&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE: 26.11.96&#9; NAME: REUBEN MANDLA MALIBE

CASE: TEMBISA

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MS SOOKA: Mr Malibe we would like to welcome you to the proceedings of the Commission today. We have asked Mr Hugh Lewin to assist you with your story. Before you begin I would like to ask you to take the oath please.

REUBEN MANDLA MALIBE: (sworn states)

MR LEWIN: Mr Malibe please feel relaxed, you are amongst friends. We are very grateful to you for coming today. We believe that you are now a teacher, is that correct?

MR MALIBE: Yes that's correct.

MR LEWIN: Can you hear me, I mean is it all right if we speak in English?

MR MALIBE: Yes you are audible enough.

MR LEWIN: Fine. Basically what you are going to tell us about are incidents that took place in 1976 and thereafter arising from the 1976 student protests. If you could please in your own time and in your own words tell us about those incidents and then if there are any further questions we'll ask them. But as I say please feel relaxed and take your time. What you have to tell is not pleasant. As I say we would like to welcome you. This is not an easy experience for any of us. Take your time and let's hear your story. Thank you.

MR MALIBE: I was arrested in 1976. I was a young student involved in the boycott of Afrikaans as a medium of instruction in Black schools. I was arrested in November 1976. I was taken to Rabasoto by three policemen, two 

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Whites and one Black policemen. The two White policemen were in camouflage uniform, the uniform worn by the soldiers. We were beaten. I was with a friend when we were arrested. We were beaten up with fists, slapped, kicked. However, we managed to lie our way through and we were released after a brutal torture on that particular day. 

&#9;Then again I was re-arrested in 1977 where the gruesome torture took place. I think it was somewhere in September if I am not mistaken. One of my friends had skipped the country and because I was no longer sleeping at home I would come just to have my supper and go to my hiding place. On that day they came earlier than usual, at around sixish, it was at about six, they got me. When they took me home they put me in the car with them. There were two White policemen, and when we reached the corner in my street they put me in the boot of the car. They brought me to Rabasoto Hall. When we got at Rabasoto we didn't go to the charge office, we came round and then we went to the first floor. It's a small room. They told me to take off my clothes. I undressed. They took me to a shower. After that they handcuffed me behind my back. They started interrogating me about my activities at school and why we were resisting to be taught in Afrikaans. They used their flamboyant language when I answered them, "kak". 

&#9;They started beating me. Beating me on the face with their fists. Slapped me on the ears from time-to-time. As I was naked then they beat me with the sjambok all over the body. I started bleeding and they beat me on the toes with the sjambok, the toes now. 

&#9;Thereafter the question would come in the same manner and when I answered them they used their vulgaric language, 

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and once they say "kak" you'd know that they had come for you. They used a canvas sack-like, you know put on my face. They wet it first and then they put it on my face and then covered it on the bottom. I would be unable to breathe. Eventually I suffocated and urinated on the floor. When they realised that I was just becoming unconscious they took it off and asked me whether I was ready to tell the truth. I told them what I told them. 

&#9;The beating continued just like that for many days that came. The worst part that I could not just forget is when they locked me into the strongroom. They have a strongroom. They put me in this strongroom. I believe I was there for three nights. I would say three nights because during the day I would hear people passing by and I would assume it's night because it would be very quiet. At that time I was naked and my hands were still handcuffed. Before they took me into the strongroom he actually, this White guy, probably it's the Coetzee, he tightened the handcuffs on my arms and I told him that they are too tight. He used his language again, the "kak". Then they threw me in there.

&#9;After three nights he came, probably he was looking for something because when he opened the door, the strongroom door, he got scared of what he was seeing. Then he started punching me violently. Okay. They took me out again and continued with their torture. While I was there they brought in some Indian guys. They were Police I presume. The senior Police who was in charge ordered them to beat me, and it was funny because it was like they were practising karate on me. They were kicking me, standing like that with my hands behind my back. Kicking me on the body, then punching me. And he would say "Moor hom, moor hom", you

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know just like that, as if he was in a trance. Eventually I fell down and then he took the sjambok and just beat me all over.

&#9;Then they left me there. After three to four days they would come back, and I think it was the seventh day I was very hungry I had no food you know. They left me in that small room, here at Rabasoto, so I would just crawl into the toilet and drink from the toilet sink.

MR LEWIN: Take your time Mr Malibe.

