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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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 &#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;&#9;5TH FEBRUARY 1999

NAME:&#9;&#9;BONGANI S NGUBANE

APPLICATION NO: AM1946/96

MATTER:&#9;&#9;MEMESI UMKHUMALO

DAY:&#9;&#9;&#9;5

______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, the matter on the roll for today is that of Ngubane, Saviour Ngubane, Application Number AM1946/96.

MR NADASEN: May it please the tribunal Honourable Chairperson, I appear for the applicant, surname Nadasen, initial S.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you the applicant in this matter?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

BONGANI S NGUBANE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR NADASEN: Mr Ngubane, it will be necessary for you to speak slowly because whatever you say or whatever I say will be translated so it will help all of us and it will also help you if after you've said one or two sentences for you to stop and then to continue, do you understand?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Now Mr Ngubane is it correct that you are currently serving a prison sentence of 10 years?

MR NGUBANE: Yes that is correct.

MR NADASEN: And is it also correct that you started serving this sentence from the 17th May 1996?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR NADASEN: Why are you serving this sentence?

MR NGUBANE: I killed Mr Memesi Umkhumalo.

MR NADASEN: Mr Memesi Umkhumalo and is it correct that you killed Mr Memesi in and during March 1994?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR NADASEN: Now Mr Ngubane, we need to examine and find out the reason why you killed Mr Memesi and I'm going to ask you some questions that go back to 1992 and then 1993 and then 1994. Now in 1992 where were you living.

MR NGUBANE: I was living in the Umbombo district.

MR NADASEN: Umbombo?

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't hear that, what district?

INTERPRETER: Umbombo?

CHAIRPERSON: Umbombo, thank you.

MR NADASEN: And is it correct that you were born in 1959?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR NADASEN: Is it also correct that you are married and that you have two wives?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR NADASEN: And is it also correct that you have 13 children?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR NADASEN: In 1992 were you working?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Where were you working?

MR NGUBANE: I was working as a driver for a construction company in Empangeni.

MR NADASEN: How long had you been working for the company?

MR NGUBANE: I had worked there for three years.

MR NADASEN: Now in 1992 were you a member of any political organisation?

MR NGUBANE: I was a member of the IFP.

MR NADASEN: For how long had you been a member of the IFP?

MR NGUBANE: When I was born and raised I grew up with the IFP.

MR NADASEN: So you were a member of the IFP for practically your whole life up to 1992?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR NADASEN: And were you an active member of the IFP, what did you do?

MR NGUBANE: I used to organise the youth meetings.

MR NADASEN: And did you attend many meetings?

MR NGUBANE: Yes, if there was a meeting to be held I would attend it even meetings that were held in Durban.

MR NADASEN: Did you hold any position, any official position in the local IFP branch?

MR NGUBANE: No.

MR NADASEN: Now was there any other political party in the area where you lived?

MR NGUBANE: No.

MR NADASEN: Now sometime in 1992, did somebody start recruiting for the African National Congress?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Now who was this person?

MR NGUBANE: Simon Sikale.

MR NADASEN: Did you know Mr Simon Sikale?

MR NGUBANE: Yes I knew him.

MR NADASEN: Was he a friend of yours?

MR NGUBANE: No.

MR NADASEN: Did you just know him as somebody who lived in the area?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: And how did Mr Simon Sikale go about recruiting members for the ANC?

MR NGUBANE: There was a meeting that was held.

MR NADASEN: And did many people attend that meeting?

MR NGUBANE: There were some who attended the meeting but I wouldn't say there were that many.

MR NADASEN: Did you attend the meeting?

MR NGUBANE: I was called and asked to go. I went to the meeting after Simon Sikale had pointed a gun at me.

CHAIRPERSON: What meeting was this, the meeting of the IFP?

MR NADASEN: I understood the applicant to mean that Mr Simon Sikale was recruiting for the African National Congress.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand but I'm talking about at a meeting?

MR NADASEN: At a meeting, I'll clear that up.

&#9;Mr Ngubane, this meeting that we're talking about, the one that Mr Simon Sikale wanted people to attend. Was that an IFP meeting or an ANC meeting?

MR NGUBANE: It was an ANC meeting.

MR NADASEN: Now you say that Mr Sikale pointed a gun at you?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Now where did this happen?

MR NGUBANE: It happened in the area, he actually found me whilst I was filling up the car with petrol at Juzini.

MR NADASEN: Are you saying that he pointed a gun at you in public?

MR NGUBANE: Yes, some people did see this.

MR NADASEN: And what did he tell you when he pointed this gun at you?

MR NGUBANE: He said I should go to the meeting, he needed me there because he wanted to talk to me.

MR NADASEN: Did he threaten you?

MR NGUBANE: Did he say what would happen to you if you refused to attend the meeting?

MR NADASEN: Yes he said by that time they'd already killed a certain person from ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't hear that, can you just repeat that? What did he tell you what did the witness say?

INTERPRETER: He said: Yes he did threaten me because by that time they'd already killed someone by the surname of Nglovo.

MR NADASEN: Mr Ngubane, when Sikale approached you, did he approach you already with a gun drawn or did he start talking before he drew the gun?

MR NGUBANE: I was sitting in the car and the car was being filled up with petrol. When I turned Mr Sikale was standing outside my window with a gun pointed at me.

MR NADASEN: Didn't you get afraid?

MR NGUBANE: Yes I became very afraid.

MR NADASEN: Is the any reason why he wanted to point a gun at you, was he afraid of you?

MR NGUBANE: I am not in a position to tell whether he was afraid of me but I think we had different opinions because I did not want to join his organisation.

MR NADASEN: How did he know that you didn't want to join his organisation?

MR NGUBANE: We had met previously and he had tried to talk to me.

MR NADASEN: And when he spoke with you previously what did he tell you?

MR NGUBANE: He said because I have knowledge about politics, how would it be if we collaborated and worked together in trying to recruit people into the organisation.

MR NADASEN: But he knew you were a member of the IFP, not so?

MR NGUBANE: I think he did know because the area was an IFP stronghold.

MR NADASEN: So when he asked you to join forces, what did you reply?

MR NGUBANE: I refused and I said I cannot accept his offer because I knew what the situation normally was when there were two organisations, these two opposing organisations existed together.

MR NADASEN: Did he become angry?

MR NGUBANE: He was not happy about it. Eventually we agreed that we would discuss the matter on some other date.

MR NADASEN: Were you also not happy about the matter?

MR NGUBANE: Yes I was also unhappy about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I just intervene at this stage? Did this take place on the occasion when he pointed that gun at you or are you talking about what had happened on a prior occasion?

MR NGUBANE: It was on a prior occasion.

CHAIRPERSON: Now on the day that he pointed a gun at you what transpired? I'm sorry, are you coming to that?

MR NADASEN: I'm coming to that.

CHAIRPERSON: Well do carry on.

MR NADASEN: Now let's get back to the day when you were at the petrol station and you turned around and you saw a gun pointed at you. Did you say anything?

MR NGUBANE: I was shocked.

MR NADASEN: Did you do anything?

MR NGUBANE: I was shocked and he came around and got into the car.

MR NADASEN: Did he come to the passenger seat in front, the front passenger seat?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Did he still have the gun with him?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: And what happened then?

MR NGUBANE: He said I should drive the car, proceed to where the meeting was being held or where the meeting was to be held.

MR NADASEN: And what did you do?

MR NGUBANE: I did as he had told me and when we arrived at that place, at the venue, it was already late and he told me that I should come on the following day, on the following morning, with R100 joining fee.

