 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;19 JUNE 1996&#9;&#9;NAME: MRS NONTOBEKO DULI

CASE: EC0236/96 &#9; UMTATA

DAY 2

_________________________________________________________

ON RESUMPTION AT 09:00 :

NONTOBEKO DULI: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Vhana?

MR VHANA: (Duly sworn, states).

MEMBER OF PANEL: Mrs Duli, I would like you to please start with your story, but before you can start with that, could you please tell us about your life, both your lives, when did you get married, how many children do you have, so that we can understand who you are?

MRS DULI: My name is Nontobeko Duli. I come from the Jali family from Khumbo. I met my husband at the beginning of the Seventies, that's when we got married. We have two children, Nolita and Amanda. When I first met with my husband he used to work in the Department of Prisons, that's why he was a policeman. He started working there in 1972. Now in 1976 when the Transkei Defence Force was started, that's the time when the Transkei got its independence. He was in the first group that was trained for the Army. He really loved his job. Such that he became the head of the intelligence section very early in his career.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Who were his colleagues when he was trained in the Army?

MRS DULI: His colleagues were, I can mention the four front ones, Gen Holomisa, Derek Mkwebe, Maj Zwahiba and Titzi 

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Mantanzima. 

&#9;He used to work with very much are in his work, but he was a quiet person. He was also a man of action. He didn't say much, he used to be a very quiet man, but he was a man of action. Even in the Army he portrayed that kind of character and he used to work harmoniously with his colleagues.

&#9;Take an example of this harmony I am talking about. In 1986 or '87, if I am not mistaken, Gen Holomisa was arrested. He was accused of meeting Sandile from Ciskei so that they can betray the service for R250 000,00. 

&#9;Now my husband was arrested at the time by the Selous Scouts who were working here at the time. My husband, at the time, was the fore front one to release Holomisa. It is my husband who formed a committee which was called an Action Committee. The very committee that was active in releasing Holomisa. My husband was leading in that committee. I am just trying to show you here the harmony my husband used to work in.

&#9;This harmony continued until 1980, 1988, I'm sorry. Now the following arrived. Titzi Mantanzima, Gen Holomisa, Derek Mkwebe, Maj Zwahiba and Capt Sobwowa. Then later there was a coup d'etat. At the time Stella Sigcau was the leader of the country. I am not going into details how that happened, but at the time when they did this coup, Stella was the leader of the country.

&#9;Later we heard that there were these trucks in the streets announcing that there has been a coup and there is a new leader. 

&#9;They started now in the government. It was Gen Holomisa who was the leader, below him was my husband. I 

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liked this, because there was this harmony that prevailed. If Gen Holomisa would come to my house he would even come to my bedroom. They would go on with their conversation. I am just trying to show you that if somebody is used and he is a friend in the family, they just come into the house, they don't care where it is. That's how the relationship used to be.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Sorry, Mamma Duli, can I please interrupt you. There will be persons who will be laughing. Can we please not do that, but I won't be able to say don't do that, because it is unnatural, but please, try to give dignity, show dignity to the witness. Thank you. Please, Mamma, go on.

MRS DULI: They used to hide together in a room and talk about their own issues. But my husband traditionally in Xhosa, that's what we usually do, he didn't involve me much in their business conversations. But I was fortunate to get a document which was handwritten by him. I am sure you have that document with you. That document has details on how this coup happened. 

&#9;One of the reasons why they started this coup was the political unrest in the country, that's all in that document that you have. The weakness of that present government at the time and the lack of public protection. According to that document that you have, that I found in my house, written by my husband. The decisions they came to when they were talking about, was just a short period of government, which is not going to be more than six months. Much closeness to how the government is going to be run, administrative and security issues, all political matters should be given to the public, all the black vehicles should UMTATA HEARING&#9;TRC/EASTERN CAPE

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not be used of the government, and it was going to be difficult to leave the government. Those were the decisions that were written in these documents that I found in my house.

&#9;This harmony I was talking about continued. These people were in the government. They used to take overseas trips. Now I am talking about Gen Holomisa and my husband. Things started to change and the tensions started in 1989. &#9;On the 25th of April 1989, I heard that my husband has resigned from the military council. Now on the 26th of April my husband received a letter of suspension from his work. While I was still shocked with this whole situation, something that shocked me most on the 27th of April 1989, the fact that he was arrested. 

&#9;On the morning of his arrest he called the general. At the time I was just next to him. He said to me he was talking about me, asking the general to take care of me. I am there next to him while he was talking about me. The general knows this. But at the time I wasn't aware that he was talking about me, so that I can be taken care of while he will be arrested.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Did he say why he was being arrested? In the letter of suspension are there any details of the reasons of his arrest? 

