certainly would like to lend my party's support to the Premier's call for us to translate this legislation into action as soon as possible.

I was fortunate, both as the Chairperson of the Theme Committee Six of the Constitutional Assembly, until my party left the Constitutional Assembly, and as a member of the Justice Committee and furthermore, as a member of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence to look extensively at the role of Public Protectors, and also ombudsmen or as the politically correct amongst us like to refer to them, ombudspersons.

The role of these persons in our modern democracy was brought home to me during a trip to Germany where we met with the military ombudsman, who is the person who is responsible for dealing with any grievance which emanates from an ordinary member of the German Defence Force.  One was immediately struck when meeting this person, in this case a woman, of the enormous power which she had to influence the outcome of events which influenced ordinary soldiers who are serving in the army.

During the debate which took place in the Constitutional Assembly, one of the things that was recognised was the need for those institutions of State, especially the security institutions, where the right to strike is limited, where there are certain constraints placed on individuals serving in those services, that the Constitution and the law must offer them an extra degree of protection and that in exchange for them surrendering the right to strike and to organise, they should be afforded a very special degree of protection and hence an ombudsman.

What also struck me in listening to this particular person was that she dealt with cases ranging from very mundane matters to matters which implicated members at the highest level of command in abuses against ordinary members of their department.

Bringing this all back to our Provincial position, I think that there has been an enormous focus in the media on corruption and to some extent even maladministration within some of our Government departments, but there has been very little focus on the interface between the private sector and the civil service.  For a civil servant to be bribed there has to be a person or a corporation out there which is actually offering the money.

One of the key roles which the Public Protector can play is to go after that person, and I think that all of the mechanisms, the safety net that we put in place to root out corruption in the civil service is somewhat meaningless unless there is a person like the Public Protector that can go into and look into complaints by individuals who feel that they have been disadvantaged or their rights violated.

I think that the report submitted by the National Public Protector to Parliament indicated numerous problems.  Firstly, he identified his lack of capacity in terms of adequate funding and staff to adequately carry out the mandate given to him.  He also indicated that he was under enormous pressure due to the workload of complaints brought to him.

I think that the lesson that we can draw from that is that something as important, something which has to do with the fundamental rights of our citizens, like the Public Protector, is one of those areas which lends itself to the institution being as close to the people as possible.  With that in mind it would be extremely desirable for us to put Provincial mechanisms like this in place, and more importantly to give them the necessary capacity to make sure that they can deliver on the expectations which exist amongst our people for the entrenchment of a human rights culture.

I think that lest I be accused of using my full 15 minutes, I would like to point out that the budget allocated to this particular office is a very small one, and that our Bill stipulates that the person should be paid the salary of a Supreme Court Judge.

If and when we implement this legislation we must be careful that we empower that person, we give that person the capacity to deliver, and obviously with a budget like this when we come to next year's budget we are going to have to look carefully at how much we give this person.

Mr Chairman, it is a pleasure to participate in this debate.  I think that all of us members of Parliament are faced daily with people who come and knock on our doors asking us to help them with problems, and we should all support this here because the Public Protector is going to help us to do our job properly.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Powell.  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Burrows who will speak for three minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Chair.  I am pleased that the hon member Mr Powell has so effectively covered the importance and the necessity of having a Public Protector within this Province.

I just want to cite from some Provincial examples why I would strongly support the view that there should be a Provincial Public Protector and that he, or she, be adequately funded in office.

First of all, let us understand that the Public Protector is essentially the citizen's voice, and the citizen's arm.  Most members of the Executive actually do not like Public Protectors or ombudspersons, because they go and investigate and they have got powers to look in the dark places where even we as members of Legislature have difficulty in getting answers.

So it will be important for the Legislature and for the citizens as a whole to have Public Protectors, but equally for the members of the Executive.  I just want to quote some examples that we saw on the front pages of newspapers that should have been achieved by the Public Protector going in, investigating, resolving the problem before they became public issues.

The one I can cite immediately is the question of social pensions and the backlog in social pensions.  I know the Minister of Welfare will be talking about it when we come to his vote on Monday.  There is a backlog.  It was approaching 35 000 and two persons who applied for pension in 1994 and had never got anywhere near it being considered went to the High Court.  The High Court in an out of the court ruling said it is actually the official's responsibility and if the officials do not handle these cases quickly enough they must pay out of their own pockets.  It is precisely those kind of things that the ombudsperson, the Public Protector can get in, can investigate and can provide a solution.

Another one is the school feeding scheme.  The school feeding scheme in this Province just is not working.  It is not working because there is not enough attention in health and education to put training of the people on the ground to make sure that accounts are paid.  There is a problem in health for example, in the question of who receives medical attention.

I simply want to say we must have a Provincial Protector, we must give him or her the capacity to run the office, and we must not be scared when they come and investigate this Provincial Legislature and say we do not have the capacity to provide the public who are disabled to come and watch the proceedings of this Parliament.  We should actually be making provision for them.  So we are also guilty in that, and are likely to be investigated.  Thank you, Chair.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  Finally, I wish to call upon our Premier, Dr Ngubane, to respond to the members' inputs.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  I am very grateful for the contribution of members to this debate.  I would like to thank all the members and of course say that Mr I C Meer again, typical of his style and wisdom, has given us the lead here.

Let us look at the legal provisions.  If there are any conflicts between the Acts that we already have and the new Constitution, let us be advised appropriately.  That the multi-party committee already exists and let us approach this committee timeously again and I propose to do just that.

Of course the issue of gender will feature very prominently as the members deliberate on the possible nominations.  After all it will be us who will be doing the nominations and so we will be true to the prioritising of gender issues.

As far as the provision of the funds is concerned.  It is true that we are faced with serious budget constraints, but as the hon members have pointed out, this is one of the most fundamental institutions in the administration of the rights culture, the Bill of Rights, access to justice and so on and access to redress.  We cannot afford not to have such an institution.

Some other institutions such as the Human Rights Commission can function very well at the Central level, but the Public Protector function is one of those that must be decentralised because it deals directly with people's needs and with providing solutions to people who by and large will not be seen sympathetically by the bureaucracy.

So I thank the members and do say that I will seriously expedite this process of appointing the Public Protector.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Premier.  Hon members, Mr Rajbansi raised an issue that in fact the way we have been doing things up to now was not the correct one.  In fact before we end our committee stage on each day we are supposed to hand over to the Speaker and report to him.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Chairman, on a point of order.  I think one should point out that hon members who raised points of order demanding that other members of the House remain until the end of the session should themselves remain until the end of the session.

DR M O SUTCLIFFE:  Could we suggest that none of us tells Rajbansi that you have not handed over properly.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Well, since the hon Speaker is here I will do as required by the regulations.  Mr Speaker, I wish to report that the Committee of Supply has met and deliberated on vote 10 and vote 16.  We have not concluded the business of Committee and I wish to request leave to meet again on the next sitting day of this House.

THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE ADJOURNED AND THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The House resumes.  Thank you, Mr Deputy Chair, for the report on progress.  I now wish to give the opportunity to the Premier to make such announcements as he may have.

THE PREMIER:  I have no announcements.  Thank you, Mr Speaker, there are no announcements except to tell you that we have had a very profitable debate this afternoon.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Premier.  I therefore have no alternative but to close the day on this note where there has been this profitable debate.  I hope that this will continue and be the trend until the end of this debate on the budget.  I now adjourn the House until tomorrow morning, Thursday the 15th at 9 o'clock.  The House stands adjourned.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 16:14 UNTIL
	9:00 ON THURSDAY, 15 MAY 1997

		DEBATES AND PROCEEDINGS OF
	KWAZULU-NATAL PROVINCIAL LEGISLATURE

	FOURTH SESSION
	FOURTH SITTING - NINTH SITTING DAY
	THURSDAY, 15 MAY 1997

THE HOUSE MET AT 9:07 IN THE LEGISLATIVE CHAMBER, PIETERMARITZBURG.  THE DEPUTY SPEAKER TOOK THE CHAIR AND READ THE PRAYER.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  

2.	OBITUARIES AND OTHER CEREMONIAL MATTERS

3.	ADMINISTRATION OF OATHS OR AFFIRMATION

4.	ANNOUNCEMENTS BY THE SPEAKER

I have no announcement to make save to just raise a concern.  A concern that for a few minutes we were not sure whether we should start because we did not have a quorum.  I am appealing to the Whips, especially the Chief Whips, can we do something about the starting time at 9 o'clock if it is 9 o'clock and at 10 o'clock if it is 10 o'clock, just to ensure that we are not delayed by having to count.  That is just a concern that I am raising.

5.	ANNOUNCEMENTS AND/OR REPORTS BY THE PREMIER

The hon Premier.

THE PREMIER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I would like to support the Speaker's request that we all come in on time and, of course, this is directed to my colleagues in the Executive.

Yesterday, for an hour, the Cabinet attended the launch of the project Religion Against Crime.  We gave our support to this project because it is important for society at large to realise that Government is serious about combatting crime and corruption in this Province, and hence we will support any initiatives from public sector institutions, such as Safety and Security.  This project has been launched by the National Commissioner of Police, Mr George Fivaz, but we also support projects and initiatives against crime from the private sector.

Professor Klaus Nürnberger, speaking at the launch of Religion Against Crime, gave us a document at the end which contained what he had to say.  What he had to say was both a situational analysis as well as a community of societal diagnosis of the ills that engulf us.

His analysis of our problems are so deep and precise and incisive, it is like a magnetic resonance which slices the brain in serial pictures, and you see exactly where the tumour or abscess is.  That is what he did yesterday.  So I will recommend to my colleagues, the hon members to get a copy of the speech and read it because it will contribute to our own efforts when we fight crime.  Thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon Premier.

6.	TABLING OF REPORTS AND/OR PAPERS

The hon Minister of Local Government and Housing.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Speaker, I table today the annual report and budget speech of the Department of Local Government and Housing.

I wish to emphasise to members that this is a single document which contains both sets of information and that it is clearly marked "Embargoed until delivered".  I stress for the sake of the media that are here, that this document is embargoed until delivered.

I have also asked that it only be distributed to those members that are in fact present here today, because I think the ultimate humiliation is when you come after the debate tomorrow and find that nearly all the wastepaper baskets are full of the document that you have spent so much time preparing trying to give members information.

If there are any members that in fact are not going to use the document please let me have it back.  There are many people outside there that can use the document.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Thank you very much.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, can we get clarification.  Has the hon Minister tabled the annual report or his speech?

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  I thought I had stated it quite clearly, sir.  I have tabled both the annual report and the speech which are contained in one document.  I have deliberately taken the chance because it is my desire that members should have prior access to the speech in order that they can participate vigorously and with meaningfulness in tomorrow's debate.  That is the reason why the document is embargoed until delivered.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, you see, the annual report cannot be embargoed but the speech can be embargoed.  Once an annual report is tabled it is a public document, but if the Minister gives members of the House a copy of his speech with an embargo, that embargo must be respected by the media and the members, but not the annual report.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Speaker, lest the member does not understand.  This document is headed, "Budget Speech Delivered".  So it is in fact a speech but it contains all the information that would normally be contained in an annual report.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, I do not want the hon Minister to be cocky with me "lest I understand" because the tapes of this record will show he says, "I am tabling the annual report and my speech".  So I understand very clearly and he must stop being cocky.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Can I request that we close this debate.  I take it the document has been tabled and there has been a request and it is clearly marked, "Embargoed".  Shall we then proceed with any further tabling of papers or reports.  The Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism.

MR J G ZUMA: (Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism):  Sorry, Mr Speaker.  I hope old people are allowed to break the Rules.  I think I do qualify to be one of the old ones.  I am not tabling any report.  I wanted to support the Premier because I think the point he made is very important.

I do not know how your House would want to deal with it because I think the presentation by the Professor yesterday emerging from this Province with his experience of crime and violence, I would go further to say is actually a contribution to the National, not only Provincial.  If you could find a way to actually sharpen the understanding of the people at National level by ensuring that this kind of presentation, and I do not know how this House could do it, to make it a point that it is actually made to reach the National, to be the critical leading aspect of how to deal with crime in this country.

I just wanted to support that and to say that I do not know how we could find a way to make it either a resolution or something that is actually specifically sent for people who deal with this matter.  That is what I wanted to do and I thought I could break the Rules and make that contribution because I think it is an important point.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Minister, I have accepted the breaking of the Rules.  I wish to just further say that I hope that the Premier and those who were present yesterday, at this activity shall make available to the Legislature that copy to ensure that it is distributed amongst all members, I hope with that some members may be able to pick up some of the important issues and formulate them into some kind of resolution.  I think the contribution is very useful.  Can we then follow that the Secretariat will ensure that we get a copy of that speech.

MR N V E NGIDI: (Whip):  Mr Speaker, a point of order.  There is a problem that I have been noticing, that the messengers, when they distribute reports and documents like that, they never leave a copy when one is not in your seat.

Now some of us are Whips and we have other duties to attend to which takes us out of the chamber.  Now it is quite inconvenient when you have come in here, having being attending to your Whip duties and you find that the paper which you should read is not on your desk.  I think that should be corrected, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I am hoping that that point is taken care of and that it will be done correctly next time.  We should have enough papers for each and every member and ensure that we deliver.  For those members who have not taken their documents we will then retrieve whatever we can retrieve.  I am hoping the messengers and the Secretariat will ensure that that is taken care of.

There is another issue that I just wanted, not really exploiting that I am the Speaker today, but I just want to say the words that were spoken by the Minister of Local Government and Housing are true.  Even us from the office of the Speaker, have been very concerned about documents that are distributed in the House but you then come across them here in the lobbies.  Everywhere on the chairs you come across those documents.  Why are we delivering them then instead of just taking them and putting them on those chairs and those tables.  We think that if they are given to members they should be taken care of carefully.  If members are not prepared to file them it is much better to return them.

It is always very, very, disheartening to come across very important documents lying around all over the precincts of Parliament.  Please, I am just re-emphasising the point that the Minister of Local Government and Housing has put forward.

7.	NOTICES OF BILLS OR MOTIONS

Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move tomorrow as follows:

	That this House is proud of the rich heritage of all the peoples' of our Province.

	It also recognises the role that was played by the Indian community by being brought to the former Natal colony under very difficult circumstances in order to save the economy of the Province from certain economic ruin and in spite of many legislation and policies that were designed to curb the Indian community with measures that could be likened to slavery, the Indian community has made its mark in our Province to such an extent that the hon the Leader of the IFP and Minister of Home Affairs, Dr M G Buthelezi, once remarked that the Indian businessmen were the engine room of our Province.  Even our hon State President, Mr Nelson Mandela, has praised the contributions of the Indian community in economic, educational and political upliftment of the people of South Africa.

	THEREFORE this House calls upon the hon Premier to arrange for the erection of an 1860 Settler Memorial honouring the arrival of the indentured Indian labourers at the site at which the SS Truro brought the first batch of Indians to our beloved country.

Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  That takes care of our item on the notices of Bills or Motions.  Oh, Mama Luthuli.

DR A N LUTHULI:  Mr Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move the motion on the next sitting day:

	That this Parliament of KwaZulu-Natal is deeply concerned at the consequences of the implementation of the voluntary severance packages under which so many qualified and experienced teachers have been lost to the Provincial Education Department.

	This House calls upon the Minister of Provincial Education to appoint a Commission to assess fully the consequences of voluntary severance and right-sizing on the immediate and long term objectives of improving the quality of Education in KwaZulu-Natal.

	It calls upon the Education Department to forthwith replace the teachers who have left the Department in large numbers at the end of April and to explain why, since their departure had been anticipated for many months now, the affected schools have been left without a full complement of teachers, resulting in student, teacher and parent protest, with many schools forced to close.

	In Stanger about 116 teachers have opted for severance packages and are unreplaced, similarly in some other areas.

I thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, hon member Mrs Luthuli.

8.	ORDERS OF THE DAY
	8.1	QUESTIONS

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, may I just take a point of order before we proceed.  Each member was sent from the hon Minister of Local Government and Housing a letter this morning on questions for oral and written reply, in which he requests, and I grant that it is a request, that members direct all the questions to his Department for oral reply.

I must say I actually do have a problem with that because in terms of our Rules there is a clear distinction between questions for oral reply and questions for written reply.  You can, for instance, have more sub-categories etcetera.  I think it is actually a request that is going to make the work of the parliamentary staff very difficult and that in practice is not acceptable.  We should work in accordance with our Rules and if members wish to table questions for oral reply they have the right to do so and if they wish to table questions for written reply they have the right to do so.  As I say, there is actually a difference between those two types of questions.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, on that point which was raised by the hon Chief Whip of the second largest majority party, I want to defend the hon Minister this time.  Convention which is not written into our Rules states that you table questions for oral reply only after having difficulty with the Minister or a department.  Our first line of approach is to write directly to the Minister.  If he gives us trouble or if he delays then you table that for oral reply.  That convention must be respected,  South African, Indian, Russian, Moscow, New York, Cuba, everything.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I think that that sounds very much, with respect, like a Rajbansi convention.  I have never heard of it before.  May I, however, just point out that whilst the Minister's request is a perfectly reasonable one, oral replies can only in fact be given in this House when it is sitting.  Every member of this House has the right in addition to table three written questions during every week when the House is not sitting.

We just make the clear distinction between the two that I think the Chief Whip of the ANC has made.  We would go along with the request of the Minister as far as it is possible, but there are many occasions on which it will not be possible.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The Minister.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  Mr Speaker, I was trying to be helpful to members, in order to ensure that they get the answers.  I am quite happy, they can ask the questions as they please.  Those who wish to take advantage of my offer are welcome to, those that wish to do it whatever way they do, really it does not mean a row of beans to me.  I was merely trying to be helpful and in the interests of transparency, and to get those questions answered here, so that other members could share the content of the answer and to give the opportunity for follow-up questions.  I was actually trying to illustrate a willingness to total transparency.  If that is to be spurned it really does not matter to me.  Thank you, sir.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  I have not seen the request from the Minister, but I am hoping that the interpretation of whatever has been given should be such that if it does infringe on the Rules we cannot do it, but if it does not infringe on the Rules and it can be done by those who wish to do it that way, then we will leave it at that.  In that instance, I have questions here.  Yes, Mr Minister.

MR P M MILLER:  (Minister of Local Government and Housing):  On a point of order, sir.  We have all received the programme for today which indicates that questions are to be answered this afternoon.  Motions and questions this afternoon and the debate.  Now, sir, if you are in fact going to have questions now, then you are going to have to allow us who are prepared and ready to answer those questions then simply to get hold of the necessary information, because we did receive documents emanating from the Legislature to the effect that questions are being answered this afternoon.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I need to get a directive from the Whips because when I work from here I work on the basis of the Order Paper.  I work on the basis that the Order Paper has been designed by the Chief Whip in consultation with the other Whips.  Can I then, Mr Chief Whip of the governing party, get an indication what the position is?  I have got 8.1 as being questions and that to me is an indication that we are dealing with that matter now.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, yes that is correct.  Questions originally were going to be after lunch, but there were problems with some of the Ministers being present after lunch and in particular the Premier.  So we put in questions now.  There is not a long question paper.  We should be able to deal with it within about half an hour.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  It is correct, that late yesterday afternoon we got an amendment that 9:00 to 12:30 will be Works, Questions 14:00.  May I suggest that if a Minister was not notified overnight of the change of this, that those Ministers answer the questions later and those who want to answer it now be allowed to do so.  We must also respect a notice we received yesterday and the Ministers went by this notice and they were not notified of any possible amendment.  Neither was I notified.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mrs Cronje.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I just want to say, I think Mr Rajbansi is correct.  Unfortunately, and this did happen right at the end of yesterday's sitting, it was brought to our attention that in fact some of our most senior Ministers had prior arrangements in Durban and it thus necessitated a change.  I think in fairness, as far as possible, we did convey that message to the Ministers orally.  I am sorry if some of them did not get the message and I think in the circumstances Mr Rajbansi is quite correct, that those who received the message now really should be given the opportunity and that we must then excuse the other Ministers and give them an opportunity after lunch.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I do not see any other way we can do it except as proposed, because it looks like in both instances it was an attempt to try and ensure that questions are replied to by Ministers and we will be losing nothing by giving a chance to those Ministers who have got answers ready and to those who will then after lunch give their answers.  Mr Meer.

MR I C MEER:  Mr Speaker, I accept what you and the Chief Whip of my political party say and although I have the greatest respect for God's creature the chameleon, I wish this will be an exceptional case that we will not have such changes imposed on us at such short notice.  Thank you, sir.  Again with due respect to the chameleon I sit down.  [LAUGHTER]

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Meer.  I am hoping that is chameleons and chameleons.  Well I am hoping that the Whips will work on clear processes in the future because even the question of communication with the relevant Ministers is crucial.  It does indicate that some Ministers were not aware of the change although they got the documentation yesterday.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS APPEAR IN THE IVORY PAGES IN VOLUME 6 1997. 

8.2	COMMITTEE STAGE : VOTE 14 - PUBLIC WORKS

I just wanted to assure myself of who was available and who was not for taking over the Chair.  I now transform the House into a Committee of Supply and accordingly call upon one of the panellists on the chairpersonship to take over the Chair and in this regard I wish to call upon Mr Haygarth to take over the Chair.  The House is transformed in Committee of Supply.

THE HOUSE RESOLVED INTO A COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE HOUSE

MR G HAYGARTH TAKES THE CHAIR

KWAZULU-NATAL APPROPRIATION BILL, 1997.

VOTE 14 : DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC WORKS

THE CHAIRPERSON:  It gives me great pleasure now to call on the hon Minister, Reverend Mtetwa, to deliver his budget speech.

REV C J MTETWA:  (Minister of Public Works):  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, in my preamble I would like to highlight the point that the Department of Works is a service department, that is, it performs essential functions on behalf of other provincial departments.  In order to be more effective and efficient in service delivery so that client departments are satisfied, my Department has devised several strategies which are already being implemented.  These strategies are intended to address all the shortcomings within the Department.  There are, however, some problem areas which have been identified as follows:

1.	Insufficient professional and technical personnel at the Head Office.

2.	Unavailability of professionals and senior technical staff in the Regions and Districts.

3.	Client departments not prioritising their needs timeously in order to give the Department of Works adequate time for planning and execution of projects within the financial year and further, client departments have a tendency of changing their priorities.

4.	Poorly defined Mission Statement of the Department did not serve as a source of inspiration to its employees.

5.	The lack of clear career path and support structures in the form of training/guidance produced uninspired and uncommitted personnel within the Department.

6.	Over dependence on consultants left the few technicians we have, confused and sometimes jobless.

In order to address the above problems, the Department has devised the following strategies.  Because of the time constraint, I will not go into details but nevertheless it will be comprehensive.  These strategies are intended to provide for personnel at the right places, to motivate staff and to keep a watchful eye on the overall performance of the Department.

The strategies are as follows:

1.	PROACTIVE POLICY:
	The Department will embark on a proactive policy when dealing with client departments.  Instead of waiting for the departments to submit their priority lists, the Department will approach and discuss needs with the departments and if necessary compile the lists together.  Further my Department will endeavour to encourage all departments to develop five year plans in respect of their accommodation needs.  Forecasting the needs of their departments is essential for the effective and efficient service delivery.

