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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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 &#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;17TH NOVEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA

INCIDENT: MURDER AND ROBBERY OF PEACOCK &#9;&#9;&#9; TSOSANE

DAY :&#9;2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Today we'll be starting with the hearing of the applications of Messrs Motlokoa, Mosia, Mofokeng, Sera and Mohomane. 

&#9;Before we start I'd like to just introduce the panel to you. On my right is Doctor Tsotsi, he is an attorney and comes from Port Elizabeth. On my left is Mr Sibanyoni, he is also an attorney and comes from Pretoria. I am Selwyn Miller, I am a Judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of the High Court there.

&#9;I ask the legal representatives please to just place themselves on record.

MR MHLABA: I am Booker Mhlaba, I'm appearing on behalf of the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba.

MR SESELE: I am Lesane Sesele, I'm appearing on behalf of the Mosebi family.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sesele. 

CHAIRPERSON EXPLAINS TRANSLATION EQUIPMENT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Before we proceed with the applications of the applicants scheduled for today, I have Mr Chairman, Mr Mokoena who was a co-applicant in the application which was heard yesterday, and for some reasons he was not brought to the hearings.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's right. Thank you, Mr Mhlaba. What is the position there with that matter?

MR MHLABA: The position with Mr Mokoena, he wants to formally withdraw his application for amnesty. The basis for his withdrawal is that he did not commit the act at all, he denies involvement in the crime.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, Mr Mhlaba. It is noted that Mr Mokoena who was the 5th applicant in yesterday's hearing has formally withdrawn his application, thank you very much.

APPLICATION OF TSHOKOLO JOSEPH MOKOENA - APPLICATION NO. AM 0016/96: FORMALLY WITHDRAWN

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma, you're also placing yourself on record as the Evidence Leader?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. For the record, my name is Zuko Mapoma, the Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mhlaba, with regard to Mr Mokoena, you have had the opportunity to properly consult with him?

MR MHLABA: Certainly, Mr Chairman, Mr Mokoena is sitting beside me and he can confirm what has been said on his behalf.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I accept without hesitation what you've told us, but if he wishes to confirm it he may but it's not really necessary, thank you.

MR MHLABA: May he then be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Thank you, Mr Mokoena.

TSHOKOLO JOSEPH MOKOENA EXCUSED

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. In this bundle we have two applications ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Two incidents, yes.

MR MHLABA: We have two incidents, and I would want to first deal with the incident involving Molahleki Patrick Motlokoa who is the only applicant in this very incident. May I call him?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Mr Mhlaba.

&#9;Are your full names, Molahleki Patrick Motlokoa?

MOLAHLEKI PATRICK MOTLOKOA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA: Thank you.

&#9;Mr Motlokoa, is it correct that you were born during 1955, the 11th month on the 9th day at Bethlehem?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: You are the applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty in respect an offence of murder and robbery.

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: And the person who died in this incident is Peacock Tsosane, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: And you are serving a prison term in respect of the very offence, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: During the period or shortly before you stood trial for this matter you were hospitalised for some sickness, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Can you briefly explain to the Committee what was wrong with you?

MR MOTLOKOA: I was attacked by a minor stroke, then I was taken to the hospital.

INTERPRETER: The speaker is not audible, can the mike be drawn closer to him?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the interpreter is saying that he can't hear you, could you please speak a little bit louder and closer to the microphone, thank you.

MR MOTLOKOA: I was taken to the hospital in Harrismith. I don't remember the date. I was hospitalised for three days. I am not able to remember well what was the problem with me.

MR MHLABA: You have drawn to my attention that as a result of this condition you have a loss of memory to a certain extent, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: You are making an application for amnesty and the reason for you doing so is that the offences which you have committed were committed with a political objective, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Did you on the 19th of May 1993, belong to any political organisation?

MR MOTLOKOA: I was a member of the SDU of the ANC.

MR MHLABA: I want you as far as you can recall, to explain to the Committee when you became a member of the SDUs and how you came to join the SDUs and the ANC.

MR MOTLOKOA: I started being a supporter of the ANC in 1983. I was a card-carrying member of the ANC in 1990, then in 1992 I joined the SDU in Phuthaditjhaba.

MR MHLABA: I want you Mr Motlokoa to take us through the incident which occurred on the 19th of May 1993, in which incident the deceased Peacock Tsosane was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, Mr Mhlaba, I believe the interpreter has got a problem with the sound, if you could just ...(inaudible). 

&#9;Does that question have to be repeated or was it translated? Did you hear the question, Mr Motlokoa?

MR MOTLOKOA: ...(no English translation)

MR MHLABA: Mr Motlokoa, I invite you to take us through the incident which happened on the 19th of May 1993, in which incident Hadibonoe Peacock Tsosane was killed.

MR MOTLOKOA: ...(no English translation). We were armed with two 9mm. While we were patrolling we met the deceased Tsosane ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Motlokoa, before you proceed, I think we missed a little bit of the translation. Who were you with? It didn't come through.

MR MOTLOKOA: I was with John Kubeka. We went to Phillip Mosia's place together with John Kubeka. When we arrived at his place together with Phillip Mosia, we went out to patrol. It was about a kilometre from Mosia's place. That is when we met the deceased, he had stopped a car there trying to remove some stones on the road.

&#9;I approached him with my firearm, I wanted him to give me his weapon because I knew him, that he was a policeman. He refused to give me his weapon. He tried to grab my weapon, so we were fighting over my firearm and then John shot in the air. He was trying to scare him. When John Kubeka realised that he was a policeman he decided to shoot him and then we left.

&#9;The deceased was with another woman in the car, and then we locked that woman in the boot of the same car they were driving and then we ran away from there.

MR MHLABA: Mr Motlokoa you've told the Committee that you went out patrolling, can you tell us more about this patrolling, what were you looking for and what were the reasons for the patrol?

MR MOTLOKOA: There was a rally during the day which was hosted by the SRC college of education. During that rally the police arrived and the students were chased away. That night we decided to attack the police so that we could disarm them. 

MR MHLABA: You have told the Committee of you intending to disarm the police officer and to take his firearm, what was the reason for this mission?

MR MOTLOKOA: The reason for disarming them, I was going to take these weapons to give them to the SDU.

MR MHLABA: You also mentioned that your companion shot once to scare the deceased off, are you telling the Committee that your main aim was to get hold of the weapon which the deceased was in possession of as opposed to killing him?

MR MOTLOKOA: We were intending to kill him because he was our enemy.

MR MHLABA: Why do you say he was your enemy, can you explain more?

MR MOTLOKOA: My uncle's child here in Welkom was taken by the police and he was beaten and as a result he was taken to the hospital. We tried to report that case but we don't know what happened about that case. That is when we realised that the policemen were also our enemies because my uncle's son was also a comrade and in many instances the police were always in the company of the IFP people, killing people. That is when we realised that they are also our enemies.

MR MHLABA: While a member of the SDUs, was it at any stage mentioned that the police are legitimate targets of the SDUs and your political organisation?

MR MOTLOKOA: Our commander of the SDU told us that the police and the soldiers were legitimate targets.

MR MHLABA: And was it ever mentioned or resolved in any of your meetings that the police and the soldiers being legitimate targets should be disarmed so that the arms can be used to protect the people by the SDUs?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: So is it your case, Mr Motlokoa, that in killing the deceased, Peacock Tsosane, you were furthering the interests of your political organisation and ensuring the smooth operation of the Self Defence Units?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Do you have anything to add in support of your application for amnesty?

MR MOTLOKOA: I don't understand your question.

MR MHLABA: Other than what you have already told the Committee, do you have any other thing to add in support of your application?

MR MOTLOKOA: I just want to ask for forgiveness from the families of the deceased because what I did happened during that time when we were fighting, it was war. 

MR MHLABA: Mr Motlokoa, I want to take you through your application - and I refer the Committee to page 5 of the paginated bundle, in paragraph 11(b) of your application you are requested to answer, it says:

&#9;&#9;"If so, state the particulars of such orders and approval and the date thereof and if known, the name and address of persons who gave such order or approval."

And you indicated in your form that a programme of action and again:

&#9;&#9;"Peter Mokaba, ANC Youth League leader."

Can you explain to the Committee what you meant by this?

MR MOTLOKOA: What I'm saying here is that the person who was training us told us that what we are doing was known to Peter Mokaba and also Chris Hani knew about our operations, that we have to attack the police and the soldiers.

MR MHLABA: So by this you were not implying that you got direct orders from Peter Mokaba to engage in this very transaction?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is not so.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chair, that concludes the evidence-in-chief.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba. Mr Sesele, do you have any questions to ask this witness?

MR SESELE: No questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Motlokoa, after you shot dead the policeman, what became of the car which the policeman was driving?

MR MOTLOKOA: We left the car at that spot.

MR MAPOMA: With the woman companion locked in the boot of that car?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Did you not attack the woman?

MR MOTLOKOA: No, we did not.

MR MAPOMA: Is it your evidence that the woman was never injured as a result of your action?

MR MOTLOKOA: She was never injured.

MR MAPOMA: Then as you intended to take the firearm, did you in fact take the firearm from the police after you shot him dead?

MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, we took the firearm after shooting him.

MR MAPOMA: Why actually did you kill this policeman when you had already received the firearm?

MR MOTLOKOA: We killed him first and then took his firearm.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you kill him?

MR MOTLOKOA: It was our instruction to kill and to disarm the police.

MR MAPOMA: And you say by killing that policeman you were furthering the aims and objections of the African National Congress? Is it your evidence that the ANC had a policy in 1993 to kill the policemen?

MR MOTLOKOA: I don't understand your question.

MR MAPOMA: You are saying, Mr Motlokoa, that by killing that policeman you were furthering the aims and objectives of the African National Congress, hence you say your action was politically motivated. Now my question is, did the ANC in 1993 have a policy to kill the policemen?

MR MOTLOKOA: It was not the police of the ANC but there were other operation which we had to carry out, which included killing the police.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by that, Motlokoa?

MR MOTLOKOA: What I mean is that is was not the policy to kill, it was just to cut the strength of apartheid.

MR MAPOMA: Let me put this question the other way around. Was the action of killing those policemen in line with the policy of the ANC, of killing that policeman?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct, it was in line with the policy of the ANC.

MR MAPOMA: Why do you say so?

MR MOTLOKOA: Even before while we were trained by Justice he told us it was the only way to show the previous government that it was not prepared for the changes.

MR MAPOMA: Now, was that message going to be delivered by killing the police?

MR MOTLOKOA: That's correct, the apartheid government would realise that we are still fighting.

MR MAPOMA: As I understand it the ANC suspended the armed struggle in 1990 if I'm not mistaken, I'm subject to correction. Now this action of your was an armed action perpetrated by yourselves and the ANC at that time had already suspended the armed struggle, how do you explain your action in the circumstances?

MR MOTLOKOA: I don't understand your question well.

CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Mapoma is putting to you is that by the 19th of May 1993, the ANC had suspended the armed struggle and now he's asking, taking that into account how do you explain your actions on that day, killing the policeman, taking into account the fact that the ANC had in fact suspended its armed struggle by that stage?

MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, it had suspended the armed struggle but we as the members of the SDU, we have our own operations that we were still carrying out.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that your SDU carried out its own operations in conflict with ANC policy, contrary to the ANC policy, despite the fact that you were an ANC Self Defence Unit?

MR MOTLOKOA: No, that is not so. We got our instructions from our commander.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who was your commander?

MR MOTLOKOA: We only knew him by the name of Justice.

MR MAPOMA: Where was Justice, I mean Commander Justice from?

MR MOTLOKOA: He was from the place known as Tabakuseo.

MR MAPOMA: How far is that place from your place?

MR MOTLOKOA: It can be about six kilometres from the place where I stayed.

MR MAPOMA: And who was your local commander of the SDU?

MR MOTLOKOA: He was the only commander in our place. We only had one commander and that was him.

MR MAPOMA: And he did not specifically instruct you to go and conduct that operation, is it not so?

MR MOTLOKOA: He gave us that instruction.

MR MAPOMA: No, no, no, let me get you correctly. Are you saying Justice instructed you that on that day you must go and look for a policeman and kill him and disarm him?

MR MOTLOKOA: He didn't say specifically in that day.

MR MAPOMA: What actually did he say, what actually did he order you to do?

MR MOTLOKOA: His instruction was that we should go out and kill the policemen and take their weapons.

MR MAPOMA: So do I understand you to mean that even if you managed to get that weapon from this policeman you would kill him anyway?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is correct, we would kill him.

MR MAPOMA: Why do you say Peter Mokaba and Chris Hani knew about your operations?

MR MOTLOKOA: Justice told us during our training that Peter Mokaba and Chris Hani knew about these operations, they were well aware of our operations.

MR MAPOMA: Why did you not mention this Justice in your application?

MR MOTLOKOA: I completed this form with my co-prisoner in jail.

CHAIRPERSON: But that doesn't answer the question. If you 

take a look at paragraph 11(b), which you've already been 

referred to, there's a specific question which says: 

"If so, state particulars of such order or approval and 

the date thereof and it known, the name and address 

of the person who gave such order or approval."

Now you've quite clearly said to us that you got the approval for this killing from Justice, your commander. Now the question asked by Mr Mapoma is, why didn't you mention Justice's name in response to that question? It doesn't matter whether you were filling in the question together with co-prisoners or with whoever it was, you knew what happened, why didn't you mention Justice in response to that question?

MR MOTLOKOA: Like I've already said that I was filling this form with my co-prisoner. I was explaining to him what was happening during our training, how Justice used to explain instructions to us. I was never given instructions by Peter Mokaba.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's the question, that's exactly why Mr Mapoma asked you the question. If you were never given instructions by Peter Mokaba, why do you put his name there and not Justice who you say gave you the instructions?

MR MOTLOKOA: I was explaining to him, I was talking about Justice, that is the person who was helping me to fill in these forms. I told him about the training that we got from Justice. He used to talk about Peter Mokaba and Chris Hani who were well aware of such instructions and operations.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Motlokoa, who wrote down the answers?

MR MOTLOKOA: His name is Lengwabala.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Motlokoa, I put it to you that the action of killing the deceased person, the policeman in May 1993, was not in line with the ANC policy. What do you say to that?

