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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;&#9;15.12.96&#9;&#9;MOUTSE

NAME:&#9;&#9;ARTHUR KEKANE

ARTHUR KEKANE (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Arthur are you still in the police force?

CAPT KEKANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where? Where are you stationed?

CAPT KEKANE: I am at Ennersdale.

CAPT KEKANE: You heard when we were talking to Mrs Fourie and we want to hear your side of the story, what do you know about the death of these two people. You can continue, sir.

CAPT KEKANE: I don't remember the date but what I can then say, let me put it this way. The CID's came to my home after they arrested Fourie who was working under - he was the lieutenant and I was the warrant officer. And they came to me with a policeman who they arrested, they said this policeman shot at a person at Matete. I left with them, we went to the police station. And when I arrived at the police station I called the now deceased Fourie and I told him that a policeman has been arrested and I said to him Fourie we took his firearm the first time and we told him that he mustn't be in possession of a gun any more and now here he is, he was now involved in a shooting incident and we don't know how he got hold of the gun. And I said to Fourie do you have a police officer who is on standby to come and investigate this issue. Then Fourie said to me I do not know, I will check on the list but don't worry, I will personally come and we will go to the place and

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investigate, that is the place where this incident took place. This man, when they came to my house they were four. It was a man and a woman and a policeman and this other policeman was arrested and I don't know what happened but seemingly there was altercation and the policeman claimed this wife from her husband he released his gun and pulled the trigger and this man ran away. The policeman then took the woman but I don't know how this running man knew that the approaching vehicle was a police van. He stopped and they went back and they went searching all over for this man and this man's wife. By then the husband to this wife didn't know that the abductor was a policeman and that is when I called Fourie. I said Fourie this is a very complicated issue, please send someone who is on standby and he said no I am coming personally. He asked me how did he get hold of the gun, I said to him Fourie I do not know. He said I am preparing myself to leave now. When I arrived in Seobuswa I will contact you and take those people so that we can meet at a T-junction at Motete, that is the one leading to Marble Hall and Pretoria. He said we should meet at that T-junction. I don't know where he was at the time he contacted me but I think he was at Seobuswa because that was our agreement. He contacted me and I called the people that were in the office. The car was parked behind, I said to them let's go and we got into the car and we drove off. We were heading for the T-junction where we were supposed to meet with Fourie. When I arrived there his car was parked the other side of the road and I was this other side of the road and our cars were facing each other and I dimmed my lights for him so that he can realise it was me and no reaction from his side and I drove up to his car and I

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couldn't see anybody and I took my car, I drove past so that I can take a turn so that we can park our cars next to each other and I realised there wasn't anybody in the car and I jumped out of the car, I peeped through and I saw this person in the car and I called my senior to come and resolve this issue. I heard Mrs Fourie referring to Frans. I think there is a mistake that she didn't understand. Frans was fighting for promotion. I am talking about Frans Masiza and they altercated with Fourie and it came to my knowledge that this Frans wanted promotion, he was a constable and he said he didn't want be a sergeant, he wanted to be a warrant officer and if Fourie doesn't promote him he will go to Majozi and he will get that promotion, he will get the rank. That is what he said. Many senior police came to the scene then after I reported this. 

CHAIRPERSON: The people who were in your company to meet Fourie, where were they? 

CAPT KEKANE: They were in the car, it was a man and a woman, they were in the car. We were three in other words in this car. 

CHAIRPERSON: In other words you waited there until ....

CAPT KEKANE: Yes, I waited until the other policemen came. CHAIRPERSON: What did you do then after they arrived?

CAPT KEKANE: I don't remember who arrived first and what happened thereafter because I was shocked. I didn't know what to do but I managed to call them. They came flocking to the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this the statement - what you have just said now, is it a statement that you gave to the seniors who came to the scene?

CAPT KEKANE: Yes, that is the same statement. 

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CHAIRPERSON: Did you end up just there?

CAPT KEKANE: Yes, I don't know what happened thereafter because the other investigators took over because these two people had to go and point out where the policemen shot at them. Now the purpose for Fourie to come was to go and investigate this matter, to go and inspect the place where the shooting took place. 

CHAIRPERSON: Besides Frans Masiza isn't there anybody who was arrested on suspicion?

CAPT KEKANE: No, not according to my knowledge. 

CHAIRPERSON: Not even to call him in the office to question him?

CAPT KEKANE: I don't remember such activity taking place. We talked with Mashigo who is the person who shot a man wanting to take his wife from him and we asked him why did he shoot. He used a gun previously and he was disarmed and he was told not to carry a gun any more. 

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't it show that they might have taken a direction where you met the two deceased? 

CAPT KEKANE: I don't want to confirm that. I don't think there is any connection between the two. Mashigo was in conflict with the two people. He shot at this man at Matete far away from this place. He was shooting that man for ...

his wife. 

