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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;&#9;06.08.96 SEBOKENG

CASE NUMBER:&#9;1047&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;NAME: EMMA KHESWA

COMMISSIONER: While Mrs Kheswa is coming forward I would like to welcome a few individuals ... Kheswa. He has already been talked, his name has been mentioned several times today already. But you are going to talk as a mother who has lost a son and perhaps also talk about some of the things that he is accused of. Before I hand over to Dr Russell Ali who is going to be helping you in telling your story, can you please stand to take the oath. 

MRS EMMA KHESWA (s.s.):

DR ALI: Good morning Mrs Kheswa. You are going to testify in Southern Sotho. Is that correct?

MRS EMMA KHESWA: I am going to testify in Sotho and you can hear me clearly. I am listening to you clearly sir. 

DR ALI: Thanks Mrs Kheswa. You are coming to speak to us about your son Victor and what happened to him. I am going to ask you now to go through your statement for the Commission. Thank you. 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: Can I continue, sir?

DR ALI: Yes Mrs Kheswa. 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: I am Khetise Victor Kheswa's mother. He was staying at Zone 7. At 11051. I have four children. On the 26th December in 1990, the previous day it was Christmas. That was on the 26th. Street Committee members visited my house and they said they were looking for Victor. They alleged that Victor had stabbed someone with a knife at

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the shops at Zone 7. I denied it and I told them that Victor was indoors and he was asleep during that day. They told me that Victor had stabbed somebody at the shops. I told them that even though it was like that I will convey the message to him that he should go see the Street Committee. When Victor came back I told him that he was wanted by the Street Committee and he asked me as to why they were looking for him because he never went out during Christmas time. Then he said he would go there because if he doesn't go there they will think that he was lying. Then he went to see the Street Committee members. When he got there they told him that they had already found the culprit and that that same culprit who was playing with a certain friend had stabbed him with a little knife from the nail cutter or the nail clipper. They said even then they were not fighting but they were playing. Then when he came back he told me that they said he wasn't the one but they did find the culprit. A few days lapsed, then he told me that they were looking for him once more. The Street Committee members wanted to see him and at that time I was preparing myself to go to Potchefstroom and I went to Potchefstroom. I left him, he was on his way to the Street Committee members. When he went to them I wasn't there, I was already in Potchefstroom and when I came back from Potchefstroom, I think it was at about ten o'clock, I discovered that my yard was full of police as well as police caspirs. When I got there I was told that Khetise had been shot and they didn't even know whether he was still alive. They said I must also pack my things and run away. I asked them that they should stay with me. I wanted them to protect me to keep security in my yard and they said they would not be able to

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stay there but they would keep an eye on me and they went away. We stayed the whole night at my place. I was together with my other children. Then on the following day we went to the hospital. We got him, he was admitted at the hospital. He remained there at the hospital. He said he had only been given Panados but he was never formally admitted. They discharged him at a later stage without having actually formally admitted him. I asked him why wasn't he admitted and put into a ward. Then he said they said they couldn't admit him because he was an IFP member. I took him from the hospital. I was with some other youths who were driving the car and we took him in the car and I realised that he hadn't gotten any better. We went to Dr Gouvadia in Pretoria. That was Vanderbijl Park, to Dr Gouvadia. He said I must take him back to hospital. I told him that I will not be able to take him to the hospital. I left something out. After they had just shot him according to him he said he pretended to be dead. Immediately after they shot him he pretended to be dead. He just lay there and he was taken from that spot thinking that he had died already. They put him in the boot of the car. When they put him in the boot of the car they drove off with him in the boot. They went to Edenside in the outskirts of Edenside. There were four of them. It was Khetise, Temba, Vuzi as well as Lucky. Because they thought he was dead they put him in the boot and the other ones were put on top of him. They drove off in that car. That was Khetise's car. He says as the car was driving he told Temba that he is not dead and he directed Temba to try and open the boot from the inside because in a Cortina you can actually open the boot from the inside. He showed him a pin that he must

