&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;UWC HEARING - DAY 3 - WEDNESDAY 7 AUGUST 1996

 

CASE NO:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;CT/00776

VICTIM:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;ZUBEIDA JAFFER

NATURE OF VIOLENCE:&#9;&#9;DETENTION AND TORTURE BY POLICE

TESTIMONY FROM:&#9;&#9;ZUBEIDA JAFFER

 

ZUBEIDA JAFFER&#9;&#9;&#9;Duly sworn states.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, please be seated.Glenda Wildschut will assist you and facilitate your evidence and I am going to ask her to take over, thank you.

MS WILDSCHUT:Morning Zubeida, thank you very much for coming, we know that it is not very easy to tell your story in such a public forum but we know that there are many people out there who are supportive of you today and we hope that we will afford you the opportunity as the TRC to listen very carefully and attentively to what you have to tell us.Would you start off by telling us just a little bit about yourself, what you are doing presently and then you are free to go into telling us your story, thanks. --- Thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to speak.Am I near enough to the mic.

&#9;Can you just go closer, I think we need some more amplification for the audience. --- Thank you very much for allowing me this opportunity to speak, I want to thank the TRC -I - from the role call that was read out this morning, I thought I was going to be speaking much later, so I must say I am a little bit thrown now, because it's been - it's a little bit unexpected so I hope you'll bear with me.But I'll try and you know collect my thoughts.It's a rather long story and I am going to try to go through it.I want to start by saying that I am very aware that this is just one - you know - one little story compared to so many other woman that have gone through so many things in the Western Cape and nationally.So it I tell the story, I am telling this to illustrate what has happened to so many other woman.I am presently a journalist, I have been a journalist for all my professional life and I am working, I have just started working at the Daily News in Durban.But I'll be based here in Cape Town, so that's my present position.My experiences started in 1980 as a young journalist at the Cape Times.I had just qualified at Rhodes University when I started my job as a reporter and during that time if some of you will recall there was a great deal of unrest in the Western Cape and there was the schools boycott, the bus strikes, and the meat boycott at that time.And at a certain point, in fact we've just heard Agnes Gounden speak this morning, it was around about the 16th or the 17th of June 1980 when the police killed scores of people on the Cape Flats, in Elsies River, Lavender Hill, Bishop Lavis and Agnes was - and her family, Ms Jardine who is in the audience I believe, were of the families that I was sent out to interview.Now the police at that time, a Major Verster, had told the Editor of the Cape Times that they will not give information to the newspapers about the killings.And we didn't really know what to do because we were aware that many people were shot and many people were killed and we were not able to get the information.My Editor at that time called me in and said look we've got this problem would you be prepared to go out and try and find these families and that's what I did for two weeks, walked through the Cape Flats, Bishop Lavis, Elsies River, Lavender Hill and these were the stories I heard and the story that you heard this morning, but I heard it you know ten times over, twenty times over, thirty times over and by the end of that, I was completely affected and was asked to write the whole story which I did.And it was an expose of the police killings at that time and most of the people that were killed were women.That was a particular feature of the event, now very shortly after that, what we did the newspaper readers started a fund for the victims and we started bringing these families together and at the hall in Elsies River at SHAWCO and to see how these families can be helped and supported.And three days after we had this meeting, it was two weeks after I - we had published the story, I was detained by Spyker van Wyk.They came to my house early in the morning, my dad woke me up I had just come from night shift, working at the Cape Times, I'd come home at two, they pick me up at five and they didn't give any reasons for my detention, they - they simply said that they wanted to take me off for a week and when I asked where they were taking me, whether they were taking me to Pollsmoor Prison and then Spyker van Wyk said to me as we were going out of my mom's house, he said to me you know you going, you know Pollsmoor Prison is a five star hotel compared to where you going.And then he said that they were going to break my nose and they were going to beat me up and that was as I walked out of the - out of the house, out of my parents house.I had absolutely no idea, absolutely no sense of what was going to happen to me and as the days went on I was to see what he - what he meant because they started interrogating me virtually immediately and it went on for a good few days and basically they wanted to know about mylife.They wanted to know anybody that I knew that was vaguely political, they wanted to - eventually I got to understand that they wanted to get me to the point where I could admit that I was a member of the ANC and also that I could implicate other people.And so the whole - the whole approach that they used was to surround me by all - with all these men and you know constantly interrogate me for hours on end and at night when I thought I would be allowed to rest and sleep they would keep me awake.And this went on for two days and then they - they drove me up to Port Elizabeth, the Sanlam Centre - took me to the Sanlam Centre and when we got there, I thought now they going to let me sleep because I haven't slept since I've been detained and this was the Thursday and I thought by now I'd get an opportunity to sleep, but that didn't happen.They started another team of people came in and they started interrogating me again and by this stage I was getting completely affected I couldn't - I couldn't think any more and by the - and during this period they didn't give