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TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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 TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;16 FEBRUARY 1999

HELD AT:&#9;METHODIST CHURCH, JOHANNESBURG

NAME: &#9;ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS

NUMBER:&#9;AM7376/97&#9;

DAY:&#9;&#9;9

______________________________________________________ MS NHLAYASI:   Thank you Mr Chair. The first application for the day is Mimi Barnabus, appearing on page 74, application ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible) Selepe. Is he present?

MS NHLAYASI:   I’ve seen Mr Selepe, but I don’t know what’s the -

CHAIRPERSON:   Before we proceed with your matter, I’d like to speak to him please. Where is he? Let him come in.

Mr Selepe, last week your matter was postponed because of certain technical problems that you were experiencing with your representative. Do you remember?

MR SELEPE:   Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON:   I’d like you to, or let me put it this way. Are you comfortable with English or would you prefer to speak in some other language? Because what we are going to talk about is important.

MR SELEPE:   I prefer to use other language.

CHAIRPERSON:   Which one?

MR SELEPE:   I’m prefer Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON:   We will translate for you. Is it number four? Okay. I hope your attorney at that time had explained to you that I was postponing the matter to today in order to give you an opportunity to obtain other legal representation. Do you understand that?

MR SELEPE:   Yes I do understand that.

CHAIRPERSON:   Did your attorney tell you that?

MR SELEPE:   They were still busy with arrangement. Even now I’m still waiting for that.

CHAIRPERSON:   What I’m asking you is, last week, did your attorney inform you that I was giving you until today to make other arrangements?

MR SELEPE:   Yes he told me so.

CHAIRPERSON:   Have you done so, or what is the position?

MR SELEPE:   I was told that the legal representative would be here today, but it looks like we are still waiting for him. I was told that they found one to come here and represent me. One of the staff members from the TRC paid me a visit Saturday in prison. He told me that there is someone, I don’t know whether that is Sally Sealy or somebody else.

CHAIRPERSON:   I’m not concerned about Sally Sealy now. I’m asking you, because it is your application, not hers. What have you done about getting alternative representation so that we can finish with your application today? That’s what I’m asking you.

MR SELEPE:   I did nothing because on that very last day I was promised that somebody would be organised for me, a new legal representative would be organised, so I left that in their hands because I did not have money to organise one for myself, they told me that they were going to inform me if they found one. They came over the weekend to tell me that I did not make any attempts to find a legal representative because I know that money will be involved there.

CHAIRPERSON:   Who told you this now? That somebody, or a legal representative, will be found for you.

MR SELEPE:   The people who were present here last week and a group of people from the ANC. I cannot remember who actually uttered those words, but they were people outside there, the very same people who organised legal representative for me the very first one. Those are the same people who told me about this arrangement.

CHAIRPERSON:   I’m keen to finish your application, because the three of us are stuck with your application. It can’t be heard by anybody else, because we’ve heard half your evidence already. We don’t know when the three of us are going to be put on the same panel again, maybe never. That’s why while we are together I would like to finish your application. Do you understand that? Because it’s unfair to you. Do you follow what I’m saying?

MR SELEPE:   Yes, I do follow. I am ready, but, I’m always ready all the time, but the problem is only with my legal representative. I’m not sure if a person is allowed to come and testify without a legal representative.

CHAIRPERSON:   I must say you have that right. I wouldn’t advise it ‘though. I would prefer you to have a legal representative. Unless you have serious problems with the representatives. You see, my advise to you also is not to rely on promises of other people. Because it is you that is the applicant. I think I’m going to give you until tomorrow. See what you can do today, so that we can finish this. And it’s pointless for attorneys to come to us and say they want a record and we must postpone it, because we don’t know when that application can be further heard in the future. Do you understand what I’m saying?

MR SELEPE:   Yes I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON:   I’m not very happy that you have been disappointed about being represented. You were made promised and ‘til today nothing has happened. Therefore I think you must take the thing in your own hands, and don’t rely on anybody else. Do you understand what I’m saying?

MR SELEPE:   Yes I understand but I’ll have to talk to my family first, as far as this issue of a legal representative is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON:   I have been told from another source also, that it can be that the TRC can appoint an attorney for you. Are you happy with that?

MR SELEPE:   Yes, I will appreciate that as long as I’m having a legal representative.

CHAIRPERSON:   I’m going to ask the prison authorities to keep you for the balance of the day, so that you can talk to some TRC officials, so that that can be put into place immediately. Are you in agreement with it?

MR SELEPE:   I don’t think there will be a problem at all.

CHAIRPERSON:   Then you can be seated, and during the, one of the adjournments, I will instruct an official to see to it that they talk to you and arrange an attorney for you. Okay?

MR SELEPE:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   You can be seated now, then.

MS NHLAYASI:   Thank you Mr Chair, it’s application number AM7376/97, page 74. The name is Mimi Barnabus. Mr Chair I also wish to bring to you attention that the name appearing on the application form is her nickname. Her full names are Ellen Vathiswa Barnabus.

CHAIRPERSON:   Spell that please.

MS NHLAYASI:   Ellen, E L L E N, the other one it’s Vathiswa V A T H I S W A. Yes. Then her ID number, it’s 750902 1206 08 4.

CHAIRPERSON:   Is she miss or Mrs?

MS NHLAYASI:   It’s miss.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Barnabus, which language would you prefer to use? Ellen which language which you prefer to use?

MS BARNABUS:   Xhosa.

CHAIRPERSON:   Xhosa? Very well. It will be on number three on that, the receiver.

Have you any objection to the taking of the oath?

MS NHLAYISI:   Mr Chair could we just try and exchange this? It seems there’s a problem.

CHAIRPERSON:   Will you please stand. Do you swear that the evidence you’re about to give will be the truth and nothing but the truth? Raise your right hand and say, so help me God.

ELLEN VATHISWA BARNABUS:   (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON:   Please proceed.

MR SIBANYONI:   Mr Chairperson looking at the ID number and the date of birth, one of the two should be incorrect. The date of birth on the form, as well as the ID number.

MS NHLAYISI:   Can I just try and get clarification on that? She says the date of birth as it appears on the form is the correct one, but when her ID came back it indicated 1975, that means the ID number is sort of incorrect.

MR SIBANYONI:   Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON:   When did you get your ID book?

MS BARNABUS:   ...(not translated)

CHAIRPERSON:   This year?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   They’re even telling us when we were born, hey.

Yes, proceed.

EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYASI:   Ms Barnabas, you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   How old are you?

MS BARNABUS:   I’m 24 years old.

CHAIRPERSON:   And you say in your application you were ...(inaudible) you joined the SDU?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes. I joined the SDU in 1992 or 1993 I’m not, or in 1993, I’m not so sure.

CHAIRPERSON:   When you were approximately 18 years old?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Proceed.

MS NHLAYASI:   Thank you. Ms Barnabus you’ve just said that you joined the SDU’s in 1992 or 1993. You were at Mnaheng section in Katlehong. Is that correct?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYASI:   Mnaheng section is also known as William Dingaan section. Is that correct?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYASI:   Who was your commander at the time when you joined?

MS BARNABUS:   Mathula Mtabela.

MS NHLAYASI:   There’s an incident ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

MS BARNABUS:   Mathula Mtabela. Mathula Mtabela.

MS NHLAYASI:   You’ve indicated in your application form that you’re applying for amnesty for the murder of one Thabiso, whose surname you do not know. Can you briefly tell us, when did this incident occur, can you remember?

MS BARNABUS:   It was in August.

MS NHLAYASI:   Of which year?

MS BARNABUS:   1993.

MS NHLAYASI:   Can you briefly tell this Commission what happened, as far as you were involved in this incident?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes. On that particular day we moved from Mathula’s home to Thabiso’s home, and he was standing outside next to the kitchen. Mathula asked her, Mathula questioned him as to why did he led to our arrest.

MS NHLAYASI:   What was the reason for you going to Thabiso’s place in the first place?

MS BARNABUS:   We went there to kill him.

MS NHLAYISI:   What was the reason for you wanting to kill him?

MS BARNABUS:   Because he was an informant.

MS NHLAYISI:   You had information that he was a police informer, so that’s why you went there to kill him. Is that correct?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes.

MS NHLAYISI:   How did you get this information?

MS BARNABUS:   We were suspecting him because he would be seen standing with the police and the soldiers. And one day there was this community meeting. His father came to the meeting. I don’t know what had happened in his house. He requested the community not to associate his activities with his family. That is when we discovered that even his family knows that he is, he was collaborating with the police.

CHAIRPERSON:   Did, at that meeting, did you see that as an admission, when he said his activities should not be attributed to those of his family?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes. Our suspicions were confirmed.

MS NHLAYISI:   The decision to kill Thabiso, where was it taken? Was it taken at the very meeting where his father was present, or was it taken at a later stage?

MS BARNABUS:   That was taken after some time after the meeting.

MS NHLAYISI:   Was the meeting convened for this purpose, where this issue about Thabiso being an informer was discussed?

MS BARNABUS:   Will you please repeat your question.