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try to pull so that they may be able to get out of the boot. Temba did pull this pin out in the boot. Then he was directed to hold it so that the boot doesn't get open and wherever the car stops they will see what to do. As they were going to the outskirts of Edenside when they were thinking that the boot was closed as they had closed it before they doused the car with the petrol whilst all of us were inside. After dousing the car with petrol just before they wanted to set it alight they opened the boot. Temba and Vuzi were handcuffed. They went out of the boot and ran away. These other culprits were running after Temba and they thought he was dead. They left him inside the boot. Then he got out and one of them who was there tried to fight with him but he hit him with the fists and he managed to run away thereafter. He went to his aunt's place. When he got to his aunt's place he told her that he had been shot and the aunt should phone my neighbours because he knew that I was not at home, I had gone to Potchefstroom. When she decided to phone the neighbours my neighbours, because I was not there and the neighbours got to the aunt's place and Zande's mother as well as the aunt took him to the hospital. That is where he was admitted until he got discharged. On the day that he was discharged I took him to Boksburg hospital. Before I took him to Boksburg hospital I realised that I will not be able to get to Boksburg with a sick person. Then I took him to another doctor in Mark Park. He was given an injection as well as tablets. When we got to Boksburg the doctor told me that I could be arrested because I had stayed with a person and the wound had gotten septic. They said his insides were full of pus and he had bled internally. I showed him a card that he was at the

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Sebokeng hospital but they discharged him despite the fact that he was as sick as he was. They said he could go home. As we were still having this discussion one of the boys died. The name of that boy was Christopher. It was alleged that my son Khetise had killed Christopher. At the night vigil of Christopher, that was on the 12th January in 1991, people were killed in that night vigil. At that time Khetise was still not there, he was at the Boksburg hospital. It was alleged that he is the one who had killed Christopher. Even the police files alleged that he was the one who had actually killed the people who were at the night vigil but he was not there, he was at the hospital. But I had actually told myself that if these people get arrested then I would be relieved because they would say that he was not there, he was at the hospital but those who gave testimony they said they didn't know him. They said they had never seen him. When they were asked as to whether they knew Khetise they denied knowing him. They even asked him how come you didn't know him or you don't know him because he was so famous. But they insisted that he was the one. Some people were killed at Eric's Tavern. He was in prison at that time. They said he is the one who killed the people at Eric's Tavern. He was paying revenge. Now which was apparent that when most of those things were done there was testimony that he was not there but still despite that fact he was accused of working with police and he was going around at night killing people together with the police in the location because he never got arrested according to them. Now I have this request. I want those police who worked with Khetise, I want them to come forward so that I may know as to why they were doing all those things because

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according to me I don't know what time he did those things or what time he colluded with the police because it was alleged that he was working with the police. I request an inquest. I want the police who are alleged to have worked with him to come forward. When we were driving in the car with these other youths, when we went to fetch him at the hospital they got a gun inside the car. We were all arrested. As we got arrested that case went on and I had gone at that time and I heard that he had been shot at the police station at Vanderbijl Park. I saw it in the newspapers that the police who were working with him had killed him because they were scared that he was going to reveal the truth. He was going to divulge the secrets and they owed him quite a lot of money and they decided to kill him. Now I want all those things, all those allegations to be investigated as to this police who were working with him, which ones are these police. I want them to be identified as well as the police who killed him. I want to know why did they kill him. I want to know what was he owing them that made them kill him. I would appreciate it if this Commission would do me this favour that there should be a further investigation as to when he was killing the people with the police, where were they meeting and what were the reasons for killing the people and when were they killing these people and who are these police with whom he was killing the people. And I would like them to further tell me, the very same police, as to why were they using him in those killings. Because today my life has changed so drastically. As from that time my life is very difficult, it is very tough. Because many of the times it has been alleged that I have always been with him, giving him hand

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grenades to kill people at night, together with the police. Now I want these police to come forward. I want these police to say, to tell the Commission as to why they did those things. Because it even appears in newspapers. The newspapers are alleging - I do have the newspapers - I went to the police station to make statements. Now I want to know why the police took these newspapers and why they did all that they did. 