me - they didn't really give me food, they gave me coffee and dry bread.And suddenly on the Friday you know they would be - difficult to explain this, I don't know if you've seen these movies where people are interrogated, it's actually like that where you sitting in a chair and you being surrounded by men and they question you all the time and they would - they would take breaks and they would go off, but they'd sent in another team.So I was sitting there all the time and I was being subjected to this constantly and when they left me, they would - they put two people in charge of me to make sure that I didn't close my eyes.Because the whole thing was that I must not be allowed to sleep so that I could loose complete sense of what was going on around me, which was happening, I was beginning to feel very strange in my head, I was beginning to feel very fuzzy.By the Friday afternoon they suddenly stopped their interrogations and asked me if I wanted some food and I was very relieved and they came and brought me some curry and rice and some tea and I ate that and then a little bit after that, this Captain Du Plessis was in charge of the interrogation, he kept on saying to me your heart is going to give in, your heart is going to in, you haven't slept for three days, you haven't slept for three days, are you a member of the ANC, you know, tell us who you know - give us one name of one person that you know.And at a certain point I started thinking you know do I know one person that I can tell them because I was really getting beyond myself.I was really so frantic, and then at a certain point he took me to the - we were on the 6th floor of the Sanlam Centre, he took me to the window and he said that he would throw me down there, because that's where they - where they kill people.And the interrogation went on and I was standing in the middle of this room when he went to the phone and he went to speak to a Captain Oosthuizen in Grahamstown and they started discussing the story that I had written in the Cape Times and they - they said - they were discussing it and he was getting very-very angry and he said yes, it was - it had appeared in the Eastern Cape Herald as well.Because the Cape Times story had appeared in the Eastern Cape Herald.And I heard him say you know it's all lies, they just want to tell lies about the police, these newspaper people.And the next thing he came back and he beat me right across the room into the - into the wall and he kept on beating me right into the wall and I felt - I felt myself just going down and he said, so -such lies, why will the police want to kill anybody if they were innocent, these were gangsters, there were thieves, these were robbers, and it was all lies that you wrote about.And I just found myself lying there on the floor and you know being completely - completely terrified.At that stage he - a man came in, and he said to the man, another policeman came in and he said to the man, just rape her, just rape her, and this man came up to me and he - and he - he didn't actually rape me, but he - the threat of it was - I felt that I was going to die at that point.And then he called him away and he said, leave her alone and they obviously were trying to get me completely to a point where I couldn't function any more.The tragedy of it was that I didn't really have the information that - that they - that I could of satisfied them with.And I tried, I must say that I understand how people give information in the situation like that, because I did my best to think what I could possibly tell them.Because it was just - it was just to awful.Then he left and he left me in this room - left me in this room with these two policeman and he said to them he said to me - he said to them they must watch me.And me made me stand in the middle of the room and I just had to stand there and then at some point they allowed me to sit and I was getting very - starting to get very hot and I was getting these pains across my chest.But I - I didn't really think then, I just felt I was getting really ill because I hadn't slept for the few days.And he said he was going to go away, but he was coming back again.And then I started seeing - I started seeing all my veins in my hand dilating.And in my arms, my veins in my hands and my arms and I - and I felt pains across my chest and suddenly I started feeling like me - all my insides were going to come out.And I said to them I am going to get sick, I am going to get sick, and the one guy ran with me to the toilet to take me to the toilet and the other guy ran to the phone and he said it's starting, now at that point I didn't think anything of it.I didn't have any idea I was just terrified but when I explained to the lawyer afterwards what had happened, I told the whole story to him, upon my released, he rushed me to the doctor because he said that - that I had obviously been drugged and that they were waiting to see what the reaction was going to be.And - but at that point I didn't know, I was just seeing all my veins dilating, it looked like worms- it looked like worms coming out of my hands.It was all standing up I thought my blood vessels were going to burst and I just felt this pains across my chest and I felt this complete - completely like I was you know - going to be very-very ill. Then Captain Du Plessis came back, the man must of phoned him and he said Zubeida you know - you know you - you never going to make it, you going to have a heart attack you going to die.And so we going to give you some paper and we want you to write your life story.And you'll spent the night writing your life story on this paper.And I took the paperand I sat there and I tried to write it was very difficult they wanted me to write which school I'd gone to, we I had been born, just everything.So I started doing that and then by that went on for the whole - I had to be awake then the whole night.They took a fan and they put the fan over my head and every time I wanted to sleep they said maak jou oë oop you know they would shout at me.And so they had strict instructions not to allow me to sleep.And so by the next morning I had written quite a long statement about my whole life, but I couldn't admit that I was a member of the ANC because I wasn't at that time a member of the ANC.And I also really didn't know anybody who was