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DATE:&#9;14 JUNE 2000
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 DATE:&#9;&#9;&#9;14 JUNE 2000

NAME:&#9;&#9;&#9;PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM6634/97

MATTER:&#9;&#9;&#9;ATTACK ON A FARM IN THENISSEN

DAY:&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Today we are hearing the applications of Pudumo, Ernest, H L Gqomfa and others and yesterday afternoon we said we would start with Mr Pudumo, if I'm not mistaken Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We would as usual place ourselves on record, those who would be involved in the Pudumo matter. I am Motata from the Transvaal Provincial Division, chairing these proceedings. On my right I have Judge de Jager, also from Transvaal Provincial in Gauteng and on my left I have Adv Sandi from East London in the Eastern Cape. Would the legal representatives also place themselves on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicant in this matter. Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I am Lulama Mtanga, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: It would appear, Ms Mtanga, there's no representative for victims. Do we have victims here?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, the victims were notified and they declared that they're not interested to attend this hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo, in which language would the applicant testify?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sotho Chairperson.

PABELO ERNEST PUDUMO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Pudumo is it correct that you were born on the 1st of March 1953?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you were born in Lesotho?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Pudumo, can you tell the Committee, how far have you gone at school?

MR PUDUMO: Standard 6, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Pudumo, can you tell the Committee to which organisation do you belong?

MR PUDUMO: The PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join PAC?

MR PUDUMO: In 1990.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Exactly where in 1990 did you join PAC?

MR PUDUMO: In Virginia.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who recruited you into PAC?

MR PUDUMO: It's Sibande.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Msibande or Sibande?

MR PUDUMO: Sibande.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now who was Sibande? What was he in PAC?

MR PUDUMO: I knew him as a member of the PAC.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, did you have a branch in Virginia of PAC?

MR PUDUMO: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What activities were you involved in? What PAC activities were you involved in since your joining of the PAC?

MR PUDUMO: The activities that I associated myself with in the PAC were the orders given to me by my superiors.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who were your superiors?

MR PUDUMO: I have mentioned the name of Sibande already.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What orders were he giving you?

MR PUDUMO: After recruiting me into the PAC, he showed me, he introduced me to Rasta Moloto, that's how I came to 43know Rasta Moloto and together with Sibande, they were known to me as members of the PAC. In 1991 they arrived at my place, three of them, it was Rasta Moloto, Sibande and Lebohang Mehi. In other words he was going to introduce the three of them to me and that was the last year of seeing me. He didn't see me thereafter and the two that were left with me, they informed me about the aspirations of the organisation and what the organisation expected of me. I also took an oath that I will support the organisation with whatever it needs from me. 

&#9;Myself and Rasta Moloto and Lebohang Mehi, on that day Mr Mehi gave orders to Rasta Moloto. The instructions were that: "Fulfil the aspirations of the organisation". All orders were given to Rasta Moloto and he in turn passed them to me. Lebohang Mehi, we separated with Lebohang Mehi at that stage. What Rasta Moloto told me was that: "Man, now you must be aware, we have to join the Task Force". I tried to ask him what the Task Force was and what was it all about, what its functions were and he reported that the duties of the Task Force is to assist the organisation with whatever it needs and whatever was needed by the military wing of the organisation. Because I had committed myself I said: "Very well, I will go ahead with that."

MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join the Task Force?

MR PUDUMO: In 1991.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you trained in anything?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who trained you and where?

MR PUDUMO: The person who trained me is Rasta Moloto. He said: "I will give you certain training." It was in Virginia.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At that time, what were you doing yourself before you were recruited to PAC? What was your occupation?

MR PUDUMO: I left the job in 1990, that was due to the retrenchment.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where were you working?

MR PUDUMO: In Harmony Mine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Pudumo, is it correct that you are a Lesotho citizen?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, I was a Lesotho citizen at that stage.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What do you mean by that? Does that me now you are no longer a Lesotho citizen?

MR PUDUMO: From 1990, I was responsible for a house in Virginia, so I was staying there, I was residing there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. 

JUDGE DE JAGER: Responsible for a house in - what does he mean?

MR PUDUMO: What I'm trying to explain is that from 1990 I was not a resident in Virginia, I owned a house.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What did you pay for the house, or how did you come to own the house?

MR PUDUMO: I paid for the house myself.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, my question actually was, what did you pay for the house, how much?

MR PUDUMO: The person who sold the house, sold it for R350.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just to follow up what has been asked by the Member of the Committee on the question of the house, according to the Court record is that the house in which you were staying did not belong to you.

MR PUDUMO: It was my house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Let's then proceed. You were trained in Task Force. How many were you in your unit of the Task Force?

MR PUDUMO: We were two.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you come to the incident of the 21st of December 1992 and tell the Committee what happened. Who planned this attack and who came up with this idea and why?

MR PUDUMO: It was in the morning in 1992, Rasta Moloto came to me, he said to me: "Man, there's an attack that we should carry out. This attack will take place in Theunissen" and he organised everything and I asked him: "Seeing that you have already planned the attack, where did you take the order from? Where did you take this idea from?" and he said because he had been given orders, he has the responsibility. We planned that attack, but he was the leader in this whole issue. It was in 1992 on the 20th when we did the reconnaissance. It was the two of us. When we arrived we discovered that the area needed more than two people. He said he will then look for the other two people and I should organise transport in the meantime. We went back to Virginia and I looked into the transport issue and he came about with two people. The names of the two people that were joining were Potsotso and Johannes Leabe.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Were they - in which organisation did they belong, these two?

MR PUDUMO: I do not know which organisation they belonged to.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Did you ask them, or did you ask Rasta about which organisation they belonged to?

MR PUDUMO: I only asked whether these were the people who were going to assist us and he said yes. The plan was just to get people just to assist us with the execution of the plan, that is why I went on with the arrangements of getting a car. I went to the taxi rank and I managed to get hold of a private vehicle. We got into this vehicle and then we left.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Who drove the vehicle? Who was the driver of the vehicle?

MR PUDUMO: The name of the driver was Seun Dasi.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Just - you said the idea was to get just people to assist you, did it matter to which organisation they belonged, those people who were going to assist you, whether they belonged to an organisation or they did not belong to any, did it matter to you? The only thing you wanted was the people to assist you.

MR PUDUMO: I had a person who was commanding me. I do not know what was his intention in what he said to them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, continue.

ADV SANDI: Just a bit of clarity on that one. These two people, did you know them before? Had you met them before?

MR PUDUMO: No.

ADV SANDI: Were they using their real names or code names?

MR PUDUMO: I only learned of the two names, Potsotso and Seun Dasi and those are the only names I knew, I didn't know the others.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Continue. Then you hired a taxi to Theunissen, ...(indistinct)

MR PUDUMO: 

&#9;&#9;The taxi owner said he wanted us to pay R50 to take us to that place and I said to him: "Yes, I will give you the money" and indeed we took a trip. 

&#9;&#9;Before arriving at the place of the attack, we stopped the car and we told him to turn back, not to reach the place where we were going to and I asked my Commander the reason for that. He told me: "These people are here to assist us, they were not trained, they are just here to assist us with taking whatever we will repossess" and he gave an order that the car should turn back and these people should remain here and the two of us went ahead and he gave them an order, he said: "You stand here, you wait here until we tell you to go back or to come and assist us carry the things we are supposed to take." 

&#9;&#9;When we arrived at the place, we got into a farm. When we arrived at the farm, we found a girl working at that farm. I knocked at the door. When this girl came out, Rasta Moloto talked to her, he said to her he wanted to see the white man. This girl went into the house to call the white man. Rasta Moloto said to him: "Listen man, you have nothing to say, I am in command here". I asked what the reason for that, what if these people they were many people, and he said to me: "The language used here is Afrikaans." 

&#9;&#9;The white man approached. I did not understand what they were talking further but after a few minutes I noticed a white woman coming out of the door. After her a dog came out. She tried to stop it, she tried to take it back into the house but it refused, it went outside. When the white man came out, my commander prepared a firearm to get into the house. He gave me an order at that stage. He said: "Man, you must be aware now, we are fighting". 

&#9;&#9;On our way to this place, we had two firearms. I had a 38 with me and he had a .22. Indeed I waited outside, he got into the house pointing a gun at the white woman. I was left outside with this man. The woman was making noise to alert the people inside that there was something going on outside. After a few minutes when they were inside, I heard gunshots. The white man left me at the door. When he got inside, I noticed that I was now left on my own. I managed to shoot at him when he was quite a distance ahead of me. When I looked in front of me, the person who was with me was already shot, he was lying down there. I went to fetch him from where he had fallen. Luckily he had a gunshot wound, but he just slipped and he fell. I grabbed the gun from him and when I went back towards the door, I saw a young white woman, she had a firearm with her. I shot her. Now this person who was with me managed to stand up. 

&#9;&#9;Now on our way back a young white man, a white woman - another white woman was there, she had a shoe, but the heel of the shoe was faced towards - was pointed at me and I noticed that this person wanted to scare us, but the person was approaching. On passing the first door in the corridor, I noticed two people talking in this room and I had to shoot at this person who was approaching us. The person who was with me, took the firearm from me and I was left with one firearm. I asked him: "Are you still okay? Are you still in a well condition to fight?" He said: "Let us leave this place." I tried to accompany him up to the door, so that we could go outside. When I turned back, I saw another white person. Because of the noise and because it was chaotic, I did not even take into consideration who she was, but it was a woman. After looking at her, she ran back into the house and we managed to get out of the house. I had to stand at the door for quite some time, so that my injured colleague could walk a distance. 

&#9;&#9;After we had left and just close to a hill, he fell. I got suspicious the way he fell, it looked as if he was loosing energy. When I looked up there where the road came from, I saw many cars driving down and I had to be safe where I was, I had to run away. I tried to run to him to check as to whether he was still alive or not, but I could not do that because the cars were approaching fast and they were now very close. That was my escape. 

