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&#9;1&#9;W T SITHOLE
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&#9;1&#9;W T SITHOLE 

&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;03.12.1996&#9;NAME:&#9;W T SITHOLE

CASE:&#9;JB02509&#9;&#9;-&#9;MOUTSE

DAY 2

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CHAIRPERSON: Lydia Komape Ngwenya, Member of Parliament. Is Mrs Ngwenya here? Where is she. I am told that she is out for an interview, but welcome to her nonetheless. Mrs Ngwenya, welcome, glad to have you with us. Then a member of the Moutse TLC, Martha Maklala. Where is Mrs Maklala. Probably also still coming in, but welcome. Oupa Rakow of the National Initiative for Reconciliation. Where is Mr Rakow, Oupa? There he is. Welcome to you too and then I want to extend a special word of welcome, also, to two members of Safety and Security, really responsible for all the arrangements outside. Mr Sipho Shongwe and Piet Mellow. Could the two gentlemen, if they inside at the moment, just show themselves. Probably attending to our wellbeing here, but welcome and thank you again to them as well. 

&#9;May I then further check whether some of the witnesses who had not arrived this morning yet could be around at the moment. It is Mrs Martha Mthimunye. Has she arrived? Aaron Mashiyane, Jan Sipho Mahlangu and Amos Khubeka, Amos Bongani Khubeka. Not here. Okay, if they should come tomorrow as we have had witnesses who were placed for yesterday and testified today, we may be able to hear their stories too, but I then call to the witness stand Mrs Windy Thabile Sithole who will be giving evidence in connection with the death of her husband. This is a necklacing case.

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&#9;I did, while she is taking the stand, earlier refer to statement by her when Prince James Mahlangu was on the stand and I have already, again, spoken to her, confirmed the mentioning of the statement and that she should feel free to give her understanding of the situation as it was as to what was really the factual situation, that is for us to be found out, but it does not help much if we have ideas in our minds and we do not speak them, because then we will continue to have a specific perception or understanding which cannot be changed even if that understanding is wrong. So, if we have the implication of people, it is against the background too, of the two statements that I quoted to Prince Mahlangu when he was on the stand.

&#9;Mrs Sithole, welcome. We really appreciate that you are here. We know that this is, in all respects for you, a very difficult experience. I did mention to you, my mentioning of your statement and I would like you to feel free to really share with us your knowledge and your understanding of the circumstances that led to the death of your husband. If you will please tell us your story as you know and understand it and after that we may put some questions to you. You also need to take the oath. I almost forgot about that. Will you please stand.

WINDY THABILE SITHOLE: (Duly sworn in, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much, you may be seated and you may continue with your story.

MRS SITHOLE: Majonie Mahlangu came to my place. I was sitting with my husband. I spoke with my husband because they use to talk alone. My husband came back and said to me that, to inform me that James Mahlangu wanted to see him. I asked him how are you going to go there because the 

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situation is dangerous. He said there is nothing I can say, I have to go there. He went to the shop. When he came back from the shop he said to me again he met at the shop, he confirmed that the Prince wanted to see me. He requested me to go to the shop to go and look after the business. 

&#9;After he had already left I went to the shop. I stayed outside of the shop because there were people who were working there. After some few hours, I think after five hours, and then I saw Majonie. There was a grand combi which was coming from the left side. While I looked at Majonie because the road was along the street. I was coming from the left side and then I saw another man called Mota, they were together, they were three. I saw that they were saying something to each other and then he came to me, Majonie came to me alone. He said to me your husband has been taken by the boys, by the youth. I asked him which boys and he said the comrades took him away. I asked him where he is. He said they took him, they went with him to the bush. I asked him what did you do? They said to me I should come back to you to inform you that they have taken him away. I asked him whether he saw where they took him to and then he said he does not know where they took him to except that they took him to the bush. He said he cannot be able to go and show me the bush where they took him to. He went to the Indoena. He left me alone. 

&#9;I requested one boy who was inside the shop, my boy Impigilelie. I sent him to Baba Sibiya to ask Mr Sibiya to take me to the police station. He arrived, Mr Sibiya, he took me to the police station. When arriving at the police station they took me, alighted me into the van. They took me to the Thabanie. On arrival at Thabanie at the school 

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known as Sityakoswa School, when I was in the van, there I saw Mervyn. It was inside the school. When I saw the van it was like it was, it seemed as if there was somebody inside. I thought my father, he was inside. 

CHAIRPERSON: Take your time. We know it is exceptionally difficult. Relax and when you feel together you may continue, but we will wait for you till you are ready to continue. 

MRS SITHOLE: When I arrived at the van with the hope that I will find him only to find that he was not in. I did not know what did I do. I saw, at that time, soldiers holding me. They took me back into the van. He said take the mother back home because she is making a lot of noise. They took me back home. When I arrived home, I stayed. At around six in the evening police came to take me to Jhana, they told me that my father was necklaced and was taken to Groblersdal mortuary. The van that was in the school, the very same van was set alight. 

