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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION
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&#9;TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

&#9;HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS

&#9;SUBMISSIONS - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

DATE:&#9;26.07.1996&#9;&#9;NAME: NOMSA MBELE

CASE: &#9;&#9;&#9; SOWETO

DAY 5

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CHAIRPERSON: It looks like Romola is not here as yet, and so I will take the opportunity of calling Isabella Mbele to come forward and take the stand please.

&#9;Mamma, can you hear me, are you comfortable?

MRS MBELE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: When you talk then you must press the red button and when you are finished, please switch it off. All right? Before you begin to tell your story, I would like to apologise that we did not take you yesterday. It was because we were running quite late and you were not able to come through on Wednesday when we should have taken you. We are, however, able to fit you in now and we are sorry that you had to wait yesterday. 

&#9;Before you begin, will you stand, please, so that you can take the oath. Stand, please, Mamma. Can you hear?

ISABELLA MBELE: (Duly sworn, states).

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated.

&#9;Mamma, as is usual, we ask a Commissioner to help you with the telling of your story and Commissioner Mkhize will be taking you through your story. Thank you.

MS MKHIZE: We welcome you, Mrs Mbele. I will kindly ask you to explain to the Commission who are you and what is the relationship with the child you are here about.

SOWETO HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;2&#9;I MBELE

MRS MBELE: I am Isabella Mbele. I am here about my child who got lost, so that the Commission might help me find this child. Because I tried to look for the child, I never found the child.

&#9;When the child left, I may say right from the beginning, the child was arrested, when he had gone along the way, he had been arrested. They told me that the child was arrested. After the child was arrested in 1977, he spent so much time in prison and he was released in 1979. After he was released in 1979, in 1982 he got a job. He worked there. In 1982 he disappeared, he got lost on September 14th. A certain boy came looking for him at home. &#9;Late in the afternoon when he was coming back from work. He took off his trousers and put he on old clothes, and he sat outside. A certain boy came looking for him. I asked him is he not outside. He said no, he is not outside. Then the boy said I am going to look for him. This boy is Masai Mpisa. As he had gone looking for him, when he found him, he did not bring him home. He left for quite some time and it was late and we slept. 

&#9;The following day, in the morning I woke up and I went to this boy. I asked him where is Andrew, because it is time that he should go to work now. He told me that he didn't know where he was, he had left with some other boys.

&#9;On Thursday when he disappeared, on Tuesday. Then on Thursday they left and went to the Orlando police station to report this matter. Yes, I reported the matter and the police refused me to make a statement. I went to see the station commander, telling him that my son has disappeared. The station commander said to me I shall go down and give a statement as someone who has lost a child. 

SOWETO HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;3&#9;I MBELE

&#9;I went to try and give the statement, but the policeman refused until I left. After I had left I went to Priscilla Jana to report the matter, that I cannot find Andrew and that I had been to the police station to report this matter. But they did not take my statement. Priscilla Jana said she was going to write a letter to the station commander to ask him, enquire about this. Yes, Priscilla Jana did write. 

&#9;I got, I received the response, that the station commander is there that this boy cannot tell us the whereabouts of Andrew. I went to the station commander again. When I got to the station commander, to find out that he had found this boy, but he cannot tell me what kind of information it was. After a time I told myself I won't go there again. 

&#9;The police came. This was in 1983. The police came at night, around one. When they came they asked where was Andrew. I told them I don't know. Then they took Andrew's ID, they left with it. 

&#9;After that again another group of policemen came, two of them, White policemen. They had three pictures, photos. When they got to me, they asked me where is your son here, I did point my son, but they never said a thing, they left. &#9;They came again one day, there were two of them. They still had those three pictures. When they got to me with those three pictures, they asked me again can you show us your son here. I did. I discovered that my son's face with a black something. I said but this is the one. Still, they never made mention of the fact that they have found him or not. They left.

&#9;After that I never heard one thing. The police yes, used to come. The last time the police came to my place,

SOWETO HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;4&#9;I MBELE

was in 1990, January. They never came again to my home.

&#9;One thing that is so painful is that he had a son. I am left with his son, my grandson now. I don't even know what to do with the situation. Even the mother of the son left, but came back. When she came back, she does not take care of the child, and she is working, she is employed here at Protea. She is giving me no help whatsoever. 

&#9;Now this is my concern, that please help me to find out if my son is still alive or dead. If I could know that, I can rest in peace.

MS MKHIZE: Thank you very much, Mamma. I will ask you a few questions, so that your matter can be clarified. Then I will hand you back to the Chairperson Yasmin Sooka. 

&#9;In your statement you say there was a boy who came, by the name of Hoosai Mpisa looking for your son, the day when he left. Can you explain how well you know this boy.

MRS MBELE: Yes, I have known this boy for quite some time because he was a friend of my son's. He used to come to my place. I know even where he stays. Even now I see him once in a while, and when he sees me he will greet me and laugh at me when we see each other. He hasn't told me even now what happened to my son. Yes, he is around. The number is 2167 Orlando East.

MS MKHIZE: From your knowledge, do you know if he was a member of any political organisation in the period 1976 to 1979? Was he arrested because of politics or what?