2.	PROFESSIONALS IN THE REGIONS AND DISTRICTS:
	In my opinion for this Department to become more effective in service delivery, the regional offices must be empowered by staffing them adequately with all kinds of professionals, including architects, engineers, quantity surveyors and technicians.  This exercise will assist the Department in monitoring the work done in the Regions closely and the supervision in the lower levels will be healthy and effective.  Another spin-off of this exercise is that it will reduce travelling by professionals from Head Office to site meetings or inspections.  Further this will promote a sense of ownership or belonging after the projects have been completed.

3.	REGULAR REPORTING POLICY:
	There will be regular reporting by the senior members of the staff in regard to their work performance.  This regular reporting will promote the Department's objectives of speedy service delivery to the communities and client departments.  A new computer programme, the Works Control System, (WCS) has been installed in the Department which will enhance reporting to client departments.  Each Regional Director and Director of each professional discipline will submit a report on his/her activities in the past two weeks to the Chief Director and these reports will then be forwarded to the Secretary and the Minister of the Department for their perusal.  Regular reporting also will include planning, documentation and construction stages of projects to ensure awareness by the client departments of the physical progress of the projects as well as the financial implications for the client, to ensure effective and efficient service delivery.

4.	FUNCTIONS PERFORMED BY WORKS DEPARTMENT:
	The departmental policy is that the work must be performed by the employees of the Department.  Before consultants or contractors are invited to do any work in any area within the Province, the departmental employees will be consulted to determine whether capacity is available to execute that work.  We will utilise the contractors when the necessity occurs but PREFERENCE will be given to our staff first.  By doing this, the transfer of skills and empowerment of the people will take place.  Capacity building is the buzz word of the day.  Department of Works is no exception.

5.	DEVELOPMENT AND TRAINING POLICY:
	For the past decade there has been a shortage of qualified professional and technical personnel in the Department.  In order to address this, the Department has embarked on a training programme not seen before.  The trainees are at technikons and universities studying Engineering, Architecture and Quantity Surveying.  They will enter into contract with the Department.

	I am confident that my Department is gearing itself for great things.  With these strategies, my client departments will soon be receiving their goods in good time.  I will talk in more detail about development and training of personnel later in my budget speech.

	I regarded it as very important to commence my speech by dealing with innovative strategy to improve the service delivery in the Department.

It is evident to all that our principal concerns in this Province should be the restoration of peace and the reinstatement of appreciation of human life.

I say this because even today the pockets of violence still exist despite numerous meetings held with communities concerned and countless promises made by their leaders to prevent their followers from indulging in violence.  Even today, life is still being destroyed through wanton and mindless violence.

It is this kind of violence which is holding back development in certain townships in the Province.  My Department as a service department, encounters difficulties in the execution of its duties in these areas because thugs and criminals threaten the lives of departmental workers and contractors employed by the Department.  As I am talking to you now, colleagues, there are several projects which have had to be shelved because of this violence in our Province.  If this violence of thuggery continues then our planned development programmes in certain areas will come to a standstill.

Turning back to the business of the day, the Department of Works has a responsibility to manage its departmental affairs.  Our main task, as a service department, is to create the infrastructure for provincial departments.  Without proper accommodation no serious business will ever take place within the Department, hence my Department is creating a strong Real Estate component which will handle the rentals of office accommodation where needed.

In the areas, where rented space is NOT available, my Department is left with no alternative but to erect the buildings in order to provide that accommodation which suits the client's needs.  I would like to refer you to my Department's Annual Report with specific reference to our Mission Statement.  It is my business to satisfy the official accommodation needs of all the departments within the Administration.  It is also my business to provide good quality office space so that Government employees can easily render good services and increase productivity.

Let me tell a short story of "A tale of Three Cities" (I know you are used to "A tale of Two Cities").  This story is about hired/leased accommodation used by the provincial departments.  In Pietermaritzburg we are fortunate enough to have a number of Provincial buildings like Natalia etcetera which play an important role in housing the departments.  I wish to report that Natalia is now over congested and additional accommodation is being sought.  The Department is contemplating purchasing certain buildings in the city when funds are available.  At this stage names of buildings will not be released.  The total cost of rented space is R7,1 million per annum.  To this add the accommodation costs for the Provincial members of Parliament during the session in this city.  In Durban we have State buildings like Malgate House, Bourquin, Mayville etcetera but in spite of that our total annual rental is R18,24 million.  There are plans to purchase or pay off leases of certain buildings if funds become available.  The third city is ~Ulundi~ where office accommodation is entirely provided by the Provincial Buildings.  Like the two sister cities, ~Ulundi~ has its own problems.  Two departments are housed in the Legislative Assembly which is intended for legislators and the members of this Parliament made it loud and clear that they are not prepared to share accommodation with the departments.  Because rented accommodation is not available in this town, my Department was left with one choice, to erect new buildings.  Further, the Provincial Department of Education, the second largest organisation after the South African National Defence Force in the country, is badly located at the present moment.  The senior officials of this Department, like Deputy Director General or Chief Directors are on open space while in smaller departments such officials have privacy.  The new buildings at ~Ulundi~ will address all these problems which in fairness constitute unfair labour practice.  It is my business and responsibility to provide decent accommodation for our provincial educators so that they can increase productivity in their performance.

Further, the members of the Legislature are comfortably accommodated without any direct expense to the Province.  This is another big saving to the Province.

My Department has committed R1,2 billion for 161 capital works projects.  These projects are at different stages of completion and others, like the new Durban Academic Hospital will be completed in 1999.  Like in the past years, Departments of Health and Education and Culture continue to dominate the development arena and these two giant departments have committed capital projects with a total project value of R1,1 billion!  Unfortunately, more billions of Rands are still required to address the backlog in schools and primary health centres.

During this financial year we will commit new capital funds with expenditure to the tune of R106 million in various areas throughout the Province.  The rest of the capital funds are for completion of the existing projects.  Approximately R220 million for the new Durban Academic Hospital will come from the National Department of Health.  This is the biggest project my Department has ever undertaken and we have ensured through contract documentation that the previously disadvantaged persons participate fully during the construction period.  I am proud once more to announce that over 2 000 persons will be employed during the erection period and the emerging entrepreneurs stand a good chance of developing.  There will be the transfer of skills both technical and managerial to the previously disadvantaged people.

Further, the Capital funds will have to address the accommodation problems of the most senior chief executive officers of the Province.  The Premier and Director General do not have offices of their own.  They are temporarily accommodated.  The Premier is presently housed in the Legislative Assembly and the legislators made it clear that the Premier should quit that office and the Speaker of the House should occupy it.  The Director General is perched somewhere in the Administration Block.  Colleagues, I consider it my responsibility to restore dignity to our leaders in the Province.  The Premier's Department and office should symbolise the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

We will be erecting Welfare Offices throughout the Province.  In the past, the Magistrate offices were accommodating all the personnel from the Department of Welfare.  With the new political dispensation, the Welfare Department must have their own offices.  My client department will require more funds to address office space, particularly in the rural areas where people are expected to travel long distances to initiate their applications for pensions and grants.

I suggest that those members who are interested in detailed reports with regard to ongoing capital works to refer to the Department's Annual Report for the year 1996 as well as the list of services attached to the hand-out of my speech.

It is essential that adequate funds be allocated in future for the maintenance of the existing buildings and structures.  We cannot go on creating new structures while existing structures are falling to pieces because adequate funding is not provided.  We do appreciate that our Province is the largest in terms of population, as a result we must provide new schools, clinics, office space etcetera but we should not allow our assets to deteriorate.  During this financial year we have only allocated R114 million to service the existing structures and this amount excludes funds from the Department of Education and Culture.  That Department has not yet decided how much it will suspend to my Department.  This represents about 20% reduction from what we had last year.

The final amalgamated structure of my Department has 6 904 posts.  This establishment consists of four Regions and the Head Office.  I am proud to announce that my four Regions virtually coincide with the boundaries of the political Regional Councils with each of my Regions containing two of the Regional Councils.  The Head Office has 344 posts, ~Ulundi~ Region 2 557, Durban Region 1 971, Pietermaritzburg Region 935 and Ladysmith Region 1 097 posts.  The Department has already started with the rationalisation process abolishing all non-key posts after incumbents have taken the severance packages.

The Department is dependent upon its human resources and therefore it cares about its personnel.  To prove this point, the Department has embarked on a training programme never seen before in its history.  There is now a large number of students at the University of Natal, Witwatersrand and Cape Town as well as at the Technikons in and around Durban.  These students are equipping themselves in Architecture, Quantity Surveying and Engineering.  The Department decided on this training programme because for the past decades there has been a shortage of qualified professional and technical personnel in the Department.  By this exercise, it is intended to eliminate once and for all the shortage of professionals and technicians in the Department.  Of course, this will be a medium term solution as these courses take several years to complete and up to three years for registration as a professional.  These young men and women will enter into contracts with the Department so that after their studies they will be bound by the contract to render services to the Department.

The Department is also paying attention to the present employees.  They have been afforded opportunity to study privately or on part time basis at the expense of the Department at institutions of their choice.

It is envisaged that the Department will spend approximately R2,5 million.  This forms part of the Department's commitment to the Affirmative Action principles and the empowerment of the employees.

In the filling of Management echelon vacancies, the Department experienced countless problems.  The posts referred to are one Chief Director and five Directors.  The posts were advertised both in the media and in the Public Service vacancy circulars in 1996.  Short listed candidates were interviewed towards the end of 1996.

In January 1997 submissions recommending the appointment of successful candidates were prepared and submitted to the Provincial Service Commission.  Thereafter the Commission issued a circular stating that all submissions to the Commission should be accompanied by the minutes signed by all members of the panel.  Although the circular was issued after all the submissions were referred to the Commission, these submissions were returned to this Department for compliance with the said circular.  For the post of Chief Director: Administration, the submission recommending the appointment of the successful candidate was forwarded to the Commission and it is still being argued by this Department and the Commission.

I must mention that the delays caused by the Commission are having a negative impact on my Department's performance.  If I had all these posts filled, I sincerely believe my Department would be serving its clients far better than it is.  Important items like Parliamentary questions would be attended to timeously and my colleagues would have no cause to cry.  We have to persevere.  We will keep knocking at the door of the Commission until all vacancies are filled.  My Department is working according to the guidelines as laid down in the Staff Code Manual.  The same problem is also experienced with the lower ranks.  Without being more specific at this moment, I am happy to say that the principle of Affirmative Action is applied in my Department.

To get to other practical matters, the Department of Works as a service department, is dependent on the co-operation of four major role-players being the client departments, Treasury, Works and the private sector or public for input for services needed.  It cannot operate without their co-operation for the success of building, maintaining and administering the large capital investment of the Province.  There are a number of basic requirements that are common to all four of these role-players, three of which are co-operation, communication and funds.

Funding for the basic line function of the Department is shown in programme 3 of the budget which shows an increase of only 15% and I wish to explain briefly my concerns and highlight some of the areas that should be noted.

The funds for maintenance were determined by balancing the total allocated amount with other requirements such as municipal services, personnel, administration etcetera.  The result of this exercise was that maintenance had to be reduced from R119 million to R114 million or 4%.  In real terms, however, it means a reduction of 14%.  The Department is most concerned that more funds could not be allocated to maintenance.  I think that a figure of R150 million escalated every year would have been more in line with the capabilities of the Department and the actual needs of the Province.

Funds for the Department of Health exclude provision for the Academic Hospital.  It is expected that this contract will require R212 million this financial year and funds will be transferred from the Department of Health.

The Departments of Health and Works facilitated a Hospital Audit which was then analysed by the CSIR and then further investigated by the departments.  This investigation resulted in a preliminary list of 69 services required to upgrade various hospitals in the Province.  Estimates are currently being prepared and it is expected to be executed over several years.  Funds for these services will also have to be transferred to Works should some of these projects start during the current financial year.

Still on the Department of Health, it is expected that R94 million will be spent on RDP clinics.  The real expected expenditure will therefore be approximately R428 million instead of R104 million.

The second largest client of the Department of Works is the Department of Education.  No funds have been allocated on the budget for the current financial year and it is not clear whether any new building work will be started.  However, the contracts for capital and maintenance work already entered into have created a commitment of R115 million which will have to be transferred to Works.  The Department of Works is currently awaiting further instructions from the Department of Education.

The budget indicates a substantial increase of R59 million for major capital works in the budget for Works itself.  This is due to an allocation of R70 million for the extension at the ~Ulundi~ Complex.  This project has been discussed in detail lately and the revisions requested will result that the full R70 million will not be spent in the current financial year and a saving is expected which will be calculated once the final briefs have been established.

Administrative red tape is still the most restrictive process in the timeous execution of contracts for the Department.  The uncertainty whether funds will be available together with the current tender procedures, make it impossible to plan and execute services within a financial year.  This together with changing priorities, has the result that time and money are wasted should the project not proceed.  The Department of Works would like to suggest that the budgeting process for major capital works be changed from an annual budget to a project budget where funds are voted per project and set aside for that purpose on a multi-year basis without the fear that funds will not be available the next financial year.  This will eliminate the delay of the execution of major services due to substitution with other services for the sake of balancing an annual budget.  The control over capital works will also improve as it can then be done on a project basis instead of an annual budget basis.  Smaller services like minor works and repairs to buildings can still be budgeted on an annual basis but the Department pleads for more delegation in respect of Tender Board procedures in order to shorten and streamline the time that it takes to advertise and accept a tender.

At the moment it takes six to eight months to plan, advertise and accept a contract for a building of R500 000 and another six to eight months to erect it.  A period of about three months can be saved in the planning and tendering process if the procurement delegations are adequate.

I wish to thank the management and personnel of Treasury and all client departments for their co-operation in the planning and execution of building services which must be a team effort to succeed.  Without their co-operation and dedicated assistance, the Department of Works will not be able to produce the intentions of this budget.  At the same time, I wish to thank my own staff for their patience and dedication.  Lastly but not least, I wish to thank the private sector and public at large for their co-operation, input and constructive criticism for at the end of the day they are the ultimate goal of our service in providing buildings for the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

The National Public Works Programme projects are progressing.  It will be remembered that my Department commenced with the Community Based Public Works Programme very late.  Our complete major projects in Indaleni is now 50% complete and the estimated cost is R6,00 million.  The Hlabisa road project is now 40% complete and the final cost will be R2,00 million.  I was merely highlighting the relatively large pilot projects.

Discussing the other CBPWP projects, I would like to mention to this hon House that our original allocation was R36,3 million and we have now expended about R25,409 million and the balance of R7,890 million will be spent before the end of June 1997.  R3 million was earmarked for management support.  At the end of this programme 170 projects will have been completed in virtually all the magisterial districts of the Province.  9 522 have been offered employment opportunities.  We are waiting for the allocation for this financial year.  No figures yet, but the Programme is on.

Now to consider the budget for the present financial year.  There is a slight increase in my Department's budget from R549 million to R595 million which reflects an increase of 8,3%.  This increase is due to the proposed office extensions in ~Ulundi~.  I would like to present my budget programme by programme.

PROGRAMME 1:	deals with "Administration" which contains personnel salaries and purchases of office equipment.  The allocated amount is R159,524 million which is 26,8% of the total budget.

PROGRAMME 2:	which deals with the "Acquisition and Disposal of Land" was given only R1,25 million which is a substantial decrease from R5,491 million.  This is less than 1% of the entire budget.

PROGRAMME 3:	refers to the "Provision of Buildings, Structures and Equipment" and is the important programme of the Department because it handles the line functions.  The allocation for this programme was increased from 386 million to 425 million.

PROGRAMME 4:	handles "His Majesty the King's Services and Auxiliary Services" and has been reduced from 9,07 million to 8,83 million.

The total budget excluding expected funds from the Department of Education and Culture is R594,949 million.

Mr Chairman, while I am proud of the achievements of my Department in the past year, there are no grounds for complacency.  I wish to ensure this House and the public at large, to whom we are all accountable, that it is my intention that the Department of Works will assume a new image in this year.  It will do all in its power to debureaucratise the existing processes, improve productivity and improve its client relationships.  As a service department it should do no less.  I thank you, Mr Chairman.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, the hon Minister.  Can I now call on the hon member Mr V V Mvelase in his capacity as Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee for 15 minutes.  The hon member.

MR V V MVELASE:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman and hon members of this House.  It is a great opportunity for me to be asked by my Whip to lead this debate after the unfortunate announcement of the resignation of a good and capable Committee Chairman, Mr Hugh Lee.

Mr Lee always wanted to see harmony and good relationship amongst the Portfolio Committee members and Department Directorate and other officials.  He performed his duties very well.

The Department of Works is a very important Department which essentially renders services to all departments and provides accommodation for the KwaZulu-Natal Provincial Administration staff.

The Department is responsible for the purchase and maintenance of offices and specialist accommodation.  In certain instances the Department is also responsible for the provision of housing for officials and members of the Provincial Legislature.

May I congratulate the hon Minister, Reverend C J Mtetwa, for his good and well delivered speech which dealt with a lot of projects done and those to be tackled in the near future.

Since I joined this Portfolio Committee, I have experienced a lot of difficulties facing the Department.  The Committee has had about ten meetings from last year up to now.  The Committee has dealt with various issues, ie new Durban Academic Hospital which is presently being constructed in Durban.  The Portfolio Committee recommended that an access road to the hospital be built.

The Committee also dealt with the issues of functions and personnel transfers from the Education Department to the Works Department.  This issue is a very delicate one and the Committee is still dealing with it.

The Department is expected to satisfy all its clients needs and yet, sometimes, gets a lot of criticism and is forced to undertake certain projects which other parties are not in favour of, ie renovating and building of the King's palaces and building of offices and the House of Traditional Leaders.

The majority of the citizens in KwaZulu-Natal are Zulus.  They love their King and our ~Amakhosi~ like other nations around the world.  We also wish to see other citizens of KwaZulu-Natal Province respecting our King and our traditional leaders.

We will not tolerate any denigration of our King and ~Amakhosi~.  We will defend and fight for the dignity of the institution, no matter what and how much it costs us.

Our Portfolio Committee has had no problem with the Minister of Public Works, he has been very co-operative.  Due to his tight Ministerial programme he could not attend all our meetings.  Nevertheless, he attended two or three meetings that was very much appreciated.  We would also appreciate it if he could attend all of them.

We are also pleased to have Mr J M Ngwenya as the Secretary of the Department.  He has been very helpful.  We also want to thank the following Directorate and Technical staff:

-	Mr J F Carstens, Chief Director
-	Mr P J Venter, Director : Programme Management
-	Mr J A D Blaauw, Director : Architectural Service.

We further want to thank Mr B P Mkhize, acting Chief Director of Administration.  We wish to see him permanently appointed as Chief Director without any delays.

We also want to thank Mr B P Khanyile, Director of the National Public Works Programme.  This programme started on the initiation of the National Department of Public Works with the allocation of funds from the RDP.  An allocation of R36,3 million was provided for this purpose.

The main aim of the Directorate is to assist communities in accordance with the principles of the RDP to provide for their own infrastructural needs.  This process is directed at empowering, capacity building and job creation through undertaking by the community of identified sustainable infrastructurally relevant projects.  The continuation of this project and adjustments of the budget will be very much appreciated.

The Portfolio Committee is not very happy about accommodation hiring costs.  We recommend that the Department buys some of the buildings and that these become assets of the Government.  In future those buildings can be sold if they are no longer needed.

We are very pleased to see the upgrading of the clinics in various areas, particularly at Vryheid and Bulwer.  The Buxedene Clinic in Vryheid will cost R959,135 and Mnyamana Clinic at Bulwer which will cost R1,362 million.

The construction of Gamalakhe College and Indaleni education trust is highly appreciated.  Durban Cultural and Documentation Centre repairs and renovations, Madadeni Welfare offices, LinduZulu repairs and restoration is also of high value.

DIFFICULTIES EXPERIENCED BY THE DEPARTMENT DIRECTORATE

1.	The hon Minister of Education has indicated that only R80 million is available for committed contracts for buildings.  It is known that both the Department of Education and Department of Works execute contracts for the erection of new contracts and maintenance of buildings.

	The Minister mentioned a figure in excess of R200 million.  Of this, the Department of Works alone needs R115 million.  This will mean that there are insufficient funds to transfer to Works to cover its commitments and will cause an overexpenditure within Works.  The problem must please be addressed.

2.	There is a broad unofficial co-operation between the two departments, but this has not been fully finalised and documented.  There is a dire need that the relationship should be finalised and approved by Cabinet.

3.	The staff of the previous Own Affairs performing a Works function has been incorporated in the Works structures and they are actually working with the Works Department, yet they are still being paid by Education.  The transfer of these personnel with the required funds should be addressed.  This was discussed in the Portfolio Committee of Works and despite various requests, has not happened to date.

4.	The situation as described above has led that staff working together under the same roof is dealt with in different manners when it comes to merits and other personnel matters, which in turn has led to low morale and dissatisfaction.

5.	It is reported that there is excellent co-operation between personnel of the two departments, but this is hampered by outstanding final agreements with regard to the split of responsibilities.



RESPONSE TO THE MINISTER'S SPEECH

Mr Chairman and hon members, I am now commenting on the speech delivered by the hon Minister.

The hon Minister highlighted some problems encountered by his Department and further told us the strategies devised by his Department.

I was impressed when he said his Department will embark on proactive policy when dealing with client departments.  Instead of waiting for the departments to submit their priority lists, the Department will approach and discuss needs with departments and if necessary, compile the lists together.

This is an excellent idea.  It will assist in eliminating delays and time will be saved and the implementation of the projects will be quicker.

He also spoke about empowering the regional offices by staffing them adequately with professionals, including architects, engineers, quantify surveyors and technicians.

Definitely, this exercise will assist the Department in monitoring the work done in the Regions closely, and the supervision in the lower levels will be effective.

I also agree and fully support the regular reporting policy.  This policy will make Regional Directors aware of what is going on in the field.  The foremen will supervise their workers and they will work closer with their workers.  The practice of doing their own private jobs during working hours will be stopped.

Last year during the debate of this vote, I complained about a lot of money being paid to the consultants.  In the Minister's speech he said:

	The Departmental policy is that the work must be performed by the employees of the Department.  Before consultants or contractors are invited to do any work in any area within the Province.  The Department will utilise contractors when the necessity occurs but preference will be given to the Department staff to transfer skills and empowerment of the people.

This policy will increase job facilities and our people will be employed in great numbers, thus increasing Government revenue by means of Pay-As-You-Earn.  The buying power will increase and more money for VAT will be paid in.

The hon Minister spoke about the Development and Training Policy.  I am also pleased that the Department has embarked on a training programme.  I also spoke about it last year.  Our people were deprived of such facilities, because black children were only able to be trained to become teachers, nurses, policemen, clerks and nothing else.

The question of thugs and criminals threatening the lives of the Department workers and contractors while working in the townships is a matter of great concern.  It needs a close look.  Leaders of the community, like some of us here, contributed to this problem when we told the youth to destroy everything built by the system and the so-called Bantustan Governments.

