

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARINGS

DATE:&#9;&#9;&#9;2 OCTOBER 1997

HELD AT:&#9;&#9;&#9;PORT ELIZABETH

NAME:&#9;&#9;&#9;NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN

CASE NO:&#9;&#9;&#9;4358/96

DAY 3

________________________________________________________

CHAIRPERSON: Today is October the 2nd, we are continuing with 

the same set of applications. Mr Lamey?

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, my learned friend, Mr Cornelius will 

proceed with the evidence of Mr Vermeulen.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN: (Duly sworn, states).

EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr 

Chairperson. Mr Vermeulen, you have completed an application in 

terms of Act 34/1995 and it was handed on the 13th of December 

and that is the application mentioned on page 160, 166 of the 

application?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: As appears from page 169 you gave your full co-

operation to the Investigation Committee of the Truth and 

Reconciliation Commission, the investigating team of the Attorney-

General's office and you also agreed to testify against your former 

colleagues in the Motherwell Supreme Court trial. Is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And as a result of your evidence inter alia a 

conviction followed.

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you received an indemnity in terms of 

Section 204 of the Criminal Procedure Act?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Was an opportunity given to you to make further 

representations to the honourable presiding Judge to be able to 

qualify for a Section 204 indemnity?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And you haven't yet received judgment on that?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You have read or attached the documents and 

records of the Supreme Court trial?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: The Chairperson pointed out that we should get 

to the matter in hand very quickly. You were in the service of 

Section C(1) of the South African Police special unit there?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And you served there from 1985 to 1992? Is that 

correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that in December of 1989 

you were summoned to the offices of Mr Eugene de Kock, who was 

the commanding officer of the C Unit, correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And yourself, Lionel Snyman, Deon Nieuwoudt 

and Martiens Ras were present?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What instructions or orders did you receive 

there?

MR VERMEULEN: The order which we received was to travel to 

Port Elizabeth, to carry out a task.

MR CORNELIUS: What was this task?

MR VERMEULEN: The task was to in respect of members who 

had defected and given information to the ANC/SACP, to eliminate 

such members.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard this order as a justified one?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard it as being in the national 

interest?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that you left there with two 

Vlakplaas vehicles and you drove to Port Elizabeth. You and Lionel 

Snyman in the one car and Deon Nieuwoudt and Martiens Ras as 

well.

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened when you arrived in Port 

Elizabeth? Did you go to a so-called safe house and you stayed 

there overnight. Is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: The next morning you and Deon Nieuwoudt and 

the rest of your comrades travelled to a remote area outside of Port 

Elizabeth. Is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Would you be able to identify that area again?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Why not?

MR VERMEULEN: Because I am not familiar with Port Elizabeth 

and it would be difficult for me to point that area out again.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, and it has also appeared from evidence 

before the Commission that you were in fact misled in that all kinds 

of circuitous routes were taken with you to mislead you.

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And that is also the reason why you gave weak 

testimony in the court, you were in fact misled.

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: When you arrived in the area, as appears from 

previous applications, there was a white Jetta car which had been 

prepared.

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What had been done to this car?

MR VERMEULEN: Explosives had been placed in the boot and 

also in the passenger cabin.

MR CORNELIUS: What type of explosives?

MR VERMEULEN: Use was made of commercial explosive and 

also military type of explosive.

MR CORNELIUS: And the detonator mechanism, what was that?

MR VERMEULEN: The detonator was a radio-controlled 

detonator.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you assist in the placing of the explosives?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Were you present, should you be needed?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Who actually placed the explosives in the car?

MR VERMEULEN: It was Mr Waal du Toit and Mr Kobus Kock.

MR CORNELIUS: After the vehicle had been prepared, what 

happened then?

MR VERMEULEN: We then moved back to Port Elizabeth.

MR CORNELIUS: That evening, along with Snyman and Ras you 

returned to the so-called Motherwell crossing, is that correct?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: After that, where did you go?

MR VERMEULEN: From the crossing, Motherwell crossing, we 

went to the place where the Vlakplaas vehicle had been secreted and 

I stayed behind there.

MR CORNELIUS: Why did you stand behind?

MR VERMEULEN: I stayed behind to look after the vehicles.

MR CORNELIUS: How far was this point from the Motherwell 

crossing where the bomb actually exploded?

MR VERMEULEN: About two to three kilometres.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you tell the Committee what happened later?

MR VERMEULEN: I waited at the vehicles and about 45 minutes 

later Mr Ras and Mr Snyman arrived there, and told me that the 

operation had been successful. We then got back into our vehicles 

and drove to Pretoria.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you hear the sound of an explosion or see a 

flash?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Why not?

MR VERMEULEN: Was too far away from that area.

MR CORNELIUS: When you returned to Pretoria, did you report to 

Mr De Kock, Lieut De Kock?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: What would have happened, Mr Vermeulen if 

you had not carried out Eugene de Kock's orders?

MR VERMEULEN: If I hadn't carried out the orders, there is a 

good chance that I would have lost my job and that perhaps I could 

have been eliminated.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you fear that?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: As the honourable Judge said you found yourself 

in a Catch 22 situation?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Your loyalty would have been seriously 

questioned if you didn't carry out the orders?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And since you possessed extremely sensitive 

information you would have posed a serious threat?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You had been involved in many operations 

before the Motherwell operation of '89?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you also operate on the need to know 

strategy?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: You were not aware of the fact that there was a 

ZN detonator, Soviet-origin detonator left on the scene?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: And at that stage you were not aware of the fact 

that you were deliberately misled by other colleagues, so that you 

couldn't make this identification?

MR VERMEULEN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Vermeulen, did you believe that you were 

acting in the national interest?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: These acts which you committed, they are 

obviously illegal acts, what was your political objective?