MR NADASEN: So from the petrol station ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were you supposed to go with the R100's on the following day?

MR NGUBANE: Where the meeting was held at the grounds.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR NADASEN: And then what did you do?

MR NGUBANE: I did not go there on the following day, I went to the Inkosi.

MR NADASEN: Yes and what happened?

MR NGUBANE: When I got to the Inkosi's place I reported the matter to him that Mr Sikale had pointed a gun at me and that he had further told me to attend that meeting and that I should bring that R100 joining fee.

MR NADASEN: And what advice did Inkosi give you?

MR NGUBANE: The Inkosi put it clearly that he was not aware of such a meeting and he disagreed with such a meeting taking place.

MR NADASEN: I then asked him what I could do, what steps should I take and the Inkosi said he does not know what he can do to help me because he is as human as I am. He said he would advise me to go and report the matter to the police.

MR NADASEN: Honourable Chairperson, would the tribunal allow me some latitude in leading the witness? I am attempting to put a time frame, a sequential time frame and if need be the tribunal could then ask questions. This has become necessary because in taking instructions the applicant confuses sometimes the sequence of events and I'd like to help the tribunal in that respect.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand, you may proceed.

MR NADASEN: Mr Ngubane, if need be we'll come back to your discussions with the Inkosi and so on but I now want to go to 1993 and I want to go to round about the period of June 1993. Is it correct that Mr Simon Sikale or did Mr Simon Sikale want people to come onto the streets to toyi-toyi?

MR NGUBANE: Yes he did.

MR NADASEN: Now will you tell us where this happened?

MR NGUBANE: It happened in the Jobe area.

MR NADASEN: Where was this, which place?

MR NGUBANE: It is in the Umbombo District.

MR NADASEN: Umbombo. Now was Mr Simon Sikale alone?

MR NGUBANE: No he was not alone.

MR NADASEN: Who was with him?

MR NGUBANE: They were a group, one of the people who was there was Gedle Gumede.

MR NADASEN: Anyone else?

CHAIRPERSON: Could you spell the first name of Mr Gumede?

MR NGUBANE: G-e-d-l-e.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NGUBANE: The other person was Mr Memesi Umkhumalo.

MR NADASEN: This is the same Mr Memesi in respect of whom you are currently serving a prison sentence for having murdered him?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Now all in all, how many persons were with Mr Simon Sikale?

MR NGUBANE: I could estimate them to be over thirty.

MR NADASEN: And you say they - did they ask people to come and toyi-toyi and did they force people to come and toyi-toyi, can you tell us anything?

MR NGUBANE: Initially they started by asking them but as time went on they later forced them.

CHAIRPERSON: Now can I just interrupt? I'm talking about whether they asked you and whether you saw them asking others as well or is it what you heard?

MR NADASEN: I'm coming to that Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Ngubane, did anyone ask you to come and toyi-toyi?

MR NGUBANE: It was only Mr Sikale who had actually pointed that gun at me, no one else did.

MR NADASEN: Now just let's get this clear, you're saying that Mr Sikale asked you to come and toyi-toyi, is that correct?

MR NGUBANE: He told me to go there.

MR NADASEN: Yes, did he point a gun at you when he said you must come and toyi-toyi?

MR NGUBANE: When he told me to bring that joining fee he was pointing a gun at me.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see, that pointing of gun was on a prior occasion.

MR NADASEN: Prior occasion. So, when he asked you come and toyi-toyi he didn't point a gun at you?

MR NGUBANE: The only time that he told me about his activities was on that day when he pointed the gun at me.

MR NADASEN: Now did you go out to toyi-toyi?

MR NGUBANE: No I did not.

MR NADASEN: Did you just refuse and tell him you're not going out or what happened?

MR NGUBANE: I did not tell him that I would not arrive, what I told him was that I would go there because he had threatened me.

MR NADASEN: Go where? Go where to toyi-toyi.

MR NGUBANE: What I told him was that I would go but I knew that I wasn't going to.

ADV DE JAGER: Isn't he perhaps confusing the previous occasion of bringing the money and this later occasion of in the street?

MR NADASEN: Thank you. My instructions are no, they are - that's why I needed to follow it sequentially. May I beg indulgence to lead him according to my instruction and then to attempt to introduce a measure of coherence in his version?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes for example where was he supposed to go, he said he told them "I would go". Where"

MR NADASEN: Yes. Mr Ngubane, we must only now talk about the time now when Mr Simon Sikale asked you to toyi-toyi. You said you refused but you told him you would go somewhere to toyi-toyi. Where is this somewhere, where did you say "I'll go to."

MR NGUBANE: I had told him that I would come to bring that joining fee to the grounds where the meeting was held.

MR NADASEN: Okay, to the grounds. Was this a sports ground?

MR NGUBANE: Yes it is a sports ground but they would hold those meetings there.

MR NADASEN: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I thought that that business about going to the grounds was on an occasion in '90?

MR NADASEN: That was a separate occasion, the occasion he was asked to toyi-toyi, he had no intention of going there but told him that I would go there to toyi-toyi. Where was he supposed to go to toyi-toyi, where was this supposed to take place?

MR NADASEN: My instructions are that this was supposed to take place at he referred to as a ground, as a field where persons played soccer.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR NADASEN: Now Mr Ngubane, I want to go now to Christmas Day, 25th December 1993. On that day did something happen to your brother?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: And your brother's name is Gibson Ngubane, is that correct?

MR NGUBANE: Yes that is correct.

MR NADASEN: And is it also correct that something happened to your cousin Mr Vilape Mafuleka?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you kindly spell that name to me, the surname?

MR NGUBANE: M-a-f-u-l-e-k-a.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NADASEN: Would you tell us what happened to him?

MR NGUBANE: Gibson Ngubane was killed on the 25th as well as Vilape, Vilape Mafuleka. They were killed on the road nearby the gate, his house gate.

MR NADASEN: Mr Ngubane, please speak slowly as I've requested, after two sentences wait until the translation. Now maybe it would help us if you respond to my questions. Now just answer this question, who killed them?

MR NGUBANE: Simon Sikale and the deceased Memesi Umkhumalo.

MR NADASEN: How do you know that it was these two men who killed your brother and your cousin?

MR NGUBANE: I was around.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say I was around what do you mean?

MR NGUBANE: I was there.

CHAIRPERSON: You saw that happening?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: And where did this take place?

MR NGUBANE: It occurred at the Jobe area.

MR NADASEN: Could you repeat, which?

MR NGUBANE: Jobe area.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell me how you spell that?

MR NGUBANE: J-o-b-e.

MR NADASEN: Where exactly in the Jobe area?

MR NGUBANE: The court is Umbombo and the headman there is, the area there is called Jobe, in Inkosi there.

MR NADASEN: Now did this killing take place near the Inkosi's house or where did it take place?

MR NGUBANE: In the Inkosi's area.

MR NADASEN: Do you mean by that near his house?

MR NGUBANE: Although it is a distance but it is in the same area because it is under the Inkosi's jurisdiction.

MR NADASEN: You said that you were present when this happened, is that correct?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Now how did it happen that you came to be in that area?

MR NGUBANE: I was driving going to the chief, I went to the Induna, Makanya Gumede, driving my car.

MR NADASEN: Were you alone?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Where were you coming from?

MR NGUBANE: From my house running away to the Induna.

MR NADASEN: Why were you running away?

MR NGUBANE: I was going to report what has just happened to me.

MR NADASEN: I will come back to what you say was happening to you but let's stick now to the point that you were driving your car, going to the Induna, Mr Gumede, then what happened?

