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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 18/20-06-96&#9;&#9;NAME: STHEMBELE SEPTIMUS ZIBI

CASE: EC0241/96&#9;&#9;UMTATA

DAY 1

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CHAIRMAN: We will ask Hlengiwe Mkhize to lead the witness.

MS MKHIZE: Mr Zibi, thank you very much it has been a long wait for you since this morning I would like you to tell the commission and the audience at large about your brother Vuyani Zibi, so that we can all have an image of the person we are talking about. 

MR ZIBI: Vuyani Zibi was my younger brother, he was the fourth child at home he was a very obedient child, he was also a quite person, a humble person, but he was very intelligent, that was evident in his studies. He used to go to school at Ndamasa senior secondary, that's where he matriculated. After that he got a job at Works and Energy in the science department here in Umtata. While he was working he continued with his studies as a registered student here at UNITRA, and then in 1980, in February 1980 while he was writing his supplementary exams, he didn't come back. That was the time that we realised that we would never see him again. 

MS MKHIZE: I'd like to know whether from your knowledge of him, was he associated with any political organisations during his student years.

MR ZIBI: At the time before his death, we didn't or the parents didn't even realise that he was involved in any political organisations. But as a student you could see just like any other student, that they are politically aware, and they are involved in certain political organisations. But when he, again when he skipped the country we did realise that he was a member of the ANC. 

MS MKHIZE: Maybe you can tell us as to how old was he when he left the country.

MR ZIBI: He was twenty one years old when he left the country.

MS MKHIZE: Did he share his plans with any one of you in the family that he intended leaving the country for political reasons.

MR ZIBI: Like I've said, he didn't have a chance to tell us more about his political involvements, because the last time we saw him he was writing his supplementary exams. Now we were waiting that after he had written the supplementary exams we would see him again, but now like I said, he didn't finish those exams.

MS MKHIZE: Were you officially informed by any of the political leaders that he was in exile.

MR ZIBI: As a family we were not officially told, about skipping the country or wherever he is. But as the months went on, we didn't even know a trace of his whereabouts. We even tried to look for him where he used to stay just to find out if there was anybody who had any knowledge about him. But all in vain.

MS MKHIZE: According to the statement that you made you said he went to Lesotho and did he write to the family while he was in Lesotho or send a message or try to communicate in one way or another.

MR ZIBI: He never communicated to the family. For us to know that he's in Lesotho, we only heard after an incident that happened in Lesotho, that is when we were told that a group of people had been murdered. We were told by one of the lawyers from Umtata Mr Madikizela. 

MS MKHIZE: The incident which happened in Lesotho can you just clarify to the Commission what you heard, and especially as it had affected your brother.

MR ZIBI: We got this report that there had been a mass attack in Lesotho, in Maseru specifically who were killed by the South African soldiers in a place where they used to reside. Now after we got that report, the whole family was interested. We also wanted to go and fetch his body. We contacted the then Transkei government so that we would be able to go to Lesotho, fortunately, we did get permission to go and get his body from Lesotho. I can't remember the date but we went on a Thursday, it was in December on a day between the 16th and the 27th December 1982. We left here very early in the morning then we got there in the afternoon in Maseru. We went into an area that was used by whites at the time in Lesotho. We were referred to a certain policeman of Lesotho. The people who welcomed us were friendly to us, they were quite hospitable, they were from South Africa. They were all members of the ANC, they really helped us until we got to a stage where we were sent into a place called Quinto, which was a mortuary. Then we got in to identify the body. When we got into the mortuary, it was rather big. The sight that we encountered there was horrible. We had to look at each and every one of those bodies so that we can identify our own. Most of the people that we saw there, there body parts were scattered, they were torn. Most of them were burned. They even look like burned wooden remains. Eventually we saw Vuyani's body which was also tattered, it was also charred. The police gave us an impression that these people were supposed to be asleep. Vuyani had a bullet wound on the side of his head, which went through to the back of his head, and again he was burned in his private parts. After identifying him, then we were given his body, after all the documents it was now rather late on Thursday, we were forced to sleep there. We were told that at six O'Clock in the morning we were going to take the body and then leave for home. But on Friday morning when we woke up, we had another problem now, the car that we were driving with, it was five months old, we discovered that it was stolen. The security police that was on duty at the time said no, when he came in to report on duty that morning he said he didn't find the car at all, so on that Friday morning we had this problem, what are we going to do with the body, so we decided to go back to that house that we got help in. That's where we again met those ANC members who helped us a lot, Especially Mr Mpumhlwana, who was in Maseru at that time. I think his name is Lohiso, he really helped us on Friday. He tried by all means so that we can ge a hearse which was going to take my brother back to South Africa. We got the hearse in the afternoon, then we left after sunset, even though this hearse had a problem we managed. The Lesotho policeman allowed us to go through the borders after they had been briefed about the purpose of our visit. A certain Mr Selo explained to them the purpose of our visit, but when we got to South Africa, the South African police refused that we should go through to South Africa. It was a bit different the way they treated us and the way they talked to us, they were quite disdainful to us. Then we were forced to sleep because they said they didn't have - that they didn't have the powers to let us though so we were forced to sleep along the road with the body until the following morning which was now on Saturday. Then on Saturday we got word that we can now proceed that's how we crossed over. Now before we got to Sterkspruit, just a short distance before we got to Sterkspruit the hearse broke down such that Mr Solo said that this young man doesn't want to go home. He said this because of all these problems that were encountering. When we got to Sterkspruit he called back to Maseru trying to get another hearse and in the meantime we thought we should hire another one, something that will take us to Umtata - yes, we got a car which took us to Umtata. 