&#9;The day for his burial arrived after nine days. He was buried. After his burial, after some two years there came a policeman by Apanje. That I must call my father-in-law to go to Pretoria where in we are going to be told how my father was killed. When we were inside he said witnesses were not there. He said one day he will come back to tell me. Until now I have not heard anything. It happened again in 1992 once still unrest we are in. 

&#9;The shop was hired by Mr Skosana. There was this thing that they need not buy from the Imbokhoto business. Other shop was still used. Did not arrive after two days, it was set alight. After it has been burnt in 1994, in 1993 the insurance paid me. KNDC paid for the buildings. I also 

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paid for that the buildings were still old. That I was supposed to pay for the building and I took the money. The father that his belongings burnt inside, it was said that his belongings must be paid for. Again, he came in and used that buildings and said that I need to pay for the materials that was inside. I have tried to go another lawyer whom I am striving with whilst I am working. Although it is difficult for me to take care of my children because others are still at school. 

CHAIRPERSON: Really, take your time. Do not feel pressured. 

MRS SITHOLE: Until now Mr Skosana is still in that store. I am still up and down. I am thinking of that as you have called us today, there is something that you will bring our hearts back so that the poor thing that we have seen can be solved. 

CHAIRPERSON: Is there anything more you want to share with us Mrs Sithole?

MRS SITHOLE: It is through now.

CHAIRPERSON: May I then start with a few questions. I really want to look at this issue of names because it is not singular to your statement. It happens in all statements and I want to get to the bottom of this in some way. You said in your statement that this Mr Majonie Mahlangu came to your house and he said that Prince James wanted to see your husband. That is correct. You heard that from Majonie. 

MRS SITHOLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You also gave evidence that when he returned he told you that the youth took your husband, the boys.

MRS SITHOLE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: He did not, at that stage say, that Prince 

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James took your husband. He said the youth. Okay.

MRS SITHOLE: No, he never said that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. The reason why I am raising this and in a sense I want to share it, also, with the audience, is that we find more and more statements where whatever happened to people, they link to the person that they perceive to be in leadership. For instance, they would say Prince James Mahlangu did that when they mean the youth did it. Or P W did it when they mean the Government did it or Nelson Mandela did it when they mean the ANC did it. This happens a lot, but in sharing on that basis people come to identify that with the individual and I just want to make it clear that is not to say that the people can run away from responsibility if they are associated with the group, but we need to distinct between individuals and the group as such. That is the reason why, really, I am putting this to you and I really appreciate it your mentioning the name of Prince James Mahlangu under the circumstances and I am pretty sure he also appreciates it. That helps to understand how the conflict spiralled into what was almost becoming something uncontainable. 

&#9;A follow-up question to this please, Mrs Sithole. Was your husband, indeed, a member of Imbokhoto? Do you know?

MRS SITHOLE: No, I was never a member of Imbokhoto.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think he was associated with Imbokhoto?

MRS SITHOLE: I was also surprised when Mahlangu came back and he told me like that. 

CHAIRPERSON: The burning of the business and all the businesses since, did I understand you correctly that you still relate that to the perception that it is an Imbokhoto 

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business and that is why they were burnt.

MRS SITHOLE: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. 

MRS SITHOLE: Could you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: I heard you say that in 1992, 1993, 1994 businesses were burnt and burnt again on the basis of those businesses belonging to Imbokhoto. So there is an inference that people in opposition to Imbokhoto were responsible for the burning of the businesses. Did I understand you correctly?

MRS SITHOLE: According to my own perception, I regarded, I take it like that because they said our shops should be boycotted because they were from Imbokhoto members. At our shop, it was not a shop belonging to a member of Imbokhoto because if they could allow people to go and buy. I was surprised when they started burning the shop. What are they burning the shop for because even at the beginning when they arrested, they took Sithole. I knew that he was not a member of Imbokhoto. I was surprised when they came back they said he was taken out by the boys. 

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Sithole, were there any arrests made in connection with the death of your husband? Did the police investigate? Did you have any further information?

MRS SITHOLE: I never heard anyone who was arrested after that. 

CHAIRPERSON: Have you have any report backs from the police?

MRS SITHOLE: As I have said the police came once at my place. They took me with my uncle. After that we heard nothing. They said there were no witnesses. The matter ended up there. 

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CHAIRPERSON: And this Mr Majonie Mahlangu, do you know where he is at present? Can he be contacted?

MRS SITHOLE: I had by rumours that he is in Witbank, but his house is in Siyabuswa and his family is staying there.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you ask him who the youth was, who the boys were that took your husband away? Did he name any of them?

MRS SITHOLE: No, because when he came to tell me about the incident my mind always was concentrated on him. They could no longer come to my place, was far away from me from there. CHAIRPERSON: If we should get around to further investigations, would you be able to help us with the address of Mr Majonie Mahlongu? Can you find him?

MRS SITHOLE: I only the stand number, but I do not know where he is working. 

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Mrs Sithole, thank you. I have no further questions, but my colleagues may have some. Dr Ally.

DR ALLY: Mrs Sithole, you said and we have to accept what you said, that your husband was not a member of Imbokhoto, but were you or your husband, were you involved in any way in the political conflict that was taking place at the time?