If you teach your dog to bite it will never stop biting because it was taught to bite.  Let us all go out and preach a gospel of reconstruction and development.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two more minutes.

MR V V MVELASE:  Thank you, sir.  Let us work together, our people must see us addressing their needs together.  Fighting talks must come to an end.

I fully support the erection of Welfare offices throughout the Province.  This will help our senior citizens to shorten long distances when going to apply for their pensions.

In conclusion, sir, I support the Minister and the budget as it stands.  Thank you very much.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now call on the hon member Mr A R Ainslie to address the Committee for 14 minutes.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson, for the chance to speak in this debate.

Perhaps before I start, I would like to respond to two things raised by the previous speaker, the hon Mr Mvelase.  The first is the resignation of Mr Lee and I also would like to add my disappointment to his at Mr Lee's resignation.  We are going to miss him, certainly on Works, the Environment Committee and definitely on Transport.  I do not know who is going to worry the daylights out of the Minister of Transport from now on when it comes to roads in the Eshowe area.

Then I also want to give the hon Mr Mvelase the assurance that we also on this side of the House would join him in defending the dignity of the King.  He must have no doubt about that.

MR V V MVELASE:  Thank you.

MR A R AINSLIE:  I would like to get to my main point immediately and that is that the Portfolio Committee on Works is finding it increasingly difficult to do the tasks that have been assigned to it.  These tasks are listed in the Rules of this House and they include monitoring, investigating and making recommendations relating to the Legislative programme of this House.  There are four main problems which are confronting the Committee.

1.	Lack of co-operation from client departments.
2.	Poor controls over the purchasing of and safekeeping of Government property.
3.	Recommendations of the Committee being effectively ignored.
4.	Vital information being withheld from the Portfolio Committee.

The situation became so serious that at its meeting on 24 January of this year, the Committee resolved to write a letter to the Speaker and inform him that the Works Portfolio Committee was not being taken seriously.  The Chairperson of that Committee then wrote such a letter, a copy went, I believe, to the leader of the House.

Several issues which have been before this Committee for several months and which remain unresolved illustrate the problems we face.

Firstly, the Asset Register.  During 1995 the Committee requested the Department to complete a register of all Government property.  Government land, Government buildings, Government vehicles.  Little progress appears to have been made with regard to that register.

Now we are well into 1997.  At its meeting on 18 October last year, the Committee was informed that a Deputy Director had been appointed to undertake this register.  In another report the Committee was informed that consultants, Theunissen and Jankowitz had also been appointed to compile the register.

Perhaps when the Minister responds later today or if he responds maybe in writing at a later stage, he will explain to us why there is a need for a Deputy Director to undertake this register and why also for consultants and perhaps how much the consultants.  And perhaps how much the consultants are being paid.

I also agree with the hon member Mr Mvelase, I am also concerned with the number of consultants that were used.  I could not find any reference to Theunissen and Jankowitz in the documentation regarding this matter, I think I had paged to number 300, there were perhaps another 300 and I should have gone on to 600, but I cannot find reference. I am sure it is reference to this company there somewhere.  How much they are being paid and with regard to this register, when is it going to be completed.

To the best of my knowledge, the only comprehensive report we have received with regard to this register is the one dealing with schools.  There are serious problems with that register on schools because they exclude schools which they should include and they include schools such as private schools which they should exclude.  There is a serious problem there.

The second illustration concerns St Anne's Hospital.  The St Anne's Hospital issue has been on our books since 1994, I think.  We had an interpellation in this House regarding this problem.  Our recommendations on St Anne's Hospital, which is being occupied by members of the SAPS, long ago, months ago, went to the SAPS Management Committee.  And we are still waiting for our recommendations with regard to that matter to be implemented.

The situation is far from satisfactory.  No maintenance is being done on the buildings occupied by the members of the police force.  Those buildings are deteriorating at a rapid rate.  This is very valuable Government property that we are looking at.

The third illustration is that the Committee has on several occasions expressed concern at the leniency with which civil servants who steal Government property are dealt with.  For example, with regard to the theft of furniture and other items from ministerial residences some months ago.  We were informed that a security guard had been charged and suspended with full pay regarding those thefts.

We were also informed by the Department that no internal disciplinary action could be taken against this culprit, because the furniture that he stole did not have a departmental mark on it, showing it belonged to the Department.  Now really, this is clearly nonsense and the Committee found this unacceptable.  We are calling for a tightening up on these regulations if in fact they do exist, so that culprits can be suspended without pay until such time as their wrongdoing is proved or disproved.

Then earlier this week the Minister of Education tabled his report.  If you look at the Minister of Education's report opposite page 14 there is a map which looks as if it has chickenpox.  It is full of red spots and those red spots sort of merge around places like Durban and make horrible red blocks.  If you look at this map each red dot indicates a school that requires structural attention or is unsuitable for educational purposes.

Part of the problem is what the hon Mr Mvelase referred to earlier on.  That is the long standing and ongoing problem between the Department of Works and the Department of Education.  First of all, regarding the transfer of personnel from Education to Works and perhaps more importantly with regard to the matter I have just raised, more importantly the dispute regarding the allocation of functions between the two departments, especially regarding capital works and maintenance work.

The Committee, the Cabinet, Commissions and meetings have been held, I do not know, for a year, for two years regarding this matter.  I am absolutely at a loss now as to know where exactly we are with regard to this dispute between those two Ministers, who are in the same Province, the same country, the same party and the same front row of seats here.  But what I do know is that we see the result and there is the result.  Schools are not being maintained.  That is another frustration that people like Mr Lee had with this Committee.  We raise issues, we raise issues, we raise issues and things are not dealt with effectively.

Perhaps the issue that has disturbed members of the Committee more than any other, concerns the proposed building project at ~Ulundi~.  The Minister has raised that several times in his speech and Mr Mvelase has also raised that.

These proposals of additional office space and another debating chamber in ~Ulundi~ were first raised at our Portfolio Committee in November last year.  Members expressed serious concern that we were thinking of spending money on these projects, when there were more serious requirements in other departments in the Province.  We decided at that meeting to send a multi-party delegation consisting of the IFP, the ANC and the National Party to interview the Minister on that matter.

At that meeting, which also took place in November last year, the Minister gave us the assurance, that he would not move on this project until these matters had been put before our Portfolio Committee and until they had been thoroughly discussed by our Portfolio Committee.  The Minister has not yet come back to our Portfolio Committee to explain why he did not keep to this undertaking.  Perhaps the Minister could use the time at his disposal today to make reference to that.

The Committee finds it impossible to oversee the activities of this Department if vital information is being withheld from the Portfolio Committee.  Since January of this year, members have been requesting the second feasibility study relating to these buildings in ~Ulundi~, relating to the offices and relating to the debating chamber.

I say second feasibility study, because there was a first feasibility study costing R175 000 which was cancelled.  We do not know why it was cancelled.  It was cancelled but the cancelled feasibility study was given to our Committee.  I have a copy here.  The actual feasibility study according to which these buildings are going to be built has not been given to the committee.  We have repeatedly asked for months and months for a copy of the second feasibility study and to date we have no copy.  It is being withheld from us, we cannot do our job properly.

We reported this situation to the Finance Committee dealing with the budget of Public Works on 22 April.  I do not wish to report on the activities of that Committee.  The Chairperson is here and others are here, they can do it.  I want to tell you that at that Committee the Secretary of the Department of Works was instructed to furnish a copy of that second feasibility study by Thursday, 24 April.

AN HON MEMBER:  Did you give them the year?

MR A R AINSLIE:  I hope I am wrong because if I am wrong I would like someone, perhaps the Chairperson of the Committee to intervene immediately and tell me I am wrong.  To the best of my knowledge, that instruction has been ignored.  I am informed that is the case, I may be wrong, I see reactions.  Am I wrong?  That has gone to that particular Committee?  My information is that despite phone calls, despite a fax, that the second feasibility study has not gone to that Committee.  If it has I am delighted, but the fact is that our Committee which is charged with this matter still does not have a copy of that feasibility study.

These are the circumstances under which this Committee is expected to operate.  They are extremely difficult and I want to suggest that behind the public reasons given for Mr Lee's resignation, you may find more personal reasons in the area that I have now been addressing.

I am not surprised that the second feasibility study is being hidden from our Committee, because if you want to have nightmares tonight then I will give you a copy of the first feasibility study to read.  It is available.

With regard to the buildings themselves.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two more minutes.

MR A R AINSLIE:  Thank you.  With regard to the buildings themselves, the Minister is quite right, it is his business to provide us with accommodation but he must do that in a business-like way.  We cannot simply go and provide accommodation without doing an audit of existing accommodation.

I am surprised at the remarks that the Minister has made concerning Natalia.  My information is that Natalia is like a morgue.  There is so much available accommodation in Natalia.  The fact of the matter is that these things need to be investigated.  How much Government space is there in Pietermaritzburg?  How much Government space is there in ~Ulundi~?  How much commercial space, I believe there are private buildings now also being built in ~Ulundi~?  How much commercial space is there in ~Ulundi~ that we could utilise?  This side of the House, I am quite convinced, would not oppose additional offices in ~Ulundi~ as long as the need is there.  We do not see the need at the moment. 

With regard to the second debating chamber, it is simply not true that members of Parliament in ~Ulundi~ are not prepared to share that debating chamber with traditional leaders.  It simply is not the case.  It is not true.  That now is repeatedly being dragged out as an excuse.  I do not know where people get this from that MPPs are not prepared to share with traditional leaders.  That is simply not the case.  We are prepared to do so.

These are some of the issues.  There were others I would like to have raised.  My concerns about lack of affirmative action in this Department, especially when it comes to consultants.  We have got a list of several hundred consultants here.  You look in vain for any black consultancies.

The reason may be that perhaps there are not engineers and black scientists at this stage.  Then we need to go a step further and say well, the consultants we are using are they themselves applying affirmative action principles.  I think other members of our Committee and my party will raise some of these issues later in the debate.  Thank you very much, Mr Chairperson.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon member.  I am now going to call on the hon member, Ms B Barrett to address the Committee for ten minutes but I give notice that at the end of her speech I am going to ask the hon Thami Mohlomi to take over the Chair, so that after the hon member Mr Cele, I will be able to address the Chair from my seat.  I will revert back after that speech.  Thank you very much for your help.  The hon member.

MISS B BARRETT:  Mr Chairman, hon members of the House.  I would like to reiterate the deep regret expressed for Mr Hugh Lee's resignation from Parliament.  The loss of his experienced leadership of the Works Portfolio Committee will be felt by all.  I personally have great respect for his honesty and pragmatism, and believe he did much to uphold the dignity of this House.

The main focus of my debate revolves around the National Public Works programme embarked upon in KwaZulu-Natal.  This programme was established to ensure short term delivery, particularly in the rural areas where there is a lack of institutional capacity.  The object of the programme is to provide short term funding to a variety of governmental and non-governmental organisations, provided they meet criteria consistent with the objectives of the National programme.

These objectives include:

-	sustainable job creation,
-	the provision of skills training,
-	empowerment and upliftment of communities, and
-	the construction of essential infrastructure in previously disadvantaged communities.

The delivery agencies in the Province responsible for the allocation of funds for this programme included:

-	R32,2 million to the KwaZulu-Natal Department of Work's 'Community Based Public Works Programme',
-	R19 million to the Independent Development Trust or IDT, and
-	R13 million to the Sugar Industry's Siyakha project

The concern raised by the Works Portfolio Committee was whilst the lion share of the budget was given to the Department itself to spend, this was the area with the least capacity, and the only programme that had not reached its target expenditure by the cut-off date of 31 March 1997.

In summary, Siyakha had satisfied all requirements of the National Community Based Public Works Programme in respect of the 87 community projects embarked upon by this agency.  In fact their funding was exhausted at the end of 1996, and they had come to the Portfolio Committee pleading for additional funds for new projects.

Similarly, the IDT had completed their 121 projects in the Province.  In addition, the IDT was asked to take over 68 projects of the Department's Community Based Public Works Programme amounting to R5,4 million.

The success rate of the Department's Community Based Public Works Programme is another story.  The first comprehensive report received by the Portfolio Committee on the Provincial Department's programme on 25 October 1996, five months before the cut-off time, revealed that only 8% of its budget had been spent, amounting to a mere R2,7 million, with the remaining 92% of the budget to be spent by 31 March 1997.

Needless to say, alarm bells began to ring.  The report prepared for the Portfolio Committee dated 14 March 1997 indicated that R14,9 million of the R32 million budget still remained.  Thus, despite all assurances given, the cut-off date for expenditure was no longer achievable.  Fortunately, National Government has agreed to honour all committed contracts, so the work period for the Province has been extended.

This is a hard lesson to learn, not only for the Department of Works, but applicable to all service delivery departments in this Province.  It focuses on the critical need to debate whether Government is the most effective mechanism of delivery for our disadvantaged population.  There is no room in this development debate for power struggles or idealistic goals - whatever department.  It requires a clinical decision on what needs to be achieved, and whether we as Government have the capacity to achieve it.  If not, this work needs to be fielded out to the most effective body that can achieve these goals.  Our priority must remain the needs and interests of the people we serve.

Generally speaking, the Community Based Public Works Programme embarked upon in this Province is a worthy programme that needs the support of every member of this House.  And I will be the first one in the queue with a begging bowl for additional funds to continue these efforts in our rural communities.  I can only plead for an injection of realism in the Department when these funds are divided between the different agencies, governmental versus non-governmental.  It is essential that this decision is based on past performance and the institutional capacity to deliver.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, the hon member Ms Barrett.  My colleague can take over for the next two.

MR T S MOHLOMI TAKES THE CHAIR

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now wish to call upon the hon member Mr Cele to address the House for 12 minutes.

MR B H CELE:  Thank you, Mr Chairperson.  I would concur with what has been said by the members of the Portfolio Committee when they commented about the loss we endured when our hon Chairperson resigned.

Surely together we were frustrated.  I remember when we had to face the officials as this Committee and the Financial Committee, we did comment that this sometimes was a Committee of frustrations.  It does frustrate sometimes to be in that Committee.

There is a complete lack of flow of information.  You will ask, you will write, you will beg, you will do everything but responses will not come back from the officials.  It is frustrating.

I still hope that many things raised by my colleagues who have just spoken here will still be addressed, that is the relationships between this Department as a service department with other departments, especially the Department of Education.  I watched and looked with interest that again no money has been put into this Department as a service department.  Again one might face the same situation that we have always faced.

It was also noted by the Minister in his speech on page 12 that:

	Without being more specific at this moment, I am happy to say that the principle of affirmative action is applied in my Department.

I would have loved the Minister to be specific on that one.  It is an area I would like to hear specific things being spelt out on that one because we strongly believe, some of us, that that is not the case and it should be addressed.

There is this question of building at the City of ~Ulundi~, to be verbatim, that is the latest expression the City of ~Ulundi~, about the building of those millions there.  It looks like the premise is that this Legislature has a problem of sharing the chambers that are there.  This matter arose because at a certain given point there was some form of invasion of that chamber, and the Committee was told to look at the practical separation of the Legislature and the Executive.  That Committee was chaired by the Speaker of Parliament.  He was also serving in that.

That Committee never finished its work and came back to report.  So I do not know where the story comes from that that was a recommendation because that Committee still has outstanding work and has to come back and report in this Parliament.  That is what one understands about the Committee, it was supposed to come back and it has not come back to report.

To say then that this Legislature has opposed the usage and sharing of that Legislature, I do not think is correct because we are still looking forward to receive the report back from that Committee.

AN HON MEMBER:  INTERJECTION!

MR B H CELE:  It is definitely not the change, one is trying to be factual.  Again this Committee now and again comes close, when it deals with the matters of the King, you will find that that is where many things are debated about this money, about that money, about the money that is supposed to do that or that.

Sometimes you sit here and get embarrassed because we are sometimes not allowed to debate these monies and one would be told that we cannot begin to debate, it is not the question of protocol or is it unprotocol if there is such a term, to debate the matters of the King.  I do not believe that is very correct.

All the matters need to be debated but with respect.  I agree with that, but at no stage is there any department or anybody who are not accountable to this Parliament concerning the usage of the taxpayer's money.  Nobody is above that accountability.  Sometimes the misrepresentation then is done as the Secretary of Department, Mr Ngwenya.  He said one day that a King must get everything and he can get everything that he wants and in any form that he wants.  That is not the way.  That is a clear misrepresentation as if the King has no accountability.  He does have accountability.  So when the officials begin to misrepresent it sounds as if it is the King that is unaccountable which is not the fact.  We need to put that record straight.

I would definitely support what has been said by the hon member Ms Barrett, that we definitely need to boost those NGOs that have used the money in a proper manner, have come back to account and we can begin to see the impact on the ground.  We definitely need to fight to allocate more funds, especially to those that are working in the rural areas, and those who are trying to improve the lives of our people that have been forgotten all the years.

With reference to what the Minister has said, this question of projects and violence.  Sometimes it is vice versa.  Yes, I agree that there are projects that have been stopped because there is violence in the Province, but I also want to believe that there are communities that have begun to live in harmony because there are projects there.  They have got something to do, they are employed and they are part of the consultation, they are part of that project, going forward so they guard that kind of project jealously.

The Department will have to understand that when it implements these projects it will have to consult the communities, rather than from top-down, it should be a bottom-up kind of approach.  There are those problems that the communities find themselves with some form of manna and sometimes they are not very sure if that manna will still come.  So they would love to be part of decisions.  If you take these communities on board it does help.  There are communities that are part of the projects and it has helped so much.

I do not want to be too long, but I want to speak to my Acting Chairperson there who was speaking as a Chair, definitely in the beginning he did, but at the end he did not tell us that he was now speaking for himself or as a party when he spoke about the schools.  He should have kept those two separated.  You still have another time to speak then you can attack, but now you are speaking as a Chair and we expected you to be such.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, Mr Cele.  I wish now to call upon the hon member Mr Haygarth to address the House for nine minutes.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman.  Mr Chairman, I also would like to talk briefly about Community Based Projects and two very good points have been made.  I want to emphasise that.

The first thing is that the Community Based Projects bring a tremendous amount of money into a community which helps them in their daily lives.  It is important that when you begin to introduce Community Based Projects into an area that you keep them.  Otherwise the people suddenly have got money for a period of time and the next thing they are unemployed and they are starving.

That sort of thing is a very delicate operation.  I can say that formally the Joint Services Board, for example, the Valley Trust and also at Groutville much money was put into communities who responded to the desire to spend money on projects which were useful to their community.  The Valley Trust in particular not only spent the money, but provided training for the people in a variety of forms to enhance their ability to undertake or to continue to undertake works of that nature.  So I support this very important process of money continuously being put into these areas to keep those communities moving forward.

The second part of the Minister's speech which I find interesting, is the process which he is adopting to obtain staff for the future.  He referred to it as a medium term policy because of the time involved, and to grow your own timber is one of the few ways in which you can continue to service and have people available to undertake the work of your Department.

I think the important thing in that is to ensure that the end of their educational bursary or loan, whatever it might be, that those people are committed to serve the Department for a minimum period without being able to escape that obligation.  Certainly not without refunding a substantial sum of money because unless you do, people will use the opportunities of bursaries or loans to get an education and then take their skills elsewhere where perhaps it might be more remunerative.

The next thing I wanted to deal with was the question of the difficulties that the Minister referred to with the PSC.  We have heard of that on a number of occasions.  There are two issues involved.  One is the approval of posts, and I noted that the Minister was talking about improving the number of posts, professional posts in his regions in order to deal with the increasing workload of the Department as he saw it.

One of the great things you need to be careful of is that the departments will always come forward with new posts and they will tell you how much they need them.  We have had that experience in all the public services and that continues to apply.  You have to be very careful particularly in a department where the available funding is uncertain.  You cannot begin to staff the Department on the basis of funding which may be in existence at the moment, when in fact there can continue to be substantial reductions in the amount of funds available for capital works.

The fact that you have staff available, the Minister's report, he then goes on to deal with maintenance.  He talked about the maintenance reduction and the fact that the Department only had R114 million for routine maintenance.  Later on in the report he said the Department had a capability of spending a R150 million.

I take that to mean that within the Department, with its existing establishment, there are people available who could do maintenance.  For what purpose are they currently being used because they have only got R114 million?  This is the danger that happens when you have a fixed establishment and a variable amount of funding required.  The same applies in respect of the Minister of Transport in respect of roadworks.  The situation used to exist there, there was insufficient money to put fuel into the tractors and other equipment.  What did the men who drove or operated that equipment do?  They were being paid but they were not producing that sort of thing.  I think this is a very important issue of how you go about getting staff and the justification of that.  It needs to be properly established that there is a reasonable need for that.

The question was then raised by the Minister on this vexed question of forward estimates for capital projects.  I have some sympathy with him there because one of the most difficult things to do is to organise a programme of physical work in relation to the finance available, when that finance for the second and third year is technically an unknown quantity.  It is a very difficult thing and it impacts on the economy and efficiency of the Department.

Lastly, I want to raise the point of the staff that he talked about raising, and whether there is not a need to accept as the Government and other public services have had to do.  For example, in the approval of structural works.  Once a upon a time that had to be certified by a public officer.  Today you will find that the building by-laws or the in-structural by-laws have been amended to provide an onus upon the architect, consulting engineer, structural engineer, whatever it be, who has to certify that that work complies with the standards necessary for public safety and for rationalisation and completion of the contract.  You are having the same with the conveyancers and the survey people, having to certify their work to take the responsibility in respect of the professional aspects of those works.

One has to say should the same not apply to the consultants who are employed by the Department to take their work through to a final conclusion, where they are required to certify that.  The Department then merely has an overriding look at the work so that you do not have to expand or to continue to expand the Department in relation to the acquisition of additional professional staff?

I ask that the Minister take a careful look at anything that he decides to put forward to the Provincial Service Commission, to ensure that it is properly justified, so that he will not have the trouble that another Minister had when he also wanted to have a substantial additional number of posts to undertake the work which he believed to be his function.

I think you must expect that the Provincial Service Commission is entitled, in my view, to ask penetrating questions as to the real need for staff.  If they do not, departments are at large to add on whatever number of posts they feel is necessary.  That means money, it means money that has to come from the taxpayer and it takes it away from other more important works or departmental undertakings that are necessary.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  One minute left.

MR G HAYGARTH:  Mr Chairman, thank you for that.  I will stop at that point.  Thank you very much.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much.  While Mr Haygarth comes to resume the Chair, I will call upon the hon member Mr Burrows to address the House for seven minutes.

MR G HAYGARTH TAKES THE CHAIR  

THE CHAIRPERSON: The hon member Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Chair.  I too would like to echo the compliments paid by other members of the Works Portfolio Committee to the Chairperson, Mr Hugh Lee, who has resigned from the Legislature.  I think he always acted in the best interest of parliamentary tradition, of being willing to speak out on behalf of all members of his Committee.  For that he has been, we know, criticised within his own party.  I am sure that members on the Portfolio Committee of all parties would defend Mr Hugh Lee, and the actions he carried out at the request of the Portfolio Committee.  Being a Chairperson of a Portfolio Committee is an onerous responsibility and calls upon one to act in the best interests of all rather than of one segment of the Committee.

