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&#9;1&#9;T C BOIKHUTSO
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&#9;1&#9;T C BOIKHUTSO 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;12.08.1996&#9;NAME: THOKOZILE CHRISTINA BOIKHUTSO

CASE:&#9;JB01062/02PS&#9;-&#9;PRETORIA

DAY 1

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CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Boikhutso, welcome to you. If you would like to make use of the headphones, I am not sure in which language you would want to give your testimony to us. Can you hear me if I speak or can you hear the translator? Please check the channel there. Thank you very much. Just before you start with your evidence which Dr Ally will assist you in leading, will you please stand up and just take the oath? Will you please stand up.

THOKOZILE CHRISTINA BOIKHUTSO: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may sit down. Dr Ally will assist you.

DR ALLY: Good morning to you Mrs Boikhutso. 

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Good morning Sir.

DR ALLY: You are coming to speak about your husband Festus who went into exile in 1963. I will just ask you to give us your story.

MRS BOIKHUTSO: My husband left in 1963 on the 22nd of October. He left home and that time and he left the children behind and I have never heard from him before. I was nine months pregnant when he left and I was being harassed by Boers by that time. I was also evicted from my house. I struggled to bring up my children and I sent them to the Roman Catholic Church so that they can take care of them. Thereafter, before that ...

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DR ALLY: Excuse me Mrs Boikhutso, sorry to interrupt you, but the translation is not coming through.

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Okay, okay. 

DR ALLY: Could you, just for one minute while I try and sort this out. 

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Okay. 

DR ALLY: Sorry about that. 

MRS BOIKHUTSO: They took me out of the house and I struggled with the children since then. From there I stayed with my sister and she also had a small house and she evicted me also. I fled to Pretoria where I, from Pretoria and I met Nagope and Nagope said to me I have brought the ANC to Mabopane. He took me from my home in 1990 and sent me to jail and they would fetch me with a Hippo from my yard. I was very scared by then. I did not know whether I was going to be killed or not and they hit me with a gun butt on the head, forcing me into the Hippo, and I did not want to and they forced me to get in. They took me to Zone Five and I stayed there for about six weeks and three days and thereafter they came to fetch me. Patrick Hooma came and he fetched me from jail. 

&#9;From there my right ear does not function well. They injured my right ear and I am still attending treatment. I want my house back at Joemeka. I put a claim in for my house, but I do not know when the people are going to call me back because they put me, they took me out of the house whilst I was still, I was not having any debt on it. 

DR ALLY: Thank you Mrs Boikhutso. If I could just, are you done or would you like to continue?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: I will ask the Government to give us our house back because since my father died or my husband died 

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we do not know where he is. Could they please bring us his remains so that we can bury him and the children also want to know where there father is sleeping. One of the children does not know who his father is because he died in exile. They do not know even where his grave is. I am a very ill person presently. I do not write anymore, I am only staying at home. There is no one working for me. Therefore I have not received any help from the Government. 

DR ALLY: Mrs Boikhutso, if I could just, if you do not mine, if I could just ask you just a few questions to just assist us to try and clarify some things. I may have missed some of the things you said.

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Yes, you can ask me questions.

DR ALLY: Thank you. I may have missed some of the things you said earlier because I was not getting the translation so please forgive me if I am going to get you to repeat things, but you are speaking about two issues. 

MRS BOIKHUTSO: My husband left in 1963 on the 22nd of October. I stayed in this house until I was evicted by the police who use to harass me. I was pregnant when they took me to John Vorster Square and I stayed there for three days. They wanted me to tell them the truth and they also use to visit me at home, kick the doors around and the children will be scared by that time and not be able to sleep. When they came again they said I am not telling the truth about where my husband is and they said I must report to John Vorster Square every day. 

&#9;Every day I would wake up early in the morning and go by train to John Vorster Square for about seven days, on the ninth floor that is at John Vorster Square. Thereafter they came to evict me from the house. They took everything 

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outside, my clothes, and they locked the house. I struggled with the children since then and I sent them to the Roman Catholic Church and they stayed at Mariatrost. That is where they started school. When I fetched them I had a place to stay with them so that they could study Setswana. When my husband left I was one month pregnant and I was being assisted by the Welfare to pay rent and to buy food by that time. 