&#9;&#9;I did not go to the two people that we left behind, I only noticeD Potsotso passing and I noticed that they were not at the place where they were commanded to stay and we disbursed. Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Pudumo, is it not correct that the two that were left at that post did not want to enter the premises immediately they were told that you are going there to rob? Is that not the reason they were left behind, because they refused to enter immediately you told them that you are going there to rob?

MR PUDUMO: That is not true. My Commander gave me an instruction and I told them, you wait here until we come back.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Why did you tell them? You didn't know them, your Commander is there on the scene, why did he tell them: "You wait here until we come back", why did you do the ordering?

MR PUDUMO: After the car was stopped, the Commander jumped out and he called me and he said to me: "This car is turning back." He said to me: "This car is going to stop right here, it's not going to our destination. Can you please tell these people to wait here, we will call them." That was the reason why those people were left behind.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did they know the reason why you were going there? Did you not tell them that you're going there to fetch money?

MR PUDUMO: I don't know whether the Commander told them what we were going to do, but he talked to them. I don't know what he told them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: At what stage did he talk to them?

MR PUDUMO: May you repeat your question please?

MR MBANDAZAYO: You told the Committee that the Commander talked to them, the two other people, you don't know what he told them. Now I'm asking, at which stage did he talk to them?

MR PUDUMO: When these people arrived at me, my Commander told me: "We are now ready, we are now leaving and he said: "Are you ready with your car?" We managed then to get into a car and left. 

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you get this car at Virginia?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How far from Virginia is this farm?

MR PUDUMO: It's quite a long distance, I would not give kilometres, but it's from Virginia to Theunissen

JUDGE DE JAGER: How long did you drive, an hour, two hours to get there?

MR PUDUMO: I wouldn't want to commit myself, but what I know is that we drove a long distance.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Now in your application form at 11(b), you indicated that the orders were issued by APLA Director of Operations, Comrade Letlapa Mphahlele when you were asked who gave those orders for you to go and attack the farm. Now you are telling the Committee about Rasta Moloto, you have not mentioned Letlapa Mphahlele. Can you explain to the Committee?

MR PUDUMO: After familiarising myself with the request from the organisation, I inquired as to who is responsible for all these orders. Rasta Moloto then informed me, he said: "You must know Lebohang Mehi, he has been given orders by the superiors", I asked him: "Who are the superiors?" , he said: "Letlapa Mphahlele", that's how it came about that I knew the person who gave orders was up there and he was Letlapa Mphahlele.

CHAIRPERSON: But you go on and say those orders were issued between 92 and 93, was that also said by this Mehi?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, the orders that we were given were given out in that year. I think I mentioned, I said Lebohang Mehi, we separated with Lebohang Mehi in 1991.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but to a question from your legal representative when he said to you you said the orders came from Letlapa Mphahlele, just before that you said the orders were issued in 1992, 93 by APLA Director of Operations, Comrade Letlapa Mphahlele and now your evidence is that you parted with Mehi in 1991, how could he tell you about the orders to be issued the following year?

MR PUDUMO: Rasta arrived and he said to me: "You know I've been given orders to command you. Know that we are going to attack." All this happened in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. And also you were, the TRC wrote to you and asked you questions: 

&#9;&#9;"Who gave you orders to commit the said offences? Give full names, contactable addresses of such person."

Your response was that it was Mr Letlapa Mphahlele. And again you were asked:

&#9;&#9;"Upon whose approval did you commit the said offences? Give full details."

You again said:

&#9;&#9;"Mr Letlapa Mphahlele, APLA Commander."

MR PUDUMO: Yes, Sir. After knowing who the person was who issued out an order, I asked what his position was and I was told and that is why in my application I indicated that the superior person is him who gave out orders, because my immediate Commander told me: "All what you are doing has been ordered by our superior."

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you know this farm?

MR PUDUMO: I knew the farm on the 20th.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Have you ever been to that farm before?

MR PUDUMO: No, I went to that farm on the day of the reconnaissance, a day before the attack.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you direct the taxi driver to the farm?

MR PUDUMO: I was directing.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you identify the farm as a target?

MR PUDUMO: No, my Commander identified the farm.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why did you answer to the TRC on their request on page 6, paragraph 2:

&#9;&#9;"The target was identified by myself"?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, what I'm explaining is that we went to that area on the day of the attack but I had been with my Commander to that area, now that is why I directed the driver, it's because I had been there with the Commander.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why did you identify that farm, there's about 100 farms in the vicinity of Virginia and even at Theunissen, why that particular farm, why was that one chosen?

MR PUDUMO: I think the appropriate person to respond to that question is my Commander, he identified the place

JUDGE DE JAGER: But unfortunately, I can't call him, he's deceased and I haven't got that art or power to call up people who've departed from earth, so could you tell us why?

MR PUDUMO: I think he noticed that it was an important place to be identified.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can I just come in there? When this name Letlapa Mphahlele was mentioned to you, did you know who Rasta was talking about?

MR PUDUMO: When I joined the organisation I was told who the leaders were.

ADV SANDI: Was anything mentioned about Letlapa Mphahlele?

MR PUDUMO: Can you please clarify this question?

ADV SANDI: You say when you joined the organisation, you were told who the leaders were, now my question to you is, was anything mentioned to you about Letlapa Mphahlele?

MR PUDUMO: I was told that he is one of the top leaders.

ADV SANDI: Were you told whether he occupied any specific position in the organisation?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: What position was that?

MR PUDUMO: I was told that he was the Deputy to the High Commander.

ADV SANDI: And who was said to be the High Commander?

MR PUDUMO: It was Siabelo Pama.

ADV SANDI: I'm trying to find out from you when you mentioned this name, Letlapa Mphahlele, you're not mentioning a name which you may have come across in prison, don't you have discussions in prison amongst yourselves?

MR PUDUMO: I was still outside when I came to know this name.

ADV SANDI: Okay, thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

JUDGE DE JAGER: While on that, the only PAC people you ever met were Rasta and Mehi?

MR PUDUMO: There are many people within the township, the PAC people, but the important ones are those I've mentioned.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why didn't you make sure that some of the PAC members accompanied you on this mission? Now you're taking two strangers with, they're not even - you don't know whether they're PAC members?

MR PUDUMO: I've explained already that my task was to organise transport. The person who brought the two, was the Commander, I don't know why.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You had no meetings, you didn't have a branch at Virginia?

MR PUDUMO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were the two important in Virginia, Rasta and Mehi, because you said you were recruited by Sibande, if I remember well, why were these two now important?

MR PUDUMO: I think the two people that I've mentioned, the person who recruited me and the person who ordered me, those were the two important people.

CHAIRPERSON: Why were they important, what positions did they hold, other than accompanying you to the crime, the scene of crime? What was their importance?

MR PUDUMO: They were important in the sense that they showed to me the aspirations, or they told me about the aspirations of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Wouldn't you be shown by Sibande, because that's the man who recruited you and told you how important this organisation was? How could you join an organisation and thereafter know about its importance? You must know up front what the importance of that organisation is, wouldn't that be logical?

MR PUDUMO: My Lord, that is why I ...(end of tape)

people who are important are those who advised me, the one who recruited me and the one who gave me orders.

CHAIRPERSON: Other than the orders, what position did they hold within the PAC or the Task Force, as you refer to it?

MR PUDUMO: I just know that they were members of the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: No look, they are important people to you, they told you about the organisation. They should have said: "Look, I hold this position, therefore I speak in authority when I do so to you." They were just members of the Task Force and you were satisfied about that? Okay, let's start from Sibande. He introduces you to Rasta and Mehi, what did he say these people were within the PAC, or within the organisation?

MR PUDUMO: What Sibande told me was that: "Man, I am bringing these two people to you, they are also members of the organisation. This one is a member of APLA."

CHAIRPERSON: How long after he had recruited you in 1990, did he introduce you to these two?

MR PUDUMO: I met with him in 1990. In 1991, he introduced me to Lebohang Mehi. Between 1990 and 91 I came to know Mr Rasta Moloto.

CHAIRPERSON: You said in 1991: "They arrived at my place ..." that was the three, Sibande, Moloto and Mehi, now I don't follow.

MR PUDUMO: As I'm explaining the first person that I knew was Sibande. As time went by, you know between 90 and 91, I came to know Rasta Moloto. On the 10th of 1991, I came to know Lebohang Mehi.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the 10th of 1991?

MR PUDUMO: It was in January.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja, please assist us, we don't know these other things. We don't assume, it is you who has got to assist us. If you mention a date, tell us which month, because we know nothing, you are the person who knows everything, is that okay?

MR PUDUMO: Thank you My Lord.

CHAIRPERSON: But when you were asked questions that two, "The target was identified by myself with the authorisation of APLA through its declaration of the 90's as the decade of the great people's offensive."

Now you just told my brother here something else. Who authorised you, who commanded you, who instructed you, because it would appear there's a conflict here. At one stage you were asked by my brother and you said it was Letlapa Mphahlele, right up front, you say no, no, authorisation through the declaration and I suppose you're referring to the writings of the Pan Africanist Congress.

MR PUDUMO: I will explain it this way. After inquiring about the importance of the attack, I wanted to know what was happening and they explained to me: 

&#9;&#9;"You must know that from this year, 1990, this is the year of - it was a year of corruption, that's why you'll see us doing what we are doing now."

I asked them why and they said: 

&#9;&#9;"You must know, we have told you that this is going to be a very chaotic year, we are now starting with our fighting. We are going ahead with the struggle." 

And I wanted to know who was the person on top of all the instructions and the orders and the name ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: Now but wouldn't it have been simple for you to say so-and-so said: "From now henceforth is the great people's offensive and this has been said by the organisation, PAC", because here you are categorically saying to us you were authorised through these pamphlets probably you received, you don't say you were told, or am I reading it wrong, as I read it to you?

MR PUDUMO: You are quite right, I am explaining, I have explained that I wanted to know, I wanted information as to what was happening. After inquiring what was happening, they told me: "You must know and this is war, we are engaging ourselves in a war" and I came - I familiarised myself with the idea of fighting and what the fighting was about, that is why I gave the reason for all these.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they say there was war, or we're going to revolutionise and go on the offensive to destabilise the country, did they say so?