MRS DULI: He said to me, at the time there were many people who were being arrested and one of them, people like Vanda, Mr Moletsana, and others that I cannot remember now, especially that side of Ghamada and (indistinct). He said to me that he was being connected with these people, because they wanted the government to go back to the people. That's what he said to me. He was then taken by this cousin, he 

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was arrested, but I don't know where he was arrested until much later. I was quite shocked by this. 

&#9;So quickly I went to Gen Holomisa. I said to him, but you have been working so harmoniously together, what happened. He said to me no, Tobsi, you can't know everything. He didn't give me any details, but he assured me that my husband will not be arrested for long. But he just reminded me that the reason why I am still alive is because of my husband. He said to me no, Craig is going to come back, he won't be away for long. 

&#9;But because I was still too shocked by this, I also went to Titzi Mantanzima, also asking him, what happened, what is going on now. Titzi said to me there is a friction now between these two men, such that he even tried to have another meeting with them. That is now the general and my husband. He said he did try to meet with them, to find out what is going on now, why are they not united any more. They each give me reasons. But then he told me now the reasons why my husband was arrested. Apparently he was also connected with the people that I have mentioned before. But I was told no, it won't be long. 

&#9;I tried to get lawyers to get an interdict, because I was not allowed to go and see him. The last time I saw him was on the 27th of April. He used to write letters to me, sending them to me, saying that no, I must endure, he will come back. He has been trying to plead that he must be treated like another human being. All this time trying to, they were trying to reassure me about my husband. 

&#9;I even went to the security at Botha Sigcau, asking why isn't he being charged, I mean it has been a long time now. My husband was never charged, since the 27th of April. He 

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was then released through an interdict on the 18th of December. 

&#9;During this whole time of his arrest, I have been getting certain reports about he is now in hospital. Since I have been married to him he has never been to hospital, he was never a sickly person. He has been perfectly healthy all this time. This is why I was so worried now. I was even asking the securities why is my husband now in hospital. Then I was told that he was suffering from depression, he was dehydrated, things like that. 

&#9;Then my husband got out through an interdict on the 18th of December. Things were starting to be very bad at this time. There were many stories about what is going on. Now the reasons of my husband's arrest, I have mentioned them here in this document. One of them was, is because he was meeting with KD Mananzima, because they wanted to have democracy again, away from the military. 

&#9;The disgrace of being charged by Gen Holomisa and that disgrace was started by my husband. It looks like that was another reason. Again, it was said that it was my husband who caused that there must be an investigation of theft and corruption by the Minister of Agriculture at the time. So this is why now my husband was also arrested. I am not sure how true that was, but he was such a quiet man. 

&#9;When my husband was released on the 18th of December, I received news that he got out against Gen Holomisa's will, such that Gen Holomisa was very angry about this. I also received information about the fact that my husband's life was not safe any more. I went to fetch him from Lusikisiki. He went to Aliwal-North, that is how we parted. That is how he got out of Transkei. He was running away for his life 

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from the Transkei, because his life was in danger. During that whole time he was still a soldier. 

MEMBER OF PANEL: Was the letter of suspension now being withdrawn?

MRS DULI: When he was suspended, he was not suspended as a soldier, he was suspended as a Minister, he was still going to remain a soldier. 

MEMBER OF PANEL: So did he then go to Aliwal-North?

MRS DULI: Yes, he went to Aliwal-North and that is how we parted and then I came back to the Transkei. 

&#9;We met every now and then, but at the time I was not just relaxing. I wasn't happy about the absence of my husband. 

&#9;I went to Botha Sigcau, to Kenneth Lengwebe. I said to him I do not like the fact that my husband is running away from home, I would like the friction between himself and Gen Holomisa to be solved. I asked Kenneth Lengwebe have you forgotten the fact that in the action committee he is the very one who caused the release of Gen Holomisa, why is he now in danger. So Gen Holmisa said to me no, he was going to go with me and meet my husband. But when he came back he didn't tell me any, give me any reports.

&#9;I said to Holomisa no, I don't like this. Even then he didn't give me a straight answer. He said to me no, he doesn't have much knowledge of this. 

&#9;In short, I would like to make this story brief. The week of my husband's death I heard on the 22nd of November, on this particular morning I was on my way to work. I didn't know anything. I just started to check out my child who was writing his/her Std 10 exam. I went to Holy Cross. When I got there there was a car that was surrounded. I could 

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notice that there were soldiers who were patrolling around. When I asked I was told no, it is Duli's matter. I was so shocked. I don't know how I went back home. At the time my child was writing her exams in tears. They kept on giving my child coffee, just to sustain my child. 