MR MALIBE: When they came that following night they were drinking coffee and these koeksusters. The junior of these White guys said to me, "is jy honger"? I did not answer. He said you have been here for several days you should be hungry. "Soek jy die missus' se koffie?" They had their flasks. So on the windowsill there was a cup for coffee that they were using to put cigarette butts and cigarette ash you know, he took that, did not even wash it with the cigarette butts and the ash he poured the coffee there and said to me "drink die missus' se koffie" and then he gave me those koeksusters. I had no choice. I drank and ate that poison.

&#9;On that particular night they took me to their girlfriends. I don't know where that was because every time when they transported me they put me in the boot. They were playing Radio 5 for me in the boot. When we got there I was bleeding on my back because they used the sjambok to beat me on the body and ears and I realised that I was bleeding through my ears. When we got there they called their girlfriends they came out and they took me out of the boot. They said "hy is een van die terrorist, ons het hom gevang". Well one of the ladies could not look at the sight of me. 

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She went back and the other one they hugged, they other couple just stood there and hugged in front of me. And that was the situation that I was faced with.

&#9;The other part that I nearly left out is that during this interrogation there were severe moments. I remember at one stage he wanted the information about a certain guy who stayed next to my place, Brunsa, ja Brunsa. He just wanted Brunsa very much. He said that was the biggest terrorist he wants. And then I could not give them an answer. I knew Brunsa but he was not a friend to me and we are not close associates, so he started hitting me, pulled me by my private parts, the penis especially, then realising that I was not answering him well then he used a plier. He pulled me using the plier and then started nipping my testes with the plier. There was nothing that I could give him except that. Then eventually - that was continual, it would happen, they would come and go until I think 1981 when this harassment subsided. However, I could not take it out of my mind. Every time I see people testifying on television about the torture they have suffered at the hands of Police and that they were stripped naked I knew exactly what happened to those people. That's how far I remember my statement.

MR LEWIN: Mr Malibe thanks very much for telling us that gruesome story. If I could just clarify a few points. When you were first, this first detention in '77, when you were finally released were you seen by anybody, did you go to a doctor?

MR MALIBE: Yes because I was bleeding through my ears I went to the late Dr Gwele who treated me and asked whether I want to open a case. I told him that I could not because 

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those people threatened - the world was far away from me. I had no contact with anybody. It was only my torturers that I had contact with.

MR LEWIN: And at no stage were you ever charged with anything?

MR MALIBE: Eventually when they said that they will come to me from time-to-time they just took a statement from me. I thought that they will take me to court. They never did.

MR LEWIN: I mean this last incident that you tell us about where they loaded you in the boot and showed you off to their girlfriends, was that '81, that was the last time that they treated you ...(intervention)

MR MALIBE: No it was somewhere in '78 I think, because they would actually take me for a month and then keep me for two weeks in their custody then release me and tell me that they will be coming again, and if I disappear my family will suffer the consequences. So they threatened me that if I can just disappear they will actually take my family and I saw that they have that capability. Because I remember they even promised me to work for them. They actually tried to bribe me that they will provide me with a temporary job as I was a student then. This probably it's the Coetzee the senior policeman who was in charge, he even gave me R25,00 that if I see any of the former students and anyone who has left the country is back, I should report to them. So they will provide me with work at Cullinan. Of course I took the money.

MR LEWIN: At the time you were a student, can I just confirm you were 18 were you?

MR MALIBE: Ja, I was.

MR LEWIN: And you were at school?

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MR MALIBE: Yes I was at school.

MR LEWIN: In Tembisa?

MR MALIBE: Yes. 

MR LEWIN: Okay. Were you actively involved, you talk about the boycott of Afrikaans were you actively involved?

MR MALIBE: Ja I was actively involved in these things.

MR LEWIN: With other students?

MR MALIBE: With other students. And one of my friends actually left the country, he is now in Canada, he is living in Canada right now.

MR LEWIN: And when you were brought here to Rabasoto were you on your own, did you see other people at all? Was the same thing happening to other people?

MR MALIBE: When I was in this room, the interrogation room, I would hear other people crying nearby. They would tell me that you hear - during the interrogation there would be other people crying and they would tell you do you hear that scream, you are going to be the next. I remember during the interrogation a young guy about 14, he was younger than me, he was brought in there, and then as they were beating me they said that he must pull my private parts and they did that because they - probably he was crying so I thought that he was beaten on the other side.

MR LEWIN: And can you identify - you have identified three of the people, three of the Black policemen ...(intervention)

MR MALIBE: Certainly I can. Pat Vilikazi, you know in 1991 I was assaulted and to open a case here at Rabasoto he was in the charge office. He remembered me, it surprised me.