MR NGUBANE: On my arrival at the Induna or when I was from the Induna's area I met Simon Sikale in the area where they killed my brother.

MR NADASEN: Where did you meet Simon Sikale?

MR NGUBANE: On the road.

MR NADASEN: And where did you meet your brother and Mr Vilape?

MR NGUBANE: They were standing there on the road with Sikale.

MR NADASEN: And when you came up to them in your car, what happened?

MR NGUBANE: I stopped because they instructed me to stop.

MR NADASEN: Who threatened you to stop?

MR NGUBANE: Instructed.

MR NADASEN: But who instructed you to stop?

MR NGUBANE: It was a group and there was no way through so they actually used their hands showing that I should stop.

MR NADASEN: Did you in fact stop?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: And what happened?

MR NGUBANE: And they asked me what made me not to and they asked me why didn't I arrive on time, the playground.

MR NADASEN: And what did you say?

MR NGUBANE: I said I was still going to borrow money, I indicated to them that I was still going to borrow money from the Induna.

MR NADASEN: And what happened next?

MR NGUBANE: And then they pulled my brother and Vilape.

MR NADASEN: Who pulled him?

MR NGUBANE: It was Simon Sikale and them.

MR NADASEN: Who is them, Simon and who?

MR NGUBANE: And Memesi Umkhumalo.

MR NADASEN: Now when you say they pulled your brother...(intervention)

MR NGUBANE: It was a group but mainly Simon Sikale and Memesi Umkhumalo and Gale and the rest, the entire group.

MR NADASEN: But you are sure about these three individuals you have named?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: So they pull your brother and your cousin, what do you mean by that?

MR NGUBANE: They pulled them to a distance because they were nearby their car just to move away about three steps or about ten steps away from the car.

MR NADASEN: Where were you at this time?

MR NGUBANE: I was outside the car, I was standing there watching.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they pull them about 10 paces away from your car?

MR NADASEN: Did your brother and Mr Vilape, were they pulled away ten paces from your car, is that correct?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: And what happened after they had been pulled away from your car?

MR NGUBANE: They shot my brother.

MR NADASEN: Who shot your brother?

MR NGUBANE: He was shot by Simon.

MR NADASEN: Did you see it, Simon shooting your brother?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Did you say anything or do anything?

MR NGUBANE: I didn't say anything nor do anything, I had nothing to say.

MR NADASEN: What about your cousin, Mr Vilape?

MR NGUBANE: They also shot him there.

MR NADASEN: Now do you know on what part of the body they shot your brother?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Where?

MR NGUBANE: As he's point there, there on the ribs.

MR NADASEN: And what about Mr Vilape?

MR NGUBANE: Nearby the ear.

MR NADASEN: And who shot Mr Vilape?

MR NGUBANE: The person who was carrying a gun, that's the deceased, it's the person who was actually ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you talking about Umkhumalo?

MR NGUBANE: Or the other person killed Vilape.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say the other person?

MR NGUBANE: I wouldn't remember that person's name but he's the one who took the gun and shot Vilape.

MR NADASEN: After your brother and Mr Vilape had been shot, what happened to them?

MR NGUBANE: When Gibson was shot he didn't die instantly and then they took a butcher knife and they slayed him.

MR NADASEN: Now when you say they took a butcher knife and they slayed him, tell us exactly what you saw?

MR NGUBANE: They shot him, he fell on the ground, he was lying on the floor, he wasn't dead by then. He was able to speak by then. The late Memesi Umkhumalo took that butcher knife and actually slayed him.

MR NADASEN: Now is it correct that someone decapitated your brother, did someone chop his head off?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Who did it?

MR NGUBANE: The late Memesi Umkhumalo.

MR NADASEN: And what about Mr Vilape?

MR NGUBANE: No he just died because of one bullet.

MR NADASEN: After your brother and cousin had been killed, what happened next?

MR NGUBANE: We were told that everyone was there is actually supposed to hit the corpse with whatever, a stick and whoever had a spear was supposed to actually stab the corpse.

MR NADASEN: Now let's go back a bit, you said after your brother and cousin and been killed, someone told you that - someone told all the people present that they either had to stab the corpse or assault the corpse with a stick. Now who said that?

MR NGUBANE: Simon Sikale.

MR NADASEN: And after Mr Simon Sikale said that, what happened?

MR NGUBANE: They all did that, I was crying by then and then I said I can do anything he says and then I actually begged him not to make me do that, to hit the corpse or stab the corpse.

MR NADASEN: Now when you told Mr Sikale you can do anything but what he wanted to do, what did you mean you'll do anything but violate the corpses?

MR NGUBANE: I was going to do that but I would actually ...(indistinct) the money that he needed, I would actually take people to the ground where he actually want to have the meeting.

MR NADASEN: What was Mr Sikale's response?

MR NGUBANE: He said I must take those people and take them to the ground.

MR NADASEN: When you're saying take those people, who are you referring to?

MR NGUBANE: The ones that he was with because they were in a group. 

MR NADASEN: And what did you do?

MR NGUBANE: Indeed I took them, dropped them there by the ground and they actually got a chance to escape.

MR NADASEN: How far was the ground from where this incident had occurred?

MR NGUBANE: I can actually say it is a distance, if I'm not mistaken it would be about 5 kilometres.

MR NADASEN: How many persons did you take with you in your car to the grounds?

MR NGUBANE: I didn't count because it was a 4X4, they were just hopping in.

MR NADASEN: And was that your car?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: When you got to the grounds what happened?

MR NGUBANE: They actually got the chance for them to jump out and I actually gave them a chance to escape.

MR NADASEN: And when you say they got a chance to escape, what do you mean?

MR NGUBANE: I got a chance of running away because as these were coming out of the car by that I was actually going to look for something that could actually...(intervention)

MR NADASEN: We were at the point where you were telling us you had dropped certain persons off at the ground and then you escaped. Tell us how you escaped?

CHAIRPERSON: He drove off, is it?

ADV DE JAGER: It's really essential to have all these details about the escape and what happened previously, we've got a picture now, if we can sort of try and proceed to the real event?

MR NADASEN: Thank you esteemed Commissioner, I appreciate the need to get to the event and I've tried my best to place this into coherence and we're getting to it, I've had to work through a mountain of facts to come to it but I'm coming to it. 

&#9;Mr Ngubane, so you escaped and where did you go, where did you drive to?

MR NGUBANE: At Ndumo at the Mozambique border, nearby the border.

CHAIRPERSON: Just spell that place again?

MR NGUBANE: N-d-u-m-o.

MR NADASEN: When you got to the Mozambique border what did you do?

MR NGUBANE: Sorry can you repeat the question?

MR NADASEN: When you got to the Mozambique border what did you do?

MR NGUBANE: I actually tried to look for a gun to protect myself.

MR NADASEN: Did you go and look for a gun at the border of Mozambique?

MR NGUBANE: Yes not in Mozambique but by the border, nearby the border.

MR NADASEN: Any reason why you drove to the border of Mozambique specifically to look for a gun there?

MR NGUBANE: At Ndumo I have a brother who was actually residing there, I knew that I might get help.

MR NADASEN: What is the name of your brother?

MR NGUBANE: Epsom Ngubane.

MR NADASEN: So did you go to your brother's house then?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: And what happened?

MR NGUBANE: On my arrival at my brother's house I asked him where can I get a gun and I explained everything what has actually happened.

MR NADASEN: And what did your brother say?

MR NGUBANE: He said let us go and search perhaps we might get help somewhere.

MR NADASEN: And what did you do?