&#9;I used to listen to the events over the radio, even the events of this day, where it was announced on the radio. Titzi Mantanzima told the country that they were still negotiating, they said no, they are going to shoot to kill, because my husband is not prepared to come forward. 

&#9;It is now at this time one of the Ghobozi family said Tobsy, you are the only person who can save Craig's life, stand up. Go to Gen Holomisa, ask to speak to Craig, so that Craig can come forward to save his life. Then we can all know what happened between himself and Holomisa. Indeed, I stood up. But there were there soldiers. We didn't get a chance to speak to the general. 

&#9;Instead of meeting the general we were sent to the camp. It was utmost chaos. Even now, even now, even too many people and too much noise still affects me psychologically. It started on that day. 

&#9;On that day I was with my children. To be short, I didn't get a chance to speak to the general. Instead they took Ghobozi and they beat him up. He was on his stomach. It was only Kenneth Mkwebe who helped him. We were put into a car and then we were taken back home. 

&#9;On my way home one of the soldiers tried to console me. He said to me Topsy, don't cry so much, we know Craig's work, he was with this man, today we are really going to find out what is the cause of this friction between the two of them. That consoled me.

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&#9;Then I stayed at home. While I was still at home, there was an announcement on the radio by the general, he was on the stadium. He said Craig has come forward, Craig has surrendered, so he is going to tell us now what he has been doing all this time. I was so relieved, I was thanking God for the fact that he was still alive. I was so happy because now that it was going to forwar, this whole conflict was now going to be exposed. I was also going to know what is going on between these two men.

&#9;While I was still listening over the radio, the general said here is the latest news: Craig, Craig Duli has passed on. That was the last time I heard anything.

&#9;They took me to hospital. I couldn't believe this. Even, it is because I just heard over the radio that he has surrendered and now I was told that he has died. 

&#9;In short, I am told that he was taken out of what is (indistinct) by Kenneth Mkwebe. When it was announced that he has died, Kenneth Mkwebe simply fell, he fainted. I think it was shock. 

&#9;In short, after the death of my husband, there was a lot of chaos for three days. All three days his body would be put over there, people even say that on the third day it was getting decayed now. 

MEMBER OF PANEL: Where was it put?

MRS DULI: My husband's body was put in the camp. It was displayed in the camp.

&#9;Things got very difficult for me, especially the funeral. People who came to the funeral were turned back. All the people who wanted to come to the funeral couldn't come, because they were very scared. 

&#9;Now after my husband has been buried, soldiers arrived 

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at my place to come and fetch his uniform and some of the intelligence documents and other documents and other things, which belonged to the Army. I gave all of that to them. 

&#9;I gave them all the things that they wanted. Then I went to the Botha Sigcau Building. After a while, I went, because I wanted what was his rights. Then I was told there was no package for him.

&#9;Now the rights that I am talking about were his pension and other things that were rightful to him. But I was told that no, I was not going to get anything, but I am just going to get a contribution which was worth R21 000,00. I was told that even the costs of trips overseas were also going to be deducted from the same R21 000,00.

&#9;Now the reason why I am here before you today. After a while, after my husband has died, even the way that my husband died was quite suspicious. I decided to go to Botha Sigcau offices again. I heard that the murder and robbery squad was also involved in taking him out of Botha Sigcau. It was led by Gen Umlau. 

&#9;I gave myself a chance, because I wanted to find out exactly what happened to my husband. Mbulawa told me that Gen Umlau at that time had three policemen with him. I didn't know these other two, but the other was Mr Mbulawa. It was Mr Lee Mliwana, the other one.

&#9;Gen Molawa told me that he didn't feel free to talk to me about this, but it was painful what he saw in the camp. Apparently my husband went to the camp. He was slightly injured, but what Mbulawa saw was that he was told to turn and look this way. He said sit down, I am going to talk to you and tell you why I am doing this. He said I haven't anything against the Transkeians, the only one that I am

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against is this one, and he also knows this. I don't want to be the leader of the country. So they said turn and look that way. That is how he was shot, while he was still pleading and that was the end of him. That happened in the camp.

&#9;What Mbulawa told me is exactly what the post-mortem was. It was exactly. His heart ruptured, his lungs were also ruptured. That is how, that is according to the post-mortem. 

&#9;Now the reason why I am here, before this Commission, is because I feel like my husband should have been taken to the courts of law, so that he can defend himself. Who killed him and why he killed him? What was so secretive, because it was obvious that he was going to disclose the secret. It was now the time for him to say what was the problem with him and his friend, Gen Holomisa. 