I have got some significant problems with the Department of Works and the way it spends its money.  It is probably one of the failings of an agency department in that it will simply turn around and say, "It is not our problem, it is the client's problem".  The hon Mr Ainslie has referred to this again and again.  Let me just refer to a couple of these that have been referred to already.

The question of the relationship between the Department of Works and the Department of Education goes back, I am told, some ten years.  Dr Mtalane, I am sure will be able to speak on that even more, of what happened prior to 1994 because she, I am sure, has expert knowledge on the subject.  The relationship between the departments where Ministers from the same party, sit in the same Cabinet has not improved.

We have correspondence that was tabled to the Finance Portfolio Committee which in essence ends up, the last correspondence is a letter dated 26 March of this year, acknowledged by the Secretary of this Department on 4 April this year to Dr Shabalala, the acting Superintendent General of Education and Culture saying:

	I request you to transfer the budget for the payment of the salaries of the maintenance staff to Works.

I do not know if it has happened.  We have very great difficulty in establishing what actually happens between these two departments.

The other thing I would highlight is that we need to set clearly the division between Education and Works, and what each is doing.  I must say, personally and from the Democratic Party's point of view, we would be perfectly happy with the situation where the Department of Works is involved in major capital works, new buildings for education and Education itself does refurbishment, does maintenance and does emergency repairs.  That happened in the past for quite a number of the provincial departments and their works, and it worked extremely well.  I do not know why it is not happening now.  It appears that Works wants to hang on to all maintenance functions.

I need to establish whether the question that we examined at the Finance Portfolio Committee about the instruction from the Secretary of Works to the Works component, to immediately stop all repairs and renovations to schools has in fact been countermanded.  Certainly, it was a matter that was going to be taken up with the Premier immediately.  We need explanations and we need this matter to be resolved.  I have had quite enough of it.

Turn to ~Ulundi~ and the buildings.  Office requirements.  Sure, I would love to see a feasibility study to find out whether the admin buildings in ~Ulundi~ are satisfactory for a public service that is supposed to be reducing in size, not increasing.  That is the purpose of what we are trying to do in the whole budgetary process, is cut back on the number of public servants not increase the number.

Here is an advert, I referred to it in the Finance Portfolio Committee.

	Fairbreeze Office Park ~Ulundi~.  Space to let or for sale on sectional title in multiples of 125 square metres.  Secure new quality office park within 200 metres of the Holiday Inn in the CBD.

Presumably the Department of Works would have known about that, and presumably the Minister would have known about that when he made his speech about the three cities.  I hope he did.  But there is space in ~Ulundi~.  It is available.  Rent it in November.  Do not build any more buildings.

The question of sharing facilities.  We have been through it before.  We have said, and members of Parliament have said, we are happy to have one parliamentary office in one centre, and share somewhere else if necessary.  I quote from minutes of a meeting, and this is in the feasibility study document, chaired by the Secretary of Works, Mr Ngwenya, in which Mr Ngwenya says the following:

	Mr Ngwenya confirmed that accommodation is to be provided for all elected MPPs, plus/minus 100, in the Legislative building.

So he is saying something that we ourselves are not saying.  That is what I do not understand.  The same minutes talk about exploring alternative sitings of a chamber for the House of Traditional Leaders.

It was agreed that the Legislative accommodation and that intended for the House of Traditional Leaders cannot be shared.  Who made this decision?  Mr Ngwenya, Dr Arbuckle, Mr Blaauw or Mr Curry.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one more minute.

MR R M BURROWS:  That is what I do not understand, because the House has not been involved in this.  You want a building to take 600 people.  You want a building where great gatherings can take place two or three times a year.  You have a chamber that can seat 750 people in which we meet for 20 days out of 365, and you say you cannot share it.  I will tell you, if you want to put toilets into schools you have got to stop that kind of wastage.

Let me talk about Maritzburg.  Why are we thinking about buying more buildings when there is a Colonial Building in Church Street with hundreds of offices that could be occupied by administration staff?  It is deteriorating.  I invite all members to walk across to Church Street and go into the Colonial Building.  Pigeon droppings, water seepage, it is not being looked after.  Save money.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you, Chair.  We need ourselves to be very careful about how we spend the public's money.  It is not our money.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Before I call on Mr Rajbansi, can I just say there is a car NU 100367 which is blocking the egress to the parking area.  There are members at the moment who have to leave.  Would that owner of the car please remove his car from the exit.  Thank you.  I now call on the hon member Mr A Rajbansi to address the Committee for four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  You know, the Parliamentary Board has had lots of discussion about improving the image of our Province.  Mistakes are understandable, human errors can be forgiven, but I want to say to the Government, how do you defend school children having no water, school children having no toilets?  I know that there is a rule that if there is a stoppage of water supply, even for one hour, your school is closed.

The pathetic story is that when African children see freedom they do not get the real fruits of freedom.  Then they read in the printed media, and they hear on the radio that we are spending R33 million on one school.  We are spending money on projects that do not occupy the priority it deserves.  Let us get one message clear to every Government administrator, that money shall be allocated where the need exists the greatest.

Besides the Portfolio Committee meeting the Minister, the Parliamentary Board, on hearing about the planning of certain projects, had a discussion with the Minister.  I was present at the meeting at the Parliamentary Executive Board when we were given the assurance that nothing will continue without consultation.

As far as the offices in ~Ulundi~ are concerned, there might be limited justification, there might be a need for a scaled down project, but just because one or two members queried the presence of members of the House of Traditional Leaders in our chamber, not our Legislature itself, somebody decided that that was offensive and he must plan another debating chamber.

I want to say to the Government, especially to the Inkatha Freedom Party, that these type of headlines do tremendous damage to our Government.  Before such decisions are taken let it be taken properly at political level.

I want to say to the hon Minister and to the Department of Public Works, let us ensure that we have emerging entrepreneurs being given right jobs in the Department of Public Works.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one more minute.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Right.  Let us promote honestly and truthfully SMMEs.  I want to suggest to the hon Minister to go and have a discussion with the planners of the erstwhile House of Delegates.  Our delivery in the Works component there was A1 in South Africa.  Those officials are available, but they have been sidelined in the restructuring and the replanning of the Department.

We cannot tolerate one centimetre of negative publicity again.  Let this be the end.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you, the hon member.  I note that the hon member Mr J Mkhwanazi is not present.  I will now therefore call on the hon member Mr Y S Bhamjee to address for 12 minutes.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Chair, colleagues.  We welcome the Minister's input and we also wish to express our concern that the Chairperson, Mr Lee, left so suddenly.  I think all of us would agree that he kept the Portfolio going even though at times Mr Burrows was flirting between the Finance Committee and the Public Works Committee, he found it most interesting.

AN HON MEMBER:  Flirting is probably the wrong word.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  Mr Chairperson, we have got to make it very, very clear that the Public Works is probably one of the most important departments.  During the 1948 period when the National Party came to power it used the Public Works sector to try and address the plight of the poor white population in this country.  It improved their general quality of life.

We need to take a leaf from history, and to recognise that the potential that the Public Works has to address the plight of the poorest of the poor is tremendous.  The National Minister on Public Works has indicated on the 13th:

	We have restructured the core functions of Public Works into three strategic areas, focusing on property development, property management and support services.  Underlying these strategic areas is the approach embodied in the National Public Works programme, particularly its emphasis on labour intensive methods in order for employment creation, skills provision and community participation objectives to be realised.

One of the glaring weaknesses of the Minister's presentation is the fact that he continuously emphasises that the Department of Works is a service department.  We believe that the Department of Works has the potential to transform and create job opportunities, and thereby improve the general quality of life.

If one looks at the Green Paper, one will find that there are abundant opportunities in developing a vision.  So we need to have a vision.  We do not have a vision therefore in our Portfolio Committees and when we are sitting here we are debating about issues, about our weakness etcetera.  The weaknesses must be located within a plan and that plan is clearly the Green Paper, and I quote:

	To fulfil its mandate, South Africa must outperform all conventional projections, whilst also realising targets for improved life expectancy, literacy and numeracy, safety and security.  The challenge facing Government is to identify innovative measures that can generate higher levels of growth and much higher levels of employment and equity.  Public Works will play a major role in this, not only through employment creation but through managing public assets that major investments in economic infrastructure, electrification, telecommunication and information technology.

	Having emerged from one of the world's most brutal and unjust economic and political systems, South Africa's democratic Government has committed itself to overcoming poverty and improving the quality of life of the majority through a sustainable, co-ordinated and integrated development programme.  The new Government inherited enormous inequalities in wealth and income based on race, gender, age, disability, urban or rural location.

If this Province is to achieve its development goals we would need to go forward on the premise that development should be firstly and most importantly about the empowerment of the poorest of the poor, who form the majority of our people.  This Government, if it is to create a better life for all, must commit itself to this.  Experience in other countries has shown that if the focus of development initiatives is not primarily on the upliftment of the poor, poverty and the conditions under which the poor live, worsens.

Change in this Province, will need to be accompanied by improvement in the structural conditions in which people live, through a partnership between the people, as beneficiaries of change, and the Government, in order to be sustainable.

The dialectic leap which needs to be made is that which shifts the paradigm of Public Works from being the builder and custodian of State property, to it taking a lead role in the process of relieving the vast majority of people of the horrific conditions under which they live.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  The conditions in our Province have been created by centuries of deliberate policy, much of which is now cliche.  Reversing it, it is going to need equal if not substantially and greater effort through strong political leadership.  It is not going to be without controversy, but of course leadership cannot shy away from the responsibility of having to make decisions, controversial or otherwise, if those decisions are in the interests of the people who they serve.

I once again quote the Green Paper:

	The Public Works Department is in a position to make specific contributions to overall Government objectives, in large part by including socio-economic factors in cost-benefit analyses related to departmental operations for the first time.  These factors include job creation, Human Resource Development, support for SMMEs, new production regimes that stress labour-intensity for workers and community participation and control for beneficiaries, promotion of employment equity and affirmative action, environmental protection, energy conservation and increased (appropriate) public access to South Africa's natural and built heritage.

The responsibility of Government is clear.  Creation of jobs where people live, accessible health care, education, water and sanitation are priorities.  An integrated approach to development is needed, with affected communities as the main roleplayers.

Sustainable programmes can be achieved by taking a broader view, for example, the building of community access roads cannot itself create sustainable jobs within communities.  Building of roads, houses, schools, creches, health care facilities, police stations and community facilities, does not offer a better potential to create sustainable jobs.  Much of this falls outside the ambit of Public Works.  However, item 1.2.4 of the Public Works' Green Paper, talks of good relationships with the various departments.  I am suggesting that in this Province, we achieve that and take it further.

In saying this, cognisance is taken of the fact that Public Works does not have access to inexhaustible funds.  However, well planned and co-ordinated efforts will go a long way to resolving this and other anomalies.  Financial gearing and leverage, linking into other public and private sector initiatives will enable us to begin to move towards achieving the development goals of this Province.  The Premier's Capacity Building Fund, Department of Trade and Industries, SMME development and support programmes, DBSAs development finance programmes are some examples of sources of funding which if properly approached, will enable the transformation that we seek.

We cannot lead this Province into the 21st Century without having achieved significant development.  We cannot applaud ourselves for relatively minor achievements, when for much of the Province the status remains or worsens.  We cannot use the traditional excuses for failure to deliver.  Clear development goals have to be set and plans formulated to achieve these.  The capacity exists, the will of the people and the State exists, delivery must begin.  I again quote the Green Paper:

	With regard to the Constitution, implementation is to be carried out by the lowest level of Government which is competent to do so.  The Public Works Department therefore will play a facilitative role to build the capacity of the lower tiers of Government.

In taking the cue from the National Public Works, this Province must rapidly create the environment, institutions and organs for delivery.  The Provincial Department of Finance's will to reforming the Provincial Tender Act, is a step in that direction.  KwaZulu-Natal Public Works of all the departments is one which has the potential to lead the process of delivery and change.  The time has come for it to do precisely that.

This submission is based, Mr Chair, on the view that the "Green Paper on Public Works" is one of the finest examples of proper and progressive policy to emerge in the history of our country.  KwaZulu-Natal needs to accept it and to do it and implement as much as we can while we can.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon member.  I now call on the hon member Dr L J T Mtalane to address the Committee for ten minutes.

DR L J T MTALANE:  Mr Chairman and the hon members.  The Department of Works has a tremendous and responsible task to perform in this Province.  Capital works uses a significant percentage of the Provincial budget.  Capital works in the form of buildings at various institutions gives an image of this Provincial Government.

There are institutions that one never visits but have their visual images from a distance.  Those that have been visited create a positive or a negative image in one's mind, according to their state of maintenance.

The Department of Works and the Department of Health have ever since the inception of this Provincial Government maintained good working relationships.  I do not want to dwell on the negative past because I believe positive thinking is very constructive.

Their concerted effort of transferring the appropriate amount of the budget from Health to Works, after all the business plans have been completed and at the time of commencing the project agreed upon is indeed appreciated.  This proves that the Department of Works is willing and capable of working harmoniously with other departments.  It does need to have a positive approach.  It indicates the level of responsibility of both these department's officials.  We applaud them for that.

I wish to point out that because these department officials work together harmoniously, the Portfolio Committee on Health does not find itself having to intervene now and again unnecessarily with the Department of Works.

The Department of Works, on advice of the Works Portfolio Committee, is compiling the Provincial Government's assets register.  This is an extensive exercise and cannot be finished in a few months.  One is just hopeful it shall be completed in a reasonable time because they are applying themselves diligently and in fulfilling this function.

It is regretted that at times some members of the Portfolio Committee on Works find abnormal pleasure in passing onto the press unfounded facts about what the Department of Works intends doing.  Some of these unfounded facts have been unpleasant and provocative.  They even dragged the status of His Majesty the King of the whole of KwaZulu-Natal, and I repeat His Majesty the King of the whole of KwaZulu-Natal.  That cannot be tolerated by the loyal subjects of the King.

Other aspects of this Department are Community Based Projects.  These directly involve the communities at grass-root levels.  The community involvement is unique in empowering all levels of the community in knowledge and skills.  It makes the community self-sufficient to possess self-development facilities, and they attach value to whatever they have built for themselves.  That is what we need to build our South African nation.

Whilst one applauds the good work of community projects, one would like to point out the need for control of public funds allocated for those community projects.  The Department must ensure that projects do exist, and not ghost projects.

It is vitally important that political leaders at National, Provincial and Local Government levels, link or liaise at the various constituencies in developing their communities.  This will prevent the unnecessary duplication and friction.  In fact they should bear in mind that funds used for community development comes from one source, namely the National budget.  After all, they are one.  Simunye, we are one.

The budget is supported.  I also wish to add my voice to thank Mr Lee for his contribution to this Portfolio Committee.  Thank you, Mr Chairman and the hon House.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon member Dr Mtalane.  I now call on the hon member Mrs J M Downs to address the Committee for four minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Chairman, I am most perturbed when I look at the figures contained in the hon Minister's budget speech.  I look at the estimated costs of education of R178 million plus/minus and the expected expenditure of about R59 million plus/minus, and I see that there is only a roll over of about R14,5 million and transfers of R44,5 million.  It does not take a mathematical genius to realise that there is a horrible shortfall.

I am told that this is the responsibility of the Education Department.  When I look at the Education Department's budget there is not any money that has been allocated for capital projects, nothing.  We have been told and told again that there is no allocation for the building of new classrooms, nothing.

I would like to know where this money is going to come from.  Are we to assume that we are going to have an overextended budget?  I sincerely hope not.  Our Finance Minister has given his authoritative stamp and his assurance that we will take budgeting seriously and that we will stick to our budgets.  That is my first concern.

My second concern is the question of the buildings in ~Ulundi~.  Let me raise my voice along with all my colleagues that have spoken before me in speaking about this thing.

When you have got an estimated end cost of R226 million for a debating chamber and office blocks, something is wrong.  We have got schools, as the hon member Mr Rajbansi said before me, with no toilets, when we have got such enormous poverty in our Province, when we have so many needs, to build ourselves extravagant offices is not on.  It really is not on.

I would go along with the Finance Committee's recommendation, if I can see a needs analysis which says that we need to have some office accommodation, but I can tell you right now that anything over and above the Finance Committee's recommendation will definitely not have my or my party's support.

The third issue that I want to raise is, that I went and collected some tender documents for tenders which were going to be carried out by the Department of Works.  We have been assured in this House time and time again that the small, medium and micro enterprises will be given opportunities and things that they never had before, to tender for these programmes and to enjoy the fruits of them.

Well, when I picked up those tender documents the conditions of tender I want to tell you, speaking as the wife of a small contractor, makes it impossible for small contractors to actually do those tenders.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has one more minute.

MRS J M DOWNS:  The conditions of bank guarantees, and the constraints that are put on the tenders, really and truly make it impossible for small businesses to tender for that work.

I have got a problem with that.  It is the stated policy of this Government that these businesses will be given the opportunity to render their services to the Government.  I am not saying that they should be rendered by people who do not have the capability and there must be checks and balances, but I really believe that this Department must look very seriously at the way that it puts out its tender documents.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, the hon member Mrs Downs.  I now call on the hon member Mr S V Naicker to address the Committee for nine minutes.

MR S V NAICKER:  Mr Chairman, this is indeed a very, very difficult debate.  Difficult in this respect, you can see confrontation and you can see conflicts.  Over and above underpinning this entire debate and underpinning the responsibilities of this Department, it is directed to the improving of the quality of life of our people.  That is the bottom line.

Before I go any further, I also want to add my own appreciation to our former Chairman of the Works Portfolio Committee, Mr Hugh Lee.  I fully agree with the hon Ms Barrett, the sentiment that she expressed.  She was on the Committee with Mr Lee and also the sentiment of the hon Mr Roger Burrows and other members.

It is sad, indeed, that when an individual who had just got to grips with the implication of a department had to depart.  Now we have to start all over again.  Not that this Legislature does not have competent men and women, but the importance of this Department is such.

I want to quote the hon Minister's statement that we picked up here the other day, perhaps to get a mind set of our responsibilities.  He says here:

	Ever since the new Government of National Unity took over power there is far too little that has been achieved concerning promises made to different communities of this country prior to election.  Mention was made that the poorest of the poor would receive first preference in as far as the improving of their life is concerned.

It was the statement of the Minister.  He went further, with respect, of course this is borne out of concern again, he says:

	If one thinks about the most precious entity which is the taxpayer's money, one always remembers when blacks started paying.  In this country the first tax was paid for housing in 1885, followed by poll tax in 1904 which gave rise to the conflict and protest of this poll tax in 1906, called the Bambatha rebellion.

The point I am trying to make is yes, we are functioning here at the expense of the taxpayer.  If you take history into account, the hon Minister brought history before us to say the source of funding to keep this mechanism in motion.

As I mentioned, I am indeed pained here this morning to stand before this Legislature, and take up a point which I made in the last debate, a year ago, which was mentioned by the hon Mr Rajbansi.

What are we trying to prove?  With the best intention, the documentation that we have before us, the best reports and the best theoretical debates, and I want every hon member in this House to please take cognisance of the simple statistic that I want to give, pertaining to the poorest of the poor or perhaps, as the hon Mr Rajbansi says, where the need exists.

I had a question sent to the Department, how many schools within the Province of KwaZulu-Natal are still without drinking water?  How many boreholes have been established in such schools since April 1994?  I had asked these questions because in previous instances when the need arose, departments forged ahead and provided boreholes, particularly educational institutions.  But this is the reply:

	According to our knowledge, there are 4 767 schools in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal of which an estimated 85% or 90% are without water.  The Department of Education and Culture is busy with a survey that will enable them to identify the requirements at schools and which will enable them to determine the priorities according to needs.  The Department of Works has supplied 121 schools with boreholes in the Ladysmith region and the Joint Services Board has supplied a further 27 schools.  In other regions, the Department of Education and Culture is doing their own maintenance and no additional boreholes have been drilled at schools.

Here again we have a conflict situation between departments.  The innocent child or perhaps the innocent community is not sure to be able to have water to quench his or her thirst.  Yet we sit in this Legislature and how do we go about reconciling such circumstances with our conscience.

Furthermore, I believe that the Department of Education has a report forthcoming shortly from the Education Foundation about the detail and conditions at schools.  This report should then be able to answer questions exactly.  The information of that is not exact from all the regions and can be summarised as follows.  Total schools in Pietermaritzburg, 987.  Number without water 501.  There are more details here.

	According to our information there are 4 767 schools in KwaZulu-Natal and Mr Dladla from the Department of Education and Culture estimates that 90% of these are without water.  We are not doing maintenance at these schools and as such the Department does not always have an intimate knowledge of the schools.

The question is, who is supposed to have that required intimate knowledge of the requirements?  Do we have to come here periodically year after year?  One would have expected progress from the clarion call that was made in this Legislature a year ago.

One of the most interesting characteristics of this year's debate, I know there is no party politicking, this whole entire debate of every department ...

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two more minutes.

MR S V NAICKER:  ..... has centred around the absolute necessity of the needs of people.  The Department of Works is mainly, I might say, a service department for client departments.  However, in the budget a specific pre-negotiated allocation is made to the Department of Works with an indication of allocations for specific capital for various departments.

The Department has a duty to oversee the provision of capital works to its clients in the most efficient and cost effective way, and in terms of the legal regulation and requirements in respect of tenders.

In respect of tenders, the Portfolio Committee had a special Committee established.  The Committee, a very capable Committee, came up with excellent recommendations as far as State procurement policies and analysis of current policy tendered by centres, review procurement procedures for contracts less than R7 500, waiver of securities, early payment cycles.  All this work was carried out by the Portfolio Committee with the hon Mr Roy Ainslie.  We are not certain as to where these documents are at the moment and what effect it may have had.

All this again revolves around the empowerment of people.  If such mechanisms are not in place, then the rule books are thrown, so much so to the detriment of those very people who we want to empower.

Finally, Mr Chairman, I want to reiterate my plea to the hon Minister and the Department.  Let us not carry the sins on our shoulders.  Let us remove the sins off our shoulders by providing water for those thousands and thousands of our innocent people across KwaZulu-Natal.  That is my final plea.  It is my prayer that we come back to the next session and be told that this is the progress.  This is the progress with regard to the provision of the basic needs such as drinking water.  Thank you, sir.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon member Mr Naicker.  I now call on the hon member Mr M V Ngema to address the Committee for ten minutes.

MR M V NGEMA:  Thank you very much, Mr Chairman and hon members.


TRANSLATION:  Today's debate on this vote.  There is a saying in Zulu that says, "A landlord's wind gets wiped on a scapegoat".  This saying means that if an important person takes a decision and then after some time he realises the truth that that decision that he has taken was the wrong decision, he then looks from amongst his underlings for a scapegoat to blame for what has gone wrong so that it cannot be said that he has made a mistake.

Another saying says, "The home of an orator leaks".  The reason that the home of the orator leaks is because the orator is always paying attention to what he is going to say and how he is going to use words in order to say what he wants to say.  He does not pay any attention to the fact that some of the things that he waxes lyrical about are problems which he himself faces or will face.