MR NGUBANE: Indeed we went and found it from a certain man.

MR NADASEN: Now where did you go to and who is this person you found?

MR NGUBANE: We found Stake Ndabendi, that's where we got it from.

MR NADASEN: Where did Mr Stake Ndabendi live?

MR NGUBANE: Nearby the border in his house.

MR NADASEN: And when you got there to Mr Ndabendi's house what did you tell him?

CHAIRPERSON: Not necessary I think, he went there to get a gun. What did you do after you got a gun?

MR NGUBANE: I also got the ammunition and then I went back home.

MR NADASEN: And when you got back home what happened?

MR NGUBANE: On my way before I even reached home I met Elson Mavundla and Isaac Masangu.

MR NADASEN: And who are these persons?

MR NGUBANE: These are the people that got arrested, about 20 of us who got arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Now let's not talk about it because at that stage you were not arrested with them. We are talking about on the way you met Mavundla and Masangu. What happened then?

MR NGUBANE: They are the ones who are actually escaping because they actually wanted to kill them.

MR NADASEN: And you say they were escaping because someone wanted to kill them. Now what did you do after you met them?

MR NGUBANE: Then they say they also want to revenge these people because these people are finishing them.

MR NADASEN: Now they also wanted revenge and these people are finishing them. Who are these people?

MR NGUBANE: Simon Sikale and them.

MR NADASEN: And after that what did you do?

MR NGUBANE: I indicated then that we should go back because I've already got the gun.

MR NADASEN: And what happened next?

MR NGUBANE: Then we went back home. On our arrival in my house there was no one at home, my house was burned.

MR NADASEN: And what happened then?

MR NGUBANE: We sat there, I slept there because it was already at night because I did not know where my kids were, I didn't know whether they were dead or what.

MR NADASEN: And what happened next?

MR NGUBANE: That is when we left in the morning, we discussed as how are we going to locate these people or search for these people.

MR NADASEN: And by these people who are you referring to?

MR NGUBANE: Simon Sikale, Gale Gumede and Memesi Umkhumalo.

MR NADASEN: And then what happened?

MR NGUBANE: We agreed that we should actually look for them in the evening or at night.

MR NADASEN: Yes and then what happened?

MR NGUBANE: At night we went to Simon's, we didn't find him.

MR NADASEN: You say you went to Mr Simon's house?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: And what happened when you came to his house?

MR NGUBANE: We didn't find him.

MR NADASEN: And then what did you do then?

MR NGUBANE: We proceeded to Gale Gumede's house.

MR NADASEN: And what happened when you came to his house?

MR NGUBANE: We found Gale Gumede however we failed to kill him, he didn't die.

MR NADASEN: Now when you say you failed to kill him did you try to kill him?

MR NGUBANE: Yes we tried by all means but we failed.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you do, did you shoot him or what?

MR NGUBANE: Yes we shot at him, the house wouldn't open, he was inside and the house was filled with blocks so we couldn't actually have access.

MR NADASEN: So you shot at the house?

MR NGUBANE: Yes and on the windows.

MR NADASEN: Yes and then what did you do?

MR NGUBANE: We left the area and then we proceeded to Memesi Umkhumalo's house.

MR NADASEN: And then what happened at Mr Memesi's house?

MR NGUBANE: We actually surrounded the house, knocked at the door and the houses in some of them the kids were sleeping. One boy actually who came out by the name of Bongani Umkhumalo and he ran away and those that I was with they wanted to hit him and then I indicated to them that they shouldn't hit the kid because he didn't do anything, we know the people who have actually committed the crime. We knocked on another house, that's where we found him.

MR NADASEN: And when you're saying him you referring to Mr Memesi?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: And what happened?

MR NGUBANE: We knocked and then it was obvious that he was inside, I kicked the door and the door got opened. I found him with his wife and kids, I can't quite remember, there were about three or four kids with him. I asked the wife to take the kids out.

MR NADASEN: And what did Mrs Memesi do?

MR NGUBANE: He did that and he left the house.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is he?

INTERPRETER: Sorry I beg your pardon, she left the house with the kids, the wife to Memesi.

MR NADASEN: And after she had left the house with the children what happened?

MR NGUBANE: I shot him.

MR NADASEN: Where did you shoot him, in which part of his body?

MR NGUBANE: I was at the window on the left hand as he's pointing, actually from the left hand the body protruded to the right hand.

MR NADASEN: So you're saying you shot him in the left part of his chest and the bullet went right through and exited on the right part, is that correct?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: And after you had shot him what happened?

MR NGUBANE: We then got into the car and returned to Induma and that's where we slept.

MR NADASEN: And did you attack anyone else after that?

MR NGUBANE: Yes there were.

MR NADASEN: And who is it that you attacked?

MR NGUBANE: Later on we returned to the area to look for others that we could attack and that is when - that was the time when we were arrested.

MR NADASEN: Now when you went to look for Mr Sikale, Mr Gumede and Mr Memesi, did you go there to seek revenge because they killed your brother and your cousin?

MR NGUBANE: Yes but it was also a political act because I realised that they had wiped out IFP people.

MR NADASEN: Now do you recall when you applied for amnesty you had to complete a form, an application form for amnesty? Do you recall filling in that form?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Honourable Chairperson, I'd like to refer to page 15 of the bundle of documents. I refer to question 9, paragraph a(i). &#9;

Mr Ngubane, in reply to a particular question you answered as follows:

&#9;"We murdered Mr Memesi Umkhumalo because him and Mr Simon Sikale murdered many people."

Is that correct?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR NADASEN: Later on, Honourable Chairperson, (iv) you also say:

&#9;"We stabbed him to death yet we aimed to kill Simon Sikale who was the ringleader when giving orders to murder all those who were against the ANC."

Is that correct?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR NADASEN: And later, Honourable Chairperson, page 16, question 10(a). Mr Ngubane, you had to state the political objective to be achieved and this is how you answered it:

&#9;"We were trying to put an end to death of innocent people which was caused by Mr Memesi Umkhumalo and Simon Sikale and their organisation."

Is that correct?

MR NGUBANE: That is correct.

MR NADASEN: Now Mr Ngubane, you've spent sometime in prison and you've had time to think about what you've done. Are you sorry about what you've done?

MR NGUBANE: Yes I feel remorse.

MR NADASEN: And what would you want to tell Mr Memesi's family?

MR NGUBANE: I would like to ask for their forgiveness because what I did was bad. It was not good for me to kill Mr Memesi, I request them to forgive me. Even if I am granted amnesty I am prepared to go and meet them in person and tell them how sorry I am.

MR NADASEN: Honourable Chairperson, I have tried to place the applicant's version in a coherent form and there are many issues which he referred to which in my view though important are really not material to this application and it's quite apparent that I jumped sequentially to present as holistic a picture of his version and I seek your guidance now if there are any aspects you would want me to clear.

CHAIRPERSON: From my point of view just to complete the picture, did he report the death of his brother and cousin to the police?

MR NADASEN: Mr Ngubane, your brother and your cousin were killed, did you report that death to the police?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MR NADASEN: Which police station did you go to?

MR NGUBANE: I went to the Juzini investigators.

MR NADASEN: And do you know whether anything happened, any court case take place, was anybody brought to trial?

MR NGUBANE: No one was arrested for the death of my brother.

MR NADASEN: And your cousin?

MR NGUBANE: No one was arrested for that either.

CHAIRPERSON: What has happened to Mr Sikale?

MR NGUBANE: What I know is that he stays somewhere in Pietermaritzburg.