MS MKHIZE: You really had many problems on your way from Lesotho back here to Umtata - I would like you to tell the Commission about the circumstances around the funeral - once you are here at Umtata. How did you proceed to make arrangements for his burial?

MR ZIBI: The funeral was at our home in Umtandoli. As the days went on we got a message and this message was that we are supposed to bury Vuyani during the week and we were told the people in the funeral must not be more than 200 and we were told that at twelve o'clock the whole process must be over. But on that day of the funeral one of the older men entered as a priest, because there were so few people at that time, in that funeral. The people who came to the funeral were quite few but the people who were so many were the police. Even the people right behind the chair that I was sitting on were the police.

MS MKHIZE: If you can further tell the Commission as to the impact of those restrictions on the normal mourning process that takes place within families if a loss of this nature had occurred.

MR ZIBI: The restrictions had their impact because when somebody has died in a family there are people who usually come to the home to comfort the family members, but we were restricted, but there were people who dared this order, this restriction order. They came. Usually we are supposed to have young men to dig up the hole but there are those who dared and went and arranged for the funeral. But people even if they didn't participate fully as they usually do in our funerals, they did explain that it is because of these restrictions that they are not coming. But the funeral went on and was over at the time when the Policemen wanted it to be. My sickly mother was a very hurt by this whole process. Especially that Lesotho massacre. It really hurt her. She never recovered after that. Even after she died, a few years after that - this stayed on for years after Vuyani was buried.

MS MKHIZE: It's made here, it's like you are in search for more information about people who lived closely to Vuyani. Did you ever hear from any of his fellow comrades in Lesotho after his funeral?

MR ZIBI: I never got any word after the funeral. Unfortunately one of the people that I thought had knowledge about this, especially about Vuyani he was Mr Matutu, unfortunately he died as the years went by. I think he was the one who was going to have information but unfortunately he died before we could get anything from him. Now then after that we never got any details about Vuyani's death.

MS MKHIZE: Before I hand you over back to our Chairperson I would ask you just to think about the things that you'd be happy if the Commission can help you with. I see here you referred to his photo. If anyone has his photo can you think of any other thing that you think the Commission can be of assistance with?

MR ZIBI: Firstly, as a family, we would like to know, we would like to know why were those people massacred. Why were those people massacred in their sleep, unfortunately Vuyani was one of those. This looked like it happened at night, as you can see when we went there it looked like Vuyani was asleep when he was attached. We would just like to know the reason. We want to know from the South African soldiers why they did that, because we know that it was the South African soldiers who did this. About the photo, unfortunately when I was trying to look, trying to search for his photo, so that even those who are younger, even the next generation, those who are nieces and nephews to him should know what he looked like. The last time I saw his photo it was in Lesotho. But now I unfortunately at the time we didn't think of taking it and bringing it home. It looks like something that is insignificant, but it means quite a lot to us because now people in his family don't know what he looked like. Thank you.

MS MKHIZE: As you know, according to your knowledge did Vuyani know or have any friends or any girlfriends that he had a child with?

MR ZIBI: I did try to see if he had any child even while he was in Lesotho, we would really like to know more about that if there is any child of his in Lesotho. We would like to know about that as well.

MS MKHIZE: Is that what you are asking the Commission to please try and investigate if your brother had any family of his own in Lesotho?

MR ZIBI: Oh, yes, we would like it very much if the Commission can help us in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Zibi from the Commission About the fall of your brother, falling in a foreign country in Lesotho. The details that you have put before us ask us that we should follow them and investigate. We are going to do this. There is one thing that I want to report to you know that the Commission is going to meet with all the political organisations and one of them will be one of the political parties that was in government at the time of the National Party. This is one of the questions we are going to ask them - that who was doing the raids in Lesotho. We are going to get the answers from them. 

&#9;I would also like to ensure you that the reparation and, the Reparation Committee which is led by my colleague here next to me, Commissioner Hlengiwe Mkhize, is looking very closely into this matter to see what other things that can be things that can be permanent stones for your people to remember them, to remember our heroes, I assure you that your brother's name will be in there. You will remember some of those people were never brought back to South Africa to be buried properly. They died in foreign countries and they were buried in foreign countries but now this committee, Hlengiwe Mkhize's committee is going to investigate and see what is going to happen. This Committee is going to see how this people can be given their dignified and respective funerals. I assure you that all your requests will be taken seriously by the Commission. 

&#9;We will appeal to the entire country where you are asking that if there is anybody who has got a photograph or any woman who had a relationship with your brother and out of that may been a child coming out of the relationship you would like that family to get into contact with you it is a cry of a desperate family which would like to have something which will perpetuate the memory of your brother, and I'm sure that call and that cry is being taken seriously. 

&#9;We thank you very much and we are grateful for your time.

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