DR ALI: Mrs Kheswa are you going to continue or do you want to stop at this point? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: That is where I will end. 

DR ALI: Thank you Mrs Kheswa. I will just give you a little time just to get your thoughts back together again and there are just a few questions that I would like to ask you if you don't mind. Mrs Kheswa I am sure that it must be very difficult for you as a mother to be here speaking about your son, especially given all the allegations that have been made against your son. But I would just like to ask you a few questions because I think it will help us to try and get a picture of what was happening. In your statement you start out where you say that your life changed on the 26th December 1990 when your late son Victor was summoned to a meeting of a Street Commission in which he had to appear before a peoples court. I just want to actually go back a little bit because - is it true that actually before December 1990 your son had already been accused of being involved in the shooting of a youth and that in fact he had appeared in court and was out on bail. That was as far back as March 1990 already. Is that true? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: I still say he came to me, he told me that when he was coming back from school but it was discovered

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that he was not guilty. He had not done anything. 

DR ALI: Now before this incident which you described where your son was asked to appear in front of the peoples court, it is also claimed that your son was actually involved in activities with a gang. Do you have any knowledge of this, of your son being involved with any gang? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: That is as far as they allege because his friends never came to me. I have never spoken to them and I have never seen them doing anything. 

DR ALI: Mrs Kheswa, what I am going to just share with you is the information which we got and some of the research which was conducted through the Commission. This is not intended as an accusation in any way or seeing anybody as guilty. It is just the information which we received while doing research and I think it is important that you hear this so that you can express your own views on this. It is further claimed that because of these alleged gang activities which your son and a few others were involved in, that there was an attempt by members of the community to start let's call an anti crime campaign and that part of the reason why your son was actually summoned to this court was to confront him on these alleged criminal activities which involved shootings and killings and thefts and that was the background to your son actually being called to appear before a peoples court. Do you want to say anything about that? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: In that commission of the Street Committee he went and all the allegations or the accusations they had against him, it was discovered that there was absolutely no testimony to back up their allegations. Nobody actually gave testimony that he had actually done those things. 

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DR ALI: Now according to the account that we have heard it was following this incident where he appeared in front of the peoples court where there was an altercation, he was assaulted, shot apparently with his own gun. It was then that your son took refuge at Kwamadale hostel and it is alleged that he then became either a member or a supporter of Inkatha. Do you know if your son ever became a member or a supporter? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: We moved from the location because we were running away from the threats that my house was going to be burned. When I got to Kwamadale he had gone to help the Inkatha according to their allegations but it was not like that. We ran away from the location because the house was being burnt. 

DR ALI: Now it was apparently after this, after your son went to Kwamadale, that following that further claim that he was often seen in the presence of policemen, either in cars or accompanied by police, do you went to comment on this? Did your friend know many policemen, was he often with policemen? Did you ever witness him with policemen? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: That is why I say now that I am asking the Commission to conduct an enquiry as to those allegations so that these people may come forward and put their story forward. I can be happy to know those policemen. 

DR ALI: Your son was also implicated in the murder of Christopher Dungalembu. Right? That happened on the 5th, before the actual killing at the (indistinct). Now somewhere it actually said that your son and Christopher actually knew each other, that they may have been at school together. Is that true? Or they were former colleagues. 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: They knew each other very well. They grew

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up together. From a very early age they grew up together. Even at Zone 7 there is nobody that I had an altercation with. I had no enemies. Even Christopher's family, we were in good terms as well as Khetise and Christopher were friends and at the time that Christopher was killed Khetise was not around, he was at the hospital. 