a member of the ANC.So I had written just about my life so when they came in the morning, the early hours of the morning - the - I can't remember the Captain who came with another Captain.He took the statement, he read the statement and he tore the statement up in front of me and he said this is just a lot of nonsense, they didn't want to know any of this and that I should start again and that I should really-really think about the people that influenced me politically and give them that information.By this stage I went, they took me back into the small little room, put me on the chair, gave me another - more paper and a pen and said I should write.And I sat there and I was unable to write, I was completely - completely unable to do anything.And they didn't also force me, they sat and watched me and then I must of slipped into unconsciousness because I was vaguely aware that they were there and I knew, I knew I landed on the floor, I was lying on the floor for many hours unconscious.And there was no way they could get anything from me that they could do anything, and so I just lay there.And so later that day - that was the Saturday morning, so this has been going on I'd been detained the Tuesday morning, so that whole stretch for that time and then on the - then in the afternoon they came and they carried me down to the car and drove me to Humansdorp just about I think an hour from Port Elizabeth.And for the first time I was able to lie down on - on a mattress -rather you know - it was just a tin prison mat in the cell, but for the first time I was able to - my body was able to you know rest.And I didn't wake up until the Sunday, I was completely out till the Sunday.Then a few days after they came to fetch me in the middle of the night.Back to Port Elizabeth, back to the Sanlam Centre.And they then started - this time Captain Oosthuizen, Captain Du Plessis were both there and Captain Oosthuizen wanted to know a name of a journalist at the Cape Times who published the story on the military.Now we knew the name of this journalist, he was Richard Wicksteed, many of us knew but they didn't know the name of the person and the Captain Du Plessis and the other Security policeman had prepared a statement for me to sign, which I don't really know what was in the statement, but I think I've gone through newspaper cuttings now and I see that it says in the statement that I had been shown some ANC literature by one of the students at Rhodes University where I was studying, Ian Ngigema.I thought I was signing a statement which said that I am member of the ANC, and I wasn't quite sure what I was signing.And - but they had prepared a statement for me and they were now wanting me to sign this statement and they wanted me to give them this additional information.They also wanted me to tell them if I had any books which I am not suppose to have, any banned books.And at that point I was completely terrified because I felt that the interrogation which I was subjected to earlier, was going to start again and I was never going to make it.And so - but I kept quite at that point, because I didn't really keep quite because I was sort of brave or because I felt oh! you not suppose to say anything.I just kept quite because I remembered somewhere along the line people said you not suppose to you know give information if you in that situation.And I tried my best not to do that, but I - it wasn't possible.Because at that point they must have realized that I am still, I am in this mood where I am not really giving them any information and they believed I had a lot of information, I was a journalist.And so they said to me they got a little surprise for me, and that they going to tell me soon what the surprise is.So I didn't know what they were going to do next and then they said that later in the morning after they continued questioning me, they said that Zubeida if you don't - if you don't co-operate with us and tell us - give us the answers, then we are going to detain your father.And I thought that they were just - you know they were just trying to trick me again or something, but then in the course of the morning they - they made a phone call and then they called me to the phone and they handed me the phone and it was my father on the phone.And they had detained him in Cape Town and they told me that I must tell him to give them my books and my student books, I must also - ja I must tell him and I told him, I said Dad just give them - give them whatever they want you know I was so, I was shattered at that point.I just felt that -you know it's fine if they involve me, it's okay, but why involve my family to this extend, and why involve my father.And so I told them and then after they put the phone down, I signed the statement and I told them the names of the journalist who had done the story, Richard Wicksteed.And the effect of all that was that it completely humiliated me, it completely made me feel like - like I was worthless that I - I had gone against everything that I stood for, that I believed in, that I though my profession stood for and that I'd been too weak to withstand the pressure of this and it really - it really - I was never able to overcome it for many-many years.I think I only really vaguely or slightly became to overcome it with my second detention and it was in 1985.Now by this stage I was - I was an activist, I decided to leave the Cape Times and my job because I couldn't function.I was terribly traumatized and very-very nervous all the time.And after I was released from detention I was charged, I was charged with possession of banned books, three banned books, I was acquitted.While I was facing these charges, when I use to get off the train in the morning to go to work, I use to have the police following me and this went on for months.I tried to get some help, I went to the lawyers, I said can we do something about this, can I make a case against the police, can I - can I stop them from going on with me, but I was - I was told to choose, either I did that and carry on getting pressure, if I decided to make a case, they - the lawyers advised me that they - that the pressure would increase.And - or if I just wanted to try survive at that point and I decided that I just wanted to service.The other option was to leave the country, many people me just leave the