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&#9;1&#9;E Z SHANDU
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&#9;1&#9;E Z SHANDU 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;12.08.1996&#9;NAME:&#9;ELIAS ZWELAKHE SHANDU

CASE:&#9;JB01024 &#9;-&#9;PRETORIA

DAY 1

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CHAIRPERSON: Would Mrs Landman then please come forward. Excuse me mam, no, there is still another witness before you on the list. I missed it. It is Mr Shandu. My apologies to the both of you. Please stand and take the oath.

ELIAS ZWELAKHE SHANDU: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. You may sit down and I think Dr Ally will be available to assist you when you are giving us your testimony.

MR SHANDU: I apologise before I say anything, I was born in 1908. I cannot understand Sotho properly. I am going to use Zulu that is Unguli language. 

CHAIRPERSON: It will be on channel four. Those who would like to follow the testimony of Mr Shandu there will be translation on channel four from Zulu. You can flip that through your headphones and see which language you would like to follow. 

DR ALLY: Good day to you Mr Shandu. Can you hear me? Good day to you. You can hear me? Are you able to follow the translation? 

MR SHANDU: Yes.

DR ALLY: Thank you. Good day to you and welcome and thanks for coming. You are coming to speak about your son, Walter, who died in detention in 1978. I am going to ask you now please just to give an account of what you have in your 

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statement. Thank you.

MR SHANDU: My son disappeared in 1978. From 1978 I did not see him. I do not know where he disappeared to. I was looking for him day and night. After that police came to my house looking for him, where he is. They use to come during the day and the night. After some times they came, there were white policemen and black policemen. I think the black policemen were two, Radebe and Sewn. They said to me if you do not tell us the truth we are going to kill you and I said to them you can shoot me, I do not know where he is. The following day in the morning Radebe came again and said we heard where your son is. Your son is in Botswana. We know that he left to Angola or Tanzania and I said I do not know where he is. They asked me if I want him if and I said if you could bring him that. 

&#9;After that I received a telephone from Mabopane Police Station. They said you said you wanted to know where your son is. I went with one of my friends who is called Manley and they took me to the police station. They told me that he is dead and he killed himself, he committed suicide. They said he committed suicide. I went to fetch him in Zeerust, in the mortuary in Zeerust. They said I should wait for the police to come where those police were keeping him in the police station. There is a police station which is between the border gate and Zeerust and then the police arrived in the mortuary. Then they identified him in the mortuary shelves. He was having some marks on his neck and even on his shoulders to show that, to indicate that he was assaulted when you hold him. I asked them what is happening, what happened? They said he committed suicide with his own shirt. I said to them, but it looks like a 

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wire and then I asked them if they could take me to the place where he committed suicide. Then they said the police who were there are not here, they are off duty. I continued asking them and they said do not ask us many questions because we know nothing. 

&#9;Then we took him from the mortuary. We buried him. These police were there at his funeral. They wanted to hear what we were going to say and then we buried him. After having buried him police use to come and harass me. They asked med was your son a member of the ANC. I said I do not know and they asked me, what about you, are you a member of the ANC? I said I was a member of the ANC before it was banned, but now I am a church goer. They asked me where are some of your children. Then I said to them I do not know where my other daughter is. Then the police said they do not know where she is. That was the last time I gave the statement.

DR ALLY: Thank you very much. Mr Shandu, I am just going to ask you a few questions if you do not mind. Walter, before he left, what was his political involvement? Do you know? 

MR SHANDU: You would not know about young people back from the independence days. He said that is not independence day. I saw the South African flag and the flag of Bophuthatswana because independence, when there is freedom, you will see all the flags of many countries. So that is not independence. 

DR ALLY: And before he left, did the police ever harass him before he decided to leave?

MR SHANDU: They use to come, but they could not find him. Many police use to come to the house and I asked him when he PRETORIA HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

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came back and what did they do. When he comes I will tell him to go to the police station, Mabopane Police Station. 

DR ALLY: Thanks. In 1978, that is when you think he left the country and you actually say that you were phoned by somebody in Botswana who actually told you that your son was in one of the camps. Is that correct?

MR SHANDU: Yes. I received a telephone from police. They said he is in Botswana. He is coming back from Angola, he was coming back from Angola. 