MS NHLAYISI:   You’re saying that a decision that Thabiso should be killed was not taken at the meeting where his father was present. My question is, was there another meeting convened at a later stage, where this decision was taken, or what was the position?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, there was another meeting.

MS NHLAYISI:   Was it still the meeting of the community, or which people convened this particular meeting where this decision was taken?

MS BARNABUS:   It was not a community meeting, but it was just an SDU meeting.

MS NHLAYISI:   So you were given orders to be one of those people who were going to take part in the killing. Is that correct?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   Which section of Tokoza was the SDU to which you were attached?

MS BARNABUS:   That is Maheng section in Katlehong.

CHAIRPERSON:   Maheng?

MS BARNABUS:   Monaheng. M O N A H A N G.

MS NHLAYISI:   With who were you supposed to go and carry out this particular order?

MS BARNABUS:   With Mathula Mtabela.

MS NHLAYISI:   Who was also your commander at that stage?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   Okay, tell us what happened after you have arrived at Thabiso’s parental home?

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible) it this way. Were you armed?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, I was.

CHAIRPERSON:   What with?

MS BARNABUS:   A pistol.

CHAIRPERSON:   And you say your commander spoke to him there when he was standing in front of his house?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   After they spoke, what happened?

MS BARNABUS:   When he started questioning him he ran away.

CHAIRPERSON:   Where?

MS BARNABUS:   He went to the house, he ran to the house.

CHAIRPERSON:   What did you do?

MS BARNABUS:   We went, we followed him to the house.

CHAIRPERSON:   And?

MS BARNABUS:   Mathula went to the bedroom. He was inside the bedroom and he closed the door. Mathula pushed the door to the bedroom and tried to put in the firearm and Thabiso grabbed this firearm and they went out of the bedroom struggling with this firearm. And I shot Thabiso at his back.

CHAIRPERSON:   From where?

MS BARNABUS:   I was at the door, in the kitchen. They were out of the bedroom now and they were in the kitchen now.

CHAIRPERSON:   Are you talking about the door leading to outside?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, he passed away. He died.

MS NHLAYISI:   Thank you Mr Chair. After you have fired that shot, what did you do next?

MS BARNABUS:   When he was already lying on the floor Mathula shot at him also and we left the house.

MS NHLAYISI:   What happened to the firearm that you had on that particular day?

MS BARNABUS:   I handed it over to Mathula.

MS NHLAYISI:   As a member of the SDU in Monahang section, did you usually go on patrols?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   Were there any occasions where you carried a firearm, except this particular day where Thabiso was killed?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON:   What was wrong with being an informer those days? What did you find wrong with that?

MS BARNABUS:   Because he was, the information was leaking through him about our activities as we were fighting in the township, so he would forward the information to the people., to the police.

CHAIRPERSON:   And what was wrong with telling the police, as far as you were concerned?

MS BARNABUS:   The police would arrest us and if we were about to execute a certain operation we would find the police there, knowing everything about the operation.

CHAIRPERSON:   And the operation would be of a political nature?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, patrolling, and protecting ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON:   Do you know where you were born?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, I know.

CHAIRPERSON:   Where?

MS BARNABUS:   In Natalspruit Hospital.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes.

MS NHLAYISI:   Thank you. Ms Barnabus, on the day when you went to Thabiso’s parental home, can you remember whether any doors, or any property, was broken in the process?

MS BARNABUS:   What I can remember is the window panes. I heard the sound of the breaking of the window panes.

MS NHLAYISI:   At what stage did you hear the sound of breaking window panes?

MS BARNABUS:   When Mathula was inserting the firearm through the bedroom door.

MS NHLAYISI:   So the breaking of the windows was caused by a shot from that firearm?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, that is correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   I asked you whether you ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   Did you associate yourself with the breaking of that window?

MS BARNABUS:   At the time I hadn’t fired a shot when the windows were broken.

CHAIRPERSON:   No I know but, did you agree with what your commander was doing in an attempt to execute your operation? It seems that was the only way he could get hold of Thabiso.

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, I agreed with that.

MS NHLAYISI:   Is that the only incident, wherein you were involved where somebody was killed? Are there no other incidents where people were injured and you were involved?

MS BARNABUS:   No, there is no other incident.

MS NHLAYISI:   Mr Chair, that is all for now. The applicant

is applying for murder, possession of unlicensed firearms, malicious damage to property, and ammunition, that’s correct.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI

ADV STEENKAMP ADDRESSES THE COMMITTEE:   Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman may we just for the record purpose, the deceased were killed, according to the death certificate, on the 25th of August 1993, and his full names if Johannes Thabiso Mokotedi. Thabiso with an H. Mr Chairman I have to inform you as well that,

...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

ADV STEENKAMP: Mokotedi, M O K O T E D I. I have to inform you Mr Chairman that the father of the late Johannes Mokotedi, Mr Zachiah Mokotedi, is present here today. He is opposing the amnesty application of the applicant, on the grounds that, as far as he was concerned, the applicant was never an informer whatsoever. I mean the deceased. I beg your pardon Mr Chairman. And also that the deceased fully supported the struggle as it then was called. Mr Mokotedi at that stage, even today, was also an ANC member, and he says his son was also an ANC member. As far as he is concerned he was never used as an IFP or police spy or informer then.

&#9;He also feels he’s not in a position to forgive the applicant, and he says the deceased, the killing of his son, brought a lot of pain and hardship to him, and he is not in a position to forgive the applicant. 

Thank you Mr Chairman, that will be all.

CHAIRPERSON:   Do you intend him to give evidence, or are those submissions all that he wants to say?

ADV STEENKAMP:   Those were the submissions, thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE:   Ms Barnabas, you’ve heard those submissions made by Mr Mokotedi. What’s your comment on that?

MS BARNABUS:   All I can say, we saw him as an informant because he would be seen with police, and the police at the time were enemies of our community, but he was the only person who would be seen in the company of police, that is why we regarded him as a person who was taking the information from the township to the police.

ADV GCABASHE :   Had you personally seen him in the company of the police?

MS BARNABUS:   No.

ADV GCABASHE:   Whose information were you personally relying on?

MS BARNABUS:   I heard that from the meeting, SDU meeting.

CHAIRPERSON:   Were you present in that community meeting where you believed he made an admission and said that his activities should not be laid on the doorstep of his family? Were you in that meeting?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, I was present.

CHAIRPERSON:   Where he himself, in effect, admitted this, as far as you’re concerned?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, he is the one who uttered these words.

ADV GCABASHE:   Just on that point, I had actually assumed that it’s Thabiso’s father who had given you the information. Are you saying that Thabiso attending this meeting and Thabiso said that what he was doing should not be associated with his family?

MS BARNABUS:   It’s not Thabiso himself, it’s his father. He is the one who gave us that information.

ADV GCABASHE:   Yes, this is where my confusion arises, because the question just before mine was on the assumption that Thabiso had been at the meeting. And you hadn’t been clear actually in your evidence earlier on. So Thabiso’s father, who is today opposing the application, attended the meeting. You were at that meeting, and you heard him say that his son was involved in activities with the police, and that whatever his son was doing should not be associated with the family?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE:   Who was at home when you went to carry out your operation and kill Thabiso? Was there anybody at Thabiso’s home, apart from Thabiso?

MS BARNABUS:   There was a tenant, a lady, a tenant who was there on the premises.

ADV GCABASHE:   And then Matuli, where is he today?

MS BARNABUS:   He passed away.

ADV GCABASHE:   When did he pass away?

MS BARNABUS:   In 1994.

ADV GCABASHE:   Thank you. Thank you Judge.

MR SIBANYONI:   Thank you Mr Chairperson.

&#9;Ms Barnabus, on page 78 in answering question number 11(a) you said it was executed as an approval of sectional youth. What did you mean by that?

MS BARNABUS:   That was a general agreement of the SDU’s of Monahang section.

MR SIBANYONI:   But why do you say sectional youth?

MS BARNABUS:   He was, he was residing in our section so that was an agreement of the section as a whole, our section that is.

MR SIBANYONI:   Was there any youth organisation?

MS BARNABUS:   It was the ANC youth league.

MR SIBANYONI:   Did it also discuss and take a decision about this matter about Thabiso?

MS BARNABUS:   No.

MR SIBANYONI:   You said you shot Thabiso, he fell, and then Matuli shot him when he had already fell down. Was Thabiso still alive when Matuli shot at him?

MS BARNABUS:   I am not certain about that.

MR SIBANYONI:   Did you undergo any training in weapons?

MS BARNABUS:   ...(translation inaudible)

MR SIBANYONI:   Thank you Mr Chairperson. No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON:   Ms Barnabus you were very young when you joined the SDU, comparatively speaking. And being a female at that time it was unusual. Is it not so? I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with what you did, joining the SDU as a female, but it wasn’t, one didn’t find many females doing that kind of work. Would you agree?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes I agree with that.

CHAIRPERSON:   And we have been informed of the traumatic experiences that, in particular, the youth had to endure in that area at that time. We’re also informed that things have gone back to almost normality. Is that correct?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, that is true.

CHAIRPERSON:   What are you doing now?

MS BARNABUS:   I am doing my last year in teaching.