country, but I just felt that, that wasn't an option because here at home I had everybody around me, the community, the family and everybody and I thought if I should go into exile it would be much more difficult.So I decided instead to - to become a full time activist because - because of the experience that I went through.Because of the trauma of it all, I think there wasn't a day that went by that I couldn't keep it in my mind that we had to do something about bringing an end to the system.It was - it just totally consumed me, I couldn't think of anything else.After that experience in detention, I think that I saw it's almost like you can you were in the belly of the beast.You saw what it was all about and I suddenly realized that - that we've just got to - all of us we've got to do something about the situation you know.And I decided that I had to leave my job and become a full time activist and that's what I did.I became involved in various organizations mainly the clothing workers union at a certain point and it was as - as I was general secretary of that organization when the state of emergency was declared in 1985.And at that time many of us including my husband many of us decided to go into hiding, because we wanted to avoid being arrested again.Thousands of people were arrested, 30-thousand people were arrested.Many of us went into hiding and - but we tried to keep the union offices going you know during this time.And at that time there was a particular - a police officer who harassed many of us in the Western Cape.He was Captain Frans Mostert, well he was a lieutenant then, I believe he is a Captain now.And he - it was - he had a kind of personal vendetta I think against many of us I don't know why he - he saw it so personally.But he seemed to have this and he came to our offices in October of 1985.And I wasn't there I was in hiding at the time.And he spoke to Colleen Lombard who was our administrative secretary.He asked her if she knew about the Vigilante Action Group.And she of course didn't know and he said well you going to see what we going to do.And a week later the Vigilante Action Group burnt down the entire building and destroyed the offices, destroyed other projects that were in those offices, grassroots, the newspaper other union offices - completely destroyed offices, made it impossible for us to go work there again.We just had to watch it going up in flames.And this same captain Frans Mostert eventually arrested myself and my husband in December of 1985.And he - he was responsible for my interrogation.He wanted to know at that time, why a group of woman and here again it was a group of woman who had being caught at a factory in Athlone making ANC flags, they were making thousand of ANC flags in the factory.They couldn't tell him why they were making these flags and you know I - he felt that I could tell him.And I was in a position to tell him but I think this time around I was - I was much the wiser, and much more experienced than the first time.And I knew what I had - why I was there.I didn't -I didn't like the first time not know what was going on with me, I knew why I was there and that I didn't want to co-operate with them at all.So at that time he discovered that I was pregnant, I was pregnant with my daughter, I was two and a half months pregnant.And when he discovered that I was pregnant of course and as I thought he was going to do, he then proceeded to use this to put a lot of pressure on my.He said that he was going to put so much pressure on me that I would miscarry, that he was going to choke whatever information he wanted out of me and that he'd already assaulted two women at that time in which I knew about.He had assaulted June Essau, he'd assaulted Jaida Essau and - pretty badly and he was - he said he was going to do this to me.And that I was going to loose the baby and that I would never see my husband alive again.So when at a certain point he - he came to me and because I didn't want to co-operate I basically felt he stood for apartheid, I against it and I wasn't prepared to give him any information.I was very-very concerned about the women who had been arrested, making the flags because I felt that they were in a difficult position, they were - they had families and there was aunty Zubeida Harding from Bonteheuwel was aunty Miriam from Hanover Park, there were various women that were - Veronica Simmers, Elizabeth Erasmus, they were all in detention at that time.And so - it was a lot of pressure, but I just felt that I wasn't prepared to co-operate.And then at a certain point he came and he said that they - he knew exactly how he was going to get me to co-operate and that they had prepared - he prepared a chemical for me to drink to - to kill the baby and to - he was going to burn the baby from my body.Now this was - this was a real - this was a real threat to me because of the drug experience that I had during my first detention.And I knew that they could do it, I knew they were capable, I knew that they had drugged me the first time, and so I sat there in the cell not knowing what to do.And my one thought was to - to give them the information because I thought what could happen if I gave them the information.They would charge us all, they would put us on trial and we would be - we would serve a sentence.They would - we would serve a sentence for making ANC flags because then we were - to have an ANC flag was illegal.That was the one option for me, the other option was not to give the information and possibly loose my baby.Eventually I decided not to give them the information because I felt that I didn't want my child to grow up with that burden on her, because I felt that we she - she is not even brought into this world yet and if she is brought into this world, thinking that - that her mother gave this information so that she could live, that, that's a heavy burden for a child to carry.So I think that, that unborn baby inside of me, made it possible for me to be strong enough to tell them or not to give in to their threats.So - so eventually he didn't - I mean he didn't actually give me the chemical to drink, when I said I didn't want to give them any information, and I was a step passed him that there was nothing that he could really do.I am not sure - I just want to check if I've got anything else to say.

