

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARINGS

 

DATE:&#9;&#9;12 MARCH 1997

HELD AT:&#9;&#9;CAPE TOWN 

NAME:&#9;&#9;CAPT WILLEM WOUTER MENTZ

DAY 2

____________________________________________________________

JUDGE MALL: Are we ready to begin?

ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we are ready to begin. 

Mr Chairman, the matters for today are the Botswana 

operation Kahn House, Vereeniging incident and Komatipoort 

Four, on page 1, Mr Chairman. I will hand over to my 

learned friend, that is the application of Mentz, the Mentz 

application.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Sorry, I didn't hear, what volume, what page?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, page 68 is the first matter 

that is Kahn House.

JUDGE WILSON: And whose....

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mentz's application, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: May I beg leave to call Capt Mentz?

JUDGE MALL: Yes, please.

ADV DU PLESSIS CALLS:

WILLEM WOUTER MENTZ: (Duly sworn, states).

EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, on page 68 the 

application starts. You say the period was between 1989 and 

1992, is that correct?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you give a closer date for us, could 

you remember?

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;75&#9;CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: Unfortunately not.

ADV DU PLESSIS: On page 69 you started with the explanation 

of this incident, and could you please start with the first 

paragraph.

CAPT MENTZ: Instructions were given that an operation in 

Botswana had to be carried out. The purpose of the 

operation was to eliminate a business just across the border 

in Botswana and a shop as well. There was also a house. It 

was used as a shelter for terrorists. It was used as a 

shelter for terrorists crossing the border, and it was used 

as a contact point where information and messages were 

passed on and help and assistance given to terrorists on 

their way to the Republic of South Africa or were returning 

from the Republic. We expected to find at this house some 

terrorists there who would be overnighting there. The 

target would be eliminated due to the fact that it was 

necessary to prevent the passage of terrorists across the 

border. These terrorists, were at that stage, responsible 

for handgrenade explosions, landmine explosions, death of 

innocent civilians and also other acts of terror. I was 

not told anything else and it must be remembered that I 

acted on the instructions of my commanding officers.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, the persons using this 

particular house, the terrorists, do you know where they 

crossed the border normally?

CAPT MENTZ: Across the border-line not through any official 

border post where you have to show their passport, they just 

jumped the fence, as we called it. There wasn't a very high 

or electrified fence, it was simply a farm fence and there 

was a river and on the RSA side there was just an ordinary 

fence. And they used secret routes there. 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;76&#9;CAPT MENTZ

ADV DU PLESSIS: You say it was used as shelter and 

accommodation for terrorists crossing the border, this 

particular contact house. Is your information that 

terrorists were often to be found in that house before they 

crossed the border?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you continue, please, the third 

paragraph.

CAPT MENTZ: The persons involved in the operation were Col 

Eugene de Kock who was in command. He was the senior 

officer there. The other officers were Lieut Marthinus Ras 

Jnr - Gen Ras' son. He obtained the information and liaised 

with the local security branch in Zeerust, as well as the 

rest of the Western Transvaal area. We also had with us 

Willie Nortjé, Chappies Klopper, Marthinus Ras, as I have 

mentioned, Warrant Officer Louw van Niekerk, Charlie Chait 

and I later remembered other names: Douw Willemse, Dragon 

Andronowitz, Dawid Brits, Lionel Snyman, Snor Vermeulen, 

John Taite. 

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could you please repeat those names, 

slowly, because these people have not been notified. It is 

only brought to our attention now and you perhaps have their 

addresses or know where they could be found. Could you 

please tell the Committee that, so that they can be 

notified.

CAPT MENTZ: Certainly, Chairperson. I will repeat the 

names. Douw Willemse, Dragon Andronowitz, Dawid Brits, 

Lionel Snyman, Snor Vermeulen, John Taite. These persons 

are all witnesses for the Attorney-General, except for, as 

far as I am concerned, John Taite. John Taite lives in the 

area of Knysna or George, I don't have a specific address. 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;77&#9;CAPT MENTZ

The rest, as far as I know, are all witnesses for the 

Attorney-General. And then there were other people who were 

involved, but I can't remember their names specifically and 

I don't want to mention a name if I am not sure of his 

involvement, but there were two or three other people 

involved as well.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, before we turn to the next 

page, were you involved in the planning of this operation?

CAPT MENTZ: At no stage, Chairperson. I was at Vlakplaas. 

I was a junior there. And as I have said earlier, I 

received instructions - when I received instructions I did 

not doubt these instructions and the way in which Eugene de 

Kock had contact with the police and security head offices, 

I had no doubt that these instructions came right from the 

top, via him. When I say from the top I mean senior 

generals and officers in the security police. And I didn't 

call them into question, the instructions. 

ADV DU PLESSIS: How did you see your involvement in this 

operation relating to the political situation in the country 

at the time?

CAPT MENTZ: The way I saw it, was that we were fighting the 

ANC, PAC and other liberation organisations with every means 

at our disposal. We wanted to eliminate these people and it 

was important for us that the operation should be 

successful, seeing that this particular complex was quite 

close to the border in Botswana, and terrorists had easy 

routes, easy access to and from the Republic of South Africa 

and they also received further instructions, help and 

weapons there.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, whom did you expect to find in the 

house? You yourself, I am not talking about the planning of 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;78&#9;CAPT MENTZ

the operation, but that night when you went out, what or who 

did you expect to find in the house?

CAPT MENTZ: The person whose business and home it was, as 

well as terrorists.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Please continue, page 70.

CAPT MENTZ: I just want to add something here. I earlier 

testified that I was at no stage involved in the planning of 

the operation or the identifying of this place, but if I 

remember correctly, I and Willie Nortjé went to the 

technical branch, Pretoria, just before the operation and he 

there obtained Scorpion weapons with silencers. These were 

prepared for us there and I waited in the car. He brought 

the weapons out in boxes, cardboard boxes. I helped him to 

transport these to Vlakplaas. It was only at a later stage 

that I found these weapons at a particular farm. So I was 

involved in the transporting of the weapons from security 

technical to Vlakplaas. 

&#9;We left from Vlakplaas with quite a few vehicles in a 

convoy to a farm near the Botswana border. The farmhouse 

was deserted. I don't know whom it belonged to. So we went 

to this farm near the Botswana border and slept in an empty 

house that night. The next day we all obtained weapons, 

these specific weapons. Some of these weapons issued to us, 

were inter alia, Scorpions fitted with silencers. I am 

saying inter alia Scorpions, if I remember correctly, we 

only had Scorpion weapons. On that same day the weapons 

were tested at that deserted farmhouse just to check that 

they were in good working order. 

&#9;The same night, the same evening we went to the 

Botswana border, where we drove along various dirt roads. I 

am not exactly sure of where the place was, and we walked 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;79&#9;CAPT MENTZ

through the veld. And we waited at a particular place until 

about one o'clock in the morning. We were all dressed in 

dark clothes. It wasn't camouflage type of uniform or 

clothes, it was just dark denim clothes and sweaters. 

&#9;I then heard that the person whose house and business 

it was, was one Mr Kahn. Later that night we crossed the 

river. There is a specific place where a type of a wall had 

been built and we crossed there. I had heard that there 

were crocodiles in the river. I was part of the so-called 

back-up team, Andre Andronowitz and myself. We walked right 

at the back. But at that particular place where we crossed 

the river, Eugene de Kock first waited for us all to cross 

and then he crossed, and then he passed us again. 

&#9;I was at the back the whole time to make sure that 

nobody was following us or pursuing us or that nobody saw 

us. Near the business premises and home, which was fenced 

around completely, and there was a type of an incline there, 

I couldn't see exactly what happened, but Col De Kock - I 

can't remember which leg it was, but he tore the ligament in 

his knee, near the shop, and after that he had to be 

carried.&#9;If I remember correctly, Louw van Niekerk and Douw 

Willemse stayed with him.

&#9;I entered a gate and I think on the left-hand side 

there was a black shack, asbestos shack, but they told me 

that the night watchman was there. I went past this place 

and after having passed the shack I heard the night watchman 

coming out. He must have heard something. He was shot 

there several times. He shouted - I can't remember who shot 

him, it was very dark and I had already passed that point. 

&#9;I was inside the premises to perform security and 

defence functions there and I went to the shop to see if 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;80&#9;CAPT MENTZ

there were any people there. The shop is on the left-hand 

side. I went around it and I was between the outside fence 

and the shop on the premises. The direction which I was 

facing was back towards the border of South Africa.

&#9;From the members went into the house next to the shop 

and people were shot. The people, I think Marthinus Ras 

Jnr, he was in the house, he went into the house. I think 

Willie Nortje as well and others. I can't remember exactly 

who, but I am virtually certain of these two. 

&#9;I later heard that an Indian man, his wife and two 

children had been killed in this operation or died in the 

operation. They were sleeping. They were shot, explosives 

were placed in the house. 

&#9;Yes, Willie Nortje now works for National Intelligence. 

He is also a State witness and he was one of the people who 

went into the house. 

&#9;Whilst after we had moved away from the house for some 

distance the house exploded, was blown-up. The explosion 

took place whilst we were already moving back towards the 

border. Nobody knew - when I say nobody I mean Lieut Ras, 

Marthinus Ras Jnr, he knew who was inside the house. It was 

his information and the security branch Zeerust. It was 

information I didn't know. 

&#9;Specifically who were in the house - the instructions 

were that the residents had to be eliminated because there 

might be terrorists in the house. There was no information 

available beforehand that there would be children in the 

house and nobody expected any children in the house. If I 

had known that children would be shot dead I would probably 

have had a problem to continue with the operation. But I 

would like to add here that I would still have gone along 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;81&#9;CAPT MENTZ

with the operation, I wouldn't have taken place in cross-

border operations after being told that children could 

possibly be killed. I would have had a problem with that, 

but I wouldn't have told De Kock and them no, I am not going 

with.

ADV DU PLESSIS: What effect would that have had if you had 

told them no, you weren't going to go with them, that you 

refuse?

CAPT MENTZ: Well, in the first place I already knew of a 

cross-border operation which was to take place. I don't 

know what they would have done with me, but they could have 

eliminated me, because perhaps I had become a risk through 

knowing too much or they could have transferred me. But I 

would have been worked out of Vlakplaas. 

&#9;If I can describe it like this: such as a platoon 

which had to march, and if you take out the marker or a 

specific person then the platoon is no longer functional, it 

doesn't have sufficient people. So I just went along with 

the stream.

&#9;I personally would not have shot an innocent child 

there, but as I have already testified, I didn't go into the 

dwelling house. I was just securing the area around the 

house. I would have gone along in a group context, as I 

have already said.

&#9;I still have a problem with this operation, I think 

about the children who were shot, and I don't live 

comfortably with this fact. 

&#9;If I could put it this way; it won't comfort me in any 

way, but at that time I tried to deal with this, and I told 

myself that the Defence Force did aerial raids across the 

borders, also on foot, and there were other operations as 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;82&#9;CAPT MENTZ

well where innocent civilians were killed. 

&#9;Furthermore, the terrorists planted bombs in the 

Republic, landmines as well, and children and innocent 

civilians were also killed in those incidents, and that is 

the way in which I tried to deal with this incident.

&#9;As I have already testified, Vlakplaas was the military 

wing of the security police, of the South African Police for 

the government of the day, the National Party.

JUDGE WILSON: And Vlakplaas was called in to perform 

precisely these sort of operations? Is that correct?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.&#9;When we left the premises, I 

was once again part of the back-up team. I can remember that 

we struggled to carry De Kock because he was a big man. So 

we progressed quite slowly. Andronovitch I once again 

walked quite fast or slow jog and we kept looking back 

towards the Kahn house. I can remember that there were other 

lights close to this particular place, and I thought that 

this must be a little village or something. We had to check 

that we weren't being followed or that somebody close to the 

premises had seen or heard us. That is what I meant when I 

said I was part of the back-up team on our way back. 

&#9;We once again crossed the river to the vehicles. We 

had already reached the vehicles when the place was blown 

up. As I said we were already in the Republic at that 

stage.

&#9;We then went back to the farmhouse, from which we were 

operating. After which we packed our stuff and early the 

next morning - I remember we didn't sleep. Early the next 

morning we drove to Richards Bay to constitute an alibi for 

us. Col De Kock was lying on the back seat because his leg

 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;83&#9;CAPT MENTZ

was injured. I drove the vehicle. I think we bandaged his 

leg but he didn't get any medical treatment for his leg. We 

just drove to Richards Bay with him in that condition. In 

Richards Bay there were other members that had already 

booked places and made arrangements and preparations for our 

accommodation. This was under the command of Warrant 

Officer Piet Botha. He is now Capt Piet Botha.

&#9;They rented rooms for us and they would have done 

things to our beds to make the cleaners believe that we had 

actually slept in the bed. As I have said, that was to have 

an alibi.

&#9;As I saw the operation it was essential to eliminate 

this passage used by terrorists. I gave no orders and I only 

acted on instructions and orders.

&#9;The persons who were killed, four persons, including 

the two children. The names of the persons are unknown to 

me. As far as I can remember it was the Kahn family and 

their house had been blown up. It was only the home which 

had been blown up, not the shop.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, general motivation on page 74 

to page - top of page 81, do you confirm the correctness of 

that? On page 81, the second paragraph, you explain the 

political motivation. Can you just read that for us, 

please, the motive.

CAPT MENTZ: The motive in which I acted was in the 

execution of my orders. It was also for the protection of 

innocent people and elimination of activists. This was 

necessary in the light of the war that was raging then. 

This incident happened during the political unrest during 

that period. The whole land was burning. There were all 

sorts of problems, arson and other crimes that were 

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ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;84&#9;CAPT MENTZ

committed in the name of the liberation movements against 

the State and the destabilisation of the State.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The next page, page 82 at the top.

CAPT MENTZ: The aim was as explained above, because 

liberation movements acted against the State and to resist 

their actions of overthrowing the State. It was also 

against activists. It would frighten them to act actively. 

I also at all times acted under the command of De Kock. As 

I have already said, Capt Ras Jnr, it was his information 

and his co-ordination. He will also come and testify to 

that extent.

&#9;The elimination of the activists and the safe house was 

necessary in the light of the fact that the activists were 

involved in serious acts of terror. It was necessary to 

eliminate these activists to stabilise society.

&#9;It was furthermore necessary to protect the lives of 

innocent people, black and white. It was impossible at that 

stage to neutralise activists completely by ways of the 

Security Act or normal police action. It was imperative to 

act preventatively in foreign countries.

ADV DU PLESSIS: On page 83, you are asked an explanation or 

your explanation regarding financial gain. 

CAPT MENTZ: Quite a while after the operation, I will say 

approximately three or four weeks afterwards, Willie Nortje 

came to me and handed me an envelope, all the other people 

involved also received such an envelope. If I can remember 

correctly, there was R6 000,00 in that envelope. He said 

that it was for that operation and that the main branch 

congratulated us on it.

&#9;I regarded that as a reward for that specific operation 

and for the reason that at that stage the National Party, 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

&#9;85&#9;CAPT MENTZ

the Government of the day would not officially have been 

able to give us medals for bravery for over border 

operations and so on. We saw that we were not receiving 

medals for it but they gave us monetary rewards. That was 

the first and the last time.

JUDGE WILSON: What bravery was there in shooting four 

civilians who were asleep, that you thought you deserved a 

medal?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I did not expect a medal, it was an 

over-border operation, in a different country, which was the 

enemy of the National Party, the Government of the day. If 

we were caught there by the Army of Botswana or the police 

or terrorists, they would have shot us.

JUDGE WILSON: Was Botswana the enemy of South Africa?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair.

JUDGE WILSON: You've just said so, you said a foreign 

country that was an enemy of the government of the day?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, then I would like to correct 

that. They supported the enemies of the South African 

Government in housing these terrorists. They allowed these 

people to use their country for operations against the South 

African Government.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, were you told anything 

beforehand with regards to extra remuneration?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Was the payment at all a motive for your 

involvement in the operation?

CAPT MENTZ: No, not at all.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Alright. What did you think about this 

when you were paid for the operation, with regards to the 

higher officers and the main office, what did you think they 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;86&#9;CAPT MENTZ

accomplished by this?

CAPT MENTZ: It was their way of, in the first place, 

showing us that it had been an approved main office 

operation, and that they wanted to thank us in this way for 

destroying this house and for the fact that this route would 

not have been used again.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And Capt Mentz, under whose command did you 

act?

CAPT MENTZ: Under Eugene de Kock and the other officers 

there, who were present there.

JUDGE WILSON: How was the payment made?

ADV DU PLESSIS: It was at Vlakplaas ...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: No you misunderstand was it by cheque, was it 

in cash?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, it was cash in a sealed brown 

envelope.

JUDGE WILSON: Given to you by one of the people who had 

participated in the operation?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chair, Willie Nortjé. For 

example, we never stood in a long queue to receive our 

envelopes. We were called to the side one by one. I, for 

example, had to go to Nortjé's office. He closed the door 

and then he gave the envelope to me, but I know that other 

people also received money.

JUDGE MALL: Are you finished?

ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

JUDGE WILSON: Mr Mpshe, have the relations of the victims 

been notified in this case?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, no. Mr Chairman, attempts were 

made to trace the relations, Mr Chairman, and the only thing 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV MPSHE&#9;87&#9;CAPT MENTZ

that I could lay my hands on was the Sowetan newspaper 

report, wherein this Kahn family was reported about by a 

person who was a - by a Black woman who was working for 

them, and at that time she made a report when she was in 

Botswana. I could not make any traces as to families in 

Botswana. It was only a report in the newspaper.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you enquire from the Government and other 

such things? If they owned a shop, a large shop, we are 

told, somebody presumably wound up the estate?

ADV MPSHE: I did not make enquiries in the Botswana 

Government, but I am making enquiries with the ANC desk and 

they did not have any particulars about the Kahn family, 

save they also referred me to the World newspaper report.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, I am not asking that. Surely when 

somebody dies like this, who owns property, the estate would 

have been wound up and there would be a record kept in the 

relevant department as to what had been done with the 

assets; had that been paid to members of the family, you 

would have got the names of them.

ADV MPSHE: Yes, that may be so, but I did not make any 

enquiries with the Botswana Government.

JUDGE MALL: Are there any questions you would like to put, 

Mr Mpshe?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE: Yes, sir. Was it necessary 

for the night watchman to be killed? In other words was it 

not possible for him just to be caught and bound and put 

back into his shack and go on with the operation?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I was not involved in that. I don't 

even know who shot the man, but I can remember that he 

screamed and that he was then shot. They wanted to silence 

him to prevent him from warning other terrorists who might 

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ADV MPSHE&#9;88&#9;CAPT MENTZ

have been in the house. The persons who shot him had to act 

quickly to silence him. I don't even know if he possibly 

helped ANC freedom fighters or terrorists. I don't know.

ADV MPSHE: You said in your application that you wouldn't 

have killed the children yourself. Am I understanding you 

to be saying that the death of these two children was 

uncalled for?

CAPT MENTZ: If De Kock or Marthinus Ras had told me 

beforehand that there were going to be children in the house 

and that we were going to shoot them, and if he told me I 

had to do it, I would have told them I won't. But as I have 

testified I would still have gone with. I am sorry about 

these children who were shot. I don't know, I don't even 

know how old they were. I also don't know whether or not 

they gave the terrorists staying over there that night, if 

they gave them food. I didn't know anything beforehand, but 

as I have already said if they had told me that I was to 

shoot those children I would not have done it.

ADV MPSHE: Are you telling us that the killing of these 

children was uncalled for, according to you?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that is possible.

ADV MPSHE: Are you also asking for amnesty as far as the 

death of the two children is concerned, not so?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct. Because after I had heard 

that there were children in the house, and that was after we 

had crossed the border again, after we were back at our 

vehicles in the Republic, we were talking about who did 

what. I just heard that the children were sleeping. Up to 

today I do not know how old they were. I do have a problem 

with that but I apply for amnesty for them. Because 

afterwards we all know the law. I associated myself with 

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their death and therefore I am as guilty as the person who 

shot them.

ADV MPSHE: Now if you are asking for amnesty in respect of 

the death of these two children, what political motivation 

do you attach to the death of the two children?

CAPT MENTZ: As I have said, they could have favoured 

liberation movements, they could have helped these people, 

given them food.

JUDGE WILSON: They might three and four years old, as far 

as you knew, how can you make speculations like that?

JUDGE MALL: I honestly think that you should avoid 

speculating to that extent. You have no idea as to whether 

they were infants or what. I think the answer should really 

be just exactly what you know and not what your conjecture 

is, please.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, were you advised at any stage of the 

ages of the children concerned when you discussed the 

incident? On your way back you were told that the children 

had been killed. Were their ages indicated to you?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you bother to ask to see whether they 

might have participated?

CAPT MENTZ: I never asked.

ADV MPSHE: May I continue, Mr Chairman? Thank you. I 

haven't heard the answer to my question. What political 

motivation do you attach to the death of the two children, 

if you were "vereenselwig" yourself with what the people 

did?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, this home belonged to their father, 

Mr Kahn. This house was used for terrorists. The children, 

I can't speculate, but they were under the influence of 

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ADV MPSHE&#9;90&#9;CAPT MENTZ

their parents. It doesn't matter how old they were, they 

were part of the operation. Their house was blown up. The 

aim was to destroy this place, as I have said, to eliminate 

terrorists and to prevent them from using this as an

entrance route, and that is why they were killed.

ADV MPSHE: I won't pursue that because you are again 

speculating as to what you think was the position. Let us 

go back to the Kahn family, the husband and the wife. Were 

they labelled or were they investigated and proved as being 

activists in Botswana?

CAPT MENTZ: As I have already said, they were - it was the 

security branch of Western Transvaal and specifically 

Zeerust, Capt Marthinus Ras Jnr was working in that area at 

that stage. They would have made sure by means of source 

reports that the people who were doing business on those 

premises, favoured liberation movements and helped them 

financially, that they received food, they received 

information. I accepted this and I accepted that this place 

was used for that specific purpose.

ADV MPSHE: I don't want to believe that you were told or 

instructed by Eugene de Kock, and others, Willie Nortjé, 

that come with us, we are going to do an operation in 

Botswana and you were not told as to the specifics and as to 

what has been investigated and found before you could go 

with them. Is that what happened?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, as I have already testified, we 

were told that the place was an entrance route at places 

where terrorists could overnight, where terrorists were 

helped. They received information there, information was 

transferred there, and it was an operation. At Vlakplaas I 

never worked with files. I was a foot soldier. I was in a 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV MPSHE&#9;91&#9;CAPT MENTZ

war against liberation movements for the Government of the 

day. I accepted that since these orders came from the head 

office, that they would have made sure that this information 

was correct. It was not just simply decided we are bored 

and therefore we have to go over the border and destroy the 

house. It came from the top. I believed that they knew what 

they were doing. I never doubted the orders that came from 

the top.

ADV MPSHE: Let me confine it because whenever I ask a 

question and then you go very wide on my question. I will 

confine you to what I want you to tell me, to tell this 

Committee. Was the Kahn family eliminated because they were 

activists or terrorists in Botswana or because they were 

housing terrorists in Botswana?

CAPT MENTZ: They were aiding, helping terrorists. I do not 

know to which party they belonged, but according to me, if 

you helped a terrorist, you do conform yourself to the 

struggle, to the liberation movement. They were activists 

against the South African Government.

ADV MPSHE: Yes, that may be so but helping a terrorist or 

an activist doesn't necessarily mean that you are also a 

terrorist or an activist. Is that not the position?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, I see it differently. If you 

helped a terrorist movement at that stage you were in my 

books, also part of the struggle and a terrorist.

ADV MPSHE: Let me take you back to the Ribeiro matter, I 

think the same facts in the Ribeiro matter would also come 

in here. Yes, I am told you were not involved in the 

Ribeiro matter, but you were present when the evidence was 

given and cross-examination was done on this Ribeiro matter. 

That day, it was established that Dr Ribeiro himself was 

not CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV MPSHE&#9;92&#9;CAPT MENTZ

an activist but assisted activists and terrorists medically. 

How do you respond to that one?

MR DU PLESSIS OBJECTS: Mr Chairman, with respect, I don't 

want to inhibit my learned friend, but I don't understand 

the relevance of that question. I don't understand why the 

Ribeiro matter is raised here and I don't understand the 

reason for the questioning. I object against the question.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, it is very easy to understand. The 

witness has just testified that if you assist an activist or 

a terrorist, it means you associate yourself with that and 

you may be an activist yourself. Now I am sketching out the 

Ribeiro incident in that it was found the opposite in the 

Ribeiro matter, not by this Committee, but the evidence 

...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: But Mr Mpshe, then perhaps you should put the 

whole story. There was also evidence that they assisted 

them financially to go out of the country and assisted them 

financially after their return.

ADV MPSHE: That is correct, that was the evidence given. 

But the point I am trying to make here, is that the fact 

that he was assisting them financially and medically, did 

not make him an activist. As the witness says if you do 

assist, then you are one.

JUDGE MALL: I think Mr Mpshe, on that point you can 

address us on when the time comes, in the Ribeiro case.

ADV MPSHE: As it pleases the Committee.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you. Thank you, Mr Chairman, that will 

sum up my questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE WILSON: One of the problems I have with the evidence 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON&#9;93&#9;CAPT MENTZ

here, and in other instances, is you continually say you 

were a foot soldier. You merely carried out the 

instructions of the generals.

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: And you took part in the killings of numbers 

of people. You can't even remember what year this was in. 

This was somewhere between 1989 and 1992.

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: That is the impact it had on you. Why did 

you people never take the trouble to do a little 

reconnaissance?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, as I have already testified, Capt 

Marthinus Ras who worked in that area, close to the border, 

together with the other security branches, would have made 

sure beforehand what was going on. They would have checked 

where we were going through, they would have verified with 

the informants, that this Kahn business cum house was used 

...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: These are lovely excuses. They were not 

checking what was happening that night, Ras was with you, he 

wasn't checking, was he?

CAPT MENTZ: We were not waiting and sent him over to find 

out what was going on. All of us went together.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but why did you Vlakplaas hit squad who 

was brought in from Vlakplaas to the Western Cape, the 

Eastern Cape, Eastern Transvaal, all over the country to 

kill, why didn't you check first? You did not know who was 

sleeping in that house that night. You made no effort.

CAPT MENTZ: I didn't.

JUDGE WILSON: The whole of your unit made no effort to find 

out. There might have been a doctor who was treating 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON&#9;94&#9;CAPT MENTZ

someone who had been brought in urgently ill, or a nurse or 

a priest. You didn't know. You went in and killed the 

people you found in the houses. Why did you not bother to 

check up to make sure there were not innocent people, and in 

this case you would have found there were two children?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, Marthinus Ras would, together with 

the local security branch, have verified this information, 

but we didn't go over first to make sure. We expected 

terrorists.

JUDGE WILSON: He was with you, you were all together that 

afternoon, you all went there together. Nobody, it is quite 

obvious, nobody was checking up and nobody did in the other 

cases. Why not? I am not asking for a motive for the 

attack, I am asking for the actual mechanism. You are going 

to attack a house. You are going to shoot the people in it 

and blow it up. Why did you never take the trouble to find 

out who precisely was in that house, which you could have 

done in most instances, by just watching the house for the 

afternoon.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it was in a different country. 

Marthinus Ras' amnesty application is already before you. I 

will request the Committee to ask him these questions, 

because he was in control of this operation, together with 

the security branch. There might also be other applications 

...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: You were the Vlakplaas hit squad brought in 

to do the killings.

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Why did the Vlakplaas hit squad not check up 

on what they were attacking? Why do you always try to put 

the blame on somebody else.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON&#9;95&#9;CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: I refer here to Marthinus Ras who was with me 

in the Vlakplaas hit squad, it was his operation. I 

accepted that he would have made sure.

JUDGE WILSON: I thought he was in the Western Transvaal 

Special Branch?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, he was also at Vlakplaas, but he 

worked in the Western Transvaal/Botswana district, from 

Vlakplaas.

JUDGE WILSON: So you agree, you made no effort to check up 

who was in the houses before you attacked them?

CAPT MENTZ: No, I didn't.

JUDGE WILSON: The whole of your Vlakplaas unit, not just 

you individually.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairman, Marthinus Ras would - he was not

all the time with me, he would have made sure.

JUDGE WILSON: He was with you that afternoon and evening, 

he wasn't checking up.

CAPT MENTZ: From the time we came to the farm, yes. But I 

did not go there with him. We weren't driving there in - 

together, so I don't know if he checked beforehand.

JUDGE WILSON: But he was with you at the farm, he wasn't 

watching the place. The other cases we heard, you didn't 

check on beforehand, did you? It was not your practice.

CAPT MENTZ: No, we acted on a source information from other 

branches.

JUDGE MGOEPE: On page 71, the third paragraph or the last 

paragraph there, that sentence reads "that nobody knew who 

were in the house before the house was entered." what does 

that mean?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, when I read this sentence I added to 

that, I said nobody knew who was in the house, but I believe 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MGOEPE&#9;96&#9;CAPT MENTZ

that Marthinus Ras would have known. We weren't told. When 

I testified in main I extended on that, expanded on that.

JUDGE MGOEPE: On what basis do you believe that Ras would 

he have known?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, because I spoke to Marthinus Ras 

during this week and he told that his application - I don't 

know if it is here yet, but he says he explains it in his 

application who knew and who didn't know.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Further on you say,

&#9;&#9;"There was no information that there had been 

children in the house, and nobody expected 

children in the house".

what time did the attack take place?

CAPT MENTZ: It was after one in the morning.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Surely you would have expected that children 

would be there in the house at that time?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair now that I think back, yes, but I 

didn't know that there were going to be children in the 

house. I knew that Kahn and the terrorists in the house 

would have been eliminated and that the place would then be 

blown up to destroy the buildings.

JUDGE MGOEPE: If the Kahn had children where would you 

expect their children to be at that time of the day?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, in the house?

JUDGE MGOEPE: You see this sentence of yours that there was 

no evidence that there were children in the house, is 

puzzling. The real question should have been, was there 

information that there were no children in the house, isn't 

it so?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, that is correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Because one would have expected that time of 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MGOEPE&#9;97&#9;CAPT MENTZ

the night that children should be in the house.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, I admit that, that's true, but I 

thought there was going to be Mr Kahn and the terrorists.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Was there any real concerns about the safety 

of children in the house, was there any serious concern on 

the part of your team?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, there was never any talk of 

children being in the house. It was never discussed. I 

don't know if specifically the people who were in the house 

who shot the people there, then discussed it amongst 

themselves, but it was never mentioned before we reached the 

farm house. I was the back-up, I was never told that. It 

was never discussed, but I don't know if, whether or not 

they discussed it beforehand, those people who went in the 

house, if they knew this, but I am sure that Marthinus Ras 

will come and explain this.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And what you do know, you say here is that 

there were instructions that the occupants of the house be 

eliminated?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And nothing further was said about the 

children, as far as you can remember?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, terrorists were expected in the 

house.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE WILSON: Where in Botswana was this?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I am not exactly sure, but Col Roelf 

Venter testified, I think they - he spoke about Derdepoort. 

This rings a bell somewhere that it could have been in this 

area, the Derdepoort border post. I have never been there. 

I am not one hundred per cent sure, but it could have been 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON&#9;98&#9;CAPT MENTZ

in that area.

JUDGE WILSON: Can you give us a little more indication 

where Derdepoort is? I don't know if any of the 

Commissioners know.

ADV DE JAGER: Is it from Rustenburg on the road to 

Nietverdiend where Herman Charles Bosman lived?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, no, I think it is, if you drive to 

Zeerust you pass through Zeerust, and there somewhere to the 

right. If you turn to the right outside of Zeerust, there is 

a border post, but it is not that one, it is on a dirt road 

before you get Zeerust, in the Botswana direction. I think 

there somewhere, there is a border post somewhere there as 

well.

ADV DE JAGER: How far is this from Vlakplaas approximately?

CAPT MENTZ: To Zeerust? 

ADV DE JAGER: Is it in the vicinity of 2 to 300 

kilometres?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Did you ever serve in that area?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair.

ADV DE JAGER: You were never stationed thereabouts?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

ADV DE JAGER: You never investigated any routes there?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, I only once accompanied De Kock 

to Mmabato, Mafekeng.

ADV DE JAGER: (Indistinct - not translated).

CAPT MENTZ: He went to pay an informant from Botswana 

there.

ADV DE JAGER: When were you transferred to Vlakplaas?

CAPT MENTZ: It was the 1st of August 1989.

ADV DE JAGER: That was after you met De Kock when you 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DE JAGER&#9;99&#9;CAPT MENTZ

arrested one of his Vlakplaas unit members for murder in 

South Africa?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct, it was Almond Nofemela.

ADV MPSHE: Perhaps to help the Committee Mr Chairman 

Derdepoort, as the witness has correctly stated, before you 

can reach Zeerust, there is a turn-off at the Groot Marico, 

just over the bridge, you turn right into Groot Marico and 

then it takes you through to the Swartruggens area, 

Derdepoort is just around there. It was the border of 

Botswana.

JUDGE WILSON: A very long way from Richards Bay.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, Richards Bay, we went there 

afterwards to create an alibi.

MS KHAMPEPE: Can you probably throw more light why you 

chose Richards Bay all the way from North West?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it was to make sure that nobody could 

have seen us in the vicinity or in the area, because then 

they could have concluded that we were in the vicinity and 

there was an attack at the house. 

ADV DE JAGER: It is approximately the farthest place you 

can come or you can go in South Africa from Derdepoort.

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chair. The morning when we 

drove away we were told for the first time that we were 

going to Richards Bay. That's why I say we never had all 

the details of the operation, but the people in command, 

like De Kock and Basson, they knew. 

ADV DE JAGER: When did you realise or were told for the 

first time that children were shot dead?

CAPT MENTZ: It was the evening when we went over the river 

and when we got in the vehicle, when the place blew up, it 

was said that children were also shot. I don't know who shot 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DE JAGER&#9;100&#9;CAPT MENTZ

them, but we were told they were shot.

ADV DE JAGER: You heard after they had been shot?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair.