MR PUDUMO: They said to me we were going to destabilise the country.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you see even the crime you are applying for amnesty for, is attacking people on a farm, you were not facing another enemy as in war, would I be right as well?

MR PUDUMO: We were going to attack, Sir and to repossess whatever we could to hand over to the organisation as per instructions, that is why we ended up looking for more than two people for the attack, so that the other two could help us with the carrying out of what we were doing there.

CHAIRPERSON: When you reconnoitred the place, what did you see which was of value to the PAC which you could repossess?

MR PUDUMO: Together with the person I was with, he said this is a very nice place, it looks like this man is very rich and we could get quite a lot of assistance for the organisation, that is why we wanted more than two people for this operation. 

CHAIRPERSON: Other than this man looking plum, what was there that had to be taken? You can't tell me you see a man with a nice suit and you tell me that this man is rich, therefore we would get something out of him. What precisely because you went to look at the place, what did you see?

MR PUDUMO: He had a car and there were items, many items there.

JUDGE DE JAGER: In the house? Were there many items in the house, or outside?

MR PUDUMO: Well, if we noticed very well, outside we could see from where we were that there was a car parked outside and there was another one inside.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now why didn't you take the car and drive away, what else did you want to take?

MR PUDUMO: The plan was to kill the boers.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, no, no. You said at first was to attack the whites and repossess, this is a dual thing. We want to know right now, because you went, accompanied Rasta to look at the place and you took two people with who would do the carrying of what you repossessed, we want to know what were these people going to carry which you repossessed?

MR PUDUMO: What I'm explaining here is that the two people, the person who chose them, knew the reason for that. When we separated with him, the first point that we agreed upon was that we know this man is rich, the second point, here are the cars outside and he explained to me that we can see the cattle, so this man was also selling cattle, so in other words there were many things, many other things that we would get and those would need more than two people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: How do you know Rasta didn't go there on a frolic of his own to take things for himself and he had two friends going with, they were not PAC even, you don't know whether they were.

MR PUDUMO: According to our agreement he said: "I will go and look for two people, you will search for a car", whether they were friends, I do not know, but the agreement that we reached of bringing two people and me bringing a vehicle, was done, I brought a car, he brought the two people.

JUDGE DE JAGER: But my question is, how do you know that Rasta didn't plan to break into their house or to rob things for his own purposes, for personal gain?

MR PUDUMO: That would not be the case, Sir, we had agreed that we are working for the organisation. He taught me that as we are doing now, we are working for the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: You said there were many people who belonged to the organisation in Virginia. Why didn't you say: "Because we have looked at this place, it needs more than two people, let's get so and so and so and so"? But you leave it to him, he comes with complete strangers to you and you don't question that.

MR PUDUMO: He did not mention the names of the people beforehand, he said: "I am going to look for two people". Now as my Commander, I knew that he would come with important people for the purpose of conducting an order.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you went only for one day to look at this farm?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: What time of day was it?

MR PUDUMO: I think it was midday.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you attacked, what time of the day?

MR PUDUMO: We went the same time, that is midday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but according to the reading I had done, is that you were involved in one incident, would I be right?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And with one incident, you can't recall even just approximately what time you reconnoitred and what time was suitable to attack, you just say during the day. Wouldn't it be that people would look at a target, make absolutely certain that if we come at this time, the situation would be the same? Wouldn't that make sense?

MR PUDUMO: That would make sense Sir, that is why I'm saying to you midday hours, it's between one and twelve.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I thought you said you were done?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I wanted just, it was going to be the last point I wanted to canvass with him. Now Mr Pudumo, you indicated that you joined in 1990 and this operation took place in 1992, would I be correct to say at that time you were well versed with the aims and objectives of the PAC?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did they tell you what were the aims and objectives of the PAC?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Will you tell the Committee about those aims and objectives?

MR PUDUMO: The aims and the objectives of the PAC were to get back the land. Those who illegally occupied the land were supposed to be removed, that is why we ended up pursuing the inspirations of the organisation, its because we wanted land.

ADV SANDI: Just further on that, did they tell you when this organisation the PAC was founded?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: What did they say?

MR PUDUMO: They told me the organisation was founded in 1959 on the 6th of April.

ADV SANDI: Let's go back to the stage where you were travelling in the car, it was the taxi driver, yourself, Rasta and these two strangers. Did you talk to each other, by referring to each other with each other's name? Or call any name, genuine names?

MR PUDUMO: Let me explain how the seating arrangement was in the car. The first one was the driver and the passenger seat was occupied by myself and behind me it was Rasta Moloto, my Commander and next to him was Potsotso and on the right side was Bless, that is Johannes Leabe. When we left Virginia, when we drove out of Virginia I asked them, I had known the driver already from the taxi rank and I asked him: "What's your name?" and he told me that his name was Seun Dasi.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, was he not the driver?

MR PUDUMO: Seun Dasi was the driver.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, other than Seun because you secured the transport in other means. Just come back with the names of the people who were involved there, it was yourself, Seun Dasi.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I said leave Seun Dasi because he was the driver. You didn't even get next to the place because you said: "Stop here and turn back", if I understood your evidence. Didn't you say so? So I said those who went actually to the farm. It's yourself, Potsotso ...(intervention)

MR PUDUMO: No, My Lord, it looks like we do not understand each other. Let me put it this way. Rasta said to me: "These people are going to remain here, we are going to the farm. Me and you are going to the farm. We're going to the farm, the two of us." The car was stopped and Potsotso and Johannes Leabe remained behind and the driver Seun Dasi, those were the people who were left behind. In other words it's only two of us, myself and Rasta, who went to the place of the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Now I don't follow. How would these others carry what you repossessed when you left them behind? Because you said when you looked at the place you realised that you must be four there, because the other two would carry what you had repossessed. Did I follow you correctly?

MR PUDUMO: What I said is that the driver and these two people were left behind. My Commander said: "After finishing the job we are going to call you to come and get items". They were not going to fight, they were going to assist in carrying the items, that was the agreement between me and Rasta Moloto.

CHAIRPERSON: So, in your reconnaissance, you realised you could take the whole day in doing this because you would go attack, kill the people, then go back, call the people to come. How long in our reconnaissance in other words did you think you can execute the mission, how many hours did you need to execute that mission?

MR PUDUMO: We left the people at a place that was conducive enough for us to go and get them after we had done the job.

CHAIRPERSON: The question is, how long, how much time did you need for this operation? That's my question.

MR PUDUMO: We would even take a whole day, Sir, we were trying to get the job done.

CHAIRPERSON: And in your reconnaissance what estimation did you give that the operation needs in terms of time?

MR PUDUMO: We only managed to come to a point that the operation needed to be done midday and we would need so many people, that is why it was carried out in the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, we were on the objectives and all that and I'm sorry, I hope we haven't derailed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No, Chairperson, in fact I will pass that one. Let met - my last point to ask you, do you know the motto of the PAC?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What was the motto?

MR PUDUMO: One settler, one bullet.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Was not one settler one bullet the slogan of APLA?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: But I'm asking the motto of the PAC.

MR PUDUMO: It's ...(ethnic). 

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Lastly, why should you be granted amnesty in respect of this incident? Tell the Committee.

MR PUDUMO: The Committee should grant me amnesty firstly because we were doing what the organisation ordered us. What we did was ordered by the organisation and that is why the Committee should grant me amnesty as requested.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence, Chairperson and Honourable Members, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

JUDGE DE JAGER: One thing I want to ask you about. Where was your wife staying at the time?

MR PUDUMO: She was staying with me in Virginia.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Wasn't she in Lesotho with the child?

MR PUDUMO: No, we were in Virginia.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but is it not the position that at the time you were actually a citizen of Lesotho?

MR PUDUMO: I was already a South African citizen.

ADV SANDI: When did you become a citizen of South Africa?

MR PUDUMO: I arrived here in 1985.

ADV SANDI: I did not ask you when did you arrive here, I was asking when did you become a citizen of South Africa.

MR PUDUMO: In 1990.

ADV SANDI: How did you become a citizen of South Africa in 1990?

MR PUDUMO: After given accommodation, I applied for a South African identity document.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I wish to refer you to page 37. The Judge said, you made standard 6, you worked on a mine for seven years and you were unemployed at this stage. 

&#9;&#9;" It is also not in dispute that the accused is a citizen of Lesotho and that he grew up in Lesotho and that he has a wife there."

Where did that Judge hear this and it wasn't disputed at the trial.

MR PUDUMO: I recall this was one of the issues during the trial and I asked them: "Where am I now?" and what was emphasised there was that where they found me was my house and I asked them: "If this is my house, why do these people tell me that I am a Lesotho Citizen?" The Judge did not respond to that.

CHAIRPERSON: That cannot be true. I'll tell you what my brother is asking you, is that after conviction and before sentence, these were the other elements which the Judge had to take into consideration in passing sentence, these were never under discussion, hence he's saying look these are not in dispute, there's no discussion about it.

Please and I think after correcting you, you can answer my brother. Mitigating factors before sentence was passed and when the Judge made these comments which my brother was just reading to you, this is what he was told to take into consideration, that you have worked in the mines for seven years and you were retrenched, that you have a wife who is in Lesotho and it's not in dispute that you are a Lesotho citizen because let me remind you, you were represented by an advocate, Mr Meyer, he put these facts to the Judge and obviously coming as a Pro Deo counsellor, he wouldn't know all that, he must have got it somewhere and my suspicion is that he got it from you, but you can correct us and put my suspicions in perspective.