CHAIRPERSON:   I’m pleased to hear that.

MS BARNABUS:   I am busy with my last year doing a teaching diploma.

CHAIRPERSON:   What do you see for the future of this country, given the apartheid era that we’ve just passed? Would you like people to live together as this one nation that everybody speaks about, and to live in freedom?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes, I would like freedom.

CHAIRPERSON:   And would you also include that as being friendly with everybody, to make peace with our past enemies and vice versa?

MS BARNABUS:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   The family of Thabiso, have you ever attempted to approach them, to make your peace with them?

MS BARNABUS:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why not?

MS BARNABUS:   ...(no English interpretation) 

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MS BARNABUS: ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON:   In a quest to become friendly and to set aside all this hate which has resulted from the apartheid era, can you see your way clear to speak to the family of Thabiso, and make peace with them, if it can be done?

MS BARNABUS:   ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON:   So if your attorney and some other people can make such an arrangement for you to be able to talk to them, you will be willing to do so?

MS BARNABUS:   ...(no English interpretation).

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes. By the way, were you ever arrested for this crime?

MS BARNABUS:   ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, thank you, you are excused. 

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Nhlayasi I would be thankful if you and Mr Steenkamp would perhaps make an attempt to facilitate a meeting of the applicant and the family, to whatever end, but at least make an attempt. ...(indistinct) reconciliation, it would seem.

MS NHLAYISI:   We’ll do that Mr Chair.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NAME:&#9;&#9;SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA

NUMBER:&#9;&#9;AM5475/97

______________________________________________________

MS NHLAYISI:   The next application is Sipho Japtha Maduna, page 107, amnesty application AM5475/97.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Maduna, what language would you prefer to use?

MR MADUNA:   Zulu.

CHAIRPERSON:   Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? 

MR MADUNA:   ...(no English interpretation)

CHAIRPERSON:   Well, let’s start all over then.

Do you prefer to use Zulu when testifying?

MR MADUNA:   Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   Now it is customary to take the oath, to affirm that you will tell the truth when testifying. Have you got any objection to the taking of the oath, or affirming that you will tell the truth?

SIPHO JAPTHA MADUNA:   (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON:   Please be seated. Yes?

MS NHLAYISI:   Thank you Mr Chair. The applicant is applying for amnesty for the following offences. Murder of - His ID number is 661011 5550 08 9. The offences that he’s applying amnesty for are murder of one Mkolise Sitwala, arson, malicious damage to property, possession of unlicensed firearms and ammunition, possession of explosives, and attempted murder. ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct)

MS NHLAYISI: The person is unknown. The name of the person is unknown.

EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: &#9;Mr Maduna, you were a member of the Self-Defence Unit in Mavimela section, also known as Sarajevo. Is that correct?

MR MADUNA:   That’s correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   Mavimela section is in Katlehong. You were a member of the Self-Defence Unit at Mavimela section in Katlehong, is that correct?

MR MADUNA:   ... (reply in Zulu - not translated).

MS NHLAYISI:   Who was your commander?

MR MADUNA:   Zwandile

MS NHLAYISI:   When did you join the SDU’s?

MR MADUNA:   In 1990.

MS NHLAYISI:   You also informed in consultation that you also participated in the activities of the SDU’s in Radebe section, also in Katlehong. Is that correct?

MR MADUNA:   That’s correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   Who was your commander at Radebe section?

MR MADUNA:   Mbongani.

MS NHLAYISI:   You have applied for amnesty for the killing of one Mkolise Sitwala. When did this incident take place?

MR MADUNA:   In 1993.

MS NHLAYISI:   Where did it happen?

MR MADUNA:   In Radebe section.

MS NHLAYISI:   With who were you when you carried out this particular order?

MR MADUNA:   I was alone.

MS NHLAYISI:   Who gave you an order to kill Mkolise?

MR MADUNA:   Mr Mbongani gave me the order.

MS NHLAYISI:   What was the reason given to you for carrying out this particular order? Why were you supposed to kill Mkolise?

MR MADUNA:   We discovered that Mkolise was a member of IFP.

MS NHLAYISI:   What was your source of information regarding this piece of information?

MR MADUNA:   We discussed about it first in a meeting, as a civic association in Radebe. At the time at Mkolise’s place there were no other people, no other family members. They were gone already. We discussed about it. We realised that people who were Inkatha members used to go visit Mkolise. Mkolise used to go with them. What assured me about this is that I asked him, I personally asked him, and he confirmed this. He said to me he was a member of an IFP.

MS NHLAYISI:   When did you ask him about his membership in the IFP?

MR MADUNA:   On the day when he was murdered, when I murdered him

MS NHLAYISI:   At that stage the decision to kill him had already been taken. Is that correct?

MR MADUNA:   That’s correct. We had already taken the decision.

MS NHLAYISI:   So where and how did you carry out this order?

MR MADUNA:   Mr Mbongani came to see me and told me that Mkolise was around. I think it was on a week-end. He told me that Mkolise was around at his girlfriend’s place, and he told me to go there and kill him. I went there, and I found out he was there, and another guy with him. And his girlfriend was from the kitchen going towards the dining room. And I went inside, I ask as to who was Mkolise and they pointed him. I told him I needed to see him outside. He asked me where we were going. I told him we were going to talk about it outside. 

&#9;We went towards the graveyard and when we arrived there in a bush area like, next to the graveyard, I told him that I’m being sent to kill him, and he asked me who sent me to do so. I told him that other people have sent me because he was a member of IFP. And he told me that the truth was he was a member of IFP but he wanted to no longer belong to IFP. And I said to him since his father was also an IFP and we have his father in our possession we are going to kill his father so that he join the ANC. And I ask him if he will agree with this proposal, and he said no, and that’s when I shot him.

MS NHLAYISI:   What type of firearm did you have on the day when you carried out this particular order?

MR MADUNA:   Nine millimetre shotgun.

MS NHLAYISI:   How many times did you shoot him?

MR MADUNA:   Once.

MS NHLAYISI:   When you left, was he dead already?

MR MADUNA:   I think he was dead already. 9mm shotgun. There are different types of 9mms, I’m referring to the short one, 9mm short one, the one that is almost the 765 size.

CHAIRPERSON:   It’s a pistol.

MR MADUNA:   Yes.

MS NHLAYISI:   So the reason for killing Mkolise was there was information that he was an IFP member, therefore he had to be eliminated. Is that correct?

MR MADUNA:   That’s correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   You’ve also mentioned, amongst other things, that you were involved in burning shacks at Mngadi section. Could you briefly tell us about this incident? When did it happen?

MR MADUNA:   It was in 1993. 

MS NHLAYISI:   Which month was it?

MR MADUNA:   No, I can’t remember the month.

MS NHLAYISI:   To who did this shack belong, or shacks rather, belong? The shacks that you burned at Mngadi. Do you know the owners thereof?

MR MADUNA:   I don’t know the owners. All I know is that in those shacks IFP members were living there. There were no longer ANC.

CHAIRPERSON:   And where were these shacks? In an informal settlement, or off a particular road, or where?

MR MADUNA:   Next to Mgati Street, near the church, a certain church. There are no longer names in Katlehong. I don’t know the name, I don’t know the address, but I can take you there.

CHAIRPERSON:   Carry on.

MS NHLAYISI:   It was in Mgati Street or Mgati section?

MR MADUNA:   Mgati section.

MS NHLAYISI:   Give then the full address as to the name of the street where it is situated. Is that correct?

MR MADUNA:   That’s correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   What was the reason for you going to burn these particular shacks? Could you explain?

MR MADUNA:   Those shacks belonged to IFP members. 

MS NHLAYISI:   How did you know this?

MR MADUNA:   We could see them after fought with them, or after we were attacking each other, they would run to those shacks. And even the same day when we went and burned down those shacks, we just had a fight with them earlier on and then they ran to those shacks. Therefore we went to those shacks and burned them. I went there and I entered. I discovered that these other shacks were quiet. 

&#9;And then one particular shack which was at the centre, there were voices coming there, people were talking from that shack, that’s when we started shooting towards that shack and then after that we took petrol and a box of match, we poured the petrol around, and then we set the shack alight.

MS NHLAYISI:   Are you in a position to say today whether people were injured or killed in that particular incident, or you don’t know?

MR MADUNA:   Yes, people were injured. People who were inside, and those shacks were set alight, almost all of them, because it started by one shack and then it went on to the next and the next.

CHAIRPERSON:   Were any people killed that day as a result of what you did? That is the question.

MR MADUNA:   When I say they were injured, I mean that they died. Because first we shot at them, and then later we set those shacks alight.

CHAIRPERSON:   You don’t know if they ran away, or do you?

MR MADUNA:   No, they didn’t. They didn’t run away, because I was standing right before the door, and I saw people lying down because when I, as I was shooting towards the house the door opened, and then I saw them lying down. And then afterwards that’s when I set the shacks alight.

CHAIRPERSON:   What firearm were you using?

MR MADUNA:   ...(translation inaudible) three.

MS NHLAYISI:   Are you in a position to say how many people were killed in that incident, or injured in that particular incident?

