=====================================================================
&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
=====================================================================
 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

 

DATE:&#9;&#9;26.09.1996 NAME: MOSEMANE PETRUS MATHIBA

CASE: 01561&#9;&#9; KLERKSDORP

DAY 4

_________________________________________________________

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathiba, good afternoon.

MR MATHIBA: I greet you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: You have come with a lady who is sitting next to you. Can you please introduce her to us?

MR MATHIBA: That is the person who knows exactly of what has happened.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is she? Can you introduce us?

MR MATHIBA: Her name Magriet Mathiba, so she is also Mathiba. She is my eldest brother's daughter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathiba, can I just clarify before we get into your statement. Who made the statement, did you make the statement or did Ms Mathiba make the statement?

MR MATHIBA: Mrs Mathiba is the one who has made the statement. So she is the one who was there at that time and seen what happened. She was there. So I will explain later.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathiba, I am not trying to be difficult, please, but it is very important as to who has made the statement. Did you make this, because we have your name on the statement, we don't have her name on the statement at all. Did you make the statement to our statement-taker?

MR MATHIBA: Yes, I made the statement and from what I heard from Mrs Mathiba. She has asked me to talk.

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;2&#9;M P MATHIBA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, I think that clarifies it. Mr Mathiba, we are - you are now living in Tigane, but we are going to talk about what happened on a farm called Doornkop farm. Before I ask Mr Tom Manthata who is going to be helping you in telling your story, will you please stand to take the oath?

MOSEMANE PETRUS MATHIBA: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mathiba.

MR MANTHATA: We thank you, Mr Mathiba and the mother who is there next to you? Is it Mathiba?

MR MATHIBA: Mathiba, that is Mathiba, Sir.

MR MANTHATA: Can you tell us exactly about who you are, as we want to know.

MR MATHIBA: I am the uncle. The father to the deceased has died, so I am left with the mother. The mother of the person whom we have come here for, to ask the Commission to help us to find him.

MR MANTHATA: What are you doing, what work do you do?

MR MATHIBA: I was working before, I was the driver Kalibihasi Hospital. I am on pension now.

MR MANTHATA: It is true that you do not have a lot of information but the little information you have will help us a lot. What do you know?

MR MATHIBA: In May 1974 when I arrived at home I was told that Magaret left with Jan Drom. They went to the hospital.

Jan Drom drove her with the car. They were together with Margaret and they signed at Sebong. Jan Drom was there. We didn't see him thereafter, since the last day at the hospital. When I went back home they were sitting crying and I asked them as to what was happening. They said the child has been taken to Sebong Hospital by Jan Drom and 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;3&#9;M P MATHIBA

Margaret was in their company. We didn't hear anything thereafter and we didn't know his whereabouts since that day. We hoped that Jan Drom will tell us the whole truth, because he was the person in charge of the farm. Even today we are still shocked. We do not know whether the child is still alive, whether the child is dead. Nobody knows. When I asked them they would say he is in one of the hospitals. They do not tell us which hospital. We remained in that belief that he is alive, he is in one of the hospitals, but we do not know which one. We are here to request the Commission to force this rich man Jan Drom to tell us what happened to our child, because he was last seen with him when he took him to the hospital in Margaret's company. That is where I will end. 

&#9;I have the identity document, it was picked up by David Matiba. This identity document was found in a rubbish bin, it was supposed to be burnt to ashes. Now this domestic worker picked up this identity document and she gave it to David. David gave it to the deceased's mother. She confirmed that it was the deceased's identity document. We sill have the identity document. I have it with me.

MR MANTHATA: Who is David?

MR MATHIBA: David is my sister's child.

MR MANTHATA: Was he working at the farm?

MR MATHIBA: Even today he is working at the farm. He is still working at the farm belonging to Jan Drom.

MR MANTHATA: What is this domestic worker's name?

MR MATHIBA: It is Lebohang Johannes.

MR MANTHATA: Didn't David go to the hospital to see the patient?

MR MATHIBA: Margaret has the information, but she didn't go KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;4&#9;M P MATHIBA

to the hospital. Because she was a very energetic woman and she was working day in and day out, and she would work from morning till noon. 

MR MANTHATA: Now this David and the domestic worker, didn't they tell you that Drom had been to the hospital maybe?

MR MATHIBA: No.

MR MANTHATA: Do you have hope that Drom might share a little information as to what happened to him?

MR MATHIBA: We do not know, because he doesn't speak to people. But we hope that he will give us a piece of information. He transported him with his van to Sebong Hospital. He should just tell us what happened to our child.