MR PUDUMO: My advocate came to me and he asked me, this was the beginning of the discussions and he never forwarded what the situation was. I told him that this is where you can find me. Yes, this is where you can find me.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, when you were found guilty, do you recall that there were two stages in the trial? Firstly there was the evidence of what happened on the farm, you recall that, that there was evidence of what happened at the farmer and then the Judge said to you and that you would find on page 35 that you were found guilty on count 1, not guilty on count 6 and guilty on the count of murder. It ended. Then he wanted to sentence you and then he said: "What do you have to say in mitigation?" Then he says:

"The accused's personal circumstances (meaning you) are the following and this is not in dispute", that you are 30 years of age, you had no previous convictions, you obtained standard 6 and thereafter you worked for seven years in the mines and you were retrenched and it was also not in dispute that you were a Lesotho citizen and that you grew up in Lesotho and you have a wife in Lesotho. Do you follow the personal circumstances which were put to the Judge? Now this advocate did you know him before, the advocate who defended you?

MR PUDUMO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So he knew you from no bar of soap, how could he come with these details because you told us for instance you obtained standard 6 at school, so it's correct as far as that is concerned. Wouldn't we be right?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And born in 1963, when you were sentenced in 1993, you were 30 years, its correct?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now where would the Judge have got those personal circumstances about yourself, when you say no there was discussion about your citizenship, if the advocate did not get that from you or the Judge did not get it from you?

MR PUDUMO: It is true, we did all this. Now what happened was the discussions were as they took place but all the facts that we discussed and all the facts that were discussed are not indicated here, they were not all placed in here.

CHAIRPERSON: You have a wife, don't you?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The Judge nor the advocate did not know you, you told them that you had a wife, is that not so?

MR PUDUMO: It's myself.

CHAIRPERSON: You told the Court or the advocate that you were retrenched from work, they did not know that, isn't it so?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You told them about your scholastic career, that you ended up in standard 6, that was not know to either the Judge or the advocate, was it not so?

MR PUDUMO: That is so.

CHAIRPERSON: That you grew up in Lesotho and came to work in the mines, they did not know that, you are the only one who knew that and you must have told them that, isn't that so?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The only dispute you say which they made wrong, was that you are a Lesotho citizen and that your wife was in Lesotho, so they made a mistake in respect of that?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, because they were here.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Pudumo. Ms Mtanga, I hope I haven't taken the thunder out of your cross-examination?

MS MTANGA: Not at all Chairperson, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo, if I can just make a follow-up to what the Chairperson was asking you, would you say the Judge in his Judgement lied when he said your citizenship was not in dispute, if you say there were discussions about whether you were a South African citizen or a Lesotho citizen and this was disputed by yourself and then if he went on in his Judgement and stated that your citizenship was not disputed, are you saying he lied?

MR PUDUMO: I have explained in detail that I was born in Lesotho. My arrest occurred when I was residing here in South Africa.

MS MTANGA: You're not answering my question. I'm asking you, are you saying the Judge lied?

MR PUDUMO: Can you put your question again?

MS MTANGA: My question is that the Judge in his Judgment stated that your citizenship, as it was put before the Court by your counsel, was never disputed by any of the parties including yourself and now you are saying that there were discussion disputing that you were actually a Lesotho citizen, what I'm asking you now, are you saying the Judge lied in his Judgement when he said the fact that you were a Lesotho citizen was not disputed?

MR PUDUMO: He knows that. He's telling the truth.

MS MTANGA: In your application you were asked to give us your identity number or passport number, why didn't you fill in that part of your application?

MR PUDUMO: I had not yet received it.

MS MTANGA: When did you apply for your I.D.?

MR PUDUMO: Since 1987.

ADV SANDI: When did you get your I.D. book?

MR PUDUMO: I did not get an I.D., I only got a duplicate.

MS MTANGA: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MS MTANGA: Did you subsequently get your identity document?

MR PUDUMO: I haven't received it.

MS MTANGA: Did you make any inquiries why you have not received your identity document, because all prisoners will have identity documents?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, ever since I landed in prison, I have made inquiries.

MS MTANGA: Were you able to vote in 1994?

MR PUDUMO: We were not allowed to vote as prisoners, but what happened was that I received another duplicate.

MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo, that's not true, prisoners did vote in 1994.

MR PUDUMO: What I'm telling you is true, we did not vote in 1994, we were told that prisoners who committed murder cannot vote.

MS MTANGA: I want to put it to you that prisoners who were South African citizens, who weren't in exile and were not in possession of South African documents, did receive these documents even if they were in prison. What do you say to this?

MR PUDUMO: I can't have any knowledge to that effect, but I did not receive the I.D.

MS MTANGA: Who filled in this application for you? Your amnesty application, who filled it for you?

MR PUDUMO: We filled it in when we arrived at Grootvlei.

MS MTANGA: But who filled it in for you? I need the name of the person who filled it in for you.

MR PUDUMO: It's myself.

MS MTANGA: Is this the truth, Mr Pudumo? Are you telling us the truth?

MR PUDUMO: I filled the application myself.

MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo, I wish to put it to you that applicants from Grootvlei prison had the same person filling in their applications for them, the same handwriting that's here. What do you say to this?

MR PUDUMO: It is true. It is not my handwriting but the facts are from my mouth.

MS MTANGA: So I'm asking you, who filled in this application for you, I need the name of that person.

MR PUDUMO: It's been quite a while and I have forgotten the name of the person who filled these forms for us.

MS MTANGA: Were you assisted by a PAC or an APLA member to fill in these applications?

MR PUDUMO: PAC member assisted.

MS MTANGA; Was he a fellow prisoner?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, may I just interpose here? Mr Pudumo if you look at page 8 is that your handwriting?

MS MTANGA: Someone assisted me with writing.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is that?

MR PUDUMO: It was Kleinbooi Mashea.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And the handwriting on page 6?

MR PUDUMO: The same.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was Mr Mehi at any stage with you in the Grootvlei prison?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct, Sir.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you met him there again?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, I found him at Grootvlei.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you discuss this incident with him?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. You told this Committee that one of your instructions was to repossess from this farm that you had identified. Can you tell this Committee what is the policy of the PAC and APLA regarding repossession? Why were they repossessing and what units were formed to carry out this repossession? Can you give us the full background of the repossession policy.

MR PUDUMO: After taking whatever we take, we had to sell those things and assist the organisation in that regard.

CHAIRPERSON: No, no, the question is simple. What was the policy of the PAC in that regard and what repossession units were formed by the PAC? That is the question to you. Am I right Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes, you're correct, Chairperson. Thank you.

MR PUDUMO: The policy said the land belonged to us.

MS MTANGA: Is that all you can say about the PAC policy about repossession?

MR PUDUMO: Yes, that is why I'm saying the land and all that is on the land belonged to us. The land and all that belongs to it.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga if I may interpose again. Now when you went to this farm at Theunissen to repossess, were you going to repossess that farm in accordance with the PAC policy?

MR PUDUMO: When we went to Theunissen we were going to eliminate and take everything that we could get at that farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you going to repossess the farm as well in accordance with the policy of the PAC as you told us? Take away, in other words, the farm from the owners because the PAC said the land belonged to us, we must repossess our land.

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you need people to accompany you because you were simply going to repossess the farm, you would not carry the farm with?

MR PUDUMO: My Lord, if I understand you well, a farm is just, it's a place where buildings are erected, we only wanted to take what we could get on the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: And leave the farm as is?

MR PUDUMO: If we have removed the goods and nobody is staying there anymore, the land would be belonging to the Africans, those who were residing on the farm would be the owners of the land.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Pudumo, you haven't answered my question about what were the repossession units of the APLA called.

MR PUDUMO: Can you please take it step by step, so that I understand it?

MS MTANGA: Take what step by step, Mr Pudumo. I'm asking you the names, what were the repossession units of APLA called? That's a single question.

MR PUDUMO: I explained that the PAC's policy was, the land belongs to us and the, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pudumo, what you are asked is, did you know within APLA there were specialised units which were formed to do that task which you were told by Mehi to do, did you know that?

MR PUDUMO: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Now she wants to know from you about those specialised repossession units because they were in pockets, that's all she wants to know, it's very simple. Would I be correct, Ms Mtanga?

MS MTANGA: Yes, you are correct, Chairperson, I'm indebted to you.

MR PUDUMO: Task Force.

MS MTANGA: That is wrong, Mr Pudumo.

ADV SANDI: Just on that, did you know anything about the use of code names by APLA cadres?

MR PUDUMO: Code names used where?

ADV SANDI: Do you know what a code name means? Code name - that is when you are not using your real name for security.

MR PUDUMO: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Did you know anything about the use of such code names by members of APLA?

MR PUDUMO: What we knew was that members of APLA could use pseudonyms or disguises.

ADV SANDI: Did you have such a name?

MR PUDUMO: No.

ADV SANDI: And Rasta, did he ever have such a name?

MR PUDUMO: I knew him through that name, Rasta.

ADV SANDI: And that was his real name, not so?

MR PUDUMO: No, I just knew him as Rasta Moloto and that was it.

ADV SANDI: When these two strangers were introduced to you by Rasta, did he introduce you to these gentlemen as well?

MR PUDUMO: On the way I learned their names.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but did he tell them what you name was, did he tell them? What did he say to them?

MR PUDUMO: I told them what my name was.

ADV SANDI: Which was?

MR PUDUMO: Pabelo Pudumo.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MS MTANGA: Mr Pudumo earlier on you were asked what was the PAC motto. Can you just tell the Committee what was the PAC motto?

MR PUDUMO: ...(ethnic)

MS MTANGA: That was also incorrect, Mr Pudumo. As a PAC member who joined the PAC and was also recruited into the Task Force, how come that you don't know the basic information of the PAC and its operations, if you were really a PAC member and a Task Force member? How can you not know a simple thing such as a motto of your organisation?

MR PUDUMO: That is why I'm saying the motto of the organisation is the land is ours.

MS MTANGA: I've just told you Mr Pudumo, that's a wrong answer, there is no such. What kind of a member of PAC who'd go on and kill people and claim to be an ANC member and not know his own organisation's motto?

MR PUDUMO: ...(not translated)

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have any re-exam?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any witnesses, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your case?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the case of the applicant Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Pudumo thank you very much you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, are you leading any evidence?