So if there is talk at a certain place complaining about houses that leak, the orator knows them all and tells all of them that they are leaking, because his job is to go to all the houses and enter all the houses and look to see which one of them leaks.  At the same time, the orator's house has no one caring for it and seeing that it also leaks.

The morning, Mr Chairman, Father I C Meer spoke, I am sad that I am speaking when he is not here, where he spoke about the chameleon.  I want to say that in our community the usual thing when it comes to thinking about the chameleon is that we think about that fairy tale that says we are suffering because of the chameleon.

So whenever we think about the chameleon, we think about the negative aspects of it, and even when the chameleon is brave enough to take into account the reality of the situation that it finds itself in and then to change colour to blend in with the reality of its surroundings, then we get angry and we do not realise that this is a positive attribute on the part of the chameleon.  T/E

I am saying this morning, the hon Dr Luthuli was brave enough this morning to cry out about the effects of the policies of her party when it comes to depriving our communities and the public of South Africa, of the services of the best of our teachers.

I am saying hallah-hallah.  If she was not being as realistic as the chameleon would be, I do not know what she was doing.  She was acknowledging the problems that the party, whether she belongs to it or not, did as is composed of human beings.  In the words of the hon Mr Rajbansi this morning, that human beings are prone to making mistakes, parties are made up of human beings and therefore they can make mistakes.  The only difference is what you do when you have discovered that you have made a mistake.

AN HON MEMBER:  Severance packages.

MR M V NGEMA:  Mr Chairman, I thank you for this opportunity to address this House on one of the key departments in ensuring service delivery to the people of KwaZulu-Natal.  I also wish to add my own personal comment and tribute to our former colleague and Chairperson of this Portfolio Committee, Mr Lee.  I do so in my capacity as a member of that Portfolio Committee.  I also take this opportunity to do so as the current Chairperson of the IFP caucus in the Province.  We are proud of Mr Lee's commitment and dedicated service to the people of KwaZulu-Natal, and his party in particular, if I may say so.

Secondly, I wish to thank this House for the opportunity it availed me to represent it at the debate of this similar vote at the NCOP on Tuesday, 13 May this year.  I hope this House did not expect me to do more than my best.  I wish to report that I did my best.

Unfortunately, I had to leave the debate because of flight arrangements and therefore did not wait to hear what the response of the Minister was in this regard.  On the whole the debate was useful.

Thirdly, I wish to congratulate the Minister, the Reverend Mtetwa, as Minister of the Department of Works.  We thank the Minister for having emphasised the character of the Department as a service delivery, not only serving other departments but serving the needs of the people of KwaZulu-Natal, particularly the poorest of the poor as the development character of this Department demands.  In this respect, co-ordination should take place among all departments with aspects in their activities impacting on community development.

Dr Mtalane has referred to the importance of capital works as demonstrated by the Ministries of Works and Health.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two more minutes.

MR M V NGEMA:  We can only applaud that co-operation and hope and wish that it moves further and affects the relationship between the Ministry of Works and the Ministry of Education and Culture, and have relations in that respect improving as has been referred to by many members.

In line with the Zulu idioms I began my speech with, I wish to commend on the following.  The ~~Ulundi~~ buildings, so ~Baba~ [Mr Chairman, I say a landlord's wind gets wiped on the scapegoat for this reason.  [LAUGHTER]  I say here, Mr Chairman,] the meeting which led to the uproar and reminded members of Parliament about the sanctity of Parliament, was the meeting which was held at Mnyamana Buthelezi Conference Room.  Now granted, that was part of the parliamentary structure but it was not the chamber itself, as the hon Mr Cele said.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member's time has expired.

MR M V NGEMA:  The excitement of members caused members to react to this and make certain recommendations, which led to the Committee.  That was the source of that decision which led to the allocation of funds, as we see today.  Thank you.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I now call on the hon member Mr V C Xaba to address the Committee for 12 minutes.

MR V C XABA:  Mr Chairman, when we identify weaknesses inherent to a particular department, we do not do so with an intention of malice, we do so with an intention of helping that particular Minister and his or her Department.  Therefore it should not be taken as an attack by party colleagues of that particular Minister.  Therefore there is no need for members seated on the opposite benches to be defensive.

The hon member Mr Tarr, the Chief Whip of the largest party, at the beginning of this session, raised a concern regarding a question whether what we say in this House ever finds expression in the action programmes of various departments.  I want to say that I express the same concern today.

The Minister of Public Works correctly pointed out in his budget speech that, I quote:

	The Department of Works, as a service department, is dependent on the co-operation of four major role-players being the client departments, Treasury, Works and private sector etcetera for inputs for services needed.

I cannot agree more with the Minister.

The prolonged disagreement between the Department of Works and the Department of Education, with regard to the responsibility of the day to day maintenance of buildings under the custody of the Department of Education, leaves much to be desired.  It raises more questions than answers and consequently creates an unnecessary confusion.

Repeated attempts, you have heard it in this House, Mr Chairman, by the Portfolio Committees of Public Works and Education, to get this problem sorted out have not borne the desired results.  Towards the end of last year it was still not clear as to who was responsible for the maintenance of schools.  I note the situation with sadness.

If the Department of Education and Culture continues with their own maintenance, surely duplication of personnel functions, equipment, infrastructure etcetera cannot be avoided.  Can the Provincial Administration really afford this situation financially?  I leave that question to the responsible officials.  Can we not apply cost saving measures where we can?  This is one of the areas in which cost savings can occur.

Let me address myself to personnel.  That point was touched on by other members who spoke before me.  The uncertainty with regards to non-transfer of staff still being paid by the Department of Education, although it is in the establishment of the Department of Works, is unacceptable.

Several speakers have referred to this issue and I do not intend to dwell on it, except to say that the two responsible Ministers should seriously address this and expedite it.

I now want to address myself to the building of schools.  Points have been made with regard to this question.  The hon member Mr Burrows, the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee of Education, raised his concern about this question.  The hon member Mr Naicker also raised his concern about this question, particularly with regard to shortage of accommodation and the lack of supply of water to some of our schools.  These are issues that we need to address if we want to be number one Province.

Consideration should be given to the creation of norms and standards of accommodation and buildings, failing which historical inequities cannot be redressed.  It is unacceptable to have two schools, both secondary schools, located in the same area but with wide estimated final cost gaps, leading to one school requiring a capital expenditure of about R4 million and another school across the road requiring a capital expenditure of R9 million.  I do not think that is acceptable.

The Department must be alerted.  For instance, that if you build an extravagantly expensive school, a few years down the line you will bear exorbitant maintenance costs.  This is the case in the former House of Representatives.  Perhaps it is a lesson that we need to learn in this House, so that we move with speed to create norms and standards of accommodation.  I know that it is a function of the Department of Education, but in collaboration with the Department of Public Works.  We need to build more classrooms, to put up toilets and bring clean water to learners and teachers.

In conclusion, I want to repeat what has been said in this House, that we need to be careful on how we spend public funds.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, the hon member Mr Xaba.  I now call on the hon member Mr M B Gwala to address the Committee for ten minutes.

MR M B GWALA: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, and your hon House.  The Minister's speech impressed me very much.  The manner in which the hon Minister explained the workings of his Department made it perfectly clear where the intentions of this Department are taking us as a nation, especially in the light of the fact that we are so short of things pertaining to community work.

It is a known fact that all the Government departments depend on this Department in order for structures to be built for the community or for the Government all over the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.

I know that when we talk about buildings and structures there are those who are dissatisfied about the fact that there is no construction in the ~Amakhosi~ areas and that in the towns it is difficult to build because of an Act which was passed by the KwaZulu Legislative Assembly, known as the Ingonyama Trust Act.  This Act is now controlled by the National Government.

I say that knowing full well that this issue of title deeds is an issue which confronts directly the Department of Local Government and Housing.  This Department is also involved up to a point.  It is also imperative that this issue is revisited so that those who are confused are brought back on the right path.

This is an opportunity for us to look afresh at the work that was done by the KwaZulu Government, because a lot of what is talked about in this House is indeed an effort to confuse the issue.  We have dealt with a lot of it already.  The problem of the use of the land and building on the land is something that was talked about long ago by the Government that I am referring to.  The thing that I would say is causing a delay is that the banks and those that lend money think colonially and are tainted with colonialism.

American laws will benefit American people, and English laws will benefit English people, likewise, African laws will benefit African people.  You cannot take African law and force it on the Americans, because Americans will look down on it.

Laws which were passed by the KwaZulu Government will benefit people of KwaZulu-Natal except those people who are living the lives of animals.  If you take the organisation that lends people money in KwaZulu, the KFC, they have never had problems in building houses for people in areas that are governed by ~Amakhosi~.  This organisation has never encountered any problems except those people that are living in the towns who do not want to pay.

I know how much this Department is criticised when it continues with its work of building where there is a necessity to build, as they are busy building offices for the Premier together with the Director-General, together with building a chamber for the House of Traditional Leaders at ~Ulundi~.

I want to applaud this Department because we are expecting great things from it.  When I think about the issue of the buildings at ~Ulundi~ and those that were against it, I think of the chamber in which the Parliament meets in ~Ulundi~ as a Government.

A lot of people think that that chamber was built by the Pretoria Government which was in power at that time, whereas that is not so.  The Pretoria Government insisted that if we wanted to have a decent chamber built for us we must agree to take independence.

We refused to be baited with the bone that had no meat and we refused to believe that the bone had meat.  The Cabinet of that time did a great job when it stopped certain programmes to enable it to take certain monies and save some money so that the Assembly could have a chamber, that is that chamber that we still have now.

Today we are talking about the building of a chamber for ~Amakhosi~.  We must be very grateful to this Department and its co-operation with the Department of Traditional Affairs together with the Department of the Premier.  ~Ulundi~ must be developed irrespective of whether it becomes the capital or not, the capital of KwaZulu-Natal.  Those who are making a meal out of this issue and involving party politics in community work I say they will get what they are looking for.  They must not involve politics in this work that we are talking about.  They will regret it because this snake that they are poking out of its hole, when it gets out of its hole they will have no place to hide.

I want to say this because in spite of the fact that we have said repeatedly that politics must be taken out of working for the nation, but they insist on politicising the issue.  They must not cause the people to get angry because of this situation arising from the ongoing debate about the buildings at ~Ulundi~.

We must understand this because in the North-West Province the Parliament was built by ~Inkosi~ Mangope at that time and it is being used by the present Government.  Likewise, in the Eastern Cape the buildings that were built by ~Inkosi~ Lennox Sebe are being used, but why as far as KwaZulu is concerned, is there such a big hoo-ha which is made by the members when there is talk about ~Ulundi~ buildings?

If we take the offices pertaining to this Parliament only, not counting the offices in respect of the various departments of Government, money that is wasted every year is more than half a million Rand.  That means that that money is being wasted for no good reason.

This Department of Community Works is the department that built the houses for the members when they are working in ~Ulundi~.  In fact it is better for this Parliament to work in ~Ulundi~ because there are houses which have already been built, which were built by the old KwaZulu Government, rather than wasting money by living in hotels.  That wastes a lot of Government money, and it is difficult for us to say let us build here in Pietermaritzburg as the Parliament is so cramped, the Parliament is even between shops as we are among shops here.  I am saddened when the hon Minister reports that this Government spends money in the amount of R7,1 million, in respect of rental for buildings here in Pietermaritzburg.  It is also very saddening to hear that in Durban the Government spends more than R18,24 million.

If you compare these two cities, Pietermaritzburg and Durban, they are the cities in respect of which a lot of money is spent, because in ~Ulundi~ there are no buildings that are rented.  The buildings that are there have been inherited by this Government and they will stand for eternity.  What is very sad is that there are those who are attempting to be hard-headed as far as the building of buildings in ~Ulundi~ is concerned, not for any good reason, but because there is fearful and bitter hatred.

As a result of that, when those very same people talk about peace we just look on.  I am sorry that there are no Ministers on the other side, when one talks about peace.  On the other hand, there are issues that are similar to this one which cause bitterness and division between the people.  We must forget about mumbling about peace when there are things that cause sadness such as this one which is being done amongst our people.

It will be remembered that those who are refusing for ~Ulundi~ to be developed are those who wanted to march on it as well as those who were of a sterile mind, such as Mbongeni Ngema of Sarafina One, and Sarafina Two, who said blatantly that after the election the buildings at ~Ulundi~ would be given to him so that he could train the youth as he was in charge of a stage production.

He was pacified then by the R14 million that was given to him because he is a stooge of other parties.  Mr Mbongeni Ngema did not stop there, but he went on to say that he would make the parliamentary chamber into a swimming pool for the people.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  The hon member has two minutes.

MR M B GWALA: 
TRANSLATION:  Mr Chairman, I would recommend that this Department continue to build in ~Ulundi~.  Once it has finished building these buildings that we have, we will give it some more work.  There are a lot of things that need to be done there, such as education and universities.  We need to see a wing of one of the universities so that our learned people that are there are able to continue with their education.

We also need to build factories which are similar to those at Isithebe, Ladysmith and Pinetown so that people who are living in that large portion to the north of our country get the opportunity of employment.  Such a programme would greatly assist the programme known as the RDP.

I want to end by saying, Mr Chairman, the buildings that this Department has built in the community are mainly schools, clinics, and also renovating the buildings that were falling down such as hospitals, and also in helping the Department of Traditional Affairs in the building of courthouses for the community and community halls.  That will be of great assistance to the community.

My very last point that I want to make, that those that are howling about public toilets and toilets at school upsets me because it is mainly the National Party that talks about this issue, whereas they are the very people who created the ludicrous situation of toilets at the time when they built two toilets or four toilets which were separated by race.  There were toilets for black people, there were toilets for whites, there were toilets for Coloureds, there were toilets for Indians.  Those toilets which were used in the cities, that money should have been used in the rural areas.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, the hon member Mr Gwala.  I now call on the Minister to reply to the debate.  Mr Minister.

REV C J MTETWA:  (Minister of Public Works):  Mr Chairman, I stand to thank your House.  The members that have debated on my budget speech have done their duty.  They have proved that they are the real employees of the public.  Even their criticisms were constructive, their bashing of my Department was also constructive.  I will not complain.  At times it happens that you find that some of the members seem to overstep their mark by trying to bring election campaigns before the time.  [LAUGHTER]  It was not so today.  The members did their job constructively.

There are a few questions, but because of the time constraints, I will reply to members concerned in writing or verbally discuss those points with them in due course, because they are also my colleagues.

TRANSLATION:  I think, Mr Chairman, that we in this House are employed by the community.  We, as members of Cabinet, have foremen.  The members that do their work are our foremen who guard us, they are our directors who direct us.

If they remonstrate and say we have done wrong they are also involved, because that means that they were unable to direct us properly at the proper time.  They then come and report us here.  I say, they are reporting themselves, they are no better than us.

I am grateful too, Mr Chairman, that the members are coming back to this issue of building at ~Ulundi~.  What I am most grateful for is that today the members remembered that indeed this came from them.  I will not agree that it was not this House, because the members were chosen by this House.  The parties talked about this issue and all this came from them.  From there it was their resolutions that were taken to the Cabinet.  The Cabinet then made a decision and said, "Works, go and do this".  I cannot change that decision.  If this House does not go to the Cabinet and say to the Cabinet, "Change your decision", the Cabinet decision still stands and it says, "These buildings are required in a hurry".

There is another issue, even though the person who raised it has gone out, that is the issue of monies spent on the King, and it is made as if the Department refuses to speak about them.

There is a procedure followed by the Portfolio Committee which causes issues to be leaked to the press beforehand, and then after that they come and ask you.  They ask you about things which have been bandied about for the whole world, and they give out wrong information.  Then they come back to you and say, "Tell us here, what is going on here, and there, and there".  That is what causes the apparent lack of co-operation in that area.

Secondly, we need to tell the truth.  Everybody in this House is here in KwaZulu-Natal.  On other occasions, on another Christmas, members of this House broadcast that the KwaZulu Government had ill-treated the King.

I want to go over this carefully, and say that a lot of what was said there was as a result of the fact that the KwaZulu Government wanted everything to happen in a legal fashion and in an appropriate manner, and that there should not be things which happen just because the King has said something and then money gets taken and put there.  It was then said we had ill-treated the King.

Today Makhaye has turned around and said today we are the people who do not agree to issues pertaining to the King, whereas we are respecting what was said indeed.  It was said we must treat the King well.  That is what we are trying to do.

Thank you, Mr Chairman, and your House for everything.  I have written down everything that the House complained about.  There are certain things that the House has come back to.  Last year I also answered it, the House is still asking that.  Mr Naicker over there said we must not suffer for the sins of others.  I think that my Department is going to carry even the sins that are not its sins.

Last year I answered the question of the issue between the Department of Education and the Department of Works.  That is the question that I am still being asked today.  I am saying to this House, the House must not involve me in saying that I have a problem.  I do not have a problem with the Department of Education.

My Department also does not have a problem.  If my Department has fallen down somewhere and not done what is expected of it, that is all that this House must say.  It must say, "Here you did not do the necessary".  The Department of Works did what was required of it in terms of the Constitution, and that was that all the separate departments should be joined and become one department.

If there is something that has to be separated, this House and the Cabinet only must tell me, and say, "Take this out, and take it to Education".  I will not refuse.  If people just remonstrate with me, I do not know what I am supposed to do.  I am treated as a child when I am so old.

What I am saying then is this.  If you say that there is a problem, do not involve the Department of Works in that problem.  You must say that you have a problem with Education if it does not agree to do what you say it must do.  Ask me what you told me to do which I did not do.  I cannot force any issues.  I did what I was required to do in terms of the law, and I did it completely as it should have been done.  What is my crime?  Is it that I am a light weight and it is easy to insult me?  That is all I can say, there is nothing else.  Everybody has a go at me, but because I am old and it is only children I accept it, my friends.  You have committed no crime.  You are just playing around learning.  Thank you, Mr Chairman.

I now propose that the budget for my Department be accepted by your House.  [LAUGHTER]  T/E

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Thank you very much, hon the Minister.  That concludes the debate on this vote 14 : Public Works.  Can I ask the Speaker to come in.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Chairman, I think the Speaker will be here immediately after lunch.  He had to go to Durban.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  I will just simply report progress at that time and ask leave to sit again.  The hon Mr Premier, is there anything you would like to say?

THE PREMIER:  No thank you, Mr Chairman.

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Then, ladies and gentlemen, the Committee is adjourned and we will resume again at 2 o'clock.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE IS SUSPENDED AT 12:49
	RESUMED AT 14:03

THE CHAIRPERSON:  Mr Speaker, I can report progress that this morning the debate took place on vote 14 : Public Works.  The debate was completed and the voting will take place on Tuesday as arranged.  I accordingly ask your permission for the sitting of the Committee to be continued at a later date.  Thank you.

	THE BUSINESS OF THE COMMITTEE SUSPENDED
	THE BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE RESUMED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The House resumes.  I thank Mr Haygarth who was chairing the vote debate and I accordingly proceed with the ordinary business of the House.  In proceeding with the business of the House, it will be remembered that this morning I had acceded to the request by those Ministers who had been wrongfully informed that the questions will be dealt with as from 2 o'clock.  

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS APPEAR IN THE IVORY PAGES IN VOLUME 6 1997. 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Minister.  That takes care of our questions and finalises all of the questions asked for today.  Accordingly, I wish to then proceed.  I wish to table here a Bill referred to me as the Speaker by the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism.  It is an Amendment Bill which amends a Bill that was passed some time ago.

The Minister has provided me with a certificate of urgency and as such I have acceded to the request that the Bill be treated as a matter of urgency.  I therefore table it and subsequently refer it to the Portfolio Committee on Environmental Affairs and Tourism.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Economic Affairs and Tourism.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Economic Affairs and Tourism.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, just a clarification.  Have you accepted that it is a Bill of an urgent nature and waived the 21 day advertising Rule.  You have to accept that it is urgent and give a ruling, otherwise the Bill cannot be debated.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Rajbansi, I have looked through the certificate of urgency and the reasons stated therein.  I am satisfied that there could be prejudice to the members of the public if the Bill is not dealt with swiftly.  I accordingly have waived the publication and have acceded to the request that the Bill be treated as such.  Thank you.

I wish to then proceed to 8.3 on our Order Paper and that will be a motion by Mr B H Cele.  I have here the list of speakers.  Mr Cele will introduce the motion for eight minutes.  Thank you.

MOTION

	1.	NOTING the alarming high rate of violent crimes against women and children and that in South Africa:

		-	One woman is raped every 83 seconds,

		-	approximately one woman in every five households suffers assault and abuse, often at the hands of family members,

		-	one out of every four girls and one out of every eight boys is sexually molested, often by family members, and

		-	in 1996 there were 24 482 incidents of violence against children

	2.	THEREFORE RESOLVES:

		2.1	to play an active part in fighting and eradicating violence against women and children, and to urge and encourage committees and individual members to lead the campaign in this Province against such violence; and

		2.2	support and promote the work of the Commission for Gender Equality established in terms of section 181(1)(d) of the Constitution.

MR B H CELE:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, this was a motion tabled at ~Ulundi~ some time ago.  Maybe some of us have forgotten about it.  This morning those who listened to Umkhozi, it used to be Radio uZulu, sometimes it was Radio Ubantu.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR B H CELE:  They would have heard this morning, when some children were given the opportunity to express the problems, their hardships that they had encountered as a result of the violence in the Province of KwaZulu-Natal.  It was a moving and quite a painful experience to listen to.  The one child mentioned that seven members of his family had died on one day and at the age of six he was the only one that was spared that night.  It was quite painful.

In the press cuttings before us there is one article written,  "Three million in urgent need.  Help our kids now".  If you look at your cuttings today.  Again little kids telling of their experiences of what had happened to them.

We cannot sit here and hope for a bright future if these matters are not addressed urgently, thoroughly, honestly and earnestly.  As we are sitting here there are very few of us who are not married.  This afternoon when you go home and instead of finding a smiling, beautiful wife - I would imagine that usually every man has a beautiful wife - instead of those smiles you meet tears because she has been raped.  When you try to understand that, that she has been raped, your little three year old girl will come running and say, "Not only mummy was raped but I myself too was raped".

These things happen almost every day, almost every minute.  Unfortunately they become statistics, some of those things out there because they have not come close to us.  It does not end there.  You find a little kid of four years and three years that says, "My father has dragged me into bed and sexually molested me.  My own father".  Those are things that do happen.  People say they do not, they do.

For us to sit here and not address those things, will really be a crime against the future.  I am told by psychologists and those people that deal with therapy when it comes to sexual matters, those kids that are sexually molested, the chances are very slim that they will ever be normal as the time goes on.

We are not then going to produce a nation, especially the foundation of the nation.  It is women who are the mothers of the nation and hope then we are going to have a normal kind of situation in the future.

There are three million kids that need to be looked after, that is almost half of the five to six million kids in the Province at the present moment.  In about 10, 15 to 20 years, you will have half of the people angry in the Province.  Half of the Province is angry and they either want to revenge or avenge.  If we do not begin to address this situation, put up structures.  I know that the Department of Welfare is there.  It is unfortunate that sometimes the money that should be addressing those things goes into the pockets of those gullible and selfish people, abanomona, abanomhobholo, who think that their monies which should be taking care of women, old and young, but instead they want to pocket that money.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Two minutes for the member.