&#9;I feel I didn't get all that was rightful to my husband, I didn't get all those, things like pensions and all the other money that was rightful to him. I also feel that I do qualify to receive the widow's pension fund, which my husband used to contribute to.

MEMBER OF PANEL: And the fourth one? The last page. 

MRS DULI: Can you also please help me so that I can have a dignified funeral for my husband and a tombstone.

MEMBER OF PANEL: You said there was no court case after the death of your husband, after he died so brutally?

MRS DULI: No, there was no court case.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Again, the amount that you said you received was R25 000,00 only?

MRS DULI: Yes, R21 000,00. 

MEMBER OF PANEL: We think that the gentleman who can also UMTATA HEARING&#9;TRC/EASTERN CAPE

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tell us, because you were also there in the Botha Sigcau offices, perhaps you can also tell us what happened. We also want to thank you for the dignity you have shown and the respect that you have shown during the time that the witness has been testifying. Thank you.

&#9;Mr Vhana, could you please tell us who you are and on which rank were you at the time in the Army and how you met Craig Duli and your relationship with Duly. Before you give us the details of what happened in the Botha Sigcau offices.

MR VHANA: With the permission of the Commission, I am Samuel Vhana, I am from Mphebatho(?). I was never a soldier. I used to work in the Transkei Development Corporation. There was a friction between the TDC and myself, because of certain situations at work. Then I was expelled from work, through what was called a disciplinary action. When I complained about this, it was all in vain. &#9;In short, in my efforts trying to go up and down, trying to go back to work, I asked Gen Holomisa - in fact he was trying to ask everyone he said anyone who knows anything about corruption must come forward. So I did, I had my documents. Documents which exposed all this corruption that was happening in this corporation. It looked like nobody had taken care of this. They simply ignored it. It looked like the military government was not looking for the truth, they just took over the government, because they wanted to do away with the corruption. 

&#9;That is when I met Col Craig Duli. He said my case must started over again, but then it was found that I was never guilty right from the very first. Again, I met Lieut Craig Duli. I asked him a lot of questions, especially about them, but it looked like there was a certain 

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misunderstanding. He did say to me please, Madiba - that is my clan name - don't go on investigating these things, I am going to fix all this; I am going to talk with these other men, then we will fix everything for you.

&#9;By fixing this, he meant bringing democracy back to the people. It is because I said to him the reason why you took over the government from Stella Sigcau is because you said it is because Stella Sigcau said to you from the self-defence department, you were corrupt. The other reason why you took Stella Sigcau from the government is because the Pondos were killed by Lieut-Colo Vakashiyo - who is dead now - together with his brother. They were on the house, on the roof the house.

&#9;During that time there was a friction between the Pondos of one village and the other village. 

MEMBER OF PANEL: Sorry, sorry, a little slower, Madiba. Let's go back to the issue at hand. What we are talking about today is Craig Duli. Let's talk about the day, this particular day you were all at Botha Sigcau. When he was getting out of Botha Sigcau did you see him alive? This is the human rights violation we are trying to investigate here today. Have you any evidence connected to the human rights violation of Craig, please Madiba, let's go back to the issue at hand.

MR VHANA: With your permission, Commission, in the morning of the 22nd of November 1990, I was entering Botha Sigcau with Lieut-Col Duli and the late Davis. Lieut Craig Duli's injuries were on the left eye.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Sorry, were you together when you were going into Botha Sigcau? Were you preparing to do the coup?

MR VHANA: That's correct. At the time we were going to do 

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the coup, as the military government. When we got in ...

CHAIRPERSON: Please audience, please. Sometimes people give certain evidence that you don't quite like, but when they are here before the Commission they have all the rights to say freely what they need to say. Now our job is to take that evidence, investigate it and then get to the truth about it. 

&#9;Yesterday you behaved yourselves so well. I was also hoping that you were going to do the same today. It may happen that later today that we might hear - sometimes you would want to laugh about something a person is saying. Could you please now try to control yourself. Give him a chance to finish off his statement, and that the person who is leading the witness, please guide the witness into the real issue at hand. Thank you.

&#9;Please continue, Sir.

MR VHANA: It is now on the third occasion, around three pm, when I said stop, I was shouting, trying to stop the shooting that was happening at the time. On this occasion now it stopped, there was this fire. Somebody from outside asked who are you. I said I am Samuel Vhana. I was then called. So then I went. It was Lieut-Col Derek Mkwebe. 