MS MTANGA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Could we be given very brief submissions, if any, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, no submission except that I would like to highlight because I left the Committee in the lurch in some of the questions I wanted the applicant to answer, like as my colleague indicated, ask the motto. I did not get the answer to the motto, whether the applicant ... 

&#9;Chairperson it's correct what has been said by my colleague that it was not correct, the motto of the PAC itself, serve, suffer, sacrifice, SSS, which of course is basic, it's the first thing you are taught, it's serve, suffer, sacrifice for the organisation and also Chairperson, what I wanted to highlight was the aims and objectives of the PAC. Of course, Chairperson, they are five in all, aims and objectives of the PAC which you are taught when you join the organisation. Of course the first one everybody knows, to unite and rally the Africans under the ...(indistinct) of African Nationalism, there are five of them, Chairperson, so I wanted to highlight that.

&#9;And thirdly Chairperson, I wanted to highlight the question of the operations. The Committee knows that there's a difference between repossession unit and the offensive side, they were totally different and of course it was known that it was code name Beauty Salon, the repossessing units and their modus operandi definitely were totally different Chairperson, as compared to the other side, which was an offensive side. Specifically their's was to repossess and of course, Chairperson it was for specific targets and of course Chairperson, I know that not all of the farmers' farms were targeted for repossession. It was let by Tabelo Paseko.

&#9;So the offensive unit, of course their's was to go and attack, they would never take anything - leave everything as it is. Of course there were instances where they would say, as a soldier if you see a gun, you cannot leave it lying there, you will take it, which is understandable, as long as you've not put the other members in problem, or killed in the process when you are doing that.

&#9;We had a similar instance here in Bloemfontein regarding Wesselsbron attack, where members of APLA the offensive unit, went to attack and repossess and the Committee wanted an explanation in as much as they asserted that they did not dispute that they were APLA members, but they wanted to know why an offensive unit went to go and repossess and Letlapa Mphahlele has come and made an affidavit as to why that repossession unit, a specialised unit was not available at that time and the operation had to be taken and as a result they made a mess of that operation, they left the money which they wanted there, the only thing they did was to attack. They only took cheques which were useless at the end of the day. 

&#9;So what I'm trying to say Chairperson, is that there was indeed separation.

CHAIRPERSON: ... which appeared, I don't know how many times.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, that's why I wanted to - that's the only submission Chairperson. Chairperson, I'm not going to make any submissions because they won't take our case any further regarding this matter. The applicant has put his case and I think it's enough for the Committee to reach a fair and a just decision in this matter. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no submissions to make. Thank you.

NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo and Ms Mtanga. Mr Pudumo, will you sit down for a while. The Committee reserves its decision. We are required by the Act, the TRC Act that our decisions should be in writing. We are going to deliberate on your matter and at the earliest convenience you will be advised in writing, you will be given the decision as well which we have reached. I must thank you Mr Mbandazayo and Ms Mtanga for your assistance. &#9;We will adjourn for tea for 15 minutes and then we'll resume with the application of Gqomfa.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

NAME:&#9;&#9;&#9;HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM 0949/96

MATTER:&#9;&#9;&#9;ATTACK ON THE FAMR OF MR AND &#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;MRS &#9;MYBURG

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: We are continuing and we will now hear the application of Gqomfa, Kulman, Phila Dolo and Lerato Khotle and before I come to you Mr Mbandazayo, for the record I am Motata from the Transvaal Provincial Division, Gauteng and on my right is my brother, Judge de Jager, also from the Transvaal Provincial Division, Gauteng. On my left I have Adv Sandi from East London, Eastern Cape. Would the legal representatives put themselves on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo. I'm representing the applicant in this matter and I'm from Eastern Cape, East London, thank you.

MR COETZER: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. I represent the victims in this instance. I'm Riaan Coetzer, from the firm Vermaak and Denis in Bloemfontein.

CHAIRPERSON: May you, Mr Coetzer, tell us the victims you are representing?

MR COETZER: It is Mr and Mrs Myburg who were the owners of the farm that was attacked. As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Just to get clarity, Mr Coetzer, we heard of various farms that were attacked. What farm or farms are we talking about here?

MR COETZER: Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee, it is the farm in Lady Grey, the name of the farm is Wilgerspruit. I apologise Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee it seems as if it is the farm Fairview, Wilgerspruit and Moseley farm.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Your clients are sitting next to you, can they just confirm for you that those are the three farms that they were involved in?

MR COETZER: As it pleases the Committee. I'll just get instructions from them. Honourable Members, Wilgerspruit was there personal property. The farm Fairview, a bakkie stood there that was burned. It was however not their personal property. If I can just address the Committee about the farm Moseley, I've got no instructions concerning that farm. I can therefore not tell the Committee where this fits in into the picture.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer. Do we have an appearance from the Amnesty Committee?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I'm Lulama Mtanga the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee. I just want to add on what my Learned Friend has just elaborated on. According to our information, Wilgerspruit was owned by Mr Myburg and the farm Fairview was hired by Mr Fanie Schlebush, who's indicated as the second victim and he also owned the farm Moseley and in that farm, only a veld was burned, the property was not actually - the house was not actually burned and then in Fairview, a vehicle was burned and partially the house was also burned and both Fairview and Moseley were farms occupied by Mr Fanie Schlebush at that time. He was notified and the last time we contacted him, he indicated that he would be coming, but he had doubts and then we never communicated with him again, but he received a notification from us.

ADV SANDI: Isn't this a chamber matter then?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson these farms were initially categorised as chamber matters, but on the insistence of Adv Paddy Prior that these were and advice from some of the Committee members, that because the intention could have been to kill these people, because they attacked these farms at night not knowing whether there were people or not and on that basis they said these would constitute attempted murder if they were to be charged criminally and hence the decision was taken that they must be heard.

CHAIRPERSON: Since we are here, we'll hear them. Mr Mbandazayo, we see there are several applicant, four in all, would I be correct?

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(indistinct)

CHAIRPERSON: It means the documents I have, there are four applicants.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson there are four applicants but only three will be because Phila Dolo will not be featuring in this application because he was not involved in the farm attacks, he was involved in the Ficksburg area and they have already been heard, his application. What I think was somebody who was supposed to be here was Stephen Vusi Msidolo, who was involved with Gqomfa, but he has already been granted amnesty in chambers with regard to this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: So we're formally removing the application of Phila Dolo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And we shall do so. The application of Mr Phila Dolo is removed from the roll for this hearing. With which applicant are you going to start first?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I will start Chairperson with Humphrey Luyanda Gqomfa.

HUMPHREY LUYANDA GQOMFA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I'll be just brief Chairperson. 

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Gqomfa, is it correct that you were born in Port Elizabeth in the Eastern Cape?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you are also a father of a little girl between the ages 4 and 5 years?

MR GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it correct also that you passed standard nine at school and you never managed to complete matric?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you joined the PAC through AZANYU in 1983?

MR GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you joined APLA while in exile in Botswana during 1986?

MR GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And also is it correct that you joined APLA because it was a liberation army and you were determined play a role in the liberation of the oppressed majority in the country?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you did your military training in Tanzania, Uganda and Egypt?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Which included training in how to use arms and ammunition?

MR GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you returned in South Africa in 1991 to Umtata in Transkei?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you became involved in the building of the political structures of APLA?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now is it also correct that you have been involved in various operations of APLA, including the Heidelberg Tavern incident in Cape Town, in which you were Commander thereof?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you were involved also in various ambushes in the area of Sterkspruit, Lady Grey area?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Gqomfa, is it also correct that you were also involved in the farm attack in Lady Grey?

MR GQOMFA: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee briefly about this attack, who ordered the attack and who commanded you and what was the purpose and why did you attack the farm?

MR GQOMFA: We were staying in Sterkspruit, our overall Commander was Mphahlele, since he was a Director of Operations, we were a unit that was based there. I think it was on the 18th of March, but I'm not sure about the date of this operation, but before this operation there was a township by the name of ...(indistinct) in Sterkspruit and what happened is, the whole week I was in Coville in this township and I would go to this farm to reconnoitre this farm to see what is happening, there were cars and the people that are staying there and about who was staying in the main house. On the day of the operation as there was an overall command, I was a Unit Commander - there was a Unit Commander by the name of Vusi Dolo. We went to this farm because we knew that there was nobody that day and the workers were going to be in the places where they were staying, so we attacked that farm on that day and then we went back to the base after attacking the farm.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay. Can you ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: What did you do to the farm?

MR GQOMFA: What we did, we threw petrol bombs because we only had petrol bombs with us, so we used those petrol bombs.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you aiming when you threw these petrol bombs?

MR GQOMFA: Our aim was to pressurise those people because we knew that the farmers were the backbone of the Government of that day, so they were supporting the Nationalist Government and they were not treating the Africans well, so we knew that the farmers were supporting that Government and there were farmers all over the country, so our aim was to pressurise those people in order for them to talk to their Government so that we can get what we wanted, that was our aim.

CHAIRPERSON: My question wasn't clear, I said - you said on this day you had petrol bombs, now I mean at this far what were you aiming? Were you aiming at the house or what were you wanting to throw the petrol bombs at?

MR GQOMFA: Our aim was to burn the house, the one that we burned, that was our main aim, to burn the house only, because we knew that there was nobody in the house, they would come back, the owners of the house would come back maybe during weekends but they were not sleeping there.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now what I wanted to know is that who gave you the order to go and attack this farm?

MR GQOMFA: It was Mr Letlapa.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who did the reconnaissance of the farm?

MR GQOMFA: It was myself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you have already indicated that you told the Committee why you attacked it, now you know that Mr Myburg would take it that, I don't know whether you knew who the owner is before you attacked the farm. Did you know the owner of the farm before you attacked it?

MR GQOMFA: No, we did not know the owner of the farm, but we knew that it belonged to a white person, but we did not know him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Myburg and his wife are here, what do you say to them after what has happened to their farm, after you attacked it?