MR MADUNA:   No, I wouldn’t be sure. I didn’t get the time to check this, because immediately after I’ve set that house alight I ran away. Therefore I don’t know how many were there.

MS NHLAYISI:   You also do not know their identities? You cannot tell us who were injured or killed in that particular incident?

MR MADUNA:   That’s correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   Were you alone, or were you with others during this incident?

MR MADUNA:   I was with others.

MS NHLAYISI:   How many of you were there?

MR MADUNA:   If I remember very well it was myself and Michael, Zikes, Melusi. I think it was six of us.

MS NHLAYISI:   You also mentioned one King, a person known by the name of King, who was present.

MR MADUNA:   Yes, he was.

MS NHLAYISI:   Was this the same group that had been fighting the IFP members earlier on? The six of you.

MR MADUNA:   That’s correct.

MS NHLAYISI:   So, you were fighting, as they ran to the shacks you followed them immediately, you didn’t wait ‘til later?

MR MADUNA:   We fought and soldiers came, and then we waited. When it was dark and the soldiers were no longer there, we went there. We say them going to those shacks before we went, exactly where they went.

MS NHLAYISI:   You also mentioned that on another occasion you attacked a house, also in Mgadi section. That particular house was occupied by IFP members. Can you tell us about this particular incident?

MR MADUNA:   Yes. This house is at Mgadi, next to the tar road which separate Radebe section and Mgadi. We were fighting during the day with them. Soldiers came and it got quiet. Later we went back. We checked and we realised that the people we were looking for were also looking towards where we were. And then two people went back to the house. I had a 9mm with me, and a hand grenade, RD5. I ran, I jumped the fence, and as I got closer to the house I heard them talking. I broke the window. I threw the RD5 hand grenade, and then I ran away.

MS NHLAYISI:   Do you know whether any people were injured in this incident, or did you see any people running away from this particular house when you attacked?

MR MADUNA:   I didn’t see, because immediately after I’ve done so I ran away. I went to Radebe section.

MS NHLAYISI:   Who was with you when you carried out this particular order?

MR MADUNA:   I was with Mbongani.

MS NHLAYISI:   Only the two of you?

MR MADUNA:   Yes.

MS NHLAYISI:   Do you know what happened in this particular house after you had left? Do you have any information as to whether any people were killed or injured? Or do you only know about the damage to the property?

MR MADUNA:   I don’t know about people being injured or killed, I only know about the property being damaged.

MS NHLAYISI:   In which year did this particular incident take place?

MR MADUNA:   In 1993.

MS NHLAYISI:   Can you remember the month?

MR MADUNA:   No, I can’t. I can’t remember the month. All I remember is that it was in 1993.

MS NHLAYISI:   Then you mentioned another incident that you say took place in 1994, wherein a hostel was attacked, that is Byafuti Hostel. What was the reason?

INTERPRETER:   Excuse me, I didn’t get the name of the hostel.

MS NHLAYISI:   Byafuti.

MR MADUNA:   One guy by the name of Sam came to me. He told me that there was a meeting, and he told me as to where the meeting was going to take place. Sam came to me and told me that there was a meeting which we were supposed to do. He told me where we were going to meet, the point where we were going to meet, and I went there. When I arrived there he told me that we were supposed to go and bomb the hostel Byafuti. He gave me rockets. We went there. We came from the direction of Tokoza, unit F. We entered there. We hid the first rocket and it didn’t hit the target, and then the second one went in and I heard the explosion. And then we left. We went back.

MS NHLAYISI:   How many people were involved in this attack?

MR MADUNA:   Sam, myself and other two gentlemen. I don’t know their names.

MS NHLAYISI:   Did you carry any weapon on this particular day?

MR MADUNA:   No, except for the RPG7.

MS NHLAYISI:   What was the reason for attacking this particular hostel, Byafuti Hostel?

MR MADUNA:   The reason was the community of Katlehong had already taken a decision that they didn’t want hostels any more. They wanted the hostels to be demolished or to be removed in the townships. Therefore we wanted to scare them to make sure that they leave the hostels, because the people who were the hostel dwellers were still there.

MS NHLAYISI:   Why did you target hostels in particular? Why did the community want the hostels to be demolished?

MR MADUNA:   We were tired because the hostel dwellers were attacking he community. We were tired of the hostel dwellers and their activities. That’s why the community decided not to have hostels any more in the townships.

MS NHLAYISI:   There’s another occasion wherein you were involved where a hostel in Tokoza was attacked. That was in Mshayazafe ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI:   I’m sorry, what did you say about Bays, I heard you mentioning the name Bays?

MR MADUNA:   Hostels were IFP, that’s where IFP people were staying, or armed wing of IFP were staying in hostels.

MS NHLAYISI:   There’s another incident where a hostel in Tokoza, that’s Mshayazafe hostel, was attacked. You also participated in this incident. Can you remember when did this incident take place?

MR MADUNA:   Yes I do remember, even ‘though I don’t remember the month, but it was in 1994 just before the elections.

CHAIRPERSON:   Where you people shot this rocket into Byafuti Hostel, were there any people who died as a result?

MR MADUNA:   Yes, there were. There were people who died, many of them.

ADV GCABASHE:   But do you know this as a fact, or are you just assuming that many people died when you shot that rocket into Byafuti hostel?

MR MADUNA:   I think I didn’t get the question accurate. I thought the Judge was asking me if the people who were staying in hostels were killing people from the township. I don’t know how many people died in hostel. All I know is that the rocket was thrown and it went inside and exploded, then we left.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

MR MADUNA:   ...(no English interpretation)

MS NHLAYISI:   The incident involving Mshayazafe hostel in Tokoza. When did it happen?

MR MADUNA:   In 1994. I don’t remember the month, but it was before the elections.

MS NHLAYISI:   The reason for attacking this particular hostel, is it the same as the one you have given with Byafuti? That you regarded the hostels as bases where IFP members or soldiers were basing. Is that correct?

MR MADUNA:   Yes, that’s correct.

ADV GCABASHE:   Can I just check, the Mshayazafe hostel incident. A lot of SDU sections were involved in that attack. Is that so? That’s SDU’s from different parts of Tokoza, and then Katlehong.

MR MADUNA:   Yes, that’s correct. It was a mass. We were coming from different areas.

ADV GCABASHE:   That’s the same incident where that photographer, Ken Oosterbrook, got killed. Is that the same Mshayazafe incident?

MR MADUNA:   I don’t have that knowledge.

ADV GCABASHE:   Okay, thank you.

MS NHLAYISI:   Could you explain what took place on this particular day, how was, were you involved in this incident?

MR MADUNA:   I was from Radebe and I was going to Mafimela, at home, I had an AK-47 with me. I saw many comrades and they were toyi toying, they were singing, and I joined them. There was a van, and in that van there was a RPG 7, fireguns were just fired between Tokoza and Myala. We went across to Tokoza. We went towards Penduka, near the hostels, and then the people who were responsible for rockets entered. We were deployed outside. When the first rocket exploded it didn’t sound too loud. The second one sounded too loud. And then fire guns were fired. This fight I think it took longer than usual.

MS NHLAYISI:   Do you know whether any people were killed in this incident, killed or injured?

MR MADUNA:   No I don’t know of people who died. I only know of one person who was injured. He was from Mavimbela.

MS NHLAYISI:   Are you in a position to tell this Committee who are the other people who participated in this incident?

MR MADUNA:   There were comrades, too many of them. I was one of the people in the mass. Then I wouldn’t know.

MS NHLAYISI:   So the hostel was also damaged?

MR MADUNA:   Yes, it was damaged.

MS NHLAYISI:   Lastly, you mentioned an incident wherein you were mandated by the community to go and buy firearms in Mozambique. Could you tell us about that particular incident?

MR MADUNA:   Yes. We ran out of guns. We used to buy them from Polla Park, and these shanganes who were selling the guns left for Vosloorus in hostel there, and we followed them there to buy the guns. And then after that they ran out of those guns because the demand increased. The stability unit used to disarm us, and the SADF. Then the community saw the need that we needed guns. 

&#9;Simange from Mozambique, that’s where he was born, he told us that he knew where we can get the guns from Mozambique. And then we needed one person with a passport who can accompany him. I was the one with a passport and the community elected me to accompany him to Mozambique. We went together. We went via Zimbabwe. We went to the Dongo Gara, that’s a refugee camp for the refugees from Mozambique, it’s near to Chipinga. We stayed there, and his mother was staying there, the guy I was with, he was a refugee there. We stayed at his home. We met other gentlemen he knew. We went to Mozambique. We used the Sipingo border gate. It’s not a border gate in use, because it was bombed a long time before we went there. 

&#9;We went to Chipinga Bara, it took us seven days to get there. These other gentlemen who accompanied us left us there, and they went and they brought back twelve AK, five G3, hand grenades, RG5, 12,5. And the rounds for AK and G3 they were full of, they were full in a sack. And RPG7 with six shells. We brought them back. We came back with these two gentlemen. Just before we arrived to Beit Bridge we left them there. When we were supposed to cross to South Africa our car broke, and then I had to come back here to fetch a car. I told the community as to what was going on and they bought the parts to fix the car. We fixed the car and then after we fixed the car we drove, but we couldn’t trust this car any more. We wanted to hide the other weapons. I think it was about nine and a half kilometres away from Messina, or the bridge to Messina, in a forest there, we left the RPG7 and grenades there, and the pistols. We took twelve AK-47's and five G3, and rounds. We brought them back here to South Africa.