MR MOTLOKOA: What I'm saying is that it was in line with the policy of the ANC. We were told so by Justice. He used to teach us about that, that the policeman is your enemy, you don't have to trust him. 

MR MAPOMA: Yes, the point is, even F W de Klerk, the State President of the then government was not trusted by the ANC because the apartheid government was the enemy of the people but the ANC did not have a policy to kill the leaders of that government, do you understand that? That the police were the enemy of the people does not necessarily mean that the ANC had a policy that those people must be killed. That's what I'm putting across to you, what do you say to that?

MR MOTLOKOA: I do not disagree with you, not all the policeman were killing people, but how would you know that this one supports apartheid or he does not?

MR MAPOMA: No further questions, thank Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness? Sorry, before I hand it over to you, do you have any re-examination, Mr Mhlaba, arising out of questions that have been put?

MR MHLABA: No, no re-examination, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, Doctor Tsotsi?

DR TSOTSI: Do I understand you correctly to say that while you were struggling with the deceased for the possession of your gun, John Kubeka shot the deceased?

MR MOTLOKOA: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: So you yourself did not shoot the deceased at all?

MR MOTLOKOA: I wanted to shoot the deceased ...(intervention)

DR TSOTSI: ...(indistinct) whether you actually shot him.

MR MOTLOKOA: No, Sir.

DR TSOTSI: Now you say that John Kubeka shot him when he discovered that the deceased was a policeman, is that right?

MR MOTLOKOA: I don't understand the question correctly, Sir.

DR TSOTSI: You say that John Kubeka shot the deceased.

MR MOTLOKOA: Yes.

DR TSOTSI: When he discovered that the deceased was a policeman, is that correct?

MR MOTLOKOA: No, not when he discovered that he was a policeman.

DR TSOTSI: Okay, why did he shoot the deceased?

MR MOTLOKOA: He shot him because he was a police officer and that we wanted to disarm him.

DR TSOTSI: But how did you know that?

MR MOTLOKOA: We knew him because we were with him in the same area.

DR TSOTSI: And where is he now, John Kubeka?

MR MOTLOKOA: He's there.

DR TSOTSI: And the lady who was with the deceased ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When you say: "He is there", where? Just for record purposes.

MR MOTLOKOA: He is inside this hall.

MR SIBANYONI: What is his other name?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is John.

MR SIBANYONI: Is he one of the applicants?

MR MOTLOKOA: I don't know but I know that he was notified to be present.

DR TSOTSI: Was he charged for shooting the deceased?

MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, he was charged.

DR TSOTSI: And what was the outcome of the case?

MR MOTLOKOA: He was sentenced for death and seven years in prison.

DR TSOTSI: Was he charged together with you?

MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, he was my co-accused.

DR TSOTSI: Was there anybody else who was your co-accused apart from him?

MR MOTLOKOA: Phillip Mosela was not found guilty.

DR TSOTSI: Now you've also told us that the police, you didn't like the police because they had dispersed a meeting of the students and that on the day that they did so you made a decision, you decided that you were going to go for the police.

MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that is correct.

DR TSOTSI: So you were actually motivated by personal hatred or spite against the police?

MR MOTLOKOA: The way they were harassing the people and torturing the people, those who were fighting for their human rights.

DR TSOTSI: You also told us that they beat up your uncle's son. They took your uncle's child to Welkom here and beat ...(indistinct)

MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that happened in the previous years before this incident.

DR TSOTSI: It was one of the reasons why you didn't like the police?

MR MOTLOKOA: One of the reasons was that they were torturing the people who were fighting for human rights and for freedom.

DR TSOTSI: I'm talking now about your uncle's son. You decided that because the police had mistreated your uncle's son you were going to go for them?

MR MOTLOKOA: No, Sir. When we reported this case, when we started to report this case, ...(end of tape)

DR TSOTSI: You say they didn't pay attention to the case, and then what did you decide about it? What did you decide to do as a result of the failure of the police to take up the case?

MR MOTLOKOA: We went to the lawyer to complain and because of lack of funds we did not continue.

DR TSOTSI: Now you say on the night after the police had dispersed a meeting of the SRC, a meeting convened by the students SRC, you say that:

&#9;&#9;"That night we decided to attack the police."

Is that correct?

MR MOTLOKOA: Because they harassed the SRC during the day. 

DR TSOTSI: And that is - was that before or after the shooting of the deceased?

MR MOTLOKOA: It is after they've harassed the SRC that we made a decision to attack the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Motlokoa, who put up the stones, the sort of roadblock?

MR MOTLOKOA: They were put there by the members of the SRC. They put them there during the day and some other items.

MR SIBANYONI: As you were patrolling the area, what was the purpose, what were you looking for?

MR MOTLOKOA: We were actually looking for the police because we knew that they will also patrol that area.

MR SIBANYONI: And if you would find the police, what would you do with them?

MR MOTLOKOA: We will shoot him and disarm him.

MR SIBANYONI: Where is Justice today?

MR MOTLOKOA: I've never seen him since I was arrested.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the deceased dressed in uniform at the time of the killing?

MR MOTLOKOA: No, he was not dressed in uniform.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he driving a marked police vehicle?

MR MOTLOKOA: He was driving a police car with numberplates indicating that it was a police van.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you said that Mr John Kubeka was here, whereabout is he sitting?

MR MOTLOKOA: He is sitting there.

CHAIRPERSON: On the stage?

MR MOTLOKOA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is the person otherwise known as "Shooter"?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is John.

CHAIRPERSON: Had you been drinking liquor that day or evening prior to the shooting?

MR MOTLOKOA: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that when you came across this vehicle with the deceased removing the stones from the road, it was just by chance that when you happened to get there the deceased was out of the vehicle removing stones that were blocking his path of travel on the road?

MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, we saw that as an opportunity because he was already out of his van.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you see I'm looking at the bundle of papers that are before us and at page 87 thereof there is a statement, I think it's made by yourself, which was used in the trial. Now reading at the bottom of this page you say:

&#9;&#9;"I left with them. We were now a distance from Mabote's place when we saw stones in the road. When we got to the stones Shooter said we should then get other stones and put them in the road to block the road."

Did that happen at all?

MR MOTLOKOA: We never removed the stones in the road.

CHAIRPERSON: What I'm saying is, in this statement it is said that you got other stones to put on the road.

MR MOTLOKOA: Stones were already in the road. There were about two stones which were already removed and then we put other stones because we were trying to block the road.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't then just by coincidence come across the deceased when he was removing stones from the road, because now you say that you put stones in the road. You must have put stones in the road and then waited for some vehicle to come, not so?

MR MOTLOKOA: When we arrived the stones were already there and the deceased's car was already there.

CHAIRPERSON: But didn't you just tell me now that you put two stones in the road? You said there were two stones there and you put stones in the road? Didn't you just say that a moment ago?

MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, we put two stones in the road and then we moved on.

CHAIRPERSON: Now did you put those two stones in the road before you killed the deceased or you and your companions killed the deceased or after you killed him?

MR MOTLOKOA: We put the stones there before we killed the deceased.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you say you moved on, where did you move onto?

MR MOTLOKOA: We didn't move on for a long distance from the place where we put the stones, we were still near that place where we put the stones.

MR SIBANYONI: Did the deceased stop at the place where you put the stones?

MR MOTLOKOA: Yes, that's correct, he stopped there but by that time we were already away from that place and then we turned back and that is when we attacked him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know why your co-perpetrators, John Kubeka and Phillip Mosia haven't applied for amnesty in respect of this incident or don't you know? 

MR MOTLOKOA: What I know is that Mosia has not applied for amnesty because he was acquitted. Kubeka has applied for amnesty but we are in different prisons.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just once again to refer to this statement that I've referred to earlier on, page 87. You said that:

&#9;&#9;"On the day in question I was at home with my friend, Phillip Mabote at Beirut. We were sitting there busy drinking the liquor."

Did that happen?

MR MOTLOKOA: That is not correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you at your trial raise the question of you doing this, performing these acts, this action as a member of the SDUs?

MR MOTLOKOA: No, I did not.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MR MOTLOKOA: Because I wanted to be acquitted so that I can continue with such operations.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you put the woman in the boot of the vehicle?

MR MOTLOKOA: We put her there so that if she was also a police, she should also die.

CHAIRPERSON: So you put her in the vehicle with the intention of her ultimately dying, is that what you're saying?

MR MOTLOKOA: That's correct. We thought that she was also a policeman, policewoman. 

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ever think of any of you, or decide to try to take the motor vehicle?

MR MOTLOKOA: No, Chairperson. Once again I just read from the statement just for your comment, page 88:

&#9;&#9;"I closed the boot ..."

That's after putting the woman in it.

&#9;&#9;"Shooter took the key. He wanted to start the motor vehicle. Maboti said we should run away as there was another car coming from behind."

What do you say to that?

MR MOTLOKOA: I closed the boot of the car, that is true and then we left, we ran away.

CHAIRPERSON: When were you arrested in relation to the commission of the offence?

MR MOTLOKOA: I was arrested after two weeks because then I had already been arrested for another case related to gold.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was the deceased's firearm at the time of your arrest?

MR MOTLOKOA: I hid the weapon at my place.

CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you hand it over to your commander?

MR MOTLOKOA: I went at our meeting place the following day but he did not arrive until I came back to Welkom, because I was supposed to come and contact my lawyers in connection with the other case related to gold.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you went out that evening, were you armed, the evening that the deceased was killed?

MR MOTLOKOA: That's correct, I was armed.

CHAIRPERSON: What were you armed with?

MR MOTLOKOA: I was armed with a 9mm.

CHAIRPERSON: And Kubeka?

MR MOTLOKOA: He was armed with a 765.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mosia?

MR MOTLOKOA: He was not armed.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MR MHLABA: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele?

MR SESELE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

ADV MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Motlokoa, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down. 

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, how do you want to do this, are you going to call other applicants now or do you want to deal with this matter as a separate issue and conclude it?

MR MHLABA: Please, Mr Chairman, I would prefer to deal with this matter as a separate issue, then I will start with the other incident of June. Kubeka is in the hall here and my instructions are that Kubeka has applied for amnesty but we tried to get through with the relevant people in Cape Town and they say they cannot find his form, they've got no records that he has applied.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR MHLABA: And that will conclude the evidence of the applicant in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele, I take it you're not involved in this particular incident at all. Mr Mapoma, any further evidence?

ADV MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, there is no further evidence in this particular matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to address us now, Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA ADDRESSES COMMITTEE: I can briefly address the Committee. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;The applicant has submitted an application which I submit is in accordance with the enabling legislation. The applicant states that he committed this very offence with a political objective. 

&#9;There is evidence here which remains undisputed, that he was a member of the SDU which was the formation of the ANC and there is further evidence that he was given instructions, or it was collective resolutions taken in their meetings that police and the members of the South African Defence Force were legitimate targets of the people and their political organisation.

&#9;Mr Chairman, it was further stated that it was resolved that in order to protect the people and the community, they needed to find arms. And the place where they could get those arms was to disarm the police and the members of the South African Defence Force.

CHAIRPERSON: And kill them?

MR MHLABA: And kill them. 

&#9;So it is on those basis, Mr Chairman, that I believe that the applicant here had the motive which is political. It may appear in the eyes of the Committee that in view of the fact that the African National Congress had already suspended its armed struggle, the conduct of the applicant here was not justified but however, Mr Chairman, it is a very well-known fact that people who participated in political activities at various levels, especially in the level in which the applicant was participating, were not upraised of the decision of the National Executive Committee of the ANC. &#9;I can further add that depending on the sophistication of the actual perpetrator, people were not even keeping updated about the events which are well publicised in the media. The Committee should, Mr Chairman I submit, view the conduct of the applicant to befit his circumstances, his level of sophistication and the level in which he participated in the formations.

&#9;So it is my respectful submission that a political objective can be sometimes unreasonable but it remains such. It is therefore my submission that the applicant has committed this offence with a political objective and consequently entitled to amnesty. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba. Mr Mapoma, do you have any submissions to make?

ADV MAPOMA: No, Chairperson, no submissions.

NO SUBMISSIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much, Mr Mhlaba, Mr Mapoma. I see now that it is quarter past eleven. I think this would then be a convenient time for us to take the tea adjournment and after the tea adjournment we will commence with the other applications that are before us. Thank you, we'll take the short tea adjournment.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, with regard to the previous application, Mr Motlokoa's application, we'll reserve the decision and a written decision will be handed down in the near future.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;17TH NOVEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;ISAAC MOHOMANE

APPLICATION NO: AM 1347/96

INCIDENT: MURDER OF TWO POLICEMEN - MOKETE &#9;&#9; BENJAMIN MAKAU & TSELANE JACOBINA &#9;&#9; MOSEBI

DAY :&#9;2

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ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we will now proceed with the remaining applications which I had mentioned earlier. Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chairman. This application is -there are four applicants involved, Phillip Mosia, Jack Mofokeng, Solomon Sera and Isaac Mohomane. I'm acting on behalf of all four applicants. I would want to commence by calling the last applicant being, Isaac Mohomane.

ISAAC MOHOMANE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Mohomane, you are the applicant in this matter, is that correct?

MR MOHOMANE: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: And your application is in respect of an offence which was committed on the 5th of June 1993, where two police officers namely, Mokete Benjamin Makau and Tselane Jacobina Mosebi were killed, is that correct?

MR MOHOMANE: That's correct.

MR MHLABA: Is it correct that you were born during 1968 on the 8th of June in Fouriesburg?

MR MOHOMANE: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: You are applying for amnesty because the offences which you have committed were committed with a political objective, is that correct?

MR MOHOMANE: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: You have been convicted in respect of the offences in question and you are presently serving a prison term, is that correct?

MR MOHOMANE: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: As you allege that the offences were committed with a political objective, are you able to explain to the Committee which political organisation you were a member of, you were a member of during the period June 1993, in particular on the 3rd of June, and how you joined the organisation and when and level of your involvement in such organisation?

MR MOHOMANE: At the time I was a student in high school, I was a member of COSAS. After completing school in 1990 I was a fully fledged member of the ANC, then I was recruited to the Self Defence Unit by comrade Simon Mofokeng and Khumalo.

