&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 26.11.96&#9;&#9;NAME: MPHILO JERRY NTULI

CASE: TEMBISA

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MS SOOKA: I would like to call Mr Mphilo Ntuli to the witness stand please. There are two witnesses who are not coming today. The one will be coming tomorrow and this is our second-last witness for today. I would like to welcome you to the proceedings of the Commission, is that a family member that you have brought with you?

MR NTULI: It's a friend. 

MS SOOKA: We would like to welcome him too.

MPHILO JERRY NTULI: (sworn states) 

MS SOOKA: We have assigned a Commissioner to assist you with the leading of your evidence and we have asked Professor Meiring to help you with yours. I am going to hand over to him.

PROF MEIRING: Mr Ntuli thank you for coming to us today, and we do hope that you will find it a healing experience to be with us and to tell your story. May I ask you before I invite you to tell your story just to give us some information about yourself. You are 28 years old, is that correct?

MR NTULI: Yes Sir.

PROF MEIRING: Are you working at the moment?

MR NTULI: No I am not working.

PROF MEIRING: Did you go to school?

MR NTULI: No I left school.

PROF MEIRING: At which standard?

MR NTULI: I left school at standard six Sir.

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PROF MEIRING: Are you married?

MR NTULI: No.

PROF MEIRING: No children?

MR NTULI: No children.

PROF MEIRING: Living with your parents?

MR NTULI: Yes Sir.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you. Now we have a picture of Mr Ntuli. You want to tell us about a very horrible thing that happened to you nearly 12 years ago. On the 5th of November 1984 something happened that changed your whole life, please tell us about that.

MR NTULI: It was in 1984 on the 5th of November in Mashiming Section. I was visiting a friend. Unfortunately I never managed to get there because that's where I was injured on my way to visit my friend. There was a stayaway that was declared and people were marching. Then I decided to use a round-about way so that these people must pass, but at that instant Caspers emerged and they were chasing this group around. But I was just on my way to my friend's house and they were throwing teargas canisters as well and two White policemen approached me from the back. They said I must stop. When I tried to look back then they shot me at my leg and that's where I was hospitalised and amputated.

PROF MEIRING: What happened that day, the 5th of November, was there a commotion, was there many people in the streets, what happened that day that caused the police to come?

MR NTULI: There was a stayaway and a march if I can remember clearly.

PROF MEIRING: Were you very active in politics at that stage?

MR NTULI: No I was not active.

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PROF MEIRING: So it was quite at random that they shot you?

MR NTULI: They were just shooting randomly and thereafter they threw you in the back of the Police van.

PROF MEIRING: Were you the only one that was thrown into the Police van?

MR NTULI: It was a number of us, we might have been six or seven because thereafter there was a mass funeral here in Jan Livingstone Stadium and I saw in the newspaper whilst I was in the hospital that there was a mass funeral and that was the last I heard.

PROF MEIRING: You were shot in your leg just below the knee and then you said your leg had to be amputated, how long did you stay in the hospital?

MR NTULI: I stayed there for three months.

PROF MEIRING: And when you were released from the hospital what happened then?

MR NTULI: They brought me to Rabasoto that's where I stayed for five days, and then they released me and gave me a date when to appear in Germiston Court. When I got there I was never called, only my mother's name was called, but when she responded they told her that the matter has been dismissed and I was charged with public violence and that was the end of the matter.

PROF MEIRING: Initially charged with public violence, but the case was dismissed and you were allowed to go home, was that the end of the story? Were you left in peace then? Could you go on with your life?

MR NTULI: They never troubled me thereafter.

PROF MEIRING: But you still suffer from that incident?

MR NTULI: Yes because I have been using this walking stick

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since this injury in order to balance thoroughly because I still have irons implanted in my leg. I cannot balance, put much weight on my leg. I must use a walking stick. I sustained this injury a long time ago, it should have healed by now but I have to use a walking stick.

PROF MEIRING: And I was told that you used to be a very good football player, is that correct?

MR NTULI: Yes it is correct Sir.

PROF MEIRING: Do you find it difficult to work or are you able to work?

MR NTULI: I find it difficult to work, even just to move around. I get tired easily because time and again the pain will come and go, but I cannot move around for a long time.

PROF MEIRING: Don't you think it will be a good idea to get further education to help you with work that you are able to do in your condition?

MR NTULI: That I don't understand about that, going back to school.

PROF MEIRING: You wouldn't like to go back to school, even to a special school to be trained?

MR NTULI: I am not sure. At the moment I want to start my own business to sell vegetables and fruit. It would be quite difficult for me to go back to school.

PROF MEIRING: But I am glad to hear that you have plans for the future, you want to become a businessman. There is a last question I want to ask, did you ever make a claim against the police or against the SANDF for what happened to you?

MR NTULI: No, I never instituted a claim. There was a lawyer who approached me whilst I was in hospital by the name of Kabela Mothibe. He is the one who was handling my 

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matter, but he is no longer interested. I am not having any regular contact with him, he has just disappeared and I never followed up the matter myself.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you so much Mr Ntuli. I think I can finish here but I am sure some of my colleagues would like to add a number of questions. Thanks for coming.

MS MKHIZE: Maybe if you can remember clearly did these people say anything to you before they shot you?