&#9;When I got closer I was asked where is this Col Craig Duli. I said here is inside, in the toilet. I was told okay, I must stand where I was, it was next to the lifts. Lieut Craig Duli approached me. He was with two soldiers. Now that was because he was limping, he was injured. He got shot on the right thigh. When we got the lifts, we got in and we went down. On our way out of the lifts, I was on the front. I took a couple of steps and then I waited for him again, because he was limping. We parted. Just when were 

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about to get to the steps outside, then I was led into the boot of another car. Then we went to the camp.

&#9;That's when I was locked up. I saw Col Craig Duli on the following day, where there was a media. That time Lieut Craig Duli was already dead. 

MEMBER OF PANEL: Now the injury you only know about on Col Duli is only the one on his leg?

MR VHANA: When we were getting out of Bordersdal, he was only injured on the left eye and he was also injured on the thigh of his right leg, and this wound on the right leg was a bullet shot. The injury of the eye, he was injured by a tube from the mortar. 

MEMBER OF PANEL: Sir, is that the end of your story according to the injuries of Craig Duli?

MR VHANA: Yes, Sir.

MEMBER OF PANEL: I hand over to you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Topsi, I would like to ask you, this Genl Mbulava you are talking about, is he the one who died later?

MRS DULI: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: When he was telling you this, did he say there was any investigation so that he can find out who are these people who shot your husband?

MRS DULI: He never said to me there was any investigation that he was doing.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any investigation that you think that should have happened by the police or even by the lieutenant-generals?

MRS DULI: No, I didn't even ask for any investigations.

CHAIRPERSON: But Genl Mbulava died during the time when the military government was even over. You never even went back to Gen Mbulava or you didn't even have trust in the 

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government?

MRS DULI: No, I didn't go back to him because one of the things that hurt me the most was people were very afraid to associate themselves with this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Pumpla Gobodo?

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Chairperson. Dobsi, I would like to ask you about your children. How old are they?

MRS DULI: Our first-born was born in 1981, the other one is 1974.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: How are they, how are they affected by the death of their father?

MRS DULI: It really affected them. Especially the one who was writing the exams at the time. They used to be quite scared, especially when there would be thunder storms. During this period we were told that we were going to be bombed. Now this thought used to make them very scared, it really affected them.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I remember that you also told us that when you see a crowd of people, you also get scared, remembering the way your husband died. It looks like you also were affected by his death.

MRS DULI: Yes, that is correct.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: I am going to ask you now about how your husband came back to the Transkei after going to Aliwal North. Firstly, I would like to ask you when he was in Aliwal North, who was he staying with?

MRS DULI: Like I have said before, my husband was a real traditional Xhosa man. He didn't discuss most of his things with his wife. He didn't stay too long in Aliwal-North. We only left him in Aliwal North. He met William Mbotoli and 

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they left together. The time that I would meet them was at East London. That's where the two of us used to meet. In East London he used to stay with Mbotoli. I used to meet him alone. I don't really know where he used to stay. We used to meet at a hotel. Only when he had called me.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Which hotel was this?

MRS DULI: I think it was Osner.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Can you also tell the occasions that you met him, after he left in 1990 and then he came back and then he went to Aliwal North. How many times did you meet him?

MRS DULI: Maybe once a month or so.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Could you just tell us, how frequently you used to meet him.

MRS DULI: We used to meet approximately three times a month.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: And this whole time did you used to meet him with Mbotoli?

MRS DULI: At the times that I used to meet him, he would be alone and there would be another one, another young man that he used to call Nfiso, but he was never with Mbotoli.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: But he did say to you that he was staying with Mbotoli?

MRS DULI: No, but I am not sure that he was there with Mbotoli, but I know that he used to spend a lot of his time with Mbotoli.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: According to what your husband said, seeing that you didn't meet quite a lot and he didn't say much of what he was doing to you, as Xhosa traditional men, didn't you ever ask him why he was staying away from home and what he was doing away from home?

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MRS DULI: I only used to ask him why, when is hecoming back, because the kind of life that he was leading was not healthy. He used to tell me that no, he would be coming back, he is still trying to fix some things and he is still trying to negotiate with the soldiers, but he doesn't want to go back to jail as he had before.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you, Dobsi. Now Madiba, I just want to ask you one question. You mentioned somebody called Davis. Would you please tell us who is Davis?

MR VHANA: Boetie Davis was a builder. He is stationed at Machau at (indistinct). He used to be a South African Defence Force soldier. But he was stationed at Machau.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Sorry, there was just one last question. How did you meet Davis?