MR MANTHATA: Don't you think that he just dropped him at the hospital on that day and he has never been to the hospital since that day?

MR MATHIBA: No, we don't think so.

MR MANTHATA: How many hospitals have you been to, searching for this boy?

MR MATHIBA: We have been to Sebong Hospital. Because I am a driver, at times I would go to Johannesburg and when I have time I will go to Johannesburg Hospital or General Hospital to search for him. Margaret told me that she even tried to go to different hospitals to trace him. 

MR MANTHATA: Haven't you been to the police with his identity document so that they can help you with the investigations, because seemingly they have his fingerprints?

MR MATHIBA: No, we haven't been to the police.

MR MANTHATA: What about the identity document photo, don't you think that would be of assistance?

MR MATHIBA: No, I don't think so. We didn't go to the 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;5&#9;M P MATHIBA

police, we didn't even give them our identity document, because we thought that the farmer will give us the right information.

MR MANTHATA: Do you think that it will be a waste of time to go to Drom?

MR MATHIBA: Because we can go to Drom and he would give us the same answer. He would say no, I just transported him to the hospital. You know, it is a different case. He didn't die in Drom's hands. We don't have evidence of that.

MR MANTHATA: How old was this child?

MR MATHIBA: I can't remember, he was very young.

MR MANTHATA: Was he the only son at home?

MR MATHIBA: No, he has got brothers at the farm.

MR MANTHATA: Isn't there a way to investigate this matter, can't they approach the domestic workers, can't they investigate from Drom himself as to what happened?

MR MATHIBA: Not even one of them is in a position to investigate this matter further because they are so scared of Drom.

MR MANTHATA: Do you know Drom's farm?

MR MATHIBA: Yes, it is called Doornkop and there is another one Driefontein.

MR MANTHATA: He has two farms, hey?

MR MATHIBA: Yes.

MR MANTHATA: Please do give us Drom's address and the names of his two farms so that we can investigate. I want to thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Fazel Randera?

DR RANDERA: Mr Mathiba, sorry, I just want to clarify a few things again for our records. In the statement first of all you talk about October 1978. But I thought I heard you say 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;6&#9;M P MATHIBA

that the incident took place in May 1974? Which is the right date?

MR MATHIBA: The date I got from the person who was working there, that it was in which year. Because he was not there. When his mother sent me to make a statement, she came yesterday to tell me the truth that, because he was with the White person that day.

DR RANDERA: May 1974, is that right?

MR MATHIBA: Yes, it is true.

DR RANDERA: Now you yourself, you were not working on the farm. Right?

MR MATHIBA: Yes, I was not working on that farm, but the person who was working on that farm is Margaret and the brother. They grew up on that farm.

DR RANDERA: Margaret is the mother of the child who has disappeared?

MR MATHIBA: That's true.

DR RANDERA: We will take a full statement from Margaret afterwards. Now I also heard you say that Margaret went with Mr Drom to the hospital.

MR MATHIBA: Yes, that's true.

DR RANDERA: Margaret was there. What was the name of this child? Let us give this child a name, because we keep talking about the child, what is the name of the child?

MR MATHIBA: He is Johannes.

DR RANDERA: Sorry, Johannes, right. Margaret was there when Johannes was taken to Sebong Hospital.

MR MATHIBA: Yes, she was there.

DR RANDERA: And as I understand from the statement, Johannes had got injured by the plough. Is that right?

MR MATHIBA: Yes, that's true. He was work, he was injured 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;7&#9;M P MATHIBA

by the plough.

DR RANDERA: Do you know what the injuries were?

MR MATHIBA: No, nobody knows, because he was the one who was saying that, then he was wrapped so that Margaret couldn't see exactly what kind of injury was that.

DR RANDERA: How long did Margaret stay with Johannes at Sepong Hospital?

MR MATHIBA: She just went regularly to check. Margaret was just going to check him in the hospital. She was not able to go later because she was working on the farm.

DR RANDERA: (Speaker's mike not on).

MR MATHIBA: Every day she was working, she said.

DR RANDERA: Okay, after how many days did she discover that Johannes was not in the hospital any longer?

MR MATHIBA: What she told me, she said that when she went to the hospital, she couldn't see him. She told me that they were hampering that she should see him, and I couldn't find the reason why she was impinged to see her, because she is the person who can tell exactly why she was impinged to see him.