DR ALLY: But you said you also received a message from somebody who was a Recruiting Officer of the ANC. Is that correct? Somebody in Botswana, Mr Makgothe, who called to say that your son was in an ANC camp, Makgothe

MR SHANDU: Yes, yes that is true.

DR ALLY: And did you ever hear what, that after your son had actually left that he came back into the country. Is that when you think that he was actually arrested? Do you know about his, have you ever been told anything by the ANC about what happened to your son after he entered a camp in Botswana?

MR SHANDU: They never told me. They told me that he was in Botswana, the time he was in Botswana. 

DR ALLY: So the next that you heard was actually from the police then to say that you had to come and identify your son?

MR SHANDU: Could you please repeat the question again. I cannot hear properly.

DR ALLY: I am asking after you went to, you actually did go to Botswana to try and see your son, but you say you did not see your son. That is correct.

MR SHANDU: I never saw my son in Botswana. I went to 

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Botswana. Even on my return from Botswana I feared crossing borders at that time because they use to harass me. I would stand for two hours at the border asking, they asking me where I was going. I would just tell them that I am going on holiday. 

DR ALLY: Now you say the police told you that your son committed suicide. Did they ever show you any medical records?

MR SHANDU: They told me that they will fetch him, but he committed suicide, but there was no mark that showed that he committed suicide. Marks that were despicable were only those inflicted by physical force that they applied on him.

DR ALLY: And do you know if an autopsy was done to establish the cause of death?

MR SHANDU: I found that he has already been operated upon. 

DR ALLY: And were you ever given any papers, any medical papers, records to say how your son had died?

MR SHANDU: They gave nothing. Not even a single document to show that. They actually ignored me. 

DR ALLY: And did you have any legal representation, any lawyer advising you during this time?

MR SHANDU: I did have a lawyer. They said if I wanted to get a lawyer, I must pay R20 000,00. I did not have money that time. 

DR ALLY: And who, did you actually bury your son? Did the family bury your son after this? Were you given the body back to bury your son?

MR SHANDU: I cannot hear properly.

DR ALLY: The burial of your son, were you, did this, did the family bury your son?

MR SHANDU: Yes, Sir, we did bury him. 

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DR ALLY: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions Tom.

MR MANTHATA: Sorry. Oh yes, I am sorry. I am sorry. What I wanted to know is Mr Makgothe you are referring to in your statement, they Makgothe who has been the leader of the trade unions within the ANC? Sorry.

MR SHANDU: I do not know actually. I cannot tell you, but he was in Botswana. I cannot tell you whether he is the person who is the leader of the trade unions, but we were together with him in Mabopane and then he left for Botswana.

MR MANTHATA: I do not know whether I am repeating this question. From ANC what report did you get about the death of your son?

MR SHANDU: No, they did not give me any report about the death of my son. There was no report. 

MR MANTHATA: There was not even an indication of in whose company could he have been at the time he might have been detained by the Nietverdiende police?

MR SHANDU: No, they told me that the group which was in his company went to Tanzania and Angola and this was a group which was going to Angola and they left for Tanzania. They told, the police told me like that. That this person, my son, was going with, was in the company of the group which was going to Angola. That is the manner in which the police told me. 

MR MANTHATA: They do not say that your son together with those others were coming back into the country. They say they were going to Angola?

MR SHANDU: The police said they were going to Angola. I am just trying to hide it. They said I am trying to hide it because my son was going to Angola and they said they are 

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going to arrest him before he gets to Angola.

MR MANTHATA: In short, they did just that. He was arrested before he could even get to Angola?

MR SHANDU: Yes.

MR MANTHATA: Which meant he had not even reached Botswana?

MR SHANDU: They were in Botswana at the time Sereta was there. They were in Botswana. They took him in Botswana. I think those were the people who were leaving the country. MR MANTHATA: Okay, thank you.

MR SHANDU: What I want to know, I want to know who killed my son. That is why I came here. I just want to know who killed my son, for what.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shandu, thank you very much. There are no further questions here. You have been living with this for some what 18 years, not being able to find out. We hope that we will be getting more information. We are circulating all the statements to everybody indicated. We are asking them for comment. We will try our utmost best. Of course we cannot guarantee anything, but we will indeed also report to you. We will try our best to try and find out and tell you what we can tell you. Thank you very much for coming to us. We will be in touch with you again. 

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