MR LEWIN: In 1991?

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MR MALIBE: Ja. He remembered me. He just greeted me and said are you still staying at Moyane. You know I was perplexed that could this guy remember, if he does then he still remembers all the gruesome acts that they did to me. And the other one has retired, I think it's another Vilikazi, but I see him. And Mr Shongwe, it's another Black guy who was there. The others I could not remember, the Coloureds and the Indians I could not remember them because they just come for that day when they come to beat me up.

MR LEWIN: But did these people actually take part in the assault on you?

MR MALIBE: These, the Pat Vilikazi's, no they did not. They were interpreting, because at some stage when we were communicating in English Coetzee this senior policeman would say it's no more time for English, but you know because of my resistance I obliterated everything in my mind, I could not speak Afrikaans well. So they had to interpret. It's only one guy who is not here who actually one time slapped me because I said things that he could not comprehend quite well.

MR LEWIN: Mr Malibe you also mentioned being hit on the feet, on the toes particularly, did that leave any permanent damage?

MR MALIBE: No it did not. They were just sore, because they were continually hitting me.

MR LEWIN: And can you tell us how you coped afterwards. You had been a student, then can you explain how you got to be a teacher?

MR MALIBE: Ja I had a very serious problem with my studies and they actually barred me from participating in any activities, that I shouldn't even take part in the 

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Student Representative or being a class rep except if ever I am working there, if ever I joined one of these organisations that would be existing, then I have to report to them.

MR LEWIN: Where did you then take your teacher's courses?

MR MALIBE: I took it in Soweto. When I came to Soweto we established the SRC but I played a lesser role because our Rector wanted to know why I don't participate fully, I told him that I could not, I have personal views.

MR LEWIN: And are you still politically active now?

MR MALIBE: No.

MR LEWIN: Mr Malibe thank you very much. I will pass you back to the Chairperson. Thank you.

MS SOOKA: I am going to ask the other Commissioners if they have any questions for you.

MS MKHIZE: You know it's clear from your statement and from what you have said that you went through a difficult time during your detentions, can you just tell us whether you ever received counselling for the experiences you had while you were in detention?

MR MALIBE: No Ma'am I have never had, and it is actually killing me now because from time-to-time when I see people who have been or are in the situation that I had been in, I always sob. It hurts.

MS MKHIZE: I mean you have been a student, you have qualified as a teacher, surely there have been guidance teachers, is there any reason why you have not tried to get counselling of some kind?

MR MALIBE: Maybe I am too negligent, I don't know, because my wife has actually suggested that I should go for it, but I haven't yet done it.

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MS MKHIZE: Maybe it might be a fear of exposing yourself to pain and suffering, but I should think it is important. But then just in relation to your statement, partly as a Commission we have got to assist in the formulation of policies to make sure that the things that you have spoken about are not part of our history again. If I may ask you what advice or what do you think should be done to help today's security officers to make sure that in dealing with people who are suspected to be dangerous to their government they are not treated in a manner in which you were treated?

MR MALIBE: First of all I think our policemen and women and especially those who are in Intelligence they have to have a manner of approaching their fellow man. Because let me sight one example, when these policemen came at my house they would knock on all the doors and windows and they would not identify themselves and still even now some of the police are still not doing that, they don't identify themselves. I find that they actually hamper the relationship that should exist between the people that they are serving and themselves. Because if a policeman comes into my house and he says I am Detective Sergeant so-and-so it actually brings confidence in me that this man is not going to hurt me, he is not going to torture me. You see this man is friendly. He is going to render service to me. MS MKHIZE: One last question from me, you indicated that you are not involved in politics anymore, but do you think the school has a role to play in terms of establishing the culture of human rights? If so what particular role do you think you in particular can play?

MR MALIBE: Pardon, can you repeat your question please?

MS MKHIZE: You indicated that you are not actively 

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involved in party politics, so my question to you is do you think you as a person do you have any particular role which you can play especially in a school setting where I suppose you are actively in the promotion or the establishment of the culture of human rights?

MR MALIBE: Ja I think the school has a prominent role to play. We are the pinnacle of teaching, and I think if we, not necessarily conscietise the students, but make them aware of the political situation, despite that we have a democracy in place the political situation they have to know what is happening you know in their lives. I think teachers who are the ones to assist in that role. We have a very, very important role to play. Like for instance let me just elaborate a little bit, like for instance right now in Tembisa is engulfed by misunderstanding between the councillors and the residents in general. We as teachers we have to tell our students why we should pay rent or not pay rent. Our students have to understand and go back and tell their parents who are semi-literate, and some absolutely illiterate, the reasons behind this.