MS KHAMPEPE: The purpose for which this operation was 

executed, was to close the gateway for the terrorists into 

and out of the borders of the Republic of South Africa. I 

would be correct in summarising the purpose in that way?

CAPT MENTZ: That is right. Also to kill terrorists that we 

might have found there, but there weren't any.

MS KHAMPEPE: And this Mr Kahn was aiding and abetting the 

terrorists. Now when did you become aware that the person 

who was aiding and abetting the terrorists was this certain 

Mr Khan? Was that before you were on your way to Gaberone, 

whilst things were being prepared, or were you told this 

information as you were travelling and crossing all the 

rivers full of crocodiles into Botswana?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, we were told this while we were 

at Vlakplaas. We were told that there was a house in 

Botswana - for the purposes as I have already explained - 

which had to be blown up and eliminated. But I didn't have 

any source files from Zeerust or the Western Transvaal.

MS KHAMPEPE: Who told you, was it Marthinus Ras Jnr?

CAPT MENTZ: It might have been either Ras or De Kock, but I 

think it would rather have been De Kock. He was our 

commander and he would have told this to us. He would have 

told us that.

MS KHAMPEPE: Did you think it relevant at that stage to ask 

for more details about Mr Kahn to find out more about his 

marital status, to find out more about who the occupants of 

the house were?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, I never received orders from De 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

MS KHAMPEPE&#9;101&#9;CAPT MENTZ

Kock with regards to covert offensive or defensive 

operations. Because he had been the commanding officer and 

liaised with us, as well as with security head office, I 

never questioned this. I believed that it would have been 

proved by head office and police and that those people would 

have made sure that the information is correct. I never 

asked questions.

JUDGE WILSON: You felt no responsibility to do that?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, my seniors - I believed my 

seniors would have done that.

JUDGE MALL: I just want to clear up a point which worries 

me too. When the decision to attack this house and property 

was made known to you, were you told specifically that there 

were going to be terrorists in that house at the time you 

were going to attack, or was that a matter of no concern? 

You knew that there was a house, you knew that there was an 

owner and according to you, it was known that that owner 

provided succour to terrorists and so on, and so it didn't 

matter whether there were terrorists or not, you were going 

to blow up this house, irrespective of - even though there 

were no terrorists there? Was that the plan?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I was brought under the impression 

that there might have been terrorists there. But the house 

had to be blown up.

JUDGE MALL: There might have been terrorists and even if 

there were no terrorists the house had to be blown up. 

That's the point.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, the place had to be destroyed so 

that it could not be used again in the future.

JUDGE MALL: Yes, so even if there were no terrorists, that 

house and the family that occupied this house, had to be 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MALL&#9;102&#9;CAPT MENTZ

eliminated, had to be killed.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Captain on page 69, you say that - I might 

have missed something here - the purpose of the operation 

had been to eliminate a shop and a large business. Is this 

what happened eventually?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it must read the house. The people 

weren't sleeping in the shop, the house had to be blown up.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am told that in your evidence, you added 

"and the house". In other words it would have said that the 

aim of the operation was to eliminate "a house, a shop and a 

large business".

CAPT MENTZ: What I meant to say was that it was a business 

complex, there was a shop, but the house at the business 

complex, I mean, the house had to be eliminated.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But there must be a shop and then a business 

premises in which people would not be sleeping, people would 

be sleeping in the house.

CAPT MENTZ: That is what I meant. Let's say it was a 

smallholding with a shop and a house next to it on one 

premises, the house was next to the shop.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What troubles me is whether you did stick to 

the mandate? Were you told to eliminate the shop and the 

business, which is something quite distinct from the house?

CAPT MENTZ: No, this is a mistake. The order was to 

destroy the house. There was no attempt to burn down the 

house - ag, pardon, the business.

JUDGE MGOEPE: It is not just one word that we are dealing 

with here, we are dealing with quite a number of points. A 

shop and a large business, you in fact even described the 

business, shop and business, described as a big business or 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MGOEPE&#9;103&#9;CAPT MENTZ

something.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, there was only one business on the 

premises. There was only a shop. There was no garage or 

whatever else.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But you see when you initially compiled your 

application you knew that the people were killed in the 

house, isn't it? You knew that the people were killed in 

the house.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Now how could you have by accident have 

omitted also to say that the house was also to be attacked, 

and instead only mentioned the shop and the business?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, but just at the end of this paragraph 

it is mentioned that it was used for a liaising house. It 

might have been the case, but we never attempted to destroy 

the shop.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I am trying to understand the basis on which 

you could possibly have made this kind of mistake when you 

compiled your application. How could you have forgotten to 

mention the house, when in fact you knew then already that 

the people were killed in the house. How could you have 

forgotten also to mention that the house was also to be 

attacked?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, we sat late at night in drawing up 

these affidavits. We had to take it to the police the next

morning. It could have slipped in there.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well let's see what you mean, are you 

saying that you were also, you were instructed also to 

eliminate the shop and the business?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, what I mean here ... 

(intervention).

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;104&#9;CAPT MENTZ

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, can I please come in here. 

You will see on page 71, specifically - specifically in page 

71 there is a clear distinction between the house and the 

shop; explosives were put in the house and the inhabitants 

were shot in the house, nobody knew who was in the house. I 

was inside the premises and I looked into the shop to see if 

there were not people there. So he draws the distinction 

there later on. I just want to point that out in all 

fairness Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I know that, I know that they attacked the 

house, isn't it?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, but the line of 

questioning, with respect, was that he never mentioned in 

his application the house. I just wanted to clear that up.

JUDGE MGOEPE: No. No, that is not the line of my 

questioning.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, then I misunderstood.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Initially I did so, but my attention was 

drawn to the fact that he did mention the house.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, then I misunderstood it. Thank you Mr 

Chairman.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes. Now I am going back to page 69. You 

said that the shop and business were to be eliminated. Or 

do you want to delete that or that whole portion?

CAPT MENTZ: If the Committee would allow me, I just want to 

reiterate, what I meant was this is a business premises, 

with one shop on it. It was only one shop where food and 

other things were sold. There were no other businesses. 

The shop and the premises with the shop on it, is business 

premises and next to that was a house. I expressed myself 

 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MGOEPE&#9;105&#9;CAPT MENTZ

wrongly.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Yes, well that will leave us with a shop, 

that there was a shop, isn't it. Now I am asking you 

whether your instructions were to attack that shop or 

whether we should also cancel, delete the shop as well, and 

leave only the house.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, no, we only had to attack the home or 

the house where the people ...(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: And the shop and the business are all a 

mistake.

CAPT MENTZ: .... where the terrorists might have 

been....(intervention)

JUDGE MGOEPE: They should not have been here.

CAPT MENTZ: We weren't ordered to burn down the house, 

there was no explosives - there was only explosives for the 

house.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Are you sure that this is a mistake, wasn't 

this actually the order that you go and blow up a shop and 

instead of blowing the shop you people deviated and then 

attacked the house?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, the order was Kahn, the house and 

terrorists. The people there had to be eliminated, the 

house had to be blown up. It was never said that while you 

people are going to attack the house, others had to burn 

down the shop. That was never said.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Well I've noted your point, you are you 

saying that all this was a mistake and we could just as well 

delete that, but I must tell you that I cannot understand 

how you could have made this kind of mistake.

JUDGE MALL: Can you recall who conveyed to you precisely 

what you were supposed to do, what you were supposed to 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MALL&#9;106&#9;CAPT MENTZ

destroy? Who told you precisely, was it De Kock, was it 

Ras?

CAPT MENTZ: No, it was De Kock.

JUDGE MALL: Was he conveying his remarks to you personally 

or to the group as a whole?

CAPT MENTZ: At the farmhouse there was a quick meeting and 

it was told to me, if I remember correctly, you and 

Andronowitz must stay behind all the time, to make sure that 

we are not being pursued or attacked from behind. I was on 

my way there and I stayed behind all the time and the same 

on our way back, I stayed right at the back.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. No, I am concerned about the instructions 

as to what was to be destroyed, when that was being told, 

was that told to you personally or was that told to the 

group that you are going there to destroy this, that or the 

other?

CAPT MENTZ: No, it was given to the group that the house 

had to be attacked, terrorists and Kahn had to be 

eliminated, we had to set explosives. If I remember 

correctly the explosives were set in the main bedroom and 

then we left the area. But we were never told you, you and 

you must shoot the children. That was never said.

JUDGE MALL: No, I wasn't thinking about that. I know what 

you were told that you and Andronowitz were to stay behind 

or follow from the rear.

CAPT MENTZ: No, there was a group meeting beforehand.

JUDGE MALL: Yes I heard they had a group meeting, their 

instructions were that you were going to destroy certain 

things.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MALL: When you left Vlakplaas you didn't know what 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MALL&#9;107&#9;CAPT MENTZ

you were going to do. Is that it?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson. At Vlakplaas we were told 

that we were going to jump the fence into Botswana and that 

there was a house which the terrorists were using. So we 

knew we were going to operate in Botswana. That we knew.

JUDGE WILSON: Were you told that after the operation you 

were going to go and establish an alibi?

CAPT MENTZ: No, as I said, that morning after we finished 

and we came to the farmhouse, we decided we would go to 

Richards Bay to constitute an alibi. That was told to us 

then.

JUDGE WILSON: Where did you get the clothing to go and 

create your alibi in Richards Bay? Here you were all 

dressed in dark denim clothing, which would have stood out 

like a sore thumb in Richards Bay, wouldn't it?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, but as I testified earlier, at 

Vlakplaas if you left to go and do a job you sometimes were 

absent for two or three weeks. So we always carried clothes 

with us, other, a change of clothes. We only put on the dark 

clothes there on the farm. For the rest we had normal, we 

wore normal clothes, we never wore uniforms.

JUDGE WILSON: So all of you had enough clothing to last for 

some time?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, you have given evidence that you 

cannot sleep even up to this day because of your 

participation in the killing of the children, which is still 

weighing heavily on your shoulders.

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I was involved in several things 

which affected me, and at times I have to use sleeping 

tablets to be able to sleep. These things affected me. I 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

MS KHAMPEPE&#9;108&#9;CAPT MENTZ

can't say it was only this case or another case. Each and 

every time when you talk about these things it all comes 

back to you and then the whole thing starts afresh.

MS KHAMPEPE: How did you feel when you received the payment 

of R6 000,00 from Mr Nortjé, knowing that it was payment 

related to the killing of such children?

CAPT MENTZ: All of us received that, we all used it and I 

thought well, that's the way it worked and I used it, but I 

feel bad and I have remorse about the children. As I said, 

at the start of my evidence, the way I tried to deal with 

this and to make it easier for me, I use the example of the 

Defence Force with cross-border operations and aerial 

attacks and in the course of which innocent children are 

also killed. That's the way I try to explain it to myself 

or to justify it to myself, I don't know.

MS KHAMPEPE: Thank you.

JUDGE MALL: Any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, 

please. Capt Mentz, could we please go to page 23 of your 

application. Could you please read the last paragraph. 

CAPT MENTZ: I tried to make this application as detailed as 

possible. Any further elaboration on the facts will be done 

during my testifying before the Commission. Aspects such 

as, for instance, my motives and the objectives with which I 

pursued these acts will be more fully motivated during 

evidence. Due to constraints of time I stand by the 

contents of this application.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now Capt Mentz, since these applications 

were drafted, you have also talked about this with Marthinus 

Ras. Is that correct?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;109&#9;CAPT MENTZ

ADV DU PLESSIS: Have you spoken to any other people who 

were involved in this incident?

CAPT MENTZ: No, not one of them.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, the evidence which you have 

given about this incident here today, is that the truth?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, it is.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Is there any reason why you would lie to 

this Committee about the blowing up of the house or the 

blowing up of the shop or business complex? Is there any 

reason why you would want to tell a lie?

CAPT MENTZ: Not at all, Chairperson, that is why we are 

here.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Is there any benefit which you would derive 

from not telling the truth on that aspect?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson, if I don't tell the truth, I 

simply prejudice myself.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Are you satisfied that if the written 

portion of your application, if that does not set out the 

situation hundred per cent correctly, that you have now 

clarified the position before the Committee and that they 

have now heard the truth?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, the questions put to me by the Committee 

have clarified this.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, there are some questions about 

previous applications and also this application. Questions 

have been asked to yourself and other persons who were in 

subordinate positions and I would like to go into this in 

some detail to sketch the situation in the military context. 

The South African police at that stage, especially in 

Vlakplaas, which operated like a military unit, I would like 

the Committee to understand the customs and the practices. 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;110&#9;CAPT MENTZ

If a higher officer gives you an instruction during this 

period that we are now referring to, and I am specifically 

referring to this incident, would you have accepted that the 

instruction was given on the basis of information at the 

disposal of a senior officer?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And as I have already said, if De Kock gave 

you an instruction then I believed that it came from the 

general staff security police. 

CAPT MENTZ: I never doubted De Kock's instructions. I 

believed it came from head office. 

ADV DU PLESSIS: Is that how the system worked, Capt Mentz?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes. I never opposed De Kock or anything like 

that at that stage. 

ADV DU PLESSIS: For instance, let us sketch the situation, 

I would like the Committee to understand this. Could there 

have been a situation where you would meet and where the 

instructions were given and then the matter was discussed 

and then you would ask questions, you cross-examine the 

commanding officer to make sure that his information was 

correct. Would that have been a possible scenario?

CAPT MENTZ: I don't know, nobody ever questioned De Kock in 

my presence. We accepted that it came from head office. I 

never cross-questioned him.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And during your training, was that what you 

were taught, that instructions work in this way?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And during your training as a policeman were 

you not told to obey the law?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, but these were different circumstances.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, but you knew that this was not legal 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;111&#9;CAPT MENTZ

actions done by policemen during the course of their duties, 

didn't you?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman. Capt Mentz, if, 

for instance, you were to launch your own enquiry as a 

result of this information or your own investigation, would 

it firstly have been possible for you in your position to 

get information from the informers in the Western Transvaal, 

acting on your own?

CAPT MENTZ: No, because then I would have had to say to 

them no, you wait, just wait, don't do anything, I am now 

going to get into my car, drive to Western Transvaal and I 

want to get insight into all these things. It never 

happened and I couldn't do it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: What would your commanding officer's 

reactions have been if you had tried to do something like 

that?

CAPT MENTZ: That I didn't trust them or the security branch 

or the police. They would have worked me out. I would 

then have constituted a security risk for them.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, at that stage did you know 

about operations abroad done by the South African forces, 

Defence Force and Police?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Were you at that stage aware of the fact 

that South African Defence Force operated in South West 

Africa and in Angola?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you know about the police unit Koevoet 

in South West Africa?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;112&#9;CAPT MENTZ

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you know how they operated?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, everything.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you accept that that was part of the 

Government's policy, do you think the Government knew about 

this?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And did you accept that the Government 

approved of this?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Chairperson, we were never called in and 

told stop your activities or anything like that, so I 

believed that that was proved under the policy of the 

National Party to combat terrorism.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And in that light, in that context, the 

instruction which you received about this incident, did you 

consider this to be part of that context?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you regard it as justified in the 

circumstances?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did you regard it as an instruction from 

head office?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, as I have said earlier, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And Capt Mentz, your own subjective view 

about this matter, what were your views about the people in 

commanding positions at head office, who would have given 

these instructions and their knowledge of the operation?

CAPT MENTZ: I believed that the instructions came from 

them, they approved them and that was why it was carried 

out, and that it was done with the approval of the National 

Party.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you never whether there was a report 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;113&#9;CAPT MENTZ

sent back on this incident, back to head office?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Did anybody in your group involved in this 

operation, were they ever repudiated at any stage?

CAPT MENTZ: No, not one of us.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And that was the case, despite the fact 

that children had been killed?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct, and that's why they sent us 

money.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now about the issue of the children, I want 

to ask you one or two questions. Did you know, you 

yourself, did you know beforehand that the Kahn family had 

children?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know whether any of the other people 

involved in the operation knew that the Kahn family had 

children?

CAPT MENTZ: At that stage I didn't know, but now I do know. 

As a result of my conversation with Marthinus Ras, I now 

know that he knew.

ADV DU PLESSIS: That he knew that there were children?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, and that is what he will testify.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Where you were present, were there any 

discussions about children ever?

CAPT MENTZ: No, except when we crossed the river back into 

the Republic when the house was blown up, it was said that 

there were children.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, you were also asked about the 

possibility of reconnaissance operations beforehand to check 

out the scene there. Now in the circumstances reigning on 

that evening and the way in which the operation was carried 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;114&#9;CAPT MENTZ

out, and the area, would it have been possible, could it 

have been done easily?

CAPT MENTZ: No, as I testified earlier, we were not to be 

seen in that area. That's why we created the alibi, the 

Richards Bay alibi. If we had tried to go there earlier 

that day and drive around there and we had been seen, that 

would have blown the whole operation. That's why we stayed 

on the farm, we were not allowed to leave there. We only 

left there that night to go to that place.

JUDGE WILSON: If one person, presumably a black person had 

wandered around outside the shop, can you seriously say that 

would have blown the whole operation? I am not talking about 

the whole mob of you driving in your cars, waving your 

silenced guns. It was perfectly easy for you, from 

Vlakplaas, we have heard of all the askaris you have, to 

taken one and sent him quietly to just see who went in and 

out of the house. Wouldn't it have?