DR RANDERA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathiba, we have listened to the evidence that you gave and you have told us earlier that all that you really did was to come and tell the Commission in your statemet what you heard from the mother of Johannes. She is here now. She is in fact sitting right next to you. So it appears to make much more sense for us to hear directly from her what happened, when last she saw Johannes so that we have a clear picture and so that we know how to go ahead with this matter. So I am going to ask Dr Randera to swear Margaret in and then we will listen to her evidence. Okay?

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;8&#9;M P MATHIBA

MRS MATHIBA: Yes, Sir.

DR RANDERA: Mrs Mathiba, will you please stand.

MARGARET MATHIBA: (Duly sworn, states).

DR RANDERA: Mrs Mathiba, we are allowing you to speak now on the understanding that after you have spoken, you will give a statement to our statement-takers. Is that okay?

MRS MATHIBA: Yes, Sir.

DR RANDERA: Mrs Mathiba, tell us first of all where are you working now?

MRS MATHIBA: I am working at Randfontein this present moment.

DR RANDERA: How many children do you have?

MRS MATHIBA: I have two children.

DR RANDERA: Is that two children, including Johannes or excluding Johannes?

MRS MATHIBA: Can you repeat your question, Sir?

DR RANDERA: Do the two children that you are talking about, are they with Johannes or without Johannes?

MRS MATHIBA: No, Johannes is their brother.

DR RANDERA: Okay. Now let us go back to May 1974 on the farm Doornkop. You were there at the time.

MRS MATHIBA: Yes, I was present when he was injured. He was in the field working when he was injured. They were busy with the tractor and he fell from the tractor. I was already at home and my mother came in from the farm and she said to me listen here, Johannes is injured, and during that time he was already taken by Jan Drom. He took him to Tigane at the doctor and I ran after them to wait for me. When I told him to wait, to stop the car so that I could go with them, he did stop the car. When I looked at this child in the van, he was so injured and he had a bit of soil on his face. He 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;9&#9;M P MATHIBA

as still talking, but his two legs were not working at all, they were motionless. We arrived at Tigane and the doctor came to the van to look at the child. He said to Jan Drom take him to the hospital. We immediately drove off to the hospital. When we arrived at the hospital he was put on a stretcher. I was following them. Jan Drom was together with us. They took his particulars and I took his shoes off and we went to see the bed where he was going to lie. The two of us signed. Because I didn't know how to sign, I just wrote my name. Jan Drom signed. We came back then.

&#9;I didn't even take two days to go and visit him. The next day I went back to the hospital to pay him a visit. On my arrival it came to my understanding that he was not yet attended to. Then I stayed three days at home. Another child on the farm also got ill. Jan Drom himself took the child to the hospital. When he was taking this child to the hospital I said I am driving with you. On my arrival in the hospital I said to them listen here, I am not here to accompany them, I want to see Johannes. That is where I realised that something was wrong. Because we went to see Johannes and he was already attended, because he had something on his neck. We stood by his bedside and the nurses didn't allow me to look at his feet.&#9;

&#9;After a week I went back to the hospital to visit him. I was told that he was not in the hospital. I wanted them to give me an answer as to where he was. They said no, he had been sent, he has been transferred to Baraghwanath. I asked them when, because I was here; why did you transfer him to Baraghwanath without informing the family. They didn't have an answer. I said to them call the hospital, enquire from the hospital about his health. When they were supposed to 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;10&#9;M P MATHIBA

give Baraghwanath a call they didn't. I went back home. Their grandfather died in that week. The child was still in hospital, according to the information that we were given. Our grandfather passed away on another farm, he was staying there. We went to mourn. As we were mourning a messenger came and said he was sent by Jan Drom to tell us that the child has passed away, and he was already buried. The question that I asked, was the minister of religion was event sent at home. When we moved from the grandfather's place, we went home. On our arrival the minister of religion was there to bring condolences from Jan Drom. I personally enquired from the minister, minister, you are here to give us condolences, who buried the child.

DR RANDERA: I am going to stop you there. You have clarified to us and the fuller statement now will be taken by our statement-takers as to what happened to Johannes. I am going to stop there. Thank you very much, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Dr Randera. Are there any questions? Thank you. Mr and Mrs Mathiba, thank you for coming. We have received some clarification about your matter. We will take the full statement from Mrs Mathiba and we will then follow up and look into the matter and we will then be in touch with you about what we are able to find out. Thank you for coming. Thank you.

 

&#9;-------------

 

 

 

 

 

KLERKSDORP HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