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kekane were not in conflict at any stage with Fourie?

CAPT KEKANE: No. This is Fourie's wife and she knows I used to visit Fourie and I used to go to her home to fetch Fourie's lunch and he used to send me to get him lunch. And I was working with him in Denalton. He was the station commander and I was the second in charge and he left this

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area to work where he was working and he called me to follow him and I left this area. 

CHAIRPERSON: Was it possible at that time to know the conflict that was going on between the Mbcoto and the comrades? Do you think he knew about this and they started to follow him?

CAPT KEKANE: Fourie used to attend meetings. He was in charge and he was well known. He used to go to their meetings and he used to go to the special meetings, he was the special person in charge, especially at Mahlanga. 

CHAIRPERSON: When you say he attended their meetings do you mean he was attending their meetings as a member or as a policeman?

CAPT KEKANE: No, he was attending meetings in his capacity was a policeman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you perhaps know what the attitude of the people was against the police?

CAPT KEKANE: No. People at that time didn't really like the police. 

MR LEWIN: Captain Kekane if I could please ask a couple of questions, if you could clarify some things for us. You mentioned finding the car and then looking into the car and you have just said that you saw Mr Fourie, Lieutenant Fourie. Did you just see one person or were there two people in the car?

CAPT KEKANE: I saw two people in the car. 

MR LEWIN: Did you recognise the other person?

CAPT KEKANE: No, I didn't recognise the second person.

MR LEWIN: And can you confirm that there was - at the time you didn't do anything else, you didn't try and investigate what had happened. You waited until your seniors came. 

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CAPT KEKANE: I didn't do anything except only calling the police because I was so shocked. I thought what happened to this man might also happen to me. I was the only policeman at the scene at that time. 

MR LEWIN: Did the car look as though it had been attacked?

CAPT KEKANE: Yes. 

MR LEWIN: Can you explain why.

CAPT KEKANE: It had bullet holes. 

MR LEWIN: But at that stage you didn't investigate the bullet holes.

CAPT KEKANE: No, I didn't investigate.

MR LEWIN: So was the car engine for instance still running?

CAPT KEKANE: No, it was not running.

MR LEWIN: No lights on?

CAPT KEKANE: No, the lights were not on.

MR LEWIN: And was this T-junction where the car was, was it the sort of place where someone or some people could have stopped it and attacked it?

CAPT KEKANE: According to the way it was parked I don't think people stopped it, no. He was parking his car in that fashion waiting for me. 

MR LEWIN: So you think the car had already stopped before it was attacked.

CAPT KEKANE: That is correct.

MR LEWIN: And was there any indication either then or later in the investigations as to how many people might have attacked the car?

CAPT KEKANE: It would be impossible for me to give an answer to that. We didn't see anything.

MR LEWIN: Could the two people in the car both have been killed by just one person acting alone?

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CAPT KEKANE: I think so because the bullet holes were only on the one side of the car. 

MR LEWIN: And do you think that you were the first person to have come onto the car after the attack? Was it a time when there would have been other traffic?

CAPT KEKANE: I do not know. I am only telling you that the first policeman to arrive there was myself. People were there but far away from the place. 

MR LEWIN: And I would like to confirm, you said that you had arranged with Lieutenant Fourie to meet at that point. 

CAPT KEKANE: That is correct.

MR LEWIN: So he was in fact driving to the spot where he expected to meet you.

CAPT KEKANE: That is correct.

MR LEWIN: Could you explain to us Mrs Fourie said that her impression was that he had been given a radio instruction and the place of the meeting point had been changed. 

CAPT KEKANE: That is not correct. We set an appointment to meet at the T-junction and it was agreed that when he arrived in Seobuswa he would give me a call so that we meet at the T-junction. We didn't set any other place. 

MR LEWIN: And that discussion between you and Lieutenant Fourie took place on the radio did it?

CAPT KEKANE: That is correct.

MR LEWIN: Please explain to those of us who don't know how radios work, police radios work, I want to contact you or you want to contact me on the radio, how does that actually happen. 

CAPT KEKANE: It happens when we use one channel. If he wants to contact me we have to use one channel. If he wants to speak with someone who has got a different channel he

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will have to change his channel to that person he wants to contact. 

MR LEWIN: And who has access to that channel, I mean who could hear when you are talking to him and he is talking to you can anybody else hear?

CAPT KEKANE: Except the policemen, nobody else. And except the fact that the channels are between the two of us, nobody else can hear.

MR LEWIN: So who would have known that Lieutenant Fourie was going to meet you at that particular T-junction? Who else could have known? 

CAPT KEKANE: Nobody else would know, it was myself and himself. 

MR LEWIN: How do you think he was killed then?

CAPT KEKANE: I do not know how was he killed. 

MR LEWIN: Do you think it was a pure accident?