CAPT MENTZ: That is so, Chairperson, but perhaps it was 

done and perhaps I was not aware of it by the local security 

branch sources. I don't know about that though.

JUDGE WILSON: So if it was done, they went in knowing there 

were children in that house and determined to kill them. Is 

that what you are saying?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairperson, I don't know whether it was 

done, I can only testify about what I know, I can't testify 

on anybody's else's behalf.

JUDGE WILSON: If it was done, it means they went in knowing 

it?

CAPT MENTZ: It is possible, but I didn't know it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: What did you expect there, whom did you 

expect to find there? Could you answer?

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;115&#9;CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: Kahn and terrorists.

JUDGE WILSON: And Mrs Kahn?

CAPT MENTZ: Possibly, yes, I foresaw the possibility that 

she could be there.

JUDGE WILSON: You talk about the Kahn family. When you 

talk about a family you would normally think of children as 

well, don't you?

CAPT MENTZ: That is so. I didn't know that there were 

children. But, I have already said, that if at Vlakplaas I 

was told that there could possibly be children involved, 

then I would have had a problem with it, but I would still 

have gone along with the operation.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Do you know how old the children could have 

been or are you not at all aware?

CAPT MENTZ: No, until today I don't know.

ADV DU PLESSIS: No further questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

JUDGE WILSON: You said a moment ago that no one in your 

group was ever repudiated, but you took steps, we have heard 

from time to time, to avoid or to frustrate police 

investigation into some of the killings, didn't you?

CAPT MENTZ: That is so.

JUDGE MALL: Very well, thank you. We move onto some other 

aspect of the matter now, Mr Du Plessis.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, the next matter we wish 

to deal with is page 104, the happening at Penge Mine. Capt 

Mentz, please start on page 105, read that for us.

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I would just like to say that, if 

I remember correctly, this happened before the Brian 

Ngqulunga case, but I can't remember specific dates. 

Ngqulunga was July 1990, I think. If I remember correctly, 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;116&#9;CAPT MENTZ

this happened before that, and in my application I didn't 

know who the victim was in this case. The Attorney 

General's office, during our first session in Johannesburg, 

they asked and told me it was Johannes Maboti.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Du Plessis, I think this mine spelling is 

P-E-N-G-E, Penge Mine.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Chairperson.

JUDGE MALL: Proceed.

CAPT MENTZ: Col Eugene de Kock, I cannot remember the date, 

but it was after two in the afternoon, Eugene de Kock, Col 

Eugene de Kock gave the instructions to take him to 

Vereeniging in his vehicle, it was a Toyota Cressida. At 

that stage I didn't know exactly what it was all about. We 

went to a police station near Vereeniging. As far as I can 

remember, it was the De Deur police station. 

&#9;When we arrived there we met Warrant Officer Duiwel 

Brits. He was there in a brown Land Cruiser. Sgt Louw van 

Niekerk, Sgt Leon Floris. We were outside the police 

station and then another security branch policeman - I know 

he is a security branch in Vereeniging, but I don't know 

him. He came walking out of the police station with a Black 

askari. It was the first time that I had seen that 

particular askari. &#9;Col De Kock told him to come with and 

the security policeman from Vereeniging was then no longer 

with us. The askari got into the vehicle by himself, into 

Brits' vehicle, he was not forced to get into the vehicle. 

&#9;Col De Kock and I followed the Land Cruiser. I asked 

De Kock where we were going and he said we were going to 

Penge Mine to find out what the askari had to say. We then 

went from Vereeniging on the freeway as far as Pretoria and 

then on the Witbank freeway. On the other side of Boschkop 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;117&#9;CAPT MENTZ

we took a turn-off to the left and then it becomes a gravel 

road. Here I want to make a correction. Where it says the 

askari was tied up, that's wrong. I will point that out 

now.&#9;When we stopped on the dirt road and I got out of the 

car and I went to the vehicle I then saw that the askari was 

tied up. I then inferred that they had tied him up whilst we 

were driving. I mean his hands were cuffed or something.

&#9;At that stage I wasn't quite certain of the purpose of 

this operation, what was to happen to him, but my conclusion 

was that the askari had been detained at the police station 

in De Deur and I believed that he would probably be killed 

because he was an ANC or PAC freedom fighter who had been 

caught by the security police. He then became an askari and 

that he had gone back to the ANC and given information to

them. I then suspected that he probably would be killed, 

because otherwise we would have gone back to Vlakplaas with 

him, and De Kock would then have spoken to him there. 

&#9;I can't remember exactly why we stopped at Boschkop. 

As far as I can remember now, I think De Kock wanted to make 

sure that he was tied up. I say here, and he also 

handcuffed him. I don't think he physically cuffed him, I 

think he just checked to see that the cuffs were secure. 

&#9;We then drove off to Penge Mine, the mine situated on 

the other side of Burgersfort, in the Eastern Transvaal and 

it was the first time that I ever went there. We arrived at 

the mine. It was - there was a small village community and 

then outside the place there were several mines and this 

Penge Mine was one of these mines. We arrived there that 

night at the mine and then met Warrant Officer Snor 

Vermeulen and Warrant Officer Lionel Snyman. They are also 

witnesses for the Attorney General.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;118&#9;CAPT MENTZ

&#9;Penge Mine was at that stage used for a training base 

and askaris were there trained by Vermeulen and Snyman. 

ADV DE JAGER: Could you - Penge Mine is also about 300 

kilometres from Pretoria?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: In the north-easterly direction of the old 

Province of the Transvaal. It is now the Northern Province,

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.&#9;The askari was then cuffed to 

a pole and we drank further there. Later that night De Kock 

gave an instruction that we should take the man with us to 

the mine dumps. It is not on top of a mine dump, I would 

say it was sort of a hole that had been dug, excavated area. 

When we got there a chair had already been placed there and 

an explosive had already been attached to the underside of 

the chair. The askari was then placed on the chair and tied 

to the chair. 

&#9;On the way there I walked right at the back. Whilst I 

was walking at the back I saw how Floris, that is Leon 

Floris, gave De Kock a revolver. I say here in my 

application it could have been a pistol, but afterwards I 

thought about it again and I am almost certain that it was a 

revolver, the .38 type.

&#9;As I said the explosives had already been tied to the 

underside of a chair before we arrived there. De Kock 

meanwhile had now received the weapon from Floris and he 

shot him twice or three times. When I saw that he was about 

to shoot him I looked away, but he shot him three times. I 

therefore didn't see how the bullets hit the man directly. 

&#9;Nobody told me, yes, he had gone over to the other 

side, but that is what my belief was, that the man had 

returned to the ANC and had given them information.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;119&#9;CAPT MENTZ

&#9;We then walked back and whilst we were doing so Lionel 

Snyman had an LMG machine-gun and it was mounted some 

distance away and he then shot off a couple of shots in the 

mine dumps, to make it sound as if we were busy with 

training at night, et cetera.

&#9;I then continue. Whilst we were walking back I became 

very nauseous. If I say nauseous, I don't mean that I 

stopped and vomited. My nerves were very, very tense, I was 

very nervous and I had a nervous feeling at the pit of my 

stomach. I say here that it was totally unacceptable for 

me. I knew the man was to be killed and I associated myself 

with that, but the way in which it was done, I found 

unacceptable. If they wanted to kill him they should have

shot him from behind or they should have blindfolded him or 

something, but don't shoot him where he is tied to a chair 

and actually looks at you. I didn't feel good about that. 

When we were nearly at the base camp, the explosion took 

place and the askari was blow into the air.

&#9; I was never told what the real reason was but my 

inference was, and I stand by that, that that is the reason 

why he was killed. My inference was that he was an askari 

who had returned to the ANC and then gave them information 

that he was arrested and that there probably hadn't been 

enough evidence against him. If I say information which he 

could possibly have given was that he could have given 

information about SAP members and he could have been 

subjected to intimidation, especially the black members, 

their homes were attacked, petrol-bombs were thrown at their 

houses. In some cases some of them were killed. And the 

information which he could have passed on, for instance, he 

could have revealed the identity of any 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;120&#9;CAPT MENTZ

informers. We all ... (intervention).

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mentz, you don't know of anything, you are 

now speculating. Do you know what the reason was or not?

CAPT MENTZ: Nobody told me, but that is the inference that 

I drew, that he was passing on information.

ADV DE JAGER: But the nature of the information and exactly 

what it was about, that is something that you are 

speculating on.

CAPT MENTZ: I don't know. I continue. The middle of the 

last paragraph. It must, however, be remembered that I was 

a non-commissioned officer and my senior officer did never 

completely confide in me about everything, and in this case 

De Kock did not take me into his confidence by telling me 

exactly why the Askari was eliminated, as I have already 

said, that is an inference which I drew. 

&#9;I, in my earlier evidence also said how I regarded 

instructions from De Kock, that he was in liaison with head 

office and that the generals would have approved it. I 

regarded it as part of the struggle against the ANC at that 

stage, and regarded it as the elimination of an ANC activist 

and terrorist who had returned to the ANC.

JUDGE WILSON: You keep calling people terrorists, when you 

have no basis for doing it whatsoever. You don't know what 

this person had done, you don't know why he was killed.

CAPT MENTZ: I will correct that, Chairperson. I will call 

them - I will call him the particular askari, or the askari 

involved. 

&#9;I have already said here that I found out that it was 

Johannes Maboti.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, let us just stop there for a 

moment with the actions of Vlakplaas at that stage. The 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;121&#9;CAPT MENTZ

conduct and actions of the Vlakplaas people, against whom 

was it directed?

CAPT MENTZ: Against the liberation movements and fighters, 

organisations such as the ANC, PAC, the enemies of the 

Government of the day, who was the National Party.

ADV DU PLESSIS: In all cases?

CAPT MENTZ: In all cases.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And the way you saw it at the time, were 

the operations launched by the people at Vlakplaas, 

undertaken by them, was it approved by the commanding 

officers in head office?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that's how I saw it and I still believe 

that today.

ADV DU PLESSIS: As you saw it at the time, and today as 

well, relating to that particular time, were the Vlakplaas 

members involved in the elimination of ordinary criminals?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Were they involved in the elimination of 

any other persons that you know of?

CAPT MENTZ: No, not as far as I am aware.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now bearing that in mind, Capt Mentz, I 

want to ask you what is the possibility, and I don't want 

you to speculate, I am asking you in the light of your 

evidence, what is the possibility that the operation against 

this particular person could have been something other than 

an operation against the ANC or liberation movements or a 

person who was an enemy of the State?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson, it was specifically aimed

at the ANC/PAC.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Please just listen to my question. Please 

just listen carefully to my question. I want to ask you, 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;122&#9;CAPT MENTZ

arising from what you have just testified about, the 

background, the way in which Vlakplaas operated, the fact 

that you said that Vlakplaas only operated against ANC 

activists and terrorists and people who belonged to 

liberation movements, the fact that you said that they did 

not act against criminals, did not eliminate criminals and 

did not eliminate other people, what is the possibility that 

this askari could have been a common criminal or just a 

normal person who was eliminated? 

CAPT MENTZ: According to me there was no such possibility.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, the political motive, the 

general justification you will find on page 110 to page 

... (intervention).

JUDGE MGOEPE: Sorry Mr du Plessis before you get there 

because you made a whole lot of assumptions, summed up in 

one word, askari. You said what other possibilities, what 

other reasons could have existed for the elimination of an 

askari. Once you use the word askari, you have made a lot 

of assumptions. You have assumed that this person, as we 

have come to understand what the word askari means, you 

already assume that this person must have at some stage have 

been a so-called terrorist, in the ranks of the ANC. He 

came back, kept at Vlakplaas, Vlakplaas, all these things 

you are assuming at once, once you use the word askari. I 

think what Mr Mentz should tell us is why do you think this 

man was an askari, on what basis?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chairperson, could I put it this way, the 

askaris were not only at Vlakplaas. In some cases some of 

them were placed out to other security branches such as in 

Natal, Durban. There were people there who worked with 

askaris, in the Cape as well, and in other cities as well. 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;123&#9;CAPT MENTZ

They also had their own askaris who came from Vlakplaas. 

JUDGE MGOEPE: Couldn't this man have been arrested for 

stocktheft? 

CAPT MENTZ: No.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Couldn't this man just have been captured? 

Maybe he was, as you say, he was a terrorist, he had just 

been captured, he was not as yet an askari, he was not as 

yet converted into an askari.

CAPT MENTZ: No, right at the outset of my application I 

said that De Kock had told me that he wanted to find out 

what the askari could tell him, what he wanted to say.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Oh I see you got it from him, from de Kock. 

Thank you.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you Mr Chairman. ...(intervention)

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, you do make reference that way on 

page 105, and that is the last paragraph of your 

application.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, perhaps we should just follow 

through the questions they have asked you to their logical 

conclusion, in the light of what Judge Mgoepe has just said. 

Bearing in mind the way in which Vlakplaas operated as I 

have asked you just now, operated against enemies of the 

State, terrorists, members of liberation movements, this was 

an askari. So is it possible that this was an action by 

Vlakplaas members against one of their own people, without 

him being in any way involved in liberation movements or 

being a supporter or a sympathiser of the liberation 

movements?

CAPT MENTZ: No, no, they wouldn't have.

ADV DU PLESSIS: According to your view?

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;124&#9;CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could we then turn to the political 

motivation. You confirm that in general, from page 110 to 

page 115. And then on page 115 the third paragraph, the 

second line after the word "duties", is that sentence 

correct? "Although I was not a member of the security 

branch"?

CAPT MENTZ: No, that should be scrapped. From the third 

paragraph, "although I was not a member of the security 

branch". That is a mistake on our side. This came out when 

I was stationed at Murder and Robbery. Then I was not a 

member of the security branch, so this is incorrect in this 

application.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, do you confirm the rest of the 

political motivation?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Page 115?

ADV DU PLESSIS: 115 Mr Chairman, yes.

JUDGE MALL: What sentence is that?

ADV DU PLESSIS: The sentence in the third paragraph, after 

the comma in the second line, is the word "pligte" (duties) 

and it must come out from the word "alhoewel" (although) 

until the end of that sentence - "although I was not a 

member of the security branch".

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: That was just included by mistake.

&#9;Capt Mentz, do you confirm page 115 to 116?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: On whose instructions were you operating?

CAPT MENTZ: Col Eugene de Kock.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV MPSHE&#9;125&#9;CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MPSHE: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairman. 

Captain, page 115, the second paragraph, 

&#9;&#9;"The political objective was to combat terrorism 

to combat the destabilisation of the country and 

also to try and combat the enemies of the State, 

who tried to topple the State, including the ANC 

and the PAC, 

how applicable is this to the askari who was eliminated?

JUDGE MALL: What is the question?

ADV MPSHE: How applicable is this paragraph to the 

eliminated askari? In other words, does he fall within the 

categories mentioned here?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, if he had passed on information, as I 

believed he had, he had been an askari in the police, that's 

what I believed he passed on information back to the ANC and 

that would have, it would have helped the ANC/PAC in their 

struggle to topple the government. 

ADV MPSHE: But that's just an assumption you are making.

CAPT MENTZ: That's what I believed at the time.

ADV MPSHE: With reference to this man, that is an

assumption you are making now?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, this askari.

ADV MPSHE: Now if we use the word askari and we accept as 

you say that he was an askari, that would tell us that he 

was on your side, on the National party's side, not so?

CAPT MENTZ: At first, the way I saw it, an askari, was that 

he was first a freedom fighter, and he had then been 

arrested by the security police and they had then turned him 

or got him so far as to assist us, became an askari with us, 

received a police salary and notwithstanding that, whilst he 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV MPSHE&#9;126&#9;CAPT MENTZ

was doing his duties, he then fed information, which he 

obtained, back to the ANC or PAC, whatever the case may be. 

That is as far as I see an askari.

ADV MPSHE: Yes, let's be specific. Is my understanding 

correct, that if you label, if you say this person is an 

askari, that means that he is now working for the security 

forces?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes. Yes, in other words he was a double 

agent. He made as if he was working for the security forces 

...(intervention)

ADV MPSHE: That may be so Colonel I just want to know 

whether this is the position about an askari, that's all.

CAPT MENTZ: That's how I saw it.

ADV MPSHE: If he was an askari and as you have agreed with 

me, he was working for the security forces, what political 

motivation did exist for him to be eliminated if he was 

working for the security forces?

CAPT MENTZ: But I told you - pardon. I said that this man 

was apparently working for the security police, but then 

that would have been a front. He pretended to work for us 

whilst at the same time leaking sensitive information back 

to the ANC/PAC. That's what I believed.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Isn't is so that in fact the askaris who 

would normally be killed, would be those who were regarded 

as being a risk to the security forces?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Those who were not regarded as a risk, those 

who were in the eyes of the security branch were reliable 

wouldn't be killed.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: It's only those who would be regarded as 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV MPSHE&#9;127&#9;CAPT MENTZ

being a risk in the sense of being double agent, that will 

be killed?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: And you are saying that in your view, rightly 

or wrongly, the deceased in this case fell into that 

category for those who were a risk?