MS NHLAYISI:   The funding for this trip to Mozambique, where did the money come from?

MR MADUNA:   From the community. From the Radebe section community.

MS NHLAYISI:   The items that you mentioned that you brought back, where did you take them after your return?

MR MADUNA:   We used them or the SDU’s activities, and for the community.

MS NHLAYISI:   On your return from Mozambique, did you give these items, before using them, did you give them to any particular person? Were there for your commander or anybody in charge, or did you keep them with you?

MR MADUNA:   Michael and someone else took the guns. Michael and Mbongani, and they are the ones who distribute it to the various bases.

MS NHLAYISI:   So these particular incidents that you have mentioned here today, are these everything that you participated in, or is there anything else that you wish to add?

MR MADUNA:   As far as I can remember these are the only ones I have participated in.

MS NHLAYISI:   Mr Chair, that is all. To the offences that we mentioned earlier, that the applicant is applying amnesty for, I request you add dealing in unlicensed firearms, which was not mentioned earlier.

CHAIRPERSON:   Your attempted murder, I think there are one, two, three buildings or hostels, which were fired at, one of which he testifies that there were fatalities. The other two he can’t say whether there were any fatalities. What is the position there?

MS NHLAYISI:   Mr Chair I would request that we amend to say it’s attempted murders of unknown, it’s for the - undetermined number of people

CHAIRPERSON:   Number of people in two hostels. And with regard to the one where he knows there are casualties?

MS NHLAYISI:   I would request that we amend to say its murders of undetermined number of people.

CHAIRPERSON:   And of course the malicious injury to property, and arson in respect of all three.

MS NHLAYISI:   All three of them.

CHAIRPERSON:   Well, I’m not too sure whether the various hostels were damaged to the extent that it would be malicious injury to property or arson, but it can’t be both. What do you say?

MS NHLAYISI:   I don’t know. I’ve seen some pictures that have been annexed to his application. Apparently those were from the police docket. Maybe if the Committee would look at those pictures. There’s a picture on page 135, another one 136. If I look at them, personally I would say it’s malicious damage to property, I don’t know what is the feeling of the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON:   If they shot an F1 rocket into there it must be arson at least. Those things burn. Wouldn’t you agree? And even if a building is scorched, that’s arson. It’s a technicality but it’s a necessary technicality because we’re going to, if we’re going to grant amnesty we must be specific for what we’re granting. Do you want to take lunch break and think about it?

MS NHLAYISI:   I think so. I will think about it and I will come back to you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS NHLAYISI

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished Ms Nhlayisi?

MS NHLAYISI:   That’s correct Mr Chair. Regarding the question that you posed earlier before we went out on lunch break, I request to amend and request for amnesty for arson regarding the incidences at the two hostels. Yes. Plus the arson with the shacks at Mgadi. So it’s three incidences of arson.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

MS NHLAYISI:   And the shacks at Mgadi section.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

MS NHLAYISI:   It’s the shacks at Mgadi section.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

MS NHLAYISI:   Yes there are two hostels. It’s Byafuti and Mshayazafe hostel. Yes.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

MS NHLAYISI:   No.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

MS NHLAYISI:   Yes I am.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

ADV STEENKAMP:   Thank you Mr Chair. I have no questions for the applicant, thank you sir.

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

MR SIBANYONI:   I don’t have any questions thank you Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE:   Just to clarify, MITP, malicious injury to property, also only in respect of two hostels, not three?

MS NHLAYISI:   No it’s two hostels. Those plus a house at Mgadi.

ADV GCABASHE:   There was one area where you were going too fast, I couldn’t quite catch what you were saying. It was quite earlier on in your evidence. You were talking about going to fetch Mkolise, yes, and you said that you took him to a bush near the graveyard, and that’s where you told him that you were sent to kill him. He confirmed his IFP membership, and you said something about his father, and I wasn’t too sure as to what the discussion was about his father, and what the relationship was between the killing of Mkolise and his father, had to with what you were saying. Can you just, just that little bit about his father. What role did his father play, or what was it that you were saying?

MR MADUNA:   I said, I asked Mr Mkolise - First I told him that I was sent to kill him, because he’s a member of Inkatha. But then he said to me he was Inkatha but now he wanted to leave Inkatha. And then I trap him. I said to him, we have his father with us, and I said to him, now if I can give him the gun which I had in my possession to go and shoot his father, will he do so, and then he answered back and said, no, he wouldn’t.

ADV GCABASHE:   No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON:   As a matter of interest, if you were in his place that day, would you have shot your father?

MR MADUNA:   Yes. If my father was an IFP member and I was an ANC I was supposed to kill him or he was supposed to kill me. At that time this was appropriate, or this was a usual thing. Some comrades and some fathers wanted to kill their children for being members of the opposite organisation. This was normal in those days.

MS NHLAYISI:   Mr Chair, that concludes my role for the day. I think one of my colleagues will be taking over.

NAME:&#9;&#9;DANIEL MAHESE BOOI

NUMBER:&#9;&#9;AM 7561/97

______________________________________________________ADV STEENKAMP:   Mr Chairman, excuse me, Mr Shane will be next. I’ve already asked him to come in and be ready. He tells me he will be ready. He will be next Mr Chairman. 

&#9;Mr Chairman I do apologise, I’ve asked him now again to be ready. I phoned him again and tell him please to be ready at two o’clock, so we can start.

CHAIRPERSON:   Is there nothing else we can do in the meantime?

ADV STEENKAMP:   No Mr Chairman. Mr Sibeko’s client is only for tomorrow. The rest of the clients of Ms Nhlayisi are in custody. She still has to consult with them. But Mr Shane’s clients are here and he’s supposed to be ready now sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(indistinct) do tomorrow.

ADV STEENKAMP:   Mr Chairman I would guess about four, four to five. Yes sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   I see there’s left 11 applicants. Will we finish the balance today, the others?

ADV STEENKAMP:   The difficulty is some of the attorneys need still to consult with their clients Mr Chairman. Some of them only started this morning to consult with them, but be that as it may. 

CHAIRPERSON:   I hope they’re not going to charge for consulting, if they’re charging for the day’s appearance. Yes Mr Shane?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman I’d like to proceed with the application of Mr Antony Maci. I do believe he’s here. I have consulted, I saw him, and I asked him to be here at two o’clock. I told him we’re going to start at two o’clock, I don’t know where he is now.

CHAIRPERSON:   Where were you?

MR SHANE:   ...(indistinct) that we can start with.

CHAIRPERSON:   Well where were you at two o’clock, nevermind your client?

MR SHANE:   ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON:   Well, call your client. What happens to your other client that you wanted to call?

MR SHANE:   I don’t know where he is Mr Chairman. He’s been here the whole morning, I told him to be here at two o’clock. I don’t know where he is.

CHAIRPERSON:   What happens to his application now? It’s been called. You called it.

MR SHANE:   Well if he comes I’ll - if he can stand down and if we can proceed with Mr Booi who’s now before you Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON:   I hope this standing down procedure is not taken for granted. I may just be in a bad mood and not grant it. What’s the name of this client?

MR SHANE:   ...(indistinct)

INTERPRETER:   The speaker’s mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane will you put your speaker on please? Your speaker, yes. Mr Shane what you said now was not picked up by the tape recorder, because your speaker wasn’t on.

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman this is the application of Mr Daniel Mahese Booi, reference number AM 7561/97 on page 81. Mr Chairman if I can just know the number of the Sotho.

INTERPRETER:   Number four.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Booi I understand you want to testify in Sotho?

MR BOOI:   That’s correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   Have you any objection to the taking of the oath?

DANIEL MAHESE BOOI:   (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON:   Please be seated.

ADV GCABASHE:    Mr Booi don’t worry about that mike, it will stay on now. Don’t worry about pressing again, it will just stay on permanently. Okay.

EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE:   Mr Booi your identity number is written on your application 730405 5419 08 8. Is that the right number?

MR BOOI:   That’s correct.

MR SHANE:   Mr Booi you applied for amnesty for murder of Mr Dubula. Is that correct?

MR BOOI:   That’s correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   You also mention in your application form about another unknown person who died. Is that right?

MR BOOI:   That’s correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   Now you also had nothing to do with that person’s death and you therefore withdraw your application in respect of that unknown person.

MR BOOI:   That’s correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   You became a member of the ANC and also of the Self-Defence Unit for Katlehong or Natalspruit.

MR BOOI:   That’s correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   What was your function in the Self-Defence Unit?

MR BOOI:   I was an operator.

MR SHANE:   Now, this person, Mr Dubula, who you shot. First of all just describe what did you do relating to his death?

MR BOOI:   Dubula was a police informer.

MR SHANE:   You can speak Sotho, it will be translated.

MR BOOI:   Dubula was a police informer and also he was a member of IFP.