MR MHLABA: I want you to tell us about the incident of the 5th of June 1993 and how the killing of the two police officers who were executed, were planned and executed.

MR MOHOMANE: Before I can start with the incident itself I want to explain that after I have been recruited to the Self Defence Unit by Khumalo, I finished my training, I was given powers to form my own unit and train those members who are interested to join the Self Defence Unit. That is where I recruited three people, Phillip Mosia, Solomon Sera and Jack Mofokeng.

&#9;After I trained them I went to my commander to inform him that I've recruited and trained three people, then he gave me a 9mm pistol and that I should continue to train those people for six months.

&#9;After that six months I went back to - I used to go to him in the ANC offices. We sat down and discussed about the unrest which prevailed in our area where the police played a major role in the death of people who were anti-government.

MR MHLABA: Are you able to tell the Committee who this commander was?

MR MOHOMANE: His name is Simon Mofokeng and his combat name is Khumalo.

MR MHLABA: Are you able now to proceed and explain to the Committee what happened on the ...

MR MOHOMANE: Because I used to go to the office of comrade Khumalo, we used to sit down and discuss about the unrest within South Africa. We were aware that the police played a major role in the unrest and in harassing and torturing the people. In Qwa Qwa there were such incidents, in the place called Thababotsiu where there was a group called - in Thababotsiu there was a group called Ntsometso which was working together with the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you just repeat that name, a group called?

MR MOHOMANE: That is Ntsometso group. Their leader was Lebo Pomolo. They were calling themselves members of the IFP. As we all know that IFP was working together with the police to kill people around Sebokeng and Boipatong etc., and in Qwa Qwa such incidents prevailed, so we used to discuss those issues together with my commander. We reached a decision that in Qwa Qwa we should do something because police are playing a major role in the killings of our comrades, we do something so that we should send the message to their masters and their bosses to tell them that what they are doing is not acceptable to the community. We reached an agreement that we should do something.

MR MHLABA: Yes, can you proceed and explain what happened on this very day, everything that happened and how you planned this incident?

MR MOHOMANE: As I've already explained that comrade has approved that we should do something, the unit which I've already formed. He explained to me that that is an underground cell and then our task was to counteract violence which was done by the police and the State in torturing and harassing our people.

&#9;I remember well that it was on Thursday when we reached an agreement that I should come and see him so that we should come up with the final decision of what to do. We met on the 3rd of June, then he asked me about my unit and I said we are a unit of four, then he gave me a 357 pistol which was fully loaded so that we should go and carry out an operation on Friday, which was the 4th of June.

&#9;On that day whoever was a policeman was supposed to be shot at. He gave us orders that we should not disarm them, we should shoot them and we should not take their guns so that the message should be sent to their masters that their days are numbered and that that message should reach their masters and their bosses.

&#9;On Friday I went to see my comrades and set up an appointment that at 5 o'clock we should meet at comrade Mosia's place where we used to do our training. At 5 o'clock I arrived at Mosia's place. I arrived there around half past five. I found comrade Mosia and Jack Mofokeng. We waited for Solomon Sera because he was working, so that we should wait for him and explain what he should do.

&#9;Around half past six to seven comrade Solomon Sera arrived together with his car, he came with his car. We sat down and planned about the operation because the commander has already issued a command target location, so that those people which are targets are the police and the area which should be targeted were police stations and shopping centres because they used to go there for lunch or supper. If we don't get them at the shopping centres we should go to the police station where we would find them.

&#9;On that particular day, it was around past eight to nine when we decided that myself and Solomon should go together and patrol as to where we would find out targets. After we left, Solomon Sera took a decision that we should start at the shopping centre and look at the parking area as to whether their cars are not parked in that area, as I've already explained.

&#9;When we arrived at the parking area we were able to identify one of the police cars, that was a Mitsubishi Canter. We knew exactly that that car was used by the police. We stayed there for a few minutes. I told Solomon Sera that we should leave and then go and fetch our other remaining comrades because I was having a gun which is a 357, which I took it from the commander and the 15 shooter I left it with Solomon Sera. 

&#9;We went back to fetch comrades and together with the gun we went back to the shopping centre. Around past 9 to 10 'clock the kombi was still there where we saw it earlier. We agreed with Solomon Sera that we should go and park the car a kilometre away from the scene.

&#9;He returned after parking the car, Phillip Mosia. We instructed him to go and survey where those police were inside the shopping centre. He went inside the restaurant. He returned and gave us a report that they were still in the restaurant and they are still eating and they had bottles of liquor. 

&#9;After he returned we stayed outside and waited for them to come out. They came out around half past eleven. I informed Solomon Sera to return to the car so that after finishing the operation we should find him in the car.

&#9;I had the 537. My assistant who is Jack Mofokeng was having a 15 shooter. Unfortunately at half past twelve they went out. That is where we started shooting. We were given an order that we should not disarm them, we should shoot them so that the message should be clear, so that the authorities should know that if the police continue with their torture therefor their days are numbered.

&#9;After we finished with the operation we went to the car. I gave the driver those guns so that he should leave with them. He left me at my place where I slept.

MR MHLABA: And when were you arrested, was it the following day of after some days?

MR MOHOMANE: I was arrested on the following day, that was the 5th of June. After my friend has arrived whom I attended school with before we were staying in Soweto, when we were in his car together with his friend we met the police and they wanted to search the car and ourselves. From there they asked us whose car was it and then the driver answered them that whose the owner of the car. They informed the driver that they suspected the car, that it was used for theft. 

&#9;They took us to the police station and phoned John Vorster Square and phoned as to whether that is not a stolen car or was involved in criminal activities. We were taken to the charge office. We were divided into various places. I was left in the office until the following day, then they locked me in the cell.

&#9;I was released after they asked me about the incident which happened a day before, then I told them that I know nothing about that incident. They asked me as to whether, where do I know those people from with whom I was in the car. I told them that I only one person who was the occupant of the car, because he was a student with me before. Then I was tortured and they asked me about guns. Then they detained me.

&#9;On Monday during the night they called me together with others then we were released. On the 9th again they came to detain me again about this incident. That is where I was charged. I was taken to Court. After that I was convicted then sentenced for death.

MR MHLABA: Did you have an opportunity to report back to your commander about the operation after this incident?

MR MOHOMANE: He was already aware that we've accomplished this operation because he told me that he will see that, if we can follow the method he informed us about to operate, to do this operation, he would know that we are responsible for that incident.

MR MHLABA: Why did you identify the two deceased and kill them, or why in particular them or police officers, to put it differently?

MR MOHOMANE: As I've already explained, on that particular day the order was given that whoever is a member of the police whom we'd meet on that particular day we should shoot. We were given an order that those we would attack we should not take their guns from them.

MR MHLABA: You mentioned that you were given powers to establish your own unit, what other powers were you given insofar as it regards running your unit?

MR MOHOMANE: Other powers I was given was that if as a commander of that particular unit I feel that my unit is running short of weapons, I must consult my commander and inform him about that need. They ...(indistinct) given me an order to disarm the police so that our unit should be well armed.

MR MHLABA: How big was your unit in membership size, how many people did you have in your unit?

MR MOHOMANE: We were four in that particular unit.

MR MHLABA: And what was the chain of command, were you supposed to report back to your commander or anyone of the units could go and talk to your commander?

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, that was an order which I was given, that I should not do things on my own, I should not take any decision on my own without consultation with my commander. I must consult my commander at all times in the ANC offices in Phuthaditjhaba then he would assess the situation and the need. After that assessment he would make a decision in terms of my report and his assessment.

MR MHLABA: After this incident, did you ever have an opportunity to meet your commander, either while you were in prison or shortly before you were arrested?

MR MOHOMANE: I did not have an opportunity to meet with my commander as I've already explained. I was detained and therefore we were not given bail to get outside but he knew that we were responsible for that incident. I did not have an opportunity to meet him until we were convicted and imprisoned, whilst I was in prison.

&#9;We were convicted in 1994 on the 9th of March. If I remember well it was around June/July when I phoned the office asking the whereabouts of commander Craig. I found information that Craig was detained in the same year, in 1994 in August or September.

MR MHLABA: You're telling us about Craig, is this Craig one and the same person as Mofokeng or Khumalo?

MR MOHOMANE: His name is Simon Mofokeng, as I've already explained earlier. Craig Khumalo is a combat name. As he was a well trained cadre of the MK he did his military training abroad. He gave us this name so that at all times I should call him Craig Khumalo because it was his combat name, and that is why I mentioned them both.

MR MHLABA: Taking you back to the incident of the shooting, how were you dressed when you were there, did you put some balaclavas on or you did not disguise at all?

MR MOHOMANE: People who put on balaclavas was myself and Jack Mofokeng as my deputy commander. We were the only two who had balaclavas so that we should not be identified. We were the only two who hid our faces.

MR MHLABA: Other than shooting the two deceased, or rather to put it differently, after shooting the two deceased did you take anything from them?

MR MOHOMANE: No, Sir, we did not take anything from their person because the order was given that we should not take anything, we should not take their guns or anything from them so that anybody would see this attack as a political activity. That is why we did not take anything from their persons.

MR MHLABA: And in attacking them as you did your intention was to kill them, is that correct?

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, that's correct. As I've already explained, the order was to kill and that we should not disarm them.

MR MHLABA: Do you have anything to add in support of your application other than what you've already indicated to the Committee?

MR MOHOMANE: What I want to add is that it is well known what the police did in that particular area. During the unrest from 1991 negotiations had already started. There were reports that the police were encouraging unrest and that they were killing people and then again they were instruments which were used in violence. As the Commission has called me here to come and explain as to why did we kill them and then again about the background, on top of that I want to thank this Commission to give me this opportunity to come and appear before it and I regret for the loss of life.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair, that concludes the evidence-in-chief.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba. Mr Sesele, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chair.

&#9;Mr Mohomane, you say you were a member of COSAS at high school, what standard did you attain there?

MR MOHOMANE: I was just an ordinary member of Cosas as it was meant for students. I left COSAS after finishing my school, then I became a card carrying member of the ANC. After that I was recruited to the SDU.

MR SESELE: Excuse me please, what standard did you attain at school?

MR MOHOMANE: That is standard 10.

MR SESELE: And then you became a member of the African National Congress.

MR MOHOMANE: That is correct.

MR SESELE: Did you attend meetings of the African National Congress during that time, say branch meetings?

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, I did. I attended most of the meetings in Phuthaditjhaba and they were run by comrade Steve Potlela, and together with the rallies of the ANC.

MR SESELE: And the ANC was an unbanned organisation at that time?

MR MOHOMANE: That is correct.

MR SESELE: It could engage in political activities?

MR MOHOMANE: May you please repeat your question, Sir.

MR SESELE: And it could engage in free political activity?

MR MOHOMANE: That is correct.

MR SESELE: Would I be right if I say, at these branch meetings of the African National Congress reports were made about the state of the political situation in the country?

MR MOHOMANE: That is correct.

MR SESELE: Did you know that there were negotiations between the African National Congress and the then government?

MR MOHOMANE: That's what I knew, that negotiations were going on between the ANC and the government of the day.

MR SESELE: Were you also aware that the armed struggle was then suspended?

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, I know that. I knew that fully, that the armed struggle was suspended.

MR SESELE: As a member of the ANC then, were you not bound by the decisions of the ANC?

MR MOHOMANE: May you please repeat your question?

MR SESELE: As a member of the ANC then, were you not bound by the decisions of the organisation?

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, I was informed that I should be a disciplined member of the ANC and that I should be bound by decisions taken by the ANC.

MR SESELE: Now that the ANC had suspended the armed struggle, were you not obliged to adhere to that?

MR MOHOMANE: In regard to the suspension of the armed struggle by the Executive Committee, there was a misunderstanding because of the unrest which reigned within our areas and that the police were the major role-players. That is what has contributed that the ANC should form the SDUs to protect and defend the community against the actions of the police because the police were regarded as the instruments in the unrest.

MR SESELE: Mr Mohomane, you say there was confusion, now you personally, what did you understand by that, the suspension of the armed struggle?

MR MOHOMANE: I was talking about the misunderstanding within the members of the ANC because others did not agree with the suspension of the armed struggle. Those who supported that the armed struggle should be suspended were those who were not involved or nearer to the violence which was prevailing in various communities.

MR SESELE: Are you then saying that some members of the ANC did not support the suspension of the armed struggle?

MR MOHOMANE: That is correct, because people were dying at that time during that unrest and the police were playing a major role in that unrest and in the killings of our people. So I did not support the suspension of the armed struggle because the government was not willing to accept change. That is why I did not support the suspension of the armed struggle.

MR SESELE: So you acted outside the policy of the organisation?

MR MOHOMANE: When returning back to the issue of the armed struggle, as I've already said I did not support the armed struggle because of the unrest which prevailed in our community. I wanted to continue with the missions of protecting the community. Our tasks as the SDU, we were not just attacking ordinary people, we were only responding to the unrest in terms of protecting the community.

MR SESELE: Precisely where do you come from in Qwa Qwa?

MR MOHOMANE: I come from Phuthaditjhaba.

MR SESELE: And your commander, Simon Mofokeng?

MR MOHOMANE: He comes from Welkom. He was Chief of Staff of the SDU within Free State, that is within these areas like Kroonstad, Welkom, Phuthaditjhaba. He was not staying in one place because he was motoring various SDUs within Free State. He was always on the way monitoring various places within Free State.

MR SESELE: Are you also saying that commander Simon Mofokeng like you, were operating outside the policy of the ANC?

MR MOHOMANE: We were not operating outside the policy of the ANC, we were always within, in line with the ANC policy because he was working within the ANC offices in Phuthaditjhaba.

MR SESELE: At the time when you recruited the other three applicants in this matter, were there any criminal cases pending against you?

MR MOHOMANE: As an individual I was not engaged in any criminal activity because ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, the question was, at that time were there any criminal cases pending against you? He's not asking whether you were involved in any criminal activity but were there any cases pending against you, whether you were guilty or not of the cases involved, if there were any is a separate matter, but were there any cases pending against you? That is the question.

MR MOHOMANE: At that time there was a case which the police were trying to implicate me in. As they told me it was a case of armed robbery which was robbed in Qwa Qwa. I was detained together with other police(?) who came from Bethal. In that case we received bail. After some time I was acquitted, I was acquitted from that case.