CAPT MENTZ: According to the way I saw it, yes.

JUDGE WILSON: Is it not correct that they would also be 

killed if they were a danger to the unit in that if they 

were going to expose the unit? In the operations of the 

unit they would be killed.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, sir.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman and Members. You must 

have covered my area.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE

ADV DE JAGER: Just to get some clarification here. The two 

of you never drove in the same vehicle from Vereeniging to 

Penge Mine?

CAPT MENTZ: No. So I don't know what happened or what was 

said in that vehicle.

ADV DE JAGER: And you say that when you arrived there the 

chair had already been prepared, it was at a mine at some 

kind of excavation there.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Who was in command there at Penge Mine?

CAPT MENTZ: Warrant Officer Snor Vermeulen and Warrant 

Officer Lionel Snyman.

ADV DE JAGER: They did not accompany you from Vereeniging, 

they didn't drive with you from Vereeniging, you just found 

them there?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I found them there.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DE JAGER&#9;128&#9;CAPT MENTZ

ADV DE JAGER: So could we then assume from the fact that 

preparations had already been made, that they must have 

received instructions where you were not present?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Page 107, Captain, the second, first and 

second lines, you talked about when you arrived at Penge 

Mine, 

&#9;&#9;"The askari was handcuffed to a pole. We then 

continued drinking."

where did you start drinking on this day?

CAPT MENTZ: If I remember correctly, Chairperson, De Kock 

and I stopped somewhere beforehand and we bought beer or 

something.

JUDGE WILSON: Where?

CAPT MENTZ: I can't remember specifically.

JUDGE WILSON: And who provided the drink now?

CAPT MENTZ: We had bought this liquor.

JUDGE WILSON: You bought some beer which you drank and then 

you bought some more you brought along for a party. Is that 

the position when you were going to kill the man?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, we bought a lot of alcohol, of drink. 

JUDGE WILSON: And of what sort?

CAPT MENTZ: I can't remember, I think it was beer, but I 

can't remember. It might have been, there might have been 

strong drink as well.

JUDGE WILSON: And you all drank there before you killed 

this man?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

JUDGE MALL: Was this man questioned at all in your 

presence?

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, no, not where I was present, but 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MALL&#9;129&#9;CAPT MENTZ

I can remember when we were drinking there, it was a whole 

crowd of us. I think that De Kock and one or two others 

spoke to the man. He was tied up quite a distance away from 

us. If I can sketch the scene, if you enter the mine then 

there is a building and lean-to's on the left-hand side and 

I - that was Snyman and Vermeulen's base where they slept. 

Because they arrived there a couple of days before us. We 

sat under the lean-to there and we made a fire and the 

askari was tied up quite some distance away from us, tied up 

to this pole. And not within earshot, and I think De Kock 

and one or two of the others spoke to the man at some stage, 

but I was not present during any conversation.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you have a braai there?

CAPT MENTZ: No, sir.

JUDGE MALL: The man was not questioned in your presence?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Sir.

JUDGE WILSON: The second point I want to ask you about, is 

you told us in your evidence that you found this incident 

"totally unacceptable".

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: Did you ask for a transfer from Vlakplaas?

CAPT MENTZ: At a later stage I ... (intervention).

JUDGE WILSON: After this incident that you found totally 

unacceptable?

CAPT MENTZ: Not directly afterwards, but at a later stage I 

was transferred to another unit.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes but why didn't you, if it was totally 

unacceptable, this sort of behaviour, why didn't you ask for 

a transfer?

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I was part of an elite unit. It 

was at that stage seen as an elite unit in the security 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON&#9;130&#9;CAPT MENTZ

police. I associated myself with the fact that the man was 

being killed or was killed, but as I testified already, they 

could have done it differently. They could have, for 

instance, blindfolded the man or shot him from behind, and 

it worried me that he was actually looking straight at them 

when they killed him.

JUDGE WILSON: Was it more important to you be part of this 

so-called elite unit than to do what you regarded as morally 

right?

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I believed that somebody had to do 

this dirty work to prop-up the Government of the day and to 

combat ANC and PAC terrorists. Somebody had to do it. If 

everybody had asked for transfers who was to do this work, 

and that's why I thought I would stay there.

JUDGE WILSON: So although it was totally unacceptable to 

you, you would have us believe that, you nevertheless 

thought you would stay there to do this sort of work. Is 

that what you are telling us?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, sir.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But would it have been safe for you to ask 

for a transfer immediately after this incident?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Sir, I have testified about that as well, 

because then the chances were that I could just one night be 

shot through a window in my home. The issue here was not 

the colour of your skin, but if you were a threat for such a 

unit in the security police, the chances were that you could 

also be eliminated, anybody could be eliminated. I was 

scared, I was afraid of De Kock.

MS KHAMPEPE: Mr Mentz, I know you have already testified 

that it was very difficult to question orders of your 

superiors. In this case you had taken quite a major leap by 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

MS KHAMPEPE&#9;131&#9;CAPT MENTZ

asking De Kock where you were going to on arrival at De Deur 

police station, and after seeing there the askari getting 

into Mr Brits' car, did you not ask for more details about 

what the askari was going to be questioned about?

CAPT MENTZ: I did ask De Kock where we were going, because 

I was driving the car and I had to know where to drive to. I 

can't specifically remember what De Kock and I discussed, it 

is a long time ago, but that's why I say I believe that this 

askari was a double agent. I can't say specifically what I 

asked him and what he said, because I can't remember.

JUDGE MGOEPE: But was the askari already tied at that time?

CAPT MENTZ: No.

JUDGE MGOEPE: So it was not yet apparent that he was going 

to be killed?

CAPT MENTZ: No, I only saw that as Boschkop. That is where 

I made the conclusion.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mentz, you earlier testified that you were 

not one of De Kock's confidantes. 

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, during the first time I testified I 

explained that I had initially been taking De Kock around. 

No not today, but earlier on. Later on I worked away from 

him.

ADV DE JAGER: I do not think it is very clear whether or 

not you are expressing yourself correctly or whether it is 

the interpretation, I just want to put something to you, as 

I understand your evidence. You associated yourself with 

the fact that people had to be killed during the struggle in 

which you were involved between the liberation movements and 

the police?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

ADV DE JAGER: You, however, did not associate yourself with 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DE JAGER&#9;132&#9;CAPT MENTZ

the method used to kill this person?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

ADV DE JAGER: What aspect of the method was unacceptable to 

you? 

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, this askari had to know that he was 

going to be killed. Now he is walking with us, in front of 

us, he is cuffed, he sees this chair. He was a trained 

terrorist, he knows what explosives look like. He was tied 

to the chair and they shoot him. I cannot remember 

specifically his face or where they shot him. If they 

wanted to execute him, I would say shoot him from the back 

or blindfold him so that he couldn't see it. I never - I 

felt that this wasn't right. It bothered me.

JUDGE MALL: So is the position that up to now we will never 

know why this man was killed, is that it? What the precise 

reason was.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, except for what I believe, we won't 

be able to ascertain that, that it was my impression.

JUDGE MALL: Yes no apart from impressions, you never learnt 

from De Kock or your superiors precisely why he was killed 

and nor did you ask?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it might be that they told me, but I 

can't remember specifically.

JUDGE MALL: So we are left in the dark as far as this 

Committee is concerned, we won't know why?

CAPT MENTZ: Except, Mr Chair, for the fact that all the 

persons I have mentioned have applied to this Committee and 

they will testify about that. 

ADV DE JAGER: Do you know whether De Kock was accused of 

this murder?

CAPT MENTZ: I don't know.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

&#9;133&#9;CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE MALL: We will take an adjournment at this stage.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION:

WILLEM WOUTER MENTZ: (s.u.o.)

JUDGE MALL: Mr Du Plessis, re-examination?

ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no re-examination, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS

JUDGE MALL: Yes, we move onto the next matter.

EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, the next matter 

you will find on page 128. Capt Mentz, this incident took 

place in April 1989 - in 1992, pardon. Page 129, before you 

start with your evidence, Capt Mentz. What was the position 

regarding the bringing in of weapons into the Republic after 

negotiations have started with the ANC and the PAC, let's 

say from 1990?

CAPT MENTZ: There was an increased number of smugglings 

from neighbouring states. 

ADV DU PLESSIS: What was the purpose of this smuggling of 

weapons, in general?

CAPT MENTZ: The weapons were smuggled after the banning of 

the liberation movements have been lifted. The weapons we 

concentrated on were weapons that were brought in for in 

case the negotiations between the ANC, PAC and the National 

Party would have been abandoned, so that the weapons could 

possibly have been used if the liberation movements wanted 

to return to the liberation struggle.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you continue on page 129, can you just 

please read to the Committee.

CAPT MENTZ: From 1991 at Vlakplaas, weapon smuggling was 

investigated, amongst others, on the Mozambique border. The 

weapons were suspected to be brought through the Komatipoort 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;134&#9;CAPT MENTZ

as well as over the border fence. Lieut Chappies Klopper 

was in command of this operation. He is now a State witness 

and worked for National Intelligence with Willie Nortjé. 

There were various members of units, C10 as well as from 

the special task force there at this specific operation. 

If I can mention some of the task force members. Sarel 

Jansen van Rensburg, Ashley Crookes, Floors De Jonge and 

Andre Laas. The last three were all under officers. There 

were furthermore Ovambo Koevoet members. These were members 

who fought in the Koevoet war in Ovamboland, and they were 

under the command of the South African Police in South 

Africa now. These were Lucas Khimelo and a certain Simon 

Higinbamgwasa - (I don't know how to spell it), as well as 

other Black members, whose names I can't remember. 

&#9;Information was received that weapons were being 

smuggled or would be smuggled for giving them to the ANC and 

the PAC across the border, in a white Ford Cortina vehicle. 

I cannot remember who told me that the weapons would be 

given to the ANC, but I suspected that it was Willie Nortjé. 

&#9;The Koevoet members had an appointment with the 

activists in order to ambush them. When I speak here of an 

ambush, I don't mean an ambush to kill them. The purpose 

was to meet them in a police ambush and to arrest them. We, 

together with the task force members took position next to 

the road in the veld. I can perhaps just explain that our 

purpose was that when Lucas Khimelo met them on the dirt 

road and when they saw the weapons and were paid with cash, 

if they gave this cash money to those people, that would 

have been the sign and we would have jumped out of the 

bushes from the side of the road and arrested them. In the 

past we already had already had such operations where they 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;135&#9;CAPT MENTZ

were prosecuted in a normal court. 

&#9;Lucas Khimelo and the other members of Koevoet waited 

in this dirt road. They had their own vehicle there. They 

would then meet the weapon smugglers there. Approximately 

seven o'clock that evening, this vehicle had not arrived. 

The command was given by Willie Nortjé that we must retreat 

and we went to Schoemaas, that was the police base close-by 

where we stayed and we went there to rest. We started 

drinking at the canteen and we used a lot of alcohol. I was 

under the influence of alcohol during the further events. 

&#9;Later that evening Lucas Khimelo and his members came 

back to Schoemaas. They then first called Lucas Nortjé and 

somebody else to the side and the others of us were later on 

called and we had a meeting. There were quite many of us, 

of Koevoet members from C10, from Vlakplaas as well as task 

force members and also the local security branch members. 

Later that evening we were told by Lucas Khimelo that him 

and the Koevoet members drove into the smugglers. When they 

drove into them the smugglers told them to go into a double 

track road because they didn't want to be in the main dirt 

road there, because it was carrying heavy traffic. Khimelo 

followed them and told us that the smugglers had weapons in 

their car and that they were afraid that they would be 

robbed by these people. They then decided to eliminate 

these people by shooting them. Because the police action 

during that stage was sensitive and because C1 Vlakplaas 

used ex-Koevoet members, this evoked a lot of criticism from 

the National Party and it was a problem. After the 

smugglers have been shot, Khimelo returned and told us what 

had happened. First Cronje and Klopper and then us. It was 

then discussed and we planned the operation.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;136&#9;CAPT MENTZ

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz can we stop there please. Were 

you at all involved in the shootings?

CAPT MENTZ: No, I wasn't, I was only present, I wasn't 

present there, I was only present afterwards. 

ADV DU PLESSIS: In other words what you are saying happened 

there, is based on what you heard.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you please continue.

CAPT MENTZ: During this discussion it was decided that it 

would create a problem if it was mentioned that the Ovambo 

Koevoet members shot the smugglers, because at that stage 

there were various rumours that the security police were 

involved in so-called Third Force activities and 

specifically Vlakplaas, by, amongst others, Dirk Coetzee and 

Nofomela. In other words, the information that came from 

this incident would of course place further pressure on the 

South African Police and the Government. 

&#9;At that stage negotiations were started and there were 

negotiations between the ANC and the PAC and the National 

Party and other such liberation movements. If it came to the 

knowledge that the NP Government was compromised by the 

police, it would make the negotiations difficult. There was 

then decided that we had to restructure the operation to 

make it seem as if the smugglers were shot by the task force 

members. The reason for that was that they were not accused 

of being involved in Third Force activities, but because it 

was actually an operational division of the police. We 

didn't want to embarrass the Government.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, if it had been known that this 

- if this operation came to the fore, would it have been to 

the - would it have been a good thing for the security 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;137&#9;CAPT MENTZ

police?

CAPT MENTZ: Definitely. It would have helped the ANC or 

the PAC, because it would have shown that while they were 

negotiating with the Government of the day, that the police 

were using ex-Koevoet Ovambo members to eliminate some of 

their members. It would not have been good for the 

Government of the day.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you go on on page 132, please.

CAPT MENTZ: I was then ordered by Lieut Chappies Klopper to 

help with the reconstruction of the event, because I have 

had experience at Murder and Robbery. I did this. Nobody 

would have believed that weapon smugglers would have sold 

weapons to five white men. Therefore, the car was taken 

back to the main road. 

&#9;These people were shot in a small double track road and 

we decided that the story would have been that we were 

waiting in the vehicle until the white Cortina came back. 

The informant said this specifically that it would have been 

a Cortina. We then would follow the white Cortina and we 

would have approached the vehicle from the back. We would 

also say that we were shot on from the vehicle and that we 

shot, then shot back. It would then be said that the four 

people in the vehicle were killed. 

&#9;In the boot we found various illegal weapons, amongst 

others, AK47 weapons, an RPG7 and also RPK and Makorov 

pistols. The four bodies were taken out and put in our 

mini-bus. We had a combi mini-bus so the four bodies were 

put upon, on top of each other in the back and a blanket was 

thrown over them. The cartridges were picked up and we then 

left them. We took the empty cartridges to the road and 

left them there.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;138&#9;CAPT MENTZ

&#9;We then went to Schoemaas with the four bodies. We 

didn't go into Schoemaas, but we only hooted at the gate and 

they came. They knew that we would find them, see them in a 

house at the back of Schoemaas. We waited for Willie Nortjé 

and Chappies Klopper to join us there.

&#9;While we were waiting somebody, I can't remember who, 

made the remark in a joke that one is still living. These 

bodies were put one upon the other. There was a blanket 

over them. It was very dark. We stopped next to the house. 

I took out my pistol and shot at one of the bodies. It must 

have been the top body. It was dark and I could not see. I 

could not see who I shot or where I shot that person, 

although I hit the body. I don't know exactly where. At 

that stage I was certain that all of them were dead. 

&#9;My actions there I can describe as very tense and 

drunk, irrational, something I would not normally have done. 

I was so frustrated and angry at these people who brought in 

the weapons, still while we were negotiating - while there 

were negotiations going on. I was very drunk and angry and 

frustrated. I did this.

&#9;The shot I fired did not cause any injury or death. I 

was under the influence of liquor. I would not have done 

this under normal circumstances. The bodies were then taken 

to the mortuary in Komatipoort. The bodies were taken to 

the mortuary. A dossier was opened. I then made an 

affidavit on this, which was not a true and correct 

explanation of the event. It was done for the reasons 

above.

ADV DU PLESSIS: The specific reasons you mention here, are 

these the reasons you also testified about just now? The 

reasons about the fixing of the scene?

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;139&#9;CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Were these the reasons relating to the 

problems of the information being made known?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you please page to 135. Are these

the names of two persons involved?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that's right. The other two we you could 

not identify. 

ADV DU PLESSIS: The political motivation and general 

motivation from page 136 up to 140 and on 141, the second 

paragraph, you want to change something. What do you want 

to remedy there?

CAPT MENTZ: In the third line. The original operation was 

- I want to take the word "moontlik" (possibly) out, weapons 

and in the "in" must be "to". 

ADV DU PLESSIS: And on the next page 142, at the bottom, 

you say in whose, on whose orders you acted?

CAPT MENTZ: I acted on the orders of Chappies Klopper and 

Willie Nortjé. They gave me the orders and therefore I 

believed that Eugene de Kock would have approved these 

orders, because I knew that Willie Nortjé called De Kock 

before we went out to go and remedy the scene.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And then on the next page you said that the 

prosecution took place in the Supreme Court. You also have 

a copy of the - the case is still hanging, in any case. Oh, 

sorry, of the charge sheet. A copy of the charge sheet has 

been attached. 