MRS MBELE: I wouldn't know, because it looked like they were attending the ANC things, but I didn't know at the time.

MS MKHIZE: At the time when he disappeared, would you happen to know if there were - did you report this matter

SOWETO HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;5&#9;I MBELE

to any political organisation leaders, that probably he associated with?

MRS MBELE: No.

MS MKHIZE: From your statement you also said an attorney Priscilla Jana assisted you. Did you explain about Vusi to the attorney? Did the attorney try to talk you about that?

MRS MBELE: Yes, I did explain. She also called him and Vusi said he didn't know, he just left with other boys.

MS MKHIZE: Now that you are here at the Commission you also said Andrew had a child and you will appreciate if you could get some aid or help. What else would you require the Commission to help you with regarding the grandchild? You also stated that you would like us to help find your son. Is there anything else you would like the Commission to do for you? There are people who don't know their whereabouts, but finally we will be helping their families to see if they have disappeared or are dead and help the families to bring them back and bury them in a proper way. Maybe you think also this, we would be grateful to you.

MRS MBELE: One thing that will definitely be of help to me, I really don't know what would be of help to me, because I think what would be of help to me is that I have been looking for him. If only I can know what happened, I can appreciate it.

MS MKHIZE: We thank you. I will hand you over to the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mamma, can I just ask you a few questions. In your statement you said that in 1977 Andrew tried to leave the country. Is that correct?

MRS MBELE: Yes, it is true.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened when he left?

SOWETO HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;6&#9;I MBELE

MRS MBELE: After he had left the police came to tell me that he was arrested in 1976, sorry, 1977. 

CHAIRPERSON: In your statement you also say that he was jailed in Modderbee prison. How long was he there? Mamma, in your statement you say that Andrew was jailed in Modderbee prison and spent something like 22 months there. Is that right?

MRS MBELE: (Indistinct - microphone switched off).

CHAIRPERSON: Mamma, can you hear me? There appears to be a problem with the translation services. Mamma, the question that I asked was, in your statement you say that ni 1977 Andrew tried t leave the country and you said that that is right. You then say that the police came to tell you that they arrested him and I then asked the question, in your statement you say that he was taken to Modderbee prison and he was kept there for 22 months. Is that right?

MRS MBELE: It is not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Mamma, I am going to ask Hlengiwe to ask you that questions directly, because it appears that there is a problem with the translation.

MS MKHIZE: We will go back to Zulu - are you tuned into the Zulu channel? 

INTERPRETER: The speaker cannot hear.

MS MKHIZE: Can you hear, Mamma? She wants you to explain about the time when your son was arrested and said to Modderbee, did you ever pay him a visit? How long was he kept at Modderbee?

MRS MBELE: Yes, I did visit because they did take him to Modderbee, they did inform me, and I went to visit him, until he was released in 1979. There at Modderbee.

MS MKHIZE: As you explained to the Commissioner Yasmin

SOWETO HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;7&#9;R D M RAGOO

Sooka about the police who came home to talk to you. Can you remember, will you recall?

MRS MBELE: Yes, I remember now, as you are asking the question. Two people came. Those people came and said they had to get a statement. I asked them who are you, and they said they are sergeants from Brixton. They got the statement, I gave them the statement. They asked me for his photo, his picture, his picture which they took. After that the boers came driving a Kombi. I asked the police what's your name, he said I am Landman from Brixton. After that they disappeared, they left quite a time, up until the time when I went to Brixton to ask. They told me that they did not know any police by the name of Landman. I left the whole thing like that, I never went back to ask again.

MS MKHIZE: When you say Landman is the name, what was Landman's name? Somewhere Charlie Landman, who is Charlie Landman?

MRS MBELE: He said he is Landman, that is his name.

MS MKHIZE: At the time when you say you went to see him, visit him at Modderbee, arrested at Modderbee, did he say perhaps why he was arrested?

MRS MBELE: No, he didn't say.

MS MKHIZE: Did the attorney help you to explain to you when you were just talking to the attorney, did the attorney explain to you why he was arrested?

MRS MBELE: You mean the lawyer? Yes, the lawyer ended up saying he was never found, even the lawyer did try to look for him and said no, we cannot find him, but if there is anything that I will hear, but I never heard anything. So I even now I have heard nothing.

MS MKHIZE: When people went to Shell House, going for their SOWETO HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

&#9;8&#9;N MBELE

 

matters, did you ever go to Shell House?

MRS MBELE: I did go to Shell House, to find out and ask. They went through their records, if they could see whether he escaped from the country. They said to me no, his name was not appearing anywhere.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mamma. I will ask Hlengiwe to thank you for coming to give your evidence.

MS MKHIZE: Mamma, we thank you very much for your coming. You are one of those mothers who went through difficult times, sleeping, not knowing where their children were; whether what happened to their children, whether they were dead. It is difficult. In your case you have such a wound, but we will try all we can that you finally get the truth about your son and we will try and help you to do the appropriate thing. Thank you, Mamma.

APPLAUSE

 

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CHAIRPERSON: We will now break for tea for 15 minutes and resume at quarter past 11.

COMMISSION ADJOURNS

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SOWETO HEARING&#9;TRC/GAUTENG

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