MR GQOMFA: I know that they worked very hard to reach at the point where they were. They tried by all means to have that house or to have their property, but what I can say is that out of all that happened, I would like to ask for forgiveness because we were doing that under the past situation, so I'd like them to forgive me, because I was not aiming at them personally because I did not even know them at the time but it was the situation of the time that led us to do what we did. So I'm asking for forgiveness.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Could we have a brief moment. I see Mrs Myburg is indisposed, that she receives attention before we proceed. We will adjourn for 5 minutes for Mrs Myburg to recover.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzer, can we proceed? Is your client able, that she could appreciate what is happening?

MR COETZER: Chairperson, Honourable Members of the Committee, she has indicated to me that she is now prepared to continue and that everything is in order. As it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Coetzer. Mr Mbandazayo, you were still speaking.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, that's the evidence of the applicant. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Coetzer, do you have any questions?&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;&#9; 

MR COETZER: Chairperson, Members of the Committee, only singular aspects. 

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR COETZER: Mr Gqomfa, how did you know that there would be nobody at the house that evening?

MR GQOMFA: As I was able to go to that farm and to meet with the workers of the farm, I monitored the place. I knew that those people were not staying in that farm, maybe they would be there during weekends, but they were not spending the nights there, that is the information I got. We did not know where they were sleeping, but we knew they were not sleeping in that farm house.

MR COETZER: Therefore would you say that your intention was purely to incur damage?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, but we did not want them to be on those farms because when they came here they didn't have any farms, since we all knew the principles of the PAC, we wanted to get our land back. So we had to use force so that they can move from those farms because in those areas, it is where we were planning our attacks. So the principle of the PAC, we were putting it into practice so that we can get back our land, but not that we were attacking specific people, or them specifically, but we were looking at the farm in totality.

MR COETZER: On the farm Fairview there was also an attack. Were you involved in that as well?

MR GQOMFA: I don't know. Which attack are you referring to?

MR COETZER: It is also ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: There was a bakkie or a motor vehicle burned at the farm Fairview. How far is Fairview from Wilgerspruit? I understand - if I heard correctly it's about 8 kilometres from the farm Wilgerspruit which you have testified about just now. Were you involved in another farm attack on a farm about 8 kilometres from there?

MR GQOMFA: No, I was only involved in the one that I gave evidence about.

MR COETZER: Mr Gqomfa, if I could refer you to page 61 of the bundle, is that the house that you burned down?

MR GQOMFA: I don't know whether it is the one that is in this photo, I'm not sure.

MR COETZER: No further questions, thank you Chair.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZER

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer. Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Thank you Chairperson, I just have one question for Mr Gqomfa.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Gqomfa, were you involved in one farm attack in the Lady Grey area?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Adv Sandi, any questions?

ADV SANDI: No thank you Chairman, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: My brother, do you have any questions? Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Gqomfa, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED 

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson that's the evidence of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzer are you going to call for any evidence?

MR COETZER: Chairperson we would like to lead evidence regarding the extent of the damage. However I will leave it to the discretion of the Committee, if the Committee feels that this would be relevant to the proceedings.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Coetzer we've got a full statement by Mr Myburg. I don't know whether anybody would dispute it. It's part of the papers and if it's not disputed, we'll accept the facts set out in that full statement of his, so we wouldn't need oral evidence if nobody is disputing it.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, you have had sight of the full statement made by Mr Myburg. Do you dispute the statement? 

MR MBANDAZAYO: No Chairperson, we don't dispute it. Luckily for me I had sight of it as early as 1998 of the statement so we don't dispute the statement, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Mtanga, do you dispute that statement?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I do not.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. In that event Mr Coetzer, when we have the full statement and not disputed by anybody, we'll accept the statement and we would make our decision around the statement as well, having that statement in mind.

MR COETZER: In that case I will not be leading any witnesses at this stage. I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: While I was speaking to you, it appeared as if Mrs Myburg wished to tell you something. Would you take instruction please?

MR COETZER: Thank you Chair, I will determine what it is. 

&#9;Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee, I have just been informed that the Myburgs do not oppose the amnesty application and that from their side they forgive the applicant for the deeds that he committed. They understand that it was committed with an objective in mind and they also view it from that perspective, therefore there are no feelings of malice on their side toward the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: This Committee is indebted to Mr and Mrs Myburg. The Committee had full sight of the statement. This is devastation to a family that has worked so hard in their lives and in the twilight of their lives they find that they have nothing. The Committee is indebted to them that they have big hearts that despite this, they have come to accept that this was not done against them personally, there was no malice and we say this is what we feel as a Committee, we are achieving something in this reconciliation and I could add to it that Mr Gqomfa also made a statement which was appealing to show the extent he would extend his hand towards the Myburgs. We are indebted to you. The Committee is grateful that at least in its lifespan they would find people who are as good-hearted as they are, even at this juncture when you look at them basically they have nothing. Thank you very much for that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, any submission?

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, just briefly. Chairperson, ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: I don't think it's necessary, do you think it's necessary for him?

CHAIRPERSON: I thought that he's earning his money, but if its not necessary.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it's not necessary. Just, I wanted to highlight just a few things, but Chairperson, it's not necessary in any event. In any event I had thought that I would make my submission when we finished the three of them, ...

CHAIRPERSON: Are the incidents related?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I was saying, Chairperson, because they involved farm attacks, all of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I intended to make a complete submission, but also it was not going to take two minutes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Would your clients be involved in the next application? I'm not sure, Mr Coetzer.

MR COETZER: Chairperson, Members of the Committee, there was an attack on a farm by the name of Fairview during which a bakkie belonging to one of my clients was placed there. I'm not certain who the applicants are with regard to that matter, whether it is one person or two persons, but they are indeed involved then in the next application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR COETZER

NO SUBMISSIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, who would be your next applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it's Mr Kulman, Chairperson, Luvuyo Kenneth Kulman.

NAME:&#9;&#9;&#9;LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM1638/96

MATTER:&#9;&#9;&#9;ATTACK ON FARM IN LADY GREY &#9;&#9;&#9;&#9;AREA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------LUVUYO KENNETH KULMAN: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Kulman ...(end of tape)

MR KULMAN: That is correct.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: And you are 28 years of age and unmarried?

MR KULMAN: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it correct that you passed standard 10 at Cohen High School in Port Elizabeth?

MR KULMAN: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you joined PAC in 1989 through AZANYU?

MR KULMAN: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you underwent military training in Zimbabwe in 1990?

MR KULMAN: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that your first operation was in 1992?

MR KULMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you were also involved in three to four other operations, mostly farm attacks?

MR KULMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you were involved in the farm attack in the Lady Grey farm area?

MR KULMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee about this farm attack in Lady Grey? Where exactly in Lady Grey did this take place?

MR KULMAN: Even though I don't know that area well, the Lady Grey area, but the attack happened near Umkopane area. It was myself, Kleintjie, and Scorpion that were involved. We were going to attack a farm, when we got there, there was nobody and we only used the molotovs. We burned that farm.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Kulman, were there any vehicles on this farm when you did this?

MR KULMAN: No, there were no vehicles in that farm.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Chairperson the name Kleintjie is Tabiso James Makwala, Chairperson, who's deceased.

ADV SANDI: He mentioned a third name, Scorpion. 

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I've just - the name Scorpion Chairperson I've just misplaced, but the problem I have is that it was used by about five people so we did not know who actually was involved with them, but I had five names, but I've just misplaced those five names, I don't know who actually was with them in this attack, but it was used by five people, the name Scorpion.

CHAIRPERSON: So Makwala would be the application that appears on page 49?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee who came up with the idea that this farm should be attacked and who gave this order and who made the reconnaissance of the area as you indicated that you are not well-versed with that area.

MR KULMAN: The person who gave me the order was Ace who was the original Commander in Sterkspruit. 

MR MBANDAZAYO: Who made the reconnaissance of the area?

MR KULMAN: It was Kleintjie.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know where Kleintjie originally lived?

MR KULMAN: I did not know but I heard that he was from Botshabelo.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I've just flipped into my bundle here, I see he says he's from Botshabelo and the place of birth is Thaba N'chu. You wouldn't dispute that?

MR KULMAN: No, I wouldn't.

CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, what was your purpose of going to that farm?

MR KULMAN: It was to attack the farm.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Why you wanted to attack the farm? What purpose were you attacking the farm? What was the reason for you to attack the farm?

MR KULMAN: The reason was to drive the farmers away from our land.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And you say your purpose was to attack the farm. Was your purpose to attack and kill the farmer or what was the real intention?

MR KULMAN: Killing was also part of our operation.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So if the occupants were there, the owners, would they have been killed on that occasion?

MR KULMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it correct that you were armed with 7.65 and also a panga on the day in question?

MR KULMAN: Yes, that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And is it correct that when you arrived at this farm, you checked at the windows and you discovered that there were no people inside?

MR KULMAN: Yes, we did that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you discovered that this place was under renovation?

MR KULMAN: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: And you retreated, but before you did that, you lit the grass and you left the area?

MR KULMAN: Yes, that is correct. They were also damaging the house, even though some molotovs were not effective.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, this is the evidence. Unfortunately we can't say which was the farm, Chairperson, as the applicant was depending on Tabiso Makwala, the people who were from this area, he's from Port Elizabeth, he did not know the area. We can't say which farm was it that was actually attacked by them. We have that problem.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: So, Mr Mbandazayo, because I see he's applying for several things and I think I've got two applications, but this application just relates to that farm which was attacked, where you cannot say with precision the area.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, the other application, the only one which is not yet heard now, is the Kei Mouth one. The Ficksburg one we have already had regarding to him and the other ones, Donny Meyer, Mike Meyer incident, have already been heard.

JUDGE DE JAGER: This farm is in the Lady Grey area?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, this one is in Lady Grey area.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I don't know if that is helpful to you Mr Coetzer, but I'll leave it in your hands.

MR COETZER: I thank you Chairperson and Members of the Committee.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR COETZER: Mr Kulman, did you set alight a barn on the farm in the Lady Grey area?