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I see the charge sheet was 

never attached. It is in my possession if the Committee 

would want a copy thereof.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;140&#9;CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE MALL: Does the charge sheet give the names of all 

four people who had been killed?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, perhaps I will have a look, I 

have it in my possession. If the cross-examination can go 

on, I will look for it and I will give you an indication. I 

don't think so, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you would 

like to put to this witness?

ADV MPSHE: I don't have questions, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE MALL: You have referred to these persons who are 

bringing the arms in as smugglers, is that right?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct, Mr Chair, smugglers of the 

liberation movements.

JUDGE MALL: I want to know why you say they were smugglers 

of the liberation movements, what proof is there that they 

were smuggling for the liberation movement and were not 

people who were merely selling arms to the highest bidder?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I know that some of these people we 

questioned in the past, said that these weapons were going 

to Natal for attacks on Inkatha, and people were arrested on 

the East Rand who had of these weapons in their possession. 

They, during questioning, said that they give it to the 

liberation movements. I did not speak to these specific 

four, but I believe it was concerning this matter.

JUDGE MALL: They may be lying of course, they may be 

running a business, selling arms to people who want to buy 

them, to ordinary criminals?

CAPT MENTZ: That is possible, Mr Chairman, some of these 

people were also found guilty in different cases, but it is 

possible.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON&#9;141&#9;CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE WILSON: Found guilty of what?

CAPT MENTZ: Possession of weapons and selling weapons.

ADV DE JAGER: The questions asked mean that if that - would 

that person not possibly have supplied me with those weapons 

if I offered them a higher price?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, they would definitely or 

certainly not have sold weapons to anybody. We got onto 

them because of informants, who - Nortjé handled them 

through Khimelo. They would not have sold to strange people. 

They would have had to contact informants. But if we did 

this, it would have been possible.

JUDGE MALL: If a warlord or leader of a gang was interested 

in getting arms, and made contact, he would be supplied arms 

by these smugglers wouldn't he?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, it is possible, sir.

JUDGE MALL: And is there nothing to say that on this 

occasion the arms that were being smuggled were for the ANC 

on this occasion or the PAC?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, I could not say specifically for whom 

these weapons were intended. They might just as well have 

gone to Inkatha. Furthermore, in my application before the 

Commission I also apply for a certain event where we 

received weapons from Inkatha, but from a specific person. I 

believe that these weapons were going for a militant freedom 

organisation. The political parties murdered each other on 

the trains and everywhere.

JUDGE WILSON: As I understand the evidence, your evidence, 

your agents were going to buy these guns from these people.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, and then arrest them.

JUDGE WILSON: So they were not bringing the guns in to give 

to known ANC or other activists whom they knew, they were 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON&#9;142&#9;CAPT MENTZ

prepared to sell them and they were going to sell them to 

your agents.

CAPT MENTZ: Our people pretended to be members of a 

political party. I was not there when they spoke with them.

JUDGE MALL: That opens up all kinds of possibilities. If 

your agents could have easily bought guns from them, the 

suppliers don't seem to be particularly concerned about who 

they were going to sell to. They weren't going to ask proof 

from your agents whether they were members of the ANC or 

PAC? They were quite happy to sell them.

CAPT MENTZ: That might be the case, but I believe that the 

weapons were going to the ANC, the PAC or Inkatha.

JUDGE MALL: No, I don't understand it when you say you 

believe it, we are now trying to test the reasonableness of 

your belief.

JUDGE WILSON: You can't have believed they were going to 

them. Haven't you told us that you set up an ambush, a trap 

but when they bought the weapons the money was handed over, 

you are going to jump out and arrest them?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chair, and we could have 

interrogated further to find out to whom these weapons were 

really going.

JUDGE WILSON: No the weapons were going to be sold there, 

in front of your eyes.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Mr Chair, we would have arrested them and 

we could have questioned them further.

JUDGE WILSON: Instead of which you went off and had a party 

again?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, the operation was then cancelled. It 

would not have continued. We then went, we had a braai and 

we drank. That was all that we could do at Komatipoort.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MALL&#9;143&#9;CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE MALL: Who gave instructions to the leader of the 

Koevoet from your group, or under whose orders were Koevoet 

acting?

CAPT MENTZ: They were divided at Vlakplaas into certain 

units. They were under the command of Gen De Kock at C10. 

There were also other ex-Koevoet members who were used as 

trackers at other branches. All of them weren't with us.

JUDGE MALL: I'm talking about this particular occasion.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I just point out and I 

should have done that perhaps at the beginning. Amnesty is 

not sought for murder in this matter. Amnesty is simply 

sought for being an accessory after the fact for - for 

perjury and obstruction of justice. I am just making that 

point Mr Chairman because of the fact that we are not asking 

for amnesty for murder.

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, they were under the command of Lieut 

Klopper and Nortjé. 

JUDGE MGOEPE: Is it therefore reasonable to conclude that 

when these people were killed by the Koevoet, they were 

acting under instructions from Klopper or Nortjé?

CAPT MENTZ: Mr Chair, it is difficult to tell, because 

Nortjé was with me and some of the other task force members 

before they were shot, we were together. We then withdrew. 

I do not know what orders Nortjé gave them further on, but 

I think they acted on their own, on the spur of the moment.

JUDGE MALL: What about Klopper?

CAPT MENTZ: To my knowledge, I can't remember whether 

Klopper later spoke with them before these people were shot. 

It might be the case but I have no knowledge.

JUDGE MGOEPE: I understand you to say that you helped in 

covering up this incident because you were worried that the 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MGOEPE&#9;144&#9;CAPT MENTZ

disclosure thereof would have embarrassed or weakened the 

Government, or being to the advantage of the ANC or PAC 

during negotiations?

CAPT MENTZ: That's correct.

JUDGE MGOEPE: What I don't understand is, why would that be 

so? The people killed would have been simply arms 

smugglers. How can that - I am trying to wonder whether 

everybody in the country would not have been happy that arms 

smugglers were killed?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Mr Chair, if I remember correctly, it was 

in the news and in the newspapers that the Government 

allowed that ex-Koevoet members, Ovambos, operated with the 

security branch and specifically Vlakplaas and Vlakplaas' 

reputation how they could go and shoot these people. They 

didn't want - they didn't want the police to employ these 

ex-Ovambo members, but it was still done.

JUDGE MGOEPE: In fact I think the feelings were very strong 

against these Koevoet members?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, that's correct.

JUDGE WILSON: So basically when you discovered the 

Vlakplaas people had killed them, it was a cover-up now for 

the security police and Vlakplaas - the Koevoet people who 

killed them, sorry. When the Koevoet people came back and 

said they had killed them, you covered up to save the name 

of the security police and Vlakplaas?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you please explain to us, members of 

Koevoet were members who - were they South African citizens?

CAPT MENTZ: Some of them, but not all of them. The South 

African white policemen who served in Ovamboland, like in my 

case, I went for three months at a time, and we were a 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DE JAGER&#9;145&#9;CAPT MENTZ

normal counter-insurgence unit, some of these members then 

applied for staying there for very long, for a year or two 

years, and they were then members of the Koevoet team. 

When I say Ovambo members, they were members from South West 

- now Namibia. They then also worked with the tin units, 

the counter-insurgence units. They could - they were very 

good at warfare. There were also Ovambo members, together 

with Koevoet.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there in South Africa feelings against 

Koevoet?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Were they regarded as members of a Third 

Force?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: And now if you covered this event up, was it 

for the protection of Koevoet or for the protection of the 

Government, in whose service they were?

CAPT MENTZ: The security police, the police and the 

Government in whose service they were.

JUDGE MALL: &#9;Did I understand your answer to be that your 

action was taken in the interest of the South African 

Government and the South African Police? Is that what you 

are saying?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, the security police, the police as a whole 

and the police who pursued the objectives of the Government 

of the day, which was the National Party Government.

JUDGE MALL: But if you were directly implicating and 

holding out to the world that this action was performed by 

the police, by the South African Police or a Vlakplaas unit, 

if that is what you were going to hold out to the world how 

was that protecting the police?

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MALL&#9;146&#9;CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: The false plan which we had was to say that it 

was the task force, the special operational unit which had 

shot these people. Then no questions would have been asked. 

But the moment you mention that it was Koevoet members or 

Vlakplaas members, then it was a problem.

RE-EXAMINATION BY ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

At that stage were the actions of specially the Vlakplaas 

unit,was it still directed against the liberation movements?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And the Vlakplaas involvement in this 

event, if that was disclosed, would that have a prejudicial 

effect on the Vlakplaas operation?

CAPT MENTZ: I believe so, because if I remember correctly, 

just after this it was insisted that people such as De Kock 

and other persons who were known to the ANC, that they had 

to leave the police. I think it was one of the ANC's 

requirements for further negotiations, and that in fact 

happened, they packages and our unit was disbanded just 

after that.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz on page 129, the bottom 

paragraph, you said that information was received that 

weapons were smuggled for making available to the ANC and 

the PAC across the border, in a white Ford Cortina. 

CAPT MENTZ: I can't remember who told me that the weapons 

would be made available to the ANC.

ADV DU PLESSIS: But you think that it was Willie Nortjé?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now you have conceded that there is a 

possibility that these people could have sold weapons to 

other people. Now I want to ask you, what do you, in the 

light of what you can remember, what was told to you, what 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;147&#9;CAPT MENTZ

was more probable, would they have sold weapons to private 

people or was it more probable that they would have sold 

weapons to supporters of freedom fighters and movements?

CAPT MENTZ: No, they would rather - if they didn't sell it 

to trained terrorists, they would have sold it to street 

committees, the self-defence units and those kinds of bodies 

and people.

JUDGE MALL: We are talking about this particular 

consignment, not generally?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No, this particular consignment.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, this particular one. We are speaking 

of this specific consignment of weapons. 

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I believed that the weapons were going to 

these people.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can I take you to page 132, the last two 

sentences of the first paragraph, the middle of the page, it 

starts with "the reason for that". The last two sentences 

of the first paragraph. It is on page 132, it starts with 

the words "the reason for that". 

CAPT MENTZ: The reason for that was that they were not 

accused of Third Force activities and they were actually the 

operational section. There was already a kind of a stigma 

attached to Vlakplaas at the time that they were involved in 

Third Force activities.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

JUDGE MALL: Thank you, you are excused.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, before the witness is excused. 

In respect of the matter of Brian Ngqulunga, we did some 

research and we got hold of parts of the record of the 

evidence in the Eugene de Kock trial, and we also are going 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;148&#9;CAPT MENTZ

to be placed in possession this evening of the excerpts of 

Ngqulunga's evidence before the Harms Commission, which we 

deem important for this Committee. Now I have in my 

possession bundles of the evidence in the De Kock trial, 

especially, well, actually the evidence of Warrant Officer 

Nortjé. I intend to hand that in to the Committee, but what 

I want to do, Mr Chairman, and it is going to be very short, 

is refer you to one or two pages in the evidence and ask 

Capt Mentz's commentary on that, if you will allow me to.

JUDGE MALL: Is Nortjé going to come to give evidence?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Pardon, Mr Chairman?

JUDGE MALL: Will Nortjé be coming to give evidence?

ADV DU PLESSIS: He is a State witness, Mr Chairman, I am 

not sure - not in this application. Not in this 

application. He is a State witness, I am not sure if he is 

applying for amnesty.

JUDGE MALL: Don't know whether he has.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Or whether he has, I don't know. But as 

far as I know all State witnesses did apply for amnesty, so 

we can accept that he probably did.

JUDGE MALL: You would like to put portions of the evidence 

given by Nortjé in that case to this witness?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want his comments.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I want his comments on that.

JUDGE MALL: Does it affect him or implicate him?

ADV DU PLESSIS: There is mention of him in the evidence, Mr 

Chairman. I may mention - perhaps I can give you an idea of 

the purpose thereof, and if the Committee doesn't deem it 

important or necessary, then we can dispense with it.

&#9;There are two aspects which become clear from the 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;149&#9;ADDRESS

evidence. The first one is that there was a plan to 

eliminate Ngqulunga, apparently and that was the - what Capt 

Mentz testified about that he heard later, apparently 

because there was a worry that he would become scared 

because of the false evidence that he gave in front of the 

Harms Commission.

&#9;Nortjé also secondly, confirms the fact that there was 

a second reason for killing Ngqulunga, and that is that he 

was a person who was giving information to the ANC. He does 

refer in his evidence to that fact. I can point that out to 

you. 

&#9;Then thirdly, the evidence indicates that people high 

up in the security headquarters knew exactly what happened 

in this incident, with Ngqulunga. 

&#9;Fourthly, Mr Chairman - pardon, I lost the point now. 

If you could just bear with me. If you could just bear with 

me, Mr Chairman. Oh, the last point was that there is also 

evidence in this record pertaining to the fact that De Kock 

wanted the people who were involved in this matter, that is 

Bellingham, Botha, Baker and Mentz, and especially Baker and 

Bellingham, to be tied up with an incident such as this, so 

as to have a hold over them. That is the gist of what I 

wanted his comments on. I can, however, just hand it in and 

deal with that in argument, if the Committee doesn't deem it 

necessary to hear any evidence on this.

JUDGE MALL: I think you may proceed by putting that to your 

witness.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. May I beg leave to 

hand up sets of the copies of the record of Nortjé's 

evidence. It is thick but I am going to refer you to just 

the relevant pages. That would be, I think EXHIBIT AA, Mr 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;150&#9;CAPT MENTZ

Chairman.

EXHIBIT AA HANDED IN

&#9;Mr Chairman, I want to place on record that I haven't 

provided Mr Mpshe with a copy of this, which I perhaps 

should have done earlier in this week and it is my mistake 

that I didn't do that. If he needs to ask any questions 

about that, he has got a problem with that, then that's my 

fault. May I proceed, Mr Chairman?

JUDGE MALL: Yes, sure.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, am I correct that this is 

Exhibit AA?

JUDGE MALL: Annexure AA, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Exhibit AA.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Capt Mentz, could we turn to page 7 of this 

volume. I would like you to read the second last paragraph 

of Warrant Officer Nortjé's evidence. He says he would like 

to also tie up Bellingham and Baker to certain incidents, on 

the next page, because they are not yet directly involved. 

They haven't as yet been contaminated, as we called it, and 

he decided that the two of them - he would use the two of 

them. Actually he went for Baker. And then he says 

further, and he then gave them instruction, after we rented 

the combis, or they knew that they were going with. He then 

called in Wouter Mentz and Piet Botha. Mentz had just been 

transferred from Murder and Robbery at that stage. He 

hadn't been there for very long. 

&#9;Now could you comment on this for the Committee, about 

the whole issue of the contamination and the purpose and the 

whole modus operandi?

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, I don't know why De Kock gave 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;151&#9;CAPT MENTZ

Baker and Bellingham these instructions and that he wanted 

to contaminate them. I don't have any knowledge of that. 

ADV DU PLESSIS: Could I ask you, were you aware of the fact 

that that was the way in which De Kock operated, to involve 

people in certain events, to contaminate them as such?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I misunderstood, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now in your case, if you were involved in 

certain events, would it have created a problem for you, if 

you wanted to leave Vlakplaas or to talk about what happened 

there?

CAPT MENTZ: It would, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Good I then take you to page 25. In the 

middle of that page the question was asked do you know 

whether people higher up knew of that? I believe they 

would have been informed there, must have been informed. Is 

that in line with your evidence?

JUDGE WILSON: My page 25 is blank for the top half of the 

page.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, yes, that is the page I am on, Mr 

Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: So where are you starting from?

ADV DU PLESSIS: In the middle of the typed part?

JUDGE WILSON: In the middle of the typed portion?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, it says - let me read the second 

paragraph, "vanwaar af" - from Brig Van Rensburg's side who 

was then the commanding officer, and do you know where the 

people higher than him knew of this? I believe that they 

would have been so informed, they must have been informed. 

ADV DE JAGER: If you read the previous one it reads as an 

instruction and the question was where did the instruction 

come from?

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;152&#9;CAPT MENTZ

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I would have rectified that now. 

ADV DU PLESSIS: This deals with the instruction and where 

it came from. Is that in line with how you remember it?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And then the next question was, what, 

according to you, was the reason why Brian Ngqulunga had to 

be eliminated and the answer, because he wanted to talk 

about Mxenge from Durban. That is one of the reasons. You 

have already testified about that, that you were not aware 

of that.

CAPT MENTZ: Yes, I didn't know anything about that.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Then he says Mxenge and on the next page he 

says yes, let us assume that, let us accept that. He has 

already testified to that before the Harms Commission? That 

is correct. And on which occasion he also denied his 

involvement of that. The answer was that is correct. And 

then Capt Mentz you said that information came from 

elsewhere, not from C1, but from elsewhere, that this man 

had possibly changed tactics and went to talk to the ANC and 

Nortjé said that is correct, that's how I understood it. Is 

that in line with the information which you had received 

relating to the reason for Brian Ngqulunga's elimination?

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct, Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And then it said, and from the top the 

decision was taken that he must be eliminated. 

CAPT MENTZ: That is correct.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Just bear with me, please, Mr Chairman. 