&#9;That's fine.--- I think there was - there were many things that happened subsequently to that, there were many cases where lieutenant Frans[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry Zubeida just a minute - can we get some order please and can I ask that if you want to leave, would you try and leave between the times that we call the witnesses and not during evidence.It's very difficult - acoustics are bad here so it's very difficult to follow the testimony under normal circumstances.But if there is a distraction it makes it so much more difficult, so please can I ask your co-operation, thank you.I am sorry Zubeida carry on please.

ZUBEIDA JAFFER: No I think I don't want to say anything further.

MS WILDSCHUT: Zubeida thank you for telling us your story, I wonder if you will allow us then just to ask you a few questions mainly questions of clarification.I just need to get some clarity about your experience of the food, in the beginning you talked - you tell us that you - the first time received a plate of curry and some coffee, and then later on you talked to us about having being drugged.How do you put the two together, can you just explain that to us please. --- Ja - ja well according to the - as I said I was totally ignorant of what was happening but according to the lawyer and the doctor that I saw afterwards they said that what must of happened was that they put the drugs into the food, because I hadn't been getting you know cooked food until then and then suddenly I did find it strange that they suddenly stopped and started talking to me very nicely and said wouldn't you like some food.And they gave me this food and they gave me this food and you know a few hours after I had this food I started getting this terrible you know symptoms.So I assumed and from what's been told to me I mean I - that's what happened and I don't know the doctor couldn't tell me because it was two months afterwards, I was held for two months.So he couldn't tell me what was the drug, but he - he was pretty from the way I described the symptoms that he spoke about that it was a drug, a kind of drug that they give alcoholics something similar, though he did give me the name at the time.But of course it was difficult it was speculation about what kind of drug could of been given.But I didn't know this, this was only - this was because I explained what had happened to me and because I - I think one that they suddenly gave me the food and secondly that this cop ran to the phone and he said it's starting.So they were expecting something to happen to me.Now according to my lawyer there were other sort of similar cases, that's why they could know immediately when I told the story what had happened.