CHAIRPERSON: At his trial Mr Nadasen, did he give evidence?

We don't have a copy of the ...(intervention)

MR NADASEN: Unfortunately I don't have any information.

MS PATEL: No unfortunately the tapes for the trial couldn't be located for we have no transcripts from the trial, Honourable Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NADASEN

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions to put to the applicant?

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, at this stage I would humbly request your indulgence for a short adjournment. Mr Sikale has arrived whilst after we had started the proceedings the wife of the deceased is here as well, as well as the chief from the area. I need an opportunity to speak to them before I'm in a position to cross-examine.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll take the adjournment at this stage as well. You will call us as soon as you're ready?

MS PATEL: I will, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

MR NADASEN: Before you do so Honourable Chairperson might I at this point in time make an application? A situation has arisen and in the best interests of the applicant and these proceedings I apply for leave to withdraw as the representative for the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: You have explained the position to your client?

MR NADASEN: I have had a discussion with him.

CHAIRPERSON: He understands?

MR NADASEN: He does understand and I've indicated to him options he could explore but as far as I'm concerned, I'm going to beg leave to withdraw which I duly do now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, stand please? Your counsel is asking leave to withdraw and he has explained to you the reasons why. He hasn't told me the reason why he wants to withdraw and we don't want to hear the reason because that is between you and him, do you understand?

MR NGUBANE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: We are not here to decide whether you are guilty or not guilty, we are here to decide not the question of guilt, we're here to decide the question of amnesty. Do you understand that?

MR NGUBANE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: And we are going to assist you as best as we can to say whatever else you wish to say in support of your case, do you understand?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And I'm going to afford you an opportunity. You have given us a long and full story about what has happened and what led to what you did and I will afford you an opportunity to say anything new which you haven't yet said which you think is important. Do you understand?

MR NGUBANE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you very much, you may be seated.

Mr Nadasen, the Committee is indebted to you for the assistance you've rendered in this matter so far and it is in a measure of reluctance that I concede your request for leave to withdraw.

MR NADASEN: I'm indebted to the Committee. Might I be excused Honourable Chairperson? Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NADASEN

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Now I want you, the applicant, hello? Just draw the attention of the applicant, I'm talking to him? I want you to listen carefully to the questions that are going to be asked of you by Ms Patel and you answer them as best as you can and if you want any assistance we will assist you if you have any difficulties, do you understand?

MR NGUBANE: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Ms Patel?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Mr Ngubane, you stated in your application that your story, your version that you've given us today, the chief will be able to verify us for that, that you'll be able to prove to us what you are saying, not so?

CHAIRPERSON: Well some of it, isn't it?

MS PATEL: I beg your pardon?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike?

CHAIRPERSON: The chief will only be able to verify some of what he has told us. He's told us a great deal?

MS PATEL: Yes Honourable Chairperson, he doesn't qualify it when he states it on page 17 of the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MS PATEL: Mr Ngubane, that's right isn't it? The chief will be able to verify parts of what you have said to us, not so?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: And this is Chief Jundu Gumede that you refer to?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay, now Mr Gumede is here today and he has heard what you have said to us. He confirms that you came to him and said that Sikale had told you to come to a meeting. He however denies that you said to him that he asked you to bring along R100 for the membership fee?

MR NGUBANE: I hear what you say.

MS PATEL: So the chief says he bears no knowledge about you being threatened to join the ANC?

MR NGUBANE: He telling the truth. He is now - the chief, Inkosi did pass away now he is succeeding.

CHAIRPERSON: What does that answer mean? I don't know whether there is any logic in the answer? The chief has passed away?

MR NGUBANE: When I spoke to the Inkosi at that time the person present today was not the Inkosi. The Inkosi that I spoke to has since passed away, he was the assistant. 

CHAIRPERSON: What was the name of the chief to whom you had spoken?

MR NGUBANE: Ben Magenge Jobe.

MS PATEL: That is correct, he was the chief at the time but the person who you spoke to during that time, I asked you clearly you had spoke - which chief was it and you agreed that it was Jundu Gumede. Are you saying now that you did not speak to Jundu Gumede?

MR NGUBANE: I did speak to Jundu but at that time he was an Induna. I spoke to him after he had been to the Inkosi.

MS PATEL: Alright. I will confirm that he was indeed the Induna at that stage and he is presently the chief, Honourable Chairperson, just for clarity's sake.

CHAIRPERSON: If it is material at all.

MS PATEL: The Induna is now the chief. He says that the meeting that was referred to at that time was a meeting called by the community generally and not by the ANC? What is your comment?

MR NGUBANE: I oppose that, it is not true.

MS PATEL: He says further that the meeting related to the problem in the area on stock theft, that it had nothing to do with the IFP or the ANC or about politics?

MR NGUBANE: I do not remember that, I would not oppose what you're saying but I do not remember that.

MS PATEL: Are you saying then it's possible then that the meeting that you referred to as being an ANC meeting was in fact a meeting by the community?

ADV DE JAGER: Was there only one meeting during the three, four years or were there several meetings? Are we talking about the same meeting?

MS PATEL: The meeting we are referring to Honourable Commissioner is the meeting that the applicant had referred to in his evidence in chief that Sikale had asked him to attend. The witness, the Induna who is present - I beg your pardon - the Chief Gumede who is now present also received a report regarding that meeting. In fact he confirms that he was the person who had spoken to the applicant, that the report was in fact made to him. The system at the time was you could either speak to the Chief or to the Induna and the report was in fact made to the Induna, Mr Gumede and so it is the same meeting that we are referring to.

&#9;Mr Ngubane, to get back to the question, are you saying that it's possible that the meeting that Mr Sikale had called you to initially was a meeting that was called by the community and not by the ANC?

MR NGUBANE: It was not a community meeting because when I went to speak to the Inkosi he said he was not aware of it.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us, was there an IFP office in the area during the time?

MR NGUBANE: No there is no office in the area.

MS PATEL: And an ANC office?

MR NGUBANE: No.

MS PATEL: Do you know who was in charge of the ANC group at the time in your area?

CHAIRPERSON: By in charge do you mean the persons who are most active or what?

MS PATEL: That is correct, Honourable Chairperson.

MR NGUBANE: Please repeat the question?

CHAIRPERSON: Who to your knowledge was the most senior ANC member in your area at the time?

MR NGUBANE: Simon Sikale.

MS PATEL: And to your knowledge had Mr Sikale been residing in the area at the time?

MR NGUBANE: Yes he is the resident but he worked at Pietermaritzburg where he stayed.

MS PATEL: And to your knowledge how often would he come home?

MR NGUBANE: Because he had a car I would not really know but he was normally home at the end of each month.

MS PATEL: So it's correct then that he would only spend - he would come home at the end of the month only during that period that you say he was the most active person in the ANC in your area?

MR NGUBANE: With regards to weekends I would not know whether he was there because I used to work but I would see him at the end of the month.

MS PATEL: In fact Mr Sikale states that he wasn't an ANC member or supporter?

MR NGUBANE: That is not true, he can just say that in order to try and not help my case.

MS PATEL: These problems between the ANC and the IFP that you refer to in the area, are they limited to a Mr Sikale and Mr - I'm sorry Honourable Chairperson, the name of the deceased, Mr Umkhumalo, are they limited to the activities that you have told us about here today?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: They can't be limited to them because there must be many others in that area but these are the two people who played a prominent part as far as he's concerned.

MS PATEL: The question is directed as to the level of political strife in the area. Was it limited to those incidents that he is referring to or were there many other incidents that he can tell us about?