&#9;After my husband died the Special Branch members came to me. There were three and they were in two cars. They asked me and they told me that my husband has been killed. When I asked them where they told me it was in Rhodesia. I think that is where his bones are lying. I do not even know his grave because we tried to make application so that we can go over and bury him, but they said to us it is no more possible because the Government said it would bury your husband. I struggled so further trying to look for work and staying with some friends because I had no house. Then I came to Pretoria where I stayed with my relatives. 

&#9;There were Bophuthatswana police who use to come to me and ask me where my husband was and I would tell them that he was in exile, I do not know exactly where he is. They would ask me when is he coming back? I would not answer them and they also arrested me in 1990 in October. They fetched me in a Hippo. I was very scared when they put me into the Hippo because it was the first time I went into the Hippo. They forced me into it. They took me in jail at Zone Five in Garankuwa and these people who took me, I know them. They are Pule and Witienelo. They locked me in a cell. The cell had not been trapped by then. It was very thin, they were giving me a donkey blanket. I was sitting 

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on the floor and I had an operation and I complained about this operation. I told them I am not able to sleep at night and I asked them to take me to the doctor and they promised me to do so. 

&#9;On the third day they took me in the afternoon and they took me to the clinic in Mabopane. They told the nurse to give me tablets and I said I cannot take the tablets I do not know of because I have not seen a doctor yet. I will not take those tablets in and they took me back and I was still in the cell where I was sleeping. I stayed for a further three weeks and three days. That is when Advocate Pat Kuma said to them they must release me and that is the day I went out, I was released. When I was still at home they use to come to me, these people, trying to find out about the meetings we were holding, where we were holding the meetings and they were accusing me that I was the person who started the ANC in Mabopane. 

&#9;I would presently like the Government to help us to go and find out where my husband is lying because the children also complain. They want to know where their father is buried. People told us that the other exiles have been buried in Lusaka, but my family has never been informed about where my husband has been buried. I would like the Government to help me to go over and see where my husband is sleeping otherwise the Government should bring along his remains so that we can bury him at home. 

DR ALLY: Thank you Mrs Boikhutso. Just a few questions. When your husband left in 1963 did you ever have any contact with him after that? Did you hear from him? 

MRS BOIKHUTSO: No, he did not write me. I think he only wrote a letter to the Welfare Department so that they can 

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help me, but I knew he was a member of the MK and he also warned me that he might die or leave without our knowledge. He asked me only to take care of his children. He did not sleep at home on those last days. I would have to send him some clothes through some people to change and I did not even know at that time where he was before he left the country.

DR ALLY: So the first time that you ever heard about your husband again, was this in 1968 when you heard about him being killed? Was that the first time that you heard about him after he left?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Yes, it was the first time when they came to tell me at home that my husband has been killed on the 10th of April. Yes, they came very early to tell me about that and most people who bought the newspaper a while before we got the Sowetan newspaper. People told me that he appeared on the paper, that is The World newspaper and some people also heard over the radio and they came to tell me that your husband is dead. He died yesterday and I found their names at the back in The World newspaper. 

DR ALLY: And this was the Security Police who came to tell you that your husband had been killed?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: No, they were white Special Branch policemen. They were three and they had come in two cars which were parked in front of my house. 

DR ALLY: And did they actually say who had killed your husband? Did they say anybody took responsibility?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: No, they did not tell me who killed him. They only told me that he had been killed, but in The World newspaper it was reported that they were killed by the Rhodesia Security Forces in Salisbury. 

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DR ALLY: Did the ANC ever contact you about your husband and how he had died and who killed him?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: No, the ANC has not told me anything. The MK Commander like Joe Modise was with him and Mrs Misimango also said she was with him. She showed me a book where his name was and I was worried. I asked her to show me ...

DR ALLY: You can take your time Mrs Boikhutso. Do not feel obliged to continue if you do not want to. 

MRS BOIKHUTSO: They did not show me his name, but they said it appeared on the list, but they did not show me at Shell House where his name was. That is what worries me and furthermore we have not received any help from these people.

DR ALLY: Did you receive a death certificate, an official death certificate confirming that your husband had been killed?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Yes, they brought me one. It was brought by a lawyer from the Legal Aid. 