MR SESELE: There was that armed robbery case pending against you when you recruited the other applicants in this case?

MR MOHOMANE: That armed robbery case was in 1993, we were detained in 1993.

MR SESELE: On the 5th of June 1993, that is the date of this incident, the case was still pending against you, is that right?

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, I was attending Court.

MR SESELE: And amongst others the deceased, Sergeant Makau was the investigating officer, is that correct?

MR MOHOMANE: As to whether one of the deceased was the investigating officer, we were informed in Court it was the fabrication of the police that one of the deceased was an investigating officer of the armed robbery case. I was not detained by one of the deceased, I was detained by Sergeant Pitso. I was charged by Sergeant Motlaung. That is Sergeant Motlaung, whom I knew was responsible for that docket.

MR SESELE: After your arrest you were charged and there was a criminal case against you and the other three applicants in this matter, is that right?

MR MOHOMANE: Do you mean that criminal case was on me, on my shoulders or for other applicants?

MR SESELE: I'm referring to the criminal case involving yourself, Mr Mofokeng, Mr Sera and Mr Mosia, the very same case for which you are serving a prison sentence.

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, we were imprisoned for this particular incident, not for the armed robbery. I did this incident because of the instructions I received from my commander. We would not regard that particular incident as a criminal case.

MR SESELE: When you were charged do you remember that there was also one Mr Kele who was arrested with you in this murder case?

CHAIRPERSON: What was that name, Mr Sesele?

MR SESELE: Mr Kele.

MR MOHOMANE: I saw him for the first time in the police cells. I knew him because we attended this case together and then he was acquitted.

MR SESELE: Do you remember that Mr Kele in the High Court when you were charged, was a State witness against you?

MR MOHOMANE: He was not a State witness. ...(no English translation)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we're not getting the interpretation.

INTERPRETER: There was a little problem, Sir. We want the applicant to repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mohomane, could you please just repeat what you've said? There was a complication in the interpreter's box and it wasn't coming through. If you could just repeat your last statement.

MR MOHOMANE: Abraham Kele, his evidence was in regard to the gun which comrade Sera hid to his place. He gave evidence only with regard to the gun which comrade Sera hid in his place.

MR SESELE: In Court you did not give evidence personally?

MR MOHOMANE: That's correct. I was not prepared to address that Court because I knew that they would not interpret what I'm saying in that Court and that is why I ended up being given that sentence. So I was not prepared to testify in that Court.

MR SESELE: Mr Kele, there's evidence on record, and I would refer the Committee to page 122 of the bundle, the last paragraph and again at page 123 the last paragraph and in particular at page 123 Mr Kele testifies about what he heard between you and the other applicants regarding the background of this shooting. At page 124 Mr Kele says the applicant, Mr Mosia, who was then accused number 3 in the case was actually blaming you and Mr Sera for having led them into this killing. Do you remember hearing that in Court?

MR MOHOMANE: No, Sir, I don't remember hearing that evidence. The only thing that I remember in Court was the evidence by Mr Kele concerning the gun. And then he also gave evidence about the story that he alleged that he heard us holding while we were at the police cells.

MR SESELE: Mr Kele also said in evidence against you that you are the person who suggested that the late Sergeant Makau be shot because he was an investigating officer against you in an armed robbery case. Regarding that I would refer the Committee to page 124 of the bundle at line number 7, rather number 6.

&#9;Do you remember him saying that in Court?

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, I do.

MR SESELE: And I would also refer the Committee to the evidence of Sergeant van Staden at page 130 at approximately line number 21. This Captain van Staden testified in Court that the deceased, Sergeant Makau was an investigating officer in a robbery case against you, can you remember that?

MR MOHOMANE: I remember the Court asking Captain van Staden about that, whether one of us were attending a case which was handled by one of the deceased. That concerned accused number 2 and others. They were attending a case which was investigated by the deceased, but like I have already explained I was never arrested by the deceased and that we killed him because of that case, that one I don't know. I don't understand and I don't remember that the other person died because of what they were doing or what is alleged that they were doing.

MR SESELE: The first robbery case - according to Captain van Staden in Court, the first robbery case, regarding the first robber case you only got, you were released on bail on the 5th of June and that is the day on which the deceased died, that deceased that was shot by you and the other appellants.

MR MOHOMANE: I was not released on bail on the 5th of June. Like I've already explained they were just trying to implicate me. I was arrested in March as I remember well and the deceased died two weeks after I was arrested.

MR SESELE: The State witness against you namely, Mr Kele - and I'm referring the Committee to page 124 the second paragraph from the bottom, testified in Court that when there was talk of, when you were in detention and you were talking about this case in the presence of all other applicants, none of you objected to having taken part. That is the evidence that is standing on record that led to your conviction. Do you remember hearing that in Court?

MR MOHOMANE: I don't understand your question or what you are trying to explain, can you please repeat your question?

MR SESELE: In Court, do you remember Mr Kele testifying that when you and the other applicants were in prison you talked of the killing of Sergeant Makau in particular and Sergeant Mosebi as ...(indistinct) and concerted action?

MR MOHOMANE: Like I've already explained, the evidence given by Kele in Court was not against me, what he said in Court was that he heard us while we were still on trial, that what we did we did as a group, that is collectively.

MR SESELE: The factual findings made in Court on the evidence of Mr Kele and Captain van Staaden let to your conviction but you never, and you had the chance of contradicting that in Court but you never did so, why?

MR MOHOMANE: Like I've already explained, I was not prepared to address that Court, and the evidence given by Kele was, I can say that he was used by the police in order that we should be convicted. 

&#9;Concerning Abraham Kele's evidence again, he was not the only person that gave evidence and his evidence contradicted the other person by the name of Tshabalala. He is the person who said the evidence given by Mr Kele was just pure lies.

MR SESELE: Mr Mohomane, how do you explain the incidents that Sergeant Makau is the investigating officer according to the evidence, and you happen to be involved when he is shot to death?

MR MOHOMANE: The question that he was the investigating officer, it was news to me, I heard that for the first time in Court, but I explained that I was never arrested by Mr Makau, I was arrested by Mr Pitso and Mr Makau was the person who was actually handling my case. I fail to understand how could I kill that person for the case which I've already that I did not know and I was acquitted on that case because the Court realised that really I did not understand and I didn't know about that case.

&#9;The armed robbery case, if I remember well we were taken to an identification parade and no-one pointed me out. That is why the Court acquitted me on that armed robbery case you're talking about.

MR SESELE: Mr Mohomane, I put to you that the killing of Sergeant Makau and Sergeant Mosebi was an attempt by you and the other applicants to get rid of Sergeant Makau as the investigating officer in your case of armed robbery which was then pending.

MR MOHOMANE: No, I disagree with you, Sir, because if he was the person who was investigating my case I would have known then. If I wanted to kill him I would kill him with the people who were my co-accused in that case. Like I've already explained, on that day of the incident we had to kill him because he was a policeman. If we would find 15 or 10 in that kombi we would have killed them but unfortunately only two people appeared. 

&#9;And to give you more information like I've already explained, those people while they were having their meals in that restaurant, the report that we got was that there were many policemen in that ...(indistinct) we were surprised when we saw only two policemen coming. So I do not agree with what you are saying to me.

MR SESELE: Mr Mohomane, I further put to you that your killing of the two deceased was not politically motivated at all.

MR MOHOMANE: When you say it was not politically motivated, the killing of those two policemen, like I've already explained I disagree with you because I didn't carry out this operation with the people I was attending this case regarding the armed robbery.

MR SESELE: You said amongst others your commander, Simon Mofokeng instructed you only to kill the policemen and not to disarm them, is that right?

MR MOHOMANE: He never said that we should kill a policeman, he said we should kill policemen but we should not take their weapons so that the message should be clear that the attack was politically motivated. If this was just a criminal act we would have taken their weapons. 

MR SESELE: One the charges against you was these two or murders and other charges were related to possession of ammunition and firearms, is that right?

MR MOHOMANE: That's correct.

MR SESELE: And after the shooting of Sergeant Makau and Sergeant Mosebi, did you remove weapons from them?

MR MOHOMANE: No, Sir, we never took their weapons because the order was clear that we should not take their weapons, therefore we never took their weapons. The only weapons that we had in our possession were our own weapons.

MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sesele. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chair, just a few.

&#9;Mr Mohomane, do I understand it that the SDUs did not have a supply of weapons from the ANC or from any other source and for them to attain weapons they have to disarm the enemy?

MR MOHOMANE: That's correct.

MR MAPOMA: And now how do you reconcile this order of not taking the weapons from the enemy with the standing policy of the SDUs then that they must disarm the enemy?

MR MOHOMANE: It is true that we had to arm other members of the SDU with these weapons that we disarm from the police but the order that came from the commander was that if I feel that my unit needs other weapons I should contact him, and he is the only person who will give that instruction that we should go and disarm the police. But on that day the mission was not to disarm the people, that is why he issued this order that we should not disarm them because the aim of this operation was to deliver this message to the apartheid government that what the police were doing to the community, if they continue with that then their days would be numbered. That's my explanation.

MR MAPOMA: You will agree with me that that particular order was quite unusual regarding the operations of the SDUs, the one to kill the police and not take the weapons?

MR MOHOMANE: I do not agree with you because as a member of the SDU everything that I would do I would not take my own decision, I would have to consult with my commander, we'd have to sit down and discuss and he'll be the only person that would give out the instruction.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mohomane, we've heard that, you've said it before, but what Mr Mapoma's asking you is, do you agree that the order that Mofokeng gave you was an unusual order?

MR MOHOMANE: No, I do not agree with him.

DR TSOTSI: If you had taken the weapons from the police, would that not have registered to the government that you were in fact fighting against the police?

MR MOHOMANE: Like I've already explained that the order of that day was very clear, that we should not take weapons on that particular day. So what I was doing was just to carry out the instructions that we should not take weapons, we should just shoot them so that the message should be clear to the then government.

DR TSOTSI: You agree don't you, that the message would have been clear to the government even if you had taken the weapons from the police?

MR MOHOMANE: I do not agree with you, if we took their weapons the message would not be clear but like I've already said, the message was clear that we should not take the weapons so that the government would know that we were just sending a message.

MR MAPOMA: Now when did you pass standard 10?

MR MOHOMANE: If I remember well it was in 1990 when I passed my standard 10.

MR MAPOMA: So it is only thereafter that you joined the ANC?

MR MOHOMANE: You know that our standard 10 results we get in January, so I waited for those results but while I was still a member of COSAS I was also a supporter of the ANC at school. I became a card carrying member of the ANC in January 1990.

MR MAPOMA: Now in the SDUs if I understand it, you will correct me if I'm wrong, you say Mr Mofokeng was a commander of the SDUs throughout the Free State, is this so?

MR MOHOMANE: He was the Chief of Staff of the SDU in the Free State.

MR MAPOMA: And there must have been a commander of your local SDUs, is this so?

MR MOHOMANE: Comrade Craig was also the commander. He was also responsible for training the members of the SDU, and then he would give us the powers to go out and form our own units. He was our commander, so when I go to the offices of the ANC I will speak to him in that area where I lived.

MR MAPOMA: Sir, what I want to find out is the command structure of the SDUs under which you were operating. If comrade Craig was that commander who was overseeing the Orange Free State as a Province, there must have been a commander immediately above you and not him directly, is it not so?

MR MOHOMANE: I know there is something like that but I didn't know it then. I only regarded him as a commander in the area where I lived because he was the person who would train us and other people. I regarded him as our central commander.

MR MAPOMA: So there was no commander above you or between you and comrade Craig?

MR MOHOMANE: No, Chairperson, between me and comrade Craig there was no commander because I was reporting directly to comrade Craig. I would not know whether he would also take that order to other people above him.

MR MAPOMA: Now in your application for amnesty you did not make mention of the fact that you were instructed by Commander Craig to conduct this operation, why did you not mention that?

MR MOHOMANE: When you look clearly on my application form, I did not explain that he gave us the instruction because when I filled these forms I knew that the Commission will call me and that that would be the time I would give them a full explanation. But when you look at this form, I wrote a letter and that letter gives all the details so I sent that letter in order to substantiate what is actually missing in that application form.

MR MAPOMA: And in that letter do you mention that you were instructed by comrade Craig?

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, I do in that letter, I do explain that I had been given an instruction by comrade Craig and also the positions of my co-applicants. That is why I say in that letter I have disclosed everything.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, which letter is that? Which page is it Mr Mhlaba? Is it in the bundle?

MR MHLABA: It appears that it is not in the bundle but ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: When did you send this letter you are talking about, Mr Mohomane?

MR MOHOMANE: I sent this letter after I have sent my application form because I remember I was together with comrade Sera, we wrote this letters together. They were faxed the same day and we phoned Cape Town to confirm that they received those letters and Miss Machaka in Cape Town confirmed that they actually received the letter.

CHAIRPERSON: They were faxed?

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, that's correct, they were faxed. We even phoned them and they confirmed that they received our fax.

MR MAPOMA: Let's proceed. Now in Court you say you did not want to address that Court and controvert these allegations which were made against you, why were you not prepared to controvert those allegations in that Court?

MR MOHOMANE: That's the decision that we took with my co-applicants after realising that the Court was one sided, they were actually listening to the lies told by the police. That is why we took a decision that we just keep quiet and be silent, because the Court did not co-operate with us. And it was known that time that more especially the Supreme Court would not co-operate with us, that is why we decided that we will not address them.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, no further questions, Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Would this be a convenient time to take the lunch adjournment, I see it's 1 o'clock. I think so. We'll take the lunch adjournment at this stage seeing that it's 1 o'clock and then we'll resume, can we resume at quarter to two?

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

ISAAC MOHOMANE: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, do you have any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA: Yes please, thank you, Mr Chair.

&#9;Now Mr Mohomane, can you tell the Committee whether or not you were represented at the trial?

MR MOHOMANE: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you just start again please?

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, I was legally represented. It was pro-deo representation. They arrived for consultation and then informed us that they're going to represent us in Court and they asked us as to whether we are going to plead guilty or not ...(end of tape)

MR MHLABA: Did your legal representative give you an opportunity to explain in detail what happened before they proceeded on trial?