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't understand that to be the question. You can put that question.

MS PATEL: Mr Ngubane, the political problems between the IFP and the ANC in your area, were they limited to the incidents that you have told us about or were they more than that?

MR NGUBANE: Although I do not remember that precisely but the most important ones were those that I've already mentioned.

CHAIRPERSON: Apart from the killing of your brother and your cousin were there other troubles between ANC and Inkatha in your area? You may not have been involved in them but were there other troubles between the ANC and Inkatha in your area?

MR NGUBANE: No.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there houses burned in your area?

MR NGUBANE: Yes there were.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there any other people killed?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there also members of the ANC killed apart from Mr Umkhumalo?

MR NGUBANE: Yes there is one person who died in the area.

ADV DE JAGER: Were there any other IFP people killed in the area?

MR NGUBANE: Yes there were.

ADV DE JAGER: Did people flee the area, go and stay elsewhere?

MR NGUBANE: Yes some did.

ADV DE JAGER: Were those people fleeing the area, going away, were they IFP members or ANC members or were they from both parties?

MR NGUBANE: They were IFP people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes do carry on?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. Mr Ngubane, do you have any personal problems or problems with Chief Jundu Gumede?

MR NGUBANE: No.

MS PATEL: So he would have no reason to come and lie to us, not so, because he has nothing personal against you either?

MR NGUBANE: Yes but as I already mentioned before when I went to the Inkosi that was a different person, he was not an Inkosi at that time.

MS PATEL: Alright, Chief Gumede says that there's no political problems in that area, there wasn't during that time and there isn't now?

CHAIRPERSON: Now of course years have gone by since then but you should confine yourself to then, at that time, that there was no political conflict. Is that what he means, no political conflict between the ANC and the IFP?

MS PATEL: Apparently it's a very calm area and has been for a long time Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now listen carefully. If somebody comes and says that during the time that you have been talking about there has been no conflict between the ANC and the IFP in your area, do you agree with that or do you disagree with that?

MR NGUBANE: I would disagree with that.

MS PATEL: Well both Chief Gumede and Simon Sikale will come and testify to that. Mr Sikale has stated that he - to start with, the evidence that you've given against Mr Sikale that he was a member of the ANC, that he threatened you to join the organisation, that he requested money from you, membership fees, that he asked you to toyi-toyi, that he was involved in the murder of your brother and your cousin and amongst others, generally he denies in total your testimony against him?

MR NGUBANE: What he's saying is not true and I am not surprised that he's saying so because we were at opposing ends, but what he's saying is not true.

MS PATEL: He also says the bulk of his time was spent out of the area and that he was never active in politics even as an IFP person he was never active?

MR NGUBANE: I disagree with all that he's saying. He is the person with whom we had problems. He knows very well that he played a huge role so what he's saying is not true.

MS PATEL: He also says that Umkhumalo was his neighbour, Mr Umkhumalo the deceased, who was his neighbour, wasn't politically active to his knowledge?

MR NGUBANE: He is not telling the truth. I would like to ask a question?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NGUBANE: Did Mr Umkhumalo not die?

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) evidence that he did die.

MR NGUBANE: Then my question will be what would have caused the death of Mr Umkhumalo, why did people die, what was the cause?

CHAIRPERSON: Alright I will note that question but the lawyer will not have to answer that question as to why he died. Your witness will give evidence if they are going to be called on?

MS PATEL: Yes they will certainly, Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Sikale says that you and your brother who was killed and your cousin who was killed amongst the three of you together with others had in fact formed a gang and was responsible for stealing cattle in the area?

CHAIRPERSON: That is not true, I don't think he can name any cattle that I have stolen.

MS PATEL: Mr Sikale says further that he was at home on the weekend when your brother and your cousin were killed and that they were in fact killed by the community and that he was present when it happened?

MR NGUBANE: I would like to oppose everything that he is saying. There is not much that I can say about him because he did not even testify in court, they could not contact him, he had been in hiding. It is the first time that I see him today at that time.

MS PATEL: I'm sure Mr Sikale will deny that he was in hiding, in fact he was working in Greytown, has been working in Greytown for 19 years so both for the period before this incident and after the incident he returned back to work? He also denies that he was with Mr Umkhumalo when your brother and your cousin were killed.

ADV DE JAGER: Does he deny it or was he with them?

MS PATEL: He's denying that he was with Mr Umkhumalo when the brother and the cousin were killed.

CHAIRPERSON: He may deny he was with Mr Umkhumalo, is he going to deny that Mr Umkhumalo wasn't there because Sikale says he was there when the brother was killed. Is he going to say that Umkhumalo was not there at all?

MS PATEL: He says there was a crowd of people there, he doesn't recall whether Mr Umkhumalo was there or not, he wasn't personally with.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) Umkhumalo was present?

MS PATEL: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes in other words, listen carefully, at the time your brother and cousin were killed, Mr Sikale will say that he was not together with Mr Umkhumalo, Mr Umkhumalo may have been there but they were not together, do you understand?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you deny that or you admit that?

MR NGUBANE: That is not true, they were together.

MS PATEL: Sorry, just to refresh my memory. Mr Ngubane did you say that your brother was shot by Mr Sikale?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay. Mr Sikale of course denies that?

MR NGUBANE: I did even mention before that I do not expect him to admit because he did not even appear in court to give any evidence but all that he's saying is not true.

MS PATEL: Mr Sikale does however state that he was arrested at some stage as being part of, as being one of the people who was present on the scene when your brother and your cousin was killed but he was found not guilty.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) charged for killing the brother and the cousin?

MS PATEL: Those are my instructions Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought that the applicant says that nobody was charged, there was no case?

MS PATEL: That is why I am putting it to him.

CHAIRPERSON: So tell me, as a result of the killing of your brother and your cousin, was there in fact a case and people charged for the murder?

MR NGUBANE: No, if there was such a trial we would have been informed and we could have been witnesses.

MS PATEL: Okay, thank you Honourable Chairperson. You've stated in your application that the person you went to look for Mr Sikale and not Mr Umkhumalo but that you found Mr Umkhumalo there and that is why you killed him?

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't think he said they didn't look for Umkhumalo, they went to look for Sikale, did not find him and then found Umkhumalo?

MS PATEL: Sorry Honourable Chairperson, I've got my names mixed up again.

&#9;You've stated that Mr Sikale had murdered many people, can you give us the names of this people?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just put it this way, did you see him do it? Listen carefully, did you say that Sikale had killed many people?

MR NGUBANE: ...(inaudible)

CHAIRPERSON: What is the answer?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see him do that or is that something that you heard?

MR NGUBANE: I heard some of it.

MS PATEL: You also stated that Mr Umkhumalo had killed many people?

MR NGUBANE: Yes they colluded together.

MS PATEL: Okay, did you see him kill anyone besides your brother and your cousin?

MR NGUBANE: No, I did not see him killing any other person.

ADV DE JAGER: Is it conceded that he killed the brother and the cousin?

MS PATEL: No it is not Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;I've lost my train of thought now, sorry.

CHAIRPERSON: We were questioning him whether he had seen Umkhumalo kill many others and he said no, these are something that he'd heard.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I indebted to you. Mr Sikale will deny that he has killed anybody.

CHAIRPERSON: Put that to him in a different way, he says that whatever Sikale says he disagrees with.

MS PATEL: Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;Why did you go and look for Mr Sikale only and not for Mr Umkhumalo on that day?