MR NTULI: They never said anything. They approached me from behind. They were standing in a different yard. They just said I must stop and when I tried to turn around to see as to who was saying this to me they just shot at me and I fell. Having fallen a Black policemen beat me with the back of the firearm in my chest, and that was the end.

MS MKHIZE: I know it is quite difficult to take you back but it is quite important that we should get some clarity. When you said they had approached you from behind do you remember how many were there?

MR NTULI: There were two.

MS MKHIZE: Did you identify them?

MR NTULI: No. There were two policemen, Black and White. I know the Black policeman he was working here at the police station but I would be able to identify him when I see him. But the White policeman is the one who shot.

MS MKHIZE: As you were in hospital did anyone come and see you in hospital?

MR NTULI: Yes, the Black policeman did come because we were under police guard there in hospital. (tape ends.....)

MS MKHIZE: ...he asked you about instead of the game?

MR NTULI: No there was nothing else because we were so many that were guarded by the police and there was nothing 

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much we said to the police.

MS MKHIZE: Other than inviting you to play cards there is nothing that they asked you about your health?

MR NTULI: No. Mr Mnisi is the only one who came to me who was a policeman who was handling my matter who came to discuss with me and advised me that I must sue the State.

MS MKHIZE: You have mentioned that the way you have been amputated was not done properly and you think you need further treatment, have you done anything about it till today?

MR NTULI: No I did try and make some enquiry but they told me that they destroyed the documents relating to my amputation and they cannot help me.

MS SOOKA: Mr Ntuli, on that particular day can you tell me where you were going to and how many of you there were when you were shot?

MR NTULI: I was alone on my way to visit my friend Baseka who stays at Mashimu Street, that's where I got injured 500 metres from my friend's house.

MS SOOKA: Were you shot in the front of your leg or in the back of your leg?

MR NTULI: From the back.

MS SOOKA: You also mentioned that there was another person in the vehicle that took you to the hospital, is that correct?

MR NTULI: There were several people in the van, four to five. Everybody was screaming of pain. I don't remember how many were there but it was quite a number.

MS SOOKA: Also you spent five days in the cells of the police station here at Rabasoto is that right?

MR NTULI: Yes it is so. Yes they took me with a van, one 

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policeman whose name I don't remember, he was accompanied by a girlfriend in the police van. He was running about in the street and they dumped me at the charge office and that's where they locked me in.

MS SOOKA: At that time when you were shot were you doing anything which could have led them to believe that you were attacking them in any way?

MR NTULI: I was doing nothing.

MS SOOKA: You never filed a criminal charge against the defence force at any time for this action?

MR NTULI: No I never did.

MS SOOKA: And you mentioned the name of a lawyer, did he file a claim on your behalf against the defence force?

MR NTULI: He tried but I don't know how far did he go with the matter because he's always busy, you never find him even if you go and look for him. That's when I gave up.

MS SOOKA: You've mentioned in your statement that you are very bitter about the fact that you lost your leg, could you tell us a little bit about it, you say that you were a very good soccer player and that you had the potential to play professionally, could you tell us a little bit about that please?

MR NTULI: I was playing soccer with my friends for a local club belonging to late Victor Mazebuka who is staying now in Sprayview. We were youngsters. We were playing for the fourth division and we won the league twice and the local clubs in Tembisa, even the Kings Palace they knew that we were dangerous soccer players although we were very young. We were 19, 20 of age. But we used to play with powerful soccer clubs.

MS SOOKA: How old were you at the time when you were shot?

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MR NTULI: I was 17 years old then.

MS SOOKA: Do you receive a disability grant now?

MR NTULI: Yes I do.

MS SOOKA: Is that how you support yourself?

MR NTULI: Yes, but I sell vegetables and fruit as well, but I have closed down my business at the moment.

MS SOOKA: Do you receive medical treatment still for your leg?

MR NTULI: No, I only go to repair the artificial bends in hospital but other than that no further medical treatment.

MS SOOKA: We have also through our Investigation Unit we tried to get a copy of your hospital records and we were told by the Tembisa Hospital that they don't keep it for more than three years, do you have any documentation relating to your stay in hospital?

MR NTULI: The only thing that I have is the card, it's the card that one presents when one goes to the hospital and nothing else. It's just the blue card.

MS MKHIZE: Just one minor question, if you were such a good soccer player how possible is it for you to help other disabled people to maintain higher standards in sports, have you ever thought of that?

MR NTULI: The thing that I loved most was soccer and the other sports I used to play was golf but it's very expensive to play golf, but soccer you cannot play when you have got only one leg.

MS SOOKA: Mr Ntuli I would like to thank you for coming to tell us your story. We have heard about the way in which this incident has changed your life. In fact it spoiled it for any chances you had of achieving the dreams that you wanted. We have taken note of the request that you have 

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made and we will see what we can do about attending to them. Is there anything that you would like to tell the Truth Commission?

MR NTULI: What I would like to say is that because I am not working and just surviving on the disability grant it's not sufficient. I just need some increase in my disability grant from the present government because I cannot even get married because I am not working. No woman will ever stay with an unemployed man. If the Commission could assist me perhaps financially.

MS SOOKA: The Commission through its Reparation Committee is looking at different ways in which it can assist victims. We will get back to you about your matter and our Reparation Committee has taken note of your circumstances and are putting forward a policy recommendation that they are making to Government in respect of reparation policy. Thank you for coming today.

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