MR KULMAN: Can you please repeat your question Sir?

MR COETZER: The farm that you set alight in the Lady Grey area, was there a barn in which vehicles were parked, or some form of a shed or garage in which vehicles were parked?

MR KULMAN: I did not see that.

MR COETZER: Very well. You stated that you threw the so-called molotovs in the grass. Was this in the veld or was it in the house?

CHAIRPERSON: It would appear the applicant has problems with the device. I see him just pointing to the device. Could we just hold on for a second Mr Coetzer, let them take care of the device.

MR COETZER: As it pleases the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: I see him nodding his head, Mr Coetzer, but I would ask you to repeat your question.

MR COETZER: I thank the Honourable Committee. Mr Kulman, you made mention that you tossed the so-called molotovs in the grass, was this in the pastures or was it at the house?

MR KULMAN: Some of those, we threw them in the house and I think we threw others in the barn.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You say you threw some in the barn, so I thought you said you don't know whether there was a barn.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I think the interpretation is that he threw it in the grazing land. I think that's the interpretation that is coming out. Correct ...(indistinct) it's a grazing land.

CHAIRPERSON: You are saying that's the interpretation that should come out?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson. Do you follow that Mr Coetzer, that there was just a mistake in the translation? That it was not the barn as we had it, I heard the barn as well. Thank you.

MR COETZER: Indeed Chairperson. I did not want it to be in the barn at this stage. So what was the purpose with tossing the molotovs into the pastures?

MR KULMAN: It was to sabotage.

MR COETZER: Was the intention to burn animals to death?

MR KULMAN: If there were animals there, we would have burned them.

MR COETZER: Very well. Honourable Members of the Committee with the exception of pointing it out to you that some of the cattle of my clients were also killed during this incident, I have nothing further.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR COETZER

ADV SANDI: What was the number? How many were killed?

MR COETZER: If the Honourable Members of the Committee would grant me a moment, it is all in the report, I will just consult it briefly. The number of animals is not mentioned but the extent of the damage is fixed at approximately R28 000, that is on page 55 of the documents in paragraph 3.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kulman, did you read about the damage caused by your attack?

MR KULMAN: I did not read it, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you Mr Coetzer. Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: I have no questions Chairperson, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sandi?

ADV SANDI: No thank you, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager?

JUDGE DE JAGER: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Obviously you don't have any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Is that your case in respect of Mr Kulman?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: For formality - no, no, finish with the instructions.

MR COETZER: Chairperson, Members of the Committee, I would listen to you first and then take instructions. These are not instructions that I want to obtain, but a question that I would like to put to my clients.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I wanted to ask you that, are you going to lead evidence again, or we assume the position we had before?

MR COETZER: Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, this is the same as in case number one with regard to the first applicant, that we will abide by the same position. In other words, if he was involved in any deeds, there is forgiveness and no feelings of malice. The Myburgs have come here today with a clear state of mind, they are not here out of vengeance, but they are here in the name of reconciliation. As it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Coetzer. The sentiment expressed, before I express them again, thank you. Ms Mtanga.

MS MTANGA: Chairperson, I have no questions but if the Committee may allow me, I just want to bring to the attention of the Committee that on page 55 of the bundle, where Mr Hans Myburg's statement is, paragraph 2, where it starts with: "On the 26th of May 1992..." I would just like the Committee to link that incident to Gqomfa and Steven Dolo, that's the farm they attacked and the name of the farm was called Fairview. I'm sorry Chairperson, the first farm in Wilgerspruit and it appears that the farm was attacked twice, the second time it was in May of the same year and that appears in paragraph 3 and this is in respect of the application by Mr ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: It was a neighbouring farm, the neighbouring farm was ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MS MTANGA: Chairperson. according to my Learned Friend it was one farm.

JUDGE DE JAGER: It might have been farmed as a unit but it's a separate ...

MS MTANGA: Operating under the same name, that's what they're saying. Both attacks took place at the Fairview farm Mr Chairperson and this second attack is in respect of the application of Mr Kulman and the two other persons, Makwala and Scorpion.

CHAIRPERSON: I see that their farm was actually attacked but the fire spread over to the neighbours, thank you. Mr Kulman, thank you very much, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, who is your next applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the next and the last applicant is Abel Oupa Khotle.

NAME:&#9;&#9;&#9;ABEL OUPA KHOTLE

APPLICATION NO:&#9;AM1638/97

MATTER:&#9;&#9;&#9;ATTACK ON FARM IN ZASTRON

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ABEL OUPA KHOTLE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. The incident we are now going to deal with is Zastron farm.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: It's in relation to Zastron, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) confirm with Mr Coetzer if he is involved in here.

MR COETZER: Thank you Mr Chairperson for the opportunity. We are not involved in the Zastron incident. May I then request you that we can be excused? As it pleases you.

CHAIRPERSON: Before I do so, Mr Mbandazayo earlier said he wanted to make statements about the farms. I wonder if those statements were for the ears of the Myburgs. Could you just apprise us of the situation?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I was going just to address on the PAC, on the policy regarding the farms, just briefly on that aspect. That's what I wanted to do, Chairperson, that what 

was done by the applicants was indeed in line with the PAC policy and APLA. That's what I wanted to say.

CHAIRPERSON: But was that going to be for the ears of the Myburgs?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson, I wanted them to hear that the applicants indeed, this what they did, was not something personal to them but it was in terms of the whole policy framework of PAC and APLA.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I want you to do it now because I don't want to detain them here unnecessarily.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I - briefly Chairperson, that the terms of the PAC policy and APLA, they were not only to topple the then racist minority regime, but to eventually return the land to majority of the African people. The regarded the South African Defence Force, the South African Police and reservists, farmers and the white homes as bastions and minions of the regime, so hence they were regarded as targets, especially the farmers. They regarded them that they belonged to Commando structures, over and above the fact that they occupied the farms which they had to drive them away from, so as to widen their territorial operational base which was aimed at eventually consolidating the liberated and repossessed land. So it was based on that, their policy, the attack on farms, that they regarded them, you know they belonged to commando structures and also they occupied the vast land which in terms of the PAC policy that their policy was based on the land issue, that the land belongs to the African people, so the farmers were occupying those particular land and the vast majority of the land was in the hands of the farmers, so the policy was to drive away the farmers from those lands, so they have to be attacked and also to cripple the economy, as the country's economy was based on the farmers, so what they did was indeed in line with the PAC policy. That's what I wanted to say, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo Mr Coetzer, in all fairness, Mr and Mrs Myburg, are they still in the position they expressed after the other two applicants, or is there something more they want to say?

MR COETZER: Mr Chairperson, I'm just getting instructions from them. Mr Chairperson, it was placed under my attention that the purpose of my clients being here today was to see if they can get any reparation for what was done to them. They want to know that because of the suffering, they realise that it was done with a purpose, they would just like to know what is going to happen to them now.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Myburg, this Committee only deals with the aspect of amnesty, but there is another Committee that deals with reparation. They made certain recommendations to 

the Government, but the Government will react on that as soon as a final report has been submitted from the TRC. The recommendation that has appeared in this document so far is that everybody will receive on the same level, there will not be reparations because for example a person lost an arm and another person is now paraplegic, it will be paid out on the same basis, an amount that the Government will decide on. It will depend on how many people will apply for reparation and how much money is available. If amnesty is granted in this case and if we find that it is a political deed, in that case we will then say that you will be classified as victims and then you will also have the right to make a claim for the same reparation of the other victims in other cases. That decision of how much or how it will be calculated, will be taken by the Government themselves and not by us.

MR COETZER: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee, there are no further submissions.

CHAIRPERSON: We would once more thank you very much for having attended and made the process of reconciliation a possibility. We would, at this juncture, recuse you because you have heard too much and you have suffered pain and financial loss and proprietary losses, we say, but we should thank you very much and this I say on behalf of the whole Amnesty Committee, you may go well. Thank you very much.

MR COETZER: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson, may I be excused as well?

CHAIRPERSON: I wouldn't detain you as well because I would be unfair to you Mr Coetzer, thank you very much. I recuse the three then, let me put it that way, you and your two clients. Thank you. Mr Mbandazayo ...(indistinct - mike not on) You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khotle, is it correct that you were born in 1971 at Hoopstad in the Free State?

MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you grew up in the Wesselsbron where you did your primary education up to standard 6 in 1984?

MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that in 1985 your family moved to Botshabelo, near Thaba N'chu where you left school in standard 8 due to financial problems?

MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that in 1986 you joined PAC through AZANYU?

MR KHOTLE: Correct Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you left the country through Zimbabwe to Tanzania where you joined APLA and did your military training?

MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that after your military training, you came back inside the country and you were stationed at the Head Office under the command of Enox Zulu and Lettie Yanshoba?

MR KHOTLE: Correct Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that in 1991 you were deployed in Free State?

MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that you were involved in seven operations and you have applied for amnesty for all of them?

MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, Mr Khotle, is it correct that some of the operations you were involved in, involves farm attacks?

MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it also correct that all other incidents in which you were involved in have been heard by the Amnesty Committee except the two Zastron farm attacks, which are the subject of hearing today?

MR KHOTLE: Correct, Chairperson.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Khotle, can you tell the Committee about the Zastron farm attacks and tell the Committee who planned the attacks, how many were you in the first attack and the second attack? Can you start with the first one?

MR KHOTLE: There are two attacks in which I was involved in Zastron. The first one, we were three, it was myself, Roger and Mduna. We had lots of cocktails, with the intention to go and attack at that particular farm. We arrived there and used molotovs. After that - there was no resistance which we encountered during that operation. We retreated back to Transkei. We burned the graze land. After that we crossed to Transkei. I'm not sure of the estimated damage, what I know is that the veld was burned. I'm not quite sure about the damage in the house, because we did not use many molotovs. We threw these molotovs through the windows, inside the house. After that we returned to Transkei.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you first, did you make any reconnaissance of the place and what did you discover during the reconnaissance of the place?