Capt Mentz, just to complete the picture here, on page 45 

from 21, lines 21 to the next page 22, there is once again 

evidence about the contamination. Mr Chairman, I am just 

drawing your attention to this, I have already asked the 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;153&#9;CAPT MENTZ

witness about this.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Then on page 45 ...(intervention)

ADV DE JAGER: Page 45 which lines?

ADV DU PLESSIS: From line 20 onwards.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And then on page 48 from line 12, there 

Nortje is testifying about the question of whether you had 

been contaminated. The question was: did it justify the 

choice of Mentz, motivate? No, but Mentz had just arrived 

from Murder and Robbery at that stage and he had not yet 

been contaminated. Yes, well, I suppose he was, but I don't 

know whether he knew that he had done something wrong.

&#9;Did you know anything about this motivation to 

contaminate you?

CAPT MENTZ: No, Chairperson.

ADV DU PLESSIS: But is there a possibility that that is the 

reason why you went on this operation?

CAPT MENTZ: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I have no further places but 

Capt Mentz indicates he wants to say something about a 

specific page. Could you please continue, Captain?

CAPT MENTZ: Chairperson, on page 45, the second last 

paragraph. Could I continue? 

&#9;&#9;" It was the choice of the people who were 

involved, who were to be involved in the 

operation".

Chairperson, I don't agree with that. You were never given a 

choice, you were never asked do you want to go with tonight 

or not, you were just told, you never had a choice? ADV DE 

JAGER: But does it here refer to your choice or 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;154&#9;CAPT MENTZ

does it refer to the fact that he chooses you to go along on 

the operation and once you were involved you were actually 

caught up in the web and you were contaminated. Isn't that 

the choice that he is referring to?

CAPT MENTZ: That's possible Chairperson, then maybe I 

misunderstood it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Captain, any other aspects which you would 

like to comment on? I am not going into detail on all of 

this. So please just page through and see whether there are 

any other aspects you would like to comment on.

&#9;Captain Mentz, one last question. Insofar - I am not 

going to refer you to each and every place here, but insofar 

as Warrant Officer Nortjé's evidence differs from what you 

have testified, do you stand by what you have testified?

CAPT MENTZ: I stand by what I have testified.

ADV DU PLESSIS: I have no further questions in this regard. 

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, in respect of this matter we 

have also obtained affidavits from the other people who were 

involved in this specific matter of Ngqulunga. Firstly, 

there is an affidavit by Col Baker and then there is also an 

affidavit by Col Bellingham or Capt Bellingham, I beg your 

pardon. I beg leave to hand up copies of these affidavits. 

The affidavit of Baker would then be EXHIBIT BB and the 

affidavit of Bellingham EXHIBIT CC.

EXHIBITS BB AND CC HANDED IN

&#9;Mr Chairman, you will note that both these affidavits 

say that they have perused the written amnesty application 

of Capt Mentz, that they confirm the correctness of the 

contents of the amnesty application of Capt Mentz, 

pertaining to the nature and particulars, the date, the 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;155&#9;CAPT MENTZ

place, the name of the victim, the political objectives and 

the particulars pertaining to the order given. 

&#9;Then each of them say that,

&#9;&#9;"I wish to state that I will apply for amnesty for 

this act myself, and that my amnesty application 

will substantially contain the same evidence that 

was contained in Capt Wouter Mentz's application, 

as well as his testimony. I therefore support Capt 

Mentz's amnesty application. I am of the view that 

he has made full disclosure of all relevant facts 

pertaining to this incident".

JUDGE WILSON: Does anything tie up this affidavit with the 

incident that we are talking about?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, it doesn't appear from the 

affidavits themselves, but I was involved specifically with 

drawing these affidavits, although I did not draw the final 

version. That's why I see it now for the first time. It 

does relate specifically to this fact. Capt Mentz can also 

testify to that because he was present when this was done. 

So I can give you a confirmation that this, it relates to 

this specific incident.

JUDGE WILSON: Have they been present when he gave evidence?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No, Mr Chairman, they were not present when 

he gave evidence, but there was a tape-recording made which 

they listened to, of the evidence which Capt Mentz made 

himself, Mr Chairman. But Mr Chairman, I am presenting this 

affidavit mainly to confirm the correctness of the 

application as it stands in the application papers.

ADV DE JAGER: Could you again, please, give us the 

reference of Brian Ngqulunga's application, what was it? 

Schedule ...?

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;156&#9;CAPT MENTZ

JUDGE WILSON: 53, page 53.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, yes, it was on page 53, 

Schedule 4. I beg your pardon for the oversight. I won't 

say who was responsible for the final draft, Mr Chairman It 

is my attorney sitting next to me, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Mr Mpshe, are there any questions you 

wish to put this witness?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I have no questions to put to this 

witness.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, just to respond quickly before the 

Chair and the Committee members are perplexed by the 

envelope that I have just sent up.

JUDGE MALL: Yes?

ADV MPSHE: The Chair and the Committee will recall that in 

Pretoria I was requested to obtain Annexure A to the post-

mortem report of Brian Ngqulunga. Mr Chairman, I did take 

some means of obtaining the Annexure A. I went to the 

Garankua police station on the 4th of March 1997 and I was 

referred to a Constable Chelo Lusaba who is dealing with 

this type of matters. She together with another policeman 

entered the store room and they looked for the docket, which 

they could not find. Unfortunately I said to her that I 

need a statement from her that the docket got lost in their 

possession and she promised to fax it down to me, but she 

has not done so. 

&#9;Mr Chairman, in the meantime, I got hold of the 

contents of the envelope before you. Now these are the 

photos of Brian Ngqulunga where he was found, how he was 

found and the wounds and everything that was done by the 

police. I think this will or may substitute the absence of 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV MPSHE&#9;157&#9;ADDRESS

Annexure A. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: This is in lieu of what we were expecting, that 

was Annexure A to the post-mortem report?

ADV MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: And Mr Du Plessis, have you had sight of this 

document, these photographs and documents?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I have had sight of the 

documents.

JUDGE MALL: Well, these documents, including the 

photographs will go in as Exhibit CC.

ADV MPSHE: I am sorry, Mr Chairman, is it not DD, Mr 

Chairman?

JUDGE MALL: I'm sorry, EXHIBIT DD, you are right. Yes, 

thank you.

EXHIBIT DD HANDED IN

JUDGE MALL: I have before me a memorandum which has just 

been handed to us now. It is addressed to the Amnesty 

Committee, from Mr Pik Botha. Do you have a copy, has that 

been served on you?

ADV MPSHE: Yes, I have, thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Du Plessis, do you have a copy of that?

ADV DU PLESSIS: I do have a copy, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: We haven't had time to read this and I am 

wondering whether we should take a short adjournment, to 

enable you to read it as well, and to consider what you 

should do about it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, I have only received it now, Mr 

Chairman. I would like to take it up with Brig Cronjé and 

perhaps convey to the Committee just his view on this and 

his reaction on this.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;158&#9;ADDRESS

ADV DU PLESSIS: I cannot recall his evidence in any event 

as having been to the effect that he factually knows or knew 

that Minister Pik Botha knew about it. I will take it up.

JUDGE MALL: Yes, whether the Press may have reported it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, it may have been reported differently.

JUDGE MALL: Yes, very well. Before we take this 

adjournment, apart from that, is there any other matter that 

has to be dealt with?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, at this point in time, in 

respect of evidence, there are no other matters. In respect 

of the matter of Brig Cronjé relating to the Swapo incident, 

we have decided to withdraw that matter.

JUDGE MALL: Alright, just let me get that.

ADV DU PLESSIS: With reservation of all our rights, Mr 

Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Which number is it?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, that is page 39 of Brig 

Cronjés application.

JUDGE WILSON: Schedule 2?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Schedule as, as it pleases you.

ADV DE JAGER: What do you exactly mean, withdraw with 

reservation of all your rights?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, what I mean and I intended to 

explain that now, is that we wish to consider our position 

regarding this application. The cut-off date for the final 

applications is in May and we want a little bit more time to 

consider our position in this regard. If we make a decision 

to launch an application in regard to this matter again, we 

will do so. But at this point in time we have decided not 

to go ahead at this point in time with that application, Mr 

Chairman.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;159&#9;ADDRESS

JUDGE MGOEPE: So are you just asking to have it removed 

from our roll?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, yes.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Or are you in fact withdrawing the 

application?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No, the effect is that I am asking for it 

to be removed. What we will do is to, if we decide to go 

ahead with the application, we will lodge a formal 

application, again in the same fashion with the same 

contents, just to make hundred per cent sure that there is 

no problem. We, however, want some time to consider that 

application and to decide if we really want to go ahead with 

that application. So I am asking the Committee to strike it 

from the roll of the hearings.

JUDGE MALL: Yes, very well. You are granted leave to 

remove this matter from the roll.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, then 

the only matter that - actually two matters that are left, 

would be the record of the Harms Commission proceedings 

which we will obtain this evening, and then Prof Robertse's 

report. Now as I have pointed out to you in chambers, and I 

can say that now here as well, I have had to have 

discussions with some of my clients, the applicants, about 

the question of the publication of the contents of that 

report. I also had to convey that problem to Dr Robertse and 

I am trying to reconcile everybody concerned in this matter 

so that these reports can be made available to the 

Committee, as public documents. I am in the process of 

nearly finalising that and it will be finalised hopefully 

later this afternoon. I cannot give you an indication 

hundred per cent when. Dr Robertse, I spoke to him this 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;160&#9;ADDRESS

morning, before the hearing started and he gave me an 

indication that he would be able to finalise it throughout 

the morning, but that he would - and he discussed it with 

me, that he would have, would like to have one final short 

discussion with Capt Hechter, and that is the position I 

find myself in, Mr Chairman. I have done my utmost to have 

it ready. I promised Monday, but there have been problems 

with this.

....Page 156, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Page 39?

ADV DU PLESSIS: No, that was in respect of the Swapo 

incident. Are you asking me about the Swapo incident?

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: That is at page 39.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, I beg your pardon. I thought you 

referred to the Gaberone bomb.

JUDGE MALL: We will adjourn at this stage to enable you to 

consider this memorandum and for us to read it as well, and 

we will resume at two o'clock.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, you asked no questions about the 

Nortjé evidence. I am going to tell you that, if in the 

interim you feel that you might want to consider the matter 

and put questions, you will be allowed to do so. Alright, 

we will adjourn now and resume at two o'clock.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

 

 

 

 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;161&#9;CAPT MENTZ

ON RESUMPTION

JUDGE MALL: Mr du Plessis, the memorandum which has been 

handed to me, is addressed to the Amnesty Committee and it 

bears the date 12th of March 1997. In it Mr Botha records 

the following, or rather what Mr Botha said was recorded as 

follows: That he objects most strongly to the 

unsubstantiated comments made by Mr Nortjé yesterday before 

the CommittEe which apparently were not challenged by any 

members of the Committee.

&#9;&#9;"According to Press reports today, Mr Cronjé 

alleged that there was no doubt that I knew of a 

security force plot to eliminate one of the master 

minds of the 1983 Church Street bomb blasts in 

Pretoria. According to the Press reports, Mr 

Cronjé alleged that I publicly claimed that a 

certain MacKenzie was an ANC member and that he 

had blown up his own vehicle. Mr Cronjé then 

stated that there was no doubt in his mind that I 

knew what the true situation was. Mr Cronjé did 

not indicate any source for this allegation. 

The facts are that the Botswana Government 

complained to the South African Government. The 

Department of Foreign Affairs, as is the normal 

practice, sent the Botswana Government's comment 

to the South African Security Forces. The South 

African Police responded that they had 

incontrovertible evidence that MacKenzie was being 

used by the ANC to transport weapons into South 

Africa from Botswana. The SAP also said that they 

had evidence that MacKenzie was in regular contact 

with certain members of the ANC in Zambia and 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE MALL&#9;162&#9;

&#9;&#9;Botswana. The SAP assured the Department of 

Foreign Affairs that the SAP was prepared to 

provide access to evidence which supported the 

facts which the SAP conveyed to the Department of 

Foreign Affairs. The `incontrovertible evidence' 

of the SAP was forwarded to the Botswana 

Government in June 1987 in a formal note which was 

released to the Press. It is obvious that Mr 

Cronjé and his colleagues have supplied false 

information to the Department of Foreign Affairs. 

It is also obvious that after Mr De Klerk's 

evidence that the Cabinet was often deceived by 

certain members of the SAP dealing with these 

matters. I consider Mr Cronjé's unsubstantiated 

allegations as a disgraceful attempt to draw 

attention away from his irresponsible activities. 

I will be grateful if the Committee could ask Mr 

Cronjé on what basis of fact he made these 

allegations. Due to lack of time I have no other 

means, but to convey the statement telephonically 

to the Committee."

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I firstly just want to place 

on record, according to Mr Mpshe, the reference to Mr De 

Klerk should be De Kock. I presume that's Eugene de Kock in 

his evidence.

JUDGE MALL: You are right.

ADV DU PLESSIS: And that should be rectified.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Now Mr Chairman, may I respond to this?

JUDGE MALL: Yes, please.

JUDGE MGOEPE: Why do you say De Kock, Mr Du Plessis?

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;163&#9;ADDRESS

ADV DU PLESSIS: I don't know, Mr Chairman, I was asked by 

Mr Mpshe. Perhaps he should address you on this.

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I was informed last by the person 

who took the message, Mr John Allen, who spoke with Mr Botha 

this morning. He says he has made a mistake, he didn't say 

De Klerk but De Kock.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV MPSHE: He conveyed this to me.

JUDGE MALL: After Mr De Kock's evidence?

ADV MPSHE: That is correct.

JUDGE MALL: Well, on the assumption that this ought to 

reflect Mr De Kock rather than Mr De Klerk, can we proceed 

further with this matter?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I can respond to this, and I 

would like Brig Cronjé to tell you exactly on what he based 

his allegation, and I will call him as a witness in that 

regard.

&#9;I firstly want to state that from Brig Cronjés point of

view I was asked to place on record, in respect of the 

second last sentence, where Minister Botha said that it is 

obvious that Mr Cronje and his colleagues have supplied 

false information to the Department of Foreign Affairs, that 

we reserve our rights in that regard. Mr Cronjé will give 

evidence about that now, he will deny it, but that we also 

reserve our rights pertaining to deal or specifically with 

the purpose to deal with this allegation in a different 

forum in this regard. We regard this as defamatory.

&#9;Now Mr Chairman, is it possible that I could call Brig 

Cronjé to explain to the Committee exactly on what he bases 

his evidence? Thank you.

JUDGE MALL: Please do call him.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;164&#9;BRIG CRONJE

MR DU PLESSIS CALLS:

BRIG CRONJÉ: (sworn states).

EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, you don't have 

your application before you. I am going to read it to you, 

the relevant part. You will find it on page 159 to 160. 

You there testified, Brigadier - can you just read it to us 

again, please, on the last paragraph of page 159:

BRIG CRONJE:&#9;"I remember when the bomb exploded, it may 

the headlines in the papers. Botswana 

complained to the South African Government. 

It was alleged that MacKenzie was a member of 

the ANC and that he blew up his own vehicle."

ADV DU PLESSIS: Then the first paragraph on page 160 -

BRIG CRONJE: &#9;"I have no doubt in my mind that Minister 

Botha had to know what the true situation 

was."

ADV DU PLESSIS: Can you please explain to the Committee 

why you say that there could not have been any doubt in your 

mind?

BRIG CRONJË: After the incident, I, myself, and Brig Loots, 

were called to van der Merwe's office after the incident. 

He wanted to find out exactly what had happened, how the 

operation went wrong and everything about that operation, 

because he said he would have to inform Minister Pik Botha. 

To my mind, to inform means that you tell him the truth. 

You do not want the true facts in order to inform him 

falsely. I know Gen van der Merwe so well that I know that 

he would not have lied to a Minister.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Is it on those grounds that you said that 

there was no doubt in your mind that Minister Botha knew?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, and furthermore, even MacKenzie had blown 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;165&#9;BRIG CRONJE

up his own vehicle he would have been dead, he would not 

have been living any more.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS

JUDGE MALL: Do I understand you to mean that the 

information that you gave to Gen van der Merwe, was in 

accordance with the evidence that you are giving here now?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: That that is the information that you conveyed 

to him?

BRIG CRONJË: I conveyed this information to Gen van der 

Merwe, I never lied to my generals.

JUDGE MALL: And you don't know how that was conveyed to Mr 

Pik Botha?

BRIG CRONJË: No, Mr Chairman, I don't know.

JUDGE MALL: The report was made to Gen Van der Merwe by you 

personally?

BRIG CRONJË: It was actually Brig Loots who informed him 

about the operation, because it was not my operation, it was 

Brig Loots'.

JUDGE MALL: And were you present throughout?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Any questions?

JUDGE WILSON: Did you know anything about the formal note 

which was released to the Press?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, I read that in the papers.

JUDGE WILSON: And was that note correct, did it correctly 

reflect what had happened?

BRIG CRONJË: No, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: Was that the incorrect version?

BRIG CRONJË: That's correct.

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

JUDGE WILSON&#9;166&#9;BRIG CRONJE

JUDGE WILSON: Was that a note formally released to the 

Press by the Department of Foreign Affairs?

BRIG CRONJË: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE WILSON: And you don't know where they got their 

information from?