MR SHANE:   How did you know this?

MR BOOI:   Most of the times whenever he disappeared from the township, they internal stability unit police would arrive and disarm the community.

MR SHANE:   Right, now is it correct that, or explain to the learned Committee how your weapons were confiscated, and what part Dubula played in those weapons being confiscated.

CHAIRPERSON:   What was wrong with being in the company of the internal stability unit?

MR BOOI:   It was a big mistake if you were seen in the company of the stability unit because they used to harass the community and kill people. Therefore, everybody who was closely associated with the police was not trusted by the community at that time.

MR SHANE:   Right, and insofar as the deceased’s membership of he IFP is concerned, what did you know about that?

MR BOOI:   Please repeat your question.

MR SHANE:   What did you know about the deceased Dubula’s membership of the IFP?

MR BOOI:   Most of the time Dubula was closely associated with the hostel dwellers, which was a stronghold of the IFP then.

MR SHANE:   Right. Now, you say he was also a police informer, he used to tell the police something which caused you to lose something. Correct? What was that?

MR BOOI:   Whenever Dubula disappeared from the township the police would come and attack all the places where we kept our armoury.

MR SHANE:   That is where you kept your weapons?

MR BOOI:   That’s correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   Then while we’re on that point, although you didn’t mention it in your application, you did poses weapons without a licence. Correct?

MR BOOI:   They were not mine, they belonged to the community.

MR SHANE:   Yes, but they were in your possession. There were weapons in your possession, during that time.

MR BOOI:   They were not kept by me, but by the commander.

MR SHANE:   Yes, but you sometimes used weapons. Correct?

MR BOOI:   That’s correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   And when you used them they were in your possession for the time you used them. Correct?

MR BOOI:   That’s correct.

MR SHANE:   You never have had a licence to possess them. Correct?

MR BOOI:   That’s correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   So you will also seek amnesty for possession for the times when you possessed those weapons.

MR BOOI:   That’s correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   Now Mr Dabula, you shot him?

MR BOOI:   Yes, I did shoot him.

MR SHANE:   How many times did you shoot him?

MR BOOI:   I shot him once.

MR SHANE:   This was in 1993?

MR BOOI:   It was in 1993, I cannot really recall the month and the date.

MR SHANE:   Can you tell was it towards the end, in the beginning or in the middle, of 93?

MR BOOI:   It was in the middle of 1993.

MR SHANE:   Were you alone?

MR BOOI:   I was not alone.

MR SHANE:   Who were you with?

MR BOOI:   I was with Jabu Nkosi.

MR SHANE:   Was Jabu Nkosi also a member of the Self-Defence Unit?

MR BOOI:   That’s correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   Can you describe the circumstances where you found the deceased, and what you did before you killed him?

MR BOOI:   The, some comrades came with Dabula and said that we have found him. There was no firearm at that time, and me and Jabu rushed to fetch a firearm. We came back with the firearm and some of the comrades were still holding him, Dabula. MR SHANE:   Can you give the names of these comrades, or any of them?

MR BOOI:   The ones I remember are Jabu, Frank and Mandla. The rest I do not remember because there were many of us.

MR SHANE:   These ones that you’ve now names, were also SDU members?

MR BOOI:   Yes, they were SDU members.

MR SHANE:   So in fact when he was shot he had already been captured by other members of the SDU. Is that correct?

MR BOOI:   That’s correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   When you fired the shot at the deceased, had you know him? Had you met him before, did you know him?

MR BOOI:   It was not the first time I saw him.

MR SHANE:   When you shot him you were quite satisfied that he was an informer, and an IFP member. You knew that. Is that correct?

MR BOOI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   Can you remember, you say you fired one shot, Jabu Nkosi was the other person who fired. Can you remember how many shots Jabu fired?

MR BOOI:   The first person who shot him was Jabu. He shot him once, and he handed me the same AK-47 and I used it to shoot him once.

MR SHANE:   Do you know where you hit him?

MR BOOI:   In the head.

MR SHANE:   Did you aim for the head?

MR BOOI:   I just fired aimlessly, because I was not well trained.

MR SHANE:   Did the deceased die there and then on the spot, or can you, do you know what happened?

MR BOOI:   He died on the spot.

MR SHANE:   What did you do afterwards, after you shot him? What did you do? First of all what did you do with your weapon?

MR BOOI:   We took them, we took the weapon back to the commander and we went different ways because the police were already roaming the area.

MR SHANE:   Now when you took the weapon to your commander, did you give him a report that you’d killed the deceased?

MR BOOI:   That is so, sir.

MR SHANE:   Can you remember what the commander’s reaction was when you told him you’d killed the deceased?

MR BOOI:   He said that we did well if that was exactly what we did.

MR SHANE:   Right. Now who was the commander?

MR BOOI:   It’s Mr Msetla.

MR SHANE:   Thank you Mr Chairman, that’s evidence.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

ADV STEENKAMP:   No questions thank you Mr Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY ADV STEENKAMP

MS GCABASHE: Now, Dubula, did he live in your section?

MR BOOI:   Yes.

ADV GCABASHE:   And did he associate with the SDU comrades, the members?

MR BOOI:   Yes, he knew them.

ADV GCABASHE:   And how would he have come to know the spots where you hid your weapons?

MR BOOI:   When these weapons are stored they are stored by a group of all the people who patrol.

ADV GCABASHE:   Are you saying Dubula used to patrol with you?

MR BOOI:   Dubula was quite an unpredictable person. He was staying in our residential area but it was not his actual home. He was just a person who was happened to be staying there. And whenever he was present we used to be surprised as to where does he actually belong. He would pretend to be participating in all the activities.

ADV GCABASHE:   But did he patrol with you?

MR BOOI:   Sometimes he did.

ADV GCABASHE:   Now, I’m not too clear as to exactly where it is that you killed him. Your evidence is he was brought to you. Where were you? And where did you take him to when you killed him? Help me with those aspects.

MR BOOI:   We were at the Digula section and comrades brought him at Digula section and they told us that there is the Digula you’ve been long looking for. Where is the firearm? We went to consult our commander, and he gave us the AK-47. The comrades were still keeping him at that time. He was shot there at Digula section.

ADV GCABASHE:   Where was this? Was this at a house, in the veld, where exactly?

MR BOOI:   It was in the veld.

ADV GCABASHE:   Thank you very much. Thank you Chair.

MR SIBANYONI:   Thank you Mr Chairperson. Mr Booi you said he sometimes pretended as if he was patrolling with you. And at the same time you said he was in close contact with hostel dwellers. My question is, was he really an IFP member?

MR BOOI:   Yes, he was an IFP member.

MR SIBANYONI:   How do you know that he was an IFP member?

MR BOOI:   He’s got friends residing in the hostels and also at that time no-one who was not a member of IFP would be able to enter the hostels.

MR SIBANYONI:   Was he frequenting the hostels?

MR BOOI:   Thank you Mr Chairperson that’s the only questions.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes, thank you, you’re excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NAME:&#9;ANTHONY MACI

______________________________________________________

MR SHANE:   Thank you Mr Chairman. Can we proceed with the next matter? I call Antony Maci. He is present.

Pages 95 to 101 Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Maci what language would you want to use?

MR MACI:   Xhosa. 

INTERPRETER:   He’ll use Xhosa. Xhosa will be on channel three.

UNKNOWN:   And how do you pronounce your surname?

MR MACI:   It’s M A C I, Maci.

INTERPRETER: The speaker’s mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON:   Have you any objections to the taking of the oath?

ANTONY MACI:   (sworn, states)

CHAIRPERSON:   Please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MR SHANE:   Mr Maci, first of all, your identity number is on your application. 660327 5676 08 3. Is that the correct number?

MR MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   You will see on page 100 of your application you signed it. Is this your signature at the bottom?

MR MACI:   That’s correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   But you never ever signed it before a Commissioner of Oaths. Is that right?

MR MACI:   That’s correct.

MR SHANE:   But you are under oath now and what you say will be the truth. Is that correct? Your application wasn’t signed before a Commission.

MR MACI:   It’s the absolute truth, what I’m going to say to you.

CHAIRPERSON:   When you signed this affidavit or statement were you aware of the contents of this statement?

MR MACI:   Yes, I was fully aware of the contents of my statement.

CHAIRPERSON:   And you understood it?

MR MACI:   Yes, sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   You were satisfied that it contained what you wanted it to contain?

MR MACI:   That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes.

MR SHANE:   Today you are a member of the South African police stationed at Katlehong, and you’re a constable. Is that right?

MR MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   You applied for amnesty first of all for the unlawful possession of firearms, is that correct?

MR MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   What type of firearms were they?

MR MACI:   It’s AK-47 rifles and pistols and RPG7.

MR SHANE:   Is that a rocket launcher or what? What’s known as a bazooka?

MR MACI:   Yes, that’s the one known as a bazooka.

MR SHANE:   And you also possessed ammunition for these weapons?

MR MACI:   Yes I had ammunition.

MR SHANE:   And did that ammunition also include the projectile that we would fire from your so called bazooka?

MR MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   And you say besides the possession of the weapon you were involved in the transportation of these weapons?