&#9;Ja, thank you for that.Spyker van Wyk is a name that has come up very often in our hearings and in the testimony of other people and some of us have even had personal experiences and personal encounters with Spyker van Wyk.It seems from the stories that he was aparticularly brutal person and was particularly brutal in his methods of interrogation.When you were telling us about your experiences and your encounter with him it seems as though he was quite a polite person they way in which you explained, it sounded as though he was polite, was it really like that? --- Well if you can say him threatening to break my nose being polite I - no he wasn't polite.He - he wasn't particularly - he wasn't the one who swore at me constantly and - you know - there were - he was the one who came to arrest me and I didn't have much dealings with him until I came back to Cape Town.Basically what they did with him was to constantly threaten me that they would bring him and that he - I mean after all we know he killed Imam Haroon and they told me that, he is the man who killed Imam and he will deal with me if I wasn't going to co-operate with the others.And he would come in from time to time and glare at me you know that kind of thing.So I didn't have a lot of direct dealings with him because I was taken up to Port Elizabeth.

&#9;The sleep depravation that you had and the constant having to be awake and then to tell your story and so on.The long periods of detention and also subsequently when you indeed became an activist were then detained and so on, what - what impact on your health has all of this been? --- Well I think it's affected me very badly, it also affected my family.But it's affected me, I've struggled for many-many years to overcome it, I sometimes still feel I haven't overcome it.I think it will never ever go away, I pray everyday that it does go away.But you know for years I've had nightmares and I have really-really struggled to keep my head above the water.I know what other people are going through that have been subjected to this.I look around I see it on their faces.I know exactly what it is because it's like your whole body has been in shock, has been in a terrible shock you know and you can't really breath.You can't really - often you can't just think because it's so - it's so traumatic to just think about it.And I eventually, I thought I was normal after my 1980 detention, nobody spoke to me, nobody asked me, it's like most people of the years when they meet me they say oh! you know they know me, they've heard I was detained.Most people and this is across the color line, most people say to me, they'll smile at me and say oh! you - you the journalist, you were detained and that.Then they'll say to me but I am sure they never did anything to do you know, I just usually just look and I think what must I say youknow, what must I say.I think it's too - maybe it's to much for people to think that things.I think also because I am a woman I think there is always the assumption that you know they wouldn't of surely touched me you know, surely done anything, didn't really do anything to you did they.And what do you say when people say that to you.By 1988 I collapsed, I had a - I had what they call post traumatic stress syndrome and that was eight years afterwards and I only realized then, I personally only realized then that there was something wrong with me and that I was you know in a very bad state and that I was really just trying to cope and then it's taken me years from that point to rebuilt my life and I've been very fortunate because I've had lost of support, lots of family support, lots of community support.Support in all sorts of ways and it pains when I see that there is so many people out there who don't have that support you know and how must they - how must they get through this thing.If I can't get through this thing with all the support that I do have, so that - that I find very-very painful.

&#9;I just have one more question to direct at you before I hand over to my colleagues and that is coming before the Truth Commission is a very difficult decision to make.And then to talk about your story in public is very difficult indeed.May I ask you why it is that you came before the Commission today and what is it that you want to say to us at the Commission, and what is it that you would like us to - what are the things that you'd like us to respond to in your story? --- Well I - I must say that it wasn't an easy decision, I was fluctuating from day to day should I come, shouldn't I come and the reason not to come was I didn't, I thought it would be very difficult for me to talk about something so personal, I've never really done that before, I've never really spoken about it from A - Z and I thought it was just going to be too traumatic.But the reasons why I felt it was important to do it is that I felt that even though a lot of us don't feel that the Truth Commission is going to give us everything we want and we feel that - that there is severe limitations we - I think that this is a national process and we -we are trying to make a symbolic break with the past and I felt that I don't want to go into the future, into years to come and pass all this pain onto my daughter and to you know onto future generations.But I would like to feel that - that I've broken with that and that I can be freed in a sense to carry on with my life normally.And I hoped that this process would allow me to do that.And as far as what I would like the Commission to do, I mean I feel very strongly that these people who did these things, they should not be allowed to get away with it.And something should be done, especially those one who constantly harassed us, responsible for the deaths of some of our people, they cannot possible still hold these positions you know, authority.We need to know where they are and there is enough president for this, I mean if you look at any other situation - other countries you'll find - I am just thinking of the Dutch situation, if you look at that you'll see that they had perched boards, they looked at the police force, they looked at the civil service, they looked at these things.I know we've had a different kind of settlement here, but at the same time, I feel those at a particularly hardness, like Frans Mostert, I feel that they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.They should be confronted, and they should be demoted and that would be the least I mean.I would - I am sure that many of use would feel more should be done to them, but at least they should be - they should know that what they did was not right.We don't want them...