MR MOHOMANE: No, we did not have that opportunity for consultation, to explain to them as to what happened, they just asked us as to whether we are going to plead guilty or not and then we told them that we are not going to plead guilty, then we continued with the case.

MR MHLABA: Were you approached by your legal representatives about your comment on the testimony of Kele?

MR MOHOMANE: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR MHLABA: Were you given an opportunity to comment by your legal representative on the testimony of State witness Kele?

MR MOHOMANE: No, I was not given that opportunity to comment on the testimony or the witness or evidence of Kele.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair, I don't have any further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness? 

DR TSOTSI: No questions, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni?

MR SIBANYONI: No questions to ask, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mohomane, whereabout is Craig Khumalo or Mr Mofokeng, do you know at the moment?

MR MOHOMANE: Yes, I do. I received information from the office that he was arrested and imprisoned.

CHAIRPERSON: These two policemen who were shot and killed, were they wearing a uniform at the time?

MR MOHOMANE: No, they were not in uniform because they were CID's.

CHAIRPERSON: So at the time of the shooting the only reason that you, correct me if I'm wrong, the only reason that you knew that they were policemen was because they went to this car which you knew to be a police car?

MR MOHOMANE: As I've already explained, when we arrived for the first time we identified the kombi knowing that it was a police vehicle. Then when we returned for the second time Phillip Mosia went to survey and then confirmed that those were the police. We identified the police as a police vehicle, we knew that it was used by the police.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that I have put to the witness?

MR MHLABA: No questions, Chair.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele, do you have any questions arising?

MR SESELE: No questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions, Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mohomane, that concludes your testimony. You may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

 

 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;17TH NOVEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;SOLOMON SERA

APPLICATION NO: AM 1313/96

INCIDENT: MURDER OF TWO POLICEMEN - 

&#9;&#9; MOKETE BENJAMIN MAKAU & TSELANE &#9;&#9; JACOBINA MOSEBI

DAY :&#9;2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair. May I now call Solomon Sera? 

SOLOMON SERA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA: Mr Sera, you were on the 5th of June 1993 in the company of Isaac Mohomane were two police officers were shot dead, is that correct?

MR SERA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: And you are approaching this Committee today to apply for an amnesty in respect of the very offences, is that correct?

MR SERA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: You were born on the 7th of March 1969 at Vereeniging, is that correct?

MR SERA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: The basis on which you're applying for amnesty is that the offences which you have committed and subsequently convicted of, were committed by you with a political objective, is that correct?

MR SERA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee if during the period June 1993, in particular on the 5th of June '93, whether you belonged to a political organisation.

MR SERA: In 1993 I was a member of the ANC and again I was a member of the SDU.

MR MHLABA: When did you join the SDU and how were you recruited therein, if you were ever recruited?

MR SERA: I joined the SDU in 1991. I was recruited by Mosia and Isaac Mohomane who was my commander.

MR MHLABA: Did you know Mosia before this specific date, before you joined the SDUs?

MR SERA: I knew Mosia in 1992 when we were engaged in SDU training.

MR MHLABA: When he recruited you were you aware that he was a member of the SDU or a member of the African National Congress? Did you have any doubts or didn't you?

MR SERA: Yes, I had that information that he was a member of the ANC and again a member of the SDU.

MR MHLABA: And can you tell the Committee who was your immediate commander in the SDUs?

MR SERA: My commander in the SDU was Isaac Mohomane.

MR MHLABA: And you used to take instructions from him, is that correct?

MR SERA: Yes, I used to take instructions from him as my commander.

MR MHLABA: And you were satisfied that all the instructions where you were from to time taking from him were instructions from the African National Congress or the senior commanders thereof?

MR SERA: Yes, I was satisfied.

MR MHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee how the incident where the two police officers, Makau and Mosebi were killed and the manner in which the killing was planned and subsequently executed?

MR SERA: In 1993 we met as co-accused together with my comrade. We met at Mosia's place where I met my three comrades where we used to engage in our training. I was the fourth one. 

&#9;I left with Isaac Mohomane who is my commander, to try to identify targets and where we can find them. We parked our car at the shopping centre. We were able to identify a car which was used by the police. We returned to report to other comrades that we were able to identify a target and the place.

&#9;At the time when I was together with comrade Mohomane he was having a 357 revolver. We returned to other comrades at Phillip Mosia's house. We sat down, we discussed, all of us, as to whether what method should we use to attack that target. 

&#9;Comrade Jack Mofokeng who is the assistant commander to Isaac Mohomane had a 15 shooter which was given to him by Isaac Mohomane. We left with a car and parked the car where the target was, and Phillip Mosia went inside at that shopping centre or where those policemen were. He was able to identify those people as members of the police.

&#9;Then he returned. We whiled away time outside. Then he went again after some time, then he said he was able to see that they were just about to leave. He told us that I should take the car and put it to a position where after the operation they would find me at that particular spot.

&#9;He said that after the operation he would find me at that particular spot where he instructed me to park the car. After the operation I picked my comrade, then I left comrade Mohomane at his place, then I left Phillip Mosia at his place. I was together with comrade Jack Mofokeng where I left him at his place. Then he gave me the gun which he used so that I should be able to keep it.

MR MHLABA: With regard to the identification of targets as you've already mentioned, did your commander tell you that you were looking for specific police officers or you were just identifying any police officer?

MR SERA: We were identifying our target generally as policemen, not particular policemen.

MR MHLABA: The two police officers who died as a result of this operation, were they known to you?

MR SERA: Yes, I knew them.

MR MHLABA: Were they ever mentioned by your commander who is your co-applicant, that these very officers should be attacked? Were they ever mentioned by names to you in other words?

MR SERA: No, there was no identify of particular policemen who were to be identified as targets. He instructed us generally that whoever is a member of the police force should be attacked.

MR MHLABA: So in other words you're telling this Committee that even if the police officers who you found at the scene were not these two deceased, they would have been attacked as well, is that correct?

MR SERA: Yes, I believe so because on that particular day it was a general target that we should attack policemen. There was no specification about particular identification of who should be attacked.

MR MHLABA: Other than getting instructions from Mosia, was there any other SDU leader or ANC leader who gave you orders directly, not through Mohomane?

MR SERA: No, there was no leader who used to give us instructions. All instructions we received through Isaac Mohomane.

MR MHLABA: So do you confirm that you were very satisfied that this operation had a blessing of the responsible people in the ANC and the SDUs?

MR SERA: Yes, I confirm because I had faith in him as my commander.

MR MHLABA: So is it your case that in killing the two deceased you were furthering the objectives of your political movement?

MR SERA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: Did you in any way benefit financially or materially from the death of the two deceased?

MR SERA: No, I did not receive any - by killing these people we were able to reach our objective which we wanted to achieve.

MR MHLABA: Do you have any other thing to add in support of your application for amnesty?

MR SERA: Yes, I wanted to add something to my application, Sir. 

MR MHLABA: You may proceed.

MR SERA: What I wanted to add to my evidence is that in my application for amnesty which I did not mention is that I'm here before the Committee of the Truth and Reconciliation and I want to thank this Committee for giving me this opportunity to appear before it. In the past we regarded the police as our enemy because they

were used by the previous government. I'd be very happy if members of the family of the victims would understand the situation of the past, that it was because of that situation which has forced us that we kill their next-of-kin. That is why I say I'm requesting for forgiveness.

MR MHLABA: In your trial for the very incident, were you legally represented?

MR SERA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MHLABA: Were you represented by a legal representative of your choice?

MR SERA: No, certain people who were advocates came to prison who informed us that they are going to represent us in Court.

MR MHLABA: There has been mention of testimony by Kele, were you given an opportunity to address or to talk to your legal representatives about the testimony which was tendered by him?

MR SERA: No, I was never given an opportunity to challenge his evidence. What I did I told my legal representation to challenge that evidence because his evidence it was not true. He took an oath but he did not tell the Court the truth.

MR MHLABA: So in short you are telling this Committee that this witness lied under oath?

MR SERA: Yes, he lied whilst he was under oath. It happened that before our trial began he came together with Captain van Staaden to the jail where I was. They brought some money, they wanted to buy me out so that I should be a State witness against my co-accused. I rejected their offer, and then when he received in Court, Captain van Staaden agreed that he was in prison with me but he disputed that he came with money to buy me out so that I should be a State witness. But the books showed that Captain van Staaden came in prison together with a certain person.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair, that concludes the evidence-in-chief.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mhlaba. Do you have any questions, Mr Sesele?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Sera, you say you were recruited by Mr Mohomane into the SDU, did you know at that time that there was a criminal case pending against him?

MR SERA: No, Chairperson, I didn't know that. I only learnt of that while I was in jail.

MR SESELE: Was that before the trial against you, when you learnt of the case against Mr Mohomane?

MR SERA: The case against Mr Mohomane, I heard about it while we were already on trial with this case.

MR SESELE: How many members were there in the SDU?

MR SERA: We were four.

MR SESELE: Did you have any contact with any other person from the higher command structure except Mr Mohomane?

MR SERA: No, he was the only person that I had a contact with, so we received everything or the instructions from him.

MR SESELE: On the 5th of June 1993, the date of the incident, did you know that the ANC was involved in negotiations with the then government?

MR SERA: That's correct.

MR SESELE: Did you also know that the armed struggle was then suspended?

MR SERA: That's correct, I knew.

MR SESELE: Mr Mohomane has said he did not support the suspension of the armed struggle, and as your commander did you also not agree with that suspension?

MR SERA: Yes, that is correct, I was against the suspension of the armed struggle because our people were being killed. There were other killings while the previous government and the ANC were still involved in the negotiations.

MR SESELE: Are you then saying that you acted outside the policy of the ANC?

MR SERA: Yes, what we did we did outside the policy of the ANC.

MR SESELE: Isn't it probable that you came involved in this shooting for the sake of Mr Mohomane who had a criminal case against him?

MR SERA: Like I've already explained, I only learnt of it while I was on trial.

MR SESELE: When you were on trial and you heard the evidence by Mr Kele that was against all four of you in Court, didn't you ask for an opportunity to contradict that evidence?

MR SERA: Because I did not recognise that government I did not request for an opportunity to oppose his evidence.

MR SESELE: You didn't oppose the evidence but all the same you at the same time pleaded not guilty, is that right? Not guilty in Court.

MR SERA: That is correct, we did not plead guilty.

MR SESELE: Wasn't it explained to you that in order to substantiate your plea of not guilty you had to give some evidence if you don't agree with what was said against you?

MR SERA: No, Chairperson, that was not explained to us.

MR SESELE: Just to go a little bit backwards, who identified the two deceased policemen at Matsidiso(?) Restaurant?

MR SERA: That is Phillip Mosia.

MR SESELE: And where was Mr Mohomane then?

MR SERA: The three of us together with comrade Jack were outside.

MR SESELE: You said you knew the two deceased before the date of the incident, is that right?

MR SERA: Who said he knew the two accused before the incident?

MR SESELE: You personally said you knew them before the incident.

MR SERA: That is correct.

MR SESELE: Did you harbour any grudges against them?

MR SERA: The only thing that I was against was the way they were used against the people by the government of the day, that is to harass the people.

MR SESELE: I put it to you, Mr Sera, that all what you were involved in at the scene of the shooting was a matter of personal gain for Mr Mohomane.

MR SERA: That is not true.

MR SESELE: I further put it to you that since you also agree that you were acting outside the, outside what the ANC said regarding the armed struggle, you did this for your own purpose and you were not politically motivated.

MR SERA: That is not correct because after the suspension of the armed struggle the SDUs were formed in order to protect the communities because negotiations were still going on between the government and the ANC, while on the other hand the killings were continuing. So the SDUs were formed after that, after the people were being killed, in order to protect the people.

MR SESELE: After the shooting what happened to the firearms of the deceased policemen?

MR SERA: I took both firearms to the place where I lived.

MR SESELE: And regarding firearms, what was the instruction of your commanders?

MR SERA: We kept the weapons where we were training but that day I had the weapons. I was going to load the weapons. We kept our weapons where we used to conduct our training.

MR SESELE: Were those your instructions, to disarm the policemen?

MR SERA: The instruction that we got was to kill the police and not to take their arms on that particular day.

MR SESELE: But all the same you took the weapons along?

CHAIRPERSON: I think there might have been some misunderstanding, Mr Sesele, perhaps you can clear it up but my understanding was that he took the weapons that were used in the shooting, not the weapons that the police had on them. But perhaps you can clear it up.

MR SESELE: Thanks, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Mr Sera, I'm referring to the weapons of the two police officers, what did you do with those weapons immediately after shooting them?

MR SERA: We did not disarm them, we left those weapons there. We only took with us the weapons that we used on the scene.

MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.

&#9;Mr Sera, after you completed your application for amnesty did you submit any letter in support of that application to the Amnesty Committee?

MR SERA: I will explain it this way. When we were filling these forms we didn't get any assistance as to how these forms should be filled. That is after we had filled these forms and we realised that there were mistakes and omissions that we made, that is when we decided that we should write letters to the Committee to give all the details that were missing or omitted from our application forms.

MR MAPOMA: So are you confirming that you did write a letter to the Amnesty Committee in support of this application?

MR SERA: That is correct, I agree that I wrote a letter and I gave it to comrade Mohomane. He is the person who took this letter to the office where they were supposed be sent to.

MR MAPOMA: And do you confirm that this letter that you wrote is the one which appears on page 24 up to page 29 of the bundle of documents, paginated bundle?

MR SERA: That's correct, that's the letter that I wrote.

MR MAPOMA: And in your evidence you have told the Committee that you did not have any contact with any other ANC member except, the only instructions you received were from Mr Mohomane, do you still confirm that?

MR SERA: Yes, I agree because we received everything from comrade Mohomane.

MR MAPOMA: And you did not have any contact with comrade Craig Khumalo?

MR SERA: Comrade Craig Khumalo was unknown to me. I was supposed to meet him after the operations together with comrade Mohomane but he was the person unknown to me then.

MR MAPOMA: Let me read for you on page 26 of the paginated bundle, paragraph 9. You say in this letter that you wrote to the Amnesty Committee:

&#9;&#9;"As I was regularly meeting with my instructor, the Chief-of-Staff of the Self Defence Units in the Northern Free State, a well trained cadre of MK who had his military training from abroad and recruited me to be involved in the mission of the SDUs."