MR B H CELE:  If you look at the Durban statistics alone, we have in 1996, starting with rape, sodomy, incest, indecent assaults, sexual offences right down to 1996, we have 35 838 kids alone, that is 1996, assault of different kinds but mostly sexually.  1995 there were 28 000.  1994 there were 23 000.  1993 there were 17 000.  There is such an escalation.

Somewhere, somehow, somebody will have to say no, and it is us that will have to say no.  Not by talking in this Parliament but by putting and setting up the structures and go out there and begin to do something together with other structures, that cause and hope other people will talk about it.  It is no use for us to cry and mourn about it, instead this Parliament will have to stand up.  Now is the time.  Not tomorrow but now to do something and something very serious.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you a lot from the hon member Mr Cele.  I now call upon Mrs A Mchunu and she has six minutes.  Mrs Mchunu.

MRS A MCHUNU:  Mr Speaker, the figures of rape and child abuse given by the hon ~Inkosi~ N J Ngubane in his budget speech are frightening.

The same thing applies to the motion that has been tabled by the hon Mr Cele.  One just does not know where we are heading to.  If one woman is raped every 83 seconds and so many children have been sexually abused one has got to really wonder what is happening.

We are talking about the breakdown of social fabric.  This is a disgrace, particularly in our Province where we are known for our good values.  Despite our political freedom of April 27, 1994, we do not seem to be heading in the right direction.  There does not seem to be happiness.  You know, having attained the freedom there should be a difference in whatever is happening.  Instead we are going down the tunnel and life seems to be getting far worse than it was.

If social fabric crimes are totally out of hand, and the weak and helpless are being sodomised and raped then we as leaders must look at what is happening.

The crumbling of cultural values in communities and families has resulted in the production of men who are animals and who are out to attack the weak and helpless in communities.  Women of low morals seduce men in hostels in urban areas, in order to steal their money.  Then migrant labourers fail to support their families in rural areas.  Women are raped, men are raped.  When men fear to approach women they abuse children.

Criminals who rape women and sexually abuse children do not get the punishment they deserve.  When friends are gaoled for committing such crimes the bail is paid for them.  Lawyers are solicited to get criminals out of gaol to continue committing these crimes.

People who commit the crimes come from families, so family values need to be revived or strengthened.  We can have policemen, fair enough, everywhere, in every corner and crevice, but if there is something wrong within ourselves, within our families, that will not make any difference whatsoever.

Socio-economic issues that have added to our ills do need to be addressed, in order to create jobs and lessen wanderers, drug pushers, alcohol abusers, who at the end of the day rape women and abuse children.

Support and promotion of gender equality should be applied through respect and appreciation of the sexes.  By day it may be support for the gender equality but by night it will be fists and whipping the women and children.  So each and every one of us has got to examine his or her own conscience.  We are either contributors to the ills that are happening right now or we are just incompetent or, I do not know what to say.  We are just being too weak to fight the very crimes that are there.

The employment of a Provincial Public Protector is a great necessity for the protection of the weak, the helpless and the isolated.

Professor Klaus yesterday, at the launch of religion against crime, clearly stated that our society is deeply traumatised and sick.  We are all victims of trauma caused by past injustices, present unfulfilled promises and the lack of vision into the future.  Rape and sexual abuse is very serious in that there is the scourge of HIV and AIDS.

One cannot really tell where AIDS/HIV starts and ends, whether it is the HIV people who are all out to show their revenge against communities or what.  So let us take care of whoever may be HIV positive in our families.  We must help and take care of those people in the communities.

The religious leaders therefore should help us all to find ourselves and to know where we are in our Province.  The spreading of HIV through rape and sexual abuse of children makes our freedom a laughing stock.

Criminals have to be punished according to the crimes committed.  The Provincial Police Department has to be given more powers.  Municipalities and local authorities should have their own police as well.

The National Minister of Safety and Security has to work hand in hand with the Provincial Minister of Safety and Security in fighting crime in the Province.  There must be co-operation between the National and Provincial Ministers to fight crime.  I thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mrs Mchunu, hon member.  I now call upon Mrs Galea who has eight minutes.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Much of what my colleague across the way, the hon Mrs Mchunu, has said about HIV/AIDS really concerns me as well.

In the Welfare Department's White Paper we read that it is estimated that one in six South African women is beaten by a male partner.  According to the South African Police Services only 2,8% of rapes are reported.  They estimate that approximately 966 000 women were raped in 1993.

In the Natal Witness there are headlines:

	Crisis for those who help rape survivors.  The city branch of the Rape Crisis offers 24 hour support to rape survivors in places as far afield as Tugela Ferry and St Lucia.  At the moment it is being run by two students whose resources are stretched to breaking point.

In the South Coast Herald:

	Rape figures rise by 91%.  According to police statistics, 266 Lower South Coast women were raped between January and November last year.  Alarmingly, this represents a massive 91% increase since 1995.  Volunteers who assist rape victims in their new Trauma Centre in Port Shepstone point out that rape is an issue which concerns all women.

I say, and men.

	Of the 47 cases since the centre opened last year, most have been rapes.  The victims have come from all sectors of the community.  And rape victims can be any age.  The oldest rape victim on their records was a woman of 86 years of age.  The youngest victim a mere four years old.

In The Saturday Paper, "Police must be retrained", and here it gives what to do when you are raped.

1.	Go to a safe place.
2.	Find someone you can trust and tell them what has happened.
3.	Try not to wash and do not throw away any clothes that you are wearing.
4.	Wrap the clothes in paper, not in plastic packets as this will destroy the evidence.
5.	Do not take alcohol or drugs.
6.	Phone Rape Crisis for further practical advice, emotional support and counselling.

I will not go into the stats because of my limited time, but if I have to I will go into that.  Child abuse affects the most vulnerable of our society, our children.

Childline work with victims of rape on a daily basis.  One of the problems they encounter with child victims is that the perpetrator of this sexual crime is usually someone who is close to the child and is frequently in a parental position to the child.

Often the sexual crime has occurred on a number of occasions but the child has either been threatened not to disclose or else may have, despite the sexual crime, an affectionate tie with the offender.

Increased pressure may also be placed on the child by other family members not to disclose, as presently does sometimes happen, where the offender is the family breadwinner.

The experience of these working in the field of child abuse internationally, that castration, either chemical or surgically, does not necessarily end the desire to cause sexual hurt.

Sometimes offenders will use other implements or their hands to violate the bodies of those victims, in instances where they cannot use their so-called manhood.  It is not safe to assume that the problem with sexual offenders lies with the genitals.  The problem is psycho-social.

The Childline Family Centre is in Percy Osborne Road.  Their toll free crisis line is 0800055555.  Their aims and objectives are to fight child abuse.  The Childline Family Centre receives no Government funding.  It is supported entirely by donations from companies, service groups and individuals in the KwaZulu-Natal Province.  In view of the service they provide I trust that Parliament will support that the Department give them a grant per person assisted.

Any person, for example parents, doctors, teachers, who suspect that a child is being ill-treated must report the matter to the police or the welfare agency.  Failure to do so is now a criminal offence, subject to a fine or imprisonment of 12 months.

The opinion has been expressed that victims have generally more to lose than to gain if they lay charges against their attackers.  Specialised training is needed for the police and Justice Department personnel dealing with rape cases.  They need to speed up special rape courts, installing of one-way mirrors which would do away with the confrontational experience of victims facing their attacker.

Yesterday at Religion Against Crime, the Swami mentioned drinking and drugs.  I just wanted to mention that it is not always true, some abusers are teetotallers while others often use alcohol and drugs as an excuse to beat their partners.  Many women forgive their husbands after a beating saying, "He was drunk", which merely gives them a go-ahead to do it again while under the influence of alcohol.

Men often refuse to take responsibility for the abuse by blaming it on a loss of control due to the effects of alcohol, drugs, frustration, stress or the victim's behaviour.  Many studies show the high rate of alcohol and drug abuse among men who abuse their partners.  There is insufficient evidence to support the cause effect relationship.

What is known about the relationship is that:

(a)	Battering or abuse is a socially learned behaviour and not as a result of substance abuse.
(b)	Many men who abuse their wives do not abuse alcohol or drugs.
(c)	Alcoholism treatment does not cure abusive behaviour, the problem must be dealt with separately.
(d)	Many alcoholics do not abuse their partners.

Violent behaviour, researchers argue, occurs because of a complicated set of individual, situational and social factors.

Our Chairman mentioned the stats about child abuse, but I just wanted to say and repeat some of these.  Rape in January 1993 was 370.  In 1994 it grew to 539.  In 1995 it grew to 787.  This is just rape, not sodomy, not incest.  In 1996 it was 1 205.  In January 1997 it was 1 314.  It is growing all the time.  So that is why I believe that we must support places like child homes and Rape Crisis.  I just wanted to go a little bit further on the Childline.  The centre serves all people, children and adults.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  30 seconds more.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you.  Provides help to victims of child abuse, provides assistance to children in danger and distress, provides help to parents who experience difficulty with their children or fear that they may abuse their children.  It aims to give concerned members of the public an opportunity to report cases of suspected child abuse.  It acts as a referral resource for professionals, eg doctors, teachers, psychologists, social workers who want guidance with problem cases.  Childline Centres therefore provides an emergency 24 hour telephone referral service which renders immediate intervention/counselling, including short term follow-up and referral to a welfare agent for long term appropriate management.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time up.

MRS C E GALEA:  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you from the hon member.  I now call upon Mrs Teresa Millin who has six minutes.  Your Ladyship.

MRS T E MILLIN:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, first may I commend the hon member Mr Cele, for the initiative he has shown in bringing this motion, particularly as a male!  In the words of a Judge recently, and reported in the Citizen of 26 April 1997, "Crime has become the national sport".  So it has with criminals of every description, including rapists roaming free to perpetrate every horrendous crime imaginable, while the vast majority of decent, law-abiding citizens of our country cower behind the bars of their homes, shops, schools and offices, prisoners of the very system that has allowed such a nightmare to happen.

The "heart of darkness" that has cast such an evil shadow over all of us, is manifested in all its menacing force in the dastardly perpetration of rape, which in turn is an integral part of the cycle of criminal violence in South Africa today.  An avalanche of immense proportions, to quote Klaus Nürnberger's words in the launch of "religion against crime" in Pietermaritzburg yesterday.

Anyone who reads newspapers, listens to radio, watches TV, or hears the cries of victims of the rape holocaust cannot but be acutely aware of this menace, where no infant or old woman is safe.  One recalls two recent reports of a three month old baby, and I have even heard of one, Mrs Galea, of a 100 years plus, both victims of rape.  Even boys and men do not escape this scourge, and regularly fall victim to sodomised rape.

Such evil is indeed a tragic reflection of our sick society and, at the very time when we should be applying radical and painful methods to cut out the very roots of this evil cancer in our society, again, as Klaus Nürnberger of "religion against crime" stated, and I quote:

	Good doctors will apply very painful methods to cut out cancer to save, not to torture or destroy.

We could as a nation, have instead effectively given free reign to every criminal to do his worst.  Undoubtedly, the legalisation of pornography has grossly aggravated the rampant and growing cancer of rape...

in spite of the assurances of the liberal left Judge John Didcott of the Constitutional Court, when legalisation on pornography was passed, who stated:

	What erotic material I may choose to keep within the privacy of my home and only for my personal use, is nobody's business but mine.

	And again, it is certainly not the business of society or the State.

Society in general, nevertheless, is further sickened, debased and dehumanised by the disastrous implications emanating from the Constitutional Court's ruling on the legalisation on pornography, and illustrated by the testimony of one Jacob Cele, (I trust it is no relative!) who was charged with raping an eight year old girl, and who told the Pietermaritzburg Regional Court on 29 January 1996, on visiting the house of a relative in Imbali in September 1995, that he found a sexually explicit magazine called "Velvet" which the relative presumably kept in the privacy of his own home for his personal use.

The accused, Cele informed the court that the magazine's contents had sexually aroused him to the extent that he could not control his urges, and raped an eight year old girl who happened to be in the room, after having shown the girl the magazine.  In spite of this, Cele's sentence was a mere eight years' imprisonment.

There is no lack of evidence equating the porno plague with sex crimes.  The famous case of Ted Bundy, the American serial sex killer, is just but one example.  We need punishment to fit the crime, and nothing less than a return to the death penalty or castration will act as a deterrent, and for those few good people who still say that the death penalty has not proved to be a deterrent, I would just like to say, has not having the death penalty proved to be a deterrent?  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mrs Millin.  I therefore now call upon Mrs Cronje for six minutes.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  About three years ago when I was still practising as an attorney, I had a call one morning from a very distraught woman who lived in a small town some 300 kilometres away from Pietermaritzburg.

She had been raped the night before by a policeman stationed in the town in which she lived.  She was in her 20s and still a virgin before she was raped.  This was confirmed by the doctor's report.

There was only one police station in that town, and all the policemen were the perpetrator's friends and colleagues.  The woman simply could not bring herself to go and report her case there.  She did not even feel that she could go to the attorneys in that town, given the dynamics of a small town.

She was a very brave woman and despite her fears, wanted to proceed with the case, hence she sought my advice.  Her brother brought her all the way, 300 kilometres from that town.  We drafted her affidavit from my office in Pietermaritzburg.  I arranged to go back with her to report the case in her home town.

Attorneys get pretty thick-skinned when dealing with the police.  I can assure you that even for me it was a very awkward and traumatic experience, given the treatment we received there.  The victim was totally traumatised by that time, despite all the support that she had.  Moreover, after reporting the incident, she began to receive threatening anonymous phone calls.

We arranged, again from Pietermaritzburg, for there existed no such an organisation in her home town, for Rape Crisis to assist and support her through the trial.  She eventually won the case and the man in question received a gaol sentence.

She was one of the lucky ones, ironical as it may sound because she immediately went to a doctor.  She knew an attorney that she could turn to.  She was put in touch with Rape Crisis and she won her case.

I call her lucky, because rape has the lowest conviction rate of any major offence, a 22% conviction rate, whereas about 50% or more of murder cases have convictions.

But a conviction does not necessarily mean a gaol sentence.  According to Lisa Vetten, Education Co-ordinator for the Sexual Harassment Education Project in Gauteng, only 0,7% of rapists convicted in 1993 were gaoled.  0,7% were gaoled, convicted rapists.

I have told this story that I experienced with a client to illustrate how traumatic rape is for somebody who has support.  The question I want to pose is, what about the thousands and thousands of women who get no assistance at all.  Who are scared and bewildered and do not know who to turn to because very often, and it seems that it is in about 80% plus cases, rape is committed either by a family member, a friend or an acquaintance.

What about the women who do not know their rights or what support is available, who live miles and miles away from either a police station, a doctor or a counsellor and the women who simply do not report rape?

Statistics show that one in 20 cases of rape is probably reported in South Africa.  According to experts, this puts our annual figures at approximately one million, the highest in the world.

In preparation for today, I spoke to some Rape Crisis counsellors last night.  They all agree that the issue of knowing your rights as a victim, of knowing what to do and what not to do, of knowing what assistance is available and whom to contact is paramount.  This information should be freely available and publicised.  I want to appeal to the press to do that.

The counsellors also tell me that more often than not, victims who go to a police station, are not given the information as to what their rights are and what assistance and counselling is available.

A victims first contact is very often with an untrained, hostile, unsympathetic police person, who simply does not have the knowledge to deal with the situation.  The counsellors also tell me that it still takes at best five to six hours for a victim to go through the process of reporting, making a statement, being seen by a doctor etcetera, etcetera.  That is when assisted by a counsellor, by a Rape Crisis counsellor.  Heaven help the thousands of women who have nobody to turn to for assistance.

One counsellor told me she was phoned by a woman three days after having been raped, still unwashed at that stage because nobody would help her.  I am also told that often when the district surgeon is telephoned he wants to know whether it is really necessary for him to come, and the woman sits around unwashed waiting.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  One minute more.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  The good news that they told me is that there is now a Rape Unit serving the Midlands.  However, when I telephoned the Rape Unit's number last night at 8 o'clock, the phone just rang and rang and there was no reply.  I later found out from another counsellor that they only work office hours, but that one can contact them through radio control and then they put you in touch with them and so on.

I did not know that as an informed person.  How many members knew that?  How many members even know that such a unit exists?  What about people without telephones?  Why was there not at least an answering machine at the other end telling me what to do?  There was just nothing and I was preparing for a speech, I had not been raped.

I also want to commend my hon colleague Bheki for taking this initiative, and I fully support the motion and want to add my voice to the others who urge this House to take action.

Furthermore, just in conclusion, rape is not a feminist issue.  It affects fathers, husbands, brothers, grandfathers, boyfriends, sons.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  It is as much a male issue as a woman's issue.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now call upon Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, I would like to echo the words of the last speaker.  Rape, sexual assault, violence is an issue for everybody in this country.  It is an issue that if we are going to do something about, and that is why I like the motion of the hon member Mr Cele, it is something that we are actively going to have to do in this House.

I will tell you what that means.  It means an individual in this House or two or three getting together and saying, "This is what we would like this House to pass and we are going to find the money to do it because we have got the power to vote funds".  It is not enough that we let it stop here.

Violence against women and children is not purely sexual, it is and has to do with violence in our society.  The fact that children in nappies are being raped and women who are 90 are being raped indicates that it is not sexual violence, it has a lot to do with the nature of our society, a violent society.  A society, male dominated.  A society in which women have been subjugated.  That we must change and that we must grasp.

The whole question of family violence.  As a society we have too often turned a blind eye and said it is the husband's prerogative to beat his wife or beat his children.  Forget it.  He must go to gaol if he does it.  We must stand up and say that clearly.

We have had a society over the past number of years where we have had a reversion of family values, where children have come to dominate their parents.  We must reverse that again.  We must get the parents standing up and saying to boys who are behaving in ways that is causing violence to others, "You have to stop it and you will be stopped".

AN HON MEMBER:  Hear! Hear!

MR R M BURROWS:  What we need to say, and it goes along with what the last member said, is when we look at the protection mechanisms that society provides, we in this House can do something about it.

The hon member Mrs Galea has said there is a law which says that teachers and social workers and nurses have a duty to report cases of molestation and child assault.  I want to tell you that a circular should go to every single one of our 82 000 teachers, to say when you see a child that is assaulted it is your duty to report it.  You cannot turn a blind eye to the child who comes to school with cigarette stubs on it and who has got bruises up and down their backs.

We need to investigate the South African Police Service in this Province to see whether everything is being done.  The horrific cases of women who go to police stations, the kind of case Mrs Cronje has just cited, who go to police stations and get no co-operation.  We must ask questions in this House, we must name names, we must talk about police station commanders and name them in this House.

That is what we can do because, we are the most privileged.  There are 85 of us here who can actually stand in this House and say things.  Nobody can take us to court, nobody can take us to civil judgment, nobody can take us to trial.  When we name names and we name names in this House that is what we must be doing.  We must be naming the names of those who are harming the eight and a half/nine million people out there, because we speak on their behalf.  Thank you, Chair.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  I now call upon Mr Rajbansi.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Mr Rajbansi who has two minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  The statistics given to us by the Commissioner of our Provincial Police Force indicates that not less than 50% of attacks on females is under the heading "Rape".

Last year the entire Chatsworth area rose to attention with anger when a schoolgirl was raped and killed.  Two months ago 200 ladies in Chatsworth killed a rapist who raped a young schoolgirl.  We call for the National Government to introduce legislation, to ensure that the courts give a mandatory sentence of up to 20 to 25 years for rapists.  I may suggest that we could build a floating prison and leave them in the sea, not in the mines.

HON MEMBERS:  INTERJECTIONS

MR A RAJBANSI:  Including the mines.  We worry about casinos.  We have in this Province the greatest menace to society, most of these attacks are drug related and alcohol related.  Let us look at the fight in a multi-pronged way.  Society must rise, we must rise and we must tackle the shebeens and the drug abusers.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  I now call upon Mrs Downs who has two minutes.

MRS J M DOWNS:  Mr Speaker, it is not really enough time to say what one would like to say.  Having said that, I would like to paraphrase from the book of James where it tells somebody that if a man comes to him and says he is hungry and the person just prays and sends the man on his way, then he has actually achieved nothing.

In the same way we can stand up here in this House and we can talk all we like.  I personally have brought the issue of rape before this House on at least five separate occasions.  If we do nothing then we have not achieved anything.  I want to tell you that I, in my capacity as leader of the ACDP, have taken some steps to do something about this.

The first thing that we are going to do is we have tabled in this House, and it is going to go through the process, it is with the Speaker of Parliament at the moment, a Bill which is called The KwaZulu-Natal Commissioner of Children's Bill to deal with these very issues.  I hope that that Bill will have the support of the majority of this House.

I also give notice, watch the press for details.  I intend to do something about rape.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mrs Downs.  That is quite a mouthful that you have said in fact in about a minute.  That was marvellous.  I now call upon Mr Dlamini who has six minutes.

MR F DLAMINI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, a lot of grim and shocking scenarios have been placed before us, rightly so.  One can understand the mood, because very little has been done about the situation in the past.

For now within the given time constraints, I propose to concentrate on the generic possible causes.  I am not going to say much about the psycho-social causes because most of them have been dealt with.  I would also like to look at some of the strategies that could perhaps be adopted to fight this phenomenon.

The following are some of the possible causes:

1.	Ill planned urbanisation.
2.	Modernisation.
3.	Social disorganisation where families have become disorganised and ravaged by numerous social ills.  We have seen a destruction of a moral fibre of family units as well as individuals within those family units.
4.	The other issues are perhaps the question of acculturation, or the process of acquiring values, norms and morals from other cultural groups, which have been more destructive than enriching in the development of a national social system.
5.	Also the cultural assimilation or merging of cultures has not been a smooth natural process.  This has done a lot of harm also to the values and norms of the different cultural groups.
6.	Lack of support systems have disappeared with the advent of family disorganisation.  This has left people without coping skills.  I must confess, that whilst this is not only peculiar to the African communities, it is more evident in this group.  Other races have also been assisted to a certain degree by well structured social welfare support systems and therefore appear to be in a slightly better position.

I would like to deal with the interventions that may be considered in fighting this scourge.  Firstly, one needs to look at family preservation programmes.  Social worker's interventions should be called for and this can be taken as a continued support system, offered by social workers dealing with traumatised and other destabilising influences to family life.

I know this has not been done sufficiently because of the shortage of human resources, and because of lack of appropriate training in this regard.

Community conferences which is a concept that can be applied successfully in handling this situation.  This component deals with structures established within the community to provide needed support and counselling by members who have the skills, and a good and in-depth understanding of community dynamics.

Youth development component to provide life skills, leadership skills and all other coping skills to transform their lives, particularly youth at risk and those who have already been in conflict with the law.  These are some of the areas that need very serious attention.