MR VERMEULEN: My political objective was that the members 

who had given information to the ANC/SACP, they at that stage, 

they were my enemy.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard these members as supporters of 

the ANC?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Or associates of the ANC?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times act within the normal course 

and scope of your duties?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you feel that your execution of your duties 

had the approval of your superiors?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that any order which you carried 

out, was in direct compliance with the authority structure in the 

security police?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you act in a bona fide manner?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you at all times believe that your conduct 

was promoting the objectives of your employer?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And that it enjoyed the approval of your 

employer?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Even though these actions were illegal?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you benefit personally from this Motherwell 

incident?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you know the victims?

MR VERMEULEN: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you entertain any personal malice against 

these victims?

MR VERMEULEN: No, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You are applying for amnesty, on page 179 of 

the application for all common law crimes and offences which may 

arise from the Motherwell incident, as well as conspiracy to commit 

murder and being an accomplice to murder and any other civil 

damages which may arise from this.

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS 

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: &#9;Thank you, Mr 

Chairperson, Hugo on behalf of Mr De Kock. Mr Vermeulen, can 

you recall whether Mr Nieuwoudt was present at Vlakplaas when Mr 

De Kock gave you the order?

 

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR HUGO: Can you tell us what the precise purport was of the 

motive explained to you by Mr De Kock, the motive for the 

operation?

MR VERMEULEN: That there were members in the PE security 

branch who had been causing problems and that an operation had to 

be carried out in Port Elizabeth.

MR HUGO: Did Mr De Kock at any stage indicate an Askari or 

Askaris?

MR VERMEULEN: As far as I can recall there were three people 

and an askari.

MR HUGO: Yes, but the question is; did Mr De Kock use the word 

Askari or Askaris when he told you about the problems these people 

were causing?

MR VERMEULEN: I can't answer that because I can't remember it 

well. As far as I can recall, I am sure that the word Askari was 

used.

MR HUGO: And are you saying that Mr De Kock told you that 

these people were in the process of going over to the ANC or had 

already done so?

MR VERMEULEN: Yes.

MR HUGO: I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO

MR BOOYSENS: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS

MR JANSEN: No questions, Mr Chairman, on behalf of Snyman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kemp?

MR KEMP: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP

MR JANSEN VAN RENSBURG: Mr Chairman, maybe I should just 

come on record to say on behalf of applicant Ras there is also no 

questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN VAN RENSBURG

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I apologise, I overlooked you, I'm 

sorry. Yes, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FORD: &#9;Thank you, Mr 

Chairman, for and on behalf of Mrs Mgoduka and Mrs Faku. Mr 

Vermeulen, do I understand your evidence to be that your colleagues 

during the preparation stages in Port Elizabeth, deliberately 

confused you or misled you with regard to the identities of those 

participating, was that the effect of your evidence?

 

MR VERMEULEN: No, the evidence is that they misled us by not 

finding the proper venue where the car was prepared.

MR FORD: I see. So you were aware at all times of all of those 

involved in the preparation of the bomb in the motor vehicle, by 

whom the motor vehicle was brought, et cetera?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR FORD: Was Mr Lotz at any stage present?

MR VERMEULEN: I don't know, I have never seen him at the 

scene.

MR FORD: Now you have suggested in your evidence that if you 

did not carry out this order, there was a real chance of you losing 

your work and also that you could be eliminated?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR FORD: What brought you to that conclusion, Mr Vermeulen?

MR VERMEULEN: At that stage I was involved in lots of 

operations before that, and I know about a lot of sensitive 

information.

MR FORD: Now you heard Mr De Kock's evidence of the 

relationship which he had with his men and which he stated quite 

clearly that what his attitude would have been if one of his men had 

felt unable to participate in a certain operation?

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct.

MR FORD: If I understood his evidence it was that it may have led 

to - certainly not a question of elimination of that person, he may 

have been less readily promoted, but there is no question of him 

being eliminated, just because he didn't feel capable of participating 

in a special operation?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, it is not necessarily that 

elimination would have come from Mr De Kock. The senior people 

higher above could have decided something like that.

MR FORD: Did you ever have any reason to suspect that if you had 

declined to participate in this operation, Mr De Kock wouldn't just 

have appointed somebody else in your place?

MR VERMEULEN: He could have, Mr Chairman.

MR FORD: Were you - happy is not the appropriate word, but you 

were ready to participate at all times? Did you have any hesitation 

about this operation?

MR VERMEULEN: No, I didn't have any hesitations.

MR FORD: Why not?

MR VERMEULEN: Because when I received orders from my 

seniors, I always tried to comply, Mr Chairman.

MR FORD: The point I am trying to make, Mr Vermeulen, is that 

you obeyed this order, not because you were afraid of being 

eliminated, but because that was the way you operated.

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct.

MR FORD: And I am putting it to you then, Mr Vermeulen, that 

your suggestion that there was a real possibility of you being 

eliminated in these circumstances, is just not correct.

MR VERMEULEN: No, I won't say that.

MR FORD: Just give me a moment, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr 

Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR FORD

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Brink?

MR BRINK: I have no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR BRINK

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Only one question, 

thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Vermeulen, you obeyed the order 

because you simply had no choice?

 

MR VERMEULEN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: And depending on the breach of your security 

measures, that will depend what type of action will be taken against 

you?

MR VERMEULEN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may step down, Mr Vermeulen. 

MR VERMEULEN: Thank you.

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

MR CORNELIUS&#9;420&#9;N J VERMEULEN

 

PORT ELIZABETH HEARING&#9;AMNESTY/EASTERN CAPE

MR HUGO&#9;430&#9;N J VERMEULEN

 

MR FORD&#9;433&#9;N J VERMEULEN

 

MR CORNELIUS&#9;434&#9;N J VERMEULEN

 