MR KHOTLE: The reconnaissance was done by Kleintjie but on the particular day of the attack, there was a problem because it was at night. The people who were involved in the reconnaissance were not able to do that during that time because it was at night. We decided that we should come back. When we returned we met Comrade Letlapa. Then he was briefed. Then the following day it was late when he returned, but I should be present so that I should lead the attack. All in all we were six and we split into two groups. In my group it was Roger who was involved in the reconnaissance, therefore I was led by him because of his observations during the reconnaissance. Therefore we split into - the second group involved Kleintjie, who was also involved in the reconnaissance. Therefore we executed the operation. The reason for the attack was that firstly it was an area which was used by whites and it is of benefit to the economy of the country because economically the white people there were helping to make the economy stable or grow and they also benefitted individually from that economy. Therefore again, the - secondly the far workers - the farmers were members of the Commando structures and some of them were reservists, therefore we wanted to increase the liberated zones so that when we progress as liberation army, we'll be able to use those places as a springboard for further attacks. That is why we intended to do that operation.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, can you then, Mr Khotle, go to the second farm. Can you be able to specify and say this was this area in Zastron and the other one was in this area in Zastron? Are you able to tell the Committee exactly?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Or perhaps the dates of the attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Or as the Member of the Committee indicates, the dates of the attacks?

MR KHOTLE: I'm not sure of the names of the farms, what I remember is that one is near the river between Transkei and the Republic of South Africa, after you've passed Walazar. From Walazar you turn right. Walazar is in the Transkei and you turn right. It is within the - it is near the river where Walazar was and it bordered South Africa and Transkei. The other one is from the direction - it's near Cuthbert which is in the Transkei. Also from Cuthbert you turn left. That is the explanation I can offer about these farms. The other one is near bluegum, then from there you cross the river, then the farm is just near the river. That is the only explanation I can give in terms of the description of these two farms. Unfortunately I don't have sufficient details to offer this Committee.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you remember the dates, or you can't remember the dates or the year?

CHAIRPERSON: Page 35 gives an indication, could you confirm it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Page 35 Chairperson, both of them I agree they were in 1992, Chairperson. I wondered whether he remembers maybe at the beginning or at the end, the other one, when was the first one and when the second one. Are you able to do that Mr Khotle?

MR KHOTLE: Yes, it was 1991, but I'm not sure of the months. 

CHAIRPERSON: Let's say you were also involved in the Ficksburg attacks, let's take it from there because there you are able to say, to estimate and say, mid to late 1992. Now the Zastron attacks and the Ficksburg attack, which one took place first?

MR KHOTLE: Zastron operations happened first.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And was it before the Wesselsbron operation?

MR KHOTLE: The Wesselsbron operation was in 1993.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct) round about 1991, 1992, is that correct, you operated in Zastron? You're not sure of the dates.

MR KHOTLE: In 1992 I was in Zastron.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Okay.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you then proceed? Go to the second incident Mr Khotle, just please tell the Committee about the second incident. How many were you and how were you armed?

MR KHOTLE: 

&#9;&#9;In this second operation we were five, it was myself, Scorpion Totina is one person, the third person was King, the fourth one was Roger, the fifth person was Kleintjie. The reconnaissance for that attack was done by me. There was a problem. There was a house, supposed to be occupied by the owner of the farm and there were also houses supposed to be occupied by the employees and there was also a place where the cows were fed. Now that was the - there was a problem. We noticed that either way, the owners of the farm do not live there. They took Africans and they made them live in that house that was supposed to be occupied by them. As a result we decided, yes, even if it was occupied by an African, but it qualified to be the target. This does not mean Africans were automatically targets because they were in that house, we thought they were being used as shields and we had to minimise so that at the end the operation is carried, but there are no injuries, that is referring to the farm workers, so that not one of them gets injured. 

&#9;&#9;I was armed with a 7.65. We had a stun gun as well and we had Molotovs and we had grenades that were not functioning well, the mechanism was not working well, but we took them anyway, so that at the time of throwing the molotovs, the information we do not have is correct, we'd throw them in the fire and they will explode through the help of the fire. 

&#9;&#9;So we left then for the farm and on our arrival, that is when we approached, many dogs approached us. We advanced towards them and they shied away to another room, where we threw the molotovs and people screamed inside, they cried. Now that was the impression, the impression that I got out of that was that the people who were crying were the farm workers. Now I concluded that they were being used as shields, the owners of the house were not in the house, they might have been living in town. &#9;Now during the course of throwing these molotovs, I took out another instruction. I said the throwing of molotovs should be stopped, only to find that they had been thrown already and then we retreated. Kenny, who has since died, had the grenades and the sabotaged hand grenades. The initial instruction was not to throw the grenade in case it is noticed that the occupiers of the house are Africans, but during this whole incident, it happened that he dropped the grenade. 

&#9;&#9;We thereafter retreated and then we burned the veld and we went back to the Transkei. I wanted to know, at a certain point, who was left where and whether there were any casualties and that is where I learned that Kenny dropped that sabotaged hand grenade and that was the end of the operation.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Was anybody injured by this hand grenade?

MR KHOTLE: It did not explode Sir and to my knowledge it never exploded.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Will I be correct to say at the present moment you are still standing trial for those farm attacks?

MR KHOTLE: After being granted amnesty - no, no, I was granted amnesty and the charges were withdrawn.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it - oh you were never charged for these two incidents?

MR KHOTLE: No, no, I'm sorry, I was confusing them with the Ficksburg issues, I was not charged on these two.

CHAIRPERSON: But doesn't your application somewhere say charges about the farm attacks and a date has been given to when the matter has been postponed? If you have regard to page 37, no, no ...

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if I may explain, it was the Ficksburg incidents in which the amnesty hearing has already been heard and he was granted amnesty and the charges were subsequently withdrawn after he was granted amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. It was a little confusing when I read it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: These two, he was never charged for these two instances Chairperson. That's the evidence, Chairperson, thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Mtanga, any questions?

MS MTANGA: Chairperson I have one or two questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS MTANGA: Mr Khotle, at what stage did you realise that there were farm employees living in the main house? Was it during your reconnaissance or after you - at the time you went to attack?

MR KHOTLE: No, I said during the reconnaissance I became aware that this house could be occupied by Africans. Now at the time of issuing out orders within the unit, I made them aware that it could happen that that house, the owners are not residing in the house, they are somewhere in town and the house is occupied by Africans and I said, as a precautionary measure, in case it's an African staying in that house, I was not certain, but all indications pointed to the fact that it was Africans staying in that house, I said to them: "In case it's an African staying in that house, the use of hand grenade would be cancelled and even if we throw the molotovs, during the course they would be restrained: and I did restrain them from throwing the molotovs but it was already late, they had been all thrown.

MS MTANGA: Your decision not to throw the hand grenades and to only throw the molotovs, how was it going to ensure that the people inside, if they happen to be farm employees, would not be injured?

MR KHOTLE: There are two sides in the whole process of the struggle and there had been instances where Africans were affected. In this case we - yes, it pained us a lot to notice that the Africans occupied that house and while the matter of the fact was not to really accommodate them there, they were being used as shock absorbers, so to say. That is why then I'm saying it was one way for them to learn, but then we had to avoid a lesson - we had to teach a lesson but we had to avoid some situations. In other words, we had to teach them that they allowed themselves to be the shock absorbers on behalf of the europeans. It was not a question of, that they were intended and at the end it was expected that there should be fatalities, no it wasn't.

MS MTANGA: Mr Khotle, how can you say when a farmer allows his employees to use his main house, he's using them? Why are you saying that he was using them, when he allowed them to use his house?

MR KHOTLE: There was an awareness already among the farming community that APLA was stepping up with its activities and most of the farmers decided then that the best way was to live in towns and at the same time using the farm workers.

MS MTANGA: I have no further questions, Chairperson.

 

 

 

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS MTANGA 

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Mtanga. Adv Sandi?

ADV SANDI: I think I don't have a question.

CHAIRPERSON: Surely you don't have any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: That concludes your case with Mr Khotle?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Khotle, you are excused.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, I've just consulted with my brothers. We don't need to hear any submissions. That refers to your as well Ms Mtanga. Does this bring us to the conclusion of these hearings?

MS MTANGA: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khotle, if you are still - oh yes, you're still here. The Committee reserves its decision because you have spoken of some applications you have made, you should be aware that the decision should be in writing and it would be done as soon as possible in respect of what it did and it goes for all your comrades as well. Mr Mbandazayo, we do reserve this one. You would be informed in due course just to be on the safe side. 

&#9;This brings us to the conclusion of the hearings here. Firstly I want to thank the members of Correctional Services. They gave us an outstanding service. I think it's the first that I had such prompt attendance of inmates brought by the Department of Correctional Services. This is highly appreciated. Should we call upon you again to do the same, please know that your duties are appreciated by this Committee and you are making our job easier. I want to thank the Church for having made this wonderful venue available to us to conduct these hearings. We are very grateful to the church and the personnel they have made available and I must say for also spoiling us with the food we have had. I think I have picked up a few kilogrammes which I will have problems in shedding. I want to thank you Mr Mbandazayo. You had the longest serving in these hearings. Thank you for your assistance. Ms Mtanga, thank you for the wonderful work you have done, it was so easy to follow. Thank you very much and we say, you keep it up and that goes to show that we have people who care in the Amnesty Committee.

&#9;You know there are people you seldom see who are caged in boxes on my left. They do a wonderful job. You could remember at some time I would say to the applicants: "Please slow down because they've got to catch up with you" and we seldom thank them. I want to say thank you very much. And to everybody who has shown interest in these hearings, we thank you very much, your attendance is highly appreciated.

&#9;This hearing is adjourned but that does not say you would not have something to eat. Please have it even though you'll pick up kilos like me. Charmaine I'm always with you and I'm always saying privately thank you, but let me say it in public. Thank you very much for your assistance to us. We're adjourned.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Perhaps it's time that we should thank the Chairman too for leading this hearing and the way he did it. Thank you very much Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you my brother.

HEARING ADJOURNS

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