DR ALLY: And were you ever given any idea as to where your husband may have been buried? Do you have any ideas?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: No, they did not tell me. That is these Special Branch members, but when the Pretoria Special Branch had taken me and I asked them to give me a letter to go where my husband was buried. They said to me, they told me that they had been buried through a mass funeral. That is they buried them all in one hole. 

DR ALLY: The death certificate, did it actually indicate the cause of death? Did it say how your husband died?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Yes, it was said in the death certificate that he was killed by the Security Forces and that is they bombed them while they were in the aeroplane. 

DR ALLY: You also speak, in your statement, you also speak 

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about you yourself having experienced harassment. Now was this because you were also a political activist?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Yes, it is true. These people use to harass me day and night and I was pregnant by then. They took me to John Vorster Square where I was made to sit down on the floor. The children were locked up in the house and my next door neighbours broke the door so that they can take the children out of the house. There was no one who could take care of my children because I was away by that time. 

DR ALLY: You say that they tortured you when they took you to John Vorster Square. Can you tell us a little bit about that? What did they actually do? What kind of torture was this?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: They use to pull me by my ears, push me around and hit me against walls. Each one of them would pull me by my ears and ask me to tell them the truth about what my husband did and I told them I was a housewife, I did not know the whereabouts of my husband. I would not know after he left the house where he was off to and that is what I told him. I said I was staying at home with the children and when I did not tell them what they wanted to hear from me they would slap me. They would also pull the blankets and throw the children around in the house. Everytime my children would see a white guy or a white person they would be scared. They said that I had to report every day at the police station. That is for seven days. 

DR ALLY: And they knew that you were pregnant. You told them that you were pregnant at the time when all this was happening? 

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Yes, I told them. They knew about it and they asked me where my husband was. I told them, no, my 

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husband has left me and I am pregnant at the moment. 

DR ALLY: Now you also speak about being evicted from your house. Was this your house? Did you own the house or were you renting the house?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Yes, it was my house. It was at 1448 Mapetla. It was my house. 

DR ALLY: Thank you Mrs Boikhutso. I am going to ask other members of the panel if they want to perhaps ask some questions, but thank you very much. 

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Sooka.

MRS SOOKA: Mrs Boikhutso, can you tell me, you said in your statement that your husband was an active member of the ANC. What activities was he involved in?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: He use to convene meetings and there was a first group that came that went into exile. I was not sure, but they were full in the house and when they were sitting in the house they sent me home so that the police could not find me. These people stayed in my house and him together with Moswaledi helped these people to go into exile. Let me think, well, Moleka was also with them and I would ask what these people are doing here in my house and he would tell me these are ANC members. Some of them are from PE and they were the first ones who went to exile and he helped them to go. 

MRS SOOKA: Could you tell me after he left did he come in and out of the country between 1963 and 1968?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: No, he never came back. I last saw him on the 22nd of October when he left for work. Until today I have not seen him. 

MRS SOOKA: Did you during this period, did you hear about whether he was involved in bombing up any offices? Do you 

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know exactly what his activities were when he left the country?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Do you mean whether he was involved in a bombing explosion? I could not understand your question. 

MRS SOOKA: Could you tell me when he left the country did you ever hear from anybody else about what he was involved in? For instance was he involved in bombing up any offices in this country or do you know what he was doing in this plane when it was shot down?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: I do not know what they were doing, but what I knew was that he was ANC and they were the people who were fighting. I would hear that an office had been bombed, but I would not know whether he took part in that or not. 

MRS SOOKA: You also say in your statement that your husband had prepared you for what would happen is something happened to him. Could you tell us what you meant by that?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Yes, he told me that he is a member of the Umkhonto we Sizwe and he could die any time or be arrested or he can leave the country. That is what he told me and it was in the evening when he told me that and he left the following day. He said to me, please take care of my children and I will contact the Welfare so that they can help you to pay rent and buy food. He knew that I was a very ill person and I could not work. I was also being helped by the people from the Khotso help to bring up my children and to buy food for them. They also helped with the education for the children and Comrade Manthata is one of those people who helped me and is present here. 

DR ALLY: One last question. Were you yourself ever involved in any activities of the ANC?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Yes, I use to take part, but I use to do it 

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underground. I use to travel with my mum. I mean, when I say mum, I mean Winnie Madike Zelemanzela, use to help me by taking clothes to give them to poor children whose fathers had been long arrested. We use to send some money and food for such children, but I would not show my activities in front of people. I would do these things in an underground way and we also had some Reverends to give food to people who were poor. 