MR VHANA: Machau and Kamangu are next to each other, this is how we knew each other. But now he came to me when I was with Craig Duli, the time we were in Queenstown, that's how I met him. He then lived with the two of us, that is myself and Craig Duli at Kulimkana.

MS GOBODO-MADIKIZELA: Thank you very much for that explanation.

CHAIRPERSON: Ntsiki Sandi?

ADV SANDI: My first question is directed to Mrs Duli. Mrs Duli, you said at the beginning, among the other things that happened, Maj-Genl Holomisa was arrested. He was arrested by the Selous Scouts. Could you please tell the Commission in short, according to your knowledge or according how you heard these things from your husband, what was the role of the Selous Scouts in the Transkei?

MRS DULI: Honestly, I don't know what is the role of the Selous Scouts in the Transkei, except the fact that they 

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were in high positions in the Army at the time.

ADV SANDI: Perhaps let me rephrase my questions. Who were the Selous Scouts, where were they from?

MRS DULI: According to my knowledge, the Selous Scouts were soldiers from Rhodesia. One of them was Ray Daley and others.

ADV SANDI: If I can go to another question. You said another day at home you found some documents. Documents have reasons. Did the documents have reasons why the soldiers wanted to take over the government. Did you tell your husband that you had found these documents at home, also telling him what was the content of the documents? And if you did, what did he say? Thank you.

MRS DULI: I found this document among my husband's clothes already after his death.

ADV SANDI: Do you still have other documents that you found at home? Documents pertaining to the conditions in the Transkei at the time?

MRS DULI: Yes, there are other documents that I found among my husband's belongings.

ADV SANDI: When you say amongst your request that you want the Commission to please investigate everything about this matter, are you ready to give over those documents to the investigating committee so that it can be investigated?

MRS DULI: Yes, I am ready to give over the documents.

ADV SANDI: You said your husband has been away from home for quite a while, because his life was in danger. During the times when you used to live with him in Aliwal North, did you say it was Aliwal North?

MRS DULI: And East London.

MR SANDI: Did he tell you how his life was at the time or UMTATA HEARING&#9;TRC/EASTERN CAPE

 

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did you ever ask him how he was living at the time while he was in exile, if I can use that word?

MRS DULI: He would only touch a little on this. He once told me that there was an attack at Stutterheim, they were attacked. He was also telling me that there were people hunting him, they were trying to bring him back by force to the Transkei.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mrs Duli, for answering this question. I only have one or two questions for Mr Vhana. At the beginning Mr Vhana you said that you are not a soldier and you are not trained by the military force. Is that so, Mr Vhana?

MR VHANA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

ADV SANDI: You said on this 22nd day of November 1990, you went to the Botha Sigcau building, it was yourself, Mr Davis and Mr Duli. You had the intentions of taking over the government from the military council of the Transkei.

MR VHANA: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

ADV SANDI: In short, could you please tell us were there any arrangements made before you entered the Bordersdal building with the intentions of taking over the government? Surely, Mr Vhana you know this clearly, but taking over a government, especially a military government, is no easy task. Could you please tell the Commission if there were any preparations that you personally were involved in when they were trying to plan this step of the 22nd of November?

MR VHANA: Yes, Sir, that is correct. This coup of the military government was planned by the Transkeian soldiers. One of them was Titzi Mantanzima, Col Mkwebe, Col Zwahiba, Col Begebu, Capt Sofotyi and Capt Molelekaba and Col Bikibo, that I nearly forgot. Begebu, Mantanzima, Mwekbe, Zwahiba,

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uli, Sofotyi and Umkalali, the last one is Xaba. 

ADV SANDI: Among other things that were published in the newspapers, there is another factor has been coming up. It is that the government that was in power at the time, also took part in this coup. Do you have anything to say about that? That involvement of the South African government?

MR VHANA: No, I don't have any details according to the South African government's involvement, because I was never in the negotiating table with the members of the South African Government at that time. If they had any involvement, I can never say no to that, but in September 1990, Duli said to me that he was going to go with me. He has been called in Tanzania, but unfortunately I didn't have an international passport at that time. He then left with Mr M Somdaka to Tanzania. When they came back they called me. I was in Johannesburg at the time. So they told me that they are back, I must meet him, Craig Duli. That is now when he told me that that group - he didn't tell me which group that was ... (END OF TAPE 1 - SIDE B).

&#9;... and personnel. But I said to Craig Duli no, they must not give me these things because we are not going to fight anyone there, we are just going to take Holomisa off the government. There was no reason for any personnel or firearms or uniform for this. These were just too much. ADV SANDI: It is the same period that the high officials of the Transkeian government came to East London. That was when you were on your way to Tholomga, just under the bridge, that is where they used to meet. 