Then you go and go on. Now how do you explain this in the light of what you have just told the Committee?

MR SERA: What you have just read I will explain it this way. There was a misunderstanding between me and my commander. It's only now that I become aware that this is the statement that was supposed to be made by him because I had not yet met Khumalo by then. He was the only person who had contact with Khumalo, so I think that was the mistake that I made.

MR MAPOMA: But is this not the letter which was written by yourself and addressed to the Amnesty Committee?

MR SERA: Yes, that's correct, I wrote the letter.

MR MAPOMA: And you wanted the Amnesty Committee to grant you amnesty on the basis of what you say in this letter or in support of your application, is it not so?

MR SERA: That's correct, it supports my application.

MR MAPOMA: And in paragraph 10 on page 27 of the bundle, in paragraph 10 there on the second sentence you go on to say, in fact let me start from the first sentence of that paragraph. You say:

&#9;&#9;"We reached an agreement that we will have to meet again at a later stage and reach the final decision. We then met as agreed and we were both maintaining our position that really something has to be done, and he furnished the commander of the operation a 3.57 Magnum fully loaded revolver as the commander of the operation."

When you say "he furnished to commander of the operation", whom do you refer to in this letter?

MR SERA: Like I've already explained, maybe we made a mistake while I was writing this letter. The person who was given this revolver was my commander, that is Mr Mohomane.

MR MAPOMA: And who was he giving it to?

MR SERA: What he told me was that he was given this weapon by comrade Khumalo for that particular operation that we were supposed to carry out.

MR MAPOMA: And who was the commander of the operation?

MR SERA: That is Isaac Mohomane. My commander was Isaac Mohomane.

MR MAPOMA: And Isaac Mohomane is the person who was the commander of the operation, is it so?

MR SERA: That's correct.

MR MAPOMA: And Isaac Mohomane was given this Magnum revolver by his commander?

MR SERA: The way he told me is that he was given this revolver by his commander.

MR MAPOMA: And as it appears in this letter of yours here, you were present when this revolver was given to Mr Mohomane. Do you agree with me that what is reflected in this letter here gives an impression that you were also present when this gun was given by this trained cadre of MK to the commander of your operation?

MR SERA: I've already explained, maybe it's a mistake that we made when I was writing this letter.

MR MAPOMA: Who told you to write this letter?

MR SERA: I was with comrade Mohomane when I was writing this letter.

MR MAPOMA: And you discussed it with him, isn't that so?

MR SERA: After writing this letter I gave it to him, so I don't know whether he read this letter before he took the letter where it was supposed to be delivered.

CHAIRPERSON: But the question was, when you were writing the letter or before writing the letter, did you and Mr Mohomane discuss what would be written or was this letter just your own initiative which you only gave to him after you wrote and when you gave it to him he didn't know or wouldn't necessarily have known exactly what you wrote?

MR SERA: We did discuss before we wrote this letter.

DR TSOTSI: Did you receive any letter from the TRC, from the Amnesty Committee?

MR SERA: Yes, there are letters that I received from the office of the TRC but I don't remember where they are right now. I think I left them in jail.

DR TSOTSI: What were they about, what was the content of the letters?

MR SERA: Some of those letters that I received I don't remember their contents clearly.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, continue, Mr Mapoma.

MR MAPOMA: Now do you agree therefore, or which on is correct between the contents of this letter and what you have just told this Committee now?

MR SERA: What is correct is that comrade Mohomane is the only person who had contact with comrade Craig.

MR MAPOMA: When you met these policemen, or just explain, how did you get in contact with these policemen?

MR SERA: I never met these policemen. We went to the place where the car was parked, the policemen's car. I never met them so I didn't know them, I didn't know the people who were inside that car because I never went inside to identify the people who were inside.

MR MAPOMA: And what time was it?

MR SERA: For the first time we went there at seven together with comrade Isaac Mohomane. For the second time we went there as a unit, it was around nine or after nine or something to ten.

MR MAPOMA: And you have told the Committee that you knew these policemen, do you remember that?

MR SERA: That is correct, I knew them. I knew these policemen because I used to work at the Court as a messenger so sometimes when they were bringing the cases in Court I would meet them and that is where I knew that they were policemen.

MR MAPOMA: And you ...(indistinct) amongst yourselves, is it yourself who got into the restaurant where they were and identified them?

MR SERA: No, I did not.

MR MAPOMA: Is there someone amongst yourselves who went into the place where they were sitting and identified them?

MR SERA: The person who went inside was Phillip Mosia, while they were dining.

MR MAPOMA: And then he came back and told you who these policemen were?

MR SERA: He didn't tell us who they were, he just told us the policemen are there, that is the policemen who were driving the vehicle that we have identified. He didn't specify them by their names.

MR MAPOMA: Now in this letter that you wrote to the Amnesty Committee, on page 28 of this paginated bundle on the second paragraph you say this and I'm going to read for you:

&#9;&#9;"It was about 10 o'clock at night when we stopped a blue mini-bus entering the shopping centre."

Did you stop a mini-bus at all?

MR SERA: It was already there when we arrived.

MR MAPOMA: You go on to say:

&#9;&#9;"We knew that it was a Murder and Robbery Squad which was in the mini-bus."

Do you see that?

MR SERA: I knew them because like I've already said I was working in the Court, I used to see them there.

MR MAPOMA: Now do you agree with me that the contents of this letter or in fact the paragraph that I've just read to you in the contents of this letter, are at variance with what you are telling this Committee today?

MR SERA: I'll explain it this way ...(intervention)

MR MAPOMA: No, before you explain, do you agree with me that there are some variations between these contents I've just read for you and what you have told this Committee before?

MR SERA: Yes, I do.

MR MAPOMA: And how do you explain those variations then?

MR SERA: I'll explain it this way. Like I've already explained, while I was writing this letter I was sentenced to death. The death sentence contributed a lot to the mistakes that I had made in that letter. While I was writing this letter with Mr Mohomane, although we were sitting down discussing what should be written on this letter, sometimes I took some of the thing that was supposed to be written by him and then I wrote them in this letter. That is why I say that I must have committed some mistakes in the letter that appears in this bundle.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but when you wrote this letter the death sentence was no longer in operation. You wrote this letter only on the 20th of March 1997. Do you understand that?

MR SERA: Yes, I agree with you. That is why I say I was affected by the death sentence.

MR MAPOMA: So the contents which I've just pointed out in this letter which you wrote to the Amnesty Committee were not true contents?

MR SERA: What is correct is what I've explained before this Committee.

MR MAPOMA: Okay. Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mhlaba, do you have any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA: Just one aspect, Mr Chairman.

&#9;Do you know whether Mr Mohomane has also written a letter to the TRC?

MR SERA: He told me that he wrote a letter while I gave him this letter to be delivered at the TRC offices.

MR MHLABA: Did you see the letter he wrote, did you have an opportunity of reading it or have you never had such an opportunity?

MR SERA: I never had the opportunity to read that letter.

MR MHLABA: You have mentioned to the Committee that some of the aspects which are referred to in this letter were supposed to have been said by Mr Mohomane himself or written by him, can you explain more? Did he say some of these things to you, what he did? That is his contact with comrade Craig and you reduced it in writing into your letter.

MR SERA: He explained this to me. He told me that he had contact with comrade Craig.

MR MHLABA: So some of the contents here are not applicable to you, is that correct?

MR SERA: That's correct.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair, I've got no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: What was the political relationship between the SDUs and the ANC?

MR SERA: The SDU was formed after we realised that the ANC was still in negotiations with the government, while on the other side the killings of the people were continuing. That is when the ANC decided that we should form these Self Defence Units.

DR TSOTSI: Was the SDU a structure of the ANC or was it independent of the ANC?

MR SERA: It was the structure within the ANC.

DR TSOTSI: That is all.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You've eluded to this in your evidence but can you explain why when you filled in your application form during April 1996, why you made no mention whatsoever of the Self Defence Units?

MR SERA: When I was filling this application form it was before I met my commander. So we received the forms from the prison where I was based, so I didn't receive any advice as to how this form should be completed.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that the filling in of this application form which appears - if you can just confirm, perhaps Mr Mhlaba can show it to you, which appears on page 19 through to 23 of the bundle, when you filled in that form you say you did that without any consultation with Mr Mohomane and you did it independently just by yourself without any assistance at all from anyone?

MR SERA: I was alone when I filled this form on my own.

CHAIRPERSON: And is there any particular reason why when in response to a specific question about if you were instructed or the order was given to perform the act by any person, who was that person, and you put not applicable (N/A), when you now quite clearly say it was Mr Mohomane who instructed you. Are you saying you also filled that in as not applicable (N/A) because you didn't quite understand the form?

MR SERA: I was under the impression that I will only reveal the name of the person who gave me the instruction before the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: So then why did you mention Mr Mohomane as being your commander in the letter that you wrote the Committee later, if it was your impression that you would only mention names when you actually appeared before the Committee?

MR SERA: I mentioned him in that letter because I had already received the advice from him, that I should mention that I got the instructions from him.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of the incidents, 5 June 1993, whereabout did you live?

MR SERA: I lived at Momotsha(?)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what place?

MR SERA: M-O-M-O-T-S-H-A.

CHAIRPERSON: Whereabouts is that?

MR SERA: It's about 20 to 25 kilometres from Phuthaditjhaba.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MR MHLABA: No, I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele?

MR SESELE: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, Mr Sera, that concludes your testimony. You may stand down now.

WITNESS EXCUSED

TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;17TH NOVEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;JACK MOFOKENG

APPLICATION NO: AM 4114/96 

INCIDENT: MURDER OF TWO POLICEMEN - &#9;&#9;&#9; &#9; MOKETE BENJAMIN MAKAU & TSELANE &#9;&#9; JACOBINA MOSEBI

DAY :&#9;2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. May I know call Jack Mofokeng?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mofokeng, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

JACK MOFOKENG: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. 

&#9;Mr Mofokeng, were you together with Phillip Mosia, Solomon Sera and Isaac Mohomane involved in an incident where two police officers were killed? 

MR MOFOKENG: That's correct.

MR MHLABA: And you are presently serving a prison term in respect of the offence, is that correct?

MR MOFOKENG: That's correct.

MR MHLABA: And the reason for you coming before this Committee today is to apply for an amnesty in respect of those offences, is that correct?

MR MOFOKENG: That's correct.

MR MHLABA: For record purposes, can you confirm whether you were born in 1960 on December the 1st, is that correct?

MR MOFOKENG: That's correct.

MR MHLABA: Your educational background, up to what standard did you go at school?

MR MOFOKENG: I ended up in standard three, when I passed standard three.

MR MHLABA: The reason you apply for amnesty is that the offences which you've committed were committed with a political objective, is that correct?

MR MOFOKENG: That's correct.

MR MHLABA: Can you explain to the Committee if you belonged to any political movement during the period June 1993 and also the name of the organisation and your level of involvement therein.

MR MOFOKENG: I was an ANC supporter and then in 1991 I joined the SDU.

MR MHLABA: How did you come to join the SDU?

MR MOFOKENG: I was recruited by Isaac Mohomane.

MR MHLABA: And did he tell the - did you know of the existence of those SDUs and do you know what they were all about?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes, I had information that they were protecting the community. That was the main task of the SDU. It was divided into two groups. There was this SDU that was known to the community but I was operating under this SDU that was not known to the community.

MR MHLABA: You've indicated in your application form that you were a member of the African National Congress, do you know if there is any relationship between the SDU within which you were operating and the African National Congress?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes, I do.

MR MHLABA: Was there a relationship?

MR MOFOKENG: That's correct, there was that relationship.

MR MHLABA: Who was your immediate commander in the SDUs?

MR MOFOKENG: It was comrade Mohomane.

MR MHLABA: Were you getting orders from him only or were you getting orders from any other person other than him?

MR MOFOKENG: No, I only received instructions from comrade Mohomane.

MR MHLABA: And were you satisfied that your comrade was acting within the level of command of the African National Congress?

MR MOFOKENG: That is correct, I was satisfied because I had faith in him.

MR MHLABA: How long have you known Mr Mohomane before he recruited you to the SDUs?

MR MOFOKENG: I only knew him in 1991, in October.

MR MHLABA: You were then involved in this incident where the two police officers were killed, can you tell the Committee how you planned the killing?

MR MOFOKENG: We planned this operation at Beirut, at comrade Mosia's place but by then I already knew that the police have to be attacked. We met there on Thursday and then they said we should come back again on Friday, like they have already explained that they found me there.

MR MHLABA: Before the planning of this killing, were you aware that Mohomane was a suspect in a robbery case?

MR MOFOKENG: No, I didn't know about that, I only learnt of that after I was arrested.

MR MHLABA: Can you continue and explain to the Committee how everything was planned and subsequently executed, with full details of every transaction which followed.

MR MOFOKENG: Comrade Mohomane told us that the leadership has instructed the soldiers and the police should be attacked and we should attack all the government buildings and police stations but he said we should not take their weapons because the police were harassing the community. They were killing the people. We were being attacked by police dogs. So that is how the instruction was given to us, that we should attack the police. 

&#9;Then we went out, that is Solomon Sera and Isaac Mohomane. I was left at comrade Mosia's place with him. I had a 9mm with me. When they came back and they told us they have identified the police vehicle at the shopping complex so they've come to collect us, me and comrade Mosia.

&#9;When we arrived at the shopping complex I saw that police van, then we sent Phillip Mosia to go inside and confirm whether police were there. When he came back he told us that he saw three policemen. That is how he explained to us, that they were still having their meal inside the restaurant and they were policemen.

MR MHLABA: You mentioned that when you went there you found a police vehicle and identified it to be such, do you know whether this vehicle was driven by, was being used by specific police officers?

MR MOFOKENG: I only knew that it was used by the police but I did not know specifically which policemen were using that car.

MR MHLABA: Yes, you may proceed and explain to us from the moment when you have sent Mosia to go and check if they were in fact the police who were inside there.

MR MOFOKENG: He came back and he confirmed that they were police but he didn't tell us their names, he just said to us he saw three policemen.

&#9;So we waited for them but they never came out. He went back inside. So when he went inside he realised that they were about to leave the restaurant.