There is also the dimension of intersectoral co-operation.  Here I am referring particularly to social service Ministries such as Welfare, Health, Education and perhaps Labour to a certain degree.  These sectors are in a good position to identify behaviour deviations that may lead to crime and if an early intervention in this area can be made, it could save us quite a lot.  I thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Dlamini, for time conservation.  I now ask the hon member who does not seem to be present.  Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Mr Speaker, my apologies on behalf of Mr Mkhwanazi, who has given his apologies.  He is preparing to leave for Zimbabwe tomorrow morning.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  Mr Mkhwanazi is not available.  I will therefore ask Mr D P Mfayela who has six minutes.  Baba.

MR D P MFAYELA: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I am grateful for being afforded this opportunity to be able to say something in this motion which is so important.  Where we see the nation having turned into Sodom and Gomorrah.

What caused the situation to be thus, hon Speaker, it is because people were rounded up in the rural areas and brought to the towns.  There in the rural areas we do not know anything about this that is alleged, namely that so many people have raped, children.

There in the rural areas, Mr Speaker, there are ~Amakhosi~ who have the law in their warm hands.  I would urge this House of yours, in order for your House to get assistance, they must bring ~Amakhosi~ closer to them to give them advice.  It is obvious that these Governments that exist are unable to control the situation that is similar to this.

In the ~Amakhosi~ areas if there was a person who had raped a woman, that person was in for a very, very tough time indeed.  Today we see children of two years of age being abused, or children from three years and upwards.

If these children were being abused in our places in the rural areas where ~Amakhosi~ are in control of the law, and they being the people are blessed by God to be on this earth in order to govern, I really do not know what would happen to these people, because there is a Government which is trustworthy, which is of God.

Here the things which cause women to be raped, there is a situation where women are no longer able to look after themselves.  These women walk around wearing dress that says, to coin a Zulu proverb, you only buy something that you have seen.  Even here on the television they show films which are not suitable to be seen by the community.

There was a huge issue with our Government to the effect that even though people were doing bad things, such as these, when they had raped people, when they had killed people, it was said they should be let off and should not be given the death penalty.  They are given bail.  People like Father Madondo stand up and say, "As far as this person is concerned, there is no evidence", in spite of the fact that the person has done a bad thing in sight of the people, and that the people have seen him.

I am grateful because Father Madondo has finally realised that this does not work.  Then he came to this House, so we all fight together with him and we say, "No, my friends, this thing of people raping in this fashion must come to an end".

I trust then that in spite of them being raped in this fashion, Father Mavovo is going to give us condoms as he has done before, so that in spite of any danger which might perhaps exist we will be protected by his condoms.  The penis sheaths of the whites.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I am supporting this motion, sir.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: [Thank you, Father Mfayela.  We thank you in particular regarding the penis sheaths of the whites].  I now wish to call upon the mover of the motion, Mr B Cele, to close the debate.

MR B H CELE:  I thank you, Mr Speaker.  We should not fall in the trap of the silence of the lamb.  Definitely there is a lot of sexual harassment and molestation out there in the rural areas.  The only problem is, we do not know.  The only problem is, it is not reported.  So we cannot say then it is all right.  The only thing we need to do is to improve communication and understanding.  These things do happen.

As people were talking here.  Several departments, like Education were mentioned.  One could suggest that we should not just sit here and talk about these things, it is one area where I believe we have found a common ground.  As Mrs Millin said that she also supports Chele, meaning Cele.  [LAUGHTER]

It is one where we have found common ground and definitely several departments were mentioned.  One would suppose then that it is led by the Department of Welfare, Education is part of it, Health is part of it, Safety and Security to find some kind of the co-ordinating structure to begin to deal earnestly and find finances, as Mr Burrows has suggested.  We need to find finances to begin to deal with this matter.  We should all be out there and definitely take off our political caps when we deal with this matter.  It is a national scourge, it is a provincial scourge.  All of us must be part of it and work hand in hand.

Hence, I will then formally move the motion. Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Cele.  The motion has now been formally moved and the debate seemed to be very, very positive.  Can I have a seconder.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, it gives me pleasure to second it on behalf of the IFP.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  I would like to take the route where each party indicates what their position is.  Mr Burrows.

MR R M BURROWS:  Could I indicate on behalf of the minor parties here that we will accept and fully support the resolution of this House.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Burrows.  National Party.

MR G HAYGARTH:  This party supports it wholeheartedly, Mr Speaker.

MRS C M CRONJE: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, I suppose it is quite obvious, but for the record the ANC supports it fully as well because it is moved in the name of one of our members but as a party we also support it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much.  That makes this motion to be unanimously adopted by this House.  I will therefore not bother to put the question.  The motion has been unanimously adopted.  

MOTION

	1.	NOTING the alarming high rate of violent crimes against women and children and that in South Africa:

		-	One woman is raped every 83 seconds,

		-	approximately one woman in every five households suffers assault and abuse, often at the hands of family members,

		-	one out of every four girls and one out of every eight boys is sexually molested, often by family members, and

		-	in 1996 there were 24 482 incidents of violence against children

	2.	THEREFORE RESOLVES:

		2.1	to play an active part in fighting and eradicating violence against women and children, and to urge and encourage committees and individual members to lead the campaign in this Province against such violence; and

		2.2	support and promote the work of the Commission for Gender Equality established in terms of section 181(1)(d) of the Constitution.

THE MOTION AS MOVED BY MR B H CELE - PASSED

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  We will now proceed with the second motion of the day.  I call upon Mr Tarr to introduce the motion for eight minutes please.


MOTION

	THIS HOUSE -

	noting with concern the high level of unemployment in this, the most populous Province of our country believes that all avenues of sustainable job creation should be investigated.

	THEREFORE RESOLVES -

	to instruct the Portfolio Committee of Economic Affairs and Tourism and the Cabinet to investigate all means of job creation, and the Premier and the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism to report back to this House before September 1997.  Such investigations should, inter alia, cover the following areas of potential job creation:

	1.	Manufacture for export;
	2.	Rural development by promoting cash crops for small farmers;
	3.	Capitalising on Spacial Development Initiatives (SDIs);
	4.	Benefication of local raw materials; and
	5.	Unlocking tourism potential.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, it gives me pleasure to move the motion that stands in my name on the Order Paper.  Before commencing, Mr Speaker, I would like to point out one small error in the motion as printed, it is not the same as the one which I moved yesterday and the change is, under the section where it says:

	Therefore resolves -

	to instruct the Portfolio Committee of Economic Affairs and Tourism and the Cabinet to investigate all means of job creation.

And then this is where the error comes in:

	And the Premier and Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism.

So it is obviously a line function of the Minister of Economic Affairs and Tourism but in terms of the motion we would like both those senior Ministers in this House to be jointly responsible.

Mr Speaker, unemployment is really one of the most serious problems which faces our country.  There is a lot of talk about unemployment, there is a lot said about doing something about unemployment, but unfortunately it seems to be a very, very difficult problem to come to grips with, and success is very limited.

It is responsible for many of the evils in our society.  Being unemployed takes the dignity away from people.  Imagine if you cannot support your family and you are unemployed?  That takes away all human dignity.  It is responsible for families living in poverty under appalling conditions.  It is responsible for children not being able to get the breaks they deserve in life.  For example, access to good education, reasonable diet and many other facilities as well.

We believe that it is time now that Parliament itself, instead of talking about it, also made some sort of effort.  We must do something positive about dealing with unemployment and get away from this Parliament being perhaps only a talk shop, but also a working Parliament, a hands-on Parliament, that gets out there and tries to do some things.

In the motion before members, there are a number of areas which we believe should be investigated, listed under items one to five.  Quite clearly, this is not completely exhaustive but they are important areas which we believe could be looked at and of course many of them do overlap.

Under area No 1.  We all hear frequently that, in order to progress, this country needs to export.  Our domestic markets are small.  In order to get economies of scale we need to be able to export as well.

One area which is somewhat controversial, but I would like to raise it today for consideration by the House, which I believe should be investigated is the whole question of export processing zones.

I have said this is controversial but I think its controversialness, if there is such a word, lies in the fact that export processing zones or EPZs as you call them, are not fully understood.

Very briefly, what are EPZs?  It is really the creation of a sector or the support of a sector or sectors in the economy only aimed at exports, not aimed at producing for the local economy at all.  If it is only aimed at export, what is produced in EPZs does not in any way compete with other sectors which are producing for the local economy because EPZs, as you will see later on, are going to get certain advantages which would enable them to compete unfairly, were they to work in the domestic market.

The purpose is to enable our country, through an EPZ, to compete on the international market.  We all know we cannot.  In other words then, if we can put EPZs in place, and we can, but how do we do that?

First of all, raw materials that are imported into the country there must be no duties, there are no tariffs.  Those raw materials are converted into a product and goes straight out of the country again.  They do not filter into the local economy.

There should be tax-free holidays.  We already have a situation where we can have tax-free holidays.  Tax-free holidays and then after that nominal rates of taxation.  We have got to bite the bullet at some stage.  We should, in EPZ areas, be able to be more flexible in terms of wage rates and bargaining on wages.

Then finally, one thing we should note about an EPZ is that this country, we do not have restricted export quotas in the main markets which we would be looking at.  For example, such as the United States and Europe.

What are some of the advantages that can come from an EPZ?  First of all, there can be the benefication of local raw materials.  Let us look at rural development, let us look at the Makhathini Flats.  Cotton is an ideal product for small farmers to produce.  An EPZ could provide a market for all the cotton that all the small farmers in this Province could produce.  We can secure through an EPZ foreign investment.  More important than anything else, technology from overseas where we lack.

EPZs would create many new job opportunities.  I have a document in my possession which members might care to look at, which shows what an EPZ has done for Mauritius.  That country where there was 45% unemployment there is now 100% employment and they are importing labour from other countries, solely through the creation of an Export Processing Zone.

Of course with greater employment, more skills being imparted to our workforce we get other benefits as well.  Greater social stability and all the positive benefits that can come out of that.

I have only concentrated on one section of this resolution, but an EPZ obviously could also make some input towards spacial development initiatives, benefication of local raw materials, I have mentioned that, and of course, promoting cash crops for small farmers, the one example which I gave was cotton.

What we are seeking to do through this motion is to try and get a joint initiative of this House and the Cabinet to report back to this House, and say what we are going to do.  The time has passed that we talk about these things.  It is so critical and so serious that we for once need to stand up and say what we are going to do.  I certainly hope that this motion will go a long way towards getting some positive action.  Thank you, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Tarr, for introducing the motion.  I now call upon the Minister of Health, the hon Dr Mkhize who has six minutes.

DR Z L MKHIZE: (Minister of Health): 
TRANSLATION:  Thank you very much, Mr Speaker.  I want to say thank you very much to this hon House, because this motion which is being discussed shows the maturity of leadership in this House.  It also shows that tempers have subsided, and the coming to an end of the governing of the country in viciousness and the anger which is based on partisan political parties.  

This issue, together with that of crime which has just been discussed, those are the very problems that were chosen for us as members of this House so that we can look for a solution of solving problems, such as poverty which exists, the lack of employment, and especially looking after our youth, and women who are the people who face the most hardship, especially those that are in the rural areas.  T/E

I therefore wish to indicate my unreserved support for the motion and thank the hon member.  I feel very proud to be part of this discussion wherein we are discussing proposals for serious solutions.

People in South Africa voted overwhelmingly to change their own lives.  There are people who had no jobs before 1994 and remained without jobs after the 1996 elections, people who know what it is to spend a night with an empty stomach and those who have been tempted to pickpocket pensioners because of hunger, what does freedom mean to them?

I really wish to commend the Premier and the Minister for Economic Affairs, for their role in producing the economic development strategies, and their working together with the business leaders of this Province.

We must also remember that although it is estimated that the unemployment rate is about 45%, but there are areas where there are pockets of unemployment and the rate is as high as 78%, according to a stat which was done by the Development Bank of South Africa, in areas like Nkandla and so on.

I think for this Province the priorities are job creation, education and training, skills development and good health for the population.  Special attention, as I have said, needs to be given to the youth, women and especially people in the rural areas, who have got no industries, no water, no land.

As an example, I want to say that the Department of Health has committed about R45 million for programmes on nutrition, which incorporates food security and nutritional surveillance.  We need to ensure that there is stronger and more co-ordination between Agriculture and the Department of Health and other departments.  We did launch one project which was a pilot project in Maputoland wherein the sponsorship for this purpose of R3,5 million last month.

May I therefore suggest that a co-ordination subcommittee be set up by the Cabinet to bring together all the developmental projects of the various departments, with a view to reducing duplication and avoiding wastage of resources, to produce maximal benefit to targeted communities as a contribution to reducing unemployment.

I must also commend the leaders of this Province for embracing peace, thus creating an investor friendly Province.  Of course we know that the Government will not fully employ the masses of the unemployed, but it can do a lot to create conditions for economic growth.

This Province has of course got tremendous potential.  Because of its geographical location, KwaZulu-Natal is well positioned to take advantage of the trade links between South East Asia and Latin America.  With a good vision and good planning this possibility will attract so much business that the Province will be turned into the centre of economic activity for the country.  The tourism potential may turn KwaZulu-Natal into the way that mines have turned the reef into a rich Gauteng.

Therefore this Government must invest urgently in its people, invest in their education, in their training, in their skills development and in their health.  That way the population of this Province will be counted as one of those assets that will attract potential investors and reverse the tendency to exporting labour from this Province.

With those words, Mr Speaker, I wish to commend the mover of the motion and express my support.  We are looking forward to these discussions and the report back from the Premier and the hon Minister for Economic Affairs, to give guidance to this House.  With those words, thank you very much, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Minister.  I now call upon Mr B Edwards who has eight minutes.

MR B V EDWARDS:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  The motion before the House today, I believe, is a wide ranging one.  I am sure there is no member here who will not back the very real need to address job creation and promote the potential of economic assets of our most versatile Province.

I certainly support the hon Mr Tarr on his proposal of EPZs provided of course that fair competition prevails.  I am sure Mr Tarr said that.

The sentiments and philosophy of the motion must be seen, however, against the backdrop of the economic realities of South Africa and mirrored in KwaZulu-Natal.

According to one of the countries leading asset management houses, the domestic economic outlook had deteriorated markedly in the past two years, in particular.  That is sad news.

In a confidential report it says:

	In its view, the collapse of the Rand, 25% last year (and we have had a small recovery this year), and the rise in interest rates has been the consequence of too gradual economic reform, together with the apparent stranglehold organised labour has over blocking progress in the Government's macro economic strategy.  It appears Mr Mandela is held prisoner by this voting block.

It is not my words.  Much more should have been done to attract long term foreign capital and increase local savings, given the imperative for economic growth.

Both foreign and local investors, I believe, have no confidence that South Africa will become a fast growth economy.  They fear for long term deterioration and this is seen in the Rand deterioration as it has.

The position in KwaZulu-Natal is probably even worse, taking into account the perceived high and rising levels of crime and violence in the Province.  We have been discussing those issues for the past day or so.

The resolve of the Premier and the Cabinet to seek foreign investment for small, medium and large business enterprises is welcomed, as it resolved to promote peace and harmony and to get crime and violence under control.

We certainly have a Province in which economic progress could be dynamic, given the right strategy and conditions.  We have the potential to be the focal point in the industrial development of the African subcontinent.  Of that we have no doubt.

Our coastal situation with two major ports is ideal for domestic and international markets.  We have an abundance of water.  We have one of the lowest electricity tariffs in the world.  A well developed infrastructure in commerce, industry, agriculture, roads, rail and air networks.  We have sea, mountains, game parks, unrivalled fauna and flora, incredible potential for the tourism industry.  A very fast growing industry.

To back all of this, our most precious asset of all is a massive reserve of unskilled, semi-skilled and skilled labour.  It is imperative that these skills be developed without delay.  That is education and we must concentrate on that.

What we need to do is put a dynamic action plan in place.  That sounds simple but it is a Herculean task I believe, but provided all sectors work together it can be done.

There are a number of specific issues I would like to address.  The obtaining of foreign investment is fundamental and essential to our success.  While some Malaysian groups have invested large sums recently, I know we have gone out and looked for money, I am not sure why they have invested but they seem to have confidence, the influx of foreign capital hoped for has not happened.

There is the old story of the boy who asked his father, "Daddy, where is South Africa's capital".  He said, "Most is in Switzerland but some is in the UK and the other in the USA".  [LAUGHTER]  It is estimated that as much as R170 billion has left our shores in the past ten years by various means like disinvestment, asset swops and massive fraud.

Then I refer specifically to the footwear industry in KwaZulu-Natal.  Pietermaritzburg was for many years the hub of the footwear industry in South Africa.  There were two tanneries and some 40 plus shoe factories, large and small.  Some producing as little as 200 pairs a day, others as many as 5 000 at the height of the industry and some of them just doing lacing.  The industry was one of the largest employers of labour in the Natal Midlands. I do believe in a free market system and fair competition.

However, in the past three years the Government of the day, with its policies through its Economic Minister, has virtually brought the footwear and textile industries in the region to its knees.  With it perhaps the poultry industry and some others by allowing uncontrolled product dumping into the South African market by allowing, in that way, unfair competition in South Africa.

More than 50% of the factories, that I have talked about have closed or been pruned to the bone.  That together with unrealistic demands from labour has seen at least 50% of the workers lose their jobs.  Many successful enterprises, small enterprises, have been reduced to ashes.  I think that is a tragic situation indeed.

On the brighter side, there are signs of some of these businesses getting back on their feet.  Thanks to the quality of local workmanship being in demand as against the cheap, inferior goods dumped here from other countries.

This aspect must be monitored closely by the watchdog bodies in our Province, in order that this unacceptable destruction of our economic nodes vital to our economy not be repeated.  In addition, our hon Minister of Economic Affairs in KwaZulu-Natal should investigate this and similar problem areas, in the interests of our economy.

We do have in place in the Province other bodies subsidised through the Provincial budget.  They can also give greater assistance and be given teeth.  We must look to give them teeth.  The KMI, the KwaZulu-Natal Marketing Initiative co-operates very well with commerce, industry and regional councils and other interested groups in promoting investment in the region.

The other body I would like to refer to is the REF, the Regional Economic Forum.  The administration of this forum is subsidised to the amount of R1,2 million by the Province.  I regret to say it appears that the REF, this forum, seems to operate in a very secretive way.  I believe it needs to be far more transparent and it needs to correct the perception and ensure that our economic development gets most out of the structure.

The REF, I think, must be more interactive by reporting on a regular basis to the Portfolio Committee and in addition to the main role-players in commerce and industry, large and small.  We cannot go on with this being the child of one political party and that is what has happened, it is the child of the ANC.

The KFC, the KwaZulu Finance and Investment Company, not Kentucky Fried Chicken, has played a vital role over a number of years in being a dynamic creator of employment opportunities, particularly in the small and micro business development.  While much has been said on the restructuring of the KFC, everything possible should be done to grow this development arm of the Province.  It has done an enormous amount in creating jobs, setting up new businesses and taking risks where nobody else would do it.  The banks would not take the risks.  They were prepared to do it and it is absolutely essential that this be done.

Finally, Mr Speaker, we have the people, we have the assets and the will to succeed.  Let us get on with the job.  I fully support the motion as amended.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much from the hon member Mr Edwards.  I now call upon Mr Konigkramer who will have five minutes.

MR A J KONIGKRAMER:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I would like to begin, what I have to say, by making the observation that I do not believe that this is a feel-good motion.  It should not be something that makes us feel good.

In my judgment, if we implement what we say we are going to implement, this is going to be one of the most far-reaching actions we have taken.  I believe it has the potential to really get this Province moving.

I have mentioned in this House before that I think we sometimes forget who actually put us here.  There has been too strong a tendency, I think, to look after those who are fairly well off.  How many times have people actually debated the fate of the unemployed?  We spend too much time in arguing and in improving the conditions of those that are already privileged.

I would suggest to you that since, possibly up to 40% of the people of this Province are unemployed, it is our duty in this House to pay particular attention to them.  They are the poorest of the poor.  I believe those are the people whom we should represent, more so than others.

I believe that this particular resolution does that.  I think for the first time we will be paying attention to job creation in an organised way, and in so doing we are going to look to the plight of these people.  It is not only to the plight of these people that we are looking, it is going to be to improve the conditions of those that are employed.  I think more particularly to those that used to be employed.  As several speakers have pointed out, and I am not going to go into detail, but there has been a tremendous loss of jobs in this Province.  It is escalating at an incredible rate.

The hon Mr Edwards mentioned, for example, the footwear industry.  We have been given figures to suggest that, for example, for every million pairs of shoes that are being dumped in this Province, and it is happening on a daily basis, 1 000 people are losing their jobs.  This sort of thing must be stopped.

The other thing that we tend to forget in this House, very often, is that 60% of the population live in rural areas.  We pay too much attention to those that are already reasonably privileged.  I know that there is a lot of poverty but they are much better off.  These resolutions I believe, these actions will begin to address those people and I believe that is very important.

The next point I wish to make is if you look at our budget.  By far the biggest slice of our budget goes to Education.  We would be irresponsible in the extreme if we continued to spend money on this scale in education and if we did not have concrete plans to make sure that those people, when they go through that education system are not being educated for hopelessness, but that there is actually a chance that they are going to get a job.

I would suggest again, if we continue to invest on this scale in education then it behoves us to ensure that there is at least a chance that the majority of those people will one day get a job.

I do not want to go into detail, I look forward to sharing ideas with those responsible to actually implement this resolution.  I would just like to conclude by making a few observations, a few specific observations.

The first one is with regard to what the hon Mr Edwards referred to in the KFC.  I would like to look at it slightly differently.  One of the greatest assets we have in this Province is the enormous asset base of the KFC.  I would estimate that the buildings which this Government owns are probably worth R1 billion.

That is a lot of money.  We have a golden opportunity to actually use those fruits of ~~apartheid~~ to meaningfully improve the lives, as the hon Dr Mkhize pointed out, of people that voted to improve their lot.  I believe that we should seriously look at selling off those assets.  It would also be an opportunity to get foreign investors to actually buy those investments, that we get the foreign exchange and there would be a golden opportunity to create jobs on a very grand scale.

There are two further points I want to make in conclusion.  The second one, people have alluded to the fact that we have the people.  One of the greatest assets we have in this Province, which can really get the Province moving very quickly, is an extremely large pool of middle management.  Mainly in the Indian community, who have systematically educated themselves over a long period of time.  This in my mind, in order to get industry moving quickly, is probably the biggest asset we have.

Then finally, Mr Speaker, I want to just say with regard to rural development, we have here again a golden opportunity.  If you look carefully at the plans by the Central Government to augment the Vaal system, some of us get hot under the collar about it.  I do not.  I believe it should be done equitably.

Be that as it may, since the Central Government in the next couple of years is going to be spending up to about R4 billion on augmentation schemes in our Province, most of them in the Upper Tugela.  We have an incredible opportunity to capitalise on that massive expenditure, which will obviously benefit the economic heartland of South Africa which is Gauteng.  Much more importantly it is an incredible opportunity to use that for irrigation and on a mass scale, for small scale farmers.  Now that ~~apartheid~~ has gone we have incredible opportunities to export into the European Common Market and there is limitless potential.

So with those few words, Mr Speaker, I would wholeheartedly support the motion.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Konigkramer.  I now call upon ~Inkosi~ Mlaba who has six minutes.