CAPT KEKANE: I do not know, maybe he was under surveillance. Maybe they were following him but I do not know but he used to attend their meetings.

MR LEWIN: Who is they? Sorry, can you explain.

CAPT KEKANE: He used to go to meetings with policemen to be the security at the meeting. It doesn't mean he was part of the meeting. He used to be there to keep observation for the people attending a meeting.

MR LEWIN: Yes, but you have spent some time telling us how 

there was an incident that you wanted investigated, you spoke to him and he was going off to investigate that. So he wasn't at a meeting.

CAPT KEKANE: That is correct.

MR LEWIN: So how long was it between the time that you spoke to him and made the arrangement to meet at the T-

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junction and when you actually arrived at the T-junction itself? 

CAPT KEKANE: I think I took 15 minutes. 

MR LEWIN: So he wouldn't have had time to go to any meeting in between.

CAPT KEKANE: No, he wouldn't be in a position to go to any meeting because when we talked he said to me when I arrive in Seobuswa I will contact you and he said after an hour I will be at Seobuswa and I will contact you. Leave Denalton, go for the place of the meeting.

MR LEWIN: So if he was not being under surveillance from people at a meeting have you any other ideas for how people would have known that he would get and wait at that T-junction?

CAPT KEKANE: I don't think there was anybody who knew that we were going to meet. This was just an unexpected incident. 

MR LEWIN: But you knew.

CAPT KEKANE: What did I know?

MR LEWIN: You knew that he was going to be waiting for you at the T-junction.

CAPT KEKANE: Yes, I knew that he was going to wait for me.

MR LEWIN: In the investigations that have taken place subsequently has there been any theory put forward as to who was responsible for this attack?

CAPT KEKANE: I do not know who might be carrying the responsibility of killing him. 

MR LEWIN: You have no idea yourself?

CAPT KEKANE: I don't have an idea.

MR LEWIN: Thanks, Mr Chairman. 

MR ALLY: Captain Kekane, I just have two or three questions

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please. What reputation did Lieutenant Fourie have amongst his police officers and in the area? Was he a popular person, unpopular person? 

CAPT KEKANE: Are you referring to the police themselves or the community?

MR ALLY: Both.

CAPT KEKANE: They all loved him. But within the police force everybody loved him except Masiza. 

MR ALLY: This incident happened at night when you phoned Mr Fourie and you set up a time to meet him. 

CAPT KEKANE: I didn't set the time. He set the time. And I didn't ask him to come here. 

MR ALLY: But it was at night.

CAPT KEKANE: Yes, it was at night.

MR ALLY: Is that unusual? I mean you have a situation where there is unrest, it is ten o'clock at night or nine o'clock at night, and to do an investigation at that time of the night.

CAPT KEKANE: We were used to such activities but it depended on the person in charge. There was a night duty police who I wanted and he said no I will personally come. It was our usual thing.

MR ALLY: Having driven up and down this road to Denalton in the last few days the T-junction that you are talking about is a fair distance from where people live. There are some shops and a taxi rank on the one side, on the other side there is very little, if I remember rightly. So in your drive through to meeting Mr Fourie was there any unrest taking place in any of the townships along the way?

CAPT KEKANE: There were no unrests on that day.

MR ALLY: Thank you very much. 

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DR RANDERA: Captain Kekane, thank you very much for coming and for giving your understanding. There is just one thing I want to ask you which I would like you to corroborate. When you made the arrangement to meet did either you or Lieutenant Fourie indicate that you would be able to recognise him because the blue light on the police car would be on. Was there any visible way that you were going to recognise him when you got to the spot? 

CAPT KEKANE: Are you saying would I be in a position to see him on the spot when I approached?

DR RANDERA: That is correct, yes. Was there a suggestion that he would put on - he was in a police car, not so? And that he would put on the police light, the blue light of the police car.

CAPT KEKANE: But I don't know, it wasn't necessary for anything because I knew his car. 

DR RANDERA: No, I appreciate that. I am asking whether, because it was at night. I know that you knew his car. Was he going to have any light on or was he just going to wait for you and you would come and you would recognise his car?

CAPT KEKANE: I would be in a position to see him because he was going to park the other side of the road and I would come approaching and I would see that there is his car parking. It wasn't necessary for him to maybe light a blue police van. It wasn't really necessary.

DR RANDERA: So when you arrived there, it was dark and there as no light shining in the car or no light on or anything like that. 

CAPT KEKANE: No light was on. Let me put it this way. I don't remember any light that was present, even his headlights were not on. 

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DR RANDERA: Thank you very much, Captain Kekane for

volunteering to come, to speak to us. We really appreciate it and as I said to Mrs Fourie we will see what leads we can follow and if we do find out anything I am sure you would also be as keen to want to know. Thank you very much for coming. 

CAPT KEKANE: I also want to know what happened really and I thank your office. Thank you very much.

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