MR MACI:   Yes, because the committee would give me funds to go and get these ammunitions from Polla Park, in Vosloorus hostel.

CHAIRPERSON:   So you were dealing in firearms. Wasn’t that it?

INTERPRETER:   May the speaker speak up, the applicant, we cannot hear him clearly.

MR MACI:   We would go and look for arms in Polla Park and a hostel in Vosloorus.

MR SHANE:   Would you buy them with money that was given to you by the community?

MR MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   And you would buy them in Polla Park from a certain Mozambican by the name of David, who was in a wheelchair. Correct?

MR MACI:   Yes, we bought them from David, and if he did not have stock, he would accompany us to Vosloorus where we would buy them and come back with the full stock.

MR SHANE:   Right, you bought them at Vosloorus at a hostel, you said?

MR MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   Was this an IFP hostel?

MR MACI:   That is correct.

MR SHANE:   Now you also, you bought them from another person in Shongweni section, Katlehong, as well. 

MR MACI:   That is correct. It was a Mr Madikizela.

MR SHANE:   And then you would transport these weapons back to the community. Can you tell the Commission, the Committee, whose vehicle did you use to transport?

MR MACI:   We used community cars, and sometimes we would use Dumisani Sithole’s car to go and buy these weapons.

MR SHANE:   And besides the weapons that you transported and bought, you also possessed your own AK-47 and pistol. Is that right?

MR MACI:   Yes that is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   Now, you apply for amnesty for murder.

MR MACI:   That is so, sir.

MR SHANE:   Right. First of all, you murdered, you shot a person by the name of Sikelo Nyekane.

MR MACI:   Yes I shot him, but it was a mistake. I thought they were the enemy, the police.

MR SHANE:   Now, when you shot Sikelo, is it correct that you had recently been released from detention without trial?

MR MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   You were in a house.

MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   Whose house was it?

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane you’re treading on thin ice here. Your client has given what looks like an incorrect answer, and you’re leading him now.

MR SHANE:   Right, now explain ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   You say that the killing of Nyekane was an accident, mistake.

MACI:   That is so, sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   Why do you say it’s a mistake?

MR SHANE:   Sorry Mr Chairman, if I can lead him, it will emerge exactly why it was a crime, why it wasn’t self defence, and I will lead him in why it was a political crime.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane I would thank you not to interrupt me. Why do you say it was a mistake?

MR MACI:   Somebody knocked roughly and kicked the doors. I enquired who was knocking and the person did not answer. As he was busy kicking the door, and as soon as the door opened I shot immediately. And when he fell inside the house that’s when I noticed that it was Sithelo. That is why I say it’s a mistake, because I mistook him for the internal stability unit police.

MR SHANE:   So when you heard this knock on the door, and when there was no response to your asking who it was, that’s when you thought in your mind that this was the police, the ISU?

MR MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   When you thought it was the ISU, what did you think that they, that means the ISU, were going to do?

MR MACI:   I thought they were going to arrest me, and detain me, and I was avoiding that. And I was in possession of an unlicensed AK-47 rifle.

MR SHANE:   Now, besides you not getting any response to you asking who was there when you heard this knock, you mentioned something about kicking the door, on the door. This person that was there was kicking on the door.

MR MACI:   Yes, sir.

MR SHANE:   What type of kicking was that?

MR MACI:   It was a rough kick, he was trying to kick the door open, that is why I thought it was the police.

MR SHANE:   So is it a similar way that the police behaved when they came knocking on doors?

MACI:   That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON:   Is that a bit of expert leading Mr Shane? Do you have personal knowledge of that?

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman I imagine the applicant does, because he was previously detained. I was just, it’s coming from him.

CHAIRPERSON:   Precisely, do you have it? How can you put it to him?

MR SHANE:   I don’t have personal knowledge of that.

CHAIRPERSON:   So leave it to him to describe then.

MR SHANE:   If this person who was on the other side of the door, the deceased Sikelo, if he responded to you when you asked who was there, would he have been shot?

MR MACI:   No I wouldn’t have shot him.

MR SHANE:   Because Sikelo was not a political enemy.

MACI:   Yes, he was not.

MR SHANE:   And the only reason that you shot him was because in your mind it was the police on the other end of the door?

MR MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   Now you say when the door opened you opened fire with your AK-47.

MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   Did you shoot through the door ...(intervention)

ADV GCABASHE:   Mr Shane, really I have great difficulty too with the leading questions you are asking. I’m sure, Mr Shane I haven’t finished. I’m sure the applicant, having given the instructions, can tell us in his own words exactly what happened. I don’t remember him saying the door opened at all. You are putting that to him and he can only say yes or no to you. Mr Shane we are not getting the story from him. You know that it is the process is we hear from the applicant. He’s quite capable of telling us the story himself.

MR SHANE:   Right, can you describe, after there was no response to you asking who was there, and you heard this rough kicking on the door, what did you do then? What actually happened then?

MR MACI:   I became ready as I realised that it was the enemy that was kicking the door, which is the police. Therefore I prepared myself to shoot and I did shoot, and he landed inside the house and that is when I noticed that it was Sikelo. My uncle rushed him to hospital with his car, so that he should not die, because it was a mistake, he was not an enemy. Unfortunately he died at the hospital.

MR SHANE:   Can you remember how many bullets you fired?

MR MACI:   It was only bullet.

MR SHANE:   Is it also true that you assisted with his funeral?

CHAIRPERSON:   What has that got to do with the price of eggs Mr Shane? Are you trying to prove the man was not guilty?

MR SHANE:   No Mr Chairman that doesn’t prove he’s not guilty, it’s just he’s given ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON:   ...(inaudible)

MR SHANE:   Mr Chairman I’m just leading him on these factors. This is just a factor that I was just leading him after the incident. It’s just something that he’s saying. It’s got nothing to do with the killing as such. He said he killed the person by mistake and he’s given the circumstances. Quite clearly I’m trying to show that this was a political, it was a political act on his part, notwithstanding the fact that it was clearly a mistake.

CHAIRPERSON:   Mr Shane I want to ask you not to clutter up the record unnecessarily, and lead your witness the way he should be led on the relevant issues. We are not concerned about his financial contribution to the funeral.

MR SHANE:   Right, that is, there’s nothing further that you can say about the death of Sikelo Nyekane. Is that correct?

MR MACI:   Our families came together and arrangements were made and everything was organised for his funeral in Transkei.

MR SHANE:   Besides that, there’s nothing about what we’re talking. The Commission is not interested in what happened regarding the funeral. They just want to know the details of his death. You’ve told everything about his death.

MR MACI:   Yes I’ve said everything I wanted to say.

ADV GCABASHE:   Was Sikelo an SDU member?

MR MACI:   We were staying together at my home.

ADV GCABASHE:   So he was coming home actually, because he lived with you in that house?

MR MACI:   That is correct.

MR SIBANYONI:   How were you related to him?

MR MACI:   They were renting on our premises and we all came from the Transkei.

MR SHANE:   Now is it also correct you were involved in the killing of another two males?

MACI:   That is correct, sir.

MR SHANE:   Can you give a description of what happened there?

CHAIRPERSON:   Before you carry on, when did the killing of Sikelo take place?

MR MACI:   If my memory serves me well I think it was late 1993 or January 94.

CHAIRPERSON:   You don’t know when you shot your friend, who was not an enemy?

MR MACI:   Truly speaking I cannot remember the date.

CHAIRPERSON:   You estimate it in what year?

MR MACI:   I think it was January 1994 but I cannot remember the date.

CHAIRPERSON:   Yes proceed.

MR SIBANYONI:   What time of the day was it when the incident happened?

MR MACI:   I do not want to lie.

CHAIRPERSON:   Well was it in the morning, afternoon, night, midnight, whatever?

MR MACI:   It think it was past eight or past nine in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SHANE: Right, you were involved in the killing of another two people, males, correct?

MR MACI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Can you give a description of what happened there?

MR MACI: I will talk about Mtolo first, Mtolo. There was a general meeting that was held at Mpumelela School in Makula Section. Mtolo had fled from Polla Park because he was the cause of the fights between the SDU's themselves who were shooting one another and Mtolo fled to Katlehong at Makula Section.

&#9;We got the message that Mtolo was not a good person because he was also working with the police. He was supposed to be killed. Secondly ...

MR SHANE: Right, when you say he was supposed to be killed, did you get orders?

MR MACI: Yes, we were given orders.

MR SHANE: By who?

MR MACI: Our Commander, Bruce, told us to go and shoot him, it was myself, Max and Thabiso Mapige. I was armed with a pistol.

&#9;The two of them were armed with AK47 rifles. We met with him at a passage. I fired the first shot, they followed with their AK47 rifles, I gave them a chance to shoot him with their AK47 rifles, and I was the one who shot first. He died. We left him there.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you shot him?

MR MACI: We found him at Makula Section, there was a passage. We found him there after we were looking for him at a certain place where he was residing. We met him at the passage and we killed him.

MR SHANE: Right. You were also involved in the killing of another person, can you give a description of that?