&#9;A few minutes thereafter they came out to their vehicle. While they were approaching their vehicle we saw them and that is when we attacked them. We shot at them till the two died.

MR MHLABA: I am able to note from your application form, that is page 18 of the paginated bundle, that your signature at the foot of your application appears to be a different handwriting from the rest of the information which is completed in the form. Can you tell the Committee who completed this form on your behalf?

MR MOFOKENG: The person who filled this form for me was my commander, that is Isaac Mohomane.

MR MHLABA: You have already indicated that you went up to standard three, were you able to comprehend this application form, to read and understand it?

MR MOFOKENG: No, I did not understand this application form but there were other places or portions of this application that I would understand.

MR MHLABA: So in other words you relied mainly on your commander to assist you, is that correct?

MR MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: So you're telling this Committee that the police officers were identified as legitimate targets of the SDUs and that was the information which you were getting from your commander, is that correct?

MR MOFOKENG: Can you repeat the question please?

MR MHLABA: Is it your case that the police were identified by the command structures as a legitimate target of and enemies of your political organisation?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes, we regarded them as our enemies.

MR MHLABA: Is it your case that in eliminating these police officers you were ensuring that your political organisation obtained its objectives?

MR MOFOKENG: That's correct.

MR MHLABA: And these police officers were regarded as stumbling blocks, is that correct?

MR MOFOKENG: ...(no English translation) That's correct, because they were wrongfully used by the regime.

MR MHLABA: Other than what you've already explained to the Committee, do you have anything to add in support of your application?

MR MOFOKENG: I'm very happy that this Committee has made it possible for me to meet families of the deceased so that I can ask for forgiveness before them, because it was not my intention, it was because of the unrest and violence of that time that we ended up killing these policemen.

&#9;We as the members of the ANC and the SDU did not accept what the police were doing to the community, so I'm happy now that we have achieved our goals, that is freedom. So I also ask for forgiveness so that I can be free and I can come out and contribute to the upliftment of our communities outside.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair, that concludes the evidence of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Sesele, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. 

&#9;Mr Mofokeng, when you were recruited into the SDU by Mr Mohomane, were you told what was going to be your job, your work?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes, that is correct.

MR SESELE: You said there were two groups of SDUs, one group was known to the community and the other one was not known to the community.

MR MOFOKENG: That is correct.

MR SESELE: And you belonged to the group that was not known to the community?

MR MOFOKENG: That is correct, we were known by the leadership.

MR SESELE: What was the work of the first group that was known by the community?

MR MOFOKENG: It was the same work that we did to protect the community but they were not doing exactly what we were doing in terms of methods to protect the community because we were an underground structure.

MR SESELE: And your immediate commander was Mr Mohomane?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes, that is correct, it was comrade Mohomane.

MR SESELE: Did you have regular meetings with him?

MR MOFOKENG: We met once or twice a week.

MR SESELE: Except for Mr Mohomane, was there any other leader from a higher structure whom you knew?

MR MOFOKENG: No, Sir.

MR SESELE: It appears from your application forms that no mention is made of Mr Mohomane, do you remember making mention of his names when these application forms were completed by him?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes, that is correct. I explained to him and then he said to me we would only mention his name when we appear before the Commission.

MR SESELE: When you were called and you heard that there were two police officers in the restaurant, were you told the names of those police officers?

MR MOFOKENG: No, Sir, I was not told of their identity.

MR SESELE: In Court a certain witness called Mr Kele gave uncontradicted evidence that Mr Mohomane is the one who made the suggestion that Sergeant Makau should be killed because he was investigating a case against him, did you hear anything like that in Court?

MR MOFOKENG: That is a lie, that is a person who was used by the police, he was bought with money because even in Court he said he does not know me though we know each other, then he said he doesn't know me. Then I asked him why does he deny that he knew me ...(no English translation)

MR SESELE: Did you personally know the two police officers who were killed?

MR MOFOKENG: I did not know them, I only knew the car.

MR SESELE: After the shooting incident, say even in prison, was there any mention made of Sergeant Makau?

MR MOFOKENG: You mean when we were in prison or do you mean during the trial or when we were in prison? It was that person called Kele who created that confusion. He came to us with money and he wanted to bribe our comrade, so that was the person who was creating that confusion. I didn't hear that.

MR SESELE: Whilst you were in prison before you were convicted, didn't you hear Mr Mohomane talking about Sergeant Makau?

MR MOFOKENG: No, Sir, we were not in the same cell with him.

MR SESELE: Throughout your detention you have never been in the same cell with Mr Mohomane?

MR MOFOKENG: I don't know those people, I didn't hear them. I didn't hear Mr Mohomane mention those names.

MR SESELE: You didn't know Mr Mohomane, is that what you're saying?

MR MOFOKENG: Pardon?

MR SESELE: Are you saying that you didn't know ...(intervention)

MR MOFOKENG: I'm saying I did not know the identity of those policemen and I didn't even hear Mr Mohomane mentioning their names whilst we were in prison.

MR SESELE: You said you understood from Mr Mohomane that the ANC leadership approved of your actions, is that right?

MR MOFOKENG: May you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR SESELE: You said you got the impression from Mr Mohomane that the SDUs you were going to be involved with in attacking the police station, attacking the police, that action of yours was known by the leadership and approved.

MR MOFOKENG: Yes, I do, because he was my commander. I agreed with whatever he said.

MR SESELE: I put it to you, Mr Mofokeng, that when the shooting in particular Sergeant Makau, the only person who had to gain and perhaps even yourself, was Mr Mohomane because he wanted to get rid of somebody who was investigating him.

MR MOFOKENG: I don't know that, I hear that for the first time from you.

MR SESELE: At the restaurant, if I heard you properly you were told that there were three policemen in the restaurant.

MR MOFOKENG: Comrade Mosia informed us that there were three. We were surprised that we only saw two. Even if it was a lot of policemen in that kombi we would attack them still.

MR SESELE: Would you know what happened to the third policeman in the restaurant?

MR MOFOKENG: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?

MR SESELE: Would you know what happened to the third policeman in the restaurant?

MR MOFOKENG: I don't know, Sir.

MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sesele. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson, thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination, Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: No re-examination, thank you Mr Chair.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

DR TSOTSI: One or two questions.

&#9;About the SDUs, how are they constituted? You say there were two SDUs, one for the community and another one underground. How was the community SDU constituted?

MR MOFOKENG: We were working underground, we were an underground movement. So people knew us during the day, they just took us as normal people, as ordinary people.

DR TSOTSI: Yes, but you don't answer my question. My question was, what about the SDUs who were known to the community, how were they constituted?

MR MOFOKENG: Their main function was to report to our commanders about the operations, then we will receive our instruction through them.

DR TSOTSI: How were they made up? I'm trying to find out if there is any connection between them and the ANC.

Do you know or don't you know how they were formed?

MR MOFOKENG: I did not know how they were constituted, maybe their commander knew about that because I was not part of the leadership so I didn't have that information then.

DR TSOTSI: Now you say that Mohomane told you that the leadership had ordered that the police should be attacked, did he explain to you who this leadership was that he was referring to?

MR MOFOKENG: He told us that we'll have to meet Mr Mofokeng but unfortunately I was arrested before I could meet Mr Mofokeng.

DR TSOTSI: Are you saying that Mofokeng was part of that leadership?

MR MOFOKENG: That is how he explained it to me.

MR SESELE: But you don't know the higher leadership?

MR MOFOKENG: In our area Steve Potlela was one of the leadership there but I don't know other leaders.

DR TSOTSI: To whom was Mr Mohomane answerable, do you know?

MR MOFOKENG: He told me about Mr Mofokeng, he never mentioned other people.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, do you have any questions to ask the witness?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;You spoke about two SDUs, one known to the community, the other not known to the community. My question is, did the SDU known to the community attack any police?

MR MOFOKENG: No, it did not.

MR SIBANYONI: If I say to you it's for the first time that I hear that there was some SDU which was operating underground, not known to the people, what would be your response?

MR MOFOKENG: I've got that information, that is how this was explained to me by Isaac Mohomane. So I'm surprised that is the first time that you hear about that.

MR SIBANYONI: If the community did not know about your structure, the SDU, how would they approach you and ask for protection?

MR MOFOKENG: They did not have the powers to approach us. They were supposed to approach our commanders and our leaders and our commanders will come to us and give us instructions. That is, people including Isaac Mohomane they will give us instructions to protect the community.

MR SIBANYONI: Did Isaac Mohomane tell you why when completing the forms you shouldn't mention his name but only when you appear before the Committee?

MR MOFOKENG: He told me that it was not necessary. He said to me it will only be necessary if I mention his name here before the families of the deceased.

MR SIBANYONI: When he was assisting you, were you alone or were you in the company of the other applicants?

MR MOFOKENG: It was only the two of us, me and Mr Mohomane.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you perhaps briefly explain how this attack took place, who actually shot at the two policemen?

MR MOFOKENG: It's myself and Isaac Mohomane who shot the two policemen.

MR SIBANYONI: How many times did you fire the shots?

MR MOFOKENG: I don't remember, maybe it can be nine or ten times, but I don't remember well.

MR SIBANYONI: What type of weapon were you using?

MR MOFOKENG: I was a 9mm.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you know how many times did Mosia fire shots?

MR MOFOKENG: Mosia did not shoot because he did not have a weapon, it's only myself and Isaac Mohomane who had weapons.

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry, I wanted to say Isaac Mohomane. Did you notice how many times he fired shots?

MR MOFOKENG: Well I don't remember, it may three times or four times, I don't remember well because he was armed with a 3.7.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks. Mr Mofokeng, are you related to Mr Mofokeng, also known as Craig Khumalo?

MR MOFOKENG: I've already explained that. I've never that person until I was arrested. I was only told by my commander that there is somebody known as Mofokeng but I've never met him.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what the point was in having two types of SDUs, why have an underground SDU and an open publicly known SDU?

MR MOFOKENG: To my knowledge people are not interested to join this SDU which was operating underground.

CHAIRPERSON: No, the question was, what is the point in having ...(end of tape)

MR MOFOKENG: The importance was that was to protect the community.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that was also the function of the SDU known by the community, the ones which we normally hear of. They were created for that purpose, it's apparent from their name, Self Defence Unit, but why have an underground one that no-one must know about? If you don't know you must just say so.

MR MOFOKENG: Well I don't know, maybe my commander knows that.

CHAIRPERSON: You say there were four of you in your unit, the four applicants here?

MR MOFOKENG: Pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: Your unit just consisted of you, the four applicants?

MR MOFOKENG: Yes, it was only the four of us because other people were not interested.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this your first operation?

MR MOFOKENG: That's correct, it was my first operation.

CHAIRPERSON: So you joined the SDU in 1991 and you had no operations for the rest of 1991, the whole of 1992 and then your first operation was in June 1993?

MR MOFOKENG: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And yet you used to meet twice a week with each other, or at least with your leader?

MR MOFOKENG: That's correct.

DR TSOTSI: Now what were your regular meetings for if not to plan for operations?

MR MOFOKENG: The importance of these meetings was to plan. There were many things that we were discussing, including planning of operations.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MR MHLABA: No thank you, I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele?

MR SESELE: No thank you, Mr Chairman, no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir, no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mofokeng, that concludes your testimony.

WITNESS EXCUSED

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;AMNESTY HEARING

DATE:&#9;17TH NOVEMBER 1998

NAME:&#9;PHILLIP MOSIA

APPLICATION NO: AM 3127/96 

INCIDENT: MURDER OF TWO POLICEMEN - 

&#9;&#9; MOKETE BENJAMIN MAKAU & TSELANE &#9;&#9; JACOBINA MOSEBI

DAY :&#9;2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair. May I now call on Mr Phillip Mosia?

PHILLIP MOSIA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba?

EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair.

&#9;Mr Mosia, can you confirm that you were born during December 1959, on the 1st?

MR MOSIA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: And can you give the Committee your educational background, up to what standard did you attend school?

MR MOSIA: Up to standard two, Sir.

MR MHLABA: You were involved in a crime where two police officers were killed and at the time of the commission of this offence you were in the company of your co-applicants, being Jack Mofokeng, Solomon Sera and Isaac Mohomane, is that correct?

MR MOSIA: That is correct, Sir.

MR MHLABA: You are presently serving a prison term in respect of the various offences, is that correct?

MR MOSIA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MHLABA: You have applied for amnesty in respect of the very offences, can you explain to the Committee whether you are the one who completed this form or was it done on your behalf by somebody else?

MR MOSIA: Somebody helped me to fill out this form.

MR MHLABA: Can you tell us who helped you?

MR MOSIA: It was the ANC desk, Sir.

MR MHLABA: Where was this form completed, did they visit you in prison or did you attend to their offices?

MR MOSIA: They paid me a visit in prison.

MR MHLABA: Was that pursuant to a request from yourself or can you explain how it came?

MR MOSIA: They came to all comrades who were in maximum prison.

MR MHLABA: So in other words you're telling this Committee that you were known by the ANC desk to be a member of the organisation?

MR MOSIA: That is correct.

MR MHLABA: The reason on which you are applying for amnesty is that the offences in question were committed with a political objective and you've already indicated that you belonged to the African National Congress. Can you tell the Committee of your involvement in the ANC?

MR MOSIA: I was a member of the ANC as from 1986. I became a full member of the ANC in 1990. I became involved with SDUs in 1991.

MR MHLABA: And while a member of the SDU, who was your immediate commander?

MR MOSIA: It was Isaac Mohomane, Sir.

MR MHLABA: Were you getting instructions from any other persons or were you getting instructions only from Isaac Mohomane?

MR MOSIA: I received instructions from Isaac Mohomane, and that I should keep the guns in my place.

MR MHLABA: So the guns were kept at your place, is that correct?

MR MOSIA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MHLABA: When did you come to know Isaac Mohomane, before joining the SDUs or only when you were recruited to the SDUs?

MR MOSIA: I knew him for a long time because he was attending school next to where I grew up.

MR MHLABA: Did you know or were you ever told of him being a suspect in a robbery case?

MR MOSIA: Do you mean did I know or I was informed?

MR MHLABA: Did you know, or yes, informed and gained knowledge of that.