MR VHANA: I used to just lie somewhere at a distance. At the time I used just a small machine of this size. Duli used to have something that he used to think that it looked 

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like a ball-point pen in his pocket. When you are talking to him, from two metres away I would be able to record what you are saying, listen to you. 

&#9;Now in another occasion, in other occasions they would meet in Queenstown, that is where he used to meet with Sofoke, Mkwebi and Begebo. 

ADV SANDI: Before I conclude, Mr Vhana, I am going to ask you the last question. I am sure Mr Vhana, that you know, you know that when you meet and you as a group, make a decision to do a coup d'etat, surely there would be some resistance from the other side. In other words, they would of course be against what you are trying to do, meaning that there would be some kind of violence. Did you ever discuss about if there would be that kind of violence, how would you manage with that? How would you counter that violence or that resistance?

MR VHANA: Mr Chairman, I asked him what are we going to do if there is a problem. What he said was no, there would not be any problem, because I am always with you, I am always with you when we have to meet, with this recording machine; have you forgotten? When we get there we are going to meet with the soldiers and we are going to go to Bordersdal together with the soldiers and we are going to take over the government. We never expected any kind of resistance. We never expected any kind of resistance at all.

ADV SANDI: Lastly, Mr Vhana, I am sure with your presence here you are willing to co-operate with the investigation committee when it is trying to investigate about this matter. Am I right about that?

MR VHANA: Yes, you are right, I am prepared to co-operate.

There is one more point that I would like to raise. Even 

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though I have mentioned this again in the courts of law, before the Judge, I did ask for forgiveness on behalf of the late Craig and other men that were with me. I ask for forgiveness from our ancestors. Even for those heroes who fell on that day, even on the same day. I didn't want this to happen. Even as I didn't want this to happen that all those fallen heroes should fall because of bullets that came from us. We did not kill anyone, because we were told not to kill anyone. Now what was puzzling to me was, to be given firearms from Yolo, but I didn't know what to do with these firearms but at the time we didn't even have a chance to ask questions. But we were just told okay, we will be following these men in front of us. 

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Vhana and Mrs Duli.

MRS DULI: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yasmin Sooka?

MS SOOKA: I have just two questions. Surely when you - do you want to put on the head-phones or can you understand me?

MR VHANA: Yes, I can understand you.

MS SOOKA: Surely when you planned this coup, there must have been some expectation that there would be some violence. That is the first question I want to ask you. The second one is, maybe I misunderstood in the translation, but you said Gen Holomisa would be taken out. What exactly did - was intended by that?

MR VHANA: As I have indicated, Craig Duli told us at that we would not meet with any resistance. So it would have been impossible for any form of violence to erupt on that day. This is what Craig Duli told us. 

&#9;Your second question, Mamma, what I mean by saying taking Gen Holomisa out, I mean he was to be replaced 

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together with his military council by an interim structure which would have been headed by the Chief Justice together with nine traditional leaders, who would govern Transkei until such time that elections were held, and the government returned to the people of Transkei. This is what I meant. This is what I mean. 

MS SOOKA: Surely you did not expect that Gen Holomisa would not put up some resistance to that?

MR VHANA: Definitely, yes, Mamma. In view of the fact that Craig Duli together with the top brass of the members of the Defence Force, we never expected any form of resistance. Particularly also that his right-hand man Mulelokaba who was acting as his private secretary, was too involved in the planning of the take-over.

MS SOOKA: What went wrong then, and why was there resistance?

MR VHANA: I may guess that Craig Duli, we were let down, we were betrayed at the eleventh hour, because Lieut-Col Nzwyba met us at three o'clock in the morning at the airwing. He asked a question. So, I quote, "so you have arrived, brother Craig". In Xhosa (quotes in Xhosa).

MS SOOKA: You know that there are allegations that the South African Defence Force was involved in that. Did you have any knowledge of that?

MR VHANA: I did not have any knowledge thereof, although I say today, I cannot deny that, because I never had any occasion to see, sit and discuss with any of the members, of the South African Government. Be that as it may, I cannot deny that one fact. I can only take it as one of the secrets that Craig decided to keep away from me.

MS SOOKA: One last question. You talked about an 

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investigation afterwards. Who carried that out? You talked about the court procedure where you apologized. What was that about?

MR VHANA: It was, we were brought before the Supreme Court and found guilty.

MS SOOKA: Thank you. Could I ask Mrs Duli a question, please. On the last page of your statement, you make mention that your husband had external injuries at the back. What court procedure was that about?