CHAIRPERSON: He said "we didn't go round looking for Umkhumalo", they looked for Sikale, did not find him and found Umkhumalo. I don't think they'd made up their mind that they were not going to look for Umkhumalo, they looked for Sikale because in his mind Sikale was the man. They didn't find him then went to Umkhumalo's house and found him.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;You stated in your application that:

&#9;"We stabbed him to death"

that is Mr Umkhumalo, yet in your evidence today you've stated that you shot him only. Did you stab him as well?

MR NGUBANE: Mr Umkhumalo was shot and then the other people that I was with stabbed him.

MS PATEL: Okay, have you given us the names of the other people that you were with?

MR NGUBANE: No, I have not.

MS PATEL: Now could you please give it to us?

MR NGUBANE: I may not be able to remember all of them.

MS PATEL: Just what you can remember?

MR NGUBANE: There was Bongani Ngubane, Elson Mavundla, Isaac Masango, Chepan Khumalo, Donald Mtembu, the sixth person was Kwamboshi.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you spell that name for me?

MR NGUBANE: K-w-a-m-b-o-s-h-i.

CHAIRPERSON: Kwamboshi?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR NGUBANE: I have forgotten the others because when we were charged there were 20 of us.

MS PATEL: And were they all convicted?

MR NGUBANE: No, only two people were convicted.

MS PATEL: And who were these two?

MR NGUBANE: Bongani Ngubane and Elson Mavundla.

CHAIRPERSON: And yourself?

MS PATEL: He is Bongani, Honourable Chairperson, so it's just one other person.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MS PATEL: Elson Mavundla. Was there anybody else who was convicted, no?

MR NGUBANE: We were the only two people who were convicted.

MS PATEL: Okay. Do you have any idea why Elson Mavundla hasn't applied for amnesty?

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think you should bother about that at this stage.

MS PATEL: Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;When you went to the house of Mr Umkhumalo and after he was killed or after you shot him, you said some of your other colleagues had stabbed him, is that correct?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: Okay and after he was killed, what did you do, did you leave the house immediately?

CHAIRPERSON: Are these essential matters really?

MS PATEL: My instructions are Honourable Chairperson that certain items were removed from the house as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Well put it directly because it is not a file, you're cross-examining him, you do not have to be afraid of leading evidence? Ask him whether he removed articles from the house or whether his colleagues stole anything from the house.

MS PATEL: Mr Ngubane, you've heard that was - did you remove any other items from the house after killing Mr Umkhumalo?

MR NGUBANE: I did not take anything.

MS PATEL: And your colleagues who were with you, did they take anything?

MR NGUBANE: Well I did not see.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Elson Mavundla take anything?

MR NGUBANE: No.

MS PATEL: And Isaac Masango?

INTERPRETER: Sorry Isaac who?

MS PATEL: Masango.

MR NGUBANE: We were with him but he did not take anything, we only killed the late Umkhumalo.

MS PATEL: So as far as you can tell nobody took anything from the house?

CHAIRPERSON: He said that already.

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: And you were together with the rest of the people at the time of the killing and immediately after?

CHAIRPERSON: You went there together to the house of the deceased and you left together, is that it?

MR NGUBANE: Yes that is the truth.

MS PATEL: Well I put it to you Sir that evidence will be led that in fact goods were taken from the house after Mr Umkhumalo was killed?

ADV DE JAGER: Were they charged with robbery or theft?

MS PATEL: We haven't been able to retrieve any of the documents, I'm not in a position to say exactly what he was charged for, who he was charged with, what the judgement of the court was, there's no information.

ADV DE JAGER: The police docket?

MS PATEL: The docket has a statement by the wife of the deceased, the father of the deceased and two of the people or one of the persons who has been mentioned by the applicant today but who says wasn't convicted. I have no information to verify that and there's also a statement by another person who was with the applicant at the time that he hasn't mentioned, that's the only information in the docket unfortunately.

CHAIRPERSON: Well now have you any information as to what goods were stolen?

MS PATEL: I have Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Put that to him, say that you have information, tell him what information you have about what was stolen from the house at that time.

MS PATEL: Well I must say that I have been able to consult very briefly and with the wife of the deceased and I got as far as her telling me that certain bedding and clothing was taken.

CHAIRPERSON: Well as you have a denial that nothing was stolen a blank denial that nothing was stolen from the house, you might just give him an opportunity that it is said that some bedding and clothing was stolen from the house among other things. Do you know anything about that?

MR NGUBANE: I have no idea and even in court nothing was actually indicated or was discussed with regards to the stealing of goods. 

CHAIRPERSON: You were not charged in the court for stealing goods, you were merely charged with murder?

MR NGUBANE: Yes that's it.

MS PATEL: Do you know a certain Bongani Indiwe Tembe?

MR NGUBANE: Will you please repeat the name?

MS PATEL: Bongani Indiwe Tembe.

CHAIRPERSON: You talk to softly, I want to hear the name. Bongani what?

MS PATEL: Indiwe Tembe.

MR NGUBANE: I can't quite remember, we were about 20. Might be one of the people who were with, maybe if you ask the others they might know him but I personally can't quite remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it going to be suggested that he was one of the people who was with him?

MS PATEL: Yes that is so Honourable Chairperson.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes do carry on.

MS PATEL: Okay. He made a statement to the police after the incident in which he stated that he was with you, he's mentioned the name of Mavundla, Masanga, Sam and Hlahlamba.

CHAIRPERSON: Just stop there.

INTERPRETER: Sorry, will you repeat the names? It's Mavundla and then?

CHAIRPERSON: Just give us the names?

MS PATEL: Alright. Masanga, Sam and Hlahlamba, spelt H-l-a-h-a-m-b-a, either a or e, I'm not sure. He says ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Did this person give evidence?

MS PATEL: I can't tell, all I have is the statement in the docket.

CHAIRPERSON: Did a man called Bongani Indiwe Tembe give evidence in your trial?

MR NGUBANE: No.

MS PATEL: Okay. He says that he was with you on the evening that Mr Umkhumalo was killed. He states amongst other things that he confirms your version that you went to two or three different places that evening. He also says that certain goods were in fact taken and that goods were taken from the other place that you had gone to that evening as well?

CHAIRPERSON: Let's just pause there, you have told me, the Committee, that you went first to the house of Sikale?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't there and then you went to Mr Umkhumalo's house? Did you go to anybody else?

MR NGUBANE: And then we found Umkhumalo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, did you go to anybody else's house before you got to Umkhumalo's house?

ADV DE JAGER: Yes I think his evidence was he went to Simon's house and then to Gumede's house and then to Umkhumalo's house.

CHAIRPERSON: And did anybody, did you take anything from those other houses?

MR NGUBANE: Nothing at all.

CHAIRPERSON: To your knowledge could anybody who was with you in your group, could they have taken anything from these houses? 

MR NGUBANE: At Simon Sikale we didn't find him, we didn't take anything. We proceeded even at Umkhumalo as they were in plenty, I don't remember and I didn't see anyone although we were in ...(indistinct) but I cannot tell because I didn't see anyone taking anything.

CHAIRPERSON: I have evidence, I have information before me that the applicant was not charged with theft and is not applying for amnesty for having committed theft, he's applying for amnesty for murder, you understand? So if there was any theft or anything stolen by any of his colleagues it's just a side issue and not material to the application for amnesty, isn't that so?

MS PATEL: With respect Honourable Chairperson, it goes to his motive and his intention as to ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: The intention was to go and kill.

MS PATEL: If the intention was only to go and kill then what was the purpose in stealing if he didn't in fact act out of pure non-political criminal motivation and not just a political motivation as he would like us believe?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but then he says that he didn't steal, he's already said that, he didn't take anything?