DR ALI: In your statement though Mrs Kheswa you say that Christopher was killed on the 5th January. On the 12th January was the attack on the house of the mourners. In your statement you say that it was on the 5th or the 12th January when Victor was in hospital because if I understand your statement correctly, and I am reading from your statement, you say that it was - and I am reading - 

&#9;&#9;"On the 12th January while I was in Boksburg..."

You say that was the night when Victor was under intensive care at Boksburg hospital. So when exactly are you speaking about? Was he in hospital the day of the killing of Christopher or the night of the attack on the house? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: What I can say is on the 26th when they came to call him, I don't remember the date very well, that is the date on which he was shot before he went to the hospital, but before he went to Boksburg hospital he was taken to the Sebokeng hospital. Then on the 1st January, that was during new year, he was still at the hospital. What I remember is that he went to Boksburg on the 8th January. Then on the 12th people were killed at the night vigil. He had gone to the hospital on the 8th January. But I don't remember very well the dates at which he was admitted at Sebokeng but on the 1st January he was at the Sebokeng hospital. 

DR ALI: And the accusations which were made against your

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son later, his involvement in the killing of members of the family of Mr Sotsu, which occurred after these events. Do you want to say anything about that? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: Yes, these were the allegations but at the time there was testimony that he was not there. Even the police even went with him to go and show them where he was at that particular time. Then he was found not guilty. But when this appeared in the newspapers when he spoke about all those allegations and denying those allegations that is when people started knowing him. Before then he wasn't known. It is only when he appeared on newspapers that is when he started getting known. Even that case was reopened only after three months. After it had been finalised. It was finalised and reopened. That is when he appeared in the newspapers. And even the people who never knew him came and alleged that they knew him. 

DR ALI: Did your son ever speak to you about these things that were happening, did he ever speak to you about policemen who were approaching him, wanted him to do things for them or tried to get him to work with them? Did he ever speak about anything like that? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: No he never used to talk to me about such things. This is the reason why I am requesting this to be reinvestigated because I know absolutely nothing. So I want this police to come forward. The police he is alleged to have acted with. I want to know them. 

DR ALI: Thank you very much, Mrs Khesiwa.

COMMISSIONER: Are there any questions from other Commissioners?

DR RANDERA: Mrs Kheswa, I know this is difficult so I am not going to push too fast and too far. I want you to take

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your time in answering these questions because you have been very brave to come here today to talk about your son and it seems to me that you want to know the truth as much as anybody else. And we are talking about truth here. I want you to tell us about your son first of all. How old was he? You say he was at school so how old was he when these events started on the 26th December 1990, which changed your life as you say? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: At the time he had just finished school. COMMISSIONER: Order please. Order. If you go on like this we will ask some people to leave this room, even if we are just left with a few people, if you are not going to be disciplined this morning. Please. 

DR RANDERA: Mrs Kheswa I am going to ask you again how old was Victor in December 1990, even if he had just finished school?

MRS EMMA KHESWA: He was born in 1964. But I am not able to actually say how old he was at that particular time. 

DR RANDERA: Okay, thank you mam. Now we have heard today that Victor was seen driving around in cars, that he was a member of a gang, did he bring these cars home to you? I mean you must have seen that he was driving around in these cars. Did you ever ask him where he got these cars from? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: He never drove any cars but he had his own car. One of the cars he used to drive was his father's car. 

DR RANDERA: I just want you to tell us about your family. You say you had other children. How many children do you have? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: I have four children. The first born is a girl.

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DR RANDERA: How long have you been living in the Vaal community?

MRS EMMA KHESWA: I came into Sebokeng, I was from Everton. I got to Sebokeng in 1969. I have stayed there from 1969. DR RANDERA: So you say that you came from Everton, in a sense you have always been a Vaal resident then.

MRS EMMA KHESWA: That is correct. I was born here in the Vaal.

DR RANDERA: And Victor himself was born in the Vaal.

MRS EMMA KHESWA: Victor was born in Everton in 1964. 