PROF MEIRING: Just two questions Mr Malibe. The one is just to complete our records. You are married, your wife is sitting next to you, how many children do you have and what ages are they, what are they doing?

MR MALIBE: We have two children. One is ten and the other is six.

PROF MEIRING: They are at school I presume?

MR MALIBE: Yes definitely they are.

PROF MEIRING: Where are you teaching yourself? At a secondary school or primary school?

MR MALIBE: I am teaching at a high school.

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PROF MEIRING: Which high school is that?

MR MALIBE: It's a beautiful high school at Maukeng, Todokimatla High School.

PROF MEIRING: And the last question, when Mr Mabena was on the podium just now he talked about the possibility of a special day of reconciliation in Tembisa where the victims and the perpetrators may be brought together for reconciliation, do you think it will work? Do you think that's a good idea?

MR MALIBE: I fully concur with Mr Mabena. It would work wonders especially for the perpetrators because they are the people who have to come forward and show repentance to a certain extent. And definitely as a Black man I think we are forgiving and certainly we are just going to forgive these guys. We are living with them and we are just going to accept them.

PROF MEIRING: Are you willing to forgive the people who did these atrocious things to you?

MR MALIBE: Certainly yes, because I think if these things, if I have not revealed them to all the audience that is here, and to all the people that are here they would keep haunting me as they are doing everyday in my life. But if ever the perpetrators themselves even reveal more, some of the things that we have not known could not have come out, the truth will just die like that. But since they are coming out, telling the public then it's better. Though it is so difficult to forgive such gruesome acts, however, we have to take it as it has come.

PROF MEIRING: Thank you very much. Those were my questions.

MR LEWIN: Mr Malibe if I could just ask you one last 

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question. This has been a very difficult experience for you and you said in your initial statement that you had a specific reason for testifying to the Commission because you felt that it might make things better for you, how do you feel now?

MR MALIBE: I feel a little bit relieved and I feel good inside and I hope it's going to change for the better. Because many people know exactly, you know as a teacher my former students, one of them is here, next to me, thought that as teachers we were not actively involved in Umsabalas, they didn't know that some of us came far. Some of them who are here in this hall today will know that not all of us that were inactive, were activists. However, we were neutralised by threats of the system.

MR LEWIN: I would just like to commend you for having come here and thank you very much.

MR MALIBE: You are welcome.

MS SOOKA: Mr Malibe could you tell me whether at any stage after any of the incidents that had happened to you you pressed any charges against the policemen concerned?

MR MALIBE: No I could not do that because I knew that the case would not go anywhere. They told me, these guys, that they have the law in their hands, and I believe that, because they would take me anywhere. One incident that I did not mention, could I just mention it, is that at one stage they took me to Modderbee Prison and when I was there they had arrested another man from Daveyton, so they brought this guy and they put us in the same cell, then they put dogs in the same cell with us, the Police dogs. So seeing that I knew that if you take them to the Police which Police are going to charge them because they are the Police.

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MS SOOKA: The effects of all of this on you, the torture, the hitting on the soles of your feet, the sexual harassment and torture as well, has that left any lasting effects on you?

MR MALIBE: Yes I think so because it re-surfaces from time-to-time. I haven't found a way to deal with it thoroughly. Yes, it does.

MS SOOKA: Thank you very much for telling us your story. I think we are struck by the generosity which you extend to those who have done this to you, that both you and the witness who testified this morning indicated that a special day should be set up where both perpetrators and victims can come together. It is very important I think in our country for us to see and end-goal, and while no one can force us to forgive there is a generosity that the country has extended to those who have committed these acts in the granting of amnesty, if they come forward and they make full disclosure so that at least we can learn about all that they have done. Unfortunately although we have received more than 3,000 applications we have still not received the applications of those who were in fact the authors of the kind of violence that took place and we urge people to make use of this opportunity. You yourself have in fact survived the '76 riots. You have survived the State of Emergency and today you are in fact a teacher and someone who has an influence on the young minds that we are cultivating in this country which we hope will have a future which is free of the kind of violence which all of us grew up under. 

&#9;We thank you for your courage, and we thank you for coming today to share that with us. We hope that some of the comments that you have expressed we will be able to do 

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justice to. Thank you, both you and your wife.

MR MALIBE: You are welcome.

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