MRS SITHOLE: No, we were not involved, but when the unrest started we heard about it, but we were not involved in that situation. What I know with my husband is that he use to work with the headman who was called Ben Sithole for a very long time. He use to work with the headman, Ben Sithole. 

DR ALLY: And the headman, Ben Sithole, was he seen as being involved in any way, politically, what affiliation did he have? Do you know?

MRS SITHOLE: What I can is that Mr Sithole was working in 

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the tribal authority. He was old. I do not think he was an Imbokhoto because he use to call my husband when he go to the tribal authority to accompany him all the time. 

DR ALLY: Now, Mrs Sithole, if you are saying your husband was not involved and you were not involved and he was not Imbokhoto, why do you think then that Prince James would have wanted to speak to your husband? What is your understanding? Why did Majonie Mahlangu come and say that Prince James want to speak to your husband?

MRS SITHOLE: Majonie was a friend to my husband. There is nothing which he did not know about my husband. 

DR ALLY: So it seems then that if we are going to get some answers or some understanding and it is Majonie Mahlangu who will be able to, perhaps, assist us. It is important then that we do get an address or somewhere where we can trace him and ask him to try and shed some light on the matter. Thank you very much Mrs Sithole. 

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Seroke.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Sithole, you said the time Majonie came to fetch your husband, you also say there was someone who confirmed again that Prince James called him. 

MRS SITHOLE: That is Joseph Mahlangu.

MS SEROKE: Where is this Joseph Mahlangu?

MRS SITHOLE: He is staying in Siyabuswa.

MS SEROKE: Could you be able to get an address for us?

MRS SITHOLE: Yes, of course. 

MS SEROKE: Lastly, when you say that your shop was burnt down in 1992, the Imbokhoto issue was still on in KwaNdebele during that time?

MRS SITHOLE: No, it was still there. Although they were not fighting as compared to 1986, the conflict was still 

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there.

MS SEROKE: How do you prove that the conflict was still going on?

MRS SITHOLE: Because they were saying that some other shops should be boycotted and others should not be boycotted. That is an indication that the conflict was still on.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Manthata.

MR MANTHATA: Mrs Sithole, you talk about the van that drove away. Was this a police van?

MRS SITHOLE: You are talking about the van which ran away?

MR MANTHATA: Right.

MRS SITHOLE: I talked about the van, my own van which was inside the school yard and then I met with the school principal. The police van which I saw, I thought my husband was inside the van. I could not see properly because when I went closer there was no one inside the van. 

MR MANTHATA: Are we talking about two vans here? Your van and that of the police?

MRS SITHOLE: When I went to Thabani I went there with the police van. When we arrived there at the school yard I saw my van which was next to the school building. That is the van I am talking about. 

MR MANTHATA: Who was in your van?

MRS SITHOLE: There was no one. 

MR MANTHATA: Which means that your husband was taken out of the van?

MRS SITHOLE: Yes. It was taken out of the van. It was burnt in the bushes and the van was burnt the following day.

MR MANTHATA: And the picture given was that all this was done by the youth?

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MRS SITHOLE: I cannot tell because even the police, the police should have brought the van back home. They said to me we will bring the van back, but they never brought the van back until we found it the following morning having been burnt.

MR MANTHATA: I know this is a very painful thing to ask. Had you ever known the leaders of the youth?

MRS SITHOLE: Yes, they are some of the people whom I knew. MR MANTHATA: And these that you knew, you just knew them as the leaders of the youth and/or it could have been, they could have been amongst those who abducted your husband?

MRS SITHOLE: I cannot tell you because I am also surprised. That is what I want to know. 

MR MANTHATA: And from your knowledge, you have never had, that is you and your husband, you have never had dealings with the youth before this incident.

MRS SITHOLE: No.

MR MANTHATA: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Sithole. Joyce Seroke.

MS SEROKE: Mrs Sithole, I heard you saying that remove this woman is making a lot of noise. Who are those soldiers?

MRS SITHOLE: They were white soldiers who pushed me inside the van. 

MS SEROKE: Are those people who took you from home?

MRS SITHOLE: When I went to look for my husband the driver was a black policeman, but when we arrived at the spot, there were Hippos and soldiers who were on the spot. They pushed me inside the van. They were white policemen. 

MS SEROKE: Thanks.

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please. With your permission, I want to make it clear again, for the purposes of reporting, that what Mrs Sithole told us was put to Prince James Mahlangu when he was at the witness stand. We asked him about the person Majonie Mahlangu, whether that rang a bell. It did not at the time and he denied involvement. So as far reporting is concerned, please, report the full facts so that we do not have the same kind of ill reporting on Prince James.

&#9;Mrs Sithole, thank you very much for your openness, for being prepared to discuss this in the presence of Prince James and others implicated. I will very much appreciate it if you, when you leave the stand, will make contact with one of our statement takers to get the addresses of both this Majonie Mahlangu's family and this Mr Joseph Mahlangu so we can see if we can get further statements from them to further investigate this case. 

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MOUTSE HEARING&#9;TRC/MPUMALANGA