MR MACI: We shot Mr Ntshingila, Mr Ntshingila, after having received information from a gentleman who was staying at a house where we had put our firearms. We heard that Mr Ntshingila had told the police that we had hidden the guns in this gentleman's place and this gentleman was an inyanga, a healer, and he was well known even in the white community and they told him who gave them this information.

&#9;An urgent meeting was convened at school and the issue of Ntshingila as an informant was discussed, and he was also a shop owner at Kwesine Hostel that was occupied by IFP members and the people from the townships would not go to that hostel.

&#9;Mr Ntshingila was called to the meeting at the school and the community was there, people from our community. When he arrived there and when he was being questioned, he made some utterances that were showing that he was undermining everybody and he even mentioned that no one was going to touch him, he was going to bring the people from the IFP organisation to come and attack the Makula Section.

&#9;The community was very angry and the community was forced to drive Mr Ntshingila to his place. The people from the community decided to cut their telephone wires and I was the first one to shoot him. Sol Bongani Madirabe shot him with a pump gun and another gentleman who is in kwaZulu Natal, who is in Newcastle, his name was Gorgothi, I cannot remember his real name, he was armed with an AK47 rifle, he also shot at him and he died. He died at his house.

ADV GCABASHE: Just go over that for me very briefly. He came to the meeting and was difficult at the meeting. Then he left the meeting and you followed him. Just from that point, where exactly did you kill him?

MR MACI: When we left the meeting, he was in the company of the community, he was driven to his home. When we arrived there, the telephone wires were disconnected and we did as the Commander said.

ADV GCABASHE: So this was a community meeting, not a SDU meeting?

MR MACI: Yes, that is correct, it was a meeting of the community and all the SDU members.

ADV GCABASHE: All of the people who were at that meeting, observed the execution of Mr Ntshingila?

MR MACI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Right, now at this community meeting you said the community said certain things to the deceased. Members of the community spoke to the deceased at this meeting?

MR MACI: As he was called to the meeting, the intention was to question him as to why he was giving information to the police concerning the arms. He told the community that he was sick and tired of that in Makula community and he was about to bring the IFP members to come and attack the Makula Section. That is why he was killed.

MR SHANE: So from what you are saying, he actually threatened the community at the meeting?

MR MACI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: Can you give the names of the other people that also were involved in his killing?

MR MACI: Members of the community, all of them were there. The people who shot at him, it was myself and Solomon and this other gentleman who is in Natal now. His nickname was Gorgothi.

MR SHANE: You were the one who shot first, is that right?

MR MACI: Yes, that is correct.

MR SHANE: How many bullets did you fire?

MR MACI: I cannot remember but I was using my pistol.

MR SHANE: What happened afterwards with all the weapons that you had, what became of them?

MR MACI: The weapons, I went to Malusko for police training and the weapons were left with the community members, and when I came back, I was told that those weapons were taken to the police station as they were instructed to do so.

MR SHANE: That is evidence, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SHANE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have any further questions, thank you sir.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I don't have questions for the applicant.

MR SHANE: I have no more applicants, Mr Chairman. May I be excused please?

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Is that it for today or ...

MR SHANE: That is it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Shane, we just wanted to deal with one aspect before you go, Sicelo, in terms of your client's testimony, was killed accidentally. How does that event fall into the Act?

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, as he testified, he only realised it was an accident after the event, in other words, when there was that knock on the door, and he described the type of knocking, it was a rough kind of kicking, that is what he described, he also asked who it was when there was this knock on the door.

&#9;There was no answer. We also heard that he had recently been released from detention without trial. In his mind, this was the police, the ISU coming to arrest him to detain him, as he said. Quite clearly they were the enemy, he had his weapon, his AK47. In order to avoid giving these "police", though they weren't the police, but he shot. It is clearly I submit with respect, a political act on his part. 

&#9;Notwithstanding the fact that it was an accident. I hope that answers your question Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: If that is your view, deal with the following, that the Act gives particular guidelines in Section 20(3) where one has to consider the factual position and how it really improves the political situation of the party on whose behalf a person, the applicant, acted.

&#9;Now, how did the killing of Sicelo improve the political position of the party on whose behalf your client acted that day? Never mind intention, what is the factual position?

MR SHANE: The factual position with respect is it didn't improve any political position. I am not going to argue that it did, because it didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Now bearing that in mind, how does it fall within the ambit of the Act? First of all it can't be murder, he had no intention to murder Sicelo, not so?

MR SHANE: No intention to murder.

CHAIRPERSON: In the criminal court, what would it be?

MR SHANE: It would be negligent killing boiling down to culpable homicide.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand the Act, it makes provision for the commission of crimes with the intention of improving a political position, not so?

&#9;Does the Act make provision for accidents?

MR SHANE: First of all Mr Chairman, dealing with intention, I submit that intention is quite significant here because his intention when he fired the shot, was to kill the police, or to shoot the police, and that in itself, improves the political position that you were talking about.

&#9;I would submit that the Act does not exclude mistakes or negligence.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you say that?

MR SHANE: Well Mr Chairman, in this case, one would ask is all the negligence on the part of the applicant, remember as he said, had the deceased answered to his name when he was asked, there was no answer, but had he answered his name before he opened the door, had he answered his name, this incident would not have happened at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. If he thought it was the police outside banging as he was asked to describe so graphically, why didn't he shoot through the door?

MR SHANE: I can't answer that Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I ask that question in view of your argument, because you make out a particular argument. It follows then as I understand your argument, that if he really thought it was the police and he wanted to get away or whatever reason he shot, he should have shot through the door.

MR SHANE: Well Mr Chairman, it is significant that even though it is a bit hazy as to how he shot, the fact is when he shot, he did not know, when he shot, he did not know it was Sicelo, in his mind it was the police he was shooting at. It was only after Sicelo fell, that he realised the mistake.

&#9;That is clear Mr Chairman, it was a mistake, but before the mistake was made, when he pulled the trigger, at that crucial time he pulled the trigger, in his mind, he was shooting at the police.

CHAIRPERSON: How does that help him? Let's assume that we accept that that was what his mind set was at that time, how does it help him? You've got to help us here, we are in a (indistinct).

MR SHANE: Mr Chairman, I will submit at the end of the day, it must be his intention. It was his intention to shoot the police.

&#9;Everything, all the surrounding circumstances indicated to him that this is the police that is behind the door. There was no answer to his request for the person to identify himself, there was no response.

&#9;The way that the door was knocked on, indicated to him this was the police. After there was no response, when he saw the door opening, he fired a shot through the door. That is as I understood his testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Significantly that door opened and then he shot?

MR SHANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He didn't shoot through the door. He shot at the door once the door was opened, that is what happened?

MR SHANE: Well Mr Chairman, that is my argument, I can't take it any further.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 

MR SHANE: Excuse me Mr Chairman, I must bring to your attention my client informs me that as far as he is concerned, he says he shot through the door. That was what he says and he says this might have been misinterpreted.

&#9;I can't take that further, I don't know what the interpretation is. I don't know if it can be replayed, but I will say this as well Mr Chairman, my instructions in fact were, but I heard what you heard Mr Chairman, it certainly didn't come through in the interpretation that he shot through the door.

&#9;That is certainly not the impression that I got from the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: What was interpreted, as soon as the door opened, he shot him?

MR SHANE: Yes, Mr Chairman, that is how I got it as well. I am told by my client that that is not what he said.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Steenkamp, is it possible for you and Mr Shane to listen to the tape recording and agree on what was actually said and whether the interpretation was correct or not?

ADV STEENKAMP: I will do that Mr Chairman.

MR SHANE: I can't assist, I don't understand the interpretation.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the new interpretation?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, that is not my interpretation at all.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the new interpretation, because what was interpreted, words to the effect that as soon as the door opened, I shot him?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I spoke to the Interpreter herself, and according to her, that was what was interpreted. It was interpreted that while kicking, he was shot. There was, the applicant shot at the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it possible for us to hear those tapes?

ADV STEENKAMP: It is possible Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Then let's hear it.

ADV STEENKAMP: Unfortunately, I cannot understand Zulu, but that is what was told to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's hear it. I've got a colleague here who can see if it was interpreted properly.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, that specific section is available. 

CHAIRPERSON: We would like to hear it over here. We listened to the tape recording and we are in total agreement that what was said there was that as soon as the door opened, I shot him.

&#9;It wasn't a question of shooting through the door. Mr Steenkamp, I don't know about your latest request, because I have already excused the applicant. I think in his favour, I don't think it is fair to put him at risk after he has been excused. Mr Shane, I understand that you know what the latest developments are, about a new witness?

MR SHANE: I was briefly told by Mr Steenkamp sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I am not going to allow that. You can explain to your client please. What is next. Your client is excused.

MR SHANE: You also did excuse me sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, that will be the roll for today.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So we've got seven left?

ADV STEENKAMP: (Microphone not on) One of the matters Mr Chairman, was actually removed from the roll, there is actually six matters for tomorrow.

&#9;That is including Mr Selepe, will be seven, you are absolutely correct.

CHAIRPERSON: I want to finish that lot tomorrow.

ADV STEENKAMP: I have informed the attorneys already Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn till tomorrow nine o'clock.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