DR RANDERA: Can we just now go back to what you call the Street Committees and the Kangaroo Courts. Can you tell us a little about this and who was responsible for the Street Committees, who actually formed the Kangaroo Courts. 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: Where he was shot it was at Pron's place. He is the one who was the head or their leader. 

DR RANDERA: Sorry, whose place?

MRS EMMA KHESWA: At Pron's place.

DR RANDERA: Okay, so you knew about these Street Committees. Were you part of Street Committees yourself?

MRS EMMA KHESWA: No, I was not part of the Street Committee.

DR RANDERA: Were there many people like yourself who were -when you said earlier you left your house because it was burnt, were there many people like you who left their houses because their homes were burnt and either left the area or went into Kwamadale and can you tell us something about that.

MRS EMMA KHESWA: Many people were scattered. We never went to the same places. All those people who were affected by the burnings, each and every one went to a place where he

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found suitable. 

DR RANDERA: I want to go back now to the time that Victor was shot because I think that is very important in terms of what you are saying that he was in hospital when all these other events were taking place. Where was he shot? What part of his body?

MRS EMMA KHESWA: He was shot in the stomach.

DR RANDERA: And when you took him to Boksburg Hospital and they said that the wound was septic, did they operate on him? No I am talking about you first - I know you ....

MRS EMMA KHESWA: At Sebokeng there is nothing that was done to him. He only underwent the operation at Boksburg Hospital. 

DR RANDERA: So he had an operation, they opened his stomach up?

MRS EMMA KHESWA: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: Thank you. As a doctor I can understand that you know if someone has got a septic wound, especially in the stomach, that can be very dangerous and therefore the person must have been very sick in the days that started from the time that he received the gunshot wound to the time he went into hospital. So I can quite understand that he must have been quite sick, if he was as you say, shot in the stomach and the wound had become septic. Can I just come back now to this, you said several times that you want the policemen to come forward so that they can say what they knew about Victor. Did you not know anything about this? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: No, I never knew anything. That is why I say I would like to know. 

DR RANDERA: Even after your son's picture came into the newspapers and the story came into the pictures did you ask

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him about what had happened? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: Yes, when he died he told me that he also wanted to know as to what was happening. 

DR RANDERA: When was the last time you saw Victor alive? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: That was that very same evening when the police had come to fetch us. That was the last time that I saw him alive. Then on the following day they were busy asking me as to where they could get him. I was arrested on a Thursday and Friday. Then Saturday afternoon they came to tell me that he had died.

DR RANDERA: Do you remember the names of the policemen who came to fetch him and you?

MRS EMMA KHESWA: There were many. 

DR RANDERA: Mrs Kheswa, I am just going to move along a little now. You are still living in Kwamadale. Is that right? 

MRS EMMA KHESWA: That is correct.

DR RANDERA: Can you tell us how you feel now. I know about - you have told us already about what happened about your son, but how you feel about the events that have taken place in the last few years in this community. And your own position in the community now. Do you feel safe living in this community?

MRS EMMA KHESWA: I feel very much troubled and in difficulty. That is why I have come here before this Commission. This troubles me so much because now my life has become very difficult and the most painful thing is that even at the location there is not even a single person who can say he or she is my enemy or who may allege that I have had an altercation. I knew myself not to be having any enemy at the location. Even my child he grew up not having

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any problems with the community. Even my neighbours, even at school where he used to attend school I have never had any complaints from the teachers that he was a troublesome child. Life started changing when I started hearing all these allegations and claims about my son. As it is now I am suffering. My life is not normal. 

DR RANDERA: Mrs Kheswa, I don't have any more questions. I am just going to say again what I said at the beginning, that I thank you for coming here today and I hope that we will be able to help you in terms of healing your wounds, but also the community in terms of healing their wounds. Thank you very much. 

COMMISSIONER: Mrs Kheswa, we want to thank you very much for appearing ... (tape ends)

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