MR MOSIA: He told me that he was arrested for a robbery case and then he was just a suspect, therefore he was acquitted for that case.

MR MHLABA: When did you come to know of that, when did he tell you, was it after this operation or was it before, that is the operation of the 5th of June '93?

MR MOSIA: That is before the operation because he was arrested and then he received bail, then he came to my house and informed about that particular case. That he was arrested together with unknown people who were policemen, then I was surprised.

MR MHLABA: Did he tell you was the investigating officer in that matter?

MR MOSIA: No, he did not.

MR MHLABA: On this very operation, can you tell this Committee how it was planned and for how long were you involved in the planning of the very operation on the 5th of June '93? Was it planned a night before the operation or some weeks, months, before the operation?

MR MOSIA: Which operation do you mean?

MR MHLABA: I'm talking about the incident on the 5th of June '93, where two police officers were shot dead.

MR MOSIA: He was talking about it on Thursday, then they met at my place, then he said all of us who were members of SDUs must meet on Friday, then they came on Friday. Then he left this 15 shooter gun at my place and the 38. 

&#9;On Thursday they came together with other SDU members. Solomon Sera was not present. Mofokeng arrived and Sera arrived later. He came with a car. They went together with Isaac Mohomane to go and identify targets. They left. After some time they returned. It was at dusk. Then they informed us they were able to identify a police car but they don't know how many policemen were inside that van, so we should go there. 

&#9;So he took this 15 shooter, he gave it to comrade Jack Mofokeng. We went into the car. We went to that place, shopping centre, we parked, then we saw that police van within other cars. Then he instructed me to go inside so that I will be able to identify those policemen and how many there are. 

&#9;I bought cigarettes, then I looked at those policemen, then I was able to identify them. Then I bought the cigarettes, then able to identify the three policemen. I went outside. There were two male police and one female police.

&#9;After informing them that after some time they informed me to go again inside the restaurant. I went there for the second time. Then I was able to see that they were finishing their meal, they were just about to go outside.

&#9;Then I went outside, informed my comrades and said: "It looks like they are just about to leave". He told Solomon Sera to leave and park the car so that we'd get the car ready. After some time the police went outside the restaurant, then they looked as to whether who were going straight to the car. 

&#9;I saw only two policemen going direct to the car, that is where they started shooting them. I was at the back sitting down looking at them. After they were shot at we went to the car where Sera was and then we went inside the car. 

&#9;We dropped comrade Mohomane at his place and comrade Mofokeng at his place. After a day, that is on Saturday, Solomon Sera brought the gun, that is a 9mm to my place, then he told me that there are police and soldiers who are going inside all the houses in the vicinity, who were searching. Then he said I should remove the gun in my place.

&#9;A certain friend of mine whose name is Tshabalala arrived then I requested him to hide that gun at his or her place. I told him or her that I would come and pick up that gun, I don't know when. 

&#9;We were arrested on the 9th and the police were looking for the gun. That is where I led the police to Tshabalala. That is where the gun was identified as SDU property because I was given that gun by Isaac Mohomane.

MR MHLABA: You have told the Committee of you going into the restaurant to identify the police officers, did you recognise or know any of the police officers inside the restaurant?

MR MOSIA: I did not know their identity, I only knew them as police. I saw on their faces that they were police.

MR MHLABA: I want to take you back to the moment when you joined the SDUs. Did you become a member of the ANC before you joined the SDUs or did you join the SDUs first and then became a member of the ANC?

MR MOSIA: I became the member of the ANC and thereafter I became a member of the SDU. I was a member of the ANC before I became a member of the SDU.

MR MHLABA: Do you know whether the people who were being recruited to be SDU members needed to be of necessity members of the ANC?

MR MOSIA: That is correct. The way comrade Mohomane explained it to us I had faith in him.

MR MHLABA: So were you satisfied that this very operation, the incident of the killing these police officers, had the blessings of the command structures of the ANC?

MR MOSIA: He told us before that he had already taken the decision with the leadership that on that particular, on Friday, we have to take out that operation of killing the policemen.

MR MHLABA: So is it your case that in carrying out this operation you genuinely believed that you were furthering the interests of the African National Congress?

MR MOSIA: That's correct.

MR MHLABA: Is there anything you want to add to the Committee in support of your application, other than the facts which you've already put before the Committee?

MR MOSIA: I'm happy that this Committee has afforded me this opportunity that I should meet the members of the deceased whom I did not know so that I can ask for forgiveness from him for what had happened. It was not my intention, that is how things were during the apartheid days, we were involved in a war. Police were fighting against the community and the community were fighting against the police. The police were in cahoots with the IFP in killing members of the community. I am therefore thankful to this Committee for affording me this opportunity that I'm able to meet members of the deceased.

MR MHLABA: I am noting in paragraph 9 - I'm referring the Panel to page 7 of the paginated bundle, paragraph 9(a)(i) of your application forms where you indicated, you identified the act or omission or offence as murder whereas you have indicated here from the evidence which was tendered it would appear that there were two counts of murder and also you indicated that you used to possess firearms which you did not have a licence to carry. Is it your desire to bring an application to the Committee to amend your application form to include the other count of murder as well as the unlawful possession of a firearm.

MR MOSIA: The person who helped me to fill in this ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, do you wish to amend your application form to include the two murders and the unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition? That is the question, do you wish to? Because it only says one murder here, or it only just mentions murder, do you want to amend it to include all the offences that were committed by your group and yourself on the 5th of June 1993?

MR MOSIA: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Any objection, Mr Sesele?

MR SESELE: No objection, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No objection, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Mhlaba, we'll then amend the application form accordingly to include all the offences committed on that day and also in respect of which the applicant was convicted of.

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair, that concludes the testimony of Mr Mosia.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: I've been requested to have a short adjournment. I think I'd like to finish this application though, the evidence seeing that we, is there going to be other evidence to be called? We may as well find that out now.

MR MHLABA: There is no other evidence from the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele, do you intend calling other witnesses?

MR SESELE: ...(inaudible) the issue up with the families and then I'll come back to the Committee immediately thereafter, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: I think at this stage if we could then just take a very short adjournment and then we will conclude the evidence of this applicant today and then decide whether if there is further evidence whether to continue today or tomorrow. But we'll take a short adjournment at this stage, just 10 minutes or 5 to 10 minutes, thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

ON RESUMPTION

SOLOMON MOSIA: (s.u.o.)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele, do you have any questions to put to the witness?

MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I do have some questions and then I just want to indicate that I won't be calling any other witness hereafter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SESELE: When you were recruited into this SDU by Mr Mohomane did you know whether you were going to be operating underground or be known to the community?

MR MOSIA: ...(inaudible)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, it you could repeat what you said now Mr Mosia, because the interpreters couldn't hear what you were saying.

MR MOSIA: I was known by the community that I was a member of the SDU.

MR SESELE: You say you knew of the pending case against Mr Mohomane and he knew of it before the 5th of June 1993.

MR MOSIA: Yes, that is correct, I knew.

MR SESELE: When he told you, were you the only two or were there other members of the Self Defence Unit?

MR MOSIA: We were at my place.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, did the other members of your unit, your Self Defence Unit, know of the pending case against your commander?

MR MOSIA: The were people but he told me from the side, no people heard what he was telling me.

MR SESELE: Did he also not tell you - did he also tell you who was handling that case?

MR MOSIA: He did not tell me about the person responsible for the investigation of that case, he told me that he was arrested and he received bail for the robbery case.

MR SESELE: Did you attend regular meetings with Mr Mohomane and the other unit members?

MR MOSIA: Yes, because they were attending those meetings in my place.

MR SESELE: At page 10 of your application, at page 10 of the bundle, paragraph 11(a) it is stated as follows:

&#9;&#9;"At meetings which were held at Phuthaditjhaba Hall and stadium, it was declared that Qwa Qwa Police were enemies of the people. There was no direct order from any leader of the ANC but we acted upon the declaration."

Were you present at such meetings at the hall and at the stadium where the declaration was made?

MR MOSIA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SESELE: Who made such declarations?

MR MOSIA: That is Steve Potlela.

MR SESELE: Did Mr Mohomane make any such declaration also?

MR MOSIA: Yes, he did.

MR SESELE: What do you mean when you say there was no direct order from any leader of the ANC?

MR MOSIA: What kind of instructions, Sir, or order?

MR MOSIA: In this paragraph that was referred to in your application it is said, and I'll read from it, this is paragraph 11(a) as it appears on page 10 of the bundle and this is what your application states:

&#9;&#9;"There was no direct order from any leader of the ANC."

And now what Mr Sesele is asking you is, what do you mean by that? 

&#9;Is that correct?

MR SESELE: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR MOSIA: The order came from Mr Mohomane who was the commander of the Self Defence Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: That's what you've said but what did you mean to say when you said in your application form:

&#9;&#9;"There was no direct order from any leader of the ANC."

MR MOSIA: Maybe we had a misunderstanding with the person who was helping me to fill up this form.

MR SESELE: Who was helping you to fill the form?

MR MOSIA: That is comrade Mongesi.

MR SESELE: You have also submitted a letter to the Amnesty Committee, and that is page 13 of the bundle. The last paragraph, second sentence reads as follows:

&#9;&#9;"We acted on behalf of the ANC. We were carrying out orders from our authorities, that is why I justify my crime as a political one."

Do you remember making such a statement?

MR MOSIA: Yes.

MR SESELE: And this letter is dated the 29th of June, whereas ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's 1998.

MR SESELE: ... whereas your application form is dated the 26th September 1996. Now between the two dates how come you further submit this letter wherein you now allege that orders came from the authorities in the ANC?

MR MOSIA: It's because I received a letter from the TRC. They were asking me three, four questions. The questions generally were requesting that why should I say this act is a political act and then I should give them the case number. That is why I wrote this letter in response to the letter I received from the TRC.

MR SESELE: I put it to you that your taking part in the killing of the two police officers was an attempt to get the investigating officer off Mr Mohomane's back.

MR MOSIA: I don't identify myself with that armed robbery case because I don't know anything about that.

MR SESELE: I'm also putting to you that the rest of the members of the SDUs who are applicants in this matter knew about the robbery case against Mr Mohomane, that is why they participated in this killing.

MR MOSIA: I don't believe that they know because they are not staying with him in the township. I am the one who was staying with him in the township because he was coming regularly at my place because he was attending school next to my place. He used to come to me regularly.

MR SESELE: You have also said that - if I remember well, you have also said that you saw the policemen in the restaurant by their faces. In other words you saw by their faces that they were policemen, is that right?

MR MOSIA: Because I knew the policemen who were working within our township.

MR SESELE: So you knew the two officers before the incident?

MR MOSIA: Yes, I knew them. ...(no English translation)

MR SESELE: Isn't it true that you specifically targeted the two officers because of the grudge that Mr Mohomane had with one of them?

MR MOSIA: No, Sir, I don't know as to whether they were associated with the armed robbery case. There were not two, there were three but when they went out to the car I saw the two of them. Inside the restaurant there were three.

MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Sesele. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: None, Mr Chairman.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Doctor Tsotsi, any questions?

DR TSOTSI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibanyoni, any questions?

MR SIBANYONI: Only a single question, Mr Chairperson.

&#9;Would you say this mission to go and attack the police was Mr Mohomane's idea?

MR MOSIA: Yes, he's the one who came with this idea then he said it came from the ANC offices, from the one who was senior to him who instructed him. So he came to us to instruct us to carry out this operation.

MR SIBANYONI: But you personally do not know who is that one who is senior than Mohomane, am I correct?

MR MOSIA: No, I don't know that person. He told us that he would introduce us to this person who instructed him but we have never met him.

MR SIBANYONI: When you saw these police people in the restaurant, was it for the first time you met them or were they people you have seen before?

MR MOSIA: I was not seeing them for the first time, I knew them because they were working in our township because we used to meet them time and again.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you also know who they are or who they were?

MR MOSIA: Yes, I knew their identity.

MR SIBANYONI: You knew that one of them was Mr Makau?

MR MOSIA: Mr Makau.

MR SIBANYONI: Makau, yes.

MR MOSIA: Yes, that is correct, I knew him.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Who were recruited by to join the SDU?

MR MOSIA: That is comrade Mohomane, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you belong to any other SDU units other than this one consisting of you and the other applicants in this matter?

MR MOSIA: I was a member of the ANC, then I was introduced to the SDU by Mr Mohomane.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you work with any other units of the SDU, other than this one consisting of yourself and the other applicants?

MR MOSIA: We had many SDUs who used to meet at my place. We were just discussing generally with them.

CHAIRPERSON: So you didn't do any other operations with them?

MR MOSIA: No, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Were any of the firearms that you kept legal, I mean in the sense that they were licensed and their possession was legal?

MR MOSIA: Only guns which were brought my Mr Mohomane, then he told me that they belonged to the organisation. I didn't know anything as to whether they had licences or not.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the panel?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MHLABA

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sesele?

MR SESELE: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR SESELE

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Just one, Chairperson.

&#9;Mr Mosia, you have just told the Committee that you did not participate in any other operation except for the one in this application, do you remember that?

MR MOSIA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Are you serious?

MR MOSIA: Yes, I'm serious, Sir, because the one which I was together with Kubeka and Motlokoa I was not found guilty, I was acquitted. Therefore it is very difficult to talk about that before this Commission.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, that concludes your testimony, you may stand down.

WITNESS EXCUSED

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mhlaba?

MR MHLABA: Thank you, Chair. I am not ready to address the Committee now, nor am I in a position to indicate at this very stage whether this will conclude the testimony on behalf of all the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you wish then to postpone till tomorrow?

MR MHLABA: I will be so happy.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. I see that it's now after half past four, we'll then postpone this matter until tomorrow. What time will be convenient, gentlemen?

MR MHLABA: 9 o'clock will be convenient for me or even earlier if it so pleases the Committee.

MR SESELE: I will be available, Mr Chairman, from 9 o'clock or even earlier, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I think then if we can postpone to 9 o'clock, would that suit you? We'll postpone this matter then till 9 o'clock tomorrow, either to receive further evidence, we don't know or alternatively if that is not the case then for legal submissions to be made, submissions to be made by the legal representatives. We'll then adjourn until tomorrow at 9 o'clock in the morning, thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