BRIG CRONJË: No, Chairman, I accept that it would have been 

from Gen Van der Merwe.

ADV DE JAGER: Brigadier, I don't know whether you have the 

memo in front of you, the affidavit. I would like you to 

have one in front of you. The first or rather the second 

paragraph Mr Botha is talking about reports he saw in the 

Press now. He also says that according to the reports in 

the Press, he now sees in the Press, he says Mr Cronjé, that 

"an allegation was made that a certain MacKenzie was a 

member of the ANC, was an ANC member and that he had blown 

up his own vehicle. ".

BRIG CRONJË: That is what was in the paper, in today's 

newspaper.

ADV DE JAGER: I am talking about the first article in the 

first paper right after the incident.

ADV DE JAGER: I can't understand this memo. The way I read 

it according to Press reports today, Mr Cronjé alleged.

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, then I agree with you.

ADV DE JAGER: So it was the recent Press reports after you 

have given evidence.

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: You must please help me now because I do not 

remember, I do not recall you saying that MacKenzie had been 

an ANC member who blew up his own vehicle.

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, I never said that. I said that MacKenzie 

had been an informant and that his vehicle had been blown up 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DE JAGER&#9;167&#9;BRIG CRONJE

by somebody else.

ADV DE JAGER: Therefore this quotation Mr Botha here 

quotes, was read somewhere in a paper that gave the facts of 

your evidence wrongly. And in the second paragraph, he 

discusses what he then did. And there he nowhere says that 

anybody told him that MacKenzie had blown up his own 

vehicle. BRIG CRONJË: That's right.

ADV DE JAGER: He only says there that MacKenzie had been an 

ANC agent who brought weapons to South Africa. Was that 

not in accordance what you informed them at that stage, that 

MacKenzie had transported weapons in the vehicle?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, that was what happened and what was in 

the papers at that stage.

ADV DE JAGER: The vehicle had been registered in 

MacKenzie's name. 

BRIG CRONJË: I said that the number plates of the vehicle 

were registered in MacKenzie's name. 

ADV DE JAGER: But it was not said in this report that 

MacKenzie had died in the incident or that he blew up his 

own vehicle.

BRIG CRONJË: No.

JUDGE WILSON: Was he one of the masterminds of the 1983 

Church Street bomb blast?

BRIG CRONJË: Mnisi was, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, do you have any questions to put to 

the brigadier?

ADV MPSHE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE

JUDGE MALL: Mr Du Plessis, before I excuse him, are there 

any other questions you would like to put to him?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to clear up one 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;168&#9;BRIG CRONJE

thing if you would give me one second, please.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Mpshe, I just want to hear, was Mr Botha 

advised that he has been implicated in this application?

ADV MPSHE: Not yet, Mr Chairman.

ADV DE JAGER: Well, he's been implicated in the application 

itself, he wasn't implicated during the evidence.

ADV MPSHE: He was implicated during the evidence, yes.

ADV DE JAGER: No, on page 156 of the application he has 

been implicated.

ADV MPSHE: Of the applicant's ...

ADV DE JAGER: Of the applicant's application.

ADV MPSHE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Or 159, I don't know, I haven't got the ...

ADV MPSHE: 160, no, no, I wasn't aware of it, he was not 

involved.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Mr Du Plessis?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. 

Brigadier, these Press reports of Mr Botha where he makes 

these allegations, did you see these Press articles 

personally?

BRIG CRONJË: Yes, I did.

JUDGE MALL: Is that all?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I just want to make sure that 

the witness understood me.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Brigadier, the Press releases I am talking 

about, I am talking about this week's Press items.

BRIG CRONJË: That is correct, yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY ADV DU PLESSIS

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

&#9;169&#9;BRIG CRONJE

JUDGE MALL: Thank you very much, Brigadier.

BRIG CRONJË: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

WITNESS EXCUSED

JUDGE MALL: This memorandum will be numbered as an EXHIBIT 

EE.

EXHIBIT EE HANDED IN

WITNESS EXCUSED

JUDGE MALL: Yes?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, then that concludes our work for 

the day. What remains are the matters that are of non-

gross violations which as agreed upon earlier on, will be 

dealt with in chambers. Mr Chairman, I am informed by my 

learned friend about the psychiatrist's report, that it will 

be available tomorrow, which would mean that the Committee 

adjourns and indicate a time when we are to resume for the 

purposes of that report.

JUDGE MALL: What is the earliest that the report will be 

available, Mr Du Plessis?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, we are going directly to 

Stellenbosch to see Prof Robertse. I could have it available 

tonight. I want to try and make arrangements to fax it to Mr 

Currin and it would be available early tomorrow morning. We 

can deal with it at eight o'clock or earlier. 

ADV DE JAGER: Mr Du Plessis, if I turn up here at six 

o'clock tomorrow and you haven't got that report here and 

you ask for the matter to stand down ...

ADV DU PLESSIS: I won't Mr Chair.

JUDGE MALL: Very well, Gentlemen, the Committee will 

adjourn until nine o'clock tomorrow morning, in the hope 

that we will finalise this as soon as possible thereafter.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I will give you my undertaking 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

&#9;170&#9;

that tomorrow morning we will finalise it.

JUDGE MALL: Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION:

JUDGE MALL: Yes, Gentlemen?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, we 

have had an opportunity yesterday afternoon to visit Prof 

Robertse in Stellenbosch. He did have another consultation 

with Capt Hechter and we were able to sort out any problems 

- all the problems regarding the report. It is possible for 

me to hand in a report in respect of each of the five 

applicants. 

&#9;The report is accompanied by Prof Robertse's curriculum 

vitae, as well as a letter in which he explains the fact 

that he had to consult again with Capt Hechter, and that he 

could not do that in Cape Town yesterday. I requested him 

yesterday afternoon when we adjourned, if he could come to 

Cape Town so that we could finalise it here and it might 

have been possible to deal with this perhaps late yesterday 

afternoon, but it wasn't possible.&#9;I beg leave to hand up 

copies of the report to you. 

&#9;Mr Chairman, I don't intend to deal with the contents 

of the report at this point in time. I believe that would 

be ANNEXURE FF, if my memory serves me correct.

&#9;Mr Chairman, the report is an extensive report. If I 

can just give you a little bit of background about the 

report. It is an extensive report, dealing with firstly, 

post-traumatic stress, with specific emphasis on memory 

loss, but not only that, as a general background. Then it 

gives an evaluation of each of the applicants. It discusses 

the problems that they currently have, as a result of the 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;171&#9;ADDRESS

actions they were involved in, and it specifically then also 

deals with the question of memory loss. It does not only 

deal with that question. It deals with a further variety of 

issues which we deem important for purposes of argument in 

this regard. Specifically with reference to the general 

background in respect of which the applicants operated. I 

will refer to the report in my argument, unless you want me 

to address you on something specific out of the report.

JUDGE MALL: I understood yesterday that you were going to 

find out from Mr Currin whether he has any views on this 

matter. Has that been done?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, obviously because of the 

logistical problem, we had a problem. My attorney, Mr Britz 

did speak to Mr Currin. He said - to his personnel. He 

couldn't get hold of him personally. They indicated that 

there wasn't a problem, that the report could go in, but 

they said that we should place on record that they reserve 

all their rights pertaining to this report and that they 

will let the Committee have their view on this in due 

course. 

&#9;I may mention that I had a discussion with Mr Currin 

before, last week, about this report and the possibility 

that oral evidence would be required. He gave me an 

indication that he does not think that that would be 

necessary and only if the circumstances really warrant it, 

he would ask for such an opportunity. We obviously, if he 

wants to do that, we obviously will have discussions with 

him, see if we can't sort whatever he wants to deal with, 

sort that out between ourselves, so that we perhaps could 

present the Committee then with a joint separate report or a 

memorandum, pertaining to his problems and the answers 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;172&#9;ADDRESS

thereto. 

&#9;What I foresee, Mr Chairman, is that if he has certain 

questions, they could perhaps be put by him to Dr Robertse 

telephonically. It could be taped and it could be 

transcribed or it could be dealt with in any other way that 

would make the Committee's task much easier, instead of 

calling him as a witness. Obviously if the members of the 

Committee wish to ask Dr Robertse questions the same 

procedure can be followed or he can be called to give 

evidence. He is prepared to give evidence.

&#9;I don't know if there are any further aspects 

pertaining to this, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: The way I understand it, a copy of this 

particular document has not yet reached Mr Currin. Is that 

it?

ADV DU PLESSIS: It hasn't, Mr Chairman. We will, we are 

going to try to do that today. 

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: We will let him have that.

JUDGE MALL: Well, on the understanding that you have 

conveyed to us that you will endeavour to discuss this 

matter with Mr Currin, it may be that after you have 

discussed it, you will submit jointly a memorandum. If it 

transpires that Mr Currin requires the witness to be called 

to give evidence or for himself to call a consultant to give 

evidence, we will deal with that matter when that problem 

arises.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is my suggestion, Mr Chairman. I 

don't want to belabour the Committee with that, I think Mr 

Currin and ourselves can deal with that very easily, as we 

have dealt with other issues during these hearings, and I 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;173&#9;ADDRESS

think we can come to a very satisfactory conclusion without 

a problem.

JUDGE WILSON: Could I also add that I would suggest if that 

does arise, arrangements should be made to hear the witness 

elsewhere and not - we don't all have to come down to Cape 

Town for that purpose.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, obviously an arrangement can be made 

which suits the members of the Commission the best and we 

will make arrangements to be available in that regard.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, have you any comments to make in this 

regard?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, thank you, I don't have any 

comment, but just to confirm what my learned friend has told 

the Committee about Mr Brian Currin. I also had a 

discussion with him telephonically yesterday and he stated 

to me exactly what my learned friend has just conveyed to 

the Committee. Thank you.

JUDGE MALL: Thank you. Thank you very much. This document, 

including the letter from Dr Robertse and all the annexures 

thereto, will figure as EXHIBIT FF, in these proceedings.

EXHIBIT FF HANDED IN

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, then 

there is only one issue left, and that is, we gave the 

Committee an undertaking that in respect of the matter of 

Brian Ngqulunga, we would endeavour also to obtain the 

record of the evidence that he gave at the Harms Commission. 

We have been able to obtain that, Mr Chairman. I don't 

have the usual confirmation that it is a correct transcript, 

et cetera. This - one of our other clients, one of Mr 

Britz' other clients obtained this for us. I don't have any 

reason to believe that it is not correct, but I don't have 

the 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;174&#9;ADDRESS

normal confirmation thereof. But I, however, do have copies 

for the Committee which I beg leave to hand up.

&#9;Mr Chairman, I don't intend to deal with that record at 

all in evidence by Capt Mentz at all, and I will only use it 

in argument, for argument purposes. Mr Chairman, that would 

be Exhibit GG.

JUDGE MALL: This transcript of the evidence given by Mr 

Brian Ngqulunga before the Harms Commission will be received 

by the Committee as EXHIBIT GG.

EXHIBIT GG HANDED IN 

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Is there any other matter, Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I don't know whether to 

raise that here, Mr Chairman, but it pertains to the 

discussion between the Chair and members with the lady, Ms 

Pumla. I don't think it can be raised here.

JUDGE MALL: Ja.

ADV MPSHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Then there is nothing 

more to say.

JUDGE MALL: You will make available a copy of the report?

ADV MPSHE: I have made it available to her.

JUDGE MALL: Thanks.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I'm sorry, there is just one 

issue that I would like to raise and that is the question of 

the heads of argument and the question of judgment. It is 

something that we could discuss it with chambers with you or 

we could raise it here. I just want an indication from you.

JUDGE MALL: We should talk about heads of argument, so that 

all of us have some idea as to when we would be able to 

attend to this matter, in the absence of calling any further 

evidence. 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;175&#9;BRIG CRONJE

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, there are a few issues 

that have to be cleared up in that regard.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Well, now are we not in a position to fix 

a time by which heads of argument is to come in?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, yes, that wouldn't be a 

problem. I would need, I would say approximately three to 

four weeks inbetween, inbetween other matters that I have to 

deal with, to be able to finalise the heads of argument.

JUDGE WILSON: Would you base your argument on the typed 

transcript to the evidence?

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, and that would also cause 

a problem.

JUDGE WILSON: Yes, our experience in the past, I think, to 

say three to four weeks might be a little ambitious.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, I am a bit apprehensive in committing 

myself to that. That was obviously on the basis that I have 

the record available on Monday, that I can start, which I 

don't think would be the case. We have the record of the 

first part of the hearing.

JUDGE MALL: Mr Mpshe, have you any objection to the 

arrangement that counsel be allowed four weeks within which 

to submit his heads of argument?

ADV MPSHE: Mr Chairman, I would have no problem with that, 

Mr Chairman, but I just want to indicate that the record is 

not yet available, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: I understand that, yes. The heads of argument 

can be commenced with, in respect of that portion of the 

hearing where the record is completed, so regular work can 

be done in the meanwhile.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, may I enquire from the Chair 

if it would be possible for me to approach the Committee 

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ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;176&#9;ADDRESS

perhaps, or yourself, if there is a problem with the 

availability of the last part of the record, and I see that 

there isn't enough time. The reason why I am prepared to 

commit myself to a period soon after the hearings, is the 

fact that we deem it important to have the heads of argument 

in and we want to deal with this while everything is fresh 

in our minds.

JUDGE MALL: Of course.

ADV DU PLESSIS: May I approach you then when a problem 

arises pertaining to the record, Mr Chairman?

JUDGE MALL: Yes, there is no hard and fast rule, but we 

were hoping that if we discussed the matter here publicly, 

it is clear to all interested parties, that this matter is 

not just going to drag on and on, you know, and the public 

knows nothing about when we are going to be turning our mind 

to this application. So I think it is important for the 

public to know that the next step in these proceedings is 

going to be heads of argument, which at present are to be 

four weeks from now, and if there are difficulties in the 

way of obtaining a transcript of the evidence, that is a 

factor which the Committee will take into account.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Thank you.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, if you will just bear with me 

for one moment.

JUDGE MALL: Yes.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, I beg your pardon. Mr 

Chairman, there is one aspect which I want to raise with the 

Committee and that is the question, if the heads of argument 

is presented to the Committee, can we accept that the 

applications have been finalised and the applications will 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;177&#9;ADDRESS

then be adjudged on the basis of the evidence presented to 

the Committee coupled with the heads of argument? 

Obviously, if that is not the case, I would like an 

indication from the Committee exactly how possibly other 

amnesty applications might have an influence on that, 

because it might be important for me to present you with 

supplementary heads of argument, pertaining to other 

applications if the Committee is going to take the contents 

of other applications into account.

JUDGE MALL: I think you must assume that when the time 

comes for the Committee to consider this massive volume of 

evidence, and its far-reaching implications, that if at some 

stage in the near future, other applicants give evidence, 

whose evidence may impact on your client's case, your 

attention will be drawn to that. You will be afforded an 

opportunity to react to it.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, I just want to clear this 

out that I would then have the right to present you with 

supplementary - if you haven't given judgment yet, to 

present you with supplementary heads of argument pertaining 

to that evidence in the other application that is going to 

be led by somebody else.

JUDGE MALL: Well, the whole purpose of drawing it to your 

attention is to enable you to deal with the matter.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I just wanted to 

...(intervention)

JUDGE WILSON: As I recollect, one of your clients yesterday 

asked us to have regard to the evidence of someone else who 

had made an application. Could I add something to what the 

Chairman has said about notification. It seems to me that 

it might well be in your interest if you are notified of 

CAPE TOWN HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/W CAPE

&#9;178&#9;

hearings. Rather than merely the evidence that was later - 

because obviously you would be - your clients should be 

interested parties at such hearings.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, Mr Chairman, we would appreciate that 

if the Commission could let us know of all hearings that are 

scheduled so that we can decide exactly where we have to ...

JUDGE WILSON: Well, all hearings relating to incidents that 

your clients have been involved in or may be.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes.

JUDGE WILSON: And clearly you don't want to be told about 

hearings that have nothing whatsoever to do with them.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, but Mr Chairman, what I do foresee is 

that we also act for about 20 other applicants. So I do 

foresee that we might be here in respect of other 

applications as well. So we would like to have a schedule 

of all hearings that are scheduled so that we can decide. 

We will take it up with the Commission.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Alright. This brings to a conclusion the 

proceedings this morning, Mr Mpshe?

ADV MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman, thank you.

JUDGE MALL: Yes. Mr Mpshe, is the position that the 

Committee's next public hearing is going to be in East 

London on Monday morning?

ADV MPSHE: That is so, Mr Chairman.

JUDGE MALL: Very well. The Committee now adjourns and if 

there are any further developments that impact on this 

particular application, notice to all interested parties 

will be given. You will make a copy of your heads of 

argument insofar as they are relevant to Mr Currin's client 

as well.

ADV DU PLESSIS: Yes, MR Chairman, I will make available a 

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ADV DU PLESSIS&#9;179&#9;ADDRESS

copy of my heads of argument to Mr Currin, and I will also 

endeavour to make it available to Mr Visser, if he should be 

interested and Mrs Kruger and anybody else who appeared 

during the hearings.

JUDGE MALL: Thank you. Thank you very much. The Committee 

adjourns.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

 

 

 