MRS SOOKA: Sorry, just two more questions. One, did the ANC ever come back to you and tell you officially what had happened to your husband?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: No, I was not told by the ANC, I was told by the police. That is the two police who had come to my home and when I went to the ANC offices they would tell me that they were together with my husband at the camp and when he died he fell near them. When I asked them to tell me what happened one person who told me that he was with him, did not want to show me the book. He told me that his name was in the book and I said to him if I could see his name in the book, because I last saw his name in The World newspaper. They never showed me his name. That is what worries me. 

MRS SOOKA: You mention in your statement that you had, about your lawyer, what was the name of your lawyer?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Do you mean the lawyer who wrote me a letter? I cannot remember his name, but he was from the Legal Aid at that time. I cannot remember the name. 

MRS SOOKA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Manthata.

MR MANTHATA: When your husband left, besides being in the organisation, did he have any occupation?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: He use to collect dry cleans and send them

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for laundry services and otherwise he worked for the ANC.

MR MANTHATA: I would ask you a question that was asked before. You said ... were there any other names in that book of the women who had lost their husbands?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: I really cannot say. I cannot say anything about that. I think those women have got their husbands back at the moment. What she told me is that they were together with my husband in that camp. 

MR MANTHATA: My question is regarding the fact that there were other women like you who had lost their husbands like Ms Maramoti whom we heard that her husband was also in the struggle and I would like to know whether this woman ever told you about the death of her husband or did they ever hear anything.

MRS BOIKHUTSO: No, I never met any women. 

MR MANTHATA: You said that when you got to Mabopane they said you were the only ANC member there.

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Yes, they said I was the one who formed the ANC in Mabopane. They use to come to me and take me to the police station and ask me where my husband was and what I was doing in Bophuthatswana and whether it was me who formed the ANC there. They use to harass me and visit me now and then. They even use to come at night and take me to the police station to ask me questions and in 1990 they arrested me and they came in a Hippo and I was scared. I thought I was going to die. They forced me into the Hippo and the other one hit me with a gun butt on my head. He hit me on my head and he said to me I must open the house so that he could check the house and then I must get into the Hippo and that is where they locked me in a dark cell. 

MR MANTHATA: When you got to Mabopane were Mrs Bart then

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and Mr Molefe not yet there because they were also ANC members? 

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Mrs Bart, I met her through Mr Marumo and the other one, he was from Moletsane. These are the two people who made me meet Mrs Bart and I also met Mr Molefe and Mr Marumo who had served 12 years at Robben Island. They were the people with whom I met after they were released and they were given a message to look for the Boikhutso family and they found us. Mr Marumo and the other guy, I have known them from Johannesburg because they were staying in Moletsane. It was the first time that I was meeting Mrs Bart, I did not know her before. 

MR MANTHATA: Okay. How many children do you still have in school?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: There were three, but they have all finished high school.

MR MANTHATA: In your request regarding the burial of your husband, what did the ANC say about that, regarding whether those people's remains could be sent here and be buried at home. What did the ANC say about that?

MRS BOIKHUTSO: Comrade Manthata, when we buried Solomon Mahlangu we were told that some people are still in exile and they are still looking for a place where they can bury the other people's remains so that they can all be sent home. That is how Mr Mandela told us, but presently it seems as if he is taking a lot of time and we might die before we could see the graves of our husbands. So we are asking the Government to please assist us to get us the remains of our husbands so that we can bury them at home. Even if we can conduct a mass funeral for them. As long as we know that they have been buried at home we will be

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satisfied. That is what I am asking for. 

MR MANTHATA: It is true we are working under the Government and we will send your request through to the Government, but all we can do is to influence them to do that on a rapid rate and I thank you. 

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Boikhutso, thank you very much. I have no questions. My colleagues have dealt, also, with the questions in my mind. We appreciate your coming to us and we will go further into the matter as Mr Manthata has just told you. We will also try to expedite the matter by getting that to the relevant authorities to see whether they could look into bringing the remains of your husband back to his country. Thank you very much for coming to us.

MRS BOIKHUTSO: I also thank you. 

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