AUDIENCE ARE CLAPPING THEIR HANDS ON THAT REMARK

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you - thank you. --- We don't want a revenge, I don't think that is the point of it, but I think that quite frankly they - they just can't you know - it can't be that simple and just everybody is being patted on the back situation.And then I think you also asked what you want me - the Commission to do, that's the one thing and the other thing is that I feel that the Commission should make a special effort to make sure that those people who have given everything in their lives to - so that all of South Africa can be free, those people amongst us who are presently today, are still unemployed, are still not able to find their feet like we heard yesterday Yazir Henry, people like that, that and others, there are many others who still today haven't got work and can't - can't seem to get onto their feet, that there should be a special - special fund or a special unit established to make sure that these people get help.And that they not be just left to fend for themselves.

MS WILDSCHUT: Thank you very much Zubeida I, before I make some closing remarks, I'd like to hand over to my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Wendy Orr.

DR ORR: Zubeida when you were being held in Port Elizabeth in 1980 did you ever see a doctor? --- Yes.

&#9;Do - what was your impression of this doctor do you remember what his name was. --- Yes I do, he was Benjamin Tucker and he was terrified, he was as terrified as I was.I remember that he was the person, I think he was the person involved in the Biko-matter and he - he couldn't even really listen to me, it seemed like the cops who ...

&#9;I'd just like to remind the audience that yes Dr Benjamin Tucker was involved in the Steve Biko affair and in 1985 when the South African Medical and Dental Council finally launched an inquiry into his conduct, he was found guilty of negligent conduct and was struck off the role.So he shouldn't actually still have been there in 1980.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Wendy for that, Mary Burton.

MS BURTON: It's not exactly a question, and I hope I am not anticipating the things that Glenda will want to say.I think that you have given us a very clear insight into the effects of sleep depravation, into the kind of interrogation that you went through and you were very generous in your understanding of how people collapsed under interrogation, under that depravation and under the most frightening threats for a woman of danger to one's family and the people one loves and danger to an unborn child.So I think in a way you have given us a glimpse into a venerable side of you when you are a woman who is known as a strong person in the community.And that I think is very valuable for us that we have had that - that both sides of your character and of your story brought before us.So I think that's been very helpful for us.I think that question of what - of how even one's friend respond to the experience of detention was for me really struck accord.I remember feeling that one almost need and etiquette book about what you said to somebody if a member of that family was in detention or there they had come out of detention.There was no code for how you cope with that extremely unnatural situation which was so pervasive in our society at the time.You have really helped our understanding of that period very much.Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for that Mary, Glenda would you like to finish.

MS WILDSCHUT: Mary had indeed said some of the things that I would have like to have mentioned too, so I endorse what Mary had said, except to say that I really do want to thank you for coming.I have been aware that this has been a very difficult decision that you have made to come before the Commission and I really want to salute you for making the decision and for sharing with us that process that you went through.We feel very - we feel very honored that today we can salute the woman who have contributed to our struggle and I want to salute you.I feel that the choices that woman have to make during this struggle should never have been put before them.You shared with us the difficult choice that you had to make about the life of your unborn baby, and that of revealing the names of people who had been involved in a - in activity which really could not have threatened anybody.And you have shared that with us in a very poignant way.Thank you very much for coming before us, we have heard what you have said and we will certainly take very seriously the comments that you have made about perpetrators.We will certainly take very seriously the comments you have made about in some way getting involved with reparations and rehabilitation for people who have contributed and you've named some of those people and there are thousands and thousands of those who have not been named and perhaps will not come before the Commission.You have also reminded us that your story is a window into the stories of many other woman and for those unnamed and unrecognized woman thus far, we also want to pay tribute.Thank you very much Zubeida for coming.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

 

 

 

 