MS PATEL: With respect Honourable Chairperson, I am putting to him what information I have at my disposal regarding other people who were with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you see if you're going to put to him that this man whose statement you have says that he stole things from the house then you put it to him. He says he has not recollection of others having stolen but as far as he's concerned he hasn't stolen anything. Now are you putting it to him that he's the one that stole things from these houses?

MS PATEL: No Honourable Chairperson, I'm saying that he was part of a group of people.

CHAIRPERSON: Some of whom, it is said, some of whom may have stolen. The names of the people that stole were not given?

MS PATEL: But the applicant is going further, he's not conceding Honourable Chairperson that others might have stolen, he is saying that he was with them and nobody stole?

CHAIRPERSON: At his knowledge.

ADV DE JAGER: Ms Patel, could I ask you this it seems to be common cause that at least a group of twenty people went to attack, twenty were charged and at least twenty were charged.

MS PATEL: With respect it is not, that is not common cause Honourable Commissioner, my instructions from the wife of the deceased is that there were a lot less and I'm not in a position to concede that in fact twenty people were charged, I don't have that information so it is not common cause with respect.

CHAIRPERSON: So a large number of people an indefinite number of people were charged. Two of them were convicted of murder and he says that nobody was charged with theft. 

MS PATEL: That is his word Honourable Chairperson, with respect I'm entitled to test that.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but you're not in a position to say that he was charged with theft.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

ADV DE JAGER: Could I put my problem to you? If in fact we've got a large group attacking a house with the intention of stealing, they would have been in a position after murdering this man to rob this, everything in this house, if they wanted to steal. Not only a few items, a few items of bedding and clothing. One would expect if they went there with the purpose of stealing and getting property they would have taken whatever they could take and that's why on the probabilities I want to put it to you they went with the intention of murdering and if somebody has taken a blanket or a few pieces of clothing, he says he doesn't know about it but that could have happened but I don't think that would really alter the position?

CHAIRPERSON: It certainly wouldn't effect the question whether he's entitled to amnesty or not for murder.

MS PATEL: It does however effect the question as to whether this applicant in fact acted in his capacity as a member of the IFP at the time and because of him, his family being attacked as a result of them being IFP members or whether - Honourable Chair if I may complete - or whether in fact they were a group of criminals who went round stealing cattle from the community and then after the community had taken steps against members of his family, he had been with his group of friends gone around and done what he had done on the night in question and he would now have us believe that that was politically motivated. So the question of the theft Honourable Chairperson is directly relevant to the modus operandi of this applicant?

CHAIRPERSON: I understand, now put your questions succinctly that what you are contending is that they didn't go, he and his colleagues did not go as aggrieved IFP members to attack ANC people, but they were in fact a band of criminals bent on stealing and theft and as a result of being engaged in that activity they caused the death of Umkhumalo. Isn't that what you're trying to say?

MS PATEL: That is correct, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So listen carefully, if it is said that you and your colleagues did not go there as aggrieved IFP members bent on attacking ANC that in fact you and your friends were robbers, you'd been stealing things from people and when those people from whom you stole attacked you, your brothers and your cousin for stealing that that is why you went there to take revenge for that. In other words it had nothing to do with the conflict between Inkatha and ANC. Now I might not have put it very clearly but if you understand what I've said, I'd like an answer.

MR NGUBANE: Yes that is a mistake because all the people that have died, it's not only these two, there are a lot of people who have been killed, I did explain that. I cannot recall that we can actually attack for stealing. If we wanted to steal we could have just go there and steal, not necessarily attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Part of the answer, the other part of the answer it is said that you did not go there as aggrieved members of the IFP attacking ANC people. Did you go there as aggrieved members of the IFP to attack ANC people?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

MS PATEL: If I may just for the sake of completeness put to you that Mr Temba in his statement said that you told him that you wanted him to accompany you to fetch your property from the Jobe area and that is how he ...(intervention)

INTERPRETER: Sorry, I missed the area?

MS PATEL: Jobe, sorry. 

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask?

MR NGUBANE: I never asked anyone to accompany me to collect my belongings. We only went to attack the ANC people, I don't recall asking them to accompany me to collect or to fetch something.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Mr Temba here?

MS PATEL: No Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Because he says he can't recall whether there was anybody by that name, that's the difficulty. If Temba were here I would have asked him to stand up in court and ask him whether he recognises the man that you are talking about.

You see your question is put to him about what Temba is going to say and so on, Can't be backed up by evidence and therefore all this is really not worth very much. You can't put to a witness, a witness in a statement said this so and so, if that witness is not there to substantiate what he said in that statement. Do you understand? It is if you're going to call that witness then his admission or denial would be worth evidence. 

MS PATEL: With respect Honourable Chairperson, I appreciate that. I'm also under an obligation if I have information at my disposal to at least give the applicant an opportunity to respond to it. If often happens where information out of just a statement that is made available to us that is put to the applicant or to the witnesses, refreshes their memory or something comes out of that that may in fact be relevant or material to the hearing. The weight that is to be attached to what I've put to the applicant is a question of argument, Honourable Chairperson, but with respect I believe that I'm entitled to put this information?

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

&#9;Just to take you back to the information that you've handed to the TRC, you stated in your letter that "In 1992 Mr Sikale who was working in Pietermartizburg had us joining his organisation and we were a big number." Who is the "us" that you refer to? You've only spoken of yourself ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Where are you referring to on the record?

MS PATEL: Sorry, page 21, it's the second paragraph, just below "reason for murder" Honourable Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Who is the us that you refer to?

MR NGUBANE: It was myself and the others who were present in the meeting.

MS PATEL: Okay, were any of these members present with you when you went to attack Mr Umkhumalo that evening?

MR NGUBANE: Some of them were there, most of them were not there.

MS PATEL: Okay, out of the names that you've given us, which of those can you refer us to?

INTERPRETER: Sorry, can he?

MS PATEL: You've given us a list of names of people who were with you that evening when you launched the attack, which of these people were present at that initial meeting that you say was an ANC meeting?

MR NGUBANE: Elson Mavundla, Qambo Shikene, because there were a lot of people I can't quite remember the others.

MS PATEL: Okay and the evening when - you haven't given us any information as to this but the evening when it was decided to go and look for Mr Sikale was it done at a meeting with all the people who were with you or how did it come about?

MR NGUBANE: You mean when we took that decision to attack Mr Sikale, there was 20 of us and the other ...(indistinct) was?

CHAIRPERSON: The question I think is not that, the question is that was there a meeting at which it was decided that you were going to attack Mr Sikale. Was it a meeting?

MR NGUBANE: There were 20 men who decided to take this decision.

CHAIRPERSON: It might not have been a formal meeting, a structured meeting.

MS PATEL: That is accepted Honourable Chairperson and ...(intervention)

MR NGUBANE: As it is us the victims who actually had that meeting.

MS PATEL: Okay. Sorry Honourable Chairperson, if you'd grant me a moment? I'm just double checking, I may be done, yes Honourable Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL

CHAIRPERSON: Listen carefully to me. You've been asked a number of questions by the lawyer, you have given answers, now is there anything you would like to say to add to what you have already said? I don't want you to repeat what you have said but if there is something additional and new which you haven't already spoken about, if you'd like to say that would you please say so? If you have, if you don't have then that's good.

MR NGUBANE: I don't accept what I'm actually pleading for.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you but if it occurs to you at any stage that there is something that you would like to say then you must tell me, do you understand?

MR NGUBANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll take the adjournment now and we'll resume at quarter to 2. Will you give me some i