MRS DULI: Those were the court proceedings in connection with the coup.

MS SOOKA: Thank you.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you, thank you, Mr Chair. Just for the sake of clarity for the Commission. You have referred a lot to Gen Holomisa. Are you referring to the one who is now a member of Parliament?

MRS DULI: Yes.

MS MKHIZE: Maybe also just to clarify the Commission's understanding. You said with a lot of emotions that your late husband was very close to Gen Holomisa and you made mention to the fact that on the day when he was going to be arrested, he phoned him, asking him to look after you. 

MRS DULI: That is true.

MS MKHIZE: Having said all that, can you maybe enlighten the Commission as to any type of conversation that emanated between you and Gen Holomisa after the death of your husband, if any?

MRS DULI: I think it was in 1992, after the death of my husband, when Gen Holomisa came to my house. And he stated clearly that he never wanted my husband to die, because he saved his life. And he further said that if I have any 

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problems I must come to his office. 

MS MKHIZE: Your opening statement which you made here, gives the Commission an impression that you are looking for clarity as to what exactly happened. Did you make use of the opportunity when you met, to maybe ask him as one of the people who were close to you, as to what exactly might have happened, meaning around the actual death of your husband?

MRS DULI: I never asked him what actually happened. But he stated that he never wanted him dead. 

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have only three questions. I would just like to ask one question. You said Craig saw somebody when he was ordered to turn his back. Do you have any knowledge of those people who are the people who shot him?

MRS DULI: I have no idea. He didn't say anything further because he was emotional and he said he was afraid to lose his job, so I couldn't go further and ask him questions. I just thanked him. 

MEMBER OF PANEL: It is very important for us to know who was this person who saw him or who heard the order that the late should turn his back, who is this officer who saw him when he was ordered to turn his back.

MRS DULI: I have already explained to say the officer whom I talked to, is the late Mr, the Gen Bolowa.

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you. My last question is directed to Madiba. According to your knowledge you informed that the only thing that you knew about the association between the South African Defence Force and the coup was Boetie Davids who was also in the South African Defence Force. Could you please explain to us why did you choose to work with him if you say there was no relationship between the 

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South African Defence Force and also, when you say you didn' intend to cause any violence?

MR VHANA: During this period Boetie Davids was no longer a South African Defence Force officer. He was a traitor, because he had a Britain contractor. He was being together with another contractor here at Ndobo and Nocha. We didn't use him because he was a member of the Defence Force of South Africa. I want to correct and highlight this. Again, during the time when he visited Craig Duli, he came here to give us money, because we lived as beggars. Our wives used to support us. We used to sleep outside in the open. During this day we went to buy some food from Mrs Njoli's place, we were going to have our lunch. It was on the day of the 18th January 1990, it was in Stutterheim. These Transkei Defence Force came to assault us, to attack us. They came on the day when Boetie Davis was here. We were waiting to have our meal and we were at Mrs Njoli's place where the food was prepared. That's when the TDF attacked us. During this time Davis was also here. He realised that if he can go back to Nocha he could be arrested or he could be eliminated. That is why he preferred to stay with us in Stutterheim. We were staying in the car, in my car. 

MEMBER OF PANEL: Thank you very much. How - can you explain how was this place supported, this incident?

MR VHANA: Although we didn't ask views from the people, I can say our idea was being supported.

CHAIRPERSON: Order, please!

MR VHANA: There are many people who could not support any coup d'etat, by Gen George Meiring. Even today nobody can openly say he supports any coup d'etat. That's why I can say the majority of the people supported what we were doing. UMTATA HEARING&#9;TRC EASTERN CAPE

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The people wanted to have elections, even today if Gen George Meiring can dethrone Pres Mandela there would be people who would be objecting to that, because they would be objecting to the military rule, because they would be fighting against unilateral rule.

CHAIRPERSON: Let us thank you very much, Mrs Duli and Mr Vhana. This account has taken a long time this morning. We have taken 20 minutes for each witness. For this case we have taken the time that should have been allotted to three witnesses. But then the Chair have deliberately allowed it to go on because I thought that you should have ample time to present your story.

&#9;We thank you very much for a clear and proper explanation and evidence which was presented today. We also thank you for your request and you promised that you will try to send all the requests to the investigation unit, so that we can find out who killed your husband, Mrs Duli. We also request you that you should give as much information as you have, especially the information which is related to your second request in connection with the pension fund and all that information we would like to have, so that you can make use of it. So that we can also facilitate the investigations. 

&#9;As I have already said, we are behind schedule. We are going to have a break for tea now.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS FOR TEA

 

 

 

 

 

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