~Inkosi~ Z N MLABA: 

TRANSLATION:  Mr Speaker, I do not believe that there is a person who is not concerned regarding the high rate of unemployment in our Province, which appears to have everything which a person could wish for, and all that the people of this country could wish to have.

I am just grateful regarding the towns, because perhaps there it is slightly better than a lot of the rural areas.  People there in the rural areas, Mr Speaker, are having a very tough time indeed as a result of the fact that there is no work.

We are imploring the Government, in particular the Cabinet, to look long and hard at intensifying development in our areas, because development is what creates job opportunities.  All the departments here may operate at a very high level, but this high level could be caused to drop as a result of a shortage of employment opportunities.  That would cause the levels to drop significantly.

There in our area we saw that development brings job opportunities.  People received job opportunities for a short while.  We saw at the time when water was put in from funds from the RDP job opportunities were created.  At the time when roads were built we also saw job opportunities being created.

We are waiting to benefit from the tourism programme which has started to bear good fruit.  We saw community gardens chasing away poverty, and bringing in money.  We also saw the community in certain areas being taught to stand on its own feet in order that they can make a living for themselves.

All this together with other things which I have not mentioned makes life much better in spite of the fact that there is no employment.  The Government, together with all its departments must do all in its power to ensure that all the things that I have mentioned above, to ensure that they happen and that they are independent in order that they can sustain the community.

The wealth that is found in our areas, the Government should plough back the profit that it receives to those communities from whom it has been received so that that community can be developed, and is also able to live from it.

Mr Speaker, it is very necessary for the factories to be brought close to us.  The factories should not only be in the towns, but they should also be brought to the rural areas.  We understand that there are very many employment opportunities that will be received by our people after our Government has been able to entice investors from countries overseas.

However, our people tell themselves that everything is going to happen like magic.  I believe that the situation of our Province economically is going to be rectified in the not too distant future.  This must be worked on speedily, that is those avenues that are going to create job opportunities.  If that happens it will cause prosperity, peace, and a better work ethic and a better standard of living together with security and safety, and an end to crime.  We are expecting all our areas to be developed and that our people will work in the Province, and refrain from going to work in Johannesburg in another province, because of the fact that there is no work close to us.  In short, I support this motion fully.  Thank you.  T/E

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Siyabonga.  I now wish to call upon Mr Burrows.  Mr Burrows, in terms of the revised time allocations will have five minutes.

MR R M BURROWS:  Thank you very much indeed, Mr Speaker.  From our side we would very gladly support this resolution.

You know, we are a very peculiar country.  If you are a truck driver and you drive trucks in Britain, when you are hungry you pull over to a road cafe and you eat pie and gravy or you eat sausage and mash.  You eat English food.  If you are a truck driver in France you can pull over to a Rautier and you can eat French food and the same in Greece and the same in Pakistan.

In South Africa if you are a truck driver and you are driving from Durban to Johannesburg, you pull over and you eat Kentucky Fried Chicken or Wimpy or Chicken Licken because that is all you can get.  You are confined to going into an Ultra City.

I want to tell you what happens to the truck driver who wants to eat roasted mealies and drink maas?  Where does he get it?  He cannot.  I am simply saying that the Minister of Transport has a role to play in developing employment possibilities in our rural areas, by providing the opportunities for people to sell by the roadside.  To sell mealies, to sell roasted meat, to sell milk and cold drinks.

We have developed a society that has said, "No, no, no, you have got to have an Ultra City and an Ultra City has got to look like Texas or it has got to look like California.  It must not look like Africa".  It is very, very, very, peculiar.

When I was member of Parliament for Pinetown they built a beautiful new dam at Inanda, the Inanda Dam.  The newspapers were full of opportunities for tourism and recreational facilities and a hotel.  Nothing has been done.  Nothing.  People were displaced when the dam was built.  They are still displaced.  There has not been a damn thing done.  Ha! Ha! Ha!  Quite frankly the responsibility of the authorities, whether it is Provincial or Local, is to provide an opportunity for employment, not to provide the employment itself.

The hon member Mr Konigkramer has mentioned education, and the importance of education.  In my role I have an opportunity to go and speak at schools fairly frequently and also at business meetings.  I make the point that the statistics at the present moment indicate that of our matriculants of those who pass matric, and in this Province about 64% pass matric, of our matriculants about 10% go into salaried employment.  Actually get salaried jobs, 10%.

So that means most of our matriculants actually do not go into salaried employment.  Why?  Because businesses are looking for people who have been fired from other jobs, who have had previous experience, they are not taking trainees.  We are producing already from our school system people who are not going into salaried employment.

Why are we not teaching entrepreneurship at our schools?  Why are we not telling our children, and I have done this so, you know, do not point fingers at me, but every member should be doing this, going into schools and saying to children, "You will have to leave school and set up your own little business".  Whether it is roasting mealies or whether it is doing this or whether it is doing that, nobody is going to give you a job.  That is something we have got to work on very constructively.

At the end of the day the concept of privatisation, whilst it is a theory, actually has not grabbed hold in this Province.  I was very interested to watch TV last night and see that the Government Garage is going to be privatised.  That is marvellous.  I am very glad about it.  But is it not time that the governing party of this Province, which has privatisation and the free market as its policy, started looking at some of the things that it should not be doing.  Privatising and moving in the direction of SMMEs, small, medium and micro enterprises to take those over.  Why are we having things that this Government is doing, like cleaning services and catering done by Government which should not be done by Government?

Lastly, let me just ask a question, and I asked it of the Portfolio Committee and I will ask it of the Executive.  What happened to the grand announcement of the UMSEBENZI programme, the employment programme that the previous Premier, Dr Mdlalose, and the previous Minister of Finance, Mr Mhlungu announced so grandly in our House?  It disappeared.  It has gone into the ground.

That is the kind of thing we need to bolster, that is why we will support this motion.  We need to focus on these things that we announce grandly, they disappear.  We need to make sure they work and work actively.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Mr Burrows.  I now call upon Mr Rajbansi.  Mr Rajbansi, also in terms of the revised time allocation will have four minutes.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  I am elated when I heard my hon Mr Burrows say that we have only got the Ultra City to look at.  He emphasised SMME.  He emphasised that matriculants are now told, create your own small business.

I want to appeal to the hon Mr Mike Tarr that we must never use a resolution to instruct a Minister, we must say request and when we say request please alter that.  They understand it is an instruction because we are not the Executive.  Please, I suggest that that word be altered.

I heard a radio programme two weeks ago, a very interesting radio programme of a survey that was carried out in most of the informal settlements, throughout the country.  They asked the people, "What do you want first?  Do you want to improve your house or do you want something else?"  There was a unanimous response from those informal settlements, the first priority is work.

We must get this message very clear that the poorest of the poor in our country want work first and other things will follow later on.

I agreed previously with what the hon Mr Konigkramer stated, that the Government structures have done a lot to create SMMEs.  I want to say that I accuse everybody of paying lip service to SMME.

You know, in Chatsworth we have garages operating from outbuildings.  Highly qualified factory trained technicians, Indians and Africans.  I do not take my cars to any Toyota dealer, I take my cars for servicing to backyard mechanics who are as good as any Toyota agent.

AN HON MEMBER:  And your Mercedes-Benz?

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mercedes-Benz.  When the contract expires they will go to the same backyard garages.  What I am pointing out is this, we must ensure that we promote SMMEs.  We must ensure like what has happened in Bombay and New Delhi and other parts of India, we encourage our rural areas.  We must encourage our rural manufacturers, our rural growers to have good marketing outlets in our urban areas.

When I heard this Ultra City.  What are we all doing at Provincial and National level?  We are looking at the ultra casinos.  We are looking at a macro plan that has been manipulated for the ultras.  A disgraceful document was distributed yesterday by Southern Suns.  Here it is.  Southern Suns, with two English directors, have gone to every small pub in our Province asking them to sign contracts for gaming machines.  Long before we set the rules.  This is a disgrace when things are manipulated in the textile industry, in the book industry, every industry you can imagine.  We must hang our head in shame that we are not giving the opportunities to the people who were deprived previously.

Unfortunately there are some people who do not have white faces who are prepared to lend their face to the giants to ensure that the giants still control this country.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon member has about 30 seconds left.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Until such time that we do not level the playing fields we are going to have nothing but frustration.  If you want to have ultra casinos have it so that you have got 30 000 people on the streets and 450 000 mouths where you have taken away the food.  Thank you.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi.  Mrs Loretta Ngcobo, the hon lady has five minutes.

MRS L G NGCOBO:  Thank you.  It is my great pleasure to support the motion before us.  One of the most important problems in our Province today is unemployment.  This problem alone has the potential to make or break this Province.

As far back as 1995 statistics showed that 901 000 people in KwaZulu-Natal were unemployed.  This represented a total of 31,1% of the economically active population.  By all indications this situation has not improved much, if anything, it could have worsened.  Of these figures 40,2% are black Africans and of that figure 41,7% are females.

There is little use perhaps in harping over the long catalogue of many misguided and perhaps not so misguided policies of the past, on our side, which has resulted in this situation.  Policies which entrenched unemployment where it became a means of social control.  This was a major component in a mechanism that bound together ~~apartheid~~ as a policy of the Government.

Economic deprivation became a weapon to subjugate millions of our people.  Things were exacerbated when anti-~~apartheid~~ policies insisted on economic sanctions against the regime and advocated for, "Liberation now, Education later", for our children, as the vanguard of the struggle against ~~apartheid~~.

Today lack of education and lack of skills remain the crippling handicap in talking of unemployment.  The seeds of this malady were inherently there in the violence that ensued in the struggle for freedom, especially in the protracted warring between our political parties in this Province.

As a result of this we have seen the flight of capital from this country and the failure of the hoped for investments from different countries and perhaps from this country as well.  And to this cocktail we had the misfortune to get our new dispensation at the same time as did the countries of Eastern Europe.

Their labour forces have been very active in recovering their own economies, asking for no favours and diligently putting to use their relatively better skills.  In this way they have done anything and everything to attract investments to their own countries, competing with us.  In the meantime our labour force would seem to be unmindful of this.  We have labour unrest and poor productivity in comparison to those white Easterners.

What is very frightening is the insidious effect of this problem of unemployment on other spheres of life, such as the health of the Province through endemic poverty.  It also remains a major cause of the unprecedented levels of crime.  It has bred a culture of venomous jealousy where a lot of the so-called political crimes are often excuses for plain jealousy motivated crimes.

Hard working members of society, in the effort to improve their lot are punished gruesomely or stigmatised as "sell-outs" or political enemies.  It is breeding bitterness and creating a begrudging society.  Indeed it is the cause of a lot of rural and town violence.  In this way it is the cause of the increase of prison inmates.

There are few Government departments that would not benefit immensely, were we to get on top of this problem.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon member has one more minute.

MRS L G NGCOBO:  In one stroke we should save a lot of money in many departments, while improving the lives of our people.  In seeking the cure for this, more and more people in Government and outside Government are recognising self-reliance on the part of our communities.  We are happy to see others recognising this.

We should diligently promote the creation of SMMEs, as others have already said.  We are greatly indebted to our Premier Dr B S Ngubane who, as Minister of Finance, did all he could to dismantle the old Tender Board, which had the effect of excluding large numbers of our poor people from participating economically.  Through his new tender law we should see many small businesses coming up and many more people finding employment.

However, we need to come up with many more innovative ideas.  We need a clear sighted industrial policy to tackle, in the short term, the kind of problems that are causing unemployment. 

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Time is up.

MRS L G NGCOBO:  I plead for your indulgence, sir.  The current Green Paper on employment and standards at the National Parliament, proposes a reduction in working hours and a corresponding increase in overtime rates, in order to discourage the use of overtime and encourage employers to employ additional staff.  Not everyone is agreed as to the desired effects of this idea, but it is better than no idea at all.

I would also suggest, Mr Speaker, that this House should consider job-sharing as a possible practice.  It is being practised in other countries with reasonable results.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you from the hon lady.  I have been a little bit easy.  I hope I will be easy the next time.  I now call upon the hon Ms Belinda Barrett who has five minutes and I hope with no requests for indulgence.

MISS B BARRETT:  Mr Speaker, hon members of the House.  Whilst KwaZulu-Natal is recognised as the pulse of the labour-intensive manufacturing industry in this country, it is these very industries that have shed and continue to shed thousands upon thousands of jobs through an alarming number of factory closures, re-locations to neighbouring states and an escalating threat posed by the unfair dumping of impossibly-priced goods.

If the government of this Province is serious about dealing with our massive unemployment problem, we need to reverse this alarming trend of factory closures, and focus on sustainable job creation.  Yet the very avenue to achieve this goal is balked at by our unions, namely the establishment of an Export Processing Zone in KwaZulu-Natal, and I will try and do justice to my five minute speaking allocation to explain how unfounded union fears actually are - many arguments of which were previously touched on by the mover of this motion, and other speakers.

In simple terms, the argument against the establishment of an Export Processing Zone is that domestic industry will collapse and future job opportunities to local workers will be lost.

Now let us turn to the facts, because the opposite actually occurs.

In summary, international manufacturing giants in the Far East cannot sell all the goods they have the capacity to produce.  The major importers of these goods place a quota on the amount they are prepared to import from the Far East in order to protect their own domestic industry.  Because South Africa is not in a position to compete in the international export trade, we are not affected by export quotas from countries like America and Europe.  Therefore, it is only logical that the Far East would need very little persuasion to set up their factories and produce goods in South Africa for export.

There is no way that an Export Processing Zone in KwaZulu-Natal could threaten domestic industries, because the establishment of an EPZ expressly prohibits the sale of EPZ-manufactured goods to the local market.  All goods produced by foreign concerns in South Africa will be earmarked for export.

In reality, EPZs have the demonstrated potential to provide sustainable job creation on a massive scale.  It will also allow South Africa to invest in the acquisition of competitive capacity in labour intensive rather than capital intensive subsectors within the manufacturing sector.

Our Province of KwaZulu-Natal is ideally placed for the establishment of an Export Processing Zone, with its two major ports and the imminent development of King Shaka International Airport.  In addition, the massive retrenchments in the footwear, textile and clothing industries in the Province, have provided an available pool of semi-skilled and skilled labour.

In conclusion, the range of economic and social benefits that can be gained from establishing an Export Processing Zone in this Province include, to name but a few examples:

-	the creation of new and sustainable job opportunities on a massive scale,
-	investment in training and skills transfers,
-	secondary induced economic growth via the multiplier effect of increased spending patterns of previously unemployed workers,
-	access to new world markets,
-	potential stimulus, but not direct competition, to existing domestic industries through the introduction of world class technologies and management practices, and
-	social stability from reduced unemployment.

Let us put aside our fears, and explore the real opportunities to address the unemployment problems of KwaZulu-Natal.  And let us embrace our unions in this challenge so that we can ensure that misguided beliefs do not stand in the way of progress.  I fully support the motion before us.  Thank you.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you very much, Ms Barrett.  I now call upon Mr Mohlomi who has six minutes.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Thank you, Mr Speaker.  Mr Speaker, I just want to start by referring to the RDP, the Reconstruction and Development Programme.  I know the cynics have called it rumours, disillusionment, disappointments and promises.  That is what they are calling it.  They have declared it dead.  In fact we have heard even in this very same House, some members of this House saying the RDP is a pipe-dream, it is dead and so on.  I think contrary to what people are saying the RDP is very much alive.  It is us who are going to make it work and nobody else.

The first programme of the Reconstruction and Development Programme deals with meeting the basic needs of our people.  The first item there is job creation.  It says that the Government is going to embark on massive public works programmes with the aim of creating at least one million jobs in five years.  That looks very little if you compare it with the levels of unemployment at the present moment, which are something around six million people who are unemployed.

Of course we know that through the multiplier effect which the hon member Ms Barrett has referred to, one million jobs can end up creating another two or three million jobs in the other sectors of the industry, other than just public works.  I think the students of economics will explain that but I have no time to explain it right now.

That brings me to the question of what have we done in this Province in our public works programmes?  In fact Mr Burrows, when he referred to the UMSEBENZI programme, it was as if he was reading my mind because that was what I was asking myself.  What happened to our UMSEBENZI programme?  We were aiming that through that programme, we were going to be able to create some jobs in the Province.  How many jobs did we create?  Are there any figures?  I have not seen any up to now.

Another important component of the RDP is the promotion of SMMEs.  A lot of speakers have referred to the SMMEs and how important they are to our economy.  In fact throughout this debate we have heard time and again ...

MR A RAJBANSI:  INTERJECTION!

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Everybody.  Everybody was referring to the promotion of the SMMEs.  So I am not going to delve into that again.  I think that has been sufficiently covered.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.  The hon speaker is making comments and he is not in his seat.  Could he please return.  Thank you.

MR A RAJBANSI:  I plead guilty, Mr Speaker.  I have been displaced.  [LAUGHTER]

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Well, he is one of the displacees.  We have got a lot in this Province that we have to try and deal with.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you, Mr Rajbansi, for pleading guilty.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  So I am saying that we have dealt with this point about the promotion of SMMEs and how that is going to contribute to the promotion of further economy at large and job creation.  So I am not going to deal with that at the moment.

MR A RAJBANSI:  Mr Speaker, will the hon expert on labour matters take a reasonable question?

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Once I have finished, Mr Speaker, I can do that.  When it comes to the promotion of exports.  We need to promote exports because that is what is going to earn us foreign currency, which we need so desperately in this country with the Rand being what it is.

I think we should caution against promoting EPZs.  The basic foundation of EPZs, the basic thought behind the EPZs is that the only thing that makes us not to be competitive internationally, is that the cost of labour is too high.  You go anywhere they will tell you that.  The EPZs, wherever they have been established, have been aimed at saying we will need to reduce those costs.  We know that in the production process the only valuable cost is the cost of labour.  We cannot do anything about constant costs like machinery, raw materials etcetera.  The only cost that you can change and manipulate will be the cost of labour.  That is the premise on which the concept of EPZ is based.

So it is true.  You can look at where the EPZs have been implemented.  Contrary to what the hon member Ms Barrett says that it is the fear of unions.  The fear of unions is not that the EPZs are going to take jobs and so on and so on.  In fact we know that they can create jobs.  The thing is what about labour standards.  You will find that things like labour laws are not applicable .  There will be no minimum wage in those EPZs.  So we should caution very strongly against that because that will be the best recipe for labour instability in this country, if we take that route.

MR R M BURROWS:  Rather have no jobs than some jobs.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  I am saying that what we need to look at is how do we provide incentives to those industries that are strong enough, that have got a lot of potential, that can be competitive internationally?  How do we provide incentives for them to gear the production towards export?  Of course we need to promote what is being promoted in Durban at the moment at Springfield Park.  Industrial clusters that will ensure economies of scale.

If you bring together a lot of industries that are geared towards the manufacture of the same products we will be able to achieve the economies of scale in that way.  Therefore we will be able to be competitive internationally.  Competitiveness does not lie with EPZs, I argue that very strongly.

The promotion of exports lies with training and education.  It is education and training.  Take countries like Japan and other countries that have been very successful internationally.  We hear that things like calculators are manufactured in the backyards of homes because those people have been trained, they have got skills.  That is what we need in South Africa.  We cannot really promote exports in this country where 80% of our people have got a level of education which is less than Std 5.  What do you think?  What kind of a country are we?  We need to put a lot of money in education and training.  That is where we are going to promote competitiveness in what we produce.

We also need to improve our income distribution either through SMMEs, and of course by uplifting the standard of living of our people.

I would like to take a point that the hon member Mr Tarr raised, who said we do not have enough market in this country.  In fact we have got a market which is being ignored by our economy, in the black people.  Our black people here are not party to the consumption that is generating in this country.  We have got a massive market that we are not utilising in this country.  We need to uplift the standards of living of people.  Therefore those people will be able to buy the goods that we produce and then the economy can grow.  That is how we need to grow the economy first.  Let us look at that market.

Again we have got a big market in our neighbouring countries.  Yes, we know they are poor.  They may not be able to afford.  With our assistance, as we are doing in Mozambique with agriculture and in other countries, those countries can provide a massive market for our products in South Africa, before we even start trying to compete with America, with Britain and so on.  We are about 30 years behind those countries.  Let us look at what we have that we can utilise right now.

So we should focus our attention more and more on uplifting the standards of living of our own people in this country.  Take the issue of electricity for instance.  If you provide electricity to everybody here in this country, people will then start buying electric stoves.  The electrical industry will grow.  The TVs, everything.  But because the wages of our people have been artificially suppressed over the years, because we have been told that what do you want to do with money?  You eat pap.  What do you want to do with money because all you eat is pap.  You can even go to the bush and pick some grass there and eat it.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  The hon member's time is up.

MR T S MOHLOMI:  Oh.  No warning, Mr Speaker.

HON MEMBERS:  Hear! Hear!

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I now wish to call upon Mr Tarr who will conclude the debate in two minutes.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, the support from all the parties in this House for this motion is very gratifying.  Just to respond to Mr Mohlomi, an EPZ is an idea.  I would hope that whatever idea is forthcoming to this committee will be calmly, rationally and logically debated.  That is the background against which I raised the EPZs.

What we need in this Province now is what they had in Malaysia.  A 2020 vision.  They set themselves clearly defined goals for going up to the year 2020.  We need those clearly defined goals here so that when we talk in this House in future we can measure what we have done against our goals, so we stop talking in this House and we can actually do things.

I am grateful that this motion also enjoys the support of the Premier and also the leader of the ANC, Mr Zuma.  I hope with their support and the willing participation of the Portfolio Committee, that we can actually now stop talking and do something.

Members will all have seen that advertisement that the manufacture of a certain brand of running shoe have.  The slogan is, "Just do it".  I hope we can go ahead in that spirit in this House.

Mr Speaker, I had wanted to move that we adopt this motion as a resolution of the House.  We do not have a quorum.  I request that in terms of Rule 80 we delay a decision on this until some appropriate time next week.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  I am delighted that it is the Chief Whip of the governing party who is requesting this delay in taking of the vote.  I hope that the Chief Whip of the second largest party is also watching interestedly of how some of these absentees are going to affect our work as the House.

Nonetheless, I agree that we defer taking a decision on this to some time next week.

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, it is Rule 81, not Rule 80.  I am sorry.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  I therefore defer the decision on this motion until the House sits again next week.

DECISION ON THE MOTION MOVED BY MR TARR - DEFERRED

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  On a point of order, Mr Speaker.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Yes, Mr Bhamjee.

MR Y S BHAMJEE:  I think the hon Mr Rajbansi requested the leader of the House to adjust the word or delete the word "instruct" and to include the word "request".  So I just want to know if that is going to be part of the amendment?

MR M A TARR: (Chief Whip):  Mr Speaker, that amendment is quite acceptable.  I will move that amendment when we put the motion for decision.

THE DEPUTY SPEAKER:  Thank you.  That takes care of that.  We have come to the end of our business today.  This House therefore will be adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.  The House is adjourned until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.  Thank you.  House adjourned.

	HOUSE ADJOURNED AT 16:21 UNTIL
	9:00 ON FRIDAY, 16 MAY 1997


